Thread number three. Seems like a negative milestone.
Previous thread I really don't know what else to say right now. Thanks Kaizen and hoosjim for the advice.
Picking up D is turning into the most stressful part of my week. Instead of five minutes it turns into a couple of hours where W and I spew at each other a little bit and then cry (not in front of D).
W and I agreed to pretty much complete NC at this point, unless D emergency, as a means to avoid both of us going crazy. Maybe the space will help.
Space will deff. help. And remember, it takes 2 to tango. Don't engage her in any way shape or form. Don't let her push your buttons, she clearly know how to...
Just wondering why there is still so much emotion wrapped up in this when you are involved with someone else. Why are you engaging? Mine is on OW2. He shows up here, picks up the kids or stays here with them. No discussion about anything. No drama. Decouple the R discussions from the pickups/dropoffs.
I'm really poor at staying detached. I've made it a few times, but eventually something draws me in and I'm stuck in the tar again. Still caring isn't helping things.
NC should be good for both of us. Here's hoping.
Instead of five minutes it turns into a couple of hours where W and I spew at each other a little bit and then cry (not in front of D).
What are YOU going to do to change this pattern?
Also, have you told GF about these sessions? Curious what her opinion is. (Note: if the person I was seeing was wrapped up in this kind of emotional discussion with the person they are still married to...I would be extremely uncomfortable).
My plan is to keep working on detachment. Haven't heard from W in three days. It's helping. When I'm detached (for however short a time) I can see the truth: there are literally no upsides to a life with W. None. That makes my heart shut the hell up and allow my head to run the show. Even when I'm attached, I know it won't make ME happy (and the sad truth is that it wouldn't make W or D happy, either).
Yes, I've told GF. How could I not? I'm not a liar, I'm not going to live a double life, and I'm not going to hide things. GF knows exactly where I stand on everything. Yes, this makes her uncomfortable (on multiple levels. Scared that I will end up hurting her and going back to W. Also, I actually have been told that if she's ever the only reason I don't want to fix my M, that I need to go fix my M. Religious issue for her).
Still hanging in there. Six weeks until Divorce is final.
So I just got done reading your three threads from start to finish. I know I've seen posts here and there in the past but wanted to get a better read before I commented.
Since you already admit you won't follow advice, even when you know you should, I'm not sure why I'm taking the time to bother. If nothing else, maybe I'll help another reader. It would be great if you can even take one thing from me and improve on it.
You seem very honest and don't at all sound like a guy who wants to hurt anyone. You are not mean or cruel by any means. You do scream of impulsiveness and immaturity. You want what you want at the moment and can't stop yourself even when you know you should. You want to control everything and think you actually can. You know best, your way is the correct way - therefore you won't listen to anyone else.
First off you are not "in love" with this new girl. Oh you think you are but you are not. This is so classic, text book easy stuff any first year student could see it. You want to speak in absolutes and can't even see there is a potential you are wrong. You say things like "there are litterly no upsides to a life with W. None" really? Cmon, really? How about D having both of her parents? That's not an upside? What about honoring your commitment to your vows? That's not an upside? See you know darn well, if you think about it, there could be upsides - you just don't want to see them because you are "in love" with this new perfect person who you could not find a bad thing about if you tried.
When you read that as I have written it, do you see how immature and impulsive you sound? You have put yourself in such a trench that I'm not sure you could do worse if you tried. I'm sorry for the steal beam as my comments are way beyond a 2X4 but you are making some huge mistakes here. Others are trying to tell you, but you don't even want to consider it. Ginger gave you some deep, heart felt expierence she just went through. She can see now what she could not when she was in the thick of it. You are not thinking clearly. True love does not happen like it does "in the movies" - that's why they are movies - fictitious Hollywood. It's not real life.
So what then should you be doing? Well pretty much any C worth their salt would say STOP this with this new GF right now. In fact you can't find any fault in her, well I'll give you a red flag here, she should not be dating a married man. She even knows it, yet is doing it. RED FLAG. Plus, don't hurt her by dragging her into all of this. If you really do love her as you think and claim, you would not do this to her. If this is meant to be with you two, it will still be there several months from now after you D. Until them you should not be doing this with and to her.
Second, you are not done with W - that is clear. You have now turned into the WAS - it is now you walking away. Should you and W be together? Well you already made that commitment did you not? You agreed to stand beside her in good and bad. So now the bad is here and you turn to another person. I know you THINK you can never love her again but you can. Will you? Who knows. All I know is you are still connected to her. When you don't care what she does, don't think about her, don't argue with her, don't engage, then and only then will you really be done.
I hope you'll hear me on at least a few of these things. I think deep down you know I'm right. It's just easier to take the path you have put yourself on in your Hollywood romance fairytail. It really is time to grow up and slow down. Be the man that D6 will look up to years from now because you did the right thing with her mom - regardless if the two of you D or not.
You seem very honest and don't at all sound like a guy who wants to hurt anyone. You are not mean or cruel by any means. You do scream of impulsiveness and immaturity. You want what you want at the moment and can't stop yourself even when you know you should. You want to control everything and think you actually can. You know best, your way is the correct way - therefore you won't listen to anyone else.
I needed to quote this and respond to this because I am sort of the same way. My impulse control needs to be better. So thanks for saying that (not to me, but I am trying to control my impulse that I want everything fixed now, or if not fixed, that we are working on things together, we seemed sort of to do that last week but OM was there and I wasn't just happy with an inch.
Also EastTN I am 40 (turning 41 this year) and my W is 30. So that was eerie to see that.
You say your "GF" wants to fix your marriage if you can for "religious" beliefs. I would imagine her strong religious beliefs should stop her dating a married man.......
I dated before I was ready, but I got serious with no one. When did I know I was truly ready? When my ex could no longer provoke a reaction out of me except fi it wasn't something about our child I didn't agree with. When I no longer felt the need to spew or get into it. when I dropped speaking of our M, what there was, or what was no longer or could be or should have been. When we stopped discussing us or our marriage that was over.
What you are doing now REEKS of an affair. Now, I am not saying that as in your having one. Our WAS find someone else who lights their fire and finds everything wrong with us. All of a sudden, we are the people they can see no positives to be being with. Their OP has everything in common with them, their are no issues, they are perfect together, and well, the LBS is not someone they could be with ever.
Just like you wrote.
Hey, your exW may not the one. Or she might be. But I encourage you to get a clearer picture without someone else fogging it up.
Don-great post!
East TN (lovely area by the way!,
I'm sorry you find yourself here. I have been quietly reading this thread and please know, I have been called many things, but never have I been called judgmental. I'm pretty open minded, however, I did notice your comment about GF not wanting to interfere with your marriage of something of the sort because of religious reasons. Um....there is some irony in that because you are MARRIED. Sorry, hope I don't sound like a stick in the mud. That is not a knock against her-I'm sure she is a lovely person. I'm just pointing out something rather obvious.
I have only read this thread but this seems to be moving at speed of light!!!! Can I ask you something? What is the rush????? Am I reading that BD was in late October. It's early June so if I am calculating correctly you think you are in love with someone else while married to your W a mere 7 or 8 months after the initial BD? I know we are all different, however, THIS I cannot buy as legit.
As Don said, you seem like a genuine guy with no malice intended towards anyone. I agree with everyone that I don't get the spewing with your W. That blows my mind too. You are allegedly in love....what are you fighting with your W about?? Maybe I missed something in the first 2 threads?
I don't know. I have never had any desire to date a married or separated man. Again, I'm not religious (quite the opposite) so *I* would question what kind of man I was dating if we was still married. He might be sweet, funny, kind, and fabulous to be around, BUT I would have a VERY difficult time just pushing this aside. Again, this is not directed towards your GF-this is more about your situation.
So again, what is the big hurry? And as always, I truly am sorry you find yourself here. It's a tough place to be with some awesome folks.
Apologize, I was distracted and there are many errors. It should read "the only time a reaction was provoked from me was when it was something that involved our child that I didn't agree with"
and please excuse my incorrect usage of "their, there, and they're" so unlike me.
Oh, and sorry Ginger. I missed your post. Spot on with what I was thinking!
Well look at that, as I suggested at the start, I might help some other reader here. Hopefully I did and there will be more. I still have confidence in at least a few light bulbs starting to glow for East as well.
Your comment on the age gap was also something I noticed but did not include in my comments. But, yes, at least in some cases this fits the rest of the picture - just not all cases. In East's case, he was dating a 25 year old at 36. That's a large gap - especially at those ages. The maturity aspect again comes into play - for both parties. The average 25 yr/o is just in such a different place than the average 36. I'd be curious in knowing how old the new GF is?
and for me that was worse: she was 20 I was 30. But I never felt our age gap was a real issue. It seems that NOW she is 30 she is reconsidering things. Just trying to figure out if she is depressed because of our marriage or because of something else. I know when I was 30 I wasn't possessing the skills I needed to avoid many of our problems. I am working on it, but my impulsive nature and desire to just have her in my arms are interfering
DonH you are obviously a h*lluva guy, your posts are always so human and insightful. Ginger and Georgiabelle, I'm big fans of yours from comments I've read on other threads.
Something I meant to say to East and didn't, was that in addition to the other comments that have been made, I think if you could have something meaningful with this woman in the future, you are risking that now by becoming involved too quickly and too deeply. If that relationship is "meant to be" it should be something that can be put aside while you do right by your vows and your D.
I dipped into the onling dating pool in January. I quickly learned that I had no place being involved with anyone (I kicked H out in October). As Ginger said, until you can discuss the marriage without emotion (in my case tears, which I could not) then you are not ready to be with anyone.
As I recall your W was starting to come around a bit. Perhaps just a touch and go at realizing that she could lose you, but what happens if things don't work out with GF, and you see how D has been harmed by this, and you regret not working harder to save the marriage. Personally, I want to have no reget. Although I feel done, I am carrying on and abiding by DB and giving my H his space and, without hope (a nod to you Andrew) I am leaving the door ever so slightly ajar.
My experience in January and yours with this GF establishes that there are people out there. You do not have to be alone forever. You can have feelings for someone again. But, it should be with a clean conscience, a clear head, and an open heart. I agree with the others that the problems maintaining your emotions with W spell big time disaster for where you are heading.
Please give this some thought.
DonH,
Thanks for taking the time to read all of the crap I've posted, and to put together your response. I realize that I'm a frustrating SOB to give advice to. I really DO listen to it, even if I don't always (okay, rarely) follow it. Sometimes it takes me years to figure out something was the right thing at the time. Sometimes I figure it out milliseconds after I've done the wrong thing. Sometimes I even get things right.
Preface: I am thinking out loud here, not justifying.
I'll readily admit that I think I'm immature. Naive may be a better word. Impulsive? Sure seems so. The messed up thing is that isn't who I am. Under normal circumstances, the best word to describe me is DELIBERATE. I think about things slowly. I plan things. I act after I am sure something is the correct course of action. Often, I take too long to do that (analysis paralysis leads to waiting too long). Under this kind of stress, I go to pieces. I'm an introvert, and I will literally tell strangers what's going on in my life right now. This is my blind spot. The worst place for me to be. The thing I have no plans for. No tools for. No defenses against. Last time I went through a divorce, suicide was a serious option for me (to be fair, I Was being systemically mentally and emotionally abused by 1st W at the time). I got to see the inside of a county jail for what I almost did to myself. I'd run away from this, if I had the option. Move to Alaska and never talk to anyone from my old life. Thankfully, that's not an option for me, and I'm forced to deal with reality, rather than the world I wish I had.
You called me a control freak. I'm not. I don't care about control. Don't want it. Generally reject it. I'll only try to control a situation if it needs to be and no one else is going to. I'd always rather follow than lead. It's probably one of the biggest things wrong with me, to be honest. I HATE responsibility, and that's what control is. When I'm faced with it, I live up to it, but I don't ever want to HAVE to. And I keep finding myself with it, and I live up to it, regardless of it's what I want (or at least regardless of if it's what wanted when I first had the responsibility). Times like this? Yeah, I desperately want to control ME. It seems like I Can't even do that half the time.
You have me on the "I know best." I'm used to being right. When I'm wrong, I am usually REALLY wrong to make up for that.
I won't touch the "in love" part. I can't. When I introspect, I keep coming to the same conclusions, that this is real. However, I'm told insane people never believe they are insane. So my conclusions are suspect. How the heck can I be absolute if I can't trust my perceptions? But who the heck can I listen to here? I've got a therapist that listens to what I'm saying and tells me that I appear to be on a positive path. Her advice (which I also have trouble following, of course) has been sound. It differs from most I'm getting here, but she also has more complete information. More than just written words. Body language, voice cues, etc. How can I not trust that?
"No upside." Here's where I go to absolutes. I really don't see any. Not even D having both of her parents. I've LIVED that. I have BEEN my daughter, and she will NEVER be me. My parents got back together after divorce and it was a disaster. Will it be positive if D goes through this AGAIN at age 8? AGAIN at age 10? Protecting her, giving her a good life, sacrificing anything I need to is my priority zero. If I believed for a minute this would be better for her, I'd do anything to make it happen. Give up GF. Swallow any amount of pride. Do any amount of work. Forgive anything I needed to. Learn to trust again. Be someone I hated. In a heartbeat.
Yes, I've become the WAS.
But W has literally changed nothing. Her ideal endgame here seems to be that she somehow keeps both me and the OM. I'm pretty sure that's been her goal since day one. Vows are broken, tattered, and torn. Lies pile up by the dozen. When when I know the truth, have proof, I get lied to. Even when lying DOESN'T MATTER. Can't actually improve the situation for her. I got her to go through six different iterations of a story in roughly thirty minutes. It got worse each time. I'm about 95% that iteration six is STILL not the whole thing. Whatever else I may be, doing the "right thing" is incredibly important to me. Staying in a marriage I would be miserable in is something I would (I HAVE!) done, for the sake of the vows I made. My WW/WAW/WTF hasn't changed, though. Isn't going to. Has no desire to. I remember when this started, and I asked if she had done anything to try to change how she was feeling, her response was "I don't think I should have to work to be happy." To me, that says everything.
Even when W is crying that she doesn't want to not be my wife anymore, that's not enough to generate ANY kind of positive action. That's why I see no upside. She's SELFISH. She hasn't been a good wife. She's a terrible mother. She hasn't remotely done "her part" in our marriage. I've got my problems, and acknowledge them, and am working on them, but she's done NOTHING more than sit on her ass for two years. I allowed that (I've made noises about her going back to work, etc, but never pressed the issue) and I have to own that, but god, I'm not responsible for all of it! I'm not responsible for her affairs, or her lies, or her complete lack of respect for me or our marriage, or our family, for her lack of self esteem, or for her bad choices. I've also come around to Jeep's point of view, that there's no point sticking around for a cheater.
I got left with EVERY responsibility in our shared lives! ALL OF THEM! I'm dad, AND I'm mom! I'm the breadwinner AND the nurturer! Pay the bills, take care of the pets, take and pickup from school, doctors appointments, take off work for D when she can't go to school. She screams that she isn't going to get enough time with D, but WON'T SHOW UP FOR ANYTHING! I GOT LEFT WITH EVERYTHING! NO HELP! NONE! I can't rely on ANYONE! I HAVE NO FAMILY within 500 miles of here! THIS [censored] IS ALL ON ME! I WANT TO BREAK SOMETIMES, AND I CAN'T! CAN'T! And she sits there on her damned xbox with her fantasy boyfriend as I STILL support her! HOW CAN I POSSIBLY BELIEVE THERE IS ANY UPSIDE HERE? EVER AGAIN? The fact that I don't hate the ground she walks on is a freaking MIRACLE.
Your statement that I've got myself in a trench hits home. I've felt almost exactly that. I agree that I couldn't have messed things up more if I tried. I put myself on a path that I feel like I have to walk (that I'm actually enjoying being on that path isn't material to the fact that I feel constrained to walk it). When I analyze this, I come to the conclusion that it IS the "Right" path, rather than JUST the easy one (my experience says "right" and "easy" are usually NOT friends. Any situation where they seem to be merits extra caution).
My M is gone. It's not coming back. Maybe what I'm doing with GF is too soon. Maybe it won't last. Maybe I'm making another mistake. But dammit, why the hell can't I make mistakes? Everyone else in my life has, for my whole damn life. I've ALWAYS had to be the responsible one. ALWAYS! And I HATE RESPONSIBILITY. I AM being responsible for D. I AM showing her that I've done right by her mother. I will ALWAYS do right by her mother, no matter what it costs me. But trying to "fix" us is NOT doing right! I don't have to THINK I can love her again. I still love that broken, damaged creature she is. That doesn't change the "NO WAY IS THIS A GOOD THING!" mentality I have when it comes to my M!
Past that, why can't I have something nice for once? Why can't I get blindsided and fall in love like a bad movie? I can't reason myself out of this one: the compatibility and chemistry here is through the roof. Someone who DOESN'T NEED ME for once in my life. Someone who DOESN'T CARE what I can give them, or do for them. Someone who encourages me to keep being my own person. That I can talk philosophy with, or books, or art, or about childish things. Make out in a movie theater like teenagers for the first time in my life. Feel PASSION that has NEVER ONCE been part of my life in my four decades. See that passion looking RIGHT BACK AT ME when I look into another set of eyes. Why is this so bad? Why walk away from something good, JUST for someone who doesn't DESERVE the chance, or for a marriage that is already dead??
WHY?
I feel like I AM trying to grow up. Being "single dad" has lit a fire under me in that regard. I don't GET to slack. I don't GET to mess up. I'm not ALLOWED to fail, or fall down in that regard. The "adult" thing to do is always in the front of my mind. And I almost always do it, these days, no matter how much I may not want to.
I am listening to you. I really am. I agree you're right on some of it. I'll even admit to the possibility it's all of it. I don't sit here and try to justify my actions, though. I always look at what I've done, and what I'm doing, and make sure that when all is said and done I'll be able to look in the mirror. I feel guilty sometimes about what I'm doing. I'm not sure if it's because I think I'm doing wrong, or if it's because I feel like this is something too good for me. But guilty or not I can still look in the mirror, and I can still look at my child and feel like i'm a good man. I Don't knwo that you can ask for more than that in life.
I'll readily admit that I think I'm immature. Naive may be a better word. Impulsive? Sure seems so. The messed up thing is that isn't who I am. Under normal circumstances, the best word to describe me is DELIBERATE. I think about things slowly. I plan things. I act after I am sure something is the correct course of action. Often, I take too long to do that (analysis paralysis leads to waiting too long). Under this kind of stress, I go to pieces. I'm an introvert, and I will literally tell strangers what's going on in my life right now. This is my blind spot. The worst place for me to be. The thing I have no plans for. No tools for. No defenses against.
It's as if I hear myself. One of the challenges has been that I say no to trips and fun things because I need to plan and figure out the budget. So one of my 180s has been to try to be more spontaneous but in doing so I sometimes push a little too fast.
And yes me too, I am used to being right and in reality I am right maybe 50/50. But people look to me for advice. That was my arrogance earlier on when W asked for MC and I said nah we just need to talk better. Last week she said she really wished I would have shown this side earlier. But she seems a bit intrigued still. Just very scared that I will fall back into my old self (two days ago I kind of did for a little bit) and I think while she doesn't see a real future with OM, he does make her laugh, and he knows how to be dominant in the bedroom, something I am more clumsy with. He doesn't expect much. But the spell he has over her needs to be broken. And her depression needs to be addressed. I think the depression may be a small step in the right direction that she knows what she did was wrong but she isn't ready to move on because she doesn't feel the A was the reason our M was in trouble. So I cannot make it about that. And in reality while the A was hurtful. My actions were hurtful too. We need a new marriage so in reality she didn't cheat.
But long story short: yes, I get what you are saying about suddenly being impulsive. I had that side in me but not for the right things. So I need to be impulsive romantically when (IF?) our M gets back on track but not impulsive in expecting big changes.
I hope that helps. (I am actually typing it out for myself too...)
East,
I just think what everyone is saying is to take it slow with this new GF. Just the other day you were telling everyone how hard it is for you to detach from your W and how it would be so much easier if you still didn't care.
I get were you are coming from, I really do. The woman my W turned into made me want to scream out just like you did. Why don't I deserve happiness?!?! Why do I have to be the sole responsible one for our kids while she is off running around with the OM!?! Why can't I have something nice for once?!?! All the while doing this I realized something... that I was still hurt. I just think if you have to question these things then maybe you are still too? I could be wrong, you are the one that filed, but if I am then why are you finding it so hard to detach from her? And if you are then maybe this new GF is a "band aid" for that pain?
You still admit caring for your W at times so I just think that is why people are trying to offer their advice in regards to the GF. You don't want to hurt her either in the process of healing yourself.
DonH,
Past that, why can't I have something nice for once? Why can't I get blindsided and fall in love like a bad movie? I can't reason myself out of this one: the compatibility and chemistry here is through the roof. Someone who DOESN'T NEED ME for once in my life. Someone who DOESN'T CARE what I can give them, or do for them. Someone who encourages me to keep being my own person. That I can talk philosophy with, or books, or art, or about childish things. Make out in a movie theater like teenagers for the first time in my life. Feel PASSION that has NEVER ONCE been part of my life in my four decades. See that passion looking RIGHT BACK AT ME when I look into another set of eyes. Why is this so bad? Why walk away from something good, JUST for someone who doesn't DESERVE the chance, or for a marriage that is already dead??
WHY?
You are asking why? I'll tell you why.
Because you are not thinking rationally. You are hurting, you are bleeding and all you can think of is how to stop the hurt. You are using someone to fill the void that got created inside of you. And you are placing an enormous responsibility of making you happy on someone else. THAT IS WRONG!
Until you realize that no one can make you happy, that only you can make you happy, until then you will be stuck. You are in such an unhealthy place right now. The best course of action for you would be to be still and heal. You need a lot of healing. You need to reinvent yourself. YOU ARE A BROKEN MAN! And broken attracts broken, so if your "GF" is attracted to you, that is a sign in itself. I GET YOU! It is soothing and so effin nice to have a warm body next to you, to hold you... BUT IT IS WRONG! You are not being fair to the "GF", nor to your D and certainly and most importantly to yourself.
EastTN: can you focus on just those platonic elements? Talk philosophy keep yourself busy.
I think especially since you say it feels meaningful you should hold of. Second relationships have a tough track record. And if there is anything unresolved you might get into a crisis state.
But yes, I know...the feeling of a warm body hugging you and saying she wants you and she loves you. That is all you want. But maybe you are different but in my case that is all SHE wanted and I had a poor track record expressing that.
East -
I dont mean to pile on and I apologize in advance if you think thats what Im doing. Many will tell you that it's 'too soon' after BD to date, but Im not sure I agree with that. I think that the number of days is just a number, and Im not sure that there is a hard and fast rule but more of a feeling.
The problem is that you still seem incredibly emotionally attached to your W. I asked my GF what her opinions would be if I were to spend 2 hours spewing and crying with a STBX and she said she would be out immediately. I worry that your GF has a bad relationship history or self esteem issues or something that is allowing her to overlook these signs of concern and press on.
In my mind, people are saying two things to you and you are kind of focusing on one of them:
- The first is about the possibility of reconciling your marriage. I believe it is incredibly possible. You say your W will "never change" and thinks she "doesnt need to change". I call BS on that - of course thats what shes saying RIGHT NOW. Nobody thinks that they need to change until they realize that they need to. I thought I was a pretty awesome dude until BD and then, when I shined a light onto myself, I realized how much growth I needed to do. I imagine she is going to go through the same thing - You say it will never happen, but I dont believe in those absolutes. It may be unlikely, but, who knows the future. You spend a lot of time talking about why this wont work. Ultimately, Im not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think you are being a little hasty in casting the potential for R aside, but I also wouldnt expect you to hang around forever waiting, wishing, hoping for a break.
- The second is about the healing that you need to do. Breakups are hard. Especially ones that you didnt want or even necessarily suspect was coming. Its an incredible hit to your self-esteem (not to mention the months of downward trending relationship where you felt insufficient, overworked, underappreciated, etc). I know for me, as soon as anyone even gave a hint of interest, I felt 'over-the-moon' and all of those 'in-love' feelings. I wholeheartedly believe that I got extremely lucky with GF - I probably started dating too soon and mistook 'in love' feelings for 'love'. But almost 2 years later, I feel like the 'in love' has blossomed into actual love, but I feel like I am an exception. I will say that I believe that I was far further along in the detachment process than you are now; I had been at almost 6 months of NC except for parenting matters or legal matters, I had crazy (probably unsustainable) amounts of GAL going, and I had really spent several months focusing on me and my kids without anyone else. Its really this part that I wish you would focus on.
Its not so much for reconciling, its to get you to a place where you are capable of having good, healthy relationships without the burden of your marriage creeping in. I would wish for you to take some time to be alone, to 'date yourself', so that you can really identify your own issues and learn to be independent, and learn your value, and learn how to be happy.
I really don't know how to marshal my thoughts. A lot of people weighed in here and I want to answer them... if y'all care enough to ask, I care enough to answer. But right now I can't. I've been avoiding doing so since last evening when I read all the other responses. When I try, I feel like I'm justifying. I'm trying to figure out if that's true. I don't lie, and that includes to myself. I'll answer when I figure out my answers.
I just got gut punched by a text from W, who isn't supposed to be talking to me. She's taking her parenting class today. Apparently, they had to "sell" their spouses as an exercise. I got the "pleasure" of seeing a photo of her ad.
For sale: Nerdy, booksmart, oblivious, sweetheart, quiet, amazing father, over worker, great cook, and much more. 42 year old IT manager with a yearning for family values but gets super oblivious. He needs to be owned, so make him yours today!
I hate that this made me sad. I hate that this came from someone who threw me away like trash. I hate that I can't tell if this is just a way to keep me attached and hurt me. I hate that I have no trust. I hate that it doesn't change how I feel.
I hate that y'all have called me out on my use of the word "never." I hate that I might be wrong. I hate being the WAS. I hate that I don't WANT to change that. I hate feeling like a failure for letting my marriage die. I hate that I'm the one that filed, regardless of why I had to.
On the plus side... texting with W right now about D... and don't really feel anything. She tried to pick a fight, then blamed me for it, and I just don't want to fight. So yay for some level of detachment, I guess.
I got the "pleasure" of seeing a photo of her ad.
For sale: Nerdy, booksmart, oblivious, sweetheart, quiet, amazing father, over worker, great cook, and much more. 42 year old IT manager with a yearning for family values but gets super oblivious. He needs to be owned, so make him yours today!
If it were me, I dont even think I would reply if I got sent a picture of this.
I really don't know how to marshal my thoughts. A lot of people weighed in here and I want to answer them... if y'all care enough to ask, I care enough to answer. But right now I can't. I've been avoiding doing so since last evening when I read all the other responses. When I try, I feel like I'm justifying. I'm trying to figure out if that's true. I don't lie, and that includes to myself. I'll answer when I figure out my answers.
I just got gut punched by a text from W, who isn't supposed to be talking to me. She's taking her parenting class today. Apparently, they had to "sell" their spouses as an exercise. I got the "pleasure" of seeing a photo of her ad.
For sale: Nerdy, booksmart, oblivious, sweetheart, quiet, amazing father, over worker, great cook, and much more. 42 year old IT manager with a yearning for family values but gets super oblivious. He needs to be owned, so make him yours today!
I hate that this made me sad. I hate that this came from someone who threw me away like trash. I hate that I can't tell if this is just a way to keep me attached and hurt me. I hate that I have no trust. I hate that it doesn't change how I feel.
I hate that y'all have called me out on my use of the word "never." I hate that I might be wrong. I hate being the WAS. I hate that I don't WANT to change that. I hate feeling like a failure for letting my marriage die. I hate that I'm the one that filed, regardless of why I had to.
On the plus side... texting with W right now about D... and don't really feel anything. She tried to pick a fight, then blamed me for it, and I just don't want to fight. So yay for some level of detachment, I guess.
There are like 20 mentions of the word hate in your exposee. I get you. Hate is good, anger is good, but you have to let it out, do not bottle it. Go hiking in the woods, yell at a birch, take a baseball bat to a trash can. Get it out.
And these feelings are exactly why you need you time. To learn to love yourself first. You have to come first! YOU! Not some surrogate. When you enmesh yourself with someone else, you lose you. Again lost...
Words are very powerful. The things you tell yourself are very powerful. You convince yourself of things. You've convinced yourself that there is no reason to stay with W. Now you've convinced yourself that you had to file for D. You HAD to file? No, you DECICED to file! Those are two very different things. Why have you told yourself you HAD to file? That almost absolves you for the DECISION you made. There for sure were reasons but you did not HAVE to do anything. You CHOSE to.
My apologies for the imprecise use of language. Yes, I chose to. I had reasons, and they were good ones, but I DECIDED to do so. I do not absolve myself of responsibility for my choices.
Hi East,
I haven't been keeping up with what is going on with you but I can tell that you're hurting and confused.
That "ad" from your W. Sounds like an exercise to prevent alienation of the other parent? Many divorcing parents can't separate the relationship from the parenting, and end up denigrating the other parent to the child. Sometimes they don't even see that they're doing it, and its, of course, awful for the kiddos to have to endure that.
So your W was selling you. I find her words curious. Some are very standard, and some are more emotional, and some feel a little snarky.
I'm sorry if that hurt to see, but take away the power of it. What does it represent to you? Why does it hurt? It's a somewhat sensible exercise and your W probably thought she was clever and shared it with you.
And, frankly, that's not a text about the kids. That's HER reaching out to YOU, and I can't tell if it's to raise your hackles or just to poke you and say "remember me?" Who knows? But this is not a co-parenting text even though she was in a co-parenting class. I can't say why she sent it, but you do need to look at that and stop trying to lump this in as being about the kids. It was about her and her emotions and she sent it to you. There is attachment there. Positive or negative, I don't know.
As for the new lady, it does sound like a rebound. The intensity that you're feeling is a red flag, but unfortunately it is usually something that causes people to dive right in, thinking that the intensity is meaningful about the quality of the person or the relationship. And it's usually that you've located someone who is a good fit for recreating childhood trauma. That's where that "intensity" and feeling of fulfillment come from. It's not her. Feeling intensity when you are emotionally vulnerable usually means that continuing with the person will produce a rollercoaster high, and then a rollercoaster low when the high wears off. Which it will.
I did a rebound during my last breakup. I knew I was still heartbroken, so I didn't try to get too serious. I found a cute, interesting guy with very soulful eyes and I felt giddy that I was attracted to someone again. I felt "back in the game". And my ex had hurt me so badly I didn't want him to be the last one I'd slept with. I wanted to "reset" things. And I did. Even though the relationship wasn't a big deal, I got very clingy. Embarrassingly so. Because it was never about this individual guy, it was about how he made me feel. And when it ended, I cried tears for my ex. It brought up all the sorrow ten-fold.
My ex, on the other hand, (we did reunited), did what you are doing. He found someone with whom he felt "intensity" and he dove in. He was trying to prove something to himself - that he'd done the right thing by leaving me and that he could easily replace me. He committed to her way too soon, and they were off taking weekend trips as if they had a future together. He wanted a "new me" but his picker was way off. He ended up choosing the same type of dysfunctional woman he always chooses (aside from me, whom he met the one time in his life when he was in IC). He likes narcissist women to whom he can't get too close. He recreates the dynamic with his mother with them, hoping he'll finally win the selfish and self-absorbed person over, and correct his childhood hurts.
(And, I know what you're thinking - he likes these narcs for their looks, right? Man, I've seen some of them, and I've seen his ex-wife, and it appears he is actually a connoisseur of, er, largely unattractive narcissists. Jeez Louise was that confusing for my ego, as someone sane and physically attractive. It kind of disgusted me and lowered his value in my eyes.)
Anywho, his rebound ended in disaster, and it only made him miss me more. The "intensity" that seems so promising always wears off in the light of day, and all the positives you were projecting as part of feeling that intensity go away (they were never there in the first place) and all the person's negatives that you couldn't see become glaringly apparent.
You are hurting and uncertain and you are looking for quick fixes. What you're feeling for this new lady is likely not about her, the person, and more about what she represents to you. That's why people are saying it's unfair to her. You're not "seeing" her.
But you're going to do what you're going to do, and maybe pursuing this is what you'll do. If you do, don't get carried away by the passion and intensity, because I 100% guarantee those things aren't what you think that they are. And any idea that you can create closeness to her without anyone developing emotional ties is magical thinking. People get attached and someone gets hurt.
Broken attracts broken. I have to say that I don't find anyone who is still wounded from their last breakup very attractive. This was after unwittingly being that rebound for someone. I recognize the signs and I run screaming from any guy who wants all the good stuff of a relationship with none of the commitment, because ______. It's magical thinking and it won't happen.
I'm also lonely and miss the hugs and hand holding and loving support. I miss a body in bed next to me. Heck, I even miss H's bed hogging and constantly trying to intertwine his legs with mine (I haaaaated that). I know I could go out and find a guy for my bed, but I know that wouldn't be fair to him and it certainly wouldn't be fair to me. I'm the walking wounded, and it would just be a quick fix that would actually create more hurt feelings for me.
The most personal growth occurs when we can stand on our own two feet and say "I'm enough as I am. I make myself happy. I don't need anyone else." Once you can really and truly believe those things, you are, quite ironically, ready to meet someone healthy. At that point, healthy women will be attracted to you, if that's what you want. (And it also usually attracts ex's back, who may or may not have experienced growth themselves.)
Do what you're going to do. It's your life.
If you continue with her, just be very clear with her that you're not ready for a relationship and you may never be ready for a relationship with her (DO NOT casually leave off that last part to soften it, as it would be intentionally misleading her.) You are essentially looking for a human stop gap while you are hurting, and she needs to know that. She can choose to run screaming or stay, and know if she chooses the latter, she likely has some major self-esteem issues or attachment avoidance issues of her own. A healthy woman doesn't sign up for the "heal each other but no one will get hurt" type of arrangement because it doesn't tend to actually work out that way.
^^^^^^^^^Cadence, that post was an awesome post!
I had my rebound too. I met him when my barely a year old daughter was away for a weekend with my ex and his AP, 6 months into the separation. I was in so much pain, out with friends, and this incredibly hot guy is talking to .....ME! A friend of a friend I was with (whom I can't stand was hitting on him, but he wanted ME!). Long story short, we dated for 2 months. The feelings I got with him were so amazing (never thought it was love) but anything compared to the pain I was felt heavenly. When he broke up with me to date someone else, I so didn't want it to happen. Because of the feelings I had when I was with him. Not because of him. because I could escape the pain, I felt beautiful, sleeping next to another (hot, might I add) body. I didn't want that to go away.
When we ended, just like Cadence, it was my ex I cried for, not him.
You are going to do what you are going to do. But please, pull back the love reins here. If you are going to enjoy it, enjoy it for what it really is in this moment.... a rebound. Maybe in the future it won't be, who knows. But this R is painting the way you view everything else, and right now you need to see clearly to sort out your feelings for yourself.
My rebound became my wife and I thought it was a rebound...but it turned into something special. But if you read my thread you will see that there were still design flaws.
I understand pain. I understand wanting it to end. It is sooooo easy if someone comes along who does make you feel like perfection. But be very careful to make the right choice. I love my W. I am also ready to just stop the pain. But if I file for D and / or she moves out I think my pain will only be stronger. And even if there is someone to ease the pain... is that fair to that person? Is that going to make any type of future with my W easier?
The word hate is strong. And maybe it's therapeutic but without forgiveness there is no future. Even if you decide to pursue a different relationship hate shouldn't be in your heart.
That text I see as a bit snarky but also as an expression of pain. "oblivious" (and maybe it resonates with me because I was oblivious) may just be a sign that this is something you need to show her a different side of.
Tobias,
forgiveness is a looooong way of. Long way. And in any case forgiveness is not meant for your wife but for yourself. And it does not come in any one moment, but is slowly built. And when you can honestly say you forgive her, a huuuuuuuuuge weight will be lifted from you.
And pain or no pain, East has to let his W deal with the pain herself. He cannot nor should he even try carrying her burden. He has 2 much on his plate ATM. Also rebound relationships are no good. You just waste a heck of a lot of time and you end up in the same spot in a couple of months.
Still thinking about what everyone is saying. Especially cadence and Ginger. Rebound = "using" and "using" is one of the biggest crimes in my personal morality. I have been watching for signs that this is what I am doing. That is neither who I am, nor who I want to be.
I don't feel hate for W. At all. Which is surprising. I am angry, but even that comes and goes. I'm not internalizing it. Internalizing my feelings is part of why I am where I am. I don't like making the same mistakes in life--I like making new ones (joke). My hate is directed at those specific things I listed. I have hated myself a couple of times over the last few months, but I think that's bleed over from my specific situation, rather than an enduring feeling directed at myself. I DO hate the man I was before BD. When I'm dealing with uncomfortable feelings these days, I try to unpack the box and deal with it rather than stuffing it somewhere for safe keeping.
"Oblivious" is absolutely correct about me. I actually have an almost speech I give at the start of a relationship. "I will never intentionally hurt you, but I CAN BE OBLIVIOUS. It's not you, and it's not on purpose, I just get stuck in my head sometimes. If that happens, just tell me about it and I'll fix it."
I said I don't see flaws in GF. That's not entirely true. I DO see some. They're just MY SAME FLAWS. They're not scary, because I understand them, and I deal with them everyday. Does anyone care to guess what GF told ME on our second date (before I'd said the above?) Almost word for word, "I will never intentionally hurt you, but I can be oblivious. I get stuck in my head sometimes, and I need to be woken up when that happens."
I hear my own words come out of this woman's mouth SO OFTEN it's insane. I have examined whether this is just confirmation bias, and cannot reach that conclusion with my available data. My mind ruthlessly analyzes everything in my life. If I don't want to do it while I'm awake (usually something I don't want to be true, so I kill myself fighting my analytical side, which usually doesn't stop it anyway) my subconscious will do it for me while I sleep and present me with conclusions when I wake up. My conclusions started as "this cannot possibly be real" and have progressed to "what the actual f***?"
I am still confused and hurt. I don't believe I'm "fixed." But I also don't believe that anyone else can fix me. I don't believe that other people can make me happy (that's actually written on my bathroom mirror in dry erase marker, and has been for months). I accept that the only one responsible for my happiness is me, that to expect anyone else to be responsible for that isn't fair to me, or to them, and is almost certain to be ruinous.
I don't believe I'm currently suffering from cognitive dissonance. There's a small chance, but I think I would have noticed it, especially since I'm looking for it.
Still no answers. Still a lot of questions. Still thinking.
"I will never intentionally hurt you, but I CAN BE OBLIVIOUS. It's not you, and it's not on purpose, I just get stuck in my head sometimes. If that happens, just tell me about it and I'll fix it."
Almost word for word, "I will never intentionally hurt you, but I can be oblivious. I get stuck in my head sometimes, and I need to be woken up when that happens."
Devil's advocate here, but if you recognize that you are stuck in your head to the detriment of your partner, why not work on changing that behavior? Why "warn"?
Personally I'm not a fan of the whole "here are my flaws" speech in the beginning of relationships. Why? Because there's an "I told you so" element to it. So, later, when it's happening, one can say "but I told you I do this." Also, because it has a touch of making the other person responsible.
On the surface, it seems like personal growth, but really it's a way to distance yourself from responsibility. And if you have a history of that, and this woman is now doing it, yikes.
If there is a behavior about yourself that you don't like, fix it. All on your own. You don't need another person. Work on recognizing it when you're doing it (being in your head isn't an excuse, because you're capable of stopping that behavior) and stopping it yourself. Then there's no need for speeches or warnings!
I hear my own words come out of this woman's mouth SO OFTEN it's insane. I have examined whether this is just confirmation bias, and cannot reach that conclusion with my available data.
Remember what I said about rebounding and feeling like the new person is familiar? Most take it as a reason to rush in, because it's "right."
Usually it means you've found a match for your childhood issues. Your unhealed inner child recognizes this particular brand of dysfunction and it's exciting!
When someone is in an emotionally unhealthy state (like after heartbreak), this feeling of wonder and feeling of being found by another person is a giant red flag. Giant. Huge. ...'Yuuuuge.
Be careful, East. This woman is not a science project. She doesn't contain insight into your own issues because she says the same things as you. She's a mirror. She's familiar. And she's a fallible human being, like us all.
East, I sense a general emotional unavailability with you, and I think your lady friend intrigues you right now because she's also emotionally unavailable and so she feels safe to you.
Maybe this will work out and you'll find lasting stable love, but I think the chances are small. You're not in a healthy state, and anyone who is attracted to that is very likely to have issues of their own, like not being able to form stable connections that last.
DBing is all about getting healthy - emotionally, physically, and spiritually by challenging ourselves. The healthier we can be, the more strength we have to piece things back together if our ex is re-attracted to us, or we attract new healthier partners. There's no quick fix.
You'll do what you're going to do, but work on owning the behaviors you want to change and work on getting healthy. See this lady as an addition to your life, and, ironically, don't believe it's going to last or you'll cause it to flame out sooner. What you've found has a 1% chance of lasting, so enjoy it while it's here. She can't fix you. Only you can do that.
And know if it does end, you will suffer a large setback in healing from your M. Having gone through that, it's so hard. It's a huge step backward into the pain and the muck.
I still don't really want to post in my thread. I'm still thinking.
Thanks for the insight, Cadence. I'd like to say that you've completely missed the target, but a lot of that is uncomfortably close. I don't get stuck in my head to the detriment of my partner (well, that too) but really to my OWN detriment. I forget about me, which causes a domino effect. I'm very, VERY bad about caring about myself when I have a reason not to.
I'm driving myself crazy at the thought of rebounding. I am analyzing the hell out of myself. Second guessing everything I do. Doing a lot of reading on the subject. A few indicators are there, but lots of "healthy relationship" indicators are there, too. I'm wondering if I'm confusing myself.
W reached out to me this weekend to discuss finally getting her stuff, and what she could have. She wanted my washer/dryer (pre-M) and was upset when I said no. So I kinda feel a little angry and used. Told her so, which seems silly.
When I talked to D last night (MIL asked to keep her Sunday night, and that stretched an extra day) I ended up talking to W for a couple of minutes, and there wasn't any drama. I got the sense she wanted me to tell her to just come home so we could figure things out. She was really pressing me to "tell her what I was thinking." I feel like I'm supposed to try to fix that, no matter how much I don't really want to, no matter that nothing on her end has actually changed since BD, no matter that a big part of me feels like it's some kind of scam or game... I feel like it's my job as a spouse to TRY. I hate this feeling.
W just stopped by work with D (she got her from summer program today because her field trip tomorrow was cancelled) because I didn't get to see her much this week. It's the most thoughtful thing she's done all year.
I've been a wreck this week. I'm completely conflicted. What you guys have been saying has knocked me out of where I was. Still sure I love GF. Only now I'm not sure that it makes sense to. Or to keep doing what I'm doing.
I thought what was wrong with me was that I was anxious about father's day on Sunday. And that I hadn't really gotten to spend time with D this week. And that I had to work (with D there) for an emergency situation on Tuesday night and was stressed about that. Now I just plain don't know what I'm doing, anymore.
I asked W if she minded if I got D early Sunday morning for father's day. Her response was, "If you want, but I've already made plans for you. Don't be doing anything on Saturday." I was afraid that I wouldn't even get a gift from D, that W was just going to let father's day pass unmarked. And instead my WAW/WW/WTF has apparently put something special together for me.
I feel awful.
I don't believe this makes things different, really. W still hasn't changed anything. Still spends lots of time with OM on Xbox (and I assume on phone, etc). Still doesn't work. She was supposed to go to a psych appointment today and when I asked about it, said she didn't go (no reason, just didn't go). There's nothing there to rebuild a relationship on. Part of me is still waiting for the other shoe to drop.
But I feel LOVED for the first time this year.
Oh... and W wants to BE there during the father's day activity. Sent me a text after and said "If you don't want me there, that's fine, I'll tell you where to go and you two can have fun." I can't imagine responding with anything other than, "if you want to spend that day with me, then I'm happy to spend it with you" so I did.
East, you did well. Now just don't get your expectations up in the clouds. Keep your feet on the floor. But do enjoy father's day.
Therapist on Friday asked "what can you possibly hope to get out of this day with W? Why are you allowing it?" My mother asked me pretty much the same question. My answer was, "have you ever said 'I would give ANYTHING for just one more day?' Well I'd give anything for just one more day with my family. No matter how much this hurts, no matter how much this sets me back, no matter what it costs me, I want this."
I picked W and D up at her place. Before I left to pick them up, I thought long and hard... and put one of my rings (the one I wore on my right hand, that W gave me a couple of months after we started dating) back on for the day. I got my family day... We went out and painted pottery with D, they took me to dinner, and we saw a movie (Guardians 2). It was a perfect day.
At the movie theater, W held my hand... and did a double take when she felt the ring. She wanted to know why, and I said I'd tell her later, did on the way to drop her off while D was asleep in the back seat.
W expressed a lot of regret over everything. Apologized for everything again. Said she doesn't know if she's really done. On the other hand, OM is still in the picture. W still completely wrapped up in him (though she's back to saying that they're "just friends, regardless of what happened") so that seems to be academic.
On the other hand, I don't know if I'm done, anymore, either. I've been a wreck this week, and it had nothing to do with any contact with W, or any fantasy day with my family. I'm mentally and emotionally exhausted. I'm conflicted. I don't know what I want anymore, if I ever did. I'm wondering if I still just want W back and I can't pretend otherwise anymore. It would help if i knew what I was thinking.
Therapist said that based on everything I'm saying, it does sound like maybe I shouldn't be dating anyone right now (GF or W for that matter). She also said that from everything I've said, GF is a great match for me, and W isn't (and probably never was) and asked me if I was willing to lose the possibilities I have with GF. I don't have an answer for that.
GF is fairly unhappy right now. Points out that I basically went on a date with another woman, and it's "slightly" worse because I happen to still love that other woman. I don't really have an answer to that, either.
So I guess I have some choices to make.
A. Learn how to truly accept M is over and move forward with GF.
B. End relationship with GF and accept that I really just want W back.
C. Accept M is over. End relationship with GF. Let the chips fall where they may.
D. Juggle GF and W (joking, but it's really not funny. Not actually an option, just listing it for completeness).
E. ???
"C" is probably the "correct" choice, here. It's also the least palatable (other than option D). That tends to reinforce that it's the correct choice. Don't know how to do this. Love to find a workable option E.
Wow, BD 5 months ago and your already wayward on your girlfriend. You did go on a date, you held hands in the movie, and you were emotionally intimate with your W.
Look, I get it, but you need time to level out. You don't know what you want cause your still full of emotions, and emotions aren't consistent. Here's my $.02 for what it's worth:
1. Apologize to your girlfriend, tell her it's not fair to her, but you can't be in a healthy R right now.
2. Tell your W that you will not be in a open M, if she ever has any interest in trying to work things out, you wouldn't even consider the idea unless you knew that she had gone NC.
3. Give her space, show her what NC means (other than about D)
4. Work the hell out of GAL until you find a passion
5. Be the best damn dad ever.
i do wish you the best, I think you still have a chance in reconciling, but right now your on route to a train wreck and you need to start enjoying your life on your own and as a father.
W ended up trying to spend time with me again today. I said I couldn't do that because this wasn't fair to GF. W dropped another bomb on me. Father's day was pretty bad. I was more or less a zombie. Trying to go full NC with W. We'll see how I do with that. I have a horrible track record with it.
Ended things with GF. Told her everything about yesterday. And today. She tried to be supportive. She told me that of course I wanted my family, and she wouldn't expect a good man to want anything else. That if I could have W back, then of course I should do that. When I told her that I needed to learn how to be healthy again, she said she knew she couldn't help with that, but she could "hold the ladder." I don't know how I managed to say goodbye, but I did. Probably because I manged to convince myself it was the "right" thing to do. And god, do I feel awful about it.
Feeling like a bad man for hurting GF. And I have. Badly. To answer a question someone asked, GF is 28. I got called immature by DonH. The funny thing is that GF was more mature than I was by a longshot. It's how I got passed the age thing. Very relationship inexperienced, though. I'm the first man to meet her parents, among other things. I managed to not do something irrevocable, despite having the opportunity on more than one occasion. At least I can still look in the mirror about that.
Hurting badly. About both W and GF. In distinct and separate ways. My current conclusion is "not a rebound." My other conclusion is "but it was an affair."
Depressed.
W ended up trying to spend time with me again today. I said I couldn't do that because this wasn't fair to GF. W dropped another bomb on me.
I know Ive been quiet, but Im following along. What new bomb was dropped?
From everything youve posted here, I think this was the best for you. Who knows....in a few months, things might be different. But I think you will have a much better long term result if you can "date yourself" for a while.
So, now, what are you going to do about W? In my opinion, your Father's Day choices undermined your own boundaries. So, I think maybe try to get a handle on them here. What are your goals for the next WEEK?
Thanks for caring, Kaizen.
Walking away from GF is one of the harder things I've done in my life. I didn't want to. Still don't want to. The only reason I can is because I think it's "right" to.
Yes, my father's day choices seriously undermined my boundaries. Yes, I'm paying for that. In so many ways. I'd do it again, though. People say, "I'd give anything for just one more day." I got it. It was pretend. It was only a few hours. It hurt like hell, and still does. But I got to have my family again if only for a little while. It really was a perfect day.
Wasn't really a bomb, but felt like one. Basically everything I've accused her of, that was vehemently denied, is true. Also, despite the weeks of being told how much I was wanted (even once, "I'd send him away in a heartbeat if you wanted me") as soon as I wavered at all, made myself vulnerable, it was reiterated that she was in love with OM, blah blah blah. I was stupid and asked a question along the lines of "if you two are so crazy for each other, why haven't you seen each other in the last three months?" Got told he was supposed to come last week for his birthday (apparently his birthday was on Friday).
So I felt like my perfect day was some kind of consolation prize for her. She couldn't spend it with OM, so she spent it with me instead, eating cake. That's probably not true. It's something my head is making up to punish me. But it feels like it.
What am I going to do about W? "Hating her forever" isn't an option for me, so I'm trying to take Coconut's advice and just go full NC. I don't know if I can manage. She seems to know exactly what buttons to push.
What are my goals for the next week? To make it through the week. Somehow. I'm hurting for both W and GF.
Goal 1 is to be there for my little girl, not slack on being dad just because I've got nothing in the tank.
Goal 2 is not to contact W at all. Not respond at all.
Goal 3 is to not tell GF how much I love her, want her, miss her, and want to be with her, so forget everything I said and be mine again.
Goal 4 is to do at least one GAL activity this weekend. I'm thinking soccer, the pain will be helpful.
I don't know that I have it in me to do more than that.
The parallels to my first divorce are ridiculous. W is doing EVERYTHING 1st W did, in the same way, saying the same things in the same way, screwing with my head in the same way, trying to destroy things that I'm building in the same way. I feel like some kind of lab animal. I'm being tormented, and I don't even have the ability to understand why it's happening.
You had your "perfect" day, you know it probably wasn't the best thing to do in your current sitch, but you got it. Don't discount it now, enjoy it for what it meant to you. I too kinda wish I had that one more day to look back on, but I wouldn't recommend you repeat it.
I understand that you're grieving about your lost R with gf, but I really believe you will be better for it in the future. Take your time to grieve, work through the emotions.
The parallels to my first divorce are ridiculous. W is doing EVERYTHING 1st W did, in the same way, saying the same things in the same way, screwing with my head in the same way, trying to destroy things that I'm building in the same way. I feel like some kind of lab animal. I'm being tormented, and I don't even have the ability to understand why it's happening.
This is happening because you are allowing it. You put yourself in a position where they easily cross your boundaries. She did not destroy what you building with GF. You put yourself right in that position. I get why you did it, but this is the outcome.
So, don't sit in victim mode for too long.
I am sure you know this already.... but you can't go completely NC with a child. Please be responsive and communicative regarding your child. Otherwise, no contact is best.
I also apologize in advance for poor timing and maybe projecting some of my sitch on you, but I had an R recently end because of age difference. He is 27 and I just turned 37. In the end, he could not sacrifice children of his own. I have maybe one more year left to childbear and he is not ready in a year, It was a 3 month R and we had no real issues other than this. While he was great with my D9, in the end he really didn't want to be a stepdad. He wants to build form ground up.
Does she wants kids? Are you ready to have more kids years from now?
You know when I knew I loved him? When I realized I wanted all of this for him too. I know I cannot give it. And if he came back tomorrow saying he made a mistake, I wouldn't take him back. Not because I don't want to be with him, but because I know what he truly wants in his heart. You say you love GF and letting her go is an act of love, as painful as it is.
Yes, my father's day choices seriously undermined my boundaries. Yes, I'm paying for that. In so many ways. I'd do it again, though. People say, "I'd give anything for just one more day."
To me, this feels so unhealthy in so many ways. She/you/D arent DYING. She is in another relationship and your "one more day" is just playing at house. To me, this one more day only makes it harder to reach your final goals.
But...whats done is done. And so be it.
So I felt like my perfect day was some kind of consolation prize for her. She couldn't spend it with OM, so she spent it with me instead, eating cake. That's probably not true.
Thi is completely true. Regardless of OM, this was incredible cake for her. Instead of spending a family holiday alone, she got to play at family, get a nice ego boost from you, and then go home and do whatever with OM.
What am I going to do about W? "Hating her forever" isn't an option for me, so I'm trying to take Coconut's advice and just go full NC. I don't know if I can manage. She seems to know exactly what buttons to push.
I dont believe this is about her. It's about you. She not manipulating you...you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. You say you are in love with someone else, yet you jumped at this opportunity to be with W and D, and compounded it by being physically and emotionally intimate. Shes keeping you attached; what can you do to detach? It isnt about love or hate; it's about your emotional independence!
1)To be there for my little girl, not slack on being dad just because I've got nothing in the tank. -
specifically,
how? What are you going to do to 'be there'?2)Not to contact W at all. Not respond at all. -
If theres something about D, I think it's OK to respond. How about to not initiate any contact that isnt necessary?"3)To not tell GF how much I love her, want her, miss her, and want to be with her, so forget everything I said and be mine again. -
Good. I think NC with GF right now is best for you.4) is to do at least one GAL activity this weekend. I'm thinking soccer, the pain will be helpful. -
Also good!The parallels to my first divorce are ridiculous. W is doing EVERYTHING 1st W did, in the same way, saying the same things in the same way, screwing with my head in the same way, trying to destroy things that I'm building in the same way. I feel like some kind of lab animal. I'm being tormented, and I don't even have the ability to understand why it's happening.
Instead of putting this on them, what if you look inward. What patterns are you exhibiting that are the same between the two divorces? How are you playing into this cycle to exhibit the same responses? What are you looking for in women that leads to the same results?
Therapist on Friday asked "what can you possibly hope to get out of this day with W? Why are you allowing it?" My mother asked me pretty much the same question. My answer was, "have you ever said 'I would give ANYTHING for just one more day?' Well I'd give anything for just one more day with my family. No matter how much this hurts, no matter how much this sets me back, no matter what it costs me, I want this."
Can I ask why you started into a new R with GF to start with? It sounds like you jumped into a rebound to lessen the hurt of losing W. But in the process you are just hurting your GF and probably yourself too.
I got my family day... We went out and painted pottery with D, they took me to dinner, and we saw a movie (Guardians 2). It was a perfect day.
At the movie theater, W held my hand...
Did she initiate that? Pretty unusual move for a WAS, that's a nice baby step. But again, where is GF in this picture? Seems you're trying to lead a double-life.
W expressed a lot of regret over everything. Apologized for everything again. Said she doesn't know if she's really done.
How did you respond? Hopefully you listened and validated, but didn't give her open-ended promises about how you'll wait for her.
On the other hand, OM is still in the picture. W still completely wrapped up in him (though she's back to saying that they're "just friends, regardless of what happened") so that seems to be academic.
And if he is then you're letting W cake-eat. She gets to have her fling and return for dates with you when she needs her "family time". I understand your desire for "just one more day" but in the end did that extra day make you feel any better about things? Or just more confused and in turmoil?
I've been a wreck this week, and it had nothing to do with any contact with W, or any fantasy day with my family. I'm mentally and emotionally exhausted. I'm conflicted. I don't know what I want anymore, if I ever did. I'm wondering if I still just want W back and I can't pretend otherwise anymore. It would help if i knew what I was thinking.
I totally get that, we all went through it! Just give yourself the gift of time. You need it as much as your W. Just try and remember you don't have to sort everything out TODAY. Try and get out and GAL to get your mind off the M.
She also said that from everything I've said, GF is a great match for me, and W isn't (and probably never was) and asked me if I was willing to lose the possibilities I have with GF. I don't have an answer for that.
I'm not sure this C is the best choice for a DB'er. Doesn't sound like it. It is REAL EASY to find people to tell you to quit and move on. But is that what YOU want? Or do you want to stand? If you want to stand then surround yourself with advisors that support that.
GF is fairly unhappy right now. Points out that I basically went on a date with another woman, and it's "slightly" worse because I happen to still love that other woman. I don't really have an answer to that, either.
Do you think she is wrong?
My apologies, I thought I was responding to the latest post but just noticed there's a whole other page that I missed!
This is happening because you are allowing it. You put yourself in a position where they easily cross your boundaries. She did not destroy what you building with GF. You put yourself right in that position. I get why you did it, but this is the outcome.
Yeah, I can't really blame anyone else for my weak (GROSS understatement) boundaries. They can't do anything to me that I don't let them do. I just keep letting them. I CAN blame them for wanting to break me, though.
Does she wants kids? Are you ready to have more kids years from now?
She'd have them with the right person. So would I. I have no fear of children. I always wanted more than one. I'll be 43 in a week and a half, and that's intimidating, but I still want that. I have every belief that both of us would have checked the "right person" box for each other.
You had your "perfect" day, you know it probably wasn't the best thing to do in your current sitch, but you got it. Don't discount it now, enjoy it for what it meant to you. I too kinda wish I had that one more day to look back on, but I wouldn't recommend you repeat it.
I don't plan to repeat it. I feel bad that maybe it was something other than what it looked like, but I still got it, and nothing can take away that I got to.
Can I ask why you started into a new R with GF to start with? It sounds like you jumped into a rebound to lessen the hurt of losing W. But in the process you are just hurting your GF and probably yourself too.
I thought it was really over. I thought *I* was done. I thought W was going to live her life and I was going to live mine. I THOUGHT I was ready to at least go on a date, which I expected to lead nowhere. I didn't expect to find what I found, and I didn't expect W to change course.
Did she initiate that? Pretty unusual move for a WAS, that's a nice baby step. But again, where is GF in this picture? Seems you're trying to lead a double-life.
She did. Pretty sure she tried to kiss me at one point, too, but I avoided it. The fact that I could do what I did is one of the main reasons I broke up with GF. Despite what she may think right now, that's not fair in any universe.
How did you respond? Hopefully you listened and validated, but didn't give her open-ended promises about how you'll wait for her.
Can't tell you, I don't remember exactly.
And if he is then you're letting W cake-eat. She gets to have her fling and return for dates with you when she needs her "family time". I understand your desire for "just one more day" but in the end did that extra day make you feel any better about things? Or just more confused and in turmoil?
Didn't make me feel better, made things "worse." Even if I was being used, I wouldn't change that day.
I'm not sure this C is the best choice for a DB'er. Doesn't sound like it. It is REAL EASY to find people to tell you to quit and move on. But is that what YOU want? Or do you want to stand? If you want to stand then surround yourself with advisors that support that.
When I started seeing C, I wasn't trying to save things anymore... I was trying to figure out how to be healthy again. I know (especially now) that I'm not. Fixing that trumps any relationship concerns I might otherwise have.
Do you think she is wrong?
She was 100% right. Another reason I had to leave.
To me, this feels so unhealthy in so many ways. She/you/D arent DYING. She is in another relationship and your "one more day" is just playing at house. To me, this one more day only makes it harder to reach your final goals.
But...whats done is done. And so be it.
The three of us aren't, I agree... but "the three of us" as a unit surely is... or has. I haven't been able to look at it in any other way. It's horrifying and makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it.
I dont believe this is about her. It's about you. She not manipulating you...you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. You say you are in love with someone else, yet you jumped at this opportunity to be with W and D, and compounded it by being physically and emotionally intimate. Shes keeping you attached; what can you do to detach? It isnt about love or hate; it's about your emotional independence!
More reasons I had to leave GF. She actually understood, believe it or not, why I did what I did with W. She didn't understand what I meant when I said I couldn't learn to be a whole person again while I was half of a whole made up of she and I. She also didn't understand that my allowing (I'd say "can't stop" but that's a cop out) W to manipulate me was another reason I had to go... oddly enough, her response to that was the same as yours: "Ok... how can we get you out of that place?"
1)What are you going to do to 'be there'?
I'm pretty sure all I can manage right now is to not slack on her schedule. Make sure I cook her dinner instead of letting a restaurant cook it, make sure she gets her outside time with her friends instead of parking her in front of Disney, make sure she gets her reading done. NOT feeling energetic, but I think I can manage that.
If theres something about D, I think it's OK to respond. How about to not initiate any contact that isnt necessary?"
Yes, that's what I intended.
I think NC with GF right now is best for you.
If she talks to me, I'll talk back. I can't ghost her. I did harm, I'll pay penance if required.
Instead of putting this on them, what if you look inward. What patterns are you exhibiting that are the same between the two divorces? How are you playing into this cycle to exhibit the same responses? What are you looking for in women that leads to the same results?
No doubt this is all on me. I ALLOWED this. By not detaching, by still caring, by... still holding on to something, and I don't know what or why. But god, I do feel like that lab rat, being poked and prodded for perceived amusement without comprehending what it did to deserve it.
[/quote]
No doubt this is all on me. I ALLOWED this. By not detaching, by still caring, by... still holding on to something, and I don't know what or why. But god, I do feel like that lab rat, being poked and prodded for perceived amusement without comprehending what it did to deserve it.[/quote]
OK, you may feel like a lab rat and your ex w and w have hurting you in their mind.
Believe it or not, they don't. it's a side effect of their own selfishness. They are doing what they want to get what they want, absolutely. But not to get off on your misery. It just feels that way.
No one is out to make you miserable on purpose. so take back your power when you are ready.
I thought it was really over. I thought *I* was done. I thought W was going to live her life and I was going to live mine. I THOUGHT I was ready to at least go on a date, which I expected to lead nowhere. I didn't expect to find what I found, and I didn't expect W to change course.
I hear you, I did much the same thing. For what it's worth, I GREATLY regret having done that. It was about a year after BD. I started seeing a new lady, we got "serious" fairly quickly. My W suddenly wanted to go to Retrouvaille, this after a year of never once talking about reconciling. We went and we made great progress on our communications. But because I was seeing the OW it derailed my efforts to try and reconnect with W. At some point I told her that it seemed like her heart wasn't in it and did she want to quit going to the followup sessions, and she said yes. But I think it was really me who's heart wasn't in it, because of OW and my fantasy of a new, better life with her. MY fling with OW fizzled a few months later. In retrospect it was WAY too soon to get in another R, but like you I had convinced myself it was over and I was ready. But I wasn't. I should have waited another year which would have been about 2 years post BD. That sounds like a really long time, but when you're married that long it really does take you a good long while to well and truly drop the rope.
Didn't make me feel better, made things "worse." Even if I was being used, I wouldn't change that day.
I get it, I really do. I mean that was me too, I treasured any time I could spend as a "family" with W post BD. But as we're fond of saying around here, she needs to learn to miss you. As long as you're there for her whenever she decides she wants a little of the "old life" then she's not going to miss you.
When I started seeing C, I wasn't trying to save things anymore... I was trying to figure out how to be healthy again.
Ah, OK that makes sense then. But given where you are now, maybe it's time to change C's?
She was 100% right. Another reason I had to leave.
Even though you're expressing confusion, you really seem to have a very good grasp on things. You understand DB principals really well and you recognize when you're on and off track. Breaking up with your GF was a VERY tough decision, but you did the right thing and you should be proud of yourself for that. I think now that you realize you want to stand for your M that you're going to feel a lot better and less confused going forward. Hang in there, you're doing great!
Breaking up with your GF was a VERY tough decision, but you did the right thing and you should be proud of yourself for that. I think now that you realize you want to stand for your M that you're going to feel a lot better and less confused going forward. Hang in there, you're doing great!
I'm not convinced of that!
Stand for my marriage? I may still love W, and I might even still want her, and I would do literally anything for my family, but my marriage? My marriage is a sham! It's been pissed all over. Maybe there's a someday where there's another relationship with W, but it's not this one!
I'm "proud" of myself about GF in the sense that I was able to do what I thought was the right thing, rather than the thing that I wanted. I'm not proud of anything else. I am completely without doubt that I love her, too. Completely without doubt that I have WRONGED someone special, who never deserved being hurt. There's nothing to take pride in, there.
Stand for my marriage? I may still love W, and I might even still want her, and I would do literally anything for my family, but my marriage? My marriage is a sham! It's been pissed all over. Maybe there's a someday where there's another relationship with W, but it's not this one!
Yes of course, maybe I should have said stand for your W rather than your M, because you are quite right, the goal isn't to go "back to normal". It's to create a new R that is superior to the old one.
Completely without doubt that I have WRONGED someone special, who never deserved being hurt. There's nothing to take pride in, there.
You are right again, and certainly I wasn't suggesting you should be proud of breaking her heart. What I meant was you should take pride in knowing you did the right thing even though it hurt you and her right now, because allowing the situation to persist would have hurt both of you much more later.
I'm not standing for W, either. I'm taking the advice I got to give myself time and learn how to be a whole person again. Maybe I have a future with W. Maybe not. Maybe through some amazing act of fate I will end up with GF at the right time and get the life that I actually want.
Either way, I have to be whole first.
If I'm doing the right thing, why does it feel wrong? If I'm doing the healthy thing, why does it hurt? If I'm trying to heal, why do I feel more broken? If I'm trying to protect someone from me, then why did I hurt them?
If I'm doing the right thing, why does it feel wrong? If I'm doing the healthy thing, why does it hurt? If I'm trying to heal, why do I feel more broken? If I'm trying to protect someone from me, then why did I hurt them?
You know the answer to this. The healthy thing might hurt in the short term, but will be the best choice in the long term. You are trying to heal through someone else, that's why you feel broken. It just doesn't work that way. You took the bandage off and it ripped off all your chest hair, and that hurts. Now you begin to heal. GF was going to feel the effects of this either way. You began a relationship while still in a marriage and just freshly left. You are sparing her more pain down now. You went on a date and held hands with your W while having a GF. being in that situation is worse for her. You did the right thing trying to resolve unresolved issues and healing yourself before you become a part of a couple yet again. I am sure she must have know risk comes with dating a married man.
You are grieving not one but the loss of two now. Which is why they warn against R's while still married and fresh. Please give yourself the time to heal and grieve. It takes time and it does come if you put the work into it.
If you take a painkiller it takes away the pain, but masks the problem. If you surgically remove the problem, the pain is great, but the problem is solved.
Vapo said it in a very succinct manner. That's what I w as trying to say (he used medical references too, and I'm the nurse)
I hope I didn't come off as insensitive, and if I did, I am sorry. I can sympathize as in my last relationship ended when we had a great R. Circumstances in which we know the pain would be much greater in the future.
You are not mourning not only one lost love but two. That is extremely difficult. But I know when you get through this there is a lot of gifts on the other side.
And if you are meant to be with either of them down the line, you will be. I truly believe in that.
You come from a good place. Now is the time to get to know more about yourself as someone not in a relationship. get to know you. Fall in love with yourself without having another half and you will be ready one day to add to your life.
If I'm doing the right thing, why does it feel wrong? If I'm doing the healthy thing, why does it hurt? If I'm trying to heal, why do I feel more broken? If I'm trying to protect someone from me, then why did I hurt them?
My advice? GAL, GAL, GAL.
When you least feel like it is the time when it is the most important. You need some time to really date yourself and focus on your wellbeing.
For me, what worked best was setting some goals and looking in on them weekly to see how I was doing. Goals for parenting, for treating my ex, for GAL, for 'cleaning up my side of the street', etc, etc. Setting a plan for a couple weeks at a time and trying to stick to it.
"My answer was, "have you ever said 'I would give ANYTHING for just one more day?' Well I'd give anything for just one more day with my family. No matter how much this hurts, no matter how much this sets me back, no matter what it costs me, I want this."
EastTN it's as if you took the words right out of my mouth. but it's draining. it's exhausting. Yet the alternative means feeling lonely, feeling you missed an opportunity... am I close?
As to options: Isn't E where you aren't sure if M is over even if others say GF might be a better fit?
If you really are over M I would suggest end that part and tell GF that if she is there in a few months you would love to get to know her.
But who am I to give advice... I seem to have similar inner turmoil without a GF involved. And part of me wants someone else but it wouldn't be fair to that other person (and to myself).
If I'm doing the right thing, why does it feel wrong? If I'm doing the healthy thing, why does it hurt? If I'm trying to heal, why do I feel more broken? If I'm trying to protect someone from me, then why did I hurt them?
I love Ginger's response, spot-on! The "wrong" thing was rushing into another relationship before you were ready. You ended it, but there's collateral damage because you started it in the first place. THAT is why it feels wrong, because you hurt someone. And you hurt yourself. Healing from that takes time.
As I said up above, I did the same thing. Rushed into an R too soon. It was a year post-BD for me, but that was too soon. A lot of the problem with DB'ing is we want so bad to be over BD and over our broken marriages that we convince ourselves we're better even when we're not.
GIVE YOURSELF THE GIFT OF TIME.
GF sent me a text tearing me a new a--hole last night. She tells me just how badly I have hurt her, in no uncertain terms. After that, it can be generally summed up as "you are unhealthy because you do not want to be healthy. You are unhappy because you do not want to be happy. You are afraid because of what you allowed other people do to you. You have everything you SAY you want staring you in the face, and you are running away from it. You already know HOW to be the man you want to be, so BE THAT MAN."
She also points out, as many of you did, that I am ALLOWING W to manipulate me.
I can't disagree with anything she said.
I said earlier that I hated that I was the WAS. I question that premise, now, though. W is no LBS. W is a WW. One who is showing no REAL signs of change, only enough to keep me hooked and get what she wants. I question even if she is non-functionally depressed, as that has become her excuse de jure of why everything is my fault ("you made me choose when I had no ability to function") and something thrown in my face whenever I questioned any of her actions.
I'm Deciding. This is Over. I choose for it to be Over. I refuse to give W the power to hurt me anymore. I refuse to allow myself to be manipulated anymore. I choose to give up hope for the continued existence of my family unit.
Saying those words fills me with fear. But it's less fear than I already felt.
Not going back to GF. At least not yet. I need to not be full of fear. I need to be sure that I want that for the right reasons. But both my head and my heart are telling me that's where I belong. When I'm ready, if I'm lucky, maybe she'll still want me.
EastTN it's as if you took the words right out of my mouth. but it's draining. it's exhausting. Yet the alternative means feeling lonely, feeling you missed an opportunity... am I close?
It was draining and exhausting. I won't do it again. But I got it, and I'm keeping it locked away in my head and heart forever. I'll take it.
As to options: Isn't E where you aren't sure if M is over even if others say GF might be a better fit?
I gave that one a LOT of thought. "Better fit" doesn't work for me. We don't (or shouldn't!) choose to leave a relationship for another based on the idea of trading up. That's how at least half of us ended up on this site to start with! Not being sure I was done was based on a few different premises: 1. Still love W. 2. (Laboring under delusion that?) W still loved me. 3. W appeared to want to try to fix things. 4. I thought I could do the work. 5. If 1-4 were valid, that was the correct path.
GF actually told me that if I could fix M, then that was the right thing to do, regardless of any feelings either of us had.
1 is something I've chosen to try to stop. 2 appears to have been nothing more than a tactic on W's part. 3 appears to have been false. 4 is something I have come to the conclusion will kill me--possibly literally. 5 is moot at this point.
But who am I to give advice... I seem to have similar inner turmoil without a GF involved. And part of me wants someone else but it wouldn't be fair to that other person (and to myself).
You keep saying the two of us are pretty similar. There are a couple of people here that I REALLY want to see turn things around, and you're one of them. Hang in there. If you want it, and think it can be fixed from your side, then don't give up, and don't complicate it.
The funny part is that I don't feel sad. Or angry. I feel like this is the last push I needed to walk away from this. That she'll never be able to get that kind of emotion out of me again, which means there's no way she can control me (except D, but L says that's not going to happen).
I truly don't want her back.
The conclusions we've come to though are that this really is over.
I'm Deciding. This is Over. I choose for it to be Over.
Words.....are words.
Im not saying you dont have the right attitude.
But at some point, your actions need to match your words.
Words.....are words.
Im not saying you dont have the right attitude.
But at some point, your actions need to match your words.
Yes. I thought long and hard about that. That I've said this before. That I've said a LOT of things before and changed my mind.
I hit a bad place this weekend. I realized that I don't have anything left, no margin for error. If I let this drag on anymore, I'm in serious danger of losing my mental health, and won't have the ability to care for D. The stark parallels to my past tell me where I'm going, and I'm never going back to that place inside me.
It is at this point that I lose everything if I don't drop this rope. Am I strong enough? I don't know, but I'm going to find out.
What was your response to ex-gf?
My concern is that you told her you need to work on yourself right now and maybe reconnection will happen in the future.
One of the common traits of a WW is that they will give LBS just enough hope to keep them available, have their safety net.
I believe some LBS put off the hard work of fixing themselves in hopes that WW will comeback, and LBS thinks the then they won't have to do the work.
Are you now stringing your ex gf along so you have a safety net?
I did tell her I still want her. It's the truth.
GF is stronger, smarter, and more mature than I am. She's fine with giving me time, but "taking a break" and "time" mean exactly that. I'm not allowed to talk to her until I figure my stuff out and decide what I actually want.
The way she phrased it was something along the lines of "You know I love you, you know I want you, but I'm not going to let you do to me what other people have done and are doing to you."
I keep hearing from you guys that "broken attracts broken" but that sure as hell sounds like a strong, healthy boundary to me! I will reiterate my question: why am I walking away from this? I don't want to. At all! I don't want a band-aid, either. I had a friend actually yell at me about this yesterday, asking me what the hell I thought I was doing walking away from this, because from where SHE was sitting, this looked real.
I haven't given up on GAL activities. I still play soccer. I'm still losing weight, even if my pace has slowed a bit (at about 80 lbs). I took another cooking class (with GF--seemed like a double win, great date AND something that improved me!)
I'm still trying to be the best EastTN I can be. Being a good dad. I've been a lousy boyfriend for the last week, but my problems are soluble. I know what to work on, and even HOW to work on it. I'm still afraid of that work, but I have one hell of a reason to do it (being whole for my daughter).
I've gotten advice to "date myself." Well, he and I are already pretty damned intimate. I've been living inside my head for my whole life. It's a rare day when I don't understand myself. Brutal shocks like I've suffered this year always make me loopy, but I recover pretty quickly. If I can face my fear, and face my pain, then I'm on the right path.
That's what's missing. Acceptance. I've said it over and over but haven't accepted it. Not really. Vapo called me out on that months ago. I haven't really accepted things yet.
But you know what? I finally f---ing want to.
It is really exhausting reading your answers. I would recommend you reread your threads.
YOU ARE SPINNING. Dude, you are spinning your wheels, making a heluva lot of smoke and going nowhere. The whole forum is talking to you, but you are not hearing. OH, you say you hear us, but the meaning escapes you. I have no problem with people not taking advice, but people not taking advice and then asking what happened... It sound like mocking a true effort from all of the group. I get you dude, I hear you dude, I was you dude, until I stopped trying to stop the hemorrhage with a bandaid. IT WON'T WORK! And the sooner you realize it, the sooner you will be on your way to a way better place which can be described as hell. I was there dude. I am not there any more. And I do not plan on going there anywhere soon.
Now I hope you have came to the realization why you are not ready to date yet. Not nearly ready. And any other pep talk you hive yourself about your GF is just cow patties.
You seriously have to stop and just breathe. Not chase skirts, not trying to rescue anyone, just stop and breathe. You have at least a year's worth of healing to do. I am surprised, shocked even, that no one of the posters and not even you pointed out the elephant in the room. Your 1st marriage imploded, you went out, got a quick fix and guess what, it also imploded and what do you do? You go get yourself another quick fix and then you still wonder WTF went wrong...
Really dude? REALLY?
2*4's incoming, East. Grab a helmet.
I keep hearing from you guys that "broken attracts broken" but that sure as hell sounds like a strong, healthy boundary to me!
Hoo boy. East, I meant to reply to you yesterday after her angry text. I saw you deciding she had a point. I feared you'd go where you are now, and you did. I'm sorry I didn't have time to reply to you.
East. This person dated a man on the rebound, knowing he was the walking wounded. She rushed. She introduced him to her parents. When he left her, she lashed out with angry texts to try to guilt trip and bait him into returning to her. These are not the actions of a healthy well-balanced individual, dude.
She's not setting a boundary. She's doing the same thing you do - projecting her worth onto another person and trying desperately not to have to be alone. This is not healthy boundary setting. It's anything but.
How do I know? I've been her. When I was in my early 20s. I had almost zero self-esteem and I was only attracted to men where there were obstacles built in to being with me: rebounds, pining for another woman, long distance. I was codependent. I put my own needs aside to fix another, thinking the love I would get in return would prove something to myself about my worth.
It was a mess. This woman is also a mess. She is not healthy in any shape or form because she does not think highly of herself. If she did, she would not have dated you in your state. And, (these wouldn't apply, since she would have stayed away, but for posterity's sake): she would have taken it really slow, she would not have introduced you to her parents because the jury was still out on whether the relationship would last after you felt better, and she would not have lashed out with angry and immature texts when you ended it. That is what maturity and healthy boundaries looks like.
You are your own worst enemy. You put on blinders tied to your emotions, determined to not see anything contradictory. Your feedback is always other people pointing out what you're missing, but you just grow more and more stubborn and set in your ways to "prove something" to us. What is going on, East? You're - presumably - here for help, and part of the appeal of being here is that you've got strangers who can help draw your attention to areas outside of your personal patterns in order to help you develop new healthy traits and be happier in your life. Yet you won't agree because you don't see things the same way (blinders) and then you do this rebellion thing that - time and time again - seems to just make things worse for yourself.
Part of the psychology of the rebound for the person on the rebound is projecting the positive qualities of the ex onto the new person. After the infatuation/limerance wears off, only then can we see that those positives aren't actually there, we just really wanted them to be. You are not seeing her for her. You are projecting what you feel you've lost and can't live without onto her. In reality, she is NOT amazing, healthy, and good with boundaries.
After you began to feel better and healed by using her, you were going to lose attraction to her and leave her. You were going to use her until you'd built up your ego via her. How do I know? A) I've been her years ago and I know how it goes, B) Two people who struggle with self-esteem and codependency are not a long term match. Most likely, when you were a little stronger you would see her for her and be repelled by her determination to fix you, because you don't feel you're worth it. You want women who feel superior to you and who reject you in small or large ways, because you're still trying to heal some wound that was most likely developed in your childhood.
Back away from the rebound, East. This has disaster written all over it.
Can you at least accept that your feelings will lead you astray right now? You put so much trust into them, not understanding that you're wearing lenses and that your emotions will likely change as you heal and (hopefully) stop repeating your patterns and grow stronger.
why am I walking away from this? I don't want to
Because you are an adult walking away from something that is unhealthy. You are not a three year old in the grocery store who wants a piece of candy. You are stronger than your "wants".
You showed the same "But I waaaant toooooo!" longing when we first pointed out that you were rebounding, and your childlike reaction to that feedback really cemented it for me that you were in a really bad place. Now I'm picturing you stomping your feet in the candy store aisle again, and we all see the cavities and weight struggles in your future that you are incapable of seeing right now.
I had a friend actually yell at me about this yesterday, asking me what the hell I thought I was doing walking away from this, because from where SHE was sitting, this looked real.
This friend is projecting something onto you. She has likely behaved similarly to the rebound, and wants it to work because the situations she put herself in made her angry and "should have" worked if only the guy saw her value.
Don't listen to this friend. I'm sure she's a lovely person, but you'll note the pattern of speaking to friends and family of our situations is that they give us advice that they see as the quickest way to end our pain/make us happy, not necessarily what is best for us, and not necessarily in line with our stated goals.
Stop looking for excuses that align with your blinders.
I've gotten advice to "date myself." Well, he and I are already pretty damned intimate. I've been living inside my head for my whole life. It's a rare day when I don't understand myself. Brutal shocks like I've suffered this year always make me loopy, but I recover pretty quickly. If I can face my fear, and face my pain, then I'm on the right path.
Honey, the fact that you went for a rebound with an extremely insecure woman whom you can't even see clearly betrays this thought about yourself. You have very poor self-reflection right now because you are wrapped up in your pain and you're doing one thing and one thing only: grasping at things to try to make your pain go away.
This is not reflection. This is not understanding. This is emotional blinders and taking the easy road, and being destructive to yourself and others in the process.
Leave the candy aisle and think about why you avoid being alone. Why can you only see your value when reflected back at you in the eyes of a woman?
Until you work on those things BY CONFRONTING THEM AND NOT AVOIDING THEM, you will continue to repeat your patterns. They are currently at the heart of all of your pain and dysfunctional choices. There are no detours and shortcuts here, unfortunately.
I'm replying to myself, but I'll have you know, East, that I spent my walk to work thinking about this, and I would like to take you by the shoulders and shake you a little bit.
One thing I neglected to point out to you on the topic of healthy boundaries is something you should be paying attention to: You set a boundary by ending the relationship. She is fighting you on setting that boundary. That is not respectful behavior. That is not respecting your autonomy.
An emotionally healthy woman - if she dated you in the first place - would say "You know, I'm disappointed because I really like you, but I know I took a risk by dating you before you were really ready. I wish you the best!" and move on to heal and find someone emotionally available to her.
An emotionally healthy woman would respect your decision to break up with her. She'd know it takes two people to create and stay in a relationship, and just one to end it.
The one you're actually dealing with is trying to tell you that you are wrong, and she knows you better than yourself. She wants to fix you and earn your love to prove her worth to herself. She wants you to reverse the boundary that you have every right to set because SHE is scared to be alone with HERSELF. Not because she likes you so much, but because she's made you into a barometer of her worth.
East, this has Absolute Disaster written all over it. You are both insecure and codependent but neither of you can see through your emotional pain enough to notice. Limit the damage to the present. Set the boundary and notice it that she isn't respecting it. Her actions are very telling of her character.
Cadence, I just need to say every post I have ever read of yours is PHENOMENAL. Are you a psychologist? I am serious.
That even made me read into my own R habits. With my ex H I was definitely thinking if I could get someone as unhealthy to love me, it showed I was worthy of love. While I can now walk away from unhealthy or relationships that simply can't work, I always tie it to my worth and say "well, if they would have stayed and then I am worthy enough."
Very insightful.
No, not a psychologist. Just really interested in figuring people out.
Rest assured, I remain an ignoramus in my own life! It's more difficult to see ourselves clearly.
I broke the boundary. Not her. I sent her a couple of texts. I put something on facebook for her and her alone.
Me.
I broke the boundary. Not her. I sent her a couple of texts. I put something on facebook for her and her alone.
Sigh. Okay. Let me modify then: an emotionally healthy woman would look at your hot/cold up/down and be very wary of you and keep herself away from you knowing that you were a loose cannon who was very likely to hurt her.
It would look like "East, I really like you, but it's best for both of us to end this now. I need stability and you can't offer that to me right now. I wish you the best."
In the meantime, did you hear anything else that was said to you?
Cadence - your insight is amazing.
East - really listen to what Cadence is telling you. I couldn't agree with her more.
I second Cadence's thoughts. C, that was nothing short of AWESOME...
I broke the boundary. Not her. I sent her a couple of texts. I put something on facebook for her and her alone.
Me.
For your wife or your girlfriend to see?
never thought I'd be asking a LBS that question.
Great responses from Vapo and Cadence, that is some awesome stuff! East, I don't really have anything to add other than this brief summary- you're broken, you need to work on YOU and you cannot do that with the distractions of a GF. Leave her be. Leave your wife be too. Time to do the hard work on YOU.
I have to agree with the others. You could have paid $200 and not received such useful advice. What's more East many of us are seeing and saying the same things. Not all of us have been able to write as eloquently as Cadence has but we see it. Can all of us really be wrong and you are correct? This is an easy call. As Cadence said, it's far easier to see this and follow advice for others. It's really hard when it's us.
I also find it telling that your only response is to yet again defend and try to explain it away. If so, what do you hope to take away from here?
You're all right about me. I haven't seen clearly. I've been blinded by pain and grief. I have been hasty, and reckless. I disagree with the assessment of my motives, but the consequences of my actions are without doubt.
Leave her be. Leave your wife be too. Time to do the hard work on YOU.
That's my path.
East, please realize we are not dumping on you, we are just lovingly applying 2x4s to your head.
Just learn to be still and breathe...
We all got your back, buddy.
Good! You can do this!
East, please realize we are not dumping on you, we are just lovingly applying 2x4s to your head.
Been there with the 2x4's. Except for 25, I think she used a steel pipe. I still have the scars. It made me mad and pouty. I sulked quite a while, then I took it all in, got my s*** together and FINALLY started working on myself. And I still am. It never really ends.
Just one last thing for me to disagree about. Then I'm done not listening. I'm not ignoring you all. But it's important to me that you understand something:
Her actions are very telling of her character.
I agree 100%. All you know about her is what I've said. Not what she's said, what she did, and when and how she did things. You have fragments of conversation. Not the whole thing.
Her actions speak well of her character, not poorly.
Her actions speak well of her character, not poorly.
Including the affairs?
Her actions speak well of her character, not poorly.
So you think dating a married man speaks highly of her character? You're right that we don't know your entire sitch, but what we do know is you are one hard-headed son-of-a-gun. You are determined not to listen to ANYTHING we tell you. I told someone else a few days ago this same thing- all we can do is give you the tools. It's up to you whether to pick them up and use them or not. They're worthless if you leave them lying on the floor like you are doing now.
I dabbled on dating sites for a while after my D. A surprising number of the women's profiles said something along the lines of "do not contact me unless you have been divorced at least 2 years." Those are some smart women.
Doodler, I think he's referring to his GF/rebound situation.
East, all that I said about her is in terms of her as a relationship partner, and I said it because I do want you to be happy. I want whatever your next relationship is - no matter who it is with - to be long lasting and full of love. I don't want more heartbreak for you. And I see a 99.9% of heartbreak and guilt imminent if you continue with her. You do not need that tacked onto what you are already trying to get through regarding your M.
So there is no need to defend her. My comments of her character are in context of how she would be as a relationship partner for you. And her actions thus far show her to not value herself very highly. She also shows signs that she would look to you for her sense of self-worth and as her source of happiness in life.
That doesn't make her a bad person. However, as a long term match for you - who also shows signs of having similar issues as her - it won't work. Right now you see her as a source, but once you are healthier and your ego is built back up (using another person), you will break her heart and you will feel even more awful than you do now.
She is a great short term/rebound, since you feel longing and intensity. However, as everyone who has had a spouse who has longing and intensity for an affair partner knows, those things do not last.
She is not the solution, East. Neither is W. You are. You are your own source of worth, independent of what women think of you. And the only way for you to really and truly believe that is to spend some time on your own with no woman to focus on. This seems to be very scary for you, and that is more evidence that you definitely need to do it. Take a sabbatical from relationships so you can be in a healthier place and make healthier decisions for yourself.
Please consider reading Not Just Friends. It tells a lot about where your walls and windows should be. You are determined at all cost to defend your affair partner, just like your WAW.
You say things like "there are litterly no upsides to a life with W. None" really? Cmon, really? How about D having both of her parents? That's not an upside? What about honoring your commitment to your vows? That's not an upside? See you know darn well, if you think about it, there could be upsides - you just don't want to see them because you are "in love" with this new perfect person who you could not find a bad thing about if you tried.
I'm taking something from this. This is why I held on, and why I continue to hold on.
Please consider reading Not Just Friends. It tells a lot about where your walls and windows should be. You are determined at all cost to defend your affair partner, just like your WAW.
I realize that you're suggesting that for me to better understand something about myself, but having looked at it briefly, there is WAY too much pain there wrapped up in STBXW to get anything out of that other than more trauma right now.
After skimming the first couple of chapters, I feel like throwing up. I knew all of that intuitively half a year ago. Suspected some of it in the early stages. Knew it with complete certainty the day after ILYBNILWY. Asked STBXW what the hell she was thinking when she planned that trip.
Seeing it in print just makes me want to go away and curl up into a little ball.
Rough day. Actually got some productive work done, though.
MIL had a heart cath this morning. Nobody had told me about it (she was in the hospital a few weeks ago and they found problems with her heart function, but I didn't hear about followup). STBXW texted tuesday night and asked me if D and I could take MIL to dinner last night. Responded "Yes."
Was pretty bad when we got there--we didn't end up going to dinner. I don't think MIL would have made it to the car, she looked awful.
D and I just spent a couple of hours with her instead (D fell asleep after 30 minutes or so, though). Really worried about her.
Didn't see STBXW at all. Had to drive passed her house at 5mph twice (she and MIL live 200 yards apart on the same rocky rutted hillside) and wasn't even tempted to stop. I view that as a significant accomplishment.
I've tried to stop doing things for her. I would have D call her every morning and every night (but D almost never calls me on the weekends, I have to call her). So I stopped that this week. She can talk to D anytime she wants, but I'm not going to be the one making sure that happens.
Talked to GF for a while last night. Pretty sure that's the last time for the foreseeable future. Both of us agreeing NC is best, at least for the next month or two. Really sad about that.
I've said a total of seven words to STBXW this week. Really happy about that.
Hey East,
Growth cannot happen without feeling pain.
You read a book and it makes you feel sick, and you say "nope" and put the book down.
You said yesterday that you were ready. You were ready to start confronting some things about yourself that cause you to work against your own self-interests.
Are you planning to do that without going through some hard stuff and some significant pain? If so, I'm wondering what your plan is.
Running for all of your life has gotten you... where? Have you found happiness or are you in the emotional version of the movie Groundhog Day, where the same heartache and disappointments keep happening? If so, then that's not a coincidence.
To me, it looks like women are your drug of choice. Love and focusing on how to make a woman love you keep you distracted, and you're convinced that's the way to happiness. But it's not. If it was, it would have worked by now.
I'm probably taking this personally because my H has TONS of work to do on himself but he avoids it. He told me about a year ago that he was "scared' to confront it because it was all so painful. And he ended up sabotaging his life again and running away. He wants to run and avoid, and I was a sacrifice so that he could keep doing that.
So, for you, when does it stop? When do you do more than lip service? And do you honestly think that your life will change in the ways that you want it to change without confronting some painful things that have led you astray?
Just to be clear on this: you're suggesting that I need to relive the trauma of this year to heal?
I really do have every intent to work on myself, but that sounds absolutely insane.
Running from your pain is running from yourself and your issues. And it will get you in trouble. You have to work through it and take valuable lessons from it. It can very well be the case that you are not emotionally strong enough to deal with it whole ATM. But as you grow stronger, you will develop tools to deal with it and you can begin tackling various aspects of it. Make no mistake, you do have faults and it will benefit you greatly to work through them. You will also learn a lot of yourself during the process. Some aspects will be painful, but not nearly as much as avoiding your issues yet again.
You Sir, are an avoider. In your view avoiding problems makes them go away. It does not...
Just to be clear on this: you're suggesting that I need to relive the trauma of this year to heal?
No, Cadence and Vapo (and now me) are just saying you can't bury or ignore your pain and grief. If you do it'll just come out at some unexpected time later, and be 10x worse! You've got to let yourself feel the pain and go through the recovery process. Don't fight it, let it happen. I am NOT a crier. I never, ever cry. In fact there was a time in my life that I wondered if it was even possible for me to cry. There were times I thought I should cry but couldn't. After BD? I would cry all the way to work (30 minute commute). Then I would cry all the way home. Then I would gather myself to walk in the house and greet the kids, then go and lock myself in the room and cry some more. It was absolutely horrible, I hated crying so much but I let it happen. Eventually it tapered off and then stopped, and then I learned to live with the pain, and then I learned to start living again, and then I learned to start loving life again. Don't push the pain away and pretend it's not there, that's all we're saying. Let it happen, the fastest way to recovery is through the pain, not around it.
Hey EastTN how have things been going? I know we, myself included, were rather firm with our 1.5 X 3.5s (not taking any chances since the 2X4 lawsuit - Google it if you've not heard) but that is to help not harm your progress. You've had so much going on that I know it did not just magically shut off or resolve itself. Hopefully you'll catch us up and let everyone know what steps you've been taking to work on you.
1.5x3.5 gave me a laugh (I'm familiar with the suit).
My status:
1. Basically NC with STBXW for two weeks now. She tries to talk to me. I don't bite unless it's about D. I actually got a text asking "why are you so angry with me?" That made me even more angry, and I just want to yell, but it's not worth it, anymore. Divorce should be final in less than three weeks. Wanting the fantasy has been burned out of me.
2. D is starting to show signs that this is getting to her. She likes talking about how brave she is that she doesn't cry. When she does cry, it's the saddest thing ever. I had to hold her this week and she begged me to "please marry mommy." Made me like STBXW even less. On Tuesday, we went out for dinner. Getting out of the car, she was mad at me and threatened to "beat me to death." I told her that we don't EVER talk to anyone else like that, under any circumstances. When I asked her who had told HER that, her answer was "mommy." Made me like STBXW even less.
3. GF and I are back together. I still have work to do on me. She still has work to do getting through her hurt and anger over Father's Day. We both agree that we cannot do that work for each other, and that we both need to do our work. It's going well. I realize that no one here has a high opinion of this choice, but I'm not changing this one.
4. In NJ visiting family this week. REALLY looking forward to it. Not having family near is tough on many levels. I haven't been "home" in about three years.
5. Birthday was Thursday. Should have been, by all rights, a terrible day. No presents, no cake, no one singing happy birthday, just D and I out to dinner by ourselves at her favorite restaurant (which is actually a nice restaurant and not anywhere you'd expect a six year old to love). Instead of being awful, though, it was great. I got birthday greetings from all over the world (literally), and a stack of handmade cards from GF, with instructions to open one every 30 minutes. They ran from the time I woke up until the time I pick D up from school in the afternoon. Some (most) were punny, some were sweet, a couple were romantic, one or two were risque. No one has done anything that nice for me since Bill Clinton was president. Spent the weekend with GF and some of her extended family that were visiting. Being in a large group of strangers is usually a recipe for me to either shut down or end up exhausted after burning all of my energy being social. Instead, I had a GREAT time. Can honestly say that this is the best birthday I've had in decades, and probably the best weekend I've had in even longer.
We had a "biggest loser" contest at work, which ended Friday. In the last 9 weeks, I've dropped 24.8lbs, 8ish% of my body weight. I'm 3lbs shy of being down 90lbs since all of this started.
GAL goes ok. I started writing again, which I haven't done in years. It'll be something I can read to D when it's finished. She liked the first chapter quite a bit. Writing replaced flying in my GAL plan for now (anxiety + depression = grounded pilot). Soccer goes ok when weather cooperates. Skipped this week and next due to travel. It makes me feel fantastic (not during... I want to DIE during).
I'm being a good dad. D gets her friend times, and her homework time, and I cook for her three nights a week (we have one daddy-daughter date night normally. Two this week because of birthday), make her lunch everyday. We read together every night. Quality time will pick up end of this month when I start getting her on weekends sometimes (I won't get her 3rd because divorce won't be final yet, but I will get her 5th weekend because there is one). I'm looking to having some great times with my kid.
Trying to find a little more "me" time to help with GAL and self improvement.
My C told me not to read the suggested book, that there was nothing to be gained in doing so.
TL;DR: For the first time in quite a while, I'm almost fully functional, actually KNOW what I'm doing, and am not afraid of my future.