Hello Everyone.
I have been reading the boards for a while, and feel it is time for me to finally tell my story.
Forgive the long post!
I am 35, W is 31. We have one S(adopted) 5. We were married in 2006 after dating 1.5 years. We have struggled with infertility for our entire marriage, but were blessed with the most perfect adopted child 5 years ago.
For the first 5 years of our marriage, I struggled with pornography on and off and repeated lies to my W. We "worked" through these issues and seemed to be building towards a great marriage. I sought accountability and transparency for my issues, all of which are still in place today.
Fast forward to Oct 2016. Halloween, great night with son, everything is good. The next night (11-1-16) wife says "when you get home we need to talk". She tells me, she met with atty and wants divorce, "she has tried and has nothing left". Says she doesn't feel like I have ever loved her, nor could i love her like she needed. As i have not yet found this site, I go into freak out mode (begging , pleading, "I'll do whatever, etc.). Doesn't work. We begin in house separation, taking turns in and out of MBR. The entire time she is pushing full speed ahead with D. I have no idea where this came from. Blindsided. However, feel like something or "someone" has entered the picture and is "pulling" her away. Became secretive w/ phone, changed cell phone plan, etc. I convince myself, that I am crazy bc wife has always been trustworthy.
We agree that we will get through holidays with S, and move forward after first of the year. During this time, I found this forum and read DR (twice). Begin DB'ing (180's, GAL, etc.) Started to notice a shift in late Dec. as she became more friendly to me, etc. However, during this time we also found out (very unexpectedly) that I had heart failure. She was devastated, became the most attentive, loving and supportive wife ever.
She/We decided in Jan 2017, that we would start MC and try to make this marriage work. Everything is good, I feel like we are communicating, intimacy is back (somewhat), and we are a family again.
In February 2017, I started to have a terrible gut feeling, and couldn't explain it. My son was taking private baseball lessons from a guy in town, and I couldn't always go because the lessons were mid-day in the middle of the week. I began to notice that on those days, my wife would get extra made up, but thought I was being paranoid, and paid no mind. One day, i decided to leave work and make a surprise visit during a lesson. I walk in and both of their faces drop (they are not doing anything as my S5 is there.) There was a tension, and I could feel it. Immediately she accused me of not trusting her, etc. bc I showed up unannounced. I confronted her, and she swore up and down that nothing inappropriate had happened bw them and I was being crazy. During this time, all intimate contact had stopped bw W and me. Life goes on, not great, but status quo and then on 3-10-17 BD.
She calls me and says, "I need to tell you something, and it's bad." I say okay, and she says "I feel like you already know because you've been questioning me about it, but me and OM have been having an affair." Proceeds to tell me they began texting in November/Dec. Stopped for January, and he began texting again in February 2017, then became physical 3 times. I told her, we can work through this, and she says "I can't be married after this, because you'll never trust me again." I tell her trust can be rebuilt, but she says she knows it can't because she never trusted me again after all the lies years ago. She agrees that she wants to be with me and work on this marriage, so we begin what I think is piecing around 3-12-17. It has been very up and down, been to MC a couple of times, but no real improvements. We seem to be living in limbo, as she is still unsure of what she "wants". NC with OM was established early on, and I believe this is the case. However, she still seems very disinterested in this marriage, and I don't know where to go from here.
One other side note, she has mentioned on a couple of occasions that she "is 31 and doesn't want the next 10-20 years of her life to be like this." Is MLC possible for 31 yr old W? Also says, "she is worried that everything will be okay until the next crisis, and we will be right back here."
As far as DBing goes, I have done okay but find myself backsliding a lot. When I try to pull back and give her space to breathe, she accuses me of being mad or not caring. But when I am loving and attentive, she feels smothered. I have never been a "needy-pursuer" but after this, I feel like I am searching for constant reassurance that she wants to be with me.
I really don't feel as though she has been truly remorseful, nor has she made any efforts to regain my trust, she is very indifferent. I have admitted to my faults that led us to this point, as I could've been a better husband. However, I refuse to take responsibility for the A.
I have read all of the material on this forum for the last 5 months and still feel lost, as to what to do next or even what I am dealing with. A WAS, WW, or MLC?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I really don't feel as though she has been truly remorseful, nor has she made any efforts to regain my trust, she is very indifferent. I have admitted to my faults that led us to this point, as I could've been a better husband. However, I refuse to take responsibility for the A.
I have read all of the material on this forum for the last 5 months and still feel lost, as to what to do next or even what I am dealing with. A WAS, WW, or MLC?
LW - Sorry you're here, but glad you are reaching out. No way no how take responsibility for the A. You addressed your issues and that is on your W for crossing that line.
As for WAS, WW or MLC, it can be any of them, but stay strong and focused on yourself and your son. Best of luck and keep posting.
I have read all of the material on this forum for the last 5 months and still feel lost, as to what to do next or even what I am dealing with. A WAS, WW, or MLC?
So since you have been reading here for that time you know that you do the same thing no matter what you are dealing with.
Re-read my first post, everything you need to do is in it.
Keep posting
Tryin-
Thanks, that's my main goal now is to make sure my S had Dad he deserves.
I feel like I need to update my current sich. We are both in MBR, no separation currently. There is no sex, as neither of us are back at that point yet. She seems like she is simply depressed most of the time. We don't speak hardly at all during the day, we still kiss hello and goodbye and say ILY. She just constantly reiterates she doesn't know what she wants (to be married, or start over), and tells me "I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to be." However, I see no effort nor action on her part to show remorse for the A, and if it is brought up, I am told "you're going to hold this over my head forever." I know this is where detaching comes in, but I also want her to know that I am committed to her, our family, and this marriage. Thoughts?
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
"I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to be."
LW2381,
I heard those exact words a number of times. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like there's much commitment in that statement.
Just keep working on yourself and hang in there.
Doodler,
Thx-
Zero commitment, sometimes to the point that I almost feel like we are just biding our time until the inevitable.
We are 6 months in since BD#1(W wants out) and almost a month since BD#2 (EA/PA confirmed). She knows what is right, but seems to think there is better out there.
We are 6 months in since BD#1(W wants out) and almost a month since BD#2 (EA/PA confirmed). She knows what is right, but seems to think there is better out there.
LW2381,
Yeah, I don't know the psychology behind the strategy, but they seem to like to drag things out for a long time. I don't know that it's an overt process, but part of the process involves trying to find reasons to leave (rather than reasons to stay). You know, you're not able to do anything right and anything you say can and will be used against you. They're working on breaking their own emotional bonds and all the while keeping you on the hook as their safety net. In many other contexts it would be great sport, but it stinks when it's a marriage.
They're working on breaking their own emotional bonds and all the while keeping you on the hook as their safety net. In many other contexts it would be great sport, but it stinks when it's a marriage.
Doodler - The comment on being a great sport is spot on as it is about stamina in keeping up the progress, setting the boundaries, feeling the burn!!!
LW - Grass is greener thought is something you can fight if you work on yourself, but don't do it for her do it for you.
Doodler- I have already seen I can do no right, and everything is used against me.
Tryin-I am working on fighting that now. Originally, it was for her to stay, but now I realize that working on myself will be better for myself and also my son. Deep inside her heart I know she knows we just need to water our own grass, but it may be too late for her to realize it. She's pretty far gone.
When I stopped contacting the OM, I went through months of withdrawals. The hardest part of getting through that period was just getting him out of my head. I was also depressed and it was very difficult to generate enough energy to put effort into a M I basically saw as dead.
Like your W, I did not feel remorse. I made my decision to stay in my M based on doing the right thing. However, doing the right thing did not automatically restore the right feelings. It took a long time, and even praying that I would experience remorse, b/c I did not believe I would ever feel in love with my H without it. It eventually came when I finally stopped allowing myself to dwell on the OM. Of course, I had a lot of other work to do, like forgiving my H for his part of the breakdown and releasing years of resentment that had grown in my heart.
Your W is a lot younger than I was, so hopefully, she will find her way back faster. I suspect she made a decision to do the right thing when she learned of your heart condition. And I don't know, but some of that loving attentiveness could have been, in part, due to remorse. You hope that she would ask for your forgiveness, but if she has as much false pride as I held.........it may be a while yet. Her attitude will reflect her feelings. When her words, actions, and attitude line up........then you'll know things are getting better. Until then, be smart. I think it's Cadet's tag line that reads "Knowlege is power", and you have a lot to receive if you open yourself to it. On the other hand, fear will shut it down. It sounds as if your gut feelings are pretty keen, so continue to listen to them, and don't listen to fear.
I believe it is extremely important for the couple to attend therapy that specializes in restoring marriages after an affair. You each will deal with separate emotional issues that come from that situation........plus, it probably would include your porn addiction and how it affected her. So, you are facing at least two large issues that are fairly known to break up marriages. Don't think you can do this without help, and don't go to some hole in the wall MC that doesn't specialize in healing from affairs and porn addiction.
My H would not agree to go with me to couples therapy. My saving grace was God and this DB Board! I would stay on this board every night until I could no longer hold my eyes open. That was ten years ago, and I am still with my H, which I will always give much credit to those who mentored me. There has been no other inappropriate behavior or betrayal from this former wayward wife.
You have to continue to work at having a healthy MR. They don't just happen. There will always be new challenges along the way, but there is usually a way to work through it. You have to be smart. You cannot be lazy or take anything for granted! You probably realized this when you discovered you had a heart problem so early in life. Marriage is a living thing that requires adequate nourishment. At times, she'll need more than you, and vise versa.
Although you are trying to convince yourself that she has always been trustworthy, the truth is that she broke that trust. However, she can earn it back again by being accountable and transparent, just like you did. Currently, she is high risk b/c of her emotions feeling lost and unsure........ and not having the passionate in-love feelings she wants to have for you. It is scary as heck for a woman to think she is trapped in a loveless M, after she gives up her OM. ( May not be a nice way to say it, but I'm just telling you like it is). The good news is that once she really gets the OM and all the "what ifs" and "may have been" out of head, her feelings of being in love with her H can return. Women are not wired to be in love with two men at the same time. She may sleep with two, or sleep with one and crave the other.........but she will desire only one. Sometimes, LBH'S seem not to consider the emotional dives her mind has experienced. It takes time for her to fall out of love with her H......and into love with OM.....then out of love with OM.....and back into love with her H. No wonder she feels confused!
Both of you have a lot of work ahead, and doing what works will give your M the best advantage. You have already spent five months reading? Okay, well don't stop......and post often. Telling us more about her history and the dynamics of your MR will help us have a overhead view.
Last night we got into a R talk, her choice. I told her that I was tired of limbo and that we were either all in or all out for this marriage. The conversation ended with us going to bed together amicably but with no commitment from her as to knowing what she wants. This morning we woke up and she was friendly, I got our son up and got him ready, as I was leaving I kissed her goodbye and said ILY (this routine has not changed). I guess she felt like something was wrong, and asked me "are you okay?" I calmly replied as I walked out "I'm fine." A while later she called me and told me that no matter how hard she tries nothing she does is good enough for me. She said she woke up feeling like it was a new day and felt like it was going to be good. However, she felt like I shot that down and made her feel like no matter how hard she tries I can't just move on or move forward. Any thoughts on how I could've handled that differently? It seems like we can't get along about anything. If one of us is good the other is not. Makes no sense.
Sandi,
Wow, I have read so much of your advice and can truly say I feel blessed you have given me advice on my sitch.
In November, when she went from okay to gone (there were warning signs, I know it didn't happen overnight), she said she felt like i had never loved her like she loved me. It came out in MC that she had put me on a pedestal early on, and obviously i plummeted quickly from that pedestal as we are all broken people. The porn aggravated that, and we never dealt with that.
I saw how much love she still had for me we didn't know how serious my heart condition was, but at that time I had now idea about the EA. So it may have been remorse, but I didn't recognize it as such.
We have a good christian counselor who does specialize in affair recovery, and we have established that we never accurately dealt with the porn issues, and a lot of that resentment was still in her heart. So now we are working through the A and my past troubles, but I still am not sure she is fully on-board with it.
She has always had self-esteem issues, and I know the porn just made that worse for her. On top of that we were going through infertility during this time. She told me after the admission of the EA/PA that she thought "he would love her". Everything he told her were the same things that I told her everyday but meant more coming from him. I am fully aware of the problems I created that pushed her away from me. I don't own the A, but I do own my part of the marital breakdown.
She says now, she worries that everything will be okay for a few months and then we will end up right back here. I genuinely feel terrible for the emotions my W is wrestling with. I see her pain.
I just have no idea where to go next. Do I detach, do I work on piecing, MC says love her through this, which really makes detaching and acting like I moving on w or w/out her really hard!
Venting:
I hate this. I am struggling with the idea that she had the A, and I am the one fighting to keep the M together. How is that okay???? W also believes that this is not affecting our son, it's obvious that it is.
She says now, she worries that everything will be okay for a few months and then we will end up right back here. I genuinely feel terrible for the emotions my W is wrestling with. I see her pain.
I just have no idea where to go next. Do I detach, do I work on piecing, MC says love her through this, which really makes detaching and acting like I moving on w or w/out her really hard!
Falling back into it again can happen as it did for me and the W and that's why I'm back on this board. I too see my W's pain and I hate it but she's going through it her way and I through mine. We both contributed and we're both dealing in our own ways.
The best way forward is to detach and improve yourself. Your MC says love her through this well one way of doing that is letting her be, letting her hurt, letting her heal. Sandi's given you some incredible insight into the road she went through and your W has to do the same.
This is a marathon and not a sprint and like a marathon you're gonna feel it (not that I've ever come close to running one).
If she sees you at your best (and you can really only be at your best if you've detached, GAL, focus on improving you), you have the best chance to make her rethink everything without asking her to do so.
Does that make sense?
Tryin-
It makes perfect sense. I have to be honest I never considered that "loving her through this" could mean letting her be. Thank you so much for pointing that out. I guess I always felt like that meant pursuing and "pushing" to love her.
I guess I will work on detaching and GAL, although I struggle with the GAL because that means time away from my son, which I don't know that I am willing to give up. He needs me, especially now.
Yes the advice Sandi gave is invaluable, because she has been there.
So off we go, I am just going to let her be, and work on me and see what happens.
Here's the problem you face today. The LBH is usually so focused on getting his W back from the clutches of the OM, that he has not had sufficient time to process all his inner feelings. He wants his WW to instantly be on the same commitment level and emotional level as he is. That will not happen, b/c you both have separate hurts & resentments you have to process.
She's not even sure if she is making the right decision. Since she is not feeling the way she use to feel about you, it scares her into doubting those feelings will ever return. It just takes time to heal. If we could see the emotional damage the way we can see a physical part of our body destroyed..........maybe we could see how the healing was progressing. Even if she is being honest with you, her feelings cannot "snap" back.
My advice for you at this point, is not the same that I would tell a H who had a W that refused to work on the M. Just want to clarify this for anyone reading this thread. Until you know that she is making contact with OM, you proceed with healing the MR. If she is being honest and not contacting OM, or asking friends about him, etc.............then she is going to need a lot of support from you. This is not the time to act cold, distant, & sulked. This is the time to start repairing the "friendship" part of the MR. (I don't like to call it that, but it helps people relate to what I mean). Don't smother her with your presence, and don't push for sexual intimacy, b/c it could cause her to feel pressure. Affection, snuggling, hugs, and other non-sexual touches is okay.......as long as she is receptive. Don't ask, just experiment and If you feel a cold response, then stop touching her at all, for now. Remain in the same bed, and don't start switching out bedrooms. If she initiates sex, then follow her lead.
My advice is to incorporate as much fun things as possible. Keep the atmosphere as light as possible. If it starts getting too heavy, pull back a little and give space. Focus on uplifting music, comedy shows, and playing with your son. Doing things as a family. She needs to see life and joy in her home atmosphere. Yes, it is a big challenge when you are dealing with so much emotional pain, but this is part of the "work" to get through this door and go to the next one.
This is not fun for her, either. You each have your own demons to fight. You will feel as if you are living in different time zones (or planets) for a while. It takes time to get on the same page again. I suggest you meet with the counselor once a week, at the very least. Then you can taper down as you get through the initial hot spots. I also advise you not to have R talks at home, and save it for the session with the counselor. Right now, things are very fragile, so try to avoid talking about the affair. If she wants to talk, then your part of that conversation is to listen. No talk.......just listen, and validate her feelings.
When a H uses porn, the W feels degraded. She feels like you felt when you discovered her affair. To her, your porn activity equals cheating. Women take it very personal when their H turns to porn. You are doing what you need to do there, but she has deep resentment. I pray that she will be able to let it go and heal her heart and self esteem.
Has the counselor discussed the importance of transparency from her?
Sandi-
This is amazing, thank you so much. This describes my situation perfectly, and is exactly the advice I needed.
I believe she has quit all contact with OM, and if she is telling the truth, it hit her pretty hard that he was so quick to let her go. She constantly said "I thought he would love me."
I have recognized that we are both fighting our own demons, and I have been struggling with the balancing act of letting her know I am here for her, but also, trying to stave off the devastation and anger that I am feeling as well.
I will be the first to admit I have not been as patient as I know I am supposed to be when it comes to her love and commitment to me. I often forget the unbearable pain and hurt she is feeling on so many levels. However, I made the commitment to be more patient with her last night and to let her work through this at her own pace and how she sees fit. It was well received (I'm not sure she believes it, but I will have to walk it to prove it), and we went to bed (together) peacefully.
Had MC this morning (we are meeting weekly), and we have not gotten to the necessary transparency part of it yet. I asked the counselor while W was not in the room about that, and he thinks W is way too fragile emotionally to hit her with that right this moment. We are currently working through removing some of the toxicity that has built up over the years, and had a positive session. We smiled together and looked back on some good times, which helped us both.
I really appreciate the prayers, and know ultimately God is in control and is walking us through this. She has drifted tremendously so I am praying not only for our marriage but also that she will find her love for God again.
For now, I will focus on what you said, about keeping it light and fun, and trying to become friends again.
Thanks again.
I guess I will work on detaching and GAL, although I struggle with the GAL because that means time away from my son, which I don't know that I am willing to give up. He needs me, especially now.
You know what they say on an airplane....secure your oxygen mask before assisting others.
I get that he needs you, and Im not suggesting that you ignore your son. Now is the time to be the best dad ever.
However, you arent of any use to him long term if you dont get yourself healthy too. A night out a week, for example, to start a new hobby isnt "giving up" time with your son and wont hurt him.
Kaizen-
Thanks, you are exactly right. That's something I am starting to see as necessary, and will work towards that. Thanks again-
Journaling:
Last night was good...hung out with S while W worked. When she got home, we were pleasant with each other. It is all still so awkward, I'm just trying to give her space to work through her emotions. Now I'm struggling with the idea that I am so willing to fight for someone who I am not even sure wants to fight for me...
Now I'm struggling with the idea that I am so willing to fight for someone who I am not even sure wants to fight for me...
LW2381,
I think that happens to most of us. Once our own fog begins to clear, we begin to use our brains again and start to question if the spouse is worth the fight. I think it's a good thing.
Now I'm struggling with the idea that I am so willing to fight for someone who I am not even sure wants to fight for me...
Hmmm. A corner is being turned.
LW2381,
I just read through your thread and have a few thoughts for you:
1. Looking back on the first months of my situation, I can see now that I was a complete and utter emotional mess. This is not attractive at all. You still sound pretty emotional, which is normal. Do what you have to do for yourself to get to a better place. Get the support you need. Vent your feelings to a confidante who is not your W, don't stuff them.
2. You need to avoid the R talks and like Sandi says, when your W initiates them, your job is to just LISTEN. Make eye contact, make your W know that you are listening, but don't feel like you need to defend yourself, make counterpoints, or express your feelings "I can't live like this much longer"... There may be a time for that in the future, but it is not now. You're too emotional and the situation is too fragile, so the most important thing is that your W feels like you are listening.
3. Your W is an emotional roller coaster right now. Everyone here says detach, detach, detach. This is very hard to do and as someone who struggled with it...here's what I learned. My W's crazy ups and downs were controlling MY feelings. W was happy, then I was happy. W was angry, then I was sad. Work on stopping this dynamic. Your W is going to treat you like doggy doo some days...don't get down...be steady. Other days, W will want to be close to you...don't get too excited...be steady.
Gordie,
Thanks for all of your insights.
1. You are exactly right, I have been an emotional mess, and still find myself there some days. Not as many, but some. I have been venting to a good friend, and IC, bc stuffing my emotions may have helped lead up to this problem.
2. I tried the "I can't live like this much longer" talk several times, and was not even really sure if I meant it, but was really hoping just for some emotion from her. Instead, I saw a cold, dark, emptiness in her eyes I haven't seen before. I really made me sad for her. Per Sandi's instruction I have stopped all R talks and will wait for her to initiate (if that even happens). At this point, she may just be biding her time until she can walk. If so, so be it. I will be fine.
3. I have absolutely ridden that roller coaster with her, just like you said. Even now, I still find myself sometimes feeding on her emotion. "Be steady" is the best use of words I have heard, and can feel myself starting to level out a little every day. Still a lot of triggers though.
I keep telling myself this is a marathon that has just begun, biggest problem is I have always been a fixer that needs to fix things NOW (another possible reason I am here.).
Thanks again for reading and for your input into my sitch.
Jeep-
Currently golf and running, but fixing to ramp up with Crossfit again also. I have also always been passionate about cooking, so I may look into classes for that as well.
Hobbies have always been tough for me because I run a large company (I have never neglected my family for this) and so when I am home, I have always tried to devote all of my time to my W and S. That has never really left a lot of time for me. I am absolutely not complaining bc I find more joy in being with them than any hobby I could ever have.
However, now that the situation has changed, I am going to make some time for ME. I can only work on me, and I see this is a big part of it.
Thx-
I am posting a copy from a former board member. The first time I saw it was when 25mlc passed it forward. I really like this explanation of BD detaching.....it is a shorter version. I hope it will help.
Detaching is not you punishing her.
Here is a shorter version of what DB detaching is and is not.
*****************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Sandi-
You never cease to amaze. I am printing this now, because all of this makes so much sense to my sitch.
I guess the hardest one for me is trying not to rescue, save, and fix my sick W.
I see her pain, and want so badly to take it from her, even though she is responsible for her actions. Per your previous comments, I am careful to let her know that she is not walking alone in this, but also that all pressure is off, and she is free to be her, and to heal in her way.
Thank you.
However, now that the situation has changed, I am going to make some time for ME. I can only work on me, and I see this is a big part of it.
I mention hobbies because they can be a life saver, in a sense. Something to totally focus one's mind on - even if its just a little. A bunch of littles turn in a big...
I agree with you concerning the children. Mine absolutely come first - nothing even takes their time. My hobbies come when they are asleep or at their mom's.
Good on ya, you seem to be doing well!
Jeep-
Thanks, I will watch for the littles, and pray for the BIG.
Update/Journaling:
Last night we hung out as family, and everything was light. No R talk, although a couple of times she asked "What's on your mind?", and I am not sure if this was temp checking to see if I was willing to break down, or if she was generally concerned. I wanted to explode with "What's on my mind? What do you think? I am sitting here trying to figure out my life and future with or without you!!!!" However, rather than do that, I simply replied "I'm great". Seemed to be met with a suspicious indifference on her part. I have been happy and upbeat with W and S at all times, and more than anything, this truly helps me feel better. At times it is forced, but getting in the habit of appreciating my life, regardless of what it looks like at the moment, really helps.
I love roller coasters, but per the Vets amazing advice, I am getting off her emotional one. I love her, and tell her that, and let her know I'm here when/if she is ready, but I'm not going to let her emotions dictate mine anymore. I've had enough of that.
Keep up the fight everyone. That is one thing everyone on this board has in common, we are all fighters.
I love roller coasters, but per the Vets amazing advice, I am getting off her emotional one. I love her, and tell her that, and let her know I'm here when/if she is ready, but I'm not going to let her emotions dictate mine anymore. I've had enough of that.
Keep up the fight everyone. That is one thing everyone on this board has in common, we are all fighters.
Love all this. This is great stuff brother. Keep on fighting.
You may enjoy the TED talk by Amy Cuddy on body language and faking it until you make it.
Kaizen-
I'll check it out.
Thx
Ok, Update time. Need advice, badly.
Just to catch up....I have been posting more pictures of myself w/ S lately on social media (I'm not normally a big poster.). I have been extremely happy and seemed very "as if" lately with her. I let her know I was here for her, but I (like I said in earlier posts) I am not riding her emotional roller coaster. She called today, to let me know that all of the posts and the way I was acting seemed like I was trying to hurt her. She said "something's different", so she noticed my 180's. However, she replied "it's like I have tried really hard and you just don't care if I walk away." I validated again, and explained that "I had some realizations and that I had come to grips with some things. She asked "like what". I replied that I am here and love her, but that nothing I say or do will change her mind about staying or going, that's on her. That I wasn't going to force it any more, and that she knows what I want, but I can only control me." She says that "I shut her out" and she feels like "you don't want me." I validated, yet again, and told her that "i want you, but I don't NEED you. I will be fine whether you stay or go."
This whole time, she will never say whether she wants me or not. She also always replies "that is always the focus with you, why can't I just work through this?" Which I don't get because when I tried R talks, she felt "pressured." When I backed off, she felt like I didn't want her.
Regardless, she invited me to a family dinner (with a begrudging tone), and I politely declined and said I was going to have dinner by myself. She said okay, "I'm going out after family dinner." I said okay, have fun.
Needless to say this goes on from here, she says "I am going to get some stuff and leave, and you can pick up S tomorrow, to spend time with him." I said okay, no problem, "at least I know how you feel." She says, "I'm done. I'm leaving." I said okay, let's meet to discuss logistics of this.
She's says, "I'll come home tonight, and we can discuss." I said "okay" and that is where we left it.
I just feel like things spiraled out of control, and she claims i wouldn't let her discuss her feelings.
What do I do, how do I handle, I was feeling really good about where I stood. I was confident and now I feel crushed. Was she temp checking, did she really hope to have a R talk?
Advice, Feedback please!
Tonight has been awkward. Went our separate ways and did our own thing. Felt weird being out by myself, but I know this is something I have to do. Still don't know if she'll come home or stay at her mom's. Almost feel like backing off and letting her have space, may have made her feel like I really don't want her. Still not going to beg and plead with her to stay. Guess, I'll keep on keepin on....
I validated again, and explained that "I had some realizations and that I had come to grips with some things. She asked "like what". I replied that I am here and love her, but that nothing I say or do will change her mind about staying or going, that's on her. That I wasn't going to force it any more, and that she knows what I want, but I can only control me." She says that "I shut her out" and she feels like "you don't want me." I validated, yet again, and told her that "i want you, but I don't NEED you. I will be fine whether you stay or go."
Sandi posted something the other day about making sure that we don't sound too "robotic" or like we are reading from a book. The above quote sounds a little "robotic" or "booky". Have you talked like this to her in the past? Is this your normal way of putting things bluntly to her?
I certainly think what you said was in perfect DB form. I just want to make sure that when you respond or speak to your wife, that you don't come off rehearsed. I think you are handling yourself well, but something spooked her off. It seems like she was poking her head out of her mouse hole and for whatever reason, she withdrew.
Go back and dissect your interaction with her. Try and figure out at what point she pulled back and why. Was it your body language? Was it your tone? Figure it out and maybe alter that the next time. It seems as though she is trying to peek out of her castle and for some reason ,she is getting spooked.
Matrix-
I can totally see where I sounded somewhat "scripted". She even commented is that something the IC said....I probably have not spoken in such terms in the past. She was definitely poking her head out, but the problem with my W is that when she "pokes her head out" it is in the form of accusation, i.e. "you want me to leave, you don't want me, you don't care."
The problem is, this was in text. So no body language was involved. However, she normally does it that way. She does better communicating in text form, she can't emotionally handle the face to face very well. I really appreciate the input here, because I see where this went wrong. She has been trying so desperately to lure me into R talks lately, but something always goes wrong.
"you want me to leave, you don't want me, you don't care."
She is trying to tell you something here. You certainly don't want to go over the top and say "YES, YES, YES...I want you to stay, I want you, please don't leave".
She is certainly doing some temp checking. You just need to find a middle ground here. You don't want to lunge at her and scare her off, but you don't want to come off as cold or "meh" either.
I think you are in a better position than you think you are. She is testing you. Try and find that middle, loving, confidant and strong ground to respond to her.
Agree with Matrix here. Sounds like you're in a good spot. Doesn't make the next steps any easier, but it is some firm footing.
Keep it up LW.
Matrix/Tryin,
I appreciate the input, I have definitely noticed she is "poking her head out" and I will absolutely try to not spook her while also maintaining my confidence. That is what got her to notice in the first place, but then I feel like I went into "script mode".
Thanks-
Update/Journaling:
Had an up and down day yesterday. She came home Sat. night, and came on the front porch to have a R talk. What sticks out most in that conversation is that somehow she brought up the A, and said "at least I told you. When you were looking at porn, I had to find it, so you our situations are way different." It took everything in me not to explode and say, "yeah, but I've never touched another woman....". I didn't, later in the conversation I mentioned, "If you don't want to be with me, that is your choice, and I will respect that." She lost it, and said "that is all that anything with you comes down to, is that..." She stormed off and I let her walk.
Yesterday morning, woke up, and she wants to get right back into the R talk...she makes the comment "you think you are hurting, I tried for 10 years to make this relationship work, and I got nothing from you. You have only been trying for 6 months." She has re-written our history (I know this is a symptom of WW), and made it seem like I was the worst guy in history for the rest of our marriage. She said "maybe it's best if I go away until we think we can get along". I told her, "if that is what you choose, I will support it, but that is not what I want."
5 minutes later she says we should take our S for a picnic with her family today. Per vets' advice, I agree, trying to keep it light and rebuild a friendship first. We go, have a great time, and then we go to a farm to pick strawberries, just me, W, and S. Have a great time together, get home, and she is laying on the bed resting, so I go outside w/ S to play basketball. I come back in and she is acting cold, so I say "if you would like to talk about something we can." She says she is mad bc she was trying to spend time with me and I went outside and left her there. Keep in mind, she never alluded to spending time at that moment with me, and was on her phone (FB, Insta, Pinterest), so I assumed she was not really into "spending time." I apologize and validated (more), and we layed there together quietly, awkward but no talks/fighting.
Last night she says she is going shopping with her sister. I totally support her and tell her to have fun. She comes home and is super friendly and has bought me all kinds of stuff????
We went to bed together in peace, so it was a long day, but it ended well.
Guess I'll keep taking it one day at a time.
Up and down the roller coaster goes.
Script mode is hard. I had to level off as it was confusing the W at first. I think I went panic into action mode that it was too much too soon.
We're all afraid of pushing the wrong buttons while things are fragile. I know I've been positive, been restrained (scripting), but still struggling in my way to balance detachment/GAL and being there for her, but not you know???
It's such a delicate balance and painful. In my sitch, I really only think we've got to get further apart before any mending can happen. The W has apparently been really good at collecting water under the bridge.
Keep up the confidence because it sounds like you've got her attention. Baby steps.
Trying
Update/Journaling:
Staying off her emotional roller coaster is the hardest thing I have faced so far.
She has been really bad about blaming me for every fight lately, and there are a lot. Last night for example...We went with her family out for BIL birthday dinner. We were getting along great, talkative, happy, etc. About every 5 minutes she would scroll through facebook, put her phone down for 5, scroll through again. I am not suspicious of anything she is doing, but it started to bother me that she was on her phone non-stop (it is this way ALL THE TIME.). Rather than ask her to stop while we are at dinner (this is a 180 for me), I casually tried to discuss FB with her. I asked "I have tried to get into the FB thing, just to see what it's all about, and I simply don't enjoy it like I thought I would." I then ask her, "what do you like the most about it? What is your favorite part, what attracts you to it?"
At this point, I was genuinely trying to understand what drew her to it, I said it sincerely with no condescension or anything. She answered, "you can post all the happy times, and escape the negative stuff. Everyone thinks you are great." Okay, I think this is dumb, but I validated. She then says, "that was rude to ask, but I'm not mad." I simply look at her with this shocked look, and turn my head away. She then proceeds to tell me, "stop you're making a scene, everyone can tell something is wrong with us." I asked her, "what's wrong? Are you okay?" She says, "stop it."
So when we finally get out of the hell on earth that was dinner and get home, she is angry and starts to blame me saying that I acted "really rude, and mad" at dinner. At no point, was I mad, and I don't think my body language indicated that either (I am very cautious of BL after reading this site and watching TED talks.) Yet again, I validated.
I feel like lately she is looking for any excuse to make be out to be a bad guy. Every fight is the end of the world to her. I try to explain that we are in a very "touchy" place in our R and that a lot of the time we are in emotional states and things are blown up for no reason.
I am fighting really hard to not react based on her emotions (because I know she is fragile), but I'm tired of taking the blame for everything. During these times, I struggle to not defend myself at all, and just take it on the chin. I know she is not in her right mind (I can see the depression, mania at times (crazy spending), delusion (FB life), and exhaustion.
Any advice on how to handle these outbursts? I am almost to the point where I am starting to believe that she is in another world and I am the villain, yet I'm the one fighting to keep this M together?!?! Do I continue to take it and validate, or do I defend myself (I am not completely innocent in this, I know I can handle my reactions better) but, when is enough enough?
We are a month past confession of the A, and she still has yet to realize that a big part of all the tension in the M is due in part to that elephant in the room....
Some days are good, and moments (like last night) it feels like it may never work.
Just exhausted....
-LW
Any advice on how to handle these outbursts? I am almost to the point where I am starting to believe that she is in another world and I am the villain, yet I'm the one fighting to keep this M together?!?! Do I continue to take it and validate, or do I defend myself (I am not completely innocent in this, I know I can handle my reactions better) but, when is enough enough?
LW,
I feel for you brother. Had similar roller coaster Sunday night after dinner with her family when talking about everything not being normal, happy and I validated and agree with all this.
I'm not sure I have much great advice because it is all painful and you don't want doormat status. What keeps me going forward are these things:
a) Regrets - No matter how hard it gets I must consider leaving it all on the table and having no regrets. By leaving it all, I don't mean begging, pleading, trying to negotiate with a WAW, but knowing I've made the best Trying in the middle of all this horse manure (beat you censor!!!). If you stopped now and gave up, will you regret this in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, etc.
b) Family - Our family unit is spectacular and it's simply my R with my W that suffers greatly. Understanding my depression, it's impact to my self-esteem at home and how that has crippled our M has never been clearer. When I look at the big picture of life, I don't see how one would change this family dynamic so drastically through D, but I am coming to grips with me not having all the chips in that decision.
For the chance that this might all work out (thinking of Jim Carey in Dumb & Dumber), it's all worth it and the path is the same either way. The only thing that will attract my W to me is a better Trying because the old Trying really wasn't trying.
I'm not going to improve myself for the W because all bets are off, so this is all for me and my kids. So I do it for Family whether that is the 4 of us or the 3 of us.
Now that I've made all those statements of strength, I'm going to crawl under my desk and try not to think about who's getting the dog in this. ;-) If I'm not laughing, I'm crying and I'd rather laugh.
Best,
Trying
Tryin-
LOL! Mine can have the dog. I'd rather laugh too, and that is definitely something I'm trying to do more of!
I'm starting to feel like I'm approaching doormat status, but I keep looking back to the wise Sandi's earlier comment, and I try to understand where my wife is. I know this is not the time for me to "air" my grievances. She is extremely fragile, and I can see that, so I know it's not a game.
I will have no REGRETS. I have laid it all on the table, and she knows what I want. I want my wife and I want my family. However, that being said, she also knows at this point that I have not forgotten how to stand up for myself (she is the only one who has ever had any power over me). She knows I will fight for US, but I won't be walked on. Period.
FAMILY---I'm with you tryin. Our R suffers, but our F dynamic is amazing. We co-parent amazingly together, no matter how far gone we are. I firmly believe that God doesn't make mistakes and knew what he was doing with the infertility/adoption and creation of our family.
"So you're saying there's a chance (one of my fave movies)." Yes, I just have to keep working on me, and my path. However (and maybe I'm terribly arrogant in this) she knows, deep down, that I have not been a terrible husband to her. I think she is justifying what she has done (the A). She seems to try to find anything she can that I do wrong, and I know I can do things better, but I am at the point now, this is about ME and MY S, and all bets are off.
Keep laughing, you have a lot to be happy about. Tough for me to say, but I truly believe that there are big things in store for you and me.
LW
It almost sounds like entrapment. Whenever I see a WW creating a case against her H...I suspect she is either in some type of contact with the OM, or else she has no intentions of staying in the MR and is magnifying everything that comes to mind.
Public opinion seems important to her, and that could be the base of her building a stronger case against you. Mainly, I think she is doing what most WW's do..........which is twist things to make the H responsible for being a bigger cad than her.
Has she always been this hypersensitive?
I think you are doing well, but I want to add a few words about the scripted mode. Unless a poster says you need to repeat certain words to your W, then stay away from quoting statements you've read on the board. First of all, the information you are reading here is for
you.......and not her. The board gives
you the tools for DBing.
Most of what you repeated to her, were things said here to help get you to a better mental/emotional place.......and to think more clearly.
Secondly, she knows you so well that when you start using new terms or phrases with her.........she knows this is not coming from you, but rather someone else. I have talked to enough couples to know it is not as effective when the other spouse suspects you've picked it up in a book, a class, or whatever. They tend to take an attitude of "rolled eyes".
You posted how you would validate your W when she complained about you. I'm curious as to how you validated. What did you say?
Any advice on how to handle these outbursts? I am almost to the point where I am starting to believe that she is in another world and I am the villain, yet I'm the one fighting to keep this M together?!?! Do I continue to take it and validate, or do I defend myself (I am not completely innocent in this, I know I can handle my reactions better) but, when is enough enough?
This is an example of the need to get both of you into therapy. What's the holdup?
I think she is feeling tons of resentment, and like most WW's.........she will twist things and try to place full responsibility on her H. Currently, you are caught in a "damn if you do and damn if you do not" spot. If you are guilty of what she says, then own it, apologize, and make an effort to not repeat that action in the future. If she is knit picking, then you can either tell her you were not trying to offend her......or you can ask her if she has a solution to recommend. If she does, then hear it and you can decide if it's acceptable or not. The point is not to just sit there and take her bashing (or as you called it taking on the chin). Don't put up a defense, just tell her you are sorry she sees it that way........and if necessary, you can walk into another room to put some temporary distance between you.
She doesn't have both feet in the MR yet. I suggest you pay attention to what she was doing right before her mood shifts and she starts accusing you of something. For instance, when you and S went out to throw a ball........she was left alone with her phone. There are sooooo many triggers. Also, if she has a friend or relative who makes negative suggestions about the M or you...........then it fuels another angry round of accusations.
Keep laughing, you have a lot to be happy about. Tough for me to say, but I truly believe that there are big things in store for you and me.
LW
LW - No doubt there are big things in store. Have no clue what the path will bring, but got your back!
Sandi,
It most certainly feels like entrapment. She most certainly cares about public opinion (has always had self-esteem issues) and has openly said that she sees that a lot of her "validation" comes from social media.
As far as scripted mode, I have caught myself a couple of times hearing some phrases from these boards come to mind and have immediately backed off. The one that kind of caught her attention was "I am going to move forward with my life with or without you." Which I think mainly caught her off guard because for the first time she realized that I have thought of life without her. She also had complained in the past she only felt like I "needed" her because she was the only woman who had ever loved me (my mommy issues), and I explained that I "wanted" a life with her, but that I would be just fine on my own. Self-confidence is not something I lack, and she knows this.
She has always been hypersensitive, and one that does not let go easily. She is not an apology and move on kind of person, it takes a lot of action to move forward with her. Which is fine, I am willing to do that (and have w/ the porn.). However, she lives double standard in that she wants the world to forgive, but I should simply take "i'm sorry" and move on.
Her complaints are mainly that "I get so mad at her all the time." I validate by saying "I understand that you think I am mad, and I am sorry that is how you feel, but I am not mad at you." She feels like when I get quiet and avoid the fights, that I am being passive aggressive. I may have grown into a type of "nice-guy" over the years, but that is mainly in part to control the anger that could explode at any moment. I have learned to control myself over the years, but may have taken it too far and taken too much.
We are in MC once a week, and she willingly goes, and from what he says "our R has become toxic, due to the porn and the A." So we must remove the toxicity before we can begin to rebuild. He is of the opinion that our old marriage died, and it is time to rebuild. He specializes in A recovery, so I think we are in the right place as far as that goes.
I see some of the mistakes I have made, and am currently rectifying these as we go. However, there is definitely knit-picking also because she feels so much guilt (this is a killer for her) and tries to take the light off of her sins.
I see what you mean by not having both feet in, and looking back, she normally lashes out when I bring up something she may have some guilt about. I.e. Facebook. That has always been a complaint of mine, that she spends more time on there than paying attention to me. When I brought that up last night, there was no reason she should have been upset about my words, but she saw that I noticed she was on there constantly during dinner, and felt guilty for it.
I know of one friend (a younger girl who works for her) that is more about being a "fun friend" than encouraging an A, or pulling her away from me. She only sees the stress in my W life and tries to help relieve that (she doesn't know my W caused her own stress).
Her family all tells me the same thing (I don't go them for advice), they just know the sitch and tell me, "put her out on her own, let her see what she's missing." I also know that blood is thicker than water and take that with a grain of salt.
She may be in contact with OM, but if she is she knows she can only carry that guilt for so long or before I find out. Also, she has changed her phone habits tremendously (she leaves phone around me, offers for me to see it whenever) which i know means very little, but it is far better than the activity when I know the EA/PA was going on.
I guess, Sandi, my main thing here is trying to let her heal herself, and be supportive, but also not laying down and being walked on. Just trying to find that balance is the hardest part for me.
I keep going back to what you said early on in my posts about her being so lost and never feeling like she can be in love with me again. I just struggle to make sure that I be the best I can be for me and my S, but also to let her know that I will fight for US.
Thanks for all your help!
LW
Since she is not feeling the way she use to feel about you, it scares her into doubting those feelings will ever return. It just takes time to heal. If we could see the emotional damage the way we can see a physical part of our body destroyed..........maybe we could see how the healing was progressing. Even if she is being honest with you, her feelings cannot "snap" back.
My advice for you at this point, is not the same that I would tell a H who had a W that refused to work on the M. Just want to clarify this for anyone reading this thread.
LW - Sorry for borrowing your thread for a follow-up with Sandi. Feel free to use mine anytime!!
Sandi - Curious what the difference would be for a H who had a W that refused to work on the M in the above example? I know this is a gigantic issue for my W that she has to deal with (doubt that feelings would ever return). How should I approach?
I know of one friend (a younger girl who works for her) that is more about being a "fun friend" than encouraging an A, or pulling her away from me. She only sees the stress in my W life and tries to help relieve that (she doesn't know my W caused her own stress).
LW - My W has one of these too and I'm glad she does to try and eliminate some of the stress. Only concern is too much "grass is greener" thoughts here.
I keep going back to what you said early on in my posts about her being so lost and never feeling like she can be in love with me again. I just struggle to make sure that I be the best I can be for me and my S, but also to let her know that I will fight for US.
It seems like your W knows that you will fight. She knows through your actions, your commitment to counseling, etc. Keep the focus on you and your S.
Tryin-
Use my thread ANYTIME, you have helped me so much, it's the least I can do.
The "grass is greener" idea my wife has used as her reasoning (not excuses) many times. I just worry that my W sees how freely this girl lives (she's 24, just married, no kids). She hasn't hit real life yet. She still gets to party and go and come as she pleases, I know her husband (we're friends) and that will come to a crashing halt any day. I don't think this girl would ever encourage an A (as she doesn't know the details completely of our R), but she may not stop one either.
My W definitely knows I will fight for us. However, when I told her I'll be okay with or without her, she went into either panic or temp checking mode, and made sure there wasn't another girl or that I still wanted this R. I told her, "you are what I want" but "I won't lay down in the floor and stop living if you leave." That hit her pretty hard, but she still can't carry on a real R conversation as she "doesn't know or can't say what she wants for sure." Her whole life has been driven by fear, and that is what is driving this now. I hate to tell her that once she leaves the comforts of someone who protected her for almost 12 years, everything else becomes a lot more scary. She may have to figure out the hard way.
Hello LW2381,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It sounds like a bit of mind reading going on here. How does your wife definitely know that you will fight for your marriage?
It sounds like your changes have been noticed, just difficult to believe at this point. These changes need to be made for you and your son. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words.
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
My W definitely knows I will fight for us. However, when I told her I'll be okay with or without her, she went into either panic or temp checking mode, and made sure there wasn't another girl or that I still wanted this R. I told her, "you are what I want" but "I won't lay down in the floor and stop living if you leave." That hit her pretty hard, but she still can't carry on a real R conversation as she "doesn't know or can't say what she wants for sure." Her whole life has been driven by fear, and that is what is driving this now. I hate to tell her that once she leaves the comforts of someone who protected her for almost 12 years, everything else becomes a lot more scary. She may have to figure out the hard way.
I came close to saying something like this yesterday when we were talking about our "new norm". I almost blurted out that I'm not concerned about meeting someone else (last time I was crushed and couldn't imagine being with anyone else), but I'm just in it for the 4 of us.
I stopped short because of not trying the pursue here when I know she needs space. She was taken aback when she noticed I took of my wedding ring even before she did hers.
Honestly, if D happens and I'm dating again, I'll find that fun and I'm ok with it. I just honestly think there is so much good in our family unit that it's worth all this and just sticking through my "no regrets" policy I'm going with.
Keep it up LW!!
Tryin-
I'm with you, completely. Our family unit is remarkable together, but S is starting to pick up on the dissension b/w me and W. We absolutely leave the room if it starts to get heated (not his fault nor problem), but none the less he knows. Kids are astute at picking up on this stuff.
The wedding ring has been up and down for me...believe it or not, that has been one of the hardest parts for me. She doesn't wear her engagement/wedding ring (made into one years ago), but she wears another ring on that finger...a cheap one she bought. Don't know how to take that, bc she says it matches her gold jewelry and "the one" is white gold/platinum (this sounds like pure BS to me), but she wears a ring on that finger still. I wear mine sometimes (depends on my mood), but this has been part of detaching from the most awful roller coaster ever. Regardless of what she is feeling, I decide in the morning if I am there are not. Probably childish, but this helps me deal. If she has noticed (she probably has), she hasn't said anything. Part of me wishes she would say something, anything.
Makes me think of something else, a failure perhaps. Sunday night, the day had been up and down, but we were in a good place. She got home from shopping with her sister, and I mentioned "I'm going to run some errands." It was 8:30 on a Sunday night, so there wasn't much I could've been doing, but I just really wanted a reaction. I got one, "really, are you leaving, where are you going", I said, "just out for a while". My S said, "daddy where are you going"? She said it loud enough for him to hear, so he asked with a sad face. Well played on her part (she can be a master manipulator), so I said "nowhere, daddy will play with you and put you to bed." Screw her, it was about us at that point. But she did get me to stay. Just though about that, I feel like I've been had.
Dating will not be an issue on my part (as far as finding someone). I hate to sound wrapped up in me, but that is truly not my fear, I can find someone else, I (like everyone else on this board who is willing to fight for what we want/believe in, is a catch.) But more than anything, I want HER. I have no fear of not finding someone else, I have come to grips with the idea that I am a good guy and will be fine. However, I can't lie, especially to people who are in the same spot as me, this is the girl I want, bar-none.
That said, no regrets Tryin, keep up the fight. I guess just not at the expense of our own happiness or sanity.
Those words my separated wife says to me all the time too. Be careful, my SW is living in our house (I"m staying at a friends to give her space) and she is constantly talking to and seeing OM. Those words to me mean "I can't make it on my own yet" Good luck
I have to agree with this. It really stinks when you're the safety net, you KNOW you're the safety net, and the other party acts like you don't know what you're talking about.
I've also discovered "I can't do or say anything right" is code for "I'm going to blame you because my lie didn't work."
EastTN,
This is so true, but truthfully, it makes me feel a lot better to know that when that comes out of her mouth (and it will, again and again), that it is really not me or you, or any of us, it is on them, and they have "a lot of monkeys, and a crazy circus."
Be Well-
LW
She has always been hypersensitive, and one that does not let go easily. She is not an apology and move on kind of person, it takes a lot of action to move forward with her. Which is fine, I am willing to do that (and have w/ the porn.). However, she lives double standard in that she wants the world to forgive, but I should simply take "i'm sorry" and move on.
Have these issues been covered in the MC sessions? In order for her to heal emotionally and have a chance at a happy MR.........she
must let go of her resentment toward you and forgive you for the past. She may require a lot of professional and spiritual guidance. Waywardness has at
least three main issues.....resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. If she is unwilling to work through these issues and forgive you for the past...........she will not experience peace and freedom in her spirit and these issues will continue to tear at the MR. They will also hold back the remorse, b/c as long as she can blame you for her unhappiness.........she feels her affair was justified.
Her complaints are mainly that "I get so mad at her all the time." I validate by saying "I understand that you think I am mad, and I am sorry that is how you feel, but I am not mad at you." She feels like when I get quiet and avoid the fights, that I am being passive aggressive. I may have grown into a type of "nice-guy" over the years, but that is mainly in part to control the anger that could explode at any moment. I have learned to control myself over the years, but may have taken it too far and taken too much.
Have you ever tried anger management or had group therapy for your anger?
I'll share this about my family. Growing up. I use to think my dad was mad when he spoke to me in a serious tone. His siblings had the same traits. When I grew up and was teaching a group of teenagers, I had one of them to tell me they often thought I was angry when I taught. It shocked me down to my toes! I was not angry whatsoever. I felt very passionate about what I taught..........but I was not mad at anyone.
I said all of that to suggest it could be "how" you sound or appear to her. Have you ever heard a tape or seen a video of yourself when you did not realize it was being recorded? Do you believe she has a legitimate reason to feel you are mad at her all the time, or do you think she is over reacting due to her hypersensitivity?
We are in MC once a week, and she willingly goes, and from what he says "our R has become toxic, due to the porn and the A." So we must remove the toxicity before we can begin to rebuild. He is of the opinion that our old marriage died, and it is time to rebuild. He specializes in A recovery, so I think we are in the right place as far as that goes.
Great! Hopefully, s/he will give you the tools to remove the toxicity and rebuild a new MR. Old behaviors
can change, but it is easy to get lazy about sticking to new ones. People need solutions as to how to get to where they want the MR.
I see what you mean by not having both feet in, and looking back, she normally lashes out when I bring up something she may have some guilt about. I.e. Facebook. That has always been a complaint of mine, that she spends more time on there than paying attention to me. When I brought that up last night, there was no reason she should have been upset about my words, but she saw that I noticed she was on there constantly during dinner, and felt guilty for it.
Why not suggest to her about giving each other the opportunity to exchange just one bad habit in etiquette? Your request would be that she not bring her phone to the table during meals (or turn the phone off). She may make a request equally. Don't make a laundry list of house rules......just one rule of etiquette you each agree to accept out of consideration for your spouse.
I keep going back to what you said early on in my posts about her being so lost and never feeling like she can be in love with me again. I just struggle to make sure that I be the best I can be for me and my S, but also to let her know that I will fight for US.
As a Christian I am taught to live my life as unto the Lord. That means being my best even when nobody else sees me, and doing it b/c of Him. I figure if I can live in such a way that is acceptable to Him, that's the highest and best that I can possibly accomplish.
That feeling of having lost one's moral/spiritual compass is why I encourage the necessity for therapy in healing after an affair. Each of you have different fears for the future and head visions of the past.........including the affair, the porn, etc. You may experience resentment hitting you hard......at a later time. It is all a part of the painful healing. Once you feel she is back, your focus may shift and thoughts/emotions rise up about what she has done. It's very challenging b/c you're going at different speeds and not always in the same lane. The destination should be the same, but getting there tells the story of two individuals working through a terrible crisis. When you stop and think about it..........an affair in a MR is one destructive force that most people won't lay aside their personal views and join together to work as a team in supporting the wounded. You will get a lot of advice/viewpoints, but the work is left to the two spouses. You can't do her healing, and she can't do yours.
My dad told me something on my wedding day that I have never forgotten. "Marriage can face most anything, as long as love remains the foundation".
The first time around was easier b/c the feelings came first and then the work. The second time around requires doing the work first and then the feelings will follow.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Since she is not feeling the way she use to feel about you, it scares her into doubting those feelings will ever return. It just takes time to heal. If we could see the emotional damage the way we can see a physical part of our body destroyed..........maybe we could see how the healing was progressing. Even if she is being honest with you, her feelings cannot "snap" back.
My advice for you at this point, is not the same that I would tell a H who had a W that refused to work on the M. Just want to clarify this for anyone reading this thread.
Sandi - Curious what the difference would be for a H who had a W that refused to work on the M in the above example? I know this is a gigantic issue for my W that she has to deal with (doubt that feelings would ever return). How should I approach?
Well thank you for asking. Actually, I talked about that subject in more detail in my threads about the mindset of the WW. The first one is posted on Cadet's welcome post.
Well thank you for asking. Actually, I talked about that subject in more detail in my threads about the mindset of the WW. The first one is posted on Cadet's welcome post.
Thanks Sandi. So many reference points between the book and the blog, I can't keep up. Will go back to this again.
Sandi,
Wow. Amazing as usual.
Yes some of that has come up in MC, and we have even discussed that she has held onto to everything for so long, that it is eating away at her soul and the MR. Once again, I know my part in this, as it is not all her, but she doesn't let go of anything. MC also thinks that this is part of why there has seemed little if any remorse. We are trying to work through that with MC, but it is a day by day process for us.
As far as the anger goes, I have worked through that with IC, and from what he sees, it is not so much an anger issue as it is, like you said, "how" I portray it. I was a youth pastor for several years (until all of this happened) and my students/leaders often commented about my tone, and speech patterns. Not that I was angry, but more so that I can be very "matter of fact" in my tone and body language.
In combination with her hypersensitivity, it is a dangerous combination. I am working daily on my "how" i speak and react, and I guess that is all I can do. I really do not get angry about much and sometimes I feel like that may be used against me as a "scape-goat" for what she has done/is doing.
I will try that rule exchange, and see how that goes. I have never considered a trade, but that is a really good idea!
As a Christian myself, I always try to hold myself to that same standard, "if it is pleasing to him." I do see that in some respects (as naturally a crisis does) it has drawn me closer to the lord. Early on in the process I was angry with Him, but I have since realized that his plans are not only bigger than I can see, but also than he can do far more than we can imagine. So I have drawn nearer to him. My W, however, has done the opposite. She has always been the far more faithful believer of the two of us, and is in part a big reason I found the Lord again. She has lost her spiritual compass, and the MC is intent on helping her and me regain that with each other.
Even only a few months into this, and I can already see the similarities and differences in what we are both facing. Some days, we feel/act/react like we are on different planets. On others, we both realize we ultimately want the same thing, to be loved by each other. When I first found out about the A, I made a choice to choose love and to put our MR first, and to work through this together. However, since forgiveness/letting go doesn't come easy for her, she is struggling to forgive herself , so that seems to be a major hurdle in dealing with this crisis. She has told me that if "she never forgave me for the past, and she can't forgive herself, how could I forgive her?" She often tells me, "you'll never trust me again, because I've never trusted you again."
The feelings can return and that is exactly what the MC says. If we do the work, the love can and will return. I have told her repeatedly that I am on board for the long-haul and am ready to do the work, I am just praying earnestly that God softens her heart and we can move through this together.
-LW
Good stuff LW. Keep it up.
Thanks Tryin-
I am TRULY praying for you and you sitch, specifically.
-LW
Appreciate it LW. There's definitely help in numbers on this board. Always good to know people are in the trenches together through this.
Update/Journaling:
So last night was okay, got home from work, we were pleasant with each other. Went to bed, before she goes to sleep she leaned over and said "Goodnight, I love you", and kissed me. As I was trying to tell her back "I love you" my S jumped between us (just playing) and accidentally hit her in the face. She said to him "you just hit me in the face (no anger), and laid her head down. I never even got to say ILY back. About 30 min she rolls over and says to me, "I hope you remember this night, I told you GN and ILY, and you couldn't even say it back." I told her I was sorry, that I was trying and then my S jumped on her. She was extremely angry. I kissed her goodbye this morning (she was still asleep) like a always do and told her ILY. Just venting, I have no idea how she will be today....or if we'll even speak.
That is how most things go lately, nothing explodes into something. So frustrating.
Also her Birthday is Sunday, and I bought her a SPA day, shoes, and some other stuff. I have asked her 3 times if she wanted to go out for her birthday Sat. night, and she avoids it every time. However, yesterday she mentioned her friend (the young one mentioned in previous replies) wanted to do a girls night for their birthdays. It really bothers me that she will jump to for this, but I have mentioned taking her out several times and am totally ignored. Do I just let this go, Do tell her that it bothers me? Do I just set something up for me to do Sat night, or stay home with S so she can go? Really don't know how to handle this....
-LW
That is how most things go lately, nothing explodes into something. So frustrating.
LW - This is how it goes and yes it is frustrating. I spent some time yesterday going back over my piecing blogs here from 4 years ago and I was floored at how difficult it all was. I don't remember the struggle that we went through, so I guess out of sight out of mind. Patience, marathon are big deals.
Also her Birthday is Sunday, and I bought her a SPA day, shoes, and some other stuff. I have asked her 3 times if she wanted to go out for her birthday Sat. night, and she avoids it every time. However, yesterday she mentioned her friend (the young one mentioned in previous replies) wanted to do a girls night for their birthdays. It really bothers me that she will jump to for this, but I have mentioned taking her out several times and am totally ignored. Do I just let this go, Do tell her that it bothers me? Do I just set something up for me to do Sat night, or stay home with S so she can go? Really don't know how to handle this....
Ask her if she'd like to do a birthday thing with you and S or if she'd prefer girls night. It's her birthday and let her do what she wants to do. She might chose girls night and that's ok because it's her birthday. She might really appreciate the gesture of choice.
My W slipped last night texting and it was a bit harsh. She was at her female co-worker's apartment and was letting me know she'd be late. She told me to tell the kids goodnight and give them kisses and finished with "I Love Y'all". And then got an additional text that said "Love Them Sorry".
I was actually glad she clarified because I'd probably use the other as a sign, a reason to hope, blah, blah, blah. Still stung but good gut check.
"I hope you remember this night, I told you GN and ILY, and you couldn't even say it back."
If willingness to forgive an A isnt the ultimate ILY i dont know what is.
All the best luck on saving your M.
Even only a few months into this, and I can already see the similarities and differences in what we are both facing. Some days, we feel/act/react like we are on different planets. On others, we both realize we ultimately want the same thing, to be loved by each other. When I first found out about the A, I made a choice to choose love and to put our MR first, and to work through this together. However, since forgiveness/letting go doesn't come easy for her, she is struggling to forgive herself , so that seems to be a major hurdle in dealing with this crisis. She has told me that if "she never forgave me for the past, and she can't forgive herself, how could I forgive her?" She often tells me, "you'll never trust me again, because I've never trusted you again."
Forgiveness is a choice. A person cannot earn forgiveness, b/c true forgiveness is an act of grace. Christians should be able to understand that concept. However, I know some folks who just carry the title........without actually doing what the scriptures teach.
I understand how difficult it is to forgive herself. That was very hard for me, and I've learned how certain things can trigger remorse again. I have also learned that whenever old feelings threaten to open wounds, you have to tell yourself that you chose to forgive.......and you
still choose to forgive. Not allowing old resentments to setup house in our heart. The feelings from forgiving someone (even yourself) doesn't necessarily occur instantly, but they'll get there.
Your W may not be able to forgive you of everything in one big scoop. She may have to break it down and take the smaller issues first......and work her way up to the more serious. Holding back forgiveness places her in the same boat as her offender. Her ability to forgive is attached to her willingness. Her problem is that she doesn't want to forgive.
Forgiveness is a choice. A person cannot earn forgiveness, b/c true forgiveness is an act of grace.
Beautiful. In my process now, I'm learning how forgiveness of self and others is key to moving forward. As I'm wrestling the depression I've now learned that I have, I'm seeing sources of this throughout my life and working towards forgiveness of others.
My parents are wonderful, but they also sheltered me too much as a child. We always hid problems and ignored them so they wouldn't cause heartaches, issues, etc. I'm learning my withdrawls, depression were happening because there were feelings I trapped to not cause issues and that led me to my natural defense mechanism being withdrawal. I'm working towards forgiveness (not sure when it will come) because I'm struggling with how to go about it. I know I will figure this out and I think it's important for me to move forward.
True forgiveness not only relieves pressure, tension of the one who is forgiven, but is cleansing for the person who forgives.
Update and now terribly confused:
So after our spat last night, she just texted me and said "I have been trying really hard lately, and I feel like you just don't want me around." She then says, I feel like "you're playing games" bc my FB doesn't say I'm married. I don't even really know how to change that? I am not a social media guy...I have told her repeatedly "I want you, I want us and nothing or nobody else. She says, "I don't know what you want bc you say one thing and then act another way." I have been trying to give her space, I don't text or call during the day very often, and when we are home I am not physically affectionate, bc I feel like she needs to initiate on her terms. No intimate contact at all, nor has there been any allusion to that. This is fine, I don't push for it, but I am also trying not to be clingy or needy, so I don't know what to do or how to act. She has said "I don't know what I want" so I don't push. She says, "I ignore her every night, and I don't make any effort to have any conversation with her". What am I supposed to do? I have backed off, I am not cold, I still say ILY, kiss her, hug her, and try to be playful. I feel like all the emotions she is feeling (like she's losing me) are being pushed off onto me to make me feel guilty. I am tired of being the safety net here. I refuses to say she wants to be with me, and her actions look more like she is just biding her time then trying to be my W.
How do I act???? I want her to know what I want her, but I am not going to be needy or clingy either. Why doesn't she see the hurt, confusion, and uncertainty that I am feeling????
I apologize for the previous rant, I am normally much more calm and put together than that. It really just throws me into fits when I am made out to be the bad guy for giving her space, it almost seems that it drives her nuts when I do my own thing. I am not cold or distant, I just try to occupy my time, and not follow her around the house like a puppy dog. I know the goal is for me to be happier, and I am, but then she freaks and I'm on the front row of her freakin' roller coaster.
To address all of the amazing previous posts:
Tryin-That's a good idea, I will suggest a night with either me or me and S. If she chooses girls night, that's cool, but do I stay home with S? Do I find a sitter and do my own thing? What is the best play here. I do want her to know that I am not going to sit idly by while she goes out, but I also think it may mean a lot for me to watch S, so she can do her thing. Decisions, decisions.
Well played on the mistaken text. I get those sometimes with the I love you, quickly changed to I love y'all. God forbid she give me any glimpse that she may actually love me.
Btrow-You are right, I CHOSE to move past this, at the time she said "I never thought you really loved me, but this proves you do." So forgiving the A (for a moment at least) was the ultimate ILY. Then she proceeded to tell me, she felt like I was only doing it to prove a point....not sure what point, but ok.
Sandi- You are the best. I am fully prepared to work through the forgiveness in stages. The resentment is big for her, she will not admit it, but resentment set up in her heart a long time ago, and has slowly been building, up until this point. I know I am the cause of a lot of that, but can only do so much to rectify it. Most of that is on her, and I am earnestly praying for the softening of her heart, because she doesn't want to forgive as of now.
Thank you all for everything, I can't tell you how much these boards mean.
Be Well
LW
I think it's b/c she is using you as the scape goat. If this is the pattern she used in the past, why wouldn't she use it now?
I don't think a wayward can be left to heal in their own way, b/c they need guidance in the healthy way. She needs information about the addictive power of affairs, and how her resentment has eaten away her loving feelings for you. I don't think she will listen to you give her that information, but if she really wanted help in saving the MR.........it seems she would seek how to do it correctly. However, if she believes she is right and refuses to accept her part of the breakdown, then she probably won't seek help.........unless you make it manatory. Blindness to self and unwillingness are her enemies.
I think she is so wrapped up in her own feelings that she is not seeing your pain. For so long now, she has blamed you for the condition of the MR, and for her unhappiness. Until she learns through therapy or reading material with an open mind.......she may not recover from her negative attitude toward the M.
I don't know what she's done that classifies her "working so hard", unless she is referring to NC with OM. Have you been able to see her attempting to make things better between you? I'll be honest and tell you that I had no desire, whatsoever, to put forth any effort. I blamed my H for the problems, but thankfully, I was getting information from the board and soon saw my excuses for what they were.
Another thought behind this constant blaming, is the possibility of her sneaking contact with OM. If so, the blaming would be used as her attack/defense mechanism.
Sandi-
You are exactly right, to the letter. I see that she can see my pain bc she is so wrapped up in her own feelings. That is spot-on, there has never been truer words spoken. However, anyone that could/would speak truth to her has been cut out. Including her family. She is going to MC with me, but it seems as more as a formality to say "she tried everything".
I agree that she won't get help, I have tried (lovingly) to tell her she needs her own IC. However, I KNOW, that if I make it mandatory she will bolt. I know this because as you say, she hasn't done anything to improve the MR. Not transparency, no remorse, etc. And like, you it appears as though, she has no desire to put forth any effort. Any time it is addressed, she says "I'm here, so that should tell you what I want." Eventually, her excuses will catch up with her, but I fear that I won't be around, and I mean that. I am a good guy, I made mistakes, but there are people out there who will Love me (and I am learning to love myself, in spite of bad choices) no matter what.
She may be in contact with OM, but as my MC says, no point in snooping, bc bible says "all sins will come to light." She told me the first time anything happened, so the guilt was too much. So if she is in contact, not my monkeys. I have me and my S to fight for now. I am tired of being the scape goat for her circus though. She is starting to see that, that I am not putting up with her crap. I think that is why she is using the "you don't want me" trap. I haven't been cold or distant at all, i am just not at her beck and call anymore. She doesn't always know where I am (she did before bc of trust issues and my attempt at maintaining honesty and accountability). However, the tables have turned and she can't stand the pressure. MC said don't ask for cell-phone login (because of her fragile emotional state), but what do you think, do i ask and see if she balks? I feel like that would be a sure-fire way to know at least some of her standing (even though I know there are ways around it)?
Also, finding a person faith is truly a blessing. I feel as though at times, I have told God "I can't do this" you take it. However, I also know that he wants us to stand up for ourselves, so when I turn my worries over to him, I feel relief, but she comes back with "it's obvious you just don't care." Do i keep letting God have it, and put a smile on and love her, or do I fight for me?
Thanks-
LW
Also, finding a person faith is truly a blessing. I feel as though at times, I have told God "I can't do this" you take it. However, I also know that he wants us to stand up for ourselves, so when I turn my worries over to him, I feel relief, but she comes back with "it's obvious you just don't care." Do i keep letting God have it, and put a smile on and love her, or do I fight for me?
Pull it together LW... you got this!! You probably get to do a little of all of the above!!! She's not stable right now, so you're going to get that up and down.
Best of luck.
Yeah, about that up and down, I'm not sure how much more of that I can take. I'm tired of being blamed (I'm not perfect, but enough is enough), I'm almost at my breaking point. I don't deserve this crap, and could do better on my own. I almost feel like I'm starting to feel jaded by all of this. I'm not scared by much, and I am definitely not scared to figure this out without her.
LW
LW,
Feeling jaded is totally natural and it goes with the territory. Try to just take a step back and breathe. What are you doing for yourself today, for this weekend? Got any plans with your S? If not, make some.
Distraction is key to not being swallowed in the mess. GAL. You got this.
Trying
LW... hope all is well and you enjoy your weekend.
Also, finding a person faith is truly a blessing. I feel as though at times, I have told God "I can't do this" you take it. However, I also know that he wants us to stand up for ourselves, so when I turn my worries over to him, I feel relief, but she comes back with "it's obvious you just don't care." Do i keep letting God have it, and put a smile on and love her, or do I fight for me?
Your W is using emotional blackmail when she says those things. Instead of her getting serious about the work she needs to do, she transfers her guilt to make it sound as if all the work is your responsibility. I suspect this is not a new behavior for her. In the past, didn't she use similar statements to make you feel guilty? Thing is, nothing you do will be good enough in her opinion, as long as she stays in this rut.
I don't understand why the MC is reluctant about setting a transparency plan. What does he mean that she's too fragile? Who is so fragile that they can't be honest and willing to show their spouse they have nothing to hide?
Her using the excuse that she's "there".........as if that should be all that's required of her, is not acceptable. If the MC doesn't get that message across, then it may be left up to you. Each of you have work in saving this MR. Nobody gets a free pass.......and IMHO, that's exactly what she is trying to do. Her attitude is practically saying that you deserve no more from her than just her physical presence. I can relate to it, b/c her resentment tells her that she was justified to have OM, and that you are lucky she didn't leave you. Her mindset is twisted.
I don't think we have to
smile at the person who is not respecting us, nor the spouse who betrayed us and refuses to cooperate and do their part of the heavy lifting to heal the MR. Acting as if there are no issues or required work from a WW, is exactly her preference.......but it dooms the MR. The WW has been known to skirt around her own part of the breakdown, and continue blaming her H. That is exactly what she's doing.........and the MC sounds too weak in his approach, IMO. Transparency has a purpose for both the faithful and unfaithful spouse. Otherwise, it's like expecting an acoholic or drug addict to go cold turkey and stay clean without any accountability and support. It's just too easy to turn to the additiction when accountability is not required.
On the spiritual side, I believe we can leave our worries & fear with God. I have experienced it when, usually, it was a situation where I had zero control. It is how we build our faith muscles, b/c it absolutely takes trust in Him to handle the outcome. Yes, I believe He gives us the sense to take care of ourselves to the best of our ability, and take care of our family, etc. Anyway............getting back to your question about giving it to God or fight for yourself. Why do you see that as two separate avenues?
How do you see "fighting" for yourself?