Looks like I hit the 100 post ceiling again (which is both sad and pretty awesome), so I'm starting a new thread. Here are links to the two previous ones. I think I'm mainly just venting at this point as opposed to making and R progress, but I'm really grateful for the posters here who offer their support. I hope everyone here finds more happiness, more often.
Thread 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692423&page=1Thread 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692430#Post2692430
AndrewP -- yeah, I live in fear of that second (or third, fourth) BD. And it makes me feel week, which I hate. Can you ever be detached enough that that wouldn't tear you up? I guess so, because people move on all the time, but it seems like a long way to travel.
JRuss - I certainly haven't become that detached. Each one is a fresh punch in the gut piled on top of all the other bruises. The only way for me to start to heal from any of it is for this to be over.
One thing I don't hear you guys saying is ... well, I think my wife is hot. My attraction for her never waned.
ForGump - if you've followed some of my recent posts you'll know that my W is a short dumpy middle-aged woman. Her smile lit up my world. Holding her close gave me a thrill each and every time. I was excited to come home and be kissed by her and regretted every morning when I had to kiss her goodbye because it would be hours before I could do it again. So yes - my wife was hot.
I had to re-read all of that to put it into the past tense. It's now been almost a month since I last saw her but at least I got to hold her in my arms one last time before letting her go.
I'm concluding from reading y'alls posts hotness has nothing to do with staying in a M/loving/ whatever you call it. Damn it, I'm hot, very fit, take care of myself, very feminine. (and I'm nice).5'3 110lbs, in my 40s, I'm beginning to think it doesn't really matter. Some of my friends have let themselves go and are in marriages where the couple is so in love with each other it is sickening. AndrewP is backing this up with his sweet descriptions of his w (Sorry!)
I see my H for him to get more stuff and I look good. Doesn't change the rush to put more boxes in the car.
I'm concluding from reading y'alls posts hotness has nothing to do with staying in a M/loving/ whatever you call it. ... I'm beginning to think it doesn't really matter.
It does and doesn't. I find my W very physically attractive and that is something hard to let go in an unraveling marriage. I have lost all objectivity about her, so I don't know if others would call her "hot". All I know is I find her to be hot.
It doesn't seem to matter in the sense that marriage problems afflict all kinds of people. Probably because no matter how hot you are, after the honeymoon phase is over, everybody has to contend with normal marital issues.
Personally I always have and still do find my W extremely attractive. The problem is so do many many others. This gives her so much confidence and also the attitude that she can always do better. Sure she might be hot now and think it means something but looks fade and people grow old and then she will have to rely on the person she is and not the way she looks.
Altair -- other than a little gray hair at the temples and some wrinkles around my eyes, I look (and feel, at least physically, mentally not so much) better than I have at any time since I first met my W 20+ years ago. When adjusted for age, I'm easily looking the best I have in 25 years. Now, I'd gotten pretty jiggly and lost confidence for a long, long time due to not eating right and not exercising regularly, so the amount of improvement is directly related to the lack of effort previously, but the transformation has been significant. It doesn't seem to have had any effect, unfortunately.
I think walkaways/waywards stop seeing who is in front of them and only see what they saw back when they were falling out of love. They sort of close their eyes/mind/heart off at the point they check out, despite the improvements, work, etc. their now terrified spouse is putting in to stop being the spouse that contributed to the marital problems. Maybe they don't trust the changes; maybe they don't care because they're so far gone and down the emotional road. In any event, I get the sense that they see only the old us.
It [censored], and getting to where I don't care, at least not nearly as much, has been completely mystifying. I read again and again from very well meaning folks here that "you need to detach". The how is what I still haven't gotten. There's no switch to hit and just make it happen. I think maybe you just finally get sick of not being valued or seen, and you just become a walkaway yourself, and you move on, like our spouses did to us. But then DBing would say to remain open to a R. Threading that needle seems impossible to me.
albac -- my W is very fit, petite (5'3", 110 lbs, maybe), and I think she is beautiful, but she's not a classic "beauty". I think she feels time is slipping away before her looks go (I disagree), and she's antsy to use that time to her advantage. Hence the 2 year slow ride into D. That gives her cover w/r/t any suggestion she didn't have the kids' best interest at heart, and she's probably figuring she'll still be sufficiently alluring to attract the next guy(s) at 46 or so whenever she moves out/on.
I think walkaways/waywards stop seeing who is in front of them and only see what they saw back when they were falling out of love. They sort of close their eyes/mind/heart off at the point they check out, despite the improvements, work, etc. their now terrified spouse is putting in to stop being the spouse that contributed to the marital problems. Maybe they don't trust the changes; maybe they don't care because they're so far gone and down the emotional road. In any event, I get the sense that they see only the old us.
Honestly JR, I think they are so far into the fog by the time they BD that they just don't care anymore. It [censored], but seeing firsthand how cold, vindictive, and uncaring my WW has become has cemented that fact w/ me. There seems to be no inclination to see things through the LBS' eyes, which seems to drive all of us crazy.
It [censored], and getting to where I don't care, at least not nearly as much, has been completely mystifying. I read again and again from very well meaning folks here that "you need to detach". The how is what I still haven't gotten. There's no switch to hit and just make it happen. I think maybe you just finally get sick of not being valued or seen, and you just become a walkaway yourself, and you move on, like our spouses did to us. But then DBing would say to remain open to a R. Threading that needle seems impossible to me.
I'm by no means an expert on detaching, but I could see it naturally happening based upon how your WW treats you. If our Ws would stay as cold as they are now, I think it would just naturally push us to detachment. My fear is that as we start getting more detached, our Ws pull back on the coldness and it counters any progress we've made. I too am curious to get feedback from folks on if the detachment process had starts/stops/setbacks. It almost seems like detachment is never a binary thing, but most likely a sliding scale that is ever changing. Not there yet, so take it w/ a grain of salt!
albac -- my W is very fit, petite (5'3", 110 lbs, maybe), and I think she is beautiful, but she's not a classic "beauty". I think she feels time is slipping away before her looks go (I disagree), and she's antsy to use that time to her advantage. Hence the 2 year slow ride into D. That gives her cover w/r/t any suggestion she didn't have the kids' best interest at heart, and she's probably figuring she'll still be sufficiently alluring to attract the next guy(s) at 46 or so whenever she moves out/on.
I know what you mean. My W is not a model, but is a petite, intelligent redhead w/ a quirky sense of humor, great eyes, and great smile. After we had our D9 she had a thyroid issue and gained a bunch of weight, but she was still the same beautiful woman she's always been. She's shaken off that weight over the past 1.5yrs and now is back to looking like she did when we first started dating. I too think she sees the clock ticking and wants to see if there's better out there before heading into her 40s. My problem is that I've never wavered on seeing her as my beautiful W and I think she leverages that against me immensely. Recently though, I see that beauty being shaken by the things going on inside her. There's an immense ugliness currently that's helping me to at least minimize some of the feelings I get when looking at her.
Long story short, I don't think the hotness has anything to do w/ it. It's more the feelings that you've established for her over the years driving the beauty/non-beauty question. Those feelings are much more difficult to detach from apparently.
It had been too long since I revisited Job's post re detachment. Since I'm really struggling with even understanding what it is, much less implementing it, I thought I would cut and past it here in the hope that maybe a conversation around it might break out as time permits that might be helpful to those of us who're interested in getting from "not detached" and enmeshed to "detached". I think this is the key to me getting and staying happy, whether my M survives or not, so I'm maybe more obsessed with the topic than others, but here goes. I'm going to put stuff in bold that resonates with me personally (not all of it does, e.g., desire to rescue) and some italicized editorializing, musing, etc.
For those who need some help in understanding detachment:
Caution...a lengthy article!
I found this article on another site. Please take the time to read it, print it off and refer back to it whenever you have questions.
"What is detachment?
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow people, places or things the freedom to be themselves.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix another person from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving another person "the space" to be herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with people.
* Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place or thing.
* Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which you are free to feel your own feelings when you see another person falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for their failure or faltering.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow people to be who they "really are" rather than who you "want them to be."
* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by people who in the past have been overly dependent or enmeshed with you.
What are the negative effects not detaching?
If you are unable to detach from people, places or things, then you:
* Will have people, places or things which become over-dependent on you.
* Run the risk of being manipulated to do things for people, at places or with things which you do not really want to do.
* Can become an obsessive "fix it" who needs to fix everything you perceive to be imperfect.
* Run the risk of performing tasks because of the intimidation you experience from people, places or things.
* Will most probably become powerless in the face of the demands of the people, places or things whom you have given the power to control you.
* Will be blind to the reality that the people, places or things which control you are the uncontrollables and unchangeables you need to let go of if you are to become a fully healthy, coping individual.
* Will be easily influenced by the perception of helplessness which these people, places or things project.
* Might become caught up with your idealistic need to make everything perfect for people, places or things important to you even if it means your own life becomes unhealthy.
* Run the risk of becoming out of control of yourself and experience greater low self-esteem as a result.
* Will most probably put off making a decision and following through on it, if you rationally recognize your relationship with a person, place or thing is unhealthy and the only recourse left is to get out of the relationship.
* Will be so driven by guilt and emotional dependence that the sickness in the relationship will worsen.
* Run the risk of losing your autonomy and independence and derive your value or worth solely from the unhealthy relationship you continue in with the unhealthy person, place or thing."
I will continue to post more of the article.
Here is the rest of the article.
"How is detachment a control issue?
Detachment is a control issue because:
* It is a way of de-powering the external "locus of control" issues in your life and a way to strengthen your internal "locus of control."
* If you are not able to detach emotionally or physically from a person, place or thing, then you are either profoundly under its control or it is under your control.
* The ability to "keep distance" emotionally or physically requires self-control and the inability to do so is a sign that you are "out of control."
* If you are not able to detach from another person, place or thing, you might be powerless over this behavior which is beyond your personal control.
* You might be mesmerized, brainwashed or psychically in a trance when you are in the presence of someone from whom you cannot detach.
* You might feel intimidated or coerced to stay deeply attached with someone for fear of great harm to yourself or that person if you don't remain so deeply involved.
* You might be an addicted caretaker, fixer or rescuer who cannot let go of a person, place or thing you believe cannot care for itself.
* You might be so manipulated by another's con, "helplessness," over dependency or "hooks" that you cannot leave them to solve their own problems.
* If you do not detach from people, places or things, you could be so busy trying to "control" them that you completely divert your attention from yourself and your own needs.
* By being "selfless" and "centered" on other people, you are really a controller trying to fix them to meet the image of your ideal for them.
* Although you will still have feelings for those persons, places and things from which you have become detached, you will have given them the freedom to become what they will be on their own merit, power, control and responsibility.
* It allows every person, place or thing with which you become involved to feel the sense of personal responsibility to become a unique, independent and autonomous being with no fear of retribution or rebuke if they don't please you by what they become.
What irrational thinking leads to an inability to detach?
* If you should stop being involved, what will they do without you?
* They need you and that is enough to justify your continued involvement.
* What if they commit suicide because of your detachment? You must stay involved to avoid this.
* You would feel so guilty if anything bad should happen to them after you reduced your involvement with them.
* They are absolutely dependent on you at this point and to back off now would be a crime.
* You need them as much as they need you.
* You can't control yourself because every day you promise yourself "today is the day" you will detach your feelings but you feel driven to them and their needs.
* They have so many problems, they need you.
* Being detached seems so cold and aloof. You can't be that way when you love and care for a person. It's either 100 percent all the way or no way at all.
* If you should let go of this relationship too soon, the other might change to be like the fantasy or dream you want them to be.
* How can being detached from them help them? It seems like you should do more to help them.
* Detachment sounds so final. It sounds so distant and non-reachable. You could never allow yourself to have a relationship where there is so much emotional distance between you and others. It seems so unnatural.
* You never want anybody in a relationship to be emotionally detached from you so why would you think it a good thing to do for others?
* The family that plays together stays together. It's all for one and one for all. Never do anything without including the significant others in your life.
* If one hurts in the system, we all hurt. You do not have a good relationship with others unless you share in their pain, hurt, suffering, problems and troubles.
* When they are in "trouble," how can you ignore their "pleas" for help? It seems cruel and inhuman.
* When you see people in trouble, confused and hurting, you must always get involved and try to help them solve the problems.
* When you meet people who are "helpless," you must step in to give them assistance, advice, support and direction.
* You should never question the costs, be they material, emotional or physical, when another is in dire need of help.
* You would rather forgo all the pleasures of this world in order to assist others to be happy and successful.
* You can never "give too much" when it comes to providing emotional support, comforting and care of those whom you love and cherish.
* No matter how badly your loved ones hurt and abuse you, you must always be forgiving and continue to extend your hand in help and support.
* Tough love is a cruel, inhuman and anti-loving philosophy of dealing with the troubled people in our lives and you should instead love them more when they are in trouble since "love" is the answer to all problems.
How to Develop Detachment
In order to become detached from a person, place or thing, you need to:
First: Establish emotional boundaries between you and the person, place or thing with whom you have become overly enmeshed or dependent on. This seems "asked and answered". What are "emotional boundaries" in this context, and how are they "established"?
Second: Take back power over your feelings from persons, places or things which in the past you have given power to affect your emotional well-being. I definitely do this: mindreading, letting her moods make my moods darken, feel hopeless, etc. But, again, HOW do you do you "take back power"? Just decide it will be a point of personal emphasis?
Third: "Hand over" to your Higher Power the persons, places and things which you would like to see changed but which you cannot change on your own. Don't want to step on any toes, but I personally feel like there isn't a "higher power", at least not one who (a) cares about my relationship, but (b) lets children starve to death the world over.
Fourth: Make a commitment to your personal recovery and self-health by admitting to yourself and your Higher Power that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, rescue or heal other persons, places and things. For me it's maybe the need to let go of the hope that she will move back toward me? I've never thought she needs "rescue" . . .
Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not want to get better nor see a need to change.
Sixth: Recognize that you need to be healthy yourself and be "squeaky clean" and a "role model" of health in order for another to recognize that there is something "wrong" with them that needs changing.
Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.
Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.
Ninth: Accept that addicted fixing, rescuing, enabling are "sick" behaviors and strive to extinguish these behaviors in your relationship to persons, places and things.
Tenth: Accept that many people, places and things in your past and current life are "irrational," "unhealthy" and "toxic" influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.
Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt and other irrational beliefs which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life. This is a big one for me, I think. Guilt for my contribution to where things got b/t us, guilt at not being able to prevent what's happening, guilt at letting my kids down . . .
Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or make better the persons, places and things in life over which you have no control or power to change.
Steps in Developing Detachment
Step 1: It is important to first identify those people, places and things in your life from which you would be best to develop emotional detachment in order to retain your personal, physical, emotional and spiritual health. To do this you need to review the following types of toxic relationships and identify in your journal if any of the people, places or things in your life fit any of the following 20 categories.
Types of Toxic Relationships
* You find it hard to let go of because it is addictive.
* The other is emotionally unavailable to you.
* Coercive, threatening, intimidating to you.
* Punitive or abusive to you.
* Non-productive and non-reinforcing for you.
* Smothering you.
* Other is overly dependent on you.
* You are overly dependent on the other.
* Other has the power to impact your feelings about yourself. Uh, yeah -- totally!
* Relationship in which you are a chronic fixer, rescuer or enabler.
* Relationship in which your obligation and loyalty won't allow you to let go.
* Other appears helpless, lost and out of control.
* Other is self-destructive or suicidal.
* Other has an addictive disease.
* Relationship in which you are being manipulated and conned.
* When guilt is a major motivating factor preventing your letting go and detaching.
* Relationship in which you have a fantasy or dream that the other will come around and change to be what you want.
* Relationship in which you and the other are competitive for control. This one is interesting. We're not "competitive" for it -- she has all of it. Ugh.
* Relationship in which there is no forgiveness or forgetting and all past hurts are still brought up to hurt one another.
* Relationship in which your needs and wants are ignored.
Step 2: Once you have identified the persons, places and things you have a toxic relationship with, and then you need to take each one individually and work through the following steps.
Step 3: Identify the irrational beliefs in the toxic relationship which prevent you from becoming detached. Address these beliefs and replace them with healthy, more rational ones. I'd like to think that the belief that we could have a good relationship again isn't "irrational", so I'm not sure what's being described here.
Step 4: Identify all of the reasons why you are being hurt and your physical, emotional and spiritual health is being threatened by the relationship. Well, it hurts to be told you're not attractive to the person you married, had children with, built a life with, etc. It undermines confidence in Self, validates feelings of inferiority and generally makes you question a lot about who you are and how you're seen. It makes you want to push closer, to make sure your changes are being noticed, and that there's still hope, but this just makes you more unattractive, and the cycle repeats, worse and worse each time.
Step 5: Accept and admit to yourself that the other person, place or thing is "sick," dysfunctional or irrational, and that no matter what you say, do or demand you will not be able to control or change this reality. Accept that there is only one thing you can change in life and that is you. All others are the unchangeables in your life. Change your expectations that things will be better than what they really are. Hand these people, places or things over to your Higher Power and let go of the need to change them.
Step 6: Work out reasons why there is no need to feel guilt over letting go and being emotionally detached from this relationship and free yourself from guilt as you let go of the emotional "hooks" in the relationship.
Step 7: Affirm yourself as being a person who "deserves" healthy, wholesome, health-engendering relationships in your life. You are a good person and deserve healthy relationships, at home, work and in the community.
Step 8: Gain support for yourself as you begin to let go of your emotional enmeshment with these relationships.
Step 9: Continue to call upon your Higher Power for the strength to continue to let go and detach.
Step 10: Continue to give no person, place or thing the power to affect or impact your feelings about yourself.
Step 11: Continue to detach and let go and work at self-recovery and self-healing as this poem implies.
"Letting Go"
* To "let go" does not mean to stop caring; it means I can't do it for someone else.
* To "let go" is not to cut myself off; it's the realization I can't control another.
* To "let go" is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences.
* To "let go" is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands.
* To "let go" is not to try to change or blame another; it's to make the most of myself.
* To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about.
* To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive.
* To "let go" is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being. Realizing I do judge her, and poorly, for what I see as a lack of loyalty, giving up way too easily, possibly endangering our kids, for basically being selfish.
* To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their own destinies.
* To "let go" is not to be protective; it's to permit another to face reality.
* To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept.
* To "let go" is not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
* To "let go" is not to criticize and regulate anybody, but to try to become what I dream I can be.
* To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires, but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
* To "let go" is to not regret the past, but to grow and live for the future. Perfectly said and oh so hard.
* To "let go" is to fear less and love myself more. Realizing I have a tremendous amount of fear I live with, that never fully goes away.
Step 12: If you still have problems detaching, then return to Step 1 and begin all over again. Probably many, many times!
Longest post ever?
JRuss--
Thanks. Lots of challenging ideas in there. I'd like to ask you, what does this mean for people like us who are separated-in-house, listening to the clock tock-tock, waiting for the guillotine to drop?
> How do you "Give another person 'the space' to be herself"?
> How do you "Develope and maintain a safe, emotional distance"?
And what about:
> To "let go" is not to cut myself off; it's the realization I can't control another.
How do we not cut ourselves off from our separated W's, while keeping a safe emotional distance?
I'd like to ponder the above questions in real-life scenarios. We're sitting at a dinner table. Do you carry on a normal H & W conversation? Do you ask how their day went and sympathize w/ their joy and sadness?
JRuss - thanks for this, I printed the list out so I cant take it home to read and highlight!
ForGump -- I do ask how her day went and sympathize w/ joy/sadness. Detaching runs head on into being present/validating at times, for me. I guess I should just be quiet and see if she initiates, but a 180 for me was to really work hard and teach myself to be present and listen, validate, not try to "fix" problems (which minimizes them, I've learned), so sitting there mute seems wrong.
On the larger picture of what does it mean for us inhouse separated types, more and more I'm thinking it probably means we're buggered. I'm not sure I've seen anyone who got even to piecing under that arrangement; seems that a party moving out is necessary in those still-rare instances where couples came back to each other.
Feels bleak.
I know what you mean. My W is not a model, but is a petite, intelligent redhead w/ a quirky sense of humor, great eyes, and great smile. After we had our D9 she had a thyroid issue and gained a bunch of weight, but she was still the same beautiful woman she's always been. She's shaken off that weight over the past 1.5yrs and now is back to looking like she did when we first started dating.
lt0402- this is the first time I read about what your W looks like, or good qualities "intelligent" & "quirky" that you've mentioned.
My W is a redhead as well!
You're probably right. Fahk.
But counselor, maybe we have to think outside the box a little. Maybe all those who precede us just did not go far enough, just were not crazy enough. Maybe there
IS a way to let our W's know that we are
FREAKING detached, we don't give a
SHITE what they think, we're just doing our own thing. I mean, just brainstorm and imagine with me for a while. If we had balls of steel, what would we do to just live our lives w/o caring about what our W's think?
Come on!!! Give me some ideas. I don't care how wild they are!
Get a trailer for the driveway and move her stuff into it? Wheel chocks optional ....
Hey - you asked.
A more realistic option but strongly not suggested because it kills your negotiating power and makes you look weak - you move out.
I struggled with this a lot as anyone who has read my ramblings will know. I "knew" from what I read here that the venerable sandi2 couldn't recall instances where an in-house couple reconciled. In my months here I "think" I saw one but it's hard to tell and I think it went sideways. Probably reconciling people stop posting much to our loss - there may be a higher percentage than we think. I'd love to have MWD's database to analyze for churn rates and keywords.
I still have no clue as to what eventually forced my WW out the door with all of our collectible plates except 3 (found those last night under piles of other stuff). There was a build-up of stress going on for quite a while before the move and almost like a suicide there were multiple false starts.
One thing that I did use the in-house separation for - hopefully to my benefit even though it was perhaps a bit "doormatish" was to have WW see what a great guy I'd become and how self-sufficient. Since she couldn't be relied on for meals, I made them - let her know when they were and left it up to her whether to show up or not. I took over cleaning and took a lot of pride in making our house look better than she ever managed. I wanted to tackle the mild hoarding but didn't have the courage to do that until she moved out (taking a lot of it with her). When she left I hope she thought of me as viable husband material again. She did express appreciation for some of the things I did although I'm not sure she realized I was doing them for me and not her. For my GAL activities like movies, theatre, community events I would tell her that I was going and invite her along - she always had a reason to not go. I was polite, respectful and
still blindsided when she actually did walk.
<reacted long rambling about what's going on now ... you're welcome>
What I often like to do with these things is to turn the problem upside down. What is it we're trying to achieve? Break the waywardness and
hope that they turn back to us not just as a Plan B but as their preferred choice (important). What can do that? According to the venerable sandi2 - A
serious loss due to the waywardness. How is a physical separation related to that? Dammifiknow.
From what sandi2 has written (guys we all need to send her fresh flowers every day - even if we're all still buggered she's given us guidance and hope) one of those losses can be of the MR itself - seems a bit kamikaze to me though. It's vital though that our WW can't "blame" us for it. I've occasionally thought of getting a young lady to carry on an online EA with me - but getting WW to believe it ??? A couple of instances I've read involved the WW getting an STD from OM. An idea I've played with was sending hookers to OM and getting him caught with them by WW.
In my own case I'm thinking that it will might be problems at work that do in my WW. She "loves" that job and her performance has gone waaay down in the last month or so. Only time will tell though and my crystal balls are on the fritz yet again. I don't even know the names of current movies it would seem
Any other thoughts? To be honest I've not paid much attention to threads at the point where the WW moves out but if memory serves it is usually (as might have been in my case) because carrying on the A while under the eyes of the LBH got too painful and stressful.
And oh yes - I've read "The Prince" multiple times - doesn't apply here.
Anyway - those are my thoughts - they're probably worth the price of admission.
p.s. One more thing -- have you tried MWD's phone-based coaching? I wonder what they would advise for you?
ForGump - from what I understand the coaches tend to have a softer approach than the people here on the forums. I've never really been clear on the connection between the "vets" and MWD - I suspect it's deliberately vague but have noticed that some people who reference coaching do seem to get more attention on their threads by certain "vets". Again - I also don't know of the success rates for people in different situations but the material I've been sent seems to emphasize couples counseling and retreats. Most of the people on the forums seem to be in a more hazardous spot with a WW/WH who won't repent.
I've been waffling about contacting MWD's team just to do a once-over of my sitch and give me some insights and guidelines - not sure if that is a service they offer. My IC I know gets a bit frustrated with me because I come looking for answers and not wanting to talk about my feelings.
Most of the people on the forums seem to be in a more hazardous spot with a WW/WH who won't repent.
Great. We're the Leftovers ...
Walt Disney could make a fortune with a movie about us - we just need some sort of cute cartoon mascot ...
Sorry - long stressful day. Can't help myself.
I think doodler is rubbing off on you AndrewP...
In all seriousness, I think the thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are a lot of different views on all of this, some are more firm than others, some are more soft. The thing is that while a lot of us have simmilar stories and situations, that doesn't mean our spouses are going to respond the same way to the same actions. We have to take all of the advice and views with a grain of salt and figure out what works and what doesn't. I still struggle with a lot of that myself because we still live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, and put on the appearance that nothing is wrong. No one else knows about the PA, my WW won't tell her friends or family, and I'm not going to out her as I know that will push her so far away there won't be a way to reconcile at that point. So I'm struggling with the hard vs soft actions, and trying to figure it out.
As far as a disney character, I think we'd have to have something that evolves through the movie. Starts out as a doormat and becomes a strong confident man or woman by the end of the film.
Pokemon!
I second what lfm is saying. One of the things that frustrated me so very much when I first came to this board was how many people just kept offering the same basic introductory things without considering that indeed each sitch is unique. They may have been right but it all seemed to stark and formulaic.
What works for someone with a hot young WW who is looking to have some fun probably won't work for me.
I know what you mean. My W is not a model, but is a petite, intelligent redhead w/ a quirky sense of humor, great eyes, and great smile. After we had our D9 she had a thyroid issue and gained a bunch of weight, but she was still the same beautiful woman she's always been. She's shaken off that weight over the past 1.5yrs and now is back to looking like she did when we first started dating.
lt0402- this is the first time I read about what your W looks like, or good qualities "intelligent" & "quirky" that you've mentioned.
My W is a redhead as well!
cheesyt, yep, even if she is making things a mess recently, she's still the most beautiful woman in the world to me. She's unique, which is what drew me too her and she's typically an awesome mom.
Now if only I could get that woman back! This new one is no Bueno! Everyone always warned me about marrying a redhead by the way.
I think this may be where the distinction b/t WW and WAS might matter. I think it's very, very hard to "break" the waywardness of a WW without, as sandi2 puts it, a significant "loss". Which is next to impossible when you live in the same home and are trying to make it look like everything's fine for your children's sake. There's such an element of anger/resentment in those situations, along with a seemingly uncontrollable need to act out, that the mere sight of you -- even if it's a remade, 180'd, GAL-ing machine version of you --- just drives them further into whatever it is they really want to do.
Where your S is WAS, however, but hasn't physically "walked away" yet, maybe just a $hit ton of GALing and 180s could work. It seems that the main attribute of a WAS is that, in her mind, she worked very hard to save her marriage, but it didn't work (uhh, mainly because you didn't tell us????!!!!!!), and she quit and doesn't think she could ever be persuaded that we can or would do the things that would allow her to recommit to the relationship. Quitting can be changed, I'd think, especially if you are really nailing the things that caused her to fall out of love with you in the first place.
At least that's what I tell myself, and why I always find myself trying to reaffirm for myself that my W is "only" WAS and not WW. But I have no idea if that's right.
I just want to chime in and say that a key to DB is to truly DETACH. I think one can go nuts doing GAL & 180... but it *still* communicates to the W that this is meant for her. I think detaching while in-house is ... you gotta rise to the level of a Jedi. Takes some serious level of meditation, and deliberate action. You have to harness The Force... somehow. I'm trying to work on it. I think my W still feels my life revolves around hers.
Which returns us to the "how" part of detachment, especially when they are right there, can observe you doing what you're doing, and continue to think it's all about/for them. Pulling that off is the stuff of Jedis, for sure. Are we up for it?
JRuss,
In my opinion "trying to detach" is an oxymoron because the act of trying requires acknowledgement of attachment. It's similar to looking into one mirror in order to see yourself in another mirror. It goes on into infinity. (And it's possible that I'm full of sh*t.)
I think detachment is a side effect of moving on with your life. GAL is the tool and immersion is the goal.
Can anyone tell me what I should do with the two plain white columns on my front porch?
To get down into the weeds a bit ... what I try to do when I get up is, "How would I act around a neutral housemate?" I try to be positive, considerate, but try not to let my mind wander into, "How is she doing?" "What is she going to do today," Etc. Let my housemate live her life.
And for the weekend, I just try to schedule it the way I want to, to meet my needs/wants (which includes wanting to do stuff with my kids!!!) And coordinate w/ her on the schedule. I actually just scheduled several possible activities for the weekend w/ some mutual friends, and when she became aware, she asked if she can join the group on one of the activities. I said yes. (Actually, I slipped and said something even more welcoming. Bad house elf!)
I write this to share & get your feedback. I'm good w/ 2x4's, 4x4's, claw-hammers, mallets....
doodler -- I definitely think you're right. What I'm struggling with is how we arrive at the needed side effect when our W is right there, still looking very fine, we're still acting like we're happily married for the kids' benefit, etc. Play acting messes with my head, and I forget a fair amount of the time that it's acting, and I get to hoping I'm seeing tender shoots and . . . her Cling Detector will go off, and she'll then drop some Arctic Tundra on my a$$, and I feel like I'm back to square one, emotionally speaking.
ForGump -- I get it, in theory. But we don't typically sleep 2" from our neutral housemates, we haven't ML with our neutral housemates a zillion times, our neutral housemates don't in their sleep grab our arm and hold up (until they wake up, realize it, and let go like it scalds them) and they don't kiss us on the cheek on the way to work in the AM.
I'm starting to get into whiny territory, sorry!
JRuss,
My WW and I did the same thing. I kept hoping for an improved marriage and she kept playing me. When she moved out, suddenly everything felt much lighter and happier. I guess that was the beginning of "real" detachment; I realised everything was just as good (or better) without her.
But, having said that, I think it's situation dependent. If my wife had been at least somewhat open to working on our marriage, then I think it would've been better for her to remain at home. Unfortunately, her litmus test for me was acceptance of the OM as "just a friend." Fortunately, my MC/IC would have none of that. (My IC is truly a wonderful woman.)
But, this is about detachment, and I agree, detaching while living together has got to be difficult.
Which is why detaching w/ in-house WW requires some serious Jedi mind trick. Truly hard to detach when the situation has you attached in so many ways. But I also believe that's the only chance we have (and not a very good one at that.)
doodler -- my W is a bit of hybrid. Resolutely refuses to work on the R, go to MC, etc., but, at least to date, no OM (I've snooped, I'll admit it, embarrassingly).
She's just "done" and sees no way we could be rehabilitated but, for now, is willing to play house while our youngest completes 4th (just started) and 5th grade because we're zoned for a great public school but will in any event be putting him in private school for 6th and can live anywhere, in two houses, etc.
So I keep hoping the GALing and 180ing breaks down the Berlin Wall she's built up around her heart, but my continued difficulty detaching undermines the efficacy of those otherwise really good activities. They read as "because of" or "for her" instead of evidence of me moving on emotionally, without her.
Any advice that ever occurs to anyone following this thread will be gratefully appreciated.
JRuss,
I hope she's able to work her way out of whatever it is that she's going through. Two years is a good amount of time; I hope you have the stamina to wait for her to snap out of the fog.
If she's happy playing house, then do you think she might let you play doctor on occasion?
doodler -- she does let me play doctor sometimes, although it's been a while. Detachment it helps not (he says in jedi Yoda voice).
I second what lfm is saying. One of the things that frustrated me so very much when I first came to this board was how many people just kept offering the same basic introductory things without considering that indeed each sitch is unique. They may have been right but it all seemed to stark and formulaic.
If I may, gentlemen, I would like to join the conversation.
In response to what was said above, I would like to add my thoughts, too. I have learned from experience that a newcomer would read advice in another thread for
another board member.........and the newcomer would take that piece of advice to apply to his
own situation. If anything was said to the newcomer about he should or shouldn't do it, he would say, "Well, that's what I read on so & so's thread.
I agree that every person's situation may call for more personalized or individual advice, however, if it is
that far from the usual basic DB advice initially given, then it needs to be specified....so as not to cause confusion to others. Whether we call ourselves the softer or tougher, it should at least resemble DBing. Look how MWD wrote the overview of the steps in DR, before she started to emphasize on certain situations.
As for as offering the same introductory type of advice, most everyone in the newcomers section are......well, a newcomer. A few may be venturing out to post to another member for the first time, and don't really know a lot to say......or they may advise what they have read from someone else. I feel like many respond to let that newcomer know people are seeing him reaching out for help. FWIW, I use to be one of the first to respond to a newcomer, and I would type a post that would be ridiculously long (hard to believe, huh?). Then I would check back later to find the newcomer had never returned after his first post! IDK.....maybe I scared him away!
I can understand what you are saying and how that might be frustrating to an anxious newcomer waiting for help. I don't know that we could finely tune a newcomer's first couple of posts enough to give him some advice that would not be considered "general" or
basic DBing. In fact, all newcomers don't tell enough of the information we would need (in their initial posts), in order to determine they need advice pertinent to just
their situation.
In all seriousness, I think the thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are a lot of different views on all of this, some are more firm than others, some are more soft. The thing is that while a lot of us have simmilar stories and situations, that doesn't mean our spouses are going to respond the same way to the same actions.
That's true, and although you may not recognize the alien in your W's body, you still know her better than anyone else. When I first joined, there were several who promoted exposing the cheater to EVERYONE. The relatives, town, church, schools......you name it! Although I have been able to see a few cases where the families needed to know the truth.........it would not have worked if my H had exposed me before the world! I would have left town and maybe committed suicide. IDK, but I was not in a healthy emotional state.
On the other side of this subject, let me tell you something I've seen several times. I have seen newcomers who were attending IC, MC, calling DB coaches, and reading every relationship book/program and every MR forum they could find........and then respond to us,
"I'm so confused b/c that other forum said such & such, and [i]you are saying something different"[/i]. I mean, seriously? Every book, forum, coach, and counselor in the world are going to give the same cookie-cutter advice? Every author who writes about MR, is going to say every thing the
other author is saying in
his book? Why do people think they are going to get the same advice world wide? If everyone gave the same advice, then why would that newcomer continue to grab everything in sight, to see what the next person or website advised about MR's?
Much of what is said on the boards, come from personal experience. Some are great advisors about MLC. We have some here who have brought light to spouses of abuse. If you do nothing but stick around to read threads, you'll begin to learn by observation.
Anyway, I've written another book.......so, I'll close for now.
Great points, sandi, as always. As a former lurker, then newb, often i feel like posting for just that, to show support that someone is out there on the interwebs sharing your pain. Because it seems a lot of people on here are like me, alone with their thoughts, not getting out as much as we should for a variety of reasons. I hope, in a tiny way, I can make someone feel heard, at least.
WWSD?
What
Would
Sandi
Do?
I wish I knew WWSD in JRuss's situation?
Me too, FG. I think she might say I need to figure out a way for my W to experience serious "loss", but that runs into my thoughts above re the WAS/WW distinction, and I'm not sure that's the best approach (or even how I'd do it short of moving out, which I'm not doing) if she's WAS (as opposed to WW).
For now I'm just going to put my head down and get back to DBing, try to be as outwardly happy and not affected as possible, intensify GALing and 180s, try to (re)focus on how good that can make and has made me feel and see what happens.
Seriously, maybe that's the route to detachment: if you do everything you can, how can you do more? And don't you eventually come to the realization that there isn't anything else you can be doing? And does that maybe give you the peace of mind to let go?
Going to get of the internet for a while and work out!
props to all of you guys with you in-house S!!!
I did it for a week and could NOT hold my sh!t together. Still hard, but better now that we are physically separated.
JRuss, maybe I'm too optimistic, (I wouldn't even know where to start) but to me it seems like if your W sticking around and the fact that there isn't OM you could turn things around? as a newb i may or may not have too much hope!
interesting conversation guys about in-house separation leading to R and physical separation leading to R, let me throw my 2cents. it seems very counter intuitive to be dim / dark and living separately and blah blah to R. I am trusting this with all I got, but man, how to wrap your head around all this will or may lead to R? interesting thread here.
cheesyt-- what do you mean by "how to wrap your head around all this will or may lead to R?" I don't understand.
JRuss-- I think your IC (very gently) encourages D for you, right? What do the MWD phone coaches say?
Boy, I'm guilty of the confused thing as I look for ideas everywhere and then get overwhelmed. Sandi helped put that into perspective for me... pick one thing and try it, if it works keep doing it and add a thing or two to the plan a bit at a time. Basically picking a direction or method and work out what works and repeat.
cheesyt-- what do you mean by "how to wrap your head around all this will or may lead to R?" I don't understand.
Forgump, it's hard for me to wrap my head around how being physically separated & going dark (which all feels opposite of being "close" with W) will or can lead to Reconciliation. I'm doing it because I somehow trust this, but when W and I were "friends" after S I felt closer than I do now. (cake eating business for her of course!) Now, today, I feel a billion miles away.
Cheesyt,
I know this feeling. The thing for me was yes I felt much closer after S when we were "friends" we were doing heaps together and got along great but I was a "friend" and that's all.
I have no interest in being her friend I want to be her H. So yes it feels like we are getting further away and in reality we are but its to make them miss us the only thing with this is a fear of losing them but when you get comfortable with the fact they are already gone as our W you will start to except it.
My W is like an alien now and yes we could easily be friends, in fact she is trying very hard to put me in he friend zone but I have no interest in that because at best it will last until one of us moves on and then that will be dead anyway.
I am going to copy and past a description of DBing detaching. Read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not so much about the physical pulling away as it is other things.
*****************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
_________________________
_________________________
This is a great list, but I think this item:
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
Is missing a not.
I think it's supposed to say
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
doodler -- my W is a bit of hybrid. Resolutely refuses to work on the R, go to MC, etc., but, at least to date, no OM (I've snooped, I'll admit it, embarrassingly).
She's just "done" and sees no way we could be rehabilitated but, for now, is willing to play house while our youngest completes 4th (just started) and 5th grade because we're zoned for a great public school but will in any event be putting him in private school for 6th and can live anywhere, in two houses, etc.
So I keep hoping the GALing and 180ing breaks down the Berlin Wall she's built up around her heart, but my continued difficulty detaching undermines the efficacy of those otherwise really good activities. They read as "because of" or "for her" instead of evidence of me moving on emotionally, without her.
Any advice that ever occurs to anyone following this thread will be gratefully appreciated.
Just curious--how do you know how your GALing and 180ing is being read? Can you give us some examples?
I am not a vet. My sitch is still way too new for me to know if my R is going to be a success story, and even if it is, H deserves a lot of the credit. Insert some more disclaimer text here. ;-)
That said, I'll share my experience in the hope that it is helpful.
When I first came to the board, I spent a day or two trying to "detach" as some people on the board seemed to see it. I treated H like a neighbor. Initiated no unnecessary conversations. If he initiated, I kept my responses to validation and contributed nothing of my own.
It backfired. Despite keeping my tone pleasant and my validations friendly, it was such a departure from the norm that H read it as cold and felt like he was being gamed.
Here is what I switched to that seemed to work better:
* No encouraging or initiating of R talks. If he initiated, I validated and tried to keep the convos as brief as possible.
* I worked really hard to realize that his mood was not all about me. He could be tired or grouchy or angry for reasons that had nothing to do with me. I should not be responsible, and I did not have to fix it.
* I stopped giving him friendly reminders about things like appointments. (He would say I stopped nagging him.) If he forgot something, I let him fix the issue all by himself. I validated that it sucked, but I treated him like I might a good friend. I empathized, but I didn't call people or log into accounts to fix.
* I stopped expecting him to make me feel better. If I felt bad or upset, I put on my big girl panties and dealt with the feelings myself. (Note: often he would realize I must be feeling upset about x--because he knows me well--and would reach out to console, and I accepted those, but I retained the primary responsibility for soothing/dealing with my own feelings of sadness or fear or worry.)
* If there was something I wanted to do (concert, hike, etc.), I made plans to go. I sometimes invited him, but if he didn't want to go, I went anyway. In the past, I might have stayed home, thinking, "I'd rather be with H." Now, I go. Don't get me wrong; I'm not out every night. But I don't force him into the role of controlling what I do by the choices he makes for him. If I haven't asked him, but he asks if he can come, I say yes.
* Especially in the early days, when I was struggling to not initiate R talks, I looked for things we could do together at home (watch a new show, play a game) that would allow us to spend pleasant time together and give us something to talk about besides the elephant in the room.
Since H was still at home and wasn't in an A, rather than making him feel the loss of leaving before he'd actually left, I wanted him to feel how good home could be, so he'd have a taste of what he would be giving up. But I wanted to do it in a healthy, emotionally detached (not cold! just two people being adult about owning their own emotions) relationship.
I think those are the key things I did with regards to detachment.
I also focused on identifying micro exchanges that kept coming up that introduced minor moments of discord into our R. Some of these had to do with me changing my response to H's humor. I worked to 180 these, and H has noticed and commented pleasantly on my new responses.
And I worked on worrying less and being braver, more willing to try new things--and to seek new things out. This is still very much a WIP, but I'm happy with the progress I've made.
I also made a point of allowing/encouraging as much physical contact as H seemed to want, but not engaging in contact that he seemed to pull away from. My logic here is that physical contact releases chemicals in the brain that help with bonding--so I didn't want to close off that method of reconnecting.
Just my two cents. No guarantee this is the right course for anyone else.
Thanks to all who posted overnight. Lots to read and think about.
ForGump -- my IC is primarily focused on my recovery from depression, not my marriage, per se. She is not egotistical at all, but I do think she thinks divorce is not as bad as I do, or that it poses as big of a potential threat to children as I do, probably because its her business and life's work to help people through those sitches, and she's had success doing it. She'd admit if pressed, though, that not everyone she's tried to help has been helped; not all outcomes were "good", etc., and, for me, that's the deal breaker. My family will only go through it once, and there's no guarantee one or both of my kids will sail through unaffected. Cue fear, anxiety, sleeplessness and pain in JRuss' stomach.
sandi2 -- great stuff. I think I'm starting to understand what detachment is, but it seems sort of a zen thing in terms of getting there; like it just happens. Is anyone aware of techniques, materials, maybe meditations that might help those of us in this boat to get from point A (not detached) to point B (detached)?
One thing I'm going to start doing, and its an outgrowth of my meditation practice, is everytime I notice myself trying to mind read, or feeling bad because my W's ennui is palpabale or she's sleeping on the far edge of the bed -- whatever -- I'm going to say to myself "Drop the Rope". I suspect I'll be doing it a lot, but maybe it will help.
I think it's supposed to say
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
I agree.
[quote=Rose888]Just curious--how do you know how your GALing and 180ing is being read? Can you give us some examples?
Rose888 -- thanks so much for your post. To answer your initial question, I don't have a lot to go on in terms of how the GAL/180s are being interpreted. At one point several weeks ago, I was working in the backyard, and she was on the phone on the porch talking to one of her friends about our sitch and didn't know I was within earshot. She told the friend in that she knew I'd been making "some tweaks", but the overall conversation was about how hard getting out would be, how she feared I'd start hoping again. So, as of then, the efforts were being minimized/not much appreciated, too little too late. Other times since that call she's told me of her own volition that she can see how much weight I've lost, that I look handsome, that she appreciates all of the helping out I now do around the house, etc. So I have no idea, really. There's no overt change in how she acts around or toward me, though,so I don't have any basis for believing there's been any material change in what's going on inside her.
There's so much good stuff in your post -- I'm going to study it closely today as work allows. Thanks again!
One thing I remind myself is that I can't expect the behavior of a few weeks or months to override the effects of decades. This is why the gift of time is such a gift. I just keep doing what I know I need to and don't try to put results on a timetable.
Rose888 -- I definitely remind myself often that, less than 2 months ago, my W was in touch with realtors and even went to look at a house into which she was going to move. That tends to get me back to reality and not so frantic to see "results".
I just need to string a whole mess of great days together and see where I get. If it's as a newly divorced (shudders) dad of two great kids, well, we'll figure that out.
JRuss-- just two thoughts, nothing revelatory.
Every time I read about you & your W... I just get the sense that there should be some hope there. Sorry if that takes you down the wrong path. But I just intuit that your W -- despite what she says and "almost" moving out -- she's got some feelings that makes her not ready to implode your family.
The other thing is -- I think you have to think hard about what MWD says about cheeseless tunnels. You've tried *all* kinds of stuff to DB. I think you have to think hard about what works. You have the luxury of trial & error ... many of us do not have that.
My $0.02's worth this morning.
FG -- I feel hopeful at times, too; then get set back when The Cold Front blows in, realize I'm not close to detached, and, well, I'm sure you've seen the thousand-word posts and related blatherings. I think hope is maybe ok if moderated, but expectation is no good, and I've been trying to figure out where one begins and the other ends. It's a work in progress.
Re your second point, understanding what does NOT work for me/us is easy: R talks really, really don't work. Trying to get her to go to lunch or on a date night, at least right now -- don't work. Showing her a scholarly article on pursuer/distancer dynamics, trust me, does not work.
But knowing what "works" is harder, because I don't get a lot of positive or immediate feedback. She's always been a shower more than a teller in terms of expressing happiness or affection, so that's not that unusual. I pretty much try to stick with stuff that doesn't immediately and angrily land me in the areas the things in the preceding paragraphs land me. 180s (of which GALing is one, actually -- I was really lazy and tunnel-visioned during my depressed period) make me happy and don't seem to put me in a worse position, so I do those: lots of chores around the house, try to listen really well (avoiding my tendency to want to "fix" and validate), exercise, eat right, have an outward zeal for life, etc.
You are on death row for 2 years. You can spend that time worried about the day of reckoning, or you can enjoy your ribeye, fries and a sundae each day (what I'd get) til the day comes.
Just mouthing off. Can't work w/ the fn guillotine over my head.
BTW, can you imagine what kind of a guy your W is fantasizing about once she gets rid of you? (I can, for my W, based on her EA). And what makes her happy, apart from H + kids? Is she doing those things? Is *she* GAL-ing to make herself happy? If she's not working on being healthy, she'll always blame you for making her unhappy.
Yeah, I've tortured myself with what "next guy" would be like. Honestly, he'd be a lot like me, at least the me that I've turned into. I think she has no faith any of my changes will be permanent so sees me as I was. Which, honestly, is probably fair given the time she had that me and the time I've been new me. I need to prove it's permanent change and not a sudden, ultimately doomed crash course that will disappear soon enough.
I also try to come at it from a different angle, though, one you and I (I think) have discussed previously. I try to draw up a mental list of all of the attributes "next guy" would have to have to represent an honest improvement over what she has currently (or at least will have if she can trust that the changes aren't just a short-term ploy). The list is really long. The problem with that is that, in her mind, as-of-yet-unidentified next guy is perfect. He has no flaws, because she hasn't met him yet, and he hasn't had to spend even a second under her pretty stringent judging system. So I'm competing with Mr. Perfect. Other times I think she just looks at it like a break from the life she doesn't particularly likes, at least when I would have the kids.
I think she has no faith any of my changes will be permanent so sees me as I was.
I try to draw up a mental list of all of the attributes "next guy" would have to have...
My W gets frustrated w/ me because I have no trouble entertaining various ideas about a situation, from different angles -- whereas for her, to entertain an idea is almost like committing to it and living the reality of it (poor impulse control, I told you.)
So, for me, considering "what the next guy is like" is kind of an exercise in trying to understand her frame of mind. What does she *think* she's missing from me. But I don't necessarily buy that that's what is *good* for her, and I don't necessarily buy that *that's* the guy I need to become.
I would tell you, JRuss, to be the guy who you want to be. Surprise yourself. Surprise her. Don't fit within her neurotic mental box. Be the guy that makes *you* happy. Maybe what she likes is *exactly* the guy who doesn't give a damn. The guy doesn't mind making mistakes, and just moves on to something else the next day.
As always, as I talk to you, I'm really talking to me...
I wanted to respond about what wakes her up. I can't remember which thread I posted to recently about my experience. My H had nothing to do with "my loss" when I was wayward. For me, it was like the timing had led me up to that exact point, and then.....WHAM! Reality of what my wardness was costing me.
It may not be just one specific thing that wakes up your WW (I am speaking to anyone who has a wayward spouse). It may be an accumulation of consequences, before it starts shaking her awake.
From the point of her recognizing her loss comes from her waywardness behavior......to the point of you seeing her change back into the person you married......may not happen in the same 24 hr period. I believe it largely depends on the individual stitch.
For example, I never physically S from my H. Thanks to some people on the DB board at that time who were giving me information I needed. I ended my A and decided to stay with my H. However, I did not apologize to him, and I was not remorseful. I was simply willing to stay. I was very depressed and went through several months of withdrawals from the A addiction. It took a long time before I felt the remorse and could go to my H with a humble heart for what I had done. You see, I stopped overtly rebelling, but I still harbored resentment & disrespect....plus, I had false pride.
I don't tell all of this to discourage you, although, it probably isn't something you were wanting to hear. It's my intentions to help you to understand that her waking up and you seeing your old wife back, takes time. The length of time varies from woman to woman. Your pain and her pain are on different time tables. Your work and her work are on different time tables.
When her fantasy implodes and reality slaps her smack in the face, it can give some serious wake up calls. As long as she sits home and basks in the benefits of the M...without any responsibilities, effort or work.....she is likely to continue feeding her fantasy and reacting in rebellious behavior. If she loses her home and the luxuries her H provided........and she has her children part time........and she has to work for standard wages........I'd say that could make a dent in her fantasy world. But that's just part of it. There are exceptions, but usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.
sandi2 -- "when her manipulation loses its power on him" is where I want and need to be. Right now, even a sigh or her looking off into space with an unhappy look is enough to get me muttering "DROP THE ROPE" over and over to myself, because I feel that lurch in my stomach, realize I'm still a strung out addict needing my fix. Yuck.
And what makes her happy, apart from H + kids? Is she doing those things? Is *she* GAL-ing to make herself happy? If she's not working on being healthy, she'll always blame you for making her unhappy.
This speaks to me, I've never really thought about it that way. W said she left because she was unhappy, so I've wanted to see her down in the dumps if you can follow my logic.
She's going to counseling to work on herself, going to church, going to the gym again, expressing herself in ways she felt she couldn't do in the M (new tats, hair coloring, etc), cutting down on drinking and so on. However, she only sees S on Sat along with about an hour after school. She is picking him up tomorrow morning and keeping him until Sunday PM this week, but that's only because she had to work tonight. I don't feel like the Mom in her has fully come back yet, and it is a huge turnoff for me.
There are exceptions, but usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.
Sandi2 thank you for this!!!! This speaks to me. As my W's feelings still affect me. I feel I can take the "Bait" especially when W mentions she's sick.
-working on detachment and walking in a different direction.
Usually, it is the man, himself, that creates the biggest loss for her. Know how? When he walks in the other direction. When her manipulation loses its power on him. When she cannot affect his feelings. You may think that it doesn't matter to her. If so, then I suggest it's b/c she knows she still has you if/when she decides to want you.
This sounds very true in many cases. And I do wish very much that this is true in my case.
But, I believe that w/ my W ... she won't feel the loss until she's fully moved on to a life with a series of other men -- i.e., probably several years into the future -- when she realizes that our M wasn't as bad as she thought, that I wasn't such a bad partner as she thought ... and at that point the loss won't feel all that acute for her because it's so far in the past, and it will be far too late for her to come back to the M.
Bleak, but that's what I believe. This belief doesn't make me feel more clingy to her -- in fact, it motivates me to move on.
I feel hopeful at times, too; then get set back when The Cold Front blows in, realize I'm not close to detached, and, well,
So, you base whether or not to feel hopeful upon your W's warmth/coldness? I think many LBH'S probably do. Just like you decide if something works......based on positive feedback. Sounds logical, right? The only problem is....if you have a wayward W....you could feel completely hopeless watching her actions from day to day as some type of arrow pointing to "working" or "not working". Although the above quote came from JRuss, I am speaking to you who have been posting about this subject.
If you have a WW, things will probably get worse before getting better. Why? Well first of all, you cannot
nice her back......and I think that's what you want to do. That is what you have always done to keep the relationship bearable. And here's another shocker. Have you ever been in a check out line at a store and looking at the magazine covers, or maybe you've been waiting in a doctor's office and flipping through magazines? There are a lot of short articles that are supposingly giving techniques that are known for having a happier, closer, sexier, or whatever kind of MR. If the MR wasn't in crisis, a person might be able to use those bubble gum techniques. However, by the time a person finds their way to the board.....their MR is in
crisis. If she has developed a wayward mindset, then she will not respect your "good ole boy" nice-guy approach. And, a H who says they don't believe their W is wayward b/c he has seen no evidence of an A? And the H who wants to take all the blame for her behavior? And the H who starts doing everything he can.....so she doesn't have to? He's a H who is wearing blinders. He is trying to convince himself that
he is the problem. That if he can "prove" how much he loves her, it will change her mind about wanting out of the M.
The H could have contributed to the relationship breaking down, but once she drops the bomb, he needs a
solid plan of action. Yes, he needs to search himself and see where he needs to make personal improvements to be a better man.........however, if he has the mindset that she will reward his efforts in a sweet, warm, loving response.........he will risk high disappointment and his "hope" could struggle to hang in there. If he has a WW, there will realistically be one of, at least, three responses from her. 1) she recognizes his changes but....... it's too little, too late; 2) she's angry that he waited till she was done; 3) she sees it as a gimmick to win her back.
When a W is wayward, she does not
care about the MR. She is not interested in seeing what a terrific H you can be now. She doesn't want you trying to show her how great things could be if she would give it another chance. I believe the mindset of the WW is what you can't wrap around your brain. You won't accept that your efforts in showing her how hard you are trying to be a better H isn't working. Then, your hopes fade and you start wondering if it's time to throw in the towel.
Don't throw in the towel yet. Just change your mindset. Stop watching her and measuring your efforts on her feedback. When you change your point of view, you will not be hanging onto every little word & act from her.
A lot of H's on the board have the nice guy syndrome. Some of the H's are very proud of it. However, one of the biggest problems with the NG syndrome is his passivity. He wants to nice his WW back, and he doesn't want to toughen up. He wants nothing to do with a plan that would require him to operate outside his comfort zone. Therefore, he makes excuses for his W's wayward behavior.......and excuses for his passive-aggressive behavior.
The WW does not respect her passive H. She will manipulate and bully him. So, if he should decide what he's doing isn't working.....I suggest the he develops a plan of action, and have his focus on respect. Nothing he does will help his MR if his W does not respect him.
You newcomers are looking at the W's response. If it's good, then you are happy and call it "progress". If her response is not good, you are down and call it a "setback". Can't you see how you are riding a roller coaster that doesn't stop? Can't you see that you will not pull her out of her wayward mindset by continuing to play the passive good ole boy? She will never desire you, if she doesn't respect you.
I am not telling you to be a bad man. I am not telling you to mistreat her. I am telling you that your passive, nice-guy behavior does not work on a WW.
Sandi- can you speak to the balance of being a nice guy and being cold? I'm struggling with this right now.
Now, don't hold me up as some success story. Obviously I'm not, but for every zig and zag I make I'm making progress.
Don't make your W your focus. Make you your focus. Whether it's things you want to work on to become a better man, being the best Daddy you can be, getting out and making new friends or spending time with those you simply didn't have time for, trying something new....whatever it is, put your focus on those things. The more she sees you don't need her to be happy, the more she sees you and wonders about you.
When she calls you or texts you, by rule don't answer the first ring nor text right back. Don't be available. You don't need her, you're busy! Stand up for yourself, don't let her walk all over you. Sure it won't happen overnight, but little by little you'll gain respect back. Be firm but calm and let her know you don't accept the way she's speaking to you, and if it persists she can (say goodbye to your child and to) please leave.
It's not easy. Do your best to do YOUR thing and not focus on her. Live your life without her, and show her that. You, like me, probably have to fake it in the beginning. Eventually, you'll feel it and you won't have to fake anymore. Setbacks? Sure! Don't beat yourself up over them, but bring your venting, confusion, tears, etc HERE because you'll get the help you need. It's certainly helped for me, or else I WOULD have taken numerous steps backwards!!
This is a start of what has helped me.
Jug, being a nice guy basically means always being there when needed even if you're not being treated the same. Cold sort of means indifferent, but you're not indifferent you're just busy!
Sandi2 -- thanks for stopping by and for your post.
I think where I and several other LBS struggle is that what you're advocating in a lot of ways runs head on -- and even contradicts -- DB.
Some of us were told by WAW/WW we were poor listeners. What's the 180 for that? Teach ourselves to listen, then actually listen when she wants to talk about something, validate, etc. But then we hear that we're just being Mr. Nice Guy baking and serving all the cake she can eat. I personally was told I "didn't support" my W. I'm still not sure what the $%^& she was talking about, but moving away, remaining aloof -- all of that flies in the face of anything that might be termed a 180 in DB. I was also told I didn't do enough around the house and domestically -- but I'm Mr. Nice Guy if I vacuum or straighten or pick up groceries or decide to cook one night.
I know I struggle with this and suspect a few others posting here do, too.
Paradigmatic weekend for me. Saturday AM starts off with W-initiated LM, so that was pretty great, although confusing. Get up, have some coffee, W joins me on the porch before the kids get up, and W mentions that she's going to go IC this week. I'm thinking, hmmm, that could be positive. I've felt all along that she has certain fundamental internal problems and issues that cause her to look at me and scapegoat our relationship as the reason for those things, and maybe she could start working through it all and start .
But then she tells me who the IC is, and she reminds me that it's the IC her $%#& echo chamber validator friend used "when she was going through her divorce".
So, that's great. Go spend our money getting a more expensive version of your validating $%&* friends and emerge on the other side strong enough to do what's best for you. Wonderful.
JRuss,
I don't think I've ever seen the word "paradigmatic" before. I had to look that one up.
Your post gave me a great idea. Remember the auto-translator on Star Trek? We LBSs need an auto-validator that validates everything a WS says. It could have settings for ethnicity and intonation; "Yo b*tch you gots the booty thang goin' on..."
Get your DB Auto-Validator today with four easy payments of just $29.95.
JRuss, can you remind me--your wife works full-time, right? Is she an involved mom? (I don't mean a super, Pinterest mom, but someone who gets the kids where they need to be, reads to them, cooks for them, talks to them about their day, etc.) Are her GAL activities in reasonable balance for a working mom?
Are you carrying your weight around the house, truly? (This time of year, it's interesting to think about things like this--Do you have to ask your wife what the kids' schedule is for the day or week? Who figures out what new clothes still fit, takes them shopping for new stuff, and gets rid of the old? Who fills out all those blasted forms that the school sends? Who makes sure that kiddo remembers pajama day or takes the classroom snack on the right day?)
I might be remembering details wrong, but I don't have the impression your wife has turned into a selfish wild child. Maybe I'm wrong.
JRuss, can you remind me--your wife works full-time, right? Is she an involved mom? (I don't mean a super, Pinterest mom, but someone who gets the kids where they need to be, reads to them, cooks for them, talks to them about their day, etc.) Are her GAL activities in reasonable balance for a working mom?
Hi Rose. Yes, my W works full time. This is relatively recent, as in about the last 14 months. For the prior 8-9 years, she worked, but was underemployed (at least intellectually) so she could have more time with the children. She became deeply unhappy with this, tried to get a better job, but it took a long time due to the economy and inertia, and she got mad at me for not supporting her. With the four of us already living a stressful life, I was worried about the impact on all of us if she added 10-15 hours of additional work to her life. I eventually woke up, and I've been very supportive for the last 2 years or so as she first found the job, and, since, as she's tried to claw her way into a position she can grow with.
She is anything but a Pintarest mom, but she is actively engaged in their lives, cooks for them, talks to them about their problems. Yes to all of that. Her main GAL is running (she's really fast, has qualified for Boston twice, etc.) and doing things with girlfriends. She is also a huge reader.
Are you carrying your weight around the house, truly? (This time of year, it's interesting to think about things like this--Do you have to ask your wife what the kids' schedule is for the day or week? Who figures out what new clothes still fit, takes them shopping for new stuff, and gets rid of the old? Who fills out all those blasted forms that the school sends? Who makes sure that kiddo remembers pajama day or takes the classroom snack on the right day?)
I did not always carry my weight. This was a huge source of anger and resentment for my W. I've worked for the last two+ years to be much more weight-bearing, and I can say that, right now, I'm doing at least as much as my W, if not a little more. She tends to have a better grasp on a lot of the details that you mention, so she identifies the need for PJs, say, but I end up doing most of the legwork in terms of going out and getting what needs to be gotten. She has told me that she no longer thinks I don't pull my weight, but it hasn't helped rekindle the attraction she feels like she needs to have.
I might be remembering details wrong, but I don't have the impression your wife has turned into a selfish wild child. Maybe I'm wrong.
No, she's not a wild child. She just quit on our marriage, really. She feels badly about it, but I've never been able to make any real headway on the core issue (she doesn't see me "that" way any more), despite taking all of her issues (at least that she told me about) and working on them all as hard as I know how. While I try to regain attractive qualities, she battles only with whether to stick it out in an unhappy life or forging out on her own at some future time when she thinks the kids will be ok with it.
LOL, doodler. I'd like to use a Star Trek phaser (set to Stun!) on her at times, too.
Thanks for the extra details.
I don't think vacuuming or cooking in this situation is being Mr. Nice Guy. I think it's being an adult and pulling your weight. It sounds like you have stepped it up in this area, so I'd keep that up.
Likewise, I'd listen and validate when she shares. As you point out, this is a 180 for you. But don't pursue. Let her initiate.
What are you doing to GAL and to be responsible for your own happiness? The more you work on that, the more unavailable you will seem, without needing to be cold or dodging your responsibilities. It will probably feel like acting at first, but the more you do it, the more you will find moments when you are fully into that and forget about her. Someone who is passionate about interests and internally happy and confident is very attractive. Not to mention a lot happier person to be!
Thanks for the extra details.
I don't think vacuuming or cooking in this situation is being Mr. Nice Guy. I think it's being an adult and pulling your weight. It sounds like you have stepped it up in this area, so I'd keep that up.
JR, I gave this exact question a ton of thought when I was spending 2 hrs this weekend in the 100 degree heat doing yard work. I realized that I'm not doing it for my W, though she may perceive that, and that I'm doing it bc I realize it's my responsibility that I'd been shirking. I think so long as you are not doing it to get "brownie" points with the W, then you are on the right path.
I love how Rose put it as "being an adult and pulling your weight" and I 100% agree on keeping it up. Thanks Rose!
What are you doing to GAL and to be responsible for your own happiness? The more you work on that, the more unavailable you will seem, without needing to be cold or dodging your responsibilities. It will probably feel like acting at first, but the more you do it, the more you will find moments when you are fully into that and forget about her. Someone who is passionate about interests and internally happy and confident is very attractive. Not to mention a lot happier person to be!
My main GAL are getting/staying fit, volunteering (hospital and Habitat for Humanity), reading again (had really stopped when my depression stepped up its game), trying to connect more with friends (slow going, but making some progress) and getting the kids out of the house and doing things. I am really enjoying this but am also guilty of checking over my shoulder to see if she's noticed. Unavailability is a really hard thing to communicate when you sleep 2" from someone!
Really struggling with this new development of her getting an IC who has a track record helping women navigate Ds and "other major life events". How does one overcome that? It's like validation squared, when you pay for it, and there's a diploma on the wall telling you its ok to walk away from a 20+ year relationship.
Is there a tactic here I should be using?
My opinion is that any "tactic" that you use on her would likely backfire. In order for therapy to be effective, a person has to be ready and willing to seek-out help and do the work necessary to get better.
I think a good tactic is for you to be the best person you can possibly be and allow that to guide her. You know, kinda-sorta that lighthouse thing.
She wasn't noticing the lighthouse before. My fear is that she's just hired a monster strobe light to further drown me out.
I like your GAL activities. Are any of them new, or are you trying new things with the kids? I've found that there is an energy from doing new things and pushing past your previous limits that adds an extra energy to life.
And yeah, you have to stop looking over your shoulder to see if she's noticing. Focus on you and your kids. The watched pot never boils and all that.
How long have you been the lighthouse? Have you really been the lighthouse? Remember, the lighthouse doesn't watch the boats. ;-)
True, but the lighthouse keeper does.
Actually no - the lighthouse keeper's duty is towards the light (if you want a really interesting read - the Lighthouse Stevensons - about the Scottish family that built many of the lights around the UK will bore the pants of everyone except a WW)
One thing I read a while ago that I quite liked is "you're the lighthouse, not the tugboat". Keep in mind you "both" are standing in a fog.
I understand where "the duty" lies, but there isn't a lighthouse keeper alive who doesn't peek at the boats and make sure they aren't running aground, especially if its stormy.
I'm getting pretty f-ing tired of "my duty", frankly. Her "duty" was to try to work on our marriage, not act as judge and executioner before I ever got the courtesy of knowing anything about it.
"Is there a tactic here I should be using?"
So you're trying to figure out what way you should be manipulating her?
MrBond -- I'm trying to figure out what I can best do in the face of my W going to a shrink in town who has a reputation of helping women navigate the difficulties of divorce. Everything I've done to date -- most of it DB approved, albeit with setbacks -- has gotten me exactly here. I get that DBing goes on as long as I can keep making myself fight this fight, I get that I need to try to continue to be "The Lighthouse", but I'm wondering if there's anything else, like something [b]specific[b], I could do. My W has essentially hired a very expensive Validator who makes her money "supporting" women as the divorce their husbands. This is a big threat to me and my children. If you have anything helpful to add, please do, and I thank you in advance.
Sorry -- I hope that last sentence didn't come across as rude.
JRuss - it probably goes completely against everything in your heart but what if you "gave in"? She's had a pretty easy ride on your back for a while.
If she wants a D then there realistically is no reason why she can't move out this afternoon. You've got a good handle on the kids. What you might not have though is a handle on your rights. It worked for me and it sounds like it worked for some other people here but make sure you know your rights otherwise she and that fancy new IC will steam-roll right over you. In my case my W had her appt with a cheap L and after almost a month I've heard nothing.
Now you and I both know that going to the level of putting her stuff on the lawn isn't in the cards for you. One of the things that many of us struggle with is that we really can't "control" our spouse no matter how much we want to. They are adults with rights themselves and they can just tell us to go to h@ll if they don't like what we say. So - you've got a run-away nanny goat (sorry - goat theme today) who is headed for the berry patch - what would you do in that case? Troll? Buckshot? Move the berries onto a flatbed truck and drive away?
She could move out, and almost did at the end of June. I'd be better off on a strictly personal/healing level, right now, if she had, but I'm still stuck on not wanting to do anything my children would construe as Dad kicking Mom out, or even doing anything to facilitate it, frankly. She's going to do what she's going to do, and the best I feel like I can hope for is that my kids one day understand I stood for the marriage and the four of us.
My desire and urge is to fight; to do something affirmatively to reverse the momentum of how the R is going (which seems against me at the moment). That's the hardest thing for me: trusting that DBing maximizes (but doesn't guarantee) the chances of some sort of turnaround. A lot of it seems so passive and not action-oriented, although I understand that these are major changes I'm making for me. I find it quite hard to know that the marriage clock keeps ticking, she's out doing things to make D happen, and I'm not doing much except staying the course, which got me exactly here, where I don't want to be.
JRuss, reading your posts always makes me think, for the obvious reason that we struggle w/ many similar issues.
(a) Being poor listeners -- I'm very guilty of this. My mind has a tendency to multi-task, which is to say it flashes back & forth over to other things on my mind as my W talks. I have made a concerted effort to look straight into her eyes when she talks, and pay 100% attention, and validate.
(b) Doing enough around the house -- you mention "decide to cook one night." One night is not enough! I don't know how much you do around the house, but I suggest you completely geek out on this, and do exactly 50%, no more, no less. Cook 3-4 nights a week. Not in a subservient, motherly way, but as someone taking charge. Just declare to your W, "I'm going to cook coq-au-vin tonight." Do 1/2 of the house cleaning. Do 1/2 of the laundry. Etc. Once you start doing 1/2, don't be afraid to leave the other 1/2 to your W.
(c) Sex -- dude you are ***so*** fricken lucky in that department. At least from my myopic point of view. I often find myself wishing, "just one more time...." Anyhow, I think this is where "don't believe 100% of what she says, and 50% of what she does." That is, man, if she's DOING it with you, there is *something* there. No person is such a robot that she'd do it repeatedly w/o some subconscious, animal connection there. This by itself tells me you have a chance. It might be one in ten thousand, but it's a chance. Your situation is not D.O.A. Keep the paddles handy and greased up.
(d) The IC echo chamber -- before you lose hope, maybe you ought to get a bit more info on this IC. Look at her website, if any. Ask your IC about what reputation she has. But also keep in mind that if she's an echo chamber ... the primary source of ideas will be your W. So if your W still has any positive feelings about you, then her IC will echo that too. Also, if your W really does have some issues to work through, and if that IC is worth the piece of paper her license is printed on, she may help your W work through some conflicting issues in her head. You write that this IC has a "track record". Is that a datapoint of 1?
(e) Sandi2's point of "solid plan of action" -- I think this is very appropriate for your case, precisely because it's SO DAMN HARD to detach & GAL when your in-house. I think you need to write down a list of exactly what you're going to do, and what you're not going to do in/around the house on a regular basis. And I don't mean chores necessarily. I would include how you would communicate w/ your W, how you would express affection (if any, at least for the sake of the kids), etc. My M.O. has been to be a warm, friendly housemate, who, when engaged or asked, is very warm and kind, but generally does not behave like he's trying to coordinate his goals and interests w/ hers. Kind of harks me back to grad school days living w/ other grad students.
I get the sense though, JRuss, that, understandably, all your DB-ing still is anchored to the hope of getting your W to wake up. I think true/best DB-ing is anchored to yourself, to moving on w/o your W. It's a damn paradox.
Just thinking aloud here -- and as always, what I wrote above is really me talking to myself. I am sorry to hear about the mini-bomb drop (the echo chamber IC). I might've talked a big game here, but I live in fear of mini-bomb drops every day, and I take a big breath before I open my email every time, telling myself to strap on a pair....
JRuss, reading your posts always makes me think, for the obvious reason that we struggle w/ many similar issues.
(a) Being poor listeners -- I'm very guilty of this. My mind has a tendency to multi-task, which is to say it flashes back & forth over to other things on my mind as my W talks. I have made a concerted effort to look straight into her eyes when she talks, and pay 100% attention, and validate.
THis has probably been what I've been working on the longest -- 2+ years, long, long before I knew anything about DB. With the help of a lot of IC, I taught myself to meditate, which really helped me focus and be "in the moment", which is what you really where you need to be if you're going to listen worth a crap. I always defaulted into trying to "fix" whatever problem she was expressing, because that felt like what you're supposed to do for loved ones who are struggling, but I learned that this made her feel minimized. I'm a good listener now. I don't know that she's noticed. I'm not going back to my old way regardless of how this shakes out. I came (late) to realize it is a gift people are giving you by telling you about something that matters to them. I'm already trying to teach my son and love the fact that he's 3.5 decades ahead of me on the learning curve.
(b) Doing enough around the house -- you mention "decide to cook one night." One night is not enough! I don't know how much you do around the house, but I suggest you completely geek out on this, and do exactly 50%, no more, no less. Cook 3-4 nights a week. Not in a subservient, motherly way, but as someone taking charge. Just declare to your W, "I'm going to cook coq-au-vin tonight." Do 1/2 of the house cleaning. Do 1/2 of the laundry. Etc. Once you start doing 1/2, don't be afraid to leave the other 1/2 to your W.
This one is tougher. She loves to cook, even during the week. We've always had a loose arrangement that the one who cooks doesn't have to clean, and she hates cleaning, so I gravitate towards that. She's also a better cook than I am (I'm getting better) and, especially, can cook faster than I can, which matters given kids' schedules and the like during the week. I've tried to do the cooking and the cleanup at times, but she seems to see through this (since it upsets the ancient arrangement) as me trying to be too sweet.
(c) Sex -- dude you are ***so*** fricken lucky in that department. At least from my myopic point of view. I often find myself wishing, "just one more time...." Anyhow, I think this is where "don't believe 100% of what she says, and 50% of what she does." That is, man, if she's DOING it with you, there is *something* there. No person is such a robot that she'd do it repeatedly w/o some subconscious, animal connection there. This by itself tells me you have a chance. It might be one in ten thousand, but it's a chance. Your situation is not D.O.A. Keep the paddles handy and greased up.
I know I'm lucky. I feel a lot of guilt even complaining given what so many here are going through. I'm there when it happens, of course, and I know she gets across the finish line every time. Maybe she's really good at compartmentalizing (or maybe thinking of someone else during? Ooof), but I'd never be able to have sex with someone I was truly not attracted to. Men are biologically and anatomically different, of course, and men need to start in the mood for things to go anywhere, but you know what I mean? I'm bracing myself for new IC to tell her to cut this out, that it gives me "false hope", etc.
(d) The IC echo chamber -- before you lose hope, maybe you ought to get a bit more info on this IC. Look at her website, if any. Ask your IC about what reputation she has. But also keep in mind that if she's an echo chamber ... the primary source of ideas will be your W. So if your W still has any positive feelings about you, then her IC will echo that too. Also, if your W really does have some issues to work through, and if that IC is worth the piece of paper her license is printed on, she may help your W work through some conflicting issues in her head. You write that this IC has a "track record". Is that a datapoint of 1?
It would be great if this IC saw through things a bit, or even just played Devil's Advocate a bit before launching into "here's how we're going to get you to Happily Divorced Land". I've seen her website, and she does have dog whistle language there about "helping women navigate painful life changes" or some such. I also know that this is a referral from my W's friend who divorced about two years ago. More than pure fear of the IC, I think the worst part for me is the idea that this is a pretty good indicator of where my W is mentally/emotionally. I toy with the idea that she's maybe feeling her resolve dip a bit and needs to buy some validation, but then I start down roads that aren't helpful right now.
(e) Sandi2's point of "solid plan of action" -- I think this is very appropriate for your case, precisely because it's SO DAMN HARD to detach & GAL when your in-house. I think you need to write down a list of exactly what you're going to do, and what you're not going to do in/around the house on a regular basis. And I don't mean chores necessarily. I would include how you would communicate w/ your W, how you would express affection (if any, at least for the sake of the kids), etc. My M.O. has been to be a warm, friendly housemate, who, when engaged or asked, is very warm and kind, but generally does not behave like he's trying to coordinate his goals and interests w/ hers. Kind of harks me back to grad school days living w/ other grad students.
I get the sense though, JRuss, that, understandably, all your DB-ing still is anchored to the hope of getting your W to wake up. I think true/best DB-ing is anchored to yourself, to moving on w/o your W. It's a damn paradox.
This is definitely my weak link. I like your idea regarding a list. It will hold me accountable, which I need.
Just thinking aloud here -- and as always, what I wrote above is really me talking to myself. I am sorry to hear about the mini-bomb drop (the echo chamber IC). I might've talked a big game here, but I live in fear of mini-bomb drops every day, and I take a big breath before I open my email every time, telling myself to strap on a pair....
You're a good man, ForGump. I really appreciate the many, many times you've posted in my thread. We are kindred sprits, I think -- really wish I could buy you a beer or three!
JRuss - the only thing I might add to what ForGump had to say is that instead of 50% which is room-mate territory, go for 100%. You may have to anyway. If she asks - then tell her that. I know that my W certainly gave me odd looks whenever I did perhaps (mind reading!) thinking that "hey - this is real".
I'm not sure how it affected my W when I was so much better at taking care of the housekeeping than she was. I think she probably thought it was a "kissing up" action on my part because she would leave me a thank-you note or go out of her way to say how nice it looked.
Oh - and make sure that your coq-a-vin is better than her's. Me - I still struggle with Minute Rice.
Thanks AndrewP -- I'm at least 50% these days, probably up around 58.7% if we were to get actuarial. She still does a ton, and we both collapse exhausted at the end of the day when the kids are in bed. She told me once relatively recently that she no longer thinks I don't pull my weight, which felt great to hear. I knew I'd addressed this particular complaint and had been feeling good about being more actively involved for some time, but it was nice to hear.
Neither one of us likes coq-a-vin, weirdly enough, but I have a few dishes I can hammer into submission.
" I'm trying to figure out what I can best do in the face of my W going to a shrink in town who has a reputation of helping women navigate the difficulties of divorce."
That's the thing. You can't come up with a plan of action because you really don't know how she's going to react. What you're doing is wasting energy essentially "guessing" as to what she will do. And if there's one thing you and everyone here should know by now is that the WAS is VERY UNPREDICTABLE.
Or to put it another way, there's no sense in making sense of nonsense.
"I get that DBing goes on as long as I can keep making myself fight this fight, I get that I need to try to continue to be "The Lighthouse", but I'm wondering if there's anything else, like something [b]specific[b], I could do."
Continue to do the things that get a positive response, but don't do things just to get a positive response. If it benefits you, go ahead and do it. You need to stop seeing this as a "fight". There is no winner or loser. And nothing is black and white. There are alot of gray areas that you are going to have to navigate through.
"My W has essentially hired a very expensive Validator who makes her money "supporting" women as the divorce their husbands."
So? You can't stop that from happening and it's really none of your business what your W does. She has a right to do what she feels is best for her as much as you do. Control only the things that are in your control. Leave crazy be and instead of just being the lighthouse, be the rock for your kids.
Hey if the arrangement is that she cooks and you clean ... no problem. IMHO that's 50-50%. I don't think you ought to aim for 100% or even 58.7%. Don't give her cake, don't kiss ass. You want to communicate that this is about you being the H you want to be (hopefully w/o having to explicitly say so), not you kissing her ass to make her want to stay.
And it's great that she acknowledged that you pull your weight in the house! It's not everything, but I *sure* it counts for something in her mind.
Re: her going to IC ... to me it's strong evidence that your W hasn't made up her mind, and that she's not sure exactly what she wants, and she's feeling mixed up. She needs the IC's help to sort out what she wants. So you can look at it as glass half-empty but I see it as half-full, at least relative to her earlier declaration that she's giving the M exactly 2 years. She's got enough confused thoughts and feelings on her mind to think that her time & money is worth it.
Five years from now, when the war-dead have been counted, we can convene a DB veterans convention in some hub city ... maybe ATL, ORD, DFW ...
The 58.7% is a function of her taking a harder job after playing second fiddle for me for the preceding 10 years. Stepping up my game was a 180 on my part to be supportive of her career; she has cited my apathy/worry I expressed when she first raised the topic of changing jobs about what that would do for the family stress-wise as a big injury to her. The funny this is that the more I take on, the happier I feel. More tired, certainly, but not always internalizing these feelings that I'm not pulling my weight and feeling bad about myself.
Re the IC, I think she feels a lot of guilt over what she wants to do to the marriage/family and is looking for help working through it and not feeling guilty. My point, if asked, would be that she's feeling guilt because she knows she hasn't done anything to try to save or even work on the marriage -- at least not outside of the space between her own ears. In other words, your conscience is telling you something for a reason!
I'm up for that convention for sure. Maybe we will all be able to bring new spouses or girlfriends if we end up among the "war-dead".
Continue to do the things that get a positive response, but don't do things just to get a positive response. If it benefits you, go ahead and do it. You need to stop seeing this as a "fight". There is no winner or loser. And nothing is black and white. There are alot of gray areas that you are going to have to navigate through.
I get what you're saying intellectually. The urge to view it as a fight, as in I'm fighting to save something (the marriage, my children's' lives with two parents in the home) is strong, but I'll work on that.
"My W has essentially hired a very expensive Validator who makes her money "supporting" women as the divorce their husbands."
So? You can't stop that from happening and it's really none of your business what your W does. She has a right to do what she feels is best for her as much as you do. Control only the things that are in your control. Leave crazy be and instead of just being the lighthouse, be the rock for your kids.
It irritates me that community assets might be getting spent to help blow up that community, but I realize this is a pretty immature and not productive line of thought. I really appreciate you weighing in -- you seem like you've figured a lot of this out.
Five years from now, when the war-dead have been counted, we can convene a DB veterans convention in some hub city ... maybe ATL, ORD, DFW ...
If we all come to my village WW's store has great cookies and pie. Or we could go the bake shop. There's a brewery down the street too. (no wonder he doesn't want to move everyone now says ....)
My desire and urge is to fight; to do something affirmatively to reverse the momentum of how the R is going (which seems against me at the moment). That's the hardest thing for me: trusting that DBing maximizes (but doesn't guarantee) the chances of some sort of turnaround. A lot of it seems so passive and not action-oriented
JRuss - I'm going to paste in something from my own thread earlier that you've probably already read. It really resonated to me and helps. I'll probably re-read this until the pixels wear out on the screen.
Yes. I can see that clearly. It took me an incredibly long time to come to the realization that this wasnt a puzzle that could be solved. There isnt a string of if/then sequences that you can plug into an equation solver and come out with a neat and tidy result. If 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then R (it will take 7 months) -or- if 5 then 6 then 7 then 8 then D (it will take 4 months). It just doesnt work that way. Here's what you can control - the things you do today, the things you do this week. No - you cant plan everything that will happen for the next year, and I can see how that would be frustrating for a guy like you. But if you tighten your focus, you are in complete control of what happens.
So, think of it like this - instead of saying, "if R doesnt happen by Christmas, Im going to file for D", think "am I going to file for divorce this week?" As soon as the answer to that question is "yes", you can proceed.
And then if all else fails - one of my favourites
“Fear not, till Birnam wood
Do come to Dunsinane”; and now a wood
Comes toward Dunsinane.—Arm, arm, and out!—
If this which he avouches does appear,
There is nor flying hence nor tarrying here.
I 'gin to be aweary of the sun,
And wish th' estate o' th' world were now undone.—
Ring the alarum-bell!—Blow, wind! Come, wrack!
At least we’ll die with harness on our back
Thanks, AndrewP -- love the Bard!
Just curious, JRuss ... when the kids are not in the room, what is the vibe like? What pleasantries are exchanged and conversations made? Do you guys greet each other, "Good morning?" Do you still call each other by nicknames (e.g., "honey")? She gives you a peck on the cheek when she leaves for work. Do you reciprocate somehow? A hand on the shoulder, a light pat on the arse? OK, kidding about the last one. But what do all these tokens of affection mean in terms of detaching?
It all depends on the day. Sometimes she'll use an old nickname. Most times not. A lot of the times she goes somewhere in the house where she's sure to be away from me. Other times she seems able to tolerate, say, our both reading in the MBR before bed or watching TV (pretty far apart) on the couch. The cheek pecks before work are usually when I'm between her and the door and it would be more awkward than its worth to rush by or the kids are there.
Last night was a bad one. She had her first counseling session,and I asked too many questions. This after telling myself to avoid asking any. Horrible performance my JRuss when the chips were down. She shut down like I was prying, which I was. Very cold shoulder all night, her sleeping on the far edge of the MBR.
Things really feel like they're moving to a new, colder, less salvageable place.
Oh man JRuss! Yep, you screwed up. But, I bet if you GAL & unhitch, some warm winds will blow again.
About the "usual vibe" between you two ... it sounds pretty frigid over there, and I think my latitude (climate-wise) is a few degrees to the north.
Anyway, I think there's opportunity there for you to do some 180 and unhitch:
- Be chipper around the house (w/o over-doing it),
- When you two are both hanging in the livingroom or MBR, sometimes just get up and leave and go do something else, and
- Don't be in the path for a peck in the morning, just go do something else.
Ideally, all this just comes from your core, feeling like you can be happy and are being happy to do your own thing. As opposed to trying to fake it.
Just got back from IC and feeling better. Not feeling better at all about salvaging my marriage, but about being able to handle it when it does end. Feeling and working through some significant anger at W, which is a bit new. Hearing from my IC that that represents progress in terms of overall healing and moving on helped me feel better, because I've really been struggling with feeling like this is just my permanent lot in life. No idea how any of this plays into DB.
ForGump -- great thoughts as always. Going to take the kids to the neighborhood ice cream parlor after dinner. It will be fun and get me out of the house and not always checking her mood.
Just want to say that if there is a hell, and I sort of hope there is, that there ought to be a special wing for The Echo Chamber Enablers, who presume to "advise" WWs, push them along, crowd out any dissenting views ALL WITHOUT KNOWING THE SITUATION FULLY AND WITHOUT EVEN THE HUSBAND ALL THAT WELL. What kind of a pathetic soul inserts themselves into someone else's marriage like that? There can't be anything less knowable than someone else's marriage -- and yet they think they have definitive things to say about it? WTF?
I feel like I can DB and GAL and 180 my head off, but none of it will be noticed at all while these harpies pick at the bones of our marriage. I just feel like I'm going to lose my mind sometimes, or that it's already lost.
Should be WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING THE HUSBAND ALL THAT WELL. Was too busy "shouting" to pay attention to what I was writing.
JRuss,
I tend to agree with you! I've felt the same way myself. On the other hand, before any of this happened to me, if one of my sisters had come to me complaining about their husband, I wouldn't have questioned the validity of their claims. Now, I'd be more aware that their are two sides to the story.
One of my neighbors, an atrocious British fellow (he's a wonderful man), knows me well and saw through the WW's bullsh*t. But, he and his wife had previous marriages and have been through divorce. Many of the people my WW talks to do not know me well. For all they know, I truly am a quiet and introverted narcissistic psychopath serial killer. I mean, it makes a lot of sense; sarcastic humor and gardening are dead giveaways (the dead bodies are in the garden).