Previous Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2726370&#Post2726370 Brief Summary: Been getting a little better with my communications with WW but made a mistake after feeling like I upset her. Everyone gave some light hearted 2x4's and now time to keep on keeping on. Hopefully if a situation like that comes up again I will handle it better. I really suck at this, but improving little by little I suppose.
You've got to move on, man.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeease be careful with this advice.
You're right.
I don't mean move on to the next relationship and keep being your old self.
What meant is: move forward, work on becoming a better person, detach and GAL.
You've got to move on, man.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeease be careful with this advice.
You're right.
I don't mean move on to the next relationship and keep being your old self.
What meant is: move forward, work on becoming a better person, detach and GAL.
Oh sure...now you backtrack...after I just downloaded Tinder, Bumble, and every other dating app in the app store. :p
^^^Just joking in case anyone didn't get that
Hi Laowai, you don't suck at this - from your post on your last thread. We've all been where you are and it takes time to get into your stride. The main thing is to keep taking on board the feedback and moving forward.
Glad you are looking into Meetups. I never actually went to a Meetup - but have done a lot of other stuff. Dancing is a good one - or a support group for separated people? Volunteering? Sporting Clubs....I found it hard at first, but once you get started I found that one activity can lead to another. You start going to dancing and someone there goes to choir, and you give that a try too. I can be out almost every night if I choose and I dial it back sometimes as I can get overtired
The benefit to your situation is that you start to experience a viable life beyond your current situation. Over time you start to enjoy some things you do and you become genuinely less available to your spouse too - and think about them a little less because you have plans...it really does help, which is why it is pushed here so much.
I think your W is doing a little temp checking lately and your challenge is to manage your reaction to that and stay a steady course. Post here before responding if you need to. I used to say to myself - I won't respond for an hour, or before I had some feedback, which slowed me down a little.
Anyway...you're doing just fine
Its a long road with a lot of bumps and pot holes along the way,we are all learning along the way we have up days we have down days,we all have days when we make mistakes,we are human after all,but hopefully with god willing and All the good people here and the great help and advice they give,we will get there in the end,a place where we are happy like we once was,with or without our lost spouses,we just have to standup and deal with it,go with the flow,
Hi Laowai, you don't suck at this - from your post on your last thread. We've all been where you are and it takes time to get into your stride. The main thing is to keep taking on board the feedback and moving forward.
Glad you are looking into Meetups. I never actually went to a Meetup - but have done a lot of other stuff. Dancing is a good one - or a support group for separated people? Volunteering? Sporting Clubs....I found it hard at first, but once you get started I found that one activity can lead to another. You start going to dancing and someone there goes to choir, and you give that a try too. I can be out almost every night if I choose and I dial it back sometimes as I can get overtired
The benefit to your situation is that you start to experience a viable life beyond your current situation. Over time you start to enjoy some things you do and you become genuinely less available to your spouse too - and think about them a little less because you have plans...it really does help, which is why it is pushed here so much.
I think your W is doing a little temp checking lately and your challenge is to manage your reaction to that and stay a steady course. Post here before responding if you need to. I used to say to myself - I won't respond for an hour, or before I had some feedback, which slowed me down a little.
Anyway...you're doing just fine
Ok, W just texted and asked why I don't want to go this weekend because when this was discussed a few weeks ago I was pretty set on going so we could all go bowling. What should I say?
Maybe I should also add that I DO WANT to go. I would love to go bowling with the family, I would get to spend some time with my nieces who I abolutely adore (and they adore me), and I could go visit my WW's grandma who is in a nursing home by herself and would love to see me (or anyone). But a small part of me also wants to go just to be around my WW which I know is stupid...especially considering she is still in an A and basically discarded me.
For me, I wasn't willing (or really didn't feel able) to spend 'family' time with XH and SS - though XH did suggest it a month or two after BD. For me, he was actively in an A with OW and I couldn't have borne to do it - I guess it was an absolute boundary for me. Not me being ornery - I just couldn't offer that at that time. I did and do however keep in touch with SS and he and I meet up every couple of months or so.
Actually, the rest of XH's family dropped away and I was pretty devastated at that. To feel censure from them given all circumstances. I reached out to them once or twice, but got no response - that was difficult. I guess I'm trying to say that her 'side' of the family may or may not want to stay in touch - and if they do, you may want to keep in touch with them separately - or you may not - that's how it works.
How acceptable and manageable is it for you to go on an outing with her given all circumstances. I feel it would be perfectly acceptable to say - hey, if you're in a relationship with someone else, I really don't want to spend time with you. That's what I would do actually - but what you do is up to you of course and perhaps wait for other perspectives before you respond.
I hadn't realised until I read back that your W read your previous threads here and you have linked back to them. Are you concerned that this could happen again?
I think the problem is having sex with her then saying "I don't feel comfortable spending time with you while you are in a relationship with someone else" really conveys the message that sex is ok while you are with someone else, but spending time together out of the bedroom isn't.
Either way, you must be consistent.
For the love of God, I mixed to posts together. This is what happens when I try to pretend to work and post. My sincere apologies.
If you want to go, go. If you don't want to go, don't.
it is actually kind of simple. If going makes you feel good to be spending time with the family without expectations from the ex, then go. If you have expectations then I wouldn't.
For me, I wasn't willing (or really didn't feel able) to spend 'family' time with XH and SS - though XH did suggest it a month or two after BD. For me, he was actively in an A with OW and I couldn't have borne to do it - I guess it was an absolute boundary for me. Not me being ornery - I just couldn't offer that at that time. I did and do however keep in touch with SS and he and I meet up every couple of months or so.
Actually, the rest of XH's family dropped away and I was pretty devastated at that. To feel censure from them given all circumstances. I reached out to them once or twice, but got no response - that was difficult. I guess I'm trying to say that her 'side' of the family may or may not want to stay in touch - and if they do, you may want to keep in touch with them separately - or you may not - that's how it works.
How acceptable and manageable is it for you to go on an outing with her given all circumstances. I feel it would be perfectly acceptable to say - hey, if you're in a relationship with someone else, I really don't want to spend time with you. That's what I would do actually - but what you do is up to you of course and perhaps wait for other perspectives before you respond.
I hadn't realised until I read back that your W read your previous threads here and you have linked back to them. Are you concerned that this could happen again?
I suppose that is certainly a concern, but I don't know how to mitigate it other than just stop posting here.
This it is actually kind of simple. If going makes you feel good to be spending time with the family without expectations from the ex, then go. If you have expectations then I wouldn't.
What do you mean by expectations? Like expectations for R talk or sex or something?
This it is actually kind of simple. If going makes you feel good to be spending time with the family without expectations from the ex, then go. If you have expectations then I wouldn't.
What do you mean by expectations? Like expectations for R talk or sex or something?
Expectations of anything more than having a good time bowling
To mitigate, I guess you would need to start posting again with a different name and no links. Plus, you would change some key circumstances of your situation - you've been M 4 years not 3, you have a cat not a dog, you live in Canada not the US and so on.
Of course, you want to post exactly what has been said. But for me I paraphrased. Instead of posting - "I want to pick up the dog at 4pm" I would post - he told me he wants to collect the dog later today etc..
Not answering for Ginger, but to me having no expectations would mean enjoying an outing purely for what it is - time with extended family or whatever - and having no expectation of anything positive or negative from your W.
The thing to think about is the impact on the dynamic you are trying to create. You are using LRT right? Letting her go, living your own life, not initiating contact etc...are you in a strong enough place to see her for an outing like that without undoing some of the good work you have been doing?
But a small part of me also wants to go just to be around my WW which I know is stupid...especially considering she is still in an A and basically discarded me.
Hey I just wanted to say that this takes some strength and integrity to admit. I admire that.
I would, and do, often feel the same way. It's human to feel that way.
Well, had an interesting text exchange, and I know I did poorly and honestly I am ok with that this time. I asked her can't she answer me on whether she WANTS me to go or not. It blew up from there, but essentially I got frustrated that she wouldn't answer the question and honestly I feel like I was talking to a teenager. It was kind of depressing actually. Seriously, an entitled teenager is how I would describe that conversation. Now I'm frustrated, I want her to feel some of what I feel!!!!!!!!!! It's just not fair.
We are 6+ months into this, and she can't make a decision as to whether she would like me to be with her and the family for the weekend...how the heck is she EVER going to be able to decide if she wants to try to work on our M/R...
I get upset about stuff like this frequently with her, and it makes me feel angry. Then for some reason my brain goes back to our engagement photos, the wedding, the honeymoon, the New Year's eve kisses, the photos from traveling, and so many more great memories. It's so conflicting! How can she throw all of that away!?!?!?!?!?!?
Well, had an interesting text exchange, and I know I did poorly and honestly I am ok with that this time. I asked her can't she answer me on whether she WANTS me to go or not. It blew up from there, but essentially I got frustrated that she wouldn't answer the question and honestly I feel like I was talking to a teenager. It was kind of depressing actually. Seriously, an entitled teenager is how I would describe that conversation. Now I'm frustrated, I want her to feel some of what I feel!!!!!!!!!! It's just not fair.
watch OUT, 2X4'S COMING.....
Ok, not 2x4's, but a constructive way of looking at this.
You are asking a pressure loaded question where you are looking for a response that might convey something she isn't ready to convey right now.
She asked you to go. That should have been enough. Then it was on you to decide if you want to go, not on the terms her wanting you there. She bounced the ball to you asking if you wanted to go, and you bounced it right back at her asking her if she wanted you to go. That is a GAME.
You are both guilty there, I'm afraid. You threw your own fit when she wouldn't tell you if she wanted you to go. You were both acting like entitled teenagers. You felt entitled to an answer to that loaded question, and she felt entitled to not hving to give you answer.
but this does answer the question on whether you should go or not.
Like I said, you should go if you were going to enjoy some bowling and nothing more.
you should go if you were going to enjoy some bowling and nothing more.
I agree. He will to have to control any feelings and go without hope/expectations.
Well, had an interesting text exchange, and I know I did poorly and honestly I am ok with that this time. I asked her can't she answer me on whether she WANTS me to go or not. It blew up from there, but essentially I got frustrated that she wouldn't answer the question and honestly I feel like I was talking to a teenager. It was kind of depressing actually. Seriously, an entitled teenager is how I would describe that conversation. Now I'm frustrated, I want her to feel some of what I feel!!!!!!!!!! It's just not fair.
She actually never asked me if I wanted to go. A few weeks ago she said she would go on 1/21. I said "oh, I would like to go...go bowling or something fun if you think that would be ok" She didn't agree or disagree. She only said "I'm sure my parents would be fine with that" (her parents don't even know we are separated or having issues...). Then this week she just says "Did you think about the trip; if you are going or not?"
So, I kind of invited myself a few weeks ago...she never really invited me.
watch OUT, 2X4'S COMING.....
Ok, not 2x4's, but a constructive way of looking at this.
You are asking a pressure loaded question where you are looking for a response that might convey something she isn't ready to convey right now.
She asked you to go. That should have been enough. Then it was on you to decide if you want to go, not on the terms her wanting you there. She bounced the ball to you asking if you wanted to go, and you bounced it right back at her asking her if she wanted you to go. That is a GAME.
You are both guilty there, I'm afraid. You threw your own fit when she wouldn't tell you if she wanted you to go. You were both acting like entitled teenagers. You felt entitled to an answer to that loaded question, and she felt entitled to not hving to give you answer.
but this does answer the question on whether you should go or not.
Like I said, you should go if you were going to enjoy some bowling and nothing more.
Well, had an interesting text exchange, and I know I did poorly and honestly I am ok with that this time. I asked her can't she answer me on whether she WANTS me to go or not. It blew up from there, but essentially I got frustrated that she wouldn't answer the question and honestly I feel like I was talking to a teenager. It was kind of depressing actually. Seriously, an entitled teenager is how I would describe that conversation. Now I'm frustrated, I want her to feel some of what I feel!!!!!!!!!! It's just not fair.
watch OUT, 2X4'S COMING.....
Ok, not 2x4's, but a constructive way of looking at this.
You are asking a pressure loaded question where you are looking for a response that might convey something she isn't ready to convey right now.
She asked you to go. That should have been enough. Then it was on you to decide if you want to go, not on the terms her wanting you there. She bounced the ball to you asking if you wanted to go, and you bounced it right back at her asking her if she wanted you to go. That is a GAME.
You are both guilty there, I'm afraid. You threw your own fit when she wouldn't tell you if she wanted you to go. You were both acting like entitled teenagers. You felt entitled to an answer to that loaded question, and she felt entitled to not hving to give you answer.
but this does answer the question on whether you should go or not.
Like I said, you should go if you were going to enjoy some bowling and nothing more.
Sorry for the bad quote above:
She actually never asked me if I wanted to go. A few weeks ago she said she would go on 1/21. I said "oh, I would like to go...go bowling or something fun if you think that would be ok" She didn't agree or disagree. She only said "I'm sure my parents would be fine with that" (her parents don't even know we are separated or having issues...). Then this week she just says "Did you think about the trip; if you are going or not?"
So, I kind of invited myself a few weeks ago...she never really invited me.
Regardless, be man up and make a decision and stop doing everything based upon what she wants. make some decisions on what would feel right for you.
Remember, she got cranky when you decided not to go?
So, first you invited yourself, then you uninvited yourself, then you asked her if she wanted you there. I can see where she might be frustrated.
Making decisions and standing by them shows your confidence.
You are leaving your decisions in HER hands.
PRESSURE!
All that being said, ia m not undermining your frustration. I think you are both frustrated. You've just got to drop pressure and pursuit and frustration. For you, if anything.
Regardless, be man up and make a decision and stop doing everything based upon what she wants. make some decisions on what would feel right for you.
Remember, she got cranky when you decided not to go?
So, first you invited yourself, then you uninvited yourself, then you asked her if she wanted you there. I can see where she might be frustrated.
Making decisions and standing by them shows your confidence.
You are leaving your decisions in HER hands.
PRESSURE!
Thanks for opening my eyes to a different way of seeing this. I saw it as me finding out if she actually wants me there with her. I mean I wouldn't want to go and make her miserable because she didn't want me there...regardless of "what I want". I want to be around people that want to be around me. I hate thinking about my nieces seeing her and asking where is Uncle Laowai...it breaks my heart. The overwhelming reality is that it may be this way from this point on for them
I want to be around people that want to be around me. I hate thinking about my nieces seeing her and asking where is Uncle Laowai...it breaks my heart. The overwhelming reality is that it may be this way from this point on for them frown
Be very careful in this way of thinking. I thought the same thing up until a few days ago. I won't reveal the incident for a bit, but what I thought was one of the people "who really wanted me around" turned out to be a snake in the grass, and a vicious one at that. In reality and at the end of the day, her family will choose her first and foremost. Keep that in mind.
I want to be around people that want to be around me. I hate thinking about my nieces seeing her and asking where is Uncle Laowai...it breaks my heart. The overwhelming reality is that it may be this way from this point on for them frown
Be very careful in this way of thinking. I thought the same thing up until a few days ago. I won't reveal the incident for a bit, but what I thought was one of the people "who really wanted me around" turned out to be a snake in the grass, and a vicious one at that. In reality and at the end of the day, her family will choose her first and foremost. Keep that in mind.
Ditto what Jeep said. Always bear in mind that blood is thicker than water...
Well, yesterday went about as terribly as possible. W came by to swap dogs again and while she was there gave one of the dogs a haircut. She noticed that I had bought a new TV for the bedroom and got angry because that was "yet another thing that she asked me to do for years, and then I do it after she leaves." Anyway, one thing led to another and I basically told her that I knew she was at OM's house almost every night. She of course was angry saying that I was stalking her ect...(for the record I haven't driven up to OM's house in months, but I did in the beginning). It was pretty much silent after that because she was so angry. She actually said "when did you become the victim in this?!?!" indicating that she is the real victim...She also told me that her best friend (me) had died in all of this, and that I am now a person she wouldn't tell anything to. That one hurts!
When she went to leave with the dog, she came up to give me a hug and she started to cry; not an extreme uncontrollable cry but defintely crying...I absolutely lost it. I turned into a sobbing mess. Dear god, will I ever do anything right? I just set myself back to the beginning basically I assume.
She actually said "when did you become the victim in this?!?!" indicating that she is the real victim...She
I love how they spin it to remove their own guilt. Funny/sad thing is, they believe it, too.
I do not see anything terribly FUBARRED there. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and mozy on. I see it more truth darts than anything and it really gives you an insight into MLCers brain. Crazy and mixed up.
Revert beck to Sandi's rules. Do not trust anything they say...
Do not trust anything they say...
If there ever was a time to say M*F'ing this, this is it.
I do not see anything terribly FUBARRED there. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and mozy on. I see it more truth darts than anything and it really gives you an insight into MLCers brain. Crazy and mixed up.
Revert beck to Sandi's rules. Do not trust anything they say...
Did you not see the part about me being a big sobbing crybaby? I would say that was pretty FUBAR! And it wasn't even that I was tryign to get pity or win some affection...I genuinely was overwhelmed with emotion and couldn't contain it anymore.
I call no foul and no penalty on the play. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and on yer bike...
You are VERY new to the whole SHITTY situation. Give yourself a break. In the whole slime ball of things I wouldn't even call a 5 yrd penalty, not even a loss of down...
Did you not see the part about me being a big sobbing crybaby? I would say that was pretty FUBAR! And it wasn't even that I was tryign to get pity or win some affection...I genuinely was overwhelmed with emotion and couldn't contain it anymore.
I was, too. You did nothing wrong. Being a left behind isn't fun. As my ex told me in one of my FUBARs as you say, "you've only been doing this for a little bit, I've been doing it much longer." Tells you something right there.
LW--
My reading of your exchange is ... positive. Your W still loves you, she missed you, and even wants you back.
The question is whether you are going to be that person whom she can admire and desire.
I realize I can't see the full picture through an Internet forum, but you appear to be acting like a mopey, sad, victim. Your wife nailed it. You are acting like a victim. You are a victim -- but it doesn't matter. You HAVE to stop acting like it. Fake it if you have to, but start acting like someone your W would be drawn to.
When your W complained about the TV, you should have validated -- let her know you hear her frustration. Then left it at that.
"Anyway, one thing led to another and I basically told her that I knew she was at OM's house almost every night. She of course was angry saying that I was stalking her ect...(for the record I haven't driven up to OM's house in months, but I did in the beginning). It was pretty much silent after that because she was so angry. She actually said "when did you become the victim in this?!?!" indicating that she is the real victim...She also told me that her best friend (me) had died in all of this, and that I am now a person she wouldn't tell anything to. That one hurts!
When she went to leave with the dog, she came up to give me a hug and she started to cry; not an extreme uncontrollable cry but defintely crying...I absolutely lost it. I turned into a sobbing mess. Dear god, will I ever do anything right? I just set myself back to the beginning basically I assume."
The "one thing led to another" is the bit to watch out for really. If you had merely validated and avoided getting into R talks, the visit may have turned out differently perhaps?
I agree with the other posters that your W does still seem rather attached to you. BUT - please do not set much store by this...you truly don't want to be attached to someone who is actively conducting an affair with someone else. So, until or unless her actions indicate she is truly remorseful and wants to work on the marriage, stay your course.
You may want to consider limiting your contact with her until you can manage a greater level of composure. Please don't see yourself as set back to zero - but you already know that crying, begging, pleading, rationalising and so on don't work and could harm your cause. But all isn't lost - pick yourself up and dust off - re-read the 37 rules and apply...
"Anyway, one thing led to another and I basically told her that I knew she was at OM's house almost every night. She of course was angry saying that I was stalking her ect...(for the record I haven't driven up to OM's house in months, but I did in the beginning). It was pretty much silent after that because she was so angry. She actually said "when did you become the victim in this?!?!" indicating that she is the real victim...She also told me that her best friend (me) had died in all of this, and that I am now a person she wouldn't tell anything to. That one hurts!
When she went to leave with the dog, she came up to give me a hug and she started to cry; not an extreme uncontrollable cry but defintely crying...I absolutely lost it. I turned into a sobbing mess. Dear god, will I ever do anything right? I just set myself back to the beginning basically I assume."
The "one thing led to another" is the bit to watch out for really. If you had merely validated and avoided getting into R talks, the visit may have turned out differently perhaps?
I agree with the other posters that your W does still seem rather attached to you. BUT - please do not set much store by this...you truly don't want to be attached to someone who is actively conducting an affair with someone else. So, until or unless her actions indicate she is truly remorseful and wants to work on the marriage, stay your course.
You may want to consider limiting your contact with her until you can manage a greater level of composure. Please don't see yourself as set back to zero - but you already know that crying, begging, pleading, rationalising and so on don't work and could harm your cause. But all isn't lost - pick yourself up and dust off - re-read the 37 rules and apply...
Good advice sotto I agree,when in this sitch u can't help making mistakes its impossible, we've all done it,and I believe these mistakes don't make a lot of difference,their on a mission to try and find a better life,and think that will fix them,
You may want to consider limiting your contact with her until you can manage a greater level of composure. Please don't see yourself as set back to zero - but you already know that crying, begging, pleading, rationalising and so on don't work and could harm your cause. But all isn't lost - pick yourself up and dust off - re-read the 37 rules and apply...
^This. And I may add, if you don't have any hobbies, find something you are interested in. Even if it going back to something from your childhood. For me, one of the things that helped me was model building - you got that right, model airplanes/ships. In the midst of the worst of times, I happened into a store that sold model planes. I think I looked over them for an hour, reminiscing. Ended up buying a P-51. Been hooked ever since. Now, I've also branched out into the wooden sailing ships (am building the Constitution). What I'm getting at, is find something you like and go with it, whether it be from your childhood or whatever. Just something that requires concentration. Or fun. Or whatever.
Hi everyone, it's been a few days since I gave an update. I've been doing much better at the GAL activities! This has really helped ease my mind at times. However, I want to tell you all about a little "situation" that occured Sunday and continued this morning. There has been very little contact between WW and I since our last little cryfest. Sunday she told me she had to go shopping near the house and she asked if I would like her to drop the dog off to hang out for a bit while she did this. I said yes, because I will never turn down time with my little dude! She dropped him off and asked if I needed anything from the grocery store. I told her a couple small things I could use and she left. A few minutes later I thought of one additional thing so I called her to tell her. At this point she asked if I would "just like to come with her". I said no, because the whole point of her coming was to let me see the dog and if I went with her that negated the point. She said OK. When she returned she told me that I could keep the dog for a few hours and just bring him back to her apartment later that night. I told her no (I didnt give a reason, but the reason was that I still had a lot to do that evening to get ready for work...and I still had to exercise). She then followed that up with "So are you done?" I was perplexed..I said "done with what?". She said "done with us?" Again, perplexed I said "no, what makes you think something like that, I'd really like to understand your thoughts/feelings on this?" She said she had "presented me with 2 opportunities to spend time with her" (grocery store and drop dog off at apartment) and I "threw them back in her face". I was absolutely baffled! I just said I hate that you feel that way and it was certainly not my intention to make you feel this way. We hugged she started crying a little and she left.
Fast forward to today: I wake up to a text from her saying:
W: I truly thing your done with the relationship and just won't say it. Your responses to me are extremely short/without substance and you NEVER reach out to me anymore...not even just to say hello
ME: Well this was not fun to wake up to
W: Sorry, but I've been thinking about this since yesterday and didn't want to bother you. I'm basically close to tears every waking moment of the day and I don't know what to do in life. My sis has been pushing me to move closer to her and even found me a job.
Me: I feel the same way about the tears every waking moment of the day. I wish I could change that for both of us. Regarding the move I suppose youhave to do whats best for you
W: I don't want to move but its nice to know you're ok with me moving.
Me: I'm not ok with you moving, but I don't get a say
W: You don't? So you have given up. I've presented you with opportunities over the past few weeks (grocery store and bring dog back to apartment) and you've thrown them back in my face
Me: I don't feel like I have given up. I hate that you feel that way.
Care to elaborate my friend?
Well, the post that I replied to seemed to have some positive tone, but I may be wrong.
I've presented you with opportunities over the past few weeks (grocery store and bring dog back to apartment)
I'd have given anything if my ex were to have said something like this to me.
OK....Here are my thoughts.
She then followed that up with "So are you done?" I was perplexed..I said "done with what?". She said "done with us?" Again, perplexed I said "no, what makes you think something like that, I'd really like to understand your thoughts/feelings on this?"
Im not sure about saying 'no' flat out. In my opinion, it's never a good thing to let your spouse know that you are always going to be there. I think deflecting and being more vague is better. But it might be splitting hairs.
W: I truly thing your done with the relationship and just won't say it. Your responses to me are extremely short/without substance and you NEVER reach out to me anymore...not even just to say hello
ME: Well this was not fun to wake up to
W: Sorry, but I've been thinking about this since yesterday and didn't want to bother you. I'm basically close to tears every waking moment of the day and I don't know what to do in life. My sis has been pushing me to move closer to her and even found me a job.
Me: I feel the same way about the tears every waking moment of the day. I wish I could change that for both of us. Regarding the move I suppose youhave to do whats best for you
To me, this doesnt come off as strong. I dont think you need to mirror her weakness. Remember, these are HER decisions. If you are right there in the muck with her, it just gives her the ammo to continue with this behavior. At this point, it may be good to gently probe her. Something like "Im sorry that you are going through this. What are you thinking about doing?"
W: I don't want to move but its nice to know you're ok with me moving.
Me: I'm not ok with you moving, but I don't get a say
W: You don't? So you have given up. I've presented you with opportunities over the past few weeks (grocery store and bring dog back to apartment) and you've thrown them back in my face
Me: I don't feel like I have given up. I hate that you feel that way.
Again, this last line sounds weak and needy to me. Why not ask her instead 'what do you think I have given up on, exactly?"
Remember - SHE walked out on YOU. What has she done to show shes interested in actually spending time with you? I dont think these cryptic messages are cutting it. You shouldnt be forced to mind read. Honestly, my first thoughts were 1) she was irritated by you asking for something extra and was being sarcastic asking you to 'just join' and 2) that she wanted you to watch the dog so that she could do something else in the interim.
But thats just my opinion.
L-
Here is what I started writing:
Laowai, what the hell is wrong with you man?!?!?!?!? Stop and listen to your wife. Not just to her words, but to what she's trying to communicate to you, in everything she says and does.
I stopped because it's probably too harsh, but that's how I feel. Man, she's reaching out to you to connect with you emotionally. Go be with her, listen, validate, and try to really understand how she feels. She's giving you a HUGE FREAKING chance to rebuild your marriage.
Wow, some vastly different opinions on this exchange. Thanks for both sides of the thought processes. I personally feel like they were both very weak attempts to get me to spend time with her. Almost as if she just used them to guilt me for not spending time with her. Also, it's important to remember she is still in an ongoing A, so that has to play into this as well. If the A had ended and these opportunities presented themselves, I believe I/We would be thinking much differently about this exchange. To me I think this is probably just temp checking...
While Im not saying that her actions are necessarily a bad thing, I wouldnt go quite so far as to say that she is giving you a huge chance at anything.
She could be seeking an ego boost or wanting to make sure you are still wiggling on her hook waiting for her to decide your future.
L-
Here is what I started writing:
Laowai, what the hell is wrong with you man?!?!?!?!? Stop and listen to your wife. Not just to her words, but to what she's trying to communicate to you, in everything she says and does.
I stopped because it's probably too harsh, but that's how I feel. Man, she's reaching out to you to connect with you emotionally. Go be with her, listen, validate, and try to really understand how she feels. She's giving you a HUGE FREAKING chance to rebuild your marriage.
From what Ive seen from being around here, if she is looking to actually start reconciling, it wont be in veiled hints of you dropping off the dog later at her house. It will be in flashing neon lights. In my opinion, what you are doing seems to be working in that shes at least starting to doubt things, at least starting to open up. But I think pursuing her now and resorting back to 'fix-it' mode will just spook her back into her hole.
Good point about the on-going A. Are you sure it's on-going? Often LBS's assumptions and/or intel are plain wrong, and they don't know it until well after the whole thing is over.
If you're sure she's still in an A, could you respond to her in a way that simultaneously sets down a boundary while letting her know you're interested? Something like:
W: I truly thing your done with the relationship and just won't say it. Your responses to me are extremely short/without substance and you NEVER reach out to me anymore...not even just to say hello
You: I don't feel done with the relationship, and Iwould love to get together and do something with you, but it's just too hard for me to do that while you're seeing someone else.
I would be tougher with her than this.
From her messages, she is wanting to know that you are still 'on the hook' when she hasn't confirmed whether the A is over, said it was a mistake, that she regrets it, that she regrets the hurt to you and how it was wrong on so many levels etc...
So possibly what is happening is she feels she may have lost you - and she wants to make sure she hasn't. But she may not be ready to make a decision about OM either? So she keeps both rumbling along so she can just have all options open.
For me, I would be no sort of option whilst OM is anywhere on the scene. Or even if the A is recently ended. In my sitch, XH and OW split up four or five times and reconciled. So do protect yourself from that possibility.
So, don't become OM in her new relationship. And if she sends you texts which imply you have some kind of ongoing R, let her clearly know that it doesn't work for you to be in contact with her whilst she's in a R with someone else....or otherwise, just ignore her for now unless it's an emergency..
Do I sound harsh?
I would be tougher with her than this.
From her messages, she is wanting to know that you are still 'on the hook' when she hasn't confirmed whether the A is over, said it was a mistake, that she regrets it, that she regrets the hurt to you and how it was wrong on so many levels etc...
So possibly what is happening is she feels she may have lost you - and she wants to make sure she hasn't. But she may not be ready to make a decision about OM either? So she keeps both rumbling along so she can just have all options open.
For me, I would be no sort of option whilst OM is anywhere on the scene. Or even if the A is recently ended. In my sitch, XH and OW split up four or five times and reconciled. So do protect yourself from that possibility.
So, don't become OM in her new relationship. And if she sends you texts which imply you have some kind of ongoing R, let her clearly know that it doesn't work for you to be in contact with her whilst she's in a R with someone else....or otherwise, just ignore her for now unless it's an emergency..
Do I sound harsh?
Doesnt sound harsh to me,sounds good to me,you kinda have to be cruel to be kind,I did not like being like that with my wife but I believe you have to,its your only hope,
@ForGump: Yes, I am sure that she is still in the A. (at least that's what we would call it here...she would disagree with that naming as she has never admitted to it)
That probably would have been the ideal response. I wish I had thought of that at the time.
So now the question is: Do I continue doing what I am doing, or do I start to reach out to her just a little here or there?
Do I continue doing what I am doing, or do I start to reach out to her just a little here or there?
If she is in an affair, then reaching out would be a waste of time. They can't work on the marriage relationship while doing whatever with another.
I agree with Jeep. That is pointless as the A needs to run it's course and she needs to see and realise some important things independent of your marriage.
For you, I would encourage you to put her very much on the back burner and treat her as though she is someone else's girlfriend - which of course she is just now. No R talks, minimal interaction and make your own plans.
FWIW, I think her contacts with you are manipulative and fuelled by self-interest. I think there would need to be a much more significant awakening within her before you guys could really make any progress. Otherwise, I suspect you will see more of the same and you will go up and down with her moods and whatever crumbs she chooses to drop.
Have a really good think about what your boundaries are here. And also, forge ahead with your own stuff....what plans are you making for yourself independent of her?
...treat her as though she is someone else's girlfriend - which of course she is just now...
Wow, if you put it that way...
So now the question is: Do I continue doing what I am doing, or do I start to reach out to her just a little here or there?
My opinion differs a bit from the others.
I agree w/ the others that you probably cannot make any meaningful progress on your relationship until and unless your W is out of the physical affair (I say "probably" because I don't believe anyone can know absolutely.)
Anyway, where I differ is this: I think you have to think hard about what is your boundary, and communicate that to her in a succinct, non-judgmental way. To be honest, I don't think you know what your boundary is. Maybe the word "boundary" itself can by itself confuse the process. I think of "what do I believe in as right/wrong," (as applies to affairs, marriage, etc.) and "what is healthy for me to be involved in vs. to stay far away from" (again, as it applies to affairs, marriage, etc.) Once you have a firm idea of what your boundaries are, then I would communicate those to your wife at an appropriate time. That would simultaneously let her know that you haven't given up on the marriage, but you are unwilling to proceed in an unhealthy way.
Once you have a firm idea of what your boundaries are, then I would communicate those to your wife at an appropriate time.
Bonus points if you can do it through your actions and not your words.
treat her as though she is someone else's girlfriend - which of course she is just now
This statement is disturbing on so many levels and leads to the elephant question that must be asked - Why? How do we justify - in reality, not out of shock/sorrow - ourselves and our need to be with someone who so blatantly disrespected us as to be in a relationship (physical/emotional/both) with another person?
Soon as I found out my w was in affair and cake eating ,I blew my lid off verbally she got it,not spoke since 'that day dday,I don't think I could even be in the same room as her while she is engaged in an affair,don't get me wrong l love her still,but its crumbling,
She was very sly a few weeks before I discovered she was in affair,I had a gut feeling,I sat at the side of her and asked have u got some one els are you going with some one are you seeing some one and she said no,but my gut was telling me different so I asked again about 5 times then I asked again on the Thursday then on Friday night she told me not to come round her place anymore,then on the Saturday I caught her with the om,
Can any one tell me there views why she told me on the Friday not to come round any more,,I suspect it was cos of me asking her days before and getting close to finding out,
I suspect if I had not had the gut feeling,she would be still cake eating with me now,what do you all think,
BTW the other man is a coworker ,on dday I wanted to punch his lights out big time,
But I knew if I did it was helping her cos I would of been in a cell,she knows I would of punched him no problem,but I just said your not worth fighting for that must of been a bit of a shock to her cos I've fought for her before for other reasons,
BTW the other man is a coworker ,on dday I wanted to punch his lights out big time,
I told the OM that if he ever went anywhere near my kids that I'd break his legs...and he knew that I would.
BTW the other man is a coworker ,on dday I wanted to punch his lights out big time,
I told the OM that if he ever went anywhere near my kids that I'd break his legs...and he knew that I would.
I'm with u buddy and brake his arms,
I'm helping you kneecap the SOB...
I'm helping you kneecap the SOB...
I'm using a power drill on him,
I'm using a power drill on him,
Know who Lucille is? That's my choice...
You guys are pretty funny.
Anyways, I have been doing some deep soul searching lately after haing some pretty intense meetings as well as text conversations with my WW. I feel like I am much closer to making a decision for myself in all of this. It's become extremely clear to me that I do quite well for days/weeks at a time when there is no/very limited contact with her, and then out of nowhere she comes in and reels me back in. It is getting to a point that I am afraid that for me to truly move forward, I am going to have to tell her that I need no contact from this point forward. I hate the thought of this, but it feels like the only thing right now that may save my life.
Laowai,
Anyways, I have been doing some deep soul searching lately after haing some pretty intense meetings as well as text conversations with my WW. I feel like I am much closer to making a decision for myself in all of this. It's become extremely clear to me that I do quite well for days/weeks at a time when there is no/very limited contact with her, and then out of nowhere she comes in and reels me back in. It is getting to a point that I am afraid that for me to truly move forward, I am going to have to tell her that I need no contact from this point forward. I hate the thought of this, but it feels like the only thing right now that may save my life.
You know, I found the same thing. Its much easier to move on with things when contact is non-existent than when it continues. I have to talk to mine every single day. Ugh.
You do what's best for you. No one else. You take care of you first, everything else will fall in line.
I am going to have to tell her that I need no contact from this point forward.
Why do you have to use WORDS to convey this message?
I do think NC can be useful for a while to settle yourself - particularly with a spouse who has left but still wants to be in touch and interact with you.
You have choices of how far you go with that of course. Yes, you could announce that to her. Equally, you could auto-route her messages somewhere and just check there every few days (ie: put yourself more in control of the contact.)
For me, XH contacted me using a particular email address and I just took that account off my phone. It was freeing that I could leave the house and I wouldn't know if he had been in touch. Yes, I would check my iPad later, but I wasn't on edge waiting for a 'ding' to say I had an email. It was more on my terms.
Whatever you do, do it because it is best for you and not because you are trying to push her towards some kind of outcome..
I am going to have to tell her that I need no contact from this point forward.
Why do you have to use WORDS to convey this message?
Exactly what Kaizen said. Just stop communicating. Period. And do not explain it to her. DO NOT!
I am going to have to tell her that I need no contact from this point forward.
Why do you have to use WORDS to convey this message?
Exactly what Kaizen said. Just stop communicating. Period. And do not explain it to her. DO NOT!
Yep I've not spoke to my w since July last year,I think its the best thing when there's op involved,and for your own sanity,w is still flat out in replay partying spending money like water and so on,I'm starting to wonder if it will ever end,
For me, XH contacted me using a particular email address and I just took that account off my phone. It was freeing that I could leave the house and I wouldn't know if he had been in touch. Yes, I would check my iPad later, but I wasn't on edge waiting for a 'ding' to say I had an email. It was more on my terms.
I like this. A lot.
Well, after my last session with my therapist we decided it was time. It was extremely difficult but it was a semi-liberating feeling to say to myself "it's time for you to think about you and let her know!". So, yesterday I met with WW and told her that her actions have told me that she doesn't want to see if what we have is rebuildable. I just need her to verbalize it for the finality of it. I told her it's time for me to move forward with or without her and that her choice needs to come VERY soon. I suppose I did give an ultimatum which is frowned upon, but after talking with my counselor I truly believe it is what is right for ME. I told her she is going to hurt one of us (me or AP) and it's time for her to decide which one it will be. I told her that she put herself in this situation and that I am not happy to push her to make such difficult decisions but at this time it is what I must do for ME. She seemed to understand but was absolutely devastated.
Definitely the second most difficult conversation I've ever had (BD was #1), but I strongly feel that it had to be done. I know most of you here won't agree with me because its only been about 6 months, but I finally reached a breaking point I suppose and my counselor truly feels that this was the correct course of action for me. Don't hit me too hard with the 2x4's please LOL.
Anyway, I feel ok today. It feels a bit overwhelming to have finally REALLY verbalized how I feel about the A to her and I may have divulged a few too many details of the A that she didn't know that I know, but I still have some hidden away for a rainy day just in case. She could tell I was serious and this is the very first time in all of this I feel like she 100% knew I am NOT just going to keep this up...I AM DONE with waiting on a decision.
Bravo! DR says you can give an ultimatum when you can't put up with it anymore and are willing to back it up with actions...including d. You did what was right for you. You sound like you are in a good place.
"it's time for you to think about you and let her know!".
Can you read this and see that it makes no sense? If you are thinking about you, then why do you need to 'let her know'? To me, that sounds like pressure and manipulation to try to get her to think or feel or do something. Your words dont mean anything. It's your actions. If you stop having talks with her, stop treating her like your W, start living your life, you will get the message across much more clearly than saying "It's time to think about me."
If it's truly 'about you', then its your mindset and actions that need to reflect that. Telling her about it, in my opinion, is not reflecting the words that you are saying.
So, yesterday I met with WW and told her that her actions have told me that she doesn't want to see if what we have is rebuildable.
Do you see what I mean?
I just need her to verbalize it for the finality of it.
Why does everything have to be so FINAL? Feelings change. Thats why they are feelings.
Think about this. After you eat a big meal, are you still hungry? If you asked that person that just ate all that food if, judging by their current feeling, they will ever want to eat again, they will say no. Of course, as rational human beings, we know that in a few hours, we'll be hungry again. But if you are forced to go off just that stuffed feeling without the knowledge of the digestive system, Im guessing youd say that 'no', you dont want to eat again.
Thats what youre doing here. You are basing your actions on what shes feeling after eating a huge meal. So what happens in 3 weeks or 3 months or 3 years when she's hungry again? Thats why Im so against "FINAL" decisions. They dont mean anything. Life is fluid. Live your life, let her live hers. If your paths cross, reevaluate then.
I told her it's time for me to move forward with or without her and that her choice needs to come VERY soon.
Again, do you see why this makes no sense. You say youre going to move forward with or without her. Then why do you need her to make a decision. You make YOUR decisions. Dont force her onto your timeline. Do whats best for you....either she is going to come along or not.
I AM DONE with waiting on a decision.
Oh you are? It sounds like you are exactly waiting for a decision.......
This is a very good viewpoint. I appreciate your input. mY next "Action" is filing for D...I wanted to have verbalized decision from her before doing so. Maybe it is stupid, but I feel it's what I want/need.
Read what Kaizen said again. It's golden.
This is a very good viewpoint. I appreciate your input. mY next "Action" is filing for D...I wanted to have verbalized decision from her before doing so. Maybe it is stupid, but I feel it's what I want/need.
Lets take a step back from wants and needs.
1) What are you goals? How does filing for divorce help you to achieve them?
2) What are you expecting to be different once you file? How about once the divorce is finalized?
Goals should never be about the spouse, no?
My goal is to have a partner that loves and respects me. MY W or someone else. I will not break my vows though, so it is time. So you asked what will be different: I can legally and ethically look for that partner that I just mentioned. I really do appreciate everyone's input, and it is extremely valuable. I will no longer take a backseat, I will no longer be second place. She will put me as her priority, or I will find someone who will. I like who I am, I know what I want, and someone out there will like me too....It. Is. Time.
Hmm, I would stick to using your therapist for general emotional support - and I would use this site to consider ways to move forwards in your current marital situation. My therapist suggested I ring XH and tell him exactly how I feel. I recall thinking that would be the exact opposite of what would be suggested here and decided not to do it.
Whilst you may feel you are giving yourself something you need - actually I think you are giving away your personal power. You are saying to her - please put me out of my misery here. Actually, you get to decide what happens in your life and with whom and when. If you are ready to file because you have reached that point, go ahead and file. You don't really need permission or an answer from her to do that.
A number of people do choose to file and I completely respect that. I chose not to file. My XH chose to file. I think the main thing is to look back and have no regrets about what you decided. If you can truly do that, then I think you have earned your way out of the marriage. Also, filing does not equal the end of pain.
My suggestion now would be to leave her be. Don't press her for an outcome. If she wants to come back to you she will. For me, weeks would pass before XH came back to me and I learned to pass the time pleasantly. And please post here before responding to her, we are here to help.
In the meantime, don't look to her to end your pain. She doesn't have that to offer. Start towards a path of healing on your own. Do nourishing things, look after yourself, work out, take up some new things, meet new people, meditate, read self-help books, practice gratitude. If you get yourself onto this path and follow it, this is what will start to bring an end to your pain. It will matter much less what she is doing and you will be much more detached.
Remember, DBing is about saving yourself first and foremost.
Well, after my last session with my therapist we decided it was time. It was extremely difficult but it was a semi-liberating feeling to say to myself "it's time for you to think about you and let her know!". So, yesterday I met with WW and told her that her actions have told me that she doesn't want to see if what we have is rebuildable. I just need her to verbalize it for the finality of it. I told her it's time for me to move forward with or without her and that her choice needs to come VERY soon. I suppose I did give an ultimatum which is frowned upon, but after talking with my counselor I truly believe it is what is right for ME. I told her she is going to hurt one of us (me or AP) and it's time for her to decide which one it will be. I told her that she put herself in this situation and that I am not happy to push her to make such difficult decisions but at this time it is what I must do for ME. She seemed to understand but was absolutely devastated.
Definitely the second most difficult conversation I've ever had (BD was #1), but I strongly feel that it had to be done. I know most of you here won't agree with me because its only been about 6 months, but I finally reached a breaking point I suppose and my counselor truly feels that this was the correct course of action for me. Don't hit me too hard with the 2x4's please LOL.
Anyway, I feel ok today. It feels a bit overwhelming to have finally REALLY verbalized how I feel about the A to her and I may have divulged a few too many details of the A that she didn't know that I know, but I still have some hidden away for a rainy day just in case. She could tell I was serious and this is the very first time in all of this I feel like she 100% knew I am NOT just going to keep this up...I AM DONE with waiting on a decision.
It always feels good to make a decision. It doesn't matter if it's the right or wrong one, we always feel relief. It's hard for the human brain to endure uncertainty and pain. That's why people commit suicide.
Which is why DivorceBusting is so difficult. It requires you to be patient and stay in uncertainty and sometimes pain for a long time while you work on your marriage.
How do you feel that your actions match the DivorceBusting program? Does your counselor know about DivorceBusting and how it works? Is it a marriage counselor? Have you read in the Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting books about the problem with individual counselors vs. marriage counseling?
I am curious about one of your statements about revealing what you know about the A. You say 'I still have some hidden away for a rainy day just in case' - what do you mean by that? How do you foresee using that information?
My goal is to have a partner that loves and respects me
How is this a goal? Sure you can find a partner that loves/respects you, but its not something you can actively work on or aim for because that isn't under your control. However, you can set a goal to be someone who can be loved/respected by changing your behaviors, etc.
My goal is to have a partner that loves and respects me
How is this a goal? Sure you can find a partner that loves/respects you, but its not something you can actively work on or aim for because that isn't under your control. However, you can set a goal to be someone who can be loved/respected by changing your behaviors, etc.
Your main goal is to find someone who puts you as priority?
Your goals shouldn't rely on someone else. You are looking to others to make decisions for you. Make yourself a priority and don't put that job in someone elses hands.
Having a new R with someone who choses to prioritize you is more of an outcome rather than a goal.
I suppose you all are correct. The better thing for to have done is just file for D. I really am indifferent at this point. I know that deep down I still love her, but really when I go for days/weeks without talking to her I am in a really good place mentally and emotionally. I am ready to start another relationship whether it be her or someone else. At this point I am actually even excited about it. Of course I am nervous, but excited none the less. I truly hate that it has come to this, but I feel that mentally/emotionally I am now where I need to be. I have done so much GAL and meeting new people over the last little while that I am just in so much of a better place. I have worked very diligently with my therapist to correct some of my characteristics that I wanted to change and have been extremely successful. With all of this said, I am ready to see what the future holds for me in the dating world. I am ready to have a partner in crime to travel with. I am ready. I understand there will be hiccups along the way, but really I can't express to you all in words how "at peace" I have felt over the last couple weeks with just being me and looking at what I have accomplished and what I have decided to do.
My goal is to have a partner that loves and respects me
How is this a goal? Sure you can find a partner that loves/respects you, but its not something you can actively work on or aim for because that isn't under your control. However, you can set a goal to be someone who can be loved/respected by changing your behaviors, etc.
Your main goal is to find someone who puts you as priority?
Your goals shouldn't rely on someone else. You are looking to others to make decisions for you. Make yourself a priority and don't put that job in someone elses hands.
Having a new R with someone who choses to prioritize you is more of an outcome rather than a goal.
I already put myself as a priority. I love me, I respect me, I like me. I will not rely on someone else to make me happy, only to add to my happiness. I truly am happy with myself. I am happy with who I have become. I am happy with the intraspection that I have done. I am happy with the positive lasting changes that I have made. I am happy with how I handled everything (for the most part with some obvious slip ups). I am happy with my career, personality, looks, core values, ect...I am ready to share these with someone again...maybe not something super serious, but someone that can and will appreciate what I have and am, as well as will add to my overall happiness.
But are you putting yourself as a priority? You are making your decisions on what she tells you. You need to hear certain things to make decisions on what is right for YOU.
Well, that's fine if you've decided to close the door on your marriage - but I can tell you right now - you aren't ready to date...
I'm pleased if you feel at peace, but give yourself plenty of time for things to settle before you think about another relationship. At least a year after any divorce is finalised is recommended.
If you are in any doubt about what I'm saying, Google 'relationships and entanglements' and read the article that pops up. It will provide food for thought I promise...
I know that deep down I still love her.
I am ready to start another relationship whether it be her or someone else.
I hope that you tell the new girl you meet that 'deep down', you are still in love with your ex wife. Id be interested to see if shes OK with continuing to date you.
With all of this said, I am ready to see what the future holds for me in the dating world. I am ready to have a partner in crime to travel with. I am ready.
You want my honest opinion? It sounds like you are impatient. You are ready like someone in the waiting room at a doctor's office is ready to go in. Like, you dont really know whats coming, but you dont like sitting and waiting and feel like you need to do something. To me, your phrasing here reeks of impatience and loneliness. You just told your wife that she needs to decide whether or not to be with you, and youre already chomping at the bit to replace her?
For me personally, I started dating about 8 months after BD, 6 months after separation and within 2 weeks of the D being finalized. I know now that it was too soon. I got impatient, and while I was starting to date again, I definitely had a lot of trouble working through the end of my marriage. Were I to do it again, I would have probably waited another few months.
Really? You think? Not even casually? Not saying I am looking for my soulmate or someone to spend life with.....
I find this statement a bit obtuse. How can a generalization be made that a person isn't ready to "date" when the word "date" itself means something different in different peoples eyes. Does this mean that for a year (again an arbitrary timeframe set by a standard defined by what exactly?) I can't go on a date? Can't go to a movie with a person of the opposite sex? Can't have consentual sex with someone even with the undertanding by both parties that it is just casual? Can't attend weddings as a date?
Where do these "general rules of thumb" come from? I understand that one of you can probably come up with some statistics to back this, but really ask yourselves the questions above. If it is known by both parties that neither party is looking for something serious, merely someone to enjoy time with and possibly have some physical fun with for the time being, who is to say that I am not ready? Who is to say that there is a timeframe on this? I do appreciate the words of warning, but I just find statements like yours WAY too generalized.
let's ask this:
If you were dating a lady and your wife said "I'm ready to do what it takes, lets work on things", what would you do?
Well, in the context that it is mutually agreed upon in the beginning that it is purely casual BY BOTH PARTIES I would explain the situation discontinue the casual relationship and work on the M. This is what I am trying to say, there are sooooo many people out there looking for the same type of relationship. Not everyone needs/wants to enter into a relationship for the purpose of long term. I just don't see how one could say you're not ready to date. Does this mean I am not ready to have casual sex or a hookup either?
I really appreciate this discussion by the way and don't want you to think that I am dismissing what you are saying, I am merely countering with my opinions.
Does your counselor think this is a good idea?
The concern is that you're just filling the void after your spouse and supressing the pain and grieving that you have to go through, with the hormonal highs from a new relationship - regardless how casual it is.
Well, in the context that it is mutually agreed upon in the beginning that it is purely casual BY BOTH PARTIES I would explain the situation discontinue the casual relationship and work on the M. This is what I am trying to say, there are sooooo many people out there looking for the same type of relationship. Not everyone needs/wants to enter into a relationship for the purpose of long term. I just don't see how one could say you're not ready to date. Does this mean I am not ready to have casual sex or a hookup either?
I really appreciate this discussion by the way and don't want you to think that I am dismissing what you are saying, I am merely countering with my opinions.
I was asking this question in context to the fact you said you are ready for a "partner" and a "relationship".
Hey, casual sex, sure, I guess everyone is ready for that. What you said you are ready for earlier is different than what you are saying now.
I'll end the discussion now. But I do think you have a lot to think about, because you do keep contradicting yourself.
One more thing.....
Wanting a woman to put you as a priority (which is what you said you want) is pretty selfish if YOU don't put her HER as a priority. Get what I am saying here?
Very valid points Ginger. I will tuck my tail now and admit defeat. I certainly did contradict myself in this conversation. I suppose I have long term and short term thoughts on this and I certainly didn't do a good job of separating those in this conversation. To that I will say "Well played my friend, well played!"
Does your counselor think this is a good idea?
The concern is that you're just filling the void after your spouse and supressing the pain and grieving that you have to go through, with the hormonal highs from a new relationship - regardless how casual it is.
Counselor said that she is fine with casual dating but that I need to be open with her regarding my ongoing thoughts and feelings on it. Her concern is that I could become too serious to quickly, which is understandable. Either way, I can't do any of this legally/ethically/morally until D...so I suppose that has a lot to do with my desire to move things along a bit. I do have this gut feeling (and I hate that I have this feeling) that it would be best for me to never see or talk to W again. That absolutely terrifies me, but sometimes I feel like you need to trust your gut. I am undecided if this is one of those times.
So, do listen to your counsellor who has concerns about this too. I would encourage you to use the time to extend your social circle instead of dating. We are all pretty needy and desperate in the early stages of our situation, and it is good to get to a stronger place ourselves before we think about spending romantic time with others.
I've been posting here for a while as you can see from my post numbers. I've never seen a single person post - Heck, I waited far too long before I started dating - but I have seen plenty regret jumping into dating too soon. I recall seeing a post from a guy once that made me cry. He said that is greatest regret in this whole journey is that he did date far too soon and he broke the heart of a good woman. You see, hurt people hurt people.
Anyway, I'm sorry if I've been a bit of a Debbie downer about this. I'm 9 months out from our D being finalised and kind of starting to think about dating once the year mark has passed. I'd at least like to go out on a friendly date sometime this year. But there has been a lot of water under my bridge at this point.
Take care Laowai
Well, interesting turn of events I suppose. I was contacted by me WW's sister. She asked for my side of the story because apparently my WW has been an emotional wreck ever since I had my last conversation with her. So, although I didn't feel like she was entitled to it, I gave it to her. After sharing my perspective she informed me that my WW's counselor has told her that she needs to "break up" with her AP, and go to counseling with me. She asked if I would be willing to go with her if she asked me. I of course said "yes, but it's not so simple. Going to counseling is only a very small piece of the puzzle. So far there has been no remorse, and the affair is ongoing. Only after the Affair stops and true remorse is shown can we even begin to think about moving forward." A little while later me WW called me and told me that she is "willing to go to counseling with me" I told her that would be fine. My intent behind going with her right now is to find out where she is at, because she hasn't been able to speak a single sentence to me after our last conversation regarding where I stand on things. I truly feel like this session (whenever it may be) very well may be the time for me to completely lay out what is necessary for me to consider working on an R with her. My suspicion is that my requirements will be far too demading and it will be time to just cut our losses and tell her that I am moving forward with D. This is obviously all just an assumption, but it is my gut feeling. So, it is at least a step in a forward direction whether it be positive or negative.
Awesome news, it seems to me!
While you think about your boundaries, I encourage you to a) remember that the boundaries are for YOU, not for controlling your wife, and b) don't get into a blaming mode -- think about what you did poorly in your marriage, and what you can do to be a better partner, should she be willing to reconcile.
You don't want to go back to your old marriage. Neither in terms of her behavior, nor yours.
Happy for you for this development.
That's encouraging news. Just on boundaries, I think it is important to say that OM needs to be out of the picture before you agree to go to counselling with your W. If he is in the picture, my guess is your investment in counselling will be wasted.
'W, I'm willing to work on repairing our M and will go to counselling, but only if there isn't a third person in the picture' - or similar - you get my gist...
I think it is important to say that OM needs to be out of the picture before you agree to go to counselling with your W. If he is in the picture, my guess is your investment in counselling will be wasted.
^This.
As long as they are involved with another person, the marriage can't be worked on, period. My ex was involved with the OM at the time of our counseling...and lied, lied, and lied more about it. The MC (also my IC) didn't believe her and really pushed her buttons, but she lied more. How anyone could accept their spouse being with another person - and lying - is beyond me.
Trust me, I agree with you all on that. The first step for me will be to truly believe that there is genuine remorse on her part. Only with that remorse can any type of healing of the MR begin. I will only attend the first session with her to tell her (and her counselor) what will be necessary for me to move forward with anything with her. NO CONTACT, complete unrestricted access to her phone/computer/email, no private phone conversations, find new job, ect...without these things I will not invest my time. I am not at all trying to control her, she is free to continue doing whatever she wants. I just will not be participating. To be quite honest, I see this meeting with the counselor more as a time for me to explain what is necessary and I fully expect her to not agree to these terms which is completely fine. She will just have to accept that by not agreeing to these terms I will not be attending counseling or investing anything further into this relationship; in fact, I will be doing the opposite as I will be starting the legal process. This isn't a threat, it isn't manipulation, it is merely me stating what I would need to invest anything. I am completely at peace walking away at this point....I never thought I could say that. Thursday at 8AM should be super interesting huh? I am actually anxious as I have had a conversation with her therapist and wasn't particularly impressed. I felt that my knowledge on this subject was vastly superior to hers, and that worries me a little. So, my main goal is to say what I need to both of them, judge their response, an dmove forward with or without her.
You, my friend, are doing well. I like your plan! I wish that I had done something similar.
I don't know that genuine remorse comes right away. It does seem like she has made this decision to go to counseling because her IC told her she should. I don't know that the reasons are the ones you are looking for right now. However, working through this could get those reasons and remorse to come to the surface.
So, yeah, no OP in the picture would be a definite for me. However, the other things you are looking for right off the bat aren't going to happen. So you have to decide if you are willing to start somewhere knowing you aren't going to get what you want right off the bat.
This is just me pointing out things I have seen through the piecing process on here. This is why piecing is the hardest. Given the chance, I don't know how well I would have done.
I don't know that genuine remorse comes right away. It does seem like she has made this decision to go to counseling because her IC told her she should. I don't know that the reasons are the ones you are looking for right now. However, working through this could get those reasons and remorse to come to the surface.
So, yeah, no OP in the picture would be a definite for me. However, the other things you are looking for right off the bat aren't going to happen. So you have to decide if you are willing to start somewhere knowing you aren't going to get what you want right off the bat.
This is just me pointing out things I have seen through the piecing process on here. This is why piecing is the hardest. Given the chance, I don't know how well I would have done.
Without the other things, there can be no guarantee that the OP isn't still in the picture. So to aswer your question about me deciding: I have decided. IF she can't give me those necessities, there's no reason to continue. Without those things how will I or her counselor know that she isn't still with OP? Am I just supposed to trust her word? That would be an asinine thought.....
Also, I agree that it seems more like she has been "talked into" marriage counseling rather than had an epiphany or actual desire to do so. These are not sufficient reasons. Make no mistake, I understand lots of people on here would have killed to have heard the words my WW uttered to me the other day. However, if you really evaluate those words with any intellect you can clearly conclude that something is not quite right. I refuse to bring myself back into that raw emotional state again without the things that I have mentioned being in place. I have made drastic strides in self recognition and determining my worth, and I refuse to bring myself back to that level of emotional devastation just because someone may have said the right words to her to "convince" her to at least do counseling with me. It's not that simple, it's a very long road of significant sacrifices by both parties and she and her counselor need to know that before I even begin to consider opening myself up emotionally again. I am finally at peace....I will not allow myself to not be at peace just on a whim.
Please start a new thread