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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692430#Post2692430Thread 3:
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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2699765#Post2699765Well, my 17th anniversary came and went yesterday. No mention or acknowledgment whatsoever from my wife. I filled the day as best I could with GAL -- took my daughter to church (not a believer, but I was so touched that she invited me!), took both kids out to eat for lunch, worked out, went on a drive in the country and took some pictures. I feel like something inside me shifted yesterday. I don't really even want to look at her anymore. I don't think I'd reconcile with her at this point even if she wanted to -- which she doesn't. I'm sure my emotions will swing back the other way soon enough, and I'll be crying in my car again or some such, but this feeling is new. She is so emotionally stunted -- I have started really thinking I'd be happier alone for the rest of my life than I have been with her for the last several years. And that's worst case; I could possibly find someone else who's not so mean and doesn't hold me in such disdain. That would be nice.
Happy anniversary, dude. Your W may not have held up her end of the bargain, but you did. Integrity.
I appreciate your voice in this forum and in my thread. It helps.
Happy anniversary JRuss...I agree with FG...you have integrity and have worked on saving your M on your end! It totally stinks but at least you got to spend the day with your kids!!
Thanks to both of you guys.
She was nicer last night and this AM, but I'm still feeling very disconnected, like something shifted, or a light inside me I'd been tending went out, when she let the anniversary go by with no comment. It's a game she doesn't even know she's playing (distance, distance, distance, then creep back slightly when she feels me pull away), and that lack of self-awareness isn't appealing to me. I also feel like there's no plausible way I can blueprint out in my mind how we'd ever reconnect at this point. What could that possibly look like? She'd have to undergo a radical transformation, and I think her problems aren't really of the sort that are amenable to change. I don't think she's capable of a relationship that would work for a non-doormat.
I'm going to start getting smart w/r/t co-parenting and how to be the best one possible. Can anyone recommend any books (if that's allowed on the Forum)?
It's a game she doesn't even know she's playing (distance, distance, distance, then creep back slightly when she feels me pull away)
The only way this is possible is if you are moving in and out as well. How can she "feel you pull away" if you are just standing still?
I also feel like there's no plausible way I can blueprint out in my mind how we'd ever reconnect at this point. What could that possibly look like?
Just curious as to why this matters right now.
darknes ==
I definitely was right there playing the pursuit/distance game. When I say pulling away, I guess I mean those times when I remember not to pursue. Previously, that took effort, because I wanted to pursue her and do something to close what I felt was a growing distance between us, and I eventually always fell back into that. Just recently, I'm asking myself if I really want to be with this woman which, as I mentioned, feels very different to me. I don't know that she felt anything along those lines might be going on, but she was (for her these days) nice, even affectionate last night and this AM, and we're barely removed from her purposefully ignoring our anniversary all day Sunday. Which is a game -- albeit one being played by someone who doesn't know she's playing it -- pure and simple. I am getting tired of being a party to it.
I'm sure there's some sort of Zen-type reason why I shouldn't care that I can't right now imagine how I'd ever reconcile with my W, but I don't see what that reason would be. It seems pretty important to me.
JR -- I think only you can know when you've reached the end of your path, at least the segment that you are on, and realize you have to get on a different road. For me it was when I saw myself doing things out of desperation that I was not proud of. I used to tell my W that ... when certain bad things came to fruition after a long time ... that the dice was rolled long ago. In my case, as tragic and heart wrenching as it feels, I came to believe that the dice was rolled long ago when I decided to marry my W and have children. That is the reality. And I realized that to continue to battle and deny that reality is not mentally and emotionally healthy for myself.
She'd have to undergo a radical transformation, and I think her problems aren't really of the sort that are amenable to change. I don't think she's capable of a relationship that would work for a non-doormat.
You may be right, however, let me share what I witnessed several years ago. There was a man who had been in a M for many years, and had about three or four grandchildren. He verbally and mentally abused his family. Eventually, the family fell apart (long story) and his W (who was definitely a doormat) finally had the courage to D him.
So.....he meets a new woman and they get M. It seems she doesn't take
any of his cr@p, and has completely changed him from the man he used be! It just amazes people who knew him from the past.
I believe we teach people how to treat us. That goes double for spouses!
JR-- one more thing. I'm not sure this is right for you, but I suggest it just so you can entertain the ideas. You have been suffering for a very long time. It has inspired you to improve yourself in many ways, but that kind of suffering can also squash your soul in ways you don't realize. In-house separation is hell. Your kids may see this in ways that you don't fully realize. What if, as your possible next path, you chart out a path to separation? This could be cold water on your W's wishy-washy, self-centered dictate that you stew in the threat of D for two years, to kind of mangle metaphors. At least in your head, what might a road to separation look like? A separation done under YOUR terms, one that minimizes hurt on your kids? Something that lets YOU move ahead without the punishing whims of your wife's self-centered indecision?
I've thought a lot about it recently, ForGump. I'd LIKE to tell her she needs to move out if this life is really oh so hard for her, and I'll stay in the house and have the kids 100% of the time. We can work something out where she can visit at set times. In truth, though, she's a very good mom, and this wouldn't be in the kids' best interests.
Where I think we'd end up, because our youngest needs to stay in this school district at least through this school year and next is some sort of short-term apartment or studio lease where I go part of the time, and she goes part of the time, with the kids always at home, just with a different solo parent per whatever schedule we agree to. It would suck in its own ways -- mainly loss of time with kids, but also because I'm just not an apartment person (light sleeper, like to escape to recharge) -- but then the status quo is pretty exhausting.
I definitely was right there playing the pursuit/distance game.
Which is a game -- albeit one being played by someone who doesn't know she's playing it -- pure and simple.
This was my point I guess. She isnt going to stop until you can become more consistent. How can you say she's the only only "playing the game" when you are coming and going like the tides as well?
So what will you do to be more consistent?
I'm sure there's some sort of Zen-type reason why I shouldn't care that I can't right now imagine how I'd ever reconcile with my W, but I don't see what that reason would be. It seems pretty important to me.
It isnt zen.
Its that you cant possibly know how it would happen anyway.
Let's say I wanted to become a professional soccer player right now. Sure, it's a longshot, but let's say that was my goal. Do you think I would have every step of it planned out? Of course not. But I would at least start with a few things that I know how to do - Id go buy a ball, Id start running, Id maybe join a rec team, and so on. Then, once I hit those goals, Id look to whats next. I could spend my time worrying about what happens if I get drafted by a team and I have to move to a new city, but at this stage, it's totally irrelevant.
darknes -- that makes sense, if you do in fact want to be a professional soccer player. However, what if you'd been working on becoming one for 2.5 years, poured your soul into it, thought you really wanted it, but, lately were becoming increasingly struck with the thought that maybe you don't like soccer as much as you thought you did? What if soccer -- despite your efforts to make yourself the best player you could be -- made you unhappy? What if, every time you pulled up to the soccer field in your car, you felt dread and wondered how you'd get through the next practice? What if, despite looking for some glimmer for 2.5 years, soccer always found you wanting and not good enough?
Would you keep playing soccer, or just move onto whatever's next?
sandi2 -- are you saying the abused family in your example had it coming to them, because they didn't or couldn't stand up to an abusive a$$hole?
JR-- you guys still in separate bedrooms? Does that help alleviate your torment?
I'm not pushing this at all, but just hypothetically...
What would your W say, do you think, if you suggested that she move out and you guys work out a schedule for her to come by. She could even come by every morning and evening.
I've heard of that type of arrangement, as well as one where both parents actually share the same apartment in alternating time schedules.
(None of this would have *ever* worked for my situation. W too irrational)
ForGump -- yes, still separate bedrooms. Sold to me as a one-night thing after our last fight/R talk but obviously fully intended to be long-term/permanent. This is an outgrowth, I'm sure, of her hiring the IC, err divorce coach, I was (rightly) worried about. She's all about there not being any "mixed messages". In terms of alleviation of torment, at first I was horribly hurt by it but am actually sleeping a little better the last couple of nights, so it hasn't been entirely bad. I realized I was fundamentally exhausted trying and thinking and worrying and not sleeping pretty much all the time, so it's been good to fall asleep and stay asleep for 4-5 hours without waking up and staring at the ceiling.
I don't think she'd go for that separation model, but if I do end up needing physical separation, it's probably where I'll start the discussions so that maybe I end up in a still-good (for me) place.
it's been good to fall asleep and stay asleep for 4-5 hours without waking up and staring at the ceiling.
I know what that feels like. Even now, being a light sleeper, if something wakes me up after about 2am ... I am done.
I have gotten myself a Starbucks card, and got the gold status pretty quickly.
Lost a few pounds too -- which I like, although I would like to have found a different way to lose weight.
I know all about that wake up/stay up thing. 2am seems to be the magic time for me, too. After that, and I might as well get up and start the day. [Note to self: actually get up and start the day and GAL.]
I am down to 162 from 197. It comes from not eating much but also, I think, simply from being in this state so much of the time. It changes your metabolism, at least that's what it feels like.
That is awesome weight loss. Assuming normal height, that probably puts your BMI in a great range. I just weighed myself after a visit to the gym a few minutes ago, and saw I lost about 8 lbs. Which is a lot for me, not because I'm skinny -- my BMI is in a fairly healthy range -- but because I've tried in the past to slim down a bit for health reasons, and always found it extremely hard. What can I say, I like food!
Since whole thing started, I found that hunger just doesn't feel as bad it used to. I don't mind not having breakfast (other than coffee w/ cream & sugar), I don't mind going to bed a little hungry.
sandi2 -- are you saying the abused family in your example had it coming to them, because they didn't or couldn't stand up to an abusive a$$hole?
What?!
Of course not!
Just popping in to say hi, JRuss.
Hope today isn't too bad.
focus22 -- thanks for stopping by, and I appreciate the good wishes! I'm trying to focus on what I have and not so much on what I don't, which I think is what everyone should do, but especially LBSs.
Sorry sandi2 -- I was in a bitter, frustrated mood when I asked you that question. I know it's not what you meant when you related your anecdote. Part of me gets pretty nauseated at the idea that such an abusive jerk could destroy one family and land in a different one down the road and be happily content. I side with the first family, whether they knew how to enforce boundaries or not.
focus22 -- thanks for stopping by, and I appreciate the good wishes! I'm trying to focus on what I have and not so much on what I don't, which I think is what everyone should do, but especially LBSs.
Yup, that's a really great plan
Where our attention goes, our energy follows.
Maybe you do this already, but I like to end the day with lying in bed and trying to think of one thing I'm especially grateful for that day. And then another, and another...
And sometimes when I wake up, I try and think of the things I'm looking forward to that day as well. Just to try and set my mind off on a positive track.
Heck, I've even been known to trawl positive/inspirational quotations on Pinterest and read a bunch of those, and read them until I can't stop myself being affected by them and smiling.
Tough journey though...
darknes -- that makes sense, if you do in fact want to be a professional soccer player. However, what if you'd been working on becoming one for 2.5 years, poured your soul into it, thought you really wanted it, but, lately were becoming increasingly struck with the thought that maybe you don't like soccer as much as you thought you did? What if soccer -- despite your efforts to make yourself the best player you could be -- made you unhappy? What if, every time you pulled up to the soccer field in your car, you felt dread and wondered how you'd get through the next practice? What if, despite looking for some glimmer for 2.5 years, soccer always found you wanting and not good enough?
Would you keep playing soccer, or just move onto whatever's next?
I think this is a very different question from this:
I also feel like there's no plausible way I can blueprint out in my mind how we'd ever reconnect at this point.
It sounds like you are at the end of the process looking at the next step. Thats very different from being at the beginning and looking at the end.
If you are at the end of the process, then I think youre next step ar to figure out your next goals. If youre ready to give up soccer, what will you do next with your life?
darknes -- honestly, I have no idea where I am in the process. I just know something that seemed very, very important to hold onto, and that I had held onto for years now, may have drifted away from its moorings when my wife of 17 years couldn't even be bothered to mention our wedding anniversary. I don't know what's next, I don't know what my goals are. This is a new feeling, and it isn't present at all times, but if I keep having it, that will guide me in terms of what my goals are, I think.
focus22 -- I have a collection of inspirational quotes I've copied into my journal. I read them all the time, and it does help.
So today, after me trying to get my W to go to MC with me for over two years, and having pretty much given up on it ever happening (and nursing that grievance that someone could BD, want to blow up the family, etc. and never even try MC for even a second), she tells me today that, if I find a "neutral" MC, she'll "go with me".
I'm deeply skeptical that this is anything other than a guilt-reduction box she's checking. In our last R talk, I told her how I was having trouble moving past the anger I feel that we never even had the chance to go to MC and work together on our problems (I know -- a mistake), so I think she's just doing it, as I said, to reduce her guilt ("see -- it didn't work, and I'm justified") and, maybe, to give me some sort of closure. So my first impulse is to say no and that I'm only willing if I get real assurances that she's all in and motivated to build a new relationship.
But then I think it can't really hurt at this point. We are getting a divorce unless something happens to stop the momentum in that direction, and it has 2+ years of built up steam in that direction, with a lot of bad developments recently. Why not go, at least as long as I know going in that it probably isn't going to work a transformation of my marriage? Maybe it WOULD give me some closure and/or maybe it would help her and I get back to a place where we can at least co-parent effectively. And then there I go, also fantasizing a little that, despite being closed to the idea at the outset, the process might work on her a little and start breaking some of the barriers down that she's built.
Any thoughts?
WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
This is unbelievable development! Happy for you, man. Really.
I really can't imagine this being box-checking.
But I would really invest a lot of effort into finding a good and, most importantly, the RIGHT therapist. Don't just settle for the first one you pick. Do some homework. If it were me, I'd go as far as to visit their office and check out the environment for the right kind of vibe.
I don't know, FG -- it just seems like something she'd discuss with her IC (divorce coach). She's not a sadist. She genuinely agonizes over this and does not want me to be hurt. And this follows so quickly on the heels of her moving out of the MBR that it doesn't feel like any sort of move toward me, just something she thinks she might be able to fake her way through and have me see the light that it really just wasn't meant to be. My IC says go but protect myself re expectations, fwiw.
Definitely would research the best possible MC, but I don't live in a huge town, so options are a bit limited relative to a bigger market. My IC has a couple of names, so I'm going to do some digging.
I wonder if MC's would meet w/ you for 10-15 minutes, just to help you get a sense of their style and orientation. Assuming your W is OK w/ this as a part of vetting for a neutral MC.
I mean, if I were given this golden chance, that's what I would try to do...
That's the mind f, though, FG -- seeing it as a "golden chance". I am not sure I can handle the hope-to-collapsed-hope cycle again at this point.
JRuss,
My wife always resisted MC. She always insisted that we could just "talk things out between us." I felt like we needed a third party in order to get a subjective viewpoint. (My wife has an aversion to counseling, but that's a long story.)
Anyway, back in January we'd had yet another argument and after the argument she said, "This is the way I see it; it's either marriage counseling or get a lawyer." I was completely surprised that she mentioned MC, and of course, I took the MC option. Unfortunately, when we went to see the MC it became obvious that she had no intention of making things work.
Looking back, it was obvious that she was just checking things off of her list and MC was one of the things to be checked off. Her agenda was clear, she just needed an MC session to reduce her feelings of guilt. I actually got her to go to three sessions, but with each session, things got worse.
However, I'm glad we went to MC. MC wasn't going to change our marriage relationship, but the MC became my IC and she was was priceless. I owe that woman so much. (And I literally owe her a $20 co-pay that I forgot to give her. She's going to get her $20 along with a big thank you card.)
Thanks, doodler. I guess that's where I am. I'll go, and I'll try, and I'll watch to see if there's a real attempt being made, but I really want to be detached as to the chances for "success", whatever that would look like. I don't see any other way to go at this point. That really goes for the R as a whole, doesn't it?
(I have my own IC already whom I've been seeing for 17 months now, and she really helped me save myself from the really abject, dark days immediately post-BD).
Part of me gets pretty nauseated at the idea that such an abusive jerk could destroy one family and land in a different one down the road and be happily content. I side with the first family, whether they knew how to enforce boundaries or not.
I don't know if the man is happy & content, or not. That was not my point. I make a lousy encourager b/c I was trying to give you some hope that people can change.
As for a
WW going down the road and being happier with a second H.........if she has the same mindset, the chances are very slim, IMHO.
sandi2 -- you do not make a lousy encourager. A depressed/upset LBS just isn't always capable of hearing the encouragement in every moment. I hope you'll keep swinging by my thread!
JRuss -- box-checking or not, I would take a chance to go to an MC w/ my W; as opposed to having no MC.
Maybe the first question you can tackle together at MC is, "What do you honestly hope to gain from MC?" The implied question is, "Are we just box-checking? Or is this marriage -- at least in theory -- salvageable?"
I don't know why but I remain optimistic, that this isn't box-checking, that your W has at least a smidgen of doubt about where she's going.
I'm just projecting my situation onto yours, but if I had the chance to do MC with her, I would explore the question, "What do you think you're getting by doing a divorce?" And "Will you really be happy after a divorce?" "Won't your demons still be there?" And hope that the W will figure herself out first before causing collateral damage on the family for her own unhappiness.
ForGump -- I really have no idea how MC will go, what the counselor will do or say, whether my W will do any real talking or sit there and let me do it all. Not sure, but we'll find out!
focus22 -- I have a collection of inspirational quotes I've copied into my journal. I read them all the time, and it does help.
So today, after me trying to get my W to go to MC with me for over two years, and having pretty much given up on it ever happening (and nursing that grievance that someone could BD, want to blow up the family, etc. and never even try MC for even a second), she tells me today that, if I find a "neutral" MC, she'll "go with me".
I'm deeply skeptical that this is anything other than a guilt-reduction box she's checking. In our last R talk, I told her how I was having trouble moving past the anger I feel that we never even had the chance to go to MC and work together on our problems (I know -- a mistake), so I think she's just doing it, as I said, to reduce her guilt ("see -- it didn't work, and I'm justified") and, maybe, to give me some sort of closure. So my first impulse is to say no and that I'm only willing if I get real assurances that she's all in and motivated to build a new relationship.
But then I think it can't really hurt at this point. We are getting a divorce unless something happens to stop the momentum in that direction, and it has 2+ years of built up steam in that direction, with a lot of bad developments recently. Why not go, at least as long as I know going in that it probably isn't going to work a transformation of my marriage? Maybe it WOULD give me some closure and/or maybe it would help her and I get back to a place where we can at least co-parent effectively. And then there I go, also fantasizing a little that, despite being closed to the idea at the outset, the process might work on her a little and start breaking some of the barriers down that she's built.
Any thoughts?
JR, you have a lot of the same doubts that I have with my W suddenly offering to go to MC. I find myself wondering if she's checking a box, trying to alleviate guilt, trying to leverage it to get me to see her view of custody as the right one, or if she is "falling on the sword" for our D9 by staying with me since I won't give her the 90% custody she wants. Regardless, I'm taking the approach of going and using my Ws actions and level of interest to gauge what her intentions are.
You and I seem to be at a similar spot emotions wise. I feel like I'm at a spot where I am fine if things don't work out with my W. I look at this woman who I loved and I just don't see the same person. I also don't see any way that we can work back towards a R both of us can be happy in. I completely get your feeling lost with regards to not seeing how you can possibly R.
All that said, I'd offer you give the MC a chance, if only to see what her motivation is. If her motivation is not driven by fixing the MR then it's easy enough to shut down the MC. I do wonder if the MC is a way for our Ws to regain control, as I was at a similar spot as you when my W offered it. Who knows.
The confusion of all of this is driving me nuts as well JR. I think at this point we don't hold out hope for the MC, but we are open to putting in the work if our Ws are. The key is not to lose focus on bettering ourselves and being their for our kids while the confusion tries to steal our focus.
Hang in there brother and I hope the MC offer is a genuinely good thing. Like everything else in our situations, it appears to be a waiting game.
I hope MC went well for you today, lt0402.
My weekend was pretty good. Lots of GAL -- took D12 to her cross country meet, D10 to his soccer game. Took D12 to church (our new tradition -- crazy what an agnostic (at best) Dad will do for a daughter) on Sunday. Worked out both days. Last night around sunset I went out and took a bunch of photographs on my phone then played with filters and cropped them, etc.
W and I did have a relatively mild R talk Sunday AM. She brought it up, which is not our usual MO. She said that she heard from our mutual friend that two other friends with whom W and I hung out last weekend (9/17) called mutual friend separately and asked if there was something wrong with me. I've lost a lot of weight, and they hadn't seen me for a while, and they said I was talking about not being able to sleep well. I don't really remember the conversation they are remembering but think it may have been something general like doesn't it stink not being able to sleep like we used to now that we're getting older, and I maybe chimed in that I wasn't sleeping all that great, too. I didn't think anything of it. I probably was a little down or more somber than usual, though, since my anniversary was going to be the following day, and it had become clear we weren't going to mark it all and that W likely wouldn't even mention it (which did end up being the case),and that was definitely bothering me at that time.
Well, this irritated W. She said if I can't be "less sad" when we go out, then we won't be able to do couples things anymore because she's "not ready to make an announcement" as to our status and "wouldn't even know what to announce".
I mainly just listened. It struck me as a bit of victim blaming. As I've thought about it more, W does get upset anytime she feels anything hinting at guilt or touching on the human cost of her decisions. Basically, I think she thinks we'll eventually create a public persona on the breakup and both say it was completely mutual, and she'll not have to be the bad guy in any of it. Well, I'm not doing anything but what I feel like doing on that front when the time comes, so there's bound to be more frustration on her part.
This reminds me of conversations I have had w/ my IC -- where she encouraged me to express my feelings to my W, that what she's chosen to do is really hard on me. She thought being authentic and expressive is a part of not being a doormat.
But of course it conflicts a bit with DB, where we're supposed to act like we are detached and our W's have on effect on us.
Maybe we can be both. At least I'm being both. Detached much of the time but then also down some of the times.
p.s. JRuss -- I do think your wife criticizing you is definitely victim blaming. She's breaking your heart, and is blaming you for not being able to keep yourself together.
I agree, FG, although I definitely did not intend to give anyone a look-see into my situation that night. The anniversary really got me down, though, so I'm sure I wasn't all that peppy. Honestly, I think the weight loss might have been the biggest thing. I think they were thinking I had some sort of systemic illness and never thought about marital problems.
My W doesn't understand how feelings work, I don't think. She feels guilt and blames me for making her feel it. She thinks I manipulate her and say things that are designed to make her feel guilty. I know we're supposed to validate, but this is BS, and I told her that if I had the power to make her feel anyway I wanted her to feel, I'd long ago have scattered my pixie dust and made her feel like I'm the greatest man in he world. I said I'm actually pretty self-interested in all of this, and my interests aren't served well at all by making her feel guilty, since it tends to drive her away. No real response to that from her.
I forgot to mention that she told me she's not going on a fall break trip with me and the kids. She said I could take them, or she would, but that she didn't want to go together, have to deal with separate bedrooms, etc. I'm definitely taking them. Talk about your no-brainer decision.
I told her that if I had the power to make her feel anyway I wanted her to feel, I'd long ago have scattered my pixie dust and made her feel like I'm the greatest man in he world.
Good answer! I'm gonna remember that one for me!
Yeah, stay alone vs. go on a fun trip with my kids -- definitely a no brainer for me too.
Part of validation is understanding you can MAKE your spouse feel one thing or another. I would have said, "I can see how that would be concerning, sometimes I am going to feel sad and it will show." Full stop. You aren't making her feel one thing or another, she is responsible for her emotions and that includes the guilt for walking out of her marriage. You can also just agree to disagree. If she threatens to stop outtings together unless you "pull it together" then just say, "That would be regretful but I can understand why you would choose to do that."
This puts the onus back on her without you getting into an argument while keeping boundaries in place.
"I can understand why you would choose to do that."
Thanks!!!
I should've learned to do this years ago........
PsySara -- thanks for the thoughts re validation. I get what you're saying, but, at times, I think the line between validating and not being a doormat is almost impossible to navigate. There are certain things -- like blaming and finding fault with someone who's suffering because they aren't acting like nothing's wrong at all times -- that shouldn't be validated. IMO. I could be wrong. I usually am.
Nothing much new to report. Cold indifference from W with occasional flits of irritation/annoyance. Typically I'd mind read as to what's going on in her head, but I'm trying to avoid doing that.
On the upside, I've booked a place at the beach to take the kids for four nights for their Fall Break from school. W was asked by S10 point blank last night if she's coming. She said no -- she has to work. It made me sad to see her lying as to the reason and him not fully buying it. The kids know more than she seems to realize.
Oh how this all [censored]. Trying very hard to be not gloomy or show that any of this impacts me or my mood. Not always succeeding.
Hey JR, don't think you can worry about her saying no to the beach trip. It does suck that she wouldn't join ya'll, but I've no doubt you'll make the time Awesome for your kids!
I'd take pride in being a rock for your children. That should be about as uplifting as it gets! I know when D and I went away together it was like all of the stress was lifted away. We had an awesome time. I think the trip is something you should really be looking forward to!
Done any GAL stuff recently? May be a good time to get out and take some focus off the situation.
JR, I've done similar things, though not for as many nights. And although there was initial disappointment, and even worrying about what my W would do -- i.e., go out and cheat -- eventually I settled onto the feeling that it's a necessary and good thing for my W to be alone. She needs that time alone to feel what it's like to be alone, and to sort out her own feelings.
In-house separation is classic Greek tragedy: everything is set up to fail.
I know it scuks, but just trying to put a positive spin on things....
In-house separation is classic Greek tragedy: everything is set up to fail.
Well put FG. At this point waterboarding may be like a vacation compared to in-house S.
Thanks to both of you -- I really appreciate you stopping by. I am definitely looking forward to the trip with the kids. Hopefully the weather is good. They should have a blast.
Re the sitch, I'm getting pretty discouraged in all honesty. I'm still committed to GALing, 180s, etc., but it is hard not to notice that all of the momentum seems to be toward continued, intensifying distance between us. I really continue to struggle, as I always have, with detaching. As both of you know, it's hard to do when you live under the same roof. I have IC tomorrow, and hopefully that will help my outlook -- it usually does.
I hope you both are able to get some peace in your lives -- I really think sometimes my mind might snap under all of this stress, and I shudder to think what might be happening on the genes/chromosomal level given how long we've all been under this reign of relationship terror.
To better days for all of us!
Any progress on MC? Have you vetted/picked a counselor?
I am definitely looking forward to the trip with the kids. Hopefully the weather is good. They should have a blast.
This is all you need to care about, which you know fully and completely at this point in your game. Above you express the right attitude, the right priorities, and the right people.
I really continue to struggle, as I always have, with detaching. As both of you know, it's hard to do when you live under the same roof.
JRuss,
For me, I am glad live-in ended, regardless of what will be. I will say though, reading what I quoted from you. It made me want to share this...I work with trees for a living. Trees fascinate me. One of the amazing traits of trees - if a tree is wounded, the wound remain for life. Tree compartmentalize their wounds, that is to say, the wound is sealed off to prevent further damage to the overall structure, but the damage remains inside as the body continues to grow. In time, all physical remnants of the damage become small fissures on the outside, unnoticed by the untrained. This is because trees generate cells, they do not regenerate cells. In mammals, they get injured, damage cells are replaced and sometimes result in scars where cells are not efficient. In trees, they get injured, damaged cells remain, new cells cover them up. Trees only put new growth in places where reinforcement is required, no energy is wasted, e.g. the wind blows hard, micro-fractures occur inside, new cells are produced to reinforce. These new cells make the locations of old wounds stronger.
The lesson here is not to seal off wounds, but to put new strength where it is required. When I looked at your sitch dates again and read you are still GAL'ing and 180, I felt proud for you - reminded me of trees; strength is placed where strength is required. You remain in a wind storm, you remain standing. This is physiological mechanics. This is the slow power of a nature which can live beyond us. This is you leaving an example for your children. Wise old oak.
FG -- yes, MC chosen and date set (10/12). MC appears to be "pro-marriage" in outlook, and that's what I wanted, although I recognize W may not engage. I still think she's probably doing this as a guilt-reduction move and not serious about trying, and I think the MC will pretty quickly pull the plug if she indeed is pro-marriage, but I figured if we start with a marriage-neutral MC, we'd immediately land in the not-trying, just trying to learn how to most peacefully decouple as possible zone. We will see.
CT1118 -- thank you for your awesome post. I tend to get down on myself and my efforts (too results oriented, not detached, "peeking" to see if they are "working"), and it was great to read your take on things. I really like the imagery of an oak tree. I feel more like a weeping willow most times, though, so "Be an Oak" is a good mantra for me. Thanks again.
Hi JR,
I know I am late to the party :-) I read this thread, but did not read all the way back. Is or has there been any type of A? Or is she WAW?
I'm confused at to why you want to go to MC if your wife is not committed to making things work? You have said more than once that she is box checking and so I am concerned that you are giving that to her. I am afraid that if she is not committed to piecing, that she will use MC as a way to validate that she should move forward with D. MC can be intense and bring lots of baggage to the surface, and so without a solid foundation, I do agree that you may be giving her that check mark.
My sitch is diff in that my H is not a woman (but was a giant wus) and was quite wayward in his fog. Well he did pull this box checking on me and it was terribly painful! We went to MC about 2 mos after he moved out and I was very hopeful it would lead to reconciliation. I was so wrong! He was just using it as a platform to absolve some of his guilt for being a cheating POS. So I found myself more hurt with additional humiliation to boot.
Even when he left OW I was weary of going back to MC because I did not yet see he was ready to piece. I was right, he left her, waffled for a couple months, and then ran back. I am glad I didn't go to MC and give him another opportunity to reject me (and with the support of a professional). Because they will take their word and use it to their full advantage.
It wasn't until 8 mos later when he cut all ties with OW, did a sharp 180, and was committed to the M, that I found MC helpful. And even then it was difficult and painful. It is emotional and intense. So my fear for you is that this could cause you some insult to injury.
Perhaps before agreeing to MC you can share your goals of it with one another. If she is not committed to making the M work for some amount of time then you can reevaluate your expectations of it. I think you owe yourself that much if you are handing out free check marks :-)
I just want to see you protect your heart!
Blu
Hi BluWave -- W hasn't flatly disavowed working on the marriage and trying to make it work, but we are also by no means piecing. She has said she'll go into MC with an open mind, so I'm going to do it. Were I to have turned her down, after asking her for 2 years to go and even telling her how much it had hurt me that she'd never been willing to try, I think the guilt box would have also been checked off for her (if that's what this is really all about), but with no possibility that MC would be in any way helpful. This way, there's at least a possibility of some improvement, albeit I need to keep my expectations low for my own health.
CT-- I too work w/ trees.
JR-- How did you select the MC? Just curious, because, man, there are all kinds of counselors out there.
Blu/JR-- Yes, I think it's important to stay aware of the possibility that a WW will abuse the MC. In that case, yeah, pull the plug. My take on JR's situation is that, JR's suspicions notwithstanding, there is not yet sufficient evidence to conclude his WW just wants to box check and abuse his good faith engagement in MC.
FG -- I asked for recommendations from my IC and got a few names. I then looked at all of their websites and reviewed qualifications and training, what they say they try to do, where their bias is (marriage or neutral). I've read where Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) has the best results, so I eliminated anyone that didn't utilize that in their practice. That got me down to two names, and I gave both of them to my W and let her pick, thinking that would minimize the risk she'd say I crammed a bad pro-me choice down on her. She apparently ran it by her IC and picked the one we're going with.
I will bail in short order if I get the sense W is just going through the motions. I also think the therapist we've chosen will also pull the plug if she sees the same, since she has a pro-marriage bias.
I do not work with trees but sure do love them. Watching them move in the breeze is a favorite meditative practice of mine.
... where their bias is (marriage or neutral)
Is that something state explicitly on their websites? Or are there code words for being pro-marriage or pro-divorce?
It's usually more in the nature of code words and the descriptions they use as to what they do. Pro marriage might be something like "I will give you the tools to help the two of you repair a damaged connection", whereas "help with navigating transitions" would be more in the nature of a neutral or divorce coach.
Makes me wonder if my IC is pro-divorce. Her website talks about breaking patterns that lead to unhappiness. Is that code language for pro-divorce?
Kind of felt that way when I first began meeting w/ her. But I didn't simply buy into everything she said -- I've stayed true to my feelings and values even when she was nudging me in certain directions.
JR -- I know you feel ineffective and even weak at times, but I look at how you've held on, held out, for so long, and I see unwavering core values. I respect that. Your kids will see that.
FG -- thank you for the support, now and ever since I first started posting. You've really been a lifeline in such a bad time. Here's to both of us emerging on the other side in good shape, whatever that ends up looking like.
Re ICs, I think most think only of what would make the client happy in the quickest way possible, whereas MCs, at least "pro-marriage" ones, are really working "for" the marriage, i.e., the marriage itself is the real client. My IC would never come out and say it, but I don't believe she thinks my W is capable of being the sort of spouse I need in order to be happily married. So I'm cognizant of her gently nudging me through the grief cycle, and I don't begrudge it -- heck, I frequently think I do just need to give it up. Where I think a client would need to make a change is where the IC gets frustrated at the pace at which you're moving, if that makes sense.
Well, we almost made it through the weekend without anything negative happening . . .
W wanted to take validating friend out to brunch Sunday AM for validating friend's birthday. I told her I'd be happy to watch the kids and that she should have a good time. She said thanks and that she'd be back "in an hour or so". She comes home 2.5 hours later, no call or text to say she's running late. I'm pretty pissy when she shows up. Tell her she should have at least texted. She says she didn't know she'd be keep us from doing anything by being gone. I said she wouldn't have and didn't, but it was just a matter of common courtesy. I told her that she certainly would have let, say, validating friend or her parents or pretty much anyone else know she was running behind, and that I'd simply like to be treated similarly. She got angry and was escalating, and I told her to stop, that I'd said what I wanted to say, and that we didn't need to get into a big fight over it. She stood down but things were icy the rest of the day and evening.
I know one of Sandi's rules is not to inquire where they are or what they are doing. But I also know LBS aren't supposed to be total doormats. I do think she'd have communicated in some way with anyone else in the same situation, so I'm not sure what I should have done. I certainly could have been more matter-of-fact about it (I was too overtly pissed), but I'm getting sick of the lack of respect and am getting tired of her thinking she can treat me like she owns me.
Sorry JR, but I think I would have let this one go. A brunch always takes more than an hour, so I would've taken your W's promise of "an hour or so" with a shovel of salt. And then when she didn't return w/i an hour, I would've just gone on w/ whatever you had in mind to do w/ the kids -- and just send her a text saying so. "Kids & I are going for a bike ride, then probably grab lunch. Should be back in two hours or so. Enjoy brunch."
I think not being her doormat doesn't mean critiquing her when she misbehaves, but going about your own life as if you don't care.
Speaking as one who is still in in-house-separation, and one who gets pulled into W's stormy waters ....
I guess I do go looking for insults that aren't there. Her not making eye contact with me is another trigger I've noticed. I may be losing my marriage, half my net worth, 50% of my time with my kids, etc., and I'm largely powerless to do anything about those things, so maybe I look to defend myself in these areas because I still can demand respect. Not sure.
Oh man, the eye contact ... so hurtful. I knew she was drifting away and I always hoped that she would drift back... maybe the next day ... no, then maybe the next week ... no, then maybe the next month ... Little did I know at the time that she had sailed her ship off a precipice.
I was talking to my Dad last night and telling him how tired I am. I've been fighting for 2 years now, and at no point in any of all that has there been anything but a downward trajectory. Yes, she's moved very slowly at times, but there's never been a time when I've felt like "Hey, things are better now than they were back when _______". All new developments have been developments involving increased distance, less connection, etc.
I'm not sure I see the point of continuing to "stand for the marriage" or whatever else we try to tell ourselves we're doing. The woman just doesn't want to be with me and doesn't want to live a life that doesn't have this new set of chapters she sees herself writing on her own, with someone new, etc. Yeah, be the best me I can be. I get it. But a lighthouse is a pretty lonely thing to be if no one even wants to look at it.
And that's when I can manage the lighthouse thing in the first place. I don't seem to ever get to a place where I'm not backsliding every few days or once a week, etc.
Hang in there JR... at least until 10/12 to see what comes out in the MC.
Oh man, the eye contact ... so hurtful. I knew she was drifting away and I always hoped that she would drift back... maybe the next day ... no, then maybe the next week ... no, then maybe the next month ... Little did I know at the time that she had sailed her ship off a precipice.
Yep, the lack of eye contact is horrible. FG, you and I have sailed the same waters friend as the above is precisely my story as well.
I guess I do go looking for insults that aren't there. Her not making eye contact with me is another trigger I've noticed. I may be losing my marriage, half my net worth, 50% of my time with my kids, etc., and I'm largely powerless to do anything about those things, so maybe I look to defend myself in these areas because I still can demand respect. Not sure.
JR, I know this feeling. There was a point where I viewed anything the W said to me as confrontational and I treated it as such. Picking your battles here is key and that's where your boundaries come in. Only be willing to fight an die on a hilltop one of your boundaries occupies. The rest of the hills are best left alone.
I'm not sure I see the point of continuing to "stand for the marriage" or whatever else we try to tell ourselves we're doing. The woman just doesn't want to be with me and doesn't want to live a life that doesn't have this new set of chapters she sees herself writing on her own, with someone new, etc. Yeah, be the best me I can be. I get it. But a lighthouse is a pretty lonely thing to be if no one even wants to look at it.
JR, I'm coming to a similar conclusion in my situation as well. Best we can do is keep focusing on ourselves and our kids. Sticking with the lighthouse analogy we've got going, if you build your light to be so bright that it can't go unnoticed, you're bound to get someone (if not your W) seeking it out.
Be strong brother. I agree with FG that you should wait until 10/12 to see what happens. But, don't lose a bit of time continuing to improve yourself. Don't idle until then, use that time productively. Be proud that you've taken a path of standing for your M. It may not work out, but you should have pride in the fact that you are. We're all here to stand with you JR!
Thanks, guys -- the trip to the beach (10/6-10/10) with the kids should be just what the doctor ordered. I'm REALLY looking forward to getting out of the house and having some time away from the sitch, her, etc. I am going completely dark for my own sanity mainly and will just let the kids call her on D12's cellphone if they want to talk to her (I'm sure they will).
Not to sound disagreeable ... but ... JR ... you've been doing self-improvement for two years. Man, enough is enough. Everybody is flawed. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has weaknesses. You've dropped an enormous amount of body weight, and dragged your butt through years of torment to save this marriage. Are we not allowed to be normal, flawed, human beings?
You didn't do drugs, you didn't gamble, you didn't cheat. You wrestled with depression and you dealt with it, and you're dealing with it. You've done nothing but self-improvement for two years while your W treated you shitty.
You're a decent, normal guy. Nothing more, nothing less. Do whatever your heart feels, man. Talk to your wife. Be warm. Be cold. Enjoy your vacation. Enjoy your kids. Call her if you want to. Don't call her if you don't want to.
After all that you've put into this -- what happens now is on her. Not on you, man.
GUmp -- you have a way with words. Yeah, what I want, and need -- for me -- is to not see or talk to her for several days running. I need a break. I am just worn out at this point.
Hey JR, hope the beach trip with the kids is going well. Let us know how you're doing when you get back.
Back now from the Beach with the kids. It was great. Not perfect -- they bickered quite a bit, and I find myself losing patience when they do that (need to keep working on it) -- but still great. The weather was perfect. We ate lots of fun things, hung out, played board games in the evenings, I let them stay up late.
I didn't speak a whole lot with W. Mainly just let the kids call her if/when they wanted to, and we'd occasionally speak very briefly as the phone was being passed around. She didn't initiate any of the calls, and by the last night, the kids didn't seem to feel a need to talk to her, so I just went with that. I find myself really struggling to relate to her mindset, as I fight through the fear of what it will be like when I lose 50% of my life with my kids while simultaneously watching her seemingly relish the coming reduction in parental responsibility.
Back home last night to the same unchanged situation. Cordial roommates, sleeping in separate bedrooms, with me struggling alone in mine, wishing I could figure out how to reverse all of this negative momentum but not being able to do anything, stressing about "being the lighthouse", etc. Tomorrow is our first MC session. I'm pretty nervous. I have IC today and hope to talk to her about how to be best conduct myself, because I'm pretty clueless. I know not to have any expectations, but it's hard not to wonder if we couldn't be one of those couples that seems to genuinely benefit from counseling.
I need to catch up on others' sitches; I'm hoping for good developments for everyone.
D.C.: Lloyd, why do you have to be like this?
Lloyd Dobler: 'Cause I'm a guy. I have pride.
Corey Flood: You're not a guy.
Lloyd Dobler: I am.
Corey Flood: No. The world is full of guys. Be a man. Don't be a guy.
So we went to marriage counseling today for the first time. Wow. It was very intense. The MC seems great (she only works with couples and is "pro relationship", which she told us at the outset), and my W was engaged -- albeit not always saying what a LBS wants to hear (i.e., affirming just how far out the door she is) -- so it felt somewhat successful, and I think she'll be willing to go back.
I honestly had no expectations going in and, in fact, felt like I was going to leave knowing our marriage was over because W just wouldn't care, and that would be the final bit of proof I needed to give up. But that's not how I feel right now. It is a complicated set of emotions, and I don't think "hope" is one of them that I'm feeling, but I feel better in some weird way that I haven't really thought out but intend to.
I've seen several LBSs say they've felt ganged up on in MC. I get it now. I did feel ganged up on at times, as the MC let my wife really go on, and she unloaded. It was hard to hear, but, honestly, my W plays things so closely to the vest when it comes to this stuff, that it was literally the first time I've ever heard her entire perspective, laid out in a linear fashion, as to how she started to struggle with the R, what she did to try to cope, how she eventually gave up, etc. In her communications with me, it's always been bits and pieces and shards, which has been frustrating. I realized that the MC correctly deduced it's my W that is thinking she wants out, so I think there was a method to the ganged up dynamic -- get W talking freely, get her to feel like she can talk, be heard, be safe, etc., because she knows I'm there wanting it to succeed and am already bought in, and W is the one on the fence. In other words, the LBS can "take" the airing of grievances better than the WAS, because of our respective dynamics.
The session was supposed to go 1.5 hours but ended up going over 2, so that's bullish, I guess. I'm mind reading, but the MC seemed pretty jazzed to have the opportunity to work with us. I think we flip her usual script in a lot of ways (W is more like the traditional man in the stereotypical R (closed off emotionally, not sure they want to be in MC, etc., and I'm more like the traditional female, maybe?).
Anyway, I'm really exhausted. I feel like I've been in an emotional boxing ring.
Another thing the MC said -- on average, couples wait 6-7 years to get into MC, and she said "so you guys are right on time".
Gump -- I appreciate the kind words. I'm not sure envy is the right emotion to be feeling given how beat up I'm feeling right now, and, as I said, there wasn't anything in any of it where my W truly came off her position that the marriage should end, but I'm definitely aware that my sitch isn't nearly as bad as what so many people here are going through.
I do think that this MC is about as good as we're going to find in our city, so we're at least in the right place in terms of maximizing any chance.
Your W appears to be engaging you & the counselor in earnest. You're actually having an honest dialog about your marriage. That's a huge victory.
That's a great blast of perspective, FG. Thank you. I found myself thinking as my W unloaded "Why on earth were you unwilling to come here for 2+ years", because we lost so much time and so many things have happened that might not have, but I guess the two of us are each on our own journey, and both journeys have their own unique pacing.
I've seen several LBSs say they've felt ganged up on in MC. I get it now. I did feel ganged up on at times, as the MC let my wife really go on, and she unloaded. It was hard to hear, but, honestly, my W plays things so closely to the vest when it comes to this stuff, that it was literally the first time I've ever heard her entire perspective, laid out in a linear fashion, as to how she started to struggle with the R, what she did to try to cope, how she eventually gave up, etc. In her communications with me, it's always been bits and pieces and shards, which has been frustrating. I realized that the MC correctly deduced it's my W that is thinking she wants out, so I think there was a method to the ganged up dynamic -- get W talking freely, get her to feel like she can talk, be heard, be safe, etc., because she knows I'm there wanting it to succeed and am already bought in, and W is the one on the fence. In other words, the LBS can "take" the airing of grievances better than the WAS, because of our respective dynamics.
Hi JRuss - I hope you don't mind me chiming in. Just wanted to congratulate you getting your WW into MC. Awesome stuff. I can totally relate to your emotions. I remember them well.
I just wanted to point out your part about the LBS taking the heat better. I think you are exactly right. Eventually MC will turn the tables (like a political debate everyone gets a fair shake). To me that is the key part. I can tell you the day that happened with my XW was the last day she showed up at MC. I know a couple of other people that were on the boards with me back in the day experienced the same thing.
Just wanted to prepare for you for that possibility. An old poster with me used to look at the sitch as football game. You always want to be prepared for the other team's defense or offense. You want to have a play ready that you haven't called before. So let this sink in. Think about the possibilities. Prepare. No matter what happens you can act as if that is exactly what you expected to happen. Make sense?
Start game planning. You can handle this.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
That's spectacular news JR! It seems like a step in the right direction that your W was so highly engaged. Sounds like you may be off to a good start.
Mules -- I was just thinking the exact same thing. Even if (big if) the MC can get at least one of my W's feet back into the marriage in any way, we'll eventually have to get around to talking about some of the many ways she has contributed to us being here in addition to my contributions. That's not a message she's remotely prepared to hear at this moment, so, hopefully the MC will have a good sense of how to manage that. I appreciate you dropping by very much. I will be prepared.
lt-- here's hoping. I've been AWOL lately and need to catch up on your sitch. I hope you're finding some peace -- I know how tortuous the in-home thing is.
I should say I don't THINK its a message she's remotely prepared to hear -- I mind read way too much.
JRuss, we were only in MC for two sessions, and I didn't mention any issues with my H. It was all about his issues with me.
I felt his complaints and issues were much more significant than mine, and when I was faced with losing him, mine didn't seem so important.
However, I found that over time, with me consistently working on 180s, he started his own 180s. Just because you don't think she's ready to take responsibility now doesn't mean she won't be willing to change later.
Thanks, Rose. I think I'm just going to take it one session at a time and see how it goes. I have issues and have for a long time that would need to be addressed and discussed for "us" to have any prospect of longterm recovery, but I'm not in a huge hurry for us to get there. I'm grateful we're there at all, frankly -- it took almost two years of trying to get her into the MC's office.
I would think that your W being able to express everything is cathartic and therapeutic in and of itself. Maybe not all her thoughts have been particularly reasonable, so the act of expressing herself could shape her thoughts and feelings, help her see herself better and think more reasonably.
Also, it seems to me, that the particulars aren't that important -- unless there were some egregious problems, like violence, drugs, etc. The willingness to talk about your relationship, and to accept the other's point of view w/o necessarily agreeing ... I mean, isn't that what makes a good marriage? So simply by being willing to talk honestly and openly, your W has taken the very first step to reconciling.
Don't tell her that, though.
FG -- I do think she found it cathartic, and she said she liked the MC. Everything was pretty positive, accepting that we haven't done anything hard for her to handle yet.
I certainly will tell her none of what you wrote, even if I agree with all of it!
How did the second MC session go?
JR, hope all is well brother. Like FG I'm also curious if the second MC session was helpful. Hope it did!
Sorry I've been AWOL, FG and lt -- more on that in a moment.
Second MC went ok, I guess. It's still pretty one-sided and weighted to W's perspective/experience, but W seems bought in and even asked the MC when we could schedule Round 3 (it will be 11/10). That seemed bullish to me, but then I start second guessing, thinking she has in mind a set number of meetings she needs to go to to do her duty and then will pull the plug, and she's just looking to get there. I don't know why I do that to myself, but I do.
So the sessions both have seemed to go well in terms of W opening up, sharing, and catharsis, but there's no change on the ground at all that I can detect in terms of her moving anywhere back towards me or the marriage. And with the meetings spread out every two weeks, I'm not sure how we ever generate any momentum, because we just go back home and into the same dynamic. The MC recommended a book to me (which I've read) after the first session, and she sent me home with a thought she wanted me to try to keep in mind ("How am I making my partner feel?") during the interim period, but there doesn't seem to be much homework or anything that I can see that will move the dial. Maybe that comes later, after the MC is sure W isn't going to pull the plug? Not sure.
One of the things that came up in Round 2 was that W is really pushed away by my palpable sadness. "It just comes off of you and permeates everything", "friends, relatives and the kids can tell you're miserable", etc. As I've relayed, I'm not detached, haven't been able to get there, and I'm sure that this is right and accurate. I'm not an actor, and I come off as heartbroken, because I am. But I'm going to try to figure this out. I need to be sunnier on the outside, and I guess that's why the MC sent me home with that thought to keep in mind.
Which is part of why I've been AWOL. As incredible as the support is here, and it is incredible -- I wish so much I could repay the kindness I've been shown here by you guys and others! -- reading all of the various sitches and all of the horrible pain that's being suffered by so many seemingly great people, it contributes to my sadness. I take it on and carry it alongside all of what I'm dealing with in my own sitch and, as I said, I need to be projecting a more detached, happier image, so I've been staying away. I feel guilty about that. Does this happen to anyone else?
I sure am hoping for good things in all of our sitches, though, and if I'm not around quite as much, I hope people will understand. I will be here as I can handle it, for sure.
JRuss,
I'm not a doctor, but I used to enjoy playing doctor. I'd recommend seeing a doctor about depression; you'll be glad you did.
doodler -- I'm many years into the depression/anxiety journey, and it contributed greatly to the demise of my marriage. My IC (been working with her for about 18 months) says I'm not depressed anymore but am heartbroken/grieving the relationship's end. There is a difference in terms of symptoms that I've noticed. Detachment is what I need for the sitch but also for me. How to get there?!?!?!
JRuss,
Well, darn it all, my quick-fix suggestion didn't work this time. Now you've ruined my life.
Detachment is like a rainbow, it seems like you can never get to the end. Or something like that. That was supposed to be a quotable metaphor, but you messed me up - again. You're so mean!
I don't know how to detach. I was a in a really good situation for detachment. My xW was (is) meaner than h3ll, so it made it easy to detach. If she had been nice, it would've been a lot harder to detach.
Seriously, for me, I didn't focus on detachment, I just did stuff that made me happy and everything else took care of itself. Am I detached? I guess I am, but it wasn't something that I actively tried to do.
That's probably no more help than my "see a doctor" suggestion, but it bumps you back up to the top of the list.
Thanks, doodler. Yeah, my W is not mean overall, just burned out of the marriage and struggling with her life, with what she wants, etc. Same as the rest of us, I guess. This gives me hope, but sometimes hope is the hardest thing, and it definitely makes detaching harder, because you never fully give up your grasp on "the rope".
Just an update. Haven't been around much because, well, I think I'm done trying to "bust" the looming divorce. This is a horrible, scary decision/feeling, but I've tried really, really hard for a long, long time, and we're no closer. We're actually much further away. When I think about all of it since BD, she's never moved back to me in any meaningful way. She wants what she wants, and that is, by definition in her mind, a life without me as anything other than the guy she has to co-parent. She's been willing to wait a very long time to get it, and she's willing to wait longer still, but that's where she's going to get to no matter what. Maybe she ends up realizing some number of years from now that her problems are not so much me as she thinks and much more her own; I won't in any event be around as an option at that point. I'm sure of that, so why it finally occurred to me am I still fighting this with my entire being?
Several days ago, we had (hopefully our last) difficult/painful relationship talk. She was in her usual mode -- it's all me that got us here, she doesn't see any way she could ever go back to feeling about me the way she needs to feel about a partner, she confirmed MC to her is only about learning to communicate with me better as we divorce (for the kids' benefit), she wants to be happy, or at least try to live a life where that could be a possibility. She did say one, very revealing thing: "This -- the four of us: it's not enough for me". It certainly was for me and for our two children, but what can you possibly do with that mindset, especially when you're under the same roof, just cementing with your presence every day the idea that she wants that presence to not be a part of her life? She sees a split as a way to have less parenting responsibility and a more-varied, vibrant life. Well, no $hit -- but, hello, what do the kids need? I stay up night after night stressing about how the children will react to a life that doesn't have both of their parents in it every day, and she fantasizes about precisely that. We just don't see the same world, much less have the sort of connection we'd need to have a marriage that could work.
I have done what I can do with the skills and temperament I was given in this life. I can say that with a straight face, mean it and believe it. As I have always told my daughter when she's struggled: we can only do what we can do; we should always do what we can, but it's not possible to do more. It's such easy and correct advice to give someone, but I've had a really hard time applying it to my situation. If I can apply it going forward, I think I might be able to relax some and not suffer as much as I have. Maybe I don't really have to torture myself over and over with thoughts that I'm not doing enough or doing it right, hypothesizing how things could be if only if . . .
I spent last night looking at area real estate with an eye toward figuring out what I could afford for the three of us post-split when it's my time with the kids. It made me feel better and not worse, which was eye opening. I'm going to continue to go down the planning road, which I've avoided all this time because it felt like I was in some way accepting that things might not "work out", and that seemed very wrong. I realize that is what I should have been doing for a long time, but, again, you do what you can do, with what you bring to the table in terms of your hardwiring, and you don't do more (because you can't).
I hope all of the kind people who've helped me here find peace in their situations. I will still be around and try to lend whatever help or insights I can, but I don't see a whole lot of sitch updates in my future -- I'm pretty sure I'm done trying to stop it from happening, whatever that's going to end up being. My life needs to be better now so I can be a good Dad, and doing this, what I've been doing for so long, I realize it contributes to a hugely painful existence that keeps me from that better parenting goal.
It feels like a fever to me, JR. I have ... I mean, my head has, come to terms with what is inevitable. I know I just have to suffer through what has been set in motion a long time ago, my fate. I know I'll come out the other end. I know I can be in a good place again. Yet, right now, every bone feels the ache.
My W has said nearly the same thing to me: this is not enough for me. More specifically, You are not enough for me. I still believe that a few years down the road, or maybe even many years down the road, she will find herself right back where she started, because the hunger she feels, the emptiness she feels, is within her. Her happiness is found to be within, yet she's looking outward. But her foolishness is not something I can control.
I have talked to people who are in second or third marriages, who now realize and admit that their earlier marriages could have worked just fine. They realize were young(-er) and simply did not know how to be happy in a marriage. That's where my W is, and there is nothing I can do about it. I hope she learns from this divorce, but she may not, and simply keep repeating the pattern, and contribute to the divorce statistics we read about, where 2nd and 3rd marriages have higher divorce rates. I'm seeing now that there is a lifelong pattern in my W's relationships -- romantic, familial and platonic -- and I'm a part of the pattern.
This all s[u]cks for the kids, but that's the mother they have, that's the wife I have, and there is nothing I can do about that. If she chooses to break up the family, there is nothing I can do about that choice. I can only control me.
Hope you check back in the forum once in a while.
JRuss - Is it possible for you to look at the next phase of your life with any excitement? You have been at this a long time. I am amazed at how long LBS can stay at it living in fear, holding on for any positive their WW can give them. Back in my day we had a huge discussion about when is enough, enough. For me I wasn't willing to give away years of my life in the hopes that my XW would come to her senses. Instead, I came to my senses. You have fought the good fight. While it may be sad that you feel like you haven't achieved your goal you have stayed true to your core values and fought for your family and endured some incredible emotional stress. If your WW isn't attracted to someone that would do all that for that long a period of time, than what are you really losing??
It's incredibly tough to go through a family break up. But it can be done. it is done everyday. And you can get back to a life that not only you, but your kids thrive in.
You've done everything you can. No regrets. No more fear. embrace the future. Whatever that looks like.
You can handle this.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
Thanks Gump and mules. I appreciate the support.
Gump -- you and I came here around the same time with remarkably similar situations, what I've always felt were shared core values with respect to fighting for our marriage and our children, and it looks like we've both sort of hit the same impervious wall at roughly the same time. I hope better days are in store for both of us, again on similar (hoping its fast) timing.
mules -- yes, I think looking forward with emotions other than fear and dread is definitely possible. A new house I own by myself, not decorated by my W, that I make into a great place for two kids -- not all bad when I think about it. My W doesn't eat beef or pork, so guess what I've eaten almost none of for 20 years? Some major menu changes coming. Yeah, no -- that's definitely my goal to start accepting what's coming and refocusing my efforts toward creating my and our new existence. Execution of that goal will be difficult, I'm sure. I'm still in-home separated, which is just a really difficult way to live if detachment is your goal, so I anticipate some backsliding. Who knows how it will all shake out, but we will see.
FG -- just another quick word to say I understand how hearing "you're not good enough for me" feels when your spouse is the one saying it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I admire both of you guys....you have fought for your marriages and your families for a long time! It will be difficult to execute your goal but you can do it and you can say you gave it your all with integrity. I would not wish any of what we are going through either, no one really understands unless it happens to them, I never thought I would be the LBS but I am, it [censored] but we can only better ourselves and move forward.
I have a smoker that needs to get fired up if you wanna bring over some pork and beef. HA!!
Ha! I might get one of those green egg thingies, revised finances permitting.
I heard those are great!!
JR-- any sense on what your next step is? Are you still on your W's timeline ... 2 more years of in-house separation?
JR I get it brother. At some point you just seem to hit a wall. You've been fighting the good fight and have been at it much longer than I have. I'm exhausted, so I can only imagine how you are feeling. it seems like taking a more detached view of things can only help. If nothing else it is something different and different things will happen. Getting out of the "routine" your in can only be a good thing.
The planning recently has really helped me find some peace. Knowing that I'll be ready and ok no matter what happens takes a load off. I want to be in a good stable place so that my D has stability in the future. You seem to be moving towards the same and for that I applaud you amigo!
Please do let us keep helping where we can. We all care about you brother and want to know you're good!
FG -- I'm not sure what the timing is at this point. She's made noises like she might want to move to that one-bedroom apartment model, where we split time there solo and parent in the main house solo. I'm not sure I'm interested in that and don't think she can make me participate in that, but I need to make sure I know my rights and what I'd do if that comes up.
lt -- thanks for the well wishes. It feels good when the waves of acceptance wash over me. They don't stick around too long yet, but hopefully they gain traction, because the sorrow, anger, denial/bargaining loop I've been stuck in for almost two years is no good!
Please start a new thread
Oops -- I did but posted in the (old) wrong one. Sorry, Cadet.