Previous thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2715601&page=11So I have listened to the 5 LL book. It really makes sense to me. It's too early to implement as part of piecing but I recognise positive responses from my W when I provide Acts of Service. This and Words of Affirmation are, I believe, her LL's.
I am going to start to experiment with this and record the results. I am remaining NC unless about the kids and W is starting to make more contact and act more 'normally'. She is being kinder. I don't pursue her but it feels she is starting to do that now. I am also getting my mind set back into Evens/One-Up, while sitch made me feel One-Down which is not how I historically felt.
Future is looking bright in fairness, with or without W.
Watch this space.
Surfer.
Surfer, just catching back up from the week. Sounds like you've got the lab coat on and are setting up quite an experiment. I gained a lot from the LL book as well. The one thing I've been doing is trying to implement stuff like that on other folks in my life, be it family or work folks. It's been great practice for me and I feel like I'm getting better at that type of stuff.
With my W, I know there's no chance she'd be open to any of the LL stuff at this point. My W, I believe, would fall under the Acts of Service and Quality Time languages. The quality time one is out the window, as she'd rather be in a rodeo riding a porcupine than spending an extended period w/ me currently. I have been implementing the Acts of Service one, though it's not truly driven by concerns around her. It's more driven by me realizing I hadn't been fully engaged in my responsibilities around the house pre-BD. Hence, I'm doing them now bc it's the right thing to do, however, it also has the added benefit of being an Act of Service.
One thing I'd offer is that you follow a similar path. Don't execute on the Acts of Service stuff if it's driven solely by trying to fill your Ws tank. Do those Acts bc you believe them to be the right things to do. I believe your consistency and strength will be noticed. I too find myself concerned that to do otherwise would push you into the realm of pursuit.
Regardless, if you're keeping close watch you should be able to see if you're moving into pursuit land. Just keep a close, close eye on things and don't let them get out of your control. Either way, I'm curious to see the results. hoping for the best for you brother!
Thanks LT and all good advice. When still together in the haclion days of spew, total rebellion, history rewriting etc, this would not work. In fact, anything I did in terms of AoS, G, PT, QT was rejected and hard. Even WoV were by rage and spew. Not a chance. Now we are pretty much NC she is making more contact. Mostly about kids right now but she is making eye contact talking and inviting me into her space. I have zero expectations and am experimenting so the our come is about clinical observation only. Zero emotion. Other than being totally happ, as I am.
Surfer.
Dropped the kids last night after a lovely weekend. Cinema, bike ride in the woods and dinner out at a restaurant. That was just Sunday! Also swimming etc. Anyway, dropped kids - did not get out of the car. Still NC.
W called this morning. In tears, apologising, I am really sorry. Sounded genuine. She has a migraine and can't get to work. I said don't worry I'll take them. Gathered everything they need and picked them up and also took them. Also took a weak juice drink - S6 bought it the other day but it's what W drinks when she has a migraine and has to lay in bed.
Anyway she said thanks and genuinely looked poorly and rough. Didn't have any feelings of desire or feelings at all for her really, it did feel like I was going round to a neighbours. I took the kids to school and this was kind of an AoS. I am going to monitor the results. I could have said no, you sacked me as a H but the kids didn't sack me as a Dad and the day would have hit the skids for them if they were late and both have colds etc. I am going to pick them up from school and take S6 to football too - more time with them! I am doing this for them however no W. So it's kind of an incidental AoS.
Surfer.
It is a fine balancing act and none of us are perfect at it bit we need to do our best.EEveryone's situation is different and their spouses will differ in their responses/reaction.
Surfer, I am sure a certain part of your motivation is to improve your R with W. Only you can honestly determine the extent. In my situation I was mindful of what is considered as pursuit/pressure by the WAS. But over time I had to choose between acting the way I want to be and following advice on how not to push W away. It is a balancing act but over time I edge towards being the man I want to be. Part of that is also about how I want to treat others including W. To cut a long explication short, your actions need to be mainly focused on YOU. If you are truly doing it for you, ecpectations will be low and any negative reactions will not affect you.
In most cases pursuing a distancing spouse will only push them sway further and quicker. Be aware of that and the fact that W is not on board to save M. Most people here will advise to be more patient and wait for using the LL. But if the coach is recommending it, go for it. But do so carefully.
I had intended talking to you about other stuff I came across a long time ago. It was about improving your chances of being heard by communicating in your spouses primary learning modality and enhancing that by knowing and using their core values. Look into it, if that interests you.
I will leave you with a quote from cadet who advised me early on not to pursue communication as a goal: communication is not possible if the other person is not receptive. IMO this applies to all forms of connecting.
Surfer you have had a long hard journey. I salute you for keeping going. I also find it refreshing to read here, someone following the part of Michelle's book about trying something,
observing and noting what works. One bad reaction does not necessarily mean it is a failure. Plus what does not work now may be better received in six months time.
I look forward to reading your posts best wishes
Cheers Roist. I like a well through out response with lots of insight and advice from someone that has been there!!
I am going to find some time to post an update on my experimenting later today. However, so far so good is all I can say. Starting to feel very much in charge of my own destiny!!!
Surfer.
So, my LL today were to look after my W. I took the kids to school from her house. Picked them up and dropped them off. Took her a drink she normally has with a migrant and then took S to football.
I didn't count the thank you' but there were a lot together with I really appreciate that thank you - twice I recall on top of other thank you's.
Many have been wary of my approach - and frankly quite rightly. I understand that very well educated and experienced stance.
However, what I see here are LL WoA from my W. Her LL are exactly that when recovering together with AoS. Has to be the right time and place of course. I feel no elation at this I just see the'results' of my experiment.
I still don't want my W back. I feel no pain I feel no joy. I am however happy.
Surfer.
Migrant - LoL. Migraine!
Those migrants. Pesky types, they get everywhere don't they!
Surfer.
I really need to start proof reading my posts. Oh dear....LoL.
Is there a way I can get an alert so I know someone has seen my post to help them?
Also, how can I track and fine people. I keep loosing contact with people I want to be 'there' for such as LT, Darkness, Maybell etc.
I have a really random way of finding responses and threads and "IT JUST DOESNT FEEL ORGANISED ENOUGH!" - I don't meant the forum-it's great, more how I am making it work for me (them) or not. Through the my ineptitude clearly.
Any advice greatfuly recieved.
Surfer.
Well you can add threads to your watched thread and then you are notified on your email when new threads are posted...
Going under the menu "My Stuff" above. From there you can watch forums, watch topics and watch users.
Sorry I've been a bit out of action recently, I've been pretty busy!
I must say your little experiment seems to be going well. I can sense the kindness coming out of you. And as long as your expectations are at zilch (I know you said they are), then I don't see the harm. It's doing what works and consistency. Personally, I think that the kindness is great, where there are children involved, as they are seeing all. That's what keeps me being nice and civil with wh,,I don't want my child to see their parents angry. Unfortunately wh is still very wayward so we barely see or hear from him so this would not work with him. I'll keep watching and learning from you though.
Keep it up, you really do seem in a genuinely better place.
Good on you. Don't mind read or over interpret those results.
It is good she notices,acknowledges and appreciates your AOS. I would just say that showing appreciation does not IMO count as Words of Affection.
As for not knowing if you want her back. That probably will help you as it is not your motivation. I imagine if down the road she wants back she will not be the same person as now/recently so you should not decide that yet. Cross that bridge when/if it comes up.
Best wishes.
Cherry,
Glad you have been busy! Keep that GAL going even if its mundane stuff....
It's doing what works and consistency.
Exactly. Do it enough and it creates a pattern. That pattern creates a new "character" in the mind of the WS IMO. Their crisis justifies a new character for you (re-written history/spew related/spouse bashing) but the new character is different. In their eyes the LBS changes - and to some degree they do.
No expectations - I don't want an unconscious bias to dictate the outcome of my experiment LoL!
Surfer.
Thanks Roist,
It is good she notices,acknowledges and appreciates your AOS. I would just say that showing appreciation does not IMO count as Words of Affection
IDK about this. Whether its Words of Affirmation or not its certainly good and provides a guide. It's the WS saying, this is a good thing for me. Some might say, 'that's cake eating talking'; I get that too. But actually, why not be kind. As I say, it's an experiment, I will monitor what happens and report on progress....
In terms of "not wanting her back", I agree. I mean, she has not done any work yet. If she does, I will be happy to reconsider - provided she does the right work....
Surfer.
Picture me sitting in the stands watching your experiment raptly, like an intense tennis match. I am wearing your team colors and silently cheering you on. I watched the LRT and MWD states clearly that when one thinks the term "cake eating" it is ego and pride talking. To do something with a beginner's mind means to put your expectations aside, it means that if you don't get a good reaction you don't feel "let down." It means you are doing this as an exercise in "what works."
You are better at this than me, I still struggle with detachment. There are times when I truly don't feel pain or sadness when WH doesn't respond to my trial and error. But there are/were times when he would just grunt or shrug when I said or did something nice. It's a process, we do what works and try to leave our ego at the door. You're awesome!
Sara
Thank you. Really kind.
I don't feel so awesome today. I span out - a tiny bit. W asked if I was near home and I said no just 10mins away walking back from a meeting. She offered a lift but it wasn't convenient. I told her I appreciated the offer. She dropped of D9 15 mins later for piano lessons. All good. I presumed the offer of a lift W LL (AoS) was a positive sign but something felt odd. Turns out she needed to drop D9 so she could go get a waxing prior to dropping S6 for sleepover. For all I know the waxing was confined to her top lip (given the ruddyness) but so what. Unfortunately this is all a trigger 'just need to pop out - red lip on return days followed by a co stricter argument so she could claim to have to leave for a sleepover with friends'. W surprised me at the door with D6 saying whilst it's her weekend with kids she is going to offer the to me otherwise MIL will have them. I bit at this. She did this 2 weeks after she left. Those devastated kids got left so W could go to Portugal with wayward friends dressed up like a hen party. She said it had been arranged for ages and I said but you are just dumping the kids on your weekend again - like Portugal and its very disappointing. I said I couldn't help her right now with this. W constantly puts her feelings and times away with the girls before the kids. She left in a 'mood'. I said little but at dinner asked the kids if they wanted to go to MIL air stay with me. I felt that was the best approach. They want to have a sleepover with MIL as they have not seen her in fairness. So this seems like the right thing to do to me. D9 said W is going with the wayward friends all getting dressed up as golf girls - short blue skirt, white shirt, hat and converse with heels and chains or something?? According to D9. IDK. At 40 you would think she and her friends would grow up.
Anyway, after cooking dinner I tidied did bedtime and reflected on this. I am just going to detach from it. She knows dumping the kids is bad form. I know the reason for the break away is probably all lies. I also know she should have told me way before if it has been arranged for ages As she said - I have plans too. She should also not arrange things with MIL then ask me if I want to have them. If I say yes and the kids don't want to it gets messsy. Anyway, I am tired so spewing a bit. I am just going to go NC now again and ignore her nonsense.
Still not sure about the finances. A separation agreement is ideal but not for R. However, right now I don't want to R and as for LL's - the experiment is on hold. LoL.
Ah well. Let's see what the next couple of weeks bring. I am sure when she has spent the weekend away and had a hard week at work then another weekend apart from the kids, folllowed by another hard week at work she might look at things differently. For now I am not going to be doing any more AoS an little response generally. If she starts being decent fine but otherwise I'll leave her to her own devices I think.
Surfer.
Sounds like a plan. When you're dealing with a WAS it is a delicate dance you do between 180 and pursuit. And if that was spew then I am impressed, my spews usually consist of screaming like a harpy and copious curse words.
Ha ha. I am very careful not to shout or curse . Mostly to prevent her spew. I don't want to contribute to the kids fears. Only last night at bedtime D9 was telling me how she can still hear the shouting WW spew and rage - me listening, validating. My D is a bit of Drama queen in fairness, quite theatrical but both kids and I did go through a very frightening period. I think at this point W was truely wayward (less now) and was confusing EA (still not sure it was a PA) for being in love - as she was pursuing and being persued. So she was a mess and we all really suffered - TBH she was an absolute b!tch at the time but that is the sign of a wayward. Anyway my point is that I try and operate with short clear words that strike a chord. I try not to curse but instead expressed 'disappointment' in this case 'because you are again droppping the kids for someone else when they are with you'. I don't do this to hurt but I do it to make a direct point. Unfortunately my W only really has people that validate poor behaviour in her life. The 'truth darts' I provide are very rare now but she needs them. I have to try to balance the damage it does when trying to R with the importance of those messages she needs to hear. Not always easy but I try to give her these messages so they hit the target. This one did. She certainly won't consider me in persuit now that's a fact!
So be it. She needs boundaries. She is going to get them. Hopefully less and less over time - as that will show improving behaviour.
Surfer.
I do hope you realize, that boundary setting is for your sake and not to "improve" the behavior of your W. She is in her own film and trust me, in her mind she was/is very much in love with her AP. Her confusing these emotions with love has no merit. Even if you try pointing this out, you will only get spew. So don't even go there.
Protect yourself in all areas (financial, emotional,...). She WILL do and say things that will hurt you, but just remember, trust none they say and oly half of what they do...
She does not need boundaries, if you need them, you erect them...
Vapo thanks. That makes sense. I have been confusing this. It I see it now. When I am saying "I am hanging up at this point as this converse is unproductive" - I am doing this 100% for me? Surely there is a bit of cross over as ultimately they 'should' learn from these boundaries and whilst I accept you should set them for 'you' alone. It a little grey rather than black and white.
I am resetting NC for a while. For me.
W popped round this morning to drop kids school shoes. Disorganised again. Attempted to spew. I just blocked it and took the kids to school happy.
In fairness I was colder than I should have been. Clipped in my response (vexed but polite) rather than happily responding to the nosey neighbour as such. She attempted to pick me up in that I just said I am fine but need to get the kids ready as we are Running late. W said is that it 'no thank you?' I said thanks for the she's. I then said I'll have to go see you later and closed the door. She knows I am not happy and it's because she is again putting wayward friends in front of time with the kids. I think she feels guilty because of this. So be it.
Surfer.
Journaling...
I notice that in the morning, when she drops kids for the school run, my W likes to have some form of interaction. I am happier not having one. rather than being positive it's most often an opportunity for her to tell me what to do, "you need to remember to" (usually something obvious about the kids - brush their teeth in a circular motion, tell them to breathe out after breathing in etc.). My questions are:
1. I have seen this on other threads. What is this about? Her validation, feeling 'one up', in control, temp checking IDK.
2. I am bored of it. I am going to start saying "I already understood that but thanks for trying to help." That way it's not harsh - Although I feel like shouting in her face "WTF do you think I am a f**king moron you self centred ignotistical ****.
". Clearly I never would and don't but I am alowed to be a human on the inside even if on the outside I need to keep calm control.
I presume me saying this is honest to the point of putting a boundary in place - I.e I don't want this petty advice because I don't need it? Any thoughts?
3. This interaction point in the morning allows her an extra - 15 mins in bed and feels to her like me I am sharing the load. Morning are a stress flashpoint for my W - she tends to not be able to cope with a 'normal mums role'. Massive complainer how life is hard - victim etc. Anyway, I give the kids a cuddle for 15 mins and they get chance to touch base. Sometimes they say important things and others they are just quite happy. Because of this I don't want to ditch this as it keeps us closer. But that part of me that fights between the world of LLs (my love) and cake eating (my ego) struggles with this. At times I feel like telling her I don't want the interaction so just please drop and run or you get up 15 mins earlier and take them to school please. I guess neither option would be in the best interests of the kids so I won't do either and, also, in a few years time the kids will no doubt have a different routine so I will stand firm and just listen and validate using the opportunity to connect but also exPlain, where I feel the need and where appropriate tell her I don't need the advice (I.e that the physics of toothbrushing was day 1 on my 4 year honours degree prior to my 2 other professional qualifications)......arrrgh. Ha ha.
Surfer.
I will restate my belief that W's LL are not to be messed with at this point, mainly because you have not detached enough. You are not doing anything wrong, detachment simply takes time to achieve. It took me the better part of a year after BD to do this. The main problem is that you still link your actions to W's reactions, and vice versa, so you build all sort of expectations and when these are not met, you fell in the dumps...
Now to address your questions:
1. She is still bossing you around. I understand your frustration, I would just take over the kids when she brings them over in the driveway and immediately say my goodbyes and "dump" her right there and then. Simply say goodbye to the W, turn around and go with the kids inside.
2. see my point No. 1.
3. see my point No. 2.
Surfer,
I agree with Vapo, ignore, ignore, ignore! WAS/WW want things to be amicable and think they are still in charge. Some do not think they have lost anything, especially mine!
Do not give her the satisfaction of her telling you how to parent anymore.
W surprised me at the door with D6 saying whilst it's her weekend with kids she is going to offer the to me otherwise MIL will have them.
Strange.
She just shows up at your door to offer your children to you for extended periods of time?
Hi Surfer, I agree with you on the whole 'you need to do X and Y'
If she does that again, you may want to pleasantly look her in the eye and say (in assertive (not aggressive) tone). "Thanks W - I'm sure we'll be just fine - you have a good day now. Then turn and walk away.
I think there is a difference between conveying useful information - you need to pick them up at X time because Y is cancelled - and trying to control their care when they aren't with you...what she is doing sounds like the latter.
Hope this helps my friend :-)
I think I would be as frustrated as you Surfer! Hang in there Surfer and breath.... in and don't forget to breath out....
Vapo
Thanks for this. Good advice.
JimKao
I agree. However, I need to be careful as Sotto says (thanks Sotto) some of this advice is friendly and useful. Some is controlling. I think I need to work out which it is and react with a smile and nod and if controlling ('I am sure we will be just fine') if challenged i might just say. Look there's helpful and there's you appearing to exercise control in a life you gave up on. I am all for helpful info. but the latter isn't going to be accepted.
Surfer.
i might just say. Look there's helpful and there's you appearing to exercise control in a life you gave up on. I am all for helpful info. but the latter isn't going to be accepted.
What is the goal if you say this? I think she is aware she is being controlling so this most likely will spiral into an argument. This is kind of open ended. I think Sotto's suggested response is best. It is not open to argument and puts a healthy boundary in place. Your W does nto appear interested in your opinion or POV presently. she is actively critical of everything you say and do. By engaging in a "discussion" ie., argument, you are playing by her rules again.
Lately I have literally walked away from my WH when he starts to pull me into an argument. Historically I've always tried to explain myself which he interpreted as being argumentative. My end goal is to be able to disagree with my WH without arguing or fighting. Right now he is not ready to honestly consider my POV so I walk away after letting him know I need space, this leaves him to work it out by himself and I am not to blame.
Surfer:
I've really enjoyed your experiment. I too have been wondering about appealing to W's LL. It does tie in with my DB coach's advice to rebuild the friendship.
My understanding about the LL is that one person is supposed to act in response to the other person's LL.
For the last couple of weeks W has been performing her main LL to the boys and I - Acts of service. After not letting her perform the tasks she used to perform i.e. computer help, sewing, etc. She has taken it upon herself to help in the house a little. She cleaned the bathroom, helped with dishes - as we are without laundry due to the basement reno - she has done the laundry for us.
I've been distant but genuine when expressing thanks. I've expected nothing and will continue to do that.
So Surfer et al. How does one build a friendship via utilizing her LL - acts of service?
Any thoughts are welcomed - sorry for the hijack.
Sara,
I think you are correct re: my response. Need to be carefully to engender just positive talk.
Re: your sitch, I had exactly that experience. He may try and pull you into an argument. You can only listen, validate or walk away. I found if walking away it was important to say, this is it working right now I am not ignoring you I just want us both to be able to talk through this properly. It's very tricky this stuff. One thing I never did was to ask "how can we talk about this so it works for you, because right now this isn't working for me, it's making me feel.....etc" not sure if that would work as I never tried it.
Surfer.
Bigybiz
So Surfer et al. How does one build a friendship via utilizing her LL - acts of service?
I am not sure 100% I am also doing something that is a little "off piste" to the traditional DB approach. I should in theory wait until totally detached or even wait for W to suffer some genuine loss whilst I wait in Limbo. So what I have been doing is trying to stay NC, but when she phones me I listen and validate but when validating I also add in affirmation (LL no. 1). So I might say that's a really good way of looking at that, you are really clear on that thank you - typically I will do this when W explains what she thinks about sitch. with kids etc. In terms of AoS (LL no 2) I will offer things that help. So if W is really stressed and has no time to sort out certain things, I will offer - to take S to football etc. With services to help it's always followed by lots of thank you's. I personally think if they your W is thanking you she is telling you that you are pushing the right buttons. If she is upset with you for something - it's the wrong button. So what have I done recently:
- offering to drop S's glasses to him at school
- taking S to football
- turning up to swimming to help W get kids changed and to watch
- taking kids to school and having them overnight to give W a break when she phoned in tears as she was unwell, even offered to drop some dinner over
This all sounds uncomfortable in terms of DB as it borders on pursuit. I am mindful of this and try to do little practical things.
W went away with g/f's this weekend and kids stayed with MIL. They chose to so they have been happy - I did some GAL. Spoke to W when she was driving back as i wanted to let her know there has been a report of dangerous weather. Literally phoned and told her just that and asked if she has had a nice time. Then said goodbye. It didn't feel like we would have a long conversation (W knows I don't like her going where she went with her wayward friends - as its where she met OM) so she might have been a bit aloof due to that - IDK, IDC. But I suspect That much of the waywardness has fallen away now so I am watching myself so I don't react to any negative fear based emotions that are most likely unfounded. However, the convo when she travelled there was very long 45mins and happy/jokey. This might be as she is 'escaping' perhaps she feels empowered when doing this (again IDK IDC) but she was certainly talking in a fun and respectful way so I take this as a bonus. Also recently asked if I wanted anything to eat, coffee etc last time I popped in to W's house with kids after helping at swimming. This is really a big move and there's lost of eye contact so that's also a bonus.
This might not work, but I am 100% sure our R has improved. It does seem that when I provide relatively small AoS she responds. FIL is big on AoS and I think it means a lot to W. She often complained of me not 'hearing', as 'she didn't matter' etc.
Also, I have bought the 5 LLs of children book. I am going to read it then give it to W. It will be a gift she will accept and will give us something to read and talk about - we take about the kids a lot. It might help me to further understand W's LLs - I am assuming them at present.
I guess my approach is to be the kind of man my W would be mad to D. I know these things work for her. Being there to talk when she wants to and AoS. Other than that I am NC.
The tricky part is doing such things without any expectations. In truth I do sometimes get a little disappointed but I quickly balance this out and move on to feeling as detached as possible.
Surfer.
WRONG! Your R has not improved. As of BD, you have no R. IMO calling her about the weather was a mistake and a clear act of pursuit. Gifts for her? Mistake. It will only appease her that you have come to terms with the separation and you will mistakenly believe that you are reconciling. Tread carefully buddy, it is a slippery parth you are walking. I wish you all the best with the experiments, but I am sorry to say that you remind me sooooo much of myself. I too have tried this approach and it blew up in my face. First off all I wasn't even beginning to detach, second I firmly believed that she will see my love and realize the error of her ways. I invited her for morning coffee before work and she did come. I was a hot flaming mess and I mistakenly thought that we were slowly drifting together but in fact she was screwing the other guy the whole time. That's why I am sharing my story to hopefully dissuade someone from making my mistakes that delayed my detaching and healing. I reckon I lost at least 6 months on this futile endeavour. I snooped like a champ, I was a mess, my 2 small kids did not have the dad they deserved for a year at least and heaven only knows what damage as done to them through all of this.
Another things that just jumped out at me from your last answer. Do not be her "friend, pal, buddy", do not let her unload her problems on you, she fired you from the position, remember. If you are not careful, you might even end up being her shoulder to cry when she will have OM problems (and she will). WTF?!? Do you really want to listen to her OM problems?
Well anyhow, these are my 2 cents, you do what you feel would work. After all you know your W best...
Good luck...
Vapo,
Appreciate it all. I am 99.99% sure there is no OM. I am also sure it ended a long time ago. IDK - I can't prove it but I can still read her very much.
No of course I don't want to be her 'friend'. But acting friendly is different. I can see you drawing parallels but I am 100% sure she appreciates AoS. Glasses etc. I am not doing these very frequently so I am not too stressed about it really. Just being decent when we talk.
Not sure what to say about coming to terms with the S. I have. I don't want this but I have to accept where we are for now. She may never come back and unless she does the necessary work I don't want her back as it will just blow up again.
Not really worried about all this to the same degree as you. Perhaps I have conveyed a man hell bent on being hearts and flowers. Not at all, just making sure our interactions are positive.
My BD Coach even advised my Acts of Service should include things like taking her to the airport even though it felt like she was abandoning kids and me etc. I draw the line at thar now but when I did do that before our interactions were very good. It helped us. I do feel all this cake eating prevention approach might be a little ego based if we are not careful, so I do think there is a need to be careful.
Just going to take it steady and monitor the results.
Surfer.
Best of luck to you buddy, I am really rooting for you. I will refrain from voicing my opinion as not to mess with your mojo.
But I will be watching your thread closely and monitor the resuls...
Hmm, Surfer - remember we talked about subtle and occasional here? I'll always defer to a DB coach, but I would urge caution with the whole LL's thing and I certainly wouldn't get your W the book. She may well see right through what you are trying to do and feel it is manipulative....subtle and occasional is best I think.
There is no magic bullet here, including the 5LLs....
Sotto, I had thought that. I want to read it however. I am going not going to give her a copy. I will keep it to myself and just be informed so I can make sure the kids feel secure.
In terms of subtle and occasional, W has been back 2 days. I have been total NC and even have not said hello in the morning when she has dropped kids - as she has been late.
I have to text to her later though as kids want me to go to along to swimming and I am going to try and make it. I will just be pleasant then and do whatever the kids need me to do.
Surfer.
I have been experimenting with LL's. Just observing what happens when I offer AoS and WoA (W's LL's, I believe). I am going to sit back see what happens. I don't predict much in fairness.
W has just come back from her 40th with her wayward friends. Massive gaggle of girls all dressed identically being drunk. Not ideal but it's a (very) regular thing for them. It's certainly not my cup of tea.
I think I am starting to realise, I am probably very different to my W and perhaps, I put up with things because I truly loved her. I still love her as a person, but I don't have the same feelings for her 'attraction', wanting to 'be with' her. Sometimes I do, but it's fading and it worries me a little. I guess that is detaching. I miss her as she was, but I don't miss her now if that makes sense. I am generally really quite happy however.
I guess I am saying that my feelings are changing for her.
I watched a film called "The Story of Us" at the weekend. It's about a couple in a similar sitch. Bruce Willis is a 'one up' that becomes a 'one down' and moves out. Very similar. He agrees to the D and his W switches back to the R. All very nice and it would be nice, but I expect this may never happen. I am not even sure I want it anymore TBH.
W has not even been within 20 ft of me last 2 days when dropping kids. I like this as it means I don't have to put up with her telling me how to do something that is frankly simple.
W looked a bit frazzled this AM. She went to an event last night with family to raise money in the name of a young relative that died tragically. She took kids. I expect that this is hitting her hard but I don't think I should raise this. D9 said I am surprised you did not go D. I said I was not invited. D9 said M must have forgotten. I said, no darling, she perhaps wanted to go without me. Bless her. Both kids really want us to get back together. But I think we may well be reaching the point of no return. I am losing my love for my W. Her loss for definite.
On a separate point, I spoke to L last week. She suggested that we need to get some traction. As we are in Limbo - as W does not need to do anything or does not know what to do. We discussed a letter that says "can we please be advised what is happening after a history of X, we seem to be left in limbo and this is not good for the kids or me, also we need to sort custody formally....". I asked L to give me time to think about this as we have had some good interactions recently - and this may set the cat amongst the pigeons. But I am also kind of thinking - hey whats the harm. I am still not going to deliver a D and she can do the heavy lifting etc.
Any thoughts welcome.
Surfer.
Working from home. W just called to see if I have a sports top of S6's I said yes I will leave it outside the house in a bag for you. That way there is no need to see her. I don't want her temp checking etc. Told her kids want me to go to watch swimming today. Said I might if I get what I need to get done finished. I have every faith I can and will go but I wanted her to know so she does not spew that I turned up unannounced on her time.
She may ask me in or kids may. If the kids do I will and will just focus on them I think. If she offers polite conversation I will respond nicely but then head when I know the kids are happy for me to go.
If I don't get an invite for either, I won't request one.
Surfer.
As it happens swimming was good. Kids were very happy I went. W was quite frosty with me but nice with her friend that was there. I was in a great mood and her mood didn't bother me at all - just observed. Helped get kids dry and made them laugh. They wanted to drive back with me but W said no. This means here is no OM as she would have used the time to talk to him no doubt. D9 said Mummy is grumpy I don't know why. I said well we're not are we and made her laugh. Kids are looking forward to staying tonight. I am going by to spoil them with lots of love and fun and lovely food.
W seems to be cycling now. I think she is starting to feel the consequences of her actions - pressure of being a single mum etc. Her choice however. She seems to really struggle with the pressures of normal life at the best of times. When leaving after swimming she was voicing dispair at the kids being difficult and with her not being in a great place mentally - she isnt st her best. She is also run down after a hard weekend of partying no doubt. When I was leaving she said something like "it's not fair this" - not sure what she said exactly TBH or who she was saying it to. Me, kids, herself. I just said "oh dear, well I had better dash back, kids be good for mummy, see you tomorrow evening etc". I felt happy to be getting away from my W and her moody victim role. Poor kids could not and I felt for them.
So, W's dropped of D for piano lessons. All fine and happy will drop S soon and I will make the meal they requested, we will cuddle and then watch TV, bath time then bed, ready for school in the morning. All normal life but no W. Weird. I have come to accept it.
When W came to the door to drop she asked me not to give D any treats as she was naughty. I said I don't need to punish her, you should deal with that I have not been involved (D was ignoring W). W said I need your support on these things. I said okay I will talk to her. D said W was in another room and she could not hear her, I asked if she explained this and she said I can't because mummy is always shouting. I am going to pass this back to my W as info. as she just does not listen, she does communicate poorly also etc.
Other than that I have zero news to journal. Early meeting, gym, work all good really quite happy. 6 Months into DB and I feel very relaxed about things. No attachment at all no resentment etc.
Surfer.
So it seems we are entering a phase of co-parenting. NC unless about kids. Its amicable and kind generally although W is having little bits of cycling. I don't seem to be at all. What now. I can predict everything that happens up to now but.....not sure what's next?
Just limbo it seems.
Surfer.
She's in limbo, not you. You have the gift of time to build yourself up, to make yourself fascinating and irresistible. What are your hobbies? What was your zen before meeting your W?
Sara
Ha ha. I see your advice and mine is similar. It's good advice - thank you (and yes, she is definitely in limbo but perhaps does not see that). I will take it is me moving on. Funny how you don't see things so clearly when it's you that's involved - or certainly I don't. Ha ha.
BTW - bought the LRT downloads after reading your comments on this. Nothing 'new' as such in this but definitely with it. MWD is rather amazing I must admit.
I need to GAL in a different way I think Sara. I have always been a family, work, gym and beers with the boys kind of guy. The gym has to stay - did 2 x 5ks this week but have been really lazy!!! I need to get off my backside! Work is work and I actually enjoy it more if I get up and get to the gym for 6am so I really need to do that on Monday. If I do this, I can be home to collect kids when they get dropped, do the school run and feel amazing when at my desk by 8am. Got kids this weekend so no fitness other than I will take them swimming on Sunday and will bike ride or play in the garden!
I need to cut down on the beers. I do struggle on that front as I tam he to have a glass of wine or two or beers most days and it's not good. My waistline needs a fighting chance and the extra calories, sitting at a PC all day and not getting to the gym are taking their toll. That being said I have 5 lunches and drinks in the diary for the next 3 weeks already so there will be no escape soon. Whilst this is GAL it's also work. Great restaurants/bars but again that waistline.....oh dear. Best start as I mean to go on and hit the gym on Monday.
Besides this I am going to try and find something fo me. I like reading, things like DB/DR have helped also this forum too. I also meditate as and when. App based stuff. However I want to get into something. I want to take the kids skiing soon so I might work on some lessons fo them and me. I had thought about salsa lessons but TBH - it's not me.
Invited to a squash night be it clashed with kids swimming lessons. So will have to see.
How about you? How do you GAL?
Surfer.
Journaling.
Picked up kids from W last night. She was staying in and tidying. We were both happy, relaxed and joking. She suggested I may want to take kids to Xmas market today - she is helping out there. MWD suggests in her LRT videos that if there is an offer for family time take it. Forget the cake eating (W seeing them on my weekends etc) as that is ego talking. Turn the volume down on ego is the answer I am sure.
Surfer.
Surfer,
can you provide the link to the video for the family time?
Thanks,
Vapo,
Would love to but I think there are Copyright issues with doing that. There is a deal on to buy it.
Basically MWD says any invites for family time should be taken up (I presume where this works for you)!
Surfer.
Surfer, this is a MWD site, so if you link a MWD video, I think we'll be fine...
The reason I am asking is because it goes contrary to the general idea, to try to shatter the idea of a family life when it suits the W and off frolicking when it is her "single" time. I am an all or nothing kind of guy.
Again, I might have the wrong idea here. A couple of weeks ago I entered a photo contest and I got an award, I told my kids and they were very excited for me, told the W and she as totally into it, how we should ALL go to the awards ceremony and what not... I was in shock. I was like WAIT, YOU FIRED ME FROM THE H POSITION 2 YEARS AGO AND YOU EXPECT TO DO FAMILY THINGS NOW?!?
Luckily I came down with the flu and could not attend...
My ex and I basically raised our first and only child from infancy as a divorced couple with an A involved. So family time was always tricky ad. We worked it to work for all of us so I'll share what has worked for us.
Family time is not something I ever chose to think of as a DB "tactic" for saving a marriage. Family time to me, is well, family time. Does t matter if I was fired from the wife position, or what have you. If I felt comfortable and it benefitting our daughter, I partake. Being a new parent an going through a lot of firsts, I didn't want to miss out much. So we always took her to see Santa together. When she was 2 we brought her to sesame place together. We have a meal every now and then together. We spend her birthday together, the 3 of us.
If you feel as if it is a positive thing for your child do it. If you feel like you can't emotionally make it about them only at the time, don't do it.
I do not agree with MWD personally about her family time DB strategy. It's something to personal and it involves kids feelings.
I suggest you make your calls based on your kids first, and second, if you feel like its to DB, not because you or your kids want it, then I would decline the invite
Surfer: Thanks for bringing this up. I've been very confused by this too i.e. cake eating vs. letting them experience what they will be missing. Being the best you and letting them wish they were still with us makes lots of sense - so does engaging them.
Over the last couple of weeks I've been trying to do both. My W has been offering to help around the house and we are neck deep in a long overdue renovation. She has helped with laundry and a few other items.
I realize that if I try and engage her she will smell something foul. So I'm going to try and be open/positive and follow her lead. Anything else may be pursuing and/or she may feel it's a trap.
Ginger could be right family time could be fine with the original family. On the other hand, if a new family will be formed in X years - maybe we need to get ready for it?
Ahhhhh, but I'm 9 years in, and my ex has married his affair partner. So family time is truly about our child together. Not about us as husband and wife. And his W I believe understands. I mean, she really can't say much. when she chose to enter our marriage when I was pregnant, she'd be an assssss to complain about the family time.
That's why I fully be,I've the family to,e shouldn't be about the couple, but about the kids.
Ginge I agree 100%. But when my ex suggested that we all go to my awards ceremony, that really surprised me... Nope, that's my thing and that you have no part of...
The way I interpret MWD's video on family time is two fold.
First, it builds the connection of family again. No expectations whether it will be positive for the R or M, but it will be positive for the kids.
Second, it may or may not cause a strain between the OM/OW and the WAS. Again no expectations, but a bonus for the LBS if it does.
Ginge I agree 100%. But when my ex suggested that we all go to my awards ceremony, that really surprised me... Nope, that's my thing and that you have no part of...
Exactly. That was for HER, not you or the kids. ANd it was your special day, and it should be done how it would make YOU feel comfortable.
Kids awards ceremonies are another story.
Hey, in the beginning of my mess, we had family time which came with expectations and hopes from ME. It was an awful roller coaster for me. I was inviting him by for dinner hoping that having the family connection would bring feelings back. It didn't work that way.
The only thing that got me through this in a healthy way was focusing on how anything is beneficial for the kid, and to make sure I took US out of the equation.
MY GAL is rather boring but it brings me comfort and happiness. I love reading and my idea of a fantastic weekend is burning through a book or two. However working my hours as well as raising three young children has curtailed this sharply. I also like watching sci-fi movies, hanging out with my cousin/best friend and going to nice restaurants. I actually love having deep conversations with friends (and previously WH) and that's why I became a mental health provider. I notived I was trying to GAL by doing things others enjoyed, finally I admitted to myself that my enjoyment is more type B stuff. And I am okay with that.
I like the MWD videos, I think it gives good, concrete, solution based help. My biggest problem is patience. I think my motto should be, "Dear God, please give me patience and give it NOW!"
Surfer, I agree on taking the family time where it's available. The kids didn't choose any of this and I think the consistency helps them. It may or may not fix your M, but it should only help in building the co-parenting skills should they be needed.
I know what you're going through bud. We do our family time and it's awkward sometimes and great others. Having more greats lately, which is good, but it can be quite strange still. I find it best to just grit my teeth and push forward when W is off kilter during family time.
For the GAL stuff, know that I stole your skiing idea above! Going to book a ski day for D and I so she can learn. Youre always full of great ideas bud!
I know I haven't been around much as of late, but I'm still pulling for you man! Hang in there brother!
Dear all (LT, Ginger, BB, Sara, Vapo; et al),
So many interesting comments. Vapo, I had to pay extra subscription for the video (not sure $70 or so - hence the point). I don't want to cheese off "le grande fromage"! I will dig out what MWD say's and try to contextualise it. But in essence I believe it was more 1. Detach, GAL become you and happy. 2. Don't chase. 3. If she comes to you with Family Time stuff - do it.
I think there is the distinction generally though, as made earlier, that kids didn't ask for this so family time should be made - to keep them secure. I know in the early days I used FT to chase - to try and hold us together. This pursuit was not good. WW refused FT - point blank - in a bad way!! FT has been suggested since, but I have no expectations. I may never be suggested again - and was it anyway?
The fact is though, the suggestion she came up with would have okay but D9 and S6 were playing happily so I left them to decide. They said they didn't want to go - S6 changed his mind too late but hey never mind. So we didn't go and I am good with that. I am sure W is too.
I think the whole point of all this when you boil it down is stop giving a fig what your WS thinks. Focus on you. Become who you are, who you were. If they make attempts to R then okay, consider it. Otherwise, move forward. Let everyone around you see who you really are. Be there for you and your kids and do the FT for your Kids if you are asked, if you are not asked or it doesn't work, have FT as you and kids without WS. Okay its different, but if you give them enough love and attention, they really will be fine and they will remember what you did for them all of their lives.
Surfer.
Been a good W/end. About to take the kids swimming then getting a bit dressed up for dinner (they are presently in playing clothes). We are going out for food I have decided. Spent much of the weekend making and painting things - from castles to pom pop snowmen, making food, playing football in the garden etc.
They are very happy children. This is my job done. I will drop them tonight without going in or having a word with W tonight and will see them in the morning to take them to school. Then tomorrow I have a very swanky business lunch in the City, with a client I really get on with - hopefully I won't end up too boozy - got lots to do!!! Either way I will treat it as a mini GAL activity.
Surfer.
Swimming done, kids fed at our fave restaurant. Dropped them totally happy. No communication at all with W. Stayed in the car as I saw them hug her at the door. I left smiling as they were.
How sad I feel for the WS. They really have no idea I am sure. I hope you can all find the strength you need to go through your own difficulties. Dig deep my friends.
Surfer.
Surfer, you're doing so great! I think no expectations of the ws really does help. The last few days wh has been texting to say if he could come over. I told him sure, and every time he has bailed. I haven't even flinched, hasn't bothered me because I expect nothing of him.
I love hearing how much of a great dad you are to those kids. I bet they are so excited to see you and get your undivided attention and have some fun.
Keep it up amigo
Thanks Cherry. It's good to spend time having fun. Don't get me wrong I can be grumpy dad too when won't listen etc but that's part of being a parent.
I guess he's temp checking. Pay no mind.
Find your happy place.
Surfer.
Vapo,
I found the bit on Family Time - sorry its taken a while. She says don't pursue 'family time' but if offered jump at it. Because:
- kids etc are the thing that keeps families together often
- FT remind the WS of what is important (obv. must be fun!!)
- AP can't have real FT as they are not a parent, they never will be
- doing more and more FT things brings you together
- forget cake eating on this
I hope that helps.
Surfer.
Interesting. I'l have to think on it...
Thank you for this information.
V
You're an inspiration, Surfer! You appear to be really embracing the way of lovingly detaching. I am proud of you and your kids are blessed to have you as their stable dad.
Thank you Sara.
Very kind words. I appreciate them - mmmm perhaps my LL is WoA after all....:)
Surfer.
Not much to report. W is being nice. Validating a bit. I am happy but not really too concerned. I still think of her but I don't miss her. I still love her but I don't long for her. Kids are happy I am happy.
Went to swimming to see kids on Tuesday and W was chatty and nice. She started getting stressed when trying to get them dressed. I helped. She talked after mostly about how she felt (ill etc) - outside I validated, inside I said 'meh'.
She has been a bit more chatty last few days. Fair bit of eye contact. She offers advice and I say, don't worry about that, it's covered. Have a good day.
I sense she is turning corner. Once when she realises all strings have been but and she is floating out there alone things might be dark. When the financial string is gone. I think it will be frightening for her. I don't want her frightened but I think it will be. No OM at the moment 99.9% sure and no H wanting her back right now. Not ideal when you are wrong side of 40 with 2 kids even non wayward supermodels might struggle.
Time and karma will deliver a change of heart I am sure. I just wonder whether I will have moved on by then. I hope not for the kids and us.
Still playing optimistic but I have zero expectations.
Surfer.
So nothing to report really. Just working, GAL, pretty detached. Still get the odd pang of missing W but I'm okay with it. It passes. I see her pretty much every day on the kids drop. Interactions are generally good. Today a little jokey. Sometimes just passes on info. rarely enforcing obvious views or providing parenting advice. Which is wise from her perspective as she just comes across badly when she does this. Whilst there is some form of WW behaviour W seems far more respectful now. So I thought I would reflect a little.
Whilst I don't want anyone else in my life right now but I do miss the company of someone I'd like to share hopes and dreams with. I do sometimes wonder what she might look like, be like. In a way, it would be good if this person is my W but IDK if I really can accept that so I will just have this as a nice to have that may or may not happen (subject to her changing and me accepting that change) I think.
I am mindful that I need some goals however as we have a slight hiatus, which is comfortable but change will inevitably come from this - albeit I expect it will. E slow. I am also mindful that if I "aim at nothing I will but it every time". My goals for now revolve around tiny improvement in our R (for the benefit of us all - this may of course benefit our M but that may also end in D, either way I can accept that). So to set my goals I thought I would consider that which have we achieved. Kind of looking back to see what has worked. Our changes have brought:
- civility not rage (from W) - time and space provided this (going dark)
- eye contact, not avoidance - acting as if helped here after sufficient 'dark' time
- smiles and laughs, not looks filled with hatred - again acting as if helped here
- a more balanced personality (rather than W looking mentally ill), I am also more balanced, I don't try to control the outcome so. Using Ws LL (WoA) help here. NOTE: these are used sparingly, sincerely and only in response as part of validation.
Much - going dark, acting as if and detaching all helped.
- discussions that last an hour at times (rare, mostly brief interchanges) - only contacting W to talk about kids is good for this. I make these discussions happen at a time in the day where W is usually better at talking ie If she talks a lot, I listen, if not that's fine too.
- no rollercoaster riding. I haven't really done any rollercoaster riding or spinning for a while - detachment is key here.
- no spew. W does not do this anymore. Previously, everything was my fault. She was weapons hot on spew. Always ready to pounce. I was always there to play whipping boy or combatant. I stopped accepting either role - boundaries and detachment. This stopped the 'game'. If the game was initiated again now I would end it. This is what I used to do prior to all this. The sitch we all end up in breeds anxiety through fear of loss (due to attachment) anxiety and decision making are poor bed fellows. When you are in this state you being drawn into dramatic interactions is common. It is very dangerous.
So where can this go? The R could improve to the point M survives and thrives. Alternatively it could take a course to D (possibly somewhere in between).
Any further R improvements are likely to be slow and steady and brought about by behavioural changes. Picking up on those things my W complained about including listening more (fulfilling LL requirements), being "there", letting her know that she matters etc will be key. So that will be my focus. Dropping bad habits (I am a social smoker - I am also very sociable) so stopping the cigarettes when drinking and cutting down on the drink to twice a week would be good - my work involves lots of socialising and the industry is male dominated so I will have to be careful in my work arrangements and my own social life. This I need to do for me, intact all of these changes I want to do for me. They will make me more rounded and happier in myself.
The point here is slow and steady. As you can't reach out to a WS, a MLCer (who is withdrawing) to let them know you care or they matter. It has the opposite effect. So I think all you can do is be the lighthouse and throw the odd WoA or AoS (etc) and see what happens.
So my goals are therefore slow and steady changes to work on me as above for me dealing with those things I feel the need to improve. I am going to spend time listening to my W and letting her tell me what she wants to and ensure she knows I am interested - I am but I don't want her to think I am not (I have been guilty of switching off in the past, apologies ladies most guys do this).
We are in the process of talking about Christmas arrangements etc so this will be a good time to listen.
Something is improving. W recently asked if I wanted to go to kids school play at same time or separate. I take this as an invitation (she is getting the tickets) and her being open to going together. Previously she wanted it all to be separate. Something I am doing is working clearly. I have also noted she is sharing how she feels. If only telling me she feels ill, stressed or whatever. Before she was so angry she could not.
I also noted at kids swimming this week, she approached me to talk. Previously I would be the one to break the silence. I just sat beside her and said how's it going (the swimming) then nothing and she starting flowing with how the kids were doing etc. We were sat really close. And she didn't flinch. Before she would have recoiled or moved.
There are lots of little things that are hapenning. I just wanted to share my thoughts so I can recognise 'our' progress (my W is making significant changes too). This will help me and can help others to see that from the horror story of BD comes a much, much happier place if you stick at it.
Surfer.
Firstly that has to be one of the longest "nothing to report" that I have ever read!!!
You repeatedly mentioned "slow and steady". For you these are good synonyms for PATIENCE and CONSISTENCY. So for you yes to slow and steady.
For your W maybe that is too much to expect. Yes it will be slow but absolutely nothing says it will be steady. It often isn't. I think it is great that you see so many changes for the better. It is good.MMaybe it is a thawing of her WASness or maybe she is justc comfortable with the status quo. For W TIME and SPACE
are probably more suitable adjectives to consider.
Positive signs are always welcome and definitely beat negative ones. But they are just signs subject to interpretation. You have mentioned your detachment and acceptance but I get a sence that those expectations are higher than you state and higher than they should be, for your sake.
Little 2x4 over. Your goals do seem very much so in synch with Michelle's books. I for one believe you should work towards a better R rather than away from a bad one. In other words focus on what you want rather than dwell on what you don't have. I have not mastered that yet but it is a work in progress.
Without knocking anyone, many believe standing for your M is enough.But it is only by taking positive actions towards that goal, can it be achieved. Each time I think of giving up I remind myself that I haven't tried everything or done everything I can. Keep on doing
Thanks Roist. Yes rather wordy and on my iphone! I think I probably needed a chat!!
I would like to think W is changing - but I am not entirely sure I must admit.
Working towards a the best R makes sense. At times I think I am going to smash this process, win the W back and it will all be perfect. However, I realise this is all attachment and I need to be careful to stay clear of all this as I don't ever want to feel like that again (attached and unwanted). So yes you are right in what you sense. There is a little more attachment than I convey at times - perhaps I am trying to convince myself I am doing better than I am. Albeit I am certainly getting there.
Like you I also have thoughts of giving up, speaking my mind in a way that will cause a storm but hey that's just how you feel. It's part of being human. I have become extremely adept (comparatively with Surfer V1) at separating my feelings and my actions and taking an appropriate stance rather than a reactive one. When I feel like packing up and moving on I think of my kids and what else I want. I also rationalise my W's behaviour and feelings much more than Surfer V1 did.
Surfer (V2).
Fairly, urgent advice required!!!
Just had the 1st Christmas conversation (Part 1) with my W. You can tell it's a difficult subject when you need a pre-talk prior to the talk itself.
So we have a rota. I see them say 30% of the time. It's not enough. But equally 50% will take getting used to etc. The rota works for now. This is work in progress.
We are getting on better and whilst MWD does tell you to park your ego on the LRT, my ego has just twitched.
Told my W kids are here christmas eve and christmas day as per rota. But said I think we need to talk as kids need to have the Christmas THEY want, regardless of us (i.e. your selfishness).
Been trying to talk all week (apparently - although W has not called me - hence me calling her). To date we are still not organised. W is thinking drop kids and she can pick up on Boxing Day. Kids will want us both around (D9 said can't mummy just stay - she has said this to us both; I'm cool with whatever they want). W can't stay its too much.
I don't know whether just to say - fine. Stick with you seeing them Boxing Day etc. I want to say, stay you will be fine. But that's not going to work for W - she has suggested this is too much so that is accepted.
Whilst I know deep down I'd love us to be closer (detachment slipping there!!!! need to get that in check), I also don't want her back as she is - deep down. Also, whilst I want to do something that feels 'family like' for the kids I am just not seeing her making steps towards that "something" (attachment again, I know - as this is in part for me also; yet I don't want her as is...meh!).
In short, not really sure what to suggest. We have had the pre-talk about the talk (scheduled for tomorrow). I know her staying is off the cards. But I would like her to move come up with something so she gets to see the kids more over the course of Christmas and they do her. There is no guarantee that this will be reciprocated of course but, hey.
I did wonder about all just going out for a meal. But if I suggest this it might come across as chasing etc. Also, I don't want anyone to feel awkward.
I was wondering about saying. "Let's leave it that I will pick up on Christmas Eve and you will pick up on Boxing Day. If you have any other thoughts let me know."
Not sure who to handle this....any ideas anyone....?
Surfer.
Surfer:
Many of us are in the same boat. Wanting to give our kids as good a Christmas as possible, wanting to "attract" our spouse in, and needing to be strong/detached,etc.
My $0.02.
Stick to the rotation. Any compromise could end up in cake eating or you giving up something with little benefit to you and/or the kids.
If W wants to give up some of "her time" then be flexible and cooperative. I personally think there is a fine line between the kids being punished and them seeing what the reality of Separation/Divorce is.
If she is not calling/responding it leads me to the conclusion that she is not as flexible/willing as you are.
Based on your wordings I would not pursue it any further. Whatever happens keep the kids for all the time scheduled. Say you are open to her seeing them on Christmas day, but make no suggestions.And say it ONCE.
Best wishes
Yes, I would presume the current dates stand, unless your W requests something other than that.
I think the best thing is to focus on having a nice Xmas with the kids and creating some new memories this year. I'm sure your W will make her own plans with them on Boxing Day.
And if she suggests something different, you can always consider that and respond.
Thank you BB roist and sotto.
I will stick with the plans. So we will be talking later. I am going to keep them here on Xmas Day and Boxing Day and have them 50% of the holidays. I think first half last half of the break is a little harsh. For W and the kids. TBH it's all new to me and I am trying to work something out that makes the kids feel very warm and connected. I also don't want W to miss their magical Christmas times. They are only 6 and 9. I had hoped she would be happy to get together with us - I guess she just will not or can not play happy families for their sakes. I kind of understand this but it's Christmas and they are children. I just find her so selfish with this. I am not letting her know I feel this way of course. IDK. I just need to accept it and focus on giving the kids the best time.
I need to make plans and let her hover around them rather than the other way around.
Surfer.
Surfer...you need to learn and practice daily the art of detatching...
We will chat soon....
You appear stuck in the same spot for much time...
There is progress to be had...
Seek out James Allen and Head belief versus heart beleif...
A man is the sum total of all that he thinks...and habitually says...actions are the building blocks of habits...
Which is getting more attention from you?
Finding it tricky. It's the weekend I need to unpack Christmas. In doing so I am seeing unwritten cards to My Husband. Every box brings a new memory and it's really hurting. It's all very well trying to detach but this first Christmas is really tough.
It's the only weekend I can get the house ready for Christmas. W recently suggested she wants some of the Christmas things. I don't know what these things are so I am going to press on regardless - I can't wait around forever for her to get organised. I am not having the house feel as if there is no Christmas. I want the kids to be blown away when I see them on Monday. I hope she doesn't feel it is fair to just turn up like a team of locusts and strip our home of all the Christmas cheer......I am a bit anxious about all of this. I think it's because Christmas was always special to me. It was 'the' family time. Best of the best. Now I fear it if I am honest.
Surfer.
I'm sorry about the Christmas memories. I've been avoiding it also and not sure if I'm getting them out this year.
Hang in there!! The kids will bring joy
I have unpacked a lot of the Christmas things. It's hard. There's lots more to do. It's so sad. Missing your loved ones at this time of year.
Bsb. Thanks for posting. I read your initial sitch. I am sorry for your loss and pain I I know that feeling too sadly. Many of us do here.
I am facing my demons and getting Christmas going. I have been one to run from my fears before. The fear of confrontation in an emotional way. It paralyses me to hear the tears of the ones I love. It terrifies me. I want to fix them but I can't. It leaves me helpless lost and frightened. I have learned though that to win in such difficult times you have to confront your fears. To face your demons. My current fear of Christmas, if not confronted, will become and omnipresent annual fear if if do not face it. I have therefore chosen to face it. Confront it. Deal with it and enjoy it. Yes I am hurting badly now. But that will go. I will make Christmas happy. I will focus on giving my love to my Children and my family and friends. Half way through the decorations. I will get there. Try not to fear it my friend. Do what you need to do to make it special. For you.
Surfer.
Surfer...you need to learn and practice daily the art of detatching...
We will chat soon....
You appear stuck in the same spot for much time...
There is progress to be had...
Seek out James Allen and Head belief versus heart beleif...
A man is the sum total of all that he thinks...and habitually says...actions are the building blocks of habits...
Which is getting more attention from you?
You sound to be focused on the sad, fear, and worry of all of this...
Where are your thoughts on the opportunities, new beginnings , and unconditional love you can provide for your family?
Heart belief versus Head belief...
Actions versus words...
Self care versus codependency...
Progress versus standing still...
The moment versus the fortune telling of the future...
Surfer...what actions and work are you doing to build yourself into a better, stronger emotionally healthy man?
Much lamenting still happening in your posts...
I challenge you to practice what you preach.
Much power in doing so...it shows heart beleif when you do.
My prayers and thoughts are with you that you may find peace and experience your awakening...so that you can create the man that not only a fool will walk away from, but the man that will attract that which he becomes.
Thanks SH.
Pity party over. It's tricky. I am sure we all have these wobbles. Getting back in the Saddle. Gym-bound!
1st Christmas without W and kids here. Smashed through me like a juggernaut setting the house up.
Surfer.
I went through a different sort of change in my past but can relate. When I converted to Islam I was suddenly faced with the fact that I had no Muslim family to spend my Eids with. Add to that I no longer celebrated the holidays that I previously celebrated and I was in a sort of no-mans-land. I'll be honest, I struggled to form my own traditions and only recently have been able to arrange my own traditions.
A friend of mine (who is Christian) had no local family to celebrate with. So he began the annual gingerbread house building party. He found quite a few of his friends either had no family or had family that was so toxic they might as well have no one. So he would have a slumber party at his house and they would all arrive and spend the night building gingerbread houses and well...drinking copious lubricant. :lol: Just an idea to get your brain a'rollin.
Vapo,
I found the bit on Family Time - sorry its taken a while. She says don't pursue 'family time' but if offered jump at it. Because:
- kids etc are the thing that keeps families together often
- FT remind the WS of what is important (obv. must be fun!!)
- AP can't have real FT as they are not a parent, they never will be
- doing more and more FT things brings you together
- forget cake eating on this
I hope that helps.
Surfer.
Surfer,
I agree with this.
Thanks JimKao.
I think the times they offer family time is them taking a very small step towards the family. They often blame it on the kids needing to see you or them needing to call (this is like family time in a way) - but really they are trying to convince you of this. Deep down however, you know that they know that they 'could' block a child's suggestion of family time - "perhaps later" (child forgets), "that's not going to work today becuase" (child accepts). So ultimately all FT is driven by the spouse.
Surfer.
Tricky days are gone again. But oddly back - big W spew today!
Over the last few days I have had some really good chats with W and Kids on phone on speaker in the car (I was in my car driving). W phoned me which is good.
Been GAL, out with friends on Friday, Christmas stuff and gym yesterday. Round to friends for dinner last night etc. Will go to gym and shops today.
We (me and W) need to sort things RE:Christmas. This W/end I had time to buy a tree, decorate and make the house like normal Christmas for the kids and me. It's been emotional but I am happy now. Big wobble though.
W advised she might want some special xmas things from the house. I said fine let me know. She didn't so I had to crack on and use my time wisely. Her lack of planning can't be my emergency. I often is however so this is my 180 (for me). No longer.
W said she needed some kids clothes yesterday I organised them as promised so she could collect this morning when dropping the kids. Got up extra early to finish tidying and finishing christmas decorations.
W arrived late - she would be late for work (again). Kids had the familiar (Mum's angry look but we are okay). W was behind them - on full spew mode. She saw the outside lights up, the kids came and were 'Wow Dad, this looks great'. W said I told you I wanted some things. I said yes, let me know what they are and I will sort them - you have not let me know yet. She said they are on the tree (now I am not sure if my wife has xray specs; she can not know - the tree is behind a wall....she has not seen the tree....) I say repeat, let me know what you need and I can sort that out. She is late and angry and the kids decide mummy is starting to rage and go upstairs out of the way. I am standing at the door. She says she is coming in to raid the tree. I say, that's not good for me right now as I need to get the kids to school. W starts to rage, I am coming round after work (to raid what she wants). I say look, I only had this weekend to get things sorted and I still don't know what you need. Can you let me know. W goes nuclear - I only had this weekend too.....(she has been out having fun with her friends, with them and their kids in fairness and will be 100% way off organised, no tree, decorations etc. she doesn't get on with things - making the house a home etc). I slowly close the door and say let's speak later. Like Jack Nicholson in the Shining her face appears at the letter box, red and angry. [Heeeeeere's Johnny!]. Kids its Mummy, Daddy had closed the door and I have your school bags he won't let me give you your school bags. I calmly open the door and say, can I have their bags please? She refuses and storms to the car (teenage mode). I follow her out calmly but she storms into the car and drives off in a rage (I hate to think of anyone pulling out in front of her - she is like the incredible hulk right now - she foams at the mouth goes red and looks possessed; she also looks like she has the strength of an army; weird).
I walk in and calmly talk to the kids. I explain, all is fine, mummy is just being a little ....(stressed, offer the kids - they have seen it before, many time sadly). We talk about the importance of being calm when others can not be and I explain that mummy is just sad and angry, she is not bad it's just anger and she needs to control this and calm down. I explain to them that its important to keep your cool when others are struggling but its all normal. S6 questions me putting up the decorations. I explain - being careful not to throw M under the bus. Kids get it and we talk about normal christmas stuff. D9 tells me I should feel proud of myself as I have made it look like christmas. They particularly like the disco light I bought. This is all I need to let me know I am doing the right thing.
Kids go into school happy - I tell them M will drop their bags. Didn't accept W's invite onto her roller coaster. I am proud of that at least and I feel at peace.
Excited about christmas now after my recent blip. I might have known this was coming actually. W is very disorganised, xmas will be a total shock for her, she will be a mess, she lacks the ability to deal with things I think (perhaps its the fog, she was always a 'meltdown' person though to some degree).
She has also been one that historically 'stages rages'. For example, she would want a big fall out before christmas so she could justify something (this year it could be not seeing kids, or doing something unreasonable, going away for christmas without them, blocking access). I am going to presume this won't happen and not mind read etc - but I am definitely going to lower my expectations of her.
W is not providing feedback in terms of christmas so I am going to plan it for us, traditional meal etc get me family here and also invite W and her family. I doubt she will be able to do this, so I will explain to her family that they don't need to if they feel uncomfortable etc. Kids will want them to come though.
I have texted W to say let me know what you need please and I will try to organise this.
Any comments of advice welcome.
Surfer.
The holidays sometimes bring out the worst in people, unfortunately.
I think you handled it very well, good job staying off her roller coaster.
Thanks Ginger.
W goes 'nuts' at Christmas, Birthdays etc. It's an 'I can't cope' thing.
At times I throw in the odd LL (AoS), I did this yesterday when she was talking about kids uniforms asking if I have any, 'don't fret - I have some I am sure - give me tonight and I will dig them out; no problem". All "thank you's" etc. I know AoS really work for her - but go against what she said - even what she things she said and 'kaboom'. It doesn't amuse me that this happens, as I feel for her and, in particular, the kids (although they are, sadly, used to Mummy going 'Nutsy-Cookoo' as they call it). I used to be frightened by her. She really does look unhinged. But now I just feel sorry that she can't cope. I guess she is on her rollercoaster...thing is she must like the ride, she's been doing it for years. I'm certainly not getting on it....
Surfer.
Great job of handling things! It is scary when the act like this and there is nothing you can do to change this moment. Glad you are being there for the kids during this time. Stay positive!
Thanks bsb. Yes I suppose it went okay. I just find the whole 'fog' of the WW/WAW weird at times. Very odd behaviour. It's hard to be so compassionate all the time but I try to be. I must admit, I have burst out laughing once or twice over the last few years (not often). I don't know if it's nerves or just laughing because the situation is so ridiculous at times - I don't recommend it. It will definitely not help.I just find it bizarre at times.
Anyway. Back to like observing the nosey neighbour etc.
Hope you are keeping on top of your emotions.
Surfer.
Surfer I haven't ever posted to you as in order to do so I would need to read your whole thread.
I usually adopt a newbie a week, so if it's ok with you as an established newbie, that can be you next week. It will take me that long to absort your sitch.
Have you heard of the HPA axis?
My first thoughts lie around compulsion rage, as this is so disinherited.
I have a vivid image of your WW from this last interaction which fits with some disinhibition I have learned.
This sounds like thrashing, the Giggalo used to do it.
The answer was to record it. I recorded a whole hours rant once and sent it to him. He never commented. The rants went under control.
It's emotional dysregulation.
V
Wow V,
This is really interesting. I have not heard of the HPA Axis at all but I have now. I have sped read some info just now.
Treatment - sleep (W can't sleep - hereditary), gets vast headaches (inflammation), excessive stress is a massive problem.......wow. She has always been like this to varying degrees but things really pushed on when pregnant with our first child (just read the pre-natal concerns). I really appreciate you mentioning this!!!
I did once record it. But only when we were living together. I still have the copy. It was only a 30 seconds but......
I am really looking forward to hearing from you after you have caught up. Thank you very much.
I have been at this for years and years (not DB - me, failing, then a "Marriage Fitness" course with a famous guy for a year or so IC, MC and for the last few months DB.
Whilst I don't want to give up on my W (who swings between her and the alien) or my lovely children, I am tiring a bit. I am sure there is something akin to mental illness here. Her Mum did something a little similar and her cousin (all the females) had a similar (ish) breakdown. All at that late 30's age.....not read up on the hereditary nature of this yet....
Thank you again.
Surfer.
Is this the correct checklist V?
The link seems to go to newcomers boards generally??
Surfer
Surfer, I'm going to jump in here as I've been reading your thread but not fully yet, so forgive me if this is out of place.
But now I just feel sorry that she can't cope. I guess she is on her rollercoaster...thing is she must like the ride, she's been doing it for years
This statement struck me as my exW has been on that ride, although she has had very few outward nutso moments, but they are there. Not sure they like that behavior or even recognize that they are doing things.
My ex's behavior is well-documented in the old threads so I won't go into all of it. Looking back, she did a lot of things that had me raising my eyebrows. But the thing is, she never knew she was doing it. Not in the least.
Thanks V. This is really heavy stuff. It's what I have witnessed. Been through (and am still going through to some degree) but I very much would like to understand the foundation to it. I almost don't want to confront it as it is so true!
What was the book you read that led you to this understanding?
You severed your R I presume? I haven't caught up on your full sitch but read much of it last night.
I think you have had wider issues in your sitch GA/AA - were these for you or your S? I am confused on this point. Apologies, not meaning to pry I am just trying to see whether we have similar demographics as such.
My W does not gamble and is not addicted to drink or drugs or self medicating in any way. She is just, well IDK. That's the point. She just has problems and having read the HPA Axis dysfunction it could well be this or something similar.
You have a very clinical and well thought through approach. You seem stoic in your approach - to a degree which is amazing. Yet frightening. How you use logic and strategy to deal with this is, well frankly, rather unfathomable to me right now. I am still confused with all of this - to some degree. But I am trying to learn the skills I need for myself and my kids and my W to some degree. Also, you come across as a very intelligent lady!
This isn't flattery BTW. Just commenting on observation.
I really appreciate this help and direction. It's a massive gear shift for me however.
Surfer.
So, NC with W yesterday. After yesterday's outburst.
Worked hard all day - lots to do today.
W dropped kids this morning without a glance either way. Swimming tonight I have already mentioned to the kids that I might not make swimming today. I usually go, but sometimes if busy I don't. I like to go as it is good for them and my R with W. But she stresses massively when getting them changed. It's no big deal, but she does. I don't get it. I help Her get the kids changed, they play up - in the tiniest way - being slow, laughing with friends (they are kids). I just cheerfully help. I can feel and see her wanting to spew but around all those other mums she doesn't as they would look at her incredulously. I don't think I will go tonight I don't want to be around the monster I can feel in her right now.
So talked to kids about mum this morning. When I asked 'How was mummy yesterday/this morning stuff'. The consensus was 'stressed and angry'. I said that's okay, it's just an emotion and sometimes when people are stressed we need to give them space to calm down. But we don't need to feel like that. We just let them feel how 'they' feel. We can just be like 'us'. Happy and having fun.
I hope I am giving my kids a good way of understanding and coping. I do fear for them to some degree - not in terms of anything physical my W could do at all. She is a great and loving mum. But they clearly "see" 'her' and still, of course, love her) for what she is - they might not like the bahaviour but they accept it. They see that she is 'busy' and 'stressed'. D9 rationalises it as work is just very busy for mummy. I think therefore she has a way of explaining her ways. That seems good. But I don't want her or my S6 growing up to think the normal reaction to every day stress is this behaviour. I don't want them to have similar M's when they grow up.
Yes her job (that she never 'needed' to take up - she gas lighted me that she 'had to' because of my tight fistedness) is no doubt stressful. However, I earn very well and money was never an major object as such. I think it was all about the 'exit' when she was pulling everything away. Friends, family, love, care all the LLs - finally she went totally independent and left. She often said I would be happier living in a tiny flat than having 'this'. So money was never an issue for her clearly. I have come to learn that 'this' is, most probably, her own world as such. I feel so sorry for her I wish I could flick a switch - reset her. But I know I can't.
Sorry rambling. Memories flooding back.
Time to switch off and detach from all this for a while.
Surfer.
Jeep.
Thanks very much for the post.
I think they do enjoy it actually. But I also agree with your point that they don't see it to some degree. But that's because they are allowed to hide from the truth IMHO.
I think there is a psychological payoff in the game they play. A release. Try putting your hand in the fire. Zero payoff. You wouldn't do it twice. I think it gives them a release in e action (also in validating the action), it is totally unhealthy however, and it not only damages them it damages the kids and you and everyone around exposed to the behaviour. I wonder if the action and the validation provides a release (literally releasing frustration) and self empowerment (a pat on the back for being told they did a good job in spewing)?
They don't see it because they feel it is acceptable and right. They are perhaps people that have only validation in their life. Nobody steps up and says 'hey this is wrong'. Why, because those people can't afford the consequences of a dropped relationship, the toxic backlash or the fact that they won't listen anyway.
My W really struggles with apologies. MIL is similar. She is always right. This is perhaps a key thing IDK. It might just be tertiary rambling,
So does she see bad behaviour like this - yes. But she will only tell people 'I spewed' to get empathy. If she tells someone once and if they critique her - she will withdraw from that person. No payoff so no point in the relationship.
Weird. Very weird. In reality, these people will struggle to grow and change because they can't accept they have a problem.
We all have faults and problems. We all need to work on ourselves. God knows I have many. I will not stop working on them. Even if they take me a lifetime.
Surfer.
"Enjoy" is used loosely here. I mean they get 'a payoff'!
For your info this is where I started on emotions and anger without much structure
origins of V anger V