Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: miky152 So confused, please help - 11/08/16 08:13 AM
Hi all,

I am 37 and have two kids with my WAW of 13 years. It all started late last year when she started slowly cutting of family for perceived slights or because maintaining a relationship was pointless. Early in the year, she started having issues at work due to a new boss, and her parents helped us buy a house she wasn't really on board with...both of these caused her great stress (perhaps in tandem as the house meant she couldn't quit) In May, it got worse and she was talking about suicide. Then, in July things changed...she was more angry than sad. Lots of yelling and tons of anxiety. She was texting a ton and had started running, staying out later and later each time. She had lost weight, was straightening her hair, wearing earrings. And I was suspicious. So I checked her text history, and sure enough she was texting a guy. When I confronted her she said he was a friend from work who was depressed and helping her out. I thought it was weird, because she told me about her other friends from work that she texts but kept this one a secret. I told her it made me uncomfortable since he was 28 and single, and it didn't go well.

She started going out with her friends from work. Poker nights. Bars. Dinners. She even ditched me on a date night to go to a movie because they had an extra ticket. And there was tons of guilt and lots of secrecy. She blocked me from our cell phone bill and turned off her gps. But i was able to track her down other ways and followed her phone for a week. She wasn't going where she said, and wound up stopping by an apartment complex a few times...you guessed it, that guy from work. When I confronted her again, she was furious at first. Turned off her location services. But the next day she was extremely remorseful. Said that she was running while he caught Pokemon. That she was sick of hearing about his problems anyway and wouldn't see him anymore. But she continued to not come home until late at night. Worked more. Couldn't sleep. Started going hiking for the day on Sundays. And then she dropped the bomb and said she was moving out in September. 6 month lease.

I helped her move out. I did what I could to support her. She promised to come over daily and help with the kids, and for the first week she split time between our place and the apartment. But by week 2 she was there full time. We saw her 1 or 2 times a week. I heard from her daily, but it was usually really short. We were not allowed at her apartment.

It had been like this pretty much up until the Saturday before Halloween when we were supposed to go to visit family together about an hour away. At the last minute, she said she had a stomach bug and we weren't going. Later that day, I sat down to watch netflix and noticed some shows that had been watched recently that I didn't watch and I know she didn't (they were cartoons) but that the guy she was talking to would be interested in. I confronted her. I also called her mom and talked to her about it for the first time. Her whole family thought it was an affair before I even gave a story. Her mom called her and told her to stop stringing me along, so on Sunday she came over and said she didn't love me anymore. Was very cold. When I begged and argued, all she had in return was rage like I have never seen. I thought it was over.

But the next morning she apologized profusely. Wanted to come over and take the kids trick or treating. Gave me a hug when she got there (first in months) and told me she loved me (also first time in months). It almost felt normal for a night. Then back to the same ol the next day. On wednesday it came to a head. She came over without notice and i asked what she was doing there. We fought about the guy, what she said, etc...and after she left, I had had enough. I called verizon and was reinstated as account owner. There were THOUSANDS of texts to this guy. I was sick. I was done. My parents came up to help. I met with a lawyer. I sent her a proposal that she dump that guy and go to marriage counseling, and if it doesn't work I would consider it a sign of good faith and consider a more equitable arrangement with the kids.And a strange thing happened. She started begging to see the kids. For me to tell them she loves them. She said she was "coming out of her fog"

On Saturday, my daughter fell playing with her brother outside and needed some stiches. I let her know and she met me at the ER. She was very angry/cold at first, but by the end we had a chat in the car where she admitted she was angry at me from years back and that she just couldn't get past it...that she couldn't love me anymore. But we agreed she would come over on Sunday. It was nice and we almost felt like a family again. She made plans to come over Monday. But she also refused my proposal and refused to show me her texts from Logan.

I found this website yesterday when looking for what I should do. I see now I made tons of mistakes. But what I really need to know is...is she a WW or a WAW? I lean towards the former, but part of me refuses to accept that she had an affair despite all the obvious signs...Without concrete proof (she denies it, of course) I am constantly wavering on a course of action and it is killing me. I started the process of treating her like a WW last night when she came over the best I could, and it obviously got to her. She lingered when leaving because I just said bye, she texted me when she got home saying she sensed pain in me and hoped we would someday be friends, then when I didn't respond she said she gets it and wont contact me unless it is about the kids. I don't want to drive her away, just make her want me again.

Please help
Posted By: Cadet Re: So confused, please help - 11/08/16 01:25 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: So confused, please help - 11/08/16 02:01 PM
Originally Posted By: miky152
what I really need to know is...is she a WW or a WAW?


It doesnt really matter if she slept with him for it to be an affair. There was an emotional connection which threatens/ed your marriage...thats an affair in my book, regardless of whether he put his penis inside of her.

I would proceed like you have a WW. Follow Sandi's rules, detach, GAL, and all of that.

Good luck.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/08/16 02:43 PM
The perhaps most unusual part in all of this is that she didn't only leave me, but our D7 and S4. She was only coming by once a week, and before she left she saw them for maybe 20 minutes a day. She told me she didn't love anything, including them, and being around them was painful. She also said she resented them because she couldn't end her life for fear of how it would impact theirs.

Of course, this all predates the guy...I assume he helped her feel something.

But starting with Halloween she has been coming around more. LAst night she told me she wants to see the kids as much as possible. What I don't know is if this is a reaction to potentially losing me (and thereby the kids) and she is really "coming out of her fog" as she puts it, or if she is just trying to keep me on the line. She does seem a bit more like her old self.
Posted By: Cadet Re: So confused, please help - 11/08/16 02:46 PM
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/08/16 02:56 PM
I have ordered the DR book and plan on reading it this weekend.

Quick question...she has moved out of the house, so when she wants to see the kids is it ok for her to come there, or should I be meeting her at a neutral site?
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 07:46 AM
Two questions:

First off, any tips for GAL when your WW leaves you with the kids and up until a week ago has made almost 0 effort to see them? I don't have much in the way of family in the area, and the kids are young (7 and 4). It's tough to have a life when my life pretty much revolves around work and them

Second question, also regarding the kids. Since I had a consultation with the Lawyer last Thursday (the day after I discovered she was still texting OM), she has been wanting to see the kids more...technically it may have even started a bit sooner than that. Anyway, she now says she wants to see them every day after going a week without seeing them and even then only for an hour or two at a time. I tried to work out a schedule, but she mocks the idea that we could be busy and says her schedule at work is hectic. The best I could do was requiring 24 hours notice. Any tips for enforcing better boundaries without being a jerk or denying my kids access to their mom?
Posted By: Cadet Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 08:58 AM
Originally Posted By: miky152

Quick question...she has moved out of the house, so when she wants to see the kids is it ok for her to come there, or should I be meeting her at a neutral site?

There is no right or wrong answers here,
you know her better than we do,
what do YOU want to happen?

The only other advice I can give you is that whatever you set up now could follow along in any divorce proceedings.
So be sure to stand up for yourself and do what you want,
dont do something because you think it will bring her back or make it easier to reconcile.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 09:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: miky152

Quick question...she has moved out of the house, so when she wants to see the kids is it ok for her to come there, or should I be meeting her at a neutral site?

There is no right or wrong answers here,
you know her better than we do,
what do YOU want to happen?

The only other advice I can give you is that whatever you set up now could follow along in any divorce proceedings.
So be sure to stand up for yourself and do what you want,
dont do something because you think it will bring her back or make it easier to reconcile.


I don't want to punish her or the kids for what she is done...the truth is I don't have a lot of anger towards her (of course, she also denies any infidelity of any kind but refuses to provide any proof to the contrary in the face of how bad it looks and that little bit of me not being sure one way or the other keeps the true anger at bay).

What does scare me is she is acting erratically. Unsafe driving, running at night, staying out late, hanging out with losers I wouldn't want my children around, maybe even drinking and driving...and that is just what I know of. So I don't feel 100% confident in leaving young children in her care for extended periods of time. I'd like to be there when she visits, but that in turn makes GAL and detaching a million times more difficult, so I am torn.
Posted By: Cadet Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 09:19 AM
Originally Posted By: miky152
I don't want to punish her or the kids for what she is done...the truth is I don't have a lot of anger towards her (of course, she also denies any infidelity of any kind but refuses to provide any proof to the contrary in the face of how bad it looks and that little bit of me not being sure one way or the other keeps the true anger at bay).

What does scare me is she is acting erratically. Unsafe driving, running at night, staying out late, hanging out with losers I wouldn't want my children around, maybe even drinking and driving...and that is just what I know of. So I don't feel 100% confident in leaving young children in her care for extended periods of time. I'd like to be there when she visits, but that in turn makes GAL and detaching a million times more difficult, so I am torn.

It sounds like you should make the best decisions for you and for your children.
Sometimes being a good DAD means tough love.
I am not saying to punish her but just be aware she is
not the person you thought she was.
She is an alien in her a body that looks like her right now.
Posted By: dream Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 10:26 AM
My opinion - She left the house. She lost her full access to her children. Make a schedule and stick with it. I think she should watch the children at her place, assuming it's safe for them to be there. If not, I suppose she can get limited visitation while you pursue full custody. Allowing her to come and go as she pleases is cake-eating.
Posted By: fightin Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 12:53 PM
miky I feel for you. My W is having an A openly and refuses to stop. We have to do everything in our power to remember exactly what cadet said, they are aliens right now. Their heads are not in the place we wish it was and we certainly can't force them to want to be with us.

Your situation with kids is a difficult one. If you have friends willing to hang out with you and your children, even better if they have children of their own that can play with your kids. Then at least you'll get a start to having adult conversations and spending time with people that make you feel good about yourself.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 01:48 PM
Originally Posted By: fightin
miky I feel for you. My W is having an A openly and refuses to stop. We have to do everything in our power to remember exactly what cadet said, they are aliens right now. Their heads are not in the place we wish it was and we certainly can't force them to want to be with us.

Your situation with kids is a difficult one. If you have friends willing to hang out with you and your children, even better if they have children of their own that can play with your kids. Then at least you'll get a start to having adult conversations and spending time with people that make you feel good about yourself.


The problem is I moved away from family a friends to live closer to her family. I am isolated here. I do have a few coworkers who have offered, and maybe I should take them up on it.

I am just so mad at her when I think it is an affair. Sometimes I think the only reason I second guess it is to protect myself from the pain. For months I believed her that she was going through some deep depression (and maybe it started out that way) despite knowing in my heart of hearts it was a lie.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 08:33 PM
At this point like many of the wonderful men here with wayward wives, you are the more stable parent for your precious children.

That is more important than anything right now.

Their mother is still of course their mother, her waywardness is evident.

Hang on in there it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Big hugs

V
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/09/16 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: dream
My opinion - She left the house. She lost her full access to her children. Make a schedule and stick with it. I think she should watch the children at her place, assuming it's safe for them to be there. If not, I suppose she can get limited visitation while you pursue full custody. Allowing her to come and go as she pleases is cake-eating.


Nicely put in my view. Agree with this.

V
Posted By: MoveFrwd Re: So confused, please help - 11/10/16 07:54 AM
Originally Posted By: miky152
First off, any tips for GAL when your WW leaves you with the kids and up until a week ago has made almost 0 effort to see them? I don't have much in the way of family in the area, and the kids are young (7 and 4). It's tough to have a life when my life pretty much revolves around work and them


I have kids around the same age. Some things I did/do:

- find a gym that has a day care or child center. This will let you take your kids to the gym while you work out. If they have a pool, thats even better as you can go with your kids there for an hour or 2 on the weekends or at night.
- find local things that you can do with the kids cheaply. Libraries, museums, play areas, etc. A lot of times, there are many community events aimed at children as well. Find them and go. You will draw happiness from their happiness.
- arrange activities and play dates for your kids. If you can do parties for holidays or special events, that will help you as well as youcan get wrapped up in the planning and cooking of the event. Letting your children invite their school friends will improve your relationship with them and you may meet new friends.
- volunteer for community service. I imagine there are activities that your kids can help with. Or volunteer at their schools during the week.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/14/16 09:46 AM
Well, it is official...It is a full blown PA and they might even be living together. At the very least he is staying over.

I know this because after confronting her on Friday (I know, I know) in the nicest, most non-confrontational way I could think of about how I understand how emotional affairs can happen under extreme stress, she blew me off and went back to her depression story.

So I asked her on Saturday if she wanted to hang out (kids were at in-laws) and got a no. Asked if she wanted to get breakfast on Sunday, she said no. So I suspected. And brought her breakfast without notice. He was there. At least I know now.

At first, I wanted nothing to do with her. But now, I am back to thinking I at least want to try. So I will embrace DB tactics now that I know for sure she is a WW. What do I have to lose I guess.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/14/16 12:40 PM
I know this might be a silly question and all, considering the name of the forums and all...

But how far do I go down the road with regards to divorce/dissolution? I have met with a lawyer to understand my options, opened a separate checking account, taken her/my name off of credit cards and potentially insurance. Update my life insurance to pay out for my kids.

Is that enough? Do I pursue a dissolution, or at least start working on the paperwork to communicate I am serious, (I am, sorta...I will not wait forever) or do I just wait it out and look week when she calls my bluff?

I don't want a divorce/dissolution...but it feels inevitable at this point and I fear if I don't initiate it she may lawyer up and cause problems. Maybe not even worry about it for now? I am mostly protected.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/16/16 10:21 PM
What does your L say is your best strategy?

In some sitches early filing and the initiative is important. In others not so much.

There are many factors and your future depends on great L advice.

If your W is a WW then that changes a great deal in the way you handle things. Her A was covert and now you know the truth. Intel next.

Remind me, who is in the Marital Home? If it's her move back in and into the MBR. In an A sitch it's her that should move out.

Remember once D starts you will have fewer options and will be unable to prevent certain choices.

Get to it.

V
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/16/16 10:23 PM
I do know you helped her move out. So I assume you are there?

V
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/17/16 08:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
I do know you helped her move out. So I assume you are there?

V


Yes, I am in the Marital Home. She moved out for "space" in September. At the time, she was still claiming that she was depressed and needed some time and space to think...hence me helping her move in. It is only now that I realize the real reason she moved out is because she was sick of meeting up with the OM in parking lots (he has/had roommates who work with them).

On Monday (the day after I confirmed the PA), I contacted her and told her she could visit the kids on MWF starting on Wednesday (yesterday) but those visits would need to be supervised for the time being. She agreed. But yesterday she texted and asked if she could leave work early and pick them up so she could have more time with them (I assume the real motive was to avoid me) and I told her no...we need to stick to the schedule.

When she first arrived it was super awkward. Neither of us really said anything and I tried to make myself scarce while she interacted with the kids. Eventually I came downstairs and had a brief conversation with her, trying hard to follow the rules about listening and not giving too many details. After that she loosened up a bit. Almost too much. Starting helping herself to our food. Walking in and out of our MBR and even calling it "Mommy and Daddy's bed" before correcting herself...pretty much acting like she still lived there and cake eating.

While she was getting the kids to sleep, I started working out (sure to wear a tight shirt, ha) and pretty much ignored her when she came downstairs to leave. I could tell she was annoyed. Then, as she was leaving I asked her if I could talk for a sec, then proceeded to tell her that she doesn't live here anymore and needs to respect those boundaries and act like a guest when she comes over. She blew it off at first, but then five minutes after she left she called (I didnt answer). Then she texted that she was "sorry for whatever she did" (I didn't respond). An hour after that I got 4 texts in a row that said 1) Im just sorry in general 2) I really miss my friend 3) And im sorry for everything 4) Im even sorry for this.

This isn't the first time she apologized, and I know that it's likely just manipulation, but I will say this...I had somewhat of an epiphany tonight. I now see what detachment means. I didn't respond. TBH, i didn't even react to those texts (I didn't answer back). I am starting to see that the person I loved is gone and has been replace by a selfish manipulator. I have no desire to chase this person or help this person. But I still care about them from afar, and if she does make changes in her life and wants to come back I would not close myself off to that.

I think I finally get it. As a result, I had the best sleep I have had in months. I was in a good mood this morning. And I am still in a good mood. I dont know where this path leads, but I do know it is alot less painful than the one I was walking on.
Posted By: TxHubby Re: So confused, please help - 11/17/16 08:59 AM
You're way ahead of the game my man. Good for you. Stay the course. She might step up her efforts to reel you back in only to squash your heart like a bug again. Don't fall for it. You're where it took some of us years to get to. That's good for your own health. Again, stay the course.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/17/16 01:51 PM
W has texted me more today than she has in a week...

First to tell me she has an interview (I replied later "You must be excited, Congrats")

Later, she asked me about my plans for the weekend...To which I responded "Why do you want to know?" She said she could watch the kids, so I told her I had it covered.

Its funny...A week ago I would have been pumped that she was contacting me. Now that she is, I am almost annoyed. I set a boundary and now she is trying to break it down.
Posted By: Cristy Re: So confused, please help - 11/17/16 03:03 PM
Hello Miky152,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

You've probably heard this before, but believe none of what she says and only half of what she does. Keep up the good work in keeping the cake eating to a minimum. It is very important for you to continue to detach, but not be cold.

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/18/16 11:26 AM
Well, last night I learned there is a huge difference between the clarity of knowing where you need to be, and actually being there...

Yesterday was my WW birthday, and I was actually feeling pretty good about things all things considered. But then I let the kids send her a text video singing happy birthday. She responded with a thanks. Then a little later she texted me that her mom invited her up on Saturday (I knew that was going to happen) to spend time with her and the kids. She said she had to work and thought it was a bad idea, but wanted to make sure it was ok with me before even considering it. I validated her on having to work and her fears about going (and likely getting lectured) then said it was ok with me and thanked her for asking. I got no response and still haven't. Im not sure why it bothers me...probably because I know she was likely out with OM and her new friends.

I know that needs to not bother me for me to truly move on. Most days it doesn't. I am hoping the holidays dont trigger similar reactions...but I have a feeling they wont because the kids will be with me.
Posted By: fightin Re: So confused, please help - 11/18/16 12:05 PM
Hi Miky,

I think just knowing where you need to be is a good step, the getting there just takes time. Keep up the work and stay strong. Keep posting and reading here. I don't know about you, but this place is really helping me through this difficult sitch.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: So confused, please help - 11/18/16 02:53 PM
A lot of things are about knowing when to do certain things, b/c if the timing is not right....nothing will succeed. With a WW, it's all about her resentment & disrespect toward her H. Therefore, he has to get her respect, before he gets her love/desire. Let the respect factor be your guide while you are DBing. This is not the time to show her how much you love her. This is the time to show your self-respect, confidence, boundaries, etc.

Quote:
This isn't the first time she apologized, and I know that it's likely just manipulation, but I will say this...I had somewhat of an epiphany tonight. I now see what detachment means. I didn't respond. TBH, i didn't even react to those texts (I didn't answer back). I am starting to see that the person I loved is gone and has been replace by a selfish manipulator. I have no desire to chase this person or help this person. But I still care about them from afar, and if she does make changes in her life and wants to come back I would not close myself off to that.


THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the man you have to be with a WW. Why the heck didn't you stick with it? Are you serious about wanting to know how to interact with a WW?

Quote:
W has texted me more today than she has in a week...


Of course she did! Do you know why? B/c of the guy you were showing her the last time she was over. So now she's going to test you a little to see if that guy is still there, or if she can play him a little. She will be attracted to the guy she can't play.

Quote:
First to tell me she has an interview (I replied later "You must be excited, Congrats")


Okay, I can understand how you could get some things out of timing......since you are a newbie and reading so much new information. Listen, you have recently caught her in a PA. So right now while she's in an affair....she is not your friend, b/c she is doing another man. You are not always there for her. You are not her cheerleader, nor her counselor.......as long as she is disrespecting you in any way. Why would she even dare think you'd be interested in her getting an interview? Think about it. She has traded you in for another man!

Quote:
Later, she asked me about my plans for the weekend...To which I responded "Why do you want to know?" She said she could watch the kids, so I told her I had it covered.


EXCELLENT answer! Perfect!

When the W leaves her H, and especially for another man......she loses certain privileges. You told her about part if it when she came over making herself at home as though nothing has happened. Another one of those lost privileges is knowing what her LBH does in his private life. The only exception of her knowing anything, would be if you were taking the kids out of town/state.....and even then, she should not know every little detail, know what I mean? Just remember that little piece of information. The game plan changed the minute she cheated.

Quote:
She said she had to work and thought it was a bad idea, but wanted to make sure it was ok with me before even considering it. I validated her on having to work and her fears about going (and likely getting lectured) then said it was ok with me and thanked her for asking.


She wanted to make sure it was ok with you before she'd even consider it? Well......really? And you fell right into it, didn't you? Look, she is temperature checking you. Did she want to check with you before she took up with another guy? I doubt it. Think about it. Why would she suddenly want to be so friendly and considerate? Remember the last time she was over? Yeah, that time. Well, it caused her to get a little curious about you. So now, she is checking to see if she can say something and get a response from you that tells her that you are still emotionally attached to her. She wants to see if you care.

What did you say, exactly, when you validated her? I am always reading where H's say they validated, but they never say what or how. Unless validation is a natural gift for you, I'd be careful during this time frame, b/c of the mindset of the WW. You do NOT want to look/sound as if you are kissing a$$. IMHO, you overkilled big time, as a lot of LBH's do. She got just exactly what she was looking for when she contacted you!

Quote:
I got no response and still haven't.


Know why it bothers you? B/c you gave yourself away. Now she knows she still has you.....and once she knows, then she's not interested.

My suggestion is for a little while, anyway, don't be so eager to gush over the fact she is telling you anything.....b/c she is all about manipulation. And the key about manipulation is to not let the manipulated person know that they are being manipulated. The newly LBH is often so delighted to see her acting halfway "nice", he fails to see through what she's really doing.

If you want to know more about the wayward wife's mindset and usual behavior, you can follow the threads about it. The first one is below.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/18/16 10:33 PM
Wow Sandy, lots of information in there! I'll be the first to admit, I am terrible at validating and should probably not do a ton of it unless it's low hanging fruit like I'm sorry or that [censored].

Tonight was a rough one. I didn't hear from her all day, then she texted on her way over to the house to see the kids (I let her come over mwf after work to spend some supervised time). She was pretty pissy from when she first got there and had to be let in (I didn't unlock the door for her this time). She did a lot of complaining about how it's unfair that her visits have to be supervised and that she can't do overnights (even though she lives in a one bedroom apartment and the OM seemed awfully comfy when I showed up. I tried my best to avoid confrontation, but she sucked me in a few times. She kept saying that I was "punishing her" with the kids, but she showed zero interest in seeing them until recently, and considering I just caught her with OM she claimed didn't exist, I think I was being nice letting her see the kids at all, let alone three nights a week at my house. She was also complaining about coming over straight from work and being hungry but not allowed to eat the food...after she said she was goi g to take the kids out and get ice cream/dinner at what is normally their bed time, I relented and told her she could eat some leftovers but made it clear it was not for her but rather so the kids wouldn't be dragged out.

Towards the end, it all kind of came to a head. She asked why I wouldn't let her take the kids anywhere unsupervised. Said she wanted something in writing and that I couldn't stop her. I told her that I didn't trust her and the kids needed stability. She went back to the punishing card. Then she told me she only started the PA after I started moving on a week ago (asked for key, got own checking), which was clearly a lie but it really pissed me off that she insinuated I drove her to cheat. So I asked one or two questions that confirm the affair was taking place earlier and she was evasive. I knew it was a bad spot to be in so I suggested she head home for the night.

She called like 5 minutes after she left and I should have let it ring, but I answered it. She wanted to apologize for fighting...and I didn't reciprocate the apology. So she went back to punishing her with the kids. This time, I was very clear and forceful with out yelling telling her that I am not doing what I am doing to hurt her...I only care about the kids and their best interests and right now they need a stable home and some consistency. She ended the call shortly after.

I'm sorry for all the rambling. I really lost my cool tonight but it felt like I was being provoked and I felt like it was better to stand up for myself than to cave to her demands at least.

I obviously still have a long way to go. What's shocking to me is she has shown zero remorse for the PA. No shame.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/19/16 05:27 AM
Well, she is definitely still in my head...so much for progress. Had trouble sleeping last night. Even though I know in my head that the affair has been going on for months and her claims that it just turned physical when I "moved on", my sad broken heart wants to believe her because it makes her less of a monster and let's me blame myself.

I just don't understand how I keep getting manipulated. I mean I know it's coming and it STILL WORKS.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/19/16 05:30 AM
Oh just to add...the only silver lining is I don't think she is aware quite how much last night got to me. At the time it was more anger that she would even suggest it. The doubt didn't creep in until later.
Posted By: j20a00g Re: So confused, please help - 11/19/16 05:55 AM
Originally Posted By: miky152
The perhaps most unusual part in all of this is that she didn't only leave me, but our D7 and S4. She was only coming by once a week, and before she left she saw them for maybe 20 minutes a day. She told me she didn't love anything, including them, and being around them was painful. She also said she resented them because she couldn't end her life for fear of how it would impact theirs.

Of course, this all predates the guy...I assume he helped her feel something.

But starting with Halloween she has been coming around more. LAst night she told me she wants to see the kids as much as possible. What I don't know is if this is a reaction to potentially losing me (and thereby the kids) and she is really "coming out of her fog" as she puts it, or if she is just trying to keep me on the line. She does seem a bit more like her old self.



So it bothered you before that she didn't want to see the kids and now it's bothering you that she does? It really does sound like you are using them as a weapon.
If she goes to court you are in for a rude awakening.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/19/16 09:23 AM
It is not in your interest to keep the children from their mother. No matter what your views.

And like J2 I do think there is control in this. You may be best with making a voluntary arrangement with her rather than have the court impose one. They may decide you leave the MH.

You can have an appropriate schedule and calender. Do this online to cut arguments.

I think you need L advice asap.

V
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/19/16 10:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
It is not in your interest to keep the children from their mother. No matter what your views.

And like J2 I do think there is control in this. You may be best with making a voluntary arrangement with her rather than have the court impose one. They may decide you leave the MH.

You can have an appropriate schedule and calender. Do this online to cut arguments.

I think you need L advice asap.

V



To be clear, I have met with a Lawyer. I have established Primary custodial parent status with the school, daycare, guidance counselor, coaches, etc. The Lawyer didn't seem concerned about me retaining full custody.

And we have a schedule. She can visit or we can meet at a place of her choosing on MWF after 530 (and I have asked she arrive before 630 if possible). Considering how this all went down, I consider that offer generous. Once she proves reliable, I would be willing to discuss unsupervised visits. Originally, I proposed that she read the state guidance on shared parenting (like I had) and she blew me off. Said it didn't sound fair that the kids would have different visitation based on their age. Then she disappeared for a few days and I discovered her PA.

Maybe that sounds harsh...but even HER family supports this course of action. She went weeks with minimal contact. And before that, we are talking 30-40 minutes of time and zero actual childcare responsibilities. Our kids are confused. She has yet to address any of this with them. She comes over and acts as if nothing has happened. She is in denial.

Im sorry if I seem angry. I am not a vindictive person. But I AM fiercly protective of my children and always have been. It is my job to protect them, and their mom is unstable right now. I want her to be in their lives, and it doesn't need to be on my terms...but if I dont trust her to have their best interests in mind, I cant really see myself allowing them to go with her unsupervised unless I have a court order telling me I have to.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: So confused, please help - 11/20/16 05:19 AM
Thank you for the clarification.

Very useful.

V
Posted By: dream Re: So confused, please help - 11/20/16 09:09 AM
How old is your wife? I'm surprised she's tolerating your supervised visits... usually a court order is needed for the supervised visits, not the other way around.

I think you're using the kids to punish her for cheating on you. And that's sad.

Originally Posted By: miky152
considering I just caught her with OM she claimed didn't exist, I think I was being nice letting her see the kids at all


Originally Posted By: miky152
Considering how this all went down, I consider that offer generous.


If you're planning to pursue full physical custody, I think you should get started on that and make it legally necessary for supervised visitation. You should then be able to have someone else be the supervisor so that you can do other things during this time.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 08:04 AM
Well,

Yesterday was pretty rough in the morning. Had a bunch of pity parties and was blaming myself a lot for the situation I find myself in.

But I sucked it up in time for when the WW came over to visit the kids. I was nice but not too nice, generally avoided fights, didn't talk about the R, etc...Had a little hiccup when she offered to come over and take care of the animals while I was out of town with the kids, as she no longer has a key and I am not thrilled about having her in the house. I acted hesitant about the offer and she was offended. I did my best to avoid conflict and tried to diffuse it later.

After she left I got a flurry of texts that I didn't respond to, then she asked if my daughter was asleep, to which I finally responded. A few more non-deescript texts and I wound up sending the last one...crap. Oh well, will not dwell on it. I need to get better at responding only to questions and not statements.

Update: As I was typing this, she just offered again to take care of the animals. She added that she would stay downstairs and not bring anyone over to the house, "if that was my concern" I feel like telling her thanks but no thanks and that I have someone else who will do it (even though I don't). Quite frankly I don't want her help.
Posted By: doodler Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 08:08 AM
Originally Posted By: miky152
Update: As I was typing this, she just offered again to take care of the animals. She added that she would stay downstairs and not bring anyone over to the house, "if that was my concern" I feel like telling her thanks but no thanks and that I have someone else who will do it (even though I don't). Quite frankly I don't want her help.


miky152,

I'm sorry yesterday was rough. I hope today is better for you.

I think you're doing the right thing with regards to getting someone else to take care of the animals. The WW will use anything to keep you on the hook.
Posted By: fightin Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 08:13 AM
I second what doodler said. Hang in there miky, we all have our ups and downs, just try to keep in mind that they will pass.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 08:25 AM
Texted her thanks for the offer, but that I have it covered. No response.

Now I just need to actually get someone else to do it...will ask a neighbor
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 08:56 AM
she texted back "you aren't even going to explain that to me?"

I'm thinking I just let it go and don't even respond, vs. sending a rude comment or actually explaining. I know it's minor, but I feel like I am in a weird spot right now where I need to break away from my codependency and ever decision is important.
Posted By: dream Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 11:50 AM
There's no need to reply to that. It sounds to me that she wants in your house for something.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 11/22/16 11:59 AM
Originally Posted By: dream
There's no need to reply to that. It sounds to me that she wants in your house for something.


I wrote her back that No, I am not...I don't owe her explanations anymore. Its enough to say I have it covered...but thanks for offering

She didn't like that! Something about them being her animals too, and how its not asking a lot...then some curse words and another comment about asking for too much. I haven't replied and don't intend to.

Initially it felt good to stand up for myself, but now I feel bad...
Posted By: dream Re: So confused, please help - 11/23/16 12:48 PM
It's not about standing up for yourself. It's about not engaging in conversations with her that aren't necessary. She was looking for a fight/argument with you and she would have been upset with ANY response that you said - other than caving into her wants.

If she was worried about taking care of the animals she should have taken them with her when she left. Instead, she left them for you to be responsible for and look after.
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 02/21/17 12:33 PM
Well, it's been a long time since I posted here...and a lot has changed. I recently went back and reread DR and it got me thinking that I should come back and give posting here another shot.

The highlights:

- Wife is still living in a one bedroom apartment...will be 6 months in March
- She started a new job in January. OM worked at her old place, and old job was a huge stresser. She "hates" the new job because the commute [censored] and she has no friends (though I am secretly relieved because clearly her work relationships don't have a great track record lately
- New Job comes with a much better schedule...she now picks up the kids from school and brings them to the house, where she watches them until I get home...we eat dinner as a family (I cook) and she handles some of the kid responsibilites like bath time before she splits (usually an hour or so after dinner)
- Holidays were ok. Thanksgiving was a low point as we spent it apart...I was finally ready to move on but she kind of pulled me back in probably because she was feeling lonely. Christmas eve she stayed at the house...but the kids and I went to her parents house without her for christmas dinner (she is fighting with them over the affair and her moving out...they took my "side" in the matter). We fought a bit on christmas about how it felt fake knowing there was another man, but she wound up spending the next night too. Not in same bed, fyi
- Shortly after New Years we hit a new low. The kids and I brought her some breakfast one morning without much warning, and other man had spent the night. Luckily the kids were not aware. I was irate as I had been lead to believe it was over/ending. We had a long talk that day where she finally admitted it was a physical affair and that he loved her (she says she cares about him...but it is more maternal, whatever that means). The way she described it was actually kind of pathetic, though...sounds like they don't have sex much, and not at all lately. That he comes over and plays video games (which is hysterical when you think about it, as it was something she hated about me and I have mostly stopped in pursuit of more "grown up hobbies and working out). After the talk, she was less anxious than she had been in MONTHS. The next day though, the anxiety was back. The following day, I showed up again in the morning (first day of new job) to drop off some lunch and OM was there again...I was super angry and started "detaching" immediately.

So here we are now...Im not sure where her and OM stand...I know they had a fight a few weeks back that she doesn't want to talk about. I know they still talk at least on occasion, but not sure if he still comes over and don't really "care" unless I am feeling particularly vulnerable or alone. Like I said she is at the house daily, texts me or calls me throughout the day, and our relationship is generally friendly and has very little fighting. I have really backed off the R talks. There is still very little physical contact...occasional hugs are it. No I love yous (but she does make the half heart symbol when she leaves every night as she drives away). She is much more engaged with the kids (though she has never taken them...they stay at the house every time), and doesn't constantly text "friends" anymore.

She claims the no contact is because she doesn't want to lead me on. That she hasn't made her mind up yet and its not fair to me to be physical. Same reason she doesn't stay over. She is talking about seeing a therapist and says she wont make a decision until she has, but all I get are excuses for why she hasn't scheduled a session. I personally think that she is afraid to face the consequences of her actions. I am easy on her and enable her, but a less invested third party will likely tell her to take responsibility...and she is not ready to hear that.

So, my question is...after all that...how long do I need to stay in this limbo? What can I do to break out of it without being super harsh and burning down the progress I have made? I don't want to be stuck in this friend zone forever, and the truth is I am only surviving it because I am tricking myself into believing the OM is either out of the picture or diminished. I am doing my best to GAL, but its kind of tough with a full-time job and two young children! She is around, but I am still the only parent there when they go to bed and wake up...I am the one who is responsible for their care.
Posted By: Gordie Re: So confused, please help - 02/23/17 08:35 AM
Gordie: I am new to your situation. So, you have been a single dad for six months and your W is living separately and has a maybe on-again/off-again live-out boyfriend who comes over for sleepovers of indeterminate frequency. W says she's unsure whether or not she wants to be M to you or work on the M, right?

Miky152: "How long do I need to stay in this limbo?"

Gordie: You can only control you. I'm a newbie too and learning the hard way that there is nothing we can say or do to control our W. We can certainly make the road back more (be the man only a fool would leave) or less enticing (don't change anything and be the same man she left), but whether or not they want to come back...is totally up to them and on their time frame. It's not over until you say it is over...so how long do you want to stay in this limbo?

Miky152: "What can I do to break out of it without being super harsh and burning down the progress I have made?"

Gordie: Going back to the DB/DR principles...if you feel like you are in a rut where you are now...start with a beginner's mind...stop going down cheeseless tunnels (doing things that aren't working)...and experiment and monitor results...what can you do to change the situation without your W's participation? You see her every day, so what can you do that would be different? Surprising? Mysterious? Are you still attached and letting her moods control your moods/actions? She is cold and you are grumpy...she gives you an ILY and you are happy? What GAL activities do you have going on?
Posted By: miky152 Re: So confused, please help - 02/23/17 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Gordie
Gordie: I am new to your situation. So, you have been a single dad for six months and your W is living separately and has a maybe on-again/off-again live-out boyfriend who comes over for sleepovers of indeterminate frequency. W says she's unsure whether or not she wants to be M to you or work on the M, right?

Miky152: "How long do I need to stay in this limbo?"

Gordie: You can only control you. I'm a newbie too and learning the hard way that there is nothing we can say or do to control our W. We can certainly make the road back more (be the man only a fool would leave) or less enticing (don't change anything and be the same man she left), but whether or not they want to come back...is totally up to them and on their time frame. It's not over until you say it is over...so how long do you want to stay in this limbo?

Miky152: "What can I do to break out of it without being super harsh and burning down the progress I have made?"

Gordie: Going back to the DB/DR principles...if you feel like you are in a rut where you are now...start with a beginner's mind...stop going down cheeseless tunnels (doing things that aren't working)...and experiment and monitor results...what can you do to change the situation without your W's participation? You see her every day, so what can you do that would be different? Surprising? Mysterious? Are you still attached and letting her moods control your moods/actions? She is cold and you are grumpy...she gives you an ILY and you are happy? What GAL activities do you have going on?


That's pretty much the long and short of my situation, yes. The good news is she seems to be recommitting to being a mother, at least to a certain extent. She hasn't taken any "real" responsibility for them, yet, but at least she is trying to see them every day and cares about how they are doing...this, in turn, has had a positive impact on our children and their general disposition.

She is definitely struggling with what she wants. I do think that if her EA/PA isn't over, it is seriously diminished. The honeymoon phase is over...it will likely die/has died a natural death in the near future. Of course, most of this is speculative, as we don't talk about it so it's based more on her actions. While I see this as a positive, I realize by no means are we out of the woods.

As for my GAL activities...honestly, that has been the hardest part for me. I have been working out and eating healthy for the past 6 months (lost roughly 60 lbs and can see my abs for the first time since my 20's), I joined a golf league, play fantasy baseball...and while I have been reconnecting with friends and family, most of my friends and family live out-of-state so it's been limited to texts and phone calls for the most part. My one local friend is fun to hang out with, but he is in a crappy place with his ex and is really into the bar scene so my interactions with him are limited. I do have a ton of fun at work though...my work friends are great. And I spend a lot of my free time being the best dad I can be...reading them Harry Potter, taking them to museums/movies/parks, etc. I have also really gotten into cooking and am exploring another advanced degree more in line with my current field.

All of that helps. And the truth is, I don't hate the "limbo" all that much as long as I am mindful of the improvements...but the not knowing about the OM situation and the occasional mixed messages still get to me, so I struggle with not getting too high or too low.
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