Found out one week ago. Found this site. Started 180 immediately and getting my balls back and opportunities to set boundaries. Stopped sex by saying I don't want to do that right now.
I wanted to get my balls back and show some manhood since I am a nice guy husband. I actually made some progress here I think. I did some work this summer to be more helpful and present. Emotional affair was probably going on for six months befor sex three months ago. It is a guy from her hometown which requires a flight across the US. She visited in June and then a couple of weeks ago.
She knows something is up. She is now working me. Only one week has gone by and she asked me yesterday if I was going to draw up papers....which I know was a test. My question is, she thinks her secret is safe today when should I let her know I know?
Married 15 two kids 14, 12
To put in perspective we were having sex three times a week for the past year. I never turn down sex. And I would have said we have a great relationship. I think she is a WW... Now out of the blue so to speak I have changed. Since she does not know I know..... I assume I have the let her know so we can face the truth. I assume she will not volunteer the info.
I want the add I did the fixing of myself this summer and being more present etc.and learned from this site to not over do the good husband stuff. Be a man. So looked for opportunities to do that this week. I did the detachment immediately. Assume that will hard for readers to believe. And I can do more. But my behavior changed overnight and has been noticed. Although I am sure I am the enemy today but only because of this website. I admit I was unknowing before.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Consider this your homework.
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Steady9,
Welcome and sorry you are here. You sound like you are in a good place though.
Do not tell her you know about the A.
You will find a lot of good support and advice here.
Keep doing your 180s.
I am in a good place and simply following the process I have learned here. I want to do what works !!! Not what I think will work.
Luckily I found this site and read a bunch here and love Sandi advice
How do you know your W is having an affair?
Hi Steady,
I'm sorry about the situation you are in, but glad to read that you are taking control over your life and doing the right things.
I don't know if others will agree with me, but I would consider your secret drinking and spending on joint credit cards as a form of infidelity. She may know a lot more about your drinking than you think. So perhaps in her mind, you have cheated on her with alcohol and betrayed her financially. That could help explain where she is coming from. For you, an affair with another person may feel very different, but to her, you left the marriage before she did.
It's just something to consider when you try to figure all of this out.
don't know if others will agree with me, but I would consider your secret drinking and spending on joint credit cards as a form of infidelity. She may know a lot more about your drinking than you think
Is there a thread I missed?
I am so sorry, I read another thread before this and mixed them up! Can my post please be deleted?
She knows something is up. She is now working me. Only one week has gone by and she asked me yesterday if I was going to draw up papers....which I know was a test. My question is, she thinks her secret is safe today when should I let her know I know?
I'm a little confused. Had she previously dropped the bomb by saying she wanted out of the M?
Before confronting her about the A, there a few things you need to know about confrontation. Confrontation,
alone, does not end the A, and it does not push her to admit the truth. She will deny the truth when it's staring her in the face. It is often used as a doorway for the WW to go to the next level, which is separation or divorce. Confrontation alone, does not make the WW change her ways and save the M. Therefore, get your ducks in order and be prepared to S or D when you confront her. I don't mean that you
will face S/D, just be ready and don't try to back down in fear when she makes those threats. Confrontation let's her know that you are aware of the A. So, her attitude is sort of like saying........."Well, I'm done with the M anyway, so let's get a divorce". Then, if the H starts trying to back peddle, she's got him. If he's smart, he will not show or talk about his desire to save the M! At least, not at the point of confronting her about her unfaithfulness.
Whenever the betrayed acts as if he will do anything to keep the cheating W, the respect and attraction doesn't stand a chance. So, don't come off as you trying to be good enough for her to desire........b/c that alone ^^^^^^^ will be a turn-off for most WW's. The ball is your court.......not hers.
How are some of the ways you have detached?
Have you read about boundaries and how that works? They should be based on your values & standards, spiritual beliefs, and your own integrity. These should not be compromised in order to accomadate an unfaithful spouse.
Can you give us more information about the marital history? Has there ever been any inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex, from either of you in previous years?
Ok. Yesterday morning we talked for an hour with her shedding some tears etc. I turned her sex offer down. I feel she was working me.
This morning we talked again. She is leading the conversation. I am looking her in the eyes, mirroring and listening. I had a few opportunities to acknowledge in the past I could have done better -- less focus on work etc
She has very much noticed I have detached. In only 6 days. She manages all finances last night I asked her if she could get copies of our credit reports. Here and mine. She did. I talked openly about being prepared to move on independtly. And I want to share that I am and can do the detachment stuff and also I made the real decision to not be scared of D, even though I hope we can mend.
She says good words today about realizing she is being selfish, kids like school here and have made friends. Selfish was used several times. From this website I have learned not to believe what she says. It is a little tough on this one because it seems like she meant that with some examples.
She talked about the bedroom stuff and mental emotional connection. She feels that with the way we are interacting today, this can be better. She was asking for patience as she moved some mental switches. I let her know that I was giving her space and time.
She is having an affair with a blue collar poorer person than I am ,..... so I assume she likes the lifestyle we have versus being poor. But obviously she was looking for something that I was not providing.
Ok happy for any comments. I assume this will take months from reading the stories. But wondering since this was a long distance affair... or something else... will it always take months.??
Sandi- very much interested in your comments. I have read a ton of your advice.
My wife has been selfish this year I did not notice at first. She was not hugging or kissing our daughter before bedtime. Yesterday I asked her to do that and she did. All nice no tone.
She has done a few things like this that I have asked since becoming detached. I spooked her I feel and understand she is working me too.
heard her FaceTime call with him.
No love you etc. I think the guy is just using her.... uhg
Why do W want to have sex? Is it because they think the lost you and this is a way to help them feel better? Or simply power.
In my case since W does not know I know she does not know what is going on since I stopped having sex with her.
I have protraying that I am just giving her space since she asked for patience. Obviously we are talking around the elephant ....
No infidelity yelling or any aggressive things. I would have said we have a mature relationship. Calm and a good team.
Three months ago after coming from a trip to see her family,and now I believe the OM, she weak she did not know about the future, the exact phrase that Sandi has used. For the next two months I was more present.
She went to visit family again but without our two kids this time. For ten days. After she returned and one week later I was able to learn that she was seeing a guy while there.
She does not know I know
I pulled back and started 180. I already work out so just do that a little more and started wearing nice cologne etc.
I confronted her when she was disrespectful, the small stuff I have learned she does this week. Stopped her from buying something large for the house , which I have never done before. This actually triggered her to send me a text about wondering if I was leaving her because of my facial expression and tone. I did. I respond to the text and when I came home an hour later I simply asked what that was about.
We had conversations where I listen and mirror but continue to say you can make your own choices.
She said she wants to stay.
Just don't believe her I guess since she wants her cake and eat it too probably. We have never had this much drama in our lives. She never cries and I mean never. So this is new for me to see and for her to do. I wonder if she is scared or only manipulating me.
Did you ever actually read DB or DR? It sounds like you're just taking shortcuts based off the situation of others. Doesn't work that way.
No inappropriate behavior. No yelling or anything. Certainly no infidelity until now.
Been married for 15 years. No infidelity to my knowledge. W parents still married. We have two kids 12 and 14. We have had a non drama relationship for the 15 years.
This past year I was too precupied with the job and not present at home - routinely my mind was somewhere else. I did not understand at the time but know now.
In June my wife spent 3 weeks at her parents with our two kids - since we live far away she has done this a couple of times over the past 4 years. While she was there she did not communicate much and I got the feeling she was maybe doing something- the tone in her texts I guess. When she retuned-- she said she was resentful to me that I did o it let her stay longer .... and then later said she was not sure if she pictures a future with me . This was all new and caught me off guard. She said she was lonely. Also my D said she complained to her family that I was not emotional....a lot...
Ok so for the next couple of months I was more present and helped out more. I also said my W could go back again soon. So she did 3 months later.
I was unable to get her on the phone several times... so put two and two together.
We live across the country from the W parents.
I was able to learn last week that she is skype -ing with this guy. It is a guy from her home town. She evidently has been chatting with him for a year and started have JV sex on the June trip and the recent trip was mostly to see him I think. Also she spent much time with her family.
She does not know that I know. Her phone records email and credit cards are clean. Just the Skype it appears.
Ok. So I just learned this one week ago. The first week she came back, the previous week we had sex 3 times. I know now that does not mean anything.
This week I changed my behavior toward the 180..... immediately.
On Saturday I turned down sex and asked her to cancel an order to the house. I have never done this. She sent me a text a few minutes later saying that I must be thinking about a divorce or something......
This was just to find out if I knew about the affair I think.
I did not respond to the text and came home an hour later. We talked about the past few days and I said that I am letting her go and she can make her own choices. --- Note. This is completely out of the blue for us. We have never talked like this. And now we are.
The next day she was unable to cancel the order so it is coming. And she cried and apologized. We talked about the relationship. She does want it to end. She asked for patience. She said she has been selfish. She wants to live here ......
Ok meanwhile recognize that the only reason I understand that this is going on is because I know about the affair. If I did not know. I would have thought my W had gone crazy in3 days.
ok so I know this is not so far down the road as what I have read here. No one has asked for a divorce. But the I love yous are missing she is not wearing her wearing band etc. so trying to head it off early if I can. For the past few months I was just doing what dumb H do. Being more helpful. This past week trying to do the 180 and it got her attention right away.
I assume she is a liar now and everything is smoke and mirrors.
I assume I have time since there are no plans for her to revisit her hometown. Today she said she wants to stay here and get her parents to visit more......
I feel the only way I will know is by monitoring skype calls .....
Reading this website I have fear and knowledge that this could get much worse.... and I am hopeful that she will not see this guy again. Hoping I will never find out.... but maybe I am foolish on this one.
Believing nothing they say is hard. When my W used the word selfish several times I felt she was showing remorse. -- again she is saying these things and I do not know about the A
Comments welcome.
Ok. Yesterday morning we talked for an hour with her shedding some tears etc. I turned her sex offer down. I feel she was working me.
She was working you, indeed! Good job for seeing it for what it was.
And I want to share that I am and can do the detachment stuff and also I made the real decision to not be scared of D, even though I hope we can mend.
Okay, but you did not share this with her, did you?
She says good words today about realizing she is being selfish, kids like school here and have made friends. Selfish was used several times. From this website I have learned not to believe what she says. It is a little tough on this one because it seems like she meant that with some examples.
She is seeing how she could lose, and it's b/c you are handling the situation like a man, and not pleading and/or accomadating her waywardness. Just stand tall, and not say too much about what you will or won't do at the moment. See how the next couple of days go. Stay detached. The minute you cave to her, thinking things are patched up........she will be right back into her cr@p behavior.
I let her know that I was giving her space and time.
This is okay..
ish, but it reminds me of something to warn you. A lot of guys will verbally pass along to his WW the things the board tells
him to
do. For example, he should not tell her he is working on improving himself to be a better H..............how he's setting goals and going to change for the better,...............how he's focusing on himself......GAL.......that he's detaching..............or that he plans to validate her more..........or whatever he read from DR. Some things are not to be said to the WW, just applied by the H. (However, you may get help for the board about how to state certain other things, but that's different than what I'm referring to here). Confused yet?
I assume this will take months from reading the stories. But wondering since this was a long distance affair... or something else... will it always take months.??
It doesn't
have to take months. It depends on how quickly she pulls out of her waywardness. Long distance has nothing to do with her fantasy. She was getting something out of the A that made her feel like alive, desirable, beautiful, etc. It is that "high" that is addictive. It's not the man, himself. That is why some women go from one affair into another, b/c it's the thrill of the secrecy, the "sinfulness" that heightens the senses.
Until she actually tells you that she is willing to do whatever it takes to save the M, progress will be slow. B/c here is what she'll try. First, she will want to keep all the benefits she gets by being in this M. Benefits like a nice home, car, clothes, insurance, having a H to do things that most H's do, and she doesn't have to hold down a job, etc........(especially, since OM is poor). So, she gets a lot of benefits being M to you, right? Okay, so then she will pretend to play house and be nice, may even have sex.......but she continues to keep her OM on the sideline. It's very easy to continue secretly contacting another person, with all the phone/computer apps provided. And as long as she can contact the OM, her A addiction is fed. Where does that leave you? In a MR with three people.
If allowed, a WW will even agree to give the MR another chance, but she wants to pick up where the R was left off, so to speak. B/c she really has no intentions of putting forth the emotional work that would be required to repair the MR. She doesn't want to talk about her unfaithfulness. She just wants to make everything the H's fault (even her A).
Long distance affairs can last a long time, if the H is none the wiser. The W will throw her H a few crumbs along the way.......just to keep him off her back, and in the M. Ending the contact with the OM is critical to having a faithful W, and a successful MR.
Yes, you can give her some space and time, but nothing much between will be "true" until she makes the decision to end her A. And she needs to understand the importance of not engaging in any future private friendships that exclude her H.
So, first things first. While you are giving her space and time.........be thinking about yourself and what you want from your W. How do you want to be treated? Is there anything you will not tolerate? Just think about it, and maybe write it down. Do not discuss any of this with your W.
Go back to the link about boundaries and think about where you need to have a boundary. Boundaries are to protect yourself. They are not ultimatums. Ultimatums are about the other person and their actions. Boundaries are about you and what you will do to protect your feelings.
I recommend you think about what you will need from her, in order for you to feel emotionally safe in the MR again. I don't believe the WW should be the one who calls the shots about what it will take to go forward in the MR. The betrayed spouse should have conditions to reconciling. For example, she must end her affair, and agree to complete transparency. After she has gone through withdrawals of the A (which could be weeks or many months.....depending on her limerance, she agrees to MC that deals with couples reconciling after an affair. Although, if she has no remorse/humility over her actions, I doubt MC will help. But that's probably a ways off.
It is important that you not offer to tell her what will be required.......if she doesn't ask. What I mean is that many H's get into a hurry and tell the WW when she isn't even interested in
considering reconciliation. Although I am giving you a lot of information today, pace yourself. That's important. I am just trying to give you things you need to avoid, expect, and be prepared.
Have you read DB or DR books yet?
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
It appears my W is doing some thinking. This morning she told me stories about how her two sisters were doing with their men. And she would compare our 16 year relationship with their short ones and how good ours was.... for 30 minutes she just talked about their challenges. And the. Would reference ours as something more stable or solid or had the investment.
At lunch time she told me she needs to be less selfish and focus more on the kids and find a job or a means to occupy her time more. She wants to be more intimate with me and more helpful and more friendly ....
She acknowledges that she has not been friendly over the past few months and she has not been happy with herself.
Hmmmmm
I feel as though she is doing real thinking and sharing. I also think this is occurring more out of a fear getting caught. I think the text she sent me the other day was a test to see if I knew about A somehow.... I think she feels I would leave her if I found out. Of course we have not discussed it.
She was surprised how easily I was ready to move on with my life versus fighting for the relationship. (Follow up on the Saturday morning conversation). I simply said I knew something was wrong so I knew she might make her own choices and I was simply getting prepared to move forward to take care of myself.
Note- we are having this conversation over lunch with some light heartedness- calm and not tense. Although perhaps she is tense I her head.
I do not think she will tell me about A. I think she may end it now and hope I never find out.
Ok that is the update for today.
If she ended the A today as you think she might, would you able to forgive and not throw it into her face later on? Would you be able to move on and not let her know you knew?
I believe I could today. What I could use advice on-- is it ok to do it that way?
Should you put it on the table or let it go if you can prove to yourself the A is over?
I read some other comments on other posts. Appears that the odds are against bringing the A into the open..... if I confirm it is over..... I guess I can let it go. I have asked you W what she is willing to do to start or MR over? She is doing some thinking and sharing but her thinking is not done I feel. Given the lack of depth in the answer. She asked me what I needed to hear.... I said I am interested in her thoughts at this time.
Somehow we are having these last couple of conversations with no one getting emotional or upset and even a little light hearted. And remember she does not know I know so she just thinks I have pulled back because of a lack of closeness or something-- and we pretend there is no A ....
Mostly I want to move forward with my W as long as we can hear and see the right actions and behaviors.
Is there any reason why you don't answer the question of whether or not you've read the DB or DR books?
Apologize- I have not read the books. Difficult for me to buy items because all credit cards go to both of us..... and wanted to be very discreet... are they in local book store?
They should be. You can also find them at a library. The thing is that when you read them, alot of the things you are asking will be clear. Then you can apply those principles to your specific situation because we don't know you or your W. It'll also be easier for us to give you more personalized help based on those principles and you'll understand what we're talking about. If you want to save your M, you have to put in the work.
Can I get some feedback --- if W calls A off and never admits it -- is it best to pretend you never knew ? ( assuming you see the actions and behaviors you need to see-- you just let the secret stay with your W )
Can I get some feedback --- if W calls A off and never admits it -- is it best to pretend you never knew ? ( assuming you see the actions and behaviors you need to see-- you just let the secret stay with your W )
I think that would be a personal decision. Some people choose to bury the secret and go on with their M as if the A never occurred. Others feel they would be living a lie if the truth did not come forth. Like Bond said, reading the DB or DR book will help you understand what is right for your situation. Also, understand that choosing to not confront about the affair at this time, does not mean to never discuss it. Again, these are personal decisions. Whatever you've read on other threads, are personal experiences or view points from observations, etc. My advice is to get better acquainted with DBing before you jump into something you won't know how to handle.
You know yourself. Could you go the rest of your life without saying anything about the A? The next time you and W get into an argument......will you be tempted to use your intel for leverage? Will it always be at the back of your mind, eating at you? Would you feel your MR is a lie, b/c of this secret?
Perhaps you are an avoider, and had rather bury it, instead of bringing it up. Maybe you will see your W putting effort into the MR, and you think if you bring up the subject of her A, it will make things much worse. These are the things only you can decide for yourself.
My point is that you need to read, read, and read more.........and do NOT jump into telling your W anything until you know what the heck you're doing. This appears to be a difficult task for some men.
Do nothing to get a reaction from her! Work on you becoming a confident man. You can be decisive without being controlling.
I have a question. Did your W say she wanted out of the M? She said she wanted to live there, but what about the MR? It was unclear to me.
Would you say the MR has lacked a certain passion?
W said she wants to live here and stay in the M and move forward with me.
She knows she has not been herself lately although this she has done both - hold herself accountable and blame me.... depending on what talk we have had over the past days.
We he MR did lack passion. I am not sure I could describe it though. Since I am a dumb man. Sex is frequent. But I know that is not it. She said that I have been more present in that past months. She would like to have more quite dinners with me and more dinners with the 4 of us-2 kids--- we eat around the kitchen island a lot at different times. So the other night she put a candle ina heart shaped crystal dish out as the two of us ate dinner toward this idea.
Passion---- I need to think about this more. When we first met, I could not keep my W off of me and I did not do anything. and of course it grew into a routine..... uhg. I will think some more
Besides what Sandi wrote I think you are getting way ahead of yourself.
Is this an offer on the table
for her to want to be back in the marriage?
Or are you just spinning all the possibilities?
One of the first things I say is keep your expectations at zero?
This is probably not going to play out the way you are thinking right now.
Knowledge is indeed POWER and you need to arm yourself with that.
Right now we want to teach you how to fish,
we don't want to give you the fish as that will be exhausting.
Once you learn how to fish you wont go hungry.
I asked my W -- if we could start over like we just met today. Forget about whatever happened yesterday and move forward. What you should want in a MR. (with me). This is what she wrote-----
If i just met you "today", and we were to discuss getting married, these are the types of things that would be important to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(you took all the below mentioned words from me already)
Accoutability- There is no blame game. Each of us plays their part in the ways of the world and owns the repsonsibility. We accept our own failings.
Honesty/Trust/transparancy- Openess... say what is on your mind... in a respectful way. When I do this, I want to trust you will be open and accepting to the topic of the conversation. Of course you dont have to agree... but atleast listen and be open. I once heard someone say "Say what you mean, and mean what you say".
Respect- I wont degrade, belittle or make you feel inferior. I might discuss my opinion or point of view, but i would do it in a constructive manner with only the intent to be helpful. I would be sensitive to your feelings.
It would be important that we understand each others life aspirations and goals, whether personal or career wise. I have a great job currently, and I might need to know if you plan on moving to Siberia to live like a Neanderthal. I realize these goals and said aspirations are dynamic and can change and evolve over time.... so continuing communication is necessary.
It would be imortant that any adverse feelings are discussed in a timely fashion so as those feelings do not become a burden and or hindrance and or contribute to the dimise of our future relationship. I know that harboring feelings can lead to break down in communication between people in general and eventually the relationship.
It would be important that each of us participate in each others interests.. for instance if you happen to like football, I can spend the time with you in such an event becasue it is something you find "joy" in doing, and I would want to do things with you... just to be with you, doing something you enjoy.... maybe in the future i may like to take care of a lawn... or decorate a christmas tree... with you :-)
Since at this point of meeting you....we know nothing about each others family: However, it would be imprtant to me that (and this probably falls under participating in each others interests) that we each participate in the extended families. I'm close to some of my family members, so it would be great if you and i would be able to visit with them and spend some quality time.
If we ever have kids, a marriage with kids.... we both participate in the their daily lives, they are afforded time with us in individual and family as a whole. Each parent is resposible for making the child feel important and loved. They would be our kids.. not mine only and not yours only.
Its a little far in the future, but I would get a lot of gratification if our future kids could say, "I want to have a life/relationship lke mom and dad" I would most definitly perfer to be the example they aspire to follow than to not.
Balance- Everything requires balance to keep order... relationships with people are no different. I understand this can happen, but its important to me that you and i would be aware and care enough at those times (should they happen), to reaccess and find our balance again.
I love you -my name- she put my name here
OK so do her actions match these words?
And is there anything in what she wrote that STINGS you?
If there is then that is something for you to work on and improve.
She is showing these actions.
I need to think about what stings still... it is not clear to me how I feel about never mentioning A - I will need to think more about more. I do know that I would rather be with her if she can do these actions versus not be with her. I do love my W....
Honesty/Trust/transparancy- Openess... say what is on your mind... in a respectful way. When I do this, I want to trust you will be open and accepting to the topic of the conversation. Of course you dont have to agree... but atleast listen and be open. I once heard someone say "Say what you mean, and mean what you say".
So you think her actions match these above words?
My guess is she is setting you up to trust her even though she is lying about her affair and deceiving you.
What do you think?
This could be more than she wants to do this -now. And forget about yesterday. But this is why I feel hesitant and listening
Meant to say-- this is she wants to do now. Versus revealing yesterday
Honesty/Trust/transparancy- Openess... say what is on your mind... in a respectful way. When I do this, I want to trust you will be open and accepting to the topic of the conversation. Of course you dont have to agree... but atleast listen and be open. I once heard someone say "Say what you mean, and mean what you say".
So you think her actions match these above words?
It's interesting to me that her first words are about accountability, honesty and transparency.
And yet, she has not told you about the affair.
So I would say that no, her actions dont really match her words.
It comes down to whether or not you agree with her list. Is this something she's willing to talk to you about? If so, then you have to tell her that the conversation will be hard, but in order for it to work then you have to go point by point from both of your perspectives.
Of course this will not work at all if she didnt' say that she wants to stay married to you.
When do you plan to pick up the books? It will help us to give you proper strategies and will help to focus your questions rather than asking general ones that are covered in them.
I asked her to do this under the context of starting now - As a way to not confront about A and decide how we would treat each other moving forward. Or more what she was willing to commit to do to stop us from splitting up.
Ok so W and I have talked around the A without talking about. I said I just need to share that if any communication occurs with anyone that will be a problem. I let her know I did not trust her. She let me know that there will be. I further contact she wants to move forward with me. She has never wanted to not be married to me.....
She would like to start today with the new rules and would like to close the last few months. She will show me anything I need to see to build trust. She would like to accept my offer of just starting over today. I believe her.
Now, we both know about A and she has to know that I must know something given the past couple of weeks. And let her know again that I am prepared to move on without her and not sure when I will be ready to trust her again. She is willing to do whatever it takes. Again I believe her.
My question to you and especially Sandi-- do I let this go-- it asks her to tell me about A or tell her that I know? (By stating specifics).
I said is she prepared to tell me names of her friends she saw during her visit to home town. Yesterday she said two guy names but not THE guy. Today I asked her about when she would start being open honest and transparent as her letter to me stated since she did not tell me all the people she saw. She wanted to accept my offer of starting today and how we would behave today moving forward.
Anyway. I believe she did recognize uh oh what am I doing ..... now she would like to bury it. I think she can live the rest of her life with this secret so to speak even though she must know by now I know something.
I do not know what I want to do but could use some comments or advice on making her say it or me say it or not.
Should say. She let me know that there will be no further contact with anyone
I don't know that anyone is going to be able to tell you what you should do. You have to figure out what you want. And that might change. You might get down the road a ways and realize you can't full reconcile, because you don't have closure, trust, or whatever it ends up being that holds you back.
Personally, there is no way I could not confront if what I wanted was to reconcile. Yes, in this moment, things would be "easier" as it got swept under the rug, but you'd always know it was under there. In a lot of ways, she'd have "gotten away with it" -- is there anyway you could trust that she wouldn't do it again?
Take what I say with a grain of salt though. I'm not 100% sure I'd ever want or be able to reconcile after a PA; so, while I say I'd confront, and I would, I think it'd likely be in the context of telling her to get the F out of the house, and that she'll be hearing from my L.
Yes, in this moment, things would be "easier" as it got swept under the rug, but you'd always know it was under there.
NO SWEEPING under the rug.
TRUST but VERIFY.
You need complete transparency.
I agree with MR. Bond that you should first read DR,
right now I would do NOTHING until I am armed with some knowledge.
Ok picked up DR at bookstore today and will read today/tonight
She is giving me access to electronics etc so I can verify moving forward. And I will keep my surveillance as well to verify.
Maybe I'm missing something. You keep saying that you know that she knows you know about the A. Did the two of you actually address that issue and not dance around it? Did you discuss with her what she didnt' like about you in specifics that might have caused her to look elsewhere as well as things that you had issue with her in the M?
Sounds like she's just going through the motions because of her confusion. No one just snaps out of it that quickly.
We dance around it.. and hence the struggle. If she is willing to do what it takes to move forward and I can verify and she apologizes for her behaviors -- which have been more around respect friendliness etc. and more attentive to kids etc
Are there times where a couple lives the rest of their lives without going through the detail of the A ?? So I will read the book to give me some guidance. I never thought this would be my life .... I am sure others feel the same.
STOP telling her you don't trust her, if you aren't going to tell her why!
If she has agreed to transparency, and to start the MR with a beginner's mind.....then try it......if that's what you want. What she's laid out seems to read like a woman who wants to be treated with respect, be heard/validated, and romanced. She wants her H to give her attention, other than just the bedroom. (BTW, sex is not the only means of showing passion).
If I gave her the benefit of doubt, I would say she has seen the erring of her ways and has decided to give the M another chance. I can also see how she would want to avoid the entire nasty business of telling her H about her A. That just makes plain sense to a WW. I'm not saying it is the right thing to do......I'm just saying a WW had rather bypass explaining an A, if she can.
We can't tell you how to feel. Only you know what you want. If you think you can close that chapter and start over, then that's your decision. If you feel you need closure and have to hear what she has to say, or see how she reacts to you confronting her about the A.....then, that's your decision. You may decide to put this on a trial basis and see what happens.....maybe wait and make a decision later about confronting. I don't know your values, etc. I don't know your preferences in how you deal with things. I think reading DR will encourage you and maybe you'll know more about what you want to do after you read the book.
Either way, if she stays in the MR, then you need to monitor her messages. However, she is not to know when you do it. You don't even have to monitor it every day, but ever so often just check the activity.
Let me remind you that she does not need to discover your activity on this forum, if you ever post from your phone or home computer.
Let me add this point, too. The "37 rules" are not for a couple who are reconciling their MR, should there be any confusion.
I agree with sandi, You need to have that tough talk about the A. Be firm but not judgemental. Tell her you need to clear the air so that you can be totally honest with each other.
Sandi. Thank you so much for this post. I appreciate your benefit of the doubt comment and I mean more that way today versus a few days ago. She has done a lot of thinking and revealing and I am listening. I started the book- took today and tomorrow off to work on myself and the MR. I will heed your advice and stop with telling her I do not trust. I do think she is or was WW and I am working on learning and executing "passion". I feel stupid today on this and working to get up to speed - passion.
Sandi- do you think a WW can convince herself that nothing really happened and move on?
Meant. Lean more that way...
My W added these paragraphs to her letter to me. I have asked her to add thoughts to this document as things come up or due to some discussions we are having. Also she is interested in reading a book and thought she should read the book I picked up today. She does not know the title. I just let her know I was reading and education myself on how to have better conversations and learning from tough relationship issues. Is it ok for her to read the DR book? Or is that off limits???
-----W writing to me-----
It will also be important the neither of us does something in such a manner that could make us stop loving one another. This may be partially subjective, however a very broad example that may encompass the most is... doing or saying anything that you would not normally do if the other of us were there. This can fall under, Trust/honesty/respect section.
Your trust in me is gone, I have not been living 100% by all the above "whats important to me" items. All I can tell you, is that I promise everyday moving forward, that I will. I am confident our relationship can regain its momentum and integrity.
Still need to bring up the A to her. I don't know how many situations we've encountered and some going on right now where there was an A in the past and it was swept under the rug only to have the repercussions appear years later.
Still need to bring up the A to her. I don't know how many situations we've encountered and some going on right now where there was an A in the past and it was swept under the rug only to have the repercussions appear years later.
Hi Bond.... can you expound on this a little bit?
Ok talked about A today. It went well I would say and calm. She is disappointed in herself. She said it was stupid it was a guy she had not seen since 8th grade re connect on FB and guy had recently gone through divorce and my W was giving some advice I guess. Supposedly he meant nothing and it was not planned. Her going to home town to see him. She said she feels stupid. She said he does not even have manners..... she seems sincere.
She wants to do whatever it takes to save MR. she feels guilty and thanked me for giving it another chance yesterday and today after the more detail discussion.
"Hi Bond.... can you expound on this a little bit?"
When the A is swept under the rug and no follow up is done in terms of counseling or true understanding of why it happened in the first place, the consequences of the A have a tendency to keep coming up. There have been people who said that their WAS had an affair years ago, but they "talked" about it and it seemed good, only to have that WAS leave again because they still felt "empty". We've also had cases the other way around where an A was swept under the rug and the LBS ends up having an A years later because they never did "forgive" the WAS for having the first A.
In these cases, total open communication with each other and in conjunction with a great C that can give you a map on how to get on the path to healing for both the WAS and LBS is very important.
I feel like W is taking accountability during our conversations today. I do understand my part as well. I had started to be more present with her and the kids a few months ago. She still needed to work through this I guess. During the conversation she said she needed me to shake her out of it. She seems truly embarrassed-- she used that word. We have been able stay light hearted with some humor. I need to do more --she is not asking for it right now-- but from my reading and this website- I know.
I feel it is like Sandi said about the benefit of the doubt-- and this A was not that strong. Knowing we need to work together to make sure needs are met.
You may have misunderstood what I was saying in that paragraph. I tend to make statements from the VP of the WW, but you probably did not realize it. Let me try again, below.
If I gave her the benefit of doubt, [then] I would say she has seen the erring of her ways and has decided to give the M another chance. [However, from the VP of a WW], I can also see how she would want to avoid the entire nasty business of telling her H about her A. That just makes plain sense to a WW....(sarcasm implied). I'm not saying it is the right thing to do......I'm just saying a WW had rather bypass explaining an A, if she can.
From what I have observed, if the WW does not know her H has discover her A, she will not volunteerly tell him about it. If he
does know and confronts her, telling her he knows........she may tell him she'll stay with him if they can just go forward and not talk about the A/OM. She usually does not want to ask for his forgiveness, or won't show remorse, and won't do the work necessary to have a successful MR.
Simply confronting her (just to let her know that you know), is not an automatic fix to the problems in the MR. That is the point I wanted to make to you. H's have this idea that if he confronts, she'll want to save the M, but that rarely, ever happens.
Sweeping the truth under the rug doesn't fix it, either. What your WW had
rather do, and what is "right".......may not be one in the same.
This is helpful
She shared more with me today that she wanted to. And I believe her. I let her know that I needed some of this information. It is interesting to think about if she is just trying to not tallk about it now because of embarrassment.... but I have been able to keep the conversation going -- I took the day off work. Kids in school. And we also ran some errands together it was an easy confrontation because over the past few days she could tell I knew more. Just today I said the OM name and she figured I knew given the last few days. I feel it went calmly given the circumstances
I am reading the DR -- I feel I need some details because I feel the story in my head is worse than reality. But I am trying to be mature too. I want to move forward.. and in the right way.
She does no have a reason today for what happened. Does she need to get that out?? I did ask her to think about what she needs .... today has seemed to go well... but know more to come.
Any ideas on the balance of me asking for more details and simply respecting- validating - passion moving forward.
For example-- I asked her to let me know if the OM reached out to her, she said she would. I then said I would like to know what he says and what she says.... she did not know why I would want that detail ... it sounded like she would do it for me.
Is this me asking for too much?
She is this way-- she does not want the details. If something happens with me she would not want details ....
Id advise watching the Esther Perel TED talk on infidelity. It may be interesting to you.
I think you both might really benefit from a good MC with experience working with couples where there's been infidelity.
On your questions, you should think about what you need transparency-wise and ask for it, end of story. If she balks at any of it, that's a red flag, but one you need to know exists.
Sorry for hijacking steady but we are in a similar spot. Thanks for that response Bond. For both steady and myself, it has been mentioned a few times to find a good MC.... how do you go about that?
You can start with the DB sessions and see what they say. And you can always make calls on your own, but be sure that the MC you get is FOR saving marriages. There are some who may not be so inclined. What I did was ask some of my friends who have gone through this (sad that so many have) and see whom they recommended.
W said the A came out of talking with the guy about his recent divorce and she felt some sort of "obligation ".
Again it is all stupid now
On the good side she talked about not having and friends and so while she is in her home town-- there is just plenty of things to do even if not exciting.
I also think she was not herself for the past months. But believe she is passed this now....
"I also think she was not herself for the past months. But believe she is passed this now...."
I can practically guarantee that she's not. Half of what she's told you may be what you want to hear. I really can't stress enough how you need to get this worked out with a C. If you don't believe me, there is a recent poster now who is going through the scenario I mentioned earlier about an A that was swept under the rug. You may think you know better than others on here but don't kid yourself.
Hi Bond...(sorry for clogging your thread steady!)... can you give the name of that thread mentioned above?
She continues to shake more info-on her own and I just listen.
Reconmected on FB about a year ago and he was with her cousin who died 20 some years ago. W is 41. So it started as chatting about people and events in her home town. Over the pst 20 some years. My W went to college and then left state so is interested in hearing this type of news. The guy started sharing his struggles with a ref t divorce. I met my W after a divorce. I was married for 4 years before and then met my W at work and we got together shortly after.
Ok so the guy shares some depressing thoughts and even says he has thought about killing himself...
So my W went to home town with our kids for three weeks. There as. O plan but she spent some time with this guy then. My W thought that I was not a detective or would pay attention to anything like this. She did not think I would find out. And she thought what I did not know would not hurt me....
She said that this did not mean anything and stupid now. The guy is poor, not smart, missing some teeth..... she tells me that even though he is 12 years younger than me, he does not have anything on me.... or something like that. I do not need or want to hear this part. I am just listening.
She said he is loud and has an opinion about everything....
And she thanked me again for giving her another chance.
I have asked her to think about what she needs - and why this happened. What was she missing. More to come
Thanks bond... you certainly do help many out. I look for your posts and read as many as I can.
Steady... I think you and I both need to get into MC to work these issues. The worst outcome for me (as I have said from day one) is ending up in this situation again 5 yrs down the road. I'd rather get divorced.
I think it's good she being open but now it's time to get to the root of issue of why this happened.
I agree need to get to root
She also said this morning that during the few events ... she didn't care what was at risk. Assume this is related to her also assuming I would not find out.
I also watched the Ted talk referenced earlier. --helpful.
Listening to Esther Perel-- I think my W lost herself... she lost connection of home town, friends, family, and plenty of people to get together with. Versus our current life where mostly I go to work , we have two kids and only really one set of friends. .....
Also she has more money now with me versus her family, friends and the other guy.
We have been together for 16 years....
Today we talked about the five languages of love.... also she talked a little more how she ended up here and how stupid it all is....
I still feel like she is doing real thinking and she is sincere.
We got up early together. She was evidently awake for the previous two hours... just thinking and thinking about me thinking. So we had coffee and just hung out some more.
We are taking a day off from talking on our MR topic .... but out of the blue my W asked me if had read anything about the H going out to have an affair too in this situation , even though she says she would not have a leg to stand on... I said I have not read anything on that topic just some ideas to help me understand our situation better.
I assume that her lack of self identity that may have led to A is also causing her to bring this topic up.
Talked this morning--- and plan to take rest of day off and spend time working around house and talking kids for hike.
This morning we talked about both the secrecy of the new friendship and the sex. My W is better today- I can tell. Like the way she wa 5 years ago or something. So this event has been an awaking I think.
I know this is bigger than the sex act. So we talked about needing to think about what was missing and what she needed etc. I did use the phrase -- how did it happen where one day it is ok for you to let another penis in you.... something like that. This is not the way we normally talk ... later as she explained she used my new phrase and then made a sound and put her head in her hands. I needed her to say it out loud for her (in my opinion). She could have gone the rest of her life with this secret. She said so and I believe her. But I feel for us to have a more mature relationship moving forward -- we need to turn this event into an opportunity and take the most from the learning -as individuals and a couple.
In her mind this is over. The sex was only a short amount of time... that what she said. They spent more time walking around or talking on this recent trip. She said the sex meant nothing and just let it happen... she knew it was not gong to continue and it would have ended on its own but I certainly accelerated by bringing into open. She told guy to not contact her anymore.
She turned off her FB account.
I believe she has turned the corner. Now I need her to take more time to discover herself...what she needs.... who she is.... so this will not happen again ... not sure she gets this. She does know she needs to be more accountable for her life and where she is.... but not sure she did all the investment needed...
I understand we are going fast through these events.
We started or I started an idea
I told my W that we are broken up. We can date ... and maybe get married again. Let's pretend we got divorced a year ago and we started dating because we see each other while we exchange the kids.... this gives an opportunity to talk about the future or today without the A topic dominating.
This has worked out interestingly for the last couple of days. She has played along. The idea is that I have moved on emotionally but still open. And if she want a to date or ask me to marry her , there are certain boundaries or commitments needed. I have used her letter to me earlier in this blog as a backdrop.
I have to admit I have found this very helpful to my mind and heart -- hearing her share about how and what she will do for the future versus only about the past.
Ok
Hate to say it but all that validation you just did about her understanding, etc. We've heard it all before. Have her find a good counselor for the both of you to do it the RIGHT way. You're still sweeping and so is she.
That is why I post -- to get the candid feedback. I have mentioned the C once and will revisit. Please keep the candid thoughts coming.
Does anyone else struggle with the getting their heads around the infidelity ??
Even if the W comes back which is what we want, we have to not throw it back and let it go. I have the above exercise going in my mind to help (what if we broke up and a year goes by and we started dating again....) Because I want to be with her....
The W may be able to get over it easier or sooner.....
But the H still has heavy lifting to do.... (I feel immature to say this, but it seems unfair...)
But I think this is just the way it is.
Any ideas or how did someone else do it?
I'll comfortably say that everyone here struggles with how unfair infidelity is. People are just at different stages of it. Many of us aren't even at the stage where the ws has even come back yet. Fortunately lots of books cover forgiveness and getting past it.
Your ww's actions look positive and you are in a position that many of us would envy(relatively speaking). Work with counselors and keep reading and posting!
So last night watching tv on the sofa- my W asks why the cologne? (So I never wear cologne except for past 3-4 weeks. Guidance from 180-37 rules etc.. I have worn cologne and shaved and etc every day to look nice. )
She is actually wondering if I started to be available to others over the past weeks.... she inquired with a few more questions but all with a fun tone but a sense of genuine curiosity if I am seeing someone. Hmmmmm
So last night watching tv on the sofa- my W asks why the cologne? (So I never wear cologne except for past 3-4 weeks. Guidance from 180-37 rules etc.. I have worn cologne and shaved and etc every day to look nice. )
She is actually wondering if I started to be available to others over the past weeks.... she inquired with a few more questions but all with a fun tone but a sense of genuine curiosity if I am seeing someone. Hmmmmm
Bingo! Glad to see it's working
Honestly, you need to approach the subject of a C as soon as possible. The longer this goes on without being addressed, you're just going to keep making excuses as to why you don't need it. Again, sweeping things under the rug is NEVER good.
Today my W is reading about infidelity. She let me know that she learned that I will need some questions answered even if she felt I did not need to know. I asked her something that she did not answer yesterday-- and today she quickly gave me straight answer. She told me she needs to over deliver on promises made. Sh told me that it will take longer for me to heal versus her.
She is reading about causes for affairs and then started talking about how we drifted apart even though we were having sex regularly, the other touching or smiles or friendliness drifted away. And she knows she should have said something.... stronger than she did. (And I know I should have been paying more attention- being more engaged and committed )
She says she is not doing this work out of guilt or security. She is doing it because she is still in love with me and she wants to stay married.
We will both do some more reading and then address the C.
Also, do not forget, if she's had sex with that dude, she SHOULD get tested for STDs. STDs are no laughing matter...
You guys may perhaps want to consider a Retrouvaille workshop at some point??
It is very early days here, but I'm glad to read about the work your W is doing and the convos you are having. Mr Bond is right in that rug sweeping isn't the way to go..
Good luck with things
While things do look positive, i would advise against jumping back in with both your feet.
She needs to put the work in, and you still need to work on your boundaries, expectations, GAL etc.
I asked a couple more direct questions and she answered them ... these we sex related. (But her answers helped me-- they used comdoms. It was two times and there was no oral involved. I know some people may not need details. But I needed or wanted a couple of details.... )
She said that she has never stopped loving me.... she said that over this year there were times when she wanted to give me a hug after I got ready for work. ... but she was not going to do that since everything was not alright... she did not say she loved because same reason.
She is normally tough. She says and I would say. This year she did. It know what to do. She felt Ike there were things I was not doing and we just did not get it worked out. ( me being present/engaged with her and or kids)
I asked why didn't she just raise her hand and say something-- I would have rather talked before you had sex with someone... we are certainly talking now.
She discribes the affair as a car wreck and I discribe it as nuclear war.....
My W is more immature than I thought. Not pointing or blaming... just recognizing that I put too much on her and was not paying attention.
Even though she is 42.... she was acting like when we first met. "I am not going to walk over and give you a hug....". She was frustrated
It is hard to get my head around. She did not think I would ever find out .... but I think it took this event and my conversation to say I was letting her go... for her to picture life without me. She says she never pictured life without me... not sure I believe her over this year.
She is continuing to read about infidelity so more to come.
Why is she reading about infidelity? Both of you lived it.
Only SHE knows why she felt the way she did, a book won't help.
Stoked you are getting the answers you need to move forward. What I wouldn't give to be in your position right now
I understand that she may feel embarrassed about talking to a C about it, but you're really not going to get much insight from a book. Just throwing it out there, but we have had WAS's who have come here on the boards with the approval of their LBS to talk to us to get some understanding. Sounds like she wants to understand but isn't at the point where she thinks there was a problem.
It's great that she has realized she made some horrible choices and wants to work on your M. With that said, she may need an IC to help her figure out why she was willing to risk destroying your M for something that she said meant nothing to her. That's a question that can't be left unanswered.
I asked her that-- how could she risk M
She said she did not think I would find out....none of her family in the town know about it or know him or saw them. She was very discrete.
But also I think she wanted to do what she wanted to do.... anyway.
Blood tests came back fine. But I mentioned to her that this was the reckless part....what if it wasn't.
I think this event helped her understand that our life our marriage and me are not bad....
My current fear, I wonder if this guy was not that drawn to her... and in the end added to a lack of self esteem..... my W to me is pretty, sexy and beautiful... I would be surprised if a guy would not be drawn to her..... but also I think her personality was off for the past months..... I think the C could help here. But not sure if I have the right assessment
She continues to play along with my working scenario that I started 6 days ago--- we broke up over this, she rents a casita down the street. And assume this happens a year ago... we divorced. And now as we see each other excusing the kids... we may start talking or dating again. Ok so I told her if she wants to she has to ask me to marry her. And share what is important in a MR. see earlier letter she wrote to me. She asked me yesterday about Christmas and if that would be too soon because she wants me to know she is not glossing over the A --- we will get new wedding bands etc
It will be private-- not telling family
She is being a better monther each day. Today she is on afield trip with our 12 year old son
Also can anyone comment on my fear or insecurity.... I now have a fear that my W does not love me.... I never worried about it before..... now I wonder... is she doing this now because I am easy and safe .... did the Other guy not really want her as much as she needed.... why did she have an A with a guy that is below her in my opinion, not educated, poor and no manners..... oh and missing a couple of teeth.....
At face value, she is saying and showing actions that are great. She looked for new wedding bands yesterday for her and me, she is sweet and friendly to me. Just like the girl she was the one I first met...
I do believe she is a thinker and can right the ship better than most. So I have faith that she has come around and she used the phrase -- I f------ up
She is thankful that I have let her come back and given her another chance
I told her that I have forgiven her.
I want to focus on learning all we can an make this an opportunity to make or R stronger. Her as well.
We both are reading about infidelity so we see the same language, have reasonable expectations of what to expect and things to do to move forward
She claims that she was ending it with the other guy during this recent trip... my conversations with her that I was letting her go accelerated the end. She texted the guy that she needed to focus on her life here and then canceled her FB account. That was how they were talking.
We have got along very well the last 6---7 days. I was able to get several key questions answered. She has accepted accountability and when ever I say I could have been better a year ago, she says it is her fault.
She never cries but 10-14 days ago she cried several times as I revealed I was letting her go and then as I shared this was not working and a few days later she I said ithe name of the guy she was sleeping with it was an easy conversation so to the lead up so no crying.
And like i said she never cries.
So yesterday night we were doing some work on the house and she asks me how I was able to find out (from earlier conversation I said I hated doing it but I knew she would deny deny deny so I needed hard data -- I never showed it to her just gave her the guys name). I said I was not proud of it but I was interested in having her come back home so that is why I did it. She loves this answer versus me trying to get one over on her.
So she was curious in a friendly way what else did I do. Without sharing specifics I said I was able to hear one phone call after she came back from recent trip. ... so that is how I triple checked my data that the guys name I had was right. And I said remember I did this in hopes you would come back. She felt bad that I had to hear that. I said well I already knew, I was there, knowing she you were with him because you turned you phone ap off and would not take my call.
She said she was trying to let him down carefully... I said it sounded more like you wanted to see him more on this trip that he was able to see you... (note-we are taking friendly and no yelling ever. I am in a good place even though this has been heart wrenching). She said that was not the case. And then she said she would need some time to process that I heard and felt bad that I had to hear that
Then she cried some and felt shame and embarrassed again. She has notcried in ten days or so...
Ok so then I wondered.... why the tears and emotion again. Is it because of the mistake or that I have so much detail of the mistake or insecurity and maybe it is true that this guy was not attracted enough to her or or or or .... I guess a C comes in here. But until then anyone with ideas would be great
"Also can anyone comment on my fear or insecurity.... I now have a fear that my W does not love me.... I never worried about it before..... now I wonder... is she doing this now because I am easy and safe .... did the Other guy not really want her as much as she needed.... why did she have an A with a guy that is below her in my opinion, not educated, poor and no manners..... oh and missing a couple of teeth..... "
What you and she are going through are perfectly normal. Her tears could very well be for the breakup of her relationship with the other person. There's usually a mourning period that the WAS goes through when they end an A. That's why I was concerned when you described your W as just reading books, etc. None of them will prepare you for the impact of what had happened.
You might think we're a broken record for suggesting it, but that's why getting a C is essential. You can even try C with MWD. And she needs to be the one to initiate it. That will be an indicator of how committed she is to the M.
Going through your wedding vows again, etc. may seem romantic and all, but it's just another band-aid. Look at Jon and Kate. They did the whole renew vows bit and divorced within a year.
When she said she needed to process more about me knowing more from the phone call she also said " I made the bed I have to sleep in". Never heard her say that old time phrase. This is why I am hopeful that she is really doing the thinking
"This is why I am hopeful that she is really doing the thinking"
This is actually bad. You really don't know what she's thinking. She could also very well convince herself that leaving you is the "true" path to become independent. That's how my W was at first and lead her to stay away even longer.
Renewing the vows is not for romance. It is to establish boundaries, commitment etc and to signify the significance of the A and the damage to the MR. maybe stronger is that I said we broke up over this. If you want to be married to me-- you will have to ask me to marry you again - and tell me what is important to you in a new marriage ... as I have restablished being man versus a H so to speak.
That being said. I will take advice and look for her to drive C
So far to me seems to be playing out as typical WW behaviour.
I think you have let her back in to easily you are now love blind. Have you focused on you at all? all we hear is updates about how shes trying, i thought the same too in my sich- she did everything i asked and needed. Turned out to be a phase from getting caught.
It was only when i stood back during physical separation that did it dawn on me how ruined the M is. You have a grieving process to go through too and its going to suck alot (like months and months and months alot) before it gets better.
For myself -- I have worked on my fitness and my work. I lead a small company and that helps me a little to move on.
I am scared that my W may not truly love me anymore. At face cake she is doing many good things but now I have fear that I hope to resolve. I keep working on trust even with the history.
Face value is what I meant to say above
I read your post however and thought I would throw a brief response from a guy who has been where you are.
First of all relax and breathe, a lot!
Do you have friends and social activities ti keep you busy (Hobbies)? If not find them and start doing them. One mistake often made by people going through this is they forget that they have a life to live.
Regardless of how your situation turns out you have been given an opportunity to focus on yourself. Find those things that mean something to you and get involved in them. Many times our marriages define us and we forget to live for our own cause, instead we live to be married.
Your spouse will make her way through this on her own. Nothing you do or say to her about this will help because you are the big question that she has conflict with inside herself. She has to work through her issues in this manner because right now you are simply a reminder to her of her own failures and infidelity.
When a marriage hits a fork in the road or stumbling block like this it becomes a battle of conscience. For her it is about working through her actions and figuring out how she lost her way. For you it is about focusing on yourself and learning about forgiveness. We fight the hard fight to save our marriages and sometimes in the end do not have the ability to forgive what we thought we could.
Read, read, read. Post when you can. Focus on you and your life.
For god's sake do not look for reasons for her actions. I promise you will drive yourself nuts over analyzing them. Be polite, treat her with the respect that your wife deserves. Be a man of character who can look back at all of this no matter how it turns out and have respect for himself for always being in control.
Understand that marriages go through rough patches and sometimes one partner has to carry the torch for the relationship while the other struggles through their demons. In the end, whether your marriage is saved or not, she will know that her husband stood for her and tried as hard as he could to keep his promise.
Our own integrity and character are the only things we can control in your situation so stay focused and keep yourself busy.
Hope this helps.
Ian
There you go. So do that.
Play a little game with yourself, ask yourself "what if?"
Like what if it doesnt work out, what will you do to put yourself in a better place, what have you always wanted to do, what can you do that you may have held back from doing (except for other women ofcourse).
Stop analysing her (i did that and it got me nowhere, actually it spiraled me down into a deep dark hole) and Figure out what you can do to be happy. Focus on yourself. Become a dude that is happy and confident, one that would make any woman a fool to leave.
Ian-- this very helpful. I reflected on your post today and realized I was stuck trying to understand... also like the other paragraphs will focus on my own character and being busy.
Thanks again for this post. A month ago I felt alone and today I feel like this is part of life and others have made it.
As much as you want to get through this terrible part of your life, and even though you are working hard.....some of these things take time. She has an emotional process she has to go through, in order for her to genuinely get to the place to have a happy & loving MR again. From what I've learned, the H can't bounce back overnight, either.
I think I can see where you are wanting to go with this idea of dating as if it's a year after you two have divorced. But Steady, you are trying to skip over a critical period that's necessary for the healing process.
If she is being completely honest and has ended all contact with OM, then that's the first step toward reconciliation. However, as bad of a taste as it leaves in your mouth, she has got to go through the withdrawals. An affair is highly addictive. Even an emotional or imaginary affair has powerful effects on a woman. She needs a recovery/prevention plan, much like any other addict when in rehab. No connections, suppliers, sources, etc. That means no friends who would cover up details for her contacting OM, deleting all social media, phone numbers, old messages, pictures, or anything that would be a trigger. She doesn't need to go back to her hometown for a long, long time. Accountability, like a transparency plan, to help her stick to the straight & narrow road.....is crucial. This is not the time to "just trust her word". She should have the challenge of earning your trust, after betraying you.
You need access to all her messages. She doesn't need to know when or if you'll be looking, and you don't have to check every day.....but you do need to monitor her messaging activity during the first year after an A, at the very least. She doesn't need to be on the computer behind closed doors, taking "private" calls, staying out late with the girls at the bar, staying overnight, or taking weekend trips without you. Not while she's going through this withdrawal period. Even if she says it makes her sick to think of the OM, it needs to be treated as an addiction. Do not sweep this under the rug.
Stop telling her she will need to ask you to M her. Don't jump into romance. I think you are rushing the vows ceremony, but that's MHO. She has to get every trace of OM out of her system before she can emotionally receive another man (even you) into her heart again. The A was a salve to feel better, not b/c the OM was richer, better looking, or whatever. It was all about her and how she felt. Those feelings didn't just disappear when she got caught. If she feels remorse, and she's willing to work to save the M......then it stands a real shot in succeeding. But you've got to give time to healing.
All these fears you are experiencing is part of the process for you. You jumped right in there to tell her you forgave her, didn't you? Well, I think you'll have an angry period, where you start resenting what she's done. A lot of LBH's become the WAH after the WW ends her A. Know why? They are so focused on the A/OM, and are targeted on getting her to stay in the M........so when it happens, then he has some type of delayed reaction. Where he previously felt heartache due to her A/OM......now it's added to all kind of doubts and fears, plus the feelings of unforgiveness rearing its ugly head. Slow down, Steady, and find a qualified therapist to help in guiding a couple after an affair in the M.
There have been a few men who wanted us to believe they just sailed right past all of that and their WW's were madly in love with them as soon as the A was over. I say they are full of b.s. It is a painful healing process for both you and your W! I think a lot of couples don't make it through piecing the M back together, b/c they believe they can figure it out on their own.
Awesome thanks sandi... I need this just as much as steady... we are at similar points
Thanks Sandi-- I am still reflecting and have taken a couple of days off of talking about and thinking about R. Mostly just working on my fitness and my mind and around the house.
My W has made several comments over the past couple of days- unprompted like " I did a lot of good things over the past 16 years and one very bad thing .... that ruins it". And. " I hope some day you can look at me close to the way you used too"
She is doing better with the kids still. I have complete access to devices.