This^^ is so, NOT attractive. You're on the really neat trip, not her. This reeks of self pity and mind reading. Saying that you are so low on her list is begging for reassurance and asking for more contact, reassurance that she cannot give. AND YOU ARE making it harder to want to give it. Comes off sounding so needy and in this circumstance she may find that ironic.
Nooooo to #3
You could have said the first one, added something SHE WOULD LIKE in #2 and drop the rest.
Can you see why?
25yearsmlc, yes I ca see why. Funny thing is my intentions of the text were totally different then they are sounding to you guys, so this is good stuff for me to hear! This is giving me a much better idea of how to interact with her and actually text her without ignoring her completely. I think I might be finally getting some of this a little better now. 
Today I text her to just see how she was doing and this is how is went. Let me know if it was better please.
ME: Good morning. Are you doing ok, no more episodes
W: Good afternoon. I'm doing ok. No more episodes so far
ME: That's good, I hope no more.
W: I hope no more too 
ME: I wish they would go away for good.
W: I do too. They are few and far between now. Maybe it's this oil that is really helping
ME: Good 
That was it for the day. Now I have to consider how often I should text her and check on her well being. I certainly can't text about the same thing all the time. It seems she was considering texting me after all that time of from me texting her, but I still ended up texting her first. I would rather just wait for her to initiate it all, but I feel it's not the right thing to do still. Like I said Im going to give it a few days.
Lana,
So what Im starting to gather here on talking to my wife is maybe text her to check up on her, not as in keeping tabs of course, but text to make sure she is doing ok. Ask if she has had anymore episodes or if she is enjoying her time with her parents and so on. The the impression I get from others on here is that I should contact her at all and let her initiate it all. You are right when I don't get it. Hopefully getting more of the book read will help with that.
Like I said I didn't get her I thought about texting you the other day text and if I should comment on that. I thought of just telling her he could text me anytime or is that the wrong idea too? I will text her a little later today to see if she is episode free and Ill keep it brief if she text back, but won't worry about it if she doesn't respond. Considering now that I think about it she still hasn't responded to my last text message at all, but maybe because I said I missed my adventure buddy. I wonder if she would have responded if I address her comment on texting me. Either it's a done deal now, so moving on.
I completely agree with you, at least how I feel about it anyway, is that if I ignore her message it's more of the same old that she has complained about so that is why it's so hard for me to figure this text stuff out.
Yes the book will help a lot. I don't think you can do this program without getting, reading and knowing, the book. It forms the base of this program.
It's an unusual approach. But it has a success rate higher than most, but always remember that if you are here on one of these sites, it means one of you already wants out.
No short cuts. You're in Alaska, right?. If you have an E book, maybe you can read it at "night". Last time I hunted there I got a 6 minute timed shower, after a week long hunt.
No Kindles at the time. I don't know how you're posting, actually
Yes the book will help a lot. I don't think you can do this program without getting, reading and knowing, the book. It forms the base of this program.
It's an unusual approach. But it has a success rate higher than most, but always remember that if you are here on one of these sites, it means one of you already wants out.
No short cuts. You're in Alaska, right?. If you have an E book, maybe you can read it at "night". Last time I hunted there I got a 6 minute timed shower, after a week long hunt.
No Kindles at the time. I don't know how you're posting, actually
Well my wife never said she wants out, she just said she is going back home and needs some time and space. To me it sure seems like she wants out, but she never says she does and that is why it is so confusing to me at the moment.
I found this website by looking up things divorce and what it involves actually, since I had no clue.
Yes Im in Alaska until next month and then I'll be home for about two weeks as far as I know right now. That's when I hope to actually read the book. Im reading bits of at time now because I do need to sleep at night before I start work the next day. I actually bought the hard copy before I came to Alaska and had it sent to my hotel while I was working in Ft Bragg. I am doing a lot of my posting late at night when I have time to catch up on reading the replies on my laptop or posting from my tablet when I have a break at work.
Everyone tells me this is a long process, which is hard for me to understand from my perspective. To me you either want to continue with the relationship or you don't. It's seems so black and white to me because that is how I would do it. I want to continue to be married to my wife and not throw away our history together. I am starting to see it may be a lot longer process since I refuse to call for the divorce at this time and I am leaving that all up to my wife. This makes me wonder though exactly how would she react if I said Im a through and told her I want out. It seems like such a game to me honestly. I know when I was texting her a while back and she seemed to be purposely avoiding the topic I just told her "I give up!" As soon as I said that though she returned immediately with "I was being playful" and then actually gave me some feed back on what we were talking about. Curious I think, don't you?
Hi Cali
I am happy to see a different tone... I feel you will figure it out. It is very good your wife is not asking to be out . I suggest don't bring the subject for you will be shocked with the answer . Most of them will say ok go ahead and file. You need to understand what they have is not attractive to come back to the marriage. To be attaractive first you need to become attractive in their eyes. By being caring loving interesting happy and fun nonjudgemental and accepting their short comings. Second they need to feel better about them self. Something they hVe todo on their own. Unfortunately you can't help that is her journey. You can just encourage her and be supportive.
Note - it is nice to ask about her health in general but I prefers not to focus on the episodes . Don't expect msg in return sometimes their don't know what to say. Just like you didnot know how to answer when she told you she was thinking to msg you ... it is ok if they don't answer back let it be give them time to feel things and process them. That is why we say don't purse with too many msg . They need time to figure their feelings .
Again let me tell you this is not a game if you say you want out she is not going to protest. She will even sometimes push all your buttons to make you quit for two reasons you will either do quit and this will solidify what she is thinking about that you have the ability to quit fast. Or you will become the unbearable angry spouse who will say all the wrong things and give her all the ammunition to quit.
Rather than giving her that power the decision is in your hand if you want to quit go ahead but if you don't want that wait and see but don't suggest until you are completely done and check with your lawyer before that.
I wish you all the luck ,
Hi Cali
I am happy to see a different tone... I feel you will figure it out. It is very good your wife is not asking to be out . I suggest don't bring the subject for you will be shocked with the answer . Most of them will say ok go ahead and file. You need to understand what they have is not attractive to come back to the marriage. To be attaractive first you need to become attractive in their eyes. By being caring loving interesting happy and fun nonjudgemental and accepting their short comings. Second they need to feel better about them self. Something they hVe todo on their own. Unfortunately you can't help that is her journey. You can just encourage her and be supportive.
Note - it is nice to ask about her health in general but I prefers not to focus on the episodes . Don't expect msg in return sometimes their don't know what to say. Just like you didnot know how to answer when she told you she was thinking to msg you ... it is ok if they don't answer back let it be give them time to feel things and process them. That is why we say don't purse with too many msg . They need time to figure their feelings .
Again let me tell you this is not a game if you say you want out she is not going to protest. She will even sometimes push all your buttons to make you quit for two reasons you will either do quit and this will solidify what she is thinking about that you have the ability to quit fast. Or you will become the unbearable angry spouse who will say all the wrong things and give her all the ammunition to quit.
Rather than giving her that power the decision is in your hand if you want to quit go ahead but if you don't want that wait and see but don't suggest until you are completely done and check with your lawyer before that.
I wish you all the luck ,
Im just tired, tired of all of it. That is why I am talking of divorce myself. I am still wanting to do the right thing and I refuse to ask for a divorce myself, but I am sure there is a point I won't go beyond. Im not sure what it is yet, but I hope things iron out before that time. It would be such a waste to throw away our time together and it would feel like it was all a big mistake. I still hope that it isn't, but in my heart if she continues this path then I won't want to pursue someone who was pretending to be someone else and can drop everything we had together.
You make a very good point on me calling for a divorce and I have actually thought of these exact same things. It's certainly good to be reminded of it and to solidify my way of thinking about it too.
As far as the contact thing goes, today I sent her a beautiful pic of a mountain in Alaska and said good afternoon, but she has yet to reply to it. This will mark the first time that she has ever completely ignored me in that sense. Still trying to figure exactly what the best way to stay in communication with my wife is. I just got a mission change today and I am heading out of Alaska early and heading to Hawaii for a little bit. In the past my normal thing would be to send her my itinerary so she knows when Im flying and when I'll be home, but I am wondering if I shouldn't even tell her where Ill be. Such a chess match that we are playing in a sense.
When they say to not believe a word your spouse says, what does that really mean? When should you start to believe what they say? For instance when I ask how my wife is doing she responds with "I'm doing OK or I'm doing OK I guess, does that mean she is really doing great? Or is it only the absolutes and the real negatives your spouse talks about?
Ok so she just texted me back at about 12pm her time. She said this. How should I respond??
Good evening. I hope you had a great day! You're probably at the gym working out. Have a good workout
I'm trying to learn how to respond the best way.
I had another thought. So why does everyone on my side of things, my friends, family and her friends on the West Coast continue to reach out to her and support her, but I don't get so much as a peep out of her family. They all act like I am just not a part of it anymore.
Also I just talked to my buddy and his wife is friends with my wife. My buddies wife reached out to her to day and asked how she was doing and said she missed her. My wife responded with I miss you too and that she is confused and taking one day at a time right now. Then she asked my wife what she was confused about. My wife said that she was confused at how things went the way they did with us. I got to say so am I!
Im just tired, tired of all of it. That is why I am talking of divorce myself.
Unfortunately, filing for divorce wont change that feeling. All it will do is change your relationship status. It wont make you love her or miss her any less. The only way forward is through. Tired or not, youre going to need to go on.
Such a chess match that we are playing in a sense.
Yes. Its a chess match where she can change the rules whenever she wants and you are playing blindfolded. You cant win. Thats what Sandi's rules are really about. Learning how to stop playing the game.
Ok so she just texted me back at about 12pm her time. She said this. How should I respond??
Good evening. I hope you had a great day! You're probably at the gym working out. Have a good workout
I'm trying to learn how to respond the best way.
The way I would do it is mirror back but about at a 70% level.
Something like: "Thanks. I hope you had a good day as well."
But thats just me.
When they say to not believe a word your spouse says, what does that really mean? When should you start to believe what they say? For instance when I ask how my wife is doing she responds with "I'm doing OK or I'm doing OK I guess, does that mean she is really doing great? Or is it only the absolutes and the real negatives your spouse talks about?
I think it's more about things regarding the relationship. For example, things like "I never loved you", "She's just a friend", "You never do XXX", "I hate you", and so on and so on.
Lots of people that come here focus their actions on specific words or feelings that the WAS says. But thats like building your house on sand because the WAS' feelings shift so rapidly that you cant make any kind of consistent plan based on something they say. Also, add to that that sometimes they will say things to gaslight, to exaggerate, or flat out lie.
This means theres really no way to discern whats true and what isnt. If your W said she never had sex with any of the people she is talking to - would you believe her with 100% certainty? I wouldnt because theres no way right now for you to really know. It's a whole lot easier to accept that everything she says is untrustworthy right now.
As for whether she is "fine" or "great" or "terrible"....who knows!
Should I start sending my wife simple text just to keep in contact or be sending hardly any? I was thinking of just sending her a simple good morning and a good night kind of thing and maybe a hope your day went well. Im going to do it with no expectations out of it other then communicating with her more. I know I have said it many times, but it's something she complained about before was the lack of talking while I was on the road. Is this a bad idea?
By the way I was actually able to get a short of amount of time to read DR last night and I am in about 60 pages so far. I am hoping to do about the same tonight if I have the time.
Hello Cali
In DB we usually try to find what works. So you can try sending a msg daily or every other day . Make it different. But before you start sending don't expect an answer and don't send multiple if she doesnot respond. Keep it light entertaining. Ensure not to send too many in one go. This is something I did in the past and I regret.
Do not don't explain any situation .
Don't share how you feel, don't wait for reassurance,
don't ask her probing question. Keep it light , start that way and see. Give it two weeks and reasses if it worked or not. In the mean time detach and have a life to help you detach from the outcome.
That is my opinion . But know this is about her trying to feel good with herself .somehow she is lost and need to find some meaning to her life.
Ensure to take care of yourself ... this is a bumpy exhausting road. Enjoy the freedom time she has given you.
Hello Cali
In DB we usually try to find what works. So you can try sending a msg daily or every other day . Make it different. But before you start sending don't expect an answer and don't send multiple if she doesnot respond. Keep it light entertaining. Ensure not to send too many in one go. This is something I did in the past and I regret.
Do not don't explain any situation .
Don't share how you feel, don't wait for reassurance,
don't ask her probing question. Keep it light , start that way and see. Give it two weeks and reasses if it worked or not. In the mean time detach and have a life to help you detach from the outcome.
That is my opinion . But know this is about her trying to feel good with herself .somehow she is lost and need to find some meaning to her life.
Ensure to take care of yourself ... this is a bumpy exhausting road. Enjoy the freedom time she has given you.
I already have been expecting nothing from her. It is odd how she will sometimes talk quite a bit to me, still about nothing, but she is definitely more chatty at times. She was even talking to my mother and brother the other day for a little bit of a conversation.
It's another weekend free for me in Alaska, so Im about to head out and do some exploring. I will probably send her some pics of what I find today and that is it. I might just wait until after the weekend to text her the pics, but Im thinking of not responding back to her or very little at all if she responds to the pics. I don't know this still feels like such a game to me, but I am about 120 pages into the DR book now and hopefully Ill find a nice quite spot where I am completely away from any kind of civilization to read some more before I head back down off the mountain today.
I have been looking at my wifes tumblr page which I have never been on or even have my own page, but I have been reading all the quotes she has been posting and I am learning a lot about her sadness that she was going through. It has been eye opening for me in a sense. I was very open when reading the things she was posting and sharing and it breaks my heart to see a glimpse of how she must have felt. She is clearly a person who has been desperately trying to find herself. In all honesty I don't think she lost herself like she has claimed to me, but I don't think she has ever really known who she is. I am finding empathy for her through this and it's helping me understand things better. It's something I have never had to deal with and I think she saw and knew that and it probably made her feel worse about it.
I am looking at my wife as being more in a midlife crisis then anything else right now. It adds up better to me then anything else when trying to understand why she left. My wife is only 29 so it seems a bit weird calling it a midlife crisis, but it fits in my opinion. It makes me more than anything to want to reach out to her. I have been reading the DR book and I read through Step number 2 and 3 which are know what you want and ask for what you want. As far as knowing what I want, other than our marriage to work, is wanting to understand my wife. I want her to talk to me and tell me about things so I can understand her better. I am also willing to open up to her the best way I can if she asks, but that isn't my goal really. I just want her to talk to me as a friend would and let me know of her struggles that she has been dealing with. So I am strongly thinking of writing her an email or hand written letter to ask her to talk to me a bit. I think writing her would be easier then trying to first talk to her about it since I actually think she would read it all the way through. My wifes loves to write and read both so I think this would appeal to her.
I have also thought about writing the forgiveness letter I talked about earlier. It will have nothing to do with me forgiving her, but me asking for forgiveness as to how blind I was to everything. I would post my letters up on here for you guys to proof read if you would and help me change things that might be damning. I don't expect anything from her other than for her to read it and just get an understanding of the realizations I have went through and what I have learned in her absence. What do you guys think? I will post up some the quotes she has posted too.
So I haven't text my wife for three days and today she initiated a text with a hi. I responded with a hi back and then sent her a couple picks of some beautiful places I have been in Alaska.
W:hi
ME: hi (sent pics) I wanted to share with you my reading spot this weekend. I thought you would like it
W: That's beautiful!!
W: Going to charge my phone for a bit in my room. Didn't realize it's at 16%
ME: OK
I went to the gym to do my thing and about 4 hours later she text me again.
W: Im getting ready for bed. It's midnight and Im (personal stuff)
ME: OK, night
W: I took a muscle relaxer so I'm pretty relaxed
W: almost asleep
W: (Still having personal issues Lol!)
W: How are you?
ME: I'm good, thanks. Get some sleep
That was it, so how am I doing in my responses to her?
You are doing much, much better, and as a result she is reaching out to you more. Keep it up!!
You are doing much, much better, and as a result she is reaching out to you more. Keep it up!!
Thanks! This morning she contacted me again.
W: What book are you reading?
ME: Just something for myself
W: oh ok
And that was the extent of it again. Im off work early and I am about to go hunt down a glacier and find a spot to do some more reading on the DR book.
Nice work, Cali. Keep it up! She's taken notice that there's something different about you.
Just catching up
Should I start sending my wife simple text just to keep in contact or be sending hardly any? I was thinking of just sending her a simple good morning and a good night kind of thing and maybe a hope your day went well. Im going to do it with no expectations out of it other then communicating with her more. I know I have said it many times, but it's something she complained about before was the lack of talking while I was on the road. Is this a bad idea?
I'm not saying no contact is the route. My problem with this^^ approach is that it's not designed to generate conversation, or if it is, it's putting the burden on her to be interesting or upbeat or whatever. Just a thought.
By the way I was actually able to get a short of amount of time to read DR last night and I am in about 60 pages so far. I am hoping to do about the same tonight if I have the time.
its well worth reading
I have been looking at my wifes tumblr page which I have never been on or even have my own page, but I have been reading all the quotes she has been posting and I am learning a lot about her sadness that she was going through. It has been eye opening for me in a sense. I was very open when reading the things she was posting and sharing and it breaks my heart to see a glimpse of how she must have felt. She is clearly a person who has been desperately trying to find herself. In all honesty I don't think she lost herself like she has claimed to me, but I don't think she has ever really known who she is. I am finding empathy for her through this and it's helping me understand things better. It's something I have never had to deal with and I think she saw and knew that and it probably made her feel worse about it.
I am looking at my wife as being more in a midlife crisis then anything else right now. It adds up better to me then anything else when trying to understand why she left. My wife is only 29 so it seems a bit weird calling it a midlife crisis, but it fits in my opinion.
It makes me more than anything to want to reach out to her. I have been reading the DR book and I read through Step number 2 and 3 which are know what you want and ask for what you want. As far as knowing what I want, other than our marriage to work, is wanting to understand my wife. I want her to talk to me and tell me about things so I can understand her better. I am also willing to open up to her the best way I can if she asks, but that isn't my goal really. I just want her to talk to me as a friend would and let me know of her struggles that she has been dealing with. So I am strongly thinking of writing her an email or hand written letter to ask her to talk to me a bit. I think writing her would be easier then trying to first talk to her about it since I actually think she would read it all the way through. My wifes loves to write and read both so I think this would appeal to her.
I have also thought about writing the forgiveness letter I talked about earlier. It will have nothing to do with me forgiving her, but me asking for forgiveness as to how blind I was to everything. I would post my letters up on here for you guys to proof read if you would and help me change things that might be damning. I don't expect anything from her other than for her to read it and just get an understanding of the realizations I have went through and what I have learned in her absence. What do you guys think? I will post up some the quotes she has posted too.
This ^^^ post has really moved me. Disclosure builds intimacy. It will need to go both ways at some point. Soon, I hope.
Let her in, and maybe she'll let you in.
The post about her sadness hits home for me, it's similar to a lot of what I'm learning about myself and the relationship. I wrote that forgiveness letter you are talking about, it was good for me but in the end I decided not to send it to her. Once you can see the sadness she feels it can hit you hard, keep yourself realistic and don't take all the blame.
This led me to read "The Gifts of Imperfection" by Brene Brown. Maybe you'd get something from it too when you are done with DR.
YES, Cali! I think you've finally caught on! LOL. Keep it up!
I love Brene Brown, a recent gift I discovered. She has some TED talks about shame
and it has helped me to understand h. Cali...
-- while guilt makes us feel bad about our actions even if no one else knows
shame is worrying about others' finding out. Many MLCers and WAS's have shame issues which prompts their
Over the top charades or parades of "I'm SO HAPPY NOW!" claims. Like it is as always the LBSers keeping them from happiness.
It hurts, I admit.
Cali, your w may be dealing with depression (and whatever her episodes are) and the one thing she can "easily" change, is her partner.
Every one of us is flawed. So. Why not remove the flawed character from our lives and...and...
see, I think your w's confusion is a semi good sign. She's not posting on FB or tumblr about how great things are now that you are out of the picture.
On the contrary, she's posting about pain.
I'm going to repeat something I really want to point out b/c you mentioned how you'd "try" to open up...
Disclosure builds intimacy.
I think the guys she is posting to, well maybe She's reaching out to them b/c...
well, you tell us? More importantly, what can you do to help her open up to you?
maybe try opening up to her without any parental tone, or judgement or agenda.
Just tell her some things about yourself that are authentic, including fears and things Unrelated to the m.
Just an idea...and if you get to that EE workshop I think you'll learn a lot about this.
The post about her sadness hits home for me, it's similar to a lot of what I'm learning about myself and the relationship. I wrote that forgiveness letter you are talking about, it was good for me but in the end I decided not to send it to her. Once you can see the sadness she feels it can hit you hard, keep yourself realistic and don't take all the blame.
This led me to read "The Gifts of Imperfection" by Brene Brown. Maybe you'd get something from it too when you are done with DR.
Thank you for the recommendation on the book. I am pretty realistic about it and realize that she has to find happiness with herself before she will ever find it with me or anyone else for that matter. A very depressed person is hard to make happy no matter what and I am realizing that, yes, I didn't help matters, but I was far from what her real problems are in my opinion. I just hope that she can learn to love again like she has before and stop relying on me others to make her happy.
I love Brene Brown, a recent gift I discovered. She has some TED talks about shame
and it has helped me to understand h. Cali...
-- while guilt makes us feel bad about our actions even if no one else knows
shame is worrying about others' finding out. Many MLCers and WAS's have shame issues which prompts their
Over the top charades or parades of "I'm SO HAPPY NOW!" claims. Like it is as always the LBSers keeping them from happiness.
This makes a lot of sense and I can see this in a lot of her actions. She has always been a very moral person, but now she seems to have dropped some of her morals too. I also think it's a way of coping with things that she knows is wrong. When I went to visit her awhile back she acted like she was just so happy, but it was a facade. My mother is always sending me things about my wife, which honestly gets a little annoying, but she only means well. She can see what my wife posts on instagram, which I don't have. Like today my mom send me a pic she posted of her being at the beach and the told me about a video of her lip syncing a song while in a car. Makes my mother mad because she has a duty as a wife yet she is acting like everything is great and has no care in the world. Basically like she is a single woman. I take it as an act because if all of this was the truth and she is so happy without me then she would cut the relationship off in my opinion and ask for a divorce, yet she doesn't.
Cali, your w may be dealing with depression (and whatever her episodes are) and the one thing she can "easily" change, is her partner.
Isn't that the sad truth! Although I don't think it was all her own doing. I am quite sure she had help from people over there who convinced her this was the right move and who continue to distract her from dealing with it. When it's said and done she will miss me and all I did for her. The realization that the grass isn't greener on the other side will hit her hard one day and I won't be there for her when it does. At that point I wonder who she will blame and where she will run to. I pray for her every night that she will find happiness.
Every one of us is flawed. So. Why not remove the flawed character from our lives and...and...
see, I think your w's confusion is a semi good sign. She's not posting on FB or tumblr about how great things are now that you are out of the picture.
On the contrary, she's posting about pain.
Well she was posting about pain before she left, but what she has been posting about as of 2 weeks ago is more on the line of being free and getting away from things that hurt her. Still depressing things though.
I'm going to repeat something I really want to point out b/c you mentioned how you'd "try" to open up...
Disclosure builds intimacy.
I think the guys she is posting to, well maybe She's reaching out to them b/c...
well, you tell us? More importantly, what can you do to help her open up to you?
maybe try opening up to her without any parental tone, or judgement or agenda.
I plan on just writing to her about how I have realized things that I done wrong and show empathy for her. I will also apologize to her for my side of things, but it won't be in a parental tone or judgement at all. I will just be giving her some insight to how I feel about things now and that is it. I think I will feel better about giving to her. I kind of look at it as farewell in away. She has told me she doesn't want to live on the west coast or be away from family or friends anymore. She quit her job, which she struggle so hard to even get the decent one she dropped. She is spending a ton of time on the phone with other guys, which is exactly how new relationships are in the beginning. She cares very little for any of my family or friends she left behind and it shows because she never reaches out to them.
It breaks my heart that 6 years of my life was wasted on this woman and I shared so many things with her that were meant for the one person who I was to grow old with. She is throwing it all away and not even giving it the chance it deserves. In other words, the letter is like my final detaching phase from her. I will get to clear the air and tell her what's on my mind and then close this chapter and start a new one. I still will not be the one to ask for the divorce, I will leave that ball in her court, but after the letter I will be making all my decisions based on being single. I don't mean that in a bad way to where I'm suddenly going to go out and date and all, but for instance I have a chance to go to Germany for 3 months for work. I will be there all the way up to Christmas and I am not going to wait for her to make a decision, which I was holding back on going because of her. I just feel that I now should be fending for myself and not two people anymore.
Just tell her some things about yourself that are authentic, including fears and things Unrelated to the m.
Just an idea...and if you get to that EE workshop I think you'll learn a lot about this.
I'm not sure what the EE workshop is?
Real quick update, my wife just text me and wants to talk..... I am not sure what it means, but I have a strong feeling that it isn't good. I am calling her as soon as I'm done typing so I can get it over with. I will hope to keep level headed, which I am sure I will do, but there are things that I really want to say to her. I was hoping to send her my letter before she ever wanted to do this, so is kind of taking that one thing I wanted to do away from me I feel. I was really wanting to get my thoughts organized before we had this talk.
If you think you are going to get upset and say something detrimental you can always tell her you need a break and you'll call back.
OK, so come to find out it would have been the right thing to continue to try to talk to her. It was the wrong idea to pull away in this manner. I guess I live and learn and should have listen to my gut on this one. She basically thought that I wasn't wanting to talk to her and I thought the same thing about her not wanting to talk to me. She still maintains that she wasn't ignoring me and that she was just having super weird awake hours because she was not sleeping and then crying all night and sleeping all day then feeling like crap and repeating it. That being said I saw the phone records and can see what was really happening towards the end anyway, but she still hasn't mentioned that to me. I really really want to bring it up too, but I didn't. I remained calm the entire time we talked with only one time raising my voice a little to get through to her.
She is still very negative about being on west coast and that is her biggest obstacle right now, which is a big one. She maintains the fear of things not changing and her not being fully happy if she moves back in with me because she will be away from family and friends. She is also very adamant about not wanting kids, which I still think is a lie, but that was the one reason I had to raise my voice because she wasn't listening to me and was telling me what I thought.
I told her I have the same fears she does about things not changing and she brought up again, would I be afraid of her just running off again. That's a tricky one for me because the answer is yes of course, but she acted weird towards that last time. This time I told her no, not really because if we decided to work things out then I would be more concerned about how our communication was with each other and working on the relationship to be thinking about that, which is actually true.
She was much more emotional and did break down and start crying and said she doesn't want to do it any more over and over again. What she meant by that is she wants a divorce. When we first started talking I told her that I wanted to write her because I felt I cold better organize my thoughts that way. I told her that I was pretty confused on things and there were so many thoughts going on in my head that it was hard for me to even speak about things. She said it was fine to write to her. We had a lot of discussion about the things that hurt her and how she felt ugly to me and things that were red flags. I was able to open up to her better and explain my stance on those things. She understands it better, but it's nothing we can fix and its hindsight now. Wished I would have told her those things then. I said I did too. This is also an issue of she hears me saying this stuff now, but how does she know that there will be real change.
I mentioned to her that I don't want our old relationship back and I want a new one. She asked what that would look like. I said better communication, me being home, making her family a priority to go visit among a few other things. She is still afraid of it only changing for a short time then going back to the way it was and then stressed again that she doesn't want to live on the west coast, she actually stressed this a lot.
She asked me if separation ever crossed my mind. She also was considering it the same as divorce. I told her of course it was a thought of a possible out come, but it wasn't something I considered to do. She told me that it wasn't something she also considered until just recently. I am thinking that my lack of communication had something to do with that unfortunately. She mentioned also in the beginning of the conversation that she had called me to tell me something (that she wanted a divorce), but now she wasn't sure. Then again at the end of the conversation after some stronger emotions came out and she cried she was talking of not wanting to do it any more and divorce is the answer.
I talked to her about red flags that I seen from her like her almost suicidal depression and the fact that she wanted to postpone the marriage in the beginning. She said that we should have talked about future things to see if we had plans that would match up, but of course I was the fool that never really talked about things and just felt that things would work themselves out. Obviously that was the wrong way of going about it and I know that. The one thing she isn't seeing is the fact that I have always been there for her through all of her ups and downs and issues that she has. I would have never come to her conclusion of leaving, but she is blind to anything good right now I think.
I found it interesting that she asked about the book I was reading again and I gave her the same answer. It seemed to bother her and she said fine then I don't need to know. She did ask if it was some Christian book that told me how to be a good husband. It was a very direct question so I did answer that and told her no, not even close. Oh one other thing is she is vaping, which she knows I don't like. She is doing it to get her cannabis oil for her back and episodes she says, but such an odd thing to want to do. Especially when she had stopped smoking before I met her and was so happy her parents stopped smoking too. I am pretty sure vaping is worse for you. It's also a big turn off for me....
At the end of the conversation I told her there were things that I did know and I was solid on. I said that she was the love of my life, she has my heart and I picked her for a reason and I know that she loves me too. I told her that I was truly sorry for hurting her, which she told me she has forgiven me for it. I told her that I don't want a divorce and that I don't want the old relationship back and I wanted a new one. I said that if we make it through this or marriage will be that much stronger for it. I said it breaks my heart that it has come to this after all we had been through together. The fact that we both still love each other deserves a chance to fight for our marriage. The last thing I said is I wouldn't have any part of a divorce.
After getting off the phone I text her for a bit, just talking and not about the relationship. It felt good to text her more normally after the phone call. I still have a very unsure feeling about the whole as do I think she does too. That being said, she finally did talk about divorce, but at the same time she finally said she still loved me. It was kind of left up in the air st this point as to what to do next. I guess the gist of the conversation is.
1. She really doesn't want to live on the west coast.
2. Doesn't want to leave her family and friends.
3. Doesn't want kids.
4. Afraid of me not really changing and it going back to normal a year or two from now.
5. She doesn't really see a future with us anymore.
6. She sees the only thing happening other then getting a divorce is her moving back to West Coast and never truly being happy because being away from her friends and family.
7. Brought up a few times about me never wanting to live on the east coast too. I did tell her that it was a decision we would have to make together. (I don't really answer this question because I don't really believe it is the issue and I think that she can be happy on the west coast if other changes happened)
I mentioned again wanting to go to see Michelle in Colorado. She is against it, but said "FINE LETS GO TO F'ING COLORADO TO DO THIS COUNSELING IF IT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER!! I THINK IT'S A WASTE OF F'ING MONEY!!" I calmly told her I wouldn't say it's a waste of money if it is working on us. I thought it would be healthy for both of us. She kept repeating that if it doesn't get the results I want, which is her to move back and continue with our marriage, then it's a waste of money. I told her I'm not wanting to try to swindle her with it and I want her to go with an open heart and mind. She says she still doesn't see it helping because she has already made up her mind. This is when I mentioned it being good for both of us because if anything it would give us some kind of closure rather it is one way or the other. She has had bad experiences with counseling before so she is making up her mind about it before she has even experienced it. I also said that I think she has never truly been happy with herself and it would be a good thing for both of us to go through.
I know that is kind of just thrown together, but it was a lot said and I my brain is on over drive, so I wanting to type as much as I could down to get something out before I forget things.
What does everyone think about me taking her to see Michelle or at least doing the phone coaching?
I don't see much hope for this relationship and I still really love her, but she her less attractively more and more we go through this if that makes sense.
I am still thinking of writing the letter, but I wonder if I should really put all my thoughts that I have into it. I will post up here for you guys to decide.
One last thing I wanted to point out when I talked to her and when I told her about the things I did know and was solid on I was very calm and direct when I said it. I wasn't a blubbering idiot and emotional at all. I was confident when I said. So no begging or pleading going on. Just telling her what I believed in and wanted.
OK, so come to find out it would have been the right thing to continue to try to talk to her. It was the wrong idea to pull away in this manner. I guess I live and learn and should have listen to my gut on this one. She basically thought that I wasn't wanting to talk to her and I thought the same thing about her not wanting to talk to me.
I still dont see why it was the wrong thing. Because she didnt like it? So what? The point isnt to do everything you can to make her happy. I think, you pulling away drew her in to see what you were doing - that sounds like the RIGHT thing.
OK, so come to find out it would have been the right thing to continue to try to talk to her. It was the wrong idea to pull away in this manner. I guess I live and learn and should have listen to my gut on this one. She basically thought that I wasn't wanting to talk to her and I thought the same thing about her not wanting to talk to me.
I still dont see why it was the wrong thing. Because she didnt like it? So what? The point isnt to do everything you can to make her happy. I think, you pulling away drew her in to see what you were doing - that sounds like the RIGHT thing.
Well we are now talking about divorce and that wasn't a thing until recently. She said she would text me to see how I would respond and if I would talk to her. What I gathered from her talking about this was that it helped bring on the talk of divorce.
I agree with Kaizen. You had a wife that walked out and was not talking to you, at least not about anything substantive. You fought this at every level. You finally did what everyone was telling you and she was immediately reaching out to you and then initiated a relationship talk with you where you both communicated at a level that sounds like you never did before. How could you possibly see that as anything other than this process working?
Do you think that pulling away made her want to divorce you? No, she was already thinking that. The only difference is that your actions caused her to want to discuss this with you.
I brought up your job to you a while ago because that seems like the biggest impediment here. What is more important to you, your job or your wife? The West Coast or your wife? I too live on the West Coast. Have for a long time now. Have also lived on the East Coast and in Europe. Guess what, life doesn't end if you live elsewhere.
I had the "dream job" that kept me from moving with my H when he started medical school. Guess what, that was the beginning of the end for us. I finally left that job and am much happier now. Don't lose your wife because of a job unless you don't care that much about her.
You may not see this as a big deal, but you leave her to nothing and are gone for long periods of time. Guess what, plane tickets aren't that expensive. Find a way to make this work. Don't discount her feelings. Sounds like she is a bit of a delicate flower with the health issues. She probably needs the support of friends and family.
You have some serious decisions to make. Stop insisting on what things were when you first met. None of that is relevant anymore. Make your decision on whether you want her in your life.
You have some work to do now. Work with a DB coach to talk about how to expand on what has happened here. Don't go back to mundane discussions about cable bills. Your talk above sounds like you could have validated better, but on the whole it sounds like you communicated better with her than you have in the past. Keep it going!!
Well we are now talking about divorce and that wasn't a thing until recently.
I promise that it wasnt the absence of conversations like this:
Here is the conversation we had via text.
ME: I was wondering if you could think of anything else that we should put in the garden.
W: I'll have to think about it, but nothing comes to mind yet.
ME: Im at Home Depo right now to buy a couple things and I'm looking at the outdoors stuff.
W: Now's the time to get it before the prices go up too much.
ME: The outdoors stuff? I was looking at fire pits, seating and tables which we don't need right now of course.
W: Yea that stuff
ME: Yeah like you said we don't need to be spending money right now. It's just fun looking at the stuff too and sometimes they have some unique things that are only there for a short time.
W: Yes it's fun to look
ME: Just don't need it, like you said it's time to save money.
I was trying to get her to engage in some talk of us, but she wouldn't engage at all with it. At this point she just changed the subject. This brings me my next group of text messages with her and me not understanding what the point is in ignoring what I'm saying completely and not giving me a simple answer of yes or no. Her change up in conversation came as.
W: When are you going to Alaska?
ME: Tomorrow. (She should know because I already sent her my itinerary and I made me want to say think why does it matter to her and why does she care)
W: I thought it was soon.
ME: OK........ (I was wanting to say other things, but I refrained and this is what I typed)
W: I was just asking
At this point in time I wanted to ask the big question of why does it matter to you, but I didn't want to go down that path so I held off for about hour and a half before texting back.
ME: Sorry I just got out of the shower and I was playing music while doing things around the house so I got distracted.
ME: Anyway, Alaska is so beautiful!! I think everyone should experience it once in their lifetime!
W: The pictured look nice
ME: The pictures of Alaska?
W: Yes...I look at pictures of Alaska and other places
ME: It's something else to see no matter what time of year, especially the glaciers.
W: Yeah looks lovely!
ME: Yes! You should see it!!
W: One day I will!!
ME: My offer still stands of coming out and staying while Im there. smile
Then nothing, but crickets coming from my wife as if I didn't say anything at all.
that was what was keeping her from using the D word.
Also, Im curious, what would really change in your life right now if you were divorced instead of just separated? I find the fear is much worse than the reality. Not saying that you should want to get divorced. Im just saying that it's just another word. A status update you make to the government. For all intents and purposes, youre already divorced.
Look for her actions, not her words. She initiated a talk about your relationship because she feels like shes losing you. I recommend you stop reassuring her that she isnt.
Cali08
I'll post more about whether you "wasted" 6 years of your life with a woman you won't grow old with.
TRUST me - if that is how you see giving love to someone who does not always love you back the way you want, then a lot of us have wasted our lives.
For now my point is this - you keep acting as if your w "should" want to live on the west coast and be away from all of her family. You seem to think it's not as big a deal as she's making it to be, b/c once upon a time she seemed fine with it.
She's not fine with it. She has her reasons but She has not been fine with it for a long time.
You refuse to move back east. You have your reasons. But it's still true. You refuse to move near her family. And the job you choose to have, makes you travel a lot.
You're baffled that she cannot see how much you love her. AND you're angry that she won't cave in.
Add in the reality that she has significant medical (depression) problems.
So pulling HER away from her support system is demanding more than she can give. Period.
Her family & friends see this much more clearly than you do. Many of them probably find your position untenable. Saying it's her "duty" to join you is soooo not persuasive and frankly, it just ignores HER needs.
You won't budge.
So all the words in the world, and all the insights you have, which I believe you do have,
have not moved you to change your original position.
So the stumbling block for her to really feel loved and safe, remains.
Only you can remove it, but you won't.
Sorry Cali08 I think you are a very well meaning guy. But there's a stubbornness to your position that is unfathomable.
I believe you could have moved for her and yes, even taken a pay cut, and God forbid, worst case scenario LOSE the profit on the house or even lose the house.
For her.
But to keep demanding that she move back west when she feels it's obviously unhealthy for her to move west, is not defensible to me.
Originally I thought she just hated it there and was lonely. After 35 years of m and a slightly similar vein, I felt you were simply selfish and justifying that with your financial arguments. Just as my h insisted and seemed to believe that the ONLY Place he could earn the big bucks (much more important to him than to me, anyhow)
was Alaska and he had to get what he wanted...at all costs...and he hides from how much damage he has inflicted on our children and me and our family. Yes it's very selfish no matter how many times he would say it was for the family (money).
But your wife is sick. Her illness ebbs and flows. In her illness, which you knew of before you married her, one of the key essentials for improvement is an attentive support system.
I'm Sorry. Maybe it's too late, I don't know.
But you skimmed over the one threshold assumption through out this process, the one impasse you both had, b/c you simply do not want to lose the job and whatever goes with keeping it.
Your wife cannot move west to be with you. You want that to change OR you think she can just deal.
At what cost? I mean would you really want her out there alone so much, so sad,
risking... what?
** A WAW on this board did take her life. If you ever find "9lives" thread around here (if it's still up), you'll see that sometimes someone feels trapped and miserable
enough to leave the planet.
I'll never forget that. In 9's case, the warning signs were not as clear as in yours.
But I'm no expert. I have not accompanied her in her episodes as you have.
My guess is that your w has a disease that is best treated with a support system and loved ones. You cannot provide on the west coast.
Maybe she's just trying to survive.
I agree with Kaizen. You had a wife that walked out and was not talking to you, at least not about anything substantive. You fought this at every level. You finally did what everyone was telling you and she was immediately reaching out to you and then initiated a relationship talk with you where you both communicated at a level that sounds like you never did before. How could you possibly see that as anything other than this process working?
Do you think that pulling away made her want to divorce you? No, she was already thinking that. The only difference is that your actions caused her to want to discuss this with you.
I can see how it is forcing things. I guess I was just thinking it wouldn't fast forward things to make a decision about actually divorcing. At least that is how I perceived it to some degree.
I brought up your job to you a while ago because that seems like the biggest impediment here. What is more important to you, your job or your wife? The West Coast or your wife? I too live on the West Coast. Have for a long time now. Have also lived on the East Coast and in Europe. Guess what, life doesn't end if you live elsewhere.
I had the "dream job" that kept me from moving with my H when he started medical school. Guess what, that was the beginning of the end for us. I finally left that job and am much happier now. Don't lose your wife because of a job unless you don't care that much about her.
My job isn't more important than my wife and it never has been, but I have always been the one who has supported us with the money I make from it. Quite honestly until she recently got a much better paying job we really needed me to keep that job so we could keep our house. I could actually live anywhere in the US other than Hawaii and Alaska with my current job. I personally don't really think my job has ever been the real issue I feel that living on the west coast hasn't been the real issue either. The more I go through this the more I feel that my wife is a depressed individual and and has been lost for a long time. I am sure she will find herself having the same issues sooner or later when the fun of being home wears off. When her friends start going back to their normal lives that don't include her in them and her parents want her to move out and she has to get a job again.
You may not see this as a big deal, but you leave her to nothing and are gone for long periods of time. Guess what, plane tickets aren't that expensive. Find a way to make this work. Don't discount her feelings. Sounds like she is a bit of a delicate flower with the health issues. She probably needs the support of friends and family.
You have some serious decisions to make. Stop insisting on what things were when you first met. None of that is relevant anymore. Make your decision on whether you want her in your life.
You have some work to do now. Work with a DB coach to talk about how to expand on what has happened here. Don't go back to mundane discussions about cable bills. Your talk above sounds like you could have validated better, but on the whole it sounds like you communicated better with her than you have in the past. Keep it going!!
Well we are now talking about divorce and that wasn't a thing until recently.
I promise that it wasnt the absence of conversations like this:
Here is the conversation we had via text.
ME: I was wondering if you could think of anything else that we should put in the garden.
W: I'll have to think about it, but nothing comes to mind yet.
ME: Im at Home Depo right now to buy a couple things and I'm looking at the outdoors stuff.
W: Now's the time to get it before the prices go up too much.
ME: The outdoors stuff? I was looking at fire pits, seating and tables which we don't need right now of course.
W: Yea that stuff
ME: Yeah like you said we don't need to be spending money right now. It's just fun looking at the stuff too and sometimes they have some unique things that are only there for a short time.
W: Yes it's fun to look
ME: Just don't need it, like you said it's time to save money.
I was trying to get her to engage in some talk of us, but she wouldn't engage at all with it. At this point she just changed the subject. This brings me my next group of text messages with her and me not understanding what the point is in ignoring what I'm saying completely and not giving me a simple answer of yes or no. Her change up in conversation came as.
W: When are you going to Alaska?
ME: Tomorrow. (She should know because I already sent her my itinerary and I made me want to say think why does it matter to her and why does she care)
W: I thought it was soon.
ME: OK........ (I was wanting to say other things, but I refrained and this is what I typed)
W: I was just asking
At this point in time I wanted to ask the big question of why does it matter to you, but I didn't want to go down that path so I held off for about hour and a half before texting back.
ME: Sorry I just got out of the shower and I was playing music while doing things around the house so I got distracted.
ME: Anyway, Alaska is so beautiful!! I think everyone should experience it once in their lifetime!
W: The pictured look nice
ME: The pictures of Alaska?
W: Yes...I look at pictures of Alaska and other places
ME: It's something else to see no matter what time of year, especially the glaciers.
W: Yeah looks lovely!
ME: Yes! You should see it!!
W: One day I will!!
ME: My offer still stands of coming out and staying while Im there. smile
Then nothing, but crickets coming from my wife as if I didn't say anything at all.
that was what was keeping her from using the D word.
Im not to clear on what you are referring to that was keeping her from using the D word? Are you just referring to how I was texting her or what I was specifically saying to her in the texts. Why would that keep her from using the D word?Also, Im curious, what would really change in your life right now if you were divorced instead of just separated? I find the fear is much worse than the reality. Not saying that you should want to get divorced. Im just saying that it's just another word. A status update you make to the government. For all intents and purposes, youre already divorced.
I agree and I really am not afraid of the word. I think the one thing that I would be worried about is her trying to screw me over in some way and trying to get money out of me that I can't afford to pay her, especially now that I am back to one income. I would be really terrible to not only lose my wife, but my house that I have worked so hard for. Look for her actions, not her words. She initiated a talk about your relationship because she feels like shes losing you. I recommend you stop reassuring her that she isnt.
She did initiate a talk, which I tried to do many times with her before and she pretty much made it difficult to do so. I find it a bit odd though if she feels she is losing me than why would she call me with the one purpose of saying she wants a divorce?It would be quite an easy thing for me to stop reassuring her that she isn't losing me, but I am not clear if that is the right thing to do in my situation.
Cali08
I'll post more about whether you "wasted" 6 years of your life with a woman you won't grow old with.
TRUST me - if that is how you see giving love to someone who does not always love you back the way you want, then a lot of us have wasted our lives.
For now my point is this - you keep acting as if your w "should" want to live on the west coast and be away from all of her family. You seem to think it's not as big a deal as she's making it to be, b/c once upon a time she seemed fine with it.
She's not fine with it. She has her reasons but She has not been fine with it for a long time.
You refuse to move back east. You have your reasons. But it's still true. You refuse to move near her family. And the job you choose to have, makes you travel a lot.
You seem to think that I once lived on the East Coast, but that couldn't be further from the truth. When I first met my wife she talked about always wanting to live on the West Coast and in particularly where we live in California. She was actually planning on moving before we were an item of any sort. It just worked out well for her meeting me and being able to do it with the person she supposedly loved. I have never out right refused to move near her family, but I don't think that is the real issue or do I think living on the West Coast being the issue either. As long as I have known her, with her ADHD, she has never been able to stay happy with anything for to long. It's a matter of fact that she used to say she would get easily bored with people, but she would say I was the only one she has never felt that way with. A very interesting statement indeed, it's funny how the more I have to think on things the more things come up that I have just forgot about or put no real importance too since it wasn't of any concern then.
You're baffled that she cannot see how much you love her. AND you're angry that she won't cave in.
Add in the reality that she has significant medical (depression) problems.
So pulling HER away from her support system is demanding more than she can give. Period.
Her family & friends see this much more clearly than you do. Many of them probably find your position untenable. Saying it's her "duty" to join you is soooo not persuasive and frankly, it just ignores HER needs.
Maybe to paint another picture of things here, which I never felt it was important to mention before, but she is black and I am white. We come from different cultures for sure, but she has always been in alignment with me on many many topics. Her parents had almost arguments with her on things that she didn't agree with them on, which I had nothing to do with at all. She made up her own mind on everything and I never expected or asked her to have all the same views as myself. It's sad to say, but I know that her parents didn't like my political stance on some things and got kind of angry at hers at the same time. Her friends also have differing views and I know that seemed to weigh on her because she felt she should have the same views as them. Such a horrible thing to get in the way of a marriage and I don't believe that it should, but in my case it seems it didn't help at all and believe me when I tell you I am not a very political person and I really try to stay away from the stuff.
You won't budge.
So all the words in the world, and all the insights you have, which I believe you do have,
have not moved you to change your original position.
So the stumbling block for her to really feel loved and safe, remains.
Only you can remove it, but you won't.
Sorry Cali08 I think you are a very well meaning guy. But there's a stubbornness to your position that is unfathomable.
I admit it. I have always been stubborn, but I am willing to do things right and make a new relationship between us if I could get the chance to do so, but she isn't giving me options. Doing something like quitting my job and moving to the East Coast isn't a practical decision at this point in time. I know this is vice versa for her, but she can always just run back to mom and dads house, I don't have the same luxury as her unfortunately.
I believe you could have moved for her and yes, even taken a pay cut, and God forbid, worst case scenario LOSE the profit on the house or even lose the house.
For her.
But to keep demanding that she move back west when she feels it's obviously unhealthy for her to move west, is not defensible to me.
Originally I thought she just hated it there and was lonely. After 35 years of m and a slightly similar vein, I felt you were simply selfish and justifying that with your financial arguments. Just as my h insisted and seemed to believe that the ONLY Place he could earn the big bucks (much more important to him than to me, anyhow)
was Alaska and he had to get what he wanted...at all costs...and he hides from how much damage he has inflicted on our children and me and our family. Yes it's very selfish no matter how many times he would say it was for the family (money).
Not as easy as me just losing the house and job and moving to the East Coast. She lives in an area that is just as expensive as where I live now and probably a little more. Moving to the East Coast would leave us both in a much worse situation then coming back to an established place that we own and doing it right the second time around. Like I said above I think a ton of the issues she was having are easily dealt with and I wish I would have put more effort it is the first time, but hindsight is always better.
But your wife is sick. Her illness ebbs and flows. In her illness, which you knew of before you married her, one of the key essentials for improvement is an attentive support system.
I'm Sorry. Maybe it's too late, I don't know.
But you skimmed over the one threshold assumption through out this process, the one impasse you both had, b/c you simply do not want to lose the job and whatever goes with keeping it.
Your wife cannot move west to be with you. You want that to change OR you think she can just deal.
At what cost? I mean would you really want her out there alone so much, so sad,
risking... what?
** A WAW on this board did take her life. If you ever find "9lives" thread around here (if it's still up), you'll see that sometimes someone feels trapped and miserable
enough to leave the planet.
I'll never forget that. In 9's case, the warning signs were not as clear as in yours.
But I'm no expert. I have not accompanied her in her episodes as you have.
My guess is that your w has a disease that is best treated with a support system and loved ones. You cannot provide on the west coast.
Maybe she's just trying to survive.
Maybe she is just trying to survive. I guess she will find out if she can do it on her own. I know I wasn't the best at being home, but I was always supporting her and my family supported her, in a lot of ways, more than her actual family does and that is a sad truth.
So an update since my divorce conversation with her on the last day before I left Alaska to come home.
She has been reaching out to me more often and talking to me pretty normally and our conversations seem a lot more warm in general. Instead of her two to three words answers and it being like pulling teeth to make conversation with her she is actually talking to me like we are friends and keeping the conversation going. Even when she falls asleep she will continue with me after she wakes up and tells me a lot of what she is doing. Before she wouldn't tell me anything at all that she was up too. The conversations actually go pretty long and constant and late into the night too. Her reaction time is ten times faster then it was before.
She even has reached out to one of my little cousins who looked to my wife a lot like an older sister. My cousin has been pretty hurt by what my wife has done, for one, recently her father pretty much abandoned her and her sisters along with their mother in a recent divorce. My cousin told me it just feels like exactly what her dad did to her. Anyway my wife reached out to her, but it was kind of odd with how she started it out. She started the text out with "I don't know what your cousin(ME) or your Aunt(my mother) has told you, but I am sorry I left so suddenly. I really do miss and love you and I want you to know you can reach out to me anytime you would like." My cousin was nice to her, but didn't really know how to talk to her so she just said thank you. I feel bad for my little cousin because my wife and her had a ton in common and she was someone who was a stable person in her life right now. It is what it is I guess.
My mother actually had about a 5 min conversation with her today, which she said was much more warm than normal although my mom was the one that reached out to her. It a matter of fact I am currently texting back and forth with her right now and it 2 am her time, which is a very odd thing for her to be doing according to how she was acting and texting towards me before.
This marks the first time she has reached out to anyone on her own accord. My family has been reaching out to her a lot and continue to do so even though she barely responds to them. I told them it is fine to do as long as you are just letting her know you care about her and miss her without pushing anything about our marriage on her. I am not investing anything into her behavior other than it has changed it seems and she is warmer towards me too, but that is all I take it for. How would you guys take this change in her behavior?
I am still contemplating taking her to Colorado for go through a 2 day course with Michelle, that is if it is even doable money wise. She said she would do it just to appease me, but thinks it is a waste of time and money since she has already made up her mind about things. I told her I think that it would actually be healthy for both of us regardless what the outcome is. That being said if you guys can give me a very non biased view on doing the coaching with her in Colorado I would appreciate it.
One last thought I had. My wife has always gotten rid of things and said it makes her feel better to do it. Like as soon as she moved back in with her parents and right before she left my house she got rid of a lot of things. I was just thinking that I was the ultimate shedding of things to help her feel better. Along with the West Coast and my family as something to shed to make her feel better. Anyway I thought it was an interesting thought and it made sense to me.
Oh and I am also thinking on sending my mother in-law some flowers for mothers day with a note. Something along the lines of apologizing for anything hurt I have put her through and not being the best son in-law that I could have been and wishing that we would have come to visit much more than I have. Is that a bad idea? It honestly has nothing to do with my wife and what we are going through, but my wife has painted a picture that I didn't wish for my mother in-law to have of me, so I wanted to tell her I realize that I could have done better and I am sorry that I didn't.
if you somehow "manage" to get her to return to the West Coast,
you will not have resolved the underlying issues in her OR in you. This stubborn streak is very concerning to me.
Here is what my h said before his FIRST Crisis.
He kept wanting to return to Alaska where IN MY EYES there was nothing for MY career and no family or life long friends near (and I'm an extrovert, so yes I made new ones, but it's not the same). It was not the urban area I'd need and the one "urban" area is a small city/big town by US standards.
Oh, and it had brutal winters, incredibly far from my people, there were lousy schools for the kids, and the people were the least friendly I'd ever met in 9 moves...(Hermits??)
I could go on. Mind you, I loved parts of it. But the pressure to remain their forever was a real drag.
But to hear h tell it, I was "irrational" to not want to return. Like it my reasons were all emotional AND as if that was not a "good" reasons. Mind you, we had lived there 3 years and btw, the kids did not want to stay either.
HIS claimed reasons were all work related (which I don't believe were true, in retrospect, but its' what his arguments were)
But as an MD, it was not I who was irrational to want to avoid going back, it was h for not being able to do his thing anywhere else. He could/can go into any state and most countries and do his work.
So his reasons could not have been what he listed, - he's an MD,
but rather, 1) b/c he LIKED it there, and thought that should be enough bc
he was...him...But he knew how that "sounded" so he pretended it was rational and practical and really all work/money/practicality related,
and 2) I think his stubborn obsession was also partly b/c he had never been denied anything in our marriage before...or as he put it "never failed at anything".
Yet in HIS eyes, I was irrational, "not practical"...
in every MC's eyes he was either selfish, acting single, a bit obsessed and all 4 said stubborn (we went to 4)
10 years later, I'm near my family, but would have been willing to live in 47 of the 50 states for him...
and he's up there. Who "won"?
get out of your own way - Stop making this about how your reasons are better & more "practical!" Your wife isn't well. She has serious medical issues.
She needs even more of a support system (her family and friends) than most women her age, and you still refuse to see that. You cannot provide that. Period.
Cali, let me just add this...when my W was MEDEVAC'd from Afghanistan, I found the next C-17 flight to Germany and spent almost two weeks with her there at the hospital. And then when they determined she couldn't go back downrange and had to go home, they wouldn't let me fly with her. I had to beg my way into a spare seat on a C-5. Then I spent several weeks with her in and out of doctor's appointments before I had to return to work. I went back to work on the opposite side of the country and my boss said "wtf are you doing here, go be with your wife!" and he helped me get permanently reassigned to the other side of the country to be with her. When it became apparent that this was a long-term illness and that she might lose her job, that I might be deployed for 8+ months leaving her home alone in a strange city with medical problems and no support network, I decided...fùck it. So I found a way to leave active duty and get a job near her family so we could have a support network. It wasn't a perfect solution and I didn't necessarily do it all the right way -- there's more to the story but that's not the point here. In the end I didn't have to go through with it because she started to get better, but we came close.
It sounds like you need to do the same, or at least do some research and look around for other opportunities near your wife and her family. What would her reaction be even if you simply mentioned you were looking for other jobs? The mere fact that you try may mean a lot, even if you don't end up leaving your job.
But I will say this...I love my job (well, the job I had before I got this damn desk). It's one of the coolest jobs ever. They make movies about the stuff you poor tax payers pay me to do! It's awesome. But there's one thing I've had multiple different COs tell me over the years..."The military is great, but after you do your 20 years and retire, all you'll have left is your family, so take care of them first."
I was willing to walk away from a dream job for love. Are you?
Hi Cali
It is great that you and your wife are on talking grounds. At least at the moment she can have a friend in you. Unfortunately I think your wife has her Fantasies of love and happiness and somehow very confused of what she wants. I don't know how much depressed she is but yes staying close to her support system is important. Nevertheless I don't think you should quit your good paying job at the moment. Take things gradual see how your relationship progress.look for options. As you said you can work from anywhere in the US so it will not matter . Make your resting time in the east coast for the time being. Don't take irrational decision now and rush. Start spending time maybe taking leaves. In my opinion don't push for MC. Try to be her friend but let her figure things out too. From your writings I feel she keeps thinking there is something better somewhere else . Like she is lost and looking for happiness. Give her time to mature and find what makes her happy.
Take your time and don't rush into fast decisions discuss options with her gradually to see what she would like but for the time being let her stay at her parents and make sure you spend your vacations close to her if possible.
Later on what ever the consequence is you will feel better with your self that you tried.Nothing is guaranteed .
I know you think I dance around the elephant in the room, but I truly don't think being on the West Coast is the real issue at all. She seems to be looking for things she thinks I won't bend on to throw monkey wrenches in our relationship. She has personal depression to deal with and when the fun wears off at home and it becomes normal for her to be there she will still be dealing with all the same issues she had living with me unfortunately. Besides that I have never told her that I absolutely wouldn't move to the East Coast. I just don't dwell on it with her because it's just a cover up for her real issues that she hasn't ever dealt with and what the experts say are fueling her episodes. Past traumatic issues that were never properly dealt with and not to mention her mommy issues. She never had a good relationship with her until she moved away. So no I am not ignoring it, but I truly deep down, and so do others that know her well, think that living with me isn't the real issue.
All that being said, which I have talk to her before about, If we took more trips to see her family more often then she wouldn't feel the same about being on the West Coast away from family. On the other hand, being around my family is at a critical point, which she very well knows and has also mentioned herself. I will soon be the father figure in my niece and nephews life because they are losing theirs and it's not that he is divorcing my sister, but the fact that brother in-law is dying. My wife was also part of that support system for my niece and nephew, but has since skipped out of that. She owes my niece and nephew a very personal call to give a heart to heart with them. It's to the point where we are going to have to let them know that another person is about to leave their life. They are not stupid, but are starting to ask when their aunt is going to come back. My wife on the other hand is only close with her immediate family and none of them are on a very short timeline. My wife told me straight out that she knows that I need to be here for my family at this time.
Again I don't believe simply moving to the East Coast would magically fix any of her issues since it is mainly with herself. I know I could have made things easier, which I would love to remedy, but here we are. I wish moving and quitting my job would fix it, but I think that is just wishful thinking at the best. I wonder why I am suddenly back on the menu as someone to communicate with as of lately. Are her buddies or who ever they are to her not keeping her attention anymore or were they just busy and I was her last option. Like I said I don't really know and I try not to put any stock in why she is talking to me more like a friend or even why she finally reached out to one of my family members on her own at all.
if you somehow "manage" to get her to return to the West Coast,
you will not have resolved the underlying issues in her OR in you. This stubborn streak is very concerning to me.
Here is what my h said before his FIRST Crisis.
He kept wanting to return to Alaska where IN MY EYES there was nothing for MY career and no family or life long friends near (and I'm an extrovert, so yes I made new ones, but it's not the same). It was not the urban area I'd need and the one "urban" area is a small city/big town by US standards.
Oh, and it had brutal winters, incredibly far from my people, there were lousy schools for the kids, and the people were the least friendly I'd ever met in 9 moves...(Hermits??)
I could go on. Mind you, I loved parts of it. But the pressure to remain their forever was a real drag.
But to hear h tell it, I was "irrational" to not want to return. Like it my reasons were all emotional AND as if that was not a "good" reasons. Mind you, we had lived there 3 years and btw, the kids did not want to stay either.
HIS claimed reasons were all work related (which I don't believe were true, in retrospect, but its' what his arguments were)
But as an MD, it was not I who was irrational to want to avoid going back, it was h for not being able to do his thing anywhere else. He could/can go into any state and most countries and do his work.
So his reasons could not have been what he listed, - he's an MD,
but rather, 1) b/c he LIKED it there, and thought that should be enough bc
he was...him...But he knew how that "sounded" so he pretended it was rational and practical and really all work/money/practicality related,
and 2) I think his stubborn obsession was also partly b/c he had never been denied anything in our marriage before...or as he put it "never failed at anything".
Yet in HIS eyes, I was irrational, "not practical"...
in every MC's eyes he was either selfish, acting single, a bit obsessed and all 4 said stubborn (we went to 4)
10 years later, I'm near my family, but would have been willing to live in 47 of the 50 states for him...
and he's up there. Who "won"?
I see your point, but does comparing a place like Alaska to California the same? I am sure you're saying I sound like your husband, but the areas she lived in and where I live in are really close in comparison other then better weather where I am and less traffic. She used to really love it on the West Coast according to her and past conversations we have had. Anyway I see what you're saying and I am thinking on it for sure. I could simply pose the question to her and ask if me moving to the East Coast would be the answer to things. She has told me straight out that it would be impractical for me to do so and lose the house in almost those exact words, but maybe I should pose it again. I think I will just create the next issue to deal with because I still don't think that is the answer.
So tell me, do you think I should ask her if moving there would make a difference?
get out of your own way - Stop making this about how your reasons are better & more "practical!" Your wife isn't well. She has serious medical issues.
She needs even more of a support system (her family and friends) than most women her age, and you still refuse to see that. You cannot provide that. Period.
Cali, let me just add this...when my W was MEDEVAC'd from Afghanistan, I found the next C-17 flight to Germany and spent almost two weeks with her there at the hospital. And then when they determined she couldn't go back downrange and had to go home, they wouldn't let me fly with her. I had to beg my way into a spare seat on a C-5. Then I spent several weeks with her in and out of doctor's appointments before I had to return to work. I went back to work on the opposite side of the country and my boss said "wtf are you doing here, go be with your wife!" and he helped me get permanently reassigned to the other side of the country to be with her. When it became apparent that this was a long-term illness and that she might lose her job, that I might be deployed for 8+ months leaving her home alone in a strange city with medical problems and no support network, I decided...fùck it. So I found a way to leave active duty and get a job near her family so we could have a support network. It wasn't a perfect solution and I didn't necessarily do it all the right way -- there's more to the story but that's not the point here. In the end I didn't have to go through with it because she started to get better, but we came close.
It sounds like you need to do the same, or at least do some research and look around for other opportunities near your wife and her family. What would her reaction be even if you simply mentioned you were looking for other jobs? The mere fact that you try may mean a lot, even if you don't end up leaving your job.
I actually have been looking for jobs and having my mother also help me keep an eye out. I have told her, but it didn't seem to phase her at all and it was as if I didn't even say it.
I have been making lots of changes to make more money while at home even if it's not close to what I need yet, but I am going in that direction the best I can until I can find a job to cover my bills. But I will say this...I love my job (well, the job I had before I got this damn desk). It's one of the coolest jobs ever. They make movies about the stuff you poor tax payers pay me to do! It's awesome. But there's one thing I've had multiple different COs tell me over the years..."The military is great, but after you do your 20 years and retire, all you'll have left is your family, so take care of them first."
I have heard this before and even my father in-law said something about that because he had to deal with my mother in-law just skipping out when ever she wanted too. They are still very dysfunctionally married. I don't think they ever to this day share a bed together and my mother in-law has a best friend that is slightly older than her daughter (my wife). Loves to still party like she is younger still I guess. They are polar opposites, yet even they are able to stick it out together with their extremely rough past ,which our situation pales to in comparison.I was willing to walk away from a dream job for love. Are you?
Hi Cali
It is great that you and your wife are on talking grounds. At least at the moment she can have a friend in you. Unfortunately I think your wife has her Fantasies of love and happiness and somehow very confused of what she wants. I don't know how much depressed she is but yes staying close to her support system is important. Nevertheless I don't think you should quit your good paying job at the moment. Take things gradual see how your relationship progress.look for options. As you said you can work from anywhere in the US so it will not matter . Make your resting time in the east coast for the time being. Don't take irrational decision now and rush. Start spending time maybe taking leaves. In my opinion don't push for MC. Try to be her friend but let her figure things out too. From your writings I feel she keeps thinking there is something better somewhere else . Like she is lost and looking for happiness. Give her time to mature and find what makes her happy.
Take your time and don't rush into fast decisions discuss options with her gradually to see what she would like but for the time being let her stay at her parents and make sure you spend your vacations close to her if possible.
Later on what ever the consequence is you will feel better with your self that you tried.Nothing is guaranteed .
I have tried to spend time with her and around her family, but she doesn't want me there. I spend a large amount of time working very close to her, but she wouldn't come see me and wouldn't invite me to go there. I have also offered to come with me to Alaska and Hawaii to spend time with me, but she completely ignores my invites. It's a good reason why I don't want to move to the East Coast, she still doesn't even want to be around me it seems. I strongly feel like I would be intruding even if I stayed in a hotel near by when I was not working. She makes me feel very unwelcome.
At this point in the process it seems that I am back into limbo again. We haven't talked about the relationship since I was in Alaska. She is talking to me differently when she text me, more like we are friends but that is the only real change. It's been a day since I have last talked to her and the weekend is coming on, so I doubt she will even think of me because she will be distracted with having fun on the weekend. It seems she has gone back to living as if she is a single woman. I am going to wait to see if she actually reaches out to me again. The way it seems to be going is that she reaches out to me then the a day or two goes by then I reach out to her and then it's her turn again. I wonder if she see's this same pattern or if I should keep it going? I am thinking of seeing if she will reach out to me twice in a row all on her own.
more later. (I'm with my youngest for Mother's Day).
The comparison between California and Alaska only highlights my point.
Yes I've lived in both and I greatly prefer California
but who cares?This is more of you "reasoning" about her feelings.
It does not matter where You THINK is best, it matters where SHE FEELS most supported. Her preferences matter more, first, AND second, She's not well. She'll be alone a lot if she's far from her support system. That's what moving back there, means to HER.
Your decision & "Logical arguments" about what
you think is best for her or what
you think will really help HER underlying problems
and that you moving near her family is not really going to fix her underlying problems (
and therefore she should follow you...??? 
)
or how you believe her symptoms are going to be best treated, away from her family and with you,
are just you don't get to decide. You don't seem to see how your bias is self serving either. But her family does. That was the part^^ that reminded me of my h. He didn't respect my preferences and even though I had great "reasons" for my preferences, I don't think that was the threshold consideration. Why weren't my feelings important enough?
As I said, and mean this literally & with all my heart - if he'd wanted to live in a state that did not have the letter "A" in it, and he really felt that way for real (however neurotic a reason he had)
I would have accepted that.
I'd have STFU and moved to Mississippi, Ohio, Oregon, New Mexico....
catch my drift?
it's not about who has the "best" reasons
(which apparently you get to decide)
it's about putting her emotional well being and HER wants, ahead of your own.
more later. (I'm with my youngest for Mother's Day).
The comparison between California and Alaska only highlights my point.
Yes I've lived in both and I greatly prefer California
but who cares?This is more of you "reasoning" about her feelings.
It does not matter where You THINK is best, it matters where SHE FEELS most supported. Her preferences matter more, first, AND second, She's not well. She'll be alone a lot if she's far from her support system. That's what moving back there, means to HER.
Your decision & "Logical arguments" about what
you think is best for her or what
you think will really help HER underlying problems
and that you moving near her family is not really going to fix her underlying problems (
and therefore she should follow you...??? )
or how you believe her symptoms are going to be best treated, away from her family and with you,
are just you don't get to decide. You don't seem to see how your bias is self serving either. But her family does. That was the part^^ that reminded me of my h. He didn't respect my preferences and even though I had great "reasons" for my preferences, I don't think that was the threshold consideration. Why weren't my feelings important enough?
As I said, and mean this literally & with all my heart - if he'd wanted to live in a state that did not have the letter "A" in it, and he really felt that way for real (however neurotic a reason he had)
I would have accepted that.
I'd have STFU and moved to Mississippi, Ohio, Oregon, New Mexico....
catch my drift?
it's not about who has the "best" reasons
(which apparently you get to decide)
it's about putting her emotional well being and HER wants, ahead of your own.
Happy Mothers Day! I spent all day with my family today to celebrate mothers day early, so we can miss the crowds tomorrow. I hope you had a good day! Thanks for taking the time out on your special day to write a response. My situation seems to hit home with you.
I had no doubt what your reaction to what I said was going to be and I can see why you say it. I am not dumb to what I am saying at all and how it can look. Still with the idea that moving to VA where she is at will not be a fix to the problems we have, because I think a lot of the problems we have are more about her not being happy with herself.
I am being selfish to want to continue to keep the house I work hard to buy and most of the work I done in the house was so that she could move into it. We did a lot to this house together and I am reminded of her just being in it. I also think that the issues she had with being in CA could easily be fixed, which I wish I would have done differently before hand. Even talking to her about the issue of her living here she said that it would have made a difference if changes had been made. So yes, I suppose we are both being selfish. I come to think of it being much more practical to stay in CA then trying to move in with her parents in VA.
I still think I want to pose the question of moving to VA and see what she thinks of that, but I honestly think she will have another reason to not want that. I feel she poses it as a problem because she feels it is something that I won't do, so it gives her a reason why things won't work. I feel it is a bit of a game on her part. I really don't feel like it is the time to ask right now though.
We seem to be getting along much better when we text now, which is an odd feeling for me. She last reached out to me on Wednesday and she reached out again today after seeing family pictures being posted up by my mom. I was wondering if she would be the one to reach out again or not. Actually out of the last 4 times I have talked to her she has been the one to initiate the text 3 of those times. Her attitude is completely different when talking to her. She is very friendly and light in the conversation and asks questions about things and keep the conversation going by ending with questions. She even is putting lots of punctuation and smiley faces and laughing in the texts too. She even ended this text message with good night and sweet dreams.
Now that she seems to be texting me more often and initiating it, should I return by initiating text too? This seems like the time that I should be working on being a friend to her and maybe making the texting a two way street as far as initiating goes. Or should I continue to detach and just let her be the one to text me and initiate conversation? I was thinking about things while talking to her tonight and I had sure I said good night first. Should I a little more mysterious and cut the texting off earlier? Tonight she didn't text me until about 10 her time and then we text back and forth until about 2 am her time. I was actually really shocked that she contacted me on a Saturday night in the first place. She told me she had even left the house all day and was just doing some online classes and that was it.
I have some goals that I hope I can finally get started on now that I am not crazy busy since I have been home. One is to finish reading the DR book and the second one is to write the letter that I want to send to her and have you guys help me critique it.
Curious if anyone has ever written a letter to their ex or WAW before and how did it go. I feel right now that is will be the best way for me to communicate with my wife. I think a letter will ensure that she will read it all in its entirety without disruptions and get her to think about thinks. I am actually sitting down today to write such a letter. Any advice on it would help. I still plan on posting it up for review by you guys. I know it can't be to personal for rules of the website, so hopefully Im not violating any rules by doing it.
keep it short. How would the marriage be different than before? Be specific. Address HER concerns about the m.
keep it short. How would the marriage be different than before? Be specific. Address HER concerns about the m.
Keeping it short is the hard part. I have so many things going through my head and I want to say. I think I'm going to have to get things out and then start weeding things out might be the best way.
she will NOT hear what you say if you get too wordy. She will tune out huge chunks and hone in on what she fears or wants to hear (depending on her agenda and openness)
and neither is your goal.
Your goal is to express yourself, - NOT to convince her of anything.
Also, just like juries, WAS's or MLCers or whatever label you choose, do NOT want long speeches or pages to read. Don't make it homework to read.
Keep it simple. What can you possibly want to say that is beyond a page?
I mean, given the things you have already said,
What actions are you taking to SHOW change in YOU??
Because the rest of it sounds more like Charlie Brown's teacher...
Wah wah wah wah...
There is power in economy of words.
she will NOT hear what you say if you get too wordy. She will tune out huge chunks and hone in on what she fears or wants to hear (depending on her agenda and openness)
and neither is your goal.
Your goal is to express yourself, - NOT to convince her of anything.
I can certainly agree with this, but my method of getting there is to put a lot out and then find the parts that really mean the most to me as the message I want to get out to her. I am certainly not wanting to convince her of anything or try to manipulate anything out of her. I don't want her back if it isn't mutual and genuine. I really want to get out that I understand things and have reflected a great deal on it and I am making honest changes for myself to make myself a better person.
Also, just like juries, WAS's or MLCers or whatever label you choose, do NOT want long speeches or pages to read. Don't make it homework to read.
Keep it simple. What can you possibly want to say that is beyond a page?
I mean, given the things you have already said,
What actions are you taking to SHOW change in YOU??
Because the rest of it sounds more like Charlie Brown's teacher...
Wah wah wah wah...
There is power in economy of words.
So I can talk to my wife about anything as long as it doesn't relate her to San Diego. For instance I was talking to her last night about my buddy Darvey being over and his little boy Alex who is 5 years old and who loves my wife. As soon as I mention that Alex asked about her she completely ignores that anything was even said. She will answer anything else, but anything that links her to her past here she ignores. Why is that? What is the reasoning behind it? I'm not trying to mind read her or care to much about it, but I would like to understand why. It helps me to understand things more when I get insight like this. What harm would it do for her to acknowledge that the little guy misses her. Is it simply because it makes her feel guilty and think about what she has left and what she is doing?
It could well be shame. If I suggest in any way that my children are hurting, in pain, etc. I get a rage. If I factually state something like "D failed her class" then all is good. If I say, "D is really hurting and as a result she isn't able to do her homework and is failing her class," then the rage is rapidly present and I am being told what a horrible mother I am and dangerous to my children.
Another thing that has been going through my head is that I need to stop being available to her when ever she needs me. This all about detaching right? In my situation it seems she never needs me anyway and I feel that the less I am in contact with her the easier it is for her to push away and for me to leave her mind. A week ago she did contact me twice in a row all on her own with a few days in between. This would be my only opportunity to not be available to her in some way. Although, she seems just to be contacting me for the heck of it and maybe almost from out of boredom or like she is just being nice to me. I always text her back, but not to much or with any kind of haste. Would it be wise of me to ignore her text? She has ultimately never ignored mine at all, but rather just took a very long time to get back to me. I think she might take me ignoring her as not caring about her or our relationship if I did. Obviously not the message I want to make, so detaching and not always being available when she lives across the country is a hard one to put into play the rules of DBing. Any advice of how to deal with it would be greatly appreciated.
It could well be shame. If I suggest in any way that my children are hurting, in pain, etc. I get a rage. If I factually state something like "D failed her class" then all is good. If I say, "D is really hurting and as a result she isn't able to do her homework and is failing her class," then the rage is rapidly present and I am being told what a horrible mother I am and dangerous to my children.
Shame makes sense for sure. She tries so hard not to have any emotion to anything I say that relates her to me.
[quote=Cali08]So I can talk to my wife about anything as long as it doesn't relate her to San Diego. For instance I was talking to her last night about my buddy Darvey being over and his little boy Alex who is 5 years old and who loves my wife. As soon as I mention that Alex asked about her she completely ignores that anything was even said. She will answer anything else, but anything that links her to her past here she ignores. Why is that? What is the reasoning behind it? I'm not trying to mind read her or care to much about it, but I would like to understand why.
well, that^^ is exactly trying to mind read. I assume she feels you are trying to manipulate her into missing SD or feeling guilt. Dig deep...why did you mention how a 5 y/o feels about her?
What was the goal in sharing that?
It helps me to understand things more when I get insight like this. What harm would it do for her to acknowledge that the little guy misses her.
Dig deeper and ask yourself the questions, things like what your goal was..& why you are now examining her reactions and why you'd persist in bringing the kid up.
It could well be shame. If I suggest in any way that my children are hurting, in pain, etc. I get a rage. If I factually state something like "D failed her class" then all is good. If I say, "D is really hurting and as a result she isn't able to do her homework and is failing her class," then the rage is rapidly present and I am being told what a horrible mother I am and dangerous to my children.
Shame makes sense for sure. She tries so hard not to have any emotion to anything I say that relates her to me.
Guilt is remorse about an action we do, regardless of what others might know.
Shame is worry about others finding out about that action. I don't think your wife feels shame. I think she's annoyed by your intransigence. Just a guess.
I think there is resentment but there can be more than one emotion felt at the same time.
One other question I just now thought of it because I saw the draft of the video I was making on my hard drive. Anyway I made a video with our vacation footage of us in Hawaii a little while ago and she really liked it and asked me to make some more. I was in the process of putting together a video that really celebrated her as my wife and partner in life. Kind of dedicated to her more than our vacations and adventures to together. The video still needs a lot of work, but my question is if I should finish it and show it to her. My idea is showing her what she has lost and what she is giving up. The clips I have on it are of some of our favorite times together. I also have wedding footage in it. What do you guys think. I would just present it to her that I finished it if she cares to see it and that is it. I would have no expectation from it.
[quote=Cali08]So I can talk to my wife about anything as long as it doesn't relate her to San Diego. For instance I was talking to her last night about my buddy Darvey being over and his little boy Alex who is 5 years old and who loves my wife. As soon as I mention that Alex asked about her she completely ignores that anything was even said. She will answer anything else, but anything that links her to her past here she ignores. Why is that? What is the reasoning behind it? I'm not trying to mind read her or care to much about it, but I would like to understand why.
well, that^^ is exactly trying to mind read. I assume she feels you are trying to manipulate her into missing SD or feeling guilt. Dig deep...why did you mention how a 5 y/o feels about her?
What was the goal in sharing that?
It helps me to understand things more when I get insight like this. What harm would it do for her to acknowledge that the little guy misses her.
Dig deeper and ask yourself the questions, things like what your goal was..& why you are now examining her reactions and why you'd persist in bringing the kid up.
Im merely noticing how she is talking to me now, which is much more friendly and light hearted. I wasn't doing anything out of the normal. I always told her when Alex asked about her. She loves that little guy.... or at least used too. I simple said Alex was asking about you. This brings me to another point though. I asked her before about what to tell my little cousins and my niece and nephew and she said to basically keep them in the dark for now. Why keep them in the dark. I honestly think she should have to talk to them herself and let them know what she is doing. It's the cowards way out of it in my opinion. She runs off and doesn't have to deal with any responsibility of her actions.
Anyways I let her know when people ask about her it's only conversation and nothing that I wouldn't do before. What does she think is going to happen if she just acknowledges that the little guy asked about her. Give me a break, that seems so ridiculous in my opinion. He is 5 years old.....or am I just once again not thinking about this correctly?
It could well be shame. If I suggest in any way that my children are hurting, in pain, etc. I get a rage. If I factually state something like "D failed her class" then all is good. If I say, "D is really hurting and as a result she isn't able to do her homework and is failing her class," then the rage is rapidly present and I am being told what a horrible mother I am and dangerous to my children.
Shame makes sense for sure. She tries so hard not to have any emotion to anything I say that relates her to me.
Guilt is remorse about an action we do, regardless of what others might know.
Shame is worry about others finding out about that action. I don't think your wife feels shame. I think she's annoyed by your intransigence. Just a guess.
I think there is resentment but there can be more than one emotion felt at the same time. What would I not be agreeing with in what she did as far as the reality of it goes? I certainly view the fact that she left and I don't deny that in the least.
My Wife left because she felt neglected, unloved, alone and misunderstood. I made the choice to withdraw and stopped making efforts to get her attention. She made the choice to leave because she thought our relationship came to a dead end. This is in very short how I see how things went down. I just wish she had the same kind of commitment I do to our marriage and the want to always work things out.
(ADDED ON TO WHAT I TYPED ABOVE)
She tried to relay this to me, but as much as I was into the relationship I missed it and wasn’t able to change my behavior
Im working on the East Coast for a few days and I am most likely to have a couple off here soon. Do you think it would be wise of me to see if I could go visit her?
OK all this is the final of my first draft of a letter I wrote to my wife. I could use all of the help I can get on it. I am hoping it will help bring understanding and hope for our relationship. I want to make sure that there isn't anything in the letter that might be viewed in the wrong way. I would love to hear from anyone who would care to comment on it. Any WAW wives would be especially great to hear your opinion on it. I can still whittle it down a bit, but I did a ton of that already and this is what is left for now. As it is it's just over a full page in a word document. Do you think I should hand write it and mail to her for a more personal touch?
Wife (I will use her actually name here),
I know we have been apart for a while now, but distance had been growing between us for even longer. It’s been enough time for me to take a step back, reflect and realize the mistakes I’ve made with you and with myself.
I let time go by before writing to you because I felt your need for space and to re-find yourself.
Through this letter I’m not only striving for your forgiveness, but I need to tell you something different from what I told you during our latest discussions. I have trouble expressing myself on the phone with you; this is why this letter is so important to me.
I was unable to see and come to terms with your unhappiness and the fact that our relationship was going downhill. I’ve come to realize that I didn’t know how to listen to you and understand your feelings and that, despite our love for one another; it was hard for me to communicate with you and discuss our paths. I could neither understand your fears nor see the solutions you proposed for our relationship.
This breakup, I accept it because I have to, but mostly because it symbolizes your discomfort. I didn’t know how to act quickly enough, and I was not able to get over my fear of losing you. In all, I did things backwards.
Instead of acting, I closed up. I isolated myself thinking that doing nothing and letting time go by would be the best solution, or at least a good one. But while time was slipping away, I became more and more focused on my fear of not being able to fulfill your needs, my fear of not bringing you what you needed, my fear of not providing you the life you deserve and simply the fear of losing you.
You’re such an intelligent and beautiful woman. I was unable to absolve your doubts and bring you the support you needed so dearly. I was unable to help you to be yourself in our relationship.
Sadly, I understood this all far too late. Worst of all, I thought it was your fault.
I know that some of my actions and words may have hurt you, and I am truly sorry for that, but I think that you know me well enough to know that it wasn’t my intention. During those times I acted this way because I was not able to control my emotions and to think about the consequences of my actions.
I ever forgot the basic element of love: Being happy and helping your partner be happy.
Yet, every night I lie in bed asking myself how we got here. After all the moments we’ve shared and the connection we have, we find ourselves apart and hardly communicating.
You know (HER NAME), I never choose to be attracted to you, but you attracted me. You are a loving, fearless woman with an enormous amount of courage and worth. This is a fact, a reality that I understand when I think back on when we first met or on any point in our relationship. It’s heartbreaking that all this went down due to our words and our actions.
I wanted to tell you that, thanks to you, I was given the unique opportunity to experience a wonderful relationship filled with connection, excitement and serenity. All this reminds me that we share the same ideas and morals. It reminds me that you can accept the fact that relationships can go through hard times.
I have matured in the past couple months and I have realized many things about myself thanks to this time apart. Our separating and the unsettling situation following it triggered within me an understanding that I never had until now, and I am completely confident in my ability to continually act on it.
Today, I know that I am capable of changing, not only because I have learned from my mistakes, but because I now know how to amend them with actions, actions you deserve from me. You are still a very important person in my life. The time you afforded me for personal reflection was positive. In all, this was a great lesson which has shown me that I should NEVER be like this again and always act positively in the future.
I would like to see you again and to show you the new man that I am, or the former – the one who initially seduced you!
With all my affection,
Cali
Wife (I will use her actually name here),
I know we have been apart for a while now, but distance had been growing between us for even longer. It’s been enough time for me to take a step back, reflect and realize the mistakes I’ve made with you and with myself.
I let time go by before writing to you because I felt your need for space and to re-find yourself. So are you suggesting now that she doesnt need that space or is finished 'finding' herself?
Through this letter I’m not only striving for your forgiveness, but I need to tell you something different from what I told you during our latest discussions. I would focus on you here.
I dont think you should ask for forgiveness, because putting some expectation on to her. It's putting the onus on her to do or say something in response to this. My understanding is that your goal is to apologize or explain yourself - focus on that. I have trouble expressing myself on the phone with you; this is why this letter is so important to me. Im confused - the letter is important to you because you have trouble talking on the phone...? I thought it was important to you because you wanted to express your feelings/thoughts?
I was unable to see and come to terms with your unhappiness and the fact that our relationship was going downhill. I’ve come to realize that I didn’t know how to listen to you and understand your feelings how does writing this letter show that you understand that she wanted space? and that, despite our love for one another; it was hard for me to communicate with you and discuss our paths. I could neither understand your fears nor see the solutions you proposed for our relationship. I think this is very vague. Its a lot of words, but it doesnt really have much meaning, at least to me? What does 'discuss our paths' mean? Like 25 said, I think you want to specifically address issues vs. write in generalities.
This breakup, I accept it because I have to, but mostly because it symbolizes your discomfort. I didn’t know how to act quickly enough, and I was not able to get over my fear of losing you. In all, I did things backwards. These dont seem like complete thoughts. Again, what do you mean specifically?
Instead of acting, I closed up. I isolated myself thinking that doing nothing and letting time go by would be the best solution, or at least a good one. But while time was slipping away, I became more and more focused on my fear of not being able to fulfill your needs, my fear of not bringing you what you needed, my fear of not providing you the life you deserve and simply the fear of losing you.
You’re such an intelligent and beautiful woman. I was unable to absolve your doubts and bring you the support you needed so dearly. I was unable to help you to be yourself in our relationship. Again, I thnk I would put in something specifically.
It sounds like this is you writing this acknowledging that you are losing her and hoping for a hail mary.
Sadly, I understood this all far too late. Worst of all, I thought it was your fault.
I know that some of my actions and words may have hurt you, and I am truly sorry for that, but I think that you know me well enough to know that it wasn’t my intention. Be careful here -
around here, it's said that anything 'before the but' doesnt count.
Like you are not really apologizing but rather justifying.
During those times I acted this way because I was not able to control my emotions and to think about the consequences of my actions.
I ever forgot the basic element of love: Being happy and helping your partner be happy.
Yet, every night I lie in bed asking myself how we got here. After all the moments we’ve shared and the connection we have, we find ourselves apart and hardly communicating.
You know (HER NAME), I never choose to be attracted to you, but you attracted me. You are a loving, fearless woman with an enormous amount of courage and worth. This is a fact, a reality that I understand when I think back on when we first met or on any point in our relationship. It’s heartbreaking that all this went down due to our words and our actions. Focus again on you - I wouldnt bring up anything blaming her in this letter.
I wanted to tell you that, thanks to you, I was given the unique opportunity to experience a wonderful relationship filled with connection, excitement and serenity. All this reminds me that we share the same ideas and morals. It reminds me that you can accept the fact that relationships can go through hard times.
I have matured in the past couple months and I have realized many things about myself thanks to this time apart. Our separating and the unsettling situation following it triggered within me an understanding that I never had until now, and I am completely confident in my ability to continually act on it.
Today, I know that I am capable of changing, not only because I have learned from my mistakes, but because I now know how to amend them with actions, actions you deserve from me. You are still a very important person in my life. The time you afforded me for personal reflection was positive. In all, this was a great lesson which has shown me that I should NEVER be like this again and always act positively in the future.
I would like to see you again and to show you the new man that I am, or the former – the one who initially seduced you!
With all my affection,
Cali
I understand your sentiments here and I can certainly feel your love echoing through your words. I know that there arent positive comments up ^^. I say these things, because I am worried that you wont get the response you are hoping for with this. In my opinion,
this letter is full of expectations; a plea from a man begging for a chance to make things right. My concern is that you arent really addressing anything as to how it will be different. You give adjectives and descriptions through your words, but what actions will you take? How will things actually be different?
Im wishing you luck, but I hope that you really consider your aim in sending this letter. In reading it, I found it a little scattered -
What is your goal in sending it? What are your expectations?
Wife (I will use her actually name here),
I know we have been apart for a while now, but distance had been growing between us for even longer. It’s been enough time for me to take a step back, reflect and realize the mistakes I’ve made with you and with myself.
I let time go by before writing to you because I felt your need for space and to re-find yourself. So are you suggesting now that she doesnt need that space or is finished 'finding' herself? I'm not sure how I am suggesting anything other than giving her time and space before I decided to write her. That is what I was thinking when writing it anyway.
Through this letter I’m not only striving for your forgiveness, but I need to tell you something different from what I told you during our latest discussions. I would focus on you here.
I dont think you should ask for forgiveness, because putting some expectation on to her. It's putting the onus on her to do or say something in response to this. My understanding is that your goal is to apologize or explain yourself - focus on that. I can rethink this part and see what I can come up with. I have trouble expressing myself on the phone with you; this is why this letter is so important to me. Im confused - the letter is important to you because you have trouble talking on the phone...? I thought it was important to you because you wanted to express your feelings/thoughts?Really that have should have been the word had, because we only had one conversation that obviously no one here was a part of, so I can understand some of your confusion on things. She knows that I told her I wanted to write her because when I was on the phone with her I told her I had so many thoughts going through my head that it was hard putting them in the right order and I wanted to be clear with her. I said writing would help make things clearer for both of us.
I was unable to see and come to terms with your unhappiness and the fact that our relationship was going downhill. I’ve come to realize that I didn’t know how to listen to you and understand your feelings how does writing this letter show that you understand that she wanted space? I'm not sure how you got that I understood she wanted space out of those two sentences?and that, despite our love for one another; it was hard for me to communicate with you and discuss our paths. I could neither understand your fears nor see the solutions you proposed for our relationship. I think this is very vague. Its a lot of words, but it doesnt really have much meaning, at least to me? What does 'discuss our paths' mean? Like 25 said, I think you want to specifically address issues vs. write in generalities.Again, you are not part of the situation, so I can see the confusion. What I mean is that I would assume my wife will understand what I mean by that. Basically discussing our future plans as a husband and wife, which she has mentioned to me before.
This breakup, I accept it because I have to, but mostly because it symbolizes your discomfort. I didn’t know how to act quickly enough, and I was not able to get over my fear of losing you. In all, I did things backwards. These dont seem like complete thoughts. Again, what do you mean specifically?Again I think she will understand this. What I mean is that I know I am only now understanding the things she was trying to get me to understand while still in the relationship. I am learning them now instead of then, so backwards.
Instead of acting, I closed up. I isolated myself thinking that doing nothing and letting time go by would be the best solution, or at least a good one. But while time was slipping away, I became more and more focused on my fear of not being able to fulfill your needs, my fear of not bringing you what you needed, my fear of not providing you the life you deserve and simply the fear of losing you.
You’re such an intelligent and beautiful woman. I was unable to absolve your doubts and bring you the support you needed so dearly. I was unable to help you to be yourself in our relationship. Again, I thnk I would put in something specifically.
It sounds like this is you writing this acknowledging that you are losing her and hoping for a hail mary.Not hoping for a hell mary in the least, but hoping to open up real discussion between us that leads to better understanding and solutions.
Sadly, I understood this all far too late. Worst of all, I thought it was your fault.
I know that some of my actions and words may have hurt you, and I am truly sorry for that, but I think that you know me well enough to know that it wasn’t my intention. Be careful here -
around here, it's said that anything 'before the but' doesnt count.
Like you are not really apologizing but rather justifying.
OK, I can re-think this too and see what I come up with, but I see your point.
During those times I acted this way because I was not able to control my emotions and to think about the consequences of my actions.
I ever forgot the basic element of love: Being happy and helping your partner be happy.
Yet, every night I lie in bed asking myself how we got here. After all the moments we’ve shared and the connection we have, we find ourselves apart and hardly communicating.
You know (HER NAME), I never choose to be attracted to you, but you attracted me. You are a loving, fearless woman with an enormous amount of courage and worth. This is a fact, a reality that I understand when I think back on when we first met or on any point in our relationship. It’s heartbreaking that all this went down due to our words and our actions. Focus again on you - I wouldnt bring up anything blaming her in this letter.A simple wording change should be suffice here, thanks.
I wanted to tell you that, thanks to you, I was given the unique opportunity to experience a wonderful relationship filled with connection, excitement and serenity. All this reminds me that we share the same ideas and morals. It reminds me that you can accept the fact that relationships can go through hard times.
I have matured in the past couple months and I have realized many things about myself thanks to this time apart. Our separating and the unsettling situation following it triggered within me an understanding that I never had until now, and I am completely confident in my ability to continually act on it.
Today, I know that I am capable of changing, not only because I have learned from my mistakes, but because I now know how to amend them with actions, actions you deserve from me. You are still a very important person in my life. The time you afforded me for personal reflection was positive. In all, this was a great lesson which has shown me that I should NEVER be like this again and always act positively in the future.
I would like to see you again and to show you the new man that I am, or the former – the one who initially seduced you!
With all my affection,
Cali
I understand your sentiments here and I can certainly feel your love echoing through your words. I know that there arent positive comments up ^^. I say these things, because I am worried that you wont get the response you are hoping for with this. In my opinion,
this letter is full of expectations; a plea from a man begging for a chance to make things right. My concern is that you arent really addressing anything as to how it will be different. You give adjectives and descriptions through your words, but what actions will you take? How will things actually be different?
Im wishing you luck, but I hope that you really consider your aim in sending this letter. In reading it, I found it a little scattered -
What is your goal in sending it? What are your expectations?
This letter is among the first that I want to send, but it's my opener. Like suggested I don't want to make it too long and lose her in the sauce so to speak. I did do a lot more of addressing real issue in the original letter, but it made it way to long. I figured maybe that multiple letters would be better, but I also figured a response from her to this first letter will better help guide me in my second letter. I hope that makes sense, but all in all you really didn't rip apart the letter to badly in my eyes. Thanks for your input. If you have any suggestion or things to add to it I would always appreciate hearing it.
I figured maybe that multiple letters would be better, but I also figured a response from her to this first letter will better help guide me in my second letter.
Im still a little confused. The goal of this is to open a dialogue? If so, I think you are still way too long by at least 50%. What kind of dialogue are you opening if you spill your heart onto the page like this? This seems like a lot of pressure on her if you are throwing all of this out at her with the expectation of her responding.
If your goal is to apologize, then I think you should put it in one note that you have no expectation for ever even receiving a reply; it is for you to apologize only. If so, then I think you need to reconsider a lot of the content, and again, youre probably too long by at least 50%.
I will say, one comment you made struck me. At the beginning of your note, you said this: "I let time go by before writing to you because
I felt your need for space and to re-find yourself. "
So, now, are you suggesting she doesnt need that anymore? Or that you dont respect that need anymore? What is causing you to write this letter now when you already say that you know she wants space? I believe it's showing that your wants are more important than hers if she says she wants space and you are writing her to open a dialogue. Again, just my opinion.
I figured maybe that multiple letters would be better, but I also figured a response from her to this first letter will better help guide me in my second letter.
Im still a little confused. The goal of this is to open a dialogue? If so, I think you are still way too long by at least 50%. What kind of dialogue are you opening if you spill your heart onto the page like this? This seems like a lot of pressure on her if you are throwing all of this out at her with the expectation of her responding.
If your goal is to apologize, then I think you should put it in one note that you have no expectation for ever even receiving a reply; it is for you to apologize only. If so, then I think you need to reconsider a lot of the content, and again, youre probably too long by at least 50%.
I will say, one comment you made struck me. At the beginning of your note, you said this: "I let time go by before writing to you because
I felt your need for space and to re-find yourself. "
So, now, are you suggesting she doesnt need that anymore? Or that you dont respect that need anymore? What is causing you to write this letter now when you already say that you know she wants space? I believe it's showing that your wants are more important than hers if she says she wants space and you are writing her to open a dialogue. Again, just my opinion.
My goal is to apologize, but also to start a talk to get somewhere. Again, that's all I have with her is talking. The real goal is to get face to face time with her so she can actually see changes that I have made and what I have learned from this experience. Do you think that isn't a good goal? In my opinion the best way to work on a relationship is together, not apart. At the moment I text her a picture late Monday night and then she responded late Saturday night and I haven't text her or heard from her since. I am thinking that I will break the silence when I get this letter to a place I want it to be.
I do want to really get into the things I have learned and explain myself to her in a letter, but like I said I want to not be to long and this is what I came up with. I am kind of using this to lead into that goal of expressing the things I learned. It's hard to do because explaining things to her isn't going to be a quick or short thing to do in a letter, in my opinion.
[quote=Cali08]OK all this is the final of my first draft of a letter I wrote to my wife. I could use all of the help I can get on it. I am hoping it will help bring understanding and hope for our relationship. I want to make sure that there isn't anything in the letter that might be viewed in the wrong way.
you can word things carefully & with clarity, but you cannot control how the recipient receives it. That's how it is.
[quote=Cali08]OK all this is the final of my first draft of a letter I wrote to my wife. I could use all of the help I can get on it. I am hoping it will help bring understanding and hope for our relationship. I want to make sure that there isn't anything in the letter that might be viewed in the wrong way.
you can word things carefully & with clarity, but you cannot control how the recipient receives it. That's how it is.
Very true, so what is stopping me from sending it the way it is. Since you were the one who mentioned for it not to be to long, what do you think of the length and content?
First, I think it's way too vague and too long. There are general sentiments without almost any specifics at all.
Second, HOW specifically would the marriage be different or better than before?
Third, don't say things like "IF it" or "MAY have hurt" you...
of course something you did or said or did not do or say, hurt her.
You know this. Just own that part. No more qualifications to it.
You said you want to apologize. Just do that. Validate her and apologize for your shortcomings. If you must, then disclose some specific insights you have.
My goal is to apologize, but also to start a talk to get somewhere. Again, that's all I have with her is talking. The real goal is to get face to face time with her so she can actually see changes that I have made and what I have learned from this experience.
did you go to see her? What do you think Her love language is? And yours?
Do you think that isn't a good goal? In my opinion the best way to work on a relationship is together, not apart.
Not always, not all the time, but I get your point.
At the moment I text her a picture late Monday night and then she responded late Saturday night and I haven't text her or heard from her since. I am thinking that I will break the silence when I get this letter to a place I want it to be.
I do want to really get into the things I have learned and explain myself to her in a letter, but like I said I want to not be to long and this is what I came up with.
what specifics have you learned? So much of this is vague "didn't help you be happy", "Didn't see your discomfort"...what does that mean?
You worked too much? You were gone too much?
Too tired or irritable or didn't show your desire for her enough or what??
Sorry. I just feel like it's really general and almost syrupy. Humility is fine if it's coupled with a plan for change and or, just an insightful apology.
I am kind of using this to lead into that goal of expressing the things I learned.
So, why not just list 2-3 specific behaviors you would change, based on what you have learned and regret?
It's hard to do because explaining things to her isn't going to be a quick or short thing to do in a letter, in my opinion.
well, that's obvious.
please post it again in a modified version
thanks
OK, so I had last heard from my wife last Saturday night a week ago when she returned my text from the day earlier. I didn't feel the need to respond to it. Then she text me out of the blue this Friday night around 2:00 Am her time. The text goes like this.
Wife - Hi
Me - Hi Natalie, what are you up too?
Wife - Not much. Trying to sleep but it's too hot.
Wife - It's Late.
Wife - Nia (Her friend) is here and she's going to wake me up
early.....
Me - Why is she going to wake you up early?
Wife - She wake up early. She went to bed around 10.
Me - Probably be up around 6 or 7 then.
Wife - Yep.... And she's going to wake me up. lol
Me - Well that sinks. Sleep is important.
Wife - Yeah.... I have heartburn too.
Wife -
Wife - How was your day?
I was leaving my parents house so I text her to drive home.
Me - Driving
Wife - K
Me - (about 30 min later) You're probably sleeping, night.
Wife- (next morning) I fell asleep
I didn't respond to that because I felt no need. Then I get a text from her yesterday while I was in the movie with my family and this is what I get.
Wife - I'm sorry to do it this way but I will be sending the divorce
papers to you this week. All I ask is that you sign. I'm not asking for anything more. I'm hoping we can do this peacefully. I wish you no ill will, I feel this is the best.
Me- I'm in a movie right now, but I'll call you as soon as I'm out. We need to talk. We have a lot to talk about.
Wife - I see
Me - I only want to talk truthfully to you. I't important.
So I call her and talk to her about things for about 50 min or so, I didn't want to keep it too long. We talk about the same issue's of California not being a good fit for her. I wasn't home working and living our lives separately because of my travel schedule. It was really hard on her trying to find a job. I shut her out and didn't communicate things good enough for her. She doesn't get to see her friends and family enough. She tells me that her family does love me and that she loved my family. She tells me that I wasn't there for her enough.
She tells me that she doesn't need me to apologize to her. I told that I was still in the process of writing her a letter. She fires back with it being two weeks since I said that. I had to explain to her that one of my family members, someone who was also close to her, was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and I have been occupied with that. Oddly enough she didn't really seem to care about that information, but she prodded me for why I hadn't finished the letter yet. I can still sense a lot of anger in her when she got going talking about things, but it's always a silly little game to get her to start talking.
I basically told her in a nut shell that in the time away I have had a lot of reflection on things and how they went, but mostly on myself. I am changing, not for her or to be someone different, but to better myself. I validated everything she she said and didn't argue it at all. I told her I know I didn't do things the right way. At the time I felt they were right and couldn't see what I was really doing to her. I said what I do know is that you don't give up on the people you love. You commit to them and you work things out, you make them better and work on it together. Things like this is what makes a marriage stronger. She agrees with me on this that trials and tribulations do make a marriage stronger.
At this point she still tells me she doesn't want to be in California because it wasn't a good fit for her. She asked me if I was willing to except the fact that she may never be happy if she moved back. I told her that I want her to be happy, but these are the things we work on together. That we make seeing her family a priority for our vacations. We also would make that decision together if we need to ultimately move to Virginia. I asked her what if I moved to Virginia? She answers with, you can do what ever you want, but you wouldn't be happy here because you told me that you hate the East Coast. I responded with I wish I would have never told you that (I know, but this was using her own line against her for things she told me). Then she says I can't ask you to do that and I can't ask you to leave you're family, especially at a time like this. In the back of my head I was thinking I knew it wasn't the real issue and it's just something she is trying to wedge between us.
She also mentioned that I could have been calling her and talking to her anytime I wanted, but I didn't. I'm not sure if that, according to what I supposed to be doing with DBing, would have been the best thing for me to do or not.
I finally finished the conversation with saying again that you don't give up on the people that we love and that you work things out. She mentioned that money was already spend on the divorce papers..... Geez! That to me is such a silly thing to say. I said so what a marriage is more important then that and we should be working on things. She said she wasn't sure what to say and just doesn't know..... I said I'll let you get back to your friend because it's getting late and I'll talk to you later.
I still want to write the letter, but I think it's going to take a different turn for me now. I definitely feel better that she wants nothing and has already signed the papers. Makes me feel like I can be a little more free about what I say to her in the letter.
Anyway what do you all think about the new turn of events?
you know what I think
her first paragraph says 90% of what you cannot get past
We talk about the same issue's of California not being a good fit for her. I wasn't home working and living our lives separately because of my travel schedule. It was really hard on her trying to find a job. I shut her out and didn't communicate things good enough for her. She doesn't get to see her friends and family enough. She tells me that her family does love me and that she loved my family. She tells me that I wasn't there for her enough.
She has depressive episodes you have touched on repeatedly. And you want to take her away from the support system she thinks is better for her. You can argue all you want about how you don't agree about what makes her happy...
you can tell her you have changed, and show better communication,
but when you still insist on removing her from what SHE FEELS IS IMPORTANT, you are telling her that
either her needs are Not as valuable as yours
and or
you know whats best.
may I assume you chose not to go see her in person when you had the chance?
If so, why?
may I assume you chose not to go see her in person when you had the chance?
If so, why?
I want her to want to see me, rather than me forcing myself on her so to speak, but yes I didn't go see her the last time I was about 6 hours away from her. I am heading back there on the tenth and can probably sneak away to see her for a few hours. Do you think that would be wise? I would rather just fly there and spend time with her then have to rush there and back because I only have so much time before I fly out.
I also understand what you think about me taking her away from her family, but when I talked about moving there she almost tries to talk to talk me out of it. And that is another reason why I think being around family and friends is bullshit. Besides that fact that she has claimed many times to not only me but others that her family life has never been that good and she really hardly knows most of her family.
I'm still going to fight the divorce. I think in the state of California I want to say it's a 6 month process before the divorce is final, but not to sure. I still feel and hear a bit of a possibility for working things out with her. What would your advice based on your experience be for this?
What is the point of fighting the divorce if you are not going to take the corrective actions necessary to fix the marriage. You are a maddening guy. This woman tells you over and over what she needs. Everyone here tells you to listen to that and you still make excuse after excuse. She probably tries to put you off because she doesn't believe you'll do it or you will do it with resentment, which would be even worse.
What is the point of fighting the divorce if you are not going to take the corrective actions necessary to fix the marriage. You are a maddening guy. This woman tells you over and over what she needs. Everyone here tells you to listen to that and you still make excuse after excuse. She probably tries to put you off because she doesn't believe you'll do it or you will do it with resentment, which would be even worse.
I really don't get that feeling from it at all. I am going to still propose that I move there and I will feel her out. I told her that I would be happy where I choose to be happy. You can say I'm not doing anything to fix it and that is fine, but you really don't see the changes I have made. I don't think laying waste to everything I have fought and sacrificed myself for in California is a smart decision either and that is also according to her. The thing my wife has always been is very practical, which may be hard for you to understand because you don't know her. I said that we can make those decisions together where we choose to live.
What makes you think that I am FIGHTING the divorce? I'm fighting for our marriage, which is a different out look completely. I still believe in us and as I have said before I will put forth the effort to make it work the best I can. After I do all I can and she still chooses the same path then it tells me a whole lot about her and who I thought she was. In other words, I think she will be doing me a favor. If I really examine who has the most to lose in everything and who has put the effort into the marriage and who has really still been there through better or worse then it really be to my benefit. I will never beg or plead for someone to be with me and I only want someone who is going to be true. She is showing some different colors and it doesn't paint her in the best of light. I am still on the fence with it all and what she ultimately chooses in the end will give me the answer and tell if what I think or I am feeling is true.
"I'm still going to fight the divorce."
This is what made me say you were fighting the divorce. Your choice of words.
"I'm still going to fight the divorce."
This is what made me say you were fighting the divorce. Your choice of words.
Haha! Good point, but not what I mean by that. To be clear I'm fighting for the marriage.
but you are still saying the same thing.
Lets just say you two have an irreconcilable difference, because you do.
She FEELS she cannot be well in California, and you think you'll lose a lot of money by renting the house out, or selling it at a loss.
She thinks she can't be happy there, not b/c it's California, but b/c of the distance between CA and her support system. You think you have put a lot of energy into that house.
She has a predisposition to depression and being away from her support family, no matter how imperfect that family is. But family and her friends, are who SHE FEELS SHE NEEDS to be well, and at one time probably you there too.
You keep trying to argue her out of her feelings and saying, in effect, that you KNOW better than she feels. IT's very self serving b/c what you "know is better" happens to be what you want, and you missed a lot of her conditions when she was living with you. You had to, you were gone a lot.
In the phone conversations you have had, she says her needs were not met and you left her alone a lot. It's a theme for her, one which you have admitted.
So here, you ask if we think you ought to try and see her, and your response is you wanted her to invite you?
She's been rejected enough in that arena. Why not Show up and be with your wife b/c that's the right thing to do and to show that she matters to you.
but please do not follow this immediately with a demand for her to return. Then the :Showing up" is just a tactical maneuver. Try to job hunt for yourself and try to rent out that CA house or sell it soon (market is improving there)
But make the r to her and HER happiness & health, THE priority. Ahead of all else.
Make sense?
Otherwise, go your separate ways. You return back to your great job & take care of that very important house, let your wife heal herself, in the company of & surrounded by people who love her,
and wish each other well.
I mean, ^^this is the option you seem headed towards, though I know you'd prefer if she caves in...but I'm wondering what the most loving choice is now. I know what the most loving choice was a few months ago...
Good luck
but you are still saying the same thing.
Lets just say you two have an irreconcilable difference, because you do.
She FEELS she cannot be well in California, and you think you'll lose a lot of money by renting the house out, or selling it at a loss.
She thinks she can't be happy there, not b/c it's California, but b/c of the distance between CA and her support system. You think you have put a lot of energy into that house.
She has a predisposition to depression and being away from her support family, no matter how imperfect that family is. But family and her friends, are who SHE FEELS SHE NEEDS to be well, and at one time probably you there too.
You keep trying to argue her out of her feelings and saying, in effect, that you KNOW better than she feels. IT's very self serving b/c what you "know is better" happens to be what you want, and you missed a lot of her conditions when she was living with you. You had to, you were gone a lot.
I honestly don't feel like I'm trying to argue her out of anything. Our conversations have been more about understanding the each other, at least for me. I am making all the effort in wanting to make our marriage work. What is the real issue of wanting her at least be open to it, especially when I have discussed with her about moving. I have been completely honest with her and when I talk to her of the things I have learn and things that I should have talked to her about openly she says things like I wish you would have told me that then. She makes it seem that things would have been totally different if I had been more transparent with her and what I was thinking. Also having more communication while I was gone would have made it much better for her in California. It just gives an odd feeling of the whole situation.
In the phone conversations you have had, she says her needs were not met and you left her alone a lot. It's a theme for her, one which you have admitted.
I agree and I haven't disagreed with this at all and I ave discussed with her my true understanding of this and how I know I should have been and want to be.
So here, you ask if we think you ought to try and see her, and your response is you wanted her to invite you?
She's been rejected enough in that arena. Why not Show up and be with your wife b/c that's the right thing to do and to show that she matters to you.
but please do not follow this immediately with a demand for her to return. Then the :Showing up" is just a tactical maneuver. Try to job hunt for yourself and try to rent out that CA house or sell it soon (market is improving there)
I certainly wouldn't want to demand anything from her. I only want my wife to continue the marriage because she genuinely wants too. I only say I would rather her invite me because how it went down the last time I visited her. She makes it sound like she will have things going on and can't just stop things for me. I will only have a hours at the most to go see her. I am thinking that I would rather fly to see her so I can have genuine time with her. Then that begs the question of rather I show up and try to stay at her parents house or get a hotel instead. What do you think the better option is for me. I feel taking the time to fly there for at least 3 or 4 days to have more quality time with her is best.
But make the r to her and HER happiness & health, THE priority. Ahead of all else.
Make sense?
Absolutely this makes sense. I have talked to her about her family, health and her in general being the priority.
Otherwise, go your separate ways. You return back to your great job & take care of that very important house, let your wife heal herself, in the company of & surrounded by people who love her,
and wish each other well.
I mean, ^^this is the option you seem headed towards, though I know you'd prefer if she caves in...but I'm wondering what the most loving choice is now. I know what the most loving choice was a few months ago...
Good luck
So here is my next question? Should I let her know I'm coming or just show up? If I tell her I'm coming she could obviously tell me not to and then if I do.... well there is that. Is the best thing just to show up and knock on the door. While I'm there, what is my goal with her. Do I try to talk at least a little bit about the marriage or am I really just trying to have a good time with her?
Another thought is why would my wife even still want to talk to me after submitting the divorce papers. She responds to my text messages well, so I just don't get it.....
Cali, this is where you will benefit from talking to a coach.
Cali, this is where you will benefit from talking to a coach.
I was thinking of that, but honestly the first session I did gave me nothing I didn't know already from reading the site. I would much rather take her with me to see Michele in Colorado.
It seems my wife has stopped talking to me now. I talked to her through text messages with no issues and pretty normally for two days after the divorce text she sent me, but I texted her yesterday with no response and today with no reply yet either. Not sure how to deal with this....
What are your options?
1. Pursue her and probably push her further away
2. Do nothing and make her wonder about you for a change
What are your options?
1. Pursue her and probably push her further away
2. Do nothing and make her wonder about you for a change
I honestly think doing nothing is what pushed her more..... It made her think that I really don't care about her. I am also getting the feeling now that there is another guy. I am sure he pushed her to go through with the divorce too.
The last time she didn't respond to me she had a major episode. I started thinking that and I text her and asked if she was OK and if she had an episode. She responded pretty quickly to that and said. Hi, laying down, cramps. At least I got a response. I just responded with I'm glad to hear that! I hate those things! I left it at that.
If you keep pushing with texts with exclamation points, IMO, you are going to lose her totally.
I KNOW you think this is the problem that led to the problem, but I honestly think you are using that line as an excuse to continue to contact her. At this point, I truly believe if you don't hold back and let her miss you, you are just speeding up her decision to get out.