So Confused and Conflicted (5)

[WshIKnw]

Previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734311&page=1

[WshIKnw]

Someone from my wife's circle finally contacted me -- her father. He asked me how I was doing, by email. I broke down big time when I saw that, because I've been wondering whether everyone in her circle hates me or thinks I'm the biggest idiot in the world, because no one in her circle has contacted me before now, and people have hardly responded to me.

He wrote:

Hi, WshIKnw,

I've been wondering how you are doing. You have been in our prayers. If there is anything I can help with, please give me a call on [step MIL]'s cell phone, ###-###-####, in the evening.

Love,
FIL

What should I say back to him? (whether I email him or call him) An important note about W's father is that he is ultra-religious (Christian).

Here is an email that I drafted (haven't sent it yet) to him as a response:

Hey, FIL.

Thank you so much for contacting me and showing concern. I am absolutely devastated by what has happened. I know what I did wrong in the marriage, and I have wanted nothing more than to make it up to W, but she has refused every peace offering that I have extended. I spent the entire month of December and a good portion of January trying everything I could think of to change her mind. Most of the things I did seemed to only push her away more, especially when we would argue. She seems to feed off of anger in her pursuit of this breakup. Because of this, I stopped trying to plead with her and convince her.

You are the first person in her circle of people to reach out to me. I have wondered whether everyone in her circle hates me or thinks I'm the biggest idiot in the world. Please do not share with W the things that I have said. I'm afraid that if she knows how I feel, she won't care, and she will only view it as weakness, and find it unattractive, and turn away from me more. I am concerned about W's well-being. I don't know how she appears to other people, but she seems to be absolutely full of bitterness and hatred towards me. It's a level of anger and bitterness that I have never seen before, from anyone, much less, her. I am concerned that she is making very foolish decisions, harming herself and her life. She seems to be an emotional wreck, to me.

[Bdog37]

And I believe she mostly dated him at work. That's one of the problems with work; because people spend so much time at work, it's very easy for them to see other people there more than they see their own spouses.

That maybe true, but have you ever dated someone you worked with? That brings a whole new set of problems for a relationship. I have done it twice and should have learned my lesson the first time.

Her relationship with the OM, regardless of it being an E or P one, will soon come back down to reality. She will eventually start to see his faults and shortcomings as well. Just like so many WW's they are living in a fantasy world right now. They don't realize that every relationship has it's "honeymoon" stage and that the euphoric feeling eventually dies out. She may realize then that what she had with you wasn't so bad and try reconciling. Who knows, by then, you may not even want her back.

[LITB]

Wsh,

I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment. What I would say to your response, is be very cautious what you share with your FIL. It is his daughter after all. You'd be fooling yourself if you think that he won't share what you email him.

I'll be back later to read your response and make suggestions. I'm sure others will jump in here.

[WshIKnw]

It's also important to note that my wife and her father are not very close. They speak only a few times a year.

[LITB]

It's also important to note that my wife and her father are not very close. They speak only a few times a year.

I'm guessing that it is important to note, because you feel it will not get back to your W? It really isn't gonna make or break your sitch and you might have already sent your response.

What is your goal with your response?

[MoveFrwd]

"FIL -
Thank you for your concern. I'll let you know if I need anything.

I hope all is well with you and MIL.
- Wsh"

I would not send all that stuff you're writing up there. Blood is thicker than water and "recruiting" won't serve you well.

[WshIKnw]

Yeah. My family said my email made me sound weak and like I was criticizing his daughter some. They said to send something more like what Kaizen said to send. I just wish I could reach out to them more. I want so badly to know what people in her circle think of me and of what happened, and whether they know that man with a wife and four kids visits her at night.

[Dawgs]

What should I say back to him? (whether I email him or call him) An important note about W's father is that he is ultra-religious

Nope and nope and nope.

Two things: Do you think that by contacting him and drafting such a nice email will win her back? Not only no, but hell no. It will look as meddling and going behind her back in her eyes. They don't like it when that happens. I know because I did the same thing and the response was more negative than you ever could imagine. I feel you are set on doing it anyway no matter what will be said on here - so, before you send it, what would be gained from it? Not what you are secretly hoping.

You are the first person in her circle of people to reach out to me. I have wondered whether everyone in her circle hates me or thinks I'm the biggest idiot in the world. Please do not share with W the things that I have said.

Blood is thicker than water. Remember that. That second sentence needs to be removed, period. That not only makes you look weak in his eyes, but begging/fishing for information.

Don't send the email. But I bet you will.

[MoveFrwd]

I want so badly to know what people in her circle think of me and of what happened

Why?

whether they know that man with a wife and four kids visits her at night.

Again, why?

These make it sound like you want them on your 'side'. To see you are the 'good guy'. That you want them to maybe talk some sense into her or something? Im not sure.

I really urge you to think about your goals in sending the email you proposed. And to think about why you want to know these things so badly.

[Dawgs]

These make it sound like you want them on your 'side'. To see you are the 'good guy'. That you want them to maybe talk some sense into her or something? Im not sure.

That's exactly how it reads. Backfire big time.

[WshIKnw]

It just hurts so much not knowing. What does it usually mean when people don't have anything to do with you? It means they are rejecting you. They don't like you. I know that's not what it necessarily means in this case, but it _feels_ like they don't like me and don't give a s--t about me. And that really hurts. It hurts not knowing. And yes, I want to recruit help in waking her up. I want her to suffer for what she is doing. I want people to know what she is doing and make her hurt. And wake her up. She's not just hurting me. She's contributing to that family losing their father/husband.

[MoveFrwd]

It just hurts so much not knowing.

He sent you an email checking on you. Thats more than I would ever expect out of my ex's parents. Id say thats a good enough clue for now.

What does it usually mean when people don't have anything to do with you? It means they are rejecting you. They don't like you.

This is mindreading. And I call BS. Theres plenty of reasons. As you say just below...

I know that's not what it necessarily means in this case, but it _feels_ like they don't like me and don't give a s--t about me. And that really hurts. It hurts not knowing.

So, you see, your mind reading is actually hurting you. How can you better just accept that they are in a no-win situation? They are either going to alienate you or their daughter right now. How can you possibly expect they are going to choose you?

And yes, I want to recruit help in waking her up. I want her to suffer for what she is doing. I want people to know what she is doing and make her hurt. And wake her up. She's not just hurting me. She's contributing to that family losing their father/husband.

She could use help. Thats for sure. But it cant be YOU behind it. All that does is put you and her in opposition.

I urge you to look again at your writing that I bolded. If you are feeling that way, how does that make you a 'good guy'? How is that representing someone she would want to come back to?

[WshIKnw]

Sometimes it's so hard to be the good guy. Because she is hurting me so much.

[MoveFrwd]

Sometimes it's so hard to be the good guy. Because she is hurting me so much.

Yes. It's hard as hell. Thats why we keep pushing you to GAL. Because it gets a lot easier when you arent hurting as much. When you are more detached, you dont feel the pain from her actions nearly as sharply.

[Dawgs]

Sometimes it's so hard to be the good guy. Because she is hurting me so much.

Its very, very hard...I agree.

I could unload holy hell on her but I don't. Why? I don't know.

[WshIKnw]

It's hard to detach as long as I am feeling so slighted. She wants me to pay her a big chunk of money for the house. She doesn't want to pay me a cent on the previous house we lived in that she owns, and I helped her pay for, for 7 years. She wants probably more than the amount of principal she has put in our current house. Which is BS, because:

1. She didn't put that much into the house. I put way more into the house than she did (10's of thousands).
2. She doesn't want to give me anything for the old house, that we have been renting out for 5 years, but I have been helping her pay for for 7, and for the last 4.5 years, I paid 60% on what we had to pay, on all bills (since rent doesn't cover all that we were paying on the house, especially since she paid up by $100 or so each month), including paying for the HOA, which we didn't charge the tenant.
3. The way she ended it with me. She cultivated a friendship with a guy at work, after I have told her a thousand times that that is how romantic feelings can come about. She had an affair, the extent to which I don't entirely know. She has lied left and right about it. She dumped me out of the blue for this guy, two weeks after a fine anniversary and anniversary trip, and her telling me she's so glad she has me. Went ultra cold and hateful towards me, and tried to blame me for everything. Wouldn't hardly take any of the blame. Wouldn't go to MC. Wouldn't give me another chance after waking me up. Wouldn't do anything to wake me up before it was too late. Wouldn't give any ultimatums. Acted happy, when she was dissatisfied. Leaves me less than a month after bomb drop. Said I would be able to date her. Has refused like 90% of the things I have tried to do with her. Said she wouldn't throw in the towel until her Granny died. Granny is still living as far as I am aware. She and her mother tell me I can visit her Granny, which was my Granny as well, for ten years. But every time I have tried to schedule a time, they can't. If I ask how Granny is doing, I get a vague response, and they run away from me. I told MIL that I'm just going to wait for her to give me a good time, and if I don't hear from her, I'll just assume there isn't a good time. Haven't heard from her. It's been at least a month, I'd say. ... W rushed to get all of her things, within about a month of leaving. Wife then rushed to get separation papers done. She has lied about wanting to date other people, yet a--hole is at her house in the evenings and leaves around her bedtime. She has been very secretive since she went cold. Didn't want me to know where she was living. She has treated me like I don't exist since around the time she left. She will at least respond to me sometimes, especially if I say something important, but never hardly contacts me.
4. OM has a wife and 4 kids. The two of them are breaking up each other's marriages, and she is breaking up a family. He is breaking up what was about to become a family.

She does me like this, and now I have to pay her all of this money (10's of thousands)? She abandons me for another man, after cheating on me with an EA at the very least, treats me like I'm Satan all of a sudden, because she just supposedly has an epiphany that I was a terrible husband. "I thought it was me the whole time, but then realized it was you. You were the one causing our problems." And now I have to pay all of this money? I have to keep this house full of all of the memories, while she goes off on her new life in her new house to date her new man. I'm stuck with my guts ripped out on the floor, trying to pick up the pieces, surrounded by memories of what we had. And she wants me to pay all this money to her? She isn't asking anywhere near half of everything, but to me that is very unfair and is a stupid, idiotic law, anyway. If I put in X, I should get back X, if X still exists (not used up assets), especially if I'm the one trying to keep the f---ing marriage going. And she's the one cheating on me and abandoning me.

I'm scared that she will try to get a lot more money, but I'm thinking of doing the following. She really wants this separation I'm sure, so that she can feel free to go on with her life with Mr. Wonderful. So, she might take a lesser amount of money to push this separation through. I am thinking of contacting her to first make sure she understands that I believe we can rewind to a happy time in our marriage, despite whatever could have happened since then. Then, if she continues to voice that she has no interest in that, which is what I expect will happen, I will offer to sign the papers if she goes down to half of what she is asking. She might take it, just to be free from me. They still have to worry about his wife, and worry a lot, unless they have already gotten some nice deal with her, which I doubt it, considering she has 4 kids, and likely is dependent on his income, since she has a degree in archaeology and occupation is just "self employed".

My questions/statements to my wife will be:
1. Are you happy? Are you happy with the way your life is going?
2. Do you ever wish you could rewind to a time when things were good between us?
3. Remember when you said I would never be able to forgive you? (And she followed it with "And I will never be able to forgive you.") What all would I need to forgive you for?
4. I think we can rewind past everything that has happened, and that includes any infidelity.
5. If she continues to say she wants out, we can't get over what has happened, etc., then I will offer to sign the papers if she drops what she is asking by half. That way she can have her freedom from me. She wants her freedom now. How much does she want it?

What do you guys think? The point, again, is to first make sure she understands that I would be willing to try to get past everything that has happened, including cheating, and that I believe we can get past it. Then, if she doesn't care, I will make my offer to her, so that both of us can have closure, and I can start trying to detach. I have to be careful to not say that I forgive her, even though I do forgive her, even though I'm mad sometimes, to avoid legal problems with that.

[doodler]

What do you guys think? The point, again, is to first make sure she understands that I would be willing to try to get past everything that has happened, including cheating, and that I believe we can get past it. Then, if she doesn't care, I will make my offer to her, so that both of us can have closure, and I can start trying to detach. I have to be careful to not say that I forgive her, even though I do forgive her, even though I'm mad sometimes, to avoid legal problems with that.

WshIKnw,

Your wife doesn't care about closure or anything else for that matter. She wants to get as much as she can and move on. The best thing you can do for yourself and your marriage is get a good lawyer (to protect your assets) and get out and GAL (to protect yourself).

[Dawgs]

It's hard to detach as long as I am feeling so slighted

That's anger speaking.

She wants me to pay her a big chunk of money for the house. She doesn't want to pay me a cent on the previous house we lived in that she owns, and I helped her pay for, for 7 years

Get a lawyer stat. This is all business now. Both houses are marital assets and will be divided as such. Even if the other house was in her name before the marriage, marital money paid into it during the time of the marriage means that you are entitled. Ask a lawyer.

Number 1 - 4 are irrelevant. No need to even think about them at all. Remember, this is all a business. Get your ducks in a row because she will...and she will hammer you if you aren't careful.

am thinking of contacting her to first make sure she understands that I believe we can rewind to a happy time in our marriage, despite whatever could have happened since then.

Why? It won't serve your purpose.

My questions/statements to my wife will be

Once again, why? What is your end goal for this? To make her see the light and return to action? Because that's how it reads to me.

1 - If you ask her if she is happy, then you better be prepared for the answer...and she may very well say yes.
2 - Wishing to rewind? Why ask that? The past cant be returned to. Don't even go there. Know what she would say? NO.
3 - Dude, I don't even know what to think about #3.
4 - You can't magically erase the past just as she can't. What you are desperately grasping at is the memory of what she was, not the person she is. She is not that person anymore and never will be. Once again, nothing will be gained by asking this.
5 - If she continues to say she wants out, we can't get over what has happened, etc., then I will offer to sign the papers if she drops what she is asking by half. That way she can have her freedom from me. She wants her freedom now. How much does she want it? Doesn't work that way, my friend.

See, she doesn't think like you...so what you think makes sense, doesn't to her. Be prepared for things you do not want to hear.

I have to be careful to not say that I forgive her, even though I do forgive her, even though I'm mad sometimes, to avoid legal problems with that.

Sorry, but this makes no sense. First, holding stuff in is counterproductive. And then there is the whole forgiveness thing...you are mad, and anger doesn't correlate with forgiveness. Now, the real question that you need to sit down and answer is: why? Why are you fighting so hard to keep someone around that doesn't want to be there?

[WshIKnw]

Your wife doesn't care about closure or anything else for that matter. She wants to get as much as she can and move on. The best thing you can do for yourself and your marriage is get a good lawyer (to protect your assets) and get out and GAL (to protect yourself).

But moving on is closure, right? That's what I mean by "closure". Being able to detach and forget about her. If she changes her mind, by then, I may or may not be able to reattach. She initially at least didn't want as much as she could get, or she would have asked for half of everything, which is way more, unless she is hiding assets I don't know about. I hope that has not changed. I'm really curious, though, about something you said. The best thing I can do for my marriage is to get a good lawyer? You think me having a good lawyer helps with reconciliation?

[WshIKnw]

Now, the real question that you need to sit down and answer is: why? Why are you fighting so hard to keep someone around that doesn't want to be there?

I'm not. That's the whole point of doing this is to come to a closure so that I can detach. I don't want to pay her what she wants. I don't want her to ask for more, either. On top of this, I just want to make sure that she understands that I believe I can forgive her and we can get past it, without using words like "forgiveness" to avoid forfeiting things legally if she tries to take advantage of my forgiveness, legally. That's why I talk of being able to rewind, instead.

[LITB]

You are misunderstanding what detachment is. Go back to the link provided by Cadet to refresh yourself.

Is it fair to say that you have trouble listening and you are stubborn? That's what I gather in staying current on your sitch.

Get with a lawyer and find out what your rights are. It will be money well spent given your current circumstances. It will help alleviate some of your fears.

When my W started threatening me for more alimony and CS, I contacted my L as soon as our convo was over. When I knew exactly what I was obligated to pay, her threats were empty and it allowed me to operate from a place of knowledge. It helped me stay calm.

[WshIKnw]

I don't understand the backlash. Mentioning to her that I think we can rewind is just a last ditch effort to make sure she knows that I am willing to work on getting past all of it, including infidelity, that I do know about, before signing the papers and making separation complete. After that, it's all about detaching and forgetting about her. The money thing is in the way of that right now. How am I being stubborn and not listening, LITB? By the way, that right there is probably why my wife left me for someone else, but I don't understand how I am doing it right now.

[doodler]

I'm really curious, though, about something you said. The best thing I can do for my marriage is to get a good lawyer? You think me having a good lawyer helps with reconciliation?

WshIKnw,

I did put in parenthesis that the lawyer was to help protect your assets. I don't think the lawyer would help your marriage per se, but if you retain a lawyer it'll probably make your wife sit up and take notice. Right now she probably feels like she has you wrapped around her finger (she does). By taking definitive action (action, not words) to move on with your life, you're showing her that you don't need her in order to continue living your life to the fullest.

Which guy do you think she'll want; the one that wants closure or the one that's moving forward?

[WshIKnw]

Which guy do you think she'll want; the one that wants closure or the one that's moving forward?

What's the difference? I see those two as the same.

[doodler]

What's the difference? I see those two as the same.

The guy that wants closure is dependent on her. The guy that's moving on is not dependent on her.

[Dawgs]

No one's attacking you. The thing is, you are taking what we have to say not as advice but as attacking, which it isn't. From your reactions, you are positively responding only to posts that make you think there is a chance with your wife, which, unfortunately, there isn't - not at this time or in the near future.

You won't get closure. Ever. You'll come to accept it one day. But closure? That doesn't happen, at least not in the way you want it to.

There is no need to ask her any of those questions. None at all.

And, when she comes out swinging you have indicated she will, if you don't have a lawyer, then you'll a lot more than you think. This isn't about marriage anymore. That's done. This is business and it needs to be thought of that way.

Doing little things like talking to her family, asking questions, etc., will do nothing more than push her that much away. Period. Nothing you can say or do will change that.

[MoveFrwd]

I don't understand the backlash.

I think that some of the posters might be frustrated, because weve been through what you are going through, we know the results in doing the things that you want to do, and yet, we cant seem to arm you with the knowledge that you need.

No, dont send that letter. No, dont have that conversation.

I think you should reread the detachment thread (or read it if you havent). Before worrying about closure and moving on and all this other stuff, you need to take back control of your own emotions. Right now, you are still getting bounced all over the place by your W. You point out several times how much you are hurting. Before worrying about your relationship with W, you have to stop the bleeding.

Detachment is what I believe is that state that you can achieve where that spout is turned off. You get to a place where you are emotionally stable. Where highs and lows of your interactions with W dont impact you. Thats done through GAL. By embracing new opportunities to fill your emotional bucket with positivity NOT FROM YOUR W.

All the stuff you are putting in that post above is you trying to get her to fill that bucket. And I guess your thought is that you want to give her one last opportunity to do so, before you are willing to accept those positive feelings from other people. My advice is, instead to first focus on filling your bucket through your GAL activities, and THEN youll be in a much better place where you dont NEED your W to fill your bucket.

Hopefully, that makes sense.

[LITB]

How am I being stubborn and not listening, LITB?

We have continuously offered you advice: GAL, improve yourself, detach, have no expectations, do not send that response......

Rinse, repeat. Changes are for my W....

There is always some justification for your actions. Example: "It's also important to note that my wife and her father are not very close."

We may not know everything that works, but we know what doesn't work. DB'ing is counter-intuitive. It takes time and a lot of effort.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for asking, Sandi. I'm mostly in a holding pattern right now. Still trying to better myself. Still getting over my wife and working on detaching.

So, what are you doing that is different from before? I hear a lot of sitting, watching and worrying and a theme of you being in fear.

Even when you know it's something she disliked and felt burdened by and that you want to change

you remain paralyzed.

You have talked yourself out of going to the church she attended with you, even though you told her you were "thinking about it". You talked of getting a motorcycle or flying a plane, to "Overcome" your fears. Those are pretty easy to talk yourself out of, which you did talk yourself out of,

but it's as if there is nothing in between.

If you know you have a problem isolating yourself, and it is a problem according to you and your wife, then do you see how you must DO something different?

not wait till you feel like it, but do it and then maybe you'll feel differently,

It's an outside inside approach. See Sean Achor or Amy Cuddy's TED talks on youtube, about the power of positive thinking and behaving and acting differently.

A "fake it till you make it" approach that has empirical data that shows we CAN

behave differently - and then feel differently

rather than waiting around for the opposite. They are powerful




Watching her, seeing what she's doing. Being lovingly distant.

um, yeah, it's the same behavior. If you want to change b/c it'll make YOUR LIFE HAPPIER, (and coincidentally it'll make you more attractive),

you must DO something new and different to become something new and different. And yes it will be very uncomfortable. But isn't just hoping things turn around, more so?

If it were me, I'd try a new uncomfortable path with the hopes of my own growth, over painful but familiar patterns, any day.

Trying to slowly work my way back into her life.


What are you doing to become the best man you can become?

To become a man only a fool would leave? Those are the truest goals of DBing.

You have repeatedly identified things in you that you want to change.

I've read 90% of your posts and can't think of a single thing you are doing that shows change and or isn't about your w. Stop finding reasons not to change, and start finding reasons not to repeat the same old.

Did you cut your hair? It's a visible change and it's so low risk. But but but... it's new...so, have you?

Have you decided to wait till you have more energy and appetite to gain weight or get physically stronger, or have you chosen to eat better and make yourself exercise?

BTW, I don't "like" exercise, I like how it makes me feel and look. So I do something I don't necessarily enjoy, b/c of the results.

And the results are about how I see them, not for others. Do you get what I mean?


I suspect that things with OM will fizzle out over the next few months, and I want to be there to slowly and carefully woo her back, when it does. Or who knows? Maybe I won't care at some point before then, and she'll be begging me to take her back.

SiGH...this^^ is you only and exclusively contemplating (but not implementing) any changes in YOU for YOU. Heck you are not changing for her either, come to think of it. It screams of passivity and that screams of relational laziness. You don't do anything without a guarantee of a payoff. That is some serious "Stuck ness".


You spend so much time analyzing how to get her back - but do nothing to make it happen and you definitely are not working on yourself for you.

SIDENOTE

I noted that in your early posts you mentioned how things in the m were all fine b/c she "acted happy" but in reality she did tell you a number of times, that she needed more from you.

See, it makes me wonder if you are saying that unless she used the word "divorce" and you believed you could lose her, then her wants for more , were not that important to you. Here are some of your comments at the start & I will highlight the parts that struck me:

she complained about me looking at porn, which I did do some of, but in the past she always would just say "well, I know that all guys do it..."

to me, that ^^ is her talking herself out of making it an issue - b/c you didn't want to stop. You didn't tell us what you said to her, or your reasons for the porn.

So she had to defend you in her mind b/c obviously it hurt her. It can undermine the feelings of being desired by a h, if he looks at porn often. I know men may feel differently but I'm talking as a woman.

The way I read this^^ was that you decided if it hurt her but didn't make her leave you, it would continue- b/c her happiness was not your goal. Keeping her from leaving & having her around, was enough for you.




and that would be that); lack of life skills, like cooking; unreliability/lateness;

she wants you to pull your weight in the home and to work on your social skills? What did you do about these issues? What did you tell her you would do?

she said I was scared of everything (I have issues with anxiety and depression);

so, this^^ is another big red flag to me. Are these issues being addressed? They are not small things


complained that I was sort of mean about her appearance in that I didn't show enough sexual interest in her (I showed a lot, but I can see why she would think it's lacking);

red flags ^^ You "can see why she would think-sexual interest- was lacking".. Other than the porn, you also said things that hurt her feelings about her appearance. Porn and unflattering comments are a deadly combination to a woman's ego. These are significant.

said I was weak physically and mentally and whiny;

We want to feel protected and loved by our spouses. In one survey wives stated that "security" is the number one priority they have for their m's.

We want to feel financially and physically secure. That means we need a h who is strong, physically and mentally. This is especially true if we want to bear their children.

You can say she's just rationalizing things now, but my gut says she mentioned these in some form, earlier.

To me these things to work on are kind of great news b/c the changes she wants in you could be so easily seen. And you want to make them, for you, correct?

Gain weight, get strong, join/volunteer study something or coach a person or a team or visit and travel to a new place. Just do it. Stop stopping yourself from GAL.

You cannot detach without GAL and you cannot make changes in yourself while you keep looking over your shoulder to check on what she is doing or seeing.

she complained that I was spoiled and that it was her fault that she let me be so weak and whiny; she said I was "nickel and diming" her, which I think is kind of a made up complaint mostly (she seemed to only be referring to us agreeing that she do more chores in exchange for me paying a larger share of the bills (we agreed to that, I thought);


Speechless...

complained that I didn't want her to do things that might form a wedge between us; I made easy things hard; she said I didn't want her to think much of herself, which in my opinion is another made up reason to be mad at me (I simply didn't like when she vocally complimented herself or responded to one of my compliments with, "mmmhmmm", like she saying "I know". It hurt my feelings.);


Why would her affirming herself, hurt your feelings? DIG DEEPER.

[25yearsmlc]

I posted a long note to you on your last thread. I don't know how to link it here.

I hope you'll check it out.

Good luck

[25yearsmlc]

Now, the real question that you need to sit down and answer is: why? Why are you fighting so hard to keep someone around that doesn't want to be there?

I'm not. That's the whole point of doing this is to come to a closure so that I can detach.

Detachment is not about closure, or at least not directly. You are confusing the "moving on with no chance of a recon ever!", with detachment and closure. They are not the same.

Detachment lets you still love the WAS and have good memories, but not attach yourself or your happiness to the results.

Also, there are married couples who div and later remarry. I have 2 in my family and think it's about 15% of couples. But in the cases I know of, both spouses went on to personally grow. They all had ICs and all thought their m's were over. In one case it took 5 years for them to reconcile and I'm not sure they saw it coming.


I don't want to pay her what she wants. I don't want her to ask for more, either.

Unless she is trying to make new law, just let the L's work that out. Detach from the results.

On top of this, I just want to make sure that she understands that I believe I can forgive her and we can get past it,

NOT connected to the D settlement! It's as if you are trying to manipulate her financially, which you did inside the m, I might add, and it does not come off as love. Not to me.

Lying to hide assets might eliminate recon chances but simply advocating for yourself via a L, won't. At least not long term. It's how you behave and act that will matter most.


without using words like "forgiveness" to avoid forfeiting things legally if she tries to take advantage of my forgiveness, legally. That's why I talk of being able to rewind, instead.

What??

I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.

It's also nothing you need to share with her now.

Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)

That is not "forgiveness".

If someone could link my post to him from his previous thread, here, I sure would appreciate it.

[Cadet]

I posted a long note to you on your last thread. I don't know how to link it here.

I hope you'll check it out.

Good luck

I put it on this thread above

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks Cadet!

[WshIKnw]

she complained about me looking at porn, which I did do some of, but in the past she always would just say "well, I know that all guys do it..."

to me, that ^^ is her talking herself out of making it an issue - b/c you didn't want to stop. You didn't tell us what you said to her, or your reasons for the porn.

Am I to just know that my wife doesn't like something, if she acts like it's not a big deal every time it comes up? At least I was honest and told her that I did look at it. Look, I know now that it was bad most likely, and I would err on the side of caution and not view it while in a relationship. It probably greatly affected my ability to appreciate her, and affected my libido. She wanted sex a little bit more often than I did. I didn't know whether a man looking at porn a little bit while in a marriage or relationship was a harmful thing or not. I could even see it being helpful. You know? Do men have a need to have multiple partners? I don't know. Monogamy seems to be a societal construct that isn't natural. Maybe men need it, biologically. Porn allows them to kind of feel like they have it. It's just a maybe. I didn't know, and still don't. I told my wife the same thing. She didn't seem to have an opinion. It was only later, when she was going all out negative towards me, post-BD, that she decided it was a terrible thing. Well, she probably cheated on me physically, and that's probably why all of a sudden me looking at porn was a huge deal that she brought up several times. She was probably recording me, too, which might be why she would bring it up so much, especially when on the phone. (I know that my co-worker's wife with the same lawyer tried to record him all the time.) It wasn't that I didn't want to stop. I was never asked to stop, or even suggested that I should stop. I was only asked to keep it minimal enough that it didn't affect my libido to the point that we couldn't have sex successfully. And she was mostly happy with our sex life. Told me I was very good in bed. My reasons for looking were because I thought it was no harm, as long as it stayed in moderation. I thought our marriage was fine, and I have to wonder how harmful it was, because I did it throughout our relationship, from day one, and she stayed with me for ten years, and she knew about me looking at it very early on. I was honest with her about everything. I wouldn't chance it now. It could have been why I was losing appreciation for my wife and it certainly affected my desire to want to have sex more often. And it very likely made her feel less desired by me.

Her happiness was my goal. I thought she was happy. It's hard to be motivated to make someone happier when you think they are happy. I am well aware of the things I did wrong in the marriage, and everyone else here can tell you how much time I've spent blaming myself, as can my family. Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done. I have spent an inordinate amount of time reading my wife's letters outlining her complaints, reading books/websites/etc. about relationships and the differences between men and woman. That is something that I will continue to study, but I have learned a ton of things about. But right now, my issues are about improving myself. I'm not doing a very good job of that. I'm doing a terrible job of being positive and hopeful, especially in the morning.

I addressed the rest of your post in a more recent post, where I talk about what I've been doing. It's right here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734133#Post2734133

You said some more things about stuff that I did in the relationship that were wrong. I know. It's terrible. I have learned, and am continuing to.

We want to feel protected and loved by our spouses. In one survey wives stated that "security" is the number one priority they have for their m's.

We want to feel financially and physically secure. That means we need a h who is strong, physically and mentally. This is especially true if we want to bear their children.

Yeah, this scares me because I don't know whether I can ever be that strong for a woman. I thought I had found a woman that was fine with how I was, because she is a strong woman, but maybe once she got to where she was interested in having kids, she changed her mind. Such a shame. Well, I can work out to be stronger. I can try to be stronger mentally, but that's the hard part. I'm reading a book on dealing with fear right now. Is it my fault that she married a wimpy guy, and then decided later on that he wasn't good enough? In her defense, she hadn't yet seen all of my wimpiness, but she had seen most of it.

To me these things to work on are kind of great news b/c the changes she wants in you could be so easily seen. And you want to make them, for you, correct?

I don't think she wants to see jack-squat in me, but maybe she does. She has indicated that she doesn't, but maybe that's kind of to make sure any changes I make are for me. I don't know. There's so much hatred in her towards me. I do want to make changes for me. I don't like the life I was living. I was rotting away on the computer. I put all my energy into one hobby and learning that one skill. I wasn't taking care of my body, which my brain needs, too. I wasn't taking care of my looks, which my wife and my self-esteem needs. I wasn't being more well-rounded, so that I was more interesting socially.

You cannot detach without GAL and you cannot make changes in yourself while you keep looking over your shoulder to check on what she is doing or seeing.

Very true.

Why would her affirming herself, hurt your feelings? DIG DEEPER.

When she was answering my compliments with "I agree", basically, it made me feel like she didn't value my compliments. Is that weird or something?

[WshIKnw]

What??

I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.

It's also nothing you need to share with her now.

Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)

That is not "forgiveness".

I was told by a lawyer and paralegal that I should probably stay away from talk of forgiveness until my wife and I had come to a separation agreement, I'm assuming because I would not be able to perhaps use evidence of an affair as any sort of bargaining chip, or be able to threaten a lawsuit, if I had said I had forgiven her. I would never forgive OM, though, of course, unless I just needed to, to let it go.

[25yearsmlc]

What??

I'm a L and I don't know what the he11 you are talking about. Forgiveness is not illegal or against your legal interests.

It's also nothing you need to share with her now.

Condonation is when a couple reconciles after an A, and later the LBSer files for D and uses the earlier A as the reason, (although there was no repeat of the A.)

That is not "forgiveness".

I was told by a lawyer and paralegal that I should probably stay away from talk of forgiveness until my wife and I had come to a separation agreement, I'm assuming because I would not be able to perhaps use evidence of an affair as any sort of bargaining chip, or be able to threaten a lawsuit, if I had said I had forgiven her. I would never forgive OM, though, of course, unless I just needed to, to let it go.

Let me try another way of saying this.

They are talking about condonation, which is only applicable if you reconciled AND later on, tried to use this present affair as grounds for divorce. The court would say "no, you cannot use the previous affair from the past, as present days grounds for divorcing..." (And btw, none of this matters in a no fault state. )

So even if A is grounds for div in your state, this relationship would not be usable against her, IF you reconciled and lived together.

Not really about forgiveness. I'm not sure what else you wanted to write in an email to her. Maybe you wanted to admit things that were not helpful or maybe they worried about that.

Moving on,

Re the Porn issue -- first, I don't mean to harp on porn itself. That is not actually the main point I'm trying to get through to you. It's the fact that it came up for you and your wife, repeatedly, yet you changed nothing. You still see her as the party at fault.

You wrote "Every time it came up, she'd say...well other men do it..." Means it came up more than once. And somehow you didn't pick up on that being important to her b/c she didn't call it a deal breaker and she didn't throw out the word "divorce" in your face.


What I hear you saying is that unless it's going to cost you big time, you won't give up on something "just for her happiness."

It's like saying " if she's actually going to leave me, well then maybe I'll make a change...and if she just wants me to give it up but won't leave me for continuing doing what hurts her, well, then I won't give it up"

Wish, can you see my point at all?

I feel as if you are defending yourself, instead of trying to see things in a new light.

How does that help you?

[WshIKnw]

You still see her as the party at fault.

I'm sorry. I appreciate your thoughts, but statements like this seem to indicate you are very unfamiliar with my situation.

I will say one thing. My wife is a very assertive woman. She made no bones about letting me know what she thinks about a lot of things that I did or didn't do. She would have told me porn really bugged her if it did.

[MoveFrwd]

Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done.

How is 'keeping score' helping you?

She is going to do what she's going to do. I continue to recommend you keep your focus squarely on what YOU are doing. What if instead of one OM, it were seven. Does that make iwhat she's doing now even worse? Maybe. Does it change the work you have in front of you? Not really.

So lose the score pad and figure out what YOU need to do.

[25yearsmlc]

YOU WROTE:


how am I to just know that my wife doesn't like something, if she acts like it's not a big deal every time it comes up?


as I said, the fact that it comes up more than once suffices...


At least I was honest and told her that I did look at it.

it's a pretty low bar to say that not lying to your w is somehow a significant positive.

Look, I know now that it was bad most likely,

in your m, it was positively bad. Not "most likely".

I mean, do you still doubt that? Add in the comments you made that made her feel bad about her appearance, and your low sex drive, (while she knew you were attracted to the porn women) and you created a bad combination for her ego & self image.

When women don't feel like our h's are attracted to us, it lowers our libido, and it's a big big deal. It's humiliating & it's shameful to us. I am not justifying your wife's affair, but you must see that feeling undesired , it makes us vulnerable to OMs.

and I would err on the side of caution and not view it while in a relationship. It probably greatly affected my ability to appreciate her, and affected my libido. She wanted sex a little bit more often than I did. I didn't know whether a man looking at porn a little bit while in a marriage or relationship was a harmful thing or not.

She told you it was. And it affected your libido AND that hurt her too.


I could even see it being helpful. You know?

But in YOUR M, it was not helpful. This isn't about porn, it's about porn in YOUR M.

Why do you resist just admitting this, in full? No one says it makes you evil. It just makes you honest about a mistake you chose to make.


Do men have a need to have multiple partners? I don't know. Monogamy seems to be a societal construct that isn't natural. Maybe men need it, biologically.

Really? Okay, you are getting way off track and just deflecting from any feedback that means you must DO or CHANGE something. Is this what happened during counseling when she said something bothered her? You said you "didn't know" or that "it shouldn't bother her" or that it was a "societal construct"?

Because there are societal constructs about men and our expectations of husbands, too. You dismiss those from what I can tell. I really want to help you, but I'm not sure I can.

Porn allows them to kind of feel like they have it. It's just a maybe. I didn't know, and still don't. I told my wife the same thing. She didn't seem to have an opinion.

Oh she had an opinion.


It was only later, when she was going all out negative towards me, post-BD, that she decided it was a terrible thing. Well, she probably cheated on me physically, and that's

more deflections and blame...no insights that require change on your end. Wsh, here's the thing.

IF YOU CANNOT OR WILL NOT CHANGE. THEN YOU ARE CHOOSING POWERLESSNESS...and you may as well give up now.


probably why all of a sudden me looking at porn was a huge deal that she brought up several times. She was probably recording me, too, which might be why she would bring it up so much, especially when on the phone. (I know that my co-worker's wife with the same lawyer tried to record him all the time.)

What???

Absolutely none of this^^ is relevant. It's not about the porn! it's about your refusal to change anything or to listen to her, until she wanted out.


It wasn't that I didn't want to stop. I was never asked to stop, or even suggested that I should stop.

SIGH...imo, when a wife brings up her h's Porn watching, AND is not openly enthusiastic about it, it's Not a good thing. Add in other factors like that she wanted more sex with you, but you did not meet her sex needs, in part b/c you met your own needs elsewhere...

Yes, you should have stopped it. If you somehow don't see that she wanted you to stop, then maybe your IC can help you spot emotions and beliefs in others better.

Wsh, you said you might fall in the autism spectrum somewhere. I have a brother with Aspergers, and I'm familiar with the challenges he faces. He tends not to pick up on social cues if they are emotion based.

He is married and they have a child. I know it's harder for him to know how she feels so his w makes an extra effort to verbalize her exact feelings. But he admits that he has Asperger's and he does make an effort to address it. (I hate to admit this, but I suspect that she'd have left him, otherwise. )


BTW, to some women, if their h's watch porn, they are cheating.

Maybe a good rule of thumb is that when married men watch porn in private or hide it, it would be unusual for it to "help" that marriage.

In fact, anything you hide from your spouse is probably corrosive to the m.


I was only asked to keep it minimal enough

sure sounds like a "suggestion to stop", but maybe it's best not to belabor the point anymore.

--

[25yearsmlc]

PART 2

You wrote:


I thought our marriage was fine, and I have to wonder how harmful it was, because I did it throughout our relationship, from day one, and she stayed with me

The fact that she stayed does not mean it didn't bother her. She may have worked hard to lessen the impact it had on her heart and ego, telling herself that a lot of men do it, or she may have seethed with resentment. She may have thought it would eventually not matter as much. But it did matter to her. I don't think she's lying at all.

If nothing else, you must learn this: Just b/c a spouse puts up with something for X amount of time, you cannot count on her staying forever...

You originally mentioned that you struggle with depression and anxiety and that it preceded present day problems in the m. So even when you feel the marriage was happy, you were depressed and had anxiety problems and that you preferred staying home and doing computer programs, over going out or socializing.

Are you getting treated for this? Do you want to? I recall your concerns about your TS clearance. But can you see how that view might be a tad harmful to yourself, and any future relationship b/c you are not addressing some core issues? Plus, who wants to live mostly depressed? What job and security clearance is worth that?

And for the record, I have seen high level professionals in the federal gov get treatment and not have it affect their career paths. I concede it could, but to my knowledge it has only happened rarely and with hospitalizations involved.



for ten years, and she knew about me looking at it very early on. I was honest with her about everything. I wouldn't chance it now. It could have been why I was losing appreciation for my wife and it certainly affected my desire to want to have sex more often. And it very likely made her feel less desired by me.

Okay so, ^^ you just proved the harm. Why argue the point any further?

It obviously did hurt your m. I mean, you deny it and then undermine your denial.

Her happiness was my goal. I thought she was happy. It's hard to be motivated to make someone happier when you think they are happy. I am well aware of the things I did wrong in the marriage, and everyone else here can tell you how much time I've spent blaming myself, as can my family.

I've read your thread, so that is all I know.

What I get here are a lot of reasons why you cannot change. Factors that make it uniquely hard for you. (it's not "easy" for any of us to change, especially when we are so hurt, trust me).

I also see Promises that you "would change --- IF IF IF" she returned.

Many questions about ways to maximize the chances of reconciliation...
And now, blaming her for the situation b/c hey, she had an affair, as if there were no other issues. I'm not defending her affair, but I am not buying your powerless routine, either.

She gave you feedback about why she was unhappy, and all I read from you is why the feedback isn't valid. But your own words prove that a lot of what she said, was valid.


In another post you said you were willing to try something out to combat your overall fears of things in life, but you said then if she came back, you'd stop it.

That is pure tactical planning to obtain your goal, it's not authentic self improvement.

What are you doing to lower your fears and social anxieties? Do you see the cost of those unresolved problems, in and outside your M?

IF you want to show your w real change, then make some, and they will show.

They don't have to be grand gestures, like learning to fly or skydive, to prove you are fighting your fears. Small changes over time, can make a very different trajectory in your life.

Small consistent changes + time = change she can believe in.

More importantly, those changes will reflect your growth.


Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done.


Your wife is not here trying to save the m. You are.

We cannot do anything to help her.

If your focus is on what your w has done wrong, then you should get the scorecard out. Give yourself points for not cheating or beating. There. You win.

Except she has her own scorecard. And on hers, you are not the winner. On HER scorecard, she has many many grievances and points, and you have many demerits...that is why I think scorecards are so destructive.

We don't use the same measurement tool and some of us have scorecards that go way farther back than our partner's.


I'm not arguing about what strategy you should employ now to save your m.

I'm not even sure that is the best course of action for you, at this point. I don't think you are ready to reconcile and have a different kind of m, even if she was.

But I do know that blaming her and deflecting from your own path, is the recipe for staying stuck and learning nothing.

For all the pain this ordeal causes, you should get your money's worth in personal growth. Because in reality - that growth is the best "strategy" for you no matter what happens.


I have spent an inordinate amount of time reading my wife's letters outlining her complaints, reading books/websites/etc. about relationships and the differences between men and woman.

Reading is great if it leads to a behavioral change. Can you list 2 specifics?

[Dawgs]

I thought our marriage was fine, and I have to wonder how harmful it was, because I did it throughout our relationship, from day one, and she stayed with me

Why do you think we have said she's been planning on leaving for much longer than you know or are willing to admit? This statement speaks more than volumes. Much more. As 25 and Kaizen said, you're keeping score and repeatedly doing things that she complained of is one reason why she left. She grew tired of your crap. Period. Not much else to say...she complained, yet you kept on. You kept score. You made it her fault. Whatever.

Can you get her back? Honestly? Why would she even want to come back? Can you give us one good reason why she would even consider coming back?

Another thing I have noticed in your posts is that you consider all of us attacking you - was this your mentality in your marriage, too?

I'm not defending her affair, but I am not buying your powerless routine, either.

Interesting point, 25. Wsh - did you play the powerless child in your marriage?

I'm sure that you'll see us as attacking again, but we aren't we are finding that the only route we have is through the 2x4. If it ruffles your feathers, then so be it. But, its not and we wouldn't...not even me.

[WshIKnw]

Let's remember what my wife has done, which would seem to me to be waaaay worse than anything I've done.

How is 'keeping score' helping you?

She is going to do what she's going to do. I continue to recommend you keep your focus squarely on what YOU are doing. What if instead of one OM, it were seven. Does that make iwhat she's doing now even worse? Maybe. Does it change the work you have in front of you? Not really.

So lose the score pad and figure out what YOU need to do.

I only mentioned that because 25 keeps bringing up what I did in the marriage that was wrong. I have spent so much time on that. I've spent so much time blaming myself when everyone is so flabbergasted that I could take my wife back after what she's done. Like, "Why are you blaming yourself so much? She has committed the ultimate sin. You were just being a typical man that hadn't yet learned how to be a good husband. You were behaving the way that came natural to you. You were treating her the way you wanted to be treated, rather than how she needed to be treated, because you didn't know better." When what I did wrong in the marriage becomes the subject for discussion, I feel like I'm going backwards. I'm trying to detach now, and GAL. Don't worry. I will definitely continue learning the woman, because I will never, ever want to repeat this again, with any woman. I feel like the biggest idiot in the world, because of the mistakes I made in the marriage. I don't need help with that. And anyone that has been with me from the start, through this, knows that.

[WshIKnw]

Yes, you should have stopped it. If you somehow don't see that she wanted you to stop, then maybe your IC can help you spot emotions and beliefs in others better.

Wsh, you said you might fall in the autism spectrum somewhere. I have a brother with Aspergers, and I'm familiar with the challenges he faces. He tends not to pick up on social cues if they are emotion based.

He is married and they have a child. I know it's harder for him to know how she feels so his w makes an extra effort to verbalize her exact feelings. But he admits that he has Asperger's and he does make an effort to address it. (I hate to admit this, but I suspect that she'd have left him, otherwise. )

I learned early on, the first year my wife and I were dating, that I had to ask her periodically how happy she was, because otherwise I would be clueless. I learned this after I was completely shocked when she all of a sudden pulled back from me, contemplating breaking up with me. Is it because I might have some autism or because her mantra was "fake it until you make it" (that is, she would hide her feelings)? I don't know. But as I got very comfortable in the marriage, I forgot the importance of me asking her how happy she is, and that made me miss out on opportunities to improve how she felt, because if I thought she was happy, I wasn't very motivated to make her happier, even if she was complaining about things from time to time. I know I screwed up, 25. Why are you harping on what I did wrong? No one else seems to see that as something that needs to be discussed, on this forum, or in my life. Everyone has been telling me to stop blaming myself.

[WshIKnw]

It's so hard to GAL, when your wife was so much of your life, and she leaves you with no friends, and no hobbies that would get me out around people. She has really done a number on me.

[Vanilla]

Wish

If only we had the power to make another happy!

If only she had the power to take away your friends and hobbies.

Both of these choices are our own. Of course environment has an influence on us, it does. Definitely.

If you want friends, hobbies and GAL, that's down to YOU.

That is the good news, the very good news. That it is your choice.

So Wish, what are your goals for all three?

V

[WshIKnw]

I just want my life to go back the way it was, with my fully restored appreciation for my wife, and much greater understanding of things regarding her.

[Vanilla]

I just want my life to go back the way it was, with my fully restored appreciation for my wife, and much greater understanding of things regarding her.

Yes, you may want.

This is a wish. Sadly reality is different.

It can never go back, it can only be now. That time is done and gone.

Thank goodness, why?

It is the route to repeat.

Can you answer my Questions?

Can you enjoy the now, set goals for you for the future you?

Can you GAL?

Can you accept things can never be the same?

It sounds harsh I understand that, it has however the refreshing sunshine after the storm.


V

[WshIKnw]

Are you saying that my wife and I could never have a successful relationship again or that things would never be the same with her? Being the same isn't necessary, and I wouldn't want the dissatisfaction to return, anyway. I'd just want the good part of our relationship back.

[25yearsmlc]

Are you saying that my wife and I could never have a successful relationship again or that things would never be the same with her?

Most spouses who leave their marriage, (regardless of OPs) , will not return to the marriage they left.

So if YOU are not going to change, there is very little hope of a recon, that will last.

What are you doing to increase the chance of her coming back? What are you doing to prepare for a happy life, without her?

Can you see that those^^^ 2 options require similar actions from you?


Being the same isn't necessary, and I wouldn't want the dissatisfaction to return, anyway. I'd just want the good part of our relationship back.

that really is what everyone wants. Wishing and wishing, won't get you there.

What do you think will?

[Vanilla]

Are you saying that my wife and I could never have a successful relationship again or that things would never be the same with her? Being the same isn't necessary, and I wouldn't want the dissatisfaction to return, anyway. I'd just want the good part of our relationship back.

Not at all.

Any R you have is likely a new one. Going back to the old won't happen. It's gone.

Why only want the 'good' it wasn't enough last time, why not want different and wonderfully connected.

That requires shift in you.

V

[Vanilla]

So what are you goals?

25 is asking you what needs to change too. I like her view very much. It's grounded.

Now is a good time to think about your shift and actions that have to happen to make this shift tangible.

V

[25yearsmlc]

(Thanks Vanilla, likewise).

Wsh,

2 things. First, I've asked several questions that remain unanswered.

Can you tell me if you read them but don't want to answer, or if you don't know the answers yet?

Second, I've learned something about life.
Some of the hardest most challenging things in life, are not very complicated.

They are damn difficult, and painful, yet the solutions are actually simple. I struggled with over thinking things.

But I'm learning not to overcomplicate things, especially if it's b/c I'm resisting the actions I need to take.

On one hand, you know you must change, but you resist that. Which is a pattern your w identified to you. She wanted to go out and socialize, she wanted more people in her life outside of work. She asked you several times to do so, to get out of your comfort zone...and it would have been one simple (not saying "easy"!) thing for you to do.

There is a powerful inertia & resistance within you. Part of it is fear, and part of it is habit.

So, here are some GAL suggestions that won't be easy, but GAL is not complicated.


Join a group or organization or club

visit/travel somewhere new,

coach a team or tutor or mentor someone,


take a class (not online) & study something (e.g, cooking or a foreign language)

play a team sport or game --

Go ahead and learn to fly that plane, - at least take ground school,

work out and exercise, become stronger

get a hair cut, buy some new types of clothes, (you will feel different, and that is fine!)

volunteer somewhere
...audition for a show to act, take music lessons to play an instrument
help with backstage crew of a theater group if you don't want to be "on", -

Choose 2 of these^^ and DO them, this month. Wsh...it's not complicated.

It's essential to GAL. It will help you become the man you want to become. (And yes also, the man she wanted you to become.)

FYI, I want you to know I literally did all of the above...and I was in Alaska, (& going out in the winter took an enormous amount of desperation on my end) oh, and I had a newborn baby, & 2 kids.

I'm just saying it can be done.

An enormous amount of inertia & fears are holding you back. Are those fears and the powerful inertia, serving you?


But in a way It's almost like a math equation for you, "If I do X, then wife will come back" and oh, here is some empirical data to back it up". But it's not life.

Yet you resist change, mightily. Even in the face of all the "Data" that shows how poorly that resistance to change has done for you...

We are telling you that you need to make some shifts in your life. Regardless of how you behave towards your w or think about the OM, you really must GAL...

So, it boils down to these few questions...

What are you willing to do to become a better (happier) man?

And can you see that those ^^changes to actualize, are more likely to increase the chance of her returning and remaining?

Can you see that regardless of HER actions, you will be in a better place if and only if, you make those shifts?

So what exactly is in conflict?

And what are the changes you are willing to make?

[WshIKnw]

Hey, 25yearsmlc.

I have been a little busy, and I was thinking about the latest posts towards me. You just gave me a lot of great ideas on how to GAL. I really thought this latest post by you was very profound. I can't believe this level of counseling is available for free. You guys here are really smart, and know what you are talking about. And the fact that you are willing to take all the time to read my thread and write out such high quality responses makes me feel very fortunate. And at a time when I feel so thrown away and hated and unloved and unvalued, and am continuously invaded by thoughts of my wife spending the weekend with OM, like I suspect she is doing, it really means a lot. Thank you.

I'm going to read over the latest posts again and respond with what I'm going to do to GAL more.

[LITB]

Wsh,

I have a tremendous amount of respect for 25. I find her advice to be incredibly helpful. It certainly was helpful to me during the most challenging times of my sitch.

I sincerely hope that you begin taking the time to incorporate some of her suggestions to remake yourself into the best person possible. Ultimately, that's where the rubber meets the road.

[WshIKnw]

Can you guys give me reasons to cut my hair?

My main reason is that it will make it a lot faster for me to get ready to go each day. I have also read that by far most women do not like long hair on a guy. The entire time I was with my wife I had long hair, but she did show interest in me cutting it, although she was scared that she wouldn't like it. It will make me feel like I fit in better with other guys, perhaps. Some people view a man with long hair negatively, like he's shady or into drugs. Changing my appearance makes me perhaps seem more like a different person. Might make me appear more masculine and strong.

My reasons for not cutting it are: I kind of like how it looks on me. I don't know what style I want to replace it with. Once it's cut, it takes a good while to grow back. I am afraid I'll regret it. I like how having long hair makes me feel unique and individualistic. Scared my wife won't like it. After all, she fell in love with me, with the same hair I have now. (OM is very different in appearance. He has short hair and is burly. He's probably just playing her. He's that sexy excitement I guess she has been missing, mostly due to my lack of paying attention to her needs and not making her feel special and cherished. I think it's so unfair that such an innocent crime, based on ignorance and inexperience, has such a harsh penalty.)

[doodler]

Can you guys give me reasons to cut my hair?

WshIKnw,

Go retro and get a mullet.

[Dawgs]

Go retro and get a mullet.

High and tight.

[KevinIn]

Cut it.

[doodler]

Cut it.

Kevin,

It sounds like you're the fence. Your words tell me that you're having second thoughts. Maybe you should recommend a trim?

[LITB]

Can you guys give me reasons to cut my hair?

Because it is a 180.

Too much stinkin' thinkin'.

[WshIKnw]

Haven't thought of that, LITB.

[25yearsmlc]

Can you guys give me reasons to cut my hair?

why wouldn't you cut it??
You list reasons FOR cutting it...and you know It'll grow back

My main reason is that it will make it a lot faster for me to get ready to go each day. I have also read that by far most women do not like long hair on a guy. The entire time I was with my wife I had long hair, but she did show interest in me cutting it, although she was scared that she wouldn't like it. It will make me feel like I fit in better with other guys, perhaps. Some people view a man with long hair negatively, like he's shady or into drugs. Changing my appearance makes me perhaps seem more like a different person. Might make me appear more masculine and strong.

and it shows change, regardless of whether it's only external. Tell us about what you really fear would happen by cutting your hair?

What do you think keeping the same hair style & length for years, reveals about you?

My reasons for not cutting it are: I kind of like how it looks on me. I don't know what style I want to replace it with. Once it's cut, it takes a good while to grow back. I am afraid I'll regret it. I like how having long hair makes me feel unique and individualistic. Scared my wife won't like it. After all, she fell in love with me, with the same hair I have now.

anything strike you about these^^^ comments?
She fell in love with you while you had long hair, not because you had long hair. And she left that same guy...

do you want to be and look like the same guy she left?

(OM is very different in appearance. He has short hair and is burly.

then it seems long hair and thinness are not deal breakers OR deal makers...

Do you see value in exercise? Do YOU want to become a stronger man?




He's probably just playing her.



Stop this^^^. It's so counter productive - b/c it wastes your time on someone OTHER THAN YOU - and you are the only person here that you can help.

He's that sexy excitement I guess she has been missing, mostly due to my lack of paying attention to her needs and not making her feel special and cherished.


Yikes, you are again deflecting from the valid concerns and unmet needs of hers, which she communicated. All that she did not say or do was threaten you with divorce if you didn't change them. Her pain was not enough of an inducement for you to change anything at all, from what I can tell.

Now, below, you whine about how unfair she is to want out of the marriage. Can you tell us why she should stay? Not what you want or need, but what's in it for HER?

If you have nothing to offer her, change that. It's all up to you.

I think it's so unfair that such an innocent crime, based on ignorance and inexperience, has such a harsh penalty.)

do you WANT to be a powerless victim? B/c this^^ is the route there. Powerlessness and victimhood...

You remain static and unchanged, at your peril.

[Dawgs]

Well said, 25, well said. We've going around this same horse for quite some time now. Love the way you worded it.

[WshIKnw]

Yikes, you are again deflecting from the valid concerns and unmet needs of hers, which she communicated. All that she did not say or do was threaten you with divorce if you didn't change them. Her pain was not enough of an inducement for you to change anything at all, from what I can tell.

25, you are a woman, so you might not be capable of understanding my perspective here. My wife probably shares your exact same perspective, which is likely why she can't forgive me, coupled with the fact that she has this fantasy replacement man. But as I have said a million times, I didn't understand that my wife was unhappy. I knew she had complaints and desires, but I didn't know how much she needed these things. She seemed happy to me. I am being completely honest when I say that. Why would I lie about that over an anonymous internet forum? I have said this probably from post 1. And it's hard to be motivated to make big changes to make someone happier who already seems happy. Please do not demonize me because of my lack of being able to understand her. I just saw her complaints as nagging. And from what I had seen, that is a very common theme in marriages for the wife to complain, and so I just thought it was normal and we were fine. I mean, how much can you blame me, when my wife wrote me an anniversary card 2 or 3 weeks before BD, telling me how glad she was to have me in her life and how she wanted to continue to grow with me for many years? (nothing on my end changed during those few weeks) She also made a public status update on Facebook telling me Happy Anniversary. I was still her favorite, and she loved me so, paraphrased. Her mantra is "fake it until you make it". Men have a hard enough time trying to understand women. We don't need you hide your feelings on top of it!

My mom divorced my dad when I was 3.5. I had one step father growing up, for a few years, and my mom divorced him. I didn't have much of a model for how to be happily married, especially how a husband is to act in a marriage. I was married to my wife for 7 years, and with her for 10. So, I thought I must be doing alright, for her to stay with me this long. I got very comfortable, relaxed, and complacent. I stopped asking her how happy she was, which was the Golden Tool of our relationship, without which, we would fall. And that's what happened. I forgot the importance of periodically asking her how happy she was, and I forgot how easy it was to lose her. When I knew she was unhappy, I was always quick to act, just like when she dropped the bomb. I did all kinds of things to be sweet to her and show my love for her, to try to convince her not to leave. When I knew I needed to do something for my wife, I did it. Now I know that when a woman says something, you have to listen. My dad told me that way back, and I didn't know how true it is, until now. Some lessons come so hard.

Please stop bashing me, 25. I didn't see her pain. I didn't get it for some reason. I don't know why. But from what I've read, it's a pretty common thing for men to be like that. They have to learn the creature that is the woman, but women usually give up before we have learned, or at the same time that we have learned. My relationship with my wife was my first 'real' relationship. Too bad that doesn't make a d4mn bit of difference to my wife, because she's driven by emotions, especially right now, in her wayward demon state. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I had no idea what my wife could turn into, and how quickly and easily she could. I ask myself multiple times a day how the heck she could do that -- go from love to hate so strongly and so quickly.

Yes, I made mistakes, but do they warrant my Christian wife having an affair with a Mormon guy at work, who has a wife and four kids (still were living with him, until about a week ago), leaving me for him, treating me like I was the devil after bomb drop, blaming me entirely for her leaving the marriage, as though it's also my fault that she had an affair (which she has never admitted, of course, but there is plenty of evidence), rushing to break things off with me, so that she could freely be with him, by quickly getting out of our house, getting her stuff out, and sending me separation papers? No second chance, despite a month of pleas. No warning about approaching the end of her rope. No ultimatum. Then she openly sees him, even at night at her house, while he's still living with his wife. She drops me like a ton of bricks. Goes from being all about me to being none about me. It seems that I could drop dead and she all of a sudden would have no care in this world. Makes no contact with me hardly, unless it's over business or to complain about something. Goes off and does things with this guy, along with having him over at night, before she and I have a signed separation agreement. I have no idea what he has on his end with his wife. My wife is a home-wrecker, and so is a--hole, but she's perhaps worse, because they have 4 kids. My wife and I were planning to start trying to have kids shortly before BD. I only mention their religions, because she looked into converting to Mormonism to be with this guy. Really? Who is worse? Me or her?

[MoveFrwd]

Please stop bashing me, 25.

I dont want to presume to speak for 25years.

But I dont see anywhere where she has bashed your past actions. Yes, there was a discussion on porn, but it isnt necessarily about what you DID....its more about what you are DOING now.

Your posts are repeatedly focused on your wife's victimization of you. We would much rather see the ways in which you are taking YOUR life back.

[Dawgs]

Here we go again.

I've never said this on here but it NEEDS to be said. You are either a very good troll and have everyone snowed, or you mental help - which is it?

Your attack on 25 was uncalled for. Period.

Why are you even here? You say everything is attacking, and if you truly believe that, then that speaks volumes. Did you behave this way with her? If so, then it's no wonder she left. Dude grow up.

No one has attacked you. Maybe we should. And get a hair cut.

I vote for troll.

[WshIKnw]

I don't know, Jeep. I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to offend anyone. My last post toward 25 before the previous one was a post of great gratitude. I just don't understand why the subject keeps going to what I did wrong in the marriage, because I feel like I'm good on that subject. I mean, I'm going to continue learning in that area, but I feel like I'm good on that for right now.

[WshIKnw]

Jeep, I went back to read my previous post towards 25. I don't see it as an attack against her. And I certainly didn't intend for it to be an attack. So, please no one take me as attacking anyone.

[25yearsmlc]

So , how can we help you?


What do you want us to tell you? How wrong SHE is? Okay, she should not have had an affair.

That was wrong.

Now what?

[WshIKnw]

I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm just very emotional.

[LITB]

Here's the thing. You can read back through your threads and find enough great advice to map out a successful turn around. Again, it begins with you.

You refuse to listen. Your W was not happy no matter what you are telling yourself. If she was, you would have never found this board.

I have found that the people that put themselves in the best position to save their marriages, are the ones that listen and put forth the effort to make changes.

You are in the presence of a great community that want to help you. When we continue to give you the same advice over and over again, but it falls on deaf ears, we all will eventually move on.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Life is filled with choices.

You get to choose to make changes or stay stagnant.

You get to choose to move or stay stuck.

You get to choose to listen or ignore the incredible advice you have received.

You get to choose to become better or to become bitter.

You get to choose to prove your W right or wrong for leaving.

Life is happening and it awaits no one. Keep doing what you are doing, and it will pass you by.

BTW, I have a good friend who had a sitch that paralleled mine. He was 6 months behind me. His W moved from PA to AZ with their 2 sons to be with another man. He found himself divorced a short time later. He had to take a job that wasn't all that great to see his sons.

Point being, HE DIDN'T LISTEN!!!

[Vanilla]

Wish

You are getting some of the best support that is available anywhere.

So this is my view.

Changing externals doesn't change the internals. And you can choose shift. Something which is permanent so that you are in the best place. The posters are investing in you, so invest in yourself.

There are several of the very best posters suggesting very strongly that you own your issues AND resolve them. Two wrongs won't create a right.

25 has asked some very direct questions, the answers to which will enable us to understand more of your back story. If you want more directed support then answer those as best you can. This will allow feedback and more support. It's a virtuous cycle. 25 is a big hearted poster with room to understand and I have observed her support some LBS in tough spots before.

Being emotional is perfectly authentic to you and it's fine. In fact for me, any poster twisting in the wind is worthy of extra validation and the extra mile.

Affairs are always a bad choice, awful and the worst ever. Nothing you have done, nothing makes you responsible for your wayward wife and her crudy scum bucket OM. This isn't a competition as to who is worse you or WW. Nor can anything you can do in the past be changed or undone or unsaid.

I want you to experience real spell break and shift. Help yourself to become open and make those shifts.

It is the tougher way.

So are you ready to answer those questions?

V

[25yearsmlc]

Saying I "can't understand" you b/c I'm a woman, would be insulting if you knew me. But I take no offense b/c you know nothing about me. I just worry that is the same attitude you showed your w when she didn't agree with you.

You mention the differences between men and women kind of a lot, and I detect an undertone of emotionalism (irrationality?) assigned to women, and logic to men (i.e. you) . Not a very useful belief, in my opinion. More like a defense...

For what it's worth, I didn't care about your porn use. It's just not a hot button topic for me. I only cared that you ignored what your wife felt about it. Every single time I commented about it, you defended yourself and simultaneously claimed to have "owned" it.

Wsh, you came to this site for help in saving your m, or alternatively, to save yourself. Correct?

Your w is not here. It doesn't matter what we think of HER or her choices. You're the one here.

So yes, the focus is only on what YOU can do to help reconcile

AND OR help you get through and hopefully grow from this God awful painful ordeal. That is why we only focus on you.

I've suggested GAL activities more than once. As far as I know you are doing little in that area.

I've suggested ways to change how you view this,

or how you can change your behaviors in order to grow in this ordeal...and push beyond your comfort levels.

As far as I know, you've resisted all of these^^, or you vacillate. Or get mad, claiming we are bashing you.

You say you have "already owned" your part in the marriage problems -
but I don't get that feeling Wsh. I get the feeling you want us to harp on her, but that's not our job. (We know this $[censored]. Believe me, we get it.)

Now back to you...

What are you changing that reflects "owning" your part?


We want to help you benefit and learn...

When you say She is "way worse than" you, and "she did far worse things", my question is What can we do with that type of comment, to help you now?

Your behavior now is literally the only thing within your control.

Learning from your mistakes and behaving differently from this day forward, is your goal. Correct? Am I missing something?

Finally, You said you have struggled with depression, anxiety and fear for many years.

These issues ^^were absolutely marital problems. And You said that you "can't do anything about" them b/c of your job. So, I assume nothing there will change...

From where I sit, that ^^ is you placing more importance on your security clearance
than your marriage. (Or that powerful inertia is keeping you stuck again )...


if nothing behaviorally has changed for you, then this experience pain isn't even yielding the one upside of it.


Wsh, Pain can be the touchstone for tremendous growth. OR for lasting sadness and bitterness.


In the end, that is ^^^ our most important choice.

[WshIKnw]

Wow, 25. You must be a counselor for a living. Wait, you said you are a lawyer.. Well, now you know if you ever get tired of law...

Here is your post for my future reference, with great GAL suggestions:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734882#Post2734882

Can you all reread this post for what I've been working on, and tell me what else I should be doing.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734133#Post2734133

And before any of you tell me again that I'm doing those things for my wife, no, I recognize most of her complaints as things that I do need to improve, with or without her.

On top of reading books, I'm going to see a counselor. My step mom found one in her neighborhood, that would do it undocumented. Going to make myself a reminder to make an appointment.

I'm still thinking strongly about cutting the hair, but not sure I'm quite ready for that leap.

You mentioned getting into theater. My dad suggested that, and he and his father were big into theater at times in their lives. I might be interested in backstage work, or light/sound work. But unfortunately, a--hole is into theater, as is his wife.

[Vanilla]

You no longer have two feet.

I think you have shot both of them off.

V

[25yearsmlc]

Wow, 25. You must be a counselor for a living. Wait, you said you are a lawyer.. Well, now you know if you ever get tired of law...

Here is your post for my future reference, with great GAL suggestions:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734882#Post2734882

Can you all reread this post for what I've been working on, and tell me what else I should be doing.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2734133#Post2734133


What are you reading?

And before any of you tell me again that I'm doing those things for my wife, no, I recognize most of her complaints as things that I do need to improve, with or without her.

On top of reading books, I'm going to see a counselor. My step mom found one in her neighborhood, that would do it undocumented. Going to make myself a reminder to make an appointment.

I'm still thinking strongly about cutting the hair, but not sure I'm quite ready for that leap.

You mentioned getting into theater. My dad suggested that, and he and his father were big into theater at times in their lives. I might be interested in backstage work, or light/sound work. But unfortunately, a--hole is into theater, as is his wife.

So, you are "going to remind yourself" to make an appointment with a counselor and then you might really go. And you "might be interested in theater BUT..." and "Still thinking about..." cutting your hair...


I'm not trying to harp on you. But can you see a pattern ^^here? You seem to think these actions are high risk for you but they are not.


Yes I read your GAL activities. To me it seemed (mostly) a list of things you are not yet actually doing.

The exercising is great. Keep it up.

You seem to be avoiding activities with others...which is probably your biggest challenge and need. Inertia is a companion to you, but you need to fire that companion. Inertia keeps you isolated and stuck.

Have you joined something (club, team, organization, church) this month? Started a class that involves others? Visited a new place? Volunteered somewhere?

I could go on with the GAL list but you have the list.

I think you are waiting to be comfortable changing, but change is rarely comfortable.

At some point you'll have to decide if you are more comfortable being stuck. I don't know which choices you will make.

Watch the youtube videos of Amy Cuddy at her TED Talks. "Fake it till you become it", etc.

She discusses how we can change how we feel inside, with some external behavioral changes. She backs it up with empirical data.

"Outside in", rather than waiting to want to do something or waiting to feel like it, or endlessly waiting for inspiration...So we change the behaviors and THEN we feel changed, and we become better.

I don't have a lot of other suggestions for things to do.

Can you Just Do some?

[Dawgs]

I have to ask, why are you so obsessed with the OM?

If it weren't him, it would be someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't more than one. The thing is this cheating spouses aren't victims of conniving OMs. They went looking...an affair isn't an oops thing. They wanted it - whether it be with their partner or someone else. The marriage and their spouse is less than nothing to them. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is what it is. No excuses can be made...so stop worrying about the OM.

[MoveFrwd]

why are you so obsessed with the OM?

Yeah, something to think about. I know people around here refer to OM and OW by various names. I see youve taken to a$$hole. To me, I dont see the point in that. My beef was never with AP. We're never going to be friends. We're never going to be more than two people in my children's lives. I will always think poorly on the fact that AP decided to interfere with my marriage.

But calling names deflects from where my true focus should be. Dwelling on that interference does the same thing. My focus needs to be on me. Id advise you to do the same.

[KevinIn]

why are you so obsessed with the OM?

Yeah, something to think about. I know people around here refer to OM and OW by various names. I see youve taken to a$$hole. To me, I dont see the point in that. My beef was never with AP. We're never going to be friends. We're never going to be more than two people in my children's lives. I will always think poorly on the fact that AP decided to interfere with my marriage.

But calling names deflects from where my true focus should be. Dwelling on that interference does the same thing. My focus needs to be on me. Id advise you to do the same.

Thinking about the OM produces zero benefits. I only think about OM when im punching a boxing bag.

However, OM's wife can't get my wife out of her head. Its not healthy. And it gives my wife and OM something to talk about, which strengthens their bond.

[Dawgs]

However, OM's wife can't get my wife out of her head. Its not healthy. And it gives my wife and OM something to talk about, which strengthens their bond.

Same here. The ex couldn't get the OM's wife out of her head, either. However, she did block the OM's wife from social media stuff...probably had something to do with the fact that the OM's wife told her she'd rip her face off. Exact words. Funny as shite. Also, the OM's now ex-wife and I have become friends and have gone out for drinks on several occasions...something that drives the ex and the OM crazy. HAHA!

[leahsue]

I love that, Jeep! Drinks with the OM's ex. Karma bites another one.

[Dawgs]

I love that, Jeep! Drinks with the OM's ex. Karma bites another one.

Hey leahsue! How are you?

Yeah, the ex is quite upset that I even talk to the OM's ex, much less have become friends with her on social media or the whole drinks thing...

[WshIKnw]

However, OM's wife can't get my wife out of her head. Its not healthy. And it gives my wife and OM something to talk about, which strengthens their bond.

Good point, Kevin.

I don't talk about OM to my wife. In fact, I don't talk to her, because right now we are negotiating property distribution, and lately she has been really angry. I'll try to talk to her some more after the separation agreement is done. Maybe she will feel more free to discuss what in the actual f--- happened to us, since I will agree to her clause of never being able to sue her or a third party for cheating, if she comes back with what I want from her. I don't want to waste my time on a bunch of lies. She's just like Sandi says. I never knew that girl to lie to me the entire ten years we were together, but once she went cold (I assume cheated), she has been lying left and right, and acting like I'm Hitler.

The strangest thing happened Monday. I was heading to a fast food restaurant. While I was nearing the restaurant, I said to myself, "I wonder if I'll see them somewhere anytime soon". I get into the drive thru line, and lo and behold, a--hole is two cars ahead of me. This is a fairly large town we live in. And I don't think I wonder about the possibility of seeing them very often. So that was very, very strange. My wife was not with him, but he had at least one small child with him. This was also the first time I've seen him in a random place.

At church Sunday, the pastor was finally back from recovery. He remembered me. I used to join my wife there from time to time. He has a very impressive ability to remember names. He asked where W was. I told him that I didn't know. He asked me to call him.

Yesterday I called him. I told him what has been going on, and that I had very good evidence that my wife is seeing another man. He mentioned calling her or her mom. I told him that was fine, as long as he didn't make it seem like I asked him to, because I know that would make W mad. I gave him their numbers. If they ask me how he got their numbers, then I'll just tell the truth, that he asked for their numbers. My wife really likes him. So she shouldn't be mad if he calls.

He offered me a service that they provide with volunteers, where someone basically acts as a friend or support person. I told him I'd like to receive that service. He also told me he lives close by to me, and said he and I can have breakfast, lunch, and go on walks together. He's a very calm compassionate person. So that would​ be great. He also said a very long prayer that included basically everything, and I was moved to tears. I told him that it's amazing that he could come up with all of that on the fly so easily. I'm not a very religious person, but ever since BD, I've been trying to get help anywhere I can get it. He told me about a men's bible study that meets on Tuesday mornings. I may try that some time, mostly to get out and around people.

I have been trying to set up an appointment with the counselor, but still working on that.

[WshIKnw]

Also, the OM's now ex-wife and I have become friends and have gone out for drinks on several occasions...something that drives the ex and the OM crazy. HAHA!

Yeah. I have thought a lot about that. I want to talk to her really badly. See what she knows. And just relate to her.

[WshIKnw]

That's so stupid that W or OM would get mad about you talking to OM's wife. They rejected you two. Idiots.

[Dawgs]

Maybe she will feel more free to discuss what in the actual f--- happened to us, since I will agree to her clause of never being able to sue her or a third party for cheating, if she comes back with what I want from her. I don't want to waste my time on a bunch of lies. She's just like Sandi says. I never knew that girl to lie to me the entire ten years we were together, but once she went cold (I assume cheated), she has been lying left and right, and acting like I'm Hitler.

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

a--hole is two cars ahead of me.

Here is a thought - either man up and confront, or stop worrying about him. Good grief. I told the OM in my case that he could have my wife, but if he ever stepped foot near my kids that I'd break his legs. No joking around. Man up or get out.

So she shouldn't be mad if he calls.

Um, what is the point? Do you think that will drive her back in your arms? If you blow it up, then be prepared for the fallout.

may try that some time, mostly to get out and around people

Good idea. Get out. Stop obsessing on the OM.

[Dawgs]

Also, the OM's now ex-wife and I have become friends and have gone out for drinks on several occasions...something that drives the ex and the OM crazy. HAHA!

Yeah. I have thought a lot about that. I want to talk to her really badly. See what she knows. And just relate to her.

My advice - be careful, if the OM confront, are you prepared to fight?

[Dawgs]

That's so stupid that W or OM would get mad about you talking to OM's wife. They rejected you two. Idiots.

It is. Its a dive into their affair area. Even though my ex and the OM are no longer seeing each other - and quite honestly, he can have her - its almost like its supposed to be off limits...maybe sort of a "friends" area sort of thing. I guess it didn't help, either, that the OM's ex told him that we slept together...

[WshIKnw]

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

She wants me to agree to not ever sue her or a third party in the separation agreement. What's wrong with me signing that, as long as I'm getting what I want in the rest of the deal? I don't see how that would be spineless. I didn't threaten to sue her if she doesn't talk. I said maybe after we have signed the agreement, if it has that clause in it, she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

[Dawgs]

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

She wants me to agree to not ever sue her or a third party in the separation agreement. What's wrong with me signing that, as long as I'm getting what I want in the rest of the deal? I don't see how that would be spineless. I didn't threaten to sue her if she doesn't talk. I said maybe after we have signed the agreement, if it has that clause in it, she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

She came up with that all by herself...you never mentioned anything of the sort? At any rate, it is what it is.

Don't count on her talking.

[WshIKnw]

Why would I want such a clause? I never cheated. It's a common clause, but I was told it's usually only there if there is a reason for it to be.

[KevinIn]

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

She wants me to agree to not ever sue her or a third party in the separation agreement. What's wrong with me signing that, as long as I'm getting what I want in the rest of the deal? I don't see how that would be spineless. I didn't threaten to sue her if she doesn't talk. I said maybe after we have signed the agreement, if it has that clause in it, she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

Mine is going to have the opposite clause - nothing in the separation agreement bars me from going to court for her committing adultery. So, at any point before she files for divorce (12 months of separation in my state), i can divorce her for adultery and take that path to ending our marriage. Not my plan, but good to have just in case.

[MoveFrwd]

she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

Just curious, but what difference does it make? Ill probably never know the details of the R between my ex and the AP, and Im perfectly comfortable with that. It is what it is; prying into the details of that would only cause pain for me.

Please do go out and GAL. You need to work on getting your mind to let go of this sitch for a bit at a time!

[Dawgs]

Why would I want such a clause? I never cheated. It's a common clause, but I was told it's usually only there if there is a reason for it to be.

Common clause? I've never seen or heard of it.

[Dawgs]

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

She wants me to agree to not ever sue her or a third party in the separation agreement. What's wrong with me signing that, as long as I'm getting what I want in the rest of the deal? I don't see how that would be spineless. I didn't threaten to sue her if she doesn't talk. I said maybe after we have signed the agreement, if it has that clause in it, she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

Mine is going to have the opposite clause - nothing in the separation agreement bars me from going to court for her committing adultery. So, at any point before she files for divorce (12 months of separation in my state), i can divorce her for adultery and take that path to ending our marriage. Not my plan, but good to have just in case.

Divorcing for adultery (in at-fault states) and suing over an affair are two different cats.

[25yearsmlc]

What in the actual f***. So, you agree to not "sue" her or someone for something she made a choice in? Good luck with that. Dude, that is spineless...threatening to "sue" if she doesn't talk. How old are you, 10? You ARE acting like "Hitler."

She wants me to agree to not ever sue her or a third party in the separation agreement. What's wrong with me signing that, as long as I'm getting what I want in the rest of the deal? I don't see how that would be spineless. I didn't threaten to sue her if she doesn't talk. I said maybe after we have signed the agreement, if it has that clause in it, she will feel more free to talk to me and tell me the truth about everything that happened.

it's not unusual in a separation agreement to include a ton of boiler plate language. I don't know what state you are in. But every state has no fault grounds.

One thing to know - if you do sue her for A, she may well counter with her own fault grounds in you. Then a whole lot of the money goes to lawyers and gets you nowhere with your w.

My question is what your goal is, now.

And IF you are not talking about a lot of money & assets, then be careful about quibbling.

Most importantly, How do you want to feel about yourself and your conduct, down the road? Do you want to be a man of strength and honor, who handles a heartache with grace,

or a man too angry and petty to dig deep, terrified of looking in the mirror, and who is constantly using a measuring stick to "Win"?

(Oh, btw she has her own measuring tool, and it does not match the measurement tool you have.)

Keep at this. IT does get better.

[Dawgs]

It is what it is; prying into the details of that would only cause pain for me

This. Do you really want to know what happened between them? I have tons of sex-act pictures of the ex and the OM that the OM's wife sent me. Tons. Do you really want to know the details of hers?

You have proof. You don't need anymore. And if you truly aren't a troll, then I don't think you could handle knowing that she did things to him and vice-versa...

Some boxes are best kept closed.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

I don't see the affair lasting very long if he has 4 kids. OM's wife may press things and that can lead to D and that can temporarily push the APs together.

But it's just too much of a leap and chore to instantly become a step mom (as if the kids will welcome her) and his background and faith will not help him seamlessly remarry.

For you, remember -That which we resist, persists. Back off that issue and stay in your sandbox.

You have work to do on you.

How is that going?

[WshIKnw]

25, I figured just accepting her offer that I thought wasn't fair wasn't demanding respect from her. She needs to respect me, doesn't she? I'm also trying to create a loss, and consequences for her actions. Sandi says these are good things, that W has no respect or attraction towards me. And that needs to change.

[WshIKnw]

25, today I made a post about some things I've done, the one taking about the pastor.

[WshIKnw]

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