Leahsue - Supposedly I have divorce papers on the way. I at least kept the peace with her and she wants absolutely nothing from me. When I talked to her about things after the text she sent me about the divorce I could still detect, or at least I think I can, a little anger and resentment. I know you say I am speeding up her decision to get out, but isn't that her goal with the divorce papers? She asked me just to sign them and that is it.
I have said before that I am not using it as an excuse to contact her and I really am not. Trust me when I say it's much easier to sit back and stop contact. The truth of the matter was that I was actually doing a radio silence with her when this came about. I had gone a week without texting her at all and then she sends me a text about 2 am her time to say hi. Just going no where chit chat back and forth a little and when she asked me how my day went I didn't respond because I was driving, which I did let her know. I ended up texting her about 30 min later and said goodnight because I knew she would be sleeping by then. The next day is when I got the text about the divorce papers on the way. I believe she was testing me on how I reacted to her text the night before and I don't think it wasn't the first time she did it either because she mentioned, in so many words, on the phone to me about that exact thing.
So how does letting her go and not contacting her help me in my situation? I would love to do this honestly, but I think she takes that as a sign that I simple don't care enough about her. Of course I have told her over the phone many times that it isn't true. I also think there is another guy sweet talking her too and I am sure he is also pushing for the divorce. So how does just signing the paper work and then not contacting her go in my favor? I just have the sinking feeling that it isn't the right thing to do. I am thinking of taking a week and flying out to Virginia to get face to face with her to talk about things. It's just too easy for her to be so far away and having people whisper in her ear and not have to face the music in my opinion. I feel that I have to show her that I care enough to go after her and show up, so she knows that I am true to my word about keeping the marriage going.
Your advice and Thornton's advice is to sign the paper work and stop talking to her, is that correct? My plan is to write another letter and hand deliver it to her and ask her to spend time with me to talk about things a little so I can better understand how things went wrong. I really only want to take small amounts of time while I am there to talk about things. Other than that I just want to enjoy myself and if she would tag along then I could see if we can even just have fun together still. I was also thinking that I was going to ask her to be relationship free until the divorce is final to honor the marriage and respect each other. In California it's 6 months until the divorce is final. I still remains to be seen as to what the paper work says, which she did while being in Virginia, so I have to make sure it's through California for it to be legal I believe, but not really clear on that honestly.
So how does letting her go and not contacting her help me in my situation? I would love to do this honestly, but I think she takes that as a sign that I simple don't care enough about her. Of course I have told her over the phone many times that it isn't true.
I am thinking of taking a week and flying out to Virginia to get face to face with her to talk about things.
My plan is to write another letter and hand deliver it to her and ask her to spend time with me to talk about things a little so I can better understand how things went wrong.
Why do you think that more words are the answer here?
As 25 has asked you many times, what would fundamentally be different this time?
Cali - your W isn't divorcing you because you went a few weeks of no contact.
She left you before she even left California. She had been thinking about this for a long time.
IMO, the ONLY way she might think about trying again is if she feels the full consequences of not having you in her life.
When you text her regarding her cramps "I hate those!" and "So glad you are feeling better!". It comes across as fake to me (no offense intended), and I'm sure she can see you trying to "nice" yourself back into her life.
Personally, I DB according to what I've read in Divorce Remedy. Michelle writes that she can't guarantee what will work. BUT, she can guarantee what doesn't work.
The advice that I have read regarding this stuff is pretty universal, don't chase a WAS. Google it and you will see a bunch of websites that say the same thing.
Again, not trying to rain on your parade. I know you are in pain. But please listen to the vets here, many of which have been here for years and years and have seen newbies come here trying every trick in the book to get their marriages back.
Detach. Let her go. Let her date if she wants to. True love is respecting her decision to leave you. Let her see you as a strong man capable of letting her go. And MAYBE, just maybe, she will look back at you with a new sense of respect which will in turn cause her to entertain the thought of another chance at your relationship.
Hang in there, man. We are rooting for you.
Cali - your W isn't divorcing you because you went a few weeks of no contact.
She left you before she even left California. She had been thinking about this for a long time.
IMO, the ONLY way she might think about trying again is if she feels the full consequences of not having you in her life.
When you text her regarding her cramps "I hate those!" and "So glad you are feeling better!". It comes across as fake to me (no offense intended), and I'm sure she can see you trying to "nice" yourself back into her life.
Not fake at all. First of all you have to know what I was talking about and it certainly wasn't her cramps. She has been have episodes with convulsions to the point of not being able to control herself with that comes extreme moods changes and an very quick spike in temperature to the point of fever. So yes I do hate those and she should absolutely know I do hate those. I had to bath,
feed her and carry her around so she could even function during those episodes. No matter what happens between us I don't think she deserves those!
Personally, I DB according to what I've read in Divorce Remedy. Michelle writes that she can't guarantee what will work. BUT, she can guarantee what doesn't work.
The advice that I have read regarding this stuff is pretty universal, don't chase a WAS. Google it and you will see a bunch of websites that say the same thing.
Again, not trying to rain on your parade. I know you are in pain. But please listen to the vets here, many of which have been here for years and years and have seen newbies come here trying every trick in the book to get their marriages back.
Detach. Let her go. Let her date if she wants to. True love is respecting her decision to leave you. Let her see you as a strong man capable of letting her go. And MAYBE, just maybe, she will look back at you with a new sense of respect which will in turn cause her to entertain the thought of another chance at your relationship.
Hang in there, man. We are rooting for you.
I agree that I have read the same thing many times,
but every time I have pulled further away from her it speed things up. This is the problem I have with it and the fact that all situations are different. The one coaching session I did, the coach even said that I should still contact her in my case. If she was living in the same area I could understand this much more, but she is just so far out of sight that it makes my situation that much harder.
I am really torn with what to do or even what I want anymore.
The one thing I have is my word and and the vows that I took. Just for my own self respect and well being I need to make sure I have done everything I possible could have and didn't give up on our marriage. I may have help start us in this direction, but I will not be the one who really gives up and stops trying. I wish I really knew that giving space was the right thing to do, but every time I do it seems to solidify her feelings of what she is doing as right even more. This is not just me speculating either. Through conversations with her and the fact that me not being there for her was an initial problem then I just can't shake the idea that it's might not be the right thing in my situation and I just want to do my best to make things right and really put my effort into doing the right thing.
Other than what I planned to do up above my other option that I am thinking about is exactly what you talk about. I sign the papers and never talk to her again. This just reeks of giving up to me and I refuse to be the one who gives up on the marriage. I have talked to her before about loving her enough to let her go, but it just seemed to be talk and lies like a lot of other things she says to me right now. In my heart and head I feel that I need to show that I will pursue her and love her enough to come after her. What girl doesn't want their man to fight for them and come for them. I think their is an important factor to consider here when telling me that I am doing things like others so often have that have failed. The one thing I will not do and have not done is cry, beg and plead. I have to much respect for myself to do that for anybody who is trying to leave my life. Yes I am pursuing her, but I do it in confidence and I am not weak about it. I don't put her above me or put her on a pedestal for me to bow down at her feet. When I talk to her she is the emotional one and I am the clear headed one. I am very direct with her and tell her I want to honor our vows and have faith in our marriage to work. Trails and tribulations like these will do nothing, but strengthen our relationship and bring it to a much greater understanding. I also don't have years and years of issue and failures in my marriage. It was basically a year of her feeling this way and we had only been married for 2 years. We are still pretty much newly weds. The first couple years are always the hardest, especially when one or both makes drastic changes.
Please poke as many holes in my way of thinking as possible because it really does bring my more understanding each time. I may be a little hard headed at times too.
Hi Cali,
I would just like to chime in with my opinion. The bs about pursing/fighting for the woman only works in the movies.
How about one last phone call "Honey I love you and I adore you and I want to work this out. If you think a divorce will make you happy I will sign the papers. If you change your mind in the future give me a call".
Then walk away and never look back.
All I can tell you is what I have seen in the years that I've been here.
Ultimately, only you can decide how to approach your W. And I hope you do end up reconciling.
If you have Divorce Remedy, read about the Last Resort Technique, I think it applies in your case.
I had another thought go through my head while talking with a buddy of mine last night. My wife told me that she changed for me and wasn't the person she used to be, which again I never asked her to do. I may have been looking at it in the wrong way and I have see some new insights now to that statement.
In the beginning my wife told me a few times, before we were married, that I was too good for her and she was poison to me. I didn't believe that all and told her it wasn't true. I may not have truly understood where it was coming from. So here is a little about me. I have never had drugs in my life. I have never had a sip of alcohol in my life, let alone even drink soda or anything but water for the most part. I have been eating extremely healthy since I was 12 when I decided to stop drinking soda cold turkey and eating sweets, yes my will power is that strong. I have been really into fitness and I really dedicate myself to being healthy. I have really strong morals and I am a man of my word. I'm an old school and believe in giving my word and a hand shake is enough for me to stick to what I promised someone.
My wife liked this a lot about me and would mention it often how strong I was and not just physically, but emotionally and mentally too and she looked up to it. I can see that she tried to be a better person because of it, but I think it backfired on her. She does like to drink, not to the point of being an alcoholic of course, but liked to have a few glasses of wine in the evening. It didn't bother me of course and I even poured it for her often, but she felt a bit guilty doing it I think. She has done some drugs, nothing hard, but smoked pot and she had talked about wanting to do it again thinking it would help her health issues and even her episodes she has. I could go on with more of course, but you get the idea. In a nutshell she wasn't as strong as me in a lot of ways and especially emotionally and mentally, but I accepted my wife for who she was. She is the one who made the changes to be more like me and even when she did that I accepted it, again I never asked her too.
I think she felt I was to good for her and she couldn't live up to my standards. I have never been someone to push how I do things onto others. Shoot in my family and groups of friends not one of them are to these standards, but I love them just the same. I decided it was how I was going to live my life at a very young age and that is what I have done since then. I felt that my wife and I were a good mix and evened each other out. She used to constantly tell me how good I was to her until the last year of our marriage where I pulled away from her a little bit in light of things that were happening.
Anyway I feel that this was a new realization for me and I wonder if it is true or at least how much of it was a factor.
Hi Cali,
I would just like to chime in with my opinion. The bs about pursing/fighting for the woman only works in the movies.
How about one last phone call "Honey I love you and I adore you and I want to work this out. If you think a divorce will make you happy I will sign the papers. If you change your mind in the future give me a call".
Then walk away and never look back.
The questions you need to ask yourself if you would like to "spend some time with her" is...
Does my W want to spend time with me? Or am I forcing myself on her? If my W has filed for divorce, does she want to read my letter about getting back together?
You're gonna have to be honest with yourself, Cali. Just my opinion.
All I can tell you is what I have seen in the years that I've been here.
Ultimately, only you can decide how to approach your W. And I hope you do end up reconciling.
I agree, but I think my biggest issue is that I really don't understand why it happened and why she is doing it.
Of course I know of the issues, but there hasn't been one person that knows us both and the of the situation who can understand why she is doing what she is doing. No one believes that I deserve this reaction and that it can't be worked out. This is also coming from friends of hers that live here in Cali. I think that is one of the things I struggle most with. I have talked to so many of people that I know who have been through so much worse in their marriage and they work things out. They only wished that the problems that we are dealing with was their problems too because they are so easily fixed.
Another factor is that she hasn't had the best family life either.
Her mom told her horrible things about men when she was young and I honestly think she is a bad influence on her. For goodness sake her moms best friend is a woman that is barely older than my wife and they are always our partying.
If you have Divorce Remedy, read about the Last Resort Technique, I think it applies in your case.
The last resort technique seems to work best when you at least have some kind of contact, connection or at least live in the same town. Being on opposite sides of the US doesn't work in my favor at all, so how will she ever see the changes I am making. If I just stop talking to her completely and run away just like she has then how does it help. I basically drop everything and hope that she starts thinking of me and reaching out to me. When she left she completely abandoned everything that I ever gave her too. She seemed to really want no memory or reminder of me at all, so what would ever make her start thinking of me? I suppose when she starts dating she will maybe make comparisons with me to the other guys or she will starting thinking about how I did things differently, but that is the only scenario I can think of honestly.
I agree with Thornton.
Again, the letter feels like something out of a movie where vomit your feelings all over her and she reads it, cries and comes running into your arms.
Letters equal expectations.
The questions you need to ask yourself if you would like to "spend some time with her" is...
Does my W want to spend time with me? Or am I forcing myself on her? If my W has filed for divorce, does she want to read my letter about getting back together?
You're gonna have to be honest with yourself, Cali. Just my opinion.
I agree with Thornton.
Again, the letter feels like something out of a movie where vomit your feelings all over her and she reads it, cries and comes running into your arms.
Letters equal expectations.
but it wasn't that great because it was super watered down and I was writing it consciously so to speak and not just speaking naturally. A letter doesn't equal expectations to me at all. It is speaking honestly and getting closure and that is why I want to write it so bad. It feels like getting a weight off my chest and again there will be no begging in it at all. I don't want my letter to come off in the wrong way like I am begging or, like you say, vomiting my feelings out to her and that is why I will post it up here first. I just want to state what I think and know and be done. Each time I talk to my wife about things it makes me feel better. I just want to make sure she knows that I really did love her and that I didn't mean or want for this to happen. Does that make sense?
Cali,
She has TOLD you why she doesn't want to be married to you anymore.
Just because you don't agree with her, or happen to think those reasons can be worked through, or (I can't believe you actually brought this up again, but there it is....) that your FRIENDS think she is over-reacting and that she's crazy to not want to be with you, that does NOT NEGATE the fact that she has told you she doesn't want to be married to you.
Yes, you are extremely hard-headed. Every single person on here keeps telling you the same thing- LET HER GO. Believe me, she knows you don't want the marriage to end. Be the strong man you keep reminding us that you are, and agree to give her what she keeps asking for- to be let go.
If she's ever going to change her mind, it will be if she thinks she's lost you. And if you keep pursuing her, she is never going to think that. Forget what YOU think she needs, for now.
I think everyone on here would love nothing more than to see her change her mind and come back to you. But I also think most are in agreement that you are still not listening to what you don't want to hear. I'm with LH19- if it makes you feel better, tell her ONE MORE TIME, in two sentences or less, that you would love to see the marriage survive, but if she still thinks a divorce will make her happy, respect her enough to give her that, sign the papers, and move on.
Cali - everyone here says the same thing, including me.
"All of our friends were shocked"
"Everyone thought we were the best couple"
"Even W's friends are against her"
^^^ None of that matters, Cali. Because she's gone. The relationship you had with your W was no more special than anyone else's relationship here.
Everyone here can tell you stories about how great their marriage was before the bomb.
Cali, I don't want you to think we are against you. We are offering our sincere, most honest, advice to get your W back.
If you MUST confront W with a letter etc, then go for it. But don't be surprised when she does not react the way you expect her to, she filed for divorce. She's not the same girl you married and she is not thinking like how you are used to her thinking.
^^^ That's why they call it fog. Because it's like they become the exact opposite of how we remember them.
Cali - everyone here says the same thing, including me.
"All of our friends were shocked"
"Everyone thought we were the best couple"
"Even W's friends are against her"
^^^ None of that matters, Cali. Because she's gone. The relationship you had with your W was no more special than anyone else's relationship here.
Everyone here can tell you stories about how great their marriage was before the bomb.
Cali, I don't want you to think we are against you. We are offering our sincere, most honest, advice to get your W back.
If you MUST confront W with a letter etc, then go for it. But don't be surprised when she does not react the way you expect her to, she filed for divorce. She's not the same girl you married and she is not thinking like how you are used to her thinking.
I am not expecting any kind of reaction other then she understands me and that there isn't anything left in question and I think the best way to do that is with a letter because I can say it all there and then walk away. I really do want to just hand it to her and be done with it.
^^^ That's why they call it fog. Because it's like they become the exact opposite of how we remember them.
She definitely isn't the same person in some ways.
I know she isn't thinking right and I honestly think she doesn't know what is going on let alone understand the situation.
I always thought that after BD, if I could just put the right words in the right order at the right time, my relationship could be saved. Kinda like the game Frogger -- if I could just wait and get all of the pieces in exactly the right order, iat some specific moment in time, I would be able to hop all the way across to the other side.
I really wish it worked that way. Ive read so many people only here write that "one last letter", that deep, heartfelt promise for change and I dont think Ive seen one positive response.
Like the others are saying, the most likely positive response is to let her go. My coach told me this mantra (Im kind of paraphrasing because it was a while ago that I heard this) "I dont agree that divorce is the best solution, but I love and respect you enough to let you go if that is what you choose."
Honestly, what more do you need to say than that? It conveys that you are listening. It conveys your love. It conveys your stance on divorce. Thats all you can hope to get out of a letter anyway; the rest is all wind.
I always thought that after BD, if I could just put the right words in the right order at the right time, my relationship could be saved. Kinda like the game Frogger -- if I could just wait and get all of the pieces in exactly the right order, iat some specific moment in time, I would be able to hop all the way across to the other side.
I really wish it worked that way. Ive read so many people only here write that "one last letter", that deep, heartfelt promise for change and I dont think Ive seen one positive response.
Like the others are saying, the most likely positive response is to let her go. My coach told me this mantra (Im kind of paraphrasing because it was a while ago that I heard this) "I dont agree that divorce is the best solution, but I love and respect you enough to let you go if that is what you choose."
Honestly, what more do you need to say than that? It conveys that you are listening. It conveys your love. It conveys your stance on divorce. Thats all you can hope to get out of a letter anyway; the rest is all wind.
My reason for the letter is not to get her back, but to clear the air. I feel it's my best way of having closure with this and feeling that I didn't give up.
I guess maybe I (and from the way this thread has gone, We) am confused about is what this really means. If you want to apologize for certain things, then fine [though to me, an apology is only that - you kind of send it to the abyss without any expectation].
So what do you want to say to 'clear the air' without any expectation of a response?
In a nutshell to let her know that I really did love her and she was my priority. Just to dispel some of the things she was thinking that, even though she felt they were true, they weren't. I just want her to know that she really did mean the world to me and I really wanted her to be happy. I feel the letter is the best way to do. It's kind of my way of saying goodbye I guess and it will give me closure. Does that make sense?
It does make sense but you need to remember one thing...
Her perception of you is her reality.
I don't think a letter is going to cause her some big epiphany that you really loved her. I think she already knows you loved her, you married her.
Cali
I don't think your situation and Thornton's were very similar - No offense Thornton,
Cali, you were married, your w talked specifically about what was bothering her for awhile, and she has a medical issue you continue to "treat" yourself - i.e. deny her the treatment she seeks or where, b/c you "really believe" you are right and she is wrong.
Hey, I don't mean to hit you when you are down, and I know you are down. I'm sorry buddy.
I never understood why you didn't fly out way back when, and I will never understand why you didn't switch jobs.
But I accept those were your choices and here you are.
So, what now?
You need to start the healing process no matter what, AND you need to decide IF you want to wait things out and only work on yourself ---
or what?
What are you will to DO if there is no guarantee of getting her back?
PS
I do not think a letter will achieve anything at all, and you will again be banking on something that's got no chance of creating some seismic change in her.
IF this is all about her own issues and nothing at all about living far from her parents and family and friends....
and nothing at all to do with your marriage,
then time will reveal that and MAYBE she will look you up in a year, or 5.
meanwhile, what are you going to do and again, seriously,
how would the marriage be different now than before?
Please please be specific
PS
I do not think a letter will achieve anything at all, and you will again be banking on something that's got no chance of creating some seismic change in her.
IF this is all about her own issues and nothing at all about living far from her parents and family and friends....
and nothing at all to do with your marriage,
then time will reveal that and MAYBE she will look you up in a year, or 5.
meanwhile, what are you going to do and again, seriously,
how would the marriage be different now than before?
Please please be specific
I really do think she hasn't and still doesn't know herself and it's happy inside. When we first started dating she told me she was screwed up and asked if I could help her. She was going through some depression and I told I would be there for her.
In 1 year or 5 years I will be living my life for the better with or without her and I am not such a person to sit around and wait on her. I will give it the 6 months until the divorce is final and that's all I care to do. If she decides to look me up down the road it better be quick because I will definitely be moving on. I don't force people to be in my life or to like me. People like that are not worth it to me. Once I make up my mind on someone not being worth it she will have a lot of changing to do. If she tries to get back with me and I am not involved with someone else by that time and I actually agree to give it another try it will be on my terms.
I am the only one who is learning from this situation and the only one who is honestly changing for the better. She is going to have the same issues she has with me in her next relationship and if it's with the guy I think it is it won't last long. She is way to smart for him and out of his league. The first sign of her back problem I know he won't pick her up and carry her on his back. The first time he see's one of her episodes he will tuck tail and run. That is the kind of guy he is. She will find it's not greener on the other side. He won't have a family that is like mine to support her 100% either. This guy is no good for her, but he is saying what she wants to hear, so be it. My wife needs to find happiness in herself before she will ever be able to be happy with someone else. The next time she has an issue she will do the same thing and start shedding things and run away from it instead of facing it and learning to work to get better.
If there is a new light that I have started to look at my wife in it is that of being a coward.... unfortunately. I at least, even in the light of a bleak future, with all my wife's problems didn't run from it and instead stepped up to take care of her. It's going to be a very rude awakening for my wife when other guys don't want to have to deal with the kind of baggage she is bringing along. It will be her loss for not trying to better herself when she had the chance. I will not fall victim to that!
I had another thought go through my head while talking with a buddy of mine last night. My wife told me that she changed for me and wasn't the person she used to be, which again I never asked her to do. I may have been looking at it in the wrong way and I have see some new insights now to that statement.
In the beginning my wife told me a few times, before we were married, that I was too good for her and she was poison to me. I didn't believe that all and told her it wasn't true. I may not have truly understood where it was coming from. So here is a little about me.
I have never had drugs in my life. I have never had a sip of alcohol in my life, let alone even drink soda or anything but water for the most part. I have been eating extremely healthy since I was 12 when I decided to stop drinking soda cold turkey and eating sweets, yes my will power is that strong. I have been really into fitness and I really dedicate myself to being healthy.
my h could have written this^^^. He'd mention my weight (I'm not heavy, either). He would hurt and subtly control/ shame me. Constantly discussing "healthy foods" and "bad ones". Our d's have food issues and struggle to not feel guilty about their food choices. No sugar, soda or gluten for the strong willed people, (b/c only weak people eat that...was the message.)
I would not date a man who told me he was "dedicated himself to being healthy" if he weren't a physical trainer and even then... I'd see it as extreme, and imbalanced. Not at all moderate.
These^^ are insights for sure...but perhaps not the ones you are believing...
I have really strong morals
or, could they be seen as "rigid rules which I unspokenly lord over others" ???
and I am a man of my word. I'm an old school and believe in giving my word and a hand shake is enough for me to stick to what I promised someone.
My wife liked this a lot about me and would mention it often how strong I was and not just physically, but emotionally and mentally too and she looked up to it.
men like being admired by their wives. I understand this. But when the need for the admiration gets too high on the "strong" person's part, or the acceptance of the other NOT being as rigid gets too low, problems ensue
I can see that she tried to be a better person because of it, but I think it backfired on her.
Backfired on whom?
She does like to drink, not to the point of being an alcoholic of course, but liked to have a few glasses of wine in the evening. It didn't bother me of course and I even poured it for her often, but she felt a bit guilty doing it I think.
why did you pour her drinks and allow her to feel guilty about it?
How reassuring Were you to her that it was not a "flaw in her" which having some wine reflected, but an actual choice an adult woman is entitled to make and not be judged for?
She has done some drugs, nothing hard, but smoked pot and she had talked about wanting to do it again thinking it would help her health issues and even her episodes she has.
I could go on with more of course, but you get the idea. In a nutshell she wasn't as strong as me in a lot of ways
oh really? I do not read this as you being strong. I read this^^ as judgmental rigidity on your end. I'm sorry but this is news to me.
Btw, I had grand mal seizures for the first time in my life just 7 months ago, & my neurologist flat out asked me if I'd consider using "medical marijuana, not the kind you buy off the street b/c that may have additives. Almost a 1/3 of my patients respond well to it..."
(My kids were delighted to hear this, of course).
and especially emotionally and mentally, but I accepted my wife for who she was. She is the one who made the changes to be more like me and even when she did that I accepted it, again I never asked her too.
with your attitude, how could she not feel a"need to change"?? Do you hear yourself?
This^^ information is new to me, btw.
I think she felt I was to good for her and she couldn't live up to my standards.
I have never been someone to push how I do things onto others.
these^^ 2 sentences flat out contradict each other.
Shoot in my family and groups of friends not one of them are to these standards, but I love them just the same.
Cali, listen to yourself.
-She used to constantly tell me how good I was to her until the last year of our marriage where I pulled away from her a little bit in light of things that were happening.
To put it another way, "when she did not live up to MY standards I pulled away & withheld my love for her.
I did not love them the same at all.
....
Anyway I feel that this was a new realization for me and I wonder if it is true or at least how much of it was a factor.
I know you are hurt but man, there is some justifiable pain in your w and it's Not all about her emotional/mental illness which you've pretty much said all along.
You were generic about your role but this now makes more sense. which is actually good news for you in the long run.
much to ponder, wouldn't you say?
25, I was really wondering when, and if, you would show up here again. Geez, you have talked and talked to Cali, and he is STILL NOT LISTENING to you, or any of the rest of us. I'm glad you checked back in. I know you have your own hurts going on right now, but you are still hanging in there, trying to help the rest of us.
I'm so very, very thankful, for you.
Cali, PLEASE listen to her.
She is wise, and knows of what she speaks.
But, hey, you go ahead and write that letter, and hand-deliver it to her, and then sit and wait for the reaction that you are obviously looking for her to deliver..... and then we will still be here for you.
Best of luck, friend. And I mean that sincerely. You can't say we haven't ALL given it the old college try.
It's as if no one hears what I am saying about the letter. I don't give a damn about her reaction to it because it is for me. I want to get thing off my chest and clear things up she thought that are simply not true.
Now 25year you told me earlier to go see her and everyone else is saying not too, so what is it?
Thinking you know me by what I wrote up above isn't even close. This is the problem with writing a letter and why I am being so careful in writing it. Because I have standards for myself that I keep has nothing to do with how I treat other people. That is just ridiculous. I never pushed my wife to change or be different because of the way I want to live. No one knows of my standards unless they ask me directly.
Do you think for one minute that I would actually want to marry someone I couldn't stand how they lived? My wife was also a health nut in her own way. She was an extremely healthy eater and cook. She was crazy about what we had to clean ourselves and our house and would get down right angry if I used something she considered a chemical to clean the house. I don't judge people for what they want to do. I would say that there is more judgment past towards me because I am so clean in my living. I get people telling me "I can't trust someone who doesn't drink" kind of crap all the time, but who cares!
I never shamed my wife about her looks or weight. My wife is absolutely gorgeous! I don't talk about health foods or even discuss it. I eat how I'm going to eat and my wife ate what she wanted to eat. Of course she couldn't have gluten or dairy because she was allergic to them. Your husband sounds pushy and calling people weak for eating what they wanted.... I have never done that. I just told you that I have a very strong will to do what I do. I would never think someone is imbalanced for eating healthy and being healthy.
Saying that I would lord over people because I have strong morals for myself is not right either. Why would you come to that conclusion? I don't worry about what other do in their life. I am merely explaining that because I was in such a way with the way I lived my life, my wife tried to change to be more like me and in turn felt she couldn't keep up with it. She never told me this, but this what I have concluded in putting two and two together.
I never asked or needed for my wife to admire me I was just telling you what she told me. It was simply her stating that she admired those qualities above and it was probably because I wasn't an A-hole about it. I know what it would be like to be pressured by people to be a certain way and it [censored]. You don't think that people constantly tried to pressure me to drink or take drugs? I got it all the time, especially when people find out I have never done either one before. I was strong willed and I stayed true to what I wanted to do for myself. Why would I want to lord over others and try to push them into how I lived my life? That is way more work than it is worth. If I naturally influence someone to be healthier just by being around them than that is fine, but trying to control is over the top and I wouldn't waste my time on it.
I poured her drinks because she asked me to do it for her. Most of the time she was all snuggled up on the couch with a good book and would ask me to do it for her. I was being a good husband. She felt guilty all on her own because she would finish a bottle of wine and say so. This had nothing to do with me. I didn't have to be reassuring to her. If she wanted to drink wine she drank wine. It was totally up to her. The only time I would ever mention anything about her drinking is if she was out with friends and I wasn't there to just be careful and if she drinks to much to call me.
I must have done a horrible job in writing that or I was just to straight forward and blunt because I seem to have painted myself in a horrible light. My wife had her own standards and I had nothing to do with that. She came with them and it wasn't a factor in why I chose her. I liked the fact that my wife wasn't exactly the same as me because it brought variety into my life. I think that sometimes what I write is looked at a little to deeply and things get skewed. I pulled away from my wife because of multiple reasons and none of them were because she didn't live up to my so called standards. She knew exactly how I was before we started dating let alone got married and she still chose me too.
You keep saying this is news to me. What do you mean by that? Do you now think I am pushy controlling over lord of my wife?
Exactly what do you mean by this is good for me in the long run. You have to be much clearer with me as you guys have pointed out I am hard headed.
Leahsue - 25year has been here the whole time and comments the most often which I really appreciate. I hope I don't come off as being rude to people because I kind of got that feeling.
What I am ultimately gathering from being on here is that I just need to be divorced and ignore that I even had a wife and move on as the best option. It seems so much like giving up and I'm not talking about begging my wife. I am just talking about showing that I still love her. Walking away sends a clear message to her that she really doesn't matter to me. This kind of thinking has been told to me by my wife. That she never mattered to me and I really didn't care because of the issues we had. Yet I am here getting advice by everyone to just walk away and hope she comes around. This is why I am so on the fence with it.
It's getting to the point to where I am tired of even thinking about it and I am looking everyday for those divorce papers to show up. I don't want and have never wanted to force my wife to love me let alone to just like me. I seemed to be confused with contradicting info on the dating sights I have been through and what you guys say and what the one coaching session I had. The most pleasing idea to me is not go dark. It just seems like the easiest thing to do, but it also feels like it isn't quite right in my situation. The more I have detached from my wife the more it seems I have pushed her away to the point of her now actually wanting a divorce.
Correction to the to above. I meant "The most pleasing thing to me is to go dark."
Hi Cali, sorry you are having a rough time of things. I just want to chip in that (in general) I don't think letter writing is a good idea - other than to perhaps get things off your chest and then burn the letter if that helps. I journaled a lot in the early days and it does help to get all these whirling thoughts from the mind, through the hand and onto paper or screen.
We don't need to include our spouse in that and I think it is best we don't.
I haven't read your whole sitch, just your last post - but it sounds as though there has been some feeback from posters, which may have stung....normally that's the stuff that may well be worth exploring.
From what you post, it sounds as though you are wanting to prod and poke at your situation to 'move it' towards an outcome. Actually, it is often much better to step back and do nothing, let some time pass. It is hard to achieve that, as we feel such a drive to do 'something' - but I have found peace and strength in letting things go, working on me and rebuilding my own life.
I can remember watching the post box, wondering if divorce papers might be in there - and it isn't nice. Mine came by email in the end, and I was kind of glad that I only had them as 'virtual' papers!
I would encourage you to keep posting and carry on with DB coach sessions too. Try and manage your frustration and explore things that others are suggesting to you. In general, it is best not to try to 'do something about' your situation - and to try to 'do things for yourself.' In my situation, I did sit back a lot, let XH initiate, responded minimally and pleasantly - and (really important) set about rebuilding my own life without him. Now, he never did turn back to the marriage, and that was always up to him as it is any spouse. But as time has passed, I have come to see that what really matters to me is what I have learned from this difficult period, who I managed to be, how I handled myself, whether I am at peace with my choices..
XH has become someone who came and went from my life - as people may do. And I am fine with that. I dug deep and followed advice to try and save my marriage and it mattered to me a lot. There is peace in knowing that too - I did all that I could.
So - the biggest message - try and take the focus off her and off needing to do something, anything about your situation. Instead step back, let go and leave her be. Start to make plans for yourself and how you want your life to become in the event she doesn't turn back. She may or she may not. And if she does, you can consider things at that point....no harm done....and you will have moved forward in any case and seen that a good life without her is entirely possible.
Best of luck with things :-)
Cali,
If I was too harsh with you yesterday in my comments, I apologize. I've been following your posts from the very beginning and have read anything others replied to you.
You have to do what feels right to you, and I respect that.
Best of luck to you!
Cali,
If I was too harsh with you yesterday in my comments, I apologize. I've been following your posts from the very beginning and have read anything others replied to you.
You have to do what feels right to you, and I respect that.
Best of luck to you!
Hi Cali, sorry you are having a rough time of things. I just want to chip in that (in general) I don't think letter writing is a good idea - other than to perhaps get things off your chest and then burn the letter if that helps. I journaled a lot in the early days and it does help to get all these whirling thoughts from the mind, through the hand and onto paper or screen.
We don't need to include our spouse in that and I think it is best we don't.
I have read in other places that it can be a powerful tool, but either way it's for me so I can have closure. I haven't read your whole sitch, just your last post - but it sounds as though there has been some feeback from posters, which may have stung....normally that's the stuff that may well be worth exploring.
The feedback is fine. It's just that what I write is sometimes taken out of context and it's obviously my writing skills aren't cutting it. I don't have problems admitting when I am wrong.
From what you post, it sounds as though you are wanting to prod and poke at your situation to 'move it' towards an outcome. Actually, it is often much better to step back and do nothing, let some time pass. It is hard to achieve that, as we feel such a drive to do 'something' - but I have found peace and strength in letting things go, working on me and rebuilding my own life.
I'm just trying to do the right thing for myself and my wife. I don't want to be the one who truly gives up and dishonors the vows we took. I don't believe in that and I want to be true to what I promised my wife. Yes I know I obviously did things wrong, but I would have never left my marriage. Walking away and doing nothing has been the one thing so far that has actually pushed and prodded my situation forward. At least this is what I saw. As soon as I stopped contacting her she brings up divorce talk. I try it again and she goes ahead with it and doesn't even mention it to me. I can remember watching the post box, wondering if divorce papers might be in there - and it isn't nice. Mine came by email in the end, and I was kind of glad that I only had them as 'virtual' papers!
I'm not wondering if they are coming. My wife told me I would be getting them this last week, but I have got nothing so far.I would encourage you to keep posting and carry on with DB coach sessions too. Try and manage your frustration and explore things that others are suggesting to you. In general, it is best not to try to 'do something about' your situation - and to try to 'do things for yourself.' In my situation, I did sit back a lot, let XH initiate, responded minimally and pleasantly - and (really important) set about rebuilding my own life without him. Now, he never did turn back to the marriage, and that was always up to him as it is any spouse. But as time has passed, I have come to see that what really matters to me is what I have learned from this difficult period, who I managed to be, how I handled myself, whether I am at peace with my choices..
XH has become someone who came and went from my life - as people may do. And I am fine with that. I dug deep and followed advice to try and save my marriage and it mattered to me a lot. There is peace in knowing that too - I did all that I could.
So - the biggest message - try and take the focus off her and off needing to do something, anything about your situation. Instead step back, let go and leave her be. Start to make plans for yourself and how you want your life to become in the event she doesn't turn back. She may or she may not. And if she does, you can consider things at that point....no harm done....and you will have moved forward in any case and seen that a good life without her is entirely possible.
My life certainly hasn't stopped or even hiccuped other than the fact that I am doing things now that my wife used to do around the house. I'm not sulking in my house crying over anything. I'm sure it's hard for people to believe, but it's the absolute truth. I still very much enjoy myself and my life! My wife left and yeah it [censored], but there is nothing I can do about it and life goes on. I actually would have let my wife go from the get go until I run into this site. I was actually looking up how to go about the divorce and what to watch out for when I found Divorce Busting. I started reading things and people situations and thinking maybe I should be doing this. Before that I told my wife that it wasn't good that she was leaving and if she does don't expect me to go after her. I also told her if she tries to come back and her key doesn't work anymore than she has her answer. That reminds me that I should ask for my keys to the house back from her and her parents.
I know everyone on this site means well, but how many on here have actually had this work for reconciling their marriage. I know it is mainly for getting people out of the dumps and make them feel better again, which is great. I am not depressed. Don't get me wrong the house is much quieter with out her here and I do miss her, but I am doing just fine. 
Best of luck with things :-)
Just curious, but how many people have actually had these techniques work and get their marriage back on track and actually have it stick and not just end in a divorce again? I know the real goal is helping yourself, but how successful is it in getting a marriage to reconcile?
My main goal is for my marriage to reconcile. Not sure if you guys would believe me or not when I say that I am just fine and living my life as usual. I do have a new understanding of how things went in my marriage and what mistakes I won't make again, but I am not in need of getting my life back on track other then having my wife want to work things out. My weeks are filled with friends, family, working out and enjoying my regular activities that I have always enjoyed.
I hope this doesn't come off as cocky, rude, or a straight out lie, but this is the truth in my eyes. I may not be on here much longer since it's seems to be not working out for me and once I sign the divorce papers and I choose to walk away from it there won't be a need for me to be here. I just won't have anything to share anymore. I know that it's important for people to stick around for a little while to help others out, but it seems that I don't get it, so I'm not sure I would help anyone anyway. I suppose if in the near future my wife wants to work things out then I might be able to help people with what happened and what we are going through to fix things, so you would see me again at that point.
I can recall Starsky, a former poster posting along these lines once..
He said that at BD your odds of the marriage being saved may be at around 5-10%
DBing helps increase those odds - maybe to around 20-25% - particularly if you are willing to stand for a good while in the face of seemingly little/no hope...
The chances of 'saving yourself' through DBing are extremely high - say around 90%..
I'm not quoting the exact percentages, but this was broadly what he posted. Actually a minority of marriages get saved here. However, it isn't uncommon for the LBS to stand for a while, give up, move on, and then the WAS turn back to the relationship? But sometimes the door is then closed by the LBS and the WAS goes through the same kind of grieving.
Really, most situations don't resolve quickly and I can recall Wonka once posting that 9 months plus would be the earliest time - and many are longer than that. Really where there is an active A, that needs time to run it's course, for most A's don't settle down into sustainable and rewarding relationships. I recall reading a piece of research once, that said after 7 years only 3% of A's had continued into R's. A tiny percentage, but seven years is also a long time!
I hope you'll stick around, even if things don't turn for your marriage in the shorter term, but it's always up to you of course.
Well it now seems that my wife has completely cut me off, so who is using "going dark"? Haha! She won't respond to the simplest of text, like having a good weekend? She couldn't give me the respect to do a face to face and runs away and now she can't even give me the respect to return a text. Still haven't seen any divorce papers and even after that there are still things we will have to discuss. For one next year I am going to need info for doing taxes and we still have to file jointly. I guess this is what I get.... I feel sad for her in a way that she has no one around her who is pro-marriage and that encouraged her to do things the right way.
Has anyone been in my situation where there is nothing connecting you with your wife, so that there has to be some kind of communication with her? They moved very far away and started ignoring you. It seems I am being forced into going dark by her actions rather than by mine.
You seem to think that if you keep asking the same questions you will get different answers. You say you'll be fine without her. Prove it. Prove it yourself and to her.
You seem to think that if you keep asking the same questions you will get different answers. You say you'll be fine without her. Prove it. Prove it yourself and to her.
I am doing fine without her. I'm just annoyed that she is ignoring me I guess. Going dark it is, but I am in need of something she has of mine. All I want to do is keep the peace so she won't want to change the terms of the divorce, but she is ignoring me. I want what she accidentally took from the house when she left. She said she would mail it back right away, but that was over a month ago.
You seem to think that if you keep asking the same questions you will get different answers. You say you'll be fine without her. Prove it. Prove it yourself and to her.
I am doing fine without her.
I'm just annoyed that she is ignoring me I guess. Going dark it is, but I am in need of something she has of mine. All I want to do is keep the peace so she won't want to change the terms of the divorce, but she is ignoring me. I want what she accidentally took from the house when she left. She said she would mail it back right away, but that was over a month ago.
if it's not a live animal, what difference does waiting a few weeks or months make?
You seem to think that if you keep asking the same questions you will get different answers. You say you'll be fine without her. Prove it. Prove it yourself and to her.
I am doing fine without her.
I'm just annoyed that she is ignoring me I guess. Going dark it is, but I am in need of something she has of mine. All I want to do is keep the peace so she won't want to change the terms of the divorce, but she is ignoring me. I want what she accidentally took from the house when she left. She said she would mail it back right away, but that was over a month ago.
if it's not a live animal, what difference does waiting a few weeks or months make?Because it's my Social Security Card, she has no business having it. Makes a lot of difference!
Yes Cali, I have experience in living across the country from my H, having no children or custody to share, and no real reason for contact.
In the beginning I made up reasons as an excuse to get SOMETHING out of him, but I learned (not so quickly) that it had a negative effect. When I stopped that, after a couple of months, he finally came above ground with a text- How was your day?
Yes Cali, I have experience in living across the country from my H, having no children or custody to share, and no real reason for contact.
In the beginning I made up reasons as an excuse to get SOMETHING out of him, but I learned (not so quickly) that it had a negative effect. When I stopped that, after a couple of months, he finally came above ground with a text- How was your day?
Well it now seems that my wife has completely cut me off, so who is using "going dark"? Haha! She won't respond to the simplest of text, like having a good weekend? She couldn't give me the respect to do a face to face and runs away and now she can't even give me the respect to return a text.
Cali, please stop trying to control her or manipulate the outcome. She NOW wants her freedom and she told you to your face about what she needed inside the marriage while still out there. She complained a lot about it and she was not well there, either.
She does not want to return to the west coast & even though I LOVE the west coast, imo she had good reasons for wanting to be where she is now.
But moving back there or staying there is clearly your main goal.
The impasse continues, so now she's just wanting her freedom. She obviously wants to avoid having the same conversation.
Still haven't seen any divorce papers and even after that there are still things we will have to discuss. For one next year I am going to need info for doing taxes and we still have to file jointly. [/b]
Are you annoyed she has not filed? Because if you want the divorce or just can't handle uncertainty, you can file yourself.
But you may want to look at this inability to accept uncertainty even for short times,
OR maybe you can learn to let go of the need to control the outcome (and her).
As for "next year's" taxes, come on Cali. I know this hurts. But take a step back, take a breath and look at your comments and behavior...
I guess this is what I get.... I feel sad for her in a way that she has no one around her who is pro-marriage and that encouraged her to do things the right way.
Cali, and what would the "right way" have looked like? (Do You mean, your way or just not leaving at all, or what?)
She told you to your face what she was missing while she was out there married to you.
She was missing time together, her family, her support system back east, she was lonely & you were gone a lot.
From what I've read, you have made no sincere effort to change the fundamentals of this, until after she left.
And even then...you didn't fly out and say "OMG I get it now. We will sell the house and move back here, whatever it takes for you to get the help you need/want"
Yes, we all know you don't believe that's ^^what she needs, but she does. And when it comes to HER needs/wants, her beliefs matter more. They just do.
You still go on at great lengths to avoid the BIG issue and talk about other generic "things you have learned" but unless I missed something in the last 2 days, it's just not persuasive.
I don't see her behavior as dishonorable. I see it as her trying to be in control of her own life.
What am I missing?
Hi Cali,
I would just like to chime in with my opinion. The bs about pursing/fighting for the woman only works in the movies.
How about one last phone call "Honey I love you and I adore you and I want to work this out. If you think a divorce will make you happy I will sign the papers. If you change your mind in the future give me a call".
Then walk away and never look back.
Cali's w suffers from severe depression, among other things. She told Calif she misses her family and she does not want to live in California again, in part b/c Cali's hours $uck and he's gone for days at a time.
She informed him that she has been lonely a lot. Nothing changed.
Until she left, Cali made no changes at all, and still insists she should return AND then they will work on things....never addressing the fundamental problem underlying all else. Because he does not agree that is what she needs...
She wants to be near her support system back east. Cali thinks that's a bad idea.
He says they/he will lose money by leaving the west coast, (which may well be true)
and besides, he has a good job in California and does not have a good job back east which he (sort of?) looked for. Cali believes she is irrational about wanting to live back east but his view of California is completely based on empirical research and knowledge and data and she "should" want to want what he does.
Cali also says he has "high moral standards" BUT he "loved others -with lower standards-, all the same"....
"never asked her to change"....but "She may have felt inferior"...
this is not about a woman being selfish.
I think telling him to act as if this is all about her, seems off the mark to me. OR like the whole thread has not been followed.
No offense Cali but if you get nothing else out of this painful ordeal, I hope it will be some self awareness about what you create in your life.
My h has said MANY times he's "Never failed at anything" and cites his professional and physical achievements, if asked...
oh, but he has failed...and now that he's in a new r, with a new admiring fan base,
he will not look at or admit they were HIS failures. He will never need to learn from failures,
which is something all great people do.
Just so everyone knows I am going to completely walk away from my wife now. I took my ring off yesterday and put it away. I have been working on a letter, but I feel less and less of a need to send it.
Leahsue- Just curious, but was there another woman involved in your situation?
I haven't had my social security card in over 10 years. If it matters that much, go to the Social Security Administration and get another one. That, and the tax business, are just excuses.
Hi Cali,
I would just like to chime in with my opinion. The bs about pursing/fighting for the woman only works in the movies.
How about one last phone call "Honey I love you and I adore you and I want to work this out. If you think a divorce will make you happy I will sign the papers. If you change your mind in the future give me a call".
Then walk away and never look back.
Cali's w suffers from severe depression, among other things. She told Calif she misses her family and she does not want to live in California again, in part b/c Cali's hours $uck and he's gone for days at a time.
She informed him that she has been lonely a lot. Nothing changed.
Until she left, Cali made no changes at all, and still insists she should return AND then they will work on things....never addressing the fundamental problem underlying all else. Because he does not agree that is what she needs...
She wants to be near her support system back east. Cali thinks that's a bad idea.
The problem I have with a lot of this that her support system you like to say she needs or has has never been there for her in the first place. Her family life has been pretty non existent.
She has never had very many close friends because her all controlling mother scared them away. This is a topic of conversation within her family and I have been apart of it many times. She hardly ever see's her brother because he was kicked out of the house a long time ago. Sister lives a few states away from her now and has never even had a holiday with her entire family, let alone her mom sticking around for one. Majority of her holidays have been spent with her and her dad while the mother was off with friends somewhere else.
It's a fact that the first birthday party she has ever had with friends was when she moved here and I invited all she knew and her one best friend from Virginia showed up too. These are details that I know about her and her family life which she talked me about not having much of one many times to me and the rest of my family. When she first moved here it was hard for her to get used to doing so many family things together like my family does. She often complained about it because we were always busy with it. So tell me how that fits the bill now? Everything she says about family issues just seems like a big excuse and if you blame me for seeing that way when I know her family life sucked then how should I view it. She doesn't even have the decency to reach out to my family during this whole thing at all. I didn't do the same and I did what was right by my standards and reached out to her family just to even to apologize to them for the way things went. He says they/he will lose money by leaving the west coast, (which may well be true)
and besides, he has a good job in California and does not have a good job back east which he (sort of?) looked for. Cali believes she is irrational about wanting to live back east but his view of California is completely based on empirical research and knowledge and data and she "should" want to want what he does.
This is just not true. I will lose my house if I leave California and lose money on that if that is what you mean. My job follows me where ever I go, so I can live on the East or West coast and make the same amount of money. I'm not sure where you got that from. My wife is fully aware of this because she once did the same job. Cali also says he has "high moral standards" BUT he "loved others -with lower standards-, all the same"....
"never asked her to change"....but "She may have felt inferior"...
this is not about a woman being selfish.
This is what gets me and what I mean by my writing skills $ucks! I was trying to see it from her perspective and not mine. That has nothing to do with how I actually think or how I saw it. She said things to me about not being good enough for me and being poison to me a few times. I always told her this is not true at all. That popped into my head the other day and I start to contemplate it. I was trying to think of how maybe she saw things. especially from her depressed views and low self esteem. I am not sure if it's how I am typing things out or bringing it across the table, but things are definitely skewed in your eyes about what I am saying or at least trying to say. What am I doing wrong in trying to get my point across? I am at a loss here. I think telling him to act as if this is all about her, seems off the mark to me. OR like the whole thread has not been followed.
No offense Cali but if you get nothing else out of this painful ordeal, I hope it will be some self awareness about what you create in your life.
My h has said MANY times he's "Never failed at anything" and cites his professional and physical achievements, if asked...
oh, but he has failed...and now that he's in a new r, with a new admiring fan base,
he will not look at or admit they were HIS failures. He will never need to learn from failures,
which is something all great people do.
but needed to eat and a car to get around and to pay for her hospital visits.
I mean no offense to you either 25year because I know you are honestly trying to help and I really really appreciate it, but your understanding of my character is not always right.
I will admit when I am wrong, which I have done to my wife many times, but the blame is never rarely solely on one persons shoulders. Even the DR book says that by explaining how one persons actions effect the other and a round and a round we go! I am stubborn, but not to a point where I can never do no wrong and I see what I did wrong in the marriage and I won't make the same mistakes again.
I mainly didn't love my wife in the right way. That isn't to say I wasn't loving her or less, but I needed to approach it differently than I did. If I would have learned that in time then all of the issue we are supposedly having would have been drastically different. I know this because of what my wife has said to me. You knwo what would be awesome? If you had the chance to talk to my wife and get her perspective on me. I would love to hear what it would be, but of course I know that isn't even remotely going to happen. It's just talking hypothetically, but I think you would have a different view of this situation I'm in and maybe not think I am so crazy after all.
I haven't had my social security card in over 10 years. If it matters that much, go to the Social Security Administration and get another one. That, and the tax business, are just excuses.
You clearly don't need it like I do for my job. Just because you don't need yours doesn't mean I don't need mine. Why should I have to go through the extra effort when she can just mail it to me. Tax business is a fact, not an excuse. By the time tax time comes around again do you think I will actually want to talk to my ex wife? Give me a little break!
I just got a message that she is trying to transfer her phone line to her dads account. Does anyone know how this will effect me? Should I just go in and cancel her account now? I don't want to be stuck paying, but I also don't want to make her angry either since I still don't have the divorce papers.
I haven't had my social security card in over 10 years. If it matters that much, go to the Social Security Administration and get another one. That, and the tax business, are just excuses.
You clearly don't need it like I do for my job. Just because you don't need yours doesn't mean I don't need mine. Why should I have to go through the extra effort when she can just mail it to me. Tax business is a fact, not an excuse. By the time tax time comes around again do you think I will actually want to talk to my ex wife? Give me a little break!
Cali, if you need it that bad for your job, you wouldn't be wasting time texting her for it. You keep getting no response and no SS card, so by now, if you went to the SS administration, you would have it.
We all did those things. Finding a reason for contact. Something we need. We shouldn't have to do it, they should do it. been there done that, have the T-shirt.
Well, she's not doing it. So, you can take care of it yourself, especially if you need it that bad.
Cali,
To answer your question about another woman in my situation- to my knowledge there is no continuing "other woman". There very well could be, but our issue seems to be more about how we grew apart once we had two places to live, and I foolishly spent too much time here doing what I thought we both wanted, which was to fix this house and prepare to possibly flip it. He came to me in late December and said he's had a one night stand, and he had a lot of shame about that and wanted a separation. So as far as I know, there is no current "other woman", but like I said, if I've learned anything, it's to never be foolish and think I have the whole picture. Others on here have told me that I am foolish to think there is no current other woman, and have said that there is ALWAYS someone else, and they may be right, but I'm assuming that if that is the case, he will eventually ask for a divorce and stop talking about R. In the meantime, even if there is, there's not much I could do to change that or stop it, so I've tried to just not let my mind worry about that piece. It will work itself out.
Cali,
To answer your question about another woman in my situation- to my knowledge there is no continuing "other woman". There very well could be, but our issue seems to be more about how we grew apart once we had two places to live, and I foolishly spent too much time here doing what I thought we both wanted, which was to fix this house and prepare to possibly flip it. He came to me in late December and said he's had a one night stand, and he had a lot of shame about that and wanted a separation. So as far as I know, there is no current "other woman", but like I said, if I've learned anything, it's to never be foolish and think I have the whole picture. Others on here have told me that I am foolish to think there is no current other woman, and have said that there is ALWAYS someone else, and they may be right, but I'm assuming that if that is the case, he will eventually ask for a divorce and stop talking about R. In the meantime, even if there is, there's not much I could do to change that or stop it, so I've tried to just not let my mind worry about that piece. It will work itself out.
OK, thank you for your response. I think it depends on how they are acting. My wife is acting like there is someone else involved. I at least know for sure that she spends a lot of time texting and talking to another man, which seems like the beginning of a relationship to me. My situation seems so different and it seems like what I am told to do on here turns opposite results unless I want to be divorced then it's perfect.
Of course I don't know for sure that is true, but I am only looking at what I see and what has happened. Funny thing is I was talking to a friend about things last night because he calls every now and then to ask about the situation. His wife was also good friends with my wife. They both can't understand why any of it is happening, it truly baffles them and especially his wife. They have a pact to be able to talk to one person in their life about anything in their marriage and they chose me and and my wife. Long story short my wife and my buddies wife have had lots of marriage conversations and nothing my wife is doing right now matches any thing she said before, it's the exact opposite actually. Anyway the funny thing is that my buddy and his wife both said, after listening to the current situation that they think my wife wants to be pursued. I told them that everyone on here disagree's and it's a major no no, but they stuck to that idea.
It's interesting the different perspectives you get from people.
She wants to be pursued? Why move across the country and file for divorce and talk to another man if she wants to be pursued by the person she doesn't want to be with?
Ultimately, if you feel DBing is giving you the opposite results that you are expecting, maybe you should consider pursuing her.
I know not pursuing feels like the exact opposite of what your feelings are telling you.
My W has left 3x. I was able to get back with her 2x. Wanna know what did it? Complete and total NC both times. And I mean total NC (for months on end). Both times she started poking around again.
I remember feeling the exact same way as you. Wasn't I sending the message that I didn't care? What if she found someone else? How to I not fight for the woman I love?
Actually, I was showing her that I loved her and respected her decision to be away from me by staying out of her way. She wanted out and I honored that.
Remember, just because you wife hasn't come running back in the few months that you have been here doesnt mean she won't. In fact, I would go as far to say most of the reconciliations that I have seen have been after years apart.
She wants to be pursued? Why move across the country and file for divorce and talk to another man if she wants to be pursued by the person she doesn't want to be with?
Ultimately, if you feel DBing is giving you the opposite results that you are expecting, maybe you should consider pursuing her.
I know not pursuing feels like the exact opposite of what your feelings are telling you.
My W has left 3x. I was able to get back with her 2x. Wanna know what did it? Complete and total NC both times. And I mean total NC (for months on end). Both times she started poking around again.
I remember feeling the exact same way as you. Wasn't I sending the message that I didn't care? What if she found someone else? How to I not fight for the woman I love?
Actually, I was showing her that I loved her and respected her decision to be away from me by staying out of her way. She wanted out and I honored that.
Remember, just because you wife hasn't come running back in the few months that you have been here doesnt mean she won't. In fact, I would go as far to say most of the reconciliations that I have seen have been after years apart.
Thanks for that insight Thornton, this is the kind of things I like to hear and seem to help the most. Anyway I am not talking about actually pursuing her. I was just relaying what I was told last night and how the perspectives are so different, especially with people who haven't been through it. After years is a long time to come back to someone, especially if you consider my situation of only being married for a couple years and she couldn't handle that! haha!
I honestly don't think I would want her back after years. How do you take someone back after that amount of time. I can understand if you had a super long history together and kids, but in my situation it would be odd I think. I certainly wouldn't wait for her for years and I am struggling to not move on now. Someone who doesn't want me this bad and then couple back after years doesn't sit well with me at all. The way I look at it is we have 6 months until the divorce is final from whenever I finally get the papers from her and that is how long she has to make a decision to change her mind.
I guess I can never say never, but that seems like it is to much time. I would like to think I would find someone else by that time too. I have gone completely dark with her since the last time she wouldn't answer my simple text. My only connection with her is when I am told by my family members that she liked a family picture on Facebook or something, which she has been doing a lot lately, which is odd to me. I just don't understand her reasoning for doing so.
Oh yeah, so my mother decide to send her a text last on her own accord and sent me what she sent to her. I have told her not to text her anymore, but my mother is hurt still and a little bitter. Anyway this is what she sent her.
"You have NO IDEA how much you really are loved, how much Cali would do to save this marriage, and you are willing to throw it all away without even a backward glance. I don't understand."
I'm just glad it wasn't anything to bad, but I guess she couldn't stand it anymore. My mother really thought of her as a daughter and really misses her a lot. I sure hope this doesn't make things worse and like I said I don't want her to change her mind about having such a clean divorce. I'm a little worried that I haven't got the divorce papers yet, which she told me I was going to get 10 days ago.
I don't think I am projecting, but I'd be crazy not to show you how similarities in thought can get a good man in trouble.
I only know you from your words here. You share some good traits with my h - as far as I can tell from your words, you sound disciplined, intelligent and very hard working in your jobs. So is my h.
I'm not sure about your focussing skills but In my h's case, he had a great ability to focus in the operating room, partly by putting on necessary blinders. That is an excellent asset. (In real life, keeping blinders on to reach a single goal, is not so helpful). That may apply to you - or not.
The stubbornness my h showed about "needing" to work and live in Alaska,
reminds me of your inability to simply move for your wife. Because it mattered to HER.
So, Did you really read my post to you, or did you stop when it was not 100% validating or not completely applicable?
Because there was a lot of thought into that post. It included almost entirely YOUR words, and how they might sound to others or make others feel...
My goal is certainly NOT to project - but to illustrate how a man
who is highly successful professionally, very well educated, and in top shape physically, can be so off putting to those around him, including his w and children.
How those same^^^ attributes & behaviors, when presented in certain ways, can lead others around to feel badly about themselves. To turn them off.
Sure, You can say "well that's on them!!"
but when it's your wife & loved ones, maybe that's not the way to approach this. Maybe there is something to learn...
Like maybe a black & white approach to things is rigid, and maybe it is missing out on most of life, which I don't think is black and white.
Like you, my h is a very health focussed person, and sees himself as having high moral standards. As you describe yourself.
In MY Marriage, with MY H, I believe If h were faced with the truth that his wife and all 3 children felt judged & controlled by h in terms of exercise, eating habits and even the belief systems that varied from his, NOT because he demanded this of us overtly or openly ...
I'd bet a lot of money he would deny any role in this^^ if asked.
I hope that^^ sad but true vignette helps you in some way but the rest of this (below) is not at all related to my h, fyi.
When you wrote that you have "high moral standards" it did not occur to you that most of us feel the same about ourselves. It is a rare person who outright says they have low morals. (Did you mean to say something else?)
When you say you accept others "just the same", and also say you believe your own wife "felt inferior" to you, you seem to see no connection between what you project and what your w felt.
It's as if you now think she really was inferior, not that you revealed it to her, or that you subconsciously feel owed.
As if She "should" stay with you b/c you are of high moral standards and she tried (but failed??) to meet those standards even though you "never asked her to"...
The very implication that you "love them the same" is there; = you are overlooking their shortcomings while pretending that you don't see them as such.
My concern for you is that there is so little self awareness going on. You are asking those who agree with you - for more validation that this is all about her.
But Cali, why is your wife's behavior your main (exclusive) focus?
When you wrote that long post about yourself, it put a light on things you can work on in you.
Last note on projecting - here's a true example of something you can benefit from EVEN IF you are nothing like my h.
I'll say this. -
Our youngest child bore the brunt of h's long absences as she was only 8 when they began. Off & on, he missed a great deal of her growing up. I'll spare you the details, but yeah, he was gone A LOT and it was by his choice (no matter how he wrapped it).
Today she and h have a terrible r. They are not close. But she's close to me and her siblings and her cousins, she has many deeply close friendships at college.
She is also being treated for depression at college, and it seems to be helpful, thank God.
To everyone who knows the family history, there is a connection between h's long absences from home, and her feelings of distance between them. Years ago, h admitted as much. For whatever reason, he now denies any such connection, and or sees d19 as damaged goods...
I'm not projecting that^^ onto You.
I'm saying anyone who cannot benefit from the similarities in stories here, is in the wrong place.
Your focus should Not be on your w.
It should be on how you got here, and your own long post about yourself - is a good starting place to begin the real journey in life, which is an inward one.
Thornton, 25year - Why haven't things ultimately worked out for you guys after you reconciled the first time. Are the changes you making not working or is it the other person or both?
25year I will get back to your post later when I'm on my computer. trying to respond on my phone isn't that great at all. Real quick though, yes I always read all that you say and usually a few times and I can say that you don't always make sense to me. It's not in the way that I don't agree with your point, but that I am unclear of your point. You basically lose me sometimes and it's not clear to me. I ask for what you mean at times, but I never see a point blank answer to that question. Like the last question I asked you was what did you mean by it will be good for you in the long run?
OK, so out of the blue my wife just text me. She responds to my very last text I sent her of how was your weekend and then asks a question.
Wife: It wasn't too bad I guess. Been having a lot of rain so it was nice to have a clear sky. How was the graduation?
My wife is referring to one of my little cousins that lives here who graduated high school the other day. This same little cousin is the only other person my wife has reached out to on her own other than me. They have a ton in common and got along really well and my little cousin looked up to a lot! She has been very affected by my wife leaving and was very bothered that she didn't even text her on her graduation day. Although, my wife did like all of the pictures of it on Facebook.
My poor little cousin equates my wife to her father who left her and her sisters not to long ago and has pretty much dropped out of their lives. He means well, but has no idea how to be a good father. 25year he sounds a lot like how your husband was and the relationship he has with your youngest daughter. He was a Marine and gone a lot of her early life and has abandoned it even more as she has gotten older. Im not commenting on your husband not knowing how to be a father so much, but the way you described him to me reminds me of him a lot. He is just a different kind of man.
Anyway I am going to take some time before I respond to this text, although I really feel like just ignoring it all together. I just have no clue what to say or how to respond or even why I should respond. The first thing I thought of saying was don't be a coward and ask her yourself as you should.
The other thing that went through my mind was why is she texting me at all. On one hand I am thinking maybe my mother spurred her into thinking about me and then texting, which that don't want any of that action. On that same line of thinking because of the nature of my moms text my wife is once again doing one of her little tests to see how I respond to her.
What is the best advice here. I feel that is I do text her back the best way to act is as if nothing is wrong and I am moving on. Be happy and upbeat, but not overly excited. I thinking of just saying something like:
Hi xxxxxx [censored] to have it raining so much there. We are having awesome weather here, you would love it. We are getting June gloom right now, so overcast in the morning with beautiful sun shinning day after and some sprinkles here and there. It's great for sleeping at night. Cousin's graduation was great! She is really happy. Only hiccup is she got emotional with her dad and had a heart to heart conversation with him. It turned out OK though, but she was pretty upset.
Maybe to long, but that is what I was thinking anyway. So do you guys think it is wise to respond and if so how do I respond. I ma still trying to keep the peace and do you think she is once again testing me to see how I react to her like she has done before. I feel she might be checking to see of my moms text has truth to it. Anyway any help would be awesome. Im off to the gym right now then to hang out with my brother on his day off, so I will have time to get answers back and maybe respond to her late tonight. Thanks in advance.
Well the next turn of events happened while I was at the gym. She responded to my mother which is an absolute shocker!! She treated my mother the same way she treated me, but much less interaction with my mother though. She would never reach out to her only vaguely respond to my mother text. Anyway I'll recap what my mother sent to her and how my wife responded and again what my mother sent back after that. By the way before I am accused of anything I have nothing to do with this and my mother just texts me what she sends to my wife.
MOTHER-"You have NO IDEA how much you really are loved, how much Cali would do to save this marriage, and you are willing to throw it all away without even a backward glance. I don't understand."
WIFE-"It's not that I haven't taken a backwards glance at all. I am over here so you can't see what I have gone through. This was not something that just happened one day. These decisions have caused me a lot of pain and suffering and still is."
MOTHER-"Then why, (her name), won't you consider marriage counseling? Why isn't the marriage and the memories and the family and the love you shared worth the salvage? Please help me understand? I am hurting too, because you are so very special to me..... my first daughter in law, and the bonus was, you were easy to love. My thoughts keep going to what could have caused such an abrupt disconnect from all of us. I even feel bad there is no communication with your parents. I wish you could have felt you could talk to me comfortably. I wish I had known it was this bad for you. I'm sorry for any pressure I may have put on you. I wish I could have helped. Thank you for responding, (her name). I wasn't even sure I would hear from you."
My mother wants to keep up the dialog with her, so we will see what will happens. I told my mom this is between her and my wife and I am not part of it.
What do you think is good or bad about this?
I am assuming that you don't want your wife's name on here because you put "(her name") in the above post. But you used her name and your cousins name in the post above that.
You might want to see if Cadet can edit that post and "xxxxx" their names if you don't want them in a public forum.
Cali,
I'm sorry you find yourself here and you've received great advice. I know you feel your story is unique (most of us did), but 3 1/2 years later I find that all are some variation of the same. Honestly, I don't read in the newcomers section much because it's tough to read. All of the stories. You seem, hurt, sad and angry. And that's totally normal! It's a super caca situation.
In regards to what your friends think, people think what they think, right? I'm sure they are shocked and think she's being crazy. It doesn't really matter what they think. It matters what your w thinks. Yes, I know she is acting the complete opposite. X Mr GB used to *grandstand* about how horrible people who cheat are. How people are so quick to divorce and divorce is not an option. And the people who essentially relegate their kids as not a priority? Horrible he said. Yet, he did things I was legitimately shocked and hurt by-as are my kids. He battles severe anxiety and clinical depression. Yet you know what? I think he did the best he could with the tools he had to work with. While I may have handled things differently, I certainly wasn't wife of the century. I have a long laundry list of flaws as we all do. Some I have made great strides in bettering -otherwise I'm a work in progress. Aren't we all? I could list my attributes and faults but I'll skip that song and dance.
I see no harm in a simple, short reply to your w's text. I would say to slow down, take a deep breath, and just let things transpire. What's the rush? Yep. I know she said D papers are coming. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. Gotta live in between. I know you said if you reconciled it would be on your terms. THAT probably won't work for your W right now. So, what do you do in the meantime?
I do wish you well. I know it's a difficult place to be.
Cali,
I'm sorry you find yourself here and you've received great advice. I know you feel your story is unique (most of us did), but 3 1/2 years later I find that all are some variation of the same. Honestly, I don't read in the newcomers section much because it's tough to read. All of the stories. You seem, hurt, sad and angry. And that's totally normal! It's a super caca situation.
In regards to what your friends think, people think what they think, right? I'm sure they are shocked and think she's being crazy. It doesn't really matter what they think. It matters what your w thinks. Yes, I know she is acting the complete opposite. X Mr GB used to *grandstand* about how horrible people who cheat are. How people are so quick to divorce and divorce is not an option. And the people who essentially relegate their kids as not a priority? Horrible he said. Yet, he did things I was legitimately shocked and hurt by-as are my kids. He battles severe anxiety and clinical depression. Yet you know what? I think he did the best he could with the tools he had to work with. While I may have handled things differently, I certainly wasn't wife of the century. I have a long laundry list of flaws as we all do. Some I have made great strides in bettering -otherwise I'm a work in progress. Aren't we all? I could list my attributes and faults but I'll skip that song and dance.
I see no harm in a simple, short reply to your w's text. I would say to slow down, take a deep breath, and just let things transpire. What's the rush? Yep. I know she said D papers are coming. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. Gotta live in between. I know you said if you reconciled it would be on your terms. THAT probably won't work for your W right now. So, what do you do in the meantime?
I do wish you well. I know it's a difficult place to be.
Thank you for commenting on my thread and giving advice. My comment about being on my terms was referring to be way down the road, as is a year or more after the divorce. In other words, I have moved on and suddenly she wants back in my life. Otherwise I am well aware that I am the one who has to make the greatest changes if we somehow decide to reconcile this anytime soon. I honestly don't feel like she will want to and I really don't know why she is texting me now.
I never responded to her today and it feels great! My brother came over and we got something to eat watched a few things on TV and then played games of darts and now one of my good buddies is on his way over. Not trying to think of how I should respond and just ignoring it feels great, but I know deep down I probably should if I am to do the right thing. I am just tired of playing the game. This isn't a game to me and it's like a chess match, but it's always pressure on me to make the right move and my wife gets to make up the rules as we go. I may respond to her late tonight after my buddy leaves and she can see it in the morning or I can wait a few days before responding to her. I will just say hi and answer her question and that's it I suppose. I'm sure things will continue as normal after that and I'll get no response.
Thornton, 25year - Why haven't things ultimately worked out for you guys after you reconciled the first time. Are the changes you making not working or is it the other person or both?
We were married for 35 years, most of which was very good to great. No drama, no break ups and no divorce talks. All good and all solid. We both finished a LOT of schooling and became professionals and we had 3 kids and built a family of 5.
After the "Alaskan Episode/MLC", We reconciled for over 10 years.
NO offense, but If memory serves, my m was longer than you've been alive, and the reconciliation lasted longer than you have been married, in total. I'm not sure if you meant to sound snarky. I take no offense, but I'm surprised b/c it
could sound as if you are trying to shut me up with a trump card you don't really have.
When the "Alaskan Episode occurred, in the world's eyes, we were effectively separated.
What did I do? I came here
a lot, and I saw a therapist and I had a DB coach and I went to personal growth workshops, and man, I sure GAL big time. After 2 years of frequent visits, We fully reconciled, and for over a decade.
Speaking only for my situation, I don't think we made mistakes reconciling. I think we reconciled rather beautifully.
It took 2 years for us to reconcile, the first of which I wasted wondering what my h was doing/feeling/planning and reading all I could about MLC.
The 2nd year, though I did want to save the m, I had an internal timeline of when my purgatory limbo would end. (D1 was to finish high school in 2007 and I would not have continued on if h had not begun trying go get back into our m, in late 2006). I began to move on or at least to become who i wanted to become, without actually dating.
SIDENOTE - I did briefly date when we legally sep but I never slept with anyone and the weird thing people have a hard time believing is that the few dates I had were mostly with smart nice guys and yet the times with them mostly made me feel that h and I were quite well suited for each other. In other words I missed h more, usually. That is why I bristle when I see people say "There's ALWAYS an affair and they are ALWAYS physical"...b/c my dates could have been
and were not. But I digress.
When we reconciled, h said what needed to be said. We also went to Retrovaille and I think it was a Godsend, as was my DB coach. There were breakthroughs in Retrovaille that made me feel he really did "get it", that he was remorseful for the damage done to our d's, and I felt he was again, my soulmate. Back on track.
But 4 months into reconciling (up in Alaska, btw) h's mother became terminally ill. She was given 6 months to live, so we moved to help her out. Piecing is the real challenge -- I think in every case - but we shelved it. I didn't know better than, and I didn't see that curve ball coming.
Then she lived 22 months. I'm not complaining, please understand that.
I'm just saying that we didn't really "Plan" on a long term financial burden, or that much time not addressing things in the m that would help us get to why h could leave a loving family for that long and not ache more. The underlying reasons for his choices, were never addressed. THAT was our mistake. Not piecing well or thoroughly.
With his mom sick, We went into crisis mode, and never really got back on track. I did the heavy lifting in the relationship, as usual. But when his mom got so sick, I just did not feel I could redirect our emotional energies towards our m, when h seemed to be in reserve mode.
My marital situation was very different from Thornton's. But he can advise you
But I'll pass on what my DB coach & I came up with, which was customized for me.
Keep the road home, paved and smooth. (Not saying piecing would be all paved, but don't create obstacles to reconciling)
. It'll be hard enough for someone to return, as it is. The more people who know, the more damage done by either party, & the rockier the road home is).
In other words, you make it harder for your w to return by advertising the problems or drafting allies in the war to get her back. IT tends to corner the WAS into staying away.
Do Not keep challenging their choices, b/c the more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them.
Lose the anger, or at least Show no anger to your spouse. NO, it Does not matter if it's righteous anger; what matters is that
it pushes them away. Period.
Do not fuel their negative images/complaints by behaving in ways they've complained of before. IF they say you are "always late", you become Mr Punctual. Show them that
their data about you is invalid or no longer applicable. Counter those negatives with positives, which shows change on your end.
Be positive and upbeat
b/c that's just more attractive. Discussing the damage they have done to you (or the family or financial ruin) is not helpful if reconciliation is the goal.
Guilt won't get them back to stay. Showing them how miserable you are does not prove you really felt love; it's motivation for them to flee more. And it sometimes reflects a weakness, not a strength.
Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives the spouse does, which can be way harder than it sounds. But it for sure encourages more of the same -positives - and that was my goal. It's also not a permanent suggestion as far as I know.
Be a person of strength and honor in all you do. Don't confuse self respect with false pride, and do what you believe in your heart will leave you with no regrets later.
H had no history of leaving, or not paying bills, or being overtly selfish or dishonest in 25 years.
So in a number of big ways his behavior then was totally new. That is why I accepted the possibility of an MLC. In in retrospect I'm not sure that's much more than an attempt at understanding things we cannot make sense of.
I GAL in a way I'm still amazed by and happy about. I had 3 children watching me so I had to set an example. I was committed to the marriage and to my h, and I'm a loyal person.
One size does Not fit all, AND some LBSers should pursue. But a DB coach helps b/c then you only have advice coming from those who have heard your whole story Many times posters enter the thread and hear only the last 2 weeks of a situation, or don't know what you said originally, or assume that the 37 "rules" are actually rules, when they are not.
They are guidelines Sandi assembled one day, based on MWD's teachings in DB...and even then,
she writes that NOT ALL of these suggestions apply, MONITOR FOR RESULTS...
I was not among those who said not to pursue. At the start I thought you should have flown out there, and at least offered, sincerely, to quit your job when you could. I'm not beating a dead horse now or belaboring that point.
But if you want to know what to do NOW, call a db coach and give them ALL the info at once,
b/c I don't think you realized how relevant that information was to some of us. This is not all about her.
^^Which is great news. Because if you had been a perfect h and your w still left, then you'd be powerless.
Instead of putting your focus and energy on what you can do to make her change,
turn inward. That's where the real power is.
I am assuming that you don't want your wife's name on here because you put "(her name") in the above post. But you used her name and your cousins name in the post above that.
You might want to see if Cadet can edit that post and "xxxxx" their names if you don't want them in a public forum.
Yeah I did see that afterwards, but no way to edit it from my side. If she can edit then that would be great, but I don't think it's that big of a deal with just a first name. At least I hope not. haha!
Great post 25. A lesson for everyone on here.
Thornton, 25year - Why haven't things ultimately worked out for you guys after you reconciled the first time. Are the changes you making not working or is it the other person or both?
We were married for 35 years, most of which was very good to great. No drama, no break ups and no divorce talks. All good and all solid. We both finished a LOT of schooling and became professionals and we had 3 kids and built a family of 5.
After the "Alaskan Episode/MLC", We reconciled for over 10 years.
NO offense, but If memory serves, my m was longer than you've been alive, and the reconciliation lasted longer than you have been married, in total. None taken, but you are incorrect about my age. You are close though. There are a lot of things out there that have lasted longer than my marriage of only a couple years! haha!I'm not sure if you meant to sound snarky. I take no offense, but I'm surprised b/c it
could sound as if you are trying to shut me up with a trump card you don't really have.
This is exactly why I say that my writing is taken out of context because that isn't even remotely the case. Like I said you have some things about me pinned wrong. I wanted to know for the sake of learning. It seems there are a lot of people on here who reconcile, but it never lasts. If my reconciliation isn't going to last then it isn't worth it in the long run is what I am thinking. I wanted to know why things didn't work and because it could give me insight to my situation. When the "Alaskan Episode occurred, in the world's eyes, we were effectively separated.
What did I do? I came here
a lot, and I saw a therapist and I had a DB coach and I went to personal growth workshops, and man, I sure GAL big time. After 2 years of frequent visits, We fully reconciled, and for over a decade.
Speaking only for my situation, I don't think we made mistakes reconciling. I think we reconciled rather beautifully.
It took 2 years for us to reconcile, the first of which I wasted wondering what my h was doing/feeling/planning and reading all I could about MLC.
The 2nd year, though I did want to save the m, I had an internal timeline of when my purgatory limbo would end. (D1 was to finish high school in 2007 and I would not have continued on if h had not begun trying go get back into our m, in late 2006). I began to move on or at least to become who i wanted to become, without actually dating.
SIDENOTE - I did briefly date when we legally sep but I never slept with anyone and the weird thing people have a hard time believing is that the few dates I had were mostly with smart nice guys and yet the times with them mostly made me feel that h and I were quite well suited for each other. In other words I missed h more, usually. That is why I bristle when I see people say "There's ALWAYS an affair and they are ALWAYS physical"...b/c my dates could have been
and were not. But I digress.
I find this insight very interesting. My wife got hit on a lot and she could never see anyone, but me in her eyes as the one she wanted. This is from her own words and when she was out with friends and my family. They would always talk about how things went down and how my wife dealt with them. I never ever was jealous or had trust issues between us. It's hard to see her change so quickly with things and when the issue of being divorced from me is still supposedly causing her pain to this day. It really makes no sense to me that things can be worked on so easily, yet she isn't even willing to give a try. When we reconciled, h said what needed to be said. We also went to Retrovaille and I think it was a Godsend, as was my DB coach. There were breakthroughs in Retrovaille that made me feel he really did "get it", that he was remorseful for the damage done to our d's, and I felt he was again, my soulmate. Back on track.
But 4 months into reconciling (up in Alaska, btw) h's mother became terminally ill. She was given 6 months to live, so we moved to help her out. Piecing is the real challenge -- I think in every case - but we shelved it. I didn't know better than, and I didn't see that curve ball coming.
Then she lived 22 months. I'm not complaining, please understand that.
I'm just saying that we didn't really "Plan" on a long term financial burden, or that much time not addressing things in the m that would help us get to why h could leave a loving family for that long and not ache more. The underlying reasons for his choices, were never addressed. THAT was our mistake. Not piecing well or thoroughly.
With his mom sick, We went into crisis mode, and never really got back on track. I did the heavy lifting in the relationship, as usual. But when his mom got so sick, I just did not feel I could redirect our emotional energies towards our m, when h seemed to be in reserve mode.
My marital situation was very different from Thornton's. But he can advise you
But I'll pass on what my DB coach & I came up with, which was customized for me.
Keep the road home, paved and smooth. (Not saying piecing would be all paved, but don't create obstacles to reconciling)
. It'll be hard enough for someone to return, as it is. The more people who know, the more damage done by either party, & the rockier the road home is).
In other words, you make it harder for your w to return by advertising the problems or drafting allies in the war to get her back. IT tends to corner the WAS into staying away.
Do Not keep challenging their choices, b/c the more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them.
That is a very interesting thought and I try and try to keep my family out of it, but they pursue so hard. I get really tired of telling, really just my mother, no all the time. She feels so bad for lying to people about where my wife is. Now one of my aunts knows and so now everyone will know. It's something that I tried to control, but ultimately can't because people are going to do and say what they want to.
My mother is in conversation with my wife right now and she is responding to my mother. I will post what was last said between the two of them in another post. My mother is now trying to ask permission to talk to my wife, but I think I will advise my mother to change her last text to asking my wife to call her if she feels like she really wants too rather than my mother pushing the issue. Or should that be all together not good. I have told my mother over and over that it isn't her issue and it has nothing to do with her, but my mother loves my wife a great deal and is constantly thinking of her.
Lose the anger, or at least Show no anger to your spouse. NO, it Does not matter if it's righteous anger; what matters is that
it pushes them away. Period.
Between my wife and I am certainly the one who shows no anger. Once my wife starts to talk about things that when I can really hear the anger and resentment in her voice, but it isn't coming from me. I talk very calmly to her and watch what what I say. When I talk to her I show lots of empathy and validate the things she says.
Do not fuel their negative images/complaints by behaving in ways they've complained of before. IF they say you are "always late", you become Mr Punctual. Show them that
their data about you is invalid or no longer applicable. Counter those negatives with positives, which shows change on your end.
OK, so I am sure your going to say here he goes again with making excuses and what not. Anyway a big problem between us was communication, so how do I go about that not being an issue if everyone tells me I should shut my mouth and walk away. It's extremely conflicting to say the least. As of right now I have chose not to text my wife back after she text me yesterday morning, so is that the right idea or what. I feel communication is a huge key to this and that is all we have being so far apart with no connections at all. Be positive and upbeat
b/c that's just more attractive. Discussing the damage they have done to you (or the family or financial ruin) is not helpful if reconciliation is the goal.
Guilt won't get them back to stay. Showing them how miserable you are does not prove you really felt love; it's motivation for them to flee more. And it sometimes reflects a weakness, not a strength.
The one thing my wife will not see in me is weakness and please don't take this is a bad way, but trust me when I say that. It is a positive trait of mine and always have been it's a compliment and what people see in me most often. I have not and will not beg or plead. I have told her that I miss her and love, but that is not showing weakness. Besides all of that she is clearly seeing what I am up to because of Facebook and the momarazzi I have for a mother! haha!
Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives the spouse does, which can be way harder than it sounds. But it for sure encourages more of the same -positives - and that was my goal. It's also not a permanent suggestion as far as I know.
Be a person of strength and honor in all you do. Don't confuse self respect with false pride, and do what you believe in your heart will leave you with no regrets later.
That an interesting one because what I want to do is what everyone screams at me for wanting to do. Such as write a letter to her and see her face to face to end this thing in the right way.
That way I will have no regrets that I did come for her and she choose to still leave. I honestly think my wife would have preferred for me to show more interest and actually come after her to show that I really do love her and cared if she left or not. What I did do was let her go, although I said I didn't agree with it, I gave her the space and time she asked for and now I am here. H had no history of leaving, or not paying bills, or being overtly selfish or dishonest in 25 years.
So in a number of big ways his behavior then was totally new. That is why I accepted the possibility of an MLC. In in retrospect I'm not sure that's much more than an attempt at understanding things we cannot make sense of.
I GAL in a way I'm still amazed by and happy about. I had 3 children watching me so I had to set an example. I was committed to the marriage and to my h, and I'm a loyal person.
I know a few around me who I watched do this same thing for their kids too, it's an awesome thing and something to be proud of. One size does Not fit all, AND some LBSers should pursue. But a DB coach helps b/c then you only have advice coming from those who have heard your whole story Problem with the coaching that I see is that they really don't know the whole situation and if I try to get them to understand it then I spend the entire phone conversation talking and I get very little out of them. It would be really awesome if I could request the DB coach to read my thread before I call them. I think that seems like a really good way to help someone even more. I mean it isn't a cheap thing to do.Many times posters enter the thread and hear only the last 2 weeks of a situation, or don't know what you said originally, or assume that the 37 "rules" are actually rules, when they are not.
They are guidelines Sandi assembled one day, based on MWD's teachings in DB...and even then,
she writes that NOT ALL of these suggestions apply, MONITOR FOR RESULTS...
I was not among those who said not to pursue. At the start I thought you should have flown out there, and at least offered, sincerely, to quit your job when you could. I'm not beating a dead horse now or belaboring that point.
But if you want to know what to do NOW, call a db coach and give them ALL the info at once,
b/c I don't think you realized how relevant that information was to some of us. This is not all about her.
^^Which is great news. Because if you had been a perfect h and your w still left, then you'd be powerless.
If you read the interaction she had with my mom then you can see that there is something still there so to speak, but like I said she responded to my mom again and you can see that it has a different feeling, in my opinion anyway. Instead of putting your focus and energy on what you can do to make her change,
turn inward. That's where the real power is.
SIDENOTE - I did briefly date when we legally sep but I never slept with anyone and the weird thing people have a hard time believing is that the few dates I had were mostly with smart nice guys and yet the times with them mostly made me feel that h and I were quite well suited for each other. In other words I missed h more, usually. That is why I bristle when I see people say "There's ALWAYS an affair and they are ALWAYS physical"...b/c my dates could have been and were not. But I digress.
That is what surprised me what my W was saying about OM. I was skeptical and maybe justifiably so but she said she slowly realized I was a great catch. She went from cold to a bit more interested in me when things got serious between them to very depressed and suicidal before I found out to being intimate and hopeful after I found out to now back to depression when I reminded her that it hurt me. So your advice to only communicate happy thoughts is something I have to internalize. And ONLY showing a side of me that she doesn't complain about. That's hard.
My wife did respond to my mother again. I recapped and put her response on the bottom.
MOTHER-"You have NO IDEA how much you really are loved, how much Cali would do to save this marriage, and you are willing to throw it all away without even a backward glance. I don't understand."
WIFE-"It's not that I haven't taken a backwards glance at all. I am over here so you can't see what I have gone through. This was not something that just happened one day. These decisions have caused me a lot of pain and suffering and still is."
MOTHER-"Then why, (her name), won't you consider marriage counseling? Why isn't the marriage and the memories and the family and the love you shared worth the salvage? Please help me understand? I am hurting too, because you are so very special to me..... my first daughter in law, and the bonus was, you were easy to love. My thoughts keep going to what could have caused such an abrupt disconnect from all of us. I even feel bad there is no communication with your parents. I wish you could have felt you could talk to me comfortably. I wish I had known it was this bad for you. I'm sorry for any pressure I may have put on you. I wish I could have helped. Thank you for responding, (her name). I wasn't even sure I would hear from you."
WIFE- "You have put no pressure and I did talk to you about things before. It wasn't that I was not comfortable talking to you, that was never the case at all. I was not sure what to do. I wanted to keep in contact with you guys but wasn't sure if I should and I see y'all have a lot going on. With everything between Cali and I, I never wanted to hurt you or anyone else. I love you very much. I love the entire family and always will."
The response my wife gave seems to be very generic and just talk. It's pressure from my mother I can see it. I am going to tell me mom to back off, I just get tired of fighting it. I am telling everyone that everyone else seems to be taking this much worse than I am and that is tiring in itself to say the least.
OK thanks 25year!! This has been by far the most helpful you have been to me largely because it was the most clear understanding I had reading your posts. I am thinking on calling a DB coach to see what my next step is now. [/color]
Hello Cali08,
I am sorry for the situation you are in.
The best advice I can give you is to speak with a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best guidance on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Cali
on my way out but wanted to urge one thing in ALL the communications to your w, regardless of whether it is you or your mom.
Stress the positives (well loved, lots in common, etc) and NOT what pain your w is causing anyone.
First off, it will NOT help your cause. It's blaming your w for inflicting pain
when at the very least you know your w has been in pain of her own.
2nd - Do you really want her to defend herself? (No, you don't - b/c that will mean she blames YOU) and it goes downhill from there instead of rebuilding.
It's not like your w impulsively ran off with the gardener, even if it you feel this is very sudden or irrational.
It makes sense to her, it's true, AND it was not totally new. When your tells her that she is "throwing it away" - well, that is just not going to help you.
Reminding her of the upsides & positives does not require more..., trust that she will KNOW it goes into the "loss" category...
3rd, if others are going to talk about your m, then YOU (& w) must control the message.
And keep it short...
BRIEF BFIEF BRIEF
like "yes we are having a martial challenge. No 3rd parties, no abuse and nothing very dramatic but yes, it's hard - and I/we appreciate your support. "
The end.
Anyone who presses for more, gets a repeat of the above ^^"press release" & possibly a pause & glare...then thank them for respecting your privacy. "Yeah it's a rough patch/struggle" but zero specifics, UNLESS THEY ARE ABOUT YOU.
Cali, you do not want others knowing the details of this private marital struggle. Or your wife's issues which are not yours to tell.
It hurts the marriage. And It's not loyal.
more later
I don't think I am projecting, but I'd be crazy not to show you how similarities in thought can get a good man in trouble.
I only know you from your words here. You share some good traits with my h - as far as I can tell from your words, you sound disciplined, intelligent and very hard working in your jobs. So is my h.
I'm not sure about your focusing skills but In my h's case, he had a great ability to focus in the operating room, partly by putting on necessary blinders. That is an excellent asset. (In real life, keeping blinders on to reach a single goal, is not so helpful). That may apply to you - or not.
Thank you for the complements if that was intended. If you understood some of the other things I do outside of my job and the training I am constantly going through then you would understand the kind of focus I can have. My work is only important to me in how it pays my bills and the fact that I help our soldiers stay safe on the battle field. That being said work and my life are very separate things and I don't or at least try not to have blinders up when going through life in general.
The stubbornness my h showed about "needing" to work and live in Alaska,
reminds me of your inability to simply move for your wife. Because it mattered to HER.
So, Did you really read my post to you, or did you stop when it was not 100% validating or not completely applicable?
I read every ones post a 100% and I can care less if your validating me or not, I'm not here looking for validation, although you may think I am. I am here for guidance through this divorce or what ever it is for me. I know my wife and I know myself better than any of you do, of course. That being said when I have such a strong gut feeling towards something I really like to understand reason as to why it is wrong. When the reason given doesn't apply to my personality or of what my wife knows of me then I have issue.
For instance, I think there is a difference when talking about pursuing when it is someone who has a personality like mine. I can totally agree the running after someone, begging, pleading and crying for them to come back can have real negative results when pursuing the spouse. When I pursue my wife there will be none of that for a fact. I will come to her and talk calmly about things face to face with confidence and no expectation either. I feel that is a factor that isn't considered and so I try to engage on that and that is when people think I am fighting the advice. It's just me trying to deal with the questions I have and to understand things at a deeper level. I hope that makes sense.
Because there was a lot of thought into that post. It included almost entirely YOUR words, and how they might sound to others or make others feel...
I am trying to work on getting the point I want across in a better way. I have always been blunt and that can come across in so many different ways, so a little more tact might help I suppose.
My goal is certainly NOT to project - but to illustrate how a man
who is highly successful professionally, very well educated, and in top shape physically, can be so off putting to those around him, including his w and children.
How those same^^^ attributes & behaviors, when presented in certain ways, can lead others around to feel badly about themselves. To turn them off.
Sure, You can say "well that's on them!!"
but when it's your wife & loved ones, maybe that's not the way to approach this. Maybe there is something to learn...
I can honestly say that isn't true for me. How do I know this, because I have dealt with this before and at an early age. I learned how people felt judged and put off because of my personal choices of how to live even when I had no intention at all for that to be the case. I am stubborn, but I am teachable because I am aware of my bad traits too.
I am constantly in a position at work, with family and friends of giving guidance and advice on many different subjects. It's not something that I ask for or strive to do, but it happens none the less. I have to always be cognizant of how I conduct myself and the choices I make. One thing I really have going for me is the influence of great men and woman. Starting with my parents, aunt, uncles and grand parents and great grand parents. I have learned by watching them and listening too.
A big difference between my wife and I is that kind of influence in her life. Her father was her best character example to follow. As far as the rest of her family, not so much. Her mother, now, is a different person than when my wife was younger. Some of the things she told my wife about men my will make you really question a lot of things. It's down right disturbing at times and then it makes you wonder why she was sexually abused at a young age.
Like maybe a black & white approach to things is rigid, and maybe it is missing out on most of life, which I don't think is black and white.
I am the first one to admit that I do view some things as black and white, but it is very selective and I am aware of it. I see no wrong in doing that. That being said I never force those views on anyone else. For instance, I have never done drugs or even had a sip of alcohol in my life and I choose to not do it. That decision is very black and white for me. I can careless if you or anyone else wants to do it because it has no bearing what so ever on me and neither should my decision not to do it have any on you.
Like you, my h is a very health focused person, and sees himself as having high moral standards. As you describe yourself.
In MY Marriage, with MY H, I believe If h were faced with the truth that his wife and all 3 children felt judged & controlled by h in terms of exercise, eating habits and even the belief systems that varied from his, NOT because he demanded this of us overtly or openly ...
I'd bet a lot of money he would deny any role in this^^ if asked.
I hope that^^ sad but true vignette helps you in some way but the rest of this (below) is not at all related to my h, fyi.
I am not of the kind of person to deny things that are true even if I don't like it to be. Trust me when I say I face things about myself all the time that need to be worked on. Sometimes it takes a couple slaps to the head first before I realize it, but eventually it sinks in.
When you wrote that you have "high moral standards" it did not occur to you that most of us feel the same about ourselves. It is a rare person who outright says they have low morals. (Did you mean to say something else?)
When you say you accept others "just the same", and also say you believe your own wife "felt inferior" to you, you seem to see no connection between what you project and what your w felt.
It's as if you now think she really was inferior, not that you revealed it to her, or that you subconsciously feel owed.
As if She "should" stay with you b/c you are of high moral standards and she tried (but failed??) to meet those standards even though you "never asked her to"...
The very implication that you "love them the same" is there; = you are overlooking their shortcomings while pretending that you don't see them as such.
I did try to explain this is a post after this one, but I'll recap here again. That is not how I wanted that to come across. I was merely trying to explain maybe what my wife was seeing and not what I was thinking about myself. This is what I felt, putting two and two together, that maybe my wife thought this was about me. Besides that I think having high moral standards is not going to be the same for everyone and always different is some way.
My concern for you is that there is so little self awareness going on. You are asking those who agree with you - for more validation that this is all about her.
But Cali, why is your wife's behavior your main (exclusive) focus?
When you wrote that long post about yourself, it put a light on things you can work on in you.
I am very aware of what I did wrong in my marriage. In a nutshell I didn't give my wife the love and attention in the way she needed it and I failed to grasp that soon enough. This one thing here is the real issue and what I hear coming from her most.
Last note on projecting - here's a true example of something you can benefit from EVEN IF you are nothing like my h.
I'll say this. -
Our youngest child bore the brunt of h's long absences as she was only 8 when they began. Off & on, he missed a great deal of her growing up. I'll spare you the details, but yeah, he was gone A LOT and it was by his choice (no matter how he wrapped it).
Today she and h have a terrible r. They are not close. But she's close to me and her siblings and her cousins, she has many deeply close friendships at college.
She is also being treated for depression at college, and it seems to be helpful, thank God.
To everyone who knows the family history, there is a connection between h's long absences from home, and her feelings of distance between them. Years ago, h admitted as much. For whatever reason, he now denies any such connection, and or sees d19 as damaged goods...
I'm not projecting that^^ onto You.
I'm saying anyone who cannot benefit from the similarities in stories here, is in the wrong place.
Your focus should Not be on your w.
It should be on how you got here, and your own long post about yourself - is a good starting place to begin the real journey in life, which is an inward one.
Cali
on my way out but wanted to urge one thing in ALL the communications to your w, regardless of whether it is you or your mom.
Stress the positives (well loved, lots in common, etc) and NOT what pain your w is causing anyone.
First off, it will NOT help your cause. It's blaming your w for inflicting pain
when at the very least you know your w has been in pain of her own.
2nd - Do you really want her to defend herself? (No, you don't - b/c that will mean she blames YOU) and it goes downhill from there instead of rebuilding.
It's not like your w impulsively ran off with the gardener, even if it you feel this is very sudden or irrational.
It makes sense to her, it's true, AND it was not totally new. When your tells her that she is "throwing it away" - well, that is just not going to help you.
Reminding her of the upsides & positives does not require more..., trust that she will KNOW it goes into the "loss" category...
3rd, if others are going to talk about your m, then YOU (& w) must control the message.
And keep it short...
BRIEF BFIEF BRIEF
like "yes we are having a martial challenge. No 3rd parties, no abuse and nothing very dramatic but yes, it's hard - and I/we appreciate your support. "
The end.
Anyone who presses for more, gets a repeat of the above ^^"press release" & possibly a pause & glare...then thank them for respecting your privacy. "Yeah it's a rough patch/struggle" but zero specifics, UNLESS THEY ARE ABOUT YOU.
Cali, you do not want others knowing the details of this private marital struggle. Or your wife's issues which are not yours to tell.
It hurts the marriage. And It's not loyal.
more later
25year this is all great advice and it is what I have been looking for!! Thank you, this gives me direction and helps a lot.
25year - By the way I am going to share this with my mother because I think she really needs this a lot more then I do. I really hope it will help her in how she views things. I told her all the time before when dealing with my wife to just be her friend and let her know that you love her and miss her and hope she is going well, but my mother is so compelled to get answers from my wife that she doesn't want to give.
25year - By the way I am going to share this with my mother because I think she really needs this a lot more then I do.
sure. I do want to mention that you have written things here and I think 3 times people have not understood what you meant. I don't think I'm the only one, but if that's something that happened here, maybe writing things out is not your strongest communication tool.
I really hope it will help her in how she views things. I told her all the time before when dealing with my wife to just be her friend and let her know that you love her and miss her and hope she is going well,
^^ right
but my mother is so compelled to get answers from my wife that she doesn't want to give.
it will not help you. Your w will NOT slap her forehead and say "OMG good point! I'll come back now and all will be well. What was I thinking??"
More likely she will flee, if not physically then emotionally. You will get less contact, not more.
Your w seems to have a mission and you are not to go on it with her. You may have to release her to her task or you may get a chance to show your changes, but writing her another letter will not achieve that.
Your mother asking for answers that either your w does not want to give, or which are not fully known to your w OR that are changeable
is most likely to make her feel judged or cornered. Neither helps you.
IF the time comes that your w feels comfortable with your mom, she will tell her what is happening in her heart/head.
Not b/c she is asked for answers.
Hang in there, at least you have your mom's support. That's not always the case.
25year - I think the difference with writing my wife a letter is that she actually understands me and knows me personally so there would be less confusion as to what I am trying to say, but yes, I get your point.
So a few things have transpired since the last time. My mother has continued her dialog with my wife. Once I sent my mother your last post to read and I asked her back off this is what she sent my wife and how my wife responded to it.
MOTHER - "Actually, I'm going to rescind that request. I re-read what you said, and I realize that you really don't want or need any pressure from anyone. If you want to talk to me, feel free to call or text anytime. I'd really love to hear from you." (My mother also mentioned that we had visiting friends here and they were heading on a vacation soon too)
WIFE - "I hope you enjoy Rachelle and the kids:) and also your vacation. If you want to talk I'll talk:). I'm not sure what Cali has told you. I imagine quite a bit."
My mother is going to give it a few days and call and talk to her with the advice the you have given me in mind. Here is the one thing my wife has repeated to a number of people. That is "I don't know what Cali has told you". Why do think she keeps repeating this. Does she think I am over here bad mouthing her? The thing my mother will tell her because it's the truth is that I have defended her and her right for what she is doing and that I realize I was a big part of the problem.
After all the communication with my mother back and forth I decided to text my wife back very late last night. I figured she would be asleep and just get it in the morning, after all it was after 2am her time. To me the back and forth just feels odd, not on my part but on hers. Anyway here is what our short conversation went like.
WIFE - "How was the graduation?"
ME - "It was good, she was really happy! She would have loved to hear from you, it would mean a lot to her." (This was my first text and it was after 2am her time. It was also answering the question she asked a couple days prior, like you guys know I didn't feel like texting back and was on the fence if I was going to or not.)
Wife - "I will give her a call. I was just thinking of you. I need to sleep, but can't. It's almost 3am.
"
ME - "I'm sorry I didn't mean to wake you."
Wife - "I'm up.....needing to sleep. Listening to music on Spotify. I may try to sleep soon."
ME - "It's 3am there. I know you have trouble with sleeping sometimes."
WIFE - "Yeah.....me mind is always racing and I get hyper. It's better than it used to be."
ME - "It would be nice for you to figure out a method to help you get to sleep."
WIFE - "Yeah....that doesn't involve pills. I took a valium for my back today and it was then that I realize that my mind isn't normal....the speed of it....but it's my normal...so much happening all at once....so many thoughts.....too many observations. It was nice to slow down and also not be in pain. The effects lasted for maybe 30 minutes. I see why/how I'm so different."
ME - "The valium slowed your mind down?"
At this time it was about 10 minutes passed before that last text I sent and I didn't hear from her again. Then about 5:45am my time I get a text from her.
WIFE - "It relaxes you. I fell asleep."
I respond about 7 hours later.
ME - "Yeah I know well. I knew you were sleeping."
WIFE - "Not sure what you mean by that first sentence but yeah. I didn't know I was going to fall asleep that fast."
ME - "Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to say I know you well. You knocked off pretty fast."
About 7 hours pass before she responds and it is now past midnight there.
WIFE - "I didn't think I was tired and then poof, I was out."
I have yet to answer her, but I just feel the texting is pointless in a way. Why does she say that she was just thinking of me? Why does she keep this pointless conversation going? I just don't get the why. How do you think I am doing in my text responses? Could I do a little more or just keep going like I am? By the way there are still no divorce papers in the mail.
Is it a good idea if my mom does call her and talk to my wife. I told my mom to be very validating and just caring. My mom said that she was going to let my wife do all the talking, but I certainly don't want, like you said, for this to backfire. Although, it seems to be doing just fine right now. I will tell my mom to keep it short too.
OK so this just happened. I'm not sure what to think about it or how will affect my wife. 25year the quoted message from you below was sent to my mother and my wife. Of course it wasn't meant to be sent to my wife, but because I used to email my mother and my wife all the time with my itinerary for travel my email selected them both and I didn't notice it. I was very tired when I sent the email to my mother last night, so again below is what my wife also got.
Below is the response that I got when I posted up about you wanting to have a phone conversation with her. This is before knowing how she responded to you today and said she would talk.(This was the header I had on the email)
"it will not help you. Your w will NOT slap her forehead and say "OMG good point! I'll come back now and all will be well. What was I thinking??"
More likely she will flee, if not physically then emotionally. You will get less contact, not more.
Your w seems to have a mission and you are not to go on it with her. You may have to release her to her task or you may get a chance to show your changes, but writing her another letter will not achieve that.
Your mother asking for answers that either your w does not want to give, or which are not fully known to your w OR that are changeable
is most likely to make her feel judged or cornered. Neither helps you.
IF the time comes that your w feels comfortable with your mom, she will tell her what is happening in her heart/head.
Not b/c she is asked for answers.
Hang in there, at least you have your mom's support. That's not always the case."
Anyway I my wife wakes me up early this morning with a text message about 6am and tells me that she got an email from me and asked if I meant to send it to her. I'll share how the text messages went below.
WIFE- I just saw an email from you. Did you mean to send that to me? It had your mom as the first person you sent it to.
ME- No I didn't I'm not sure how you got on that, sorry.
Wife- It was sent to me also. I did read it. Sorry if I woke you.
ME- I have no idea how it was sent to you.
WIFE- Oh well. It's no big deal. It was sent....that's all I mean. Going back to sleep? (If you were asleep)
ME- Probably not now.
WIFE- Sorry for waking you. I was hoping you wouldn't wake up and would see the texts when you got up.
ME- It's OK, I'm really awake now. I'll see if I can fall back asleep, but probably not. My heart is racing. Kind of like you I suppose. Get hyper and can't sleep.
WIFE- Awwwwww that stinks. I hate that feeling. Usually my mind races with that too.
ME- Yeah I know, my mind is going as well. I always wish I could help you get better sleep or at least get to sleep faster.
From there on out the texts are just talking about reading, writing and sleeping. Has anyone ever had this happen and how did it affect things? How do I judge my wife's reaction to it. I am surprised that my wife even mentioned it. I would have thought she would just keep it to herself.
I told my mother about it and I also told my mother when she talks to my wife to let her know I sent that because I was concerned my mom was putting to much pressure on her and I didn't want her to make things worse. I also told my mom that if my wife asks she can tell her I'm getting counseling. I really wish that didn't happen, but my wifes reaction to it didn't seem like she cared or even wanted to know what it was about and she was very talkative after. What would be my recommended step after this. Should I detach even more from my wife or actually try to keep the communication up more? There is nothing I can do about it now because the damage has been done. You live and you learn.
I haven't talked to my wife since Friday morning when I had that mishap with the email up above. My mother said she tried to call her the other day, but she didn't answer and she hasn't called my mother back yet either. Anyway I decided to send a text to my wife and I keep getting the same kind of response from her a lot lately, well at least with the few texts.
ME - Hi
WIFE - Hi. I was thinking about you most of last night..... You're up early
Every time she has told me that she was thinking of me I just ignored it and went on with texting, but she has been saying it a lot lately, so I thought I would reciprocate it this time. It just felt like I should.
ME - Yeah, I was thinking about you too.
WIFE - Not sleeping at all?
ME - It was hard for me to get to sleep, how about you? (this isn't really true, but I just went with it because it felt like a connection. I did not get the best sleep because I'm away for work and I was up too late and had to get up early.)
WIFE - Yeah......me too. It's almost just after 5 am now.... Did you sleep at all?
ME - It's no good.....not much
WIFE - Awwwwwww (and she sent a little crying emoji)
We went on texting each other for the next 4 hours and she actually was texting almost double of what I text her. I'm not sure how to take her behavior towards me. When talking texting her there is actually a better feeling then I had before. She seems more caring towards me for what ever reason. I have nothing to base that on other then it is a gut feeling and it seems to be that way. It makes me wonder though.
She told me she went to spend time with her brother and his girlfriend in Georgia. This is also where the dude who has been texting her a lot lives, although it's about 3 hours away from her brother. I am not 100% sure he lives there, but it's what it says on his Facebook page. I got to thinking that I wonder if she was visiting him too while she was there. I wonder if that was why I have been on her mind lately. She is thinking of finally sending the divorce papers so she can be free to be with this guy and maybe not feel guilty about it. Or it's also possible that she saw this guy and it made her think of me in a good light, but I guess that is just all trying to mind read. Haha!
Been almost a month now and still no divorce papers......
Today I heard my wife talked to and opened up quite a bit to one of my real good friends wife and then just suddenly stopped texting her. I haven't talked to my friends wife yet, but I heard she thinks the sudden stop in texting her was because she was being too pro-marriage.
Today I heard my wife talked to and opened up quite a bit to one of my real good friends wife and then just suddenly stopped texting her. I haven't talked to my friends wife yet, but I heard she thinks the sudden stop in texting her was because she was being too pro-marriage.
This is a long post, I warn you. But I'm going out of town and thought I'd just journal to you - about your stuff.
Stop the pressuring and back the heck off. You are coming across as micro managing and analyzing everything way too much. I think it shows.
You sent her the email with my wording to you about not pressuring her, and talking to your mom about that, and you don't think that is pushing her??
Trust me, It is pressuring her and
she did not "Forget" it just b/c she's not discussing it with you at the moment. My guess is that she is talking to others about that note and analyzing it and if she thinks you meant to send it or that you are talking about her behind her back, etc.
This^^ does not mean for you to bring it up, again. Drop it. You explained that you did not mean to send it to her so drop it or it's "me thinks thou doth protest too much".
Besides, what I wrote was discussing NOT pushing or cornering her, so please, drop it.
I would stop dissecting all the texts...they are not filled with enough content to interpret. Most of them are way too late in the night anyhow.
Oh, and of course she'll stop texting with someone who is "too pro marriage" b/c it's all the same. It's manipulation or looks like it, and in truth, wasn't it? I mean, even if you did not ask that friend to speak up for the m, you knew they would and you wanted that. It's natural, but it must stop. It is not disguised nearly as well as you believe. Too many allies trying to push the cause for good old Cali.
Please Cali, Stop trying to manipulate the outcome. You cannot force her back into your arms with words, no matter how correctly they are expressed, or by whom, or by how many,
but you sure can push her away. And as for what your w thinks you are saying to others,
what do you think she believes?
Why is that?
BTW I"m sorely tempted to reach out to my MIL b/c I love her and want her to think well of me. Since she has not reached out, it makes me think h has bad mouthed me to her in some wacky ways. There is a kernel of truth to what I THINK he says, so that part shames me, although it's just a story I tell myself, isn't it?
Still, it's so NOT something for you to worry about if you know you are being loyal and respectful to your w and marriage.
If I were Not reading your posts very carefully, which for some reason I am, I'd think you believe your w was just being a spoiled little nut & many would assume an affair (to be frank, some folks here
literally always assume an affair and they harp almost exclusively on it beyond belief). I'm not one of those people.
I don't think it is constructive, as it totally stops the LBSers path of growth b/c now they blame it ALL on the OP. Plus, they can be wrong.
But while affairs may all be wrong, they are not all alike.
I think your w wanted out of being far from her support system, and didn't like being lonely and depressed. There are reasons you mostly seem to "cognitively know" but just do not accept as being
as valid or weighty of as logical and important as your reasons for Not wanting to leave, are. You can spin it and spend paragraphs explaining that as if I'm too dense or as if you are "just not being clear" but on that issue, you are wordy but clear.
Yes I've read your explanations for not moving, and it still boils down to this: you don't want to leave CA - unless Maybe - you know your w will return to the m AND that you'd find a job you like and enjoy there, AND somehow recover the money lost on the house and and and and other conditions you would need precedent to a move...
basically lowering your risk a lot, while asking your w to take all the risk and move back based on your promises to do things better...but back there...which is her underlying complaint.
You circumvent the points I make by saying - politely and at some length, that I'm wrong or that I "don't understand..."
**Hey, I stopped bringing that up b/c I know it's a lost cause. I figure that the strong chance you had of recon is lessened by ignoring that advice, but it's not eliminated. And I could always be wrong. So I labor on.
I'd suggest you watch Esther Perel's TED talk on infidelity. NOT b/c I think she's having a PA but Because it's about more than affairs,
it's about why relationships fall apart ...and how some can be restored and on occasion, deepened, after an A. Not all can survive an affair but She has great research on this and more than one book/TED talk.
I have a hunch I have not fleshed out, but will give you now b/c I can't post to you for a few days...just to ponder.
You remind me of someone (NOT my h!!) but a man who spends time away from family for work and then when he's home he's sort of "omnipresent" with his w and kids. Maybe he wants to reassert leadership in the family or compensate for absence, etc.
Like he's making up for lost time I guess. OF course the teenagers and wife have developed their own routine so he's sort of crashing in, or being unintentionally a bit too much "there" with them when he is home. This was okay when the kids were little but now they have their own lives.
So if you feel like you have less control like all LBSers feel, that often makes a man more intrusive and hovering over your wife, which is seen as over bearing and controlling (whereas with returning women I think it comes across as needy & clingy)
----Even if it's all from a distance. Maybe you were kind of in her face when you were home or maybe it was more of the same old distance with your work but
NOW, with your loss of access, you are sort of hard core pursuing her - in your head at least.
Hyper analyzing messages and even thinking if she goes to see her brother in GA that a guy you stalked on fb, who lives 3 hours away and to whom she had messaged in the past, might be her true intended target...SIGH...even if you are "right"
you have no control over any of this^^...Cali, do you have an IC? If not, why not?
Off the top of my head, I don't know any LBSer who has Not seen a therapist or IC or priest, and over the months - the only people I know who did recon, had someone counseling them in their corner. Just saying.
Next---
TO ME
and take this with the concern from a DB woman who'll never meet you but who supports you -
The texts about you not sleeping well, are... kind of like a boring form of pressure. And late at night...
seems like You are standing around wanting to talk to her without anything of great interest to tell her. How is that productive at all? "Some contact is better than no contact" is Not necessarily true.
Why doesn't that just prove either how little you two have to say of importance to each other (no deep connection) or how little you have in common?
If you are backing off of emotional disclosures to avoid pursuing her, that's totally fine.
If she only says blah blah blah talk, tell her to get a good night's sleep and catch up later.
IF SHE opens up A LOT and seems interested in how you feel about something, then for God's sake open up and make yourself vulnerable
without expectation of her...
But if you are just shooting the breeze, answer by making it interesting and real. Not necessarily "fascinating" ...(I mean, don't force this but give it some thought)
I'm guessing you experience things in the day, at work or socially. So you must have specifics to say (not just "had a good day, how about you?" - which is both boring and putting the onus of the conversation on her)
but something like "Oh, major weirdness today! Today Boss lost his temper at manager, and manager went whacko on him- I thought I'd need to duck" // OR "so it turns out manager was shagging his partner's wife and got caught, what a %#$*..."
OR "bummer, layoffs coming, lots of tension at office,
I'm a little nervous",
/new product out and stock is skyrocketing, feels exciting" "got a nice review today and looks like I may get a bonus/promotion so feeling a little proud" -
hey - things do happen in your day, right? SHARE that and when it makes sense, share how you feel about it.
This ^^way, you are sharing your day to day life -when of interest, and you are disclosing your reactions AND it is all without R pressure~. Make sense?
When the time comes, you can share your emotions about the m and your role -
specifically, not generally "do better/be more loving" that is too vague, which I know I've said here a few times to you.
I suggest you lay off on how well you know her (= "I'm so good for you, better than anyone else and MAYBE I know you better than you know yourself... and thought I'd mention it again" or "You need me and I thought I'd mention it...in a slightly different way...again")
What's with telling her how you can't sleep either on the exact same nights (um, no it's not true and she knows that) plus
you never disclose why...
do you have any
specific interesting questions for her?
If You have had racing thoughts (most of us do in these situations), tell her
one thing that helped you - and btw mindfulness and meditation are Not just for Southern Californians anymore.
When it's not the middle of the night, Ask her about work/family/school/friends or a specific thing of interest to her...or you. Places she's been, things she joined, old stomping grounds, etc.
It's not all about you or people who are for/against the m.
Heck, I'm in my old stomping grounds now. My friends are supportive of my happiness in my new life OR if h and i recon, which I know some want. -But they don't have all the info-
Our loves ones do not want to see us in pain.
The DB books talk about this^^ - though I think they overstate one thing.
If You or your w are cycling thru the
same old complaints to the same people, yes she may get pushed to get out of the m just b/c the recipient is frustrated hearing the same old,
and has no idea what else to say.
But generally, people are trying to help.
Don't worry about what you cannot control, which is most of this.Back to you, Bring something to the table, man. I know you have it in you.
Now it's late for ME and I have to get ready for a trip.
Sorry this was so long winded. (Don't send it to your wife!)
Today I heard my wife talked to and opened up quite a bit to one of my real good friends wife and then just suddenly stopped texting her. I haven't talked to my friends wife yet, but I heard she thinks the sudden stop in texting her was because she was being too pro-marriage.
This is a long post, I warn you. But I'm going out of town and thought I'd just journal to you - about your stuff.
Stop the pressuring and back the heck off. You are coming across as micro managing and analyzing everything way too much. I think it shows.
You sent her the email with my wording to you about not pressuring her, and talking to your mom about that, and you don't think that is pushing her??
That was a total accident and I didn't want her to see that in the least. Trust me, It is pressuring her and
she did not "Forget" it just b/c she's not discussing it with you at the moment. My guess is that she is talking to others about that note and analyzing it and if she thinks you meant to send it or that you are talking about her behind her back, etc.
This^^ does not mean for you to bring it up, again. Drop it. You explained that you did not mean to send it to her so drop it or it's "me thinks thou doth protest too much".
Besides, what I wrote was discussing NOT pushing or cornering her, so please, drop it.
I did drop it completely. You can see the text exchange of it and what was said there about it was everything that was said about it.I would stop dissecting all the texts...they are not filled with enough content to interpret. Most of them are way too late in the night anyhow.
She has a horrible time with sleep and is usually up at odd hours. She did this while living with me too.Oh, and of course she'll stop texting with someone who is "too pro marriage" b/c it's all the same. It's manipulation or looks like it, and in truth, wasn't it? I mean, even if you did not ask that friend to speak up for the m, you knew they would and you wanted that. It's natural, but it must stop. It is not disguised nearly as well as you believe. Too many allies trying to push the cause for good old Cali.
Please Cali, Stop trying to manipulate the outcome. You cannot force her back into your arms with words, no matter how correctly they are expressed, or by whom, or by how many,
but you sure can push her away. I had absolutely nothing to do with my wife talking to my good friends wife. They had their own relationship completely separate of mine with my friend. My friends wife text her a long while ago about coming to her birthday party, which my wife never responded too and this weekend is her birthday party. I have no clue who contacted who and for what the reason was. I only happen to know this because I was with my friend when his wife texted him from her work that she was talking to my wife. At first she said my wife was being very vague is their conversation and wasn't talking about anything of our marriage at first. Then to my friends wife's surprise she started to open up quite a bit. I have mentioned this before, but one of the things they shared as friends were support to each other about issues in their marriages. Again, I had nothing to do with this and it was a surprise for me to hear they were even talking. The last time I talked to my friends wife about things she didn't even want to talk to my wife because she was mad at her. As to why I don't really know and I didn't ask the reasons as to why. And as for what your w thinks you are saying to others,
what do you think she believes?
Why is that?
Here is the thing, Im not bad mouthing her in anyway and the only people that know we are having issues are the people who are connected to us and our lives and I had to tell. I also don't think she is talking bad about me, but I don't put her friends and family are not saying to many good things about me. That is not a crazy hunch I have, but through things my wife has said to me and what she has told to my family. So, yes it surprising to me that she leads with that comment "I don't know what Cali has told you". I have only told people that truth and I continually take credit for what I have done wrong to the point of people telling me I am taking to much of the responsibility. BTW I"m sorely tempted to reach out to my MIL b/c I love her and want her to think well of me. Since she has not reached out, it makes me think h has bad mouthed me to her in some wacky ways. There is a kernel of truth to what I THINK he says, so that part shames me, although it's just a story I tell myself, isn't it?
Maybe Im confused about what you are saying here, but are you saying that she says "I don't know what Cali told you" is giving her shame because there is truth in it or was that intended for me? Still, it's so NOT something for you to worry about if you know you are being loyal and respectful to your w and marriage.
Personally I don't worry about it and maybe that is the problem I don't worry about many things. I do bring things up because others pose questions like this me to and I say I don't know, let me pose this to DB and see what they say. My mother is a big part of that process and she is the one who is pursuing my wife the most by far and she just can't leave it alone. It drives me nuts!!!!! I can't tell her enough that it isn't her issue and it's not her problem to solve. She is so constantly involved in her head with it that she can't drop it even though she is currently on vacation!
If I were Not reading your posts very carefully, which for some reason I am, I'd think you believe your w was just being a spoiled little nut & many would assume an affair (to be frank, some folks here
literally always assume an affair and they harp almost exclusively on it beyond belief). I'm not one of those people.
I don't think it is constructive, as it totally stops the LBSers path of growth b/c now they blame it ALL on the OP. Plus, they can be wrong.
But while affairs may all be wrong, they are not all alike.
I don't think automatically there is an affair. If there is one thing my wife and I had between us it was trust with things like that, but there are different levels of affairs. When I checked the phone records so long ago it was evident what was happening there. By the way I have not bothered to check them again even though my mother is constantly trying to get me too. My advice is always the same to her and that is it doesn't do me any good. My mother is only meaning well I know and I have already upset her by telling her to leave it the hell alone, but it is a constant battle with her...... like I said she is on vacation right now and I just got a call from her this morning asking me about things.I think your w wanted out of being far from her support system, and didn't like being lonely and depressed. There are reasons you mostly seem to "cognitively know" but just do not accept as being
as valid or weighty of as logical and important as your reasons for Not wanting to leave, are. You can spin it and spend paragraphs explaining that as if I'm too dense or as if you are "just not being clear" but on that issue, you are wordy but clear.
Yes I've read your explanations for not moving, and it still boils down to this: you don't want to leave CA - unless Maybe - you know your w will return to the m AND that you'd find a job you like and enjoy there, AND somehow recover the money lost on the house and and and and other conditions you would need precedent to a move...
basically lowering your risk a lot, while asking your w to take all the risk and move back based on your promises to do things better...but back there...which is her underlying complaint.
First of all I never thought you were dense, but if I feel I misrepresented myself I am going to speak up. I hear what you are saying and I know you have constantly repeated it too. At this point in time I am not making any drastic measures. Especially one that would leave me without a home, job and a wife. You circumvent the points I make by saying - politely and at some length, that I'm wrong or that I "don't understand..."
**Hey, I stopped bringing that up b/c I know it's a lost cause. I figure that the strong chance you had of recon is lessened by ignoring that advice, but it's not eliminated. And I could always be wrong. So I labor on.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to make you feel that your advise is not taking into account and or liked. I really do appreciate your engagement with me on all facets of my situation. Please don't let my stubbornness to discourage you. That is certainly not my intention I'd suggest you watch Esther Perel's TED talk on infidelity. NOT b/c I think she's having a PA but Because it's about more than affairs,
it's about why relationships fall apart ...and how some can be restored and on occasion, deepened, after an A. Not all can survive an affair but She has great research on this and more than one book/TED talk.
I will check the video out as soon as I'm done responding here. Thank you!I have a hunch I have not fleshed out, but will give you now b/c I can't post to you for a few days...just to ponder.
You remind me of someone (NOT my h!!) but a man who spends time away from family for work and then when he's home he's sort of "omnipresent" with his w and kids. Maybe he wants to reassert leadership in the family or compensate for absence, etc.
Like he's making up for lost time I guess. OF course the teenagers and wife have developed their own routine so he's sort of crashing in, or being unintentionally a bit too much "there" with them when he is home. This was okay when the kids were little but now they have their own lives.
So if you feel like you have less control like all LBSers feel, that often makes a man more intrusive and hovering over your wife, which is seen as over bearing and controlling (whereas with returning women I think it comes across as needy & clingy)
----Even if it's all from a distance. Maybe you were kind of in her face when you were home or maybe it was more of the same old distance with your work but
I definitely wouldn't say I was over bearing and who knows maybe she would have preferred that because it would have been more attention then I was giving her. Like I have said before she felt that we were just roommates towards the end before she left, so that tells me I was very detached in her eyes. So you have to excuse the feeling that I should do nothing now and detach even more that it is the answer to mending my marriage. The pattern I have seen out of my wife so far, as I think on it, is that every time I pull away she brings up divorce. Not to mention the fact that she brought up the point that I she noticed that I was detaching from her as if it was more of the same feeling and treatment I was giving when I was home.NOW, with your loss of access, you are sort of hard core pursuing her - in your head at least.
Majority of my time isn't even thinking about what is happening and for the most part I talk about things because my friends and family are always asking me about things and wanting up dates. Believe it or not they all miss her too. Hyper analyzing messages and even thinking if she goes to see her brother in GA that a guy you stalked on fb, who lives 3 hours away and to whom she had messaged in the past, might be her true intended target...SIGH...even if you are "right"
you have no control over any of this^^...Cali, do you have an IC? If not, why not?
Off the top of my head, I don't know any LBSer who has Not seen a therapist or IC or priest, and over the months - the only people I know who did recon, had someone counseling them in their corner. Just saying.
I have considered and did one time call with a DB coach, but it wasn't that productive because I had to spend so much time bring them up to date on my situation and then he had very little to say. Then he was like time up got to go. If I call a DB coach again it's going to be a ton of catch up first which takes up the majority of the time. I really wish that they could at least read your posts on here before engaging with you. It would save a ton of time. It gets to be expensive very fast and I don't have the money to do it. The way I see it is I am going to spend the money I would rather go with my wife to see a DB coach in person regardless of the outcome. It is what it is. She doesn't want to see or even talk about counseling because she thinks it does no good. I don't have the money to do it either, so there you go. I have no problem excepting that for what it is.Next---
TO ME
and take this with the concern from a DB woman who'll never meet you but who supports you -
The texts about you not sleeping well, are... kind of like a boring form of pressure. And late at night...
I took a chance with that because she seems to care about the idea that I am losing sleep over things. Not getting sleep is also a very big part of her life and is a constant thing to her. I thought perhaps I was showing empathy for her real issues. It's as simple as that, but OK it's boring and I get that. seems like You are standing around wanting to talk to her without anything of great interest to tell her. How is that productive at all? "Some contact is better than no contact" is Not necessarily true.
Why doesn't that just prove either how little you two have to say of importance to each other (no deep connection) or how little you have in common?
If you are backing off of emotional disclosures to avoid pursuing her, that's totally fine.
If she only says blah blah blah talk, tell her to get a good night's sleep and catch up later.
IF SHE opens up A LOT and seems interested in how you feel about something, then for God's sake open up and make yourself vulnerable
without expectation of her...
But if you are just shooting the breeze, answer by making it interesting and real. Not necessarily "fascinating" ...(I mean, don't force this but give it some thought)
I'm guessing you experience things in the day, at work or socially. So you must have specifics to say (not just "had a good day, how about you?" - which is both boring and putting the onus of the conversation on her)
but something like "Oh, major weirdness today! Today Boss lost his temper at manager, and manager went whacko on him- I thought I'd need to duck" // OR "so it turns out manager was shagging his partner's wife and got caught, what a %#$*..."
OR "bummer, layoffs coming, lots of tension at office,
I'm a little nervous",
/new product out and stock is skyrocketing, feels exciting" "got a nice review today and looks like I may get a bonus/promotion so feeling a little proud" -
hey - things do happen in your day, right? SHARE that and when it makes sense, share how you feel about it.
This ^^way, you are sharing your day to day life -when of interest, and you are disclosing your reactions AND it is all without R pressure~. Make sense?
When the time comes, you can share your emotions about the m and your role -
specifically, not generally "do better/be more loving" that is too vague, which I know I've said here a few times to you.
Talking of my work seems counter productive because that was a soar spot for her and I lot of the times talking about things that went on during my day make her feel pressured. Talking about the things Im doing in the house, like moving into her spaces and removing things of her and about us. People visiting that are concerned about her. Going to the gym, which is also a soar spot for her. It honestly seems like my day to day activities will make her feel pressured. This is tricky it seems, but you make it sound so easy and I wish it was. I try to talk to her about her day to day things, but it's like pulling teeth at times. We usually start out pretty slow, but do eventually get to talking naturally. I suggest you lay off on how well you know her (= "I'm so good for you, better than anyone else and MAYBE I know you better than you know yourself... and thought I'd mention it again" or "You need me and I thought I'd mention it...in a slightly different way...again")
This was based off of advice I read from this site and others. Maybe I try to hard to implement the advice. What I feel like doing the most is just stopping everything. I last text her over a week ago, which I posted up and we had pretty good conversation going and then I cut off texting her for over a week and then I said HI to her a couple nights ago and never got a response for me. So do I keep the, what seems, heathly texting back and forth going on or just stop and only text her when she texts me. The last time I did that I get a text telling me sorry for doing it this way, but divorce papers are on the way. What's with telling her how you can't sleep either on the exact same nights (um, no it's not true and she knows that) plus
you never disclose why...
do you have any
specific interesting questions for her?
If You have had racing thoughts (most of us do in these situations), tell her
one thing that helped you - and btw mindfulness and meditation are Not just for Southern Californians anymore.
When it's not the middle of the night, Ask her about work/family/school/friends or a specific thing of interest to her...or you. Places she's been, things she joined, old stomping grounds, etc.
It's not all about you or people who are for/against the m.
Heck, I'm in my old stomping grounds now. My friends are supportive of my happiness in my new life OR if h and i recon, which I know some want. -But they don't have all the info-
Our loves ones do not want to see us in pain.
The DB books talk about this^^ - though I think they overstate one thing.
If You or your w are cycling thru the
same old complaints to the same people, yes she may get pushed to get out of the m just b/c the recipient is frustrated hearing the same old,
and has no idea what else to say.
But generally, people are trying to help.
Don't worry about what you cannot control, which is most of this.Back to you, Bring something to the table, man. I know you have it in you.
I guess that's the problem I can't seem to bring anything to the table, maybe I should just stop trying. I have told her I don't want a divorce and I think we should work things out, so I think maybe I should just lay off with everything a give her what she wants. The issue I have had with that every time I think of it is that I feels like giving up and I don't want to be the one who ultimately gives into the divorce. Now it's late for ME and I have to get ready for a trip.
Sorry this was so long winded. (Don't send it to your wife!)
Thank you again for always supporting me even when
I am sure I am maddening to you. I don't ever mind long winded so type all you like. Enjoy your trip and I hope to talk to you more when you get back. I certainly won't send it to my wife and I really wish that would have never happened it really bothered me that it did. I don't see anymore of a reason to have to email my mother about it anymore.
I have decided to go see my wife. I just booked a flight and I will be there this Thursday. This is something that she will not expect and I'm going to surprise her by just showing up. I will be staying with a buddy of mine, so it's not like I'm crashing her parents house. After reading some more of the DR book today I decided that I'm going to do the exact opposite of what I have been doing with now fear about it making things worse.
I also decided not to tell my wife before hand either. After a very good discussion with a 75 years lady who is a family friend I decided it's best not to say anything and actually surprise my wife that way she won't have time to have any of her friends and family to whisper in her ear about the situation. I am going to take the initiative and go with what my gut has been telling me to do. I know my wife and myself best and I think this needs to happen for both of us. A face to face is long over due. My plan is to go and enjoy our time together and talk about the relationship too, although I want to restrict it to a short time of 30 min or less.
The family friend who I just run into by chance to day at the supermarket has been married for over 55 years and is only not married because her husband died recently. She had a lot of great advice for me and she actually mentioned a lot of things mentioned here, almost like she had been here before. She is in agreement with me on making the move to go see my wife. I know a lot of you probably think this is suicide, but I really don't think so. I really believe deep down that my wife needs me to show her that I care enough to come after her. This is not in a needy crazy pursuing way either, because I know that is being thought.
I need to show her that she is important enough to spend the time and money to come see her and take action and make that decision. I am not doing this in an expectation that she is going to come back with me in the least. All I want is to spend time with my wife and just be around her.
Oh my.
You are doing this for YOU, not her. You are trying to control the situation. YOU think your wife needs this?
No, YOU need it. She is going to see this as selfish controlling and manipulative rather than you being her knight in shining armour spending money on a plane ticket. She is going to see right through all of this and it is not going ot go how you expect.
YOU think you will go there, enjoy some time with her and have R talks and limit their times? Well, there is only one person making this plan, but it takes two to make that happen and you are having no consideration for the other half of this.
You think this needs to happen for the both you but she doesn't even get a say? You really think this is going to be met with posisitivity?
I don't want to sound mean, but this is a very transparent selfish move. It has everything to do about you and no consideration for her. Wayward wives do not take kindly to that.
Cali, I agree with Ginger, but I completely understand the feeling that sometimes you have to do what you have to do.. Unfortunately we all feel our situation is different, that we and our spouses R is different, that we know that something will help even when everyone else is warning us about it. You mentioned that we all are going to think it's a bad idea, so you somewhat understand the risks, so I'm not going to harp on it.
I hope that you share what your real expectations are, what do you envision her doing/saying when she finds out your in town, how do you think spending time together is going to work (go to dinner, spend a day together somewhere, etc), and what you think the outcome will be, as far as how her seeing you is going to bring you closer to your goal. And then let us know how things go when you get back.
I wish you the best, I really do, but I would suggest not to make your expectations to high. I personally don't think she is going to happy about you just showing up.
Cali,
I kind of agree with the others above, but a little part of me struggles with doing the same thing you are doing, so I'm SO going to be watching to see how this goes for you. Please, either way, let us know. Right now I'm so much more detached from my H and the outcome of our M, that I'm not tempted at all to surprise visit him 1000 miles away, but I have seriously considered it on occasion, when I just didn't think I could live in limbo any more. I've even had some of my loved ones advise me to do it, although my IC said DO NOT just show up unannounced.
I will be praying for you to have no expectations, the strength and grace you need if things go badly, and the courage to truly just admit defeat if that happens and escape with your head held high and your dignity intact. BUT, things could also go great! Please, please, update!
And best of luck. I've followed you from the beginning and I've seen your struggle. I know you'll be fine either way.
I have decided to go see my wife.
Oh boy. Well I have to say, I agree with Ginger 100%. You're going there filled with expectations of a break-through, but it is not going to happen. Your W is very likely to react negatively to a "surprise" visit from you, the person she wants to see least in the world right now. I spot-read through your thread and see this repeating pattern of you trying to come up with reasons to reach out to your W and people telling you not to and why. So here you go again. This is "more of the same" behavior. It hasn't worked, but you keep trying it hoping for different results. DO A 180!!!!!
This is something that she will not expect and I'm going to surprise her by just showing up.
And you think this will be a "good" surprise for her? Because I cannot imagine it being anything but horrible to her. And I really do mean horrible, like she will be tremendously upset and maybe even a little scared. She thinks she finally has time and space from you and -poof- you just show up on her doorstep without notice. How can that possibly be good?
After reading some more of the DR book today I decided that I'm going to do the exact opposite of what I have been doing with now fear about it making things worse.
YOU ARE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING YOU'VE BEEN DOING SINCE YOU GOT HERE!!!!
I am going to take the initiative and go with what my gut has been telling me to do.
If you take nothing else away from reading DB you should take this- your gut instincts are completely wrong. DBing is hard work because it is COUNTER-INTUITIVE.
I really believe deep down that my wife needs me to show her that I care enough to come after her. This is not in a needy crazy pursuing way either, because I know that is being thought.
That's exactly what it is. Full blown pursuit.
I need to show her that she is important enough to spend the time and money to come see her and take action and make that decision.
No. You need to show her that you respect her enough to give her the time and space she wants.
All I want is to spend time with my wife and just be around her.
I understand that sentiment. But you really need to try and understand the fact that legal papers aside, she is not your W anymore. She's not your GF, your soulmate, your anything. She is severing ties with you. This isn't Hollywood and she's not going to be impressed that you invested time and money in a trip to come see her and ride off into the sunset with you in a convertible. She is going to be ANGRY, SCARED, and more sure than ever that D is the answer.
Here are some brilliant words from 25 posted to you last week, pleas take them to heart:
"Please Cali, Stop trying to manipulate the outcome. You cannot force her back into your arms with words, no matter how correctly they are expressed, or by whom, or by how many, but you sure can push her away."
WOW!! No one has been responding to my posts at all until this one. For your information this is a 180 from what I have been doing, which is sitting on my butt at home and hardly communicating with her. I said I have no expectations of it, but me saying that obviously means nothing. Why is it that I can say one thing and everyone is fine and believes what I am saying, but when I say something else I don't actually mean it? Come on, when I say I don't have expectations of the outcome I really don't. I don't think in the least that this is going to change things drastically at all, but it's going change up what I have been doing completely.
She doesn't think I have been pursuing her in the least. I know this because I read her text message conversation with my buddies wife finally and she really opened up to her. It's a matter of fact that she talked specifically about the fact that I talk to her so sparingly now. She thinks that I put everything before her and the last thing she will expect is me showing up to see her. I know this kind of action would have thrilled her months ago and before she left. In the text messages I read she said that I made it clear that I didn't want to be home with her. Going to see her will show her that I do want to be around her. She thinks that what happened in our relationship was a %100 of what I could give to her and it absolutely isn't. Showing up will show her more effort and not less.
She actually repeated what I have said here that I loved her, but not in the way the she wanted and needed to be loved. Going to see her is a 180, in her eyes and what I read and my buddies wife read from her text was that I don't put her first. She comes across as it being bad that I am not even trying to get her back, so this is what I am going to do. Sometimes advice, even if it usually good advice, which I think it all is on this forum, can bite you in the butt. Knowing my wife and the things that made her happy, going to see her, even if she is cold to me, will mean something to her. If she see's my effort in coming to see her as a horrible act of selfishness then so be it. The fact of the matter is that what I would do if I was only thinking of myself is I wouldn't spend the money to go see her and that is a fact because that is how I feel about it. I would stay home and enjoy my time there before I had to go out on the road again. I'm leaving in one day to go see her because that was the ticket I could afford and coming home the night before I fly back out on the road again. The selfish me would put the fact that I just got home and I have things to do before I go out on the road again so I don't have time to go see my wife period.
Here are some brilliant words from 25 posted to you last week, pleas take them to heart:
"Please Cali, Stop trying to manipulate the outcome. You cannot force her back into your arms with words, no matter how correctly they are expressed, or by whom, or by how many, but you sure can push her away."
This isn't words, this is action I'm taking that is completely different then what I have been doing. Trust me I am not going to pressure her. Like I said I am staying with a goof friend of mine and I am prepared to spend the whole time with him if she can't stand the site of me. My wife says she still loves me and that means a lot.
As I typed this something occurred to me. Does anyone ever think about there being some kind of rhythm to the whole DBing thing. Do or when certain things happen then other things work better. For instance when someone pursues you then suddenly stop by doing the last resort technique, does that make it a more powerful tool.
When I read about the 180's it doesn't say what others think is a 180 it says do what you think is completely different. The way I have been handling the whole situation and dealing with it is the complete opposite of taking my time to go see my wife. This is what I know personally deep down. I found it much easier to just pull back and do very little and I know that is because I am being selfish about it.
Since you've made up your mind then I say go for it. Don't do it half way, go all in. If she responds to grand gestures then make it the grandest. If you accept the potential outcomes of this and plan your strategy/responses either way then you should be ok.
Cali,
I kind of agree with the others above, but a little part of me struggles with doing the same thing you are doing, so I'm SO going to be watching to see how this goes for you. Please, either way, let us know. Right now I'm so much more detached from my H and the outcome of our M, that I'm not tempted at all to surprise visit him 1000 miles away, but I have seriously considered it on occasion, when I just didn't think I could live in limbo any more. I've even had some of my loved ones advise me to do it, although my IC said DO NOT just show up unannounced.
I will be praying for you to have no expectations, the strength and grace you need if things go badly, and the courage to truly just admit defeat if that happens and escape with your head held high and your dignity intact. BUT, things could also go great! Please, please, update!
And best of luck. I've followed you from the beginning and I've seen your struggle. I know you'll be fine either way.
Leahsue, there has been one thing I haven't done at all with my wife and that is show much emotion before or now. It used to really bother her it seems and she would say "nothing ever bothers you". It was always said in an irritating way too. I haven't once pleaded, begged or cried over what my wife has done and is doing. There has been a common theme among what my family and friends that know me and my wife well, that maybe my wife needs to see a little emotion out of me.
The first time I went to see my wife was only because my ticket was bought and paid for to go work at Ft Bragg, NC and I drove to see her when I had a weekend off and not because I was there out of my own effort to see her. I used to plan everything we did around my work schedule in that way and she would complain about that. This is the first time I will not be making the effort and taking the time to go see her on my own dime and time. That is a definite 180 for me and not what everyone else thinks. 180's are all about doing what you know is exactly different then what your previous behavior was and believe me when I tell you that this is not what I would or really want to do.
No worries about me being disappointed and or even telling everyone I was wrong with what happens. I am throwing caution to the wind with this one and doing something that is way out of the norm for me to do. The one thing that has lead me through this whole ordeal with my wife has been being overly cautious and not wanting to take to big of a risk. Some of the stories I read just the other night in the DR book where exactly about that. It's a matter of fact that Michelle the DBing goddess herself spoke of her own experiences with this. Some of the stories talked about how things wouldn't have even changed if they just didn't do what she feared. One story in particular stood out to me. It was about about guy who was walking on eggshells around his wife because he was so afraid he would upset her and drive her to finally leaving him. He finally threw that out the door because he had enough of how she was acting and did the exact opposite of what he was doing.
My head is always held high in winning or defeat and this is something that I truly understand because it's something that I have been doing since a very young age, so no worries there.
Since you've made up your mind then I say go for it. Don't do it half way, go all in. If she responds to grand gestures then make it the grandest. If you accept the potential outcomes of this and plan your strategy/responses either way then you should be ok.
Im not sure what you mean by grand gestures because I am not thinking of showing up with flowers, a guitar, a microphone and speaker and putting on a show. Haha! I am just going to be there in town and if she can't stand the sight or me and really doesn't want to spend time with me then so be it and I will hang out of my friend the whole time. I'm not afraid to walk away and I never have been, but I will not be the one who actually puts up the divorce papers.
I plan on showing up dressed nice and asking her to come get some lunch with me and get out and enjoy the day. I know she has been spending the majority of her time in the house doing nothing, but mainly reading.
Im not sure what you mean by grand gestures because I am not thinking of showing up with flowers, a guitar, a microphone and speaker and putting on a show. Haha! I am just going to be there in town and if she can't stand the sight or me and really doesn't want to spend time with me then so be it and I will hang out of my friend the whole time. I'm not afraid to walk away and I never have been, but I will not be the one who actually puts up the divorce papers.
I plan on showing up dressed nice and asking her to come get some lunch with me and get out and enjoy the day. I know she has been spending the majority of her time in the house doing nothing, but mainly reading.
Sounds like you have a plan. I hope it works out even better than you hope. Have a great trip!
Im not sure what you mean by grand gestures because I am not thinking of showing up with flowers, a guitar, a microphone and speaker and putting on a show. Haha! I am just going to be there in town and if she can't stand the sight or me and really doesn't want to spend time with me then so be it and I will hang out of my friend the whole time. I'm not afraid to walk away and I never have been, but I will not be the one who actually puts up the divorce papers.
I plan on showing up dressed nice and asking her to come get some lunch with me and get out and enjoy the day. I know she has been spending the majority of her time in the house doing nothing, but mainly reading.
Sounds like you have a plan. I hope it works out even better than you hope. Have a great trip!
Thanks for the encouragement! I plan on having fun either way, no reason to waste my time when I am there.
I said I have no expectations of it, but me saying that obviously means nothing. Why is it that I can say one thing and everyone is fine and believes what I am saying, but when I say something else I don't actually mean it?
A lot of us hear ourselves in your comments, so we're trying to help you understand the dynamics of your sitch that you can't see because you're in the middle of it. We've all talked ourselves into doing the wrong things, and come here trying to convince everyone that our sitch is different or it's a 180 for us personally. I know full well that you THINK this is the right thing to do. You are wrong and we're trying to help you see that. We've already seen this type of thing play out and it never goes like the LBS hopes, even when they say they have no expectations.
Come on, when I say I don't have expectations of the outcome I really don't.
You're hoping it will help your sitch, I mean why would you go if you didn't?
It's a matter of fact that she talked specifically about the fact that I talk to her so sparingly now. She thinks that I put everything before her and the last thing she will expect is me showing up to see her. I know this kind of action would have thrilled her months ago and before she left.
Do you read Sandi's posts much? Your W is in justification mode right now. She's going to tell people everything you did wrong and a whole lot of things you probably didn't do wrong to justify the D.
This DOES NOT mean that she wants you to do those things now, she doesn't. This is where a lot of LBS's get confused. Sandi just posted something about this, about how LBS's try to become "super husbands" and do all the things we were deficient on, and about how it has zero impact on the WAS because they are already checked out.
Anyway you're clearly set on going, so I wish you the best of luck. Sometimes we have to do the wrong thing even though everyone warns us, because we are so darned convinced it's -not- wrong. So we have to do it to learn why we should have listened to all the advice
I said I have no expectations of it, but me saying that obviously means nothing. Why is it that I can say one thing and everyone is fine and believes what I am saying, but when I say something else I don't actually mean it?
A lot of us hear ourselves in your comments, so we're trying to help you understand the dynamics of your sitch that you can't see because you're in the middle of it. We've all talked ourselves into doing the wrong things, and come here trying to convince everyone that our sitch is different or it's a 180 for us personally. I know full well that you THINK this is the right thing to do. You are wrong and we're trying to help you see that. We've already seen this type of thing play out and it never goes like the LBS hopes, even when they say they have no expectations.
Come on, when I say I don't have expectations of the outcome I really don't.
You're hoping it will help your sitch, I mean why would you go if you didn't?
I feel this is where so many of you guys are wrong about me. Seeing yourself in my comments doesn't necessarily mean that you're advising is correct. 25Year mentioned on here that "One size does Not fit all, AND some LBSers should pursue." She also said "I was not among those who said not to pursue. At the start I thought you should have flown out there, and at least offered, sincerely, to quit your job when you could." It's a matter of fact that she talked specifically about the fact that I talk to her so sparingly now. She thinks that I put everything before her and the last thing she will expect is me showing up to see her. I know this kind of action would have thrilled her months ago and before she left.
Do you read Sandi's posts much? Your W is in justification mode right now. She's going to tell people everything you did wrong and a whole lot of things you probably didn't do wrong to justify the D.
This DOES NOT mean that she wants you to do those things now, she doesn't. This is where a lot of LBS's get confused. Sandi just posted something about this, about how LBS's try to become "super husbands" and do all the things we were deficient on, and about how it has zero impact on the WAS because they are already checked out.
Anyway you're clearly set on going, so I wish you the best of luck. Sometimes we have to do the wrong thing even though everyone warns us, because we are so darned convinced it's -not- wrong. So we have to do it to learn why we should have listened to all the advice
By the way I even started texting her morning and night. I don't care if she responds or not anymore. I text her last night to get some good sleep tonight and you're always in my heart and on my mind. She gave me no reply and I woke up this morning I text her good morning, I woke up thinking about you, to which I got no reply..... until right now as I am typing this, literally right now. She said good afternoon and is asking about my day. Well its doesn't like my text shut her down yet.
I said I have no expectations of it, but me saying that obviously means nothing. Why is it that I can say one thing and everyone is fine and believes what I am saying, but when I say something else I don't actually mean it?
A lot of us hear ourselves in your comments, so we're trying to help you understand the dynamics of your sitch that you can't see because you're in the middle of it. We've all talked ourselves into doing the wrong things, and come here trying to convince everyone that our sitch is different or it's a 180 for us personally. I know full well that you THINK this is the right thing to do. You are wrong and we're trying to help you see that. We've already seen this type of thing play out and it never goes like the LBS hopes, even when they say they have no expectations.
Come on, when I say I don't have expectations of the outcome I really don't.
You're hoping it will help your sitch, I mean why would you go if you didn't?
Honestly, speaking for myself, I don't care anymore how she reacts to it, but I must put effort so I know that I didn't sit back and let things slip through my fingers. So yeah, for myself or whatever you want to think it is for. Isn't the whole point of DBing all about you? My life hasn't come to a stop because of this and I very much still have a full life, so DBing for me isn't about getting a life. It's about giving myself knowledge about the whole process. I really don't get the whole idea of "You're hoping it will help your sitch" I mean who isn't here hoping that there sitch doesn't get better. I understand the whole idea of not dwelling on it, but I am good in that department and I realize life goes on. I have never had an issue of crying over spilled milk so to speak, obviously this is much more than spilled milk, but none the less life will go on.It's a matter of fact that she talked specifically about the fact that I talk to her so sparingly now. She thinks that I put everything before her and the last thing she will expect is me showing up to see her. I know this kind of action would have thrilled her months ago and before she left.
Do you read Sandi's posts much? Your W is in justification mode right now. She's going to tell people everything you did wrong and a whole lot of things you probably didn't do wrong to justify the D.
This DOES NOT mean that she wants you to do those things now, she doesn't. This is where a lot of LBS's get confused. Sandi just posted something about this, about how LBS's try to become "super husbands" and do all the things we were deficient on, and about how it has zero impact on the WAS because they are already checked out.
Anyway you're clearly set on going, so I wish you the best of luck. Sometimes we have to do the wrong thing even though everyone warns us, because we are so darned convinced it's -not- wrong. So we have to do it to learn why we should have listened to all the advice
Cali, you said you know a lot of people will disagree that's it's the best move, but your doing it anyway.. A few people have told you why they think it's a bad move, but ended up saying wish you luck.
Look, you don't need to get defensive, it's your M and your life, if you want suggestions/help from others who've been through it, we are here.. If you don't want feedback, either don't post it till afterwards or just say I'm doing this, please don't tell me why it's a bad idea.
Your methods are different than the General DB methods, and I personally haven't seen them work, but I hope for your sake they do.. Just tell us what YOU want from us, cause I really don't know if I should support you, or pont out the issues/concerns with what you're doing.
Cali,
From a point tonight of really, truly realizing that my M is probably over, then seeing you insist on doing what you think is right (and again, I remind you, I have been SO tempted to do exactly what you are about to do)...... I sincerely wish you the very best, and please post how this turns out, if for no one else than me, b/c I still wonder what would have happened in my sitch if I had done what you are doing. Peace and love to you, no matter the outcome.
Cali, you said you know a lot of people will disagree that's it's the best move, but your doing it anyway.. A few people have told you why they think it's a bad move, but ended up saying wish you luck.
Look, you don't need to get defensive, it's your M and your life, if you want suggestions/help from others who've been through it, we are here.. If you don't want feedback, either don't post it till afterwards or just say I'm doing this, please don't tell me why it's a bad idea.
Your methods are different than the General DB methods, and I personally haven't seen them work, but I hope for your sake they do.. Just tell us what YOU want from us, cause I really don't know if I should support you, or pont out the issues/concerns with what you're doing.
I have never said I didn't want or appreciate feedback. I was just surprised to have no feedback at all from quite a few posts of mine until I posted this one little thing and then boom. Haha! I enjoy the feedback and appreciate all of it rather it's good or bad.
Cali,
From a point tonight of really, truly realizing that my M is probably over, then seeing you insist on doing what you think is right (and again, I remind you, I have been SO tempted to do exactly what you are about to do)...... I sincerely wish you the very best, and please post how this turns out, if for no one else than me, b/c I still wonder what would have happened in my sitch if I had done what you are doing. Peace and love to you, no matter the outcome.