Hi everyone!
Perhaps it's time for a new summary before I dive into thread 5? Personally, I get overwhelmed by the length of some threads here and completely lose track. That, and I think you will see that my summary today has a different tone than when I first came here. So I am going to try and keep it short and brief for you. Then I would like to address some of the posters that I didn't get to yet on my last thread :-)
My name is Bluwave, however I sign my name "Blu." Why? Mostly I like the sound of it and it's easier to remember. Some posters' names are a cluster of numbers and letters, and I cannot recall who is who. Also, I love, love, love water and the ocean especially. The beach (any beach really) is my safe & happy haven. This journey of DB really has been like a wave--up & down, crashing or cruising, sometimes rough, and sometimes even smooth, even if only for a short while. For me, the end goal is down, cruising, and smooth.
So somewhere after many years M, kids, and life's hardships, things got to be more than we could manage. I can't even pinpoint when it started because I was blinded by love and adoration for my H. In our circle of friends I became increasingly uncomfortable with his "friendship" with OW. My instinct knew early on, but I didn't know for many months. We argued more and more (creating a greater divide) and she pursued in a parallel fashion. My H being king of the Nice Guy Club did not have boundaries with women at all.
So they carried on with this ea with kissing in the park (typing that actually made me LOL at how foolish they were and how embarrassing it should be for them. Sigh). My father was dying at the time so my judgment was clouded. My instincts knew early on, and my disdain for her was growing rapidly in an indescribable way. She would use the kids to see him, sign him up for things, text him often, and even come to my house (or have him over) without me. I would call him out often and he would listen, agree to cut her off, actually cut her off, yet he acted oblivious to my concerns. I had nothing to hold on to, so I just felt crazy. The worst part of it was H of course and his actions. The mental abuse/torture as H was gaslighting me for months, and while I was grieving, I still find appalling. I will never in my life trust another man (H or anyone) over my own internal voice (even if I don't understand it). Lesson learned!
So official BD happened 3 years ago. These dummies got caught hanging out at the park (that story is too glorious and really should be an after school special). After several weeks of me doing all the wrong things I kicked him out (thinking he wouldn't go). He did. And then OW left her H and they began to start their real fantasy R together. Turns out that was just a lot of drama, but despite trying to leave, he was totally sucked in for about 10 months.
Meanwhile I was struggling, as were my kids. I was a mess. A disaster. It breaks my heart to think of what I went through and how my family and friends all struggled (including OW's H, who is a friend). I found DB book and site and read often. This site (and the vets) got me through so many dark days. I am forever grateful for all of you. It took me a long time to be able to apply the principles tho. Finally I did; I dropped the rope and started to plan a life without him. He very quickly did a 180 and came back. Was it what I did or was he turning around anyhow? I can't say for sure, but maybe some degree of both.
So he has been back for over 2 years--MC for 1 year, a lot of hard work piecing, and recently we attended Retrouvaille. That is where I am at today. I think right now my success lies more in my own growth, strength, and detachment than from saving my M. That is still a work in progress. Either way I know I will be fine in this life with or without him.
That was longer than I meant for it to be! Sorry! ... I will be back soon to address the previous posters.
Blu
Thread 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670289#Post2670289Thread 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677578&page=1Thread 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688297#Post2688297Thread 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712057&page=1Thread 5:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745868&page=1
Lately I have started some new GAL hobbies, so I have not been here as much. I do wonder at times if reading/writing here keeps me held back, and then other times I find it healing. I just glanced at what I wrote above and I noted two things: 1. I still see myself as a victim in the situation (DB), and 2. I still blame OW a lot. Maybe I need so shift my thinking? What do you guys think? Perhaps these mindsets keep me held back a bit.
Blu
FROM DDJ ON 5/24:
"Beautiful BluWave. This will definitely give hope that a M can survive an affair. Love, if you see my post, is a strange thing.
But what is a real choice, is one to never give up, never let go, always holding on to what you have, even if that is not someone physical, but hope. They say that faith is a belief in things that you cannot see. I saw a sign the other day that said that "belief is not faith, knowing is faith". And I have to agree.
If you believe that your M will survive, then there's a good chance it will. However, if you know it will survive, then nothing can stand in your way. You will be that lighthouse, calling the other one home, even if the beach is foggy and it's raining. Two hearts that were meant for each other will always return to each other...
I'm a hopeless romantic... aaaargghhh"
DDJ, thank you for this. Yes, I recall you are quite the romantic. I wish my H had just a little bit of that going on. Nope, nada, not gonna happen. ... So knowing is stronger than believing? So knowing is faith, and belief is not? Hmmm, I was thinking that belief is faith and knowing that leads to choosing, so ultimately the choice is what will get us there. My thoughts and feelings still cycle so I have to keep making this conscious decision to make the right choice... My head is spinning a bit now :-0
Blu
25, I was reading your post to me and was wondering if you have ever thought about writing a book? You have detailed so much here about your M, your life, your struggles, and the words just pour from your finger tips. With each post, I get another glimpse into your thoughts and feelings. If you wrote a story, I would buy it :-)
I could never marry a doctor. I work with a lot of them. While I like and respect most of them, it is also a lifestyle that makes it difficult to have a family, or more so difficult to prioritize family. I actually completed premed courses in undergrad and then decided not to apply to med school. I already had one child at that point, but felt like to be successful (or even gain admission), I needed to give so much of myself. It is a continual effort, and if the effort is not put forth, you will quickly fall beneath your colleagues. The ego becomes fragile in this world. I don't know if it's possible to ever separate work from personal life.
I haven't stayed caught up on your thread, but from what I know, I do wonder if you would be better suited to find a partner in life as generous as you are. He will be responsible for his relationships with his kids, but they will always have this awesome, dependable mom. My mom had 3 Ms, however I am not sure she found true love (compatibility) until she was in her 60s.
Blu
Storm & Henwen, I will reply later, I just noticed the time and gotta run! :-)
Blu,
I just read your comment to Lim, with your "advice" and then your explanation of what you would do. Just had to let you know what a great post it was. As I'm sure you know, even though I knew what I should do, I often did things quite the opposite because "I just needed to".
I completely empathize with Lim, how could a spouse, who truly has remorse, see an AP as anything good after the devastation their A caused to their spouse and family..
But your response got me wondering, how hyper sensitive the A has made you towards him doing things us guys seem to be wired to do. For example, if you overheard him and a friend commenting about a cheerleader at a game, or if you saw him staring at a "hot girl" nearby. I get the hypersensitivity towards the AP, but do you find that bleeds towards general comments? I'm just trying to wrap my head around how much a WS has to change for successful piecing, or at least to avoid pouring salt on old wounds.
Hey C-nut buddy,
Thanks for stopping by:-) I am pretty honest that I was no expert DBer, and I am still not. Getting better tho that's for sure. I sympathize with Lim too. If I thought in any form my H had feelings or attraction for OW, that would be a deal breaker. I just know myself. He has regret and disgust for both her and himself. It's hard enough given that it happened, but if it still existed in any form, I think I would lose all attraction for him.
I don't think I have any jealousy issues or hypersensitivity regarding H and his attraction to other people. He is also not the type of guy who goes out, meets new people, or even engages in men's activities. He spends his free time with the kids, family, tinkering in the garage alone, and he likes to take long bike rides. In fact, quite the opposite, I think it would be more attractive if he were more social or out-going. All of his friendships (and relationships with women) have been other people pursuing him. Even when I met him, I felt like he was attracted to me, but I had to make it very safe for him to ask me out, etc.
My current struggle is I fall into feelings of apathy and loss of interest in general. Someone recently sent me an article, which outlined the Four Horsemen of relationship destruction/failure. I realized I have been guilty of all four. We have had some disagreements lately and fallen off the Retrouvaille wagon and admittedly I don't have motivation to get back on. I haven't shared many details, well, because I guess my mind has been focused on other things.
Most of you here are caught up in this whirlwind of emotions and fear of losing the M. I have my M, yet sometimes I feel like I would rather just be on my own. What frightens me is the apathy at times.
Blu
It can be challenging after an affair. When we fall in love with our spouses, one of the reasons, at least for me, is the kind of person that our spouse is. Mine was kind, generous, smart, LOYAL, HONEST, caring, funny, etc.
After the affair I can't say that she's a loyal and honest person because quite frankly, she wasn't. During that time she showed me she was capable of horrific acts of cruelty to me. She crushed my heart.
Of course she responded to my DB'ing and came out of "the fog." She is all better now and wants to have that close bond we had before. She realizes what a gem that is to have in the world we live in today.
Well, here's the problem. I can't fully give her that again. She hurt me too bad. I can go to therapy from today until doom's day and I'll never trust her like that again. Why not? Because I know what she was capable of doing. It would be like me hiring a paroled child molester to babysit my kids. Sure he got counseling and is all better now but would you trust him around small kids? Nope.
I've been reconciling a few years and we are still married but honestly I'm just not feeling it like I used to. I've announced that I want a divorce and am probably going to move on. One thing that the DB program taught me is that I don't need a spouse. I can be just fine on my own. When they told be to detach, GAL, and move on, I did. I didn't fake it. I really did it. I detached from a person who hurt me worse than I've ever been hurt in my life and you can't just re-attach after something like that.
I'll add to this:
One night my W and I went out to a local bar. Things were ok until I eyed a very attractive woman for about 3 seconds. My W saw it and was pretty hurt. Now, this was about 6 months after BD. Turns out we were BOTH hypersensitive about anything even remotely having to do with infidelity. My W was funny about ME on the phone, worrying if *I* was up to shenanigans. There was a lot of waxing and waning for the first year. Like, one time I snapped at her for joking around about dating one of her clients who was clearly ugly and a disaster in the fashion department. She said, "if I was his date, I'd spruce him up". This INFURIATED me!!!! But pre BD, that comment wouldn't bat an eyelash. I'd laugh and move on, accepting that yes, this guy IS a terrible dresser and looks like he's chronically hung over.
So that's where we went with that. God, how I remember a time where my W and I would walk along the beach and she'd never have a problem with me looking at someone in a bikini, because in her words, "you always come home to me". Now? Totally different story. I miss those days.
I kinda feel the same as you now, Blu. I have it all. She's into me, texts me a lot now....more often than not she initiates sex. But see - the other day we went to the gym and I saw this guy who looked exactly like OM - bigger than me, bald, muscular - I think of him being over my wife, owing her, and my mind went south fast. I couldn't get out of the funk, couldn't leave the gym, and it enveloped me. I'm tall and lean and not very muscular and this just ruined me. What did he have that I didn't? The questions hit fast and furious and I had that thought: Is this was the rest of recovery will be like? Because I'm in a MUCH different place than I was last year and I'm a different person. I don't want daily reminders of what happened.
Could my W be that trigger? I've overcome so many fears in this last year, that the fear of losing my W still looms. What if I need to lose her to truly move on?
Or, as I said, am I really overthinking all of this again? I will admit, Saturday night truly sucked. Yet, Sunday morning and most of the day seemed really good. Yeah, I thought about her affair, but it didn't have that punch-in-the-gut feeling it usually does.
Maybe I need another year.
I know I'll never trust anyone else 100% ever again. So - do I leave her and find someone new, only to never trust them, or stay with someone I've known for 30 years and never trust them again?
That's the crux of it all, trying to find that innocence that once existed. I will just share my place on the otherside (not piecing). Just to recap my story, I realized one night, my WW had distanced herself from me, I spent the next month trying to fix things. Month later BD, emotional A with kissing, I saw texts. Spent the next 2 months with her saying she was committed to M, but couldn't go NC due to both being volunteers at Fire dept. 2 months after BD I found out still in contact and that a mutual friend wanted to go out with Ww and meet this OM, I was done at that point, took 2 more months to sell the house and S. 4 months after that I moved out of state, haven't spoken since...
Is it better than the daily struggle of trying to piece, I dunno, but is a hell of a lot easier than in house separation.. I'm doing good, I worked the hell out of GAL, and now do lots of things that I love, but those could be done even if I was still with ex. Not having to work through issues with the WS is great, but sometimes during the downtime the house is too quiet, too much being alone. I miss the good times, feel hurt/anger when I replay specific conversations or acts of betrayal during our sitch, but I don't have any memory (it never happened) of remorse, I never got an apology, she never said she would do whatever she could to make us work.
In all, I think moving on is an easier path, you get to focus on self and only have to work on you, not on self and couple... But I think I would of preferred seeing/hearing remorse and trying to come together to build something going forward...
I guess my point is neither path is easy, both have their challenges, but knowing that WS regrets what they did would be my most sought after reward for having to suffer through either path.
I also think being ready to open up to someone new, and starting a new R will improve many of the "bad" times I experience, but I'm just not at that point yet, and not willing to rush it.
TxHub, it's hard for me to read your posts. What you describe is what I am afraid of. It makes me terribly sad to think about this happening. I have made the decision over and over to make this work, and I know that I can, but my heart often doesn't line up with my head. My H is a very good man and father. I still miss how I used to feel about him. It is the A, and our ugly separation, and this fear that I will never feel the same way about him that mainly holds me back. There are these little things about him that I don't like (as we all have) that are harder and harder to see past too.
Storm, I'm sorry buddy. I will also never fully trust another person. I don't see that as a bad thing though. We can still be vulnerable and open to love, while being realistic and protecting our hearts. I think before I missed the second piece. I will say again though, it does get better with time. Everything in life usually does, no? One of the many things that made me hopeful during Retrouvaille were the many Angel Couples that have been there before. They have been through it ALL--heart break, betrayal, and devastation. They have worked hard and committed themselves to their M and all agree the love now is better and stronger than before. They describe that this healing together creates a bond that is far more valuable than the initial years of romance/love. I hope that is true ...
C-Nut, I remember your story so well. I don't know why exactly, but I admired your character and honesty in this process. I was sad when you moved on, but also completely understand. I think some of my sadness for others is because of fears in my own sitch. I do often wonder what my life would be like if H and I D. I know I could have a beautiful life on my own. I like my independence now more than ever before. My sitch is complicated also due to children and finances. I would be foolish and selfish for several reasons to separate right now. It's hard to even explain.
There are several things that have come up recently that I have not shared. As I have said before I know that OW XH is here on the boards. I have still shared openly and honestly but there are some details I tend to leave out. Right now I have some things I would like to talk about and ask for advice on, but it feels awkward to do so without him admitting it is him. I am not sure if that makes sense.
I wish I had more hours in the day to read and post.
Feeling kind of blu today I guess.
Henwen & Resolut, I will check out your threads and post there :-) It's very hard to stay in a loveless M. That is something we all have in common to an extent.
I am in this new and somewhat confusing place. Things are at a standstill. Not sure the best path to take. I think it's better to not make any decisions for now. I know it can't stay like this though. I wonder if I just need to resign myself to being in a M that simply functions. We can get the job done. As for all the other stuff that we hope and dream of, well that will take the back burner for now. I don't know. I don't have the bandwidth for this right now. I can't force it. And there are so many other things and people that feel like a bigger priority. It's strange to even feel that way.
Blu
BluWave,
You've probably heard this and it probably doesn't help and is anecdotal, but I read a thread on another site by a really amazing poster who talked about his W's MLC and return. He said it took something like 3-4 years for his feelings to return once she recommitted. He expressed the same kinds of things that you are in years 1-2. I can imagine that with all the detaching the LBS does to survive these situations that it can take a long time for them to reawaken as well.
Thank you, OwnIt. That helps to think about. There is always more time. When I find myself wanting to do something (anything), I soon realize that none of it will be of benefit. That would just be me reacting out of hurt or anger.
When I read other posters and their fixation on their S--everything they do, say, their intentions, the mind reading, etc--it pains me. I wasted so, so much time on that. It doesn't change anything and it certainly doesn't help healing or moving forward. If anything it exacerbated the resentment towards H that I now need to work through.
The thing is, even if I have the returned and remorseful H, I still have all of the baggage that built up over the years. Even though we may have talked and worked though some of it, most of it, that doesn't mean the past is erased. The forgiveness piece is incredibly complex. Something holds me back. These days I don't want either option in front of me.
Blu
Hi Blu! I haven’t read your older threads but it’s nice to hear you’re piecing and on a solid path to rebuilding things! Congratulations!
My H is a very good man and father. I still miss how I used to feel about him. It is the A, and our ugly separation, and this fear that I will never feel the same way about him that mainly holds me back. There are these little things about him that I don't like (as we all have) that are harder and harder to see past too.
My ex never cheated on me while we were married, but my GF (after D) did early on. Even though we were not (and still are not) married, we had discussed it before the incident and agreed to only see each other. The feeling of betrayal is incredible, and it makes it so hard to ever trust that person again. I broke up with her but she begged and pleaded and said it would never happen again. We’ve been dating almost 3 years and I STILL don’t trust her because of that incident. Every time I see a chummy photo on Facebook or something it just makes me wonder if she’s at it again. I’ve heard so many people say they don’t know how they can ever trust their cheating spouse again, and now I get it! It’s very difficult to regain trust after that.
I will also never fully trust another person. I don't see that as a bad thing though. We can still be vulnerable and open to love, while being realistic and protecting our hearts.
I agree. We don’t have to build a full height wall but I think it’s only natural to build a partial height wall, and maybe it’s for good. I don’t remember ever reading a sitch here where someone was going through a 2nd BD in a 2nd relationship. Why? Well hopefully it’s because we become better spouses, but also I think it’s because we do tend to guard our hearts a little and maybe a 2nd BD isn’t a bomb so much as a firecracker or water balloon.
of the many things that made me hopeful during Retrouvaille were the many Angel Couples that have been there before. They have been through it ALL--heart break, betrayal, and devastation. They have worked hard and committed themselves to their M and all agree the love now is better and stronger than before. They describe that this healing together creates a bond that is far more valuable than the initial years of romance/love. I hope that is true ...
I’m glad y’all were able to go, it’s a wonderful program! My ex was too far out the door by the time we went, but it was an awesome learning experience, and very emotional!
Right now I have some things I would like to talk about and ask for advice on, but it feels awkward to do so without him admitting it is him. I am not sure if that makes sense.
Maybe create a new handle and post under that one without disclosing you’re the same person as this one?
Blue
Please check out Esther Perels' TED talk on infidelity and healing from it. She has done a lot of empirical research. Written books on it too.
Of the couples who remain m after an A, there is a chunk who believe their m's are better, but they are different m's to the same spouse.
Also, here's a free tip --- do Not let the follow up classes for Retrovaille drop off, please. It's very important.
Don't wait to feel it first and then do the work; do the work and then you'll feel it.
make sense?
More later
((( )))
PS
thanks for the " do some writing" feedback. I'm on it...!
Hi AnotherS,
Thanks for stopping by :-) Yes, the betrayal part is hard to get past. I have tried to tell myself tho that if this M doesn't work in the long run, it will not be because of that one hard time. It will be a less emotional, and more logical, decision. That's hard to do because his A (and leaving me for so long) weighs in on my thoughts, feelings, and decisions. It's just there.
Unfortunately, I would not say we are on a solid path. We were. Things have changed a lot in the last several weeks. I am thinking more about separation. So much has happened and it's getting hard. I have moments where I wonder what it would be like had he not come back.
I have no doubt that XOWs XH would know immediately who I am, even if I changed my name. My story is obvious because there are not many posters that are where I am today, with piecing. I think most posters come here during separation. I think for that reason people pay attention. I don't have anything to hide from him (or anyone really), it's just awkward.
I will continue to share freely. Just feels like a neighbor peaking in the window, but I leave the curtain open anyhow. lol.
Blu
25,
I have watched that TED Talk several times. I find it depressing. Maybe I am a hopeless romantic, but I like the idea of someone only having eyes for me. I am so monogamous in my thinking, so it's hard to understand. That also makes the forgiveness piece more complicated for me.
I just cannot see or understand how people moving through peicing, after an A, and working through this type of betrayal can have a better M than before. How??? Is that true? Have I just not given it enough time? I liked what we had before and who I thought he was.
I know you are going to tell me "no" because Retrouvaille is on the back burner. No, I have not finished the post sessions and right now I don't even want to. I have been thinking more and more about separation. Everything has changed in the past several weeks. Even having had that genuine and solid glimmer of hope does not motivate me.
I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like had he never come back. And it's not that I don't think it COULD work, it's that I don't know if this is what I want anymore.
It is starting to feel as if too much has happened, and too much has changed, and I ask myself "why?" Why am I so committed to this man and this M? I don't say this out of fear, anger, or emotions. I just have been thinking lately about my life and what kind of person I want to share it with. I don't know if he is that person.
So after the betrayal, all those little things that didn't matter so much, now have me thinking second, third, and fourth thoughts about him.
The things have that have been coming up (big and small) just feel like deal breakers. They are telling about fundamentally who he is. Or are they? I can't say right now. I can't.
So here I am--the one that has the returned and remorseful H, and honestly I question it all. The only thing that gives me pause is that I understand that decisions take time. Big decisions deserve time, processing, thinking, and then a little more time.
I am not in a good place right now...
Blu
25,
I have watched that TED Talk several times.
I find it depressing. Maybe I am a hopeless romantic, but I like the idea of someone only having eyes for me. I am so
monogamous in my thinking, so it's hard to understand. That also makes the forgiveness piece more complicated for me.
I think I do understand this^^.
My h swore, quite convincingly that he 'never cheated." That mattered to me b/c I felt we were both fundamentally loyal to each other even with conflicts.
And even as I see mountains of evidence to the contrary, a part of me still believes him...
Because I want to, and b/c I was faithful to him (though sorely tempted earlier in the m).
There is a crack in the windshield and fears that it will shatter in my face. I'm not sure how I'd get past that if I were in the situation.
OTOH the things I did wrong in our m are things I never would have expected me to do and I'm not positive how h sees those flaws.
(Actually I'm positive he sees them as glaring justifications for his behavior, come to think of it). 
Anyhow there are 2 videos/TED talks of hers, but the one I saw made me believe some couples could get past an A and create a deeper connection, and even thrive.
I will not say if I could be in a restored m like that, a lot would depend on the circumstances & underlying crap, & his accountability, etc. I'm saying her research shows it can be done. I don't believe every success story is lying to her.
I just cannot see or understand how people moving through peicing, after an A
, and working through this type of betrayal can have a better M than before. How??? Is that true? Have I just not given it enough time?
what have you tried/read done?
I liked what we had before and who I thought he was.
well, that guy went away and in his place is another guy who is a lot like your h,
Turns out, The h you idealized is actually very flawed. Like a lot of us.
Do you Want the idealized superman who may never have been real,
or the human man in front of you, who also happens to be the father of your chldren and shares a lot of history? I know you are going to tell me "no" because Retrouvaille is on the back burner. No, I have not finished the post sessions and right now I don't even want to. I have been thinking more and more about separation. Everything has changed in the past several weeks. Even having had that genuine and solid glimmer of hope does not motivate me.
I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like had he never come back. And it's not that I don't think it COULD work, it's that I don't know if this is what I want anymore.
It is starting to feel as if too much has happened, and too much has changed, and I ask myself "why?"
Why am I so committed to this man and this M? I don't say this out of fear, anger, or emotions. I just have been thinking lately about my life and what kind of person I want to share it with. I don't know if he is that person.
okay...I hear this^^. Question - what if you sep and then there is no other man in your life from this day forward? Is being alone better than being with the father of your children & with whom you have so much history? Or do you have someone else - real or fantasy - in mind? What if he is your only option?
I don't ask this^^ as a woman who hates being alone. I ask this as a contemporary & supporter of yours.
So after the betrayal, all those little things that didn't matter so much, now have me thinking second, third, and fourth thoughts about him.
The things have that have been coming up [b](big and small) just feel like deal breakers. They are telling about fundamentally who he is. Or are they? I can't say right now. I can't.
not super clear...so, for example....are you saying the little "semi selfish" or thoughtless things he did before, that you were willing to accept - on the whole - now seem bigger? Not worth it?
OR are there some other negatives you once would let slide, that now are accumulating and or are you seeing more of them?
So here I am--the one that has the returned and remorseful H, and honestly I question it all. The only thing that gives me pause is that I understand that decisions take time. Big decisions deserve time, processing, thinking, and then a little more time.
I am not in a good place right now...Blu
((( )))
One - anecdote that may resonate. Years ago a friend was at a workshop with me. (The EE workshop as a matter of fact). Her name is Carol and she had lost a young child some months earlier. Yet she seemed sort of "at peace" for lack of a better phrase.
I was 6-7 months pregnant at the time, & Carol's loss was utterly terrifying to me.
I finally admitted that the idea of her beautiful life being "all ruined' by the loss of a young child was too much for me to comprehend. It was beyond my ken.
But Carol is one of those Zen people who seem to have such resilience and inner contentment that I just liked being around her. Yet I was so uncomfortable, I had to ask her how on earth she was dealing with it.
I said that to me, her loss would be like a beautiful painting that someone had thrown red paint on and now this painting, i.e. her "Life", could never be beautiful again. Not with that horrible stain.
So she turns and says "Oh I see life more like a tapestry. Up close you can see the stains and frayed threads, or you can see all the textures and variations woven in,
But when you step back you can still see that on the whole, it's quite beautiful."
Maybe your m is a tapestry, Blu.
This makes me sad, not because I'm worried about you, i know you'll be ok, but because I know how dedicated you are to making it work... Not because you need to, but because you want to.
How can a M be stronger after an A? I'm no expert, but I'll give you my thoughts on it.
H & W going through M, experience the normal ruts in a M without having the tools that are available to learn how to communicate, relying instead on the fantasy belief that M is for ever, the "innocence of their S", and just suffer through daily life not knowing how to make things better.
Then, BD. Whatever process used, they end up getting back together.
Through the piecing process they learn tools to communicate, learn to be happy on their own and to share in each other's happiness, and know how to bring up issues and work together to find solutions, compromise, and feel like a team.
They find happiness and strength in the M becaus of their mutual accomplishment of working through things.
Sounds great right? But what if what you want in a M is the fantasy, you want more than anything to have the innocence? No amount of communication or teamwork can bring that back... Some people just want the fantasy back.
Not every M comes back stronger, many try, many fail, the survivors are stronger because they prefer the communication than the fantasy.
I may be way off, but just my uneducated thoughts. Blu, whatever happens, you have tried, you've made yourself vulnerable, stronger, and have compromised. I really wish the best for you, whatever the best looks like for you.
I have been thinking more and more about separation. Everything has changed in the past several weeks. Even having had that genuine and solid glimmer of hope does not motivate me.
I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like had he never come back. And it's not that I don't think it COULD work, it's that I don't know if this is what I want anymore.
So after the betrayal, all those little things that didn't matter so much, now have me thinking second, third, and fourth thoughts about him.
The things have that have been coming up (big and small) just feel like deal breakers. They are telling about fundamentally who he is. Or are they? I can't say right now. I can't.
So here I am--the one that has the returned and remorseful H, and honestly I question it all. The only thing that gives me pause is that I understand that decisions take time. Big decisions deserve time, processing, thinking, and then a little more time.
I am not in a good place right now...
Blu
I'm so sorry, Blu.
If its any consolation, I feel exactly the same way lately.
My W had an event recently where she up on a stage. Everyone complimented me on how beautiful she was. How lucky I am to have her. She even praised ME in front of hundreds of people. Told an entire crowd how she wouldn't be where she was if it wasn't for me.
And I loved it. I felt great. Except for when I got home and started feeling dull again. Like I'm here for HER, not for ME.
I mentioned to my IC about how bad I've been feeling. He said its very typical for PTSD, how the event doesn't bother you at first, but then later, the thoughts, the images - the thought of her kissing OM never entered my mind when I first found out, but now it wakes me up in a cold sweat.
I have what everyone wants, a remorseful regretful spouse that now treats me like a king. But that innocence is SO gone. I said to my IC, "if I ever imagined us splitting, it would NEVER be about infidelity - hell, I'm so flirty at work sometimes that I worried about ME - but I always thought it would be about money, raising the kids differently, religion (my wife is religious, I am not). Now that I know she's capable of cheating, it just ruined everything"
The sad part - I don't think I'll ever trust anyone ever again. So, do I go on staying married to the person I will never trust, or find someone else that I will never trust?
Plus the fact, I still regret the bad therapy I had - the stupid IC and MC who both said it was ok for my W to continue working with OM. I wish I had balls enough to stand up back then and force the issue, at least I'd respect myself more.
Damn this. I finally have the marriage I've dreamed of. But at what cost?
BUT - this is not all doom and gloom. I will keep trying and keep trying. I know of people that HAVE recovered several years later. Lots of people. I desperately want to stick this out. I do have more good days than bad. Its only been a year and a half. Next year may bring more good days. I'm not getting any younger, but I'm getting better. Perhaps a shot at Retrouaville, maybe another MC down the road.
My IC says I need to still process this but he's positive. We know its ME with the problem now. My W wants to help, but she readily admits she doesn't know how. But at least she's honest.
I admire people who can just move past this like it was nothing. Its forgotten about and never discussed again.
I wonder how Txhubby is doing, too.
25,
Thank you again for your timely and thoughtful reply. (as you can see I still am terrible at the use of quotations) Okay so maybe I need to find this other Ted Talk. The one I saw highlights how common infidelity is. I find that depressing. I have had friends tell me "at least you know everything," or "I would not be surprised if there were things about my H I didn't know. I wouldn't want to know that!" Why does that make me so sad? I feel like this little girl who wants to believe in love, which perhaps has some very unrealsitic ideas interwoven in there ... then again, I know people that have what I consider to be a love/monogamy/respect that I DID have. I just don't anymore ...
Her research does show that. You are correct. It can be done. Our MC also told us that not everyone can get through this. All these years later and I still don't know if I am that person. I said for all those years that this was my only deal breaker ... and here I am. I am trying to convince myself of something that I never saw as possible. So you ask what have I done? Well I was in IC, we went to MC, we both have read a couple books, we attended Retrouvaille (but have not completed), and the most obvious, which is reading/posting here. Not sure I can list the books here, but I have found them to be good and helpful.
You tell me the H that I idealized is flawed. You are correct! I would say more than flawed tho. The behavior was extreme tho, wasn't it? Even my nonemotional, more logical, brain has trouble wrapping my mind around how a person can do what he did. He lied to me for 8 mos, had an A with a "friend" and then picked up and left me for her for 10 mos. This was right after my father died. During that time my bipolar teen went downhill in a severe way--running away, drugs--and I had to send her to treatment out of state for 1.5 years. It still blows my mind what I went through. How can you say you love a person and turn your back on them in that way???
So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids," and it doesn't go away. So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.
Do I have someone else real or in fantasy in mind? No. Not at all. I was alone when I met H, and even had a child, and I think I would have been okay. I am not afraid of being alone. I also think I would meet someone else eventually. But I can't afford my lifestyle, community, kids' schools, and what I provide for my kids if I were alone. I also know it would tear them up if we split. I watched it happen! So basically I am stuck right now anyhow.
Is my M a tapestry? I don't know. I can't see clearly. I think I could see both perspectives when I shift my thinking a bit. Like I said, I am not in a good place. His mother died a few weeks ago. I recall you saying how when your H's mother died, that something changed. ... I loved my MIL so, so much. She was a wonderful grandmother. And as different as we were on the surface, we are also pretty fierce in the same ways. Her H did the exact same sequence of events as my H, just several years before--had an A with a friend, left her for the A, was severely depressed, came back--and her son (my H) was her main support! Then this jackhole does the same thing to me just 5 or so years later. Crazy? Or expected? I don't even know.
So my H has been saying how I am a wonderful support for everyone in my life except him. So here he is grieving the loss of his mother and he feels alone. I should feel more compassion and love for him. I don't feel that way. Perhaps that makes me bad person ... I keep thinking about how I wasn't even able to be present for my father during his death because of the constant gaslighting during Hs A (when I didn't know). And then my father died. A couple mos later the A came to light. Then he left me. ...
People say to leave the past in the past. I get that. I am not dumb. But I can't. It doesn't feel right. None of it feels right. I can't seem to get my logical brain back in the drivers seat these days. I went on a long walk somewhere beautiful today to clear my head. By the end of my walk I was seething with contempt towards H and all the things he has recently said and done that has rubbed me the wrong way. ... this does not a marriage make ...
I feel triggered. Stuck. Suffocated. Good news is I know these feelings won't last. They never do. Time. All I can do is self soothe. Shelf them. Think. More time. Have I shared too much? Perhaps. Don't have much else to lose at this point. So what is the take home message folks? You may get your S back. But this chit is HARD :-(
Blu
Blu,
Today is "I'll be honest" day for you, right? LOL
I just responded to you over on my thread, but wanted to encourage you here on yours, and to once more thank you for your refreshing self-disclosure.
I know this board is more about those of us here alone, hoping and praying for a spouse to return, but for those who may be here in your situation, I can only imagine what a huge validation your words are for them. Both hurt and joy are so much better when shared.
((((Blu)))))
C-nut,
Thank you. I feel sad too. You are correct tho--when it comes to finding tools to work through things, because otherwise we wouldn't ever need or find them, and perhaps the M can just go on blindly. I like to call these silver linings. They are there, but we have to allow ourselves to see them.
The thing is, the piecing process is not all that fruitful. It is a lot of 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. It takes a lot of GRIT! I have to exercise constant self restraint because the triggers come and my primal self wants to grab a spear and charge! I have never raised a finger at anyone, but there is this overwhelming sense of pain/frustration that is indescribable. I can't open the tool box when these things hit. I just have to wait.
You see, it was not just the fantasy or innocence of H that I want back. There was an element of respect and trust too. I see so many wonderful qualities in him, but without those there is nothing right?
You say that even if this doesn't work, then I will be better than before. Well, I guess that is up to me isn't it? I don't want to be a victim and just look at his mistakes. He told me in an argument last week that if I leave him, I will eventually look at myself and regret it ... ummmm what?... He hurled that in anger, but I guess I should think about that some more ...
Blu
Storm,
Yes! I am right there with you! When I read your posts, I find myself feeling the exact same way. I can imagine the feelings of love/pride you felt for your wife and then just moments later the reality of the sitch (the A) smack you upside the head. It's like snatching candy from a baby. And there is the part deep down that feels this love/connection that has always been there ... but then we remember that is gone. So if that is gone, then what is this?
I will never trust another person either. So recently we were with a big group of friends and I had this moment. Like I said OW was a so called friend for many years. She had this very flirty/floozy way about her; I didn't understand the EA for a long time because she was like this with all men. I call it "hiding in plain site." I have another friend who is also flirty by nature. The difference is that this woman has a moral compass and I trust her as a friend. When we were all hanging out (and I have seen this before), her and my H were giggling about something. Totally innocent. However the affect on me is different. He could not be any less attractive to me in those moments! Repulsive.
I think you should give Retrouvaille a shot. We were in the best place we have been in doing that program. Perhaps we will get back to it. Not sure today tho. ... You know as well as I do tho that so much changes that we have to keep being openminded to what will come next ...
Keep posting :-) I need you.
Blu
Blu,
I wish I had something to offer you, but I don't. You've come further than I will have the chance to. You've lived through things that I hope I never have to face. You are obviously a strong and compassionate person. You will make the right decision for yourself.
(((leah)))
I am sorry if my post was hurtful. I do try and be direct & honest with what I see and think. I don't like to sugarcoat things or fart rainbows. That is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg. Just know that I am as screwed up as everyone else here :-) Look, my H is what we are all seeking and I am trying so, so hard not to be that WAW. ... But I got nuthin but love for y'all. I have no other reason to be here, truly.
Blu
Blu
I will start with the anecdote I wrote earlier b/c I DO know how to use quotes and colors!
One - anecdote that may resonate. Years ago a friend was at a workshop with me. (The EE workshop as a matter of fact). Her name is Carol and she had lost a young child some months earlier. Yet she seemed sort of "at peace" for lack of a better phrase.
I was 6-7 months pregnant at the time, & Carol's loss was utterly terrifying to me.
I finally admitted that the idea of her beautiful life being "all ruined' by the loss of a young child was too much for me to comprehend. It was beyond my ken.
But Carol is one of those Zen people who seem to have such resilience and inner contentment that I just liked being around her. Yet I was so uncomfortable, I had to ask her how on earth she was dealing with it.
I said that to me, her loss would be like a beautiful painting that someone had thrown red paint on and now this painting, i.e. her "Life", could never be beautiful again. Not with that horrible stain.
So she turns and says "Oh I see life more like a tapestry. Up close you can see the stains and frayed threads, or you can see all the textures and variations woven in,
But when you step back you can still see that on the whole, it's quite beautiful."
Maybe your m is a tapestry, Blu.
So now let's look at your post...
[quote=BluWave]25,
Thank you again for your timely and thoughtful reply. (as you can see I still am terrible at the use of quotations) Okay so maybe I need to find this other Ted Talk.
The one I saw highlights how common infidelity is.I don't disagree, but here are 2 thoughts on this^^. First, I'm not sure if they count someone who has had 2+ A's as 2+ cheaters or as one, and
Secondly - a one night stand or a fling for a shorter time than your h had, counts the same as a long term repeat cheater.
I don't see that quite as black and white.
- I feel like this little girl who wants to believe in love, which perhaps has some very
unrealsitic ideas interwoven in there ... then again, I know people that have what I consider to be a love/monogamy/respect that I DID have. I just don't anymore ...
how do you know what these other people have? I mean, honestly? I think you want a time machine to go back to what you had or think you had.
Dear God Blu if you do find a time machine, let me know.
Her research does show that. You are correct. It can be done. Our MC also told us that not everyone can get through this.
choice+ effort ^^^All these years later and I still don't know if I am that person. I said for all those years that this was my only deal breaker ... and here I am.
I am trying to convince myself of something that I never saw as possible.
this^^ resonates with me. I had boundaries and they were crossed, and I found DB. Maybe I just wanted a way to stay and not feel degraded or foolish.
OR maybe I was smart and loving (as a mother and wife) to put my ego & pride aside, to examine what really truly mattered to me and our family. To keep us intact.
I'm not sure I was right to stay back 10 years ago. Maybe I should have filed and started over at age 47 instead of 57, though there were financial benefits to my kids to staying m. (Discounting the possibility of me finding a great job or financially helpful new h)
I am not sure of my past choices, but I know that regretting them too much now will not help me or my kids. -
-
You tell me the H that I idealized is flawed. You are correct! I would say more than flawed tho.
The behavior was extreme tho, wasn't it?
yes it was Blu. I am not going to minimize it. I relate. The fb posts of how HAPPY h is and how me met the "love of his life" are cruel behaviors I'd never ever have imagined h doing. If your h can explain it to me, I'm all ears.
Makes me grateful that h is in Alaska, so I don't have to deal with the "hi everyone!!" factor...
You are being very challenged. Even my nonemotional, more logical, brain has
trouble wrapping my mind around how a person can do what he did.
I have said these ^^ exact words to my T. She said to "stop putting a rational spin on irrational behavior."
Maybe there's an "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality. ??
He lied to me for 8 mos, had an A with a "friend" and then picked up and left me for her for 10 mos. This was right after my father died.
During that time my bipolar teen went downhill in a severe way--running away, drugs--and I had to send her to treatment out of state for 1.5 years. It still blows my mind what I went through. How can you say you love a person and turn your back on them in that way???
if you know my "updated" story you will recall that I filed after h left for the tundra, just days after I was released from the ICU for a weird sudden neuro problem that has changed my life (though temporarily I'm pretty sure). It was terrifying and I was impaired. And my mom had died and last child was off to college and some other things happened so that I was at my weakest. And neediest.
D19 was a troubled teen, has been arrested and assaulted since...
So this&^^^^^^ sadly resonates with me a lot. So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids,"
and it doesn't go away.
why won't it go away? I'm asking.
So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those
other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.
Sorry Blu but I'm still not clear on this^^^. Are they small flaws or big faults or what?
I love the analogy of bandwidth, but are you saying that you cannot allow this many frays on the tapestry or what?
As for bitter scorned woman...OKAY so if you leave him, what will you be? I mean down the road
do you envision a life of peace and contentment or what? Are you like Diane Keaton on Something's Gotta Give, where she lives on the ocean in a beautiful home and writes,
or are you making sure your kids know it's still their dads' fault or what?
I do think fleshing out some details of what you envision is a good idea for you.
Know what your options really truly are, as a day to day life.
- I can't afford my lifestyle, community, kids' schools, and what I provide for my kids if I were alone. I also know it would tear them up if we split. I watched it happen! So basically I am stuck right now anyhow.
IF THIS^^^ IS TRUE - then what's the question? Is my M a tapestry? I don't know. I can't see clearly. I think I could see both perspectives when I shift my thinking a bit. Like I said, I am not in a good place.
His mother died a few weeks ago. I recall you saying how when your H's mother died, that something changed. ...
actually both our mom's died a few years apart. H's mom got sick and died after we recon and we stopped piecing. She was not a big part of our lives. She was an emotionally unstable but kindly woman, whom h loved but he also did not seem to want to live near her...
When my mom died, something shifted in ME and I knew another "let's go to Alaska" ordeal was not something I had in me. It was supposed to be "my turn" now in life. All those moves for h and none for me...I could not do it again and face my kids OR myself.
Life is short. Losing my mom was a big fat deal to me. Horrible. It reminded me of that brutally. I could not subsume myself into h's dreams and discontentment and chronic restlessness anymore. I loved him, I was committed and loyal to him and our m, but a part of me would die and not return if I went, again. Still, I would not have filed for div, had he not betrayed me when I was sick.
BUT my h wasn't like your h is acting. My H was behaving exactly the same as he had been a decade earlier like all the "growth" had been fake or he simply went backwards...
I loved my MIL so, so much. She was a wonderful grandmother. And as different as we were on the surface, we are also pretty fierce in the same ways.
Her H did the exact same sequence of events as my H, just several years before--had an A with a friend, left her for the A, was severely depressed, came back--and her son (my H) was her main support! Then this jackhole does the same thing to me just 5 or so years later. Crazy? Or expected? I don't even know.
I'm tired of hearing about the cliched parallels between spouses & parents. It does not have to be!
My h's bff Dan, is among the best husband's I know. Dan had 3 sisters and they had a terrible father figure. Dan's dad left the family to marry pregnant OW.
Dan's was 9 watched his dad marry OW and then saw that marriage end, Shockingly. Of course now there was a half brother for Dan, as well.
then his dad married wife #3. He treated his third wife in a crusty mediocre way b/c he refused to look within and change HIM and
so W#3 left him - 17 years after the first marriage and family broke apart.
Dan's role model %ucked. But overall, I see Dan as the best h and father I know. I love his w too. Long time friends of h and mine.
Point is, the cycle can be broken.
FWIW, Dan and his w have 3 grown kids all happily married. Their 2nd grandchild is on the way. They all seem stable and happy and when I saw the photo of their family at the ocean, 3 generations
I and realized where Dan came from in terms of HIS role model, the cycle he broke AND the legacy he created,
I'm awed, and envious.
How about you?
more later
Ownit,
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the encouragement. I am open to your feedback and advice. You obviously are a smart woman and quite level headed; I agree with your feedback to others as well.
I want to get caught up on your sitch. I started reading your threads (in addition to 25s and several others) but I cannot keep up! Between work and kids, I don't have enough hours in the day! Do people actually read every post in a thread or just glance over? Maybe I should just skim through and not read them word for word.
Blu
25,
I am very grateful, and also slightly overwhelmed, by your post so I am going to tackle it piece by piece without any fanciness--just my simple and honest answers!
In regards to your anecdote and my messy M tapestry: so what I think you are saying is the stats around infidelity are not clear (black and white) because we don't know how it is measured. Plus, and pretty obviously, are people really honest about it? Ha. NO! So here is my glass is half empty response (because I am a total pessimist): if infidelity is very common (which I gathered from the Ted), well that depresses me because I am forced to accept that people don't value monogamy in the way I do. Are there less people in the world that are trustworthy and loyal? On the flip side, if her data on infidelity is skewed and it is far less common that I thought, well then that bums me out because my H is more of a dirtbag than many other men. It's just a lose-lose anyway you spin it.
Regarding the time machine: I am working on it with toothpicks and tinfoil, and I'll let you know what happens. So no, I can't go back in time. Sigh. I would if I could though. I liked what we had before. I don't mean right before BD--things were going sour, I just didn't see it--but back by a couple years. I can only change now what I probably needed to change then, and I am still working on it, but I don't think I needed this level of disaster to look inside myself. I mean, maybe we could have went to MC? Or separated? Don't say it, I know, I can't go back in time.
How do I know what other people have? I am not referring to what I see when walking down the street or on social media. I am talking about real people that I know, or that have shared with me, that have good Ms. I didn't say perfect, never perfect. But I have several friends that genuinely love and trust their spouses, have mutual love and respect, and are both overall content with the M. I also meet so many older couples that have been married for decades--20, 40, 60 years--and truly love and respect one another. I ask them the questions. They tell me. (people tend to open up to their nurse about all things personal) What I find is that most long term Ms have not had large conflicts or betrayals. They just work. I had a patient today tell me he had been with his wife 38 years and they rarely ever argued. I mean, I can't ever know what life is like for other couples, but I honestly believe the chit that I have dealt with is pretty extreme.
OR maybe I was smart and loving (as a mother and wife) to put my ego & pride aside, to examine what really truly mattered to me and our family. To keep us intact.
I don't know. Sigh. Truly, I don't. ... Like I said, if for so many years of my life this A went against my belief system, and now I have compromised it to stay, then I have to better understand why. I have heard the argument "don't stay for the kids," and I have heard, "there is no better reason than to stay for the kids." They both make sense to me. For me, I don't think ultimately that would be enough for me. I want something more than that here. I want to feel as strongly about him now as I did and know I can. For me that means learning to forgive, trust, and respect.
Yes, I want to put a rational spin on irrational behavior and I cannot.
(getting increasingly overwhelmed by the length of your post, head is spinning, losing track ...)
lol. I need a break ... I'll be back ...
Blu
25,
When you share your story of H abandoning you in your most vulnerable time, it pains me. Ultimately the reason we even get M is to have a partner we can depend on when life gets rough. It sounds as if he has not been available to his kids in their times of need either. And he is simultaneously boasting about OW as the "love of his life?" It's unbelievable, unnerving. How can you not wonder if taking him back 10 years ago was the right move? You can't tho, because that is passed. As you say, you did right by your family and there is more honor in that than walking away.
That being said, if you could predict the future and tell me that my H would do the same thing in 10 years, then I would walk. I would find a new way of living as a single parent and make the best of it.
There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence. Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.
I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation. I don't see my H as a selfish or arrogant person. He is actually quite easygoing, kind, generous, and perhaps sheepish at times. He is not a go-getter. He stands back, observes, and then goes with the flow. I think when things got too much to handle, he didn't have the strength to stand up to me. He was the Nice Guy and kept acting the part of family man. He silently grew to resent me. Meanwhile there was OW flattering him and validating his unhappiness with me. And so it goes ....
I say this because if I understand how things happened, I hope that it can be prevented form happening again. He seems to realize how flawed his thinking was and how selfish the behaviors were. It has been over 2 years since he left OW. When he left, he didn't look back and described relief. When I read posters that have a S that still has feelings towards the A person, I just cannot imagine. My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.
I am off track again ...
So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids," and it doesn't go away.
why won't it go away? I'm asking.
I want to be able to answer this. I don't know. There have been several times in the last two years where I saw hope, especially when we started Retrouvaille. Is it a deeper issue that I cannot answer until I explore childhood abandonment issues? I wish I understood better.
So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.
Sorry Blu but I'm still not clear on this^^^. Are they small flaws or big faults or what?
As in any R there are going to be things about another person that we don't like. As we stay with them, and love/accept them, those things are manageable, or even become apart of them we admire. There are also things that always bother us, but we let it slide, because ultimately the good outweighs the bad. When we question if we can even stay with someone, those things we consider flaws weigh in more heavily.
My biggest example with H is that I don't feel he has my back. I am such a loyal person so it hurts me deeply that I don't have his support. Someone could hurt me, and I see that he will still show them kindness. I feel that his close friends/family suoport him and only see his side. I feel that that is a reflection of him, as they have not spoken to me about these things. When we argue, he will use these peoples words against me. "Well my brother said XYZ." I cannot even desribe the fury this evokes in me. Why do other people get an opinion about my M?!? I talk to my support people about our issues, but they do not have judgments about my M or him; they will support me and us no matter which way it turns. I feel that he (even if its subconsciously) rallies people against me. I could be wrong, but this is how I feel.
Even the therapist he saw for a couple years would tell him his opinions and judgements about me. The same IC that saw him through his A and all his bad choices. Then H would tell me "well my IC said XYZ," as some sort of way to convince me that I was wrong about something. Again, I feel so hurt and angry about this. I feel cornered and as if he is somehow painting me as a bad guy to these other people.
I don't know if that makes sense. Again, I am not in the best place these days. ... I liked the story about Dan. Yes, there will always be Dans if things will ever change. I wish I was as strong as Dan.
Thank you for the time and helping me think a little bit more clearly. I don't want a perfect H, I am not going to run away, and I don't even mind being alone anymore. I just want to understand if this M can be saved and if not, I don't want to continue on such a painful/difficult journey.
Blu
[quote=BluWave]25,
When you share your story of H abandoning you in your most vulnerable time, it pains me. Ultimately the reason we even get M is to have a partner we can depend on when life gets rough.
though I want to be able to be cordial someday, this^^ might just be unforgivable. For sure it means i cannot be m to him b/c what if I got sick in 10 years? H did not have my back, which I should have known earlier, but he did not. I can see from the credit cards he was in Alaska the day I was sick, and I can't even explore that painful disloyalty further...
And I can say with absolutely certainty, hand to God, that if h were to have had a stroke or if h were to get very sick, I would have wiped his rear end until the day one of us left the earth.
I'm flawed but I'm damn loyal. At some point in our m, h was no longer the same way. I like to think he once was.
It sounds as if he has not been available to his kids in their times of need either.
^^this is true.
When I'd tell the kids that h was "flawed but loved them & just confused now/MLC" and that he was "hardworking and smart", etc,
my T asked me who I was trying to convince, the kids or myself or both. I could not believe the man I married had changed so much. So the answer is, both.
-
This very ^^^ insight came to me last week after a brutal night of nightmares. My T was very helpful.
((Sometimes the metaphors in my dreams, are so obvious I almost laugh at myself - - in the dream I was in a house that belonged to us -in my dream,- and the carpet was replaced with a sheet of the same color. YES, just Like the rug was yanked out from under me!..."really, subconscious, you couldn't be a little less obvious??"
In the dream, I found a cell phone between OW and h talking about their future dream home...And I met the OW and she was a hillbilly who muttered like a moron, but she was holding a really small baby to her face so I couldn't slap her.
Best part - I was screaming like a low class banshee out of control scorned woman, & in my dream - the neighbors came over & said "oh we thought you knew...we all knew." NO METAPHORS THERE... ))
But I'm starting to see reality and maybe I dodged a bullet.
Okay don't mean to hijack too much
And he is simultaneously boasting about OW as the "love of his life?" It's unbelievable, unnerving. How can you not wonder if taking him back 10 years ago was the right move? You can't tho, because that is passed. As you say, you did right by your family and there is more honor in that than walking away.
I do wonder.
The "upside" to his FB posts about OW and "introducing his Honey" and the "love of his life" (and trust me, I am scraping the barrel for the "upside") is that his comments are so over the top, so Not necessary, that they reek of craziness And or cruelty. And a strong need to validate his choices.
I mean, who does that?? And he's 60...wtf? If I meet a great guy and fall in love and commit to him, there will be NO Posts about it for a long time and then it'll be a freaking normal post. Nothing to prove.
But to your question, about if I wonder - yes ^^^this is one huge struggle I have, i.e. [u]that I made a mistake 10 years ago [/u]and that my choice to stay was only partly b/c I thought it was best for my kids. (Though I did very much believe that. I asked d's what their fears were and they each said "don't want to move again" and I did my best to avoid that. Which I did, for 10 years.
But I can see that I was also afraid to leave, & that I wanted to hold onto the future I believed would make all the sacrifices, worth it. We'd Finally win the jackpot from the poker game in which I only won every 7th or 8th hand, or just enough to keep me from folding and walking away from the table. Because I thought if I folded & walked away, everything I ever put into the m would be lost.
As opposed to cutting my losses.
This^^ haunts me.
part 2
That being said,
if you could predict the future and tell me that my H would do the same thing in 10 years, then I would walk. I would find a new way of living as a single parent and make the best of it.
I understand. Sorry, no crystal ball here. SOME will argue that the best predictor of the future is the past, and it certainly is A factor
but it's not the only factor in predictions. If it were the only factor, no one would ever enter a recovery program for being an alcoholic. There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence.
Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.
^^that's fair. Good insight.
In your case, with your mil just passing, I'm one of those people who sees that as too vulnerable a time for your h, for you to bolt.
Interesting you would review the m so much, at the same time your h faces loss like you faced - when he bolted...
I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation.
Though they don't seem alike in some ways, my h needs a lot of verbal admiration & he said as much in MC.
i think i was too angry & disappointed in him then, to ponder that deeply enough.
To be fair to me, I complimented him far more than he complimented me, but I could see his ego's need for affirmation about his appearance and the working out, get too high. The last 2 years, it was annoying actually. He would announce on a daily basis what his exercises were and what his weight was and his recent achievement
he was obsessed with working out, running, talking about HIS WEIGHT - OMG...
and probably pushing off his mortality fears.
I don't see my H as a selfish or arrogant person.
Well in this ^^^ respect our h's are quite different. My H is very selfish. Of that, I'm certain. No question. H did what He wanted to do and resented it when h was not able to get his way. the only thing of importance I ever said "no" to, was going back to Alaska...so he took the choice away from me, ran off and now blames me for ALL of our ills.
It's an amazing revision of our m. Sickening but pretty crazy. And hurtful, blah blah blah.
he's also Very confident, which I found attractive, though in the past few months, 3- 4 people have said he is arrogant. I didn't ask for that feedback, and i'm not yet sure what I think . Maybe there's a fine line.
He is actually quite easygoing, kind, generous, and perhaps sheepish at times. He is not a go-getter. He stands back, observes, and then goes with the flow.
Good news, they are not very alike.
My h is "always striving, never arriving." It's one credential or goal or adventure (for him) after another. And virtually all of his goals require sacrifice of others, without appreciation or reward for them/us.
For awhile H would SAY that it'll pay off for all of us but looking back, I'm surprised I didn't confront the insanity.
i distinctly recall asking h if he thought more money for another year away from our d's was ever going to matter to them. I asked "you think more $$ in our 401k will make it up to them?"
And h said "yes when they see how much..."
he was wrong. Epic fail on all counts.
Ugh.
I think when things got too much to handle, he didn't have the strength to stand up to me. He was the Nice Guy and kept acting the part of family man.
He silently grew to resent me. Meanwhile there was OW flattering him and validating his unhappiness with me. And so it goes ....
this seems to fit a lot of WAH's...
and so it goes...
I say this because if I understand how things happened, I hope that it can be prevented form happening again.
^^ that is the only legit goal of looking backwards, in my opinion. But even that has to be dropped at some point.
The phrase I am working on adopting is something like "the more you look at the past, the less of a future you have" or something to that effect.
You don't have to figure it ALL out before you move on. You could move on and when something triggers an insight or reminder, you can then look back for a bit and say "Aha, I see that...and so back to the now" and get back to your present life.
Maybe
He seems to realize how flawed his thinking was and how selfish the behaviors were.
I admit it, I'm envious. I recall h SAYING that his bff Dan had told him to prepare to "eat some crow" and that h said "I'm looking forward to it!" as if he was going to romance me back into the m, fully, etc.
I mean, I think that was his interpretation b/c he did not sound sad. (The real & possibly only remorse I'm sure of, was in Retrovaille).
As for the "eating crow" comment, I never made him eat crow. I never lectured him or asked HOW he could have been so selfish.
I never probed. WTF was I thinking?? Not saying I needed to punish him, but I sure should have wondered more about how he could be so selfish/dishonest. It was the lies that ate away at me.
Blu, I now think maybe I could not face the reality that I was m to a man who really no longer was very into family life and it was kind of a drag for him.
He knew that view didn't "look good" so he threw me some bones and things that NOW seem insane to believe,
but he'd wrap up major time away from us, in packages of "Just checking out a job/trying to get a pension/spend time with my ill mom/moonlighting ELSEWHERE b/c we need the money" AND then he'd resent me!
etc
and I accepted that.
It has been over 2 years since he left OW. When he left, he didn't look back and described relief. When I read posters that have a S that still has feelings towards the A person, I just cannot imagine.
My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.
Oh absolutely. For anyone to try and recon after an affair, your h's behavior and comments mirror what we'd all hope for. Kudos to him for that, and if I recall right, you did not "keep the road home, paved or smooth" so even more kudos to his credit, in a way.
("25, let's not go overboard with the kudos to h"--understood! )
more later
There is def a pattern in people having As or leaving the M when things get hard or there is tragedy. That does now seem to be an unusual occurrence. Perhaps instead of looking at how their betrayal hurt us, we shift perspective and realize it was less an intentional assault on the M and more of their inability to cope with life's hardships.
Good stuff, Blu. This is EXACTLY what happened to me. I had a pretty bad nervous breakdown in 2015 - I've had mental health issues in the past, but this was the worst episode to date. Caused by extreme job stress, financial issues, and just a general loathing of married life. She tried to help this time, but the worse I got (and I was NOT pleasant to live with, her and I clashed daily), the more distant she got and it was the perfect storm. She couldn't deal with me anymore and instead of doing the RIGHT thing, asking for a divorce, she went in the WRONG direction, which still pisses me off.
I don't know if our Hs are similar, but there are certainly patterns in people that have avoidance behaviors and those that turn to external factors for validation.
Yes - my W avoided any more confrontation at that point. She told me later in therapy that she accepted that this will be our marriage for the rest of her life, accepted her lot in life, and at the same time got a LOT of validation from OM. Like I said above, perfect storm. Go to work, fool around with OM, get your needs filled there, come home, get your other needs filled there (family life, financial support). Best of both worlds - until that world came crashing down.
She told me she never felt so many emotions and so destroyed at once. Her exact quote was: "Next to my mom dying, this was the worst thing I've ever felt - my whole life flashed before my eyes that night you busted me. I never want to go through that pain again".
I especially like 25's quote here:
The phrase I am working on adopting is something like "the more you look at the past, the less of a future you have" or something to that effect.
I'm SO trying to live this way. Flashes of what happened still haunt me, but I'm working my arse off trying to stay present. Its a learning process to this day.
My hope for my M lies in the understanding that this was a hard time, a giant mistake, and that we can both grow/change from it. I don't think I could do this without that.
I'm trying this tact as well. One thing: We've been together close to 30 years. If this happened say about 10 years into the marriage, I'd be done. Its the GOOD history we've had. It wasn't all bad. Yes, she's admitted to emotionally straying in the past, and this time was the only time it got physical. But her definition of "straying" differs greatly from mine, in that she says she developed infatuations with someone else about years ago but drew the line at anything physical and she eventually came around. (Of course I know this is BS, but its what I have to believe). I've checked out several times as well, feeling so emotionally distant that I thought we'd never stay the course. But it always came back to her and I. We ebbed and flowed.
NOW is the time we're both trying to work on the M, see our mistakes with each other, and keep committed to keeping the family unit together. After all this, we really do like each other. She is now more involved in my mental health issues and LISTENS to me, instead of walking away or trying to give advice. I, on the other hand, have become more involved in HER hobbies, her fitness career, and we're trying to share a common bond now.
I just gotta let time do the healing.
Blu,
I don't know a d@mn thing about piecing, but Ben & Jerry's has come out with a new flavor called Bob Marley's One Love. I ate some last night and it's really good.
25, thank you again. I am humbled by you.
Doodler, I gotta try that. Did you know that there is a Ben & Jerry's flavor locator online? I used it one day many years ago when I was craving Chubby Hubby, and I only had to drive 7 minutes. ... Now I am not a fan of chubby hubby ... or regular sized hubby ...
It is so much easier to post replies to others and give advice, isn't it. The hardest thing is to look inside, be honest, and then share. Sometimes I avoid sharing when things get hard. Plus, I don't like to disappoint people.
I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?
My logical brain has taken a backseat. I am tired. I feel like I want to avoid all this and just live my life without it. I don't have a plan yet. Just thinking a lot about how my life would be without this M and this ugly past.
Blu
I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?
I'm sorry to hear this, Blu - what was his reaction?
In regards to your anecdote and my messy M tapestry: so what I think you are saying is the stats around infidelity are not clear (black and white) because we don't know how it is measured. Plus, and pretty obviously, are people really honest about it? Ha. NO! So here is my glass is half empty response (because I am a total pessimist): if infidelity is very common (which I gathered from the Ted), well that depresses me because I am forced to accept that people don't value monogamy in the way I do. Are there less people in the world that are trustworthy and loyal? On the flip side, if her data on infidelity is skewed and it is far less common that I thought, well then that bums me out because my H is more of a dirtbag than many other men. It's just a lose-lose anyway you spin it.
Is there a third way? And I am going to ignore those people that cheat who had no reason to do so. Who are selfish perhaps. Who are just out for their own pleasure. But it seems many of us here who have had WW or WH recognize that we had our own flaws. We didn't provide what our S needed. I personally try to think of OM as someone who was there for my W when she didn't feel she could come to me. Does it hurt? Yes. Do I feel betrayed? Yes. But is OM not being in the picture mean that we have a great M? Nope. We would have probably kept going on and on until one of us (probably W) actually left.
So in my case I cannot fully see my W as a dirtbag for cheating.
It really [censored] we don't get training in how to "do" relationships. It's common because none of us know what we are doing and unhealthy thoughts, emotions and behaviors will continue because we never adjust.
25, thank you again. I am humbled by you.
-
It is so much easier to post replies to others and give advice, isn't it. The hardest thing is to look inside, be honest, and then share. Sometimes I avoid sharing when things get hard. Plus, I don't like to disappoint people.
Clearly this^^^ resonates with me. When I saw your post asking for my feedback a few months back I couldn't bear to disappoint you and others, & admit that I had filed.
I know you have been around the DB block, & given things a lot of thought. You know our situations are not very alike in some ways.
Sometimes the thing that most helps me here NOW, is to take my own advice.
Much easier to see the hope/hopelessness in other's martial situations than our own.
Pain sure colors a lot. And affairs and divorces and such, are traumatic ordeals.
One woman I know had cancer 4-5 years ago. She is now an LBSer divorcing. She told me "quite honestly, the cancer was less traumatic than this divorce". i believe her.
Cancer has protocols and statistics and ways to gauge progress...and you really have no choice but to go forward or give up. Maybe we need to see things that way. I'm not sure.
I told my H I wanted a separation. Things have been slowly spiraling downhill. There has been so much that has been said and done lately, that
I find myself questioning everything. Has he even changed enough? Being sorry and remorseful is not the same. Have I even changed?
Some of these ^^ are only revealed in time, wouldn't you say?
What does "sorry/remorseful not the same" mean?
And if YOU have not changed, does that mean you are disappointed in yourself and need time apart to become the woman you want to become
OR
that inside this marriage you don't feel you will ever become the woman you want to become? My logical brain has taken a backseat. I am tired. I feel like I want to avoid all this and just live my life without it. I don't have a plan yet.
Just thinking a lot about how my life would be without this M and this ugly past.Blu
No time machine Blu, you cannot go backwards to the "time before BD" and nor can your h. Remember when you said you had become very difficult. What is happening in you, now?
And here's another question...how is divorcing him going to help with the ugly past?
As for leaving and being tired, if not for the divorce proceedings themselves ($$$) and my d19 needing me more recently, I would be overseas. Much as I know it's the adventure and experience I want, the timing of it sure seems like I just want to run away.
H is in Alaska, so he literally could not be farther from the wreckage and still be in America. I mean, I get it.
Oh Blu,
I am so sorry you are hurting. You have been such an inspiration to me when you've spoken to me on my thread.
I have no advice, of course, but just wanted to say you are loved in big ways, by those both seen and unseen, and I am so thankful to have you on these boards.
Hang in there, and most of all, take care of BLU.
I somehow missed Storm's post. Thank you. And thank you 25, Leah, and all of you. You guys are great. ... Things are better at the moment. We need to get back on with the Retrouvaille HW and sessions. It is strange because while the pendulum does not swing back and forth as often, it swings so much higher in each direction! Hard to explain in writing. Things were going so, so well, and then I have felt for weeks that I was ready to separate. These thoughts/feelings of not wanting to stay in the M have been stronger than ever. The feelings of apathy are the most unfamiliar, although maybe it is more numbness because I do have a lot of emotions in there. Maybe I am just better at burying them and protecting myself now.
C-nut, was it your thread awhile back where we discussed the difference between feelings and emotions? Maybe it was sadhub. I think I need to read those posts again.
TxHub and Storm have really opened up my eyes this week. I think that piecing is hard work, but especially hard because I didn't DB well all along. I still need to look harder at myself and mistakes, make changes for me alone, and feel better independent of him. I'll be back later, and address you guys, as I need to run out the door.
Thank you beautiful people!
Blu
Blu,
I know that I commented in that discussion about fillings vs emotions... So I started going through my sitch, and got caught up reading every page.. I've gone through my current thread and 1/2 of my last one. I'll let you know if I find it.
Hey Blu, just ducking and checking on you. When you say things have been spiraling down, what do you mean? How would things be different if there was a separation? You mention that it would mean no more M with it's ugly past, but how would that change the past?
Hi Sara, thanks for checking in. When I say that things spiral down, I mean it can go very quickly from bad to worse. It's hard to explain. It started to feel like all the work and progress that we have made just disappeared and we were back to many months ago. Maybe I had assumed that as we made progress, the setbacks would be lesser. Or have less of an impact. So there was disappointment that we had come so far--felt hopeful and connected--and then poof, it was gone. I think that demonstrates that we have not made enough progress.
I know that I cannot change the past. I know that. The thing is, no matter how much progress we make, this "ugly past" will always be a part of this M. I have thought a lot in the last month about how my life would look if we went our separate ways. It is still somewhat strange to make a decision to stay in a relationship based on logistics and not based on feelings/attraction/heart. That's a thing I may always grapple with. In terms of accepting the A, well that is something I believe I will have to accept and forgive H, in order to have the kind of M I want.
Right now things are okay. I am putting my focus on my own process. Last night I had this revelation: being squished in a crowd and realizing I didn't feel anxious, was awesome and liberating. Sometimes we don't know how much something affects us until we are out of it and look back on it. I have had some crippling anxiety and I didn't quite get it about myself! I just thought that was how I was--controlling or impatient. I am going to explore that now. I can think of so many times I felt overwhelmed, anxious, and irritable, and then I ended up snapping at H and the kids. I know that hurt them and pushed them away. I can see a correlation between my anxiety and impatience with them. I know before his A, he started to feel suffocated.
In terms of H, things are okay. We are going to get back into the Retrouvaille program. Heck, we need it! We both are not good at communicating our thoughts and feelings well. I think we have eroded a lot of safety and trust. I don't just mean right after BD, but in the last couple years too. We both can be mean. So we sort of go through the motions of daily life, but it's not very satisfying. Hopefully if we can finish the program, we can be in a better position. My priority now tho, is understanding myself better. I can blame him for things sure, but I can only empower myself by looking inwards.
Blu
Hi Blu
hey, in the marriage vows commonly used in America, are the words "From this day forward."
I find those^^ words of tremendous value. It's not just about forgiveness, but on that note, I now think h never forgave me for my mistakes.
It's ironic to me now, but beside my point. In other words, the time I recall feeling ashamed, I really did ask him to forgive me and he said it like he meant it.
But 20 years later, it's quite clear he did not forgive me nor did he let it go NOR did he even remember it accurately.
I don't just mean we saw it differently, I mean he literally changed it in his mind into something worse and never said a word to ME until just before our sep.
Why does it matter? Not saying it does, but it is a teaching point about what we mean when we say "let it go" or to "forgive".
OTOH
when I forgave him for his "MLC" (or whatever we call it), it's not b/c he asked me to forgive him. It's because it was impossible for me to remain married and have any peace, without it.
Now I wonder about this^^ approach. Obviously.
So my "advice" is to look at the words "From this day forward" and each of you decide if you can apply them.
As you may recall - the Retrovaille experience h and I had at the weekend, was great. Profound and probably the reason we got another decade out of the m.
But I mentioned we only went to one follow up b/c of the logistics and I smh now, seeing those words..
"it was too much of a hassle"....um, yeah, so is divorce.
the take away here - if there is one - is to
figure out what is the piece of this trouble in you, that
harbors resentment about the past
(which is to be handled in some way that allows you peace, at some point in time)
Versus,
real issues in your present day marriage -
AND whether you can or should work on that^^^
(I say whether you "should" b/c maybe there are legit issues in your "today m" that you Blu - cannot - accept)
but if you can and should work on these "today's m" issues, figure out how. I know there is overlap of your today problems and resentment/pain from the past.
I believe there are elements of PTSD in this, too. Literally. So maybe a T who helps deal with that aspect, would be useful.
My bet is that the Retrovaille people can guide you in selecting a new way or T for it.
And of course the simple but not easy, suggestion I have, is to complete the dang program Retrovaille has.
Their structure is a process that I'd trust.
((( )))
Forgive my obtuseness but I can be VERY concrete. Some questions if you will humor me:
It started to feel like all the work and progress that we have made just disappeared and we were back to many months ago. Maybe I had assumed that as we made progress, the setbacks would be lesser. Or have less of an impact. So there was disappointment that we had come so far--felt hopeful and connected--and then poof, it was gone. I think that demonstrates that we have not made enough progress.
What exactly does progress look like, I mean concretely? For instance, I wrote three main goals when I started my DBing journey.
1. Sleep in same bed by June
2. WH quit his job in other state and move home and work here
3. We be able to talk about the affair and WH approach me instead of waiting for me to broach it.
I've accomplished these goals but still struggle with the feeling that we are not making progress. I go back to these original goals to reflect that I have made progress. Now I need to make some more advanced goals but remember that I have made progress even if I am not 100% where I want to be.
Communication; what does GOOD communication mean? That you address things immediately? That you put time aside each week to address the holes in communication? That you are each able to reflect back what the partner is trying to convey? When have you felt TRULY connected to your H? What was being said? What was the body language like? What time of the day was it? Where were you? DBing is largely focused on magnifying the moments where things are working, where they are good.
Hi everyone,
I don't have much new to report. Summer is flying by, which means vacation, kids' activities, and then work as usual (but throw in some time much needed off :-). Looking forward to some travel family vacays. I think it will be nice to spend uninterrupted time together as family. Our schedules are all over the place and rarely can we all even sit down to dinner together is seems. Strangely though, I think I would enjoy this time as much with H/kids as I would with just kids. Gosh, the irony in that, too bad I can't go back a few years and serve up some of this detachment when I really needed it! In fact, I wish I could give some of you posters a few slices too. I truly, truly do. It pains me to read some of your posts because I felt the exact same way then and now I do not at all.
I would have never thought 3 years ago I would be here. Could never, ever have imagined. I was spinning and back sliding for so long--reading here every day--and I just could NOT let go, drop the rope, or imagine my life without him. Not at all. The thoughts consumed me and controlled my life. Now he is solidly back in, and while I think it is best for all of us, I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT I would be fine on my own. I like my alone time and privacy now more than ever. I am telling you all this because I promise things will change. As the months and years go by, things will settle and you can still have a beautiful life. It is all in your perspective and NOT in the choices your S is making. I thought then that he was doing this to me (ruining my life and taking every thing away) when really it was me not letting go that held me down.
... now I need to tackle these questions form 25 and Sara and force myself to dig a little deeper--which I have been avoiding--so here I go ...
Blu
Blu,
Don't forget my existential question: What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? (I may have ripped-off that question, but I'll never tell.)
25,
"From this day forward." I honestly cannot recall if that was in my M vows. I looked for them a few years back--just prior to BD--and couldn't find them. Maybe that would have stopped him from being a chit head and leaving? Nah, doubt it. I do recall in our M vows were something to the effect of "choosing each day to stay with this family for what it is and what it is becoming." Yikes! I mean did H think he could just choose to no longer participate and bail? Maybe we thought back then that if we took the pressure off that we would more than likely choose to stay. No idea. Ha!
I think your point is that I need to start looking forward and stop looking back. Yup. I completely agree. I am sorry but I am just not there yet. I have still not full forgiven him for what he did and it does hold me back. I also know myself enough to know that I need to forgive him in order to move forward, and that if I want to, I will. So it will happen. In time I believe. I am accepting that this is going to take a much longer time than I had thought.
I am sorry your H didn't forgive you. That is more telling about him than your mistakes tho, isn't it? You can't stay only halfheartedly if you are in it for the long haul. I know that too. I can't stay where I am indefinitely. My clock is ticking. I also know that H feels that he is waiting for me and it is his choice (right) to leave at any time. I am okay with that too. I have all I need with or without him. That my friends, is what I call detachment. I savor it. It feels better than anything I have felt in years and there is no risk involved.
Harboring resentment vs real issues in present day M:
I guess it is hard for me to understand how "real" the present day issues are. I mean look, he is not anything like the current waywards, walkaways, MLC, or exhibiting any dirt-bag (for lack of a better term at the moment" behaviors. However, I also realize that while we are compatible in most ways, there has been this tiny piece missing. That tiny piece I have always accepted because my love for him was so strong and quite frankly his good qualities far outweighed it. Note I am not sharing this tiny piece because well, it feels slightly shallow. I know this is a great community and I don't think you will scoff at it (well some might), but because I don't think it's right to place too much value on this sort of thing. There are things about H I don't like and they have always been there.
The thing is, I think it is a cultural problem (and why US has high D rates) to assume that your S should fulfill all these roles (best friend, intellectual, financial, emotional, etc). So what I am saying is it is not so much "real issues" is that there are things lacking in him that I just need to appreciate in others. As I age (and my children leave the nest) perhaps this piece will be of more significance, I don't know.
I guess the "real issues" stem from the hard feelings dangling form the separation and the chitty communication that has consequently developed from those hard feelings in the last 3 years. ... Just the other night we were bickering, and there stood our littlest little watching us and sobbing (way over tired from a long day at camp) and this added stress, and then caused more bickering, and round and round we went .... it was like a bad afterschool special. Sigh.
So all in all, I think I get it. Time to move forward. We need to get back into Retrouvaille and learn to express/understand one anothers' feelings, improve on basic communication, and both work towards forgiveness and then intimacy. I think I can do that. It's the detachment and not really wanting to do it that holds me back.
Did I even answer the questions? Sorry, that was a long tangent I went off on ...
Blu
Sara,
I had to read your post a couple times and I am confused on how to answer, thus my procrastination in responding. If I were to write a long list of concrete objectives and goals, I would say that we have met almost all of them. We started Retrouvaille and that we need to complete, otherwise we have "done the things to do." So I don't struggle with feeling that we are not making progress. We have made a tremendous amount of progress!
What I am struggling with is the concept of forgiveness, what it means to me personally, and how to achieve it. This evolves over time as I research it, think about it, and as my healing from the sitch (PTSD) naturally happens over time. What I am learning is that "forgivenss" holds different meaning and more so has a different value for each one of us. I am at a place where I am trying to accept that my process is a veerryyy slllooowwww one. This is not just about the degree of the assault that this had on me, but my ability to cope, accept, and let go of the emotions surrounding it.
Good communication to me can be broken down in two parts. The first part being that one side is free to express themselves safely, openly, and honestly, and that it is done in a respectful, clear, and concise way. The second part is that the other side can listen, hear, and understand, and then that they are able to take in and process that information. Basically, we svck at all of it!
I think this is mostly because, as I said above, we have been practicing bad communication for 3 years. The poor communication has been fueled by the hard feelings. The more we practice, the more we have cemented these habits. Like any bad habit, when you practice it, you reinforce it further.
What I like about the Retrouvaille program is that it forces you to break the habit. The program teaches you how to communicate openly about your feelings and how to listen and take in your partner's feelings. I think the more you can practice these techniques, the more you gain understanding and empathy towards your partner. If we can develop these new and better habits, then the harder issues become less triggering and more manageable. If done well, ultimately this creates intimacy needed to have a loving and close M.
That is my hope anyhow :-)
Blu
Thank you for your honest look at your M and how difficult it is to make things work after a seperation and A. I am closer than I've ever been to R (thanks to detaching) and have some of the same thoughts. It's good to know both that these thoughts are normal and that I am experiencing this because I choose to. I can leave at any time and it will be ok.
Melo,
Can see that you haven't posted on your own thread for more than 6 months. Would like to hear an update, if you are ok with providing one. Love to hear succes stories here ;-)
Thank you. One of the reasons that I post is because I know that when most of us come here we are only desperate to get our M back. That is usually our only goal. I think it is helpful for posters to see how things do change after the S comes back, because really it is not rainbow pooping unicorns, but a lot of hard work and heart ache. When my H DB me, I fell hard and my focus was on if he was coming back and what I could do to get him back. That energy doesn't work to bring them back and if anything it pushes them further away. Nobody wants an insecure, needy, desperate person, do they? Mostly it is self torturous and digs us deeper in our pit of despair. Posting also helps me to journal my feelings and has been quite therapeutic.
I cannot go back and tell my wounded self these things, so telling all of you feels second best :-) So even if your S comes back, even if you both want to work things through, and even if you navigate your way through peicing--even then--that old M, pre-DB, is gone. You never get the innocence back. That is a hard pill to swallow. It will never be the same. It behooves you the most to accept it is over and grieve the end of it now. While there is so much of my H's character that is the same, the dynamic between us is different. We have to decide now how to have a new and better M, despite all the painful history, because it doesn't just disappear with reconciliation.
The reason I believe in this DB philosophy is that in my mind it is the only way to heal and move forward. There is nothing you can do to force or entice them back. The only thing you can do is set them free. In the mean time, what you can control is yourself. You can choose each day to love yourself, process the grief, and work towards becoming the best version of you. Let's face it, as our M fell apart, we also know that we lost our ideal self in there. This is your time to face that.
As you begin to grow and change, over time (perhaps months or years), they will most likely notice. It is usually then that they decide to look back at you, and the M, and have second thoughts. Although many don't. And often when they do, we have gotten stronger and healthier, and now we may not like what we see anymore! If they simply come back without having done their own work, then it may not be good enough for us. It takes two strong partners to navigate piecing successfully.
If they don't come back? Then you still get to have success. The measuring stick of success changes when you come here. It is now about you and your own journey. The better you does not want a person that can and will hurt you and not look back. A better you doesn't want a liar, a cheater, and a person that can walk out on their family. The better you is now ready for a better other.
Did I just create some sort of DB commercial? lol. I mean it tho. .... Let it gooooo ....
Blu
Thought I would update. Not much new to report. We are back in Retrouvaille doing the post-sessions. I don't have much motivation to do the daily homework, but I know that I need to. I just crave some normalcy, whatever that means. I try not to make my M and working on it the main focus of my life. I am trying to create balance. My kids and their activities consume a lot of my attention. I have been better at not letting my mind go to negative thinking or dwelling on the past.
We are well past the 2 year mark of piecing and I will say it is getting easier. The triggers fade. Even when I have reminders or think about hard times, I don't have much of an emotional reaction. I feel confident and strong. I feel like my old self again, or maybe better. I say better because I have a resiliency that I didn't have before any of this. With that also comes some sadness tho because I no longer have that romance/fantasy of what my M could be. It also comes with clearer lenses to vision what I want in a M and partner, because I am no longer hanging on out of fear.
I was told that XOW is getting married to her OM2 (or whatever he is). She left her H for my H, and when my H left her, she moved on to this OM2 and moved in with him in a couple months (they each have 2 kids, so I can't even imagine). I don't actually care about what she does, but it does reinforce how full of chit she is in general. Before she had the A with my H, she would boast to our circle of friends that when her youngest turned 18, she would leave her H, travel, and have some sort of glam single life. She told us (and my H when they were together) that she should have never gotten M and wouldn't again. She prided herself on being different than the type of woman that needs a man. In reality, she has always been with a man and was even engaged before her XH. She is needy and shallow (unable to look at herself) and thinks that she can paint some false image of herself. My H and I had a brief discussion about this; all in all, the more time passes, the more he sees her character more clearly and what a delusion the entire A was. Sigh.
So there are several threads here that I follow, and if there were 25 hours in a day, I would read all of them. I wanted to say some things for some of you that are hanging on tightly to a person that is toxic. There are so many similarities in our sitches, but I think (and I have said this before) there are just as many differences. T's threads inspired me to post today because I can see how different our Hs are even tho there are some logistical similarities.
There are different degrees of betrayal and devastation that the S puts on the M after BD. We know we can't control them and if they come back, but it is hard not to try. The thing is, that even when they do come back, that is when the hard work starts of trying to piece. My H's betrayal was pretty big and so it has been hard. However, he has said and shown through consistent actions over time that he is committed to the M, remorseful, and willing to do whatever it takes to make this work. I think the most important element of that is that he is looking at his life long patterns (lack of boundaries and needing others to feel good about himself) and taking the actions needed to change them. He has offered full transparency, gone to IC and MC, attended Retrouvaille, and been very patient with my process and my inability to stick to it. I have had plenty of doubts and wanting to end it in the last few years.
So even given all of that, it is still hard! I can't imagine trying to work through this if there were other assaults on the M during our separation. That would be so much harder to work through. For example, when we were apart: he never filed for D, he was honest about the R with OW (as much as a cheater can be), he took responsibility for it being his fault, he left the house and gave me space, he stuck to a schedule that was best for the kids, he still paid half the bills, and he was there if the kids or I needed anything. He still appeared remorseful (and somewhat pitiful) for what he was doing and he wanted things to be as best as they could. He was active in the therapy we set up for the kids and he spent a lot of quality time with kids during his evenings and weekends. He did not bring the kids around OW and her kids, go on vacay with them, or move in with her (even though she tried all of this). The kids were friends and so it would have been hurtful and confusing to all of them. There wasn't other As. [[[side note, there was a woman at work who had been pursuing him for years (yes, we argued about his boundaries with her then and yes, he now he sees it) and the irony is that OW then was the one "friend" who told me that I was jealous and should not care about work woman. Then she goes after my H. Well during our separation, during H and OWs A, work woman sniffed out his weakness and came on STRONG--texting pics and even tried to kiss him at work--and wouldn't you know that OW was crazy jealous and he couldn't even talk to her about it! What the what?!? Side to side note: OW was not the confident flirt she pretended to be, and she used to cry, keep him up at night, make him hold her, and beg him not to leave her. I say all of this because As are not as fun and exciting as we LBS may think. She needy and insecure and he felt stuck.]]]
At the time all of the above meant nothing to me--I was devastated and furious that he could have an A at all and leave our M. Now during piecing, these things matter. It is easier for me to say that my H's betrayal was a mistake and there were certain things in his character that were and always have been fundamentally good. He was still a responsible parent and put our financial stability first. And even though he was with OW, I do believe now that he was still remorseful while hurting me and the kids. Sadly tho, he made these choices and still lives with the regret and aftermath.
I just wanted to put that out there. My H is not perfect and he made a terrible mistake. He is now working hard to fix the damage. I have to give him credit for that. I also can see how much more damage he could have caused and even in his "fog" he did make some better choices than he could have. Most importantly, he is a recovering Nice Guy and understands his lack of boundaries are his decisions and choices and his alone.
Blu
I think your courage and honesty is a really helpful thing to share, Bluwave. For me, even though R looks inconceivable and I am weeks away from the D being finalised, it has helped me reflect on what I want now as opposed to a year ago. Like you, I crave normalcy because my life just turned to shocking lunacy two years ago and I resent it.
I had to think hard about this a couple of weeks ago when my H suddenly broke silence and wanted to 'chat'. Even a few months ago, I would have jumped on this as an opportunity but I felt very uneasy so, in a huge 180 for me, I took a few days to think about it. Then I said no thank you. I love my H and D is not what I wanted, but I'm tired of the lunacy. Through the D process, I found out some things that were pretty shocking and I'm tired of trickle shocks. I think I'm too tired to even think about the effort required to do what you're doing. My logical brain said that my H wanted to 'chat' and was admitting he has made a 'horrible mess' and said he wanted to 'salvage something'...but he was still as far as I know seeing OW, still acting like a mean jerk with the legal stuff, still lying and not actually proposing anything other than chatting on the phone. My heart said I can't chat to someone who is lying to me and doing nothing in actions, as opposed to words, to earn my trust or show me respect or responsibility for his own choices. I deserve better.
And I know my M is dead, and I valued the innocence and trust and mutual admiration that was core to it. Those things are lost and can never return because my H valued them - and me - so little that he took a flamethrower to them. Even (big stretch) if he were to act like he wanted to repair or rebuild something new, those lovely things are lost and I don't want a M based on fear or suspicion or lies. For me, I would rather be alone or start to build those things with a new man who I don't know has been capable of treating me as worthless and invisible. I want to laugh and love and offer things to someone I care about without feeling afraid or judged.
It's a big step for me to stop wanting, even hoping, for my H to come back but I think I'm just too tired and battered by WTF to even hope for the chance to try to do what you are doing. I thought I would, and I admire your strength, but right now I just want the lunacy and pain out of my life. Your honesty helps the rest of us think well and wisely. Thank you.
PS My H is probably a recovering Nice Guy too (family stuff) and I still believe that behind all of his horrible choices, he is a good person and worth loving. He was a good H and a good man and a good friend for almost 20 years before this.
Hi,
Thanks for posting. I am glad that my posts are helpful. 2 years is a long time! My H was gone a total of 10 months, with a failed attempt to come back for about 6 weeks in the middle of that. If that went on for 2 years and there was OW2 in there, I am not sure that I would be where I am now! For me, part of being able to forgive him includes that there was only 1 OW and it is not a pattern. The pattern is the NG behavior, not being clear on his positions/opinions in the M, growing to resent me for this, his lack of boundaries (especially with women), and his need for validation/happiness from others. Those patterns are things that he recognizes now, accepts as problems, and is actively working on changing. Ultimately I think for the M to work, that needs to happen.
Often when we come here, we focus on getting our S to come back, however that is just the first, and required, step. Once they return to the M, both people have to look at their part, make changes in themselves, and then create a new M together. It is a tremendous amount of work because simultaneously we have to reconcile a lot of hard feelings towards one another.
I will check out your thread. I am going out of town for several days and running out the door now.
Happy weekend everyone! Go out there and GAL, 180, detach, and all the good stuff :-)
Blu
Reading your posts is like taking a calming tonic before bedtime.
Hi Blu,
It's so funny but there are a lot of similarities but also HUGE differences in our situations. But for all of that I feel I am paralleling you. I will be posting on my other thread but a lot of what you write resonates with me. Your wisdom is very helpful and I often reflect within after reading bout your journey. Thank you so much for paying it forward.
Blu
since you're going out of town soon, I'll just note your comment about resiliency.
After seeing 3 of my closest circle of friends bravely face horrible challenges in the past 18 months (cancer, a double lung transplant and sudden loss of an child)
I think we are finding deep wells of resilience.
Sheryl Sandberg (CEO Facebook, who lost her husband unexpectedly) says resilience is like a muscle that we can use and strengthen.
I suspect both apply here, to you. And I don't have an opinion about what you "should" do, as long as you do what is needed so you don't have regrets later.
Regrets are so unproductive.
Anyhow, I'm Impressed.
((( )))
Martin Seligman's stuff on resilience, which Sandberg uses, talks about the 3 Ps
- Personalisation, how much you think it is your fault
- Permanence, if you think it will always be this bad
- Permeation, how much of your whole life/self is damaged or affected
Each of us bring our own baggage to this, I think. I've always been grateful that my H's behaviour has been so extreme and MLCish that I've rarely thought it was about me or even our M. At the same time, of course, I've reflected on the patterns in our M and how it might have been weakened or contributed.
I've found the permanence thing really tough because it has felt as if this crisis has gone on for a really long time. And the MLC timescales are depressing. But if I step back, I can see that things are not the same...some better, some worse, but not the same. I think detaching gives you the objectivity to step back a bit.
And how much of me/my life? Well, tbh, a lot and there are some lessons in that too, aren't there? Some of it is just practical...if the person you are emotionally, financially and legally sharing your life with blows up, then it affects a lot of things. GAL is about reclaiming and salvaging the bits of you and your life that don't have to be polluted by it, I guess.
Hello friends,
I had a wonderful trip. Looking forward to our big vacay coming up soon. TBH, if I had taken this trip post-BD 3 years ago, I may have struggled and thought about H not being there. Now 3 years later, we went as an intact family, and I would have enjoyed it just as much had he not gone. Maybe more ... As I keep saying, I am completely detached. ... How to reattach, and if I am ready, well that is the thing I keep floating back to. That is why we need the piecers to keep posting. So that is some proof in the pudding that 1. you don't actually need your S, you just think you do, and 2. reattaching can be harder than detaching!
Thanks everyone for stopping by. I appreciate that you guys read my thread and find it helpful. And lots of good nuggets on resiliency that I will follow up on. I also need to catch up on your threads. ... The thing is tho, that part of my 180 and GAL requires me to step away from the computer! I have not been getting things done lately and I have been vegging out more than moving my body ... So I am gonna step away now and force myself off of screen time ...
Blu
As I keep saying, I am completely detached. ... How to reattach, and if I am ready, well that is the thing I keep floating back to.
Blu, just curious - what does this look like in spending time with your H? Are you affectionate or do you keep your physical distance?
It's hard for me to picture having the detached attitude and also having a pleasant time. How does it work?
(And just in case, there's a total lack of sarcasm in my inquiry. I can't picture how you interact!)
Blu -
If its any consolation, W and I had a pretty rough fight last week, to the point where I just felt absolutely no emotional connection to this woman. I'm sure the feeling was mutual.
I was pretty detached and really didn't even want to be around her. She stayed out and this suited me fine. I could care less if she was with OM at that point, that's how unfeeling I was.
In a couple of days, we started talking and settled down. Back to normal, however you define normal nowadays.
In my case, it always comes back around. It's rough and it feels AT THAT TIME that we're done. And I'm ok with it. I'm not scared and calling family, posting, whatever. I'm a big boy now and I can handle it.
Its a good feeling....its an unusual feeling, but one we have to get used to. And that's also ok!!!! Its nice not being scared anymore.
Blu, just curious - what does this look like in spending time with your H? Are you affectionate or do you keep your physical distance?
It's hard for me to picture having the detached attitude and also having a pleasant time. How does it work?
(And just in case, there's a total lack of sarcasm in my inquiry. I can't picture how you interact!)
Oh I don't mind sarcasm anyhow :-) I am not sure what we look like to others. If you saw us in public we look like a normal family, whatever that means. My kids have def commented that we are not affectionate in general. That's accurate, but also has partly always been that way because I am not a touchy-feely type person.
I think most of our day to day interactions are cooperative and friendly. I def have more moments of impatience and irritability than he does, whereas he is more of an avoider and will leave the room. We do gripe and look like an old grumpy couple often.
We still have bursts of laughter, flirtation, and attraction. Those are the moments that keep me going and hopeful that things can be better one day. We were doing one of the Retrouvaille post-sessions and would side eye each other and then laugh at the same time. It happened partly because we are both simultaneously acknowledging how ridiculous we can be. This sense of humor keeps the energy light and keeps us going for sure!
Blu
Blu -
If its any consolation, W and I had a pretty rough fight last week, to the point where I just felt absolutely no emotional connection to this woman. I'm sure the feeling was mutual.
I was pretty detached and really didn't even want to be around her. She stayed out and this suited me fine. I could care less if she was with OM at that point, that's how unfeeling I was.
In a couple of days, we started talking and settled down. Back to normal, however you define normal nowadays.
In my case, it always comes back around. It's rough and it feels AT THAT TIME that we're done. And I'm ok with it. I'm not scared and calling family, posting, whatever. I'm a big boy now and I can handle it.
Its a good feeling....its an unusual feeling, but one we have to get used to. And that's also ok!!!! Its nice not being scared anymore.
Storm, I could write the exact same thing as you did! When things go sour or we get into arguments, I do not feel fear and anxiety, however I almost become immediately shut down and detached. I feel as if I am okay with it ending right then and there. It can happen fast too. It's hard to describe. Then things settle down. Perhaps it is protective mechanism we have developed from the trauma? Either way, I do know that if this M didn't work out, I would be fine. ... I mean we all will, we just have to get to the point of believing it.
Blu
Blu
Just spent hours reading your threads. Thank you for allowing poeple to hope. Marriage is ever evolving you situation proves that.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. These boards got me through many painful and hopeless days. I have learned so much from these people here and I feel that sharing my story is the least that I can do to show my appreciation. I also very much believe in the philosophy of MWD and her teachings. If I could--coulda shoulda woulda--go back in time, I would have handled things so differently. At the moment of bomb drop, I would 100% have DB'd his arse! ... I actually replay that moment in my mind with this perfect poker-face and matter of fact response ....
Maybe next time--HA!
Blu
If I could--coulda shoulda woulda--go back in time, I would have handled things so differently. At the moment of bomb drop, I would 100% have DB'd his arse! ... I actually replay that moment in my mind with this perfect poker-face and matter of fact response ....
Maybe next time--HA!
Blu
Oh GOD - I thought I was the only one that has played out that scenario about 1000 different times!!!
Obsess much, Storm? lol
If I could--coulda shoulda woulda--go back in time, I would have handled things so differently. At the moment of bomb drop, I would 100% have DB'd his arse! ... I actually replay that moment in my mind with this perfect poker-face and matter of fact response ....
Maybe next time--HA!
Blu
Oh GOD - I thought I was the only one that has played out that scenario about 1000 different times!!!
Obsess much, Storm? lol
Add me to that list, lol! I've replayed that and a few moments that followed in perfect DB form. I hope I don't end up rewriting my memory by doing that...
Maybe we should start a thread where we simply share the BD scenario and then replace it with the ideal one? You know, just for chits & giggles. ....
I would have stood there totally expressionless, listened to his BS lies about OW, etc, watched him fumble all over himself, and then I just would have kept my cool, nodded and said, "okay H, I understand what you are saying. I am sorry to hear that. (insert long pause)... I am going to the store now, need anything?" (Exits room, exits house, goes into car and then loses it). LOL.
Blu
Funny..I'd have done nothing at all for about 3 days (my first BD was an email.) Then, after seeing him fall apart a week later with a breakdown...no A then...I would have been more matter of fact on him getting help or leaving. If only I'd known about DB then!
Right!?! How different would things have played out if we were equipped with DB skills before BD? My official BD was when H basically got caught having an EA with OW, however really I had lost him for longer than I had known. The EA had gone on for about 8 months before BD. I had even gotten the ILYBINILWY speech months before I learned about her. In fact, if I think hard, HE had been asking to go to MC for some months before that and I didn't agree to it. He had been trying to end the EA and cut off contact with her. There were several signs of hope, but I didn't see any of them. I was so hysterical
I also had been doing all the wrong things up until BD (in addition to after it) because I was so focused on him and the R, and not on myself. Sigh. Well I never want to relive that but I can assure you that today, if he dropped even the smallest bomb on me, I am well prepared! Not saying it would be easy, and I am sure it would be painful, but I would follow the rules and save myself.
Now that so much time has passed, it is easier to see things clearly in my sitch. I can see how when I did things that were contrary to DB (yelling, crying, pleading, bargaining, pursuing, etc) he would pull back and hide. With his NGS he would bury himself in guilt and become paralyzed. Then OW was on the sidelines pursuing, flattering, and reinforcing how much happier he would be if he left me. On the flip side, there were several times (short lived until I got better at it) that I did DB well and I was getting results. I just wasn't independent and strong enough to be able to see it (measure the results). In the middle of our separation, he left OW and attempted to R, but it was too difficult to even consider.
I was the one that kicked him out. I was the one that talked to Ls. I was the one that told him that I hated him and to never come back ... Sadly, I think if I had been in the mindset that I am today at the time of BD, then I don't actually think he would have ever left and had the full on A. I think he would have stayed and wanted to work on the M. That is not easy to admit, but it's time that I do.
Blu
I was the one that kicked him out. I was the one that talked to Ls. I was the one that told him that I hated him and to never come back ... Sadly, I think if I had been in the mindset that I am today at the time of BD, then I don't actually think he would have ever left and had the full on A. I think he would have stayed and wanted to work on the M. That is not easy to admit, but it's time that I do.
Blu, I'm not sure you should necessarily beat yourself up for this. There's no way to know what would've happened if you'd been less harsh and he stayed. He might have still gone to the full A eventually, and y'all might not have made it to piecing at all. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing to look back and learn from mistakes, but I don't think this should count as a major regret for you.
Thank you for saying that. You are right: there is no way that I can predict now how the outcome could have changed or if it would have. The end result might have been the same or even worse. ... I think the reason it is important for me to acknowledge my actions is because I also need to have some accountability. My H has shouldered all of the blame (and guilt) in the breakdown of our M, however I certainly played a big part in that as well. I am still working on making some changes in myself, and so looking at how I could have done things better will hopefully lead to me making better choices in the future. I am trying to be less emotionally reactive in all of my Rs. It also helps me with forgiveness, which is still a work in progress. I want to forgive H, and I mostly do, but I am looking for and wanting more.
Blu
What I did: I kicked W out upon finding out that night. The next day she texted me from her friends house and trickled truth, saying it was only a bunch of flirty messages. When I told her I had access to the texts (which I was going to hack her phone), she came clean and said, yes, it was physical once, it made her sick, so she stopped but kept up the emotional connection.
What I wish I did: A month after finding out, I did more digging and found out OM's wife, her work #, her cell phone #, and a Youtube video she did for her employer (and my W knew her). I wish that night I had that Youtube video playing on the laptop and my W would see it. I imagine she would probably say, "hey, I know her, she's a member of our fitness facility!!" (OM's wife is a member).
I'd say, "oh yeah? I know her too!! I just sent her a copy of every text between you and her husband. She's none too pleased. Oh yeah, and I also let your boss know about your shenanigans with OM - she wants to talk to you immediately. Please call her back as soon as possible. And your sister said she has a room available for you tonight - yeah, I let her know, too".
Although, in hindsight, had I done that, its very likely my W would've ended her life. The humility and embarrassment she endured with those in our small circle that knew was painful enough. Had all those women in her bible study, her running group, biking group, mommy group - had they all found out, it could've destroyed her.
However, the thing that hurt the most was her refusal to quit working with OM. Our recovery was hindered by their constant contact. This is something I deal with every therapy session, slowly coming to grips with it. My stupid IC and MC said it was ok and I need to get over them working together. Not until I saw my new IC did I start to get some balls back and really express my discomfort with it. Once he got promoted, I knew we were done. W sensed it and resigned immediately, no notice, nothing. THAT showed me she was serious about us. So that's something I can start building on.
Hello friends,
I had to search for my thread, and it was buried on page 11, so I guess it's time for an update. Nothing too exciting to report: summer vacation is over, kids back in school, and I have been working on some of my own GAL/180s. Partly that includes less time on the computer and more time reading books, home projects, exercising, and now eating more healthy. Spending time with friends has always been a strong suit. Making time for H? Guilty. I still need to work on that.
We have passed the half way point of the Retrouvaille program: there is a weekend program and then 12 post-sessions. We are doing a somewhat extended program, therefore 1 post-session at a time, whereas usually they are offered in 2s. I have to say, even though I am not Catholic, I very much appreciate the teachings and philosophy of the program.
Retro- strongly emphasizes that we as individuals are only responsible for ourselves, our choices, our actions, and that despite what our partner does, we can continue to do our own personal best. It is also helping me to accept that there is no natural fate of a relationship (no "happily ever after" and no "this M will never work"), but that if two people come together and make the choice and effort, the M can be recreated and yes, it can be better. It takes 2 IMO, and fortunately I have the S that is willing. For many, we can only do our own best, in hopes our S joins us.
So where am I in all of this? I don't always know TBH. I love my H and I love my family together. I still feel that I have some sort of wall up. Will that wall come down over time? That is the question that time will only tell. I still think that for me, I need to continue my DB efforts, in the sense that my focus should be on GAL/180 for me. I have been saying that for some time now, but I think emotionally I am finally at a place where I am developing very good habits for myself. When it comes to our daily Retro- HW, I am only motivated to do it some of the time.
Last fall, my dear mother lost her husband suddenly and is now in perpetual grief. She lost my step-father the same way many years ago. It is devastating and heart-breaking. I see her feeling so stuck in her life and I sincerely hope she can work through this and be okay on her own. I think it is too soon to tell. The thing is, she has never really been okay on her own and without a man; so this is also a pattern. I don't want to repeat her patterns.
I realize that many of my codependent traits come from my childhood and how I was raised. I think my H having his A and leaving broke me of that. He pulled the rug out from under our life and forced me to look at myself deeply. So perhaps this was the biggest silver lining? I know now that I would be okay with or without this M. I had to do a lot of faking when it came to DB/GAL/180/etc, however now it feels genuine. I feel healthier and stronger. I love my alone time. I am not afraid of anything anymore. It pains me to write this, but I would not have come to this if our sitch had not have happened.
If there is something I am still working towards, it is the forgiveness piece and letting my walls down. There is nothing he can do better or more of: he is open to me, making changes, and trying his best. I am hoping that as I can master my GAL/180s that these walls will come down more naturally. There is still this part of me that does wonder if I will ever feel (not the same) but as strongly about him as I did before.
Blu
Hi!
It's been awhile, so I think it's time for an update. IMO I personally feel that if we are going to give advice and 2*4 others, then we owe it to the community to share our own sitch.
We are getting close to the end of the Retrouvaille program. I have said before that we are not Catholic, however we appreciate the program, the teachings, and the overall goals. It is an international program and anyone is welcome to attend; couples (and priests) share a wealth of information on the importance of marriage and the steps needed to have a long term successful marriage. A lot of the tools we are learning are invaluable--communicating feelings, being personally accountable, and accepting that everything is a choice (marriage, love, forgiveness, etc). It's quite impressive actually.
That's the good stuff and I still do highly recommend it. Here is where I am getting thrown off. I am starting to feel that the indoctrination is getting in the way of what I am trying to get out of it. Could it simply be that some of the presenting couples are more fundamental in their beliefs than others? The last session we were basically told that if we want to save our M, then we need to go to church together and pray together. Without getting into my history in religion and H's history (why he became a MNG and our M failed, as he had an over-controlling Catholic mother), buuutttttt telling us TAHT is the last thing we need to hear to save our M. We are going to try and stay open-minded and complete the program, however we now must do so much more guarded.
I live in a very diverse part of the country and have friends and co-workers of all world faiths, and I have yet to see a strong correlation between religion and M success. In fact the couples that I think have strong marriages happen to me agonist (atheist). Am I suggesting that this data should mean anything about the program? No, but I am saying that couples can have lasting and loving Ms without going to church together and praying. There are so many reasons people stay together, and while religion/faith may help for some, it is not the only reason.
There have also been some presenting couples that have talked about the abuse they have endured and that they still choose to stay and work on the M. That has caused me some mixed emotions TBH. There are a few presenting couples that come to mind that my initial thought has been "why are you still together?" The goal of the presenting couples are to go over the material in the post-sessions, but it is also to show newbies that really any M can be saved if both people decide to and do the work. That is correct and they are proving it's true. Me personally, there are just things that I could not endure and some of these people have accepted horrific abuses.
Lately, I have been again more focused on my own GAL. I cycle through times of doubt about my M and if I can forgive H. Will that last forever? A good friend of mine reminded me how far I've come and that even if I can't see it, we are making so much progress. I don't know about that. I still miss how I felt about him before the A. I want to feel that way about my partner in life. He is a good guy, he does all the things--remorse, great at validation, awesome dad and co-housekeeper, and he is all in--but my heart is not in it. He still had an A and left me for this ugly mistake. So while there are so many things I like about my H more now, the history is and will always be there. Will I learn to accept and embrace that over time? I can't say yet.
I guess the difference now is that I don't feel as much emotion around it. I enjoy my day to day life, my family, my kiddos, my friendships, and my GAL. I have been running, swimming, hiking, and really enjoying my days off more than ever.
Blu
I want to feel that way about my partner in life. He is a good guy, he does all the things--remorse, great at validation, awesome dad and co-housekeeper, and he is all in--but my heart is not in it. He still had an A and left me for this ugly mistake. So while there are so many things I like about my H more now, the history is and will always be there. Will I learn to accept and embrace that over time? I can't say yet.
Hi blu....does your H know that you are struggling? Do you think you have changed as a person and that is why you are having a hard time accepting and embracing? Do you feel as though you deserve better? Or is it simply trying to resolve, process and move past your anger? I ask because obviously overcoming the A piece is probably the most difficult challenges each of us will face if we get to the point your at.
Are you questioning your own faith and whether a lack of religion has played a role in where you are with your marriage?
Full disclosure, I'm an agnostic. However, I don't believe religion has anything to do with it. I would be in a relationship with an atheist or a theist as long as they did not pressure me to share their beliefs (my H is an atheist who despises religion but is currently messing around with a born again, go figure on both their parts--his attacks on religion were a very prominent part of his once active FB profile and therefore it isn't a question of her not knowing).
I think with anything you have to take the information in and use the parts that are helpful to you. It's great that a program like that exists. It is unfortunate that both that and Divorce Care have a religious bend. I probably will never attend either because of that.
In a very different place from you but can understand your struggles. I recently talked to an old friend who went through his own MLC. He never left home. He is back to his old self and is connected to his work and his children again. But, he has no sense of connection to his wife. I think it will come in time.
This may not make you feel great, but your struggles have been very helpful to me. I feel much better about the loss of my marriage knowing that even if he did "snap out of it" and come back, that I would still be questioning us for a long time. Given his treatment of me to date, all of this makes it easier to let go and focus on living my own life.
Don't kick yourself about the religion. You don't need it to be successful. Listen to your own moral compass and let that steer you through this difficult time.
I think I'll give my thread a bump as well.
Time for an update.
J9, oh yes, he knows. One of my character flaws (and strengths at times) is that I wear my heart on my sleeve. I have been less interested in the Retrouvaille program and doing the daily HW and I have not been affectionate or planned quality time in awhile. There have also been things that I am not happy about so I have pulled back lately. And I tell him. I have also told him all along there are no guarantees.
I don't think my changing is why I haven't accepted this, but more so that I cannot change my core values and accept it. I have changed in other ways; this sitch has changed my perspective on my life in general. Accepting and forgiving goes against every fiber of my being, and to feel love/intimacy/trust with someone that can betray me in the worst way possible, is a place I just cannot get to. Mind over heart and concrete choices over emotions are no easy feat!
I know that I never will simply move past this. It has to be hard work and processed and it will always be there. On the outside, H has done all the things one could hope for and he truly has changed. He is a great man and partner, and he is a great dad. He is hardworking, loyal, kind, funny, and an amazing lover. He has looked at himself and is trying to change the NG traits and have stronger boundaries with people. He is not perfect tho, and there are things that bother me about him, and there are times that I question if we are compatible. That might be with anyone tho.
Overall tho, yes, it is the A piece for me that is the most difficult to overcome. Sadly, I think that will be the final deal breaker if we go towards D. I just really don't (and didn't) want that to be the reason, however it is what it keeps coming down to in my mind. We all have to decide what we can accept and forgive and I think we are all different. DB is about saving ourselves and hoping they come back. If and when they do come back, the perspective can easily change and it will.
Blu
Own,
Sorry, let me be clear, I am not questioning my faith, not at all! I am not kicking myself about religion--I know where I stand (currently) and I am fine with it. What I am saying is that I do not agree with the presenters in Retrouvaille that couples need to go to church together and pray together to save their M. Not at all! In fact, being told that left a sour taste in my mouth about the program in general. I did not complete the post session because of it. I know many happy and strong couples that are not Christians. I also have a lot of diversity in my friends/neighbors/coworkers, and I do not think the religious folks have a stronger moral compass. Some of my most honest, loyal and generous friends are the most non-religious.
I am very troubled when religious groups offer aid to vulnerable populations in exchange for indoctrination. I actually see that type if recruitment as a gross abuse of power. It reminds me of a service project I participated in for undergrad and we helped out serving food to the homeless at a church: the meal came with more than food and the church used that time to evangelize and required worship in exchange for the meal. So I am not here to have a debate about that, but I think that people should be of their own free will and choose to participate in religion or not. I can say with 100% certainty that all the prayer in the world is not what is going to save my M.
Thanks for sharing tho. I am glad my sitch is helpful to someone. I wish I could give people more hope about piecing after their H leaves them for their friend for almost a year, but I just can't. Maybe one day. We will see :-)
Blu
If my W comes back learning of the A would be the hardest for me as well.....and if you have done the work you realize how valuable we all are as individuals.
Btw......I love how you write and express yourself.
Blu, I really appreciate your perspective. I come back to your thread just to get a glimpse into piecing and it seems so bloody hard.
I feel that the fundamental act of betrayal is such a hard beast to wrangle. How do you forgive someone, who you thought had your back and such deep trust, when they go and blow everything up for stuff that isn't separation worthy?
I know I am so early in my sitch, but the betrayal is something I don't know I would be able to work through or process it to come to a place of acceptance - especially when there were other ways of dealing with the MR.
Hanging on to a little bit of hope for recon is helpful, but if and when they come back, it's like picking up their ruins and trying to attach it back. Sometimes it sounds so hopeless and that the LBS may be better off just DBing for themselves and moving on.
I feel that I got hurt so deeply that the wound may just never heal enough for me to piece.
Maika,
I get what your saying. Especially knowing how the WS talked bad about you and showed no remorse. That is something I know will be tough for me. W bragged about cheating with her friend as if she had earned a badge of honor. It was so bad that her best friend kicked her to the curb. And decided to tell me everything.
Thanks, Maika, I appreciate you saying that. Piecing and forgiving betrayal has been my biggest obstacle, no doubt! There certainly isn't a one size fits all approach either. There are no 37 rules for this!
We each come with our own complicated psychology, history, traumas, personalities, goals, etc. Even knowing that, I can't help but search for some formula or thing that I can do to make this work. It doesn't. I have so many darn feelings that keep getting in the way of my choices. All I can do is get up each day, try to be a good person, think about my goals, and work a little harder than I did the day before.
Sometimes it sounds so hopeless and that the LBS may be better off just DBing for themselves and moving on. Here is the thing tho and this is the point I want to make; you are ALWAYS better off DBing for yourself regardless of the outcome. Always. DB is for you and you only. It is hard for a lot of people here to accept that because this is a M saving site. Those of us that have been at this for more than a couple months or years, get it.
You can't control another person, manipulate them, or force them back into the M. Even if you did "trick" them back, it would not be a fulfilling or healthy relationship. We can, however, absolutely control ourselves and the type of person we want to be. Let's face it, we can post here all day long and convince the others that our S is in MLC, an alien, LIMERANCE, in a fog, etc, etc, etc. I say to that, "so what?" What difference does that make? Their perspective is still their perspective, and they felt something about us or the M was worth leaving. And whether we agree with their opinion or not, they still left. Focusing on them and their issues, will not bring them back
So all we are left to do is look at our part and inside of ourselves so we can understand why. Did we go wrong? If so, where did we go wrong and how can we do better? Then we can use what we find to help us better ourselves. We can also come to the realization that while they may not have appreciated those characteristics about us, we still do. There are thing about myself that I like that my H doesn't. And, someone else very well may like those things about us too. Maybe we learn that our S was right to leave? .... So if you can become a better person, and they are still a fool that doesn't want you, then you have in essence succeeded and you can still feel good about yourself.
Either way, we are the ones that want to save the M, we can only control our side of the street, so that's all we CAN do. There is only one way to win at this, and I don't think winning means getting them back. I have mine back and I am still running this race ...
Blu
Blu,
Thanks for that perspective. You post was plan and simple to understand.
Thanks for the response Blu.
Yeh I totally get what you're saying about DBing for yourself and only being able to control your side of the street. I am definitely doing it for myself at this point and recognizing that I have to figure out my own happiness that is not attached to the M. I am slowly figuring that out and as you said, we all bring our histories, traumas, psychologies etc and this is the chance to be critical about all of that and see how much of it has played a role in your life and how you have behaved or responded to life situations.
For me, that is unpacking a lot of stuff that I just refused to deal with. So, DBing in that sense is having a twofold effect - I am actually able to deal with decades worth of garbage that basically destroyed the core of my being, and also becoming the person that I was before that.
I am really looking forward to bringing myself back and I remember that my authentic self was able to flourish because I was happy with myself. I am working on it.
Hi!
It's been awhile, so I think it's time for an update. IMO I personally feel that if we are going to give advice and 2*4 others, then we owe it to the community to share our own sitch.
We are getting close to the end of the Retrouvaille program. I have said before that we are not Catholic, however we appreciate the program, the teachings, and the overall goals. It is an international program and anyone is welcome to attend; couples (and priests) share a wealth of information on the importance of marriage and the steps needed to have a long term successful marriage. A lot of the tools we are learning are invaluable--communicating feelings, being personally accountable, and accepting that everything is a choice (marriage, love, forgiveness, etc). It's quite impressive actually.
That's the good stuff and I still do highly recommend it.
Here is where I am getting thrown off. I am starting to feel that the indoctrination is getting in the way of what I am trying to get out of it. Could it simply be that some of the presenting couples are more fundamental in their beliefs than others? The last session we were basically told that if we want to save our M, then we need to go to church together and pray together.
I love that you are so fair with your comments. Though I'm Catholic, h was not (he became atheist in past 5 years (or more??)
So I was leary of anything that might press religion too much. It would turn h off.
OTOH, I do think if h had continued believing in something, he'd have behaved differently, and we'd probably still be m.
Maybe that's like me saying "if h had more values like mine...etc"?
The other reaction to your question is, maybe the more "fundamental" couples may well have Not started out that way but after they began digging in, they did. Or maybe that's why they were able to commit again?
The couples at our retrovaille had been thru he11, but they did seem bonded. I recall thinking "Good grief, if THEY can make it...!"
It takes a lot of faith in something bigger than us, to forgive, IMO.
Without getting into my history in religion and H's history (why he became a MNG and our M failed, as he had an over-controlling Catholic mother), buuutttttt telling us TAHT is the last thing we need to hear to save our M. We are going to try and stay open-minded and complete the program, however we now must do so much more guarded.
ironic. About 9 days ago I posted here on DB about my very positive DivorceCare support group (it's hosted by a Presbyterian church in my area, and it's national. I'm not sure if it's always in their church. But they don't require that we join). There is a group leader from the church, who conducts the meetings and makes sure we begin/end on time.
My group is so open and supportive, that we socialize a lot. After every meeting, we go for pizza and beer and we hang out.
Someone posted on this site, that in their area the dogma is being pushed too much.
I shared my very different experience herein,
and dang if the next night, I felt hammered with fundamentalist Christian dogma in the group's video presentation.
I live in a very diverse part of the country and have friends and co-workers of all world faiths, and I have yet to see a strong correlation between religion and M success.
In fact the couples that I think have strong marriages happen to me agonist (atheist).
well that has not been my experience, but then, It's not as if I have taken a scientific poll. I read that people who marry in (a) church have a lower divorce rate. Not sure if that's true. But I've heard and read it a few times.
For me, marriage was more of a commitment partly b/c of my faith, but hey, here I am.
Am I suggesting that this data should mean anything about the program? No, but I am saying that couples can have lasting and loving Ms without going to church together and praying. There are so many reasons people stay together, and while religion/faith may help for some, it is not the only reason.
of course
There have also been some presenting couples that have talked about the abuse they have endured and that they still choose to stay and work on the M. That has caused me some mixed emotions TBH. There are a few presenting couples that come to mind that my initial thought has been "why are you still together?"
the abuse was inside the marriage? Ugh. Yikes. I can understand your concern.
In our Retrovaille the single most difficult challenge in the presenting couples, was for the two couples who lost children. (I can't even...) And affairs.
The goal of the presenting couples are to go over the material in the post-sessions, but it is also to show newbies that really any M can be saved if both people decide to and do the work. That is correct and they are proving it's true. Me personally, there are just things that I could not endure and some of these people have accepted horrific abuses.
Yeah, I hear you. (Gee, I guess the good news is that we'd have clarity.)
Lately, I have been again more focused on my own GAL. I cycle through times of doubt about my M and if I can forgive H. Will that last forever? - I still miss how I felt about him before the A. I want to feel that way about my partner in life. He is a good guy, he does all the things--remorse, great at validation, awesome dad and co-housekeeper, and he is all in--but my heart is not in it. He still had an A and left me for this ugly mistake. So while there are so many things I like about my H more now, the history is and will always be there. Will I learn to accept and embrace that over time? I can't say yet.
you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that out?
I guess the difference now is that I don't feel as much emotion around it. I enjoy my day to day life, my family, my kiddos, my friendships, and my GAL. I have been running, swimming, hiking, and really enjoying my days off more than ever.
Blu
So is there really something to "decide" Now - or are you simply saying "hey, I'm in piecing - and it ain't for the feint of heart" ?
blu
I hope you know the last question I posted for you was meant to help, (not smirk.)
We are both analyzers and imo, that's usually a great thing...
Hi 25!
I think I know what you are asking :-) Sometimes if I go back and reread a post that I wrote, I can see where I am actually contradicting myself; that definitely helps me check myself and helps me look at things more objectively. For example, I have said how the Retro program has drilled the point home that Love, M, and Commitment are all choices and not feelings (or should not be decided based on emotions). And I do agree with this. Then I turn around and say, "but it doesn't feel right." So what I am saying is that understanding and agreeing with this ideology is not necessarily making it easier for me. Making a choice that doesn't feel right is hard.
you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that out
The abuse that some of the presenting couples have described seems extreme IMO: some of them have been through repeated adultery, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. I mean in the M with the same person they have restored their M with. Some of them have been abused by their partner for most of the M. It honestly shocked me. I think the affect that it could have had would be that any M can be salvaged if both partners agree, even in the worse of circumstances. However I found myself thinking that no one should put up with that and if this had happened to me, I would move on and never look back. ... So what tho, as I am sure many people would look at my sitch and what my H did and think the same. We can't live based on what other people think tho.
All that being said, I always told myself that any type of infidelity would be unforgivable. So here I am trying to undo that. And I still say that now--that if H ever betrayed me again, I would end the M and never look back. ... These sort of absolutes make it hard to forgive the past. Because even tho I know that love is a choice, I feel that by going against my promises to myself and forgiving him, that I am somehow now betraying myself.
Not sure if that makes sense. Maybe I just don't know what I am going to do.
Blu
Hi 25!
I think I know what you are asking :-) Sometimes if I go back and reread a post that I wrote, I can see where I am actually contradicting myself; that definitely helps me check myself and helps me look at things more objectively. For example, I have said how the Retro program has drilled the point home that Love, M, and Commitment are all choices and not feelings (or should not be decided based on emotions). And I do agree with this. Then I turn around and say, "but it doesn't feel right." So what I am saying is that understanding and agreeing with this ideology is not necessarily making it easier for me.
Making a choice that doesn't feel right is hard.
all of this^^ makes sense. The last sentence highlighted above -is b/c I realize that when a choice is not hard, it's not really a choice. We just decide.
When a tough moral dilemma presents itself, I figure chances are that the harder option is the morally correct one. Why? Because if the easier option were morally superior to the alternative, we would not be struggling, we'd just decide.
Make sense?
you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that outThe abuse that some of the presenting couples have described seems extreme IMO: some of them have been through repeated adultery, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. I mean in the M with the same person they have restored their M with.
ugh I HOPE that it means they somehow connected very deeply during the forgiveness and reconciliation phase. Maybe I have to believe that.
Or someone is sweeping under the rug and not enforcing a boundary, (maybe?)
And many years would have to pass before we could know for certain, I think.
Some of them have been abused by their partner for most of the M. It honestly shocked me.
If it were physical abuse, - actually that would have at least been clear. But I'm with you on being a bit stumped.
And yet I just specified "physical"^^^ abuse above. Hmm. Yeah it's more dramatic and dangerous. But there are other forms...
Hey, I've been swirling a bit today (it's h's birthday today. It's the first one since 1979 that I did not plan for, or do something. And this Monday we will have been sep a year, which is the last time I saw him.)
ANYWAY
I see h differently now. Not putting it all on him. I would do many things differently if I went back in time. And I'd accept less crap, too.
-
I see some lousy things h did that I glossed over before, and some were long ago. (Not all of it was recent "new h" stuff.)
Some of it looks pretty neglectful or abusive to me now, but then, I'm looking at the past with a new lens.(Nothing physical, to be clear).
It's Embarrassing to be honest. Here is the thing,
I put up with too much in hindsight. But I'm Not sure if a single incident is worth leaving - but when you add them up cumulatively, it looks surprisingly bad.
Those women in the abusive marriages, Blu - when you are in the maze, you don't know it's a maze.
Sorry to ramble. I do feel for you. I want it to work for you, but only if you come to feel love for and from your h and are at peace.
-However I found myself thinking that no one should put up with that and if this had happened to me, I would move on and never look back. ... So what tho, as I am sure many people would look at my sitch and what my H did and think the same. We can't live based on what other people think tho.
All that being said, I always told myself that any type of infidelity would be unforgivable. So here I am trying to undo that. And I still say that now--that if H ever betrayed me again, I would end the M and never look back. ... These sort of absolutes make it hard to forgive the past.
Because even tho I know that love is a choice, I feel that by going against my promises to myself and forgiving him, that I am somehow now betraying myself. Not sure if that makes sense. Maybe I just don't know what I am going to do.
Blu
it makes sense.
When you told yourself that "any type of infidelity would be unforgivable" -
Was it the imagined anger you had back then, preemptively, or that you assumed you just could not forgive it, or that you knew something about yourself?
Regardless, it's not as if you have to keep that "vow" to withhold forgiveness. You are re-examining a boundary that you (kind of) set for yourself many years ago.
FWIW, you'll probably do the same with your kids when they are in their teen years
and You do have choice.
Or are you wondering if you are in the "maze" and just not seeing it?
25, I don't know. My head hurts trying to think about those answers. I just don't know. I mean that. And I am so, so sad as of late. I'm not doing too well these days; having trouble sleeping and poor appetite. Feeling anxious like I did post BD. It's hard for me to post when things are not going well. I have been honest with H about my feelings. He listens, apologizes, feels like there is nothing more he can do, and so it goes. I'm tired.
I hate to let people down; it seems some of you look to me for hope. I'm sorry, but today I can't give that. I don't want to say too much more now. But I will say that there is a man giving me a lot of attention these days. I like it. The guilt I feel is tremendous. Then I feel rage at H: I am not having an A, so how could you? I don't want to hurt you, so how could you? Again, how could you do that to us? .... but I do like the attention from this man, I cannot lie. I also recognize this is making things worse .... again the guilt ... then anger .... and round I go. And no, I have not told my H about this. That's the part that feels bad.
Now listen here, I don't want all you scorned LBH to come swinging hard and telling me I'm going wayward! I am on your team, remember? I will say tho, I am starting to see how it happens. I am starting to understand how a friendship can go to an EA. I feel something shifting in me--not an A, but perhaps understanding how they work. .... . I'm so confused at the same time. Unfortunately, this confusion only pulls me further away from H. He made a choice, he wasn't a victim. Every time I allow this OM to flirt, I make a choice too.
I think it's time for a new thread. I don't know if I have the energy for a new thread. I'm tired.
Blu
Oh Blu,
No LBS negative stuff coming from me.
I actually think I GET what you are saying. I almost said to my H the day he dropped the bomb on me about the one night stand- it could just have easily happened to me.
THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE IT. But if I'm honest, there were times in my first marriage that were so awful, and I got the slightest attention from another man, I could feel the shot of adrenaline, the rush, the heat, and if they had pushed, well I don't know.
The difference is..... I did NOT cheat. I got a divorce instead. Because life was so horrible I did not even care if I lived or not.
I'm just sayin....... don't beat yourself up. You keep posting girl, and being vulnerable and honest on here. That's the only way any of us can help anyone else.
Blu I am sorry that you are struggling. I have no words to help you through.
I would comment that it is commendable that H is attentive to you and your lack of enthusiasm hasn't made his WAS self reappear. That says something about him. I also believe if reflects your own worth.
I am glad you have the courage to continue posting. There are learnings for everyone in it, plus your insight can help some people have empathy for the struggle of their own WAS.
I hope you find your way to reconnect and love him again. I don't see that happening until you can get passed the resentment you feel about his choices previously. But above all I wish you happiness.
Best wishes
Hi Blu, I too am sorry if this is a rough patch. It's a tough one for sure. His past poor choices are of course his to own - and from all that you post it sounds as though he is doing his best to invest in the R now. Your feelings and reactions about his past poor choices are of course yours to own - though his current support and behaviour is important too - ie: helping you heal.
When I thought of the possibility of XH and me reconciling - I liked to think that I could be as forgiving as the next person - perhaps more so? But it isn't easy for sure. I still feel I would be glad if things didn't work out with OW - that's not true forgiveness is it and here I am 3 years on. I still feel I wouldn't want to have to see XH and OW - even though they are very much a unit now - and if he and I had kids together, I would probably have to suck that up and get on with it...
I think I need and would like to do more reading around the whole area of forgiveness. I'd love to get to the point where I can genuinely release what has happened and truly wish them well. I'm not there yet - partly there for sure but not fully...
You may also want to take the pressure off yourself/yourselves and just coast a little too - no big decisions have to be made right now..
Take care and I value your postings and your insight as I'm sure many on the site do.
Xx
Blu, I was thinking about the loss of the "Innocence of Love" that I find myself feeling nowadays, and how you had mentioned something similar in the past. Decided to come on the board and get caught up in some sitch's and saw your last update.
I posted something similar in the past, but I was separated (Newly Separated) and the woman was newly married. I remember how fast and naturally it happened, nothing inappropriate happened, but it didn't take long before we started feeling in a way that would be inappropriate for a married Woman.
I think the only reason it stopped was because I was all to familiar with the destruction that it could cause, and I made a conscious effort to stop it, and it was oh so difficult to push her away. I sometimes wonder how that would have ended if I had met this woman before there was an A in my marriage.
I won't say what your doing makes you good or bad, I would only say that if you want to do it, don't hide it. Make that decision and let your H know if that's what you want. You get to decide what you want in life, I just hope you don't get yourself into an uncomfortable situation because you deferred making a choice.