Dang -- already need another thread. I was just ranting about people who inject themselves into other people's marriages and get into the ear of a WW, push them along . . . and hoping they all burn in eternal hell fire. Is that bad?
Feeling pretty stuck at the moment.
Anyway, here are links to my earlier threads:
Thread 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692423&page=1Thread 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692430#Post2692430Thread 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2697235#Post2697235
Bringing your post in my old thread over here, Doodler -- many thanks for stopping by!
JRuss,
I tend to agree with you! I've felt the same way myself. On the other hand, before any of this happened to me, if one of my sisters had come to me complaining about their husband, I wouldn't have questioned the validity of their claims. Now, I'd be more aware that their are two sides to the story.
One of my neighbors, an atrocious British fellow (he's a wonderful man), knows me well and saw through the WW's bullsh*t. But, he and his wife had previous marriages and have been through divorce. Many of the people my WW talks to do not know me well. For all they know, I truly am a quiet and introverted narcissistic psychopath serial killer. I mean, it makes a lot of sense; sarcastic humor and gardening are dead giveaways (the dead bodies are in the garden).
I like how you always keep it light, doodler. I think I might have fallen into the trap as well before all of this, but I know I won't ever do it now. The seemingly neutral "validation" the WW gets outside of the marriage is a big part of the fuel that keeps her f-ed up view of LBS and the marriage going, I think. But it's not neutral. In my case, my W has had to go to a woman she hardly knew before this who divorced her husband about two years ago and, apparently, never has had a bad day since. Now, he was alcoholic and wouldn't get help, and she still took years to divorce him; but, with me, who she hardly even knows, she's telling my W that she should act fast, and never, ever "settle" for a life that isn't what she wants.
I'm a little worried about what I might say or do the next time I see this woman.
I feel the same way. My Ww claims that her sisters and even her ic say that the OM is good for her. How messed up is that?
Dang -- already need another thread. I was just ranting about people who inject themselves into other people's marriages and get into the ear of a WW, push them along . . . and hoping they all burn in eternal hell fire. Is that bad?
Sounds highly rational to me JR! But I may be slightly biased!
Unfortunately, we can't control who our WWs take advice from. We can, however, control our actions and ourselves and hammer home we're not the monsters our WWs friends are making us out to be. My WW also is getting advice from college friends (who have never met me) to be with OM (whom they all went to college with) and bail on me bc I'm so awful. Taking a "NatGeo" perspective it's all quite absurd and funny (like monkeys throwing poo), but it [censored] when you're stuck in the weeds of this stuff day after day.
Regardless, I wholeheartedly condone the quoted statement from you above! Hang in there brother!
It seems like so many divorced women turn into hedonists, and encourage others to be on the idiot wagon with them. Disgusting human beings. Hedonism is for weak, childish people.
My W and this "friend" I'm thinking of in particular aren't hedonists. But the "friend" sure thinks she knows what's best for my W. I've known her for 6-7 years but spoken to her only a handful of times, as had my wife before BD. She knows absolutely nothing about me. To my W's way of thinking, this woman handled her divorce and continues to handle her co-parenting perfectly. My W looks at her and sees it as proof positive that everything will be fine for our children (because this woman says her children are fine -- my W has no idea if this is true), and that she and I will be the friendliest, bestie co-parents ever.
This friend went to multiple marriage counselors and took years to divorce her H, and she now tells my W that was a mistake, that she wishes she'd D sooner. My wife is all ears, I think.
It makes me lose respect for my W, frankly. She was always such an independent thinker, not this fawning novice getting infallible wisdom from this Rasputin-like harpy.
Unless, by "hedonism" you mean "I want to do what I want to do, and everyone else will be fine". In that case, yes -- hedonists.
JRuss, it seems to me you're practicing a bit of mind reading, trying to imagine what effect your W's echo chamber friends and IC have on your W.
Why not just confront her? Tell her, "Hey, come on, let's be real. You're being selfish. Let's make sure we've done all we can to save this marriage before we give up. Let's talk about what we can try."
Come on over to my thread and see how well that approach goes...
Yeah, tried saying variants of that, many times. We're told here to stop doing what doesn't work, so I stopped.
Now I need to stop with the mindreading.
Yeah but were you as direct as I was?
And did she fly off the handle like my W did?
I think I completely screwed up my DB...
Yeah but were you as direct as I was?
And did she fly off the handle like my W did?
I think I completely screwed up my DB...
I'm finding it's extremely difficult to screw up DB with a single interaction w/ the W. Don't beat yourself up FG, I'd actually let her stew on it for a bit.
JR, sorry to hijack!
I think where I and several other LBS struggle is that what you're advocating in a lot of ways runs head on -- and even contradicts -- DB.
That's a pretty strong statement. What am I advocating contradicts DB? About the only thing I can think of at the moment is my VP on being BFF's with a wayward wife. The DB coaches, from what I've read, do not divide the wayward wives from the WAW. They place them in the same group, so to speak, and they advise the LBS to be the W's friend as a way of working toward reconciliation. That doesn't work with a
wayward wife, b/c with a WW the issue is about respect. I have said so, many times. It's funny to me that some people can advocate exposing the WW to the entire world and nobody accuses them of contradicting DB. But let me have a different opinion on the subject of
friendship.....and I am accused of running head on?
Some of us were told by WAW/WW we were poor listeners. What's the 180 for that? Teach ourselves to listen, then actually listen when she wants to talk about something, validate, etc. But then we hear that we're just being Mr. Nice Guy baking and serving all the cake she can eat. I personally was told I "didn't support" my W. I'm still not sure what the $%^& she was talking about, but moving away, remaining aloof -- all of that flies in the face of anything that might be termed a 180 in DB. I was also told I didn't do enough around the house and domestically -- but I'm Mr. Nice Guy if I vacuum or straighten or pick up groceries or decide to cook one night.
Wait a minute. First, you say that what I advocate contradicts DB, and then you follow with the that paragraph? Other than the first sentence, one could think you are implying that I was the person telling you those things. So, let me address what you've said.....not b/c I said those things, but b/c I think some newcomers do struggle when they are grasping a lot of information......and it stands to reason that it could cause some confusion.
First of all, consider the source of what you are being told. Next, realize that it's not always about appeasing your W, especially if she is wayward. By the time the H of a WW finds his way to the board, the real issue is his W's complete lack of respect for him. The way back for the MR is for him to be the man that commands respect (especially from his W and kids). For a wayward, a H trying to fix the M by applying 180's to all her complaints isn't usually successful. B/c the wayward W is angry and resents her H. Even if she doesn't openly disrespect him, she feels it. Over time, she begins to do small acts of rebellion, and finally she drops the bomb. Where the WAW or MLC may base their feelings on fear or survival, the wayward is anger. Some may contain it better than others.....but it's there in her. If you don't believe it, just try telling her
no, or stop acting according to what she dictates and see what happens. Everything is about her!
Don't misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not telling you that you should not improve yourself (as some people tend to think that all 180's are about improving), but rather, I am telling you that it won't fix what's wrong with a
wayward. At the end of the day, he has done everything trying to please her......but she still doesn't respect him. All she can tell him is that she doesn't have the "in love" feelings for him. However, once a WW begins to respect him; then the feelings will follow; his new improvements will be appreciated; and the MR can be successful.
Back to what you said about listening to your W, if she's complained for 20 years that you never listen to her.....then get a clue and achieve some listening skills, but do it to improve yourself.....not just trying to win her approval, hoping she won't leave you. Does that make sense? It would take hours for me to explain all of this in detail, so realize I am hitting highlights.
I doubt you need to 180 everything in your life. (I have actually seen one man who thought that was what he was being told). You may not even 180 every complaint from your W (especially is she's wayward). However, let's take the example you gave. If your W is talking to you......why would you
not listen? The only times I remember advising H's not to listen and validate would be if the WW is speaking/acting disrespectfully to him (again, it is a matter of respect). I have suggested that some H's limit/cut their availability (depending on the individual stitch). I have seen some terrible female bullies. I have seen women totally manipulate the H through their moods.
I do get that you are sensitive to the reference of the nice guy. When
I use that term, I am referring to the description of nice guy syndrome. If you have read the book on that subject, then you should be able to separate the actions of a man who has
nice guy syndrome from the man who doesn't. At least, I think you could.....but if that is how you have always operated....maybe it is more difficult to see it in yourself. Sometimes it takes a lot of honest self evaluation to admit to our true motivation behind our actions. You should know if you are passive-aggressive and if you have allowed your W to emotionally control the MR. You should know if you have done everything to cushion her responsibilities at home and with the children, just in order for you to tolerate living with her. You should know when you mow the grass or vacuum the floor if it is b/c you don't want her in a bad mood or if it's b/c of personal pride and doing your share of the home chores. It's about the true reason behind your actions. I just think a lot of nice guys make excuses for why they really do what they do. If you are taking care of all the housework, yard work, cooking, & laundry, as well as taking care of the children's needs.....b/c she doesn't like doing it (or finds excuses for not doing it) and you know she's going to get all pi$$y about it if you say something (or if you just don't do the work and let it pile up)......and so you do it
all (at least most of it), rather than deal with her temperament......then I suspect some nice guy syndrome. And, that is why I wonder if you have researched the subject.
So, it is true. You can't nice back a wayward wife. Does that mean you should act like a jerk? No, not a jerk.....just a man who won't accept disrespect from his WW.
I needed to hear this. Thanks Sandi2.
Thanks Sandi,
So much wisdom there, I also needed to hear
JRuss.
Yes do hate the poison of the injectors.
You have to ignore them though chap. Nothing more to add spin that other than to say, they are plankton.
Surfer.
Yeah but were you as direct as I was?
And did she fly off the handle like my W did?
I think I completely screwed up my DB...
Oh, yeah. Probably much more so. Letters, tears, rational arguments, pleading . . . I did it all. I'd still be doing it had I not stumbled upon this place. And, truthfully, I spend lots of times still doing all of those things in my head. WHich keeps me from detaching.
Honestly, while there's a tendency to catastrophize each DB slip up, there's nothing we do, right now (positive or negative), that really matters all that much. They are where they are, and it's a million miles from us. It's cumulative if its anything, and probably a years-long effort of mostly succeeding at DB. And that's if we have the energy to fight that fight, which I'm coming to doubt for myself personally. I've already been fighting for 2+ years, made lots of positive changes, and I'm further away from my W, right now, than I was when I was still clueless.
I was really struck by your posts in your thread about the unilateral nature of what our Ws are doing. There are in their minds only two ways: stay married and suffer a martyr's life, or D and have hope of something better. But there's a third way. The way I'm pretty sure we promised we'd exhaust fully before blowing up our family. A collaborative effort aimed at resetting a relationship I've fully admitted needing resetting. I've had exactly 0.0 seconds of marriage counseling with this woman. I can't come to grips with the idea I'm going to lose half of my children's remaining childhood, and we won't ever have set foot in a single marriage counselor's office. I realize we're not in a place, right now, where MC would be anything other than a failure that my W would use as validation that there isn't a third way. But there was certainly a time, long before I had any clue she was so unhappy, where we could have done something. It's this kind of stuff that tears at my brain.
sandi2 -- please don't take what I wrote as a criticism of you or our posts or your advice. You have helped so many people. I was simply journaling on how hard I find all of this and the tensions I see between your at-times tough(er) love approach where a spouse is wayward and the 180-based, kinder, reestablishing friendship-based approach I feel is the DB way. Reestablishing respect and reestablishing friendship can overlap, I guess -- I'm just not sure I always see how.
I have no real idea if my wife is WAS or WW or some sort of outlandish, never before seen hybrid. Or whether she's just a wonderful woman going through a rough patch.
I have no real idea whether I have Mr. Nice Guy Syndrome, whether I'm a card-carrying codependent or whether I'm just a really confused, blind-sided guy trying to keep a family together.
So the confusion is deep and very real. It's not an act. I really am not sure about what is going on at any given moment, which leads to a lot of over analyzing on my part and a really scatter-shot approach to changing the dynamic in my R.
There is a lot in your post, especially at the bottom, that I want to dive into. The parts about why I do what I do. I think these will be really good for me to drill into, and I'm going to do that. Thanks so much for taking the time to stop by and offer your help!
I was really struck by your posts in your thread about the unilateral nature of what our Ws are doing. There are in their minds only two ways: stay married and suffer a martyr's life, or D and have hope of something better. But there's a third way. The way I'm pretty sure we promised we'd exhaust fully before blowing up our family. A collaborative effort aimed at resetting a relationship I've fully admitted needing resetting. I've had exactly 0.0 seconds of marriage counseling with this woman. I can't come to grips with the idea I'm going to lose half of my children's remaining childhood, and we won't ever have set foot in a single marriage counselor's office. I realize we're not in a place, right now, where MC would be anything other than a failure that my W would use as validation that there isn't a third way. But there was certainly a time, long before I had any clue she was so unhappy, where we could have done something. It's this kind of stuff that tears at my brain.
Me as well JR. I've stepped through this in my head so many times and it's driven me crazy. My W went so far as to say that maybe if we'd done MC 5 years ago it would have made a difference, but now there's no chance. It blows my mind that she's unwilling to do anything to try to save this.
It goes back to them having the view that they've done all they could. But they don't realize that in reality they've done nothing over the years to try to proactively fix things. As we get more educated in this stuff, we have learned this is very fixable and how to fix it, but they are at a place where there's no way they'd listen to us. It's more than frustrating...
So lost in the fog that they can't see it now. At some point it sounds like the fog clears, but it seems highly variable. I'm like you, and wondering if I can grind through this into perpetuity. I guess no one said this would be fun. Hang in there JR!
Reestablishing respect and reestablishing friendship can overlap, I guess -- I'm just not sure I always see how.
JRuss - perhaps split those two. Work first on becoming a person that you, your W, and your children can respect. I like to feel that even in the darkest hours that my W still respected me - no clue if that was true or not. I'm positive that when she walked out our door that she did though. Friendship may have to wait until you are both ready for it.
AndrewP -- that's the goal. I feel like I need to model kind, compassionate actions toward my W so the kids see what that looks like, but I think I overdo it and stray close to the doormat at times when I do. Need to figure out the right balance.
JRuss - perhaps split those two. Work first on becoming a person that you, your W, and your children can respect. I like to feel that even in the darkest hours that my W still respected me - no clue if that was true or not. I'm positive that when she walked out our door that she did though. Friendship may have to wait until you are both ready for it.
Agree with this ^^^^^^.
Basically, treat her as someone you know but you don't really want to spend THAT much time around. You can be polite or friendly, but keep away from kissing butt. Respect has to come before all else. Why? If she can't respect you enough to talk to you decently, why would she respect you enough to even question all of the things she's done? It's a big first step to be honest. Once you start gaining respect back, they start to question things and aren't so sure about what they wanted anymore.....
Here's an idea JRuss. Just 'man up'.
Get your game on chap!
Surfer
JR
All WS's are the equivalent of the person you would AVOID if you met them in a bar etc. AVOID them!
Stay away as much as possible and find that happy part of you. The part you love and others love. Do you want to be this 'oh life is so awful' [without her] kind of guy forever. NO?.
Time to GAL.
Man up. She has t!ts and a$$ I get that. She is also someone you LOVE too. That's all GOOD.
Drop her though. Seriously.
She will follow you or not. Either way, you WILL be happy.
I PROMISE.
If she does not follow you, if you do not rekindle etc, do what? Be happy either way. Then it's win, win.
Sufer
BTW - I don't mean drop her as 'her' I mean drop her 'connection'.
Still LOVE her but just cut those ties. She might not follow you but got to focus on you and YOUR happiness.
Surfer.
Surfer -- the flesh is willing, but, at times, the spirit gets weak. Thanks for the needed a$$ kicking.
Feeling a bit better this AM. W is very busy at work and overwhelmed with it all. It's at times like this that I see it isn't all about me -- or even maybe mostly about me -- but is instead about a severe displeasure with the life she has to live right now. I can't really do anything about it other than be present if she wants to vent and resist the urge to try to fix things. She's scapegoated me for a lot that's wrong with her life that I have nothing to do with. She'll keep doing that, and we'll be divorced eventually, or she'll have an awakening, and we won't. Just going to do what I can to be the best I can be.
I'm heading out of town Friday for a trip to Colorado with very old friends. Just guys. I'm really looking forward to it. It will also give me an opportunity to go a lot darker than I ever can when I'm at home living in the same house with my W. Any thoughts on how dark I should go? Maybe no texts or calls to W's cellphone? I do want to keep in touch with the kids while I'm gone but could do that entirely through my Ds cellphone if I wanted to. Could use some advice if anyone cares to weigh in.
I would stay dim and mysterious...she will wonder what you are up 2.....contact your D's cell phone if you want to stay in touch with the kids!
I would stay dim and mysterious...she will wonder what you are up 2.....contact your D's cell phone if you want to stay in touch with the kids!
Agree, go completely NC with W and user your Ds cellphone to contact the kids.
Enjoy the trip JR!
My advice: do whatever the F*CK you want. Call her every minute. Text her hearts and smilies. Grab her ankles and beg. Or don't call her. It don't make no difference JR.
FG -- really glad to see you back just to know you're ok. Lots of friends here worried about you after your last post in your thread, Man. I hope you're feeling better. Focus on those kids if all is feeling like its failing.
What I want is to try a little dimmer/darker 5 days. I don't have any expectations that it will change my marital dynamic, but I think it will be good for me and my outlook.
What would make you feel good, JR? Whatever that is, do it. I guess that's the hard thing ... it's hard to know what'll make us feel good.
I'm really ready to let my narcissist W go. Focusing on my kids is what's making me feel like [censored]. They don't deserve this.
JRuss -- what do you think about this forum and privacy? Are you concerned at all so many private information and thoughts are shared here? One careless error and your spouse reads everything. One subpoena and everything you wrote is heard by the court. One serious hacker and all your messages associate emails and IP address are exposed.
I'm not too worried about spouse reading everything (I post from work, and it's my server) or a subpoena (would have to be served on DB, and I just don't see that, especially if she never has reason to know about it). The hacker could be a risk, and I truthfully hadn't considered it.
This site is definitely part of the public domain. I've noticed that google will spider the site within minutes of a post just search:
myhandle site:divorcebusting.com
and you'll see what any amateur sleuth will find. I think most of us are fairly careful and it would require a subpoena to get the login information I'm sure to "prove" who is posting. With that said I don't worry about it too much. There have been in fact a few times I've wondered if W has been here and a number of things I've written that I wished she would read.
As far as the trip goes I can tell you my own story. I had a week long business trip at the end of May. I knew the A was in full bloom and my "Plan A" was to follow the DB philosophy and go dark and have her "miss me". On the other hand I was terrified that she'd take my absence as an opportunity to put the A on full force. I was also very worried that she'd use my absence to strip the house and move out. What I ended up doing was acting like normal. I'd send her a good morning message, a good night message, small updates through the day etc. I was on Messenger with her one night and actually got a couple of responses before she cut off. No responses to my other messages at all.
When I got back home W was almost literally shaking with stress - there were a couple of other things happening at the time as well that could have added to it. She said that she had had a horrible week - I asked no details. Did I "ruin her fun"? Don't know. Did I set back my DBing? Don't know. "I" felt good that I had behaved like a responsible husband. Did it make any difference? Probably not.
I don't think this site is very secure (php forum, no SSL??) Just sayin', wish they'd bone it up.
JR,
"Going dim" and trying to be mysterious ... all seem silly to me. I like AP's point: what diff did things make? Probably none.
Call your kids every night because you love them.
Your W... what would you do w/ a housemate? Call her every night?
Actually -- forget what I said. Call MWD's people. Ask them what they would do. They probably know better than any of us in the forum.
What would make you feel good, JR? Whatever that is, do it. I guess that's the hard thing ... it's hard to know what'll make us feel good.
Frankly, I wholeheartedly disagree with this.
What you DO should be based on your long term goals. Not based on what you feel.
Do I want to eat chocolate cake every day for dinner? Hell yes.
Does it feel good? Hell yes.
Will it get me closer to my long term goal of losing 25 pounds? Of course not.
I feel like the key point is that the wayward needs to realize you are not a permanent plan B, and hopefully feel your unavailability/loss.
Going dark/dim, not pursuing, detaching from the emotional rollercoaster, GAL, etc - all of those are tools that accomplish the above while also helping you get yourself sorted out.
WW will have zero chance to miss you if you're always there helping out or always in contact. WW is in a bad place emotionally and heaping the bulk of the blame for their woes on the LBS - while you stay present and in contact WW has no chance to realize that their life is still messed up even when you're not there, and maybe you're not really the cause of everything bad.
I would recommend staying polite/friendly (but end things first) if she contacts you, otherwise just stay in touch with your kids. Let your wife see the strong independent you, who will be fine without her.
FG -- going dim would be for me primarily. I'm way, way too attached, still, mainly because I share a house and the MBR, act like we're happy in front of the kids, still on occasion (though they are dwindling) sleep with my wife and, generally, play like I'm married except for this f-ed up elephant always standing there in the corner.
I need to see if I can do it. I focus on her issues a lot, but where do MY issues start? Can I even go dim at this point, or will I invent some stupid excuse to contact her? I want to see. She's told me she needs space that I can't usually give her because, unless I'm GALing, I'm at home trying to soak up as much kid time as I can before she blows it all up. Well, this is almost 2,000 miles of space for 4-5 days, and she'll have it if I can sack up and not be a girly man trying to call her and text her.
I guess it might help our overall sitch, but I'm not optimistic at this point. In fact, I think I'm in just about the same place you are in terms of long-term outlook, i.e., there isn't one at present. Detachment is a prerequisite to personal happiness, though, so baby steps.
So, anyway, I violated DB principles (as I understand them) this AM before work by asking my W how a difficult case she's working on at work has been going. She's been working long hours and is really stressed out, feels like she's neglecting the kids -- just really worked up and upset. My question slipped out before I thought about it, but it also occurs to me that a friendly roommate might very well have asked the same question.
Anyway, she went off on a 10-minute, profane (certainly by her standards) tirade about how she's not respected at work, how she ruined her career by taking a back seat to mine while our kids were little, how she's failed at her work, her marriage, how she's "stuck". You get the picture. She was going so hard I didn't even have an opportunity to validate before she was onto the next portion of the tirade.
She eventually calmed down and helped get the kids ready for school as she typically does. At one point when they weren't listening, she told me something like "Listen -- just quit caring about me. I don't want you to care about me. I wouldn't if I were you." I told her I heard her and she has every right to feel that way, but that I get to be in charge of who I care about. I said it with a smile on my face but was sort of recoiling from what felt like her desire to control even how I think and feel.
Later, she said she'd like to "decompensate completely and just curl up for for weeks", but she can't because she's so busy. I said she really needed to look after herself and that I hoped her IC was looking after her, as a person, and not just acting as her divorce coach (I know -- really bad and not DB), because that sounds a lot like depression, and we need to prioritize helping her. She mumbled something again about being too busy for it.
That's where we left things, but right before she left for work, she gave me a very nice hug and said "thanks for letting me vent".
I think maybe I'm getting where I can understand what people here are talking about when they mention the rollercoaster. When you're on it, it's wild and crazy and almost impossible to stay the DB course, and you end up, afterwards, alone, dizzy and confused.
I need to see if I can do it. I focus on her issues a lot, but where do MY issues start? Can I even go dim at this point, or will I invent some stupid excuse to contact her? I want to see. She's told me she needs space that I can't usually give her because, unless I'm GALing, I'm at home trying to soak up as much kid time as I can before she blows it all up. Well, this is almost 2,000 miles of space for 4-5 days, and she'll have it if I can sack up and not be a girly man trying to call her and text her.
FWIW, I think this sounds like a man being painfully honest with himself. I don't think you are a girly-man.....(lol) I think you are a good man who honestly was doing what you thought a H in your situation
should do. I believe you are ready to DB, now,
b/c you are discovering what you always thought about husband-wife relationships.....may not be how it works for your MR. A lot of H's and fathers are in the boat with you. I suspect it is somewhat scary, for some, to consider getting outside their comfort area.
I can't remember if I told you. I married a man who had super NGS. I mean, they just didn't come any sweeter than my guy! However, along with his sweetness, came passivity, conflict avoidance (and the whole list). What I thought was sweet about him, before we married......became the very thing I hated about him. And, I have seen the same thing played out over & over again in the stories here. What we think we see in our future spouse....may not be the complete picture. Someone once said that in most M's, there is one spouse who does most of the giving.....and the other spouse who does most of the taking. I think that becomes the case in the stories we read on these forums. It's not 50/50, like some us were led to believe. It "should" be, but when it's not, you have the giver and the taker. I will readily admit I was the spouse that did most of the taking......b/c after all, I was married to a man who had NGS. Well, guess what? I have learned,
first hand, that men with NGS
can change,
and it doesn't stop them from being a good man.
I'm at home trying to soak up as much kid time as I can before she blows it all up.
JR, I completely understand this. I find myself doing the same thing w/ my D bc of my fear around how I'll lose time w/ her in the future. I'm working to find a balance b/t GAL and that fear though, bc the other folks are right, we need to be less available to our Ws.
I bet you'll have a blast on your trip brother. Sounds like a great time and you should enjoy it and keep the thoughts about this situation to a minimum. Come back fully recharged and refreshed!
Thanks sandi2 and lt0402.
Sandi -- NGS is spot on. Guilty as charged, which is sobering. Do you remember anything that stood out in particular that your H did or said when got his epiphany?
lt -- it's tough, for sure. Lately I've been trying to remind myself that this is how you should always approach your relationship with your kids and loved ones: i.e., with knowledge that it could end, tragically or for mundane reasons, so seize the day all day, every day.
Dude, 2k mi from CO means you live waaay downeast Maine, in AK or in the Panama Canal Zone. If I had to choose, I'd live in Panama, but that's just me.
Sounds like some breakthrough stuff this morning. Was happy to hear that your wife is emotionally all contorted and suffering inside. That's good, really good. I mean, if she was pulling all this sh!t on you day after day, year after year, and was all calm and rational, then you'd be f[censored]ed. She's volatile, confused, and f[censored]ed up -- that's good, that means she far from comfortable where she is.
I think what you did was good. Gives me a lot of hope for your situation -- but forget I said that, don't let it go to your head.
Anyway, your CO trip -- since you're talking about doing it just for yourself, I say go completely dark. Give her nothing. Give everything to the kids.
Two good movies that come to mind:
After Dark My Sweet -- Probably Jason Patric's best and only good movie.
Zero Dark Thirty -- Love the bad ass CIA field agent.
Do you remember anything that stood out in particular that your H did or said when got his epiphany?
Somehow I knew that question was coming.
Actually, I have been asked similar questions by several others. My answer is that he was not the one who came to the DB board. I was. I was told, quite often, that the spouse who comes to the board....is the spouse who gets the information.
As for my H,
if he read any information...it was when I was away from the house. He would not even agree to attend MC, when I asked.....which was frustrating, considering I was the one trying to do what my DB advisors said. I know it may sound odd to
normal people who have conversation with their spouses.....but he isn't going to tell
me, b/c he doesn't discuss his feelings, or much of anything else with me. Never has! I gave up trying to get him to have conversations with me. So, I will just have to give you my thoughts......(just what you wanted, right?)
I did see a side of him that I had never seen in all the years we had been together. The first confrontation, he was......sweet, kind, and considerate. The next confrontation.....he wasn't! Sometime thereafter, I was told that he finally admitted that he could not "make" me love him. If he
had an epiphany, it was seeing that his NG ways, guilting, or some other emotional pressure wasn't working in this situation. I think he basically "gave up". He did discover my DB threads, so maybe he read more than just my posts....and learned about dropping the rope.
Anyway, he has changed from being the man with NGS. He doesn't let anyone run over him, and especially me. He calls me out on anything that hints of disrespect. I doubt he would tolerate any b.s. from me.....(I haven't tried it). He is more assertive. He makes decisions from smaller things to larger (even overriding mine......which I may not always like/agree, but I respect it and follow his lead).
He still is a nice, kind, and even sweet person......when he is being treated as such, too. However, I don't see the symptoms of the NGS that I once saw. I have much more respect for him, than I ever had in the past. IDK, maybe he learned from his painful experience.
Thank you, Sandi. I really appreciate the insight. Holding onto the rope is no good.
Gump -- I may have overstated the mileage somewhat. Google says it's actually only about 1300 miles. Just trying to add to my air of secrecy and intrigue.
JR, how was the trip? Hope it was an excellent opportunity to unwind!
The trip was good. It was great hanging out with friends, staying busy, and not thinking about my situation as much as I do when I'm back here in the "real" world.
I went pretty dark. Didn't initiate any calls or texts. I had a pretty significant fall hiking, though, and got fairly banged up. I was actually really fortunate that I wasn't killed or seriously injured (was bouncing down hill, out of control, banging off rocks). Somehow just ended up with a bunch of bruises and scrapes. Anyway, I told my D when we talked that night, and she told my W, and W thought I was more seriously hurt than I was and called me. I thought about not answering when I saw her name on my phone, but I did pick it up. She seemed concerned, which was nice, I guess.
Same situation here as always when I got home. She's making more of an effort not to backslide and show me affection. Cordial roommates, another four days closer to divorce.
Funny JR, to read about your W calling. What little concern I get from my W, I wonder if it's genuine or just out of guilt and/or the need to be perceived as a decent person by others. I think my W would be relieved if I perished in some outdoor misadventure.
I think about your situation a lot, and I flip flop on how I feel about it. How *I* would feel about it if I were in your shoes. I'll say one thing though -- as much as you're tormented by your W's behavior, I bet she's created a personal purgatory for herself. Maybe an obvious point, but easy to forget, I think, that she's feeling really troubled and confused. Not exactly actionable intel there, but reminding yourself of that might help you shift to a different emotional footing on your situation.
The longer my in-house separation goes on, the more distant I feel about her. The heart strings are still there, though.
Maybe this is just the human condition: the euphoria of marriage lasts 1-3 years, then the rest depends on the character of the two people in the marriage. Some people are able to make happiness, make fulfillment, make love; while others just don't have that in them, for whatever reasons, and endure for 5, 10, 15 or 20 years, then reach the end of their rope. They get a divorce, and repeat the cycle until they're too old.
I think you're right about the human condition, at least as it applies to marriage. There are those who wake up everyday and choose to love their partner (by overlooking any number of "flaws" that prove to be dealbreakers for the less loyal) and those who look at and focus on what their partner isn't. If you have two of the former, you get the sort of marriage that others wish they had; if you get even one of the latter, it's just a matter of how, not if, it ends.
... and those who look at and focus on what their partner isn't.
And why do they focus on what's missing from their partners? I think that's an important question to ask.
The answer is that there are some people who are fundamentally unhappy and/or feel empty inside in some significant way. Lacking that ability within themselves, they look outside themselves to be happy. If they're not feeling happy inside, they blame the external world for their unhappiness -- in our cases, the imperfect husbands who leave their goddam dirty socks around everywhere.
The tragedy is that once the hapless hubbies are replaced, there is a brief honeymoon period, then the cycle repeats itself. Meanwhile, young kids bear the brunt of this human condition.
Your second paragraph could have been written by my IC. That's been her point all along: that nothing I do to myself, for myself, for her, for the marriage, 180s, GAL -- none of it matters if my W is going to continue to run from what she's running from. She'll always of necessity scapegoat and find wanting her important relationships for not being transformative and the cure for her unhappiness.
That's why I was so excited to hear she was going to see her own MC. I thought, hmmm -- maybe she starts doing the work I started doing 2+ years ago, and we see what happens. Then I find out that what she's really done is hire a divorce coach. So just more artificial validation that pushes off into the distance the real work she needs to do to be a happy person.
Just to push back a little ... maybe your W's IC isn't as bad as you fear?
Have you asked your own IC whether your W's IC is any good, whether she's just a divorce coach?
p.s. I'd be so ecstatic if my WW got into therapy w/ anyone, a quack or not ... Count your blessings, JR (somewhat sarcastically).
On that note, my IC thinks it's healthy for me to acknowledge to my kids what I'm going through. If they bring up certain worries or fears (about home or Mommy & Daddy), it's OK to say I worry about some of those things too, without going into details. I think the idea is to be real and to not blindside them with reality when things become worse. I have been thinking about this, but haven't had a chance to put it into practice.
Thanks, Gump. I know you struggle in your situation, and I appreciate you checking in on mine.
There's unfortunately no basis for being ecstatic or even mildly hopeful over there, though. Every day she just strengthens her resolve to blow our family up. It's like she's gaining momentum and not looking back.
I just found out she's been calling my best friend a lot -- over a multi-year peroid -- to help her "just to stay in the marriage". He's been a "gift" she says because he's apparently helped her enough that she wasn't forced to leave long ago,helped her figure out ways to deal with me, etc. I haven't talked to him yet but plan to today. Not sure what to say to someone who has kept this sort of secret relationship with my wife hidden for so long, didn't warn me that my marriage was in trouble, knows things about me and my marriage I wouldn't ever share with him . . . it makes my skin crawl.
JRuss, that is potentially very upsetting info. But I really think it depends on the particulars. I could imagine something like that taking place w/ your wife and best friend having the best intentions. So I encourage you to get more info before going too far in one direction.
Are you suspicious that there may have been some romantic connection between the two?
Do you feel like details of the marriage that were irrelevant and private were shared?
Were there issues that your wife really could not talk to you about first, before she went to your best friend?
I'm somewhat sympathetic to this situation because I'm guilty of having talked to close friends & family about my situation. Some of it was just me needing to share my frustrations, and ... well, in my case, my W simply refuses to discuss anything w/ me so it's not like I can talk to her about it first.
Yeah, I'm trying to keep calm and not go off the minute I get on the phone with him. I've actually talked to him a lot about things as my marriage has slowly imploded, though, so for him not to mention in any of those many conversations that he's been in repeated contact with my wife about the very same topic is upsetting. He has his own very strained marriage. The mind reels with possibilities, so many of them horrible.
The more I think on it, the less possibility I see of their being a completely benign explanation or story.
Oh man, JR...
I really do hope that it turns out to be all well-intended, maybe just a misguided effort by them to try to do something positive. You've got enough trouble in your marriage as-is, you don't need this extra dimension -- if it is really something bad -- to be added to your troubles.
Keep your cool, JR, and keep us posted.
JR, I agree that's not an ideal thing to find out. Try to approach it unemotionally (easier said than done) and see what you find out. Better to try to sort through it first before jumping to any sort of conclusion.
Curious how she brought it up to you? If there was something nefarious going on, it seems odd she'd offer the information directly to you. Who knows though. My W has "hidden" things in plain sight, so it's difficult to know what they're thinking when they do stuff.
Regardless, keep your cool, get some intel, and go from there. Here for you brother, sorry about the latest twist.
Hey JRuss. I've only cliches to offer: hope you had a good weekend with the kids, and hope you're staying strong. The currents are deep and strong and I feel like I'm drifting about.
OK, now we have to send out a search party for you? 1500mi radius from DEN, sort of like Malaysia Air 370?
Rough few days.
Friend copped to having screwed up and not told me, but he says W mainly talked to him about his marriage, not mine. Said she vaguely mentioned "ups and downs" with me but didn't divulge details, didn't ask for advice, and he didn't really even think that much about it. Apologized profusely and sent me (I think) 6 months' worth of cellphone usage showing the times the talked. It was about once a month for 20 minutes or less. He said he thought of it as her being nice supporting him in connection with his troubled marriage and didn't think much of it -- like me, she's been friends with him and his wife for 20+ years.
I'm not sure what I think. If he's being truthful, and I lean toward thinking he is, then W for some reason oversold the nature of their talks. Maybe she wanted to hurt me by driving a wedge between me and my friend?
In the course of talking to her about it over the weekend, I broke DB, and we got into R talk. This never goes well, I know I shouldn't do it, but every 2-3 months or so, I react instead of responding (usually after days of W slowly escalating tension and spoiling for a fight), and off we go.
Net result is she's been in the guest room the last four nights, and I don't expect her back in MBR anytime soon. Or ever, really. Which is a blow. The upside is I'm actually sleeping better without her in there. I had gotten to a point where I'd wake up every night, whatever time it happened, and not ever be able to go back to sleep. I'd sit there listening to her breathe, think about how far over to the edge she's sleeping, etc., wishing things weren't so out of whack, etc. Trying to find a positive in it.
My anniversary is Sunday. She hasn't mentioned it, and I don't expect it to be marked in anyway. Another blow. We used to take a trip every year out of town to someplace cool, just the two of us; as late as last year, even. THis year, I doubt we do dinner or even verbally acknowledge it. What can you do except keep trying to forge ahead?
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on desire. Is it actually possible for this to be rekindled in someone who had it -- at least some number of years in the past? Or is all of this already fatal? My W seems to have determined that there are only two possible paths: (1) stay married and be unattracted and unhappy, or (2) divorce and possibly be happy. I've tried as many ways as I know how -- BD and otherwise -- to show her or suggest to her that there is a third path (work on the R, try to rebuild something worth having that could be the source of mutual happiness), but I have to admit I'm not sure I'd want to stay in or even work on a marriage where I honestly didn't feel attracted to my spouse.
The hope has to be that the loss of attraction is driven by some as-of-yet unresolved hurt, anger, loss of respect, doesn't it? Because those in theory could be healed, forgiven, etc. But if it's just biological or a matter of "chemistry", how would it ever come back?
OK so we've located you at the bottom of the sea: the Mariana Trench.
Sorry man. Sounds really rough. I mean, for me, just a slight warming or slight cooling by my W and I'm all messed up for days. So the kind of confrontation you had ... I'd be psychologically six feet or twenty fathoms under. Seems like you're holding up better.
You mentioned some upsides -- let me restate them slightly differently. Maybe the big shakeup in the status quo is necessary. And in particular, maybe her physically being separated from you while sleeping, is in fact something that could help her feel more viscerally what the divorce would feel like. Maybe this is some of the loss your W has to feel before she realizes what she's throwing away. I don't know.
As for your friend, it sounds to me like there was mainly some poor judgment. Who knows, maybe he got a kick connecting w/ your W that way, even if on the surface all was above board. I guess I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt. Shitty thing to do, though, what he did. I mean, if it really was all about *his* marriage, why does it have to be all surreptitious?
Anyway. Unless there is something truly substantial there, I would say let it go. Heck even if he is an OM -- we're supposed to let it go, right? Whatever dysfunctional, distasteful thing our WW engages in, that's her circus, those are her monkeys.
Thanks for the response, ForGump. On your question re if it was really all about his marriage, why does it have to be surreptitious, I asked him about that. He said he definitely WAS trying to be surreptitious about things with respect to his W, because they're in even more dire shape than our marriage is, he views everything these days in terms of Hail Marys, and he didn't want his W to know he was getting help from our mutual friend. So there's some "infidelity" type stuff going on there, at least in that direction. With respect to the other direction and my W, he falls back on the point that he didn't have any idea she was really doing anything to reach out or get help or advice w/r/t our marriage, and that's why he didn't tell me. I still think it's maybe not entirely kosher. Keeping my eyes open on this but, honestly, I'm so F-ing tired at this point that I just don't find myself even wanting to run it all down. He knows how I feel (I made very certain of that), and the contact will stop (at least on this level), or it won't, I'll eventually find out it didn't stop, and I'll be down not only a W but also a best friend. Cest la vie.
On your point re no more MBR, I've tried to tell myself the same thing. Things weren't getting any better when she was still in the bed. Maybe this way she'll get some space I wasn't physically able to give her and it will help in some way. At the very least, I've slept better the last four nights than the large majority of nights over the last 2.5 years. That can only help, too. Exhaustion sets in, you know?
Sounds to me like that friendship (your bf and W) was in a bit of an ethical gray area, but I think when divorce starts to tear apart marriages, families and friendships, that kind of hushed talk is inevitable. I think as long as it hasn't clearly crossed into something nefarious, I'd let it go.
Yes, exhaustion. It still hurts whenever I think about losing my W to someone else but I feel so hollowed out from having thought about it for so long. Albac likes to say gutted. I feel gutted and hollowed and the insides all burned out, nothing left inside to suffer and wretch, just dead, just hollow.
Your sig says "03.03.15 Not attracted to you." Mine's roughly the same. Our only chance for reconciliation, I think, is for our respective wives to be able to just imagine being attracted to us. Unlikely to happen, but if it were to happen, it's not going to happen by having more of the same interactions.
One thing holding me back is I'm not a good actor. I know it would really help if I could act like I don't care or that my heart isn't broken. But I do care, and my heart is broken. Making myself scarce and GALing is obviously one solution. But I also really want to be home with the children, so that puts a limit on how much I'm willing to be gone, and when she's there, it gets progressively harder not to clam up and look the LBS part. And that's a further turn off, it makes her feel guilty, I think, and she doesn't want any part of feeling guilty, so her anger/resentment grows.
Does anyone have any tips for "acting like you're moving on" as MWD puts it?
I could also use and would really appreciate some advice on my approaching anniversary (Sunday). Do I say anything? Mark it in any way? I dread it coming and going with no acknowledgment from her, and it chokes me up thinking about it. She hasn't mentioned it, and I'm not even sure she remembers it's coming up. We certainly don't look like we're going to be celebrating it in any way. With the move out of the MBR this week and the anniversary fast approaching, I'm really feeling like crap, and it's showing, and I know that undermines all of what I'm trying to do. It is rough.
I do have two GAL activities lined up for Sunday -- taking D12 to church, then Starbucks (her favorite, but I make her have decaf). Then I'm volunteering at the hospital for several hours shadowing a nurse to help patients and their families with non-medical things to make their experience better. There will still be a bunch of time in close proximity to W that day, though, and it makes my stomach do that flopping thing just thinking about it.
Home isn't the only place you can spend time with your kids. Why not take them to a park, museum, hiking trail, concert, etc., etc.?
It will be easier to focus on the kids when you're away from the tension, and I think the more time you spend focusing on other things, the easier it is to do.
Over the past 5 months, H and I have both stepped up our GAL activities, and our kids certainly haven't complained. ;-)
Hi Rose -- thanks for stopping by my thread. I've definitely made an effort to do more of my GAL with the kids, but it's always good to get that reminder that I can do more. They do love it when either of their parents gets them out and focuses intently on them, and it definitely makes me feel better doing that.
I'd be interested in people's thoughts on desire. Is it
actually possible for this to be rekindled in someone who had it -- at least some number of years in the past? Or is all of this already fatal? My W seems to have determined that there are only two possible paths: (1) stay married and be unattracted and unhappy, or (2) divorce and possibly be happy.
You probably know what I will say, but I'm going to say it anyway.
Your best friend may not have developed feelings for your W, and there is a slim chance she was not in an EA with him. The excuse he gave you about the secrecy seems a little weak, but that's just me. Anyway, if your W has had an EA or even IA (imaginary affair), it pushes out the feelings of desire for you.
When a WW has held resentment in her heart for years, and she has lost respect for her H........then her level of desire has been affected before OM ever comes on the scene. Those destructive feelings toward her H, leaves her vulnerable to some type of an A. However, it doesn't mean she
will have one.
With that in mind, you can see how she has to turn lose of the
resentment, start respecting her H, and of course.....if there is any type of A, it has to end.
The desire
can return. You know your W better than anyone else. Is she the type of woman who refuses to let go of past resentments? Will she put you in the position of striving to be good enough to deserve her? Will you always be adjusting your life in order to accommodate
her, as she continues to hunt for her happiness?
The hope has to be that the loss of attraction is driven by some as-of-yet unresolved hurt, anger, loss of respect, doesn't it? Because those in theory could be healed, forgiven, etc. But if it's just biological or a matter of "chemistry", how would it ever come back?
I believe her mental attitude and how she applies herself to the MR will affect her attraction. Sure, women are affected by what they see physically in the H, but the physical beauty fades. The chemistry has to come from a deeper place than just skin deep. If it was strictly biological, there would be no married elderly couples.
It is not easy for the H of a WW! He has to have her respect, and if she is unwilling to do her
inner work to get the MR on track.....then there's just so much the H can do on his end. He can insist on her show of respect for him......and he can enforce boundaries, but he can't force her to feel something in her heart.
I don't know if you have thought about this, but it's like the H and his WW are in two separate time frames. (Maybe that's not the best way to describe it). You are wanting the two to become one. There is a process she needs to go through, in order for her to blend with you. And your part is standing your ground on what is right, based on your values, integrity, etc. You know she doesn't respect you and she takes advantage of your good nature,...... and don't forget your NGS accommodating her to keep her happy. She basically rules, and the result is she is miserable b/c her M did not make her happy!
You can determine what you can do to change those dynamics. It won't happen through sitting down and having a heart to heart discussion. Once she is
willing to actually put effort into saving her M......then a therapist that's worth his salt, needs to give guidance for the two of you to follow in piecing the M back together. In the meantime, there is that day to day of standing your ground and not putting up with her b.s. The space between the two time frames is uncomfortable b/c you find yourself constantly enforcing boundaries that she doesn't like. It's when you begin commanding respect in your own home, and applying consequences if ignored......and she doesn't like it. It's you not being subservient, period! It's a time that you cannot have expectations for her feelings to change for the better. It's a time she is going to be her worst. It's a time of pressure and testing for you. It's a time you cannot show fear. It's a time you may have to let go. It's a time that two separate wills are in a power struggle. In the past, she always had her way.....regardless. She will not give that up easily. She does not see M as a team. She says she wants equality, but she doesn't. She wants to be in a higher position, and give you the jobs she doesn't like, that doesn't build her self-esteem and make her happy.
Changing the dynamics may not prove to help your stitch, however, continuing with the same old NGS is not working. She is not going to admire or be attracted to a man with NGS.
Thanks, Sandi. I feel like I'm always the one taking blows and falling backward. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to at least look like I'm not falling apart, because I think my feelings are way too transparent. I have no acting background, so I'm sort of lost as to how this happens, but I figure this is a necessary first step before I can command the sort of respect you're talking about.
Have your kids noticed that your W is sleeping in the spare bedroom?
Not yet, Gump. She makes the bed before they're awake. This weekend might be different. She sleeps later, and S10 gets up earlier on weekends, so . . .
By now both of my kids have noticed that one of us is on the couch and asked why. My IC thinks we should let them know we're having marriage trouble (w/o going into details). But I've only had the heart to just brush off their question by saying it's just more comfortable this way right now. But "divorce" is not on my kids' radar, whereas it appears your kids are much more afraid of it. Just heart breaking, the whole thing.
I don't know how you can be stronger, JR. Don't know....
Yeah, mine definitely know, and they even know the dynamic (Mom driving the bus, me trying to catch up, etc.). It is heartbreaking.
Screw it -- I'm about to levae for work and, instead of acting like I feel, I'm going to act like a guy who doesn't give a $%&$ and see what that feels like.
Home isn't the only place you can spend time with your kids. Why not take them to a park, museum, hiking trail, concert, etc., etc.?
It will be easier to focus on the kids when you're away from the tension, and I think the more time you spend focusing on other things, the easier it is to do.
Over the past 5 months, H and I have both stepped up our GAL activities, and our kids certainly haven't complained. ;-)
100% agree with rose here. When I get my D out of the house and away from my W it's like a 500lb weight is lifted off both of us. It's amazing what some sunshine and fresh air will do to your mood JR!
Screw it -- I'm about to levae for work and, instead of acting like I feel, I'm going to act like a guy who doesn't give a $%&$ and see what that feels like.
Don't act JR. Be that confident guy. No need to act like you don't give a s$&t, just focus on yourself and what makes you happy. hell, draw your confidence from how steadfast you've been in standing up for your M. That takes integrity as a man and you should be proud of that!
I like what lt0402 said about drawing your confidence.
Your W might be driving the bus, but you're the one w/ the right map, you're the one truly concerned for the passengers. You're the only adult on the bus. You might feel jerked around, but you're the one with integrity and heart for what matters. She can't take that away from you -- nobody can.
Thanks lt0402 and ForGump -- really appreciate the support.
Last night went well. I kept it light and breezy. We split a bottle of wine over the course of several hours, talked like friends for quite a while on the back porch (an owl (my spirit animal, if internet tests are to be believed) flew very close to us and sat in a tree for quite a while just looking at us). W even hung out in MBR for a while and made small talk before heading to her new bedroom. It wasn't quite the arrow to the chest when she left that it has been the prior 4-5 nights, but it's starting to feel permanent and part of the gradual plan she has and is now implementing.
Sunday's my anniversary. W has either forgotten or is deliberately not going to mark it in any way. So I know I also need to not draw attention to it, but it's hard. It was always one of my favorite days of the year. She actually wants us to go out to eat the day before with several other couples, and I want to say to her "I'd rather go out the follow day . . .", but I don't guess that's BD-approved.
Rereading that, it sounds like Friend Zone, and I should have been more distant, doing things that were interesting by myself. Ugh. This stuff is impossible.
Rereading that, it sounds like Friend Zone, and I should have been more distant, doing things that were interesting by myself. Ugh. This stuff is impossible.
I don't know that the Friend Zone is bad in your sitch. Last I remember, there was no OM and your wife wasn't being wild or irresponsible.
I'm not sure shutting down the friendship is going to help win her back.
But, maybe I'm wrong. The gender difference might be as significant as the wandering/walk away difference.
JRuss, I am really pulling for you to stay strong on your anniversary day. As you know I had mine yesterday and I survived it okay but I also didn't have two young kids to deal with and my W is out of the house. I'm sure having your W around is makes it a hundred times worse.
I know I'm probably in the 100 percent friend zone, but I'm doing it as it seems to make my life easier to deal with and my DB coach said I have to be her friend before I can be her lover again. I can't imagine dealing with an angry and resentful W while I'm separated and probably heading towards a divorce.
I think there is a question about a possible OM, now. The jury is still out.
Sandi -- she may have created a fantasy OM in my friend, but I'm pretty close to positive there's no one else, at least not yet. That may be enough to make her full-on WW, I don't know. I can say she is at times disrespectful/antagonistic to me, but she has done none of the more overt things I read about WWs doing here. Doesn't do the Girls Gone Wild thing, isn't dressing inappropriately, etc. I've always had difficulty putting her in one of the DB "boxes". She's certainly dissatisfied with her marriage, certainly doesn't respect me the way she'd need to in a healthy marriage and is fantasizing about a future that gets her out of the marriage. She's maybe more walk-away than wayward, I don't know.
Honestly, her main, overarching "symptom" (probably not the right word) is a general dissatisfaction with the life she has right now. She is overwhelmed by the demands of working the job she thought she wanted, still trying to be a good mother and, honestly, I think she sees a split as a way to get some time just to breath and not have quite as much responsibility.
So a lot of my 180s have involved trying to take things off her plate and be more helping than I was pre-BD. That at times runs into NGS/doormat issues, so I'm still trying to figure out the right balance there.
I didn't fit into some of the boxes either. For years I was much like your W. I had carried resentment and disrespect around in my heart for years. I had a lot of unmet expectations from M, and unmet emotional needs. I was always trying to find something that would make me happy, to fill the loneliness and stop the depression.
I used to be embarrassed to admit it, but I was hooked on romantic novels. The embarrassing part is how it would leave me feeling so hungry for love and romance. It actually made me more resentful toward my H for not being more like the hero in the novels.
I would see our neighbor who was constantly working in his yard or remodeling his house, and resent my H for not being like our neighbor. I was bad about comparing my H to other men.
Over time, I became more & more depressed about my life and all the "bad stuff" that continued to happen in our lives. It's a long story, so I won't get into it any further, except to tell you that I became very vulnerable. When a person is "reaching out" b/c they are unhappy, lonely, and trying to find comfort, love, excitement, companionship, or whatever.......they can get into trouble pretty quickly. If you had known me, you would have said I was the last person to do what I did. And, I would have probably agreed!
I am trying to say that when certain conditions continue for a long time......a person can become vulnerable to things they never were in the past. That's not an excuse, and I knew better. All it took was someone saying the right thing that fed my ego and made me feel in a way I had not felt in a really long time.
So, I can see the same thing happening with your W. Whether she's in an EA with your friend, or not, she is vulnerable for one. She put herself in this position of vulnerability, b/c of her mental attitude and how something/someone is suppose to make her happy.
We have had former LBH's who would discover the W was in an EA, then approach the OM and find out that OM knew nothing about the WW's feelings. I believe that is quite possible in some situations. I think your friend should have been a heck of lot smarter, if he really is as innocent as he claims. However, that doesn't mean she wasn't having feelings for him.....and allowed those feelings to affect her MR.
I don't disagree with any of that, sandi. I think in my situation, since we have this bizarre "1-2 years for the kids' benefit" thing laying over our sitch, that my W, at least for now, sees that as when she'll "escape" and hasn't felt the need to go further down the wayward road, because she knows she's out at something like a date certain (that, apparently, only she gets to know). I definitely understand that she's vulnerable to some smooth talking POS swooping in, though, believe me: it makes me crazy thinking about the possibility, and I try to keep it compartmentalized, because it's debilitating and keeps me from DBing. Thank you as always for the thoughts, and I don't judge for liking romance novels once upon a time!
RDS -- thanks for the kind thoughts re the anniversary. I'm just going to try to stay busy and treat it like any other day, and, hopefully, a good day with lots of GAL and kid stuff.
> "I'd rather go out the follow day . . .", but I don't guess that's BD-approved.
Ha! JR, you might not know write from right but ... you ain't lacking a subtle sense of humor.
> Friend-zone
MWD coaches advocate friendship while the conventional wisdom in the forum is to not become a castrated friend. I think what I've wound up doing is to be a good friend in short bursts, but always end it quickly, don't linger. Let her know I can be a good friend, but on my own terms, I'm not going to sit around and mope for her attention.
> when certain conditions continue for a long time......a person can
> become vulnerable to things they never were in the past
Really insightful, I think.
> find out that OM knew nothing about the WW's feelings
I'm about to go write about this in my thread.
Try not to place a lot of stock into what she says about the 1-2 yrs for the sake of the kids. It sounds like a stall tactic, to me.....or to keep you from pressuring her.
Re the 1-2 years, it (two years, at least) supposedly dovetails with when my youngest will be done with the very good public school we're zoned for and will be moving to private school, so where we live won't matter. We'll sell the house, split the proceeds and live the two-home life in earnest.
I'm trying to stick with what cadet tells everyone who first posts here: she's given me the gift of time, and I need to use it. That said, I think I'd be in a much stronger, better place if she didn't live under the same roof as me. I continue to think that's not the best thing for my children, though, so here I am.
I find DB-ing to be schizophrenic. In front of my MLCW, I'm Mr Cool-As-Cucumber. Driving to and from work, I'm sobbing at red lights, pounding on my steering wheel.
FOrGump -- I'm not as cool as you are in front of my W, but I too frequently lose it in the car. I guess I'm still looking for that elusive detachment.
I hear ya. When can we be authentic??
Maybe today, Buxom. Why not?
I hope you are doing well!
Still up and down JRuss. I'm making progress personally but detachment seem a to argue with hope and hope trumps.
My WH is opening up more, seeing a counselor and being eerily transparent without my telling him to.
Sounds pretty good, Buxom, all things considered. Hang in there -- it's a marathon, not a sprint. So they say.
Hi Buxom,
Transparent. Can you give an example and why this differs?
Surfer.
Hey surfer, transparent in that he's showing me emails, inviting me along to the office when normally he would take off there for hours to be with WH. He's regularly telling me where he is and while not snooping, I find out that he is indeed doing what he has said. He's in serious counseling and sharing some really private stuff that he doesn't have to do. He's also doing more for me as little surprises and not because I ask.
JRuss,
Please start a new thread. Thanks!