Previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2731574&page=1I see your frustration and understand why you have so many questions. Many of us on here don't understand how someone you spend over a decade with can just one day decide they don't want to be with you anymore. My W did many things that you are describing as well. She deleted my entire family from her FB, turned cold towards me within a week without warning, gave me no hope that she cared about our past, didn't let me know she was so unhappy and wanted out of the marriage, etc, etc. I know it hurts to think about all the good times in your M and question how she doesn't anymore. My W and I took a trip to New Orleans with friends 3 months prior to her leaving. My W told me that, even though things got better this past year, she still wants a D. You can't explain these actions and if you dwell on them it will drive you insane. I wish I had the answers to all your questions as I was once asking them myself. I do not believe she is giving up on the M so easily. This is something that she has had in the back of her mind for sometime and has finally made the decision to go forward with it. I also understand you questioning the methods you've learned here in regards to "fixing" you MR. However, its not about that as your old MR is over. You can only focus on yourself at this point and do things for yourself. Don't worry so much about what she is doing. Hell, my W is already seeing OM but now it doesn't bother me. If you would have talked to me a few months ago this would have broken my heart. She is not the woman I married anymore and by loving myself I have realized that I don't deserve this because I'm a better person. From what I have learned here I now love myself more than my M or my W. Once you start focusing your attention on yourself you will realize that it will get easier. The pain will never go away, but it will get easier. In time, if you keep practicing what you have learned, your W may come back and then she may not. Hopefully, by then you will have built a strong enough relationship with yourself that whatever happens you will have the tools to make things better than before.
Thank you, SAL27. Very uplifting and motivating.
That's what I've been saying all along. He can't live his life dependent on if she will or won't come back. At some point he is going to have to move on for his own sake.
Let me just re-phrase what you wrote slightly.
He has to keep moving forward.
He will decide when it is time to move on.
Thank you, Cadet. Jeep, you have given a lot of great advice and support that I really appreciate, but sometimes you come across as very pessimistic, like you know she's not coming back, in which case, why does anyone DB at this point in the game, if it were true that we knew what she is going to do? If LITB had given in to pessimism, he would have never likely gotten his wife back. He went down a very long road through h3ll, and came out with his wife. I am in a 1 year separation state, and I've got until the end of December before that time has passed. My wife has been another person lately (since BD), but I remember who she was for those 10 years prior, and how much she loved me, and all that she did for me. She quite literally saved me. And I will take a
beating to get her back, especially when I know I wasn't appreciating her properly and wasn't treating her like a wife needs to be treated.
Moving forward is just what the butterfly analogy is all about. For now, he's squeezing the life out of that butterfly. We've all done it...and I'll be the first to raise my hand. However, if he doesn't open his and release it, it will never come back to alight.
I take that analogy of squeezing the butterfly to mean that I have a grasp on her and won't let her go. I may have an inner/private grasp on her, but I don't have a grasp on her that she feels, because I've been doing NC for at least 2 weeks, and when she contacts me (which is very rarely), I've just acted content and friendly. But yeah, she might not land on my hand again, if I don't also release my inner grip on her, because some how I have to build myself up into something she would want. I have to make some friends and get out of the house and do things. This is all so hard compared to the little bit of effort it would have taken to keep her happy, if I had only understood how badly she needed the things she asked for, but she was so hard to read. It's hard to be motivated to make someone happier, who, in your eyes, appears to already be happy. (sigh)
Sir, since you decided to try to call me out and call me a pessimist, then don't be upset at what I'm about to say.
I'm quite the opposite - but I am a realist. And you, sir, seem to only accept one answer and that is exactly what you want to hear. We've all been there. But you just want sunshine and roses pumped, much less anything else. Maybe crayons and safety pins are in order. I call it like it is...I don't pump sunshine.
I truly hope she does return. But what happens if she doesnt?
WshIKnw,
Bottom line, what you do with your time to get yourself to a healthy place and improve your relationship skills will serve you well in life. To me, a success is someone who saves themselves and leaves this place a better person than when they arrived. That has to happen before you can save your M/R anyway. And then, piecing is a whole other animal.
Qoute: "And I will take a beating to get her back, especially when I know I wasn't appreciating her properly and wasn't treating her like a wife needs to be treated."
Come on man, do you hear yourself? You are in no shape for her to come back right now. If she came back right now, you would be like a whipped dog and so smothering because you would be scared to lose her again, that it wouldn't last. You have to be happy with YOU before you can ever make her happy. Did you read those 2 threads I posted for you earlier? From what I have read, she has treated you like crap over the past few months. Is that really the way you want to live just to be with someone? Read those threads!! You have to be strong and confident. You have to be the man of the relationship! You previously mentioned that you were 'underweight, pale, and skinny' and that attractive people aren't any of these. Do you really think having zero self confidence is going to bring her back? He!! No. I will bet you that if you GAL, for real, that you will notice changes in your situation. Get on tinder, bumble or any app to meet people . It's easy. Your wife wants kids, but do you think she wants to have kids with someone who's b@lls are in her purse and someone she had to take care of? I think not. I think you have a good chance in getting your wife back at some point, but you have to make some major changes. If you are this committed to wandering why, analyzing everything, and beating yourself up, you can be committed to doing the things that are actually going to help you and your situation. I know this is probably harsh, but it's the truth. Not trying to bust your chops at all. Do what people on here are telling you and you will be surprised. You Can Do It!!!!!!
Bottom line, what you do with your time to get yourself to a healthy place and improve your relationship skills will serve you well in life. To me, a success is someone who saves themselves and leaves this place a better person than when they arrived. That has to happen before you can save your M/R anyway. And then, piecing is a whole other animal.
So true! My first post ended by saying I hope I come back here and get to tell my "success story". However, in a few months, my W has already met OM2 so now I am done with my M. So I had posted back that my "success story" is the fact that I have learned and gained so much from the people on this forum and countless articles, that I now feel 100% better about myself and will carry over what I have learned.
Sir, since you decided to try to call me out and call me a pessimist, then don't be upset at what I'm about to say.
I'm quite the opposite - but I am a realist. And you, sir, seem to only accept one answer and that is exactly what you want to hear. We've all been there. But you just want sunshine and roses pumped, much less anything else. Maybe crayons and safety pins are in order. I call it like it is...I don't pump sunshine.
I truly hope she does return. But what happens if she doesnt?
It is very hard to come to the realization that your M is over. Many of us don't ever want to believe it, but you are right...you have to be a realist at some point. I still have my down days and miss my W and who she was. So many things can trigger a great memory we shared and the flood gates of emotions come poring in all over again. At first, I also didn't want to face the fact that my M was over and that no amount of DB'ing would bring her back. It wasn't until I realized that it wasn't about bringing her back, but more about bettering myself, did I truly let go. It hurts, its sad, but there are many stories of people who find themselves back together even after the BD. There are stories of people who go on, get M to others, and yet still find themselves getting back together. Who knows, maybe someday you and your W will get back together. Maybe my W and I will someday get back together. We don't know what the future holds, but you do need someone to help prepare you for the worst possible situation. That way you will have the strength to get through it.
I also hope that WshIKnw's W returns and they find happiness in a new MR! I believe in M and would have never turn my back on my W, but unfortunately it was not my choice. I would say for him to never give up hope, but to stop using DB to help save his M and use it to help save himself.
^^^^^^^^^^^^. Well said, sir.
Sir, since you decided to try to call me out and call me a pessimist, then don't be upset at what I'm about to say.
I didn't mean to offend you, Jeep. I'm sorry. You have a tough love approach, and I thank you for your support.
I truly hope she does return. But what happens if she doesnt?
I have a really hard time thinking about that right now.
I didn't mean to offend you, Jeep. I'm sorry. You have a tough love approach, and I thank you for your support.
Didn't offend me at all. You'll find I'm not easily offended. However, when I'm called out I'll respond. No worries, my friend.
I have a really hard time thinking about that right now.
I can relate. There are things that will always be with me. Always. I lost my wife/best friend/lover after 10 years of marriage...we've been through so much together - deployments, tragedy, etc. And been each other's rock. Divorce just came out of the blue. Totally. But, its done and done and she isn't coming back. I learned that the only way to make the pain and all palatable is to adopt the mindset that she no longer exists. At all. Our only form of communication for most days is a simple "S" when she wants to Skype the kids at night.
So, I can relate where you are coming from. I don't put kid gloves on because that gives false hope. And false hope leads to more than enough pain. Been there, done that.
Come on man, do you hear yourself? You are in no shape for her to come back right now. If she came back right now, you would be like a whipped dog and so smothering because you would be scared to lose her again, that it wouldn't last. You have to be happy with YOU before you can ever make her happy. Did you read those 2 threads I posted for you earlier?
I need to read those. I will open them up to help me remember to read them.
From what I have read, she has treated you like crap over the past few months. Is that really the way you want to live just to be with someone?
You're not getting my threads mixed up with someone else's, are you? How has she treated me like crap? Oh, you mean since she dropped the bomb? I don't want the alien/demon version of her. I want the one of 10 years, that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. She hasn't constantly been mean to me since BD, just at times, especially early on.
Read those threads!! You have to be strong and confident. You have to be the man of the relationship! You previously mentioned that you were 'underweight, pale, and skinny' and that attractive people aren't any of these. Do you really think having zero self confidence is going to bring her back? He!! No. I will bet you that if you GAL, for real, that you will notice changes in your situation. Get on tinder, bumble or any app to meet people . It's easy. Your wife wants kids, but do you think she wants to have kids with someone who's b@lls are in her purse and someone she had to take care of? I think not. I think you have a good chance in getting your wife back at some point, but you have to make some major changes. If you are this committed to wandering why, analyzing everything, and beating yourself up, you can be committed to doing the things that are actually going to help you and your situation. I know this is probably harsh, but it's the truth. Not trying to bust your chops at all. Do what people on here are telling you and you will be surprised. You Can Do It!!!!!!
I thank you for your encouragement and wisdom. I just wonder why she would be with me to begin with if she didn't like skinny, pale, and somewhat lacking confidence. I have always thought that because she was a strong woman, that she liked those traits in me, because she wanted to wear the pants. But lately, she started complaining about my weaknesses. So unfair, man. I think it was mostly my lack of trying that killed it for her, and lack of attention and interest in her. She can't put up with weakness and such AND someone that isn't trying as hard as they used to.
It's pretty easy to lift weights. What's hard for me is to eat, especially in the mornings.
What's hard for me is to eat, especially in the mornings.
At least this is something you can actually FIX.
YOU!
I don't know how to fix a poor appetite. I've always had it. And of course right now it's way worse. Mornings are my hardest part of the day, which you guys may have noticed.
I don't know how to fix a poor appetite. I've always had it. And of course right now it's way worse. Mornings are my hardest part of the day, which you guys may have noticed.
Right after BD, I went from 185 to about 170. Lost a lot of muscle mass because I just quit eating, too, but still tried working out. Eventually, I figured out that behaving like that was counterproductive for my own good health. I couldn't change things I couldn't control, so I just worked on what I could - me. Now, I'm back up to fighting weight and in the best shape of my life. Exercise is by far the SINGLE best antidepressant there is.
Do you work out? If so, make a protein shake/smoothie and hit the gym. Take out your frustrations on the weights, whatever. When I'm feeling particularly bad, I hit the punching bag for a bit. Gives me nothing else to think about but that. And I hit it hard. Lately, I've been pushing myself further than I have in many years.
You'll figure it out.
What's hard for me is to eat, especially in the mornings.
Easy fix - down a substantial protein shake immediately after working out. Have another protein shake first thing in the morning. You need to eat too, but this will at least help some.
I also don't have much of an appetite and have lost weight, but i've been working out too. To keep the muscle and lose the fat, i just make sure to keep up with the protein shakes since i can manage to finish those even when i don't have an appetite.
When I'm feeling particularly bad, I hit the punching bag for a bit. Gives me nothing else to think about but that. And I hit it hard.
I've been punching a bag a lot lately too, and its very therapeutic. I had never been into boxing before wife's BD#1, but now i'm all about punching that bag. Feels good.
I've been punching a bag a lot lately too, and its very therapeutic. I had never been into boxing before wife's BD#1, but now i'm all about punching that bag. Feels good.
Yes, yes it does. May do that today. Yesterday's was a quick 4 mile run followed by 10 sets of 8-count body builders. Good stuff.
So what are the underlying reasons for a loss of appetite.
Stress, anxiety are the two prime candidates, also depression.
All these are things that YOU can work on to FIX.
Don't feel bad - most of us have been on the LBS DIET and
lost lots of weight.
So within this you can establish some goals.
Things you can actually DO without needing a relationship to DO it.
So within this you can establish some goals.
Things you can actually DO without needing a relationship to DO it.
I guess you are referencing the idea that there are a lot of things that the WAS complained about, but only some of them one can actually show improvement on, without the WAS around. Very good point. My appetite, my health, weight, size, looks, etc. are one of the things that I can work on. It's also ironic how some of the things she complained about, I'd absolutely love to give her, in a second, but she won't let me.
The car that has been hanging outside her house in the evenings has been confirmed to belong to the male coworker that I was strongly suspicious of. I'm going to have to call this a confirmed affair, whether just emotional or physical, given all the evidence that I now have. She can try to say they are just friends, but if it's just his car and her car there.. and he is married with 4 kids... When my wife was telling me about this "nice guy" at her new job, with the "terrible wife", and I became concerned about her becoming too friendly with straight males near her age, she said "he's old". At some point (maybe not that same day), I asked "how old?", and she said, "36" -- only 3 years older than me.
Sandi, is my wife a horrible monster, or is she deserving of forgiveness? Can the lying monster, that treated me like I was Satan for being neglectful, ever truly be trusted again? For 10 years, she was a great girl, for all that I know anyway. She had a temper, but I knew her to be of very sound moral character, and to be a mostly compassionate person.
Can the lying monster, that treated me like I was Satan for being neglectful, ever truly be trusted again?
The answer is not right now.
Maybe again in the future but not right now.
Well, now I finally truly know what I'm dealing with and pretty much know what happened, which was what I suspected all along. She was not likely near the end of her rope in our marriage, but she was quite dissatisfied. Still loved me and enjoyed being around me. I really believe that, but could be wrong. But she was vulnerable to falling for other men, because of her dissatisfaction. Now it's time to truly dig into Sandi's information.
Wish
My views are very different for you and your sitch, sort of counter intuitive.
The level of hurt betrayal and pain you feel is affecting you physiologically. You tell us that you have trouble eating and no doubt sleeping and other caring of self.
Unlike others, I do think this isn't easy to fix, you can't force feed yourself breakfast or make your mind still. This indicates trauma to me and distress. I read a little anxiety and perhaps physiological depression. Have you asked your medic? Are you currently having IC?
These things are vital for your wellbeing and you may need a superbetter style of approach. Extreme self care, I really mean extreme. What you eat can be of the highest quality and gradually you can rebuild. Extensive exercise and high protein breakfasts can be for the rugged. This roller coaster is likely to means some days Yes you can and others just washing your face and getting out the door is hard enough.
I am concerned about you and want you to be grounded with a healthy base to operate on. This isn't easy and the path is never a smooth one.
And it's ok, truly it is, you are bang on target for this. There is even a grief cycle to follow, known as the Kubler Ross cycle. This starts after the denial phase is over. It is part of recovery, even if it seems to you this is worse than not knowing then truly is the beginning of healing. Once you know then you will never unknow.
This is the start of repair, gentleness, kindness and extreme self care.
Hugs
V
Do you work out? If so, make a protein shake/smoothie and hit the gym. Take out your frustrations on the weights, whatever. When I'm feeling particularly bad, I hit the punching bag for a bit. Gives me nothing else to think about but that. And I hit it hard. Lately, I've been pushing myself further than I have in many years.
You'll figure it out.
Yeah, I work out, and I've been doing protein shakes. I have a weight set at home that I've been using, and I've been making progress with it, but it's hard to increase my weight from my normal, when I'm not eating enough. Hopefully, I will now that I have some closure on what happened with my W.
I agree with Vanilla. Head to the GP. Medication will not cure bit help.
I suffered from depression all my life. You carry the same brain in the gym.
Mindfullness. Ease your mind. CBT. Don't change what you are thinking.
Change the way you are thinking. Good luck.
WshIKnw,
Please don't gloss over what Vanilla posted to you. She makes some very valid points and I believe she is on to something.
When you get an opportunity, take the time to dig into that post. I think it is that important.
WshIKnw,
Please don't gloss over what Vanilla posted to you. She makes some very valid points and I believe she is on to something.
When you get an opportunity, take the time to dig into that post. I think it is that important.
I can't believe that you guys can sense my hurt and fear in the things I've said. I have felt like I have been keeping it
mostly out of what I type here.
WshIKnw,
Please don't gloss over what Vanilla posted to you. She makes some very valid points and I believe she is on to something.
When you get an opportunity, take the time to dig into that post. I think it is that important.
I can't believe that you guys can sense my hurt and fear in the things I've said. I have felt like I have been keeping it
mostly out of what I type here.
Honey no. It's so clear.
V
Isn't it possible that some women really need their guy to beg them to come back? That they need to feel that they are truly needed? Maybe my wife was with me because she thought I really needed her, and she wanted to save someone. Then maybe, because of my lack of appreciation and attention, she thought that I no longer needed her. I'm so afraid that the DB techniques, though they might work on most, might not on all. My wife might be a very special case. I just hate sitting here not being honest with her, but instead pretending like I'm ok with moving on with or without her. I'm not ok at all with that. And I really wonder whether she needs to know it.
Isn't it possible that some women really need their guy to beg them to come back? That they need to feel that they are truly needed? Maybe my wife was with me because she thought I really needed her, and she wanted to save someone. Then maybe, because of my lack of appreciation and attention, she thought that I no longer needed her. I'm so afraid that the DB techniques, though they might work on most, might not on all. My wife might be a very special case. I just hate sitting here not being honest with her, but instead pretending like I'm ok with moving on with or without her. I'm not ok at all with that. And I really wonder whether she needs to know it.
NO!! !!
WshIKnw,
It is abundantly clear that you are terrified of losing your W. It is also abundantly clear that her actions speak volumes. Her actions say that you have already lost her.
I also realize that you are emotionally fragile. You've shared some of your personal challenges and that's why I think Vanilla's post is important. She asked you a couple of questions that I hope you answer.
There are patterns in your threads. We have tried to hammer home the need for you to work on yourself first. What I take away is that you refuse to listen to our advice, which leads me to believe that you wouldn't listen to your W. Listening is required for any relationship to work. Granted, now I'd be very cautious in listening to her.
That being said, you are having difficulty getting out of your own way. You need to stop the rinse, repeat cycle.
Honestly, it is a concern to your fragile state. I hope that you seek the help and support that you need from more than this board.
It is abundantly clear that you are terrified of losing your W. It is also abundantly clear that her actions speak volumes. Her actions say that you have already lost her.
When you say that I've lost her, are you saying you don't think she's ever going to come back?
I also realize that you are emotionally fragile. You've shared some of your personal challenges and that's why I think Vanilla's post is important. She asked you a couple of questions that I hope you answer.
To answer her questions, I have not gone to see a doctor or to therapy. I discussed with my stepmom, tonight, seeing a therapist that she knows.
There are patterns in your threads. We have tried to hammer home the need for you to work on yourself first. What I take away is that you refuse to listen to our advice, which leads me to believe that you wouldn't listen to your W. Listening is required for any relationship to work. Granted, now I'd be very cautious in listening to her.
That being said, you are having difficulty getting out of your own way. You need to stop the rinse, repeat cycle.
You are very correct. I did not listen to her. *sigh* I did not take her complaints and requests seriously. She always seemed happy to me. It's hard for me to feel very motivated to make someone happier who already seems happy to me. She likes to "fake it until she makes it" and I found it confusing as hell. Combine that with giving no second chances and you have a f***ing recipe for disaster. It makes me so mad. It's so unfair.
I'm becoming less and less hopeful and more and more depressed. So, it's becoming harder and harder to work on me.
Honestly, it is a concern to your fragile state. I hope that you seek the help and support that you need from more than this board.
Getting out of this d4mn house, where everything is a reminder of my wife, helps a lot. I've been seeing my dad and step mom a lot. It helps a ton to get out and be around people. I'm so mad that my wife would do this to me. I wasn't that bad to her. I just treated her like I wanted to be treated, like a man wants to be treated, rather than how she needed to be treated, because I'm just inexperienced. I didn't cheat on her, do drugs, get in trouble, lose my job, make her wonder where I am, gamble or waste money, etc., etc. Women give up so easily, and can't even give any warnings or anything. No ultimatums. No second chances. Just gone.
Like MWD says in the walk-away wife video, inexperienced women think that guys think just like they do. "How could he not see that I was unhappy? I've done everything I could do to get him to change." No you haven't. You could have done so much more to get through to me, so that I would know that you really needed this stuff and that you were slipping away from me. Put on a happy face all the time and keep telling me you love me and you are so glad you have me, and how the h3ll am I supposed to take your occasional complaints seriously?? WTF? It's cruel as f***.
When you say that I've lost her, are you saying you don't think she's ever going to come back?
I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I want to briefly respond to your question. I do not know the answer, nor does anyone else.
It is possible that she returns at some point. Perhaps after you invest in your growth and get yourself to a happy and healthy place. I cannot emphasize that enough. No matter what happens with you and your W, it should be your objective.
I'm trying to change my thoughts and keep depressing songs from playing in my head. This morning, as soon as I woke up, I just laid in bed interrupting all the usual thoughts and songs by singing the first non-depressing song that I could think of, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. I just sing it in my head over and over when the negative thoughts and sad songs come. I think I am being successful with this so far this morning. I also try to think positive thoughts instead, but it's hard when I feel like my positive thoughts are not realistic. And I'm eating now while doing this, which is the most important thing for keeping my depression away. I may leave the house and live with my dad and stepmom for a little while, because being here, especially when alone, and especially in the morning, has gotten to the point where there is a strong pattern of heavy depression when I'm here. Every single thing in this house reminds me of her and my loss.
Wsh,
What do you like to do for fun?
Wsh,
What do you like to do for fun?
I used to be obsessed with programming, figuring out how video games work, and making my own modifications. I worked on bots for a video game. I thought AI was extremely interesting. But now I hate that hobby because it was such a big part of the reason my wife felt neglected. I haven't touched it all, since I first realized that something was very wrong in our relationship (BD). Spending so much time on the computer I feel like has caused me to slowly rot away. My forearms and hands are so skinny. I wish they were as easy to build up as my upper arms. I have no friends, except some online friends, that I'm not very close to. I made one friend, who is recently divorced, who
desperately wanted to hang out with me and talk, but about as soon as I said okay, he started back tracking. Spoke on the phone with him once, and ever since, he's been tapering off his contact. Haven't spoken to him for a week now. I have no idea what happened with him. I don't feel like I was very whiny with him, but I didn't feel like I was very whiny on these forums, but all of you picked up on my desperation. I had everything I felt like I needed, with my wife. I had her, my best friend and lover, a great job with great income, a great house to live in, a great family, hobbies that I enjoyed too much, and a dog, and plans to have a family with her very soon. I felt like I had it all. I feel like when I lost her, about 60% of the good things in my life were lost. Now I'm trying to make friends, but I feel like I'm right back in those shoes I was in before I met my wife. I feel like there is something about me that makes me undesirable not only to ladies but to male friends. Maybe people are afraid I will bring them down. I think I could improve all of this if I got out in the sun more and exercised, lifted weights, and ate more, but it's the eating more that's so hard. I think if I could put on weight, it would greatly increase my confidence and happiness and physical attractiveness, and people would then want to be around me, especially if I cut my hair, perhaps. But I've always had such a poor appetite. It might be because I spend so much time on the computer. Now, instead of working on hobbies or having fun, I'm on the computer reading about my situation or typing posts on this forum. I also spend a large amount of time venting to my parents. Sometimes I type letters to my wife, but I pretty much never send them to her these days. It's hard to GAL when you have no friends. I have co-workers that I get along with great, but I don't feel like we would enjoy each other's company outside of work. I have long felt a lack of connection with most people in the world. But I felt like I had such a strong connection with my wife. I had so many of my eggs in her basket. She has truly devastated me by leaving me, and it makes me wonder whether she gives a d4mn about what happens to me at all. She really hardened her heart when she started going cold. She almost overnight went from a loving wife and friend to a bitter hateful demon. She made herself hate me. It was the only way she could deal with what she was doing. I can't believe she did it. Never saw this coming in a million years. It's so messed up.
I'm now trying to find other things to do for fun, Jeep. It's hard to get out when you have to go alone. A male co-worker around my age spent like a half hour the other day giving me all this great advice about how to get out and get a life, but he never really offered to do it with me, except once, kind of begrudgingly, "I could even take you out in my boat," after he spent minutes telling me I could go places by myself, like to bars, and just sit down and start talking to people. It felt like, "here's what you need to do, but don't look at me to do these things with you."
You can't do anything about your hands, but like other muscle groups your forearms can be worked. However, as you are well aware, it takes some eating to put on muscle along with harder than average work in the gym. When I was in the middle of all this crap I lost roughly 20 lbs - down to 160 something, and on a six foot frame, that's very noticeable. I was just like you. Just like you. It took a veritable hammer to bring me out of it...then I got mad and hit the weights harder than in a long time, and ate better, too. You'll find that a little bit of anger can help. haha.
That's an interesting hobby you have - but I'm on the opposite end of the gaming...I'll think nothing of logging on late nights and doing some MW or CoD. But, like you, I kind of lost interest in my hobbies, too. One of mine was building plastic and flying airplanes and all. Lately, I've gotten back into building them and also wooden ships...since I'm a perfectionist, I find it forces me to not think about other things.
I'm going to be honest like the others on here have said - even though you don't think you came across as desperate or whiney, you have...BUT, that's completely normal. We all have been there. All of us. And sometimes I find that its not that hard for her to drag me down into her pit again. Ugh.
Wsh, you are in a great group of people who want nothing more than to help you. Understand that. We all have been exactly where you are. ALL OF US.
Now, first things first. Get a haircut. Eat. Go to the gym or a nice long run. Do something out of the ordinary for you. Try to talk to someone without mentioning your situation in any form. Skydive. Whatever. Just do whatever.
It seems like, by far, most people here weren't successful (at least not before divorce) in reconciling. I know DB is more about knowing what doesn't work, according to MWD, but how do we know that DB works? It would need to have a higher success rate than the total percentage of people that successfully saved their marriages, including all those that did and all those that didn't use DB techniques, right? The success rate of DBers should be higher than that, right? Do we have statistics that show this?
It's more about helping you get to the place you need to be - about helping you stand on your own two feet. You are right, the majority here don't get the ending they want. The key is becoming the best you can so that if the marriage returns or for new relationships, one is able to go in them stronger and better than the were before.
Hello Wsh -
I think it was your post on the merits of DB and wondering if it 'works'. It looks like that post was deleted as I was adding to it.
My comments are as follows:
For me, I didnt come across DB until after I was separated and my ex was already in an affair. How many of those cases turn around anyway? My odds were extremely low from the outset. And now my ex is married to the AP.
So, did DB 'work' to save my marriage? Well, obviously not. Would anything have? I highly doubt it.
BUT, DB did force me to look at myself and figure out how to get out of the pit I had dug for myself. It gave me the knowledge about how to rebuild myself into a stronger, more resilient, better equipped person which has made me a better parent, friend, and partner. My new relationship is much stronger because of DB.
My ex's choices arent the fault of DB. I consider my story a success even if my marriage was not saved.
If that wasnt your post, Im sorry!
I think it was your post on the merits of DB and wondering if it 'works'. It looks like that post was deleted as I was adding to it.
NO - it was not deleted it was added into his personal thread and you can read it above.
Wsh and Kaizen,
I, too, am reading a lot of posts and wondering if this DB'ing isn't for people who want to get through their D in the most healthy, amicable way....
I don't want a divorce. My husband moved out a month ago. He is not seeing anyone, told me no interest. We have an 8 yr son. My H is 47; I am 49. From what I've read he is going thru MLC and he told me he needs to "step away from the marriage and the swirl of it all" to figure out things.
It is very scary to me. I do consider this a gift and it is very possible the best thing to happen to our marriage. I have been given a wake up call. He has time to get his priorities figured out. If his priorities don't include me and our son, then at least I can march on with my independence, strength and confidence and be able to take care of my son.
My intention and commitment is for the successful reconciliation and a newly built marriage with my H. The DB'ing strategies are different than what I'd do. I'd normally continue to be the best wife and person I can be to my husband, even in the face of his rejection. DB'ing suggests I pull way back and give him little to no contact except for our son's consideration.
I'm lost and need to wrap my head around how I should proceed in allowing my H room and space, but continuing to hold his attention.
Please offer your input. It would be so very appreciated!
Thank you!
Well, love1st, I'm about the most lost and unsure person there is on this board. So, I can only say that I feel for you, because I'm grappling with the same thing that you are.
It is very scary to me. I do consider this a gift and it is very possible the best thing to happen to our marriage. I have been given a wake up call. He has time to get his priorities figured out. If his priorities don't include me and our son, then at least I can march on with my independence, strength and confidence and be able to take care of my son.
This is one of the scariest, and hardest, things we will ever go through. The fact that he moved out is very concerning and you have been given the gift of time to become the strongest and best love1st that you can be, for both you and your son.
Why did you say "his priorities don't include me and my son?" Has he ever made any inference that his son isn't his priority? He may have left you and the marriage, but not his son...there is a difference.
I'm lost and need to wrap my head around how I should proceed in allowing my H room and space, but continuing to hold his attention.
I've seen some say that the best thing you can do is just pretend he doesn't exist. Trying to hold his attention is akin to pursuing...honestly, he may even not want you to try. As hard as it is, the best thing you can do is let him be. The butterfly analogy works well here: squeeze too hard and you will kill the butterfly every time...open your hand and let it fly away. If it chooses to return and alight in your open hand, then there is your answer. But, you have to hold you hand open and give it the choice...and trying to hold his attention is more like squeezing that butterfly.
It seems like, by far, most people here weren't successful (at least not before divorce) in reconciling. I know DB is more about knowing what doesn't work, according to MWD, but how do we know that DB works? It would need to have a higher success rate than the total percentage of people that successfully saved their marriages, including all those that did and all those that didn't use DB techniques, right? The success rate of DBers should be higher than that, right? Do we have statistics that show this?
DB'ing works!
Success can be defined many different ways.
I know you are defining it as your marriage is recovered.
Sadly not all marriages recover.
However I can say that whether your marriage recovers or not
you can define success as YOU recovering.
If you follow what you learn here YOU will recover.
When people wash up here on our shores their marriages
are likely over already.
So part of DB is to learn how to fix ourselves and how to build a new marriage/relationship.
No matter what you will need to be able to do that in the future.
You can only look forward,
you can not look backwards and try to change the past.
Learn from the past but accept it and keep moving forward.
Those that try to sweep all of this under the rug and run away from it all
are doomed to continue to repeat their history over and over until they get it right.
Second marriages fail at an even greater rate than first marriages.
How do you beat those statistics.
Learn to DB.
My .02
It's too easy for people to give up and get out of marriages. They don't take the vows seriously.
It's too easy for people to give up and get out of marriages. They don't take the vows seriously.
I agree. And I also disagree.
I do think that it's too easy. Where I am, either spouse can walk into a courthouse for any reason, file for divorce and it will be granted. That said, I wouldnt want my spouse to stay in the marriage because of an obligation from the legal system. We were married for 6 months while separated and Im guessing almost every night was spent with the AP. At that point, what difference did it make if we were legally married or not?
So, where does the fault lie? In some aspects, I think it was with me - my ex and I got together while my ex was still in a relationship with another person. Maybe I should have known then what I was getting into? I expect that next marriage will be my last based on what I now value in a partner and the knowledge Ive gained through DB to be a good partner.
My wife and I were still getting along very well, having sex regularly, spending time together, and so on. Then she just left. It was too easy for her to give up.
She gave up long before that.
I don't think so. I think she was lured away by OM. The marriage was in its 7th year, at the worst it had been, but still not bad. She still talked of having kids during the summer, wrote me very nice cards, and worked on things like painting the deck, the month before she got fed up. She didn't entirely get fed up, though. Someone at work lured her away. It's a lot easier to "get fed up" when there is something pulling you away. So she grasped at all kinds of stupid reasons to leave me, the first being that I slept too late in the mornings during our anniversary trip. She couldn't tell me until it was done and I couldn't do anything about it. She admitted herself that before she started that job in the summer, it was like she was on an island, not realizing there were all these other islands around her with all these great possibilities. She saw the things other couples had and wanted those things. The coworker OM, with a wife and 4 kids, now visits her some nights at her new place. Completely savory visits? Yeah, right? And I have plenty of evidence that before she left me she was into him. She didn't give up a long time ago. She went wayward some time in the Fall, likely around the time she went cold.
. Someone at work lured her away
Wouldn't have happened if things were solid. We - along with others - have had this discussion before in your previous thread. Nice cards? I can show you some very, very nice cards given to me less than a month before BD whilst she was in the midst of her affair. But we won't rehash all of that again. The thing is, the seeds of doubt were there long before, and are exemplified in her having those thoughts over the years. Happy/committed people don't have those thoughts.
Not trying to bust your chops, my friend. It is what it is. The important thing is for you to stop trying to figure out the whys and what-fors, and concentrate on yourself...and yourself only. Regardless of when the trigger was pulled, the round was loaded long before that.
WSH,
I don't post much in this section as well, it makes me sad. First, I am so sorry that you find yourself here. It is a terrible, difficult thing to go through. However, if you are willing to really listen and step back, you will find this board amazing. Hence, why I am still here 3 years later. You are also receiving stellar advice. We all like to think we married the special unicorn and our situation is different. I know I did. I can be super stubborn and I remember thinking, "these peeps are crazy! X Mr. GB told me he loved me before BD and during so we will just work through this." That wasn't the case, however, I am most grateful I found these boards a few days after BD. Why? Because they have helped me in so many, many ways. These situations all have unique elements, and are essentially all reading from the same script. In the words of Mrs. Blockhead from Charlie Brown, "mwak, mwak, mwak."
I apologize in advance if I sound snarky or rude. I occasionally write stream of conscious so I certainly have been in your shoes as we all have. Your wife left before BD-she just finally decided to let you know. I also don't buy the term "lured away>" Your wife is a grown up and apparently made her own decisions. And as some wise DBer posted, her actions tell you that she wanted to be away from you.
Is there hope? Of course there is. I believe 18% of people who divorce remarry. I know you aren't D'd but just giving a bit of perspective. For all intents and purposes, let's just say she is gone. Because regardless of what happens, the old M as you knew it is kaput. I know you want your wife. However, it appears she is wanting something else right now. Sooooooo, what should you do to make your life better? Because maybe she comes back and maybe she doesn't. Or maybe she come back 15 years from now. You need to live in the interim and live well I suggest.
You aren't being dishonest by living your life. I have 3 kids under 13 so I understand that friends change in life. What is something you have always wanted to do? I am rather outgoing so going somewhere by myself is actually rather "freeing." I have my kids about 90% of the time and I enjoy them immensely. However, I do need to recharge to be a good mom, friend, and human being.
You may never figure out the whys. I fully relate to that feeling. However, there will come a day for you (I hope) that you say, "I did the best I could with the tools I had and so did she. I don't know why x happened, but it happened." And realize you can't control the outcome. We have so little control over anything in our lives except how we react and interact with others.
Hang in there.
. Someone at work lured her away
Wouldn't have happened if things were solid. We - along with others - have had this discussion before in your previous thread.
Certainly wouldn't have happened if things were solid. That's where I blame myself so much. I had gotten slack with nurturing the relationship. I was just so comfortable in the marriage and thought we were soul mates and she would never go anywhere. I was treating her the I wanted to be treated, rather than how a wife needs to be treated. Sadly, I learned a hard lesson that the Golden Rule doesn't always work. But I do not believe that things were that bad when she went wayward. She was just in a vulnerable state due to my neglect.
Jeep74,
Thank you very much for responding!! I feel heard.
I'd really like your take on what the difference is in leaving me but not our son. Here is mine: He not only left me, he also left my son. It is incredible to me that someone who leaves the family unit tells themselves that they are leaving the spouse and not the child(ren). Yes, by the very fact that my H is no longer here when our son gets home from school, homework, dinner, goes to bed routine and then gets up for school routine. My H has left our son as well. My H has only attended our son's "fun" activities since he moved out - he'll attend basketball games and karate lessons. We have agreed on every other weekend, our son sleeps over at H's apt. That is down from every night of the week when my H and my son's daddy was here and available - to now 4 nights a month they spend together! So, yes, my H has left both me and our son. My son now has a part-time daddy in time and availability. That is no joke - so anyone who wants to kid themselves otherwise, needs to get real in the eyes of the child.
I am such a tremendous stand for marriage and working together as a couple, through good and bad - (unless abuse is involved). I'm going to post my story in a separate thread and hopefully, you'll see it and post a respond to that, too.
Again, thank you very much! I'm looking forward to hearing your take on the difference.
WshIKnw,
Man, I've been in your shoes. And part of me will always be. You are in the "its my fault" mode, which is evident in all your writings.
But I do not believe that things were that bad when she went wayward. She was just in a vulnerable state due to my neglect.
2x4 [ON] OFF
Just because you don't believe things weren't bad, doesn't mean they were the same in her mind. You can't mind read. You are living in this "if I had done this, if I had done that" mode, and quite frankly, its making you crazy. People don't go wayward when things are good in the marriage. This "vulnerable state" is pure BS. As GeorgiaBell said, she is an adult and made a well-thought out decision. Now, with that said, do you have any part in the demise? Of course you do, it takes two to tango. But, your actions DID NOT drive her into the arms of another. I'd be willing to bet that she suggested as much, no? Pull up your big boy pants and take care of Wsh.
She may/may not come back. But one thing is for sure, she won't if this line of behavior continues.
2x4 ON [OFF]
No offense, my friend. Just telling like it is. And, no, its not a pessimistic view.
My wife and I were still getting along very well, having sex regularly, spending time together, and so on. Then she just left. It was too easy for her to give up.
I admit I havent read everything in your threads. In starting back from the beginning, I noticed this excerpt. Please see my comments below:
She left on December 28th. A few days later, she wrote me a long email, a massive list of 17 general things that she complained about.
In reading through this, there is a lot that made you seem like a child to her and not a partner. For example:- laziness about helping with chores
- too much time on the computer
- lack of life skills, like cooking;
- unreliability/lateness;
- said I was weak physically and mentally and whiny;
Then, on top of that, it sounds like in addition to not feeling like equals, it sounds like she felt that you believed her to be inferior. For example:- complained that I was sort of mean about her appearance in that I didn't show enough sexual interest in her
- she said I didn't want her to think much of herself
- she complained of lack of sex
To me, though, this quote of yours really sums it up:That told me that she had done a lot of looking for things about me to hate to help her build up her wall of hate.
My advice to you would be to start over with a Beginner's Mind as it says in DR. Relook at your situation through your wife's eyes. Relook at yourself from that viewpoint. To me, it sounds like you have a lot of work to do on yourself before your relationship could be successful anyway.
Hi love1st,
I'd really like your take on what the difference is in leaving me but not our son. Here is mine: He not only left me, he also left my son. It is incredible to me that someone who leaves the family unit tells themselves that they are leaving the spouse and not the child(ren). Yes, by the very fact that my H is no longer here when our son gets home from school, homework, dinner, goes to bed routine and then gets up for school routine. My H has left our son as well. My H has only attended our son's "fun" activities since he moved out - he'll attend basketball games and karate lessons. We have agreed on every other weekend, our son sleeps over at H's apt. That is down from every night of the week when my H and my son's daddy was here and available - to now 4 nights a month they spend together! So, yes, my H has left both me and our son. My son now has a part-time daddy in time and availability. That is no joke - so anyone who wants to kid themselves otherwise, needs to get real in the eyes of the child.
I get what you are saying, mine did the same thing. But you have to take it out of the context of the family unit. If his love and involvement with his son is evident, then what he left was you, not his son. I apologize if it was misunderstood...the thing is, even though he (for now) no longer wants to be married doesn't mean his love for his son is any less.
I know how you feel. I struggle with this crap every day...my ex told me this was the most selfish thing she had ever done, and she's correct. She destroyed two families with her affair...and she destroyed the best part of me, too. I'm not sure I'll ever get past the things I've seen/heard/read. But, I digress, even though she is a total failure of a wife and family unit, she still does love the kids and I will give that to her. She left, yes. She left not only me, but the family unit. However, she didn't abandon the kids. That's the difference - as much as I don't like it, that is the other side of the coin.
I am such a tremendous stand for marriage and working together as a couple, through good and bad - (unless abuse is involved). I'm going to post my story in a separate thread and hopefully, you'll see it and post a respond to that, too.
I agree 100%. I don't believe in divorce at all - unless abuse, etc. In my case, my ex not only had an affair but made some very poor choices. My story is elsewhere if you can find it.
I'll be glad to weigh in - I find that posting in other threads to be tremendously helpful to me - although I'm not sure how good my help will be.
Jeep74,
Thank you very much for responding!! I feel heard.
I'd really like your take on what the difference is in leaving me but not our son. Here is mine: He not only left me, he also left my son. It is incredible to me that someone who leaves the family unit tells themselves that they are leaving the spouse and not the child(ren). Yes, by the very fact that my H is no longer here when our son gets home from school, homework, dinner, goes to bed routine and then gets up for school routine. My H has left our son as well. My H has only attended our son's "fun" activities since he moved out - he'll attend basketball games and karate lessons. We have agreed on every other weekend, our son sleeps over at H's apt. That is down from every night of the week when my H and my son's daddy was here and available - to now 4 nights a month they spend together! So, yes, my H has left both me and our son. My son now has a part-time daddy in time and availability. That is no joke - so anyone who wants to kid themselves otherwise, needs to get real in the eyes of the child.
I am such a tremendous stand for marriage and working together as a couple, through good and bad - (unless abuse is involved). I'm going to post my story in a separate thread and hopefully, you'll see it and post a respond to that, too.
Again, thank you very much! I'm looking forward to hearing your take on the difference.
Love1st - Id recommend you start your own thread and more people will be able to listen and support you.
She may/may not come back. But one thing is for sure, she won't if this line of behavior continue.
I'm sorry, Jeep, but what behavior, exactly? Me taking the blame for not nurturing her love meters?
. Someone at work lured her away
Wouldn't have happened if things were solid. We - along with others - have had this discussion before in your previous thread. Nice cards? I can show you some very, very nice cards given to me less than a month before BD whilst she was in the midst of her affair. But we won't rehash all of that again. The thing is, the seeds of doubt were there long before, and are exemplified in her having those thoughts over the years. Happy/committed people don't have those thoughts.
Not trying to bust your chops, my friend. It is what it is. The important thing is for you to stop trying to figure out the whys and what-fors, and concentrate on yourself...and yourself only. Regardless of when the trigger was pulled, the round was loaded long before that.
Let's rehash it. My WW wrote me a lovely valentine's card saying what a sexy man I was. While she is currently having an EA that she refuses to give up and sleeps in a different room. And I continue to enable because I stubbornly refuse to believe in my heart what my head tells me is true, and what others on this forum are virtually screaming at me to do.
As Jeep says, the focus must be on yourself. The more I examine myself, the more it scares me how much there is to work on. The key is not to get crippled into paralysis by the sheer amount of work to do and the emotional rollercoaster. Eat that elephant one bite sized chunk at a time.
Wsh,
These two things stand out to me the most from Kaizen's reply:
said I was weak physically and mentally and whiny
and
she said I didn't want her to think much of herself
There is no easy way to say this, so I'll just leave it here - the first speaks volumes; and the second part seems to be very controlling in nature.
I would say that if you can get the first part under control and re-gain that physical/mental strength, then maybe you can get to where you need to be - for whatever new relationships you will enter in the future. Right now, the unfortunate truth is that there isn't much respect.
For her to say that you didn't want her to think much of herself screams controlling - why would she say that? You were mean about her appearance - did you talk down on her or call her names? If so, then that suggests a whole different ballgame.
Take care of yourself first, Wsh. You have a long road ahead of you. We are here for you, my friend.
My advice to you would be to start over with a Beginner's Mind as it says in DR. Relook at your situation through your wife's eyes. Relook at yourself from that viewpoint. To me, it sounds like you have a lot of work to do on yourself before your relationship could be successful anyway.
You are preaching to the choir, but I appreciate your input. I have taken most of the blame for this, and my only complaint about her is that she hid her feelings, making it very hard for me to know there was a serious problem, and didn't try hard enough to make the marriage work. No second chances, no MC, no stern warnings that she was nearing the end of her rope, just all of a sudden had an epiphany, and went cold for a few weeks and then left. I have been accused numerous times of being too nice to her and taking too much of the blame. All that I have said is that after she went cold, her complaints became exaggerated, and a few of them were ridiculous. I have always stated that I was guilty of most of the things she complained about. I have also always stated that I never did anything serious like cheat on her or become an alcoholic or get in trouble or lose my good job.
WSH,
I am going to go out on a limb and assume you apologized to your wife. Now, actions speak louder than words. No, I don't mean trying to do the sexay times with her or try to win her over.
I am a woman and there are certainly qualities some women universally find appealing. Women generally leave when they are done. That doesn't mean they don't come back or ever reconcile. However, what kind of man do you want to be? Look, we all contributed to the demise of our Rs. I was a great friend, fantastic partner, and a not so great wife. I know that. So moving forward whether it was x Mr. GB or someone else, if I wanted to be in a R, what did I want to be in that R. But first, I needed to regain my identity. I didn't evn know divorce was an option. There are always options. I had no clue. My xh parents have been married 49 years and mine were married 51. I had to google divorce and I'm a pretty smart chick:) I was slapped in the face. And then I had to work on me because I had this thing called life to live. Who am I? What did I really want? And I can assure you that with the passage of time, I discovered some very painful truths about myself. However, there are also things about myself I really like. What about you? What do you like? What needs some work? What do you want? And I am not asking from a list from your wife. Let's leave her out of the equation for a moment.
And there are things you will learn along the way..some good and some bad.
I have taken most of the blame for this, and my only complaint about her is that she hid her feelings, making it very hard for me to know there was a serious problem, and didn't try hard enough to make the marriage work. No second chances, no MC, no stern warnings that she was nearing the end of her rope, just all of a sudden had an epiphany, and went cold for a few weeks and then left.
That is a very, very common theme here. While you are responsible for part of it, you aren't for all of it or even most of it. She didn't let you know. She should have, but she didn't. People work things different ways, my friend. Doesn't matter why anymore. It's done. There is no going back. But there was no "all of a sudden epiphany." Do you really think she felt within a week or two or three that she just had the bright idea to end it?
What's best for you? Whatever it takes for you to get stronger. Period.
However, first and foremost you need to realize you aren't to blame...unless you were mentally/physically/verbally abusive. Then that is whole different kettle of fish.
Take care of yourself first, Wsh. You have a long road ahead of you. We are here for you, my friend.
Agreed. We have all been, or going, through the same thing you are and there is some sound advice in these forums. Nobody here wanted a D and if we all could change our pasts we most likely would. For me, DB isn't about saving my marriage anymore. It is about saving myself. My M is over, and was over before I found this site, but I am still here so I need to learn how to stand up tall and move forward. Believe me, its the hardest thing you will ever face but you will get through this my friend.
[quote=WshIKnw
You are preaching to the choir, but I appreciate your input. I have taken most of the blame for this, and my only complaint about her is that she hid her feelings, making it very hard for me to know there was a serious problem, and didn't try hard enough to make the marriage work. No second chances, no MC, no stern warnings that she was nearing the end of her rope, just all of a sudden had an epiphany, and went cold for a few weeks and then left. I have been accused numerous times of being too nice to her and taking too much of the blame. All that I have said is that after she went cold, her complaints became exaggerated, and a few of them were ridiculous. I have always stated that I was guilty of most of the things she complained about. I have also always stated that I never did anything serious like cheat on her or become an alcoholic or get in trouble or lose my good job. [/quote]
Have you read the 5 Love Languages? It could be that you were on completely different wavelengths in terms of your love needs. As has been said, this will have been building up for some time, and it takes 2 to communicate openly.
At the minute, it's not about blame. It's about finding out how to be the best you, whatever the future holds.
My advice to you would be to start over with a Beginner's Mind as it says in DR. Relook at your situation through your wife's eyes. Relook at yourself from that viewpoint. To me, it sounds like you have a lot of work to do on yourself before your relationship could be successful anyway.
You are preaching to the choir, but I appreciate your input. I have taken most of the blame for this, and my only complaint about her is that she hid her feelings, making it very hard for me to know there was a serious problem, and didn't try hard enough to make the marriage work. No second chances, no MC, no stern warnings that she was nearing the end of her rope, just all of a sudden had an epiphany, and went cold for a few weeks and then left. I have been accused numerous times of being too nice to her and taking too much of the blame. All that I have said is that after she went cold, her complaints became exaggerated, and a few of them were ridiculous. I have always stated that I was guilty of most of the things she complained about. I have also always stated that I never did anything serious like cheat on her or become an alcoholic or get in trouble or lose my good job.
Ditto for me.
Have you been listening to my conversations? Seriously the same thing with me.
As mentioned many times on these boards, the WAWs are all reading from the same script.
For her to say that you didn't want her to think much of herself screams controlling - why would she say that? You were mean about her appearance - did you talk down on her or call her names? If so, then that suggests a whole different ballgame.
I wasn't controlling at all. I was the submissive spouse. I would complain about things and argue with her, though, but rarely did I tell her "no". I also rarely asked her for anything. I used to tell her every now and then that it must be nice not having a spouse hounding you for stuff. I was telling you what my wife said. You kind of jumped to believe her. She said I didn't want her to think much of herself, referring to me complaining to her when she would compliment herself. I would also complain when I would compliment her, and she would respond with a "mmhmm", like saying "I know". I didn't talk down to her about her appearance or call her names. Our relationship was way better than that. I made the mistake of honestly answering questions about how she looked. Though I did try to be very sweet about it. I should have just not been honest at all, unless it was a good thing I was telling her.
"You didn't want her to think much of herself"
Think about that for a minute. Not your defensive explanation. But just think about that.
[my ex told me this was the most selfish thing she had ever done, and she's correct.]
OH - YES, YES, YES!! Jeep74, you gave me the biggest laugh of my day!!! Your quote above is EXACTLY what my H said to me! Verbatim. SOOOO FUNNY!! Is there a WAS manual somewhere I don't know of!?!?
Is there a WAS manual somewhere I don't know of!?!?
Yup - the 1,665,877 posts that are on DB when you get done reading them all you will GET IT!
[my ex told me this was the most selfish thing she had ever done, and she's correct.]
OH - YES, YES, YES!! Jeep74, you gave me the biggest laugh of my day!!! Your quote above is EXACTLY what my H said to me! Verbatim. SOOOO FUNNY!! Is there a WAS manual somewhere I don't know of!?!?
Haha. Crazy, eh?
"You didn't want her to think much of herself"
Think about that for a minute. Not your defensive explanation. But just think about that.
What am I thinking about??? How is my explanation defensive? Why are you now defending my wife? Are you OM? I wanted her to think very highly of herself, just not compliment herself. I find boastful people to be obnoxious and rude. Why are you so on my case?
Dude, stop and step off the ledge. Am I on your case because I don't tell you what you want to hear?
Where did I defend her? Please explain, sir.
"You didn't want her to think much of herself"
Think about that for a minute. Not your defensive explanation. But just think about that.
What am I thinking about???
How is my explanation defensive? Why are you now defending my wife? Are you OM? I wanted her to think very highly of herself, just not compliment herself. I find boastful people to be obnoxious and rude. Why are you so on my case?
Wsh -
I notice in a lot of your posts there's a "yeah, but" to them. Here's the thing, if your wife felt it, then it was real TO HER. Theres nobody 'defending' her, instead, what Jeep was trying to do was for you to look at those words from your wife's point of view. You say "i didnt mean this or that" or "It wasnt in that way" or whatever. But like I said before, I think you need to look at things from a different perspective.
If your wife felt demeaned, then you were demeaning. It doesnt matter what your intent may have been.
Now, going forward, it isnt about what you say to her. It isnt about taking blame. It isnt about apologizing.
It's about BEING THE CHANGE. How can you take the valuable information that she gave you and mold yourself into the man you want to be? Im not saying every item on her list has merit. I am saying that you need to filter it so that you can set goals for yourself to make personal change.
Sandi, is my wife a horrible monster, or is she deserving of forgiveness? Can the lying monster, that treated me like I was Satan for being neglectful, ever truly be trusted again? For 10 years, she was a great girl, for all that I know anyway. She had a temper, but I knew her to be of very sound moral character, and to be a mostly compassionate person.
It takes me way too many words to
thoroughly answer your first question. I'll try to shorten it. If you see an untrustworthy and immoral character in your W, then you can't really rely upon the pursuing/coaxing/persuading techniques that your hurting heart pleads for you to do. If she is a wayward, then that means she has lost respect and harbors a lot of resentment toward her H. It doesn't usually happen all at once, but over time there were unresolved/disappointed issues pushed down into her heart. She either failed to communicate it, or you failed to hear it
or didn't know what to do about it. Eventually, the resentment takes root and grows into feelings of disrespect for her H. By the time the bomb drops, she is acting out in rebellion toward her H/MR.
She is not that sweet girl you married. You can grieve for that girl, but you cannot treat this woman as though she is that sweet girl you married. In order to draw this woman into a MR with you, she must feel respect for you as a man/husband. Until she really respects you, she can't feel authentic love that a woman has for her H. That's one of the differences in men & women. The woman's desire/love is tied to her level of respect for the man. This is why a wayward wife will often say in the BD, "I love you but I'm not
in love with you". At best, she puts him in the friend zone that guarantees nothing deeper in that relationship. She no longer has that type of feelings for him, and until she respects him......it isn't going to happen.
Is she a monster? She can often act like one. Can she change? Absolutely! However, it often takes a lot of work on her heart/attitude/mind-set. It's not something most people look forward to doing. WW's think it's easier to just start a new relationship with a new person, rather than doing the hard work on their M.
FWIW, you have received advice to help boost you on your way of reinventing yourself. I want to encourage you to watch youtube or join classes or read pertinent books..... whatever it takes to give yourself a balanced, fulfilled life. You put everything into your wife! She could have felt responsible for your happiness, b/c you had no social life, no friends, no activities......just her. That's a lot for one 30 yr old woman to carry. She can't respect a man who is so emotionally dependent upon her. That is the situation you have put
yourself. You were content to stay in your cocoon. It will take
you to get out of it. No blame on anyone else. Nobody is responsible for your happiness, but you.
FWIW, you are not responsible for her decisions. You both failed at something at some time.
Does she deserve forgiveness? How does a person
deserve forgiveness? They can't work for it, b/c then forgiveness would be wages earned. Forgiveness is an act of grace. Currently, she doesn't even want your forgiveness. Until she feels remorse, she probably won't seek forgiveness. So, don't send her a letter expressing how you forgive her! Right now, you cannot trust yourself to talk with her about anything like this.....b/c you are still looking for the magic bullet, and there isn't one. Give yourself time to experience the emotional stages of the LBS.
Trust is another issue. After betrayal, trust has to be earned.
The wayward spouse should put forth effort to gladly
prove they can be trusted again.
I believe it's possible for this M to be saved! I think a lot will be determined in how well you drop the emotional you have tied around her.......and how well she sees you being a strong, confident, man that she has lost.
^^^^ Very well put Sandi2
I believe it's possible for this M to be saved! I think a lot will be determined in how well you drop the emotional you have tied around her.......and how well she sees you being a strong, confident, man that she has lost.
Wanted to follow up on this. If there is OM and her family is also against him then how will she even recognize any positive changes in him? Even if she does then would she even care? Better yet, would she even care enough to want to return and work on the M? Yes, self improvement is what needs to happen and I agree that he needs to release the emotional attachments he has on her. However, not for the M, but for himself in case she doesn't find her way back.
Possibly the clues of respect is found within OM.
What the OM provides are the areas of respect? My Ws first reaction about OM to be was he is a man who is in her life more. His attitude towards his daughter, his works in art and dance, his academic career, his caring attitude,his smartness and emotional intelligence, his ideas. For some of these I think I gained her respect back but she is always expecting more and her heart is broken. She talked about those to me. So yeah as in the rules, you try to match up but dont make it look odd. And of course one more thing same job. I have to say W quit from that job. But didn't cut contact with OM. She really wanted to be away. Hey same office. work environment brings respect.
Thank you, Sandi. I will read over this several times. I want to note that at one point, you made it sound like I was very dependent on her. I don't know whether you meant to, but she was actually the very dependent, needy one, always pulling on me for stuff, which is how I was able to be the neglectful one. However, I was dependent in a different sense. I had so many eggs in her basket, by having no friends. So, that made me very vulnerable to having a lot of loss when she left. Whereas, she has like 10 good friends or more. I was an introverted hobbyist. She also very likely set herself up to have a replacement before she dumped me, so she's probably not very lonely, unless she p!ssed off a lot of her acquaintances by perhaps cheating on me and then dumping me for Mr. Perfect. I don't know. None of them will hardly talk to me, and now I can barely get my wife to say anything to me either. Is there any sort of time frame to this? My wife keeps gradually doing things toward breakup. Her latest thing has been to talk to me and visit me much less. I don't know whether her lawyer has advised her to do that. How long does it tend to take a heart to soften, if it's going to soften?
How long does it tend to take a heart to soften, if it's going to soften?
I was wondering the same thing for the past 3 months. Then it happened last Sunday, when I threw her for a loop by supporting her decision to move out, see a mediator, and start the separation process. It was a DB 180 technique suggested by my DB coach, and it worked. Since then, she has been somewhat friendly to me.
However, this has caused all sorts of new issues with me that i'm working through. Read my
thread #2 thread #2 for more details.
Have you read the 5 Love Languages? It could be that you were on completely different wavelengths in terms of your love needs. As has been said, this will have been building up for some time, and it takes 2 to communicate openly.
At the minute, it's not about blame. It's about finding out how to be the best you, whatever the future holds.
My sister gave me the book after her husband left her, but I foolishly didn't read it until after my wife dropped the bomb. I just thought I knew what I was doing. W had been with me for a good while and things seemed great. I didn't think I needed to read any books. My primary language is physical touch. My wife's primary languages, unfortunately, are quality time and services. So, I was showing love to her mostly via physical touch, but the way she needed to receive love was by doing things with her and doing chores around the house, that kind of thing, which I was stubborn about doing, and rarely initiated doing things with her, but mostly went along with doing things she wanted to do. If only she would let me learn how to be a good husband
with her, instead of forcing me to apply what I have learned here to someone else. We don't need new spouses to learn how to be good spouses, but so many people would rather just give up and start new with someone else.
If only she would let me learn how to be a good husband with her, instead of forcing me to apply what I have learned here to someone else. We don't need new spouses to learn how to be good spouses, but so many people would rather just give up and start new with someone else.
So much truth in that. Mine told me that she shouldn't have been expected to tell me and that I should have known. But then again, how was I supposed to know? Especially after not being told of all the abuse until after BD?
Wsh -
I notice in a lot of your posts there's a "yeah, but" to them. Here's the thing, if your wife felt it, then it was real TO HER. Theres nobody 'defending' her, instead, what Jeep was trying to do was for you to look at those words from your wife's point of view. You say "i didnt mean this or that" or "It wasnt in that way" or whatever. But like I said before, I think you need to look at things from a different perspective.
If your wife felt demeaned, then you were demeaning. It doesnt matter what your intent may have been.
Now, going forward, it isnt about what you say to her. It isnt about taking blame. It isnt about apologizing.
It's about BEING THE CHANGE. How can you take the valuable information that she gave you and mold yourself into the man you want to be? Im not saying every item on her list has merit. I am saying that you need to filter it so that you can set goals for yourself to make personal change.
I think you make a good point. I have often been of the opinion that if I don't think you being offended by what I've done is reasonable, then I'm not going to take responsibility or apologize for my action. But that mindset got me in trouble with my wife a lot. I see absolutely no reason for her to think that I don't want her to think highly of herself, simply because I don't like boastfulness. But to her, it probably seemed that way -- that I didn't want her to think highly of herself. I always tried to explain to her that I wanted her to have a good self esteem, but that there is a difference between thinking complimentary things about yourself in your head and saying them to other people -- a difference between humility and boastfulness. But just because I see it that way, that doesn't mean she does. And whether or not she has a good reason to feel like I don't want her to feel good about herself, that's how she feels about it, and I don't want her to feel that way about it, because then she thinks I'm a jerk, and that's obviously not good.
So, instead, I need to learn to try to understand other people's feelings, rather than argue that they shouldn't have them. I have been very guilty of not doing this, with my wife. I need to empathize with how people feel -- imagine feeling that way myself -- and then work to change the way they feel. If I have to accept that they feel that way as a result of me doing X, then that's what I have to accept, and maybe just don't do X. Just don't complain when she compliments herself. Bite my tongue, and fight more important battles. Maybe just tell her, "I'm glad you have a positive self esteem." I don't know if I could continue biting my tongue when she responds to my compliments with "mmhmm" ("I know"), because that really hurts my feelings and makes me feel like she doesn't value my compliments. I always had issues with her complimenting herself, but I don't think the "mmhmm"s started until the last several months of our marriage. She was showing resentment, I think. We still got along very well, though. So, it was still a major shock when she dropped the bomb.
I think a lot will be determined in how well you drop the emotional you have tied around her.......and how well she sees you being a strong, confident, man that she has lost.
I left out a word. My typing is not as fast as my thinking. I meant to say how well you drop the emotional rope you have tied around her.
Wanted to follow up on this. If there is OM and her family is also against him then how will she even recognize any positive changes in him? Even if she does then would she even care? Better yet, would she even care enough to want to return and work on the M? Yes, self improvement is what needs to happen and I agree that he needs to release the emotional attachments he has on her. However, not for the M, but for himself in case she doesn't find her way back.
If the H is doing a good job of dropping the rope and living his life as if he is moving forward, then she will begin to hear bits of conversation from others, or she'll run into him somewhere.
If her parents have always been a thorn in your flesh, the best gift to give yourself is stay as far away from them as possible. Your WW may have a long running affair with the OM. Her parents may initially stroke him as their way of showing favor for the new guy......but it will fade. We can't make some folks like us. If you don't know why they don't like you......then you live by your own values & standards, and keep your distance from them. Your W chose you once before, and when reality hits........she can choose you again, no matter what her parents say.
As long as you are held prisoner of a fearful mindset, you will not radiate the confidence that is so attractive to women. The WW has to have a view of her reality, and she has to experience a loss. If you can mentally let her go, if will free you to move forward in living like you want.........instead of living like someone else wants. At the moment, you don't want anything but your W. Everyone who has walked in LBS shoes that came through the fire will tell you when they started GAL for real......and made improvements for themselves, was key in finding themselves and feeling good about it. They saw they could be happy with or without their S.
Thank you, Sandi. I will read over this several times. I want to note that at one point, you made it sound like I was very dependent on her. I don't know whether you meant to, but she was actually the very dependent, needy one, always pulling on me for stuff, which is how I was able to be the neglectful one
It is not a healthy emotional balance for either, or both, spouses when they make the other one their entire world.......as you can testify to how your W's dependence wore you down to the point of neglect. It drains the R. We need more than just one person in our world. That's not to say it will decrease your feelings for your S, but expand it.
None of them will hardly talk to me, and now I can barely get my wife to say anything to me either. Is there any sort of time frame to this? My wife keeps gradually doing things toward breakup. Her latest thing has been to talk to me and visit me much less. I don't know whether her lawyer has advised her to do that. How long does it tend to take a heart to soften, if it's going to soften?
When a woman has another man waiting in the wings, she is likely to give her H a cold shoulder to convince him she is done with their M. The more the H tries to get her to talk to him........or anything else.......the colder she will get. In many cases when the H finally lets go, she actually becomes friendlier. There is no time frame for when she softens her heart. IMHO, the first day she realizes the H has dropped the rope, will be the first day for softening her. That doesn't mean she immediately changes her direction.......b/c other things come into play, but for her to sense you are through (which is not the same thing as neglect) and moving on without her.......has an emotional affect on her.
It is not a healthy emotional balance for either, or both, spouses when they make the other one their entire world
This can not be stated strongly enough.
Man, what would lead a person to be someone's best friend and lover for 10 years, being very good to that person throughout that time period, to just all of a sudden cut the person out of their lives and sever all ties and affection? That's cruel. I could never do that to someone.
Man, what would lead a person to be someone's best friend and lover for 10 years, being very good to that person throughout that time period, to just all of a sudden cut the person out of their lives and sever all ties and affection? That's cruel. I could never do that to someone.
I have wondered that very same thing and still don't have an answer. Mine ran because her past affects her present. But, still that's no excuse. I just don't know how they'd just so coldly turn on us. Like you, she was my best friend and lover. I had no idea it was coming...sigh. I guess some questions will never be answered.
Is it possible that men develop a stronger attachment than women to their mate? It's usually women that break up relationships, and it's usually men, it seems like, that obsess over the loss, but that of course would be the case, if they are usually the ones dumped.
I wouldn't say more/stronger, but different. We process things differently. But you are correct, it's the ones who are dumped that behave the way we do, especially when we didn't know.
Man, what would lead a person to be someone's best friend and lover for 10 years, being very good to that person throughout that time period, to just all of a sudden cut the person out of their lives and sever all ties and affection? That's cruel. I could never do that to someone.
Here's the problem with your thinking.
It wasnt 'all of a sudden'. It may seem that way to you, but it was definitely not for her.
In my opinion, she has been hurt and disappointed and frustrated for years. Sure, you may say she should have told you, but I'm guessing she did somehow. I know my ex did. But I wasnt able to listen, to receive it, to understand it. I attributed it to 'normalcy'...to stuff every couple deals with. To life.
It didnt really become serious to me until action was taken. Until I was told "I want to separate as a way of preparing for divorce. You know what I did? I thought to myself 'why dont I deserve another chance? Why are you springing this on me? Im sure I can do better; why wont you work with me?"
Of course, by this time, AP was in the picture and it was full steam ahead on the D train.
Ive thought of this phenomenon as ice freezing upwards. Imagine your wife as a lake that is slowly freezing from the bottom up. You arent going to notice the trouble until that last layer freezes and the top surface is ice. But over the years, the ice has been accumulating, and what you see as the top freezing over is a giant block of ice.
So, like Ive said to you before, how can you change your perspective to be focused back on what you need to do instead of trying to thaw her? Thats like going out onto that lake and trying to thaw it with a hair dryer!
I wonder why we men don't take our wives seriously when they complain? And why wives don't understand how we never got it, that they were that unhappy? Then some other guy comes in and swoops her up while the relationship is in a slump. It's a messed up dynamic. You would think men and women would be able to understand each other better than that. We are supposed to join together and raise families. We ought to have some sort of innate understanding of how each other work. But instead, we are like two people from different worlds trying to understand each other.
I've gotten bad lately about putting question marks on the end of statements. And this site won't let you edit your posts. I think it's that I just don't care as much about typing perfectly.
This is your opportunity to learn new communication skills. Just like you loved your W the way that you wanted to be loved, our expectations work the same way. We place expectations on others based on the way we would do things, then we come away disappointed when our expectations are not met.
How are things going with GAL? What are you doing different these days? Have you had any interactions with your W?
It is very common to see the WW respond this way. The hurting and hoping H mistakes her sense of relief as being a sign of her softening.
I wish I had the skills to explain how the WW is on a completely different page from him. She might as well be on another planet. When the bomb drop occurs, it is usually her announcement that she is unhappy, doesn't feel in love with him, starts blaming him for this & that, yada-yada......but in truth, she has long had disrespectful feelings toward him.....and is emotionally done (whether she actually says those words or not). It wakes up the H and he begins trying to correct the things he remembers her complaining about. Whether she gives him a laundry list of complaints at the BD or not.......it is not the true root problem that currently exists. That's why the LBH does not see the desired results when he is trying to fix the laundry list. The reason behind her complaints may be legitimate and could have played a part in the breakdown of relationship.......but eventually, she allowed her feelings of disrespect and resentment to take over and lead her into rebellion against her H and their M.
If she was willing to work with him to save their M......then he would see positive results. The current issue is her waywardness. The wayward does not want it....and is not willing to work to get it. IMHO, that is just one of things that separate the wayward from the WAW. The wayward has a hidden agenda. The wayward is cold, selfish, and mean....in spite of what her H tries to do to please her.
IMHO, it works better for the LBH to let her go.....b/c she is going with or without his emotions tied around her. That's not to say they won't ever be together again, but certain things usually have to take place in order for it to occur.
If she goes her separate way, and she's in an affair or living like GGW..... or whatever, he needs to spend that time working on himself and preparing for better things to come. If she's in his future, then he will be better prepared for her. If she's not in his future, he will be better prepared for something else. This is his time to fix himself and become the man he likes. He needs to be a friend to himself and do things he enjoys that maybe he hasn't done since marriage. He needs to use this time to grow! But he needs to do it independently from his WW, and stop making everything about her.
So, she will be in her fantasy world, until it begins to crumble and she experiences consequences that come from her decision to tear apart her family. In the meantime, she still gets glimpses of her LBH, or hear tidbits from others saying how good he look, or how he seems to be enjoying his life, or whatever. She may try to temp check or manipulate him in other ways, but she discovers he has changed and no longer succumbs to her demands or complaints. He no longer is interested in her games, who she is seeing, or what she does (this is from her view). She begins to feel she has really lost him. She sees a confident man who seems in control of his personal life......and she sees some things in him that may remind her of that guy she loved & married.
In time, the affair usually ends and she will either turn to OM2 b/c she doesn't want to give up that type of lifestyle, or she will turn to her the LBH she dumped. That is the time he needs to play hard to get, so to speak. He doesn't need to be her backup plan. And, he needs to use a lot of caution, b/c she should have to work to get him back again. Not through manipulation and playing games, but really doing whatever is necessary to be in marriage relationship with him. Her apologizing and having remorse for the pain she has caused, is a good place to start, but it's not enough. She still has to do something about her wayward feelings in her heart, otherwise, the M will be right back in the same shape again.
Instead of sweeping things under the rug, acting like nothing has happened......they need to attend therapy for couples healing from infidelity, and take reconciliation slowly. They should not jump right back into living together before the problems are resolved. And even after they move back together, they may need to follow a long term program that helps couples who are trying to recover and have a better MR.
The LBH was working hard on himself during the time she was gone. Her hard work begins on herself once she faces her reality and takes ownership for the pain and destruction she has caused. If she really does it, then her heart is more likely to soften enough to feel remorse. Her remorse is very important. Without her taking responsibility for her behavior, the affair, etc., she will not make the changes and do the hard work ahead of her....and she'll continue to blame her H. If they make the decision to be a couple again.....then their hard work begins on their relationship. This time around, the H will be wiser and better prepared.
I want to post what sandi2 posted to KevinIn. It is pure gold. She is spot on. I lived it.
This is your opportunity to learn new communication skills. Just like you loved your W the way that you wanted to be loved, our expectations work the same way. We place expectations on others based on the way we would do things, then we come away disappointed when our expectations are not met.
How are things going with GAL? What are you doing different these days? Have you had any interactions with your W?
My wife seems to be keeping interactions to a bare minimum. I met her at a store parking lot a few days ago to trade some of her things for some of my things. I thought she looked at me with love, but she ran away so fast, making the usual claim that she has things to do. I think she's desperately trying to detach from me, and/or has been advised by her lawyer to not talk to me much right now. I hope that if she cheated on me, that she doesn't feel like it could never work out, that I would never forgive her. Had I been a great husband, and she did that, or had she been a poor wife, and then cheated on me, then I might not forgive. But since I hadn't been a great husband, and she had been a great wife, I could forgive her. My counsel agreed with me that I should not extend any forgiveness to her during this time of separation negotiations. I wrote her a letter a few days ago telling her that I have forgiven not only the things that I know about, but also anything that I could conceive of her doing, including infidelity. I have not shared with her the letter. It's a shame that the legal process gets in the way of reconciliation sometimes like it does. But I also later saw where Sandi wrote in this thread to not give W a letter of forgiveness, because as long as she is with OM, she will not be receptive to it, or something like that. Hmm. But what if she were on the fence about OM? --which I wouldn't have much knowledge of, because I barely talk to her or see what's going on in her life. It's like she wants me to be dead to her.
GAL and changesI haven't been doing much lately, because I've been working on the separation. I had to wait about 2 hours this morning for a locksmith to finish changing all of the locks in the house. I haven't worked out much over the past week or so because of how busy I have been, and because of how much I have been avoiding being in my house. It's so depressing being there, because everything reminds me of my wife. The friend that I had made a few weeks ago started showing interest in me again, I'm not sure why, but said he was sorry for being "a little out of touch". If I can make one friend, then maybe that can turn into more, if he has friends that I like. I know my dad and step-mom have to be sick of me constantly wanting to be around them, when I'm not at work. I don't know what I want more of, being away from the marital house or being around people that love me. I'm trying to think of things to do to GAL. I have so few interests. I've always been very introverted and wanted to work on my personal hobbies, at least since I was a teenager. All my wife needed me to do was to show a little more interest in going out and being around people we know. But now I feel like I have to change into another person to show that I'm making changes. I don't want to waste away on the computer, but I don't know what else to do. I've thought about looking into a pilot's license, to fight fear, just as I considered getting a motorcycle. I have thought that the way that I at times am very emotional, right now, I probably don't need to be on a motorcycle. So far, through this breakup, I have had one close call in the car.
(Tangent) It seemed that my anti-lock brake system failed when I needed to slam on brakes. It kept my wheels from locking, but something caused my brakes to become very weak, and I had to go off the road to avoid the car in front of me. That car is 8.5 years old. I don't like the idea of keeping a vehicle more than 10 years. So, it's coming up on time to get a new one, because I don't like having to get cars repaired.
(End Tangent) I've also gone to church the last 2 weeks, by myself. I don't really want to start talking to other women yet, because I don't yet have the legal right to date. But it would be nice to find some to hang out with, whether I think I could ever marry them or not.
I want to post what sandi2 posted to KevinIn. It is pure gold. She is spot on. I lived it.
Thanks, LITB. I went and found the post that Sandi made, so that I could read the context. The post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2732568#Post2732568
Had I been a great husband, and she did that, or had she been a poor wife, and then cheated on me, then I might not forgive. But since I hadn't been a great husband, and she had been a great wife, I could forgive her. My counsel agreed with me that I should not extend any forgiveness to her during this time of separation negotiations.
For me, forgiveness is a personal choice. She doesnt need to know if you forgive her. To me, reaching out to tell her you 'forgive her' is pursuing.
It's so depressing being there, because everything reminds me of my wife.
How can you change that? Replace photographs? Take down artwork? Buy some new 'man' stuff?
I don't really want to start talking to other women yet, because I don't yet have the legal right to date. But it would be nice to find some to hang out with, whether I think I could ever marry them or not.
For love of all things holy, NO, dont start thinking about dating. Thats ludicrous. You just spent pages talking about how much you are pining for W; you need to get clear of that before you have any right bringing another woman into this.
BUT, yes, you shouldnt spend your life alone. Get out there and meet people. Try some new things. Im super introverted too, but I was able to get into a group through a meetup and that really helped me change things around. Look to go do something new: join a club for dancing, gaming, socializing, whatever. Meeting people that know you as you and not as Mrs. WshIKnw's husband is so liberating.
Excellent post. I will keep referring back to that.
For me, forgiveness is a personal choice. She doesnt need to know if you forgive her. To me, reaching out to tell her you 'forgive her' is pursuing.
What exactly constitutes pursuing? I'm not clear on that. Is initiating any contact pursuing? DB coach, Chuck, suggested I start contacting her every few days, not to talk about the relationship. I have tried some, but she acts so disinterested in talking that I have given up on that. He suggested I 180 and tell her I appreciate the fairness of what she has proposed in the separation agreement, and to find one small thing to disagree with her on. I have texted her a few times without a response, and I am afraid of saying something that could hurt me legally, if I talk about the separation agreement. I wouldn't be surprised if she told me she wouldn't discuss it out of fear of hurting her 'case'.
It's so depressing being there, because everything reminds me of my wife.
How can you change that? Replace photographs? Take down artwork? Buy some new 'man' stuff?
I have taken down all photographs of her, but just the layout of everything reminds me of her. Every time I take a shower, I imagine her coming to the bathroom door to sweetly greet me, like she used to do all the time, or peek into the shower to tease me.
I don't really want to start talking to other women yet, because I don't yet have the legal right to date. But it would be nice to find some to hang out with, whether I think I could ever marry them or not.
For love of all things holy, NO, dont start thinking about dating. Thats ludicrous. You just spent pages talking about how much you are pining for W; you need to get clear of that before you have any right bringing another woman into this.
Well, I would make sure that any new ladies understood where I stand. I would make sure they are aware of whether or not I would take my wife back. The best ladies to hang out with are ones in the same situation, perhaps.