Help - Setting Boundaries, WW in EA - Thread #2

[Woke_Up]

Old Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719993#Post2719993

[sandi2]

Since you are back in the MBR, my suggestion is to stay there. If anyone moves out again, it should be her. Don't get into a knockdown drag out trying to force her out. In fact, I would not mention it for now. I think you need to get more grounded about what to do, before lunging into something else.

I've been meaning to ask.......... if you work all day, and she stays home with one four-year old child, why are you the parent to tend to the child during the evenings and throughout the night? I know what was posted, but what is the true reason that she gets to go off alone, and hang the closed sign out on her door? I mean really, this is one child who will probably enroll in kindergarten next year.........and your W just turns everything over to you as soon as you get home? Just think about it.

While you think about it, there may be several things that come to mind in how you try to be accomadating, to prevent a rucus. If I had to guess, I would say you fall into the category of H's who will do most anything to keep peace with the W, especially if she rules by her mood swings. The older I get, the more important it is to have peace in my life. People can compromise a lot to have peace. After working all day at the job, you don't want to go home and deal with anything that threatens a peaceful evening. I get it. My concern in what I am seeing in young families today, is H's being bullied and threatened by the moods of the W. He doesn't want to do something that might set her off. It is no different than the schoolyard bully. The H will do most anything to avoid conflict with the bully. Problem is, the bully knows it, and things get worse.

Well I strayed away from what I originally wanted to post. Just threw all that additional in free of charge.

If you're still reading along, I want to encourage you to take no big leaps without discussing it with the board first. B/c people do it before they know what they are really doing.......and then they have a bigger problem to face.

I hope you will read all my threads on wayward wives. Also, I believe Vanilla has some threads about abuse, as well as Surfer. I think you need to read these threads with an open mind to the possibilities it could be your current situation.

Previously, you asked me about who should initiate sex. Well, if you read the WW threads, you will probably see my opinion about it. Not everyone agrees about having sex or not. I am wondering if you may get confused about some of these issues b/c you are trying to be a better H........or rather, what you think a better H would do. I suggest this is not the time period for overtly demonstrating your ideas of a better a H. Your idea about a better H......and what she really needs......could be completely opposite. Some WW's don't even give truthful explanations about what they really want in their H.

Your love may not be phased by your W's behavior. That is fine. I am not saying to stop loving her. I am saying that what you demonstrate going forward in this, may look differently than what you have previously shown her (the catering, accommodation, availability, etc.) However, your love is still there. You will be able to return to the outward show of affection, as soon as she stops being abusive and wayward. In the meantime, you should observe her interactions with you, and determine if you detect a lack of respect. Everything is based on either having your W's respect, or having the lack of respect. As a wife, she will not desire you without feeling respect for you. Even if she has sex, it doesn't mean it's you she is desiring. . The proof is in her actions/behavior toward her H.

What is desperately needed is for you to be a man who has confidence, and who is not afraid to stand up to his bullying, wayward wife. A man who refuses to take her abuse, or to continue enabling her bad behavior. A man who knows what he will not tolerate, and is not afraid to set boundaries against the intolerable. A man who commands respect from those who live under his roof. A man who will not rescue his abusive wife when she faces consequences of her own doing. Well, I could go on & on, but I hope you get the picture. If executed properly, you will become the H she needs.....and wants (although she probably won't tell you until she stops being abusive and wayward).

Your W will not get the message through your words. She receives the message through your actions.

[Vanilla]

Yup

Stay in the MBR. If WW tries any tricks then say "I am recording this conversation, would you repeat that".

False accusations are criminal offences.


V

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Sandi and Vanilla.

That helps - I was getting confused about the goal of getting back in the MBR then being too accommodating.

Today has been a bad day on that front - I have been way too accommodating. OK, I did refuse to buy her some things when we took our D out to the city to spend her Christmas money, but she then asked me to go back in with her bank card and buy them while she waited with D outside.

I know that I am not helping the situation, in fact I am facilitating by continuing this weak stance. Your words about getting grounded strike a chord. I don't feel grounded at the moment.

I'll give a full response in the morning, I need to sleep and get my head straight for now.

[Woke_Up]

oooh, today's a doozy.

WW spoiling for a fight all day, (well, since last night) and got her way just now. Pushed my buttons.

Asked me if I was a psychopath (she's been listening to stuff on Psychos on Youtube again), asked me how I knew, so I said I felt genuine emotions, and she said she had never seen any. I SHOULD know better. I knew even as it was happening.

I lit up, grabbed her phone, proved she was contacting OM, threw her phone out of the room into the hallway (soft landing, carpeted), went into her lack of respect, etc. Let her know I had seen messages she had been sending (my bad), said it wasn't on that she was talking about SS16 issues with OM, etc etc.

I apologised for losing control. Said I would discuss anything with her calmly. Said I wanted to fix our R but can't work on it will she is engaged in EA. That until she realised that this (our R and family) was worth more than the EA, that we couldn't work on all the past issues (she was trying to drag them up). That I knew she was trying to manipulate me.

Anyway, she actually smiled as I was showing her the phone, like she was laughing my my face. She claims she was laughing at my behaviour. I was furious after that.

Then she started telling me I triggered her anxiety. I responded that her affair triggers her anxiety.

Anyway, have calmed down. She's trying to manipulate me into making her a cup of tea, so I said she can't treat me like her b!tch while she is abusing and disrespecting me like this. Then she tried to guilt me because she had made supper.

I'm really annoyed at myself. DB'ing went out of the window, sometimes I'm like an observer of my own outbursts but just as a passenger, unable to intervene until it's too late.

Have said to WW that I allowed her to push my buttons, that that was what she set out to do, and that I shouldn't have allowed it, I'm my own worst enemy. Even managed a wry laugh about it.

Let's see what this evening brings. Fun & games.

[doodler]

Asked me if I was a psychopath (she's been listening to stuff on Psychos on Youtube again), asked me how I knew, so I said I felt genuine emotions, and she said she had never seen any. I SHOULD know better. I knew even as it was happening.

Woke_Up,

My W (now xW) claimed that I was a psychopath and a narcissist. When we talked to the MC, the MC assured my W that I'm not a psychopath or a narcissist. It didn't matter; according to my wife, because I'm a psychopath, I somehow was able to bend the MC to my will and make her believe I was just a normal guy. You just have to embrace psychopathy and run with it.

Like Austin Powers said to Dr. Evil while they were ascending a ladder, "I thought you were crazy, but now I see your nuts."

[Woke_Up]

It's all gone wrong again. Massive bust up (because I wouldn't plug her phone in to charge), said she didn't see why I wouldn't apply my rules to sleeping arrangements. I said I would, she could move to spare room, I wouldn't move out.

WW started getting abusive and threatening. I said I would have to record on my phone if she did. I started recording, and when I reminded her of this (she called me a rapist again) she went nuts.

All in front of D4, who was in tears. I feel awful for letting it get to this.

Now she is saying I will need to use violence to get in MBR. Initially she was saying I would have to give her money for a bed, I said I would pay her wages and dividends. She wanted extra money.

She got SS16 involved to move bed, then decided that she didn't want out, and that if I left the room, she will keep me out by force. I will have to 'physically assault her' or 'beat her up' to get in.

Talk about 'well that escalated quickly'.

She hates her privacy being invaded... as much as I hate my MR being betrayed I guess.

So what now????

[Woke_Up]

Just thinking - there has always been no negotiating with WW. Even in early arguments, her going in point was well if you don't like it, you can leave...

I guess the writing was on the wall.

She also started bringing D and custody into it, saying she would have D - which is true. She would get the house (maybe, not sure as we're not married. It is in joint names). I would still have to pay for everything.

It doesn't really matter, I will never deprive the kids, I just hate being threatened with it.

[Jug]

Talk to a lawyer ASAP. Sorry things are so bad.

[Woke_Up]

Since you are back in the MBR, my suggestion is to stay there. If anyone moves out again, it should be her. Don't get into a knockdown drag out trying to force her out. In fact, I would not mention it for now.

Ah yes... about that.

Didn't mean to get into it at all, all blew up out of a little thing about me not plugging her phone in, escalated into me not being her b!tch while she was continuing EA, to why not carry it across into sleeping arrangements - to which I replied fine. She was welcome to sleep elsewhere. Then all of the stuff about her bad pelvis and back from having MY child, etc etc (see other reply below). Threats, followed by my recording, followed by BOOM!

I think you need to get more grounded about what to do, before lunging into something else.

Failed.

I've been meaning to ask.......... if you work all day, and she stays home with one four-year old child, why are you the parent to tend to the child during the evenings and throughout the night? I know what was posted, but what is the true reason that she gets to go off alone, and hang the closed sign out on her door? I mean really, this is one child who will probably enroll in kindergarten next year.........and your W just turns everything over to you as soon as you get home? Just think about it.

D has already started kindergarten since September, plus she went to nursery school 2 or 3 times a week prior to that. D is at school from 8:55AM to 3:30PM. W does housework, cooks, cleans, shops, has online conversations with OM. Yet she is hard done by when she talks about it, slaving for the rest of us. My life is easy as I have a desk job and sit on a train for 5 hours a day. Look, I'm not knocking what she does or what she has done in looking after the home and bringing up the kids, but I do think she has lost a lot of perspective from when she was a single parent living in rented accommodation with barely enough to pay the bills.

While you think about it, there may be several things that come to mind in how you try to be accomadating, to prevent a rucus. If I had to guess, I would say you fall into the category of H's who will do most anything to keep peace with the W, especially if she rules by her mood swings.

She does

The older I get, the more important it is to have peace in my life. People can compromise a lot to have peace. After working all day at the job, you don't want to go home and deal with anything that threatens a peaceful evening. I get it. My concern in what I am seeing in young families today, is H's being bullied and threatened by the moods of the W. He doesn't want to do something that might set her off. It is no different than the schoolyard bully. The H will do most anything to avoid conflict with the bully. Problem is, the bully knows it, and things get worse.

That strikes true enough. I have let myself be railroaded & dominated in this R. It hasn't been taht way in other R's, I guess it was just force of personality from someone who relishes conflict and someone who is conflict averse.

Well I strayed away from what I originally wanted to post. Just threw all that additional in free of charge.

It's appreciated.

If you're still reading along, I want to encourage you to take no big leaps without discussing it with the board first. B/c people do it before they know what they are really doing.......and then they have a bigger problem to face.

Could I borrow your crystal ball please? You evidently have one. But hopefully you get an idea of how quickly minor things (not plugging in he phone) escalate (different rooms, threats, R is over). She is using everything in the book against me, knows I can't use any sort of physical force.

I don't know how the land lies. She is upstairs 'calmer'? She smoked a joint (she's taken to doing that again recently before bed, she occasionally gets a bit compulsive about things. Doesn't bother me, TBH. She says her anxiety is bad now. (I'm assuming that will be my fault in her mind).

I hope you will read all my threads on wayward wives. Also, I believe Vanilla has some threads about abuse, as well as Surfer. I think you need to read these threads with an open mind to the possibilities it could be your current situation.

I'm assuming those are the ones titled info for LBH's with WW? I have started reading them, and was going over them again tonight. I will have to do some digging on Vanilla and Surfer's older posts.

Previously, you asked me about who should initiate sex. Well, if you read the WW threads, you will probably see my opinion about it. Not everyone agrees about having sex or not. I am wondering if you may get confused about some of these issues b/c you are trying to be a better H........or rather, what you think a better H would do. I suggest this is not the time period for overtly demonstrating your ideas of a better a H. Your idea about a better H......and what she really needs......could be completely opposite. Some WW's don't even give truthful explanations about what they really want in their H.

Well, it's off the table for now. I declined last time she asked. Then later that night she came up late to bed, was affectionate for a while. Got into a discussion, where I said I couldn't while she was carrying on. She said she was going to end it soon, but couldn't do it at Christmas! Then she said I was wasting time, she was running out of time (getting older) to have another child. I questioned if she wanted to have another one with me, she said yes. Anyway, later she asked me to rub her back and stuff, which I did, then she asked if I was going to use her??? hen I asked why she would say that, she said I seemed very cold. I tried to tell her that it was because of the current situation, and I hadn't planned on ML. Next morning, she was late getting up, so didn't want to take D to park with me to meet her sister and kids. Sister then cancelled it - WW blamed me for keeping her up late (I had gone to bed at 10:30, she had come up after midnight and kept us talking for another hour +).

It was pretty similar last night. I had to go and pick up SS16, got him home, read him riot act for not getting his arrangements sorted in advance. Went up to bed. Then W wanted bedroom to herself for a bit of solo time, if you know what I mean. When I came up afterwards, she then started going on about orgasms, how she was hard done by as she had to share a bed, started accusing me of never flirting with her, various other things, then said it was just that she could never forgive me for the large disagreements we were having earlier in the year (it's hard to describe on this forum, and not sure I'd want to get into it, but it was something she took very seriously, relating to the political situation/mass immigration/demographics over in the UK, especially following the Cologne sex attacks by migrants) - it was Cologne that initially triggered her anxiety, combined with me being in London and various terror attacks happening in UK & Europe.

Your love may not be phased by your W's behavior.

It's surviving. I wouldn't say un-phased.

That is fine. I am not saying to stop loving her. I am saying that what you demonstrate going forward in this, may look differently than what you have previously shown her (the catering, accommodation, availability, etc.) However, your love is still there. You will be able to return to the outward show of affection, as soon as she stops being abusive and wayward. In the meantime, you should observe her interactions with you, and determine if you detect a lack of respect. Everything is based on either having your W's respect, or having the lack of respect. As a wife, she will not desire you without feeling respect for you. Even if she has sex, it doesn't mean it's you she is desiring. . The proof is in her actions/behavior toward her H.

Oh, there is a definite lack of respect.

What is desperately needed is for you to be a man who has confidence, and who is not afraid to stand up to his bullying, wayward wife. A man who refuses to take her abuse, or to continue enabling her bad behavior. A man who knows what he will not tolerate, and is not afraid to set boundaries against the intolerable. A man who commands respect from those who live under his roof. A man who will not rescue his abusive wife when she faces consequences of her own doing. Well, I could go on & on, but I hope you get the picture. If executed properly, you will become the H she needs.....and wants (although she probably won't tell you until she stops being abusive and wayward).

I hope so. I just think that it is likely to have to go to very strong actions to her forceful ways. She would try and force me out of the house before admitting she was wrong. She won't even accept sleeping in a slightly less comfortable bed, due to her back and pelvis problems - my fault, MY child. Or hers when it suits her. I nearly said she could have the bed in the other room, and for a moment she was going for it, then I changed my mind, then she said she would get SS16 to help her move the bed (well, she was actually going to take D's room and move D into what was the spare room), then she changed her mind again and said she would not give up HER rom and would force me out by any means necessary, and once out I would not get back in without using force or violence against her.

Your W will not get the message through your words. She receives the message through your actions.

Yes. I hope you get the general idea of what I am up against. She will fight dirty and immediately go nuclear option. No gradual build up.

I am tempted just to move her stuff into anther room one day. She can have the damn bed if she wants, although it is a bit large for any other room in the house. I'm going to make an appt to see a L - I had foolishly put it off being so close to Christmas. At the minute she seems to think her options are sitting pretty. She will get the house if we split, I will still pay for everything, etc. I need to get a clear understanding of what the truth actually is in this situation. I don't think it is as clear cut as she would kid herself.

[/quote]

[Woke_Up]

Talk to a lawyer ASAP. Sorry things are so bad.

Thanks Jug. I plan on it. I'll see what it's like when I go upstairs. It may have just been a rage build up / payoff. She really took a dislike to being recorded. She thinks I'm a 'pervert' for recording her? I had told her I would record her, but I don't think she realised that I had pressed record until I reminded her after she called me a rapist again (she seems unclear on the actual definition of rape, if she thinks me being in my own room qualifies).

Anyway, I allowed her to delete the message. I had already emailed it to another email account before I did so, though. Just in case.

I'll keep posting.

[Woke_Up]

Yup

Stay in the MBR. If WW tries any tricks then say "I am recording this conversation, would you repeat that".

False accusations are criminal offences.


V

That didn't go so well tonight

[Vanilla]

Yes but now she knows you will protect yourself.

It's important

V

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Vanilla

I ended up staying in MBR last night anyway. I just went in there and started reading a book while she wasn't in there. When she came back upstairs (probably after a couple of spliffs) , she didn't say anything other than to ask what I was reading.

I need to get reading the Verbally Abusive Relationship, I think.

[sandi2]

I have skimmed over several Internet sites on the topic of the emotional bullying wife. I was mainly seeking solutions, and sorry to say.......not much was offered. I mainly found "signs" of emotional bullying. I found one Christian based site that offered suggestions, and the others just said to get a divorce b/c she would never change, and one said they had seen some men change, but not the bullying abuse from a wife. Hopefully, a complete book devoted to the subject will be more helpful.

If you doubt you are M to an emotional bullying W, just check out the list of signs! Oh, I also found it frustrating that I was unable to find practical solutions for the H who has an emotional abusive W who was in an A and wants a D!

I did stumble onto one site that talked about the importance of personal boundaries, detaching from the abuser, speaking up, calling the abusive w out on her bad behavior, and some other things. Do not keep it hidden or a secret. Reach out to a friend, group support, counselor, etc. And......do not feed the bully what she wants.

I think some H's are thrown by her initiating sex or affection. It is a manipulative move from her, to keep control of the R. One site said to never give in to the bully and think you just need to love her more, b/c that is the worst thing.

I think about the only difference in male and female bullies in a MR, is the male doesn't wear lipstick. Personally, I think females are more manipulative and usually can use sex for leverage, but that's just me.

Others on the board who have lived with an abuser can be much more helpful. I just wanted you to know that I was trying to find something to give you, and had not forsaken you.

Don't be ashamed to reach out for help and let someone know what is going on.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

Sorry chap. Been a tad busy. Just catching up....Sat with the last of the Christmas Port, Kids in bed all happy and sound asleep.

Drama Triangle. This normally ends up with persecution. In your example there was none. He may have gone V to get R however! I see your point. The DT is more for you. When W acts as a V, you R, she then pushes you to V and she becomes P. This is a pattern to watch for and exit the game ASAP.

MBR. If you are in, stay and explain why - its your F@+king Bed. No need to say anything, just don't move out again. If she needs space, she can go find it. Alternatively, say (boundary) I can't sleep in the same bed with someone that is in an affair. It's disrespectful to me and our R and our F. Sorry, I will not move back until this stops.

Boundaries. As above. These are to show you have a boundary and there are consequences for failure to observe it. This is tricky for me too. But see my post (not written yet).

I will post on the rest. Just catching up...

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

Sorry chap. Been a tad busy. Just catching up....Sat with the last of the Christmas Port, Kids in bed all happy and sound asleep.

Drama Triangle. This normally ends up with persecution. In your example there was none. He may have gone V to get R however! I see your point. The DT is more for you. When W acts as a V, you R, she then pushes you to V and she becomes P. This is a pattern to watch for and exit the game ASAP.

MBR. If you are in, stay and explain why - its your F@+king Bed. No need to say anything, just don't move out again. If she needs space, she can go find it. Alternatively, say (boundary) I can't sleep in the same bed with someone that is in an affair. It's disrespectful to me and our R and our F. Sorry, I will not move back until this stops.

Boundaries. As above. These are to show you have a boundary and there are consequences for failure to observe it. This is tricky for me too. But see my post (not written yet).

I will post on the rest. Just catching up...

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Is there an echo in here?

[Surfer]

she is also a shareholder of it

In your position. I would consider removing her from this role. I have set up a new business which is flying. She is not a shareholder - should be for the same reasons your W is. Take away all financial help is my view. A boundary. Others may have similar or differing views. Put it this way, I chose not to have my W as a shareholder for a reason. Zero involvement zero control.

Your W wants control. She wants to control you. She is. You deserve to be treated in the way your allow people to treat you. Take your bo!!ocks back. She does not know what to do with them anyway.

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Thank you Sandi, much appreciated as always.

Today has been OK - she has been semi affectionate at times (prob a temp check), a bit crabby and sarcastic (as usual) at others.

My main trouble is, with W & D around all the time (holidays), I haven't even had 5 minutes to set up an appointment with L, which I want to do, just so I have some facts to keep me steady. I tend to bluster & BS when I don't have facts, and that's easy to spot. If I can take away the fear of not seeing kids every day and the financial fear (if I still have to pay for everything and she gets to stay in the house) - then it will help. I'd like to know that if we S, then at least the house would be sold and we could split any equity. I'm not tight, I just would like to be able to live in a place where D or SS can stay over. I would never have an issue with paying child support, over and above the UK legal requirement. I think it is going to take this much for her to get the wake up call. If I just leave and am financing everything and being held hostage over the kids, it won't work, she won't get the message.

I'm still in the MBR. I'm planning on buying some furniture for it for my stuff - think I mentioned that I had been out of it for so long and that it had never even had my clothes in it. I'm not surprised she started to think of it as hers... but then she started to take control of every room in the house and make those hers as well.

The downside of the MBR is that I can't read any of the books I've bought (DR/Verbal Abusive R's, Love must be Tough).

Tomorrow she has some friends over (Mum's of D's school friends) with their kids, so she told me I could go out (nice). She later managed to change that into you can lock yourself in the study or work in the garden and wasn't happy when I said I'd planned on going out. Started moaning that she supposed SHE would have to do it all. Gaslighting again. Now as it happens, I'd already planned on doing some of the so called 'Manly' tasks, but I will be going to meet a friend I haven't seen for quite a while for lunch. Next week I'm starting some GAL one evening a week and a Saturday morning.

Thanks for your support, I'll keep posting... and I'll keep trying to man up

[Surfer]

WW spoiling for a fight all day

NEVER, EVER, EVER take the bait. You are facilitating this matey. STOP!

NEVER TAKE THE BAIT. You know what she is doing.

she was laughing my my face.

Damn right she was!!!!

She's trying to manipulate me

No sh!t Sherlock! You even understand this and you know what you SHOULD do!!

I SHOULD know better. I knew even as it was happening.

Get a grip. Windsor Davies. Look through her at these times, not at her. Don't focus on her. Listen, but don't feel her emotions. Windsor Davies! "Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind". Got it!! You need to become an impenetrable shield. Why, because:

1 - She will continue to hurt you
2 - She will continue to hurt your children
3 - You will dominate communication as she spews (she is only trying to take control as she feels weak)
4 - You deserve respect, this is disrespectful manipulation

Again:

Get a grip. Windsor Davies. Look through her at these times, not at her. Don't focus on her. Listen, but don't feel her emotions. Windsor Davies! "Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind". Got it!! You need to become an impenetrable shield. If needs be, validate, but lightly. Windsor does this, "Oh Dear, How Sad". You do it by saying that seems tricky, I believe you etc (only).

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Okay. Fired early and hadn't read everything.

Don't fret about the MBR row. Your D will remember of course. You must STOP all arguing in front of the kids. They learn how to interact from this.

Here is my prediction, your sitch follows mine so closely. Your W will eventually leave your house and take your kids (Me), possible vs she may get a shock and stay (see Sandi).

I do believe your W is abusive. Have you read the book on abuse yet? It may be physical, it may be FOO - frankly who gives a sh!t. It is what it is. My W's is FOO and potentially physical IMHO.

Fact is women who do this do it gradually but escalating quickly from the point they think they have your b@lls and you will never leave. It happens to good guys. I know you are a good guy also you are NOT a pu$$y. You are a good guy. Its her problem. Basically, it is very, very unlikely she will ever change. Sorry - read the book....

Right now, separate all finances. Hand her over to the OM and walk the fcuk away is my view - in your mind. You could actually do it, but like you, I couldn't because my kids were scared. Now, looking back at the point you are in, the thing that damages most is the arguing in front of the kids. If it is not possible to stop them hear M start to shout then exit, you must NEVER react (let them remember only her). Got to bed earlier etc. In time if they talk, they will talk about M's shouting. Don't let them remember yours. If it does not happen ever again, they can't remember it.

W will try and goad you into physical abuse. You must not EVER take this bait. I have had this. The good thing about good guys is we don't hit women. The Verbally Abusive Woman preys on this security. It's win, win. She will escalate until the point she hits you or she goads you to do the same. My W got Physical then left. I never did. I couldn't.

You must walk at first sight of her picking a fight. Go to bed at 9pm, go for a run, a drive etc.

Another warning, my W used to encourage me to drink (not bottles of whiskey but get a few in with friends). She did this so my guard was not rock solid. I would do what you did, I engaged. I learned quickly.

There are some dark days ahead mate. Sorry, but be prepared. Your armour is STFU. That's it.

Problem is, my W found an account in her name (rest tied down), with a lot of money in it (an ISA I set up for her, again tax efficient), she took that and ran. Okay not ideal, but I can handle that. See the abuse 'for the kids' stopped. For me it goes on. But with the book on abuse and other learning, I have more skills that Pele on acid!!! I am slowly going to close down the manipulation. V is amazing at this!!! She has has a much crazier WS than me and is a total genius on this. I am very much still learning. But she has helped me so much (V - if you are reading this - thank you so much!).

You must learn to control all reactions. Mindfulness apps are great for this right now for you. Try Headspace and Calm there are others. They cost nothing.

Listen brother. I am steps ahead but have had a very similar journey (they are never the same). Know this, its all about how you conduct you for you and the kids. I will paste a recent message on my post for you to read. To give you hope.

Keep it tight. YOU - do it for your D and SS (he has seen this all his life I bet! - poor lad). You owe it to him too.

Final point. You DID NOT CAUSE THIS!!! You really, really did not. I can not express this strongly enough. Also, you will NEVER cure her. Only she can. She probably won't IMHO. The reason I believe this is that you clearly apologise for your own outbursts. Does she???

Final, final point. If she smokes the odd spliff. Most likely so do you. Don't. No excessive drink and no drugs are a total No NO. Even a spliff will bring a grumpy down at some point and you will be tempted to spew. Same with hangovers. She can.

Keep a record of everything too. One that can be relied on in court if needs be.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Stop seeing problems. "The main problem is".

Solutions.

Surfer.

[PatientMan]

Woke_Up,

You have GOT to detach. What do you know about this process?

-PM

[cbtdad]

Patricia Evans, who is an expert on Verbally Abusive behavior and wrote many books, says that in her experience she has never seen a woman who is verbally abusive change.
I am a verbally abusive man and controlling person. My marriage may not make it because of it. But I've worked very hard on me and my issues, but it's going to be a lifelong effort to work on this. It's something that was engrained in me over time when I was younger.
I think it's best you detach and do your best to move forward.
I know that's really tough, but it may be best I believe.

[Surfer]

Cbtdad echoes what I am saying.

Look, we are all verbally abusive at times IMHO. However, if you are able to say I am sorry and mean it and, hopefully, not repeat the abuse (telling you W 'she is wrong', 'you don't mean that', calling names etc), you are not abusive. Abuse is systematic covert or over but constant. If your W struggles to, or never, apologises then she is most likely abusive and sadly she may never change. The book I pointed you towards is Patricia Evan's. Learn to cope with her for now, strengthen yourself and DO NOT ENGAGE.

I am so sorry you are going through this. It's not your fault. In many ways it's not hers either. Someone else damaged that little girl in your W. Try and be as kind and sympathetic as you can but do not get on the crazy train.

If it helps, you are not alone. I have lived this and a, still living this, it gets better but it's not yet amazing. It will be however, for I control my own happiness. You control yours too....

Just be as strong as you can be for your D and SS and don't expose them to any animosity at all if you can.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Have you read about projection? It might help.

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Final, final point. If she smokes the odd spliff. Most likely so do you. Don't. No excessive drink and no drugs are a total No NO.

Surfer - thanks mate. You've written loads and I will digest and get back to you. Really appreciate it all.

I thought I'd answer this point though - as most of my contracts are in the rail industry, with he ever present possibility of a random drug & alcohol test, I can confidently say there are no drugs of any type for me. Weed is the worst and it stays in your system the longest. I would never jeopardise my ability to provide for my family. I'm not holier than though, I have dabbled in the past, but this is now. I barely even get to crack a beer these days.

Cheers

[Woke_Up]

If your W struggles to, or never, apologises then she is most likely abusive and sadly she may never change.
Surfer.

This is her. Even yesterday when I asked her to apologise for the unfounded rapist comments, she thought I was talking about the EA and said she won't apologise, she won't be forced to apologise, she will only do it for herself.... which is rarely.

You're right. Someone once told me that behavioural personalities are set by teh time someone is 5 years old. Not sure if this is true, but I do know that growing up her father was controlling, mentally abusive to her mother, and mentally and physically abusive to her - she was the one tat always stood up to him, and therefore always took the beatings.

When I met her, she was 12 months out of a cr@ppy co-dependent R, and still not over it. She pretty much hated men while still wanting me. I guess this is where my rescuer personality came in. Thought I could prove to her that not all men are a-holes. You're right. She is damaged from before. It is not her fault. I do not know if she would even acknowledge it as damage. She says her childhood made her stronger, the person she is today, who takes no cr@p.

I have the book you mention, I'm waiting to get into it. The irony of actually being in this situation and having virtually no private time to do any reading. I'm back at work on Tuesday, with plenty of train time for my reading.

[Woke_Up]

Stop seeing problems. "The main problem is".

Solutions.

Surfer.

Rumbled. Gotcha. Thanks for assisting the clarity mate.

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up,

You have GOT to detach. What do you know about this process?

-PM

PatientMan

I know a bit about the theory. I have read the DR book, and understand that it is going into Observer mode. Not cold, or distant, as V pointed out to me, stay close, but taking a third person view of the interactions, leaving the emotions out of it.

Putting into practice is sometimes difficult. I have been extremely un-detached last night and this morning. WW has been showing affection and I have been responding. I can't help thinking it's temperature checking, as Sandi puts it. Thinking a bit more clearly now.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up,

I am partly pleased and partly sad to tell you that this book will change you. It is Pandora's Box. When (if - it's a choice) you read and underline those bits that resonate. Flick through the pages and see how many you have identified with.

You will probably feel a 'fool' for being misled. But love did this. You ignored the sign posts. As did I. However, remember that it will strengthen you. It will make you SuperDad. You will have skills that can help you D and SS with. And you must help him too - I am sure it's different.

Also remember she is not bad. She is mixed up. You didn't do this to her. You only tried to love her. Yes, of course, you made mistakes. But would they be so abnormal for any W to take this route? No.

Read and ask questions if you need to. I will help you where I am able. I am not expert, at all, but I know what I know through what you are doing. Like I say, months if not years ahead. I will help you to help all of you. You W included.

Keep on keeping on.

Surfer.

[sandi2]

You asked about the WW threads, when you go to the last page of first thread, it will give you link to next one. There are several in all.

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Sandi

I am working my way through. It is clear that there is zero respect, quite a bit of resentment and rebellion.

I need to reset myself and start again. Yesterday I was pure cake feeding.

[PatientMan]

Woke_Up,

You have GOT to detach. What do you know about this process?

-PM

PatientMan

I know a bit about the theory. I have read the DR book, and understand that it is going into Observer mode. Not cold, or distant, as V pointed out to me, stay close, but taking a third person view of the interactions, leaving the emotions out of it.

Putting into practice is sometimes difficult. I have been extremely un-detached last night and this morning. WW has been showing affection and I have been responding. I can't help thinking it's temperature checking, as Sandi puts it. Thinking a bit more clearly now.

I don't want to muddy up the waters of advice you are receiving, but I can get you started on an action plan if you like.

-PM

[SH_]

Woke_up, I would hope that you take PM up on his offer...
Action is the key to progress and success...
You can read, study and talk about it until the cows come home, but you would still be in the same place...until you take action.

I'm pulling for you

[Woke_Up]

Okay. Fired early and hadn't read everything.

Don't fret about the MBR row. Your D will remember of course. You must STOP all arguing in front of the kids. They learn how to interact from this.

Agreed. Will prioritise this.

Here is my prediction, your sitch follows mine so closely. Your W will eventually leave your house and take your kids (Me), possible vs she may get a shock and stay (see Sandi).

I can't see her leaving the house. She will fight to make me leave. I have however, given myself the headspace to realise that if I do leave (not planning on it, just IF), then I would take myself off all of the bills, and she would need to pick those up. The mortgage would be trickier. But it does mean that the finances wouldn't be so tight as I had feared, and she would get a wake up call on how much things actually cost, including the running of her car.

I do believe your W is abusive. Have you read the book on abuse yet? It may be physical, it may be FOO - frankly who gives a sh!t. It is what it is. My W's is FOO and potentially physical IMHO.

I agree. I haven't read it yet, but will start on Tuesday.

Fact is women who do this do it gradually but escalating quickly from the point they think they have your b@lls and you will never leave. It happens to good guys. I know you are a good guy also you are NOT a pu$$y. You are a good guy. Its her problem. Basically, it is very, very unlikely she will ever change. Sorry - read the book....

Right now, separate all finances. Hand her over to the OM and walk the fcuk away is my view - in your mind. You could actually do it, but like you, I couldn't because my kids were scared. Now, looking back at the point you are in, the thing that damages most is the arguing in front of the kids. If it is not possible to stop them hear M start to shout then exit, you must NEVER react (let them remember only her). Got to bed earlier etc. In time if they talk, they will talk about M's shouting. Don't let them remember yours. If it does not happen ever again, they can't remember it.

Separating the finances will be difficult. Walking away is difficult. I'll start a new post in a minute to explain what just happened and get some feedback.

W will try and goad you into physical abuse. You must not EVER take this bait. I have had this. The good thing about good guys is we don't hit women. The Verbally Abusive Woman preys on this security. It's win, win. She will escalate until the point she hits you or she goads you to do the same. My W got Physical then left. I never did. I couldn't.

Yes, I know.

You must walk at first sight of her picking a fight. Go to bed at 9pm, go for a run, a drive etc.

Did this earlier. came in, made what I thought was an innocuous comment about her being asleep on the sofa, she went off on how she had done everything around the house (she had cleaned up, picked up SS from work etc. while I had taken D out to cinema with her friends). Called me Victor Meldrew and an idiot. I simply said I wasn't going to spoken to like that, and would have a conversation of she wasn't insulting me. She responded that I never spoke to her and should make an effort. I said I would make efforts once she stopped A. She went off a bit more, I went out to put fuel in car.

Another warning, my W used to encourage me to drink (not bottles of whiskey but get a few in with friends). She did this so my guard was not rock solid. I would do what you did, I engaged. I learned quickly.

There are some dark days ahead mate. Sorry, but be prepared. Your armour is STFU. That's it.

She's currently telling me that I am detached, like a psychopath I am trying not to engage her.

Problem is, my W found an account in her name (rest tied down), with a lot of money in it (an ISA I set up for her, again tax efficient), she took that and ran. Okay not ideal, but I can handle that. See the abuse 'for the kids' stopped. For me it goes on. But with the book on abuse and other learning, I have more skills that Pele on acid!!! I am slowly going to close down the manipulation. V is amazing at this!!! She has has a much crazier WS than me and is a total genius on this. I am very much still learning. But she has helped me so much (V - if you are reading this - thank you so much!).

You must learn to control all reactions. Mindfulness apps are great for this right now for you. Try Headspace and Calm there are others. They cost nothing.

I will look for them.

Listen brother. I am steps ahead but have had a very similar journey (they are never the same). Know this, its all about how you conduct you for you and the kids. I will paste a recent message on my post for you to read. To give you hope.

Keep it tight. YOU - do it for your D and SS (he has seen this all his life I bet! - poor lad). You owe it to him too.

I know. He is my son now. I have to be a better man for us all to come out of this in the best possible shape.

Final point. You DID NOT CAUSE THIS!!! You really, really did not. I can not express this strongly enough. Also, you will NEVER cure her. Only she can. She probably won't IMHO. The reason I believe this is that you clearly apologise for your own outbursts. Does she???

She tried to tell me I was responsible for her 'friendship' starting as she calls it.

Going to need to start doing that. Thanks again mate. Just about to post an update.

[Woke_Up]

Update:

OK, I was about to post some suggestions here - including that I actually did move out to the study, as that would make it clear that we a separated and it wouldn't be hidden from view any more. It would have to be owned.

Also, yesterday, there was a lot of cake feeding, and she was affectionate, we actually ML in the morning and the evening. However, in my head it felt like I was saying goodbye.

Today:

Took SS to work at 9am, took D out to movies with her friends and 1 of the dads. Got back to find W seemingly asleep on sofa. D woke her up, and when I was saying something I said you were asleep. She denied it, then said how she had cleaned everything, taken dog out, picked up S from work. I was an Idiot, and Victor Meldrew (typical grumpy old man from British sit-com)

I said I wouldn't be called names, and if she wanted to talk we could do it without insults, but I wouldn't talk otherwise. She said I never talked anyway. I said I would work on it, but couldn't while she was in A. I'm not sure if I should be saying things like this. Anyway, I went out and put fuel in the car to prevent it escalating.

WW just came down and said she was going to move out of MBR, was ordering a new bed with an orthopedic mattress , so now had no money left (I paid her wages into her account yesterday, so now no money for food for January unless I find more funds, which she knows I will have to).

Basically said I had treated her like a PoS for the last 6 years, said I was trying to dictate and control, and that she wasn't going to put up with me treating her like cr@p and telling her that she had to stop A before I would work on anything.

She said she wouldn't sleep next to a (insert c-bomb here) and that she would be the bigger man and move room. She says she is switching bathrooms - the ensuite will now be the boys (it was previously the girls) and the boys would have to use the ensuite, as she wouldn't mop up pee after us and it was disgusting.

So she says she is giving up 'her room' and 'her bathroom'. She couldn't stay in there with me as it would end up in a violent confrontation and she would need to put locks on and that was no way to live.

I tried to remain detached and not engage, give validation where I could, but it is difficult.

She was accusing me of trying to dictate things and control everything.

She also made comment about the study becoming my bedroom - as in that wouldn't be best if we decided to sell the house. Then she said it may not suit her sell the house, it may not be best for her and her children, if we separate. I said currently we would have to live in the same house as it was not financially viable to have separate houses.

She said there would need to be rules in the house - I said we could agree ground rules. basically she said she was free to do what she wanted and to be in contact with whoever she wants. I said I know. I told her I love her, but I am letting her go. I can't control her and don't want to control her.

Then she said I always acted like I was doing her a favour if I did something with D. I apologised if it seemed that way. She said there I went again, being detached, not owning the action or acknowledging that was what I did. I repeated I was sorry and never meant to act as if I was doing her a favour.

Anyway, it ended with her saying that we could move the new double bed she bought a few weeks ago, but which now isn't good enough, into the shed, and move some other furniture around.

Anyway, that is where we are today.

Thoughts anyone? Go along with this? She is still trying to dictate around things like bathrooms. (The power shower is in the bathroom she will now take over, the bath/hand shower is in the ensuite. An annoyance but easily liveable with.

Still haven't seen L, will get a chance once we are into the new year.

There was a lot of projection, history re-writing, blame shifting - all the stuff you have warned me about, on display. She is still trying to call the shots.

Any ideas on finances? I can easily set up a new company, so I don't pay her wages or dividends, but then how do I go about providing her with some financial control - otherwise she would have nothing.

All bills come out of my account. We don't have joint accounts, fortunately. Mortgage is in joint names, and I think 1 utility bill and 1 bank loan. All others in my name.

Just after a sounding board at the moment. Thanks, fellow DB'ers.

[Woke_Up]

Oh, another thing - she says my detached comments/validation sound patronising, and she recognises that I am detached, 'the way a Pyschopath detaches'

Any self help out there on validation that I can use. I think I need a particularly British version, sometimes American phraseology doesn't translate. We tend to be much more cynical across the pond, I fear.

[Woke_Up]

I don't want to muddy up the waters of advice you are receiving, but I can get you started on an action plan if you like.

-PM

PatientMan - That would be very much appreciated, thanks - I will take any help I can at this stage. This seems to be the key thing to learn, with traditional DB'ing, with Tough Love as per Sandi, with everything.

And I am nowhere near getting it yet.

[Woke_Up]

Woke_up, I would hope that you take PM up on his offer...
Action is the key to progress and success...
You can read, study and talk about it until the cows come home, but you would still be in the same place...until you take action.

I'm pulling for you

Thanks SH. I have read your words of wisdom on Surfer's threads, and take hope and inspiration from you also. You are right - action defines what is, the rest is just what might be.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

She tried to tell me I was responsible for her 'friendship' starting as she calls it.

I had exactly this. Their patter is all the same. You must first realise this - its utter horsesh!t and gaslighting. Ignore it all - you have to detach to do this.

Surfer.

[sandi2]

she says my detached comments/validation sound patronising,

I think that may be true with many newcomer men, b/c if validation does not come naturally for him, it can sound phoney to the ears of a WW. Some men repeat the same one or two lines, and IMHO, it goes against what they intended. Understand that I am not against validation.

said I was trying to dictate and control, and that she wasn't going to put up with me treating her like cr@p and telling her that she had to stop A before I would work on anything.

^^^^^^^That shows just how her thinking is so illogical.

IMHO, I don't think you need to tell her you have let her go. Just carry through with the actions.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

WW just came down and said she was going to move out of MBR, was ordering a new bed with an orthopedic mattress , so now had no money left (I paid her wages into her account yesterday, so now no money for food for January unless I find more funds, which she knows I will have to).

My W did this. Then complained about bad back, bed etc. She basically wanted to buy new furiture to take with her. She just bought it when she moved. Your W is working out a way to leave IMHO. Don't make it easy but Rule No.1 (forever whilst you live together). NO ENGAGING IF SHE IS ESCALATING/RAGING/DISRESPECTING!!! Rule 2. Never fall foul on Rule No. 1.

Do nothing with money until you have spoken to a L. If it looks controlling it will go against you. You can advise that you want her shareholding to change to the same salary but not a controlling shareholder - which is probably what it is. Ultimately, Post D, you could wind it up with a different co (almost identical name etc) and have a clean sheet but for now. Speak to L first.

In terms of rules around the house. I would be tempted to say, you can restrict yourself to whatever bathroom etc, but this is my house and I will treat it as such. I respect you and I expect you to respect me if you wish to live here.

Observation on some quotes:

Basically said I had treated her like a PoS for the last 6 years, said I was trying to dictate and control, and that she wasn't going to put up with me treating her like cr@p and telling her that she had to stop A before I would work on anything.

This is gaslighting. Ignore it all apart from the bit in bold. It might have been a good idea to say okay, what do you want me to work on. You could have done a quid pro quo and see if she worked on any of hers. Sadly however, I expect she is just trying to manipulate a control position. e.g. you ask her to do something (not contact OM) she is saying you don't control me, you can do something for me first (IDK what). She would see you doing this and then feel One Up (you being One Down). Basically, this is all about control.

She said she wouldn't sleep next to a (insert c-bomb here) and that she would be the bigger man and move room. She says she is switching bathrooms - the ensuite will now be the boys (it was previously the girls) and the boys would have to use the ensuite, as she wouldn't mop up pee after us and it was disgusting.

She wants to try and control again. "I" will move (I will do it not you dictating), "I" will be a man ("You are not"). It's all control and undermining. I am sure you see this. Does she expect you to think that this is normal. Blokes and kids miss the toilet. It's a fact. Yes, be careful, but it happens. Do all M's sleep in a separate room with a separate bathroom for this reason. Yes of course they do - my ar5e. Control.

So she says she is giving up 'her room' and 'her bathroom'. She couldn't stay in there with me as it would end up in a violent confrontation and she would need to put locks on and that was no way to live.

"She is" - statements of control. You must read the Verbally Abusive Relationship. You will need lots of ink in your pen. Forget what others say about reading and doing etc. You read this book and now. You need to be able to define what is happening to you and really understand it before you can react. I suggest your objectives are:

1 - No confrontations - you are getting the hang of it; practice makes perfect but just walk away/put the phone down

2 - Read the book!!!

3 - Change all bank account etc passwords, this is good practice in any event and you can argue this is the reason for it in any event.

4 - See a L

5 - Keep doing what helps keep your 'head'. She is going to try and push you off course and you will not believe the tricks she will pull. DO NOT forget Rule No 1.

The underlined part, above, is concerning. I believe she may either become violent or try to make you sufficiently angry to be violent. Either way its an intimidating position. Keep your cool.

You will see from the book that WW's rarely change and mostly they escalate their behaviour until violence occurs (my W left soon after she could not control herself and had a violent outburst). You may need to start recording her when spewing etc. Read the book, it will give you guidance.

She was accusing me of trying to dictate things and control everything.

This is projection. She has a controlling nature. She knows and does not like it. When she feel the control and anger she is not comfortable and takes it out on you - projects it. I kind of think of Harry Potter having a bit of Voldermort in him. The person with the projected part in them is the enemy as the Abuser hates that horrible part of them that they project into the victim. You are the Victim not the Abuser - but she hates the way she feels, her actions and the way she is treating you. But she can't control it. There is possibly anger addiction going on too.

I tried to remain detached and not engage, give validation where I could, but it is difficult.

"There is no try, only do" - Yoda....seriously. Try all you want but if you do not abide by Rule 1, it could end up really nasty - even prison for you if she gets her way. I think if you were to be goaded into violence (and she will really try this) it would be her meal ticket. You must not ever, confront her.

told her I love her, but I am letting her go. I can't control her and don't want to control her.

Good, but drop the I love you statement. Also, now show her you are letting go (not of her but of the emotional attachment), be aloof, go out and have fun, just GAL.

She said there would need to be rules in the house

. I would say happy to listen to her about rules at some point but rules are mutually agreeable, if not, then don't expect others to follow them. She is trying to dictate and control again. Don't let her. Be calm, if needs be, let her say her bit. Go calm down and perhaps drop in your statement a couple of days down the line when she is calm.

I have stopped saying this:

I repeated I was sorry

Used to do it all the time. It makes you look weak IMHO. Perhaps if you do its better to say I am sorry you saw it that way. Don't take any blame if you have done no wrong!

She also made comment about the study becoming my bedroom - as in that wouldn't be best if we decided to sell the house. Then she said it may not suit her sell the house, it may not be best for her and her children, if we separate. I said currently we would have to live in the same house as it was not financially viable to have separate houses.

This comment is testing the water, lining you up to say she expects to keep the house. You do not leave the house - even if it gets nasty. You could, but I don't think you should after this. She will spew as this is her goal. She will say at some point "Either you go or we go (My W added or we go to stay at MILs), which is it?". I just calmly said something like, "It sounds like you have at least 2 options then if you don't want to stay. This is your path, it's not my place to make decisions that would drastically change your life and the kids for the worse. I then walked off." She nearly set on fire I recall.

Look. Times are hard mate but things will improve in the New Year (but it may get a fair bit worse first). I expect your W may make a play for the house, may move out etc. Living in separate rooms for 2 years can count as separation also so it might be a longer slog! Separation sufficient to D that is. I did the whole 2 years and more. She sent me a D letter which said we were separate. I contested her letter by saying, that's untrue, we eat dinner together every night. She may not be aware of this so do things together still. Cook dinner every night if she does not, if she does, eat it together. At some point she might stop all eating together, washing etc i.e. anything for you to be totally separate. My W did this. Thing is OM is not going to hang around for 2 years is he!!!

When I found out about OM I put a tracker in the car - had a spare iphone so did find my iphone. Not saying you should do this, but I would consider it. Why, because if you catch her in the 'act' with OM you can push for a D. I couldn't prove anything, only she went to the town where he lived (whilst me, the kids and MIL and FIL were having a family time meal out!!!). I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

I expect your W may not have ML with OM but she will work towards it IMHO. Women offer sex to get love. She may be doing this with words or even doing fairly graphic things online with him now. Either way, none of this matters as she has an OM (you know this) and she is currently involved with him. It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.

Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.

Surfer.

[AndrewP]

I repeated I was sorry

Used to do it all the time. It makes you look weak IMHO. Perhaps if you do its better to say I am sorry you saw it that way. Don't take any blame if you have done no wrong!

Just my 2 cents here. Work hard on never using the word Sorry. It establishes guilt and control. If you accidentally drive over her cat, then say "Sorry" but beyond that unless you are actually "Sorry" don't say it.

I'm Canadian and it's part of our DNA to say "sorry" so I know how hard it is to avoid especially when you are being confronted and talked down to.

I dare you to say "Svcks to be you" instead

[PatientMan]

I don't want to muddy up the waters of advice you are receiving, but I can get you started on an action plan if you like.

-PM

PatientMan - That would be very much appreciated, thanks - I will take any help I can at this stage. This seems to be the key thing to learn, with traditional DB'ing, with Tough Love as per Sandi, with everything.

And I am nowhere near getting it yet.

There are two things to start off with - both are easy to type and difficult to master:

1) Read Sandi's 37 rules EVERY DAY, multiple times if you need to (whatever it takes to be living them out of habit).
2) Do not react to her emotionally AT ALL. You are cool as a cucumber, always.

Let me know how you progress with this and we will move on from there. If you have any questions feel free to ask for the reasoning, but I do find that the more "why" you know, the more ammunition you give your mind to justify behavior that doesn't coalesce with your goals.

-PM

[Woke_Up]

Thanks PatientMan

I will start with that.

[PatientMan]

In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.

Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.

-PM

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up
Don't make it easy but Rule No.1 (forever whilst you live together). NO ENGAGING IF SHE IS ESCALATING/RAGING/DISRESPECTING!!! Rule 2. Never fall foul on Rule No. 1.

Gotcha. Difficult. Last night she decided she was going to get drunk. Then asked me to come and have a glass of wine. I had 1, nursed very slowly. The conversation started with her saying "I miss you, BUT you have to stop being Victor Meldrew" - you can imagine the rest, more history re-writing, gaslighting. I managed not to engage, tried to validate without it degenerating into arguments or me having to leave. Didn't say sorry once. At one point I said this conversation is going nowhere and is getting pointless - it was heading towards personality deconstruction - her favourite technique. I did use Windsor Davies in my head, thanks for that

Do nothing with money until you have spoken to a L. If it looks controlling it will go against you.

Makes sense, and I did read about appearing too controlling by cutting off all finances.

In terms of rules around the house. I would be tempted to say, you can restrict yourself to whatever bathroom etc, but this is my house and I will treat it as such. I respect you and I expect you to respect me if you wish to live here.

That's a good way of dealing with it. I think what you say about taking time to think on what she says and then come back to it would also work, as thinking on feet when trying to keep emotions out of it is still difficult for me at this stage.

Observation on some quotes:

Basically, this is all about control.

Yeah, I get that - and it is one of the fundamental issues with our R, irrespective of where we are at now with the EA.

You read this book and now. You need to be able to define what is happening to you and really understand it before you can react. I suggest your objectives are:

1 - No confrontations - you are getting the hang of it; practice makes perfect but just walk away/put the phone down

2 - Read the book!!!

3 - Change all bank account etc passwords, this is good practice in any event and you can argue this is the reason for it in any event.

4 - See a L

5 - Keep doing what helps keep your 'head'. She is going to try and push you off course and you will not believe the tricks she will pull. DO NOT forget Rule No 1.

Good plan, thanks for the pointers. Banks are OK, as separate accounts anyway and business account is not accessible by her.

The underlined part, above, is concerning. I believe she may either become violent or try to make you sufficiently angry to be violent.

Yeah, that's my worry.

You will see from the book that WW's rarely change and mostly they escalate their behaviour until violence occurs (my W left soon after she could not control herself and had a violent outburst). You may need to start recording her when spewing etc. Read the book, it will give you guidance.

She was accusing me of trying to dictate things and control everything.

This is projection... There is possibly anger addiction going on too.

I haven't read on this yet, but from what you have said on this and other threads, I believe you are right. Thinking back, there are so many occasions where an argument has come out of nowhere, escalated into a blazing row, usually ending with her in the 'one up' position, or a draw at best, almost never with me in the one up position. Then next day, calm, affection, back to normal. Until the cycle repeats.

I tried to remain detached and not engage, give validation where I could, but it is difficult.

"There is no try, only do" - Yoda....seriously. Try all you want but if you do not abide by Rule 1, it could end up really nasty - even prison for you if she gets her way. I think if you were to be goaded into violence (and she will really try this) it would be her meal ticket. You must not ever, confront her.

told her I love her, but I am letting her go. I can't control her and don't want to control her.

Good, but drop the I love you statement. Also, now show her you are letting go (not of her but of the emotional attachment), be aloof, go out and have fun, just GAL.

Got it. I have stopped proactively saying it. She sometimes still tells me. Like this morning, she was being affectionate again, and asked me if I still loved her or words to that effect.

I have stopped saying this:

I repeated I was sorry

I'm noticed this and am working on it. Didn't quite have the nerve to use AndrewP's suggestion last night, but came close

This comment is testing the water, lining you up to say she expects to keep the house. You do not leave the house - even if it gets nasty.

Yes, I understand that. I've made it clear that it isn't financially viable for me to move out and still pay for everything, so in house separation is only possibility at the moment.

Look. Times are hard mate but things will improve in the New Year (but it may get a fair bit worse first). I expect your W may make a play for the house, may move out etc. Living in separate rooms for 2 years can count as separation also so it might be a longer slog! Separation sufficient to D that is.

This is where my sitch differs, as we are engaged but never got round to getting married. Both of us have been married before and didn't see the need to rush it. So there is no D. Only separation and then splitting of finances etc. Now, I know that OM is not around, as he lives in the States. However, I also know that he has got himself a passport, and she has been looking at flights, so I suspect at some point they will arrange to meet. I have made it clear to W that she will not have my permission to take D out of the country. If she has done her research she will know that she needs this, as I have parental responsibility. I also said I wouldn't let OM near my daughter, and that was why I had saved some of his messages to her where he was threatening to 'give me an ass whopping' I'm not particularly worried on this front, and TBH it was mainly bravado on my part, as I don't know whether i could keep him away, but it did get her worried that her little plans may not be plain sailing.

Thing is OM is not going to hang around for 2 years is he!!!

As there is no D, 2 years doesn't come into it - however they have now been in contact for 8 months, so I guess he is waiting for something. I'm beyond worrying about that issue now, as if he is stupid enough to believe the lies she is spinning him then I guess it will all come out in the end.

When I found out about OM I put a tracker in the car - had a spare iphone so did find my iphone. Not saying you should do this, but I would consider it. Why, because if you catch her in the 'act' with OM you can push for a D.

Again, not going to be an issue, although I did the whole paranoid spy thing, and was amazed by what hacking skills I developed in a very short space of time. Kali Linux and Youtube tutorials are a potent combination.

I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

I expect your W may not have ML with OM but she will work towards it IMHO. Women offer sex to get love.

I agree this may be on the cards once one of them decides to make the trip.

She may be doing this with words or even doing fairly graphic things online with him now.

Yeah, that has been done, discovered that fairly early on.

Either way, none of this matters as she has an OM (you know this) and she is currently involved with him. It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.

This I know. The pain I felt at the discovery and ongoing was unimaginable. Only since discovering this forum, and some other similar self help methods, in the last 2 or 3 weeks, have I actually had any semblance of rationality. She continues to deny this. Likes to deny it is an affair, call it a friendship, buts little rabbit ears "inverted commas" around the word affair when she says it, and often tells me it could be worse, she could be in a PA. However I have told her that if it was a PA, I would have separated. I am clear on that as a boundary. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't work for a reconciliation at some point in the future, just that I wouldn't be subject to that in my own home.

Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.

Wise words. Thank you. One day, I will buy you a beer, which will in no way repay the gratitude I feel, but hell, we're men, and it's beer.

Now, time to find some space to read the book.

[Woke_Up]

[quote=Surfer]

I repeated I was sorry

I dare you to say "Svcks to be you" instead

Thanks bud... I nearly did last night, but chickened out.. she was drunk, wouldn't have been pretty

[SH_]

In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.

Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.

-PM

I like it.
Good stuff here PM.

[Woke_Up]

In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.

PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach. I am thinking about numbers:

#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?

#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.

#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?

Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.

This is solid gold. Thank you.

[sandi2]

I'm not Patient Man, but I would like to respond. First, let me make clear that the 37 rules are not to be applied when reconciling the MR. They were intended for confused LBS newcomers to have some quick tips in do's and don'ts when they first arrived on the forum. They are not designed to use during reconciliation/healing of the MR. I have yet to see a brand new, first time newcomerarrive here during reconciliation period. Instead, they arrive in crisis. But just in case there are any reading who are in the R stages of their M, I wanted this clarified....as I have tried to do in the past.

#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?

Rule #5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject

If you'll notice, some rules are aimed in showing the LBS how to not pursue. #5 is such a rule. Many a desperate newcomer LBS will talk about future plans, in an attempt to positively impress the feelings the other S has about ending their M. If the WS initiates the conversation, then treat it as any other relationship temperature testing from your WS.

#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.

Rule #15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.


This one seems to be misunderstood by several posters in past times. I tried expounding on this one the most, and maybe that is where I made it more confusing, IDK. This is another rule to show the LBS how to not pursue. Some LBS's are really big talkers, and many talkers will start and extend conversations, b/c they use it to pursue the OS. Just like a phone call where the LBS often tries to find anything to keep the call going.....it is a form of pursuit. If the OS initiates the conversation, be polite and listen, without offering opinions. Use this time to validate, if OS is not talking about AP or disrespectfully spewing at the LBS. If no jabboring from the LBS is new and strange to the OS....they might ask, "What is wrong with you? Are you mad? Are you pouting?" If they ask what's wrong, then the LBS should quietly say he is just listening...or whatever answer seems more appropriate without causing argument.

#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.

Great!

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?

Rule # 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying

IMHO, this particular rule is for those LBS'S who want to "explain" and "defend" their own actions, reasoning, intentions, etc. In their attempt to explain, they often will interupt, raise their voice to be heard over the OS, throw up their hands in frustration and exhibit other emotions...or ignore them while the OS is trying to speak. This rule is N/A for disrespectful speech/verbal abuse/ or spew slinging. When disrespectful speech or mannerisms enters into what the OS is saying, it is time to give them space, and not engage by further talk or listening.


I hope this helps.

[PatientMan]

PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach.

Based on what I have read, you seem to be more in a newcomer mode...trying to get a hold of your situation and control of yourself, not so much a person who is in the position to reconcile his M. I understand that *you* may be ready for reconciliation, but it doesn't mean she is.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding your sitch.

I am thinking about numbers:

#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?

#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.

#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?

Sandi hit on these by clarifying the intent behind each "rule".

-PM

[Woke_Up]

Rule #5...
If the WS initiates the conversation, then treat it as any other relationship temperature testing from your WS.

OK, but with temp testing, which seems to be happening a lot at the moment, how do I respond without appearing cold? For instance, Fri there was lots of Spew, Saturday a little bit of drunken spewing, Sunday morning, WW wants to ML & asks 'Don't I love her?'. Then yesterday she is talking about how house prices have increased , but she thinks there will be an economic crash soon, so maybe we should sell the house and then bide our time until house prices drop before buying again.

Rule #15...

If no jabboring from the LBS is new and strange to the OS....they might ask, "What is wrong with you? Are you mad? Are you pouting?" If they ask what's wrong, then the LBS should quietly say he is just listening...or whatever answer seems more appropriate without causing argument.

No jabboring is the norm for me. Doing a 180 would be starting more conversations, and being proactive in conversations, as well as the active & intent listening. Just wondering how this fits with the WW sitch when she won't end the EA. Do I try & 180 (as it would make me a better man anyway, not just a better partner/H) to be more proficient at starting conversations. When she was mini-spewing on NYE, it came across that she wanted me to make changes - I was saying I know I have to make changes and will work on them when she commits to working on our R, i.e. - ends the EA. She took it as I never make conversations and won't in future.

Rule # 25...

IMHO, this particular rule is for those LBS'S who want to "explain" and "defend" their own actions, reasoning, intentions, etc. In their attempt to explain, they often will interupt, raise their voice to be heard over the OS, throw up their hands in frustration and exhibit other emotions...or ignore them while the OS is trying to speak. This rule is N/A for disrespectful speech/verbal abuse/ or spew slinging. When disrespectful speech or mannerisms enters into what the OS is saying, it is time to give them space, and not engage by further talk or listening.

Mostly it is disrespectful speech at the moment. Then again, that has been true prior to current sitch. When not disrespectful I am working on listening attentively.

I hope this helps.

Always. Thanks, Sandi.


[/quote]

[Woke_Up]

PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach.

Based on what I have read, you seem to be more in a newcomer mode...trying to get a hold of your situation and control of yourself, not so much a person who is in the position to reconcile his M. I understand that *you* may be ready for reconciliation, but it doesn't mean she is.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding your sitch.

PatientMan - You nailed it. I am in newcomer mode, definitely not in a position to think about reconciling, as WW refuses to end EA & go NC.

My mission currently (on top of following your action plan) is to get on top of boundaries. These have been lacking throughout our R, and putting them in place now, well let's just say I am finding it exceptionally difficult.

Thank you.

[MrBond]

Did you actually finish reading DR?

[Woke_Up]

Actually, I didn't finish DR. I read the first 7 chapters then jumped to 10 on infidelity but haven't gone back to finish. I have so many books to read at the minute I have been jumping around. I'll get back on it.

[MrBond]

What did you actually do that was described in the DR book? It doesn't sound like you did anything. The list known as "sandi's rules" are essentially from the book. If you didn't do any of the changes and actions detailed in DR, that's probably why nothing has changed.

[Woke_Up]

What did you actually do that was described in the DR book? It doesn't sound like you did anything. The list known as "sandi's rules" are essentially from the book. If you didn't do any of the changes and actions detailed in DR, that's probably why nothing has changed.

Well - what have I been doing (to a greater or lesser extent)?:
1. Pulling back. No phone calls or texts.
2. GAL - working on my online training course and joined a Krav maga class, had first session on Tuesday.
3. Snooping - this has been my poison. Haven't touched her phone in over a week.
4. Talking about EA/OM - have not brought this up at all recently. However, I have not been enforcing any boundaries so have put myself into enabling a cake eating limbo from what I see.
5. Listening attentively, focusing on what she is saying.
6. Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.
7. Avoiding engaging in arguments/spewing/escalation of conflicts (this is difficult).
8.Proactively starting conversations (this is a 180 for me) - I have however backed off on this as it doesn't seem to fit with a tough love approach.

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I put initial focus on getting back in the MBR, even though the initial reason I wasn't in there had nothing to do with the EA. I think with hindsight this was a mistake. WW has ordered yet another bed (see earlier post) and there is a strong possibility she will move out of MBR at some point. I have no strong feelings either way. It would actually be easier for me to emotionally detach if I am not sleeping next to her, it is way too easy to reach out/cuddle in the night and is also too easy if ML is discussed.

This morning, she was disturbed when I got up at 5AM for work (I was as quiet as I could be, I suspect she was sleeping lightly by that point). I got a load of spew via text message (6 or 7 messages). I didn't respond to any. Then after I was at work she sent a reasonable text message, with kisses at the end. I replied to that one.

My biggest concern/area of self doubt is whether I should be 180ing (which I am wanting to do, as it is a personal self improvement as I see it) or whether I should be growing a pair and working out ways of applying tough love in this sitch.

[Woke_Up]

I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

I am going through the VAR book, and I must admit, it makes me feel a bit depressed/sad about the sitch - as if she never changes then I will need to make a conscious choice to be in that sort of R or to get out. I am also trying not to focus on just her but on the elements that I may display of verbal abuse/control. It is interesting in that it talks about reality 1 & reality 2 - but I wonder if in cases where the woman is the abuser, whether actually both live in reality 1 a lot of the time. While I see alot of myself in the 'partner' role described on the book, I am also conscious that I have previously identified her behaviour as emotional or verbal abuse.

She does not see a problem with her behaviour, and in fact when I probably foolishly) described the drama triangle to her before Christmas, she said "isn't that just normal though"

It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.

I've come back to this comment. I haven't mentioned it for a while, other than NYE saying I wouldn't work on things while it was ongoing. I seem to have put myself in cake feeding limbo and need to work my way out again.

Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.

This is what makes me sad. I love he dearly. I know she suffered horribly in her childhood (emotionally, with some physically thrown in). I am not sure she will ever recognise this enough to want to take steps to heal herself, and in doing so enable us to have a mutually healthy R.

Anyway, I hope your sitch is going OK at the moment. Take care mate.

[MrBond]

Ok, but you missed the most important thing. Your goals.

Sounds like you made it to what NOT to do but didn't read the part about how you create goals to start turning things around. Go back and read the book in its entirety. What are your measurable goals and actions?

[sandi2]

OK, but with temp testing, which seems to be happening a lot at the moment, how do I respond without appearing cold?

Why are you so worried you will appear cold to the woman who is abusing or disrespecting you?

For instance, Fri there was lots of Spew, Saturday a little bit of drunken spewing, Sunday morning, WW wants to ML & asks 'Don't I love her?'.

I would have used a stern but calm voice and said something like, "It's never been a question about my love. It appears, however, there's a question about your love". Then I would have promptly told her thanks, but no thanks for the offer of sex.....and I would have walked out of the room much like Rhett Butler walked away from Scarlett. And.....I would not have cared if she thought I was cold or hot. Call it a truth dart, or whatever. I just think there is a time & place you have to show respect for yourself, when the other person is using you. But that's just me, and what's more important here is how did YOU respond?

Doing a 180 would be starting more conversations, and being proactive in conversations, as well as the active & intent listening. Just wondering how this fits with the WW sitch when she won't end the EA. Do I try & 180 (as it would make me a better man anyway, not just a better partner/H) to be more proficient at starting conversations.

Just for the record.....you don't have to 180 everything! IMHO, the LBS's show their pursuing side when they use the 180 technique as their excuse to do what their "feelings" are wanting. Practice learning how to be more proficient on other people, but not your W.

When she was mini-spewing on NYE, it came across that she wanted me to make changes - I was saying I know I have to make changes and will work on them when she commits to working on our R, i.e. - ends the EA. She took it as I never make conversations and won't in future.

So? You have told her you will not start working on things as long as she continues her A. But now you want to call it self improvement. I think you should practice with others, and when she stops her affair (if she doesn't start another one), you will be polished and ready to indulge a hearty conversation with her.

Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.

No ILY's is no ILY's. It doesn't matter who says it first. Maybe it would be easier if you just told us how things have changed for her in the MR. Has she had to lose anything since her A started?

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I don't think you can apply #2 as long as you are telling her you love her and having sex when she initiates. Just b/c she wants sex does not mean she is in love with you, nor does it mean it's some sign of progress being made.....if she's still conducting an A. You know that, right? My sex drive jumped over the moon when I was having an EA. I just didn't have any desire for my H. Some women will have sex with their H, while fantasizing about the OM. Maybe you have some other woman in your head while having sex, IDK, I'm just saying that her tempt checking you is about her checking to see if she still has control over you, and how attached you are to her. Yes, it her selfishness, but also, WW's are big manipulators. Having sex with her keeps you confused and basically scared to apply any sort of boundary, but this is just my opinion about a WW's stitch. I believe the common thread that runs through most problems involving a wayward in the MR, is their high level of disrespect, deep resentment, and rebellion toward the the H. There can be other factors added....but those three seem to form the foundation. Therefore, the H needs to approach the stitch by using those three as units of measurement. As long as she is displaying a hint of disrespect, resentment, or rebellion in some form....there will be no progression in their MR. It may be covered up for a while, but eventually, he will experience all of this again if it is not previously tackled. So......you can be her BFF, or have sex every night, or stand on your toes trying to do whatever she wants you to do, but there will be no change in her heart until those 3 (at least) areas have started showing evidence of change. At the very least, she needs to recognize it and be willing to do what is necessary to work through it to save the MR. It usually takes professional help to guide the couple back to a truly healthy place. Of course, she will need to end any and all inappropriate contacts.

My biggest concern/area of self doubt is whether I should be 180ing (which I am wanting to do, as it is a personal self improvement as I see it) or whether I should be growing a pair and working out ways of applying tough love in this sitch.

What, beside the conversations, are you wanting to 180? There are a lot of things you could 180 that have nothing to do with her....and could be for personal growth. No offense, but I think you are cherry picking just a little bit....and calling it personal growth.

[Surfer]

Matey,

It is interesting in that it talks about reality 1 & reality 2 - but I wonder if in cases where the woman is the abuser, whether actually both live in reality 1 a lot of the time. W

I thought exactly the same. We are both stubborn people and determined. However, there is a difference. You see the problem and therefore will act via not doing it again (hopefully) or at least trying not to and also, most importantly providing a genuine apology (which, most likely is never really fully accepted). On the other hand she does not recognise her poor behaviour (she sees it as normal due to FOO stuff) and therefore why would she apologise - that's just normal isn't it? [No!]. Finally, if she did apologise and really try - would you accept her apology? If the answer is yes, my case is closed, you are not an abuser. You might say things that are abusive to sensitive skin - you do this, think I am etc; this is normal when vexed - but do you really go out to abuse?? Are you always right really?

Food for thought.

Yes, it is sad, do you continue to be abused? If you let her she will continue to. Alternatively you get some boundaries and manage it the best you can. But, as the book says, it rarely gets better with a female abuser (if ever). Sorry you are going through this but you are, so am I, so best face up to it and how to deal with it. Time to man up but in a different way pal - all human thinking, no chimping out (see the chimp paradox - I recommend you read this too).

I am just starting to read a book on boundaries. I will give you some feedback when done.

Final word. Do not fear things. This is a bump in the road in your life. Looking back, it will all be fine, you just need to go through it. Do what helps you focus rather than fear.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Final point. You are not alone! You can do this....

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Why are you so worried you will appear cold to the woman who is abusing or disrespecting you?

Good point. I had thought it was part of the technique to detach without being cold, but

Call it a truth dart, or whatever. I just think there is a time & place you have to show respect for yourself, when the other person is using you. But that's just me, and what's more important here is how did YOU respond?

As you may have guessed. I had sex with her. And a couple of night ago I initiated. I know it's not the right thing to do, I can't sex her into dropping the A, and psychologically thinking that I am one up on the EAP if she is still having sex with me, isn't healthy either.

Just for the record.....you don't have to 180 everything! IMHO, the LBS's show their pursuing side when they use the 180 technique as their excuse to do what their "feelings" are wanting. Practice learning how to be more proficient on other people, but not your W.

OK, I saw someone else say that also, recently. I will work my conversation skills on others. Also, other 180 actions.

Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.

No ILY's is no ILY's. It doesn't matter who says it first.

Right. I was not clear on that. DR and the 37 rules just said don't tell her ILY and nothing about how to respond. So if when says it, would you advise saying nothing, or making a comment regarding her A being at odds with that statement. She has also been saying it in text messages quite a bit recently.

Maybe it would be easier if you just told us how things have changed for her in the MR. Has she had to lose anything since her A started?

She now has to put up with me in the MBR. For now. That's about it. If anything, since getting my head together a bit more and stopping snooping, she has had it easier, as I am not blowing up with anger or bitterness.

No, she has not had to lose anything. There is nothing I can make her lose (materially) without it appearing punitive or controlling (as discussed previously - internet access, money, etc). She will lose the MBR. She has ordered another new bed - 3rd within 3 months - one ended up going to SS16, other she never used, will now be stored as 'not good enough' and now a third for her 'bad back'. This arrives on Tuesday. She will move room then. She has persuaded herself it is all to do with her need for sleep and me being a disturbance rather than anything to do with A.

What can she lose, non materially? My affection, my doing things for her still. This always seems a strange one, as there is still quid pro quo going on - she makes dinner, does laundry etc. Then again, you could say that is picking up her role as a SAHM. Anyway, the pushback will be that she doesn't do those things for me, and that is something that I can easily live with - I am more than capable of feeding myself and my family and of doing the laundry.

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I don't think you can apply #2 as long as you are telling her you love her and having sex when she initiates....

In my mind, I know this. I have just been unwilling to take the steps to be tough, hoping I guess, that trying to make improvements to myself will eventually, maybe, make her realise that it would be madness to continue to pursue the OM - even though I know from people her and from DR that that should be a side effect, if lucky, not an actual aim of my improvements.

So......you can be her BFF, or have sex every night, or stand on your toes trying to do whatever she wants you to do, but there will be no change in her heart until those 3 (at least) areas have started showing evidence of change. At the very least, she needs to recognize it and be willing to do what is necessary to work through it to save the MR. It usually takes professional help to guide the couple back to a truly healthy place. Of course, she will need to end any and all inappropriate contacts.

Well all 3 elements are still apparent, and she shows no sign of ending contact. I have been wallowing again. Wallowing in pity for me, pity for her. Trying to improve myself, but without the application of any boundaries other than picking her up on it when she is disrespectful or about to start spewing. And not overly successfully even then.

No offense, but I think you are cherry picking just a little bit....and calling it personal growth.

None taken. You are right. Maybe not so much cherry picking as stopping at the first major area I come to (as I know it was a problem in the MR] and fixating on that. I will think harder and make a list of of areas to work on that are not related to WW.

[Woke_Up]

Ok. So this day is turning into a doozy. This morning we was affectionate etc, wanted to cuddle me.

Later she wants me and SS to move bed out of spare room to make way for new bed. I refuse to have anything to do with it.

WW and as manhandle bed base downstairs (it's in 2 pieces, not that heavy). WW loses rag and throws pieces outside and says they can be chopped up. Then she proceeds to have a go at me for letting a 'potentially pregnant woman' do heavy lifting.

It is highly improbably that she is pregnant, not impossible. I said I wouldn't have anything to do with the her A, and that she was moving out due to A.

Anyway, quite a bit of belittling. Thoughts, should I have helped? I mean it gets her out of MBR? Or should I stick my ground and say no?

Am I picking the wrong battles? I don't even want a battle. I am just sick and tired of letting myself be a doormat. I told her that she just wanted a nice docile affectionate husband while she continued her A.

[MrBond]

Sounds like you made it to what NOT to do but didn't read the part about how you create goals to start turning things around. Go back and read the book in its entirety. What are your measurable goals and actions?

[Woke_Up]

MrBond

I need to find space and time. I will go back as you suggest. I will also read what I write down first time. Today I am spinning.

[Woke_Up]

Today I am full of self doubt, fear, loneliness- I know I need to break out of the status quo, but I am struggling to be positive - I need to rekindle friendships, make new ones. I have let so much slide these past years.

[Gordie]

Today I am full of self doubt, fear, loneliness- I know I need to break out of the status quo, but I am struggling to be positive - I need to rekindle friendships, make new ones. I have let so much slide these past years.

We all have bad days. Do something for yourself today.

[Sotto]

Hi Woke Up, it's good to realise this and take action. Initial faltering steps can pay dividends further down the line.

I'll tell you what helped me - I decided to try at least one new thing each month - something that might become a regular thing for me. This stuff included yoga, volunteering at a bookstore, salsa, Aquafit, ladies social group...

Over a period of time, some of these things stuck - others fell by the wayside - but I built a new life for myself, where my social needs were met and made new friendships along the way.

Start with making a list of three things you would like to do. Ideally, these should get you out and about, interacting with people. Not necessarily in a purely social setting, which I think can be a bit intimidating - but for example yoga puts you among people doing a similar activity and over time, you may build links and so on...

So, let's see your initial list of three things and what initial steps you are going to take to start the first one up in January?

Press the forward motion button - even if forward is just baby steps...

[Woke_Up]

Journaling:

It has been a day of arguments or attempted arguments, since the 'moving the bed' issue. I am apparently a beta male, not a leader, and not willing to protect my family - apparently she 'had' to move it because of the new bed coming, therefore I forced her by not doing it. If I was an alpha she would never have needed to look for another man, etc etc.

She kept going back to me saying it was 'weird' when she tried to lay across me on the sofa yesterday, and that it was if it was weird, why would I ML to her, etc. (She had started this by saying to D that daddy didn't want her there anyway, when she did it) We had a long conversation last night in bed about it, I said it was weird due to her EA, and that I realised I couldn't love her back to me, or sex her back to me. It was a meandering conversation, not sure it resolved anything. It kept spiralling back to me saying I wouldn't wrk on things while A was in progress. That came up today, and WW asked why should she think I would work on anything if she ended A, if I hadn't worked on anything before. I asked her if she thought just I had to work on things or whether she had to work on things to. She didn't really answer, she said she knew she had faults, but didn't say she would actually work on them.

She has decided to have D4's room and D4 will have the spare room. D4 seems OK with this, a bit of excitement and change. She didn't like her room much lately, hence sleeping back in the MBR with us. Mind you she also asked where I would be sleeping when mummy moved room, and if I would sleep in her (D4's) room with her.

Sad to say that a lot of these conversations & arguments today were in front of D4, including being told I was a bad man, and then D4 piping up that I was good. It breaks my heart that we can't have these things in private, without the kids around. She even told me she'd spoken to D4 about moving to the village where we used to live (where D's school is). I said that we should have these discussions with D together.

I think it looks like we are heading for an in house S. She was bent on moving into another room anyway, blaming her lack of sleep. I want her in another room - I wasn't willing to go back in the spare room.

She thinks I should give her the house and not worry about my 'half'. TBH, I'm not worried, I'm just not going to commit to anything until I speak to a L - I have an appointment on Wednesday.

I think if I did that she would struggle, I honestly don't think she appreciates the running costs and the mortgage. She thinks the child maintenance I would provide would just about cover everything - I don't think it would. I also wouldn't be working a contracting away from home to provide for my W & family if this happened. I would get a regular job closer to home so I could see my kids and share custody. The downside is that there would be less money available, for all of us. This is not a punishment - I honestly think it would be better for me & the kids for me to be closer to home.

I am hopeful that my online course in Agile PM will help me get a job closer to home, so I can move from engineering to IT project management. I may even be able to remain contracting through my own business that way. That is my plan.

Anyway, I did some good work outside, got a tree stump out, levelled the ground and started getting gravel down. I didn't see D as much as I would have liked. When I came in to play with her, WW started spewing and making sure I had to do other things as she felt it wasn't fair on her.

Did some stuff for D's room, picked up SS16, want to do some of my course now, get my head together. Think I will go for some telephone coaching.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up

Do not engage with her. You are arguing in front of the kids again. STOP. She is pushing your buttons because you are letting her. You will damage yourself, your R and most importantly the kids. Your D is being forced to defend you as you are not drawing boundaries yourself. Is that fair? Get some boundary statements in place. Something like 'this is nonsense, I can't help you with it, I am. Ot here for this any more' ' then exit.

She is manipulating you, the bed, the affection, the 'non Alpha Male' conversation is total gas lighting and spew. She is defining you. YOU define you, not her! Got it? Boundaries. Develop and enforce them. See above.

My W said I we will have the house and you can have a charge on it. Yes of course dear right away dear, when do you want me to move out again, later today? Okay. Shall I make the bed for OM so it's comfy when he gets here. One statement. Foxtrott Oscar. No. See a L. Then do nothing. It's her journey. Her crazy train.

Finally, get out and enjoy your life. Make sure your job is secure and you are secure. That way your kids are. Stop acting like a doormat and grow some again. Everything you engage with her so takes a piece of you. Don't - get out with friends, go for a walk, run. Let her wonder if you are having an affair - don't of course. But do let her wonder. It will do you good for her to see some mystery in you - I.e where is he, who's he with etc.

Surfer.

[sandi2]

Good point. I had thought it was part of the technique to detach without being cold, but

Here's the way I see it. Don't take the abuse with a smile on your face. Don't reward the abuser. Give no indication that abusive behavior is acceptable.

I would speak in a calm, yet serious tone voice.

Your W is manipulating you like crazy. She abuses you and then says ILY.....or initiates sex.....or wants cuddling. And YOU.....you are so mixed up that you think you are in competition with your W's lover. So every time you have sex with her, you want to ring a bell and say you are ahead in the race to win your W, .....who is also your abuser.

I was not clear on that. DR and the 37 rules just said don't tell her ILY and nothing about how to respond. So if when says it, would you advise saying nothing, or making a comment regarding her A being at odds with that statement. She has also been saying it in text messages quite a bit recently.

Well.....if you are going to have sex, cuddle, and all the hugs/kisses, it seems rather pointless to not respond in like manner. Do you see what I mean? The way you act/respond gives a message to her. Whatever you want that message to be, I think it should be consistent ....don't you?

Decide your goals and how you will accomplish them.
Decide your personal boundaries (protecting yourself), based on your values, standards, etc.

[Woke_Up]

So, let's see your initial list of three things and what initial steps you are going to take to start the first one up in January?

Press the forward motion button - even if forward is just baby steps...

Hi Sotto

Thank you for your support. You know, it's crazy how difficult I'm finding it to think of 3 things.

I guess 1. was starting a self defence course. Although not entirely new, I hadn't done it for a couple of years. Had my first session last week, second one tonight, and then I have a 6 hour session on Saturday, covering knife defence and trauma first aid.

2. Bushcraft - I really want to learn some bushcraft skills, especially now we are out in the countryside. I have been doing quite a bit of reading and online researching, but would like to go away on a weekend to learn some skills with likeminded people.

3. Horse riding - D4 rides, so it would be nice to go along with her and give it a go.

That's 3 for now. I'll keep thinking. Time is my enemy with my current job, so I will think of things that I can involve D & SS with rather than just myself - weekends are precious and they grow up so fast

[Woke_Up]

journaling:

Well after thinking about things, my thoughts, thoughts of others here on the forum, I decided I was being too much of a cuck with this whole situation.

By ignoring the fact that WW was continuing her EA, and still effectively being a dutiful & affectionate husband, I was losing my self confidence, and possibly even more of my WW's respect. Can't read minds so I don't know this. That's just how it felt.

So, rightly or wrongly, I did the following:

Looked at her new phone, which wasn't locked. Wasn't bothered about reading anything, or snooping in particular. Just confirmed she was still carrying on & still within the house to try and regain some of my anger at the situation. Maybe anger isn't the right word. Just some sort of energised emotion, which had been lacking in me,.

Marched down to the utility room where she was sat with her phone and a joint. Told her to go outside if she was doing that.

Told her if I caught her doing it again I would block her phone from the WiFi for 24 hours as I wasn't going to pay for her to continue.

Said she should probably sleep somewhere else tonight (she won't)

Said that I wasn't going to let her continuing to treat me like her husband when she wasn't acting like my wife.

WW said she was just trying to find the right time to end things. My reply was that I don't want to know about the right time,I want to know when it's over, and repeated that she couldn't continue to use me as a dutiful husband while behaving like this.

Anyway, thoughts on this, anyone? My aim was just to regain some sort of passion about the sitch as I have slipped into dutiful H limbo. I am also hoping that this will help me in my aim to apply a more tough love approach and a sturdier boundary.

As many have noted, I am not good with my boundaries.

On another note, I am re-reading DR, will review my objectives, and then share them with this forum for some feedback, see what the veteran DB'ers have to say.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up,

Boundaries. These are to prevent harm to you and your D and SS. It is about what you will and will not accept.

Smoking a joint outside - fine (why she is doing this but hey?). You don't want kids growing up around that.

Affair and WiFi - again fine.

Respect in her attitude or words towards you is most important. If she is abusive or disrespectful. Just say, "stop, I am not hear to listen to nonsense anymore", then walk away.

The rest is simple, talk to her like you would a work colleague, neighbour etc. Someone you have no emotional ties to. Act as if where you are not detached fully. But work on detaching. The way to avoid this is to fill your time with other things. It will stop your mind future forecasting which is the seedbed of anxiety and stress. The more you do that is healthy for you (exercise, talking particular people etc) the better. You are getting stronger all the time.

I hope this helps.

Surfer.

[sandi2]

WW said she was just trying to find the right time to end things. My reply was that I don't want to know about the right time,I want to know when it's over, and repeated that she couldn't continue to use me as a dutiful husband while behaving like this.

Much better!

You have drawn a protective line around yourself, and told her you won't be "used". So now, don't worry about what to do to her. Just protect your own feelings, and when she tempt checks or any form of manipulation........you can either repeat how you will not be used as a dutiful H, or walk out of the room......or whatever you need to do to protect your feelings.

You said you needed to be energized and regain passion. When we feel beaten down by another person or situation, it suks the life force from our spirit, self-confidence, self-esteem, self-respect. IMHO, you need to focus on what is best for you. Be your own best friend, instead of trying to be the model, or dutiful H. Whether the M survives or not, YOU need to survive. And you will..........I believe this could be a turning point for you.

[sandi2]

How about an update?

[Woke_Up]

How about an update?

Hi Sandi

I've sat down several times and not managed to finish one over the last week or so - had done one on my phone, then managed to lose it. It has been a mixed bag really.

Going back to last week:

Had been drawing back, minimised interactions and arguments since the weekend. WW told me one evening that the cracks were beginning to show - meaning with our D4. D4 had said we must be nice to each other, that WW must love daddy. That was hard to hear, the impact we are having on the children.

I said that we need to try and keep our arguments and discussions in private, not in front of D or SS.

Mid week was funeral of W's grandfather, so I worked from home and attended that with her.

I lose track of the exact days, but one morning, Saturday I think, WW said she wanted to end the EA but didn't really know how to. She said that she didn't even feel the desire to meet hi any more, that it would be too much aggravation. I said that she knew what had to be done, she'd seen all the information I'd sent her previously and done her own research, and she would need to go No Contact. I said she should consider an IC or a friend to help her. She didn't want to involve 3rd partied and wanted me to help her. I can't remember how I responded to that. It's not right, she should really be asking me to help her end R with her EAP.

Next morning I asked her if she had done anything about it. She said she wanted the right time. I asked if she was worried or scared - she said she had 2 fears. The reaction of OM, and that she would miss 'her friend'. I said that reaction of OM would not be relevant if she went NC and took steps to ensure that he couldn't contact her or vice versa. And as for missing OM, she knew it was an addiction and it was cold turkey and it would be hard, which is why I suggested professional help or a friend to help (she has one friend that knew about the EA, although I think she has since told her it is over, just to avoid talking about it).

Anyway, as far as I can tell she hasn't done anything about this, and we have settled back into limbo.

We are still sharing the MBR. Since these conversations I have been drawn back in a bit. I am not as remote and have resumed being affectionate. She has had a lot of back pain since Sunday when we did some work together outside, moving gravel to put vehicle access round the side of the house - so I have been assisting with her back rubs and stuff at night time. I know that I will probably be told I shouldn't do this, I guess I still suffer from a lot of misplaced guilt.

At dinner one evening, D4 mentioned that she & mummy might be moving to another house and I wasn't going but she wanted me to. W said that wasn't true. I wasn't happy with this as it invalidated D's statement - so I spoke to her about it. She had though D was getting confused about one of her friends moving house, and hadn't realised it was about the conversation from the previous weekend when she had spoken to D about moving.

Anyway, this week, Monday evening, we were sitting at the table and W says to D that she loves daddy. So I told D that I loved mummy, and that we both loved D very much.

Anyway, I don't know if fog is lifting slightly at times, or whether WW is just manipulating me, even if subconsciously. I don't want to keep asking if she has done anything about the EA when it is obvious to me she hasn't.

Anyway, I have been reading the 37 rules every day as Patient Man recommended. emotional detachment comes and goes - good days and bad days. Not so good this week as I let myself become close again after the weekend conversations.

GAL - I am doing my Krav Maga training, and had a 6 hour knife defence seminar on Saturday which was good - very interesting and left me aching. I am training again tonight.

I have also been focussing on the work front - my contract expires at the end of the month, so I have been busy looking for my next one. This has caused a bit of anxiety. I interviewed for one on Tuesday, and thought it didn't go great, but I have had a call back and it was positive - looks like it may go to an offer. I also have another interview this coming Tuesday. Both are in London, so still no end to the long commute and work days, but stability for the family is more important right now. I can keep looking at opportunities closer to home.

I am working from home tomorrow and due to see a L to discuss what the situation would be if a separation was to occur.

I have been re-reading DR, still need to review my action oriented things to do differently. I find the DR book to be much more conciliatory than the advice here with regards to waywards, although it does discuss what to do if they won't end the A, which is predominantly LRT.

I think I will take stock of what I was doing differently that led up to W's conversations about ending the EA, and regain some emotional detachment. The trouble is I keep trying to assign motives to W's words and actions, which I know is a definite no-no. Trying to guess whether she is coming round, or being manipulative, or both or neither... I just need to let it go and carry on doing what I need to.

I'll keep posting. It has just been hectic this last week or so, and often a lack of privacy at home to get on the forum.

Thanks again.

[Gordie]

***Had been drawing back, minimised interactions and arguments since the weekend. WW told me one evening that the cracks were beginning to show - meaning with our D4. D4 had said we must be nice to each other, that WW must love daddy. That was hard to hear, the impact we are having on the children. I said that we need to try and keep our arguments and discussions in private, not in front of D or SS.***

Yes, heartbreaking. W and I are not yellers so we have kept our issues behind closed doors, but I know one time, the kids definitely heard my W screaming...they never said anything about it.

***Mid week was funeral of W's grandfather, so I worked from home and attended that with her.***

So W still wants you to do family things together? Mine too. So confusing.

***I lose track of the exact days, but one morning, Saturday I think, WW said she wanted to end the EA but didn't really know how to. She said that she didn't even feel the desire to meet hi any more, that it would be too much aggravation. I said that she knew what had to be done, she'd seen all the information I'd sent her previously and done her own research, and she would need to go No Contact. I said she should consider an IC or a friend to help her. She didn't want to involve 3rd partied and wanted me to help her. I can't remember how I responded to that. It's not right, she should really be asking me to help her end R with her EAP.***

Wow, not sure what I would do if my W asked me to do that.

***Next morning I asked her if she had done anything about it. She said she wanted the right time. I asked if she was worried or scared - she said she had 2 fears. The reaction of OM, and that she would miss 'her friend'. I said that reaction of OM would not be relevant if she went NC and took steps to ensure that he couldn't contact her or vice versa. And as for missing OM, she knew it was an addiction and it was cold turkey and it would be hard, which is why I suggested professional help or a friend to help (she has one friend that knew about the EA, although I think she has since told her it is over, just to avoid talking about it). Anyway, as far as I can tell she hasn't done anything about this, and we have settled back into limbo.***

Same! W has said things about not pursuing POM, but have tried not to get too excited about it because I have no idea what is really going on...and my guess is, probably nothing has changed...

***We are still sharing the MBR. Since these conversations I have been drawn back in a bit. I am not as remote and have resumed being affectionate. She has had a lot of back pain since Sunday when we did some work together outside, moving gravel to put vehicle access round the side of the house - so I have been assisting with her back rubs and stuff at night time. I know that I will probably be told I shouldn't do this, I guess I still suffer from a lot of misplaced guilt.***

This made me laugh...because I do the same; I'm not the only one!

***At dinner one evening, D4 mentioned that she & mummy might be moving to another house and I wasn't going but she wanted me to. W said that wasn't true. I wasn't happy with this as it invalidated D's statement - so I spoke to her about it. She had though D was getting confused about one of her friends moving house, and hadn't realised it was about the conversation from the previous weekend when she had spoken to D about moving. Anyway, this week, Monday evening, we were sitting at the table and W says to D that she loves daddy. So I told D that I loved mummy, and that we both loved D very much.***

Argh. This is so hard. And we haven't told our kids yet.

***Anyway, I don't know if fog is lifting slightly at times, or whether WW is just manipulating me, even if subconsciously. I don't want to keep asking if she has done anything about the EA when it is obvious to me she hasn't. Anyway, I have been reading the 37 rules every day as Patient Man recommended. emotional detachment comes and goes - good days and bad days. Not so good this week as I let myself become close again after the weekend conversations. GAL - I am doing my Krav Maga training, and had a 6 hour knife defence seminar on Saturday which was good - very interesting and left me aching. I am training again tonight.***

I love extreme workouts...they take your mind off everything!

***I have also been focussing on the work front - my contract expires at the end of the month, so I have been busy looking for my next one. This has caused a bit of anxiety. I interviewed for one on Tuesday, and thought it didn't go great, but I have had a call back and it was positive - looks like it may go to an offer. I also have another interview this coming Tuesday. Both are in London, so still no end to the long commute and work days, but stability for the family is more important right now. I can keep looking at opportunities closer to home.***

Good luck on the work front.

***I am working from home tomorrow and due to see a L to discuss what the situation would be if a separation was to occur.***

I hate the L stuff, but you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

***I have been re-reading DR, still need to review my action oriented things to do differently. I find the DR book to be much more conciliatory than the advice here with regards to waywards, although it does discuss what to do if they won't end the A, which is predominantly LRT. I think I will take stock of what I was doing differently that led up to W's conversations about ending the EA, and regain some emotional detachment. The trouble is I keep trying to assign motives to W's words and actions, which I know is a definite no-no. Trying to guess whether she is coming round, or being manipulative, or both or neither... I just need to let it go and carry on doing what I need to. I'll keep posting. It has just been hectic this last week or so, and often a lack of privacy at home to get on the forum.***

Definitely worth re-reading DB/DR and reassessing. I wish I had more/better advice for you. You are not alone.

[sandi2]

Wasn't it your W who said she was trying to find the right time to end her A? You don't find a right time, and you don't let try to let the OM down easily. There is no tapering off an A, and there is no seeing OM one last time for "closure".

WW said she wanted to end the EA but didn't really know how to.

Seriously, if she had really had it out with the OM, I bet she'd know exactly how to end it with him. Her excuses sound scripted from the WW textbook.

I said that she knew what had to be done, she'd seen all the information I'd sent her previously and done her own research, and she would need to go No Contact. I said she should consider an IC or a friend to help her. She didn't want to involve 3rd partied and wanted me to help her. I can't remember how I responded to that. It's not right, she should really be asking me to help her end R with her EAP.

It's one thing to help find the information and give support while she is actually going through the withdrawals......but you cannot do it for her.
If your W truly wants help, I think she'll show more intent. Otherwise, I think she's playing you. The more she sees you accepting her betraying behavior, and she still profits from the MR in some kind of way......the less intent she'll have in ending things with OM.

Anyway, as far as I can tell she hasn't done anything about this, and we have settled back into limbo.

I look at it this way......it takes two to have an argument. If you don't argue with her, then she can't have an argument by herself. You cannot settle back into limbo, if you are moving forward. She can either move with you, or she can be left alone in own state of limbo. You don't have to join.

At dinner one evening, D4 mentioned that she & mummy might be moving to another house and I wasn't going but she wanted me to. W said that wasn't true. I wasn't happy with this as it invalidated D's statement - so I spoke to her about it. She had though D was getting confused about one of her friends moving house, and hadn't realised it was about the conversation from the previous weekend when she had spoken to D about moving.

To me, it sounds more like a WW's smoke & mirrors to throw off her suspicious H's questions.

emotional detachment comes and goes - good days and bad days. Not so good this week as I let myself become close again after the weekend conversations.

B/c your values and standards are being compromised.

I find the DR book to be much more conciliatory than the advice here with regards to waywards, although it does discuss what to do if they won't end the A, which is predominantly LRT.

Maybe b/c the book does not have feedback and speaks to more of a general audience of many scenarios....whereas, the board is dealing personally with you about the specific problems at your address. If it had not been for the specific advice from people on the DB board back in 2007, I don't know that I could have mustered the strength to go completely NC, and......not find another OM. FWIW, I felt that I did not find much instruction for me, as a wayward wife, in the DR book. That's not to say the book failed. As a WW, I just felt that it was mainly addressed to the LBS. Therefore, my instructions basically came from mentors on the board. The wayward spouse is not specifically addressed in the book, and the same approach is given for everyone......which in some cases, I have to respectfully disagree. I'm just giving you my personal opinion. If you will research the subject of the wayward wife, I think you'll find that a soft-love approach is not successful. With the WAW, most definitely, yes....and maybe even with some MLCW (IDK, b/c I haven't studied MLCW very much). My focus has been on the wayward, and I also believe there are many newcomers who label their own spouse as MLC, b/c the overt behavior mirrors the description list they read about MLC. However, it may not be MLC at all, but rather waywardness that has festered for years and just now acting out in the rebellion stage.

[SBJ]

So, Sandi great info, but how would one decide whether it is MLC vs WW. I know in my situation, all signs pointed one way, but who the heck really knows?

[sandi2]

So, Sandi great info, but how would one decide whether it is MLC vs WW. I know in my situation, all signs pointed one way, but who the heck really knows?

That's a really good question. Just doing a google search will show one reason why we are confused. So far, I have not found a site that explained the differences. In fact, I did not find one that used WW, MLC, and WAW in the same article (or whatever the site might have been). Crazy, huh? Why hasn't someone tackled that job? (It's probably out there, but I have not found it.)

You may have read how MLC is the result of a person transitioning from the younger side of life, into middle age.....and for various reasons they strongly resist it to the point of creating a mess of their life and the lives of their spouse and kids. From what I have gleaned from the years I've been here, is how certain things can happen that seem to trigger the MLC. So, I think it can be more complicated than just transitioning into middle age. The person in MLC may be angry at everyone around them, or angry at life for cheating them in some way. I won't get off into all of it, b/c it is too much. Another thing that is discouraging about MLC, is can last for several years.

The wayward wife can be any age, and she's not in transition. Where MLC may appear to show up overnight, I think waywardness happens covertly, so appears to be at a slower rate.....until she hits overt rebellion. She has a lot of anger, too, but her anger is directed toward her H. She blames him for everything bad, and nothing good happen for her....and he's why she is not happy. Her waywardness is born out of her heart when she allows resentment toward her H to take root. She doesn't forgive and she doesn't forget. She holds on to that resentment and she usually feeds it. She feels disrespect in her heart for her H. She begins to show her resentment and disrespect in subtle ways, at first, and as it builds momentum.....she dares to feel rebellion toward her M and her H. The rebellion is usually seen in her growing inappropriate behavior. Waywardness is a defiant, bitter, selfish, and hardened heart......directed toward her spouse. The disrespect she feels for her spouse affects her loving feelings. In most cases that I've read, the WW creates a fantasy in her head that propels her EA/PA/IA.

There is more than we could hope to cover in a few posts, about the WW and MLCW. Knowing your W's past, her parents, life changing experiences, and former long-term R's.......might enlighten you, if you suspect MLC. Your marital history, the dynamics of the MR, and her temperament/attitude toward you.....might help you decide if she fits the description of a WW. Sometimes, it takes learning more information on the subject, and a lot of personal and honest Q & A about your W and your MR, in order to know the basis or source of the problems.

[Woke_Up]

Today was not a good day. Journalling.

Friday: worked from home, D was ill so not at school, so had some quality time with her, even if it did prevent me getting quite as much done as planned. My emotions were running high, was nearly in tears when she was sitting on my lap singing along to Disney Moana songs. Also had to take SS16 to his part time job and then to the orthodontist. W was out having her hair done so didn't see her much until later. Things were fine. In bed, ended up giving her the usual back rub, and later ended up ML.

Saturday: Overslept (8:15am) so would have been a rush to take D to her ballet lesson, but D said she still felt ill. so that didn't happen. Got intimate again with W in the morning after she was provocative with me. Did some work outside on the gravel/drive at the side of the house.


I had a private message from a political satirist on Twitter, we were discussing some current issues in the UK. W was immediately asking if she was flirting with me. W likes the comedienne in question, and actually introduced me to her.

Unfortunately snooped a bit, against my better judgement, but managed to hold off saying anything. Decided I am letting myself be taken for a ride, she is obviously cake eating. Can't work out what to do about it.

Today: Morning was OK, took SS to work, went out for a nice dog walk, picked SS up afterwards and took him for some driving practice. WW was out with D and friends at a play barn.

WW returned with D later, and told me how she had bumped into an ex, and felt horrible after seeing him, wanted me to hold and hug her.

Later, the stupidity too hold and I snooped at her phone a bit. When she came into the study where I was working, she said she still felt weird and dirty - she was referring to the ex bf incident, which I knew, but I responded by saying 'what, about the affair?' She said no, the ex-bf, and I told her she should feel that way about the affair. Anyway, I took another walk to try and cool down - which worked for a while.

Anyway, then the demons took hold again - W was upstairs, so I suspected she was on her other phone on skype to OM. She was. I read some of the messages, and saw read - the sex talk was there again, including how she thought of him while pleasuring herself yesterday... This made me mad, as we had ML yesterday, and then she's telling him this. Other stuff - she had also told OM about her ex-bf. He wanted to know why she didn't feel the same way about the 'ex she was still living with' - I was so close to responding to him from her skype account, but forced myself to hold back. I often wonder if I should make him see that we are still together, but last time I tried that, she managed to convince him I was lying, so I am not sure it would work. All the things I have read on her or in the book point towards not contacting him. She had also told him about the comedian being in touch with me and it was obviously bothering him, as he told her he didn't want to talk about me any more.

Anyway, back to the point - I marched upstairs and had angry words with W, told her that I had seen her other phone, that it was completely disrespectful what she was doing, and that I had told her I would block her phones for 24Hrs.

She didn't say anything other than to ask if I had access to her skype account, which I don't. She came and peered my laptop screen (to check, I assume) when I went back in the study to work/cool down.

Since then, have tried to be calm. Interactions are not unpleasant, we are being civil and cordial. She asked me to pick up some cream for the dinner she was cooking for all of us, so I did. I am assuming that as she is doing the family meal and I am included that it would up pointless, unkind and selfish to not assist.

Anyway, just siting down to dinner. She asked if I wanted mine in study - I said yes, as D is in here having hers, she was feeling hot and poorly when she was in the lounge, and it is cooler in here. I said thankyou to W for making it, and she just said 'I suppose you have to be nice to me about something'. I said I try am nice to her most of the time, I just get upset about things some times. She replied 'Don't we all'

And that's it. Up to date.
Morals to this story:
* Learn to recognise the signs of slipping into bad habits.
* Find ways of dealing with it when the demons come to call
* DO NOT SNOOP, no matter how much you want to. It really doesn't help.

More than anything, I am disappointed with myself. While not quite back to square one, I do feel I have taken a couple of backwards steps. Time to centre myself, take stock, and start again.

Wish me luck.

[Woke_Up]

Anyway, back to the point - I marched upstairs and had angry words with W, told her that I had seen her other phone, that it was completely disrespectful what she was doing, and that I had told her I would block her phones for 24Hrs.

Oh, and I forgot the icing on the cake. Turns out I don't know what the MAC address is for her new phone so I can't block it from the home WiFI for 24hrs anyway, so no consequence to enforce my boundary. Yes. I did say [Censored] to myself quite a bit once I worked that out.

[Woke_Up]

Seriously, if she had really had it out with the OM, I bet she'd know exactly how to end it with him. Her excuses sound scripted from the WW textbook.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you after this weekend.

Otherwise, I think she's playing you. The more she sees you accepting her betraying behavior, and she still profits from the MR in some kind of way......the less intent she'll have in ending things with OM.

That's what I was feeling today. I had been getting my hopes up after she talked of ending the EA. She had been googling 'dear john' letters on Thursday, and she was reading 'Torn Asunder' on Friday - but then on Friday night or Saturday she talked about the book and was quite dismissive as there was a lot of religion in it, or people who were in the Church having A's. W is not particularly religious, she describes herself as Spiritual. I asked if there was anything useful in it, and she said some parts. But behavior has not changed.

Anyway, her new bed arrives next Saturday, so she will move out of MBR. That physical space may help with things, I can't do backrubs or ML if she is in a different room. WW is still saying that she wants to move due to her not getting enough sleep, although from what I have seen recently, I haven't caused her any issues getting to sleep.

The wayward spouse is not specifically addressed in the book, and the same approach is given for everyone......which in some cases, I have to respectfully disagree. I'm just giving you my personal opinion. If you will research the subject of the wayward wife, I think you'll find that a soft-love approach is not successful. With the WAW, most definitely, yes....and maybe even with some MLCW (IDK, b/c I haven't studied MLCW very much). My focus has been on the wayward, and I also believe there are many newcomers who label their own spouse as MLC, b/c the overt behavior mirrors the description list they read about MLC. However, it may not be MLC at all, but rather waywardness that has festered for years and just now acting out in the rebellion stage.

I think what you saying makes sense. I'm not that sure the DB/DR book approach wouldn't work eventually, but it just seems like a recipe for cake eating in the mean time, and I don't want to have trouble looking myself in the mirror by accepting what she is doing. As for MLC, I think there are times elements are intermingled. My WW is currently focusing on feeling old, wrinkles, wanting BOTOX etc, but I don't feel this is a primary cause of her waywardness, it maybe just adds to it.

[sandi2]

Since then, have tried to be calm. Interactions are not unpleasant, we are being civil and cordial. She asked me to pick up some cream for the dinner she was cooking for all of us, so I did. I am assuming that as she is doing the family meal and I am included that it would up pointless, unkind and selfish to not assist.

I have a hard time understanding men who know the W is cheating under their very roof......and yet, he convinces himself with some type of b.s. rationale that he should make an even bigger effort to nice her back. Come on........you caught her lying, dishonoring your boundary, and cheating. She practically told the OM she fantasizes about him as she is having sex with you....but then you feel it would be selfish and unkind of you not to assist her in preparing the meal?

Anyway, her new bed arrives next Saturday, so she will move out of MBR. That physical space may help with things, I can't do backrubs or ML if she is in a different room.

Oh really? What if she goes to your room, or calls you into hers......making up some excuse for you to hold her again? The physical space won't help as long as she can wrap you around her finger so easily. I wish you would have followed my advice about the importance attraction plays......and for the WW, she wants what she can't have so easily. The woman does not respect a man who knows she is betraying him, and he still gives her anything she wants (back rubs, hugs, sex, etc.). She is not attracted to a man who catches her red handed....and then runs to her side to cook supper b/c he has nice-guy syndrome.

WW is still saying that she wants to move due to her not getting enough sleep, although from what I have seen recently, I haven't caused her any issues getting to sleep.

Stop it. Why are you paying any attention to what she is "saying"? She is moving into another room b/c it benefits her. Plain & simple. You see, she has no problem wondering if it is selfish or unkind. It is what she wants, and she will lie to make herself look better. Stop looking at her as if you need to woo her back into the MR, as if she is normal. She is wayward!

I think what you saying makes sense. I'm not that sure the DB/DR book approach wouldn't work eventually, but it just seems like a recipe for cake eating in the mean time, and I don't want to have trouble looking myself in the mirror by accepting what she is doing.

Okay, then I am going to believe that last part is referring to your self-respect. It is important that you are able to maintain respect for yourself, isn't it? Would I be correct in saying that plays a big part in your decision making up to this time in your life? If so, then I hope you will be able to understand how important it is to a MR. A man has to respect himself, and command respect from others, especially those in his own house. The children have to be taught to respect him (even if they are disobedient and rebel), and so does the man's wife. It will not happen by being their BFF, or by ignoring their bad behavior. It won't happen if they are not held accountable, don't face consequences of their actions, or continue enjoying benefits you provide. Respect is the gateway to love and admiration.

[Woke_Up]

Addendum.
A few words going to bed last night, as W wanted me to look for something for her, and I wasn't happy about it, given her continued
Some words about the bedroom move coming up, and I said it would be good as well. She then said she was looking forward to her new bathroom. I said it wasn't fair on the kids to start doing things like that, and that SS16 and I had put in a new cleaning regime to ensure bathroom is OK for all in the house, including the females. W said that she was going to have it anyway, I said it was just having a tantrum and exerting control and penalising the kids.
Then, just before settling down to sleep, WW said she loved me. I said she had a funny way of showing it. She said it was true, nevertheless. My final response was 'what do you expect me to say to that' and she said she didn't expect me to say anything.

Not feeling great this morning, preying on my mind again. I woke up early (4:30 and didn't get back to sleep before my 5am alarm).

Going to get back to some mindfulness and try and clear my head.

[Gordie]

Then, just before settling down to sleep, WW said she loved me. I said she had a funny way of showing it. She said it was true, nevertheless. My final response was 'what do you expect me to say to that' and she said she didn't expect me to say anything.

Wow. This is an awesome response. Can I borrow that one?

[Woke_Up]

Then, just before settling down to sleep, WW said she loved me. I said she had a funny way of showing it. She said it was true, nevertheless. My final response was 'what do you expect me to say to that' and she said she didn't expect me to say anything.

Wow. This is an awesome response. Can I borrow that one?

Feel free Gordie

[Woke_Up]

OK, so today is slowly crucifying me. It shouldn't be, I should be ready fo it, but I'm not.

So WW sends me a txt msg on journey home saying she only has a small amount of money left in her account, and needs to get stuff for D's birthday, so we'll make do with the food we have in the house.

I say ok, I have a similar amount in mine, and a bit in the business account, what is left for D's birthday, we can split it between us. She lists the things but no costs, so I'm not sure.

Then she sends a message when I'm nearly home saying we should sell the house, as it's risky living in one we can't afford (we can afford it, we have just not been any good at saving up this year). Her view is that the bills are too expensive, the mortgage is too expensive and I may not be able to find a job at some point (all valid concerns, I guess).

When I get home, she has prepared to sleep in the spare room - made up the mattress on the floor (bed frame arrives on Saturday), moved the things from her bedside table in there.

She talks about the money, says it is difficult as she has no control over things, only gets so much per month with the wages from my company - I pointed out that she had had more than double her wages already this month (selective memory forgetting she blew her wages on day 1 with the new bed). Then she starts talking about how she should have never given up her council house which she was living in when we met. That it's OK for me, I have a good job, she has nothing. I tried to point out that she doesn't have nothing, but struggling to validate her today. She also said that she had to go to the spare room, and didn't even get to keep her bathroom!! I'm sorry, but I can't validate that bs. That's just entitlement, with no regard for the months I spent on the floor in D's room or the months in the spare room, including after BD.

She wanted me to see if D can spend the school half term break at my parents, so we can blitz the garden and get the house on the market. I told her I'm not sure I want to rush into it yet.

I guess she is thinking about separation, but hasn't said it. Or she is testing me because I have been withdrawn today. I am still feeling it from yesterday, in fact I am feeling worse than I have for a while.

All of this just fills me with sadness. It makes me feel lost, and the thought of my family not being together is unbearable. I know that I could cope. But my D, and the effect it would have on her breaks my heart.

I have another job interview tomorrow for a new contract, and I need to be preparing for that, but this is such a distraction. I know I should just let what she says wash over me (believe nothing of what they say), but it is difficult. Why she has to decide to talk about selling up when I'm trying to focus on getting a new contract, it's just typical.

Anyway, I am just letting her get on with it. Time for me to eat dinner, do interview prep, and get some decent sleep if I can.

[Surfer]

Woke_Up,

Pay no mind to what she says. It is all fabricated. She wants to be separate and free. She has this idea that the grass is greener. It is not. She will use her fabricated stories to justify her destination and her gas-lighting and spew to convince you. Listen, validate but treat 100% of everything she says as a lie - it most likely is. A lot of what she does is also. She will rage and spew if she can not get you to follow her lies, due to frustration. Stand firm.

This is a sh!tty time. You just stand firm. Don't let her get in your head. If she is exercise to get her out. Then keep her out. Forget her as your W, you must stop wanting her (as she is). You need to see her for what she has become, not what she was. Let this new person go and then decide if the old W can come back. She may not.

You are being an amazing Dad. Remember that. Be the best version of you for your D, SS and you. The crazy one IS NOT YOU!! She will try to make you feel like it is. She has perhaps learned this behaviour. Stand strong matey!!!

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Surfer.

I have just been reading some of Sandi2's threads for the LBH, and she has it spot on. I still need to work on getting my balls back, I'm too afraid of the conflict within the house - that's why I am having trouble with boundaries as there is no way in shielding the kids from the conflict easily.

I'd be interested in hearing from some of the other LBS's on what boundaries they put in place while still living under the same roof.

I know I've gone on about WW skyping OM from within the house, but I'm not even sure that's an enforceable boundary. I could go to the effort of scanning the home network and working out which device is her new phone, but then I have to catch her in the act again, and I only did that by snooping. I really screwed it up on Sunday by not being able to enforce it.

I think I will work on the disrespect side, which is rampant. Pick her up on it every time she resorts to insults etc.

The other thing I need to do is stop being her errand boy... years of conditioning is hard to break, deep breath, off I go...

Anyway, spoke to L today. Helped knowing the actual legalities of our situation. Being not married, there is no spousal maintenance should we split. Child support would be a given. Joint house would be 50/50 as would any savings or joint debts. She could force a house sale if she really wanted, but she couldn't force me out without some sort of court order and a damn good reason. And if it was viewed that she had enough from the sale of the house to provide a roof over hers and the kids heads, there would be no additional order for providing that.

I don't want it to get to that, but part of me thinks that my W is so hard headed and stubborn (by her own admission, even if it hurts her) that it may take something as serious as S to get her to even self reflect - plus I know that if I move to S then I have to be ready for S and not just hoping it will shake her out of the EA.

On the plus side, good interview today. Hopefully have a new contract soon. Training tonight, work out some of this angst.

[Woke_Up]

Oh, found a way to enforce the internet boundary. I do not recommend throwing the router out of the window though.

Lost the plot. My bad.

I will have to see if it works, otherwise I'm penalising kids. I have spare routers lying about the place, fortunately.

Anyway, WW described this as punishment - is it? Or is it a consequence? And what is the difference?

I'll fill in more details tomorrow

W-U

[Rose888]

Seems like punishment to me. Also patronizing.

Adults do not control other adults' access to the Internet, phone, etc.

[Woke_Up]

Point taken, Rose. Thanks for your viewpoint. So, if my boundary is that she doesn't contact OM inside the house, how would I enforce it or what would be the appropriate consequence?

I guess I'm thinking of it as me paying to enable her, but probably shouldn't be thinking in those terms when she is a SAHM and the unwritten agreement is that I provide financially and she provides the home/care element.

I guess the enforcement is that I withdraw further from her, to protect myself from the feeling of being abused by her actions.

[Rose888]

I think withdrawal is the only enforcement option you have.

[Woke_Up]

I think withdrawal is the only enforcement option you have.

You're right. I've failed at it so far, every time I think I'm ready I get sucked back in.

In reality, I can't stop her from contacting him from within the house, the consequence was that she would have to pay for her contact by using phone data rather than me paying for it, however that doesn't protect me or my boundaries - well, depends whether it actually causes her to think and take this thing outside. I'd guess behaviour to date indicates she won't do that.

OK, should I apologise for reacting in this way and say it was an inappropriate response or should I just reinstate it without saying anything? Or say my reaction was inappropriate without apologising? I'm not very good at this stuff. I don't feel particularly sorry, but I am still angry and upset about it.

[Gordie]

Following Rose's advice always works for me. She is wise.

Actions speak louder than words. Do the right thing immediately. If the time and place is right for an apology, then do so but with no expectations that your W will think better of you or forgive you. Do it because you think it is the right thing to do.

Further, if your boundary is NC with the OM does it matter if it happens in the home or elsewhere? W continues to contact OM. Some DR stories say to ignore the OM as he is a symptom and not the cause of your problems. This is what I am doing, but others here say it is insane to ignore. What is right in your situation?

[Seeker7]

Boundaries are only good when you can control them respectfully. You can only control yourself. I would agree with Rose888. Now for the apology that is something everyone needs to do if they lost their cool over something and know that they took it to far.

First of all an apology is only true if it is sincere. Also even if you say that your reaction was inappropriate that is a form of apology. That is admissions of guilt. Just saying sorry is another. There are five forms of apologies and each person responds different to each one.

You can find a better description of this on this thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2724890#Post2724890

[Woke_Up]

New thread - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2727125&#Post2727125