My wife and I have had some M issues for a few years now as we have gotten less and less intimate. I knew it wasn't perfect but chalked it up to craziness of life kids, etc. I found evidence about a month ago that she is in therapy struggling with this man she is "madly in love with" through text messages with a friend. I did more digging and found text messages with a coworker of 15 years (also married) as she professes her love to him and seems to be begging him to get back together, and can't understand why he doesn't want her anymore. His responses seem cold and short. Within her texts to a friend she even claimed "I gave him a choice it was all or nothing - he chose nothing." My takeaway has to be they were having an affair and she was set to leave me for him but he didn't bite. Right?
Needless to say I am REELING. We have openly talked about the OM for years as he was a mentor to her and - I thought - a friend. He is 12 years older so I never thought she would find him attractive.
I have read a lot and know she is addicted to the A. I have a child with special needs so i want to try and save the marriage if possible, but am coming to grips with it may not be possible. My question is with this type of evidence that doesn't CLEARLY prove the other man reciprocated, should I confront her? Or should I not reveal what I know and implement other tactics? (180?) i have started some disassociation tactics and have seen her definitely seen a change in behavior as I can tell she. Prices a change in my behavior and might be in to her. She is all Of a sudden trying to be more involved with the kids (who she was ignoring), "overexplain" plans she has, and been a bit more engaged with me - I see this as trying to get me off her scent. She really made an effort this weekend to have a good time with me and friends and I feel I caved back to being a good H vs being a "better man".
Please help as I am struggling with what to do when here.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I dont have any advise for you except i would not be able to not confront my W if i had proof (i.e it wasnt all in my head). I am incapable of letting that slide, similar to Sandhi's story i would tell her to make a choice Stay and work on the M or GTFO, away from me, away from our house and away from our children. She may choose to go in which case do you really want to save the M with such a selfish person, or she may choose to stay but that doesnt mean you go back to being a loving husband, there is still plenty of work to be done.But thats just me.
Go read up on - For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Read it over and over again. Remember whatever she tells you it mostly be lies. Trust nothing what she says and 50% of what she does.
Her 40th birthday is this weekend so I'm going to wait until after that for sure. Should I let the A. Take its course before I confront?
I have heard telling her you have to have your facts lined up and your next steps crystal clear. I know her personality and I feel if I can't show conclusive evidence I will get avoidance and deflection. Wont be productive. I'm starting the no. Ore me nice guy routine. Again she sees a change.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I have evidence of the affair but not absolute evidence he reciprocated. I am confused if to properly execute 180 tactics and disassociate, can that be done AFTER confronting WW about the Affair?
Vinny -- it seems like you have incontrovertible evidence of at least an emotional affair, which is by itself marriage-threatening infidelity. I defer to vets as to whether confronting her is the best play, but, at the end of the day, she's cheated, whether she's done so physically or not.
What do you want to do?
Vinny,
Like JRuss, I don't know whether or not confronting your wife is the right thing to do. I also agree with JRuss that deferring to a vet is probably a good idea. However, I did want to mention, that it seems like many spouses that are having an EA are in complete denial that it's an affair because there is no sex involved. Because of that, in some ways an EA is more difficult to deal with than a PA. If there's a PA, then it's harder to deny that there's an affair. The common excuse that is used in an EA is "just friends." Just be aware that EAs are just as destructive as PAs.
She's in therapy specifically to deal with her feelings for OM and you can see evidence that she is trying to engage more with you and your kids?
That sounds to me like someone who is trying to get over an affair.
I don't see how confronting her is going to help with anything, Usually the point of confronting is to get the spouse to stop the affair, get into therapy, re-engage, and provide transparency (which you are dismissing as "over explaining").
Read DB and work on your issues, but I wouldn't go dark or do LRT or confront.
Thanks JRuss,
I want to confront her. AND I want to save my marriage. But I am prepared to give the ultimatum of working on our marriage or I will leave her.
But I am deciding HOW to confront her. I am deciding between throwing the evidence in her face if I continue to see deciet lying and activity with OM. Knowing that she will flip because I went through her phone to find evidence no matter how calm and collected I am.
OR broaching it where I do not present the evidence to avoid the distraction that I snooped into her private phone. I am thinking of letting her know I KNOW what's going on and See how much she is willing to divulge.
In both cases I plan to tell her it stops NOW and she needs to commit to MC or other form of working on our marriage or I will file for D.
If the affair is not brought up and dealt with then both partners in the marriage are living a lie and there really isn't anything to work on. There is also no marriage to work on if there are more than two people in it. You can't fix a marriage where there is an active affair or a rugswept affair. It must be dealt with the right way or you don't have a chance. Secrets and lies are never the right way. Honesty and transparency is the right way.
Thanks JRuss,
I want to confront her. AND I want to save my marriage. But I am prepared to give the ultimatum of working on our marriage or I will leave her.
But I am deciding HOW to confront her. I am deciding between throwing the evidence in her face if I continue to see deciet lying and activity with OM. Knowing that she will flip because I went through her phone to find evidence no matter how calm and collected I am.
OR broaching it where I do not present the evidence to avoid the distraction that I snooped into her private phone. I am thinking of letting her know I KNOW what's going on and See how much she is willing to divulge.
In both cases I plan to tell her it stops NOW and she needs to commit to MC or other form of working on our marriage or I will file for D.
Good stuff. Option 2 that you presented is better. Never lay all your cards on the table. Let her know just enough that she's sure that you know the truth and you might learn even more truth that you don't know. If she starts to venture down a path of lying just say you and I both know that's not true so please do me the respect of telling me the truth.
There's a David Foster Wallace quote that I like...
The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you.
As someone who has been through this I feel that it's also important to give some advice/insight about your demeanor. Don't be too cold and DON'T explode but do be firm. Be honest. Tell her how badly this revelation has hurt you. Tell her you know the truth so please don't further disrespect you by not being honest with you. Tell her she owes you honesty (because she does). Don't divulge your evidence but share enough that she knows you really know and aren't just fishing. Tell her you will not continue a marriage with an affair going on and you are not interested in being in an open marriage.
Accept your share of the blame for the state of the marriage prior to the A. DO NOT accept any blame for the A itself (because that is 100% her fault).
If you want to save the M then show her the path to do that and be firm about it. First, you better have that path mapped out. Things like 1. Full truth and transparency. Exactly what she did and for how long. 2. Individual counseling for her and you. You to help you understand and heal. Her, so she can figure out why she coped with marriage issues by having an affair. 3. Marriage counseling. This should be done AFTER individual counseling has began. If you don't deal with individual issues then that could sabotage reconciliation.
All these things are just suggestions. You don't have to do any of it but I personally believe them to be helpful. I've weathered this storm myself and we're very much in love today and have an even better partnership than we did before her MLC.
Let's talk about the A, first of all. Hopefully, the OM did not respond to your W, but whether he did or not......she's in an A. It is possible for a woman to be in an emotional affair and the other person not even know about her feelings. There is even a type that is called imaginary affair, where a woman can allow her emotional response to a fictional character to affect her MR, comparing her H to the hero. I know that sounds pretty bizarre, but it happens. It may not be as noticeable to the H as an PA, and he thinks she's just not interested in being intimate. And, an emotional affair can be devastating to a MR, just like a physical affair. They are powerful. Anyway, this A has put her in the therapist's office, so it's serious to her.
I think it really bugs some H's to think his W believes she is pulling the wool over his eyes. I mean, who wants to be the duped H? I can understand that point of view....and if I were in that position, it would be very difficult to keep my mouth shut. But let me tell you that you had better have all the courage you can muster.....and don't give any ultimatums unless you plan to carry through. Once she knows you are on to her......you will have the biggest challenge of your life!
I don't know if I have ever seen a confrontation go the way the H visioned it. For one thing, confrontation, alone, does not accomplish anything except letting her know that you are aware of the A. I know you intend to give her the choice to say she'll work on the M, etc., but you seem to think you are dealing with a rational, logical, sane woman.
There are few times that we hear of a wayward woman who will admit to her A upon confrontation, even if there is evidence staring her in the face. She will deny, deny, and deny some more. She will declare there is nothing to it, that they are just friends, and it's all in your head. So, the fact you want to show the evidence you have.....is completely unnecessary. In fact, don't show her how you obtained your information. Never reveal your source of intel. You can tell her that you know, and it doesn't change the truth by revealing how you came to know. You don't need to prove how you know the truth, when confronting a cheater. Also, don't argue with her. She will try to twist things around and probably go off into blaming you. Try to stick to the subject of just the A, and not discuss the entire marital history (which seems hard to do). Oh btw, never tell her how much you know. She'll try hard to find out just what details you know.
Another point I want to bring out about confrontation is that almost every time (based on the stories on the forum over the years) the wayward wife will insist the M is over and she wants a separation or divorce. If you are ready to dump her, then there should be no problem. The majority of newcomer H's immediately go into pleading with the WW to give the M another chance (or worse, give him another chance).
MC will do absolutely no good, until she ends her A and goes through the emotional withdrawals that follow. She would need to agree to complete transparency in order to earn your trust again. If she gets that far along, then attending MC (dealing with couples after an A) would be advisable. (Probably not the therapist she is currently seeing).
If you are like most men, you are going to confront, whether we agree or not. Just remember, she's likely to slay you with more than you anticipate.
"she professes her love to him and seems to be begging him to get back together"
Maybe I misread, but they were going together and then broke up?
Also, you need to pick up the DB or DR book right away so it'll help you with what to do and what will be coming.
Rose888,
She is in therapy. It she keeps trying to re-engage the OM. He keeps trying her away and she keeps asking why he doesn't want her, and asking to talk and telling him how heartbroken she is that he is disengaged.
I don't know how long this has been going on, but when I think back, she has always been obsessed with him as a friend and college - probably over 5 years!
Update tonight: saw some emails and he apparently attempted to end things for Good Friday night after work. Her message was to him how sad she is that they are no longer "connected." Her exact email:
"I woke up so sad this morning. I know you don't care anymore but it breaks my heart we are not connected anymore. It felt like such a final moment yesterday and made me so depressed because I know it's over. I won't bother you over the weekend but I am so hurt and you are so hurt and it's a terrible place to be. "
she is meeting with him to discuss their "breakup" today and just booked a hotel due to a late night workt event she has in the city by her office (which I know is legit). Her emails to him went on to ask to talk before the event mentioning she had a room but not mentioning that they get together. Her Tone was short cold and to the point.
Rose888,
She is in therapy. It she keeps trying to re-engage the OM. He keeps trying her away and she keeps asking why he doesn't want her, and asking to talk and telling him how heartbroken she is that he is disengaged.
I don't know how long this has been going on, but when I think back, she has always been obsessed with him as a friend and college - probably over 5 years!
Update tonight: saw some emails and he apparently attempted to end things for Good Friday night after work. Her message was to him how sad she is that they are no longer "connected." Her exact email:
"I woke up so sad this morning. I know you don't care anymore but it breaks my heart we are not connected anymore. It felt like such a final moment yesterday and made me so depressed because I know it's over. I won't bother you over the weekend but I am so hurt and you are so hurt and it's a terrible place to be. "
she is meeting with him to discuss their "breakup" today and just booked a hotel due to a late night workt event she has in the city by her office (which I know is legit). Her emails to him went on to ask to talk before the event mentioning she had a room but not mentioning that they get together. Her Tone was short cold and to the point.
Some really good advice here thank you. if I confront and she demands a divorce. I don't want to plead but I want to try and broach giving reconciliation a chance. how do I do this?
Thank you so much for this post. Very helpful and even hopeful. So here's the thing - she is in therapy now. In fact one of the messages I found which was to an old friend of hers says she is in therapy and it is just making her feeling stronger for him. That she loves him more than anyone she has ever known. I now know after researching and
Finding her Other messages to him that are borderline obsessive that she is in Limerence.
If she is seeking help on her own and her feelings are getting stronger, I feel
Like we need a breakthrough of some sort together.
Thank you so much for this post. Very helpful and even hopeful. So here's the thing - she is in therapy now. In fact one of the messages I found which was to an old friend of hers says she is in therapy and it is just making her feeling stronger for him. That she loves him more than anyone she has ever known. I now know after researching and
Finding her Other messages to him that are borderline obsessive that she is in Limerence.
If she is seeking help on her own and her feelings are getting stronger, I feel
Like we need a breakthrough of some sort together.
Don't worry about her proclamations of love for the loser OM. It's not real. It's the fantasy she thinks she's living out in her head. A fantasy he doesn't share. He just wants a side piece so he'll say whatever it takes to make that happen. Once she wanted a real relationship he's pulling back. He doesn't want to mess up his own marriage. Anyway, she's in a fog now and nothing she says can be taken seriously.
I stand by my advice in the earlier post about how to confront.
I have just discovered my wife is having an A. After loosing my mind I did some research and ended up here and other places talking about "Limerence" which describes my WW to a T. I want to try and save the marrriage as I have 2 young children and one has Down syndrome. But I am in turmoil about dealing with this long Limerent process. My wife is in constantly her own world, mood swings, and onky speaks to me to tell me to do something in the house. From what I have read due to the "addiction" you have to let it take its course. Is this true?
Can someone give advice on how to live and deal in an affective matter with Limerence? How long does it last? Is there ANY way to break through without giving up on the marriage?
What makes you think you have super mind powers to break through to her?
Focus on yourself and kids buddy. Do what make you and kids happy. She is wayward and you need to treat her a such ~like an addict. You cannot break through, only she can find herself and even then she might decide not to be with you.
Its hard, it took me months even after physical separating to stop thinking like a lovesick husband. Some dudes/dudettes on this board has hanged on longer.
Read Sandhi's rules. Make a Plan, create your boundary, be the best you [B] for you and your kids[B] not for her. Everything you do will feel counter-intuitive. Thats normal.
Thanks Natus:
Doing the rules now. Question: she doesn't know I know. I need to confront her and let her know right? I'm pretty sure that wil send everything in a tailspin. If she leaves or asks me to leave how do I handle if I want to try and save the marriage?
If she leaves or asks me to leave how do I handle if I want to try and save the marriage?
DO NOT LEAVE - Let her leave, you can not stop her.
I would expect her to spew hatred at first however that may end after a few days or a week or so.
State your boundary and then go silent.
STOP talking and see where it all goes.
I might suggest that for the moment you do nothing until you have read DB and all the homework and are more confidant with yourself.
I will. I am Confused which book to read: divorce busting or divorce remedy?
DB was written first and DR is more updated version of it.
I read both but if you can only get one - I suggest DR.
I need to confront her and let her know right? I'm pretty sure that wil send everything in a tailspin.
You can count on it^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Do you think you are going to confront a WW about her A with OM (that's had for at least 5 years!!) and think she's going to tell you she wants to save the MR? It doesn't work that way. She may be upset with the OM, but she's addicted to him!
Have you read the links Cadet first posted to you? Have you read DR? That's where you need to start, before you think you are going to confront her and she's going to plead with you to give her another chance. I'm not saying you cannot ever address the A, but I am saying you need some DB material under your belt before you jump into something you know nothing about, or unprepared. That's not to say I am supporting her waywardness. I am trying to tell you what you need, first.
Are you still planning on giving her an ultimatum?
I'm really struggling with the ultimatum. I feel there is so much contradictory info. So I took some time just to think about my situation and observe my wife's actions and attitude now that I know what is going on. I feel me detaching is exactly
What she wants. She even told me to go "good For You. Go get a life and get a Girlfriend".
She is so disengaged that even the 180s aren't being noticed. She is literally in her laptop or phone texting every minute of being in the house and paying no attention to the kids. She has completely shut our whole family out. It's so bad my nanny wrote her a letter telling her she is concerned. Her excuse? Same lie as always: "work is crazy." I was watching TV with her and trying to at least engage on some
Level and she was texting. She lied and said it was a girlfriend I know from her work. Who was It really with? Of course him. Complaining that he forgot her birthday (which is today) and that she could care less about all these other people (me my kids and her parents are taking her out this weekend). Her relationship with him is so disfunctional. He calls her craaazy in his texts and constantly jabs at her. And she responds with these child Like reactions of not getting enough attention and that she is going to "go away" only to follow up immediately asking when he can see him. It's unreal to me.
I feel she may be too far gone. It's not just me, she's ignoring her entire LIFE. Just like the rules say She is completely in a fig and unaware of what she's doing. im worried about her well being but most of all my kids. I don't think an ultimatum will
Do anything than send her out the door ASAP probably without blinking an eye. Maybe that is my only move at this point?
I think you are looking for a button to press that is going to make this better in one simple step.
Like an EASY button.
Sorry it does not work that way.
You did not get her with one single step and you do not FIX this without lots of hard work.
Yes you need to learn about detachment and
other DB info.
The point of my post wasn't that's i am looking for a quick solution. It was if confronting her about the A with an ultimatum would be beneficial or not. Based on my observations, she is so far gone I'm not sure what it will accomplish. But I know I have to get this off my chest someway with her. I'm struggling with the right way to do that.
That depends on what "beneficial" means. Getting an A out of the darkness and into the light is always the best policy. Ultimatums are always a risk. I've seen them given here and the other spouse walks. I've seen them work. It worked for me. I just said I won't be married to someone having an A and I filed for divorce. That did the trick in my case and snapped her out of her funk. She realized she still loved me more than she didn't. The thing is, that can go the other way too. They may realize they don't love you anymore. You have to be emotionally prepared for either outcome. That's why detaching is so important. If you follow the guidelines and truly detach (don't fake it, do it) then you create a no-lose situation for yourself. She either goes all-in on the marriage or you get a divorce but either way you move on healthy. The only way to lose, honestly, is to remain in limbo. Limbo is soul sucking and isn't healthy for anyone.
The point of my post wasn't that's i am looking for a quick solution. It was if confronting her about the A with an ultimatum would be beneficial or not
Confrontation,
alone, is not the solution to the problems. Many men think that's all they need to do. I am
not saying you should
not approach her about the A. I am saying that simply telling her you know about the A, is not enough to turn things around. You need to know what you are dealing with, when you confront her. If you confront her, you need to state a boundary about where you stand. A boundary is not the same as a ultimatum. (The link on boundaries explain). Your boundary should be to protect your feelings, and based on your values and beliefs. For example: (And, for gosh sakes, this
only an example, okay?). If you tell her that you won't live in an open M, then she has a choice to make, and you are not controlling her. You are not telling her what to do, but rather telling her what
you will or won't do. The action is strictly yours. If she continues the A, then you prepare to S or D. With that said, never make an idle boundary. She will test it, so be ready to back up your words.
It is not too late, but you need to understand what's going on with her. There are threads about the mindset of WW's, if you care to read them. It may give some insight to your W.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554We want to help you, but you have got to read about what works and doesn't work with a WW, before you jump into just
doing something.
Finish the book ASAP.
'Confrontation, alone, is not the solution to the problems. Many men think that's all they need to do. I am not saying you should not approach her about the A. I am saying that simply telling her you know about the A, is not enough to turn things around.'
Sandi is completely right. Some other non-DB sites or trolls may just tell you that exposure alone is enough to 'wake up' the WAS. In fact there are a couple of recent posters where they issued an ultimatum and their spouses pushed for divorce even quicker. Having patience and knowing when and how to bring up an Uncomfortable subject is key. Patience is not limbo if you know what to do with your time.
Great advice. I am getting the. Ok tomorrow and will read ASAP! You guys are explaining my wife to a T. I need to get real with. Oundries and respect.
Question: Sandi you talk a lot about boundaries and holding firm on consequences. But you also admit you cannot punish them like one of your kids. So what are acceptable consequences? Say my wife disrespects me in front of my kids and that's my boundary, Im Struggling with a tangible consequence other than kicking her out or
Leaving. Don't think I can do that every time we have an encounter.
Boundaries are not "punishment". They are the actions that you will not tolerate and the consequences tied to them that only you can control. You are not controlling your spouse, they are free to do whatever they wish, but it's what you establish is best for you.
Vinny76 - in the specific case you mention you can politely point out that you won't stand to be talked down to that way. If she persists (and probably will), make a point of leaving the room stating that this isn't a healthy conversation and you'll wait until she is able to speak to you like an adult.
In most cases that I've read it takes a few tries but most spouses will learn.
That boundary protects you and defines the actions you will take for yourself. In my case whenever my W would bring up topics that related to OM I would state "change the subject please" and she would.
I'm reading the DR book. Good stuff but more questions!
As I think about my plan Im looking for advice on the GAL part:
My wife and I both work full time but she works an hour and a half away and we have 2 kids - one with special needs. Until I knew she was having an affair, I had no problem biting the bullet and getting home for bedtime etc. as the weeks progressed she's getting home later and later and more frequently late - obviously I now know WHY.
So, as I figure out how And when to confront my wife (and even after I confront her), how do I GAL if I'm Detached and letting her "do what she wants" which will result in her staying out whenever she wants however late she wants. Do I need to work with her and mandate I get 1-2 nights per week? Obviously she thinks I THINK she's just working late.
Also before I found out about the A, she literally said I need to get a life and get hobbies and friends and stop being emotionally caught up in her. I bring this up because I'm wondering if I need to skip the detachment and go right to the last resort techniques? I kind of feel detachment will play right into her fantasy of her not having to feel guilty while she runs around with the OM.
Maybe you need to ask her to start carrying some weight around the house in respect to your kids. But that would be confrontational.
Since she already asked you to get hobbies and stuff i would tell her that you want to make time to hit the gym/take classes/whatever X times a week. Whats the best day/ times she can make it home from work to look after the kids.
I kind of feel detachment will play right into her fantasy of her not having to feel guilty while she runs around with the OM.
She already ran around with OM. Sorry but you really should be focusing on how you feel not what she feels.
I think you need to really read the DR book and study it. It seems like you're asking alot of questions from someone who just started reading it.
Question: Sandi you talk a lot about boundaries and holding firm on consequences. But you also admit you cannot punish them like one of your kids.
Whatever you decide will be a boundary to protect you physically, emotionally or mentally, is not effective without a resulting consequence for the one who may dishonor or ignore the boundary. What happens in the boys locker room when a guy won't stand up for himself? What happens when you tolerate a bully?
Remember, the purpose is not to control the other person's life....it is about protecting yourself.
Struggling with a tangible consequence other than kicking her out or Leaving. Don't think I can do that every time we have an encounter.
Let's say the WW phones you and begins to curse at you and calling you every vile name in the book. Can you think of a boundary? How about stating something like......."
I will not listen while being disrespected over the phone". Then, if she says anything offensive toward you or starts yelling, etc.......what could you do as an effective consequence for her calling you on the phone and being disrespectful? You simply hang up the phone. No goodbyes, no discussions about it, no negotiations, no warnings, no pleading, and no apology.
Please read the link Cadet provided on boundaries. It should help you.
I will add this, that an ineffective boundary is no boundary at all.
Thanks for the advice.
So I've read the entire DR book. I feel like I am in the experiment phase of figuring out what works and what doesn't. over the past few weeks I have detached and started to GAL working out and going out with friends. she is definenently responding. Or so I think. I remember what you said Sandi about the WW and how manipulative they can be. Here is what I am now experiencing based on my actions.
I started by Truely detaching. Thinking her more as a good friend rather than spouse. Not letting her actions effect me and not initiating much engagement. Also I have GAL, working out etc. She has all of a sudden become very into telling me about her day in detail. Also, if she's out late I find her overexplaining to me what she's doing and why. She has been throwing things into the conversation that allude to the future such as, "when we retire we're going to have a buddy with us! (alluding to my son with Down syndrome)". It's all in a positive tone. I feel she is perhaps leaving bread crumbs to keep me at bay or she suspects I may know about the affair as I STILL haven't confronted her. (Yes I know this is bad). Even though it might be a bit disengenious, isn't this progress? At least we are engaging in conversation!
I am struggling with the right time to bring up the A.With the momentum I have I'm worried about derailing by bringing up the A and have the small progress I'm seeing unravel. Is waiting in this situation a bad idea?
I suggest you think of her as if she is an elderly person renting a room in your house, or a nosy neighbor. Thinking of her as though she's a friend, IMO, is not healthy. She is not your friend. She is betraying you.
Also I have GAL, working out etc.
It's good you are working out, but GAL for
real.
She has all of a sudden become very into telling me about her day in detail. Also, if she's out late I find her overexplaining to me what she's doing and why. She has been throwing things into the conversation that allude to the future such as, "when we retire we're going to have a buddy with us! (alluding to my son with Down syndrome)". It's all in a positive tone.
And do you play along with this little game? She does this to keep blinders on you as long as possible. Believe none of it.
I feel she is perhaps leaving bread crumbs to keep me at bay or she suspects I may know about the affair as I STILL haven't confronted her. (Yes I know this is bad). Even though it might be a bit disengenious, isn't this progress? At least we are engaging in conversation!
How can you see engaging in conversation as progression, when she is lying to you.....and sleeping with OM?
Are you working on your boundaries?
Working on them but Some if the boundaries are tough.
She does things that are hard to create boundries around. Example: we both have high paying jobs. She makes more money than I do, but we are both accomplished. She refuses to engage in meaningful conversation with me around my job. And when around our mutual friends she'll talk about careers jobs etc with my guy friends. The second I engage in the conversation she turns off and walks away or disengages with the convo. It's super disrespectful but not sure how to create boundaries with something like that without whining That I demand respect. Just 1 example but most of the issues I have are more from a dismissive perspective than with confrontations.
My other issue is around our family. Just today we went out shopping with the 4 of us and literally the second my son or daughter do anything beyond being perfect (their kids for gods sake), she starts hemming and hawing about how much of a disaster being all together is. What MOTHER says that!!! It fires me
Up every time, usually with me attacking back. Today I calmly tried to address it by saying although my son was acting up a bit, it wasn't bad and she shouldn't suggest not being together as a family. She snapped back with how "strange" I am and for me to" get real" that no one is happy when we're all together and for us to divide and conquer with the kids (I always end up with my son who is way more challenging.) I struggle here because it's always in front of the kids and although I don't want to engage in a fight but sometimes I do. I know
I shouldn't. Would an appropriate boundary be to tell her I won't tolerate and take
The kids away from where she is?
She refuses to engage in meaningful conversation with me around my job.
So? She doesn't want to talk to you. This isn't something you put a boundary on. Its petty because you feel she's bruising your ego. Go and talk to someone else. That's all.
So I have to say after reading the book, I am bit confused. I am struggling between the following strategies:
1. Book: Become the best version of me and "be happy" at all times but detach. Listen to her intently when she talks to me and make eye contact, and show her someone who she wants to be with.
2. Sandis rules: Detach, remove myself from her everyday - act civilly when addressed but do not engage with her, cut off contact during the day. Make her feel I am moving on and make her feel my absence.
How can you be happy, lovingly detach and show her the best version of "you" AND follow the rules of detachment outlined by Sandi and making her feel your absence by removing yourself from all activities to the point she feels you are not there?
Vinny76 - Yes it does seem confusing and contradictory. I will admit that I've not read back closely into your situation so my advice may be off but I have noticed your posts and followed along a bit.
First - being the best version of "you" is first and foremost for you and not for your W. It isn't something you flash around or brag about, it's something that you do as you become the best man you can be. Even though I'm not a particular fan, I will often listen to Michael Jackson's "Man in the Mirror" when I'm struggling. Be the man in the mirror you can admire.
Secondly - Your W will notice the changes but if she thinks the changes are being done to lure her back she'll dismiss it as "too little too late" or even worse "pathetic". Again, any changes you make are for you.
With detachment it doesn't mean ignoring her or being rude. It means living your life as best as you can on your own without being dependant on her for you approval. If she engages you, be kind and considerate but keep a boundary between you. Remember, she's fired you as a H and she doesn't "deserve" to be treated as a W. She has to earn that back again. Until then, be the best you can be and show her the strong, confident Vinny76 that you will become.
1. Book: Become the best version of me and "be happy" at all times but detach. Listen to her intently when she talks to me and make eye contact, and show her someone who she wants to be with.
2. Sandis rules: Detach, remove myself from her everyday - act civilly when addressed but do not engage with her, cut off contact during the day. Make her feel I am moving on and make her feel my absence.
I would be interested in knowing which rules say this ^^^^^^^. Which rules do you see as contradiction to what MWD has written?
I think I'm getting the LRT confused with the rules.
So now I'm TRYING to do my thing and let her do hers but our family dynamic is hard to deal with. Example:
We usually split the kids up on weekend to run errands etc. so looking back, SHE has been GAL before me and doing what she can on weekends to avoid me and my son. Therefore, I feel like unless I confront her about taking the two kids while I "do what I want" it's biz as usual. Obviously I'm going to start filling my days with things I want to do and keep me busy vs running her errands but she is inflicting her Will on me through the kids. My son is hard to take out and do things with because he has special needs. It's a lot of work! And she has pawned that responsibility on me. Making her life easier on the weekends by doing what she wants with our daughter.
I feel like I'm making progress here but am struggling with these key household dynamics and how to break out of them or make them work better for me.
She has started to Get OVERLY chatty with me about work. Telling me she has no one else to talk to. (But getting home later and later every night). She walked in front of me and the TV the other night when I wouldn't really pay attention or non-chelotly answer her questions and demanded to know why I wouldn't talk to her. I responded very politely but shortly that it wasn't for any reason.
I feel like the tension with her not knowing if I know about the affair is eating at her. Should I just keep doing what I'm doing? Or should I get the A out in the open. Let her know I know. I called the hotline and they said I should lay out an "invitation" to her to rejoin the marriage. I don't think this is a good call and doesn't feel right. Anyone in this situation I am in of knowing about their spouse A but not confronting them yet?
You seem to have confrontation on your brain. As I've said previously, just confronting her will not change anything. You have to have something along with the confrontation. Same thing about boundaries. You are wanting to control her on everything from how she doesn't talk to you in a group, to how she deals with the kids.
The second I engage in the conversation she turns off and walks away or disengages with the convo. It's super disrespectful but not sure how to create boundaries with something like that without whining That I demand respect. Just 1 example but most of the issues I have are more from a dismissive perspective than with confrontations.
If you start crowing like a rooster about demanding respect, she's going to hit you with more than you know how to handle, b/c you don't even know how to deal with these things.
We usually split the kids up on weekend to run errands etc. so looking back, SHE has been GAL before me and doing what she can on weekends to avoid me and my son. Therefore, I feel like unless I confront her about taking the two kids while I "do what I want" it's biz as usual. Obviously I'm going to start filling my days with things I want to do and keep me busy vs running her errands but she is inflicting her Will on me through the kids. My son is hard to take out and do things with because he has special needs. It's a lot of work! And she has pawned that responsibility on me. Making her life easier on the weekends by doing what she wants with our daughter.
Just like confrontations, demanding respect,....or.telling her you won't tolerate something she's doing is a JOKE if you don't have something to reinforce your words. If I were your WW and the first time you told me you demanded something or wasn't going to tolerate my behavior..........I would probably laugh in your face, and then I'd get very angry.......and I know you don't really want your W to be mad at you. So, THEN what would your next step be?
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to get you to see that your confrontations, demands, boundaries, etc. have no power if all you can do is speak and hope for the best. A WW is going to test your boundaries, so what would be a consequence to her walking away from a group when you start talking? Actually, I think there are other more important issues, but if you feel disrespected, how would you address this as a boundary, and what are you prepared to do if she chooses to not honor it?
First of all, have you clearly told her how it makes you feel? B/c if you have never brought up the issue, then she doesn't know. The first step is to make sure she knows you want it to stop.
I agree with Bond, it seems a bit petty. And the situation with her wanting to separate the kids.........well, that could be seen as petty, too.........except if she really isn't spending time with her son, then there could be a deeper problem. However, I don't see how you can put it in the category of boundary setting. It sounds too much like controlling, to me. How much has this topic ever been discussed?
I hope you won't think I am picking at you. It takes time to get some of these things down right. If you have never stood up to her about things you didn't appreciate and/or tell her she is wrong..........then you have to be realistic and not expect her to take kindly to it. This is what happens when a H is too afraid to open his mouth, and then he thinks he can start crowing about his boundaries and everything will just fall into place. You can and should have boundaries, don't get me wrong. Eventually, she may respect you for standing up like a man. Considering she is having an affair, I think that's where you need to start.
For the record, are you willing to live in an open M? If not, what would the consequences be if that boundary was not honored? Just think about. Don't do something stupid before testing it out with the board first.
It sounds like your wife might be struggling with the reality of having a special needs kid. I know it can be rough on a marriage. Have you ever sought counseling for that issue?
Also, if both of you have successful careers, could you hire some help to reduce stress in other areas to give both of you more mental and emotional resources to deal with your son?
She doesn't spend time with our son. It feels she has grouped us together as the "stress" in her life that she doesn't want to be around or deal with. Every weekend is calculated to the point she shares the two of us as little as possible.
I don't mind the "tough love" here but I do need help on successful boundaries to set. I have NOT told her how I feel and your right - I should start there. But they are also just words.
My obsession with confrontation is that the secret of the A I am holding is driving me crazy to be honest with you - and stopping me from at least getting everything out in the open. No matter where it leads. I feel every day is a mind game because we are both living a lie - she with the affair and me with the secret of knowing. I can't imagine this is positive!
Rose888-
I do think that my son's situation has something to do with it. I feel like if we ever get to the point of repairing our marriage - that will become a big issue in therapy. She has major guilt about not wanting to be with him. I know this from the past.
Right now we have a ways to go to even begin to broach that subject and try to repair it. My
Wife has always "run" from emotionally heavy subjects.
We have TONS of great help. And we leverage it as much as possible. But for the last year leading to where we are my wife avoided us going out alone together as a couple. I now know why.
You do realize that everything you "observe" or point out in terms of flaws or what she does or isn't doing is more of your control. You say she doesn't pay attention to you so you ignore her to control her to pay more attention. Then when she does, you say she pays TOO much attention to you but not in the way you'd like. Just seems like you're playing a game.
Vinny 76. I really feel for you and there is lots of good advice here and you should listen to them i.e. Sandi2, TxHubby, Rosse88, etc.
I want to tell you my story - just for interest. I did everything wrong, but I'm OK with the result. I suspected my W was having an affair. I begged and pleaded for her to tell me the truth. She kept telling me she was not. Her behavior and actions said otherwise. I started snooping on her phone and saw convo's between her and a man. Very personal, flirty, etc.
So I started asking very direct questions and the lies continued. Well, when I was at the end of my rope.
I told her I hired hackers who sent me screen grabs of her convos between her and the OM. That was not true - but it was the only way she would tell me the truth. Well she was horrified. She told me a little about him, she told me that it was not a PA. She did not think there was anything wrong.
She contacted him and told him that I had hired hackers to expose the relationship.
Then I contacted him via social media and told him I needed to speak to him (He was far away in the U.S.A.). I got him on the phone. He told me it was not a PA. He agreed he should not have been having personal conversations with a married woman. Then he dropped her like a stone. He has not spoken to her since. After we went In House Sep, she tried to reconnect with him. I contacted him and he blocked her.
The best thing I did was confront him and told him to leave my wife alone. I really felt good after I did that. You can get really brave over the phone knowing there are 1000's of KM between you.
My bluff worked - as she blinked and confessed.
The consequence was - He dropped her. So she did feel it.
I was "Lucky" in some respects. Everything I did was wrong. To this day W still says it was not an EA it was a friendship. Despite the fact it was a secret, personal, flirty, etc.
So listen to the vets - confront at great peril - but if you do, be ready for an outcome you did not expect.
You're really struggling with GAL. The key to lovingly detaching is to do things for yourself that will build your confidence, your happiness and your inner peace. Before you met your wife what were things you enjoyed doing? Re-visit the Vinny and get to know him again. That is the man your wife fell in love with, more importantly that is who you truly were before the challenges of building a marriage and juggling the responsibilities of a family.
You need respite from being the primary parent, so arrange child care one evening a week and then get out. Let your wife know you are re-investing in yourself and the child care is set up if she stays out late. Be mysterious, if she ask a lot of questions just give her basic answers, don't elaborate. Your goal is not to get her notice, it is to get yourself centered and give your brain in some respite from the trauma and pain of finding out your wife is wayward. Then purposely do things with just you and the kids, enjoy THEM. But don't make this your only focus or you will get caretaker fatigue, I am speaking from pure experience here. Your parents deserve the best, right? Therefore they deserve to have their primary parent (you) be at his most mental and physical fitness.
You're kids deserve the best, right?*
Correction from previous post
My obsession with confrontation is that the secret of the A I am holding is driving me crazy to be honest with you - and stopping me from at least getting everything out in the open.
Nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and confront her about the affair. What do you plan on saying past the part of telling her you know?
No matter where it leads. I feel every day is a mind game because we are both living a lie - she with the affair and me with the secret of knowing. I can't imagine this is positive!
No matter where it leads? Okay, does that mean you are prepared to S and/or D?
I think I know how your W must feel when you are ignoring what she tries to tell you.
I talk a little on this topic on my posts... My situation was different, but what i did what talk about letting my wife go and realizing that people are free to make their own choices even if they are married. I told my W in a very calm way that I could tell we were not as close and that I did not own her and I could let her go and be free to make her own choices and I would make mine of course.... something like that. I said this over a couple of days as we talked. Over the days, she started to realize I must know something.... or I was really noticing that we had drifted apart. The fact that I was ready to separate (I did not mention D, just let her go...) or just how in the towel impacted her to start having discussions. After a week (which is fast) I could tell that she wanted to work on the R, and I simply asked her to write down what would be important to her if we just met and we were starting new..... A few days after that I let he know I knew about A... In my situations, I think she was going to end it anyway.... (so case by case, and others on here have more experience than me....) But I can tell you my posture, words, delivery were extremely calm but very serious and she knew I was.... Luckily so far for me... she wants to stay with me....
Hey buddy, i got to echoe Sandi here. To confront or not is up to you however its not the end goal. It wont necessarily fix anything and are you ready for the fallout separation or divorce especially if she wont stop seeing OM.
You really have to detach, make a plan, what can life be like for you and son without W. Can you do that no matter how difficult, can you seek happiness for yourself and your son.
one of the things i love right now despite being separated is my S5 and i are closer than ever. I spend my waking hours trying to him and me happy.
You need to prepare yourself. Like Steady9 says, once you are willing to let go things change.
Each situation is different and the aftermath of an action can be very different.I understand how this is eating you. In most cases confrontation leads to separation.BBe prepared and willing to do that. Confronting just to say you know is not enough. You need to state you will not be in a R with her if there is another person. You need to know your boundary and be willing and able to enforce the appropriate consequence if crossed.
Only you can decide your line of action but be aware that confrontation rarely results in an immediate turnaround in cheating spouse. It can be necessary to step up and confront. In fact many will advise it is your only option if you want to save yourself and your M.
It is not your only option but there are no easy options:
1 you could carry on ignoring A and learn to deal with it eating you up. I personally don't see that as a viable long term option bit is OK whilst preparing your next step.
2. Confront. Regain some pride at the risk of ending your M. It is a risk but a M with a third person is not a M worth having. Regardless of the aftermath this does not mean you will not reconcile later.
3. Do not confront but let her go. You live your life as if you do not want anything more to do with her. Basically you distance yourself or drop her without a big explication.
Just remember in all of this that the A is a symptom of a bigger underlying unhappy situation. Ending it does not automatically mean she will recommit to you.
If you cannot live like this, put together a plan . Prepare for the worst, though hope for the best. Regardless of your W, you need to work on you. Without belittling an A (I am not, it is huge) but don't let it consume you to the point that you are not working on you and your goals.
Best wishes
Thank you everyone! Can I ask what the term cake eating refers to? I assume it's the wife getting the best of both worlds from the marriage and A.
Another question:
As I detach (I'm getting there!) the biggest speed bump I'm hitting is on tag teaming with wife when it come to kids. As I've stated they are a handful and we at times work very well as "a team" with the kids during times like bedtime morning routines and weekends. While in the midst of this she will ask me to do things and I will of her as well. This feels contradictory to some of the advice I have read in other posts in detaching- where you should almost act as if they are already gone. How do I act in these scenarios? At times I feel it is completely fine others I feel It is cake eating. But it involves my kids so I'm super sensitive in how to behave and act when we are inevitably in these scenarios. . Should I just check out at the risk of looking like a bad father? Should I continue as always? Somewhere in between? I feel these situations are stopping me from fully detaching especially since I'm emotionally ready to!!!!
Thank you everyone! Can I ask what the term cake eating refers to? I assume it's the wife getting the best of both worlds from the marriage and A.
Bingo. Having your cake and eating too.
It's a win/win for her.
After being caught up in the post. Sandi said something in 1 line that sums it up I think. It's when she referred to knowing what your wife meant about you not listening/hearing.
I get the vibe that you don't really intend to do anything that you don't personally think will work and will end up doing what you want regardless of advice. This is certainly your right. You can do what's right or do what works. Your call. I'm just shocked this post is almost 7 pages of people telling you it won't be productive and could be detrimental and you are still leaning towards getting in that water.
Another question:
As I detach (I'm getting there!) the biggest speed bump I'm hitting is on tag teaming with wife when it come to kids. As I've stated they are a handful and we at times work very well as "a team" with the kids during times like bedtime morning routines and weekends. While in the midst of this she will ask me to do things and I will of her as well. This feels contradictory to some of the advice I have read in other posts in detaching- where you should almost act as if they are already gone. How do I act in these scenarios? At times I feel it is completely fine others I feel It is cake eating. But it involves my kids so I'm super sensitive in how to behave and act when we are inevitably in these scenarios. . Should I just check out at the risk of looking like a bad father? Should I continue as always? Somewhere in between? I feel these situations are stopping me from fully detaching especially since I'm emotionally ready to!!!!
You must have misread. Detaching isn't the same as NC. Detaching has nothing to do with kids. You will still ofcourse communicate about the kids and anything pressing financially. When it's said about communicating about the kids it's the big stuff. Not a cute pic text or something like that. It's more of you backing way off and not initiating contact. When she initiates you are polite but not overly.
Another question:
As I detach (I'm getting there!) the biggest speed bump I'm hitting is on tag teaming with wife when it come to kids. As I've stated they are a handful and we at times work very well as "a team" with the kids during times like bedtime morning routines and weekends. While in the midst of this she will ask me to do things and I will of her as well. This feels contradictory to some of the advice I have read in other posts in detaching- where you should almost act as if they are already gone. How do I act in these scenarios? At times I feel it is completely fine others I feel It is cake eating. But it involves my kids so I'm super sensitive in how to behave and act when we are inevitably in these scenarios. . Should I just check out at the risk of looking like a bad father? Should I continue as always? Somewhere in between? I feel these situations are stopping me from fully detaching especially since I'm emotionally ready to!!!!
Can you give some specific situations?
Hello all. I am a previous poster that found evidence of an in going affair my wife has been involved in (she is unaware I know). My previous thread was a lot of back and forth on my struggles with confrontation - all of which blinded me from the advice many of the vets were giving me. I removed myself from the thread to absorb some of the 2x4s and take their advice and (try to) implement. Detachment GAL, boundaries, etc.
Now I am posting 4 months later to share my situation and hopefully get some insight and maybe provide some info that will relate - if not help - others.
My journey has been (as expected) up and down. Out of the gate I just started distracting myself. Doing whatever I could to keep my mind off the anger for my WW and her disregard for me, my family and her obsession with OM.
That turned into becoming somewhat detached. I became somewhat independent of her controlling nature and started to feel and understand how much she was actually suppressing me as a person. They talk about the fog of the WW. I realized I was in a fog myself!!! I started to look back at how I was treated through the years and I couldn't believe how I could allow my persona and aura to be snuffed out - it happened slowly but surely but she methodically was knocking me down, and then it quickly turned into her pushing me aside to build a new infrastructure for herself - money friends, etc. She does as little as possible in terms of quality time for kids - instead spends time online buying them clothes or signing them up for weekend or after school activities (she constantly proclaims that's how she shows her love.) Her "family" felt like it was a chore to her. A responsibility she needs to fulfill with little to no enjoyment. To give some quick background: my wife and I have had problems for about 6 years now which started out, as I thought, as stress with two working parents, with two kids and one with significant special needs. What I have come to find is she has been involved in affair with an ex boss of hers - that I know - for years (how many I don't know).
Anyways - Ultimate betrayal for me, and I am able to look to the past and what is happening in the present with new clarity.
I plan to post more on what has transpired over the past few months, but the one thing I wanted to throw out within this specific post is something in our past that really hit me between the eyes. I have unknowingly "DB'd" successfully TWICE in our past.I am curious what some of the vets think of this:
First: when we were first dating, she had an ex BF of about 7 years. We broke up after about 6 months of dating and she went back to the old BF. I pursued lightly for a few months to no avail, and finally let her go and moved on. Long story short: I stopped pursuing, she purses me lightly, and one night saw me out and not paying attention to her and it drove her crazy. She pursed me with a full court press and we began dating again - (this time for good). She admitted to me she was seeing him the last month of our first dating experience and that why she pushed me away. (She made me break up with her as she didn't have the stones, she pushed me away to the point it was obvious she didn't want to be with me.)
Before I move on OBVIOUSLY a sign of things to come. Cheating, dismissal and unable to face me about the situation just push my buttons until I LEAVE. makes
Me the bad guy. The true detachment drew her back.
Second: this was 3 years ago. We were having issues and we were stressed to move into a better town for better schools for our son with Special needs. We sold our house, and moved into an appt. for a year while our dream house was being built in the town we loved. At that point I was so happy to have sold our old house, my career was taking off, and I designated to bring nothing but positive energy and confidence to everything in my life. I became much more assertive (positively) about our organizing our lives, planning our free time together and being a bit more alpha male. She took notice almost immediately, and could tell she was drawn to me. She is VERY closed always has been with serious topics or her feelings. And has never extended an olive branch to make things better between us. But after a few weeks she came to me, sat me down, and said she wanted to be better for me and wanted to work things out by going to a therapist to figure herself out a bit. She was very positive about it. Here is the important part - my reaction: I was floored she would mention the dirty word "therapy" my mindset was that was just for people who had real issues and CERTAINLY not something WE or SHE needed. We just need some positive momentum to get us back on track right? Anyways I reacted very taken aback and questioning her what she meant, why she would need to go to therapy to be with me and to be happy. She was obviousky upset with my reaction to what she thought was a "good thing". Sarcastically telling me "thanks for the support". I immediately changed my tune and became super supportive but I think the damage was done. From there she began therapy and wouldn't tell me ANYTHING about it - only telling me "I think I'm pretty screwed up, probably need medication." From there it was all down hill - we moved into our dream house and she went from "Luke warm" to completely distant overnight. It was like she was holding out for us to move in this house to totally turn on me.
So in this last experience, I see that my unintentional "DBing" drew her back to me as she was reaching out for help - and now I know she was dealing with the OM - I had totally smashed the "lighthouse". I burned a bridge of providing her support and solice.
What is obvious based on my other posts she is now in therapy to try and repai her relationship with him (not me). Anyways that is neither here nor there. I have had some success and failures with. Iundaries and detaching, and I have chosen to NOT confront about the affair - just apply DB techniques - all in an attempt to repair myself and benefit my wellbeing.
The point of my post really is if I've had to do this twice already, perhaps there is nothing left to save.
Has anyone encountered a R with similar situations?
Vinny, is interesting you bring up your post (unwitting) DB success. When my H and I were saying, we broke up twice. Each time he came back after I went dark.
I'm no expert, as I'm going through the separation process now, but I'd say don't give up. It doesn't really follow that there is nothing left to save. If you recognize done of the things you can do differently and be better at them, you should DB to stabilize things them work on the aspects of the MR after that. IMHO.
The point of my post really is if I've had to do this twice already, perhaps there is nothing left to save.
Has anyone encountered a R with similar situations?
I think that becomes YOUR choice on it.
It is not unusual for their to be lots of confusion at the start of a WAS/WAW/MLC.
Part of DB'ing is how you put things back together.
Their was a poster here about 12 years ago, that I know, that had her husband come and go 8 times before it became permanent. So you are not the first to have this scenario.
Hey everyone. I promised to give an update so here it is:
The past few months have been a rollercoaster. Leading into the Holidays, I was starting to get a hang of detaching and talking to a DB counselor. I was trying to get the hang of "lovingly" detaching (still am).
Anyways, at this time I was detaching with some success BUT still snooping. I found my wife being extremely friendly, as I tried to validate engage when talked to, but still keep her a bit at a distance. With all this said, I began to see my situation from a neutral perspective without emotion. I began to see the possibilities of a life without my wife - and I began to see she was not the person I thought.
This mindset of mine continued for several weeks until a week before xmas. It is here where I started to cave. I was getting caught up in her friendliness and giving my kids one last great xmas as a family. I didn't pursue, but I did start to engage in talks of the future and do things with her and make plans around her again. Sounds great until I snooped and found her declaring her devotion to OM and that she would always love him more than anything no matter how little they could be together or see each other. Boom reality check.
Her attitude continued positive until we went to her sisters for the week of xmas. She lives in NC and the minute we got there, she shut down. Didn't engage with any family activities all week. And I was reminded of the self absorbed person my wife has become. She literally missed out on all the big things small things that make spending time with your family specia - so she could surf the internet and needlessly check in at work.
We work a lot - and the fact she could care less with a sacred week off to spend time with her family is mind boggling to me. This angers me more than our own broken relationship - that she is literally throwing away and refusing to engage in special moments that you can never get back with your children. What kind of mother does this??? Needless to say I was smacked in the face with the reality that things were not getting better and probably weren't.
After the new year things have gone south fast. I have found myself on a rollercoaster. From being loving and positive but detached - to cold and distant. I know it's bad but I can't seem to keep my mood straight. My wife noticed and stared to ask me what the hell is wrong with me, and in more aggressive terms: you better watch your atttitude or else. I react very distant with these confrontations. Usually with a "nothing's wrong" or an "ok".
So the latest twist. During one of my cold and distant days, my wife brought up the possibility of me being able to sleep in our bed again (yes, she feels completely in the right to not let me sleep there - says I snore and that she can't sleep with other people in bed.). My reactions was uninterested. To this she asked me flat out and very matter of fact with no emotion: "are you planning to leave me?" She asked in a way that she almost wanted me to say yes. She caught me off guard and I think I gave the worst answer I could have possibly given. I said "no I don't want to. Where would I go?" I feel I missed a good opportunity to address the affair here with a dumb answer that made me look pathetic and needy. She has since that encounter almost completely shut down. I really feel I lost traction and am reeling. I have no momentum...
I am feeling some of the benefits of detaching, working on my life and self esteem a bit more, but living with my wife with two kids to care for - is making it very hard to be consistent with my actions. I feel this has been my biggest downfall. For both the hope of my relationship and my own well-being. Help.
It sounds like you still didn't fully understand the DR book you read and didn't come up with any goals. That's why you're stuck. You've just made it so you don't fight but you haven't done anything beyond that. What are your goals and your timeline?
You're right about my goals. I have really struggled with goals beyond working on myself: going to the gym and eating better, focusing on my career to ensure it's in a good place (I'm having job issues right now), going out once a week with friends. Those are more ACTIONS than goals. Again I am struggling to define them. I have been really focused on TRYING to detach correctly. I'm going to go back to the book like you suggest and think about more tangible reachable goals.
As for a timeline - I do not have one. I keep trying to just become more comfortable with the fact we may not be together and trying to tackle the realities that come with that (kids finances etc.) I reached out to a lawyer this morning.
The latest is that I have found out that she has ended her A with the OM. She wanted to keep it going, he did not. And she is spiraling into a deep depression about it.
I remember something from Sandi2 talking about the withdrawal phase after an A has ended. Similar to an addict. I can see things are going to get a lot harder. She has gone cold and I can see the anger and resentment building toward me again. I'm going to play it as cool as I can and try to to be to distant but not allow her to enge me in her mental warfare. Does anyone have experience with the WW when they are reeling after an affair that want to keep going, ends? I have not seen a lot of that here.
The latest is that I have found out that she has ended her A with the OM. She wanted to keep it going, he did not. And she is spiraling into a deep depression about it.
Stay away from that one, my friend. She's on her own road. Don't offer a shoulder or help.
I can see things are going to get a lot harder. She has gone cold and I can see the anger and resentment building toward me again. I'm going to play it as cool as I can and try to to be to distant but not allow her to enge me in her mental warfare. Does anyone have experience with the WW when they are reeling after an affair that want to keep going, ends? I have not seen a lot of that here.
The only way I can figure that anger and resentment is being built towards you is if you had a hand in the ending of her affair. Regardless, don't let it bother you.
There is nothing you can or should do in her case. Remember, she left you and the marriage to be with someone else, including sleeping with them. Sorry to put that in there, but so many times on here people are willing to overlook that aspect. That's the ultimate disrespect. The question that you should be asking yourself is why do you want to do anything that could help her?
Her anger and resentment toward me is what led to me becoming suspicious. It is her rewriting history to make everything my fault to justify her A. Not to say some things ARENT my fault but her choosing to have the affair is not my fault and she has totally skew her perception of me to justify.
Good question in terms of why I would want to help her. I guess it's not helping her as much as trying to figure out how to DB around it. The more I detach the further away she gets. Part of me is fighting with the rationale of it all. In my case I think she uses it as logs on her fire that I am in the wrong. In short I feel my detaching is just quickening the process for her to come to a conclusion that she never wants to be back with me.
I guess it's the point. She needs to follow this road on her own and I have to live with the fact - and be prepared for - that her road might be a one way street to her never wanting to consider trying to save our marriage.
Her anger and resentment toward me is what led to me becoming suspicious. It is her rewriting history to make everything my fault to justify her A. Not to say some things ARENT my fault but her choosing to have the affair is not my fault and she has totally skew her perception of me to justify.
Vinny,
Rewriting history is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I understand the cognitive dissonance created when the WAS is vilifying the LBS in order to create emotional distance, but they also seem to truly believe the nonsense that they spew. It's hard to wrap your mind around it; I wouldn't believe that someone could be so removed from reality except for the fact that I lived through it myself.
So I got home tonight and my wife is literally not talking to me. I am now seriously thinking she will ask for some sort of separation or divorce. It's making me think of how I should react to that? I obviously have no choice but to accept, but no idea what I would should do if it happens. I guess I'll figure it out in the moment?
It is very important you work out a script of validation while controlling your reactions to her. Remain detached in that you don't react to her spew or bait to argue. Instead remain gentle and compassionate while also firm. You can even agree that the marriage isn't salvageble at this moment but you also will not aid in getting a hasty divorce. As a matter of fact you will not seek the divorce yourself. If she wants the divorce then she must do all the heavy lifting. In the meantime don't always be home when she gets home, go hang with friends and fill you time (and head) with them, smile and mean it. Fake it 'til you make it. Remind me of what kind of guy you were before you met your wife? Are you like that now or now completely codependent on another human being for your self worth?
Good advice PsySara. Thank you.
I am not the same but who is after 12 years of maturity! I feel like I can be a bit more alpha like I was back then, but I am not drastically different. In terms of co-dependency. As bad as things are I think we are still co dependent on each other. This life stage is hard - all my friends are married with kids - no time to hang with a guy who wants to get out of the house. With that said I do have a few people who I can manage to get out once or twice a week.
The more I detach the further away she gets.
Things sometimes get worse before they get better.
Did you ever hear of Kate Middleton and her breakup with the Prince before they got married?
She basically DB'ed him and he then wanted her more.
DB is counter intuitive.
The harder you grab a bar of wet soap the more it slips a way.
Let Go
understand the cognitive dissonance created when the WAS is vilifying the LBS in order to create emotional distance, but they also seem to truly believe the nonsense that they spew. It's hard to wrap your mind around it;
Know how when people start lying to cover themselves and then eventually tell it so much its second nature to them? Same here.
Thanks Cadet.
As I do this I wonder if anyone has any advice around goal setting? Should all goals be around bettering myself and my situation? i am struggling here to set tangible goals beyond "working out" and "trying to get out with friends".
on another note, my wife is going out to dinner with her one "work friends" who I know is one of her enablers of the A and the OM. I anticipate tons of mud slinging about me and a potential straw breaking the camels back tonight or this weekend between us. I can sense it's coming with her behavior.
I'm ready (I think).
on another note, my wife is going out to dinner with her one "work friends" who I know is one of her enablers of the A and the OM. I anticipate tons of mud slinging about me and a potential straw breaking the camels back tonight or this weekend between us. I can sense it's coming with her behavior.
Try not to anticipate what will happen. It'll only drive you crazy. Will they? Most likely, but there isn't any thing you can do about it. That straw has already broken the camel's back, sir...
Vinny -- the camel's back won't break -- or at least won't break any further (all of our old Ms are really dead by the time we get here) - if you stay detached and calm and don't take the bait. It takes two to argue or have a blow up. Stay strong. Don't react; respond. And, if she's really spewing or going and going at you, calmly tell her you won't talk to her when she's in that sort of state but will be happy to do so when she's calmer. Then go do something else, away from the situation.
Thanks all
I have a totally separate topic/question as some of you seem to be further down the path than I. I am starting to sense some anger in my 5 year old - and I suspect some if not all of it is due to my wife and I's sitch.
I get concerned that all this "DBing" is hurting the kids. I get that "it is better than divorce", but I'm also seeing people being in this spot for years only to end in divorce anyways.
Any thoughts on the impact on your kids? Anyone who went through and got out the otherside still married have a POV?
So last night came and went with no drama. She came home and we exchanged pleasantries and she went to bed. Today Her and I went out selerate ways for most of the day. Me with my son her with my daughter.pretty much paid no mind to what she was doing. We had company tonight so we had to work a bit together to get the hosting duties done, but with little interaction other than orders.
Then she unexpectedly asked me to be intimate. The last three times she's done that ive said "no thanks" with very shocked reactions from her. This time I caved. I don't know why. But I know it's not good to do that. Have I set myself back here?
This is literally one of the most passive, beta-type, approaches to this type of thing I've ever read. Your wife is stuffing herself with cake and you're serving it to her. The word "cuckold" comes to mind. Is that what you want to be?
Obviously not. And maybe I'm letting her cake eat. But I'm definitely NOT being beta. I'm controlling what I do when I want, not her. sleeping with her was a totally bad move I get that.
I disagree with Texas on this one. ML can rekindle her fire for you, especially if you don't say yes every time. I would think of some strategic approaches on this one. Keep GAL and sometimes don't be home when she gets home. STOP hinging your emotions on her reaction or non-reaction. She's cold, detached, angry? Okay, keep on keepin' on with your life. Start to dress nice for no reason, change your hair or clothing, whatever to get a new look. Find ways to laugh again, men with warm/belly laughs are HOT! Continue to "act as if" you are in control of your life and this situation because in a way, you are. ML wasn't necessarily a nail in the coffin, rather it may have ignited some attraction she previously felt towards you. You just can't depend on her to be consistent right now, okay? But [b]you[b] can be consistent with the positive changes.
Want a divorce? No? Then STOP obsessing about divorce and start focusing on how you've changed inside. Before the BD day what your wife's complaints about you? There is sometimes a grain of truth in the mud. Also, keep being present to you kids so you be the anchor to their stability. As far as whether or not the DBing could hurt the kids, how can you changing yourself to be a better man and father be detrimental?
It's been a while since I posted, but some new things have come to light that are really throwing me for a loop. But first, some background on the past 3-4 months:
I decided about 3 months ago to NOT address my W's on and off affair with the OM (which I know she is constantly pursuing), and try to truly detach to get myself in a better place. I thought, "I see the signs of her affair breaking down, I'll let the breakdown take it's course, and disrupt the affair fog."
So, I took the time to work on myself a bit. Mostly, getting healthier physically, spending lots of quality time with the kids, etc. Not pursuing/asking questions of my wife - letting her do her thing. This includes not snooping or questioning when she "stays late for work". (I assume half the time it's really that, the other half probably with him.)
I have slipped at times - mostly on weekends, but I have tried to be true to detachment rules. Through the weeks it was a constant roller coaster of HER mood. Sometimes trying to be chatty, others being totally turned off. Through it all I tried to be consistent and I admit at times, I felt I was maybe keeping her too much at a distance - as I struggled with the balance of validating and being a "Lighthouse" VS. allowing her to "cake eat" which I didn't want to do. As time passes, I feel the sting of the affair is dulling and I feel a bit more empowered, and confident in moving on if need be, but I still feel like crap and struggle with being solution oriented. When it comes to us, I see us getting further apart we just coexist and interact when needed.
So here is the current situation: My wife was out until 3 AM last night at a "work event" which I asked no questions didn't wait up, nothing. This morning she woke up giving me some "looks" and being a bit more chatty about the kids, and my day very unlike her and I KNEW something was up. I played along, answered her questions, even cracked a joke or two, etc. And then she started to talk about her work and the review she had with her boss. She told me he wants her "networking" more with clients after work. So that was there it was, setting me up for the "I need to work late more" excuse. I played along, but when she talks about that kind of stuff I start to shut down a bit.
Then she hit me. She proceeded to tell me that her boss thought they needed extra firepower, and that he was considering hiring OM. Quick background: The OM has worked with my wife for 15 years - either at the same company or doing deals together because they are in the same industry. I know him as her "friend", and since I have not confronted, she doesn't know that I know they had or are having an affair. Currently he is at a different job, but works sporadically with my wife.
So there you have it. While I was keeping my distance - hoping things would fizzle out, they obviously have not. She has crafted a plan, and I have no doubt this is all being done as the way out. So now, I know I must do something drastic. I cannot try and work on my marriage if this happens. I NEED to make a stand somehow. Do I confront and create a boundry? Last resort technique time?
Do I confront and create a boundry? Last resort technique time?
Vinny,
I don't know what other people would do, but I'd kick her @ss out and get a lawyer.
Doodler,
Trust me, it's on the short list at this point. A D will be very complex for us (as it is for others) as we not only have shared finances and kids - but a child with severe special needs. I am seeing a Lawyer next Friday to understand the legal implications of my situation better.
Vinny,
I understand, I felt the same way and I never want to go through it again. On the other hand, now that I've been through the storm and I can look back on everything that happened, I wish I'd toughened-up a lot sooner than I did.
Thx doodler! Very comforting if/when i get to that point. Wondering if there are any other perspectives on my previous posts. Or thoughts on how I could/should handle it?
I've re-read the last resort technique in the DR book. And it feels less extreme than I remember.
I have read people on this board saying things like isolating your finances, sleeping in seperate rooms, not engaging in conversation. Per my situation above, I feel I need to change the dynamic and somehow confront this potential deal breaker (of OM working at the same place as my W). One idea I had was to have a talk - with me acknowledging how she feels about me and our broken marriage, but that I could no longer accept being lied to.
I'm really struggling with how to deal with this or address it head on. Help!
I don't think the "deal breaker" is the OM working at the same place as your W. If there is a "deal breaker" for you, it should be that there is OM at all. Is this a "deal breaker" for you? It seems that is is not, which is OK if that is your stance.
You have known about this A for some time now. I don't think that the possibility that OM might get hired at your W's work is really going to change anything...for better or worse. If she is currently having an A with him, it will continue if she works with him or not...right?
So what is your "deal breaker"? Is it that she is currently having an A with OM or she is currently having an A with OM that she might work with?
You need a much better plan before you go trying to confront her with odd boundary requests. I would hold off and do nothing for now. Even if it it is just a few days or weeks. I feel like you don't really know what to do right now and when you feel like that, it is best to DO NOTHING.
You're right. I don't know what to do. The A is obviously a deal breaker for me, but if they are to work together, there will be no hope of us reconciling unless she leaves her job.
I was operating under the assumption that I can't do anything to end the affair - it must take its course - and I saw signs it was fizzling out, so i just focused on myself. Now I feel a sense of urgency that I know I cannot give into. But Matrix your correct. I'm not sure what my plan is, so I now feel in limbo a bit.
I re-read DR book, and I feel maybe I haven't goal set correctly. I have chalked any positive momentum to "cake eating", so I found monitoring results hard to measure.
Previously in my posts Sandi mentioned that the WW needs to feel a
Sense of loss, and she takes a harder stance on how to treat a WW. I think I need to employ some of these tactics but struggling how. I need to develop a plan.
Hello all.
I was curious if anyone had any experience or advice when it comes communication with mutual friends and family when it comes to detachment. While I ve been detaching it has been very hard to not keep up appearances for mutual friends (especially with kids) and with family.
It really is the last barrier to true detachment for me.
Does anyone have advice based on their experience?
Edit - start a new thread - cadet
Vinny, you need to start a new thread now that you are at 11 pages. However, if I understand your question it is how do you include mutual friends and family in the detachment from your W? You don't. It is none of their business and pulling them into your MR sitch will only end up being a barrier for your W to return the MR.
Remain cooly, lovingly detached to your W around others. Remember, detachment is not ignoring or "going dark". Many people get that wrong. It is being friendly, upbeat and pleasant, but not letting what she says or does affect you. You can do that even around others.
Hope this helped.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795707#Post2795707