The fun just doesn't stop.
Previously on this show:
FG get DB coaching (Thread #6)What can I say. The heartbreak just keeps going. It's been absurd and unreal. And I wonder when I will awake from this nightmare. Not first wave landing at Omaha Beach, for sure. But the absurdity of it, of life, of the pain we are about to rain on kids who did not ask for any of this. Vonnegut got it right.
Coly23: what amazing development. Your news is a direct rebuke of the hopelessness and absurdity that I feel. I hope you will drop by occasionally with dollops of good news.
PacLove: it's good to hear that feelings can come flooding back. At this point, I would be a little scared if it did. I would wonder, what am I getting myself into.
Gordie: re: tough love vs. cake-feeding. I don't know what to think. I don't know what's right and I don't know what works. At this moment in time, I believe a D and/or a PA is my boundary. Should that happen, I plan on moving on, and building my own, separate life.
Life is cruel.
I hear you but am wondering how separate that life can be with children involved. I know that some can do NC ex-child related topics or others move on to new relationships quickly, but I can't see myself being able to do either. For me, I think NC ex-child related topics would be bad for my kids but I guess each situation is different and we all have to find our way.
Sorry for you Gump. If you read up on my last few posts you'll see that I've gotten some new perspective after talking with 2 different lawyers yesterday. It has given me a lot to think about.
My W still "appears" to be level headed and has sworn up and down over the course of this whole mess that she has no intention of putting me in a position where I would be struggling financially or fighting for more time with my kids. Of course I take this with a grain of salt. But I think after the dust settles from the Disney trip, we're going to have to sit down and go over the particulars.
I'm hoping that once she realizes how difficult a divorce is going to be for us (financially, emotionally, and physically) it might give her something to think about.
The good news for both of us is that our Ws are still living with us. So yes, if you decide that the tough love approach is the way you want to go, a physical separation and going dark is probably best. But I think both of us are following the advice of the DB coaches who advocate reconnection through friendship.
So being in a position where your W can observe you on a regular basis can be to your advantage if you act appropriately. Do your own thing. Don't initiate R talks. Don't linger in conversations. Don't occupy the same space unless you have to. Keep your temper under control (if that's an issue). Walk away if your wife begins to spew (if that's an issue). Always be available for your kids, even if it gets in the way of your GAL plans. When you're depressed about the absurdity of it all, embrace that feeling, but don't do it in front of your W. If you don't have any friends/family to lean on, go for a drive and cry in your car if you have to.
And of course post here. We're all in this together!
I hear you but am wondering how separate that life can be with children involved. I know that some can do NC ex-child related topics or others move on to new relationships quickly, but I can't see myself being able to do either. For me, I think NC ex-child related topics would be bad for my kids but I guess each situation is different and we all have to find our way.
For us, there is absolutely no contact outside of that concerning the kids.
Had a big R talk. W told me she filed, but has not placed order to have me served. I believe she has 90 or 120 (?) days to have me served. She's hesitating before pulling the final trigger. Again reiterated that she loves me but just doesn't feel the romantic part, and believes it cannot be fixed. I validated and told her it won't solve our problems but I'll let her go. I did go too far though in trying to reason with her about how it won't solve her problems, however.
Trying to hold steady, come what may. I am at as much peace with this as I can be.
I'm so sorry, Gump. BUT, what is she waiting for? Is this the time to let her founder a bit? See how difficult life will be?
Good job validating. I hope you find peace in knowing that you've put up the fight and now it's time to be steady and balanced.
FG, I am sorry. Keep coming back to that place of peace, if you can. You and I came here at basically the same time, both of us pretty much in the same place, and we're now in very similar places, too. Here's hoping that place slowly changes into one that's far better for both of us. Hang in there, Man. You deserve much better.
FG,
It sounded like you handled yourself well. I'm so glad that you are finding peace in these turbulent times. What is your next step from here? Do you have the support you need?
FG, that's a tough conversation to have and I'm positive you handled it better than you think. I know what you're going through is rough right now my friend and I'm sorry you're having to go through it. Keep that balance. You're one of the most well equipped around here to handle this stuff and I've no doubt this will only make you stronger.
JR is right that you don't deserve this. As you also know, your W is wrong in thinking feelings cannot change. Just keep being strong and steady. Be there for your kids. Show your W that she can't break/shake the man that you are.
Hang in there brother. You're at a bumpy spot on your path, but I've no doubt it gets smoother for you as you keep down it. We are here to support you my friend.
Our R talk came about because we had to talk about MBR issues, and I had to explain why I'm taking the position I'm taking on the MBR. That's when she told me she filed. Overall a cordial, friendly talk. Some tears were shed by both. No anger. In retrospect, I wish I had validated more/better. Oh well.
She has mostly said she doesn't know why she doesn't have romantic feelings for me, that she feels somehow our chemistry is simply wrong. This time, she did say that certain things did kill her feelings toward me. Which reminds me, actually, that she's said those things in our past R talks as well (months ago, before my DB efforts). I'm always glad to hear those things, because I believe there is a cause-and-effect thing going on in our marriage, rather than simply "we have the wrong chemistry." I mean, if there is cause-and-effect, then there is hope you can fix it. If it's simply wrong, then there is nothing to fix.
However, she has never been able to paint a clear picture of what all those things are that ate away at her feelings for me. As with most of real life, I think it's complicated. There was a complicated set of things that ate away her feelings for me: various conflicts we had, our mutual difficulty accepting each other's mistakes and ways of doing things, our inability to talk about hard things openly. And that gets at trust: she has always admitted she can't trust me, nor anyone. And in this mix is also her intense anxiety and a need for intense emotional gratification and a need for intense limerence.
100383: What is she waiting for. She's daunted by her economic future as a divorcee, and she feels guilty for what she's about to do to our kids. BTW, she uttered something about "even if we did stay together, it would work for a while then I'd be back feeling the same way." It's the first time she's allowed even a hypothetical possibility of staying together. Of course this sinks hooks of hope into my heart; yet I fight it knowing that she filed. She $#%! filed. There is a set of public documents down at the court house asking for dissolution of marriage, with my name on it, and with a plan for how to split up my kids' times. I meditate on that fact and any hope is gone.
JRuss & LT: weird, our brotherhood. I wish I could have met you in a different way. I wish guys well. Reading and thinking about you guys helped me a lot. Also, I now believe what you guys are saying and have said about feelings, about chemistry: my W and I had incendiary chemistry at one point, and it changed. So it CAN change back.
Gordie: I thank you for your thread as well, and our situation have some strongly similar elements. I appreciate you inquisitive, mellow style. About support: I do have some supportive friends I can talk to, and I am getting DB coaching and do have access to an IC that I am taking a break from. At this point, I feel I have the right amount of support. I'm not feeling particularly needy about talking to people. Writing in this anonymous forum is a little different though. Feels good to write here.
What's next. I stay steady. I am trying to be happy. Enjoy every single morning and night I have with my kids (before that drops to 50%). I even enjoy seeing my W around, before that will be no more. I keep busy with my work, my kids, work around the house, and outdoor activities.
I wait to be served.
I have no anger. These are the last few pages of a book my W and I started years ago. Stories do come to an end, and I'm not aiming for tragic. The curtain close on this act, and I can walk away feeling good about this. I'm certain that this will be the hardest thing I will have completed in my life.
ForGump,
I have checked in on your sitch over the last couple of months. I am sorry to hear that she filed. I do not see any confirmation of OM in your signature. Do you suspect any OM? All of the talk about "the wrong chemistry" seems to be part of that ugly "script" when there is someone else in the picture and they have a new point of reference.
Listen. I know you say that you are steady.
I know that you say that you have no anger.
These are are all good things, but I am not sure that I believe you.
This is not over until you say that it is over.
She might have filed, but those are only pieces of paper. They are not flesh, they are not bone. They are paper.
Are you ready for it to be over? Have you truly thrown in the towel because you feel like you have no choice?
It is all up to you. You are ultimately in control of this.
It is not ever over until YOU say it is. Repeat that out loud.
If you are truly ready for it to be over, then wave the white flag. We all would certainly understand.
But if you are not, then don't. Continue to DB for as long as you can stand it.
I will be praying for you, whatever your final decision is.
Stay strong brother.
--Matrix
Matrix--
Thanks for your encouragement. I agree w/ much of what you wrote.
I think I gave a mistaken impression of where I am. I have accepted the gravity of my situation. But I have not given up.
Admiral Stockdale said,
"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
I accept that my wife filed. I accept that she is likely to have me served. But I choose to keep doing what I think is right in my heart. I'll keep working on detaching while being warm. I'll keep getting a life. I'll just keep working on being a better Dad, a better person. I hope to keep doing that, even if this marriage may end.
My current reality feels brutal to me. But I hold on to some hope. Not unrealistic hope. Realistic hope.
Once the divorce is completed, though, I won't hang on to hope for reconciliation. I plan on moving on.
BTW, she uttered something about "even if we did stay together, it would work for a while then I'd be back feeling the same way." It's the first time she's allowed even a hypothetical possibility of staying together. Of course this sinks hooks of hope into my heart; yet I fight it knowing that she filed. She $#%! filed. There is a set of public documents down at the court house asking for dissolution of marriage, with my name on it, and with a plan for how to split up my kids' times. I meditate on that fact and any hope is gone.
JRuss & LT: weird, our brotherhood. I wish I could have met you in a different way. I wish guys well. Reading and thinking about you guys helped me a lot. Also, I now believe what you guys are saying and have said about feelings, about chemistry: my W and I had incendiary chemistry at one point, and it changed. So it CAN change back.
Gump, I think it's appropriate and right that you have hope. It's not unrealistic and that hope partially motivates your DBing, which you are right to continue. Make it easy for her to come back because you're a calm, confident, happy-within-yourself man. As you always tell me, be great.
I really think that the economic hardship and reality of life is weighing on her. You don't need to remind her, but if there's something that you can stop doing for her to give her independence (and a little struggle) that might bring her some clarity.
Hugs, Gump.
My current reality feels brutal to me. But I hold on to some hope. Not unrealistic hope. Realistic hope.
Once the divorce is completed, though, I won't hang on to hope for reconciliation. I plan on moving on.
ForGump,
I'm really feeling your pain...and hope...love what you said about realistic hope...what does moving on mean to you? As you know, I'm about to separate, so have been thinking a lot about that...would love to hear your thoughts...particularly as we both have kids and want that co-parenting thing to work...
if there's something that you can stop doing for her to give her independence (and a little struggle) that might bring her some clarity.
Thanks. I'll think about that. Not so much from the place of wanting to affect her feelings, but from the place that ... well, I'm the over-accommodating fixer type, so letting her be more independent is simply the healthier thing for me to do. I like doing stuff for people, and doing it makes me feel more secure about the relationship (friendships, marriage, etc.) so I think there is a co-dependency element there. I have to work on that to be a healthier partner/friend.
What does moving on mean to you?
I start with the caveat that I know my feelings about things can change over time. So nothing is written in stone. But as I stand here now, I feel certain I cannot allow myself to want my W back after we divorce and she is seeking other relationships. It just hurts too much to continue to consort with her while knowing that's what's going on. For my own mental health I need a clean break. I will try to stay in tune with how I feel, and, at an appropriate time, would like to start dating. Could be months. Could be years. Don't know. I'm not eager to re-marry, but I do feel lonely and miss the warmth of a woman.
With respect to my kids, I expect to amicably agree to a 50-50% custody arrangement. I will do everything within my power to make full use of my 50% custody. I will re-arrange, scale back, whatever I have to do with my work to be able to do that. I will only rely on my W if I have to go out of town for work, and if then, hopefully swap rather than simply cede my time. I will do all I can to be present at my kids' various activities.
I don't want to blur to 50% custody by having my W come over to my home and vice versa. At least not based on how I feel now. I don't want to keep pretending we're an intact family once my W has broken it up. I don't want to keep seeing her. And I want to move on.
FG -- it's still very early days for you in terms of the D, but have you given any thought to how you'll schedule your respective custody days?
With 50/50, and a desire for each parent to get the same number of weekends, the 2-2-3, 2-2-5-5 and 7-7 models seem to be the ones most often used. Mine are too old now for the 2-2-3 as much as I'd like it due to not having to go too long not seeing them, but it's 19 transitions a month for them, and that's too much for a tween and (young) teen like I have, who have school, homework, tests, activities, a social life, etc. As much as it'd kill me to do it, I'm not sure a week on, a week off wouldn't be best for the kids because they'd be able to get really settled and relaxed before having to do it all again. Basically I'm struggling with the reality now of really, truly having to think solely in terms of what's best for the kids, even if it will be gut wrenching to go so long in between visits. They both have a lot of activities, though, and like you, I'll be religious about attending, so there will be times I can see them when it's not formally "my" time with them. I tend to think my W will have a lot of times where she can't get out of work, or her social life intrudes, so I'm trying to work a "three hour" rule into the parenting plan, where each of us commits to asking the other if they'd like to have the kids, before they'd otherwise leave them with someone else for more than 3 hours.
This [censored]. All of it.
This kind of stuff makes me feel like dying. Is it in the Crucible where a suspect is slowly crushed to death by having boulders placed on his chest.
I need to go down to the courthouse to see what parenting plan my wife filed. I doubt it's 7-7. That would be too long for each of us to go w/o being with our kids.
I just search online for various schemes, and see multiple alternatives. Every one of those makes my heart ache. I need to think about it.
Thanks for encouraging me to do this ahead of time, though. This is my reality and I need to confront it.
So sorry for you Gump.
I just cannot how painful it should have been to heard those words from her.
How do you picture the next few months together in the house?
Did you discuss or have the intention to discuss with her what you are comfortable with?
May be let her handle herself by herself, reality is different from fantasy. It something we cannot make them understand, they have to experience it. You still can have feelings for her and provide her with acts of kindness but reality has to settle down on its own.
Gump- I'm sorry about the news. I absolutely know how you feel as I'm basically dealing with the same stuff. I'm happy that you have an attitude of acceptance and I have been repeating to myself that I will deal with what comes and have probably faced the worst already. Hang in there.
Thanks for encouraging me to do this ahead of time, though. This is my reality and I need to confront it.
Yeah, it's so bad when I look and try to research this stuff that I frequently have to take a break just to cope and not have a panic attack. Then I think better to suffer through it now than to put my head in the sand and not be fully informed and let my W do whatever she wants, which always seems to be based on anecdotal evidence from just one friend's divorce experience and not well thought out at all.
FG, I agree with you. If my W is going to force us to D then I have also don't want to blur the custody line. It seems like it'd be brutal for us to have to deal with them in that type of situation. I'm unsure how you'd be able to establish/maintain a healthy R with someone else while living that way.
I couldn't agree more with you guys that being prepared, no matter how awful it is to do it, is the way to go. Head in the sand is not the solution. I remind myself that no matter how queasy it makes me feel to research stuff like custody, it'd be much worse to be blindsided because I'm not educated on it. Knowledge for us truly is power. It's power over our own emotional swings, as well as keeping us from making emotional choices. Grit your teeth and grind through it. Know what you want so you can respond quickly and confidently.
JR, my W has lobbed out the same anecdotal nonsense about how other "normal" couple friends of ours both deal with divorce and their Ms. W seems to bend what she perceives from these situations to fit her picture of how things should be with us. It's not well thought out and is very maddening at times. I'd hate to see what my Ds and my life looked like if I left it all up to W. I picture a soviet era prison camp in Siberia...
FG, keep moving forward my friend. Arm yourself with knowledge. You know what to do. You'll be ok through this, just keep grinding brother.
Maybe it would be best for my kids if -- after the divorce -- I can carry on w/ my wife as best friends, stopping at all hours to spend time with kids and help with childcare, and she does so vice versa. I think my wife would be OK with that, since she's the one that has lost her romantic feelings for me.
I can't do that.
Maybe it would be best for my kids if -- after the divorce -- I can carry on w/ my wife as best friends, stopping at all hours to spend time with kids and help with childcare, and she does so vice versa. I think my wife would be OK with that, since she's the one that has lost her romantic feelings for me.
I can't do that.
What you wrote just clicked with me...I think that's what my W wants...us to be best friends (with benefits)...with a lot of fluidity regarding custody...and a lot of family time...but not be married...need to think about that...
If you can't do that...then you can't do that...does your W know that you can't do that? Is that a point of conflict in your negotiation?
Gordie, I'm not certain that she knows it. I think she does, since she already suggested a post-divorce living arrangement where we live as housemates, and I said I can't do that. But she may still harbor some view of a future where there is this fluid and frequent co-mingling of our lives. I think some of this will become apparent and have to be negotiated during the divorce process where we have to submit a parenting plan to the court. But I have been reluctant to drive that negotiation forward, because I don't want to divorce and I don't want to help her get a divorce. It is her deal. But at the right time I intend to make it clear, if it is necessary to make it clear, that I cannot do that.
The most basic reason I cannot do something like that is that I just cannot emotionally do it. That is not me. I am not OK sharing my wife (or ex-wife in the future) with another man. It kills me to think about it. It burns a hole in my heart. I don't her to be with another man, and I don't want my kids to have another father figure. I want to be that, nobody else.
I buy into E. Perel's ideas about mating in captivity, the inherent paradox of (not) wanting something you already have. But (like Perel herself says), the solution isn't to give in to those impulses, because that doesn't buy you happiness and healthy relationships either.
I also believe that if I were to crumple to the situation and meekly accept it, if I were to communicate to her, "Gee, honey, OK, I'm so desperate and needy I will accept you seeking other men", that fuels her dissatisfaction with me, as an unattractive, emasculated male.
What did your DB coach say about your W's proclaimed lack of sexual attraction to you when everything else in your M seems like it is good? Does your W say more than that or just leave it at that?
It's one part of your story that I have no advice or experience. It seems common on these boards that there are people who fall in love and do have sexual attraction to one another...lose it over time (the mating in captivity phenomenon)...
Is it something where you have some influence (ability for one person to change the dynamic)?
*Your emotional connection to one another (including too much familiarity, lack of pursuit/lack of mystery)
*Your personal appearance/hygiene
*Your sexual history/dysfunction
*Your sexual activity (too boring, don't know how to turn her on, too fast, not enough foreplay, too tired/hard with kids around, differences in libido)
Is it something where you have no influence whatsoever?
*Her personal background/history/mental health (as you've indicated)
*Her personal sexual interests/dysfunction (you haven't indicated this issue)
Something else altogether?
I don't mean to pry, but just trying to throw these questions out to you in the hopes that it helps--whether for this R or the next one, so you don't repeat. Ignore all, if it doesn't help.
Gordie--
Thanks for your post. Good questions, you are not prying and I enjoy being asked questions.
My coach didn't have anything direct to say about the lack of sexual attraction. But her guidance so far is to work on seeing things from her perspective and to sympathize with her; so the implication, I believe, is that there are things that I did that eroded her attraction to me.
My W has never articulated to me why her attraction to me is gone. I think some of that is that she truly doesn't know it in a rational way -- that's just not how she thinks. And some of it is that it is extremely difficult for her to talk about it. So a mix of the two.
My own understanding of this, at this point, is that it's a mix of many things. Much of it is certainly my actions in the marriage. I think a lot of the conflict and a lot of my demeanor towards her -- coupled with my always being Mr. Nice Guy/Mr. Fix It guy, the parental figure -- subconsciously conveyed a sense of me not respecting her, me not seeing her as an independent, powerful, sexual partner. Somehow all of that translates to a feeling of not being wanted. And I also believe, because of her personality as formed by her upbringing and childhood, she is powerfully addicted to emotional highs. And she needs those emotional highs far more than ... well, me. So that amplifies her disappointment in my inability to make her feel pursued and desired. And on the flipside that amplifies the high she gets from wanting someone else, someone new.
As for my own sexual health ... I am sure there is a lot more I can do to be a better sexual partner. I'm fairly sure it's not my hygiene (I asked her directly about this), and I don't have problems in terms of levels of desire and in the physical ability to have sex. I think I can exude a more confident vibe, to let go some of my overthought inhibitions ... and I've been working on this as much one can during a separation. But the real hurdle is that if your partner is unwilling to talk about any of this, as my W has been, it's really hard to know how to go forward.
***My W has never articulated to me why her attraction to me is gone. I think some of that is that she truly doesn't know it in a rational way -- that's just not how she thinks. And some of it is that it is extremely difficult for her to talk about it. So a mix of the two.***
It's really hard when our W's won't talk to us about the issues...but so, so common...and leaves it in our court to do as MWD says, experiment and monitor results...approach with actions, not words...are you still willing to experiment at this stage? Seeing that your W won't talk to you...can you radically change (180s) any of the following non-sexual things and see if it makes a difference?
*Mr. Nice Guy--how would you act/dress/interact if you were the bad boy? Take some chances.
*Parental figure--what would it look like if you were the complete opposite? Romeo?
*She feels unwanted/addicted to emotional highs--what would help? time/attention? words of affirmation? acts of service? gifts? a weekend away? a romantic dinner for two? something totally unexpected and out of character? Mysterious?
*Appearance/hygiene--do you try to look/smell your best every time you are going to see your W? Women are much better than men about this, in general.
*Does your W like non-sexual touching/is she still open to it? Holding hands? Hugging? Massages? Cuddles? Sitting close to one another?
Side note: you know what makes me mad? This: "And on the flipside that amplifies the high she gets from wanting someone else, someone new." When I compliment my W she ignores me; when another guy compliments her, she melts into an emotional puddle.
I got a call from the front desk at my work. There's someone here to see me. My heart starts to thump. I thought, this is it. I'm being served. This is the end of my marriage.
It turned out to be someone else.
I thought I would be more ready, mentally and emotionally. This revealed to me that despite the nearly year long separation, despite all of my DB-ing, despite all of my mental preparation to let her go, I haven't really let her go.
How much more wrenching can this little fist sized muscle, the heart, take?
***My W has never articulated to me why her attraction to me is gone. I think some of that is that she truly doesn't know it in a rational way -- that's just not how she thinks. And some of it is that it is extremely difficult for her to talk about it. So a mix of the two.***
It's really hard when our W's won't talk to us about the issues...but so, so common...and leaves it in our court to do as MWD says, experiment and monitor results...approach with actions, not words...are you still willing to experiment at this stage? Seeing that your W won't talk to you...can you radically change (180s) any of the following non-sexual things and see if it makes a difference?
*Mr. Nice Guy--how would you act/dress/interact if you were the bad boy? Take some chances.
*Parental figure--what would it look like if you were the complete opposite? Romeo?
*She feels unwanted/addicted to emotional highs--what would help? time/attention? words of affirmation? acts of service? gifts? a weekend away? a romantic dinner for two? something totally unexpected and out of character? Mysterious?
*Appearance/hygiene--do you try to look/smell your best every time you are going to see your W? Women are much better than men about this, in general.
*Does your W like non-sexual touching/is she still open to it? Holding hands? Hugging? Massages? Cuddles? Sitting close to one another?
Side note: you know what makes me mad? This: "And on the flipside that amplifies the high she gets from wanting someone else, someone new." When I compliment my W she ignores me; when another guy compliments her, she melts into an emotional puddle.
They want the forbidden fruit,no matter what we do for them will change there minds been there done that got the tea shirt,you know what the forbidden fruit is don't you,
Hey buddy, sorry I've been absent.
So what makes a husband irresistible? Hmmm...confidence, smells good, doing interesting things that draw my curiosity. I'll be honest, right now I am "faking until I make it" with regards to WH. A big problem is he cheated and now I sometimes have intrusive thoughts when we are intimate. I also wish he would work out and get a little muscle. I don't want him super muscular but would like if he had some tone. Not because I want a stereotype but because it would show he cares about himself. I want to feel like he feels protective over me and be my shield. Right now I still feel like he is self focused and not caring about my feelings. My secret wish...that he would wrap me in his arms and apologize for all the hurt he caused me and that he would do whatever it takes to make me feel like #1 again. And then he would follow his words with actions.
This kind of stuff makes me feel like dying.
The shock and pain of these details we have to attend to are unbearable. Your side todd you know details of the terms of her D filing? Do in your state you don't have to lay our terms (so as to negotiate) ahead of filing? What does your lawyer say?
Ugh, typing on a phone:;Your side todd you know" = your W told you none of the details...;
Journaling:
We have been very amicable. But I still await to be served.
You must feel sick to your stomach, yet grateful for the peace. I'm glad you ate getting along. Keep being the lighthouse. She's so lost.
Hi Gump,
Went back a couple of days in your posts. I personally would not be able to do the friends thing with my WH if it comes to divorce. That sounds awfully manipulative to me and selfish. She knows you are not on the same page with regards to your divorce. Sounds like she wants to keep you dangling in the background. And if it comes to divorce, and new woman walking into your life is not going to be thrilled with that arrangement either. Maybe putting your foot down and emphatically stating that is not going to happen would be a wake up call?
You know your wife and therefore the changes she's going through. What are you seeing? What is she suddenly attracted to? How's your confidence level? You don't have to be a bad boy to be confident in yourself - which is attractive. Are you sedentary and she's suddenly interested in an active person? Are you dressing to impress?
Hope you don't mind me intruding, just some things I myself have had to recently pay more attention to.
Journaling:
We have been very amicable. But I still await to be served.
FG, the waiting and limbo [censored] bud and I completely get how you're feeling. What are you doing during the wait? I know you're spending a bunch of time with the kids but are you taking time for yourself? Got to take a break from this thing every now and then for your own sanity. Know it's difficult, but don't lose sight of your own well being.
Hang in there brother. I know you'll be good regardless of what happens. You remain a good man and it's a shame your W is putting you through this. Stay strong!
How about a getaway for yourself or with the kids or a buddy?
You guys are right on the mark -- I need to make sure I get away from this nightmare on a regular basis. I will work on that.
010207--my W fell in love with someone 10 years younger, someone w/ an alluring persona. It was a delusional EA, and she admits she's not quite over it yet. I'm physically healthy, active and fit -- and often get comments that I look much younger than I am -- but I'm a mellow, thinker type, Mr Nice Guy, Mr Fix It, and don't exude a strong presence in a group. I'm not shy or have low self-esteem. I'm quite comfortable with who I am and am at peace with myself. My W isn't particularly into flashy life-of-the-party types either. She's more drawn to creative types, but ... I believe being intensely wanted by anyone is like a huge drug hit to her brain.
010207--my W fell in love with someone 10 years younger, someone w/ an alluring persona. It was a delusional EA, and she admits she's not quite over it yet.
I still don't know how our Ws can fall so deeply in love with people they don't really know...while feeling like they can't possibly stay married to the people they do really know...sigh...I alternate between extreme guilt that I must have been such a horrible H that my W felt so lonely and needy that W fell into this...and extreme betrayal/anger that my W is entertaining this selfish fantasy to the extent that she is willing to dispose of her self-professed best friend/great H/great father...argh...
FG -- just checking in and hope you're doing as well as possible.
I still don't know how our Ws can fall so deeply in love with people they don't really know.
It's what a teenage brain does. Mine did when I was a teen and in my early 20's.
FG -- just checking in and hope you're doing as well as possible.
Thanks JR. I am sitting on a razor's edge, and the whims of reality can push my situation, my life, my kids' lives, in either direction.
I try to have some perspective. I think about those young men speeding towards Omaha Beach on those Higgins boats. The gate flies open and bullets thud against the metal. I think I am lucky. I am OK. This nightmare of mine is a luxury enjoyed by someone living in a great place, at a great time in history. My kids will be OK, and I am going to be better from this point on, regardless of which way I fall.
W told me she'd have me served by mail, if/when she is to do it. So now my heart no longer starts to pound each time my office phone rings. Instead I go to our home mailbox every day, looking for certified mail from my wife. Comical, since we're at the same address.
I shouldn't mind-read, but I surmise she's just trying to get up the courage to pull the final trigger. She's afraid of her financial future, and is feeling guilty mostly toward the kids. Toward me, at least outwardly, she's become cold again. No greetings, avoids eye contact, does mutter a reply if I greet her coming and going. On the other hand, she's not actively looking for a job. It would be consistent for her to plunge into the divorce w/o getting her ducks in a row. So her not getting a job doesn't tell me anything.
My DB coach thought my W isn't going to pull the trigger. I don't know. I'm tired. This has gone on for a very long time. With time, the prospect of losing my W hurts less. And the pain when I think about what it'll mean for the kids -- even that has lots its sharp edges. Now that pain just feels like a heavy, dense, black cloud in the middle of my chest. It no longer lacerates.
A divorce is likely going to lead to losing our house. My little one loves the house and wants to live here forever.
W told me she'd have me served by mail, if/when she is to do it. So now my heart no longer starts to pound each time my office phone rings. Instead I go to our home mailbox every day, looking for certified mail from my wife. Comical, since we're at the same address.
I shouldn't mind-read, but I surmise she's just trying to get up the courage to pull the final trigger. She's afraid of her financial future, and is feeling guilty mostly toward the kids. Toward me, at least outwardly, she's become cold again. No greetings, avoids eye contact, does mutter a reply if I greet her coming and going. On the other hand, she's not actively looking for a job. It would be consistent for her to plunge into the divorce w/o getting her ducks in a row. So her not getting a job doesn't tell me anything.
My DB coach thought my W isn't going to pull the trigger. I don't know. I'm tired. This has gone on for a very long time. With time, the prospect of losing my W hurts less. And the pain when I think about what it'll mean for the kids -- even that has lots its sharp edges. Now that pain just feels like a heavy, dense, black cloud in the middle of my chest. It no longer lacerates.
A divorce is likely going to lead to losing our house. My little one loves the house and wants to live here forever.
Hi fg you will be OK,remember your wife is in mlc,is not your wife its a tottaly different person,only interested in her self and her own needs,you just have to stand back and let her have her new life,and hope the woman you love comes back,not much you can do,only make her new life tuff for her if you can,in my eyes if they find ther new life is not so good,thers a better chance of them wanting the old life back,but if the new life is good why would they want to come back,but this can take years,
Hi Gump,
I have no words of wisdom for you. The roller coaster ride stinks.
Sending virtual hugs!
***Instead I go to our home mailbox every day, looking for certified mail from my wife. Comical, since we're at the same address.***
Laugh or cry?
***I shouldn't mind-read, but I surmise she's just trying to get up the courage to pull the final trigger. She's afraid of her financial future, and is feeling guilty mostly toward the kids. Toward me, at least outwardly, she's become cold again. No greetings, avoids eye contact, does mutter a reply if I greet her coming and going.***
How are you doing re detachment? Does her coldness affect you? Does it make you feel bad? Does it change your mood/behavior?
***On the other hand, she's not actively looking for a job. It would be consistent for her to plunge into the divorce w/o getting her ducks in a row. So her not getting a job doesn't tell me anything.***
Sadly, she may also intentionally not be trying to get a job so that she can get more alimony from you.
***My DB coach thought my W isn't going to pull the trigger. I don't know.***
Why did your DB coach say that?
***I'm tired. This has gone on for a very long time.***
I feel the same way. This is exhausting...and you've been doing this longer than I have.
***With time, the prospect of losing my W hurts less. And the pain when I think about what it'll mean for the kids -- even that has lots its sharp edges.***
What do the kids know? Have you told them yet?
***Now that pain just feels like a heavy, dense, black cloud in the middle of my chest. It no longer lacerates.***
I get it in my throat...and it just stays there...ugh.
***A divorce is likely going to lead to losing our house. My little one loves the house and wants to live here forever.***
I think this is going to happen to us too, but my W is in denial. The numbers just don't work.
I try to have some perspective. I think about those young men speeding towards Omaha Beach on those Higgins boats. The gate flies open and bullets thud against the metal. I think I am lucky. I am OK. This nightmare of mine is a luxury enjoyed by someone living in a great place, at a great time in history. My kids will be OK, and I am going to be better from this point on, regardless of which way I fall.
FG, 100% this. We've all chatted about this being a good reality check for us before and it's excellent to keep us grounded. This is a good frame of mind to be in.
I'm tired. This has gone on for a very long time. With time, the prospect of losing my W hurts less. And the pain when I think about what it'll mean for the kids -- even that has lots its sharp edges. Now that pain just feels like a heavy, dense, black cloud in the middle of my chest. It no longer lacerates.
Brother, this is normal. From looking around at those who showed up here at the same time as us, it seems we're all in a similar spot with respect to the dulling of our emotions. I think the saving grace for all of us is Time. Add to that the greater understanding we now have of ourselves and how a R is supposed to be and deep down i think we all know we're in a better place from a personal perspective.
I think the lingering pain, or the cloud as you so aptly put it, may be regret. Regret that we may not be able to get to an optimal outcome for ourselves, or kids, and our Ws. Now that we understand what has happened, as well as the small things that can be done by our Ws to fix it, it's hard (for me at least) to not feel down that W may not be willing to make changes on her end. That said, i also think there's a realization with us that we will be fine, and because we are fine, we are very prepared to help buffer our kids from whatever outcome happens.
To me the dulling of the pain is coming from us being better prepared to handle this. A nice little boost of confidence that while we don't want this, we are ready for it. You are a rock FG, and I believe you to be the most prepared of us all. I know you'll be good.
A divorce is likely going to lead to losing our house. My little one loves the house and wants to live here forever.
This i am very sorry for my friend. Best we can do is create a new and stable home for the kids. Give them something stable to generate new and awesome memories of what home is.
Hang in there brother. I'm sorry you're having to deal with the uncertainty of things at the moment. Stay strong FG!
FG -- I think it actually sounds like you're in a decent place, all things considered, mentally/emotionally speaking.
Can she really not just hand it to you to affect service? Seems like silly mindgames, but maybe it has to be that way or the sheriff, in which case mail is certainly better.
In my own sitch, we worked back and forth most of this week to put down on paper how we'll do custody (50/50, 2-2-5-5, initially) and hack up our assets. As is so often the case, preparing mentally in advance, and knowing and bracing for what I know will be really hard and painful, only goes so far. You only do this once with the woman you still (how?) love, and reality is reality, and it really hits harder than you can prepare for. We finalized things last night and will meet with a lawyer Tuesday and turn her loose to put it all on paper the way it needs to be turned into the court. I guess I'll be served, too, not sure how that works. So, absent the epiphany for my W that would have come long ago if it was ever coming, we'll be divorced sometime in May, and she'll move out. Cest la vie. I've gotten to where I sometimes let myself view that move-out as at least something to let the pressure off a little, even though I know I'll be laid low.
GALing continues. I think all of us will have better 2017s than 2016s, and better 2018s still.
How are you doing re detachment? Does her coldness affect you? Does it make you feel bad? Does it change your mood/behavior?
Sadly, she may also intentionally not be trying to get a job so that she can get more alimony from you.
Why did your DB coach say that? [that she won't pull the trigger]
What do the kids know? Have you told them yet?
I think this is going to happen to us too, but my W is in denial. The numbers just don't work.
I'd be lying if her coldness does not affect me. But I do a pretty good job of staying chipper when home, I think. I'm determined not to mirror her moods, and I want to stay a positive figure for the kids. When I'm alone, late at night or at work ... I'm more able to allow myself to feel depressed.
My W isn't that calculating (about alimony). She thinks ... more like an animal. She's a very intuitive, impulse-driven person. She's overwhelmed by anxiety, fear and guilt. Her not getting a job isn't because she wants to screw me.
The kids know something is up, but then it's been this way for 8 months, so they are OK w/ that stability for now. We have not talked to them about the impending divorce. We've deflected their questions about our sleeping arrangement.
The numbers ... yep. They just don't work for us either. But my W hasn't made life decisions based on numbers her entire life. She lets things hit rock bottom, then figures out what to do next.
Thanks for your thoughts, Gordie. I will be having a cold one in your honor after work today.
About letting go: my head fills with the image of my W being intimate with someone else, and it feels like a giant fist punching me in my face, and I want to just stop existing.
How did I get here? Was I really doomed from the day I met her? I think I was. I was fated to fall in love, and we were fated to break up. Everything that led to this point, I think was set in motion long before. Possibly long before I was even born. All the family history that led to who I am and who she is.
JR-- yes, I believe she can just have me sign saying I got the docs. I told her this, but she disputed it so I just let it be. As I said before, I don't want to do this for her, it's her deal, she already feels suffocated by me, so I'm not going to help her divorce me too. I did learn that to have me served by mail, she needs me to sign for certified mail from the mailman. Our mailman typically comes by during the day when I'm at work, so she'll have to ask the mailman to come back for me in the evening. I think in our town and in our neighborhood, the mailman would do something like that. So, that's what I expect.
I looked at a website that shows calendars for various ways to split up the week for the kids. Some of them look really confusing. 2-2-3 looks best to me. I'd guess that's the most popular one.
What I've read and heard from others in the same situation is that 2-2-3 only works well if the kids are under 6 or so. It's 18-20 transitions a month, and they really end up "living" in neither home. But it apparently helps if, say, a very young child just can't go more than 3 days without (usually at that age) Mom. As the kids get older, and they have real homework, tests and social lives, they tend to want and need longer in each place so they can set up and have some structure. Even going 2-2-5-5 is 9 changes in a typical month, which might end up being too many relatively soon, especially for D13, in which case you're just looking at 7-7 if you want alternate weekends. Whether it's 5 or 7, those gaps are going to be hard. We did explicitly build in that parents have 100% access to call, text, Skype, etc. when not having custody, outside of the dinner hour.
Ugh -- just trying to put that on my Worrying Backburner. It will be bad for sure, but if I think too much about it now, now will be bad (worse), too.
I looked at a website that shows calendars for various ways to split up the week for the kids. Some of them look really confusing. 2-2-3 looks best to me. I'd guess that's the most popular one.
This is one of the things that got me, too. Initially, it was 2-2-3 for us, but that's a pain so we went to weekly. That may change, too. but we will see. What [censored]-so-much is that the ex's don't really care, even if they think and have been told they are great moms/dads. Whatever.
Why did your DB coach say that? [that she won't pull the trigger]
It could be because she (the DB coach) genuinely believed that that would be the case, based on her years of experience seeing these types of situations... or maybe she just wanted to be encouraging.
JR/Jeep -- yes, I see that 2-2-3 leads to a lot of transitions. Maybe 3-4-4-3 or alternating weeks. I think I can learn to deal w/ alternating weeks. Not sure W can. They all blow.
Just a thought! Please do not send any 2X4', I am always brainstorming, I cannot help myself...
Did you think about having one week vacation a year with your kids and your ex-wife but without anybody else, once a year built into your agreement just to make the kids happy.
It can also help build a new "relationship" with her, you can show her what she is missing in case she finally gets out of her limbo.
I don't think my W would have any interest in that at all. Traveling together as a family was actually one of the first things to go by the boards. Maybe she regrets this at some point. I doubt it -- she rarely admits to a mistake, and that would be the Mother of All Admissions -- but you never know. I don't think there's any way she'd put into a document a commitment to take a trip with me post-D, though.
I ask because my W is also not following her words with actions (pulling the trigger).
Fg we are all hurt with our spouses putting this on us,its wrong very wrong and in most cases its not our fault,they are like machines gone wrong but with a difference we can't fix them,they can only fix them self's,all you can do is do things all the paperwork and so on,if she pulls the trigger or not,you have to go with it,and keep in mind you can get remarried in one hour,its not the end of the world,these days its just a piece of paper,and it doesent mean much to your w ATM or she would not file,you no the in sickness and in health and all that stuff,so how good is it when w files,I wished I could answer why they turn like this,I loved my wife verry much I'm still in shock looking at the ride I've had,for 5 years and still going,put your seat belt on and buckle up my friend ,
skyhigh-- I like the concept of what you're suggesting, but not sure putting into the D agreement is the right way to make it happen. Could add a lot of stress to make it a requirement. Will have to think about it.
Gordie-- my W has taken a series of small steps to file. Got the paperwork, asked me to look it over, filled out the paperwork, and filed it. She's just hesitating on the very last step of serving me. So I take her very seriously, despite her last-minute doubts.
maly-- 5 years!!! Your signature says you initially separated in 2012, and PA occurred in 2016. During those 4 years, did you remain strictly separated (in-house)? Or were there periods when you were "together" emotionally and physically? I cannot imagine living together with a separated spouse for 5 years.
Remember it's just a idea so you can discard it, apply it or change it to make it your own. That's the beauty of brainstorming or Think Tank.
Start with something and then build up or move on to the next idea.
Good night
Can she really not just hand it to you to affect service?
We had a great night out at a restaurant with two other families. Good food, beer, lots of laughter, kids having fun.
Then before going to bed, she came to me and said, You're right, I can just give you the [divorce] papers. So I think I'm just going to give them to you.
I nodded but said nothing.
skyhigh-- I like the concept of what you're suggesting, but not sure putting into the D agreement is the right way to make it happen. Could add a lot of stress to make it a requirement. Will have to think about it.
Gordie-- my W has taken a series of small steps to file. Got the paperwork, asked me to look it over, filled out the paperwork, and filed it. She's just hesitating on the very last step of serving me. So I take her very seriously, despite her last-minute doubts.
maly-- 5 years!!! Your signature says you initially separated in 2012, and PA occurred in 2016. During those 4 years, did you remain strictly separated (in-house)? Or were there periods when you were "together" emotionally and physically? I cannot imagine living together with a separated spouse for 5 years.
Fg yes that's exactly how it was,with periods of together kinda when she wanted,,think this was mlc touch and go stage sex and all that,even telling me she loved me,I don't know exactly when the pa started I've a suspicion it was more like 2013/14 but I only found out in 2016 that's when the sh-t hit the fan,I just had enough of her she was kinda killing me inside,it was like a living hell in limbo she seemed happy living like that in control and using me like a doormat,but I couldent see it love is blind,but I've kinda woke up now I'm not going to let her treat me like that any more or ever again,
Your W is having a really difficult dinner pulling the trigger. Having a great night with her family creates additional dissonance in her mind so she tries to dig in her heels to validate her decision of leaving. She has no control over her happiness and this is how she thinks she can exert it?
It's so incredibly miserable for you and I feel you on the increasing numbness and dulling of the pain. You can only endure it so long before you feel nothing.
Your attitude of gratefulness despite your circumstances (it could be worse, because you and your children still be in) is healthy. You're alive, have the means to provide for your family, food, shelter, etc.
I think it may be a while before your W pulls the trigger or there may be some sort of event. IDK, just a feeling.
Hang in there, my friend.
Fg BTW,I pushed my wife to d me then I pushed her to leave,I had to she was doing my head in,making me I'll with her antics I wasent sleeping/eating and so on,she was happy living in the same house her in one room and me in another,and me being ther when she felt like it,I just could not take it any longer,and I'm sure if I had not forced her out she would be still hear and doing the same thing,I was helping her with her new life but was blind to it,now I'm getting back on my feet since she left,and now let's see how she likes life without me,if her life it better without me in it good luck to her,but if its not then tuff,all I can say is when there in this mlc they are cruel creatures very cruel and its you who is on the receiving end like a punch bag,now I'm fighting back,no more rolling over from me,and I'm certanly not going to help or make her new life good,I'm getting off that rollercoaster,
Its like your in a war ,
My w has dropped a lot of bombs and won a few battles in this war she has created,but let's see who wins the war,
My war is not over yet and Now ive regrouped and I'm fighting back,my w has been in control for long enough now it ends ,
Your W is having a really difficult dinner pulling the trigger.
Time, not dinner!
Your attitude of gratefulness despite your circumstances (it could be worse, because you and your children still be in)...
It could be worse -you and your children are alive and healthy.
maly-- it's not a war for me, and I'm not looking to win or lose.
100383-- funny you thought she's having trouble pulling the trigger, my thought was on no she's pulling the trigger!
It's just JR says, you don't know how you're going to feel til it happens. I just have to make myself choose to look forward, not backward.
I also have a lot of sympathy for what my W is going through. All the bad choices she's making, all the confusion and turmoil she's feeling... she can't help it.
maly-- it's not a war for me, and I'm not looking to win or lose.
100383-- funny you thought she's having trouble pulling the trigger, my thought was on no she's pulling the trigger!
It's just JR says, you don't know how you're going to feel til it happens. I just have to make myself choose to look forward, not backward.
I also have a lot of sympathy for what my W is going through. All the bad choices she's making, all the confusion and turmoil she's feeling... she can't help it.
Fg ,no wasent a war with me for over 4 years,but is now,and if your wife does some of the things my w has done u might just change your mind on that,I'm looking at it like this,you can roll over and let them roll over you if that's what you want,or you can fight,i rolled over for 4 years and got no where,
Hi FG,
Just catching up on your situation. I may be mind reading here but her approaching after some good family memories were made to bring up divorce looks like she is trying to convince herself. In other words, she is ambivalent and not dead set. I used to struggle when WH brought up divorce and ILYBIANILWY mantra but realized his worst behavior was when he was in deep inner conflict.
Now when he pulls back I see him struggling, this is good, apathy is the enemy, not anger. Right now we are on an "up" slide but I know not to trust it until it's been happening for some time. Keep making yourself healthy and amazing.
Can she really not just hand it to you to affect service?
We had a great night out at a restaurant with two other families. Good food, beer, lots of laughter, kids having fun.
Then before going to bed, she came to me and said, You're right, I can just give you the [divorce] papers. So I think I'm just going to give them to you.
I nodded but said nothing.
It's like my DB coach reminded me. When they get too close, they have to pull further away because they see getting too close as contrary to their goal.
She pulled the trigger.
Holding steady on the outside -- possibly overdoing it -- but on the inside feeling weightless and adrift.
So sorry for the news. Can you do something for yourself today to process your feelings? Do you have someone with whom you can talk?
I'm sorry, Gump. In actually surprised she pulled the trigger. So what changes now? What does this practically mean? Do you seek three house? Did she move out?
Sell the house, not seek three house.
She pulled the trigger.
Holding steady on the outside -- possibly overdoing it -- but on the inside feeling weightless and adrift.
I'm sorry to hear that fg,but you know when otheir in mlc their not thinking straight they can't with their hormones going lala,they think they know what their doing but how can they when in mlc lala land,my w completed the divorce then a few weeks later said to me why dident you stop it,
Gordie-- thanks. Good advice, and I kept thinking about it, although I didn't do a particularly good job of it. I spent much of the day playing w/ my kids, doing housework, and running errands for my family. Late evening I went to the gym and got a brief workout in but I feel the tip of depression above the surface, like an iceberg. I am continually resolving to toughen up, though... It's a marathon, and I'm willing to keep running, but I don't know if I'll stay on the course. I just might run off to somewhere else.
100383-- practically, this means I have 30 days to respond to her divorce petition. We can work out a version that we both agree to, or else I submit what I want, and we're forced to go into mediation provided by the court. The terms of divorce she put into the petition were really half-baked and very unspecific. It's consistent with her inability to really think complex issues/scenarios through. She just has to plunge right into it. The parenting plan assumed we were going to be highly interactive, and simultaneously assumed we would just work out holidays and vacations on the fly. I don't think she understands that I don't want us to parent like we're still married or we're best buddies. I need a clean delineation. The ownership of our house is a little complex, for reasons I don't want to get into here. I will say that odds are fair to good that in the long run it will likely have to be sold.
Maly-- my wife has been fairly consistently cordial toward me, and she does feel a lot of guilt and remorse. But I now believe she now is deep in the throes of MLC, and it's colored and amplified by some degree of borderline personality disorder (BPD). She made a doodle recently that I saw, in which she wrote repeatedly, "Love and passion and meaningful life." A person with BPD has difficulty regulating their impulses, and also experiences sensory perception and emotions with unusual intensity. I believe she's lived all these years with me trying to repress her impulses. Her infatuation with the OM triggered her giving up on trying to control her impulses, and instead embracing whatever her impulses are telling her. And I'm collateral damage, along with my kids.
It's not simple, but that's the gist. A few days ago when I asked her if she's going to have me served, she replied she doesn't know and began crying and wished she could just escape the torment of not knowing what to do. So I know she wasn't sure right up til the end. In fact, she couldn't bear to give me the papers in person. She placed them on my nightstand after I had fallen asleep.
Today I found myself thinking about all the ways that she and I don't get along at times; I found myself thinking about how great it would be to be with someone more emotionally generous. I found wondering what it'd feel like to be loved again for who I am. Then I thought about how difficult that is, to find someone who loves you just the way you are.
In the end, I'm seeing that all my musings and hand wringing about what's DB and not DB doesn't matter all that much. I'm locked into my fate, and all I can do is to put one foot in front of the other. I'm going to give her the signed for acknowledging receipt of the papers, then take my time to formulating a better set of terms for the divorce, then propose to go over it together in person.
It does help that you all are out there in this schizophrenic cyberspace because my in-person friends don't really understand what we're going through. I say schizophrenic because you're there, but then you're not there.
Fg,I think your doing OK the way your handling things,keep in mind this is not the woman you married,its a different person when in this mlc,stand your ground ,in a nice way,don't let her leave you with nothing,your priority is protecting you and your kids,keep your guard up things will probly get worse,
I wish I had something to say that could help. I'm about a week to 10 days behind you in terms of getting served, FG, and waiting for it just plain [censored]. No sugarcoating it. That bit about her doodle -- my W likely wouldn't write it down where anyone could see it, but it is pretty much verbatim where her focus is.
I was struck by this quote:
Today I found myself thinking about all the ways that she and I don't get along at times; I found myself thinking about how great it would be to be with someone more emotionally generous. I found wondering what it'd feel like to be loved again for who I am. Then I thought about how difficult that is, to find someone who loves you just the way you are.
If you can get to where you can trust (big ask, I know) and let go of all of what you've been through (another big ask, I know) and show women anything close to what you show here in terms of how your mind works, and your strength and constancy and huge heart, it won't be a matter of luck or chance. The most difficult thing will be wading through all of the women who will want to be with you. Believe it!
The terms of divorce she put into the petition were really half-baked and very unspecific. It's consistent with her inability to really think complex issues/scenarios through. She just has to plunge right into it. The parenting plan assumed we were going to be highly interactive, and simultaneously assumed we would just work out holidays and vacations on the fly...The ownership of our house is a little complex, for reasons I don't want to get into here. I will say that odds are fair to good that in the long run it will likely have to be sold.
So you have 30 days to respond. In those 30 days you'll give her your counter, which will be based more in reality, better thought-through, and likely scary or provoking to your W. This may wake her up. In her foggy dream state she thinks you'll just take her petition and agree to it. She'll land on her feet some magical way and life will be good. When reality starts creeping in, as with your response, perhaps the tension will awaken her. Or it may make her spew. Who knows. But as 11th hour as it seems (especially with the house -- you won't be selling it immediately even after agreeing to the D), you have some time. Keep being steady, smart, calm, and brave. Not giving you false hope, but you may see some movement in your wife during this time.
And on the other hand, don't be afraid of not finding love again. That's where your DB efforts will pay off. Someone in her right mind will notice, if it doesn't work out with your W.
The parenting plan assumed we were going to be highly interactive, and simultaneously assumed we would just work out holidays and vacations on the fly. I don't think she understands that I don't want us to parent like we're still married or we're best buddies. I need a clean delineation.
FG--I'm interested in what your thinking on this topic. As you know, my W and I are discussing exactly what your W proposed--something much more fluid and interactive. Why won't that work for you (not trying to talk you out of it, but trying to learn from your situation)? What will work for you? How do you want to parent? What does clean delineation mean to you?
G-- thanks for asking. Here's my thinking. I'm not dead set on it and am open to re-evaluating and reconsidering.
It's been a long, painful road for me. I want to be emotionally healthy again. I want to heal from the divorce. I want to move forward with my life. I don't want to wait around for emotional scraps from my wife. An MLC can go on for years, if not decades, and in my opinion my W's MLC is intensified by her lifelong personality issues, so I have little hope that she will change her mind somehow. And, for what it's worth, she's expressed that we're not a good fit. I don't think I'd be a good model to my kids to sit around hurting while my wife is seeking her happiness. And I know I'd be hurting if I sat around wanting, hoping.
If I were to have lots of interactions with her -- many small exchanges or a few long exchanges or both -- that would just prolong my recovery from this divorce. I don't want to see her new life. I don't want to see her new boyfriend(s). I don't want to hear about it, I don't want to see traces of it by being forced to go inside the house. I threw my whole being into loving her, and into the marriage; now that it's over, I must extract my whole self out, to the extent possible.
It is a balancing act, because, obviously there will have to be some time spent in her presence because of our kids. But for me, emotionally, I think the less interaction I have with her, the faster I will be to a healthier place. Maybe 3-4 years down the road, I will have completely recovered and be buddies with her again. I can't do that now. It just hurts too much.
So, practically, what this means is that I will propose a parenting plan where we do "hand-offs" and otherwise try to coordinate by writing. Of course we can talk if serious issues arise. And I will be OK with each of us attending any/all of our kids' extracurricular activities. But I don't want to go to her home and hang out, nor will I want her to come to my home and hang out.
G-- thanks for asking. Here's my thinking. I'm not dead set on it and am open to re-evaluating and reconsidering.
It's been a long, painful road for me. I want to be emotionally healthy again. I want to heal from the divorce. I want to move forward with my life. I don't want to wait around for emotional scraps from my wife. An MLC can go on for years, if not decades, and in my opinion my W's MLC is intensified by her lifelong personality issues, so I have little hope that she will change her mind somehow. And, for what it's worth, she's expressed that we're not a good fit. I don't think I'd be a good model to my kids to sit around hurting while my wife is seeking her happiness. And I know I'd be hurting if I sat around wanting, hoping.
If I were to have lots of interactions with her -- many small exchanges or a few long exchanges or both -- that would just prolong my recovery from this divorce. I don't want to see her new life. I don't want to see her new boyfriend(s). I don't want to hear about it, I don't want to see traces of it by being forced to go inside the house. I threw my whole being into loving her, and into the marriage; now that it's over, I must extract my whole self out, to the extent possible.
It is a balancing act, because, obviously there will have to be some time spent in her presence because of our kids. But for me, emotionally, I think the less interaction I have with her, the faster I will be to a healthier place. Maybe 3-4 years down the road, I will have completely recovered and be buddies with her again. I can't do that now. It just hurts too much.
So, practically, what this means is that I will propose a parenting plan where we do "hand-offs" and otherwise try to coordinate by writing. Of course we can talk if serious issues arise. And I will be OK with each of us attending any/all of our kids' extracurricular activities. But I don't want to go to her home and hang out, nor will I want her to come to my home and hang out.
Fg your a very wise man my friend,you deserve better than her anyway she is a silly woman and will probly live to regret all what she has done and lost,one day she will learns their is no such thing as a perfect life,but the clock is ticking to a time when you won't be their it will be to late,you just about put my sitch and exactly how I feel in what you wrote their,I'm not that good at putting things into words as you have probly noticed,,and yes we will get over we have to that's my goal I'm a little further up the road than you but we will get their to a new happy life with or without them,
And to be honest I'm too old for this s--- ,what my w has done and is doing
And to be honest I'm too old for this s---
Agreed!
Oh Gump, I'm so sorry. I know you have been dreading this.
"Today I found myself thinking about all the ways that she and I don't get along at times; I found myself thinking about how great it would be to be with someone more emotionally generous. I found wondering what it'd feel like to be loved again for who I am. Then I thought about how difficult that is, to find someone who loves you just the way you are."
She's out there. When you're ready. When you're in a better place emotionally, you'll find her. Don't settle for less. Hugs, Gump. There's life after this, I'm sure of it.
It sounds like you have thought a lot about this, more than I have:
***It's been a long, painful road for me. I want to be emotionally healthy again. I want to heal from the divorce. I want to move forward with my life. I don't want to wait around for emotional scraps from my wife.***
Scraps from my wife...that's something for me to chew on (pun intended)...feeding on scraps now...sad...
***An MLC can go on for years, if not decades, and in my opinion my W's MLC is intensified by her lifelong personality issues, so I have little hope that she will change her mind somehow.***
You are realistic...
***And, for what it's worth, she's expressed that we're not a good fit.***
Words, words, words...
***I don't think I'd be a good model to my kids to sit around hurting while my wife is seeking her happiness. And I know I'd be hurting if I sat around wanting, hoping.***
Yes, you can't sit around waiting...your life will go on and you can thrive and be happy..with or without your W (that's what I keep telling myself)...
***If I were to have lots of interactions with her -- many small exchanges or a few long exchanges or both -- that would just prolong my recovery from this divorce.***
You are the best judge of this...
***I don't want to see her new life. I don't want to see her new boyfriend(s). I don't want to hear about it, I don't want to see traces of it by being forced to go inside the house.***
With the kids, isn't it impossible not to see it and hear about it? To me, this is more an issue of detaching...not avoiding it...but I hear you in not wanting your nose pushed into it...
***I threw my whole being into loving her, and into the marriage; now that it's over, I must extract my whole self out, to the extent possible.***
Yes...how does one extract one's whole self out?
***It is a balancing act, because, obviously there will have to be some time spent in her presence because of our kids. But for me, emotionally, I think the less interaction I have with her, the faster I will be to a healthier place. Maybe 3-4 years down the road, I will have completely recovered and be buddies with her again. I can't do that now. It just hurts too much.***
Good for you...to have this self knowledge...I need to work on knowing what will work for me...
***So, practically, what this means is that I will propose a parenting plan where we do "hand-offs" and otherwise try to coordinate by writing. Of course we can talk if serious issues arise. And I will be OK with each of us attending any/all of our kids' extracurricular activities. But I don't want to go to her home and hang out, nor will I want her to come to my home and hang out.***
And that's what your W wants...to still hang out with each other?
And that's what your W wants...to still hang out with each other?
Well, I don't think she wants to hang out per se, but she imagines a more interactive schedule.
Gump,
I don't think your plan is unreasonable at all. What person would expect you to hang out with her or allow her to laze around in your home? Right now is an excellent time to be firm about your boundaries.
I'm fairly certain her life will not be one of rainbows and candy hearts. It will be difficult and nothing to be jealous or envious of...or one that would make you feel like you've failed. In fact, I know you'll recover faster than you think once you get your bearings after this traumatic experience. It's, from what I gather from your postings here, your steady character that will allow you to prevail. It all sounds like a bunch of words now, but that's the trait the keeps life going...not these flighty whims and lack of grounding that your W exhibits. I just hope she doesn't bring you down with her craziness. You're stronger than her and that.
Hugs. Be slow and deliberate. Don't panic. You'll be just fine. (I know, easier said than experienced.)
p.s. I don't mean to make it sound like a war against your wife. It's not. It's about maintaining your spirit and not letting her chip away at it.
Thanks 10.
Funny that you say steady character... I know it's partly true but these days I really feel like I'm being tossed around by some big waves in the sea. Walking around with my throat, heart and stomach in knots; my vision feels dim around the edges, and I could imagine myself shoveling dirt onto my own grave.
I know I gotta toughen the hell up, and put one foot in front of the other.
Of course you feel that way. You're human and not a psychopath. Who wouldn't feel tossed around and lost in this situation? But you're going to keep your ship afloat despite the big waves. You won't let it capsize. This I know. And though you feel like you're dying a slow death...(I'm right there with you)...you're not.
No, there is really no way to speed up the process and have a successful ending.
If your mlcing spouse is jarred or snatched out of his crisis, he will eventually go back into crisis and it will be far worse than the first time around. The best thing to do is leave him alone and give him plenty of time and space to figure things out. I know it's tough, but you've got to do it. It's a time for you to do the things that you haven't done in a while, a time to work on those things that you don't like about yourself and yes, live your life to the fullest. There is no guarantee that you and your spouse will reconcile. It's 50/50 change of going either way. The reason I say this is: 1) he may decide that it's too much work to reconcile; 2)too much damage was created during the crisis; 3) you may have moved on and discovered that you do not want him back. Bottom line, at the end of the day, the lbs is the one that will ultimately decide whether they want them back or not.
Dig deep for patience, stay positive and have faith in the man upstairs. Take care of yourself and keep the focus on you.
This was wrote by job on another post,
Journaling:
I gave her the signed affidavit saying I got a copy of the petition.
She's been cordial but distant. I think I'm being distant too, but friendly.
For reasons I don't want to explain here, I'll be the one to move out after the divorce.
Suddenly it feels like my clock is ticking. So I looked at a few places today, and unexpectedly found a house that I really liked. So much so that I wished I could buy it. I put in an application to rent.
If that house works out, I could move there as early as mid-Feb. But I'll want a little time to get the house set up before bringing kids there. So early March is probably more likely. Will talk to our kids after I definitely have a place to move to.
The excitement of setting my new house buoyed my spirits at times. At other times, I felt like I had the flu.
I've been thinking forever about how we're going to tell our kids about the divorce. I think my older one (jr. high) will be sad but OK. The younger one (elementary school age) will be bewildered and sad.
Song in my head:
"Sometimes I wish that I could stop you from talking
when I hear the silly things that you say.
I think somebody better put out the big light,
cause I can't stand to see you this way."
(What can I say, I grew up in the late 70's, early 80's...)
I've also been thinking forever about how I'm going to break the news to my Mom (my Dad passed a few years ago). She doesn't know anything. She'll be utterly heartbroken for me.
I'm glad you see some positive aspects of the move, that the new house lifts your spirits a bit.
Telling the kids is the worst, cruelest part. My mom doesn't know either. That won't be tough because she doesn't like my H.
That song is actually loving and forgiving. That's good.
I've been thinking forever about how we're going to tell our kids about the divorce. I think my older one (jr. high) will be sad but OK. The younger one (elementary school age) will be bewildered and sad.
The single, hardest thing I've ever done. Period. One of the worst things about it is that we don't have words to comfort their shattered world. And that's what it really is - their world will be shattered. How it shapes them (and it WILL shape them for life) depends a lot on what you do and how you react. I'm sure that you know the rule - never speak ill of their mom in front of them, no matter how bad she is. It will come back.
You are doing great, Gump.
I've also been thinking forever about how I'm going to break the news to my Mom (my Dad passed a few years ago). She doesn't know anything. She'll be utterly heartbroken for me.
No better way that straight forward.
***I gave her the signed affidavit saying I got a copy of the petition. She's been cordial but distant. I think I'm being distant too, but friendly.***
Distant but friendly...that's a good one...it seems like I can only do distant/cold and friendly/warm...ugh...
***For reasons I don't want to explain here, I'll be the one to move out after the divorce.***
Sadly, I'm in the same boat...
***Suddenly it feels like my clock is ticking. So I looked at a few places today, and unexpectedly found a house that I really liked. So much so that I wished I could buy it. I put in an application to rent.***
I thought you were going to have to sell the house and everyone moves out?
***If that house works out, I could move there as early as mid-Feb. But I'll want a little time to get the house set up before bringing kids there. So early March is probably more likely. Will talk to our kids after I definitely have a place to move to.***
So you are going to wait longer to tell them, when you have the custody details worked out?
***The excitement of setting my new house buoyed my spirits at times.***
That's great!
***At other times, I felt like I had the flu.***
Physically, emotionally or both? Feel better.
***I've been thinking forever about how we're going to tell our kids about the divorce. I think my older one (jr. high) will be sad but OK. The younger one (elementary school age) will be bewildered and sad.***
If you have pointers for me, let me know. I too have a D soundtrack in my head so sad and funny at the same time. It's quite an eclectic group of songs, but the one on repeat is..."I can't make you love me, if you don't; I can't make your heart feel, something it won't..."
Yes, that song is often in my head too, especially these lines:
"Morning will come and I'll do what's right
Just give me till then to give up this fight
And I will give up this fight"I also find myself humming often "A Good Year for the Roses". I like both the GJ and EC versions.
I thought you were going to have to sell the house and everyone moves out?
My W will try to keep the house but I believe she will have great difficulty.
So you are going to wait longer to tell them, when you have the custody details worked out?
I personally would like to wait until (a) we agree to the terms of our divorce; and (b) I have a new place set up to move into. This is something yet to be fully discussed with my wife.
In my mind, I think it would be good to tell them on a Saturday, then go over and see the new home, and have them get a little excited (hopefully) about setting up their new rooms, and maybe take them shopping and/or have them work on settling in.
What I don't want is for them to get the news about having their world split in half, but then have no tangible idea of what that looks like. If it was all just theoretical, I think they'd just be confused and worried.
My half-baked thoughts at this point....
***At other times, I felt like I had the flu.***
Physically, emotionally or both?
Both. Physical manifestation of depression.
It will pass. It has to.
Believe that this depression will pass. It will as long as you don't lose faith that it will. Easier said than done, I know.
And let yourself come back in due time to those little thoughts about the house (or another, if this one doesn't work out) and what your new life might be like, FG. Those thoughts are some of the first tender shoots of healing tentatively poking their head out of the ground. They are in their own way your Soul telling you that your depression will pass, and that the future is worth waiting on.
Give it time. Go through your grieving process and know it WILL pass, Gump.
Glad you found a place you likes. Hope you get it.
I think your idea of how to tell your kids is a good one. I wish I had other options than the way mine found out. It's going to be hard on them either way, but you're smart in the way you're handling it. Good luck!
These mlcs are cruel creatures,most on a path to self destruct,and damage hurt a lot of good genuine people on their way threw their journey,
so far My w has damaged me damaged her children,
Lost her house,
Lost me,
Lost her best friend,
Lost her dignity tottaly
And still going,
You can't stop them only they can,
The only thing you can really do is jump ship,detach,or they will keep taking you down with them,and you can only hope they swim up before its to late