And now begins Thread #3
Thread #1: Background, me not DBing, and first leg of my DB journey
Thread #2: Separating
Now begins yet another experience I never imagined - mediation to separate from my wife.
Hi kevinin I have read your story and my god we are both the same waw, 2 kids, using headspace. I hope that we can continue to support each other through this minefield of divorce we both seem not to want...
I hope that we can continue to support each other through this minefield of divorce we both seem not to want...
I agree.
W just called to say hi to the kids. I feel positive she was with OM. The odd things she was saying made me think it.
I'm doing a good job detaching, but i still find that her behavior p!sses me off sometimes.
W just called to say hi to the kids. I feel positive she was with OM. The odd things she was saying made me think it.
I'm doing a good job detaching, but i still find that her behavior p!sses me off sometimes.
Mine did the same on Friday. Living it up, as she has done since BD. Oh well.
I just realized last friday was 4 weeks since our last MC appointment, which was also the last time i said anything about our relationship. And it's been 7 weeks since i started detaching and not talking about our relationship.
We've only talked about kid logistics and mediation.
It's been super hard. But, i have surprised myself that i haven't slipped up.
Because I've been good at not talking to her, i have no clue if its doing anything to her thoughts on us. I assume not yet (or if ever), so im going to keep it up.
Because I've been good at not talking to her, i have no clue if its doing anything to her thoughts on us. I assume not yet (or if ever), so im going to keep it up.
If she was interested, she'd let you know.
Are you in close agreement for the mediation?
Are you in close agreement for the mediation?
Yes, for the custody issues.
We havent discussed financial stuff yet, and i have no clue whats going on in her head with that.
Your doing so well hat of to you. I hope I can get to that point of not speaking to mine.
New here and just read up on your situation. I'm also at the separation contract stage so it intrigued me. My H demanded an agreement on October 31. I'm a lawyer, he's a doctor. He is a notorious cheapskate and lazy as can be. I said he would have to file for divorce, but he did some sketchy money stuff and I decided the separation contract was in my best interest so told him I would work with an attorney to put something together. We had two or three tense in person meetings at our house. He tried to get out of coming here. Said he hated being here, hated looking at me, hated hearing my voice. Lawyer took off in Dec and agreement not done until early January.
I've had it sitting on my computer since then. He has not asked me for it and I have not given it to him. He was ignoring my kids entirely (they are older). Over the holidays he appears to have mostly broken up with OW, moved out of her house (he moved straight from our house in early Oct into hers).
Suddenly he is trying to come to the house to see the kids. At first he wouldn't come in the house, now he bounds up the stairs. The last time he took a nap on a sofa in the LR while he waited for one of the kids.
I never contact him. Make him contact me for anything he wants. Kids are older and have phones. He texts them. They don't respond. He doesn't see them. Then he texts me and I give him a time and he shows up. I try to be gone. He gets close for a few weeks, then runs away. Last weekend he posted a poem on FB about a father and husband longing to return home. I ignored it. He is sending emotional texts to the kids that are actually about them now, not just a group text to both that says nothing.
When he left he said he hated me and wanted as far from me as he could get. He said I was alienating him from the kids. He said he was happier than he has ever been. He and the OW didn't last even a couple of months despite an ongoing affair of 3 years before I kicked him out. He said horrible things.
I just keep ignoring him. I only respond to polite requests that pertain to the kids or the house. I never initiate anything, ever. When he asks for the Separation Contract I will give it to him no questions asked. I will not file for divorce for him.
These affairs do not last forever. They are cloaked in mystery and spontaneity and excitement when hidden. There is nothing real in them. The relationship doesn't become real until it is in the open and the LBS ignores it and gets on with life. When she isn't busy commiserating with him about how unreasonable you are or how you ticked her off, they will have nothing to bond over. She will see his laziness and his lack of involvement. It will put her off. Keep up your boxing and your reawakening.
I can see why often the LBS gives up waiting. I feel myself heading there even though he is making positive signs for the first time in a very long time. When you actually GAL and see them for who they really are (and it sounds like you are finally doing that), you realize they are not a great prize and happiness and living without tension and withholding start looking a lot more appealing.
Helies - thank you for taking the time to read about my situation and provide such a thoughtful response. The timing was perfect, since im resisting a moment of weakness to contact her.
Helies - thank you for taking the time to read about my situation and provide such a thoughtful response. The timing was perfect, since im resisting a moment of weakness to contact her.
Moments of weakness happened quite often, until...
Had a brief kid exchange this morning with the W. Aftet i left, I realized that i had zero emotion while she was around - no anger, no love, no desire to have a relationship talk, nothing.
I was nice and pleasant, but i didnt feel anything. It was like she was a coworker.
Had a brief kid exchange this morning with the W. Aftet i left, I realized that i had zero emotion while she was around - no anger, no love, no desire to have a relationship talk, nothing.
I was nice and pleasant, but i didnt feel anything. It was like she was a coworker.
\
I think you are getting there, my friend. There is zero emotion left on my end, too. Except for some anger when she does her stupid shite.
Had a brief kid exchange this morning with the W. Aftet i left, I realized that i had zero emotion while she was around - no anger, no love, no desire to have a relationship talk, nothing.
I was nice and pleasant, but i didnt feel anything. It was like she was a coworker.
That's awesome good work fella I hope that I get to that point soon. I can don it over text just not so good at the face to face part yet.
We are taking turns at our house right now and its my turn to be away. I forgot something, so i swung by last night to get it. Wifes mom was there - she picked up older daughter from school and was there making them all dinner.
Its so annoying that she has a support system to make her life easy right now, while she is leaving the marriage, having an affair, etc.
Her mom barely acknowledged me, like im the one who did something wrong. Her sister from out of town was there and was super nice like nothing is wrong (sister knows everything and has met OM).
Sure would be nice to be able to move with my kids to be near my family so my life would be easier.
Her mom barely acknowledged me, like im the one who did something wrong. Her sister from out of town was there and was super nice like nothing is wrong (sister knows everything and has met OM).
A lot of morals running around that place (said sarcastically)... Protect your kids.
Her mom barely acknowledged me, like im the one who did something wrong. Her sister from out of town was there and was super nice like nothing is wrong (sister knows everything and has met OM).
Hmmmm. That sounds pretty judgmental.
I was kind of upset with my ex's family for not being more pro-marriage at first. But ultimately, Im glad that the support was there as my kids need that stability on both sides.
My guess is MIL wasnt sure how to talk to you. Its likely just as awkward for her as it is for you.
MIL wasnt sure how to talk to you. Its likely just as awkward for her as it is for you.
Quite possibly. Or it could be that the MIL despises him - especially if his wife has been filling their heads with lies and nonsense.
Hmmmm. That sounds pretty judgmental.
It is. I acknowledge that. Just needed to vent.
I was kind of upset with my ex's family for not being more pro-marriage at first. But ultimately, Im glad that the support was there as my kids need that stability on both sides.
Generally speaking, i agree. Its good for them to have the support. Until the affair, i thought they were good people, and other than condoning her adultery, they are. The support will be good for the kids in the long run.
My guess is MIL wasnt sure how to talk to you. Its likely just as awkward for her as it is for you.
Deep down, i know this is the truth. Its super awkward on her. Probably more than it is for me. She doesn't have the personality/emotions to process this well.
MIL wasnt sure how to talk to you. Its likely just as awkward for her as it is for you.
Quite possibly. Or it could be that the MIL despises him - especially if his wife has been filling their heads with lies and nonsense.
This could also be true. I have no clue what story my wife is telling people to get them to sympathize with her.
This could also be true. I have no clue what story my wife is telling people to get them to sympathize with her.
You won't ever get the truth out of them...and its best to just let that sleeping dog lie.
What is the first thing someone does when they try to cover up stuff?
This could also be true. I have no clue what story my wife is telling people to get them to sympathize with her.
You won't ever get the truth out of them...and its best to just let that sleeping dog lie.
What is the first thing someone does when they try to cover up stuff?
I should have added one line to my response. "Nor do i care what shes telling people."
So I just spent 4 hours at a 6 year olds birthday party, where my wife was also at along with our kids. She was so weird and awkward the entire time. She definitely was not nice or friendly to me, but she wasn't mean neither.
I was a super nice guy the whole time to her, except one comment. I know I shouldn't have said it, but I did. I looked over and I asked "not wearing your rings anymore?" She said she took them off to work out and forgot to put them back on. It was 75 degrees outside, and she had a long sleeve shirt on and was intentionally covering up her hand. I quickly changed the subject and started laughing about something one of my friends said. I didn't say anything else about it the whole night.
Just got an email from the wife about her moving out.
"We need to discuss what all I can take, what I need to buy (and how to handle that), etc. Didn't know if you had any thoughts. I had some general ideas. We could maybe talk after the mediator on April 7 if you weren't in a huge rush to get to work. We can also just go through it by email."
I need to figure out the best approach to this. I'm not sure i really care what she takes, other than i don't want to deal with buying new stuff. Do I just let her take whatever she wants? Or, do I use this as an opportunity to talk through things with her and show her that I'm a reasonable person who she can talk to?
While i really don't care what she takes, i'm leaning towards using this as a constructive conversation to show her that she has a voice and that i'm not the bad guy she thinks I am (and throw in some 180)s. Not necessarily to win her back, but to help make our future interactions more bearable.
I'm not sure i really care what she takes, other than i don't want to deal with buying new stuff. Do I just let her take whatever she wants? Or, do I use this as an opportunity to talk through things with her and show her that I'm a reasonable person who she can talk to?
I know this may go against your line of thinking, but I'd be careful on saying she can take whatever, as she may clean you out. You can talk to her about it, but don't expect anything. If it were me, I'd go through the house and make a note of what you want to keep - meaning, what you WANT and are willing to fight for...because it will come down to that. Ask me how I know...
While i really don't care what she takes, i'm leaning towards using this as a constructive conversation to show her that she has a voice and that i'm not the bad guy she thinks I am (and throw in some 180)s. Not necessarily to win her back, but to help make our future interactions more bearable.
If you do it right, it may help. She may come out thinking she got what she wanted or whatever...which may make relations a little better, but I doubt it.
Just got an email from the wife about her moving out.
"We need to discuss what all I can take, what I need to buy (and how to handle that), etc. Didn't know if you had any thoughts. I had some general ideas. We could maybe talk after the mediator on April 7 if you weren't in a huge rush to get to work. We can also just go through it by email."
I need to figure out the best approach to this. I'm not sure i really care what she takes, other than i don't want to deal with buying new stuff. Do I just let her take whatever she wants? Or, do I use this as an opportunity to talk through things with her and show her that I'm a reasonable person who she can talk to?
While i really don't care what she takes, i'm leaning towards using this as a constructive conversation to show her that she has a voice and that i'm not the bad guy she thinks I am (and throw in some 180)s. Not necessarily to win her back, but to help make our future interactions more bearable.
Will this be an emotional conversation with you? If so, I'd do some advance preparation and write down a list from each room, things you definitely want...then if she asks for it, you aren't surprised and/or emotional.
I agree with the above make a list of the thing as you want and the things you don't. And play it that way. Me and the w have had this conversation already and to be honest she was quite good about it all. Whether that changes in the future I don't know.
Mine was, too. Until it came time. Then all the good stuff was "hers." Tried to leave me with bare bones. Never mind that she had an entire apartment full of good furniture...but she still wanted the couch and bed? Heck no.
Wife came over this morning to pick up a kid for school. It was a nice, pleasant, normal morning. Just like before BD#1.
We both put on some good game faces i guess. Especially me, since i had just received a horrible work-related email. Now i have to deal with personal issues, plus work issues. When it rains it pours, right?
Since i haven't posted in a week, i wanted to give an update.
My wife is still a horrible person.
That's really it. Nothing changed, for good or bad. I did spend a few hours at a school PTA fundraiser on Saturday and she was also there. I was cordial. She was cordial. Just like acquaintances.
We have another mediation session on Friday to finalize custody issues and start the financial stuff.
Yep. It is what it is.
We have another mediation session on Friday to finalize custody issues and start the financial stuff.
This is where the fun begins. Look out for haymakers...
Hi - I was just reading your thread. I can see that your situation is more than likely where I am headed in a matter of time. We've already discussed that we will dissolve the marriage through mediation.
Just wanted to say that you have my support.
I have mediation session #2 in 30 minutes. Im definitely not in the right frame of mind for it right now. But, i gotta put on my game face and be that guy only a fool would leave.
I have mediation session #2 in 30 minutes. Im definitely not in the right frame of mind for it right now. But, i gotta put on my game face and be that guy only a fool would leave.
Dude, just be you. No game face. Just you.
I have mediation session #2 in 30 minutes. Im definitely not in the right frame of mind for it right now. But, i gotta put on my game face and be that guy only a fool would leave.
Also, if she isn't fully vested in saving the marriage, then MC is a complete waste of time and a joke.
I have mediation session #2 in 30 minutes. Im definitely not in the right frame of mind for it right now. But, i gotta put on my game face and be that guy only a fool would leave.
Also, if she isn't fully vested in saving the marriage, then MC is a complete waste of time and a joke.
Aw f***. Disregard that statement...
Mediation #2 is over. My DB coach would not be happy with me, and im not particularly happy with me either.
I was too passive aggressive and took too many cheap shots. Mainly comments about if she really cared about time with the kids, she wouldnt be pursuing separation and she would have actually tried to make it work. She was holding back tears due to the guilt i was throwing at her.
I did ask if it made her angry at me, which she said "no, you are right, and i (my wife) deserves it." I also temperature checked at the end. Dumb idea on my part.
But, for the custody part, i believe we only have 2 unresolved issues:
Introducing romantic partners, and sleepovers with them. I took a more aggressive stance against it for the sake of the kids. She wants to introduce people much sooner.
Christmas vacation - we originally agreed that i could get the kid's entire winter break. Now she wants to split it. I said no. I want the kids the whole time.
I know this is a marathon, but im sick of it and im done with her.
My DB coach would not be happy
Interesting text i got today from OM's wife - apparently OM won't adjust his custody schedule to accommodate his wife's work schedule. The reason - my wife won't let him so that they can spend time together. Clearly they are still planning their happily ever after together. My wife has really turned into a horrible human that is absurdly selfish.
Wife and are are birdnesting until she moves out in a few weeks. For the most part, its like we bith are traveling a lot for work but not home at the same time. Our dirty clothes still go into rhe same hamper. Well, i just got done doing laundry and she all sorts of new sexy lingerie.
Having the affair is infuriating enough, and now she is flaunting it in my face. She probably isnt doing it intentionally, but it is really messed up.
Wife is finally moving out in a few days. I can't wait to stop this birdnesting. And i just don't want to have to share any more of my life with her than i really have to. She is a horrible human.
And another thing...
I think i'm going to give up on this whole divorce busting thing. My wife is too far gone and being too horrible of a human for me to want to take her back, even if she she said she wanted to make it work.
I'll keep learning from my mistakes and making changes for me and not her. But, i'm probably not going to hold back in future mediation sessions of pushing for what i want in the long run (more time with kids, bigger share of assets, etc.). Until now, i've been a good person about it and negotiated "fair" compromises. But, since she's the one ending our marriage and continuing her affair, I'm going to push for more than half of everything.
I also really just want to tell her off. She deserves to hear it. But, i'll probably wait until after I have signed custody and asset agreements. I just gotta stay nice until then, while also pushing for whats in my best interest.
Hi Kevin,
Sorry your situation has come to this, but I can certainly understand how you have examined your heart about how you want this to go. And I think you're wise to hold off your comments to her until it's signed on the dotted line. You will have a chance to both tell AND show her at some point. The best revenge anyway is for you to be OK, and move on to the life, relationships, treatment and love you deserve. Don't be a stranger here, though. You've given some great advice to everyone, and a strong encouragement.
KevinIn,
I can relate to your situation. My wife is also still in her affair and divorcing me. It has been a 3 year on/off again affair....(he was my best friend). My wife hasn't been mean but we don't talk since she left. It has been 2 months since I have seen her or heard her voice. The way she left was while I was at work her ap came over and they packed up the house. Didn't hear from her for four days after she left. This all happened quickly. The week she left we were planning house projects, future dreams, made love a few times. I had no idea it was coming. I thought she was truthful. I am working on myself and using the DB principles to better myself but I am not resisting the divorce. It is going to happen.
I ask myself a lot why my heart won't let go of this woman. I would never date a woman that did this to her boyfriend or husband. My wife has become someone that lacks character and integrity. To much lying in our marriage the last 3-4 years. I don't like being alone but I am starting to see it is better to be alone than with my soon to be ex wife.
I would love to tell my wife off.... unfortunately it wouldn't do any good as she is so not using logic in her decisions she would probably use it to justify her actions even more.
I'll keep my mouth shut.
Hi Kevin,
Sorry your situation has come to this, but I can certainly understand how you have examined your heart about how you want this to go. And I think you're wise to hold off your comments to her until it's signed on the dotted line. You will have a chance to both tell AND show her at some point. The best revenge anyway is for you to be OK, and move on to the life, relationships, treatment and love you deserve. Don't be a stranger here, though. You've given some great advice to everyone, and a strong encouragement.
Thank you for your kind words. I wont be a stranger. This site got me through thr darkest time in my life.
KevinIn,
I can relate to your situation. My wife is also still in her affair and divorcing me. It has been a 3 year on/off again affair....(he was my best friend). My wife hasn't been mean but we don't talk since she left. It has been 2 months since I have seen her or heard her voice. The way she left was while I was at work her ap came over and they packed up the house. Didn't hear from her for four days after she left. This all happened quickly. The week she left we were planning house projects, future dreams, made love a few times. I had no idea it was coming. I thought she was truthful. I am working on myself and using the DB principles to better myself but I am not resisting the divorce. It is going to happen.
I ask myself a lot why my heart won't let go of this woman. I would never date a woman that did this to her boyfriend or husband. My wife has become someone that lacks character and integrity. To much lying in our marriage the last 3-4 years. I don't like being alone but I am starting to see it is better to be alone than with my soon to be ex wife.
I would love to tell my wife off.... unfortunately it wouldn't do any good as she is so not using logic in her decisions she would probably use it to justify her actions even more.
I'll keep my mouth shut.
We definitely have similar situations. Although, the OM being your best friend is super painful to hear.
It all happened super fast with me. Just 6 months ago we were happily married (or i thought we were). She never gave us a chance once she told me of her affair. Oh well. Her loss. Someone elses gain. Its my kids that will suffer the most.
The wife begins moving out today. I honestly can't believe it is happening, but im not sad about it. Mayby a little angry at her for it since she never really tried to save our marriage.
But more than anything, im happy that this limbo period of birdnesting is over.
KevinIn,
I was dreading my wife's move out day because I thought I'd be sad and lonely. As it turned out, I was actually able to get stuff done. It was so cool. I was sad that he boys weren't always with me, but life was good without all of the egg shells lying around.
Its going to be hardest on the kids, who we are telling this weekend. Its going to break D6's heart. As i posted yesterday, I'm done trying and caring about saving the marriage. I tried for 5 months. Maybe this is the final thing i need to fully detach.
It all happened super fast with me. Just 6 months ago we were happily married (or i thought we were). She never gave us a chance once she told me of her affair. Oh well. Her loss. Someone elses gain. Its my kids that will suffer the most.
This is almost the exact same situation that I am in. My wife's affair has been going on since late Dec and she never gave me a chance once it started and I discovered it out of the blue. She refuses even discernment counseling. The affair is still active and we're in limbo with her still living with me, just not in the MBR which she finally moved out of.
I'm not forcing this into mediation yet but I'm not holding out any hope of us reconciling either. I kick myself sometimes for not being much more forceful when it first started and telling her to end it or move out but then what good what it have done and do I really want this person anymore?
So I am just waiting and it is mostly for the sake of my kids. Waiting that possibly she'll give up on her AP and perhaps we could try MC.
I kick myself sometimes for not being much more forceful when it first started and telling her to end it or move out but then what good what it have done and do I really want this person anymore?
Same here. After I discovered my wife had been texting the OM all day while we were at Disney World with the boys, I was going to tell (not ask) my wife that I wanted a divorce. After the boys went to sleep, we went outside and talked about it. She told me they were just friends and I was overreacting (it was a much longer conversation than that). I believed her. I was such a dumb@ass.
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I guess what I'm trying to say is the only woman I want back is the one that doesn't want the affair and wants to reconcile with me. I have little hope that I'll ever get that woman back.
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread
You aren't. This is definitely on topic.
I guess what I'm trying to say is the only woman I want back is the one that doesn't want the affair and wants to reconcile with me. I have little hope that I'll ever get that woman back.
That is the only woman i want back as well. It took me a while to realize the woman I loved is completely gone. Now that I know it, i realize she isn't coming back and i don't want to be married to the current version of my kid's mom.
See what i did with my words there?
Until now, i've been a good person about it and negotiated "fair" compromises. But, since she's the one ending our marriage and continuing her affair, I'm going to push for more than half of everything.
No one is going to look after you except for yourself.
That said, why do you think you deserve 'more than half'?
I also really just want to tell her off. She deserves to hear it. But, i'll probably wait until after I have signed custody and asset agreements. I just gotta stay nice until then, while also pushing for whats in my best interest.
What do you have to gain by 'telling her off'?
What are your goals? And how does this get you closer to them?
Regardless of whether or not you want to R, I dont see how doing this is good for anyone.
Kaizen - fair questions. Just a few weeks ago, i would have had very different responses. But, now i'm in a different place that isn't nearly as positive about my future relationship with my wife (married or otherwise).
Until now, i've been a good person about it and negotiated "fair" compromises. But, since she's the one ending our marriage and continuing her affair, I'm going to push for more than half of everything.
No one is going to look after you except for yourself.
That said, why do you think you deserve 'more than half'?
Why not? Doesn't hurt to ask for it. She's getting what she wants - out of the marriage. I might as well get something I want - more than half.I also really just want to tell her off. She deserves to hear it. But, i'll probably wait until after I have signed custody and asset agreements. I just gotta stay nice until then, while also pushing for whats in my best interest.
What do you have to gain by 'telling her off'?
Personal satisfaction.What are your goals?
For my kids and I to have happy lives. And how does this get you closer to them?
It will make me feel better - i've been nice about this situation too long and I need to express my feelings. Regardless of whether or not you want to R, I dont see how doing this is good for anyone.
It probably isn't, but neither was her affair.
now i'm in a different place that isn't nearly as positive about my future relationship with my wife (married or otherwise).
Im not sure what that has to do with DBing or your comments below.
That said, why do you think you deserve 'more than half'?
Why not? Doesn't hurt to ask for it. She's getting what she wants - out of the marriage. I might as well get something I want - more than half.
I suppose not. Why do you think she deserves less than half of the marital assets? To me, it reads like you deserve some kind of monetary reward for the damage to your ego or self esteem. Im certainly not a lawyer, but I cant imagine asking for more than half.
What do you have to gain by 'telling her off'? Personal satisfaction.
Personal satisfaction in saying hurtful things to someone else?
What are your goals? For my kids and I to have happy lives. And how does this get you closer to them? It will make me feel better - i've been nice about this situation too long and I need to express my feelings.
Why do you think you will feel better for more than just a few minutes/hours/days?
This sounds like, again, you just want to inflict some damage as retribution for what you have experienced. Hurt people hurt people. How about instead of telling her off, you use that energy to heal yourself?
Regardless of whether or not you want to R, I dont see how doing this is good for anyone. It probably isn't, but neither was her affair.
So because you feel you were wronged, you deserve to be able to do or say whatever you want?
+1 Kaizen.
Kevin, all you are doing is showing WAW that you are a controlling manipulative bastard. Controlling because clearly the moment you decide you can't get what you want when you want it (her ending the affair and running back to you) you start behaving totally differently, making everything else you did or said after bomb drop an act designed to manipulate her back into the marriage. And now that tactic isn't working you are going to try to hurt her as deeply as you can for hurting you.
If she's telling her friends that you're an abusive monster and she needs to get away from you I'm afraid you're not doing much to challenge that.
Look- what's right is right. Regardless of what your WAW does. Whether or not she acts destructively or hurts you it isn't right to try to hurt her verbally or financially. Those aren't things good people do. You don't get to compare your behavior to hers to make it 'less bad' or justify it because you were only reacting to anger and she 'made you do it'. No. These are your choices, and if you choose to follow through on this I am sorry that's the example you choose to set for your children and that they have to live in the fallout that will be caused by the escalated tension.
Of course it's not too late to let that post just be you blowing off some steam and making some course corrections. Nothing wrong with being done holding out hope. But I've always believed that 'giving up on the marriage' emotionally shouldn't really result in any change in behavior. You still have a responsibility to be a good man.
Zues and Kaizen - i think you both read a little too far into what i was saying. While yes, i am giving up on saving the marriage, i was using this forum as a place to vent so i don't actually say and do those things.
I'm not trying to take everything, nor am I being a jerk to her. I just don't want to be a doormat and let her dictate every single thing just because i'm trying to do a 180 and not be as controlling as she perceived me to be.
And yes, i need to blow off some steam. I've been absurdly cooperative and nice for the 5 months since BD. She's become more angry and mean during these 5 months for some odd reason (probably her coping mechanism to justify her actions). There's only so much being nice that someone can take if the other person continues to be mean. Since we have kids, we are forced to interact and she is just not a good person to me during those interactions even though i'm being a 100% good person and not being mean.
I do appreciate your words, but at the same time i'm not being the total manipulative jerk that it may have come across as. I just can't be a total doormat to her much longer.
Kevin - I understand where you are coming from.
I've been nice too and I'm starting to feel taken advantage of by WAW. She literally blamed me for the snowy weather forecast this weekend as her daughters bday party is supposed to happen at a local park.
No joke... blamed me for the weather!
Zues and Kaizen - i think you both read a little too far into what i was saying. While yes, i am giving up on saving the marriage, i was using this forum as a place to vent so i don't actually say and do those things.
Sometimes it can certainly be difficult to capture tone in the words on the screen here. All we can do is respond to what we see. When I read something like "I also really just want to tell her off. She deserves to hear it. But, i'll probably wait until after I have signed custody and asset agreements.", its difficult to understand whether this is a serious plan or whether you are 'venting'.
Would I love to give my ex a piece of my mind? Of course! It [censored] getting hurt. But lashing out in retaliation doesnt do any good for me. I will lay out my own personal boundaries of what I will and will not accept, but telling that person off for personal satisfaction isnt a lasting feeling or an action that will get me closer to my goals.
I just don't want to be a doormat and let her dictate every single thing just because i'm trying to do a 180 and not be as controlling as she perceived me to be.
Nobody is suggesting that you be a doormat. You said that you wanted to 'tell her off' so that 'you could feel better'. That doesnt sound like standing up for yourself; it sounds like trying to inflict pain or to get even.
I've been absurdly cooperative and nice for the 5 months since BD. She's become more angry and mean during these 5 months for some odd reason. There's only so much being nice that someone can take if the other person continues to be mean. Since we have kids, we are forced to interact and she is just not a good person to me during those interactions even though i'm being a 100% good person and not being mean.
Are you being nice because thats your personality? Or are you being nice with the expectation that she will respond to your 'niceness'? Because THAT isnt nice at all. You say you are a 100% good person....but it will only last for so long, because you arent getting the recognition for it or response to it? To me, being nice doesnt really have anything to do with the other person's response. Nor does being a good person. Being nice doesnt mean you have to be a doormat or agree to everything that is asked of you. It is perfectly acceptable to be nice and still have your own personal boundaries. It isnt mean to disagree. It isnt mean to say "no".
I apologize if Im coming off as harsh or rude. That really isnt my intention. I dont know that you need to change anything that you are doing. My point is to look at your own motivations. What kind of person are you? What kind of person do you want to be?
And then, why would you let your wife's actions define the way you behave?
Kevin - I understand where you are coming from.
I've been nice too and I'm starting to feel taken advantage of by WAW. She literally blamed me for the snowy weather forecast this weekend as her daughters bday party is supposed to happen at a local park.
No joke... blamed me for the weather!
Well, I'd have to agree with her on that. Why the heck are you making it snow this weekend? Thats messed up Thorton. Youbshiuld fix the weather, and while you are at it, please bring peace to the middle east. Haha.
These spouses say the oddest things.
Sometimes it can certainly be difficult to capture tone in the words on the screen here. All we can do is respond to what we see. When I read something like "I also really just want to tell her off. She deserves to hear it. But, i'll probably wait until after I have signed custody and asset agreements.", its difficult to understand whether this is a serious plan or whether you are 'venting'.
The posts were clear. He was not venting. He was clearly stating the intent to take immoral action in terms of hurting his WAW financially and emotionally. And then when confronted he said we were overreacting and blowing off steam.
No. There are lines when blowing off steam. Threatening someone is crossing a line, and then to dismiss it and twist things towards those calling him out as if we overreacted is manipulative. There's plenty of room on DB forums for him to get the support he needs from those that want to follow but I don't have time for these shenanigans.
How about a bit of validation and empathy guys? Kevin's pissed off. Understandably. But in reality he probably nows 'telling off' his W isn't going to help anything, but I think it's harsh to classify a telling off as emotionally hurting his wife.
On the finances, it all depends on rationale. Go for what's fair and what's best for the kids. That may be more than 50%, that may be 50/50, that may be less.
Kevin, it's OK to feel angry, just dont let it rule you, otherwise you're still just dancing to her tune, really.
Kaizen, good, measured response, is go along with what you said.
The posts were clear. He was not venting. He was clearly stating the intent to take immoral action in terms of hurting his WAW financially and emotionally. And then when confronted he said we were overreacting and blowing off steam.
No. There are lines when blowing off steam. Threatening someone is crossing a line, and then to dismiss it and twist things towards those calling him out as if we overreacted is manipulative. There's plenty of room on DB forums for him to get the support he needs from those that want to follow but I don't have time for these shenanigans.
Dont ever comment on my thread again.
Immoral actions? Threateningm There was nothing in my post immoral and no harmful threats. And by more than half, maybe i meant 51%. Maybe she makes a lot more money than me and more than half really is fair so i can survive financially. May I've been the primary parent for years and have the closer relationship with my kids while she travels. You have no clue about my situation - you've never even commented on my threads since i joined a few months ago.
Dont be a jèrk to people on here. I have thick skin, but you are not helpful.
Dont be a jèrk to people on here. I have thick skin, but you are not helpful.
I'm dying...
There are lines when blowing off steam. Threatening someone is crossing a line, and then to dismiss it and twist things towards those calling him out as if we overreacted is manipulative. There's plenty of room on DB forums for him to get the support he needs from those that want to follow but I don't have time for these shenanigans.
Give it a break. He didn't threaten. I told the OM in my case that if he ever stepped foot near my kids that I'd break his legs. Stop with your holier-than-thou crap. KevinIn wasn't out of line, however you were.
Oh, and learn to spell
ZEUS correctly.
How about a bit of validation and empathy guys? Kevin's pissed off. Understandably.
I think that is clear frm the original response to my questions. I dont blame anyone for being angry. It's a natural part of the grieving process and something that every single person on here experiences in one way or another.
One thing I read on here was that the anger can be used as a shield or as a sword. If you use that anger as a sword, you take it and use it build animosity, use it to 'tell people off', use it as a weapon to inflict pain on others. On the other hand, using it as a shield is a way of taking that anger and building yourself up, to drive you to work harder, to be better. Take that anger to be a fuel for improvement.
My post was intended to ask Kevin to look inwards and understand his plan for this anger. To better understand how he will channel that anger and whether those methods are going to get him closer to his goals.
One other thing Id recommend that Kevin examine. One other thing Ive read on here often is that if something 'stings', then you should really look at why. While I certainly didnt word my posts as strongly as Zues did, I think the messages were very similar. I noticed my last post was not addressed and Zues' was met with a lot of resistance (and from my point of view a lot of anger). So my question is why would you get so upset from 2 paragraphs of words from someone on here that is doing their best to try to help you?
So my question is why would you get so upset from 2 paragraphs of words from someone on here that is doing their best to try to help you?
He thinks attacking people personally will get him closer to his goal.
It will probably get him banned or moderated on this forum though.
I'd say the main reason was Zeus was dictating morality by his choice of words. Ring told you are immoral from someone not in full possession of the facts is going to get anyone's back up.
Your response was more measured and hence did not cause the same reaction.
Zeus' initial post was along the same lines as yours. Then he dove back in, taking unearned moral high ground.. That wasn't a DB 2x4, it was passive aggressive virtue signalling, and was therefore called out.
^Truth.
BS will get called out every time.
Guys,
Settle down on the testosterone, OK? If everything I vented on here was taken at face value, I'd probably be seen as a threat to society. But this is supposed to be a safe place to vent. Yes, if you see a brother (or sister) venting and you think it may be over the line, there are ways to gently help him take a step back. But none of us here should be name calling and using judgemental tactics to shame our fellow travelers.
Kevin, you hang in there and keep venting. Normally this IS a safe place for that. Frankly, I was shocked when I read the post calling your venting "immoral". We are here for you.
now i'm in a different place that isn't nearly as positive about my future relationship with my wife (married or otherwise).
Im not sure what that has to do with DBing or your comments below.
That said, why do you think you deserve 'more than half'?
Why not? Doesn't hurt to ask for it. She's getting what she wants - out of the marriage. I might as well get something I want - more than half.
I suppose not. Why do you think she deserves less than half of the marital assets? To me, it reads like you deserve some kind of monetary reward for the damage to your ego or self esteem. Im certainly not a lawyer, but I cant imagine asking for more than half.
What do you have to gain by 'telling her off'? Personal satisfaction.
Personal satisfaction in saying hurtful things to someone else?
What are your goals? For my kids and I to have happy lives. And how does this get you closer to them? It will make me feel better - i've been nice about this situation too long and I need to express my feelings.
Why do you think you will feel better for more than just a few minutes/hours/days?
This sounds like, again, you just want to inflict some damage as retribution for what you have experienced. Hurt people hurt people. How about instead of telling her off, you use that energy to heal yourself?
Regardless of whether or not you want to R, I dont see how doing this is good for anyone. It probably isn't, but neither was her affair.
So because you feel you were wronged, you deserve to be able to do or say whatever you want?
I am a L. When you ask for more than half of assets , you appear unreasonable. You are not the first jilted spouse to feel entitled to more property based on the fault of the other spouse. Judges have seen this 205445794 times...it is a waste of time that can annoy the judge, and make you appear too angry to be seen as objective. That might matter when issues of credibility arise.
I assume it's a no fault state or a no fault divorce, so then her affair is legally irrelevant, which is hard to hear, I know. But that is what no fault means, (it has advantages too, but that's a different topic).
Second, telling her off achieves the opposite of your goal.
She will NOT Slap her forehead and say "OMG he's right! I'm a horrible person and will walk in shame now...forever regretting my horrible choices."
Instead, she'll say "OMG what a jerk I'm leaving and he just proved I'm right to go. See everyone? I told you he had a temper/mean streak and is petty and vindictive"...
even righteous anger cannot be heard by a WAS. Understand this. I tried every word combination to wake my h up, and I think I'd have won if i were in the Supreme Court arguing, but he could/would not hear me. Period.
When I say "be a man only a fool would leave", I sometimes mean, be a man who is strong and calm in the face of betrayal, a man above reproach, who acts with honor and strength,
leaving an image in her head of a man whom she wounded, deeply, but who put his children ahead of his ego and marched forward with his dignity
anyway...someday into the arms of a loving loyal woman who laughs & loves with him.
That^^^ is the most likely way to get her to regret her choices, but most importantly that is the way you are most likely to live a happier life, sooner.
That old adage "the best revenge is a life well lived", is very apt.
even righteous anger cannot be heard by a WAS. Understand this. I tried every word combination to wake my h up, and I think I'd have won if i were in the Supreme Court arguing, but he could/would not hear me. Period.
@25yearsmlc, that is such an insightful post.
I'm really struggling with the righteous anger in my situation with my WW living with me and keeping an active AP. I used to respect her as a woman in touch with spirituality and truth. But now, no. There are certainly situations in life when righteous anger is called for and triumphant, but in confronting a WS, they're immune.
I listen to a podcast the other day that was describing a person that has 'fallen in love' as almost being the same biologically as temporary insanity. When you look at your spouse having an affair from that standpoint his/her irrational behavior does make sense.
I listen to a podcast the other day that was describing a person that has 'fallen in love' as almost being the same biologically as temporary insanity.
When you look at your spouse having an affair from that standpoint his/her irrational behavior does make sense.
YES
And an LBS can have the same type of irrational behavior too. Since most of us fit in that category, it is best if we work on fixing that type of behavior within ourselves. As the only one we can control is ourselves!
However, is it really "temporary insanity" or one of the many terms that is thrown out there to give a reason where we have none - just like fog or mlc. Mere terms to justify. The thing is, they don't love or care for us - if they did, then they damn sure wouldn't sleep with someone else. What most here tend forget is that there are different levels of love - sure they can still love us in some form/fashion, because after all we had a significant relationship with them. And people fall out of love/caring all the time...so why should they be expected to stay? Ever ended a relationship yourself? Same deal.
Now, with that said, sometimes they just don't care enough to want to continue. It happens. And stop with throwing terms/bones/etc at them, because that's exactly what it is.
The real problem here on this board is the LBS. We tend to think and try to explain their stuff through our own eyes and experience, when, in reality, it doesn't fit. We need to work on ourselves and stop trying to do everything in our power to get them to stay. If they decide to come back, then that is a different kettle of fish. Call a spade a spade and let it be done.
25 makes some pretty good points. No amount of anger will snap the S into reality and help them realize their faults.
However, anger is a valid emotion. Let's face it...we are all human here and sometimes we need to vent out our anger and frustration. What better place to do it than to people who actually know and understand what we are going through?
Just don't let the anger control you man. No need to live with that. Like a wise little green guy once said; "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering". -Yoda
Bdog37,
Very well said. Anger can help you to move forward and if you use that anger in a productive way, you may very well be surprised at what you can accomplish in life. Things said and done in anger can't be taken back. That's why we recommend to posters that if you are angry after something has been said or done to you, step back and wait 24-48 hours before responding. You can get far more accomplished and your point across if you react in a very calm manner.
Being angry and staying angry requires a lot of energy. It also affects your health at some point. Find something productive to do when that anger comes out to play.
Today is my 8 year wedding anniversary. My wife moved out about 5 weeks ago and we've been separated about 3 months. Not how I envisioned my 8 year anniversary, but the 7 year itch got the best of her.
I didn't want to completely ignore that today is our anniversary and we've both been trying to be cordial to each other lately, so I sent her this text message (she's flying somewhere for work today, and I'm going to my kid's field trip):
Enjoy our anniversary day. Hope you had a good flight.
She replied with this:
We were delayed so just taking off now. I hope you have a good day too and enjoy the field trip. I know she so excited to have you there
I do feel pretty darn detached lately which feels good.
Kevin, hope the field trip with your kid was awesome! The symbolic dates suck but that's good that you two are able to be cordial with each other. I think co-parenting from separate homes will be tough enough. Having a bunch of acrimony to go with hat would make it damn near impossible. Hang in there brother.
I friend who still talks to my wife told me last night that my wife is apparently "devasted" about a bad breakup she had with the other guy and she spends a lot of time crying. My wife hasn't said anything to me about it and we still don't talk about anything other than kid-related logistics.
While I feel marginally satisfied that she's feeling pain from that fantasy relationship not working out, I'm mostly ambivalent about it - I really don't care. I'm taking this as a sign that I'm even more fully detached.
Meanwhile, I've been surprisingly happy lately. I'm really not thinking about her at all. Hardly any anger, almost no sadness. I'm finally able to focus again at work.
Kevin,
You sound great. Glad you are off your W's roller coaster and contentedly living your life. Great way to handle your anniversary. Still not sure how to handle those things myself.
All the best,
Gordie
While I feel marginally satisfied that she's feeling pain from that fantasy relationship not working out, I'm mostly ambivalent about it - I really don't care. I'm taking this as a sign that I'm even more fully detached.
You seem to have detached completely 'cause I'd be jumping up and down and opening a bottle of champagne (don' t we all want to see the relationship between X and AP fizzle out?). So well done on the work you have done on yourself, to get to where you are now.
Anyway, its nice to see that some of these affairs actually do end.
Journaling / venting:
While i've done an okay job at detaching, im sure i will always have certain things that trigger me from this experience. I've been slightly disturbed the past few days after my older daughter told me that "mom took us to the baseball game with her friend Kate, and her neighbor Al. Al also brought his 12 year old nephew." I know Kate. I don't know Al.
Now, the part that is bugging me. This guy Al. He's a new character in wife's life, which is understandable because he lives by my wife's new place. Hanging out together around the condo complex is one thing, but going to a baseball game together and bringing my kids is another thing. While we don't have signed custody agreement yet banning introducing our kids to new romantic partners, and i'm not even sure they are romantic, it does bug me that there's some random dude being exposed to my kids. And, speaking from a guy's point-of-view, if he's not already a romantic partner, I can bet he's trying to become one.
Its no longer any of my business what my high moral wife does with her life, so why does it bug me that she may have moved on to OP #2 now that she was dumped by OP #1? I can also just chalk it up that she is going through a weird time in her life that is bringing out her inner desire to be more sexual (which i would have enjoyed while we were together).
That's my rant. I'm not going to say anything to her about until after we finalize the custody agreement. I'll get over it. i'm working on getting some stuff in my custody agreement that makes me okay with things like this.
Journaling - Another mediation session today...
Background:
-Separated in mid-February
-Had a few mediation sessions, but it was tough emotionally
-Asked wife for a break from mediation in May so i could regain my composure
-Got to a better place over the past few months (or so I thought)
-Scheduled a mediation session for today
-Prepared for today by keeping in mind what really means the most to me: my kids
So, we had our mediation today. I scheduled it for the perfect time when i knew i'd be in a good mood, happy, not angry (relatively speaking), and all around in the best mental place for mediation.
I started with a few no conflict, easy to agree upon items. We agreed and were able to come to agreement on quite a few items. But, I could tell the wife was not in a good place mentally. Her hands were shaky and she was irritable.
Finally, out of no where in the middle of a discussion about custody, she brings up money. Something had been bothering her, but she never brought it up previously. Then, she started talking about it and getting very irritated and worked up. I remained calm and collected and listened to her.
We eventually moved through a few other minor custody details when she threw out a HUGE request that i didn't agree with. Instead of saying no or laughing or any other response, I calmly asked some clarifying questions, took notes, and said i'd be more than happy to think about her proposal. It was a solid 180 from her memory of the "old me". I truly wanted to be flexible and collaborative.
A few minutes later she was visibly mad. I asked why she was acting angry and I said i'd like for us to move forward in a more collected fashion. I then said that "i'm not getting worked up and i'm making an effort to stay calm and focused." She then said i was being condescending and she hated that about me. I truly wasn't being condescending, but that's what she thought so it didn't matter.
I had a few big requests of my own, so I laid them out in what i thought was a fair presentation and kept calm throughout. I had flexibility in the options and asked for her input. There was no "it has to be my way" about it." My requests were simply items for discussion. I asked for her proposals on how to make them happen.
She said in a very angry tone "no. i will not consider these." She had zero flexibility.
The conversation continued to go downhill. I kept myself together for the most part, but did slip up at one point and said something a little sketchy. It took both the wife and the mediator off guard. I recovered from it and calmed them both down, which luckily allowed us all to reset.
We eventually walked away with both me and my wife emailing each other options on how to incorporate each other's wish lists into the custody agreement.
Oh, and she was mad that i had commented on some Facebook post about cheaters breaking up marriages. Apparently i shouldn't have done that. In reality, i should have just stayed off Facebook. I'm now deleting my entire facebook account - nothing good comes from it.
Overall, i'm happy i went into today with the right mental perspective. My DB Coach, Chuck, always emphasizes the need to be in the best mood possible. It was still very painful since i didn't want the separation and was willing to work on fixing our marriage.
On my ride home, i realized she still has no remorse about her affair, has not taken any responsibility for anything (including the affair), has a victim mentality, and isn't learning anything from this. She's combative and not in a good place.
I'd like to think i've learned from this and become a better person. But, maybe i have zero self awareness and i'm really the horrible person. Maybe she was right to have the affair and leave the marriage. I hope that's not the case and it [censored] i'm second guessing my own self perception.
***********
gaslight
[gas-lahyt]
verb (used with object), gaslighted or gaslit, gaslighting.
4. to cause (a person) to doubt his or her sanity
***********
Journaling:
Haven't posted here in a while, but had something interesting to share with this community. Over the past few months, things haven't really changed between me and my wife. She has a lot of anger towards me, which i still can't fully understand (she cheated on me - i should be the angry one, right?). I may not be perfect, but I haven't done all that much over the past 9 months to make her all that mad, especially considering everything she's done to me that I could have acted much worse about.
So, things are kinda a new normal. Definitely not the normal I wanted at this point in life. But, nonetheless, its at least consistent. And fortunately, both kids (ages 3 and 6) seem to be doing okay and not having any noticeable issues.
Here's where my post gets interesting. My 6 year old recently said that she wanted to talk to her school counselor about "my parent's divorce." I asked if she wanted to talk to me and she said that she really just wanted to talk to the counselor. I said okay and had the teacher arrange it. So, today they talked and the counselor called me after to tell me what they talked about. Nothing surprising really. I ended up calling my wife to tell her about my conversation with the counselor. At one point I said something like "its hard for kids to understand that their parents will never get back together". My wife said "yeah" in what i thought was a slightly sad tone.
Now, i know a principal of divorce busting is to not temperature check or pursue, but i've been separated for 8 months and barely talk to my wife anymore and have no hope or expectations that we will ever get back together (nor do i know if i even want that). But, i was curious if she finally felt like trying to fix our relationship (if you read through all my posts, you'll see that she repeatedly said that she never tried to fix things and didn't even want to try to fix things - this is very hard to hear).
So, I said "Unless you want to try to fix things. Do you?" She replied in what i interpreted as a mean tone "Kevin, NO!". I said okay. It was pretty clear that she still has zero desire to ever work on our relationship. I still find it hard to believe that this woman that I truly loved for so long and that I have two kids with checked out of our relationship a year ago and seems to have zero regrets or remorse about it. Its almost a badge of honor that she won't even accept the idea of working on our relationship.
After we hung up, i texted her that it came across as mean, that i've given up hope but at least wanted to ask if she would work to save a marriage, and that i was sorry that she was so unhappy in our marriage that after 8 months of separation that she still has that response and that i can't imagine the pain she was in while we were married. She texted back that she didn't intend on being mean, and that it wasn't about me, "it was more about feeling bad saying it." I'm not really sure what this means.
So, that's my update. Nothing really exciting. In summary, after not talking about our relationship for many months, I asked if she wanted to try working on things during a conversation about our kid wanting us to not be divorced. She said no to working on things. Her loss.
I will say i've moved on to a descent place mentally. I don't really get sad anymore. But, i still find it perplexing that she was so unhappy in our marriage that she has refused to work on our relationship since the day she said she was unhappy and having an affair. She really was "checked out" when she finally told me. While divorce busting may have helped me get through the tough times, I don't think there was anything i could have done to save our marriage. At least I can have peace of mind that I actively tried to save our marriage and that it really was her decision to walk away.
Kevin,
Good to hear your update. The lack of remorse still hurts, at least it does me.
I’m surprised you asked the question, but I understand. I mean, what do you have to lose at this point? But her response hurting you, that’s what you to lose, the emotional hit.
And no, of course you aren’t the horrible person she has claimed. She needs to say that to justify her own decisions.
Yes, she made the decision to walk away. Perplexing? Yes. I think we are trying hard to understand things we may never. And all we can do now is let go and focus on our own healing and being great dads to the children who did not deserve this.
Peace!