Infidelity/WAH, my story pt 10 - DivorceBusting.com

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Part 9

Not much to update, confronted WH about the Snap Chatting and he claims not to remember to agree to delete it. He said he'd delete it but then it's still there though inactive. He said he doesn't know if pretty, young nurse is single and doesn't really care, that he's not attracted to her. I reminded him that OW isn't his "type" yet he "fel" for her after a lot of poor boundaries.

WH is back to saying ILYBINILWY but saying he can't divorce me because of the guilt. I told him I can't continue to live like this and come summer, my plans are to move into the new house with the kids and he can live somewhere else. He seemed to think this wasn't real and kind of dismissed it. Meanwhile he's storing his motorcycles there. I am spinning in my own head, mostly feeling really bad emotions toward him, wondering if he's worth this fight and fantasizing about finding someone who will treat me like a queen. I vacillate between apathy and anger at WH, I don't even find him attractive anymore.

Financially I can't afford the retainer for a divorce (taxes just came in and WHOA! do we owe $$$$) so I am just doing nothing. Talk about quitting pursuing, I find relief now when I am not with WH. I've come to realize the only way I want to stay married to this man is if he had some sort of epiphany (like Ebenezer Scrooge) and made HUGE changes. I just can settle for this broken human who is so petty and immature. He has no depth, no desire to introspect and become better than a cheating @sshole. He's like a small child that likes shiny new things but grows bored easily. So...for now I do nothing.

Big argument tonight and voices raised on both sides. WH continues to be remorseless, arrogant and utterly unaccountable for his actions. I contacted a lawyer and will be setting up a consultation to discuss separation agreement with respects to custody and his visitation rights. WH refuses to move elsewhere (plans on moving into the new house) unless we can get something in writing. Fine by me. White flag going up, I quit.

I hope you find some peace...

Sara, I'm so sorry. I threw up the white flag of surrender tonight, too. May God give us strength.

You didn't surrender, Leahsue, nor you, Sara. The battle is not for your H, or even your M. Your battle is for your self. What you are both doing, is fighting, and winning, for your self. Remember that. Some people are just a-holes that don't deserve you, but you love them anyway.

I said to my W very early on in our R, that love is not enough. There are a multitude of factors that need to be there. Love is just one of them, and it's not worth losing your self over.

You will both find peace and happiness, whatever your future holds.

Thank you my friends, I am soooo done with this roller coaster. So I got into a long argument with WH last night. He kept comparing my insults and yelling at him after the affair with the same level of disrespect he showed me by cheating. I told him he was nuts and that both our MC said he was narcissistic. He became very sarcastic and started mocking me. At one point he referred to me as an ungrateful "thing" and I lost it on him. I told him if he referred to me as an object again he would be sleeping in the gutters tonight. Now WH is saying he refuses to move out and plans on moving into the new house because he "bought it." This led to my jaw dropping as he assured me the purpose of putting the new house in my name was so I wouldn't feel he was trying to be controlling. (I expressed DEEP reservations about buying a house while our relationship was such a wreck and he continually assured me he would not use it as a pawn piece) Of course I am the idiot for trusting a man who lies as easily as others breathe.

Then he said he would not come if I got something in writing by a lawyer stating what his parental rights were and then he would find his own place. I will be calling around to family lawyers so I can get that before the move. While I was angry I was not that out-of-control-rage angry that I used to be. My anger was more primary and not covering pain. Later that night I went to bed and awoke around an hour later with WH tapping me. I turned over and he said, "I said a lot of awful things to you tonight and I am sorry." The look on my face was probably a mix of confusion and irritation. While I am surprised he apologized (I can probably count on one hand how many times he has preemptively apologized after a fight) I am also just DONE.

I bought a book tonight on how to divorce a narcissist and will begin reading it as soon as it comes in. In the meantime I am just not believing ANYTHING he says from now on. He is unrecognizable to me. I called my cousin and filled him in on the situation (he was my only relative in the know) and he offered to break my WH's face. This was funny coming from a peace lover who's never been in a physical fight in his life. But he has stood quietly by watching me twist myself into a pretzel for WH and also witnessed WH's selfish behavior. My cousin loves me and feels WH needs a "good southern @ss kicking until he cries as many tears as you have." I got to say, it feels nice to have someone willing to go to jail for you. lol

I love it, Sara! You keep it up, girl!

We continue to be cordial and aloof from each other. I have an appointment with a lawyer this Monday to see if a pre-divorce contract stipulating WH's rights as a father can be outlined. WH states he wants this because he "can't trust me." Sure. I am the one who has lied, made promises to simply break them and violated our religion to cheat. Sure. The paralegal I spoke to on the phone said we could type up the agreement, have it notarized and use that. Legally speaking it has no power though. One thing I will NEVER do is use the kids as a way to hurt WH. All that matters to me is that the kids are protected and know that both parents love them.

In the end I may just have to go ahead and file, even the retainer fee is a lot less here in Florida than it was in NY. I can't continue to live with a man who shows no true remorse, who still had horrible boundaries and has no desire to help me heal from his betrayal. I am comforted by the fact that I tried every.single.thing. Dr Phil says you have to earn your way out of a marriage and I think I've done that. I tried detaching but find it virtually impossible with WH living under the same roof. It's simply a matter of time until he cheats again to fill the massive hole inside him.

Hi Sara,
You are so strong and level-headed. Of course whether you decide to file or not is a decision only you can make.... but just from what I've seen, it sure seems like you have done the "earning your way out" part. Either way, we have your back!

Hi Sara, I just caught up with that thread, I didn't notice you started a new one.

I totally agree that you tried everything and beyond to salvage your marriage with a very uncooperative WH. You need peace, your home should be your sanctuary. May be him being by himself withou you caring for everything in this life (house, kids, groceries, cleaning, laundry...) might show him down the road what a great woman and wife you are.

He needs a wake up call, believe me some men don't realize how much work and attention 3 young kids need on a daily basis, even if he helped you at home.

Do you think that his burst of anger might come that he realized that you are really done and you are ready to move on. He lost his control/power on you, you are no longer a wife he can manipulate with a few nice words but actually you are requiring now actions and enforcing boundaries. You are no longer afraid of confronting him even if it means to lose him.

Bigs hugs, my thoughts are with you, you are strong, you deserve being respected.

Update:

Saw the lawyer yesterday and she made it clear no legal paperwork could be done about shared custody of the kids outside of a divorce. There is no legal separation in Florida so basically I am stuck with this jerk. We continue to be cordial and sometimes he even acts like a decent human being, he asked how my heart was doing last night. I told him it was fine but had to bite back, "Still broken thanks to you, you @ss." Overall I have irritation at him but not much else. Mostly I feel pain over not being able to give my children my dream, a loving, and strong marriage to raise them in.

I am still very tired in the afternoons after I get off work and the kids appear very understanding. DS4 is especially gentle and keeps lying beside me and putting kisses on my cheeks. I hold them close and tight, I smell their hair and touch their soft skin. Truly I am blessed. Some co-workers know things are stressful in my marriage but are not savvy on the details. Tonight one of them texted me how much they love me and admire me. They also requested I come to the next girl's night out. I felt this warmth in my chest expand and a smile light my face. Life is good in spite of this mountain I continue to climb.

So frustrating... I don't know what to tell you...

Did you try yoga? It might help you to relax your body and your mind. I started a few months ago, I was very skeptical at first but after a few weeks I started to notice that the gentle stretching on my body was having a positive effect on my mind.

Rest and reach for good friends to bring some happiness to your life.

Hugs,

Sara,

((( )))

I'm not sure if you caught my thread situation, but there are similarities.

It's so important not to project our situations onto others. So I caution you to always take this into account.

Yet this is a support group and we all share some universal truths, and in some cases we share a lot of fact patterns.

A decade ago I spent a lot of time pondering the whole MLC versus WAH issues and in hindsight it makes no difference, since our approaches are the same.

I think people excessively focus on MLC b/c 1) they want to explain bad behavior in their spouses b/c they believe it will lessen the pain

and 2) b/c they believe, (without much empirical data supporting this belief ), that MLCers are more likely to return to the M's.

I asked and read so much about MLC's - and now I'd just say That's over a year+ of obsessing and being sad, that I'll never get back.

I do not regret wanting to be home for our kids.

I felt that if I hung in there long enough, my loyalty & devotion to our family would be rewarded and in time...(oh my God, so very very much of my life ) ...THEN it'll make up for all the sacrifices we have made. H will return this loyalty with the passionate love we once shared (and then some). I subconsciously felt "owed."

But what I told myself was something like ..."h will see how lucky he is and THEN we can get back to what we once had, AND OR have the future we once planned..."

I wanted my kids to be raised in a good home with a solid marriage. And for at least 12-18 years, they were...I no longer can assess when h changed or when I saw the realities of him, or whatever it was. (Can people "become" a narcissist or were they always one, or is it something else??)

Here are some random things to share.

When we were piecing, h said a lot of things I needed to hear in order to agree to recon, and reconciliation had been my goal, without reservation for the first year.

But when we began to piece, We did not specify behaviors or changes other than "we will both be making joint decisions AGAIN" so it was more like we were going to return to the marriage we had before 2005...

but later on, when boundaries got blurred, I did not enforce them.

Also h's mother became terminally ill a year into piecing and so our focus got derailed...and then we never really faced the causes of the idiocy in the first place.

IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN and if i were to choose to reconcile again, and piece,

I would absolutely require my h to get IC. Your h refused to do that and to me, in hindsight, I'd tell anyone that it's crucial.

I know with all my heart that we once had a really good marriage and family - yet h was willing to throw this away to follow his fantasy in Alaska.....he missed 2 years of our d's lives...he inflicted deep pain on the 4 people who loved him the most.

That's ^^ not normal, healthy, moral behavior. I wish we had gotten to the underlying issues IN H - but we didn't. Oh well.

Also when you speak of the having your kids grow up in a stable home...think about that phrase. I mean I get it, but there's another reality going on. Like your h's cognitive dissonance. That will not "fade", but will fester (I mean, without IC for him).

Fact is, my kids saw a lot of things I glossed over or turned away from in the m AND in h. I wanted to see things that validated my choice to stay.
I feel as if I was asleep and only now am awake. It's a scary place to be.

Also your medical issue and your h's behavior resonated with me a lot. Without going into more detail here hijacking, suffice to say I was very sick last fall, out of nowhere. And I was back east for a wedding that h did not attend. H is my h of 35 years, and an MD...(WTF?? I'd have been deeply embarrassed if I'd been "with it" enough).

When H FINALLY came to retrieve me after 6 days of being hospitalized, when my neurologist said I should not travel alone, he was weird.

H's behavior and his DELAY in coming, was just appalling. My family was stunned.-

So i related to your ablation story and how your h was "not sure he could get that day off".... I'm sorry to say I literally laughed out little b/c it SO reminded me of h.
(You're an MD, right? I mean, wtf?)

It was long a marriage in which h's dreams and goals and needs were eventually THE priority...and I bought into that. Pretty much anything he wanted and needed or said he needed, was okay as long as the family was intact. No h did not hit me or openly cheat (who knows what he did otherwise??)

Maybe if I had filed years ago, he'd have snapped out of it before too much damage had been done OR maybe I'd just have gotten back 10 years of my life.

So for a moment, forget the affair your h had. Just process the fact that although You are the mother of his children, when the chips were down, he did not have your back.

For ME, this was a devastating but clarifying realization.

I believe there is a lesson for you in my situation. Make of it, what you will.

And dear God, take care of yourself.

Originally Posted By: PsySara

Update:

Saw the lawyer yesterday and she made it clear no legal paperwork could be done about shared custody of the kids outside of a divorce. There is no legal separation in Florida so basically I am stuck with this jerk.

Did you say you are also a resident of NY? Have you compared the Div laws there?

And you are saying you are stuck with him b/c he won't move without anything in writing and you can only get that, with a divorce?

We continue to be cordial and sometimes he even acts like a decent human being, he asked how my heart was doing last night. I told him it was fine but had to bite back, "Still broken thanks to you, you @ss." Overall I have irritation at him but not much else. Mostly I feel pain over not being able to give my children my dream, a loving, and strong marriage to raise them in.

Maybe someday down the road you will achieve that - with someone else, or maybe your h will be that someone else.

But the man he is now cannot be the man you are supposed to be married to. I think your cleric said so, himself, correct?

And as you well know, an intact m is not always a strong loving one.

I'm working hard on not ruminating. Some cultures don't have the words "should/could or would have". And they tend to ruminate less than we do. They deal with what is, and don't look backwards too much. They are "here now."

I found that^^ fascinating & useful.

I am still very tired in the afternoons after I get off work and the kids appear very understanding. DS4 is especially gentle and keeps lying beside me and putting kisses on my cheeks. I hold them close and tight, I smell their hair and touch their soft skin. Truly I am blessed. Some co-workers know things are stressful in my marriage but are not savvy on the details. Tonight one of them texted me how much they love me and admire me. They also requested I come to the next girl's night out. I felt this warmth in my chest expand and a smile light my face.

beautiful

Health for you and for those kids - HUGE.

Life is good in spite of this mountain I continue to climb.

I apologize for the platitude (below) but it hits me as true. I feel intensely self aware and alive lately....I know that pain can be the touchstone for tremendous spiritual and emotional growth (or the place of wallowing bitterness)...

I just wonder now - if the mountains we climb will, someday, make our lives more beautiful?

(((sara)))

I really love what 25 wrote to you. I have been reading along today and trying to think of what I can add and have been drawing a blank. I have been following your sitch since day 1 and there has always been something in his behavior (intentions) that has been missing. Then I continue to see how much responsibility you take--almost shouldering all of his burdens--and it makes me angry. I am angry at your WH! He takes you for granted and you have done so much soul searching and worked hard to change--your patience, being the best mom and W you can be, and committing yourself wholly to your M. H on the other hand remains selfish and childlike.

When you speak of throwing up a white flag to surrender I find myself relieved. Partly I am relieved because I want him to feel reality slap in across the face so he can wake up. Honestly though, I find myself more thinking that you deserve better. Either way, this does not have to be black and white, you know? You can continue on--taking care of you and kids and making smart decisions--and the chips will fall into place. Whether you D today or next month, it is your health and happiness that really matters.

XOXO
Blu

((((Sara))))

You have worked so hard to try and save the M. However we perceive our S's means nothing if they are not willing to give back. I am hoping that you can find peace soon.

J

Leah,
I can't file until I get some finances straightened out. Meanwhile this means WH will be moving with us when I move us into the new house. I am focusing on the fact that the kids get to spend their evenings with both parents for now.

Sky,
I have wondered about WH's bursts of anger, they are often out of proportion to the perceived offense. I have vacillated between thinking he is projecting to he thinks he should be treated like he's perfect no matter how far that is from the truth. In the end it was just me trying to mind read and it was a waste of time and energy. I have come to the conclusion that WH simply lacks the depth to be introspective and actually look towards fixing what is wrong with himself, he can only see other's faults, never his own. As far as self care goes, as soon as the cardiologist clears me I am going to the gym again and also need to GAL a LOT more.

25,
Thank you for long, well thought out post. There are a LOT of parallels in our stories, aren't there. The ablation situation really was a light bulb moment for me. It brought me face-to-face with the lopsided nature of our marriage. If I am honest I can honestly say it's been like this since the beginning. Early in our marriage I became pregnant and then miscarried. I required a D&C and WH was working in the same hospital, he was on call that night and only visited me for about 5 minutes after the procedure. The next day I was being discharged and his chief walked up (I was holding my bag of belongings in the lobby) and asked WH if he wanted to come assist in a wound-vac changed. WH agreed eagerly and left me in the lobby for over 2 hours. I was completely stunned. Years later WH admits that was wrong but part of me wonders why common sense compassion seems beyond him? I think WH doesn't realize I have reached my breaking point. I don't plan on discussing divorce with him until I have the financial stability to file and follow through. At that point I will alert him so he can hire his lawyer as well. The amount of detachment I feel right now is amazing. If he were to walk out the door right now and say he will only come around for picking up the kids for his visits I would feel only relief. That's a HUGE change from before.

Bluwave,
It's taken a long time to reach this place but like the turtle, I finally got there. WH has a very low emotional IQ, I have two MC who've said the same thing. Can someone change from that? I have no idea. My main fear is how WH will treat our kids when they are older and more discerning. He doesn't react well to people calling him on his BS, he deflects and attacks. As far as the Four horsemen go, he uses stone walling, defensiveness, contempt and criticism...all of them. I have a huge problem with criticism and I am trying to work on that.

J5K,
I am getting there. My sleep is improving and I find myself ruminating less. Thank you for your words.

I will probably do some GAL tonight, my cousin is in a play and I plan on seeing it. I am going to go all out, I am dressing up, make up and perfume. Why? Just 'cuz, lol!

WH came to me today and said he wants to talk about us. He asked to schedule this talk tonight after the kids are in bed.

My thought, What us?

I read the posts of Blu wave and 25 and I fully agree with.

Don't try to mind read his outbursts that's a loss of time, it just a expression of their narcissist behavior, they see themselves as perfect so de facto they cannot bear to be criticized in any ways or showed they are incorrect specially coming from us the LBS.

Also, their outburst help them to "control" us, they know that we fear to lose them (since we didn't leave even after the way they treated us), so it's a way to affirm their domination on us and avoid the changes they don't want to make, they scream at us basically to shut us off. The more you are trying to negotiate the more they will keep going on, controlling that behavior is also part of the boundaries. My WH used to do that he still does from time to time, but now I just look at him and tell him, that form of twisted controlling behavior to justify his outburst is over and has not effect of me (basically the message I am willing to work on our relationship but if you don't change I will file for divorce and won't be shy to explain to people why) and I demand being addressed with respect and without any foul language because that's verbal abuse.

Piecing is not accepting poor behavior from WH in order to have him stayed, it just reinforced bad behavior, piecing is showing him that you love him but you won't tolerate being disrespected and you need to be ready to enforced boundaries, that talk about boundaries has to be done, I had one with WH, I listed my big NO NO and what he should modified if he wanted to stay in the family home, otherwise his suitcase was going to be delivered to his office with a hotel reservation stapled to it.

Did he try sometimes to reverse to his old patterns, yes, but I made sure to remind him of what we agreed upon and that the door was open.

Also, he told me what he disliked about my behavior (hey, nobody is perfect), and I made the necessary changes.

Piecing is a two-way street, if it's only a one way street, that's not piecing that's just accepting an unbalanced relationship which down the road will turn ugly again most probably. Reinforcing bad behavior had never a happy ending.

Wow Sky, you hit the nail on the head. I think I jumped to "piecing" and it wasn't, it was me so desperate to keep him that I was willing to settle for whatever he would give. Not anymore.

Last night we talked for 3.5 hours. WH was awkward and kind of verbally stumbled saying he wasn't sure what to say but he wanted us to just talk. Color me shocked, this guy avoids relationship conversations since we first married. I told him point blank I had already spoken to a lawyer and there was no way to have a separation agreement in Florida, it was divorce or nothing. When I mentioned divorcing him so casually he looked a bit surprised. A few time she mentioned that we were just a bad match and I shouldn't try to twist myself into a pretzel for him. I told I wasn't anymore, that I had given up and had embraced a future without him. I told him I would be fine and looked forward to dressing up nice for someone else, that I was excited to find someone to show the new, improved Sara too.

WH was taken aback and said he felt I deserved better than him, I agreed. The tone changed and WH said we should take it one day at a time and see where it leads. I told him I was just moving forward and I just couldn't be bothered to try anymore. We then talked a lot about where we both went wrong in marriage. He started to criticize my personality and I shut that down. I told him he needed to clean up his own backyard. I told him I saw no real change in him and I was done trying to change myself. If he wasn't changing after all this mess then I was not motivated to try and work on myself to make him happy. Weirdly enough our conversation ended nicely.

This morning when WH woke he looked awful, he admitted to only getting about an hour of sleep. That was VERY weird as he has slept like a baby since this whole awful affair BD. Meanwhile I am usually the one losing sleep and tossing and turning. Last night I slept like the dead and had a great day at work. The saga continues.

Bravo Sarah, so proud of you.
You gave him a him a reality check that he needed. You stated your position and reinforce your boundaries.

You reclaimed your power. Guess what, someone can only point a gun at you once and threaten to shoot. If they don't pull the trigger, it isn't much of a threat the next time. When I stopped caring about whether my H filed (another raging narcissist), I reclaimed my power and I have felt better ever since. You will too.

You go girl! So proud and happy to hear how confident you are. Will continue to pray that the saga continues for a positive outcome.

(((Sara))) I am so proud of you. You are a shining example of what happens after the hard work of 180s, GAL, and self reflection; the natural consequence is detachment. When detachment genuinely starts--not the pretending or forcing--they do notice! The energy is finally shifting as you are finding your power and no longer doing/saying things to get a reaction from him. You are well on your way!

He sees you detaching, getting stronger, and planning a life without him. And it is giving him pause. ... Will he change, self reflect, and commit to the M? I have no idea, but until he shows you that--with consistent actions over time--I would say keep on keepin on, sister!

XOXO
Blu

Hi Sara

Just wanted to pop over so you know I have you in my thoughts.

I hope you are getting somewhere with all of this. It's tricky isn't it.

Surfer.

Wow. Bravo!

Hello friends! It's been an interesting week with a lot of developments between WH and I. I continue to be detached, and I mean truly, emotionally detached; meanwhile WH is pursuing. The funny thing is, I am not feeling that "high" I felt in the past when WH appeared to be coming around. He's relapsed so many times that I am keeping my guard up and moving forward. I am backing off asking him to move out as I really have no legal leg to stand on while we're married.

Throughout the week WH has asked about my health, joked with me, and even asked me twice to have a R conversation. One time I had one but the other time I told him I needed a break. This is a HUGE 180 for me as I used to chase, chase, chase the R talks. Now I feel very neutral about having them. Last night I got a call from work about an admission (my On Call night) and was walking through the living room giving orders (WH had dozed off on the couch and I had been sleeping in bed) and WH woke up. He asked me to sit by him and we had a long, languid talk. Then we...ML.

What can I say, I hadn't had sex in over a month and had a hunger. The weird thing was afterward I felt fine but WH followed me to bed and cuddled me. I uh...read a book. lol! Today he kissed my face multiple times before going to work and I spent the day home relaxing with the kids. I had no impulse to text him, check on him or pursue. When WH came home he asked about my health again and we talked about dinner. I ordered in delivery and now I am chilling on my laptop while WH watches one of the Bourne movies.

What's the future hold for us? I have no idea and I am utterly at peace with it. If we end up divorcing it will be okay, I will be okay. I've never really felt this at peace before, it's bone deep. I still think about the affair but there is a softening in me, WH messed up so bad but there is no going back and fixing it. Now I am not afraid to tell him my boundaries, if it angers him then that's his problem. But no more doormat, no more eggshells, if he leave then he leaves.

You go, girl! I knew you had this all along. You are so VERY strong, as a woman, a wife, a mother, a doctor...... keep doing what you're doing. Mainly though, self check all along and make sure you're the focus, and that you'll be OK no matter the outcome of this marriage. I'm so proud of you!!! OH, AND HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!

Thanks Leah!

Things continue to unroll in this weird limbo. The difference is I just don't feel anxious anymore. If he threatens to leave then I will smile gently and help him pack and open the door. I just stopped caring and I can't pinpoint the exact moment. Was it a mixture of the last year and a half of disrespect or my recent health issues? I can't answer that questions.

But I've started really enjoying my children more, feeling the sun on my skin, the air through my hair, I enjoy my various interests again. Life is good. I enjoy my work again and feel satisfaction at the end of each day. I have reached one of my highest goals, to work as a doctor, have a healthy family and spend each evening home with my children. If WH cannot fox himself and join this wonderful circle of love and happiness then I will have to move forward without him. And that's okay.

We've ML two more times and I am starting to act like a dude. Afterward I tell him good night and conk out. :lol: Before I used to ponder over if he felt anything for me, was he feeling connected to me? Was I enough to satisfy him? Now I realize that he will only be able to love me like I deserve if he can face his deep seated issues and conquer them. It really has nothing to do with me, this twisted road he is walking down. It's so freeing.

Hi Sara, im glad you've reached the stage where you are. A stage i think we all must come to in the end no matter how different our paths were to get there.

No plans for a girls weekend away? I found out treating yourself every now and then can be great.

My weekends are for spending times with the wee ones. I try to get out with friends around once or twice a month. Given working full time and then having three small ones kind of makes my "me" time very limited. But that's okay, I enjoy my kids.

WH went out for a bike ride yesterday while I was at work. When he came home he was quiet and distracted. Rather than tiptoe around him and try to mind read I told him pointblank that he appeared distracted. He looked at me and said, "You think so?" I told him that I knew him fairly well and there was something heavy on his mind. Here's where the infidelity colors everything...my mind immediately went to affair stuff and if he had crossed a boundary again. He says, "I know I need to build trust so I am going to be honest about today." My heart was pounding so loud I could barely hear him. He continues, " I felt bad about going for such a long bike ride and so I rushed home so I wouldn't be too late. I was gong almost 100 mph and got pulled over and now I have a ticket for $300."

Honestly I almost laughed with relief. While I told him gently that I did not want him to drive that fast as he could get killed but that a ticket was no big deal. I fear I am not as detached as I thought if the thought of him crossing boundaries makes me so on edge. Today WH texted me, "Thinking of you :)" I was surprised as this is very out of character for him. I texted back to him to be careful while riding today and "Don't bring home any homeless bikes." He was laughing because he's been oogling pics online of Ducatis and Harleys and Indians. He texted back that I am lucky there isn't a bike rescue or we'd be in trouble.

When I got home we decided to take it easy tonight and took the kids to IHOP for dinner. The kids had a great time and a full belly. We got home and I did the bath/homework/bedtime routine. WH just took them to bed to lay next to them while they doze off. Where are we in relationship? I don't think of this as piecing but it's not the feeling of limbo either. Honestly I don't care what the stage of...whatever it is we're doing but I am relaxed and happy so, who cares?

Dear Sara,

You are really detached, so proud of you!

Wow, did you notice how good it feels when you realize that you are Ok and somehow in peace if he wants to leave... and how his attitude switched somehow, why? because he realized that his power and his manipulations on you are over, you are now waterproof, he became somehow conscious (a tiny bit) that whatever the decision/action he will have to take will be based on what he really wants and not on what "he did because he was pushed to do" (wake up call to reality). You removed yourself as an excuse to his future actions. That's something scary for them, you "shook" his way of thinking. The more detached I became, the more "clingy" my H became and lately he has been saying how "a great wife I am, how lucky he is" (his cheaters/divorced friends are not really happy with their lives, they were at the beginning but now it seems that they realized that the grass was not that green on the other side of the fence), somedays I think he is scared I might do the same of what he did (he is always finding an excuse to call me to figure out where I am... and I am not answering my phone all the time...), that the last thing on my mind, I am just happy to have regained confidence in myself, my boss gave me a big raise and more days off when I went to tell him I wanted a sabbatical year.

"I am worth it" is my new motto, my kids love it.

Now don't expect him to have a big epiphany anytime soon, it's more a very slow awakening with a few step back from time to time, it seems they want/try to test us to evaluate their power, somehow they hate to have to comply to rules to stay in the family home after experienced that exhilarating freedom and all those "good feelings", it takes time for them to become conscious it was lust not love, it was fantasy not reality.

Stay firm on your position and boundaries and DO NOT hesitate to state them from time to time and reinforce them. You will be tested on them, when I don't know but you will.

Please don't have any R soon, he needs to understand that you are DONE and you need more than a few words to reconsider/give a thought about your situation if that what you might want.

Become mysterious for your own good, the less he will be aware of your life outside him (keep details to the minimum) the better it will be for you, you need your own privacy , build your own "happy place" with your kids and friends. Find happiness again and thrive. Live your life, stop letting what he did to you entrave your life in the "now", and rebuild your self esteem. Your worth is not related to him, your worth is what you will make of your life. Think of him as an accessory, nice to have but not necessary. You need that to protect your own heart and mind in case he decides to file for divorce or if you have to ask him to leave. Piecing is a marathon, a very long one and the success is not guarantee, so don't waste your heart and mind, keep them protected. It doesn't mean you stop loving/caring for him, but you refuse to have that feeling determine your own level of happiness.

I am so happy that you are finally finding happiness in your daily life, it means that your mind is not focused only on him and your relationship anymore, it's a sign of real detachment.

Sorry for being so late to post but graduation is around the corner, so many things to take care, also one of my kids is going to States, and I had a recurrent health issue to take care of ...

Big Hugs

Just saw you last post, I was typing while you posted. It took me a while, my daughter changed her graduation party "wishes" again... she said now "mom you can do as you want". One week ago it was "you don't get it, listen to me...". MLC taught me to be patient and detached, lol, so useful with teenagers.

Hey Sky! Sounds like you have your own hands full. Enjoy these milestones and savor a job well done as a parent.

I am irritated today. Two weeks ago I let WH know I was submitting out notice to leave our rental by June 19th, when the lease was up. Not a peep from him. Last week I told him I wass scheduling the carpet cleaners to come on June 17th and that I planned on having the entire house moved a week before that. Again, he just nodded. So I scheduled that as well. Tonight I was going through movers and decided given our super hectic schedules that I would hire folks that would pack and move us. I originally was thinking about packing myself but there simply isn't enough time.

WH said he preferred for us to extend the lease to then end of the month so we could "pack here and there." I gave an exasperated sigh as I have already scheduled the carpet cleaners, the walk through and the move out day. He immediately became argumentative and acted like the victim, "Never mind, I can already see you're not willing to consider my POV." So I asked him (with some frustration in my voice) to explain why we should delay it. He kept saying we could pack some stuff here and there. Now keep in mind this guy has NEVER packed anything. I spend weeks ahead of time packing everything before moving day. So I know a delay will simply be procrastinating a mad rush of me doing everything by myself again. Of course afterward WH went into his stone walling behavior and stared at the tv muted. Why muted? Who the hell knows, so we could sit in awkward silence. I just finished up cleaning the kitchen (I cooked dinner) bathing and getting the kids read for bed and now I am sitting here typing with irritation.

It's moments like this when I ask myself why am I married to this guy? He is lazy, procrastinates, makes promises and then "forgets." I end up being the only grown up in the relationship and continue to be so.

Wow, that's PA behavior...
He expects that you do you own moving with 3 small kids and a full time job!
May be you should give him a nice ultimatum, "if we are getting too busy may be we should reconsider hiring a company to move, remember also I had some heart issues and it's to my best interest to be careful, so unless you do all the packing I am not sure I can help/do it that time.

Sky,
WH is the kind of procrastination, he will put things off until the last minute and then wonder why I am so stressed out. This was just more of the same for him.

I am in NY for the weekend staying at a colleagues place while visiting another colleague who is terminally ill and probably going to be passing away soon. When I was a resident we had a tightly knit group. It was majority male and I call them my brothers. Well one of those "brothers" found out he has pancreatic cancer and now he is fading fast. He was in the ICU for the last 2 weeks and they stepped him down to regular floors yesterday. He looks like a skeleton with skin. Earlier this month I texted all the other "brothers" and we all came to visit him yesterday for 2 hours. By the end of the visit he was drifting to sleep but seemed very happy we came. My heart was just broken into a million pieces, he is in his 30s and is graduating from his fellowship next week. He will likely not be able to attend his own graduation.

WH knows this colleague but was unable to get this weekend off as he is scheduled to work. Initially WH wanted constant texts and calls to speak to me. He seemed almost clingy and wanting assurance that I was thinking of him. However he cooled considerably by the night time last night and was short and mumbling. I was puzzled but didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I stayed up late playing board games with my friends and slept like the dead. Now I am drinking homemade chai and planning the day visiting more friends.

Sorry about your friend, but glad you are finally having some time for yourself. Keep planning your own activities and visiting friends, you need that positive network. I noticed that the more I reconnected with friends, the happier I became.

I am so proud of you, Sarah, you changed so much since I read your posts last year. You have mastered the art of Detachment. That's road was not easy, to be frank, I don't think that is easy for anybody, we learned through our trials and mistakes, they made us stronger and wiser.

Originally Posted By: skyhigh

THIS is where I thought I was, but I wasn't. I'm going to try to go there now. One day you feel OK, and the world is your oyster. The next day, or hour, or minute, your emotions drive you backwards. It's all a journey.

Sky,
Thank you for the constructive comments, it really helps when someone points out progress as sometimes it feels like I haven't really made any. Today my stomach is a ball of nerves because I am going home and detachment is always more difficult with WH in my presence.

Leah,
I still have roller coaster feelings but the difference is I have learned not to jump and react to my feelings. Feelings are transient and if you sit on them for a bit then they pass. This weekend is case in point. While I am with friends and doing things I don't even think of the disaster that became my marriage, but now that I am going back home I am back to an anxious ball.

This weekend has been a blessing and a curse. Seeing my friend was sort of a pivotal point in my mind. His wife was by his bed (and has been for months now) and you can see the love between them. Of course I went back to the last 1.5 years while I was being hospitalized for my heart and WH's barely emotional presence during that time. I also started thinking about the fact that I am 40 years old, still have my looks and energy and how I am not sure if I want to gamble that away while waiting for WH to come around and be the husband I need. I am extremely close to becoming a WAS. I have even pictured sitting down with WH and telling him I am going to file and we need to start discussing the logistics of divorce. I am >thisclose< and only the thought of the pain it may cause the kids holds me back. Frankly I feel they are already experiencing pain from our dysfunctional marriage so it seems 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. So talk to me, my friends. Tell me why I should not do this. I am just so exhausted from waiting on WH to show true, deep remorse. He still does not go to IC, will not go to MC, doesn't even read any books. He has poor boundaries and I have this deep feeling he will cheat again in the future because he has not examined and repaired what is wrong in him that makes him cheat.

I totally get as it's more easy to be detached while being away from them because while they are here even if we are detached we still need to control our emotions and reactions. Being detached doesn't stop us from anger or sorrow but like you said we learned on how not to act upon them and not to let them go further into our mind/heart.

It's obvious that your H is still very ambivalent in his behavior (texting other women, not really caring for you when you are not feeling well...), it doesn't care about the boundaries that you asked, and somehow you didn't really enforce them, so why do you want him to change? He has his cake and he can eat too. He is is nice for a few days when you catch him doing something "not nice or appropriate" then he goes back to his old way, it seems he just wants to make just to have his power back on you and then here he goes again. Sorry for the 4'X4'.

Now, it takes time for the MLCers to change but unless they show little by little but steady improvement, you should start to be concerned to his real will to commit to your relationship. If you had to assess his behavior/position now in regard of 4/5 months ago, what conclusions do you think you would come up with? Only you can answer that question?

In the past when your guts were telling you something, were they wrong or right? I have to admit my guts usually were right, but I dismissed them a lot until I decided to listen to them. What are those little red flags or those unseen feelings bothering you? Don't dismiss them, try to look at them with a rational mind, like a detective. Remember they lied to us, so even if you ask a question, don't take his answer as the "right" one. If you feel something is not right, you might be right.

Kids are very sensitive to the mood of their parents, I stayed at first for the kids after OW2 (I was done with him and kind of disgusted) and I stated my boundaries and the consequences in a very clear manner since he said he was going to change (I was more than skeptical and I had no trust at all). After a while, he showed that he was really changing and not going back to his old behavior (I was still very skeptical and experiencing those anger waves, still zero trust in him), then I decided to stay because his changes had positive effects on our relationship and the kids. Is everything perfect? No, but there are much better than the last 5/7 years. If he didn't have changed I would probably have filed, because living with somebody that is not respectful and you cannot trust, is not sustainable in the long run, it wears you down mentally, walking on egg shells and accepting "bad" behavior is not a good example for the kids, it brings down the road issues about self esteem and how you want to be treated. Remember kids model what they experience and see, so if one model is not "appropriate", it might become an issue very quickly and it's best to remove that negative model. Here again, only you can judge and assess your situation and how it might impact your family.

May be the best way, it's to give yourself a dateline and have a conversation about your expectations in a very clear manner, after that assess his reactions/words/decisions and decide what is the best for you. I know my H started to change (wake up call) only because he knew that I was done, really done and unless he was going to change for good not for a few months, I was going to file, I told him I had already a lawyer and everything set up... He couldn't manipulate me anymore with feelings, his power/influence on me was gone, I stood up for my dignity and my rights. Something in me was so determined that he understood that was for real and words were not going to work, only real changes and actions. That's just my story, each story is different.

Sometimes you need to be ready to let it go fully to have changes to happen and if they doh't happen it means that you are better without that person. Don't aim for less than what you deserve, always aim high.

Hope you, you are not too mad at me but I talked to you as my dear friends talked to me when I was in the "hole" of despair or didn't know what to do. They walked me through each steps, they didn't tell me what to do, they just open my eyes and my mind on little things and let me draw my own conclusions, they push me to brainstorm my feelings and my position on different subjects, they supported me through whatever my choices were (knowing it was my life and not their, even if they went though that ordeal too). They listened to me when I was exploring my options and they made sure that my critical thinking was on.

Mad at you?Heck no, why would I be mad at someone offering gentle and loving guidance? I've read over your post a few times and let the words marinate in my head. I think I am surpassing detachment and sailing right on into apathy. lol! I am going through the motions but honestly have stopped feeling that "rush" whenever WH appears to be turning around. I just don't trust anything he does anymore. He's cake eating and I am trying to decide just how long I am willing to stand around waiting for him to wake up.

Thinking about D'ing him no longer brings the rush of panic. I can easily picture a future without him as my husband and aside from some sadness I am okay. The more I think about what he did the more I wonder if he is even capable of giving me the love I deserve? His inability (or unwillingness) to empathize with the amount of pain he has inflicted on me still sticks in my craw. He just really doesn't seem to get it. I am not sure he ever will. I ask myself if I divorced him tomorrow, what would it change? Well, the messes I clean up would me my own and the kids, I wouldn't feel resentful he doesn't pull his load around the house, and I wouldn't care who he is texting. In a lot of ways I would be free. So how do I enforce boundaries when I am unable to file for divorce right now?

It's tricky because we actually are getting on ok from day-to-day. We are affectionate, we joke, we go over the moving and logistics. He transferred a big sum of money into my account a few days ago while I was shopping for a puppy. But I feel this HUGE wall between us, I can't "connect" with him on a deep level. How can you when the person who has wounded you worse than any other human can't be bothered to read a book about boundaries, or attend a weekend intensive or go to MCing? I can't. Because he is saying with his actions that my feelings don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

I fantasize about being with a man who treasures me and wants to talk about our feelings and needs. A man who is as eager to make me happy as I am him. But instead I am with the man who has a low emotional IQ and can't see past his own issues. Sigh.

Originally Posted By: PsySara

This weekend has been a blessing and a curse. Seeing my friend was sort of a pivotal point in my mind. His wife was by his bed (and has been for months now) and you can see the love between them. Of course I went back to the last 1.5 years while I was being hospitalized for my heart and WH's barely emotional presence during that time. I also started thinking about the fact that I am 40 years old, still have my looks and energy and how I am not sure if I want to gamble that away while waiting for WH to come around and be the husband I need. I am extremely close to becoming a WAS. I have even pictured sitting down with WH and telling him I am going to file and we need to start discussing the logistics of divorce. I am >thisclose< and only the thought of the pain it may cause the kids holds me back. Frankly I feel they are already experiencing pain from our dysfunctional marriage so it seems 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. So talk to me, my friends. Tell me why I should not do this. I am just so exhausted from waiting on WH to show true, deep remorse. He still does not go to IC, will not go to MC, doesn't even read any books. He has poor boundaries and I have this deep feeling he will cheat again in the future because he has not examined and repaired what is wrong in him that makes him cheat.

Hello Sara,

I'm so sorry about your friend. I'm glad you were able to visit and reconnect with your "brothers"

Now would be a good time to reconnect with your DB Coach. It will be enormously helpful to get some clarity on your goals. Please call me at 303-444-7004 to schedule a session.

Regards,
Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

Just as a suggestion, I know it helps me it's to reread ...it brought some perspective on the phases/stages post replay stage and the length of each of them,

As LBS, we are so tired of that mess that we want the things to improve fast and also we have some kind of "expectations" how the MLCers should behave after they decided to stay. So reading again, those stages and the articles she wrote helps me to have a better understanding that the journey was far from being over and that my expectations didn't match reality. I had to review them, reviewing doesn't mean to lower them but it means that the path to reach them might be longer and different.

The MLCer is still very conflicted in his mind in that phase post replay and he has to grieve what he could have done, weird isn't it? Weird for us but reality for them, they have to realize that their dreams of freedom, new love and whatever they had in mind, won't materialize and they messed up instead.

I am not trying to excuse your H behavior in any way, I am just trying to provide you with tools to evaluate where your relationship stands. Tools are nice when you navigate that storm. They help to assess if the behavior can be connected to the post replay phase or not. Basically, if that MLCer is on the right path to recovery or not. Their way of thinking is not the same as the one we think it should be.

I totally share your frustration, I went through that, just a few months ago after some progress he went backward again for a few weeks then forward again. That journey is nerve wrecking. I was ready to give up so many times, so only you can know what's best for you and when. Whatever is your decision it should be yours only.

My H refused to do any kind of counseling but he is very open about his schedule, he keeps me aware of any changes, and a few other things, so I didn't get the counseling I was expecting but I got plenty of actions/changes from his part that are making feel respected, safe and cared for. Men are not really into words but rather into actions.

Keep venting it's good for you, venting helps to sort out whatever you have on your mind. I used to vent to a friend for one hour almost every day, not anymore but it helps to keep me sane and to make decisions or to defer some.

Thank you for your in depth post, Sky, your words are always so helpful and soothing. It helped to read about your husband's willingness to give access to his life. Honestly if I asked for complete access to WH's phone, computer etc,., he would give it. But little things bother me, like he had a secret burner phone when he reignited the affair. I have this hopeless feeling that no matter how "transparent" he is it will never be enough after finding out easily he can sneak.

So I keep bumping back into this problem, can I forgive this man who hurt me more than any other person...twice?! What if I am not strong enough to overcome this? What if it's a deal breaker? I find such large amounts of resentment, rage, anger, hurt and disgust bubbling up. I find I can't feel respect for him. How can you love someone you can't respect?

This weekend I bought two French bulldogs for my kids, they are ecstatic. It's helped keep me focused on other things as WH has withdrawn again. He is snappy and distant, of course if I asked him about it he would deny. He went out for a motorcycle ride for a few hours and I had friends over to visit the new puppies. Again I feel this huge chasm between us. We are moving to the new house next weekend and it will likely be HUGELY stressful. I think I am going to wait until after the move to touch base with WH and ask what we're doing. He still doesn't say ILY, he doesn't show physical affection outside of sexual contact. He does text me more often, comes for lunch on his days off and eats dinner with the family. What's wrong with me? Why am I not jumping for joy?

Sarah, I think what you are experiencing right now with anger, resentment, rage, and... is a normal reaction, you are hitting your anger phase post replay. May be speaking with a IC might help you.

It's normal to have lost respect and trust in them after what they did, if we didn't we will be a fool. They need to earn them back by their actions. Meanwhile they are dealing with ambivalence. So the MLCer and the LBS are watching each other trying to decide "should I stay or should I go". That period is nerve wrecking, because nothing is happening, but somehow we need that phase where things are finally very quiet to sort out our feelings. the best way of dealing with that phase, is just to do nothing which is not easy.

Use that phase to focus on you and not him, let him sort out what he wants so hold on on any R conversation. That huge chasm is caused by ambivalence, there is nothing you can do about it, their silence and long periods of withdrawal are just the signs that they are having long conversations within themselves.

It's way to early to think about forgiveness, forgiveness is something you feel inside you that not something you force yourself into it. It's the end of a long personal process.

Hey Sara, just checking on you! How are things going?

Wow! I've been MIA recently, apologies to anyone still following my thread. So updates:

I've continued to just let go of the rope and detach from WH. He in turn became more withdrawn. I moved us into our new house and did 90% of all the work myself. After everything was unpacked and sorted I asked for a talk. WH and I have agreed to schedule talks ahead of time so the other doesn't feel blindsided. I straight up asked WH where we were in the state of our marriage. He said he loves me, even thinks he may be in love with me but he still feels he has to work at it every day. I told him I was feeling about done with us and that I was very unhappy with our marriage. I told him I still didn't feel like he was 100% in our marriage and that I can't feel safe with him. I told him I would probably start the divorce process at the end of the month. He showed no emotion and basically said it was my choice.

The next two days I felt relief and made it clear with WH I was done. Strangely enough he started approaching me and mentioning how much he appreciated me, how beautiful I am and how he was starting to realize what he was about to lose. I was laid back and easy with him, there just wasn't any pressure anymore. The more detached I became the more he pursued me. He started texting me, asking about m work day, spending time to talk with me. In short, speaking my LL which is Quality Time.

He doesn't know this but I have decided to hold off on the D proceedings. The jury is still out because I am looking for consistency but he has started to look at me differently since the whole A thing happened. I catch him looking at me when I am occupied, he will sometimes start to comment about how much he is starting to realize what he has in me but quickly catches himself and looks pained. I no longer react or watch his emotional barometer.

If I had a time machine and could do things all over again I would have detached much more effectively. I have come to realize that my desire to "make him get it" was really about my desire to have the illusion of control. The fact is, we can't control others, we have to let them make their own mistakes. We have to stop attaching our sense of worth and happiness off their opinions and screw ups. My WH cheated because deep down he does not have adult coping mechanisms. The other night he admitted he had an affair just to "feel happy" but it ended up making him feel worse. He tells me he barely thinks of the affair anymore, I told him it crosses my mind everyday. He says that's because I was so hurt and betrayed, he fully admitted he would never feel what I felt but that was impossible. All he could do was do better.

WH and I had lunch today. I find we joke a lot now, we don't have to fill our time with stuff. We don't have to struggle to understand every.single.thing about each other. We can just be. I still have ups and downs when something triggers me but I have learned to start self soothing. Will WH ever be part of that healing? I am not sure. For now I don't trust him with my heart yet. I may end up being one of those people who can't "get over" the affair. If so then I will simply move forward alone.

Sara! I was thinking about you today and hoping you would come along. ... And where is that Cherry girl?

What a great update. You have come so, so far in this journey. I think you are right on target. You are so correct in that we cannot control others, but we grasp on to the illusion of control. You are detaching, learning to self soothe, and have decreased your expectations. So the natural consequence is that your H feels you slipping away, while simultaneously observing your strengths/growth. You and your story are the living example of what we try and get all the newcomers to see It is very hard to explain but eventually we all make sense of it to some extent.

I understand what you mean about the time machine. Isn't it human nature though to experience something and then want to go back to do it "better" or the "right way." While you can't do that, what you CAN do is keep reminding yourself what truly worked and what didn't. And by "worked" I don't mean what switched your pursuer/distancer dynamic, but what worked in achieving your personal goals. I have always admired the way you put your faults on the table and then challenge yourself to make changes. That is success (and very difficult).

It's hard to explain to people how things shift, the instincts we have about our partners, and how ones perspective can change over time. I find myself not knowing how to articulate points because so much of this is an energy that is hard to explain. I like the energy happening here in your world :-) I see so much good coming your way. I hope for his sake he can stay on a better path too. You have become the catch that only a FOOL would leave.

:-)
Blu

I don't want to disclose too much about my real information but I am in Florida too.

I am in a similar situation although on a much shorter timeline. My WW just doesn't want to work on saving the marriage but hope she feels better about that. She too doesn't want to cut the cord to OM and says they are just friends now. I told her it's hard giving her space when I know this is going on.

I am not ready to call it quits but I cannot keep going on like this much longer. It doesn't help that she doesn't drive and we work at the same place. I think she really is trying but it's very hard to be patient when I know there is someone else involved. She says he isn't like a BF and cannot see him in that role.

Great job at telling him that you were done, and when it's the truth, they can feel it, it's not something you can fake. You became the distancer. When my husband understood I was really done (there was something about my attitude), he started to change because he wanted to not because I was asking. Changes have to come from them, it's a very long and slow process. Results show in months not in weeks, so patience.

Being done doesn't mean you don't love him anymore but simply you don't want to put up with that situation as it is unless there is a fundamental change.

It takes time for limerence to go away fully (you will know when it's fully over something will change in his attitude, he will be more open), meanwhile become his best friend, his companion, men crave companionship, I noticed that my husband' divorced friends (they were the cheaters and wanted their freedom), from being "happy" to be single and dating are now craving a caring loving companionship... they are complaining how lonely they are... really! My H is now giving them relationship advice as" find a nice caring woman of your own age and marry her". I laughed so much when he told me that..

Companionship is not being clingy but being available when they need to talk, watching TV, and giving them positive feedback. I decided to said yes to every activities he proposed (even if some were not really my taste and where taking time away from my GAL activities),and stayed very positive, the change was quite amazing, he became attentive and caring to me, he lowered the wall he had in him.

It's normal not trusting him with your heart, it's way too early to trust again, so stop obsessing about that, the same about forgiveness. Live in the present!

(((Hugs)))

Hello friends! I've been peeking in and reading everyone's posts but have been so busy I haven't had time to respond. I'll cut to the chase and give updates.

Since I made it clear with WH I was done and probably going to talk to a lawyer (and meant it!) he has done some serious changes. HE texted me the next day, "Thank you for giving me a chance, I know it's been hard and I am trying to change. You are worth fighting for." Since then he has been very engaged with the kids and me. He also has been pitching in a LOT more around the house. One of the hardest jobs is taking care of the pets in the morning at 6 am. WH loves his sleep and I am often up for hours before he gets out of bed. Well yesterday I awoke to the puppies being fed, the guinea pigs fed and the cats fed. We are still potty training our puppies and WH had already cleaned their area and sanitized it. My jaw fell open because this was at 6 am on a Saturday.

Earlier this week WH asked me to meet him at a fireworks tent and he bought a ton of fireworks for the 4th, he contacted the neighbors and we spent the latter part of the evening shooting them off. We also enjoyed a bar-b-que with friends where WH cooked everything. I find myself more relaxed around him. The triggers are not as intense and often. When they happen he has become more attentive and asking if I need anything. We started watching a new show, America gods, and the very first episode involves infidelity. I was blunt with WH telling him that the show was intriguing but it was really hard for me to watch that particular part. He immediately asked if I wanted to turn it off. I assured him I could watch it but I may need some breaks now and then. It looks like WH has started to understand empathy and how to show it.

I am still holding WH at arm's length. I still feel he needs a lot more progress before I feel comfortable being around my vulnerable side. But we've taken a turn and it appears to be one for the better.

So there have been some significant changes in WH's behavior. He continues to be attentive and asks me daily how I am doing. Our physical contact is more often and WH seeks to touch me. Of course I still struggle with triggers and ruminating thoughts but the frequency is less as well as the intensity of emotion.

We have been scheduling more time together and we communicate more throughout the day through text. He gets up with the baby at night and has told me he wants us to start going to the gym together. I am still VERY pulled back and cautious. He has burnt me more times than I can count so I am carefully observing his actions and watching for consistency. It's taken almost 2 years but I think I am starting to see the birth of a relationship that may work. We still have a LOT of work to do but I think there is hope.

Dear Sara

Thank you so much for your posts. I haven't read the whole story only a few pages of this thread but it is very enlightening for me and I fully intend to go right back and read your whole story. You're perseverance and honesty is admirable. I am just short of a month into this journey with other significant issues going on in my life that have nothing to do with my H, his A & MLC but your post has totally inspired me, not necessarily for my M but for myself and I really needed that tonight.

Thank you again
SJ x

SJW,
I am glad that my posts have been able to help someone. If nothing, I hope my stumbles and mistakes will help someone not make the same ones.

So WH and I continue the on-again-off-again dance. Last week we fought because I told him I didn't feel prioritized. He continues to act selfishly and often times I am saddled with all the household and child care. This of course spiraled into an argument where he stopped talking to me for a few days which is his main defense mechanism, stonewalling. Somehow the affair came up and he told me he still blames me for him cheating because I was "different" before the affair.

Since then we've "made up" but this really sits in my chest. Almost two years out and he still does not look inward and have some honesty and accountability about his cheating. We had problem before he cheated and I had requested MC as I saw we were continually dealing with the same problems but he refused. I continually have to face the fact that WH hasn't really done anything to be trustworthy to me, he still has poor boundaries, he refuses to go to IC or even read a book. He still has snapchat on his phone (known cheaters tool) and says he'll delete it when he's "ready." I have come to a cross roads, do I stay or become the WAW? Daily I am with a man who has hurt in the most devastating way possible but has done very little of what I've asked to help heal. When the rubber meets the road he still has wayward thinking, blames shifts and shows no internal change from the cheater. So what do I do? I am happy with my life but not happy or even near satisfied in this marriage. I feel like he is complacent and hasn't done anything to "win" me back. Part of me just wants to move on and be open to a new person in my life. I can't exactly be receptive to a new relationship while married though. Forgive me while I flounder, I just didn't think my married life would be like this. I feel like I've been in crises mode for so long that I am unsure what peace looks like anymore.

Sara,

I'm sorry you are struggling. It ngs were turning around for you. Do you think the entitlement issues are perhaps a little worse with physicians? Mine has become a complete blow hard in the last few years and feels entitled to anything he wants. I know that you are also a physician and clearly not all are affected, but I'm wondering if the profession either breeds these behaviors or attracts them.

Wishing you well

Quote:

Somehow the affair came up and he told me he still blames me for him cheating because I was "different" before the affair.

I got the same thing last night. My wife talked about being "abandoned" during our marriage. I snapped back, I NEVER abandoned you. She said, "I meant abandoned emotionally". They love justifying it by blaming you.

Quote:

Since then we've "made up" but this really sits in my chest. Almost two years out and he still does not look inward and have some honesty and accountability about his cheating. We had problem before he cheated and I had requested MC as I saw we were continually dealing with the same problems but he refused. I continually have to face the fact that WH hasn't really done anything to be trustworthy to me, he still has poor boundaries, he refuses to go to IC or even read a book. He still has snapchat on his phone (known cheaters tool) and says he'll delete it when he's "ready." I have come to a cross roads, do I stay or become the WAW? Daily I am with a man who has hurt in the most devastating way possible but has done very little of what I've asked to help heal. When the rubber meets the road he still has wayward thinking, blames shifts and shows no internal change from the cheater.

My W had snapchat and whatsapp on her old phone. I noticed snapchat on her new phone, but she wound up deleting it without me asking. I think she knew that was trouble.

I feel for you, Sara. My W is miles ahead of your H when it comes to repairing things, but I still think she could do more. She stopped IC because she couldn't afford it. Yet, we have health insurance that covers different therapists - I switched therapists and was ok - but she refuses to change doctors. Says her current one validates her. (I personally don't think her IC got the whole story).

ANY issues brought up about her affair are met with her crying, upset that I brought it back, accusing me of living in the past, etc. My W worked with OM a full year after I discovered her A, and my poor excuse for a MC and my own IC said this was ok behavior. Only after seeing my new IC did he condemn this practice and help me force a change. When OM got promoted and he would be W's boss, that was it for me. Luckily, she resigned immediately that day. Yet, I recently found out that she visited there (months after she quit) and she completely justified it by saying OM wasn't there, she missed her old work colleagues, etc. And blame shifted me for snooping thru her phone. No ownership of poor boundaries, no admittance of anything wrong. Just angry at ME for snooping.

Frustrating. She constantly complains about validation, but where is mine? Wouldn't we LOVE to hear, "hey, I screwed up, NONE of it was your fault, I own this 100% and I'm so sorry I screwed up your life?"

The problem is, they do truly believe that some of it is not their fault. To get them to feel true remorse when they really don't feel it, is an almost impossible task.

I know personally form real life, those who have had affairs may have regretted hurting their spouse, but don't feel complete remorse for the affair itself. They would reconcile, but a fraction of a percentage would say "I am so sorry, I feel so awful, this was all my fault." They truly think that what they did when they did it was perhaps not justified, but not a lone action.

So I think it really comes down to what level of remorse are you willing to take. A "I really value our marriage and I won't do it again" while following through on transparency, or does it have to be someone validating what a F-up they are and how horrible and sorry they are for what they did?

because I am afraid if it is the latter, reconciliation isn't going to work.

OwnIt,
I'm going to generalize here but in my experience (anecdotal at best) it looks as if the male doctors are more prone to the narcissistic nature. The affairs I've read about are primarily the male doctor cheating with a female nurse. There was one case where the wife was a doctor and the husband was a SAHD and she cheated with a patient. But in the grand scheme I would say quite a few doctors are initially attracted to the field because of the built in adulation.

Thank you ForGump.

Stormchaser,
Thank you so much for your insight and experience, it helps me to realize I am not alone in this...kinda piecing? I have to remind myself that my WH spent decades practicing bad boundaries and avoidance so it's not like it's going to turn on it's head and change overnight. But sometimes I have to keep from putting a pillow on his head in his sleep, lol. My DB coach told me something once that has really stuck in my head. He said that anger is an unauthentic emotions, that it covers another scarier emotion like anger or fear. So when you WW reacted to your "snooping" by becoming angry it was likely a cover to deep fear that she was going to be "abandoned." My WH often feels my boundaries are me being "controlling" when I am telling him he us free to do as he pleases but I will not remain in this marriage if he crosses my boundaries. This isn't controlling as I am not trying to prevent his behavior but rather protecting myself from further injury.

Ginger,
Once I read a comparison between a Harry Potter character and a wayward spouse. Apparently there is a character in HP that has managed to store his soul in separate compartments so as to not feel the immense damage and pain he has caused others. If he reunites these parts of himself then he will fully feel the devastation he has wrought over the years. A cheater is like this, the courage to face the devastation they've caused the person they were supposed to shelter and protect is immense. Some simply can't pull their soul back together and face it, the pain would be crippling. So they continue to compartmentalize and express anger instead of turning inward and really examining their flaws.

So about two weeks ago WH and I had a huge blowup where I basically said I was sick of the state of our marriage. I told him I was DONE, that I was tired of feeling like the one who nuked our marriage and I had to "make up" for the shortcomings. I told him if he felt I was to blame for his cheating then he needed to leave. Initially WH was angry and hard, I told him again I was so done. I never pictured my life being this way and my marriage being this sh*tty. I wanted to be free of it, as I had put in an enormous amount of effort and felt nothing from him.

He was quiet for a moment then started talking very slowly and gently. He said he obviously hurt me very deeply and he didn't realize how seriously I was injured. He told me he knows I have changed hugely and how he feels I am his most precious part of his life. He apologized and said he would start working hard for this marriage. He requested that any time I am hurt or angry to bring it up immediately. We talked about 2 hours and later held each other. I cried a little and so did he.

Since then he has been attentive and constantly telling me how much I mean to him. I am still irritated and angry inside. I remind myself that I am likely covering the trauma and pain with anger because that is a safe emotion. I am not even sure what I want to get from him. He does ask me every day if there is something he can do for me. For now I simply tell him nothing as he doesn't own a time machine to go back and change everything. And that is a huge problem. I can never undo the immense amount of betrayal and deception he did. I can never get back the innocence of believing we were soul mates and we were made only for each other. There is a verse in the Quran that states "He created us in pairs" and I wanted that engraved in our wedding rings. It felt special as if we were made specifically for each other. I don't think I will ever be able to feel that way again, and that...breaks my heart. So I am kind of stuck right now, I appear to have a WH who is working toward remorse but now I am questioning if I can move forward from this or remain stuck.

PsySara

I have been rooting for you since the beginning. It looks like you're so close and yet so far.

Do you think taking a break, as a family, would be a good way of leaving behind all the emotional baggage, for a week? Time to create new, good memories, to replace the bad ones?

It sounds like you're emotionally exhausted. You need an emotional holiday from the situation, but not WH necessarily. A bit of family bonding time might remind you what you're doing this for and give you the motivation you need to hang off this cliff face for a tiny bit longer.

2016,
I've been negligent in posting all the day-to-day stuff going on. I've actually have spent about 90% of my time working on building happy memories for the family/kids. Recently I took WH away for a weekend at a bed and breakfast. We slept in, ate yummy food, watched a movie late at night and ML. On the way home WH was talking about how he wishes he could learn to fish. I ended up making him stop off at a hole-in-the-wall bait and tackle shop, bought some cheap rods and some tackle/bait and we spent the after noon fishing. We actually managed to catch a teeny-tiny fish.

Later on we started taking the kids fishing and have done that a few times. The house we bought earlier this year has a pool so we do that with the kids a few times a week as well. There are actually a lot of moments where I am really happy in the moment with my children and my WH. But sometimes I feel like we are building these memories on thin ice and it will sink as soon as WH finds a new, shiny distraction. (OW)

I find myself dealing with memories which intrude on these moments. For instance, we are coming up on one of our holidays called Eid Al-Adha. We only have 2 eids so they are big deal. Almost 2 years ago my WH was super distracted on his cell phone during this holiday, to the point where we went out to a special dinner with friends and they noticed it too. Later on when everything came out about the affair I found out he was texting OW. So even though we were with our kids, friends and supposedly celebrating a huge religious holiday he was bust chatting with her. He has since apologized about it but it just doesn't feel authentic. I am not sure what I am looking for but WH isn't giving it. I wish he would approach me and straight address this huge elephant in the room, that he would tell me how f*cked up he was to throw away his wife and children for a wh*re. Sigh. There's the anger surfacing again.

Sounds a bit like Blu's blue and the one TXHubby went through. I think it must be a stage for you guys who have to push through the betrayal.

Originally Posted By: PsySara

There's the anger surfacing again.

I do agree its the anger that makes healing so difficult.

I'm a bit like you in the sense that I find comfort in research and analysis. I started a list of restored marriages, just to see what things they had in common. Not from this forum.

This is what I've found:

1. The WS has to be repentant. Not just sorry they got caught, but remorseful for the pain they've caused. I think this is what ensures they won't do it again.

2. The WS is the one who comes back to the marriage and actively tries to engage the LBS. Probably prompted by 1.

The LBS adopted various stances - from loving encouragement (but not pursuit) to no contact. In all cases they were civil to openly affectionate. There was one case (look up Scruggs) where the LBH was borderline hostile/angry, and recovery took 7 years in that instance.

In the situations where the LBS and WS successfully reconciled (AFTER WS came cap in hand, asking for forgiveness), there was little evidence of anger.

Stands to reason if you can get rid of your anger, you get rid of your major road block to recovery.

The Christian model emphasizes forgiveness. Even if WH is unrepentant, you should, must even, forgive him. Forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation.

Forgiveness, authentic forgiveness, I think, means the dismissal of anger. I think you will continue to experience anger, but whether you express it or make any decisions based on it (like leaving the marriage), is a separate issue. In a lot of the cases I read about, the LBS stated they didn't feel anger, but in these cases they were heavily heavily propped up by their faith and rationalized their WS behaviour as being instigated by the devil. Hence their anger is directed at the devil only, not their WS who is viewed as an innocent taken captive by dark forces.

Maybe this is what you're struggling with - you can't forgive him?

I read somewhere that forgiveness means really, to GIVE like you did beFORE.

I don't know if I can forgive WH, but my need to address this is less urgent as he's not in my life.

2016...I haven't posted on this side in a while and for some reason felt the urge today. I now know why. Your words on forgiveness are awesome and true. None of us wanted to be here in this situation, but we are. Most of us here loved our spouses unconditionally for many, many years...decades for some. Just because the WS or the MLC'er has left, why would that change our unconditional love for them?

Forgiveness begins with us internally. We decide that we can and will forgive. Once we do that we have opened the first door that is needed, or at least might be needed by our spouse if they decide to come home. If we don't forgive we will stew in the negative memories and the anger. We should let go and let God guide us to forgiveness just as we have been forgiven.

I hope and pray all is well with you both.

Originally Posted By: SBJ

Forgiveness begins with us internally. We decide that we can and will forgive. Once we do that we have opened the first door that is needed, or at least might be needed by our spouse if they decide to come home. If we don't forgive we will stew in the negative memories and the anger. We should let go and let God guide us to forgiveness just as we have been forgiven.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks for the affirmation, SBJ, I appreciate it a lot. I get nervous posting because a lot of the time it feels like I don't know what I'm talking about. You've made me feel like I must be on the right track, for myself - thank you.

I struggle with forgiveness as WH hasn't really manned up and shown (in my opinion) true remorse. I've told him in explicit and clear terms what I need to build trust with him again. (delete cheater apps, go to MC and IC, do some reading to get to the root of his "why") and so far no dice.

This weekend was a rough one for me. WH was working this weekend and I was single parenting. He comes home and studies for his licensing exam (on the 21st) and we sometimes watch a show together before bed time. And the triggers are legion. But I wonder how I am supposed to address it? Alone and muddle my way through? Tell WH and hope he can find some empathy instead of defensiveness? I dunno. I still feel very alone in this aftermath of his affair. When it is brought up he resorts to telling me why he feels I made it possible for him to cheat. I'm sorry but that is BS. I was very unhappy in our marriage as well and didn't step out. I think I am spiraling and I am not sure what to do about it. I really wish I could just cut this anger and resentment out of me.

PsySara, the forgiveness is for you more than it is for them. Yes it is difficult, but it is truly necessary.

Sara I don't see how you could forgive. While forgiveness is for you, it has to begin with someone who wants forgiveness. If he is making no efforts to do the things necessary for you to rebuild trust and to feel safe in the relationship it is understandable that you don't.

I wish you would go back and read your thread when you were ready to walk. You were so confident and sure, and now you are back in the muddle again.

Is this just a cycle you guys go through? You get strong and ready to walk, he comes around, you start hoping and expecting and he starts distancing, you feel alone and unvalued until you are ready to walk . . .

I think forgiveness has two parts - the act of forgiving someone who shows contrition is one. But I think there is an internal one too where we work out the balance between a sort of forgiving acceptance and our justifiable anger. Anger can be a fuel but it also damages us too. The internal forgiving is a bit more about seeing others as human, fallible and flawed. The first is probably necessary to rebuild trust. The second is more about hope and peace.

(((Sara)))

Sigh. I don't even know what to say. I fear saying the wrong thing, because while our sitches are similar, our Hs are quite different. I do know that I personally have very much needed to see remorse, regret, and accountability to begin the forgiveness process. For me it as been a long and complicated process. I have been fortunate that I have had that from him and that H has been consistent over time. In a way it is what keeps me hopeful.

I don't want to suggest that your H should do the same because I am sure there are dynamics in our Ms that are different. I also agree that forgiveness does come from within us. Because even though my H has demonstrated "true remorse," I have still struggled. A lot. There is not a direct proportion between the level of remorse he shows with my ability to forgive. Does that make sense? I think for me to achieve a level of forgiveness that I can live with, I have to make some internal shifts in my perspective and also simply make the choice to do so. I am not sure if that helps at all. I def sympathize with your struggles!

Blu

So a little update. I've been walking around seething inside, mind movies keep tumbling around. Meanwhile WH keeps being attentive and kind. Last night I mentioned I may have to get back on Remeron (AD that stops nightmares) and he stood very still and then asked, "Are you having nightmares about me again?" I confirmed and said obviously I still had a lot to work through. HE looked devastated and said it was obvious to him that I had PTSD secondary to the affair. He looked so sad and gently joked if I needed to wake up and choke him in the middle of the night then please feel free.

Something interesting happened inside me then, something kind of...relaxed. I think I am starting to see WH understand how far reaching his poor choices have rippled. For some odd reason that has helped me heal a teeny tiny bit. I still struggle with irritability and anger towards him but at least I am not as reactive as I used to be. DB has definitely helped me with anger management.

Lovely Sara, I feel like I need to go back and catch up with what has gone on over the last few months.

It's hard not to feel some kind of anger or resentment towards the WH for their actions and how it has affected others. Especially when seemingly they are alright. Like I say, I need to go back and see what has gone on, but I just want to say to you to keep your focus on you. You got yourself so strong and sure of yourself but then he drags you back to the beginning. It looks as though you are still on two different pathways. With regards to the affair, he will pay for it, when it comes to the day of judgement we will all be accountable for our actions. But right now, you focus on you and loving yourself. Let me be the influence to you loving you, get out there and get those highlights done, or those eyebrows threaded- buy those cute panties from Victoria secrets, or the lipstick that makes you feel confident. Whatever it takes to show yourself some true love, DO IT. You deserve it

Sara, would you take a look at WhyWhy's thread and see if you can advise him what to do about his W's tantrums? Thanks

Hey friends, stopping by just for some updates.

Last week I broke down and told WH the struggles I was having with triggers. Initially he shut down and stopped talking to me. I went out for a drive and decided to use my angry time for grocery shopping, getting my car cleaned and then picking up some lunch for WH and the kids. I brought it home and started to feed the kids and then eating my lunch. WH sat next to me and started telling me how he is really struggling with his feelings of guilt. My anger makes him want to run away but he acknowledges I am entitled to my anger and rage.

He said he knows I feel neglected and he realizes I have made huge changes in my self. He knows I am doing all the heavy lifting and have become fatigued. He said he was extremely grateful for all my work running the house and doing the majority of the child care while he is studying for his board certification. He told me he was seriously considering taking us to Colorado after his test (next week) and having the intensive appointment with MWD. At this point I was completely stunned as he has acted allergic to anything connected with reconciliation with someone helping us. Since that talk things have changes immensely between us.

He approaches me and asks repeatedly if I am ok, if we need to talk. He sometimes looks so sad when he sees me laughing and acting like my old self. It seems he is realizing how much the affair affected me and broke me. I have very little memory about my last born during my postpartum period. I struggled to bond with the baby that he had asked for but then cheated while I was pregnant. His treatment towards me postpartum was really atrocious and borderline abusive. It took a very long time and lots of self help books (with the sprinkling of IC) for me to find myself again. WH sees the return of the confident and strong Sara and he has to face how close he came to losing me in more than one manner. And it's overwhelming him. I catch him gazing at me for long periods of times and his eyes are soft. More tellingly he tells me he loves me quite often. This was something he rarely did during our marriage from the beginning. The man I married is finding his way back to me, I think.

The secret to DBing (and it's not really a secret) is learning detachment. I am still working towards this but have come a long way from the reactive, heart broken pathetic person following the first bomb drop. My best times are when I force myself out of the house and hang out with friends. Also calling someone on the phone and just gabbing about day-to-day stuff provides a relief from my inner musings that can devolve into useless naval gazing. I did try going to the gym and other GAL activities that fellow board members tried and it didn't stick with me. My GAL activities tend to be more cerebral like watching a tv series, reading fiction (usually Sci-Fi or fantasy) and surfing the net. I had to find what worked for me and toss the rest. I took a page from Cherry's book and started getting my hair done professionally every 2 weeks, dressing more attractive and occasionally getting botox on my crows-feet. This made a world of difference for my self-esteem.

Whether your SO is a Walk-away, a MLCer or whatever label fits, the devastation of being told you don't really matter can do immense damage. It turns everything you believe on it's head and can cause you to question your own sanity. But there is a end to the pain, and it can result in a deep happiness and peace if you learn detachment. If you've come to this board it's probably because you tried all the other techniques and it wasn't optimal. You may feel desperate and maybe a little hopeless but there CAN be a change, a good change! This is a marathon not a sprint. You MUST self care during this marathon or you will drop from mental fatigue. Hang in their, friends, this too shall pass.

I think we all get a bit of PTSD, don't we? And weird things can trigger us. Finding our own way to manage that - whatever happens with our Ms - is our own marathon, I suppose.

read somewhere about the idea of 'layering'...that you find a way to put new happy stuff on top of a thing or place that triggers you, rather than avoid it? Like inviting good friends to a drinken dinner at what used to be 'your' favourite restaurant.

Me..I'm going to hunt for happy triggers!

Hey Sara,

How are things going? Just thinking about you.

Tresur,
I definitely have the trademark signs of PTSD. I really resent WH for sending me back years in my recovery from childhood PTSD. Up until his affair I was very healthy psychologically speaking. Now I am triggered constantly as I am a mental health provider and see oodles of victims of infidelity. It has been a Herculean effort to compartmentalize my own trauma when I have patients going through their own fresh Ddays. I work daily on mindfulness and trying to be present in the "now." It's an effort but has become easier since practicing it so often.

Leah,
Things are kind of bumbling along. WH makes noises about wanting to help me heal but then does nothing. He asks me what I need and I tell him in clear terms. And he does nothing. I think constantly about filing but then read about households where the kids basically go to hell in a hand basket as they are usually casualties of divorce. I am p*ssed that my options are to disintegrate their security or stay with a man I feel has done nothing to rebuild trust. I wonder what MWD would say about my situation? Technically my WAH returned home, he's moved back and settled into being a dad again. But there is this...empty spot inside me now. It's a spot that used to be filled by my love for him, my unshakable belief that WH would always be my protector and my knight. But he turned out like all the others who hurt me and abandoned me at my weakest time.

I don't post about this usually but I had a crap childhood. My mother is on her 5th marriage. She had a tendency to marry guys who used her kids as punching bags. She's committed credit card fraud in my name, abuses prescription narcotics and is constantly on the verge of being homeless. I can't count how many times we moved while I was growing up, how many schools I attended, how many times the lights were cut or there wasn't enough food in the house. One of my dreams growing up was to give my children stability, a two parent home and to show them how a married couple should be. Now I feel like that dream has been stolen. I read about how people recover from infidelity and their marriages are better and stronger than before. Then I wonder, why not me? Why hasn't this started to happen? Rather I feel like I am just counting the days with a guy who had no problem cheating on me while pregnant with our baby. Even now he says, "You were different then." As if that excuses him cheating, he still doesn't feel like something is wrong with him, that he needs to change from the man who could deceive and betray his trusting wife.

So I spin my wheels when I am alone. I feel my heart beating too quickly and that reminds me that I have permanent heart damage from his betrayal. He literally broke my heart. I've been to 2 different IC and their suggestion is "Leave him, start over." I challenged them about the statistics surrounding children of divorce and they give platitudes. One said how kids "Like having two homes to go to." I rolled my eyes, I've been in split custody and it [censored], carrying your belongings back and forth like a homeless person. I have the permanent results of contracting an STD from my WH because he couldn't be bothered to use condoms even though they had bought some. What do I do with this rage???? Maybe something is wrong with me. Maybe I ended up repeating a shadow of my mother's poor choices. I thought waiting three years to marry a guy would give me a chance to finesse out the "faults" and see if I could live with them. He did have his selfish moments but I NEVER thought he was capable of the cruelty he showed me on dday and afterward. What if I am not strong enough to rebuild this marriage? At what point do I cut bait and pray my children will turn out okay in spite of coming from a broken home?

I'm really struggling right now. It's been almost 2 years since d-day #1 and 14 months since d-day #2 and I see no real growth from WH. He still isn't seeking IC, reading any books, really delving into what made him thinking cheating was an option. Now whenever we get in any disagreement I find myself fantasizing about divorcing. I just don't see how staying with a remorseless person is really helping me. The kids are happy and love their dad and that is the ONLY thing keeping me from pulling the trigger. But it's coming at a huge cost to my health. The nightmares persist and I am still hyper vigilant about his cell phone. I am angry constantly by his inertia. The rare times we do discuss the affair he comes back to "Well you were different then." As if that justifies his atrocious behavior and his reason for not working on himself.

I've read DR, I've read MWD about healing from infidelity and there is no chapter about a returning spouse who has no desire to make up for what he/she did. I had 11 sessions with my coach and mostly we focused on me and how to forward my own growth. But there was nothing about how to deal with a remorseless spouse. Maybe there is no map for this? Maybe it's just doomed to divorce. If WH is a narcissist (which both MC felt WH met criteria) then I am screwed. Narcissists don't get better because they lack the depth to see any problem in their selves, they simply make everything about external locus of control. WH still mostly leaves all the day-to-day child care in my court, all of the household chores and if we go on any trips it falls on me to plan. I don't feel like this a partnership but rather I am the ONLY real person who cares about the upkeep and forward movement in this marriage.

It's true, the WAS who returns home usually can't deal with the pain they've caused and would like the whole thing to just be swept under the rug. It's also true that the anger that the LBS has kept suppressed for so long in the interest of DBing can start to surface once the spouse is back.

My ex and I had a successful DB reconciliation after his affair about 16 years into our marriage. (I do remember, though, during that first year back, occasionally screaming "I want a divorce" when driving alone in my car). We had several very good years and then he spiraled back into MLC (and his narcissism) and left for good. I felt at the time of that first reconciliation that it was really important for my kids (preteens and early teens at the time). But what I didn't find out until after he left was that even when things were good during the reconciliation, the kids were always waiting for the other shoe to drop. In reality, it may not have been the best thing for my kids for me to have reconciled that first time. They lived with daily uncertainty.

If your ex had never left, that would be one thing - kids who were never aware there was any problem might benefit from never knowing. But given that they already know that dad leaving is a possibility - a rocky reconciliation may not be better for them than a stable divorce.

There's no good answer. But you're not wrong to expect more from your H in terms of making things up to you.

Well I'm done, I've called some divorce lawyers and will be scheduling consults. We got in a big fight when I awoke from a nightmare and I woke him up. Previously he told me to wake him and we could talk about whatever. Well this proved wrong. First he went to the bathroom for at least 10 minutes then moped around the kitchen. Then he sat down and I started out by telling him I am so angry, I am angry that he swore he never cheated with his hand on the Qu'ran. He interrupted and said, "I know, I know, I've heard this a dozen times." At that point I exploded, I told him it was amazing that here we are 2 years later and he has not changed one bit from the guy who cheated on me. No empathy or remorse, just irritation and defensiveness. At that point he stonewalled me like usual so I basically went off and poured out my venom.

Since then we haven't talked. Today he came home late with no explanation while I fed the kids dinner and started their baths. I look around and he left again without letting me know. Then he came back 40 mins later and while I was cleaning the toy room. When I came out the baby was missing and I almost crapped myself. He decided to take him out to talk to the neighbors without letting me know.

I.
AM.
DONE.

I am done with this passive aggressive BS, I am done with his stonewalling and then retracting from the family leaving me to do all the adulting. I am done with his criticisms of my clothes, hair, weight (I weigh 115 pounds BTW and 5'1, meanwhile he is at least 20 lbs overweight) my smiles lines aka wrinkles, and my anger. I am done with his immaturity, his sulks, his stone walls, his inability to hold any conversation of any depth for more than 30 seconds. I am done.

I gain nothing from him being here but suffer greatly. My IC told me she couldn't even do EMDR therapy on me because I was basically getting re-traumatized repeatedly by living in the house with a remorseless "offender." So his presence continues to do damage to me and he doesn't give one d@mn. So I failed at DBing my friends, I cannot endure the marathon anymore. I am fatigued and demoralized. I choose divorce. I already called and left VMs with some of the top rated attorneys in the city and will be scheduling consults. I just need him away from me. I need him to go live somewhere else and let me heal, because my healing and ability to detach is almost impossible with a remorseless a-hole living in my home. I'm sorry my friends.

You don't owe anyone an apology, least of all us.

I don't think I could have put up with your H for as long as you have.

Peace.

I echo Rose. You have nothing to be sorry about.

First - you have nothing to apologize about. HE broke the marriage and he isn't doing the work necessary to repair it. You should have eace in your heart that you did everything you could do to save the marriage. This is on him now.

Quote:

I am done with his criticisms of my clothes, hair, weight (I weigh 115 pounds BTW and 5'1, meanwhile he is at least 20 lbs overweight) my smiles lines aka wrinkles,

Read my recent discussion with bttrfly on the Mid Life crisis forum about this very thing.

Peace in your heart

Here's a little different perspective:

Hope it helps

EDIT - sorry external links are not allowed on DB - Cadet

Thank you my friends, I just feel kind of low right now. WH has resumed snap chatting a single, pretty young nurse at his job. He doesn't know I know so for now I am keeping my cards close to my chest. I am back to the LRT but I am doing it for my own sanity versus attempting to get him back. I made an appointment tomorrow with the first of many lawyer consults. A lesser known fact but WH will not able to utilize any lawyer I consult. So I plan on consulting every "big" one in our city, it's known as poisoning the well. Honestly it's just a strategic move on my behalf so I can make sure I am most likely to get what I want from this divorce. My main goals are majority time with the kids but I will "settle" for 50/50. He needs to pay for child care and education costs and I will cover their day-to-day expenses. Previously when I consulted a lawyer I was told there will be no SS as WH and I make equal pay at this point. I am fine with that, I don't desire to fleece him just ensure my children have the financial stability.

I have purchased a book that addresses what to expect when divorcing a narcissist and how to plan your strategy. I chuckle to see it next to my 8 books on how to save marriage and strengthen marriage.

Basically I am going to have the papers written up and present them to WH with a goal to schedule the splitting of assets. As of now he is behaving as if it's business as usual and I suspect he thinks were just repeating the cycle. Previously we'd have a fight, not talk for days to weeks and then I would approach him for reconciliation. Well, not this time. My goal is no longer to save this marriage but to save myself and my children.

This weekend I plan to take the kids to an Eid carnival and invited WH. Initially he hemmed and hawed but I told him matter-of-factly that I needed to know so I could have a friend come with if he wasn't coming to help with the kids, He tried to pick an argument by saying, "So you just need me for childcare." I shut that down and told him it didn't matter if he came but I needed to plan one way or the other. He appeared taken aback and softly said he would like to come. Okay then. Gawd! Why does everything have to be about him?! Just answer a question yes or no! Why did I fight so hard for such an immature @sshole?

I've also started being more proactive with the kids religious education. I've started having them pray salat next to me and have left a VM at the mosque about children's Quranic studies. I've decided I can no longer wait for WH to be the Muslim father he promised to be when we had children. HE is dishonest and wayward so I definitely can't expect him to teach things like morals and integrity.My anger has now been focused to a cold, pinpoint tight beam.

Hey Sara,
I love your focus on a cold, pinpoint tight beam.

My heart is so VERY FULL tonight, and I have so many things I want to share and say, but by mind feels like a tilt-a-whirl at a carnival.

I just wanted you to see a response from me, and know my heart is with you.

You are so much stronger than you ever thought. You deserve better than this. We all do.

Quote:

WH has resumed snap chatting a single, pretty young nurse at his job.

Just out of curiosity, how did you find this out? I thought snap chat deleted texts/images?

(((Sara)))

You're my queen and a shining star! You are fierce and are going to come out on top with or without this fool. I can sense your strength and determination. So keep moving forward and making choices that are best for you and the kids. If you change your mind again, that is okay too. I bet as he sees your strength and detachment, he will back peddle, soften, and start his game of pursuit all over. You know it's coming. So keep your plan close in your vest and don't compromise your worth or the remorse you require. You know what you need now, and you dont have to give that up for him or the M. .... I am so glad you have your religion and that awesome community of people; perhaps that is the intact family that you and the kids need right now..

Keep posting, we are here for you!
Blu

Leahsue,
Thank you for taking the time during your roller coaster to come give support, I really appreciate it.

Stormchasher,
You would think after my PI abilities previously (restored deleted texts, put a key logger on his phone, cracked into his google history, have a tracker on his phone, found the address of AP's parents and sent them a letter exposing the affair) he would learn to avoid electronic communication. But no, he has snapchat on his phone as well as his ipad. So while he was chatting with New Nurse on his phone it was showing live on his ipad. What little bit I witnessed months ago was benign. But I didn't like the joking/heckling I was reading because with WH's boundaries it would quickly develop to something more. Well any time you open and chat with someone it time stamps it, so his Ipad was showing he has recently chatted with her. The other night he actually left it open mid convo so I was able to read what he typed (he never sent it) and the time. So he's crossed a boundary by resuming communication with this young, single (very pretty) nurse on his snapchat.

Blu,
Thank you so much for your vote of confidence, I needed that. It's weird, it's like some sort of switch flipped and I've become...detached is the wrong word, just....very tightly focused in my rage. I've already scheduled three consults out of six. WH will know nothing until I've filed and I will give him the choice of choosing where he is served.

Today I went to my third consult and I really like this lawyer's philosophy. Her retainer fee is a bit pricier as well as her hourly rate but her philosophy closely mirrors mine. Her jaw dropped a few times when I described the timeline (WH proposing and having sex with AP 3 weeks after meeting her) and she was surprised at the counter measures I took to save my marriage. When I told her I was purposely consulting the top rated family lawyers to "poison the well" she burst out laughing. She also became serious and thoughtful when I told her I was not 100% against reconciliation but only if I saw HUGE behavior changes in my husband. She said she is my employee and I call the shots.

She seemed impressed that my goals were clearly defined (The house goes to me, WH can have all his vehicles, 401K, retirement, etc) I told her I was going to do everything in this process as low key as possible. I would not engage in arguments with WH but rather focus on the desired outcome. Mostly I would move heaven and earth to diminish the damage to my children. I would not use my children as a tool to hurt WH, I no longer cared if he suffered or felt "success" by divorcing me, I just wanted my children to come out of this relatively unscathed. I really want to try clean, quick mediation and the lawyer felt that was completely reasonable and said it would save an enormous amount of money. She was frank that she would litigate like a pitbull if I green lighted her but that I was the one to decide the tone. I still have more consults scheduled but I will probably go with her.

Dear Sarah,

My heart goes out to you, you tried everything you could. There so much we can handle, after all those years of trying you need may be some peace... Home should be a place when you can let it go and find peace.

It seems that you H has been taking you for granted and engaging in those conversations with another woman while still married is a huge red flag. Respect is a must. Without respect no relationship can survive.

I have been absent for a while I have been having issues on my own, I have been struggling again with anger and a few events triggered in me if it was worth it to keep going on... I still don't know...

Sara:

Quote:

My IC told me she couldn't even do EMDR therapy on me because I was basically getting re-traumatized repeatedly by living in the house with a remorseless "offender."

EMDR has helped me SO MUCH with helping me deal with my W. Turned me into a less reactive, more calm human, and to take W's mental haywire-ness in stride.

I know that you are being constantly traumatized, but after you get through a couple of the next hurdles in front of you, I hope you'll have the chance to work off the trauma.

I so wish my WAW would consider EMDR, it would help her better manage her anxieties. She has chosen meds, job changes, getting a dog, wanting a D, etc....but unless she does the work, it will be a constant case of "no matter where you go, there you are."

Glad to see that you're smarter than that.

Sky,
It's good to see you around, I was beginning to wonder where you'd gone off to. I sometimes wonder if anyone really "knows" if reconciliation was worth it after being cheated on. I am sure they deal with the niggling thought in the back of their mind for the duration of the relationship. It's like being deliberately shot by a loved one, the scar will always remain and it may hurt when the rain comes. I am sorry you are struggling but truly, I get it.

JDub,
I recommend EMDR to about 80% of my patients, a lot of my patients have been deeply traumatized and thus they land in my backyard (inpatient, acute stabilization.) I hear this voice whisper (not really!) "Physician, heal thyself" whenever I am recommending it.

So Saturday WH accompanied me to the Eid festival with the kids. The kids had a FANTASTIC time, there were rides, face painting, food, prayer and tons of activities. WH asked if we could pick up his motorcycle which he had stored at his job's garage during the hurricane, I acquiesced. By the time we got to his job all the kids were sleeping. He got out of the van and I had a chance to see all three kids in their seats, face paint, the helium balloons floating around the back seats...my face just broke out in a big smile. This is what I wanted but WH never seemed to take the lead. I wanted the kids to have a HUGE blast for our holidays and when I took the reigns I made it happen. My chest felt full to bursting and I am still smiling when I think about it. Meanwhile WH was silent, stone faced and just...detached from us. His loss.

I took the kids to the mosque today and registered the two older ones for Islamic Sunday school. They will be there every Sunday for 14 weeks and learn (and be tested) on the basic Quran verses and the tenets of out religion. They also will get pizza, lol! I came home after dropping them off and finished the laundry and other sundry things. WH came home early from work as I was putting the baby back in the van to go pick them up. He looked surprised and asked where I was going, I told him to pick up the kids from the mosque. I invited him to come pick them up and he accepted. The ride was filled with silence but I was comfortable, meanwhile he kept taking these deep sighs.

I stopped by an ice cream place on the way home and WH sat with us but didn't get ice cream. Instead he laid his head on the table like some pouting child. I wanted to dump my cone on his head. When we came home WH went and took a nap, I took the kids for a swim in our pool. I felt relaxed, happy and really present while they splashed and swam. I showered them afterward and made dinner. WH woke from his nap and went into his office and played video games. I decided to walk our puppies and told WH the kids were in his care. He grunted a response and when I came home 40 minutes later he was still playing video games. Honestly, it's like I'm married to a moody teenager.

OMG Sara, you are caring for F.O.U.R children!!!!!!!

You are not in a partnership, you're parenting (and doing a great job of it, BTW) 3 of your own children, and some grown adopted kid who can't get his $hit together.

God bless you, girlfriend. I have so much respect for you. Your kids are BLESSED to have you as their mother. And you will be rewarded for that.

Hang in there and full speed ahead with what you need to do.

WH continues to phone in parenthood. He'll play with the kids for a bit each day then goes to his man cave and plays video games while I do all the dinner,homework, bath routines. I've seen a few more lawyers and at this point will be going with the second lawyer I saw. I like her philosophy and she is willing to put the brakes on at any time I tell her. But frankly I don't see WH really caring.

Last night one of the pups got ill and I had to be taken to the vet, she's still there and may need surgery tomorrow. I came home after a hectic day and started the evening routine. WH came to me asked if it would be possible for all of us to go to Disney water park, I mulled it over and said sure. Then I realized that we may have a pup recovering from surgery so I am unsure if this will be do-able. I also remembered that I have the kids signed up for Islamic studies every Sunday. Wh just wanted us to stay overnight Friday and come home Saturday night. If pup just needs hydration this will be possible.

I can't help but be weirded out that we're still doing things as a family while I am planning my divorce. WH is barely talking to me and I find I am fine with that. It's a relief honestly, not to worry about what he is thinking or saying. I find myself not giving a crap if I piss him off or bruised his crystalline brittle ego. I am so mentally exhausted from the last two years and WH's complete inertia with regards to reconciliation that I have lost all motivation to work towards our marriage. I still get very angry when I go over the lies, the omissions, the blame shifting. I am angry he chose to throw away diamonds for a piece of petrified sh*t. There is no doubt in my mind he will deeply regret his wayward ways but I think that will be after years of being alone (or shallowly partnered) and the kids eventually seeing him for what he is, dishonest and narcissistic. Sorry guys, not in a very positive mood tonight. This whole thing has made me jaded and realize my idea of soulmates is just a stupid fantasy.

I'm with you, Sara. But we have to realize we are still in a place of enormous hurt and rejection. The Pollyanna in me still has to hang on to the hope that there ARE soulmates out there, who work and struggle to stay in the R, even when the going gets tough.

You are an amazing, strong woman, and you will come out even stronger on the other side of this. Don't lose hope. HUGS.

PsySara, you will always be a warrior queen to me.

You're still fighting, but for something else - for the happiness and stability of you and your children.

I used to think that the battle would be over if only WH would come home, but your journalling has exposed how naive an expectation this is. For that I thank you deeply. We get into all sorts of problems because of unrealistic expectations, and because of your posts, you may have saved a few more hearts from being broken even more badly.

Soulmates, I think, by the way, is a total co-dependency con job. We come to this world alone, and we will leave alone, and though we may lie to ourselves of our time in between, we live alone.

He might not realize what he has until he looses it... meanwhile you need some time off to find peace again inside yourself. Your life has been a constant turmoil since 2 years.

Detach.... for good. Stop pursing him once and for all. Sorry for the 2'X4", but I had to say it. He has to want to stay, it has to come from him not by being persuaded to do it otherwise he will flip his mind again and again. By pursuing him you are giving him more importance than he has really, you are making him worthier than you. You are reducing your own worth. We chase what is worthy... not the opposite. Think about that...

You did everything you could and beyond. I truly admire you, you never gave up but may be it's time for him to feel what's life is going to be without you to make everything so easy. He needs to feel REALITY.

Remember if you accept to be disrespected once and don't sanction it it will happen again and again. Don't be afraid to stand up, it's tough, it's nerve wrecking, you will question yourself a lot but down the line you will feel empowered and relieved. You have more to win than to loose for him that the opposite.

From what you have been writing since a few months he never had to endure any consequences in regard of his behavior, he kept lying, chatting with girls and disrespecting you, crossing boundaries without having to suffer any consequences.
He never lost anything, you kept losing.

Why do you want him to change or question his behavior if he can keep doing whatever he wants. I made clear to my husband when he asks me to give him another chance (I didn't really want it), if he was going to break any boundaries he was out. He needed that to force himself to resist the temptation to do it again and truly change. He knew what he was going to loose and how determined I was. I showed him how strong and determined I was, and made him understand that he had no more control over me and my life, I was not going to bend over and pursue him anymore.

Even if I am struggling with piecing and a bunch of triggers, his behavior changed drastically since last year and he didn't cross any boundaries. I kept reminding him that these boundaries are not here to punish him but to make me feel safe and also to protect him from being tempted again. Also he know that if he wants to leave I won't stop him but I don't want to be cheated again or being disrespected again in my own home, that my red line.

Whatever the decision you will make, there will always have pros and cons. You have a daughter, you are her role model. Never accept something that you don't want her to accept.

Thanks guys, this weekend was enlightening. I found I just don't have it in me anymore. On the way home WH did a really petty thing, he only filled the family van's gas tank half way because he feels our nanny shouldn't be doing "extra trips" ie., her own shopping and stuff while just with the baby. I've never had a problem with this before and I don't think it's worth losing a really good child care provider. We are wealthy people and she is not, if she wants to run a few trips during the day then I have no problem with it. I told him to turn around and I would fill it all the way up and I did. At the last second WH said, "Fine, you're in charge of filling of the van for now on." I just looked at him and shook my head. I then said, "We need to talk tonight." He agreed.

So tonight's the night. I am letting him know I've consulted a lawyer and will be paying my retainer and filing as soon as they paperwork is ready. I've turned every stone and been extremely patient. This gives him a chance to get how own lawyer and we can sit down and start working through the financials and stuff. He is still the wayward, narcissistic guy who cheated on me and I don't see him changing anytime soon. So I need to do this to protect myself and really start healing. Because one thing is clear, one cannot heal when living with a remorseless cheater, it's just rug sweeping at this point.

I plan on keeping this matter-of-fact and business like. I don't care to argue or try to "make him understand" the whys. He knows the whys and if he doesn't then that's my answer. I can't force him to feel empathy or be caring person, I can just make sure I emulate this for my children and hope for the best. A small part of me is nervous but another part of me is completely and utterly exhausted. I'm just done. I'm walking away.

I have no doubt you can handle your children and whatever the process you are going to enter, you are very strong.

I truly believe that you need to extract yourself from that mess for your own sanity. You will never be the same as the one you were before but with time you will notice that you will become stronger and wiser. Surround yourself with a good network of friends and let them help you. The next few months are going to be a roller coaster again, keep your eyes on what are your main goals and if the communication with your H is becoming tense, just let your attorney handling the communication. Be ready for him to become very nasty if you don't bend/agree, he is used to have it his way...

I believe in you.

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