Hi,
I have my first DB session later today but I wanted to also post here and get more input. It's a long backstory but I'll try to cut out the unnecessary parts. I have already started the big picture plan (work on myself, spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally), but I'm lost when it comes to the smaller stuff and I need to make a decision by tonight on how to respond to my WAW. WAW and I are both 32 with no kids and a dog we raised. Together for 7.5 years, married for 5.5.
A little over a year ago I started to slide into depression. I didn't lose my job, but I lost my position and was transferred to a desk that did not require much work or thought. I went from a demanding job in the field helping people all day long to the mundane existence of answering a couple emails each day. Without going into detail about the position, let me just say I worked for a decade and had a lot of training and education that went into this position. I took pride in what I did and identified with it. That could be part of my problem, but I suppose that's something for me to work on. I should also add that I was not underperforming or being punished, it was just a numbers game and I drew the short straw. For what it's worth I can't leave the company for another few years without serious repercussions, so I'm kind of stuck for right now in this unfulfilling work situation. Add to that my dad having a stroke the summer before from which he hasn't recovered and can't even talk or communicate.
At the same time my wife who works at the same place (in a totally different department on the other side of the city) ended up getting moved to a very very demanding position requiring lots of travel and long hours. She tried to help me with my situation and was unable to, she felt I blamed her for my problems and expected her to fix it, and she felt helpless to pull me from my depression. Meanwhile our sex life suffered from my depression & stress, I was on autopilot and did not put the effort into it I should have. In her view I only cared about my own sexual fulfillment and not enough about hers. She's not wrong, but it's not that I never cared about her getting an equal amount out of it, but she continued to tell me everything was fine and I was self-absorbed and stressed about my own issues.
At the end of the summer she had a short affair with a co-worker, it happened twice. I found out the day before we were supposed to go into counseling for our existing issues. She agreed immediately to a no-contact letter, she has been extremely remorseful, she believes she is a monster, she thinks what she did is worse than murder because she's essentially getting away with it, she is more spiritual than I am and has had a hard time coming to terms with what she did with respect to her relationship with God, and she has also had a hard time coming to terms with her relationship with herself. I believe 100% the affair is over and her mother and step-mother have also reiterated this. She got close to someone at work, started living in la-la land, went to a big work party (with tons of alcohol) while she was traveling, and screwed up big time. And then she tried to convince herself she was in love and that she wasn't a monster and they tried it a second time and realized it was a terrible mistake. She realizes how terribly stupid she was and how completely wrong she was.
I found out the night before we had scheduled counseling anyways, I was so upset and didn't know who to talk to -- I cried, I yelled, I threw a glass across the room (not at her), I collapsed to the floor. But I didn't want any of my friends to have a lesser view of her because everyone loves her. She is a great person. After I found out I asked who knew about it, she said that she had told her mother. So I called her mother that night and talked to her. I told my wife I would see her at counseling the next day and went to bed alone (she slept in the guest room). We went to counseling two days in a row and then it was the weekend, I told her she could have the house and the dog for the weekend and that I was going out of town and wanted her to be gone by the time I got back on Sunday.
She spent the weekend cleaning the house and putting up a Christmas tree and trying to make everything nice for me. She left a note apologizing and saying she understood if I wanted to throw the tree out. She came back to the house Sunday night after I got home and knocked on the door and was in tears and wanted to talk. I was still angry and pretty much shut it down and wouldn't open the door more than a foot or so. I regret not letting her come in now and talk, but I was still angry and in shock.
We went to counseling four days in a row that next week. I had spent the weekend extremely angry and drinking with friends in another state but I never told them what was going on. A week into it I had been trying to read some eastern philosophy and the bible and I had really been digging into the topic of anger and how to handle it. I made a conscious decision that I did not want to be angry. Of course I couldn't just turn it off, but I did my best to avoid bringing anger into the counseling sessions -- she was being harder on herself than I ever could be and being pissed wasn't going to get us anywhere. I tried explaining this in counseling but I know she still doesn't quite understand or appreciate my thoughts on this. In some kind of screwed up way I think she wanted me to show anger for longer. I could sit here and get angry about it right now, but I know that will not help anything. During this time also she sent me a text with a link to a song that basically was about how she screwed up, how she wasn't good enough for me, and asking for forgiveness.
Also about a week into this I also decided to ask her out on a date (she was living in a hotel at this point). I got cleaned up, brought her a rose, took her on a date. It was weird but we made the best of it. We tried going out several days in a row and about once or twice a week after that. Some dates were better than others and we were really taking on way too much too early, but...hindsight. I also asked her to come home after about a week and she said she felt it wasn't the right time. She continued to say this for weeks.
We went to counseling once a week until mid-January (meanwhile she was and continues to rent room for herself). We also would go to church together and try to go on the dates. She went home to visit her family over the New Year (something we have always done together) and asked me not to come because she feared if we spent too much time together it would be too stressful and force us to the brink. Meanwhile, we were not really getting much out of counseling. The counselor was spinning our wheels, she would ask us to go home and do homework (like each of us come up with a list of good and bad things we remember from our relationship) and the next time the counselor wouldn't even remember it or bring it up. We were talking and being extremely kind with each other but we weren't getting anywhere in counseling.
Outside of counseling we were trying to email each other and talk about things but I think we did more damage than good. Add to that her mother trying to "help" each of us and in turn adding extra damage and it was all too much. Her mother's side of the family put a ton of pressure on her to stay with me and work through it. Her father's side just wanted to support both of us in as neutral a way possible. I did not tell her family at all, this was all my wife's doing. My wife also told me on multiple occasions that she wanted me to have a support system during this because she knew I couldn't really do so with my family and didn't want to involve my friends.
Anyways, there was a lot of pressure on her from her family, from work, from the counselor, and from me. It was too much. She got back from visiting her family, we had one good counseling session where we took control of the session and were able to start talking about pre-existing sexual issues (we both agreed this was what we wanted to talk about ahead of time). I was hoping the next week we would pickup where we left off, but the counselor had told my wife she needed to commit to the process of counseling. She also told my wife she needed to "stop taking her temperature everyday" when it came to my wife's feelings of attractiveness toward me. My wife said she loves and cares for me deeply but doesn't feel in-love or passionate for me anymore. The counselor told her it wasn't just going to reappear one day that it was a longer process through which we reconnected.
It was all too much, I think, and the next week my wife came in and handed me a three page letter asking for a divorce (about a month ago). She wanted to bolt but the counselor asked her to stay. I tried to be very understanding and calm. I told her I disagree very much with her decision but love her anyways. I had also come with a letter that took ownership of a lot of my problems and told her how much I care for her and want to work things out. She told me she wanted me to email her with any questions or whatever that I might have. She also said her step-mother had flown in to be there to support me. I think my wife really just came under so much pressure and finally said F-it. Her step-mother agrees with this, though I'm sure there's more to it. Like...not feeling attracted to her husband anymore.
Step-mom was great and was here for a week. She really dedicated herself to helping both of us in as neutral a way as possible. She got me eating and exercising again. She wanted to help us both heal and if we can one day come back together great and if not, she still loves both of us. After my wife said she wanted a divorce, apparently her mom sent her a nasty email saying she didn't support her and she needed to grow up. I waited a little over a week and finally emailed my wife. It was a really good email, I didn't accuse her of anything or beg her, I told her I heard her, I understood, that I feel we have some horrible miscommunications and then I told her a little bit about how this process has been a tremendous awakening for me and really helped me learn about myself, how I haven't dealt with stress or depression very well, how it has affected us, etc, and told her that I love her and support her regardless of what happens to us and that I just want her to be happy. She emailed back and said she hears me too, that she thinks we both need to work on ourselves right now and even though we're going through hell it will be the best for us regardless of what happens to us, and that she was glad I had such a great support system right now during a time when she can't be here for me, and that she was really happy I was getting in touch with my spiritual side.
I have been working on myself, trying to grow, get in touch with my spiritual side, become confident again, get away from neediness and dependency that my wife felt I had, exercise, work on the house, and generally become a good man again. The man my wife married and perhaps more. I've been reading non-stop, in fact I wish I had more time to read I have too much stuff lined up that I want to get through. After her step-mom left and flew home, her step-mom would call or text every day to see how I was doing. I was trying to limit this contact when about a week later my WAW's step-father had a stroke.
My WAW was out of town for work and I emailed her to ask if she would like me to go with her to support her mother and step-father during this medical crisis. She couldn't leave work and had a stomach bug (and thus didn't want to go into the ICU) but wanted me to go to be able to support her mother since mom had called and asked me to come. The stroke was bad. My wife was supposed to come out later in the week, but said she didn't want us to both be there at the same time because it would be too much stress with everything going on. Her mother told my WAW that she needed to put our issues aside for right now and come out to help her. I knew my WAW wouldn't respond well to this and I bought a ticket home early and sent my WAW an email telling her I was leaving early against her mother's wishes so that my she could fly out and be there. WAW replied and said she wanted me to stay there through the weekend, that she was still sick and would only have a couple days there before having to go back to work anyways.
I flew home after being there for a week, WAW had been to the house and moved her stuff out. She sent me an email when I landed and left a letter at the house – both essentially saying the same thing, that we have grown apart, she wants a divorce, that we can’t find happiness with each other anymore, but that she wanted me to contact her with any questions I had so she could give me closure. I told her mother because I was still in constant contact with her due to the stroke situation and her mother texted my WAW telling her moving out while I was taking care of her family was pretty screwed up.
My WAW self-identified as an emotional avoider in counseling and to me in the past – when talking about the loss of her college girlfriend relationships (she lost all of these friends over the past several years), she would say that due to her childhood and moving around so much she felt like people were mostly disposable. I was very upset when I came home to find that she had moved her stuff out…But also confused to find that she had cleaned the house as well. I’m guessing it was some sort of effort to make herself feel better about what she was doing, knowing it was screwed up. I’m not sure, honestly. I had really had enough at this point. Even though her family had been contacting me, I wasn’t trying to recruit them to say or do anything. I had been trying to taper off the contact but still remain polite. I had not seen or talked to my WAW since she said she wanted a divorce in counseling. I was trying to give her time/space. I was trying to work on myself. When her step-father had the stroke I debated on what to do, but I knew that the right thing was to support the family – with my father having had a bad stroke a year and a half ago, I knew how devastating it could be. Needless to say, I felt like being nice and giving her space was just not doing anything. I felt like she was walking all over me and didn’t respect me for trying to make things work. I wrote her an email the day after I got back. I sat on it for a day, revised it, made it less harsh. I basically told her she was avoiding me, avoiding dealing with the situation, avoiding dealing with the emotions and the fallout from her affair, and avoiding talking to me in-person. I called her out. I didn’t talk down to her or call her names, I just called the situation like I see it – that she only talks to family members who support her decision and is living in an echo chamber, avoiding contact with her mother, sister, and step-father (before his stroke) because they don’t agree with what she is doing. It wasn’t all bad, I also tried to explain how I feel and that I love her even though we are all human and screw up.
That was about two weeks ago. Leading up to this point I had been inadvertently following various parts of Sandi's Rules – not begging, not pleading, etc. I have since been strictly following this with the exception of checking in on her step-dad’s condition. I’m really not sure how to handle that, I want to know how he is doing, but her mom usually ends up talking about my WAW too. I have also been going to the gym almost every day, reading, and generally trying to GAL.
Last night my WAW emailed me asking if I would be willing to meet her Wednesday night for coffee. She didn’t say anything else, just that she was swamped at work. I’m not sure if I should go. I feel like disengaging means for longer than this. And I don’t feel I’m really ready to talk to her right now. Maybe a month from now, but Wednesday seems awfully soon. Amazon sent me an email over the weekend saying she had disconnected our accounts from sharing prime. I could care less about Amazon, but this small act shows me she is still on the road to divorce and total disconnection. What do I do??? My best friend is familiar with the whole situation and thinks I should postpone it a week, but thinks not going is ultimately showing her I'm weak.
Writing this I realized that I’ve done a terrible job at following Sandi's Rules until these past couple of weeks. In fact, it’s embarrassing to look back at see how much I screwed up so far, but I suppose nobody goes into this knowing how to handle it.
Thank you so much for reading this and giving me feedback. I love her so much, I want to make this work between us if it's possible.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello 180man,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in. I'm glad that you are scheduled to speak with your DB Coach today.
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal.
Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.
Please call me at 303-444-7004 when you want to schedule another session with your DB Coach.
Regards,
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thank you Cristy & Cadet. I do believe in forgiveness and being able to heal, I know I will be okay with out her if it comes to that, but I don't want to just "be okay," we have/had something special that's worth fighting for. If we tried to work through it for six or twelve months and couldn't get anywhere I'd understand. But a month and a half of counseling with a crappy counselor we both didn't like just doesn't seem like we really gave it a proper go.
I know everyone here has similar situations and stories, I really appreciate the help and support.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
One big red flag to me.
The affair she had the end of last summer was with a co-worker.
You claim she ended it, but does she/did she continue to work with the guy?
Did she continue to travel with the guy?
I breezed through the large story but I found it odd that your wife chose to remain in the hotel and chose to travel and be separate from you so much. Desiring "space" is often a technique used by a wayward spouse to keep BOTH their affair and their marriage going while they continue to put off actually deciding which relationship they want.
Do you know who the OM is/was and is he married?
If he's married, his wife should know the truth about her life and, without any repercussions, there's no reason for him to stop pursuing relations with your wife.
Another clue ---- your wife claims not to be in love with you or attracted to you. So often that means she IS in love and attracted to someone else. There needs to be a point of comparison before a woman says: "I don't love you".
Finally, she may well have ended the affair but the first rule of recovery is "no contact for life" and if she still works with the guy or sees him around the office EVER you never had a chance.
Sorry if I missed a detail above. It was a lot to read and maybe OM lives in another city and they haven't spoken or seen each other since last summer. However, anything more than that makes recovery impossible.
Because you are both Christians, you should be talking to and getting support from your Pastor too.
One big red flag to me.
The affair she had the end of last summer was with a co-worker.
You claim she ended it, but does she/did she continue to work with the guy?
Did she continue to travel with the guy?
We're both military so there's no choice. If I tell the other spouse, I can't control what she will do with the information. She could end both their careers. The OM knows I know everything and in my wife's no-contact letter she told him if he talks to her I will ruin their careers. OM leaves the unit in a couple months. He has a young child he is fearful of losing. At many times I have been angry and wanted to go nuclear and just tell everyone, but ending my WAW's career would ensure I would never see her again. My mother has tried to convince me that I would feel terrible if I took this route. I'm not considering it, but I'm not going to tell you it hasn't crossed my mind.
My WAW had convinced herself she was in love with OM, convinced herself that he was some ideal father figure, but realized afterwards how stupid she had been. But I believe she ended up having to justify he affair to herself and convinced herself that my prior problems were the cause and, thus, she just doesn't have those butterflies anymore.
Because you are both Christians, you should be talking to and getting support from your Pastor too.
I emailed our pastor two months ago to ask for a list of therapists they recommend (our pastor doesn't do counseling himself, it seems). She flipped out and told me she didn't want our church involved until we both decided together. I believe she initially thought I had talked to the pastor about our problem rather than just seeking a list of counselors.
My best friend believes I should take her up on the offer for coffee, if not in two days then this weekend or next week perhaps. He knows she is a very strong woman and wants a strong husband (who I was before the depression, I suppose). He believes I should go in there and tell her we have something worth saving and that I'm not gonna let her give up on it with out a fight, that the marriage counselor was a joke and we need to remember how to talk like adults and figure this out, that she needs to stop running away and we're gonna work out the all the little issues we had. That we have something special and she isn't going to ruin it because she is scared to talk, and that I need to start acting like the strong husband I was and want to be once again. Essentially he thinks I need to be strong and tell her we're going to work through it and when ever she is ready I will help her move back in. Then ask if she has any questions, excuse myself, and leave.
She expects me to show up wimper and cry, ask why and beg. That will be her wall and defence plan, but my friend suggests that I go in swinging because she is a strong woman but she wants a strong man.
Not sure how I feel about this idea, but I intend to discuss it during my session today.
If you meet with her I suggest you listen and validate. Then tell her you need time to think and be the one to close the conversation. I would then go dark for at least 2-3 weeks and detach with a capital D. You are very tied into your WW and tap into her moods too often. Be strong, be mysterious, be the guy she first fell in love with. What were you like when you first met WW?
Yeah, I'm going back and forth between listen/validate and my buddy's direct/confident approach.
When she met me I was very very confident (honestly, to a fault looking back at it). I didn't give a f--- what anyone else thought, I did crazy things and didn't think twice about it.
But over time I settled down and became much more considerate (to a fault) and my job beat me down at times and I had times of harsh negativity. Not 24/7 of course, but enough to upset her.
Emailed her Tuesday night, said I was busy Wednesday night. I suggested another time next week. No reply.
Neighbor told me she came to visit him and his wife while he was in the hospital over the weekend. Supposedly I didn't come up, but he has said several times that she seems like she's a woman on a mission. Also mentioned that she's going to get a new phone number. Wtf.
There's no point in this, she's obviously set on going ahead with dismantling our life one step at a time. I haven't even seen her in four or five weeks.
No point in what, exactly?
Trying to save my marriage and stop the divorce...it feels inevitable. She is a strong and stubborn woman and once she gets an idea set in her head it's nearly impossible to reverse.
There's no point in this, she's obviously set on going ahead with dismantling our life one step at a time. I haven't even seen her in four or five weeks.
YUP - she is following the script and so are you.
The tendency is to destroy everything first,
so really no great surprise.
My suggestion is to Trust the Process - follow what we
are telling you in DB, Detach, GAL, keep working on yourself.
Trying to save my marriage and stop the divorce...it feels inevitable. She is a strong and stubborn woman and once she gets an idea set in her head it's nearly impossible to reverse.
Maybe your focus is in the wrong place then.
What would be different if you were divorced right now? How would your daily life actually change?
My guess is not very much.
So instead of focusing on trying to stop something that has essentially already happened, focus on your improvements and 180s and how to slowly rebuild yourself to becoming happy and healthy with or without your W.
So instead of focusing on trying to stop something that has essentially already happened, focus on your improvements and 180s and how to slowly rebuild yourself to becoming happy and healthy with or without your W
This is truly the only thing you can do.
This morning I read Sandi's Reflections:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323I shared it with two of my close male friends. We were all totally on the same page with Sandi as it feels like my wife fits what Sandi describes there. In my first post here I did not understand there was a different between a WAW and a WW. I get it now.
My two close friends and I talked at length about this today. Even before I found Sandi's Reflections one of my friends was telling me it's time to "stop being a bitch, be the man she fell in love with and wants you to be." A crude way to put it, perhaps, but I get what he's saying. And after reading what Sandi wrote, it reinforced it all that much more.
Then tonight I had a DB session, explained to her that I wanted to take a different approach because I feel I have been very understanding and tried to validate and take ownership in counseling...and it got me here where she's asking for a divorce. So I explained to her that I think I want to take a different approach.
We are supposed to sit down for coffee either next week or the week after and I really need to figure out how I'm going to approach it. Now I'm very confused between the two options of validate vs walking in strong and telling her we have something special that I'm not going to give up without a fight.
Really wish I could talk to Sandi on the phone, haha! No...seriously!
It's possible we may have coffee as early as Monday and I'm really worried I won't choose the correct path.
I wish I could edit posts. I read what I wrote just now and felt it needs more clarification. There's two options I've been presented with today and I'm now very confused as to which I should take.
There's Sandi's recommendation of being Strong as she discusses in that thread I linked above.
And then there's DB's recommendation of valdation and empathy.
I feel I really tried the validation and empathy when we were in counseling last month and the month before. Maybe I didn't do it very well? Maybe I would do a better job at it now having not seen her for a month since she asked for a divorce.
I don't know.
But I'm pretty sure I can't try both of these options in one sitting. I'm not sure how that would work.
So...here I sit...confused. Pondering. I will sleep on it and hope maybe Sandi has time to read my story and give her feedback. And of course others as well! I appreciate all the help thus far.
Ok ok, one more quick update. I found our copy of "The 5 Love Languages" from a few years ago. My wife wrote notes in the book! Little breadcrumbs for me to find during this time of hell.
Page 16 says "Complete the following: 'There would be fewer divorces if only people______"
and my wife wrote:
"-Communicated better
-Accepted their spouse's personality, looks, needs, and (some) behaviors & didn't try to change them
-Were happy people as being individuals as they are being a couple
-Could learn to give each other space"
Ok....so...time for sleep, but I am excited to think about what she wrote with respect to the questions above I've put out there to Sandi.
There's no point in walking in and telling her anything. Strong words without strong actions are meaningless. Strong actions don't need words.
What good will telling her this do? I think it's good that you found her notes. Think on those.
Strong actions are difficult. I struggle with this. But you can carry on giving her space. Let her work through this. I think the bit that we, as the LBS, item struggle with is 'believe nothing of what they say'.
Yesterday, my W's messages would indicate she wanted it over and was now ready to sell the house.
When I got home I pretty much left her alone and the subject never came up.
It's hard when you feel you're dying inside, but you just have to keep doing what's best for you.
As Cadet says, they are following the script. It's hard when you know this not to tell them, not to want to scream in their faces "you're in the fog, you're doing exactly what all women in your position do, why can't you see?" What good would it do? They won't believe us. Each believes their sitch is unique. I think we need to work on us not following the LBS script.
Then tonight I had a DB session, explained to her that I wanted to take a different approach because I feel I have been very understanding and tried to validate and take ownership in counseling...and it got me here where she's asking for a divorce.
Im having some trouble reconciling what you are trying to say/do. You say theres two different approaches, but, to me, they arent really mutually exclusive.
I think YES you should be validating and empathetic. This does not mean you have to agree with everything she says. This does not mean you need to solve her problems. This means you should listen to her, understand her, accept that her feelings are valid, and communicate that.
I also think that YES, you should be strong and confident. You dont need to be the man she fell in love with, you should be better than that. Youre armed with so much more knowledge now!
What was your DB coach's recommendation?
Ok ok, one more quick update. I found our copy of "The 5 Love Languages" from a few years ago. My wife wrote notes in the book! Little breadcrumbs for me to find during this time of hell.
As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.
Ok ok, one more quick update. I found our copy of "The 5 Love Languages" from a few years ago. My wife wrote notes in the book! Little breadcrumbs for me to find during this time of hell.
As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.
Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.
-Communicated better
So, what does this mean? To me, it doesnt mean it's time to run over and spill your guts. It means to communicate better...smarter. I think you should focus on more than just your words. This involves your listening skills, it involves your actions matching your words and mirroring her words. What can you do to communicate "BETTER"?-Accepted their spouse's personality, looks, needs, and (some) behaviors & didn't try to change them
So....is there something you arent telling us about your interactions? How controlling would you say that you were in your M?-Were happy people as being individuals as they are being a couple
In your first post, you said this: A little over a year ago I started to slide into depression. How have you fixed this?-Could learn to give each other space
So do it. Now is a great time to give her space.
There's no point in walking in and telling her anything. Strong words without strong actions are meaningless. Strong actions don't need words.
What good will telling her this do? I think it's good that you found her notes. Think on those.
Strong actions are difficult. I struggle with this. But you can carry on giving her space. Let her work through this. I think the bit that we, as the LBS, item struggle with is 'believe nothing of what they say'.
I agree, but since I haven't seen her in a month...if I refuse to meet with her as she has asked, then I think that's a weak action instead of a strong action. So if the strong action is to show up, then I need to decide
how I'm going to show up. Am I going to sit and hold space for her, validate, and be empathetic like I tried to do in counseling? When she came into our last counseling session about a month ago and asked for a D, the counselor told me afterward that I handled it very well. I told her I understand, that I disagree very much with this decision but that I love her and want her to be happy.
Or do I show up like Sandi suggests?
Yesterday, my W's messages would indicate she wanted it over and was now ready to sell the house.
When I got home I pretty much left her alone and the subject never came up.
It's hard when you feel you're dying inside, but you just have to keep doing what's best for you.
At least you're still living with her, she can see your actions every day. Or maybe that makes it harder?
As Cadet says, they are following the script. It's hard when you know this not to tell them, not to want to scream in their faces "you're in the fog, you're doing exactly what all women in your position do, why can't you see?" What good would it do? They won't believe us. Each believes their sitch is unique. I think we need to work on us not following the LBS script.
Agreed!
Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.
Yes, they are good thoughts. The info is old and from a different mindset. Should he make those changes in himself and become better at those things? Of course. But to do it in hopes of winning her back - just for that reason alone - is wrong, instead he should be doing it for himself...which would be better in future relationships with whoever.
Now, if he brought those up to her he may very well get a "too little, too late" response...or better...or worse. Who knows.
Im having some trouble reconciling what you are trying to say/do. You say theres two different approaches, but, to me, they arent really mutually exclusive.
I think YES you should be validating and empathetic. This does not mean you have to agree with everything she says. This does not mean you need to solve her problems. This means you should listen to her, understand her, accept that her feelings are valid, and communicate that.
I also think that YES, you should be strong and confident. You dont need to be the man she fell in love with, you should be better than that. Youre armed with so much more knowledge now!
What was your DB coach's recommendation?
DB recommended validation/empathy and acting as her friend. Perhaps I can pull some quotes from Sandi's thread and try to show you what I am perceiving she is suggesting that would be contrary to validation/empathy...
Sandi would likely classify me as a "nice guy type," which is fair.
The nice-guy tells himself he's "taking the high road", but really, he is being passive and avoiding confrontation, or the issues. He won't call his W out, stand up to her, hold her accountable, or let her deal with the consequences of her behavior.
So about a week after discovery of her A, I had been reading a lot of eastern philosophy and looking for answers in the bible and was trying to find some enlightenment on anger. I didn't want to be angry in counseling, I felt it would derail any sort of productivity. I sat down and tried to explain to her how I was feeling about anger and why I was refraining from showing it in counseling. I read her a couple of quotes, such as...
"If we repay wrongs with kindness we put an end to revenge. If we repay wrongs with wrongs, revenge never ends" -Ta'ao Tao-Ch'ung
I am saddened at how many men continue to think everything will be okay if only he can persuade her to change her mind.
I guess I thought that in those six weeks of counseling we went through, if I listened and tried to understand her feelings and thoughts...and tried to explain and clarify when necessary, that it would bring us back to happiness. Apparently not.
Meanwhile....
Super Husband is stirring around like a busy little bee and smiling.........watching her to see if she is noticing all that he's doing for her and how happy he is to get to do it. What he doesn't know is if she gives him a thought at all .... This woman's heart is closed to her H. He could work himself down into the ground and it would have no affect on her feelings.
And it didn't/hasn't.
Everything is about her. She will step on whoever gets in her way of whatever she wants at the moment. She is a master of manipulation and will use every trick in the book to accomplish what she wants. Her desires are at the top of her priority list, and she believes it should be on everyone else's, too.
So what does a man do when his wife's heart is hardened and closed off to him? When all his nice-guy ways fail miserably, what is the next step? Well, from what I have seen in the majority of the nice-guys, their nature is to want to wait it out. WAIT IT OUT?? What exactly do they think will happen? Let me say this to all the nice-guys out there.......this is part of your problem in the MR. You are passive and you want to just wait it out about everything! You think things will eventually work itself out.
And this is where I come to the problem of giving her space. Yes, I do believe she needs time and space. She hasn't seen me in a month. We have had limited communication in that time. But she has asked if I'm willing to sit down with her and talk, I think refusing to go would be a mistake.
Which leads to this...
He is not
going to persuade her to give him another chance to prove how great he
can be. She is done, over, and out of the MR. She will not hear a
single word he says, as long as she has no respect for him. I don't
think LBH's truly get it, b/c they have this idea that they need to
show the WW more love. WHAT?? Read my lips........she does not want
you showing her how much you love her! At this point, that's the last
thing she wants.
These guys buy into some kind of fantasy
that if they become her BFF, she'll eventually fall back in love with
him. I know that is what the DB coaches recommend, and I try to be
respectful to them.
My DB coach has recommended treating her as a friend right now. When I sit down with her my DB coach has suggested I listen/validate/empathize. I think I agree with Sandi...
How does he get her respect? Well, it's not by being a softie.
And herein lies my problem. I feel like validation is going to be more of the softie approach.
Am I incorrect? Tell me how I can apply both methods? It would bring me great relief to figure out a way to blend both sides.
As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.
Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.
-Communicated better
So, what does this mean? To me, it doesnt mean it's time to run over and spill your guts. It means to communicate better...smarter. I think you should focus on more than just your words. This involves your listening skills, it involves your actions matching your words and mirroring her words. What can you do to communicate "BETTER"?
-Accepted their spouse's personality, looks, needs, and (some) behaviors & didn't try to change them
So....is there something you arent telling us about your interactions? How controlling would you say that you were in your M?
-Were happy people as being individuals as they are being a couple
In your first post, you said this: A little over a year ago I started to slide into depression. How have you fixed this?
-Could learn to give each other space
So do it. Now is a great time to give her space.
Yes, they are good thoughts. The info is old and from a different mindset. Should he make those changes in himself and become better at those things? Of course. But to do it in hopes of winning her back - just for that reason alone - is wrong, instead he should be doing it for himself...which would be better in future relationships with whoever.
Now, if he brought those up to her he may very well get a "too little, too late" response...or better...or worse. Who knows.
Well, I think you're both correct. Yes the information is old and from a different mindset, but I don't believe she would disagree with these ideas were she sitting here with us now. I don't think that they are necessarily something to "try out" on her like an experiment or that one of them may lead to reconciliation.
But I do think I should reflect on them, try to see how I might apply them to working on myself, and try to use them as guidelines, to some degree, when I am communicating with her.
As for the question on being controlling, I don't believe I was a controlling husband. There were aspects of our life where I guess I was controlling, for example, I didn't want her to get any more tattoos for many years. Only this last fall did I realize it wasn't fair for me to hold her back from that and I told her as much. I even went to the tattoo parlor with her and sat with her while she got a new one. Generally speaking though, we were very autonomous. I never demanded she be home at a specific time, I never questioned her whereabouts, I didn't tell her who she could or could not be friends with...nothing like that.
Sexually, we had some really amazing experiences over the years. But some of my OCD hangups caused her to feel, at times, that I wasn't attracted to her or thought she was gross. Maybe this is a reg flag, I don't know. We've talked about it since then and I've owned it. It's my problem, not hers. But there's not much I can do to change the past.
As far as depression, yes. I mean, the current situation isn't really helping, but I think all things considered I'm doing pretty well. I've been trying to GAL. Gym every day. Focusing on work more and trying to actually care about the stupid job I've been given. I've been spending more time with friends. I'm trying to find a good open-mic night around here so I can play some music in public again -- I used to have a band in college where we played the local bars, but I haven't played on a stage in nine or ten years. It would be a good thing for me.
So I'm probably not where I need to be when it comes to GAL yet, but I know I'm on the road there.
There is a HUGE difference between reading this:
"If we repay wrongs with kindness we put an end to revenge. If we repay wrongs with wrongs, revenge never ends"
to your wife, and just embodying it. From what you say, it sounds like you were trying to convince HER to change. That doesnt sound very validating to me.
In my opinion, your goal should be to BE the change. You arent going to convince her to do anything with your words. It's your actions.
So you show up. You act confidently. You engage in listening. You validate her feelings (not AGREE with them. VALIDATE them). That is anything but 'softie'.\
You say this:
And this is where I come to the problem of giving her space. Yes, I do believe she needs time and space. She hasn't seen me in a month. We have had limited communication in that time. But she has asked if I'm willing to sit down with her and talk, I think refusing to go would be a mistake.
Im not seeing your 'problem'. She asked for time, but you want to impose YOUR limit on what 'time' means. I think THATS your problem.
Through all of what you write, I notice a large focus on her. Im not seeing where you are regrowing into the 'man she fell in love with'. How can you focus more on THAT?
There is a HUGE difference between reading this:
to your wife, and just embodying it. From what you say, it sounds like you were trying to convince HER to change. That doesnt sound very validating to me.
I was in counseling working very hard to listen to what she had to say, what she thought our problems were leading up to this. Of course I can learn and improve my ability to validate, but I was anything but brow beating her with change.
In my opinion, your goal should be to BE the change. You arent going to convince her to do anything with your words. It's your actions.
Agreed. And only I can figure out what that looks like. Though I'm open to thoughts and suggestions, too.
So you show up. You act confidently. You engage in listening. You validate her feelings (not AGREE with them. VALIDATE them). That is anything but 'softie'.
Okay. I'm hearing you. I'm still confused, but I'm hearing what you're saying and I think I need to go think about it.
Im not seeing your 'problem'. She asked for time, but you want to impose YOUR limit on what 'time' means. I think THATS your problem.
Well, I think we're misunderstanding here. She did not ask for time. She asked for a divorce but offered multiple times to answer any questions I have (via email). I waited a couple of weeks and instead of emailing her with questions I emailed and called her out for avoiding the situation and our issues, for living in an echo chamber, for running away, for not being willing to talk to me face-to-face about our feelings. She replied two weeks later (this past Monday) and said she agreed that we should sit down and talk in person and asked if I would be willing to.
She asked me if I would be willing to talk to her. I didn't push this on her, I just told her she was avoiding our problems and running away. For all I knew she would never reply to that email and I would get served with papers.
Through all of what you write, I notice a large focus on her. Im not seeing where you are regrowing into the 'man she fell in love with'. How can you focus more on THAT?[/quote]
That's a good point and one I have been working on. I do need to focus more on me. And I need to remind myself of that as I go along. In fact, there's likely a fun part-time job I can get if I do some paperwork, some studying, and take an exam. It would be great for my resume and would be great for me personally. It would get me back to doing what I love, even if it's just on the side. So...yes...I need to do that.
Hi 180,
I think Sandi's advice on the nice guy is most applicable to the LBS who is having an affair rubbed in their noses and thinking that becoming super H is the answer. Taking care of the cooking, cleaning, yardwork, kids etc. while the WW does whatever she pleases. The LBS thinks “Hey, look over here! See how much I love you?” and that’ll win the WW. The nice guy needs to set boundaries so the WW can start to respect them again. A woman can’t love a man she doesn’t respect.
Unless I missed something in your posts, I don’t see that. Are there boundaries you need to set? Are you doing any Super H things?
In your first post, you wrote “I felt like being nice and giving her space was just not doing anything. I felt like she was walking all over me and didn’t respect me for trying to make things work.”
How was she walking all over you? How did she show you disrespect? How long do you think this will take to turn around?
Have no expectations with the meeting with her. You called her out on talking face to face and then she asks to talk face to face. At least she’s listening. And I think Kaizen nailed it; being strong and empathetic are not mutually exclusive. You show strength by listening and understanding her point of view. You should use a lot of “I see your point of view”, “I understand that you feel that way”.
There is no reason to tell her you guys should work on things or let her know you want this to work out. She knows. Listen, validate and let her do all the talking.
You can do this.
Hi 180,
I think Sandi's advice on the nice guy is most applicable to the LBS who is having an affair rubbed in their noses and thinking that becoming super H is the answer. Taking care of the cooking, cleaning, yardwork, kids etc. while the WW does whatever she pleases. The LBS thinks “Hey, look over here! See how much I love you?” and that’ll win the WW. The nice guy needs to set boundaries so the WW can start to respect them again. A woman can’t love a man she doesn’t respect.
Unless I missed something in your posts, I don’t see that. Are there boundaries you need to set? Are you doing any Super H things?
In your first post, you wrote “I felt like being nice and giving her space was just not doing anything. I felt like she was walking all over me and didn’t respect me for trying to make things work.”
How was she walking all over you? How did she show you disrespect? How long do you think this will take to turn around?
I was starting to think that exact thing a couple hours ago -- that perhaps Sandi's posts were directed more at someone who's wife was currently having an affair. This affair, by all accounts, is over and has been for some time. So I feel like I'm in some inbetween phase between a WW and a WAW.
I don't know how long it will take to turn around. Could be never. Conceptually I understand this, but emotionally I still need to come to terms with it.
It felt like the more space I gave her, the more emotional distance she placed between us. She was slowly walling herself off. In counseling I would show up ready to listen and validate and she was often not completely open. She's very intelligent and could wordsmith her way around the counselor's questions. The counselor called her on it once or twice, but I felt like I was putting myself out there, trying to work on our marriage despite her affair, and she wasn't putting in the real effort. She would say "I know it doesn't seem like I'm trying, but I am, and the fact that I'm here should show that." And, yes, I agree, but showing up is only the first step. And she couldn't even do that for more than six weeks. I felt I was digging deep and trying to own my problems in the marriage and all she was doing was trying to find all of our faults.
Have no expectations with the meeting with her. You called her out on talking face to face and then she asks to talk face to face. At least she’s listening. And I think Kaizen nailed it; being strong and empathetic are not mutually exclusive. You show strength by listening and understanding her point of view. You should use a lot of “I see your point of view”, “I understand that you feel that way”.
There is no reason to tell her you guys should work on things or let her know you want this to work out. She knows. Listen, validate and let her do all the talking.
You can do this.
I hear what you guys are all saying. I met with my individual counselor today -- the same woman who saw both of us for the first week before suggesting we might be better served by the infidelity expert on staff -- that second counselor was garbage and didn't care about us as I think I detailed in my first post. Anyways, so she knows my wife to a point, obviously she hasn't seen her in a couple months, but it's at least a better foundation than a counselor who hasn't met your spouse. I explained to her this morning how I felt like I had these two paths I could choose with this coffee meeting and she agreed that I had, indeed, tried to validate and listen in marriage counseling. She said she didn't want to coach me and felt that from listening to me I already knew what path to take -- the strong/confident/tell her what's up path. She does believe that validation is a good idea but thinks it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled.
So, when I listen to her or my close friends, it makes sense. But when I read what you guys are writing here, that also makes sense. Perhaps I do have more of a WAS at this point, I'm not sure. It seems Sandi has a different take on dealing with the WAS mentality, so perhaps I should go read that some and see how I feel about it all.
Thanks for your input, I just need to keep thinking I guess.
Is the "strong/confident/tell her what's up" path this "I should go in there and tell her we have something worth saving and that I'm not gonna let her give up on it with out a fight, that the marriage counselor was a joke and we need to remember how to talk like adults and figure this out, that she needs to stop running away and we're gonna work out the all the little issues we had. That we have something special and she isn't going to ruin it because she is scared to talk, and that I need to start acting like the strong husband I was and want to be once again. Essentially he thinks I need to be strong and tell her we're going to work through it and when ever she is ready I will help her move back in. Then ask if she has any questions, excuse myself, and leave." ?
I'd be cautious of framing it exactly like that. There are some controlling things in there.
"it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled."
How do you mean "steam rolled"? Did things happen in MC where you were "steam rolled"?
“She expects me to show up wimper and cry, ask why and beg.” Your action, instead of words, can be that you are interested in making this work, but that you know you will be ok if she proceeds with the divorce.
Have you read DR or DB?
Is the "strong/confident/tell her what's up" path this "I should go in there and tell her we have something worth saving and that I'm not gonna let her give up on it with out a fight, that the marriage counselor was a joke and we need to remember how to talk like adults and figure this out, that she needs to stop running away and we're gonna work out the all the little issues we had. That we have something special and she isn't going to ruin it because she is scared to talk, and that I need to start acting like the strong husband I was and want to be once again. Essentially he thinks I need to be strong and tell her we're going to work through it and when ever she is ready I will help her move back in. Then ask if she has any questions, excuse myself, and leave." ?
I'd be cautious of framing it exactly like that. There are some controlling things in there.
Yes, I was thinking this would be that. I agree, not phrased quite like this.
"it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled."
How do you mean "steam rolled"? Did things happen in MC where you were "steam rolled"?
In MC it became all about what I had done prior wrong prior to the A that led to us disconnecting. I know I wanted to put my issues with the A itself on the back burner and allow her to talk about our problems leading up to the A, but it felt like I had done everything wrong and it was a lot to digest. In reality it was both of us who screwed up and allowed the disconnect to start.
“She expects me to show up wimper and cry, ask why and beg.” Your action, instead of words, can be that you are interested in making this work, but that you know you will be ok if she proceeds with the divorce.
Have you read DR or DB?
No, which one should I read first for my situation? Essentially a wife who had a short affair who then turned into a walk-away once we started MC because she felt we had grown apart, we're too different, had too much baggage, and could not give each other the happiness we once had.
Our coffee meeting is set now for a week from Monday. I guess I have a little bit of time to get myself together and figure out how to show up.
MWD does not separate the WW from the WAW, and they will tell you to take a soft approach. They suggest you start building or repairing a friendship, empathize, etc.
Since waywardness is based on the absence of respect.......and since the WW is filled with contempt, selfishness, entitlement, manipulation, untrustworthiness, lies, infidelity, etc.............she will not respect a H who is soft and enabling. And almost every WW story I have ever read, the WW will tell the LBH she wants them to be friends! Friendship never works well with a WW, unless you are prepared to end all hope of ever being more than her friend.......and you are willing to be "used" for whatever her mood should dictate, without her giving back.
This is how the friendship works when the W is wayward. Her definition and your definition of friendship are completely different. As her H, you will be working at the friendship, hoping it will help repair things and eventually lead to reconciliation. However, the wayward wife sees it as you being available to her at any moment for any thing she wants. When you get tired of her taking advantage of you, and you pull back just one time........she starts screaming how she thought you wanted to be her friend! So, being a friend to a wayward, is actually just enabling her. The H is trapped in the role of her friend and he can't show his strong stance of a no-nonsense toleration from anyone who plays games, has hidden agendas, acts entitled, and uses others for their own selfish gain.
I will tell you what the wayward wife respects. The man who is stronger than her. The man who she can't order around. The man who doesn't fall for her manipulative tricks. The man who won't put up with her b.s. The man who will laugh at her self entitlement, and flatly refuse to cater to it. The man who doesn't hesitate to call her out for bad behavior. The man who make decisions and can take charge.
If you notice in the previous paragraph, it lists traits that may be related to the bad-boy image. I wasn't even thinking of it when writing it down......but it kind of jumped out at me when I finished. Men have asked why women go for the bad boy types. I don't think any woman wants to choose a person who is bad.......but I think it's b/c she is seeing the other characteristics like those above.
Back to waywards..........they can't respect a man who rolls over and fails to show his backbone. She will test him to see how far she can push him. While she is displaying her disrespect for him and their M..........he must display a firm stance that radiates his male strength that she cannot manipulate, threaten, or bully. There needs to be this span of time where he is giving her a view of him being a man who will not lay down and accept her bad behavior. He is not going to cater after anyone who treats him like cr@p, and especially her. This is what it takes when dealing with a wayward wife.
Once she ends her dispectful activity and shows her willingness to do whatever is necessary to save the MR..........then you can start with the friendship thing. I don't really like to call it that, but I will say friends so you will know what I mean. My take on it is that hundreds of people can qualify as your W's friend. But only one person can hold the position of her husband. Right?
Question...if I show up and she wants to tell me about why she wants a divorce, the reasons behind it, etc, and I validate and empathize...she will likely feel like she has given me the closure she has said she thinks I need.
Won't that, in turn, give her a kind of closure and feeling that she did what she needed to do and can move on and be done talking to me about it?
And if not, how does this strategy lead to another coffee meeting or additional communication?
MWD does not separate the WW from the WAW, and they will tell you to take a soft approach. They suggest you start building or repairing a friendship, empathize, etc.
Since waywardness is based on the absence of respect.......and since the WW is filled with contempt, selfishness, entitlement, manipulation, untrustworthiness, lies, infidelity, etc.............she will not respect a H who is soft and enabling. And almost every WW story I have ever read, the WW will tell the LBH she wants them to be friends! Friendship never works well with a WW, unless you are prepared to end all hope of ever being more than her friend.......and you are willing to be "used" for whatever her mood should dictate, without her giving back.
This is how the friendship works when the W is wayward. Her definition and your definition of friendship are completely different. As her H, you will be working at the friendship, hoping it will help repair things and eventually lead to reconciliation. However, the wayward wife sees it as you being available to her at any moment for any thing she wants. When you get tired of her taking advantage of you, and you pull back just one time........she starts screaming how she thought you wanted to be her friend! So, being a friend to a wayward, is actually just enabling her. The H is trapped in the role of her friend and he can't show his strong stance of a no-nonsense toleration from anyone who plays games, has hidden agendas, acts entitled, and uses others for their own selfish gain.
I will tell you what the wayward wife respects. The man who is stronger than her. The man who she can't order around. The man who doesn't fall for her manipulative tricks. The man who won't put up with her b.s. The man who will laugh at her self entitlement, and flatly refuse to cater to it. The man who doesn't hesitate to call her out for bad behavior. The man who make decisions and can take charge.
If you notice in the previous paragraph, it lists traits that may be related to the bad-boy image. I wasn't even thinking of it when writing it down......but it kind of jumped out at me when I finished. Men have asked why women go for the bad boy types. I don't think any woman wants to choose a person who is bad.......but I think it's b/c she is seeing the other characteristics like those above.
Back to waywards..........they can't respect a man who rolls over and fails to show his backbone. She will test him to see how far she can push him. While she is displaying her disrespect for him and their M..........he must display a firm stance that radiates his male strength that she cannot manipulate, threaten, or bully. There needs to be this span of time where he is giving her a view of him being a man who will not lay down and accept her bad behavior. He is not going to cater after anyone who treats him like cr@p, and especially her. This is what it takes when dealing with a wayward wife.
Once she ends her dispectful activity and shows her willingness to do whatever is necessary to save the MR..........then you can start with the friendship thing. I don't really like to call it that, but I will say friends so you will know what I mean. My take on it is that hundreds of people can qualify as your W's friend. But only one person can hold the position of her husband. Right?
Oh, looks like you snuck in a reply just when I was asking that question. Thank you for your response Sandi! I am so torn between your advice (which aligns with what my friends think I should do) vs the validation. What do you think is the right course of action based on my situation? I can answer any questions to add amplifying information if needed.
It's very frustrating to read that you keep aligning the approach Sandi is talking about as an opposite to validating. Validation is an effective communication skill in and out of these situations. Your attitude suggests you should read through the thread again.
Validation is not agreeing. It is not being a softie. It is LISTENING and giving validity to what someone else feels. She feels what she feels and who are you to tell her that she doesn't?
I read through the validation thread again this morning, I'm frustrated too! I agree that listening and giving validity to her thoughts and feelings is a good thing, but I'm confused when I read what Sandi says because I also agree with her thoughts.
What would an example conversation look like that validates in the manner the validation thread shows but also shows the husband's strength? I think I have trouble seeing how this conversation would play out with my wife. I have no expectations of fixing anything in one sit down, but I don't want to make things worse!
Sorry I'm just not getting it, I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm really just trying to get this to click for me.
Question...if I show up and she wants to tell me about why she wants a divorce, the reasons behind it, etc, and I validate and empathize...she will likely feel like she has given me the closure she has said she thinks I need.
So what if she does? Why are you afraid she would think you were getting closure? Are you afraid it would speed up the D?
It is not uncommon for newcomers to have the same thought pattern you are experiencing. They fear if the WW should think he is having thoughts of ending the M, that it is a guarantee for putting a rush on the divorce. So, they keep pulling on that rope they have tied around her, trying to convince her they can save the M. Pulling tighter causes her to pull the other way, and you essentially have a tug of war. However, if you drop the rope, it ends the tug of war.
You will not change her mind by showing her how much
you want to stay M to her. In fact, it would be better if she really wasn't completely certain of your feelings about her. Stop wearing your heart on your sleeve for her to see, and replace it with a poker face. The H who stops thinking so much about every little word his WW utters, and starts focusing on himself, will begin showing his male confidence and independence.
So what if she does? Why are you afraid she would think you were getting closure? Are you afraid it would speed up the D?
Yeah, pretty much this.
It is not uncommon for newcomers to have the same thought pattern you are experiencing. They fear if the WW should think he is having thoughts of ending the M, that it is a guarantee for putting a rush on the divorce. So, they keep pulling on that rope they have tied around her, trying to convince her they can save the M. Pulling tighter causes her to pull the other way, and you essentially have a tug of war. However, if you drop the rope, it ends the tug of war.
I sincerely want to drop the rope. I have taken a lot of good steps toward this, not begging, not calling, not talking to her family...essentially a lot of your rules (tremendous post btw, thank you for that!).
You will not change her mind by showing her how much you want to stay M to her. In fact, it would be better if she really wasn't completely certain of your feelings about her. Stop wearing your heart on your sleeve for her to see, and replace it with a poker face. The H who stops thinking so much about every little word his WW utters, and starts focusing on himself, will begin showing his male confidence and independence.
This is the very difficult part for me. In a short duration visit, I know I could easily withhold my feelings. However, I have always been very open with her about my feelings and she can read me quite well, if we have a longer sit down I suspect I would have a terrible difficulty in maintaining that poker face. Which is exactly why I am struggling with these ideas of validation and strength.
This is the very difficult part for me. In a short duration visit, I know I could easily withhold my feelings. However, I have always been very open with her about my feelings and she can read me quite well, if we have a longer sit down I suspect I would have a terrible difficulty in maintaining that poker face. Which is exactly why I am struggling with these ideas of validation and strength.
Are you saying since she reads you so well, you might as well blabber about your feelings? You are not a puppet who has no control over his own body. Can you not keep your mouth closed and not break down in tears in front of her? If you just have to give her that little meeting she wants, then you call the place and time. I suggest somewhere public.....to help control bad behavior from her and help keep your emotions in check. Then just listen. That's all you have to do. You can validate by saying, "I hear what you are saying", or just nod your head. You don't have to kiss her rear. You don't try, again, to change her mind. If things start to get out of hand, then immediately inform her the meeting is over, and quickly exit. Can you not do that?
Remember, you do not have to agree to anything. You are there to
hear what
she has to say. If she tries to talk you into signing something, or whatever, tell her you agreed to hear her out and that's all. Anything else you will have to think about it.
You are the 180 Man, so
do a 180 and don't be an open book with her. Let her wonder what you are thinking/feeling.
Are you saying since she reads you so well, you might as well blabber about your feelings?
Well, not quite. I just worry the temptation will be too easy for me to want to be open with her and express all of my thoughts and feelings. I've always had the feeling that being open and honest in our relationship with how we're feeling is the best path, so I worry I would revert back to that.
You are not a puppet who has no control over his own body. Can you not keep your mouth closed and not break down in tears in front of her?
I won't break down in tears, but opening my mouth is what I'm worried about.
If you just have to give her that little meeting she wants, then you call the place and time. I suggest somewhere public.....to help control bad behavior from her and help keep your emotions in check.
Yep, already done. She wanted to meet this past Wednesday at a coffee shop and time which she had picked. Told her I was busy, gave her a date a week later. She was busy at that proposed time/date due to a work trip. She said when she would be back, so I emailed back and proposed a new time and date at a totally different coffee shop, to which she agreed.
Then just listen. That's all you have to do. You can validate by saying, "I hear what you are saying", or just nod your head. You don't have to kiss her rear. You don't try, again, to change her mind. If things start to get out of hand, then immediately inform her the meeting is over, and quickly exit. Can you not do that?
Remember, you do not have to agree to anything. You are there to hear what she has to say. If she tries to talk you into signing something, or whatever, tell her you agreed to hear her out and that's all. Anything else you will have to think about it.
You are the 180 Man, so do a 180 and don't be an open book with her. Let her wonder what you are thinking/feeling.
Yes, I think I can do this. I just thought your posts on how to treat a WW conflicted with the validation approach. She is not quite a WW in the sense that the A has been over since Nov and she has been renting a room from a single mom (I kicked her out when I first learned what happened...tried to get her to move home as we worked through counseling but she said it didn't feel like the right time yet...and that time never came because she asked for a D 5 weeks ago). But anyways, it was confusing for me to see how to approach her and visualize how the conversation might go. I know I'm probably over thinking this, but I want to go prepared and ready to handle it.
What would an example conversation look like that validates in the manner the validation thread shows but also shows the husband's strength? I think I have trouble seeing how this conversation would play out with my wife.
You say you are going to be 'strong'.
Maybe start with your examples of what you think she may say and how youd respond?
You say you are going to be 'strong'.
Maybe start with your examples of what you think she may say and how youd respond?
Okay, that's a good idea. I will just try a handful for now...in no particular order...
Her: How are you?
Me: Really good.
Her: How's work?
Me: Pretty good, I've started a new position that's a lot more engaging and I'm back working on X project which I'm pretty excited about.
Her: So what have you been up to?
Me: (do i tell her what i've been doing to GAL or withhold it?...not sure how to approach this?)
Me: How's work?
Her: Really busy, we're doing x, y, and z and our schedule has been crazy. Etc.
Me: X, y,
and Z? Wow, that's a lot to deal with and must be very stressful.
Her: I'm changing my phone number
Me: Okay. Let me know when it's done and I'll take you off our plan.
Her: I think we've grown apart. We have been great roommates and great friends, but we just can't make each other happy any more.
Me: I'm so sorry that you felt unloved and disconnected from me. I never stopped loving you, but I guess I didn't express myself well enough. When did you start to feel this way?
Her: I started to feel this way around X time when Y happened.
Me: I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can see how that would have made you feel
Her: I'm moving to country/state X (this is highly likely, btw, possibly as soon as summer).
Me: Oh, that should be really interesting
OR Oh, that sounds like it'll be kinda shitty (depending on where it is...)
Her: How's the dog?
Me: She's doing great (but misses you? do I play that card?)
Her: (If she says something about the house)
Me: Look, that's not what I came here to talk about. I've been thinking about it, but I'm not ready to deal with a decision that big.
Her: (If she says something about the finances)
Me: That's not what I came here to talk about, I've been thinking about it, but i'm ready to delve into that
Her: (If she says something about the few things she has left in the house (she already took most of her stuff while I was out of town helping her family with a medical emergency...yup, shitty)
Me: It bothers me when you come to the house when I'm not there. I gave you a key for a very different reason. Of course you can have your stuff whenever you want, but please tell me when. (I changed the locks the first weekend after finding out about the A. We had already bought new locks for the whole house so I just put them on. About two weeks later I gave her a key in counseling and told her there was no pressure but I wanted her to know she had the option to come home whenever she felt it was right).
Her: (If she comes back and says something like...it's our house, i'm still paying for half of it, I can come whenever I want...)
Me: You are and you can come whenever, but i'm asking you to respect my privacy and come when I'm there.
As I'm typing these I really become filled with doubt. What is validation going to lead to? I have coffee with her, validate her to the best of my ability, attempt to end the meeting at my discretion if able, and then....what happens? She's going to email me again asking for another coffee date? I just don't see it. I understand that getting us both in the same room after five or six weeks of not seeing each other is a good thing, but how does this lead to a second meeting?
Thank you for reading through this. I really appreciate any feedback you guys have time to give.
180 - great scripting. Im keeping this for myself.
The point is to have many DB opportunities over time. Its a marathon, not a sprint. So yes, if she asks for coffee again, thats good and yet another time to surprise her with more validating statements that are DBing opportunities.
Hey 180,
This isn't just about validating W feelings. This is about you projecting that you are going to be okay regardless of what happens here (you know that right? If you end up D, you will be okay.). If she asks about what you are doing, don't give specifics, be vague. Don't tell her you want her back and will help her move back in. She already knows that.
Has there been a time during this process that W has ever felt like she may be losing you? A little after the A was discovered, but after that?
And you are going to ask if that just doesn't make it seem like you are ok with the D and accepting it. That's fear, and you can't let it rule you. The point is to move from the pursuer to the pursued.
Hey 180,
This isn't just about validating W feelings. This is about you projecting that you are going to be okay regardless of what happens here (you know that right? If you end up D, you will be okay.). If she asks about what you are doing, don't give specifics, be vague. Don't tell her you want her back and will help her move back in. She already knows that.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah...I
guess I know that. This morning at work I was feeling pretty good, even thinking about some minor career moves/contacts I could make this week to help me down the road. But then I went to grab some lunch and it hit me again. I think part of her reasoning for D is she thinks I would be better off without her and that makes me sad. And of course even more sad if I start to think about her deciding for herself that she'd be better off without me. Came home just now and the dog was here waiting for me, she has certainly been affected by my W's absence. And there's the house...which, like any house, has stuff that needs to be fixed and it can feel overwhelming at times.
But...I'm going to clean the kitchen, go to the gym, and then keep working on my to-do list the rest of the night. Need to find an open mic night, hopefully sometime this week. Going to clean my sports car which has been collecting dust in the garage since this all started. Need to find a hair stylist who can give me a proper haircut rather than the standard buzz cut I normally get. Take the dog to the dog park. Maybe play some video games. That should get me through the rest of the day and hopefully tomorrow will be just a little bit better, and so on...
Has there been a time during this process that W has ever felt like she may be losing you? A little after the A was discovered, but after that?
Immediately after the A was discovered, but other than that, no. I see what you mean, you make a really good point. I was thinking about how to end our upcoming conversation (Monday) on the drive home today. I need to find some polite yet firm words that I can use. Initially I was thinking something like
"Okay, it was nice seeing you, we should both go think about what we've talked about and sit down for coffee again," but now I'm more inclined toward
"Okay, it was nice seeing you, I'm going to think about what we've talked about. Bye." No
"see you later" or
"we should meet again for coffee," because even though this is a minor and seemingly innocent statement, it will take away from me going dark immediately thereafter. I also need to figure out how to end the conversation at a time of my choosing without interrupting her or being awkward about the timing. Or maybe I'm over-thinking it again...
And you are going to ask if that just doesn't make it seem like you are ok with the D and accepting it. That's fear, and you can't let it rule you. The point is to move from the pursuer to the pursued.
Yes, I have recently read the sticky thread about pursuer/distancer and also saw it in a book I was reading in December (I think it was in "Hold Me Tight" but I've read so much lately it's hard to keep track. Good book, either way, but Emotionally Focused Therapy is a hard approach for an emotional avoider to buy off on....just ask my wife!). Anyways, I'll probably read through it again, I think that is exactly what's going on. I was on the phone with my friend last night talking about this and stumbled on an email from my W from 2010. She was upset at me at the time for being the distancer -- I was slow to get into this relationship initially because I was hung up on ex-gf baggage. I guess I know how my W felt now...
You say you are going to be 'strong'.
Maybe start with your examples of what you think she may say and how youd respond?
Okay, got a few more of these I have been thinking about today. I need some help with some of them.
Her: Are you still going to church?
Me: Yes (this is the truth and I don't think there's much else to say...)
Her: I want you to sign these divorce papers
Me: I agreed to come to hear you out, that's all. I'll have to think about it. (take them or not??)
Her: If she tries to give me her rings back
Me: No I gave them to you, those are yours forever, I don't need them back.
Her: I've been worried about you hurting yourself.
Me: Thanks, but I'm doing fine. (And yes, DB, I am fine. I was pretty distraught at first and her step-mother violated my trust and told my W how I was immediately after it happened. Grrrr, inlaws! I didn't have a choice, step-mom was there immediately after my W dropped the bomb and stayed with me at the house for a week. She flew out from the other side of the country to support me specifically. Amazing woman, heart in the right place, but...not helpful to have her trying to be the middle man.)
Her: Are you thinking about telling my boss what happened? (this would ruin her and OM's careers)
Me: What you tell your boss is none of my business anymore
Her: What questions do you have?
OR Do you have any questions for me?
Me: No, the facts seem pretty clear.
Backup plan to redirect the conversation: How's your step-father doing? (he had a stroke a few weeks ago) Open to additional ideas for changing the subject.
How to end the conversation on my terms without being awkward?
Me: Ok, this has been a really good conversation. I'm going to go home and think about things. See you later. (if SHE goes in for a hug, just give her a regular friend type hug) Is "See you later" too much, should I use "Take care of yourself" instead? That seems somewhat final...
Ones I don't have good answers to....
Her: I think you should date other women
Me: .....
Her: I think we should just be friends
Me: .....
And I know this has been covered on DB before and I'm going to go back and read some of those threads again, but...do I wear my ring? I know it's a personal choice. I'm wearing it now, it means a lot to me. Not the ring itself, I'm actually wearing an $8 silicon ring I bought last summer so I don't lose my finger at work, but the meaning of the ring is important to me. That being said, I think not wearing it may enhance the mysteriousness of what I'm thinking. Yes, no?
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
Lots of good responses to
ForGump's first thread about wearing your ring or not. I will continue wearing it until D is final, I'm wearing it right now. But I am leaning toward taking it off for this coffee meeting. Sounds weird, I guess, but I think it's probably the right move and will support how I act/react when I go in there to validate and show her I'm doing just fine.
Still looking for feedback on the other stuff in my posts above. Ty!
Lots of good responses to
ForGump's first thread about wearing your ring or not. I will continue wearing it until D is final, I'm wearing it right now. But I am leaning toward taking it off for this coffee meeting. Sounds weird, I guess, but I think it's probably the right move and will support how I act/react when I go in there to validate and show her I'm doing just fine.
Still looking for feedback on the other stuff in my posts above. Ty!
Haven't had a chance to really review all of your posts but this is a dumb move. Wear it or don't wear it. Don't use it to try to get a reaction out of her. This is about your personal decision and what being married and wearing a ring symbolizes to you.
How to end the conversation on my terms without being awkward?
Me: Ok, this has been a really good conversation. I'm going to go home and think about things. See you later. (if SHE goes in for a hug, just give her a regular friend type hug) Is "See you later" too much, should I use "Take care of yourself" instead? That seems somewhat final...
I like your response - "This conversations has been good. Thank you. Talk to you later."
Just like you would say to a business colleague.
Ones I don't have good answers to....
Her: I think you should date other women
Me: .....
Her: I think we should just be friends
Me: .....
Her: I think you should date other women
You: I appreciate your thoughts, but the joy in my life is not your responsibility. I'm going to do what I need to do to make myself happy.
My DB coach gave me this line for a similar situation.Her: I think we should just be friends
You: I look forward to us us always being amicable.
Hi 180,
Be careful not to script this so much in your mind that you get thrown if you haven't planned a response. And you always have "I'll have to think about that." or something similar. You don't have to answer anything. And have no expectations on this meeting.
Have you ordered any of the books? Go with DR to start.
Have you talked with a lawyer? Don't fear talking to a lawyer. Knowledge is power.
Originally Posted By: 180Man
Ones I don't have good answers to....
Her: I think you should date other women
Me: .....Great idea.
Her: I think we should just be friends
Me: .....No thanks.
Haven't had a chance to really review all of your posts but this is a dumb move. Wear it or don't wear it. Don't use it to try to get a reaction out of her. This is about your personal decision and what being married and wearing a ring symbolizes to you.
Yes, you're 100% right. It means everything to me. It hurts to think about it. I backslid this afternoon a good bit after re-reading a note she left me when she came to get her things while I was gone helping her family. Mistake.
H,
Welcome back. Glad you made it back safe from xx. Thank you again for all of the love and support you showed everyone while you were there - I know they are so grateful for the help in such a tragic, hectic time.
I know this is so hard and I'm sorry. I felt like separating my stuff from yours while you weren't here to witness it happening was the best thing for both of us. I wish there was an easier way to go our own ways, but right now - this is the best I can do.
I've tried to leave the house as clean and homey as possible. I didn't like the idea of you being uncomfortable here, so I put all of the "us" things in this gray trunk for you to do with what you need or want to do. I wanted you to have the option to do this your own way - not just on my terms.
I will still answer any questions for you or do whatever you need to understand what has happened and have some closure. I know this is the best for both of us - even if it is hard to see that clearly right now.
Please continue to do the positive, healthy things you need to do to take care of yourself. I care for you very much and want to see you be happy.
Love, W
And I'm thinking this whole afternoon that it's not going to matter what the hell I do, she cares about me and thinks she's doing what's best for both of us. If I show up to this meeting and give the appearance of doing well, validating, etc, it isn't going to matter -- in fact, she said right there she wants to see me happy. So...she sees me "happy" on Monday and she can wash her hands of the whole thing.
I know, my thoughts revolve completely around her. It wasn't that way the first half of the day, I was doing okay until I read that note.
So, back to your ring feedback, my thoughts this morning when I read what you wrote were that I am trying to do my best to GAL and show up to this coffee meeting as happy as I can be. Even if that is faking it till I make it for the time being, I understand this is good for me and really the only valid approach toward my wife at this point in time. And if that's the case, then showing up in clothes that she didn't buy me is a good idea, both for me as a confidence booster and something she will notice. Same for the haircut. Same for the ring. Not to get a rise out of her, I guarantee she won't say anything about any of it, but I was thinking that presenting myself in the manner in which I wish to be perceived is the first step. That's all I was thinking.
Of course right now I'm discouraged from reading her letter. And maybe you're right. I don't know. There are times when it still blows my mind that this is happening and it seems like anything can ignite these thoughts -- seeing a kid and his dad ride bikes down the street, watching our dog curl up on her side of the bed, it doesn't take much.
But, as you guys and my best friend is likely to tell me...stop being a bitch! Suck it up, be the man she met again, not the wet [censored] blanket you've turned into. Yup, I get it. Doesn't make it any easier. But I'm trying, even if it doesn't sound like it right now. If you're going through this and happen to be reading this, I highly recommend the gym. Definitely felt better after going tonight and I've certainly felt better these past three weeks by going pretty much every day. It can sound like a daunting task, but just go.
How to end the conversation on my terms without being awkward?
Me: Ok, this has been a really good conversation. I'm going to go home and think about things. See you later. (if SHE goes in for a hug, just give her a regular friend type hug) Is "See you later" too much, should I use "Take care of yourself" instead? That seems somewhat final...
I like your response - "This conversations has been good. Thank you. Talk to you later."
Just like you would say to a business colleague.Thanks for the feedback man, I really appreciate it and it does help. I noticed from your sig that it seems you're in a similar spot, I'll be sure to swing by your thread and try to give you some of the same support you've given me!
Hi 180,
Be careful not to script this so much in your mind that you get thrown if you haven't planned a response. And you always have "I'll have to think about that." or something similar. You don't have to answer anything. And have no expectations on this meeting.
Have you ordered any of the books? Go with DR to start.
Have you talked with a lawyer? Don't fear talking to a lawyer. Knowledge is power.
Thanks Deckard. I definitely understand the potential pitfalls of scripting it like this, but it really has helped me think about the conversation and figure out what I should and shouldn't say. If I go in cold, I am likely to get thrown at most of what she says! At least with this I'll have studied what types of responses are validating and what are not. I can read the validation thread all day long, but it really helps me to see the examples in reference to my own situation. If I have to shoot from the hip on 75% of our discussion, that's better than 100%! I also overthink things so that doesn't help.
I was trying to figure out which book to start with, but now I know! Thank you!
I have read on the internet about some of the legal stuff, but I haven't talked to any lawyers. It's probably denial and fear. If you haven't noticed, I have been battling a lot of fear throughout this. It's been getting better, but still there. I will keep this advice in mind and try to get myself to do it this week. Ugh.
Her: I think you should date other women
You: I appreciate your thoughts, but the joy in my life is not your responsibility. I'm going to do what I need to do to make myself happy. My DB coach gave me this line for a similar situation.
Her: I think we should just be friends
You: I look forward to us us always being amicable.
Her: I think you should date other women
Me: .....Great idea.
Her: I think we should just be friends
Me: .....No thanks.
Thank you both for your feedback on these, that really really helped!
How do you guys deal with coming home to an empty house?
Or...something will happen during my day and I'll think...I want to tell my W about that, and before the thought is even finished I am interrupted with this new reality of shittiness.
I am back sliding again today. I need to stop, I need to get my head in the game before our meeting on Monday. Time for the gym again, I guess.
How do you guys deal with coming home to an empty house?
Or...something will happen during my day and I'll think...I want to tell my W about that, and before the thought is even finished I am interrupted with this new reality of shittiness.
I am back sliding again today. I need to stop, I need to get my head in the game before our meeting on Monday. Time for the gym again, I guess.
There's no easy way to deal with those things. I always came home to an empty house because my W would work later than me. But I start to get an uneasiness around the time she'd get home. I try to occupy myself, reading, phone conversation with a friend.
It's hard when your W is the person you want to reach out to when something happens and you can't anymore. Scrolling through the directory on my house phone, I see her name and almost hit dial all the time. It's like, oh yeah, that's who I want to talk to. Then I have to stop myself. It's a void that can't be filled and hopefully gets better over time.
Im not looking forward to this part of my future. Its going to be hard when she moves out and its her time with the kids.
How do you guys deal with coming home to an empty house?
Do you have a pet? Even something small might be helpful.
Also, how is your house decorated? Can you make it more of a 'man' place with some art or photos you like? What about furniture?
Also, how about smells? Is there a scent you can get for relaxation or something?
Do you have a pet? Even something small might be helpful.
Also, how is your house decorated? Can you make it more of a 'man' place with some art or photos you like? What about furniture?
Also, how about smells? Is there a scent you can get for relaxation or something?
Yup, we have a dog we raised from 6 weeks old. She's about 5.5 now. She's a great dog, boggles my mind that my W can just walk away from her for the rest of her life. Or either of us, for that matter, haha.
House is still pretty much decorated like it was when W and I did it together. She took down all the photos of us together, but overall it's mostly the same. The damn paint colors on the walls reminds me of her, it [censored].
I have seriously considered renting the house and moving into an RV. I don't need much...bed, computer, some place for tools, clothes....
My friends supported this idea at first, but they seem to have changed their minds recently. Also, I guess it makes me look weak by running away. She's probably not going to want to come back to a man who lives in an RV....right?
I hadn't thought about smells. I'd have to think about that. The smell of tires? The smell of exhaust on a cold morning? Probably not things that I want in the house. Maybe incense is a good idea though! Actually, I might do that, thanks for that!
I bought DR and it came in last night. Been reading it since then, it's very good so far. Glad you guys pushed me to get it. Got a great haircut today, I found a place that serves beer while you get your hair cut. That was pretty cool. Went to dinner with my buddy tonight. Tomorrow I'm going to wash the car and get my nice clothes ready for Monday. Probably do some repairs around the house. I'm not fully confident that I've got it together for Monday yet and I'm not sure if I will feel "ready" for it, but I am feeling better than yesterday. DR + Gym + Beer seems to be helping.
Is there any particular part in DR I should skip ahead to for right now in preparation for the meeting with my W on Monday? I'd like to finish it before then, but I'm not sure I'll be able to.
Okay, got another one...tell me what you think?
Her: I want to give you closure
Me: I appreciate you wanting to be so open and honest with me. I came here to listen, but you can't give me closure.
Am I sort of getting this? Way off?
Just finished church. I watched online (they stream it) so I wouldn't run into my wife in case she went. Our meeting is tomorrow, so I figured there's no reason to preempt it.
Anyways, not here to proselytize AT ALL. That's not my style by a long shot. Could care less what anyone else's religion or beliefs are unless they're causing harm. Anyways... I thought it was especially timely ahead of my meeting with my wife tomorrow for the pastor's message to be about listening. Just thought I would share for anyone stumbling across this who may be in a similar boat: Matthew 13:9: Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.
That's it, he talked about active listening with your spouse and with God a couple of the passages after that one. I just thought it was a great message delivered right on time for me.
So anyways, still open to feedback before I meet with her tomorrow night. I know at this point I probably know everything I need to know and just need to stop over-thinking it. I'll be fine. Got clean clothes, great haircut, clean car, positive mental attitude (mostly!), and I'm going to do my best to listen, understand, validate, set boundaries for myself if certain topics come up, not confuse validation with agreement, avoid letting her know what I'm thinking, and be the one to end the conversation and leave on my own timeline. I got this shít!
I can't help but be fascinated at the similar characteristics in LBH'S. The chatty ones are going to use way too many words every time he opens his mouth to his W.
My suggestion is to remember you will be there at
her called meeting. If she called it, then she has a reason for it. If you are there to hear her..........stop practicing the usage so many words. If you can't put your thoughts to bed, then at least practice using as few words as possible in your responses.
By using so many words, it causes the LBS to appear too eager, and maybe desparate.