Previous threads
Thread 1 - Fresh Meat
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678621&page=1Thread 2 - Twisting in the Wind
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2691981&page=1Thread 3 - Confessions of a failed mind reader
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2696636&page=1Wow - 4th thread. For those who have followed me here thank you so much.
A brief "status" for those for whom this is their first view into my sitch. The timelines are in my signature below so there's really no need to repeat that. If you really want the history feel free to browse my previous threads but there's a lot of rambling nonsense and over-analyzing there.
Unlike some situations here there was no history of abuse of any sort within our MR and I was a devoted husband and she a devoted wife. The reasons why she became wayward are still in large part a mystery to me.
WW left a bit over 3 weeks ago to "get away from the noise" and presumably to make up her mind on where her future lies. I do know that she has not moved in with OM but as far as I can know the A continues. She appears to have cut off ties with the group of enabling "friends" who I feel played a large part in reinforcing her in her wayward path. But again, I can't know that for sure.
She does know that I am waiting for her and that I love her unconditionally and will take her back. Prior to her moving out I had been working on detaching with some moderate success. Since she moved out I have done my best to "drop the rope" and have no contact. It's now been 12 days since I have had any sort of communication with her. I tend to be active on social media presenting as confident, happy face as I can. I have a good support network of friends and family whose well-meant advice I often ignore. The affair and separation are kept as secret as anything can be in a small village with the affair being the more tightly held secret.
I am working on myself to piece together a life without W and yes, do often struggle with it. Contrary to the above statement it is obvious to W that I am acting as if I don't expect her to come back and to be honest that is the reality of it. I have good days and bad days with the good days seeming to slowly be growing in number. The bad days though can be very dark sometimes.
So - pull up a chair, make yourself comfortable, browse the old magazines piled around that WW left behind because Now we wait.
Crap. I drove by WW's house to go and get groceries and OM was there walking in the back yard with her. I've not seen him before but know what he looks like. On my way back a short while later (don't need many groceries) WW was getting into OM's vehicle.
I knew in my head that she now has her little love nest even though I denied it at first. "IS" she still thinking and trying to make up her mind?
I feel like calling her and screaming at her.
I feel like blasting this all over Facebook.
I feel like giving up.
I feel like crying - sorry - already doing that.
Crap
AndrewP nooooo
do none of the above (except the last one). Also, I'll point out the obvious: don't drive by her house!
I'll tell you why you shouldn't. The A could be built on them complaining about their spouses. It brings them closer, the shared complaining and unhappiness. So everytime you do something like drive by (and they might see you) or facebook blast or call and scream, it's more fuel for their A fire. ("see what I mean? He's such a jerk",etc your WW might say).
Be strong. If their glue in the relationship is how unhappy their marriages were, well, that's not much glue is it? No matter what, your W is married. The guy knows it. It's not a sexy or attractive position to be in, at all, for anyone. Sneaking around can only go so far. I think that's why A generally do not last long, because reality sets in and it's not attractive. Who wants to be someone married to someone else? Well, food for thought. Hope you don't contact her.
Andrew, I don't know what to say amigo, aside from I know exactly how you feel.
I've discovered wh & ow where together last night. And his causal "and what" approach angers me further.
I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings of wanting to do something, anything that will cause some kind of chaos or allow them to feel a single drop of the amount of pain that we feel. But as Altair says and like I have been advised on my post, it isn't going to solve anything at all. All it will do is justify their feelings: "do you see what I have to put up with" etc. We need to appear the attractive spouse.
So much as me and you are overflowing with emotion right now. We just need to accept the anger, accept the pain and move past it.
And again, as highlighted above. What the hell is attractive about our spouses right now?! People who can happily have an affair?! The op should really wise up and see that they are nothing special, if it happened to us, it can happen to them.
So listen, if it's any comfort. I feel this pain with you. I'm here with you. And we can rant to one another, but to them- they don't get to be given the satisfaction or the fuel to their sordid lives.
I'm sending you the biggest hug! And some virtual churros y chocolaté, comfort food!
Unlike some situations here there was no history of abuse of any sort within our MR...
She does know that I am waiting for her and that I love her unconditionally and will take her back.
I am working on myself to piece together a life without W and yes, do often struggle with it.
AP - hey man, question - no abuse from you in the M, what about in her life before you, specifically childhood? Also, she can know that you love her unconditionally (say it one time if you must and then never again), but not that you will take her back or that you are "waiting". Erase this with action brother - the 12 days are a start. You are plan B if she knows these two things. Last, the struggle for us all. Your choice - get stronger or live in pain that medication does not exist for. What is your choice?
Your other item - I feel you. I must drive by WW's place to take s4 to daycare. No other option unless I walk the full distance or drive an extra 30 minutes. She OM there vehicle some mornings. DO NOT CALL HER OR SOCIAL MEDIA THIS! Hope I am not too late in reaching you. We can discuss why later, for now...stand down brother.
Altair - I have no real choice but to drive by that house. This is a small village and that is one of the few ways out of it. What I need to do is detach more and not look.
I think that WW did see me when she was getting into OM vehicle - she did look up. I have a very common car though and was driving fairly quickly so there may be doubt in her mind.
Just a couple of clarifications OM is a widower and I can almost guarantee that he's not living in the village with WW. He has a much nicer house of his own. Also because this is a small village and WW drives a unique car probably most people know where she's living and how many / what sort of visitors she is getting. I believe that they are still trying to be discrete. I really wish they weren't because keeping quiet is one of the burdens I bear.
I'm not sure what sort of glue binds them - that's too much mind-reading and again - it doesn't matter. For OM - I'm sure he was lonely. He'd been chasing WW for some time before he caught her.
After I posted here - for which I'm grateful of having this outlet - I went out and cut the grass coming to the conclusion that this really changes nothing. She's been having the A for about 8 months and she told me that it was continuing.
Believe it or not, one of the things I wanted to have happen much earlier in this journey was for them to actually spend a lot of time with each other. WW is a poor housekeeper, not good in bed, is prone to complain and at times doesn't control her anger well. She can however make an effort on these matters for short periods of time. She is also if I can be blunt, a fat middle-aged woman with all the related sags and droops and pains.
P.S. - she seems to have stopped walking so much and from a distance looks like she's packing on the lbs again. In her "natural habitat" at 4'11" she was about 185lbs. She was down 20 when she left. The walking was originally a symptom of her being unhappy then it became the cover story for meeting with OM.
So listen, if it's any comfort. I feel this pain with you. I'm here with you. And we can rant to one another, but to them- they don't get to be given the satisfaction or the fuel to their sordid lives.
I'm sending you the biggest hug! And some virtual churros y chocolaté, comfort food!
Cherry - thanks. You are a sweetheart and a treasure. I've never had churros before.
If you don't mind moving to Canada you and the kids can move in with me. It'll be like instant grandkids for me. It's been a long time but in my day I was a pretty good diaper changer. I have a big and rather empty house and you can each have your own room and I can get my hugs. There's a big back yard, a great park a short walk away and lots of friendly people.
P.S. - I didn't post anything outside of here and a message to my SIL support team.
AP - hey man, question - no abuse from you in the M, what about in her life before you, specifically childhood? Also, she can know that you love her unconditionally (say it one time if you must and then never again), but not that you will take her back or that you are "waiting". Erase this with action brother - the 12 days are a start. You are plan B if she knows these two things. Last, the struggle for us all. Your choice - get stronger or live in pain that medication does not exist for. What is your choice?
CT1118 - thanks for stopping by and your question.
WW was (I believe - she never talked to me directly about it) sexually abused by an uncle as a child. In fact he abused pretty much all her female relations and the family ignored it. Her father was also "very" wayward and there was a lot of stress and anger in the home. (Much) older sister became an unwed teen mom and the family moved out of shame. WW herself was very rebellious as a teen and having big boobs lost her virginity at 12.
WW must know that I am moving on. Other than the one "I love you" at the end of a text I sent the day she moved out there has been no reinforcing of that. She knows that the stuff she left behind is being boxed up which is about the strongest message I can reasonably send. I've also posted on social media (just once in a joking fashion) about the nice compliments I'm getting on my appearance from members of the opposite sex.
There has been no reinforcement of the "unconditional" or "waiting" since on the morning she left I got on my knees and begged her not to go and that if she had to go to please come back. The N/C includes social media where (generally) I don't post any "lovey" messages and certainly nothing aimed at her. Sadly it means that I also don't feel that I can post any of the truly funny things I see about cheating spouses since that would be interpreted as being aimed at her too.
The reality is that I need to not only "act as if" I'm moving on but actually plan for it. She may never come back and if she does she knows that there are conditions. My IC had suggested that I do up a list of things involved in a reconciliation and she saw a draft copy which had all of the "standard" conditions recommended here on it. From time to time I sweat more blood into it but I don't think she's looked again. Additionally on June 23rd I gave her a letter asking her to decide in a "reasonable time" to either reconcile or that I would look at taking steps to end the marriage.
I know it's foolish and probably dead wrong but the end of September deadline for her to have to move where she lives may also be the time when she makes up her mind. If she doesn't then I need to decide in my own mind do I push her to choose or do I flip the calendar page to October.
I'm working on the stronger but I also know that inside me there is a small scared boy who cries in the night and says "please stop hurting me". The pain is real and I'm grateful that I can talk about it here. Outside these electronic walls I am as someone posted a while ago doing my best to "fake it until you make it".
Thanks
AndrewP --
You fool !!! How can you refuse the virtual churros. I will take them from you. Muchisima gracias Cherry.
Seriously though: when I hear (read) the stuff you're going through, it really feels like daggers in my own guts, as we are all in similar situations. I don't know what to say. It's all $#@! surreal. It just feel unreal, all a bad dream.
I'm glad CT1118 asked about your W's childhood traumas, because childhood traumas are linked to borderline personality disorders (BPD). The reason I'm latched onto this in your case is that you mentioned your W rushed into marriage and was highly controlling. For someone w/ BPD, attention/approval/security provided by a person(s) is like heroin. They want more and more. Your W married you, then the heroin wore off -- therefore the sex-life goes downhill. And since then she's been getting her kicks from platonic relationships all the while secretly or subconsciously missing the heroin hit she got when she married you. The above type of behavior is included in this item from NIMH's "Signs & Symptoms":
"A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)"
The fact that infidelity "runs in the family" is consistent w/ BPD too, because BPD is strongly related to very poor impulse control, and the physical size of the hippocampus in the sufferer's brain is smaller than that found in a normal brain.
Not saying your W has BPD.... just something to consider if she's displayed a lifelong pattern of getting high on relationships, both sexual and platonic.
ForGump - Very likely I lack perspective being too close to the situation. She has indeed always craved attention and approval sometimes to ridiculous levels. One of the reasons I became smothering was W would come home and keep calling "hello" and wandering around the house looking for me. I had presumed she was lonely and wanted to talk so started making more and more time for her.
Still BPD or not there's not much I can do at present except hope that it messes up her A.
BPD or not, her A is going to blow up. I'm sure of it.
When I miss my W like crazy, and the thought of her w/ someone else feels like daggers ... I try to re-focus on what kind of a person she has become. What has she done to me. What is she doing to our kids and our family. That helps a tiny bit.
Well - while we're sitting here in the green room waiting for the next act I just wanted to chat a bit about "Why Do I Have Hope". No 2X4s please - just wasting the internet a bit and possibly trying to reinforce my resolve after a tough week. Tomorrow I go back to work and will be trying to spend only an "appropriate" amount of time here.
Fair warning though - this is a lot of rambling nonsense so please don't bother reading looking to pick it apart or get me to "see sense" or if you have something better to do like watch paint dry. This is mostly written for me.
What W has told me - let's pretend to believe it for now:
- On BD2 she said that OM was serious about her but she was unsure.
- She didn't "intend" to have an A - it was "accidental".
For a long time I didn't really pay much attention to this. I originally interpreted it as her getting drunk one day and falling on her back. I thought that she kept at it because of the rush and guilt and because she thought that it ended our marriage. I put a lot of blame on OM who I knew had been chasing after her. I also attributed WW with callous motives looking for a better situation because OM is wealthier. My current mind-reading on this is that she fell in love with a man who was showing sympathy and kindness to a vulnerable woman and who was more than willing to provide comfort. Not sure about the truth of any of this though. It's not a topic I pursued with W. This gives me two types of hope. The first one is a bit callous. If she goes to OM then I can possibly get off with a minimal divorce settlement. The second type of hope is that it could imply that she's not committed to the A or the WW lifestyle.
W has consistently and emphatically resisted any permanent changes I suggested that would pave the road out for her or add risk to our situation. This includes me thinking about managing our investments myself, suggesting canceling insurance policies that were over and above what would be necessary to clear the estate, me changing jobs to a more interesting but riskier one. Other things such as backing down when I threatened to remove my wedding ring, keeping the A a tightly guarded secret and being horrified of me filing for divorce with grounds of infidelity making that public knowledge also adds to the tally. She has also up until she moved out consistently kept wearing all of her rings beyond just the wedding band that would be required to fool the world. I presume she still is wearing them but can't say for sure.
Even though W has had a meeting with a L - nothing has come out of that (as of yet at least but it's been weeks). She would realize that once that train starts rolling that it would be tough to stop and that I have the power to drive it because I have grounds for divorce.
Even though she's had lots of opportunity I believe that she hasn't told S22/D24 about OM. As far as I can tell OM's children are also not aware although that is something that I can only guess from her not connecting to them on social media and the fact that she seems to have a distinct line between OM and his son who currently does the deliveries into W's store.
All of this leads me to believe that she's not sure that her future lies with OM - again I could be completely wrong here.
When the house was stripped now 3 1/2 weeks ago it was done in a bizarre mix of methodical and random. W has had lots of opportunities to come back when I'm not here and grab more stuff. There are a couple of items that stand out strongly mainly our files and the copy of her parent's will. Also still here are many of the pills and potions that made her beautiful and helped her get through the day. Nothing prescription and nothing irreplaceable but easy to just come back and toss into a box. The infamous boxes in our front porch that I so helpfully packed for her are also still there.
W loves her job and has a lot of pride in her standing in the community. Even though it would have been easy for her to move in with OM it would be a fair sized but not unreasonable commute. Also when communicating with my barber she made a point of referring to herself as AndrewP's wife as a way of identifying herself. There really was no reason for her to make that association.
W continues to be connected on Facebook to all of my relatives and while she didn't participate in any of the group chats around family events she was definitely monitoring them. It would be dead easy for her to just unfriend a whole block of people and remove that noise. On a related note I did tell her that my family would welcome her back on the night before she left. Oddly none of WW's relatives including her brother who was encouraging her have unfriended "me". One theory is that they're keeping an eye on me. I post updates often enough that it is noticeable noise on their news feed.
W appears to have shed the bulk of the enabling friends and they her. This could have multiple reasons and I'm not sure what's going on here. Her "cry for help" post a few days ago was only "liked" by one mutual friend (who has been very kind to me) and by my SIL that W likes and admires (at my request). The posts that the "friends" placed around move out day tagging her went unanswered / unliked by her as well. She has been pressing "like" on posts by people who weren't in the "echo ensemble" though so it's targeted.
She may be feeling the loss of S22/D24. She made an effort to reach out to them just before she left on Facebook and was met with silence. Additionally S22 backed out of a visit when she said she wanted to see him. WW did go to see him though. She would know though that her A will hurt her standing in their eyes.
W made a point of taking 3 documents that she could have just tossed / shredded. One was the letter I wrote her asking her to reconcile. Another was a list I had done up as an exercise on her positive and negative attributes. The third was the draft copy of the document I was working on that identifies the steps towards reconciliation. No clue as to what this means but it "hopeful".
It took "forever" for W to actually leave the house. There were multiple partial steps but it only came to a completion much later. Oddly W told me that she almost canceled leaving when she did because I had had a good day that day and she didn't want to spoil it for me (???)
Even though she could have been far more manipulative and led a more comfortable life W almost insisted on being a martyr making daily life difficult for her. A silly and simple example of this was her continued use of the master bath to clean her teeth. She could have easily just moved her toothbrush but instead would timidly knock on the MBR door, ask to be admitted and then rush through, clean her teeth and then rush out usually looking straight ahead.
One possible "advantage" of having W in the house for so long was that I think that I was able to shine in terms of what a great H I am and how well I did on my GAL and on being self-sufficient. She certainly noticed the almost complete cessation of drinking and the improvements in my appearance. She certainly noticed that I always treated her with courtesy and honesty and (which gave me my false hope at one point) did the same to me. We would also fairly often sit and chat just like in the "good old days". This means that when she left that I believe she had a positive image of me to carry with her. It may have been accidental but she also took a framed picture of me that used to be at her bedside while leaving behind other things from the same part of the room.
Speaking of my false hope day (June 4th) I can't help but think that the A must have at least cooled substantially. There were very few unaccounted absences. It was only just before she moved out that there were a few "dinner with friends" evenings otherwise she told me where she was and who she was with and it was all very plausible.
Finally when she left she was obviously terrified and perhaps torn. I did insist on her telling me if she did still love me and she said that yes she did.
So - what we may have here then is a woman who is in love with 2 men. The path to either of them is difficult in different ways.
Knowing W's likes and dislikes and the little I know about OM they have few compatible interests. If she goes to him she'll (very likely) lose her job that she loves and the respect of the community. Not so much because she'll be fired or shut out but the longer commute will be tough on her and the whispering and disdain from people will be tougher. She will be an intruder into an established family replacing a well loved mother and grandmother and also being a threat to the children's legacy of the family business. Relations with S22/D24 will be strained and she may actually not be able to keep even the historically tenuous contact she had with them. Her own family will on one hand probably crow to see me gone but very likely will not be welcoming of OM. Her mother certainly won't be. WW will also find herself the featured entry in the regular bashing her family does of people who have marital problems.
If she comes back to me she will have to swallow a lot of pride and do a lot of work to rebuild the trust that was abused. She will also be giving up on her dreams and will still have under it all the reasons she originally felt that she needed to leave.
The third path is for her to go off on her own. She knows that I would not keep the secret of her A if she does this. I stated it as a fact, not as a threat in that I only am protecting her because she is family. She would struggle to keep her place in the community and may be obliged to move and start over somewhere else fresh.
There is a fourth path that I need to acknowledge although I hope it doesn't come to that. In dark times WW has talked about suicide and there haven't been any times as dark as this.
So - why does this give me hope? Mainly because I think the ball is still in play and that WW hasn't decided.
Crap. I drove by WW's house to go and get groceries and OM was there walking in the back yard with her. I've not seen him before but know what he looks like. On my way back a short while later (don't need many groceries) WW was getting into OM's vehicle.
I knew in my head that she now has her little love nest even though I denied it at first. "IS" she still thinking and trying to make up her mind?
I feel like calling her and screaming at her.
I feel like blasting this all over Facebook.
I feel like giving up.
I feel like crying - sorry - already doing that.
Crap
Me and you AndrewP are in the same boat. My WW has a love nest herself. I only passed by her place once since she got her apartment two months ago. The other times to pick up our daughters. I highly suggest not pass her place, cause you are hurting yourself more. The first time I did it, my heart was racing and pounding. Not sure of myself of what would I do if I saw the OM. Much power to you for not confronting OM, cause I know at this time, I would have confronted the OM with a fist. Another reason why I stay away, I don't want my daughters to be taken away from me.
I deactivated my facebook account for now. For me, I know I can ruin my dignity even more with her family members, military friends and former coworkers if I went on Facebook and express myself and trashed her there. So no Facebook for me until I know I have full control of my emotions.
In the last what almost 3 months, I gave up like 4 times. Eventually I decided to fully go dark. Doing this for me now.
Cry brother, let it out. Trust me, you will feel better. I can count the many times I went home for lunch just to scream and cry hard. Don't hold it in. I recall once pulling over in a secluded area and screaming.
We are here for you. I care about you, so you keep going cause you are not the only one doing this. We might know each other but remember you got friends here, myself included offering each other support. I know you supported me too and I really appreciated that.
I dug this up from my thread a couple weeks ago. A piece of my mind-reading gone wrong and darknes being right.
Its interesting to me that you think your W has gone dark to OM. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that is the case.
Im pretty sure the "noise" she references is all of the people that are telling her that her R with OM is wrong.
Ignoring what this means about WW and OM it does help me feel a bit better in that I may have more support and sympathy from my neighbours and friends than I thought I did. No clue if this also means that W's isolation might be more involuntary that I thought or if that is having an impact on her. The place she is in is both an isolated house on the edge of the village with no internet access and a house that stands naked by itself with her unique and well known vehicle next to it.
I'm still recovering from seeing them together yesterday. I have to fight the "give up" feeling and get back to the "detach". A good friend of mine here at work was really pushing his "give up" message to me today. It was tough to not break down in the face of his "certainty".
P.S. - if CT1118 happens by I did have a chance to respond to your question. If you'd like to give me your thoughts I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately my answer was buried on a previous page by my drama and ramblings
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2696683#Post2696683
AP, completely get what you're going through. It's much tougher than I'd thought to truly detach. Besides the incident the other day though it sounds like you're on the right track (mind reading post from last night aside
).
Keep at it brother, you'll get through seeing her and the OM together just like you've gotten through everything else so far!
Minor update. I think I'm overall getting better at detaching.
- A few days ago when I pulled out of the drive WW was in her car opposite. I was tempted to wave but ignored her. She drove off quickly in a random direction (to hide where she was living I think) She would certainly know that I saw her and that I didn't do anything.
- On Sunday when driving past WW's house while she and OM were getting into his vehicle I (hope I didn't) slow down or anything as I drove past. WW did look up but might not have seen/recognized the car. It "is" a small village though. Again a lack of response at seeing her just as if she were another neighbour.
Now for the over-analyzing and mind-reading portion of the program.
Last night was a weird one. A few days ago on our anniversary WW had posted a (now incredibly rare) posting on Facebook that was essentially a cry for help and got pretty much no response. I can certainly understand the angst she may have been feeling that day. Last night she posted a few things the first of which a picture that was a definite cry for help I am a strong person but once in a while I would like someone to take my hand and tell me that everything is going to be alright. "Of course" I immediately melted and felt that I needed to reach out to her and comfort her but then I didn't. Instead I got on the SIL messenger group and asked them to also not pay any attention to it either. Then I replied to an email from a female (platonic) friend confirming dinner on Friday and went to bed. I was also tempted to fill another couple of boxes - I'm still feeling ticked about seeing her with OM.
I don't know how many of you remember the old TV show "Get Smart". Just like "The Chief" I should have no business running a secret conspiracy. WW had also posted a couple of other things on FB and one of the SIL team replied back that she didn't press like on the used car ad that WW had shared from a friend but that she had pressed "like" on the call for help - sigh. One of the things she had posted as well was something that when she was in the house I would have been all over but again I ignored it and went to work.
This morning WW had received only 4 response comments to her call, 3 of which were from people who know she's moved out. One was her boss who just said "take care". The other two responses made me go "er?" because in my "trying to make sense of things" world - they didn't make sense. I suppose it depends on the narrative that she's been feeding them. The responses were for her to "be patient - things will work out". They believe they are waiting for something to happen to/for WW? Maybe they think the ball is in my lap? I'm pretty sure that one of them does not know directly about OM. I was tempted (but didn't) reach out to them to ask WTF? The last response was of strong support and love from a very sweet and very religious lady that has been a great friend to WW for many years who has no clue as to any problems. Probably made WW twitch a bit.
WW dutifully pressed "like" on each of the responses EXCEPT the one from her boss which again was just weird.
My own FB review today was tough. There's a feature "on this date" which for the last while has been nothing but happy memories of WW and I together. She's probably seeing the same thing. I did a couple of semi-random things that didn't involve WW to appear to GAL and moved on with my day.
I "know" I'm doing the right thing by not reaching out when WW posts these calls for help online. Or am I? I gave this a lot of thought last night because if this is the beginning of a trend of WW having bad days and reaching out to the world inside me I feel that I should be the one responding and showing love and support. But that's pursuing and might drive her away.
Are these "temp checks"? The addition of the other share that would have been very attractive to me and she knows it adds to that (mind reading!). If I understand the "plan" that I should be following it's that I need to wait for her to reach out directly to me before responding, otherwise move on without her.
I do worry that she might be heading into a downward spiral with no one to catch her. One other thing that crossed my mind is that NEVER in over 50 years of life has WW been as truly alone as she is now. Sure there's OM around but it's not every day. She moved from her parent's house into a flat where she spent her time visiting with her landlady and friends. From there in with me. Now she's in a house by herself at the edge of town with no "real" internet connection (she must be blowing through her mobile data plan), scared, lonely and confused. I hurt for her.
Sigh - this DB thing is hard and confusing.
P.S. "Better at detaching" doesn't mean I'm good at it yet. Now 2 weeks since last contact. And yes I should stop looking at Facebook I suppose. I did "unfollow" her but for some reason Facebook finds it necessary to send me an alert when WW posts / shares content directly rather than just "liking". It's pretty minimal these days and gives me an anonymous "temp check" of hers that's how I justify it in my own mind. If I start getting too wrapped up in it then I'll need to find a way to switch that off too.
You weren't kidding when you labeled it "over-analyzing."
You are giving way too much weight to the liking or not liking of comments. My behavior on Facebook is much less logical and prone to momentary distractions (holding coffee, working on my phone, watching TV, etc).
Also, you seem to think that your wife won't like living alone. Not sure why. A very common theme in books and convos by and about middle-age women is the freedom of living alone. She might be loving the solitude.
Rose888 - that's why I unfollowed her to get rid of the "less logical" noise that was driving me even more mad than I am now. The "cry for help" was very specific (again mind-reading) and there's a "protocol" around those sorts of things (in my mind anyway and I believe in WW) just like when people give you birthday greetings. We're from a land where "thank you cards" are still considered essential and kindnesses are acknowledged.
About living alone - You could be right - WW did comment at one point that she'd like living alone. She just never has in over 50 years. She has always seemed to crave company and conversation. Not really a big issue though long term. It was more a concern that as she struggles with all of "this" that her safety net seems to have largely fallen apart. I know from past experience that OM very much cannot be relied on to be there for her. There have been some big crisis where he been "not available". What I don't know is how far I should let her fall before trying to catch her which is where I was going with my rambling nonsense.
Rose888 - I know we've butted heads multiple times (and I still think my chest is pretty manly and my GAL while not great isn't "pathetic" as you've called it) and you push fairly hard the heavy duty detachment and moving on. I am very worried about WW though and want to be sure that I do the "right" thing to be ready if she turns my way which is why I'm watching and waiting.
Andrew, please allow me to apologize again for using the word "pathetic." It was a very poor choice of words.
Because I share my computer with kids, I only access this board on my iPad or phone. Because I hate typing with my thumbs, this means my posts are shorter than they would otherwise be, and I tend to get right to the point. I don't sound terse in my head, so I don't always realize how my posts sound to others.
There is something about your situation that I find compelling. You seem to be a great guy who is making this situation harder on yourself than it needs to be. I post in the hope of helping you avoid pain.
That said, it seems I'm hurting more than helping, so I'm going to bow out.
I wish you the very best of luck.
AndrewP -- please consider taking a break from social media. Like any addiction, it will be hard the first couple of days, but then you'll get used to it. I'm working on weaning myself of FB also. The first baby step I took was to delete the app from my phone. That helped cut down quite a bit of FB use. And I'm avoiding it at work. One thing that helps me do that is realizing that all your friends can see how recently you've been on, and I really don't want to be a 40-something guy who checks FB 20 times a day.
More importantly, I'd like to ask you something: if everything went south and you really have to move on ... can you see yourself dating again? What type of a woman would you like to date? Would you seek any quality that your W does not have? Do you have any acquaintances currently that, just hypothetically, you'd be willing to date?
ForGump - Thanks for stopping by. Actually social media is a great comfort to me. Through it I can know that I am liked and even loved by others. I can satisfy my need to share myself with the world even though otherwise I have a somewhat isolated lifestyle. In the early days of the internet I was a frequent blogger. I'm grateful for the outlet of this forum to give me a place to write about issues that are otherwise very private. I wish SO MUCH that I could publish this publicly but that would do far too much harm to WW. I regularly fight the temptation. Without it I would feel very isolated. With a 14 hour work day and a busy list of errands and maintenance on the weekends I have little time to be out and about in the community. Something I am hoping to change with a new job. With my children living far away and few local friends daily social interaction is necessarily done online.
I think that you are more concerned about my awareness of W on social media. I did un-follow her so only get a small amount of activity from her. Previously as you know it was indeed driving me even more mad than I am now as I would see ALL the items that she reacted to and over-analyze. I'm reluctant to cut that off though because - well because.
Your next question is far more interesting and is one that I have actually been guiltily giving thought to. I don't presently have any acquaintances (people I know fairly well) who I would consider "dating material" but do confess that I have occasionally thought about people I have met and know as potential new interests. For the people I know who might be compatible they are either currently in a relationship, there is too much of an age difference (I've no interest in cradle robbing), or are unavailable for other reasons such as geography, lifestyle etc. I know for myself that I am in no way ready - or so I believe. Colleagues from work I consider off-limits as I keep a very careful line between work and personal. One thing I worry a lot about is being "caught on the rebound" by someone not suitable and for whom I am not ready.
So - what would be suitable. Setting aside my idealized WW, I would be attracted to a mature lady with a broad sense of fun. They would need to be well read in terms of both literature and world events and able to talk on any number of subjects. I'm not looking for a "debater" but just someone who has their own well founded opinions which don't have to match mine. Caring, kind and thoughtful are also important along with a strong sense of self. I'm a very affectionate person so being comfortable with their own bodies and in being touched and held is in there too. Reliable with high moral standards are important. Moving down the list of priorities being feminine is attractive to me so good grooming and an interest in looking their best whatever that might be. Size, shape, colour and (to a degree) age aren't significant factors.
On the other hand, I do know that everyone comes with their own sets of baggage and so I need to be aware that a person comes as a package along with perhaps children, ex spouses and related family as do I.
BTW - I think my SIL support team is already lining up names
I think that you are more concerned about my awareness of W on social media. I did un-follow her so only get a small amount of activity from her. Previously as you know it was indeed driving me even more mad than I am now as I would see ALL the items that she reacted to and over-analyze. I'm reluctant to cut that off though because - well because.
Rip that bandaid off AP! I understand it's hard to fully remove yourself, but I'd imagine it'd help w/ the detachment process, though the first few days may be tough. I think I was lucky in that the W made that decision for me and cut me off completely on FB at the start of this thing. I would probably be in the same spot as you if she hadn't. W/ her having done it though, I find myself feeling better that I don't know what the hell she's doing on there.
Regardless though, you're making progress bud. Keep chugging along, and don't feel guilty about thinking through the dating stuff. If this doesn't work out, you'll need to face it at some point. Work on your GAL stuff in the meantime and the dating thing may come naturally out of that as well. Your SIL support network seems very invested in you too which is good to hear.
Here for you brother!
Another kick in the nuts. WW and OM had dinner with one of her friends who posted about "you know his name" on Facebook. I unfortunately reacted and sent her this message:
"I noticed [Friend] being less than discrete on Facebook. Do I need to stop hiding it too?
I don't WANT to be the one exposing you and having stood in the flames and mud this long don't want to feel that it has been a waste of my time.
Feeling very betrayed and pissed at the moment."
I can pull the trigger on this marriage this afternoon if that's what she wants. Waiting to see if she responds. I could blow this thing wide open "very" easily at the moment but I'm giving her the chance to put it back under cover.
AP, take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard! Having been through this recently this can snowball into something you don't want.
This [censored] and is the reason you should bail on the FB attachment to W. Your response to her won't make her feel guilty, it'll probably only drive her further from you. It tells her that you are monitoring her and she still has you somewhat under her control. It can only unravel some of the work you've done.
Before you respond to anything else, I'd offer you post it on here for the vets to opine on. it'll give you a chance to cool down too.
Be strong brother, don't rip apart your hard work!!!
So WW texts me back claiming that it was a Jason Bourne movie that she went to see with [Friend]
Minor text exchange with W ensues:
AP - Perhaps a clarification would be in order. Your "secret" is known to several people and I won't be the only one to jump to this conclusion.
WW - Done. I'm aware of how many people know - as you listed them.
AP - People are pretty observant and you have told a few who are not on my list.
<transmission ends>
Back to my flaming mud hole now. I need to stop the shaking. Glad I'm working from my home office today.
Oh and WW and [Friend] both posted an excessively clear explanations - to the point where [Friend] almost wrote - "no it's not the guy your wife is sleeping with - honest". I'm strongly of the mind-set to not believe WW and that OM was there. I was going to write that it doesn't matter but yes it does. If WW were starting to be more open and showing off OM then she's picked her direction.
Interesting how she said that only the people I told know (I gave her a list when she moved out - story irrelevant and buried way back in my threads).
And the N/C clock resets once again - was at 14 days now at 14 minutes.
On one hand - this might be a good thing to have put a scare into her.
ForGump and doodler will at least have a lol on this.
Your response to her won't make her feel guilty
Thanks - I'll try harder. The goal wasn't to make her feel guilty - the goal was to see if I have been set free. Holding her secret is like standing in flaming mud up to my nose.
You know - I really don't know what "work I've done" right now. Still her in the mud. WW still doing her thing with OM. The pages on the calendar still flip.
That message though was like a deliberate slap in the n@ts. I'm sure that [friend] knows all about OM and presuming that the story is true - this could very well have been quite deliberate. She falls into the category of "fire-starter" IMO.
With a 14 hour work day and a busy list of errands and maintenance on the weekends I have little time to be out and about in the community.
I'm reluctant to cut that off though because - well because.
I get that you feel like you hve a lot to do and no time to get out there. But it's been almost 4 months since you joined this place and the closest thing to a GAL activity that Ive seen is you going out to play miniature golf by yourself. I understand that a 14 hour day leaves little time for external fun, but you had 9 work-free days and couldnt muster a single new thing. I dont know how to more strongly urge you to just TRY doing some things out of your comfort zone. Im certainly not about to say you havent done anything in this time, as I can see much growth personally, but at the same time, I keep waiting for you to do something new. Not for your wife, but for you. The amount of time you must have spent considering these FB posts and writing about it here and who knows where else is staggering. Think if those hours were spent going out to some kind of meetup. Im not saying you need to be a "Social Butterfly" and suddenly become an incredible extrovert. But if it's hiking, or biking, or bird watching, or yoga, or ironing....some kind of club to get you out of the house even once a week to meet even a few new people that you wont whittle away with your situation.
I notice in your statements above that you seem to understand what things you should do, but for whatever reason, you havent reached a point where you will actually do them. It's like you believe if you are a good boy long enough, that eventually, your W will pick you. Even the title of this thread suggests that! I may be reading things wrong, but thats how it comes across the page to me. I want so badly for you to go out and be able to take some focus off of all of this, as all you are doing is hurting yourself. You are in a cheeseless wing of the maze. Why do you want to keep running around coming up empty handed?
if everything went south and you really have to move on ... can you see yourself dating again? What type of a woman would you like to date? Would you seek any quality that your W does not have? Do you have any acquaintances currently that, just hypothetically, you'd be willing to date?
Frnakly, at this point, I dont see any value in going through this exercise. AP is still fighting to save this marriage...why does it matter if theres another hypothetical woman out there?
"I noticed [Friend] being less than discrete on Facebook. Do I need to stop hiding it too?
I don't WANT to be the one exposing you and having stood in the flames and mud this long don't want to feel that it has been a waste of my time.
Feeling very betrayed and pissed at the moment."
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. So many thoughts.
1) Just unfriend or unfollow these people on Facebook. All you are doing is sticking needles into your eyeballs. YOU ARE HURTING ONLY YOURSELF reading these things. Why do you keep insisting on doing the same things?
2) What was the point of sending this message? What was your goal?
3) That second line - I totally get how you feel. Ive been there, in the war zone, dealing with all of the hurt and sadness and anger. But your W didnt ask you to do that. So what is the point in telling her? She's going to come back and say "yeah...youre wasting your time." She is in a relationship with another person - why do you think she wants to hear from you that you are waiting for her to choose you?
4) Same for the last line. What is it about THIS that makes you feel betrayed? You already knew about the affair. So them having secret, illicit sex is cool, but going out to dinner with your friend and seeing them post to FB is hurtful to you?
At this point, I suppose whats done is done. Going forward -
-- unfriend these people on FB.
-- start enforcing a 24 hour rule. No contact with W for 24 hours after seeing/reading/hearing something and THEN determine if theres still a reason.
In the end, Im really sorry if this reads like a 2x4. Thats really not my intention. I can see that you are hurting, and I am also hurting for you. I hate seeing people on here feeling down. I am posting my thoughts to you, because I believe them to be true. The actions I recommend, I do it, because they worked for me. Like you, Im a complete overanalyzer - the only way out was to give my mind something ELSE to work on. I GALed the [censored] out of life as a means to turn my brain off on the things I couldnt control. I cut off all non -essential communication with my ex, because I couldnt live any other way being strung along. I am hoping for the best for you, but until you can stop hurting yourself and start helping yourself, Im nervous that things wont get any better for you.
Your response to her won't make her feel guilty
Thanks - I'll try harder. The goal wasn't to make her feel guilty - the goal was to see if I have been set free. Holding her secret is like standing in flaming mud up to my nose.
Ah, but the point is she shouldn't be the one to set you free AP. Only you can be the one to set yourself free via detachment. That involves somehow removing the angst of holding her secret. Easier said than done, but don't let her actions control you and your emotional well being. (I suck at this right now, by the way!)
You know - I really don't know what "work I've done" right now. Still her in the mud. WW still doing her thing with OM. The pages on the calendar still flip.
The work you've done is how you've improved yourself, your emotional well being, and also the 14 days of NC. Don't sell yourself short on the progress you've made, bc it's been hard earned and you should be proud of it. Definitely don't let her actions drag you back into that mud amigo!
Now turn this 14 minutes into another 14 days and then some. Let her move down her path while you more actively/constructively pursue your own path. You're a good guy and don't deserve the angst that these posts are putting on you. (p.s. cut off all the FB stuff w/ her! :))
That message though was like a deliberate slap in the n@ts. I'm sure that [friend] knows all about OM and presuming that the story is true - this could very well have been quite deliberate. She falls into the category of "fire-starter" IMO.
Yep, [censored] and it may be deliberate, but it's best to just ignore it. Don't give her the pleasure of knowing she started a fire. Once she realizes you won't respond to her taunts, she'll stop wasting her time.
Don't let any of this wear on you AP, just a bump in the road. I completely understand how huge some of this stuff seems when it hits. Best to put it in the rear view mirror and focus on grinding on.
Just to come to AndrewP's defense a little bit, his W told him when she moved out that she was doing so to quiet "the noise" and see what she wanted to do (move forward with D or R). As part of that, they discussed both of them making a real effort to minimize the number of people who know about the infidelity, the sensible thinking being that the fewer who know, the fewer for whom a reconciled couple won't be "weird" or like there's an elephant in the room if they ever try to socialize.
When he saw W's friend posting, possibly about OM, AndrewP could reasonably assume that W was not living up to her end of the bargain (letting friend know and not at least swearing her to secrecy) and, even more significantly, that she doesn't care who knows, because she's made up her mind w/r/t the direction (toward D, life with OM, whatever). Which, if his W wasn't so self-absorbed, he would have found out first, from her, instead of reading it on social media.
Now, DB principles correctly applied would not have resulted in AndrewP's e-mail to W. But I can why see he wrote it. Maybe that warrants loving 2X4s, but, man, I feel like I'd want to burn her new house down, so a passive aggressive instant message doesn't seem all that terrible from where I sit.
Good points JR! I'm equally as guilty of the passive-aggressive texts, and for a much less worthwhile reason. I worry though that AP is causing himself unneeded pain by keeping the FB connection w/ the W. Removing that connection removes her ability to control his emotions, which she now knows she can do.
I do get it though. I'm guilty of the same thing recently and it's tough to resist it. Putting the loving 2x4 away!
AP, still want you to remove the FB link to her though!
darnkes - As always you are right on the ball on this.
It's like you believe if you are a good boy long enough, that eventually, your W will pick you. Even the title of this thread suggests that! I may be reading things wrong, but thats how it comes across the page to me. I want so badly for you to go out and be able to take some focus off of all of this, as all you are doing is hurting yourself. You are in a cheeseless wing of the maze. Why do you want to keep running around coming up empty handed?
Hanging my head in shame at the moment - there were a number of other things that I did on my week off - I just didn't bother to mention them much - and yes - they were pretty "pathetic" GAL by many people's standards (sorry Rose - no hard feelings - the word fits here).
I feel "stuck" - in the mud, in the flames that I am standing in because of my WW. I'm trying the GAL thing and yes could be doing better but what remains is that to the outside world and the story I feel obliged to go along with I am a married man whose wife is having problems with him. This is a bit easier now that WW has moved out of the house and I don't have to pretend to be part of a happy couple but I still do have to pretend to the community to be a loving and devoted H. And the truth is - I am - otherwise ForGump's suggestion (and that of many people around me) would be more attractive but still a bad idea. To WW she knows that I'm cutting her out of my life one piece at a time.
The pain and burden of this to someone like me who so values honesty and truth makes the flames burn higher and the only way I can see to put them out would be to blow them out with the winds of truth or to walk away from the mud which to me means pushing for a legal S and not giving WW space and time. "Not thinking about it" I worry could only be done through the lens of a bottle of scotch or in another woman's arms and I'm not going that way. Every day when I return home and see the (decreasing) reminders of W around the house or turn and she's not there brings it all back to me. I tried staying somewhere else but that was even worse. Looking back, the 4 months I've been here DBing or the 6 months since BD1 are just a blink of an eye to a man who has spent more than half his life devoted to making one woman happy. It's going to take time.
I'm spending my time in the cheeseless wing of the maze because I'm not clear in my own mind what sort of cheese I want perhaps. Honestly the main cheese I want is W flavoured. By wandering around this wing where W is not - as my post is titled - I am waiting for her to come to me and not chasing down any of the tunnels she is in trying to follow the DB model. While I wander I try to find the tunnels that have some GAL cheese. In a perfect world I would have both. What WW sees from outside is not the pain and agony of what the reality is but (I presume) a man who is GAL and reconnecting with his friends and the community and incidentally packing up her things. I'm not sure how she'll take today's outburst - we could mind-read here and be wrong and suggest that she would have seen it as me giving up on her coming back. Just like the study notes for a short story the analysis takes more pages than the story - something I agree I need to cut back on to make more GAL room (and actually do more work for my company - hate to think how much time I've "wasted") - but it is perhaps good therapy for me to let this out and be hit with a 2X4 rather than let it stew and boil inside.
2) What was the point of sending this message? What was your goal?
WW may still believe - at least her text implies it - that her A is still a secret. My first reaction to seeing this - and I would have seen it eventually if not directly then someone would have brought my attention to it - was to spew venom all over it. The point of sending the message was to give WW the benefit of the doubt and a chance to put her secret back under the covers and yes - me back in my mud pit. I will admit that along with the anger and betrayal I felt in having my pain be for nought there was also a huge feeling of relief that I could now be FREE. My original hope was that the post would be removed before the close to 100 people who know both of us saw it but that's like my hope for this to have all never happened.
In the end, Im really sorry if this reads like a 2x4. Thats really not my intention.
I really don't know how others here with their WW in a secret A cope with it. I suspect the answer is "badly" just like me.
Thanks again buddy.
AndrewP could reasonably assume that W was not living up to her end of the bargain
<snip>
Now, DB principles correctly applied would not have resulted in AndrewP's e-mail to W. But I can why see he wrote it. Maybe that warrants loving 2X4s, but, man, I feel like I'd want to burn her new house down, so a passive aggressive instant message doesn't seem all that terrible from where I sit.
Thanks JRuss and lt0402 - it amazes me sometimes how familiar people in our club get to be with each other's stories. Maybe it's because like a bunch of old war vets we sit around telling the same stories over and over. You know I don't know how this situation fits into "DB philosophy" - I just wanted to either put out the fire or build it higher. Sometimes I look at it from the perspective of Eisenhower who once said "In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable." I am an inveterate planner as many will know but also know how useless plans are.
Thanks - and keep those 2X4s handy - you'll probably need them again.
to the outside world and the story I feel obliged to go along with I am a married man whose wife is having problems with him. This is a bit easier now that WW has moved out of the house and I don't have to pretend to be part of a happy couple but I still do have to pretend to the community to be a loving and devoted H.
That was my point with the GAL. It's time to make new friends that know you as 'AndrewP' and not as 'AndrewP's wife's husband'. I go to a meetup weekly where nobody there has ever met my ex. We go out, have a great time, and then go our separate ways. We talk, but not in detail about personal lives. From this group, I go on 5-10 other outings a year to meet up and do one thing or another not affiliated with the "group". Theres nothing sexual, just going out and having a nice time doing whatever.
I dont have to pretend to be anything or anyone. Im just me hanging out with my friends.
This is EXACTLY what you need to do. But what difference does a legal S agreement make at this point? Either way, you need to build your own life, your own social support structure. Frankly, I would consider beginning to distance yourself a little from your "SIL army". I am sure you are going to begin to wear thin with them if you continue to drown them in dealings with your W. As you mentioned before, one did some FB activity you disagreed with. I fear you are beginning to head down the same path with them as you did with your other friend.
"Not thinking about it" I worry could only be done through the lens of a bottle of scotch or in another woman's arms and I'm not going that way.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I didnt mention above, but in my weekly events I described, I have never consumed one drop of alcohol or touched another person. But for 6 hours a week or however long each gathering is, I can immerse my mind into bowling or a concert or a game of pool or whatever. By thinking about other things, I trained my brain to think about other things.
I will admit that along with the anger and betrayal I felt in having my pain be for nought there was also a huge feeling of relief that I could now be FREE.
You could be free to what? Share all around town what a sadluck guy you are that your W fled a loving marriage into the arms of a predatory OM? I dont see how other people knowing about an affair really changes anything. And frankly, if your village is as small as you say, and your W is openly wandering around town with OM, then likely, everyone knows already. The only thing having this out in the open does is let you talk about it to others in town....and why would you want to anyway? Whether the affair is a secret or not, I dont see how you gossiping about it helps you in any way at all.
This is EXACTLY what you need to do. But what difference does a legal S agreement make at this point?
Because I am living in WW's lie. And before you ask, I am living in that lie because to not live in that lie would be to not be true to my oath to her and would put barriers in front of my dream of her one day returning. By going for a S I would be telling W that "I give up" and "I don't want you any more" which I feel would push her away as a too big of a 2X4 whacking her and not just DBing. Yes - practically speaking we are S and yes - it's not a well kept secret but it also still a secret. As I've made it clear to her (and is part of DBing) - she has to decide where her future path lies - I don't decide it for her. That's what she said she has moved to to accomplish. My decision is that I still want her but that if she chooses to walk away then I will let her go (with a D boot up the @ss but that's beside the point).
And yes - I do try to keep things to a minimum with the SIL army. I was in a very hurting place when I burned out my other friend and (at her request) provided her with a journal every day which got to be far too much.
I will admit that along with the anger and betrayal I felt in having my pain be for nought there was also a huge feeling of relief that I could now be FREE.
I would be free from supporting WW's lies.
I would be free to openly pick a fresh path and walk down it with my head held high.
I would be free to purge those parts of WW that I would want gone away.
As long as I'm wandering the cheeseless tunnels then I am not free.
PS - GAL dinner planned a while ago for Friday with burned out friend on a patio so that I can listen to her problems for a change.
That GAL plan sounds great, AndrewP. Keep it up! I find that momentum is huge for GAL. One thing leads to another in a virtuous circle, and you end up doing better.
A few quick comments:
My point in asking you to ponder the kind of a woman you'd like is not really to encourage you to date right now. But to see if you can break out of you obsession w/ your WW as the center of your universe.
That leads me to my 2nd point: we can quibble about FB and updates and text etc., but my take is that your planet still revolves around your WW's sun. You need to escape her orbit, FB or no FB. I say this not as a coach, but as a fellow sufferer.
You still expect your WW to discuss issues w/ you in a reasonable way, and critique her for irrational/unreasonable/inconsiderate behavior. But you gotta remember: "Ignore 100% of what a WW says and 50% of what she does."
Finally ... 14 hour work day? That in and of itself needs some consideration. You cannot G.A.L. if you have so little free time and you're so tired from work.
AndrewP, I wish you courage & strength. We all suffer together. I send you good vibes.
Gump... I agree with darkness... That exercise is pointless at the moment (meant to post that earlier when I first read it) and counter productive to APs goals. There are plenty of other ways to break from having WW being the center of the universe.
Hang in there Andrew we have all been there. That 24 hour rule is hard but a good one! It has saved me many a time. I blocked my WW on fb a year ago and never have been back on her page. I unfollowed anyone who might post something that would bother me. My thought was that there was no way in hell I am going to torture myself over this.
Thanks ForGump.
I know that there is a lot being written about my "FB obsession" and yes it is there. However I've unfollowed her some time ago and only see things that she has been tagged in or posted herself. This totals 7 posts since she moved out July 21st. Doesn't take much of my day (other than today when I went ballistic or agonize about her being in pain (2 posts)). I don't see the usual noise or traffic. So - perhaps not quite in "orbit" around her FB but as a stray meteor that I keep half an eye on in case it decides to take out the dinosaurs. With that said - W was the centre of my universe for a long time and yes it's taking me time to start spinning around my own axis especially with being in a limbo right now about the future direction. If you think that this is tough on me - it's probably (mind reading!) at least as tough on WW and I expect we both want some closure here.
Actually I don't expect any discussion from WW much less reasonable ones. The last contact I had with her before this "explosion" was about a real one in the village (no one was hurt) and was of an FYI nature. Ignoring those I've not discussed anything with her since she moved out July 21st. This particular post was one by one of her friends who tagged her in it. This friend doesn't like me at all and I can easily imagine this friend "teasing the trolls". I looked back to what I sent WW and it was terse, to the point and then stopped. No fishing for details and only a tiny bit of "oh poor me". The slightly over-the-top and immediate reaction by WW made me (mind reading emoticon) think that she agreed that the post could be taken the wrong way. Surprising that she implied that her secret is not out among her own friends including this one - not going to mind-read / speculate about that right now. I had assumed that they all knew and were cheering her on. Some "definitely" know because that's how I found out.
Part of my GAL because I have little "group activity" time is to form that group online. I've connected / reconnected with many neighbours and people from around the world and had a number of stimulating discussions with them - yes online and not IRL which fits more flexibly into my schedule. Sadly part of that "GAL" is right here which I think in most people's minds doesn't count but it IS an important outlet for me to release a lot of what builds up inside me in a safe place. I also try a lot to "pay it forward" here and will go visiting to other people's threads just like you do to lend encouragement so it's not all about my drama - more like community service. If WW ever comes back my dream would be to oblige her to become sandi3 but can't see that happening even if miracles do happen and she does come back.
The 14 hour day counts from when I leave the house to when I get home. I spend about 5 hours a day commuting. I work from home 1 day / week (Wednesdays) to catch up on sleep and historically spend more time with W. And yes - I've been trying to change that for about 3 years. I've been with this company for 13. I'm hoping to hear about a new higher paying much closer job in the next few days. I had been searching for a new job for some time ramping it up last summer which I think is part of W's problem. She hated the idea of me giving up a good paying job for something as mundane as GAL especially since it added risk. I was very close to a lower paying but more rewarding job when BD2 hit and I chose family and fixing my MR over work.
AP-- I think truly detaching means we have to unhitch our daily emotional awareness and cycle from our WW's. That's kind of a corny, philosophical point, not concrete, but I'm starting to think that kind of thinking would be helpful for me. You might call it a "top-down" approach rather than "bottom-up". Start w/ high level concepts, and work your way down into the details. I need to get to a place where my brain does not revolve around her, both positively and negatively....
There's so much I want to say... I don't know where to start! I'll try to keep it short.
"IS" she still thinking and trying to make up her mind?
Look at her actions: She moved out. You saw OM at her place. You saw her leaving her place with OM... she's clearly not hiding from him.
You asked us not to respond to your super long rambling post, so I'll leave that be.
This morning WW had received only 4 response comments to her call, 3 of which were from people who know she's moved out. One was her boss who just said "take care". The other two responses made me go "er?" because in my "trying to make sense of things" world - they didn't make sense. I suppose it depends on the narrative that she's been feeding them. The responses were for her to "be patient - things will work out". They believe they are waiting for something to happen to/for WW? Maybe they think the ball is in my lap? I'm pretty sure that one of them does not know directly about OM. I was tempted (but didn't) reach out to them to ask WTF? The last response was of strong support and love from a very sweet and very religious lady that has been a great friend to WW for many years who has no clue as to any problems. Probably made WW twitch a bit.
WW dutifully pressed "like" on each of the responses EXCEPT the one from her boss which again was just weird.
Maybe this post had nothing to do with your relationship.
-Boss said to take care and WW didn't "like" her post. Perhaps WW has applied for a new job?
-"be patient things will work out"... again, maybe she's waiting for a response on something not related to you. a job offer. a house offer.
-It's possible that these people know more than you think. WW could post something on FB and block certain people (you, your supporters, etc) from seeing it.
You can set yourself free at any time. You're choosing to wait around while your wife explores a new romance. No one said you had to sit around in the mud. In fact, we've all encouraged you to continue living your life and better yourself. Do you think your wife will want to come back to you if you've changed nothing about yourself? She obviously wasn't happy in your relationship... because if she was, she wouldn't have fallen in love with another man. It's not your fault that she cheated, but we all have things we can work on to improve ourselves. I know you've cut back on drinking. What else have you done for you? Any ideas what went wrong in the marriage?
I really don't know how others here with their WW in a secret A cope with it. I suspect the answer is "badly" just like me.
They find people who don't know their WW and spend time with them. This is why doing activities with new people is super important!! With new activities to focus on, people don't have as much time to mind-read about with their wayward spouse is doing/thinking.
How far away is the nearest town/village with people that you don't know? Perhaps you could explore new friendships there.
dream - I've traveled to other parts of the world and found people who knew W - only partly kidding. There are about 400 people living in our rural village if you count some of the smarter dogs. I'm working on reconnecting with my own extended family who are in the area that W largely cut me off from years ago and that is helping. I am also forming/rebuilding connections with the people around me in the community ignoring any relationship with W - this is my home and here I will stay. To attend "meet-ups" etc where there would be no possible connection with W is at a minimum a 3 hour round trip. People who live in urban areas have no idea how isolating and confining a rural area can be in times like this. They can also be loving and supporting and I get a lot of that. My family has been in this area for almost 200 years and our roots go deep as do my personal ones from living here, raising a family and being involved in the community. Prior to my current job I was an active volunteer who also served on the boards of directors of a couple of local charitable organizations. As a side note, even after over 25 years here W is still considered a bit of an "outsider" because she has no local family.
I would normally pick apart what you've written and respond to it but the reality is "I know - I'm doing the best I can".
I thought instead I would offer the perhaps minor update that I was planning for today instead.
Just as a side note for those who are keeping track - it's now been over 30 hours since I last checked on WW's Facebook page.
On the way home SIL#1 messaged me that she had seen that W had gone out for lunch with a friend on her FB feed. I thanked her and then asked her to only tell me things if it appeared that W was going into crisis, needed help, or was making some sort of significant shift like announcing OM.
The last week or so has been bad.
I spent some time last night with the "SIL Army" who were doing their honest best to be positive and support me. Before anyone starts - it wasn't a moaning session by any means with me sobbing and them all saying "there there". Just a bit of a group chat via Messenger where we chatted about my blow-up on Wednesday and gossiped a bit. I had a separate chat with SIL#1 who had a bunch of theories and analysis about W's state of mind. Earlier in the day a good friend and I that I haven't seen for 2 weeks spent a bit of time getting him up to speed.
Universally the message I got from them was "give up", "she doesn't deserve you", "you're only hurting yourself". The SIL added on - "if getting her back is what you really really want we'll support you in that".
It all came from a kind, loving place and does reinforce the principle of keeping these things quiet. I thanked them all very kindly.
Last night I told the SIL Army that we needed to change focus from "therapy" to "getting healthy". One SIL is still recovering from the death of her husband, one is trying to lose weight and fighting her own MLC, and one is a new mother. There's been far too much focus on my own pain and W and that's not making any of us better. I also told them that I needed to work more on living my life and that I needed to work harder on moving forward assuming that I would be alone. "Giving up" and starting the legal process was meaningless I said because it would make no difference to the reality and only add on stress as well as putting barriers between W and I that weren't helpful in any fashion. The only reason to start the legal process would be because W had decided to not come back and we needed to set each other free from those legal entanglements. I'm not sure that they agree because they see D as the logical closure and frankly have gone from being somewhat sympathetic towards W to being very very angry at her.
This morning getting ready I felt the same sort of internal "pain" that I had a week ago when I went into crisis. I broke down twice on the 2 1/2 hour drive into work and had to pause until it went away. Fortunately no suicide thoughts today. I was thinking to myself - is this what "giving up" feels like? Should I really pull the trigger?
By the time I got to work I had my sh@t together somewhat. Fortunately nobody here really understands what I do (senior technical resource) so as long as I respond to emails and produce the odd thing everyone thinks I'm working optimally. I actually just got an "attaboy" from one of our senior divisional VPs. My DR called me and told me that I can eliminate yet another of the blood pressure meds I'm on which was great news and immediately announced on Facebook to great acclaim. I will confess that one of the reasons I did that was so that W would see that I continue to get healthier and have found joy but also from my rather obvious need to publish my thoughts and feelings to the world.
Later this afternoon I'm going to meet with a female (platonic) friend for dinner. I was originally worried that she might have had designs on me because she had a bit of hero worship going on when she used to work for me - still calls me the best boss she ever had.
This weekend I have the usual errands etc but will change my grocery shopping to Saturday from Sunday so that I don't have to drive by W's house on her day off when OM might be visiting. The plan as well is to finish the purge of W's things from the MBR except for one family portrait and to work on getting the kitchen into shape. After she stripped things from the house including much of the decorating there was still lots of stuff left that I intend to move around. I'm also going to spend a bunch of time reading the homework that Cadet prescribed from the MLC board.
I think I may have turned a corner here. It's been a painful turn but it will result in a healthier AndrewP along with my SIL army.
Chest out, Balls down and "swagger".
That's quite a trip to go outside of your village. I don't blame you for not wanting to do that, but good to know it's a possible option, if needed.
I'm in the suburban area, so there's lots of choices of places to go to "get away."
This recent update of yours sounds much better.
I'm proud of you for telling SIL#1 to only tell you important things she sees on FB. Even better would be for her to tell you nothing as WW would certainly reach out to you if she wanted you to know. But this is definitely a step in the positive direction!
Changing the focus of your SIL army group is another promising, positive step. I hope you're all able to continue to shift the focus to getting healthier. It sounds like you all need support in one area or another. I wouldn't say you need to "give up" but rather, keep moving. As you said, work on living your life.
Congrats on eliminating a blood pressure medication! One less thing on your plate.
She obviously wasn't happy in your relationship... because if she was, she wouldn't have fallen in love with another man. It's not your fault that she cheated, but we all have things we can work on to improve ourselves. I know you've cut back on drinking. What else have you done for you? Any ideas what went wrong in the marriage?
dream - I missed this in my response and thought that it deserves some attention because this is something that I really really struggle with.
To be perfectly blunt - I still have no clue which is why I'm going to spend some time on the MLC homework. Nothing much really changed about me in the last 5 years (even beer drinking) or realistically the last 27. I was a loving, devoted husband who adored his wife just like I had been for the entire marriage. I took time and effort to compliment her, encourage her in whatever endeavour she undertook and to be a patient listener. I also gave her space and time to explore new friendships and experiences. It may seem a self-serving statement but those who know us would corroborate and would remark on how sickeningly we were in love even after all those years.
Even though there were really only about 3 times from BD1 that W ever talked to me about reasons all she ever said was:
- she couldn't put it into words (mostly before I found out about OM)
- she was uncomfortable being put on a pedestal
- she didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering at each other (we never had cross words for each other - I mean -
never - yes there was a conflict avoidance tendency in both of us) This was her main reason she stated for wanting to leave the MR.
- she said that being married to me made her a better person than she would have been otherwise and sometimes she wasn't comfortable with that
- she felt that I would sometimes talk down to her
- she felt that sometimes the compliments I gave her were sometimes forced
She told me after BD1 that she was writing out her thoughts in a hand-written journal (for which I mildly snooped and never found) to explain why she felt she needed to leave. No clue if this was a lie or if she still has them / is working on them.
WRT her parents. Her father was a wayward of epic proportions and her mother suffered through it. It was an open secret in the family. They are now in their late 80s stuck in a senior's home together and spend a lot of time complaining. They always did bicker a bit but once they started getting serious health problems about 3 years ago it got worse. 2 years ago there was a serious medical crisis for both of them and W ended up going at Christmas time for several weeks to act as a personal support worker for her mother attending to her basic physical needs. She came back from that changed, angry and bitter. Then she turned 50.
The only other thing is that a couple of years ago when the kids moved out and we both felt that the other was getting depressed (W was suffering badly from peri-menopause and empty nest, I with empty nest and with some problems at work) we both spent more time and effort trying to please the other. One key phrase that I absolutely hated to hear W say after BD1 was "if that makes you happy".
Now - prior to last summer - which is when she said she'd decided to leave and she started to distance herself from me, every indication was that she valued and appreciated me and the way I treated her.
For me, I'm now more independent, slimmer and better looking, have dropped (mostly) drinking beer. I've reconnected to people I care about and connected to new people both in social media and in real life. I'm making even more efforts to stay connected to our children who have now become "very" disconnected from W. She rarely reached out to them pre-BD and even less now. I try hard to find joy in each day. I'm still the quiet, kind, loyal, loving man with a quirky sense of humour that I've always been. Perhaps a "nice guy" but not a lot of a door-mat. I did turn into a door-mat post BD1 though.
Unfortunately even though I try to hide it from the world I'm also a very sad man with a lot of pain and anger which will make dealing with her if she tries to return difficult because her pedestal has turned into a pit. I think that's what my IC wanted me back early to deal with.
Just as a side note for those who are keeping track - it's now been over 30 hours since I last checked on WW's Facebook page.
Awesome AP! It sounds like the past day has been a good one for you. The conversation w/ the SIL army seems pretty healthy.
It's funny, but your discussions w/ them have made me wonder if I shouldn't contact Ws dad. She's told him, and I believe he'd be of the opinion her idea is not the best one. Merely thinking about it, and it's probably a bad idea, so leaving it alone for now.
For me, I'm now more independent, slimmer and better looking, have dropped (mostly) drinking beer. I've reconnected to people I care about and connected to new people both in social media and in real life. I'm making even more efforts to stay connected to our children who have now become "very" disconnected from W. She rarely reached out to them pre-BD and even less now. I try hard to find joy in each day. I'm still the quiet, kind, loyal, loving man with a quirky sense of humour that I've always been. Perhaps a "nice guy" but not a lot of a door-mat. I did turn into a door-mat post BD1 though.
All great changes AP! A strong man is someone who is there for his kids during a time like this. You've said before you weren't sure what changes you've made, but it seems like you have a firm grasp on them here!
Unfortunately even though I try to hide it from the world I'm also a very sad man with a lot of pain and anger.
I think this describes 80% of us here brother. We all know what you're going through and understand the pain/anger that is the residual effect of our WWs. Know that you are not alone in your feelings. I know that doesn't help to take it away, but there does seem to be solace in the knowledge that we're all in this together.
Regardless, I'm proud of you on the FB stuff! Moving in the right direction and I personally think that's one of the keys. Keep it up AP!
Andrew try reading the 5 languages to figure out where things might have gone wrong. I thought about my relationship a lot post BD to figure it out, she never directly told me, not even sure she knew.
Feeling a bit rough still today. The blows in the last 2 weeks that knocked me on my @ss still haven't been recovered from. I think a bunch of us here have had a tough few days recently.
Today I cleared the last of things associated with WW from my home office. The last thing to be moved was our wedding picture from where it has sat next to my weekly fresh rose and sculpture of Don Quixote into a desk drawer. I bawled my eyes out for 10 minutes over that.
I had a nice dinner last night with my female friend which included a couple of well needed hugs. She had recommended to me the aftershave I wear now (Polo Red) and smiled and sniffed her top to be sure that it smelled like me later. I worry some times that we may be getting in the neighbourhood of an EA and made sure to dial things back so that I didn't get drawn in. We spent most of the evening talking about her life and some of the challenges she is facing. Unsurprisingly we also talked about WW more than I really wanted - she wanted to "get up to date". Just like everyone else she wants me to give up, file for D and move on. I'm so torn but can't see as doing that makes any real positive difference other than putting everything out in the open. I can't say right now if that is a good idea or a bad idea. It's probably an idea that I need to stop thinking about. To "tease the trolls" I "checked in" on Facebook to the restaurant as "dinner with a friend" and entered the receipt into our cloud based book-keeping as "dinner with [friend's name]". WW knows of [friend] and that she's been a big help to me. Before the 2X4s come out - I would have done this exact same thing pre-BD.
About a week ago I ran into one of my neighbours that lives around the corner almost exactly between where WW and I are living who gave me a cheery greeting and on a whim added her to my Facebook. We had the usual sort of online neighbourly interaction including yesterday morning when she pressed "like" on my update about getting off another med. I noticed in passing that she unfriended me later in the afternoon. WW has always "really" liked this person and I know that she goes into WW's store regularly. One important thing about this person is that she is the local constable. I had been waffling about contacting her semi-officially just to ask if she could keep half an eye on WW and on our house just to make sure that everything was safe. If WW requested the unfriending (she's done that multiple times after BD1) then perhaps that goal is achieved and the local police force is now watching out for her to protect her from her crazy manipulative husband. <insert sad laugh about her being able to continue to preserve her secrets>.
Well - I need to review the flyers and go and do my groceries today so that I don't drive by WW's house on her day off when OM may be there. I'll also do my own banking, pick up my fresh roses (chatting with the nice lady at the shop), get a 6 pack of beer and then head home. The weather is nice here so I'll be able to hang my laundry outside (been doing my own laundry plus general house laundry for 20+ years - WW couldn't be relied on to do it regularly so she did only her own). I'll leave my work clothes and ironing for tomorrow I think. For lunch I'll go to the bakery in the village and get a fresh scone and put on a smiling face for the owner who is a friend of both WW and I and then either cut the grass this afternoon or maybe go for a walk in the woods or take a book to the park.
Watching #thehip tonight. I know that WW has also watched at least some of it. It's a Canadian cultural connection. I reached out to S22/D24 about it earlier. Even though we are separated by geography and pain I wish we could be sharing this more closely together rather than WW being 3 blocks away (I presume - have not checked), S22 probably watching random YouTube videos and D24 preparing for her new deployment to Norfolk VA.
Hi to all my fellow Canuks the only one of whom I know is Buxom who I hope is doing better after her chemo,
Thanks Andrew. No chemo, done with that. Yesterday was hopefully my last biopsy. Feeling good but not good enough to do the community event showing the concert in the park.
Caught some of it on tv but had to get D from work so it cut into it.
Hang in there with your sitch. Looks like u are doing all you can to detach and carry on! Good on you! Have you read codependent no more? I'm in the middle and learning a lot about me.
AndrewP -first off, my WW having spent a great deal of her life in Ontario, I grew to be a fan of the Tragically Hip. Strange modus operandi in the Southern US, yet got me many a free beer from some hipster bartenders in Atlanta and Raleigh.
Anyway, those ass knocking blows...those ass knocking blows, that confusion. I am with you sir. Everyone wants you to quit, presumably b/c they would. I am struggling, but I will give a bit more time. Those women you are side talking to anyway, they like you being hard to get anyway.
With you all the way sir.
I just got back from my walk (4.75km). I took some nice pictures of wildflowers that turned out fairly well. I posted a quick update on the SIL army chat group about some of my adventures in housekeeping, my walk and nagged them about their own GAL activities. I thought I'd swing by here and post an update - nothing much "I believe" happened but you never know. I still managed yet another Russian Novelish epic though.
I changed the title of this post to It takes a village to raise an idiot because one of the more unique things with my sitch is the fact that I live in a small village where the interconnections between people are complex and tight and it is pretty much impossible to keep a secret. How WW has managed as well as she has continues to be a mystery to me. Before she moved out she was leading an at least double life - happily married W and secret A plus her demanding job that is central to her life and identity. Now since she hasn't announced that we're S and she's hiding from at least me she has a third layer on top of that.
I'm going to seem a bit Machiavellian here and that's not completely wrong. I need to be able to survive this both as an independent, self-sufficient man and as a member of my community. Even though I still need to protect WW's secret from being revealed by me, I have no problems right now on making it harder for her to carry on eating cake. I also have a very wide mean streak which rarely gets a chance to be exercised combined with a joy in upsetting the apple cart.
Yesterday had a couple of interesting bits. At the grocery store I saw a good friend of WW's but pretended to not recognize him (we've only been introduced once) I always had him down as a strong contender for OM2 if WW goes in that direction. When he saw me he immediately pulled out his phone and started texting like mad. The poor man ended up being in the queue for cash in front of me and packed his stuff up quickly and left. Not sure what's up there - might be nothing but it gave me some entertainment.
Yesterday as well I went to the bake shop around the corner to get a fresh scone for my late lunch. The lady who runs it who is a sweetheart, has been very kind, sympathetic and has not pried at all on what has gone on. I decided yesterday to open up to her a bit and asked if she knew that WW had left and asked what the village grapevine was saying. She looked relieved that she could talk and said that all she had heard was that WW had left. I added a few more details for her that a lot of stuff had been stripped from the house (I offered her the K-Cups that were left that I can no longer use), told her that I hadn't heard from WW since she left and that she didn't tell me or the kids where she was living. I added that I was very worried about WW and that she had been doing some things that I felt weren't safe for some time but didn't go into any details saying that it was her story to tell. I also said that I was very confused about her leaving and that she was welcome to come back at any time. The lady seemed to feel that WW was indeed acting crazy and suggested that I get a separate bank account. I responded that I didn't care about the money, that I wasn't going to cut her off and abandon her and that she was welcome to come home at any time. The village grapevine has now gotten a big dose of fertilizer and more eyes will be on WW and her movements. Even though these things can't be controlled once released, my own reputation as the abandoned LBH will hopefully be boosted.
Boy - I'm out of practice with beer. I ended up having "far" too much last night while watching the concert online, browsing the forum here and Facebook. I noticed WW online pressing "like" on the things posted by a common friend - the guy who introduced us in fact who very much is not in on any of the drama. I decided "screw it" and also liked the same things. I usually avoid that so that WW doesn't think I'm stalking her. I woke up around 6:00am not quite remembering how I got into bed and not wearing my CPAP mask. The hang-over wasn't too bad and I put my mask on and got another few hours sleep. When I woke up I had a horrible thought that I might have drunk-texted WW - a quick check reassured me that no I hadn't.
On my way back this afternoon from the bake shop with a fresh brownie (no conversation about WW) I ran into one of WW's best friends who I had thought had been cut off by her. I'm not clear on where she stands but had originally hoped that she would have been a voice of calm reason for WW in the early days. She undoubtedly knows more details about the sitch than anyone. I was very surprised when she stopped and asked me how I was doing rather than avoiding me. So - I told her. I didn't go into details or specifics but again repeated my line that I am struggling to get by, very confused and that WW is welcome to come home. [Friend] mentioned that she had seen WW 2 days ago and that she is struggling too. She was very surprised when I said that I hadn't talked to WW since she left (the contact I have had doesn't really count as "talking"). She was very apologetic for how everything had turned out and expressed regret. I didn't bother to hide much the fact that I was angry and that some of the anger was pointed her way. I wasn't rude or anything just tense and not friendly. Not sure how this will be translated when it gets back to WW but I'm sure it will. Oddly as I was crossing the street to my house she insisted on waving me across from her car (nobody except me walks here) Well - at least she would have gotten a good look at my new body which is now down 45lbs and I'm told that I look quite good.
So - if you've managed to read down this far in the novel - thank you for your time. I'm going to visit a few other threads and then re-heat up some chicken stew for dinner.
PS - We (I) get pretty wrapped up with DBing and doing things the "right" way while not being sure what that "right way" is all the time. I tend to make it up as I go along some days but am trying to be focused on the NC, GAL and doing a bit of advertising of the GAL. On the other hand I presume that is no WW forum offering them guidance, peer support based on experience. My own WW seems to have kept contact with all her pre-departure friends so that "noise" must not be a bother to her. She must be running blind though in uncharted territory (mind reading!). I just wish she'd make up her d@mned mind. Unless she actually intends to come back there is no rational reason why she hasn't asked for a S - she knows that I'd give it to her. Instead she keeps a shabby charade going and a piece of string tied around my b@lls.
I know that classic DB philosophy is to look strong, confident and happy. Here in my village that would probably backfire on me because it would look like I was happy to boot WW out. I "am" the victim here. I do make it obvious that I am moving on on my own though. I have no clue what WW sees / hears but strongly suspect that she is not at all detached from me - her forum must not preach that. Right now I have no interest at all in helping bake WW's cake and if people start looking at her with a less positive light, that's not my problem any more.
PPS - I just noticed today that there will be some road work going on for a while in front of WW's house. ALL the construction guys know her and probably know her car. Poor OM won't be able to visit his love nest too much. WW also can't be away from her house for too long because her dog is there and he doesn't travel well and a barky, smelly dog (who often has sh@t all over his @ss - long haired dog who gets the runs) isn't that romantic of a companion.
Buggerit. I just realized that I should have treated the interaction with WW's friend as a temp check and been more positive and pointed out the moving on / giving up aspects.
Oh well - probably no lasting harm done.
On a more positive note - my phone just beeped that WW had shared something on Facebook (need to figure out how to turn that off) AND I DIDN'T CHECK - Just swiped right and removed the notice. If it is important the SIL will let me know. Twitching a bit to know if my mind reading powers would tell me that it was related to me seeing her friend. They do live across the street from each other now. But I will not check
dude, you are in overdrive. Slow down. Don't do stuff just to get a reaction from your W. Your last posts are full of your actions to invoke a reaction from your W. You really got to stop doing it.
And no, that was no temp check...
Stay strong buddy...
So hard not to over analyse everything! I asked the same question about my H asking my D questions about how I was and what I was up to etc. Thought that might be a temp check but it could just be him finding some common ground conversation to have with her.
I think I hate the whole temp check issue it is really confusing and causes hopes to be raised/dashed. From now on I won't question if it is or it isn't until one of the more experienced DB'ers points it out!!
Andrew... Ya gotta stop with the FB... It is going to drive you crazy. Did you really unfollow her?? If you did, you wouldn't be getting notifications on things she shared or liked. If I were you, in all honesty, I would block her for your own sanity. I did that with zero regret. You live in a small town, anything you do will get back her. People love drama... If they see you doing great, someone will be very excited to let her know.
Don't do stuff just to get a reaction from your W. Your last posts are full of your actions to invoke a reaction from your W. You really got to stop doing it.
Vapo - Er - nope. I'm not expecting a reaction from her. Not sure how you're seeing that. Her friend approached ME and I kept the conversation as short as possible. Exposing a bit of the truth at the bakery was intended more to improve my own reputation and I have no expectation that anything there will get back to her. The other rambling about the possible increased risks of discovery of her A is more about Schadenfreude.
Andrew... Ya gotta stop with the FB... It is going to drive you crazy. Did you really unfollow her?? If you did, you wouldn't be getting notifications on things she shared or liked.
pinn - yes I did unfollow her quite a while ago. There's a setting somewhere in Facebook that seems to think that i want to be notified if my wife shares something but her likes I don't know about at all except when we hit the same post. I was giving myself a high 5 for not looking at her share which I haven't done since last Wednesday. It gets easier each day but is still something I struggle with.
I also said that I was very confused about her leaving and that she was welcome to come back at any time.
she was welcome to come home at any time.
Is this really truly how you feel? Your W has been off living as a single woman doing lord knows what with OM and youre cool with just letting her waltz in whenever she wants?
Im not suggesting that you stop loving her or whatever. Im not suggesting that you should throw her on the street. I know you have a list of things that you would need in order to R. Lets say she isnt willing to do them? Then what?
My point is that you should stop saying that she can come back at any time. I think you will be much better served personally (such as not feeling like shes dragging you around by the balls) by being "open to a discussion about reconciling" were it to come to that. I think thats a very different mindset from "the door is always open".
To attend "meet-ups" etc where there would be no possible connection with W is at a minimum a 3 hour round trip.
You said you drive to work 2 1/2 hours each way. Theres no decent sized city where you work or in between that you could stop periodically for some kind of meet up? My main GAL events are ~45 minutes from my house, but they are often held near-ish to where I work so I can do that a few times a month without too much trouble.
I would think one late night a week would be doable? Or even renting a motel room once or twice at first to help with the drive might be helpful.
I had a nice dinner last night with my female friend which included a couple of well needed hugs. She had recommended to me the aftershave I wear now (Polo Red) and smiled and sniffed her top to be sure that it smelled like me later. I worry some times that we may be getting in the neighbourhood of an EA and made sure to dial things back so that I didn't get drawn in. We spent most of the evening talking about her life and some of the challenges she is facing. Unsurprisingly we also talked about WW more than I really wanted - she wanted to "get up to date". Just like everyone else she wants me to give up, file for D and move on.
Sounds like this woman has interest in you. Im not sure you should be continuing this sort of activity unless you are ready to move on.
Ive never hugged a platonic friend who then smelled her shirt to see if it smelled like me.........
Sounds like this woman has interest in you. Im not sure you should be continuing this sort of activity unless you are ready to move on.
Indeed. There have been a few "danger Will Robinson" moments with her like this at least on my end. I actually raised the subject with her some time ago and she assured me that was far from her mind. But yes - while she has been a great source of support and comfort I am keeping my distance a bit farther now and eliminating any emotionally charged discussions. I think that it all started for her from a kind place for a person she admired who was in pain. Geography means that we can only visit on fairly rare occasions - this was the 2nd since BD and I've reduced the email/texting traffic. <Long irrelevant story about the aftershave redacted.>
Andrew, as a woman I can tell you that there are a lot of games desperate women play that can suck you in while they say, "who me? I wouldn't do that, I didn't say that... " etc. They count on the guy trusting what they say. They are all lying Skanks out for what they can get. Who poachs husbands in marital conflict? amoral people, that's who. Is that who you want to spend your time?? They prey on vulnerability. I wouldn't trust anyone who pursues you until you are divorced and you are ready to move on. No judgement here Andrew, I just wanted to caution you that the poachers are up to no good for you emotionally.
...and D24 preparing for her new deployment to Norfolk VA.
Small world AP, we're actually about an hour or so from there.
On the FB stuff, you know my thoughts. Nothing good can come from it. Just cut the ties already!
On everything else, sounds like you had a busy time this weekend! I can understand how it's hard to keep that secret, especially if you think it's helping her facilitate things.
I also said that I was very confused about her leaving and that she was welcome to come back at any time.
she was welcome to come home at any time.
Is this really truly how you feel? Your W has been off living as a single woman doing lord knows what with OM and youre cool with just letting her waltz in whenever she wants?
Im not suggesting that you stop loving her or whatever. Im not suggesting that you should throw her on the street. I know you have a list of things that you would need in order to R. Lets say she isnt willing to do them? Then what?
My point is that you should stop saying that she can come back at any time. I think you will be much better served personally (such as not feeling like shes dragging you around by the balls) by being "open to a discussion about reconciling" were it to come to that. I think thats a very different mindset from "the door is always open".
Darknes, as always, is pretty spot on here. I find myself at a point in my situation where I'm probably going to have to frame things to my WW. It seems very hard to get away from the "open arms" policy we'd lean towards. But again, it's about not framing yourself as "Plan B" and showing her that you may, in fact, not be there if she tries to come back (which actually may be true).
Don't take Darnes' recommendation for GAL activities too lightly. They will definitely help you get through the hours. Your brain and body need a rest from all these stressors.
Hang in there brother!
Is this really truly how you feel? Your W has been off living as a single woman doing lord knows what with OM and youre cool with just letting her waltz in whenever she wants?
darknes - Even though this may well get back to WW the audience for these discussions wasn't her. She is "well aware" that there are conditions in her returning - if that ever happens. She did see a draft copy of my list of items for reconciling (dropping OM and being patient mostly). The audience here is my neighbours and in this case a person who has a definite influence over WW. It may be foolish and childish but I don't want to be seen as the "bad guy" here which is why a "very" small number of neighbours (3) have heard this line. This 4th person - WW's friend - perhaps I didn't handle that in the very best way but I wanted her to know that if WW was still undecided - which she indicated was the case - that the door wasn't closed.
"open to a discussion about reconciling" would sound contrived and is far more detail than I should be passing out. If nothing else the next time that they talk WW will hear how good I look and that the door isn't closed. She will also perhaps hear that I have some anger which will reinforce the anger she heard last Wednesday and know that the path home wouldn't be easy if she chooses to walk it. If I had answered "doing fine - not missing WW at all" I doubt that would have induced WW to panic and come rushing home - I could be wrong of course and I'm trying to quit mind-reading.
Yes - perhaps STFU would have been the "best" strategy but I don't see what that would have accomplished beyond looking petty and rude. "Fine" would have been a lie to this person who knows so much.
On a positive note - I very much did not ask WW's friend how she was doing. That information was volunteered and I believe that I showed no interest in it. Mind you I was still processing the shock first of being talked to and secondly that this friend was still in WW's inner circle. Just like you told me at the time - the noise she cut out was me and perhaps nobody else.
I've been re-reading the notes on the forum about how to have the discussions with the
scared squirrel if she turns this way to try to burn them into my brain and make them my own for
if it ever comes to pass that WW actually talks to me. Realistically it has now been 1 month and 1 day from the last time she did. I really feel like giving up and just calling my L more and more each day.
Andrew, as a woman I can tell you that there are a lot of games desperate women play that can suck you in while they say, "who me? I wouldn't do that, I didn't say that... " etc.
<snip>
I just wanted to caution you that the poachers are up to no good for you emotionally.
Buxom - thank you for the perspective. Actually she went on a bit of a rant herself about women who prey on men who are recently widowed (like OM is). I honestly don't think that she is pursuing intentionally but I'm putting up some barriers and dialing back the contact and especially the emotion. She's of about my age and had a bad time (I don't know details) with a man about 5 years ago that completely wrecked her life. I gave her her first real job after that happened and helped her build the skills she needed to go on to a promising new career. Not charity on my part - she had the soft skills I was hiring for and was offered by the agency at a bargain price but she has been very grateful to me ever since. Just like with WW falling for OM - these things can certainly happen when you don't plan on it and are least expecting it.
I know myself to be in a very fragile, vulnerable position right now and am worried about being drawn into something that isn't right for me (or for the other too). Odd as it seems in some ways I am grateful to WW for removing herself from the MBR and eventually our home on her own. It's made detaching and what healing I've managed to do a lot easier than it would have been otherwise. I feel for people like yourself who don't get that distance and are having to cope with their sitch while in a stew of bubbling hormones and emotions with a fire underneath it all. That's also why I worry so much about handling a possible return of WW and standing firm on not letting her walk all over me.
Agreed.
I guess another possible scenario is women like to rescue and a vulnerable man can make them feel helpful and then emotions get involved. All so tangled. Yes my sitch is difficult but last night was a bit of a breakthrough. I hope?
Andrew,
you going out of your way letting your W know that the door is still open, is actually the worst thing you could do. It goes against the common sense, but I'd be willing to bet the farm on this one.
It just reinforces her belief that Andrew is waiting and being a good Plan B if OM situation should fail. Do you really want to be anyone's plan B? She needs to feel the loss of you... Plain and simple...
I guess another possible scenario is women like to rescue and a vulnerable man can make them feel helpful and then emotions get involved.
Buxom,
That's an interesting observation.
you going out of your way letting your W know that the door is still open, is actually the worst thing you could do. It goes against the common sense, but I'd be willing to bet the farm on this one.
It just reinforces her belief that Andrew is waiting and being a good Plan B if OM situation should fail. Do you really want to be anyone's plan B? She needs to feel the loss of you... Plain and simple...
Well - that horse had already left the barn when I got on my knees and begged her to stay on the day she left. The only way that this will get back to WW is indirectly though through heaven-only knows what sort of distortion via rumour and gossip and her friend's own agenda.
How do you suggest that she "feel the loss"? I'm already NC and essentially have been since she walked out a month ago. She's seen the piles of boxes of her stuff growing in the front porch. She's seen me having GAL activities. Having given up mind-reading I can't really "know" what she's feeling. On the other hand I get chastised here regularly for trying to manipulate her.
If I had answered "doing fine - not missing WW at all" I doubt that would have induced WW to panic and come rushing home
Hmmmm....I doubt that she would come running home. But I think it is more likely to have the effect you are looking for. I get that you dont want to be "the bad guy", but I dont see how you living an awesome life makes you the bad guy.
My point in bringing this up wasnt about the exact conversations you had, it's more about your attitude. Youve been saying this "door is open" crap to several people. It leads me to believe it isnt for show, but it's really how you feel. And thats what worries me. If you are feeling like the door is always open, then there will never be any incentive for your W to walk through it.
How do you suggest that she "feel the loss"?
AndrewP,
Donate her stuff to charity.
My point in bringing this up wasnt about the exact conversations you had, it's more about your attitude. Youve been saying this "door is open" crap to several people. It leads me to believe it isnt for show, but it's really how you feel. And thats what worries me. If you are feeling like the door is always open, then there will never be any incentive for your W to walk through it.
darknes - Can I induce you to come up to Canada and become my new IC / DB coach? I've got a spare room or three you could stay in.
doodler could send us his peanut butter cookie recipe. I think WW left a couple of board games for quiet evenings but I'm not 100% sure on that - haven't gotten to that part of the house in my purge / cleanup.
As usual you've hit the nail right on the head. I know that DBing is counter-intuitive on this topic but in my heart the answer is in fact "yes" - the door "is" open. I know that for the sake of any future MR that there is a need for her to have the right passwords for that door to be opened and that there will be a maze for us both to navigate to find each other again and that I can't be weak on that. If I decided for myself that that door was closed then I wouldn't be here. The fact that there are passwords and a maze is not relevant to anybody that I'm talking to even if those words eventually find their way to WW who already knows this anyway. I have told 4 people total (realistically 2) where it could conceivably get back to WW and only once very briefly to each of them about the situation with the door. I'm not going around the village moaning "oh I wish WW would come back to me" so lets not take this out of proportion please.
Where perhaps the struggle comes for me in this place and at this time is the fact that I am currently allowing WW to control the agenda and timeline. I have no clue at all if she's living a life of wild abandon with routine dalliances with OM or OM2,3,x. Nor realistically does that matter. What I do know is that she told both myself and S22/D24 that she needed some time and space to decide where her heart lies. In the meantime she is still publicly carrying on as married but living apart and keeping her A as secret as possible. The only cake being eaten is her knowing that she has a Plan B and me hoping that I become her Plan A. If she wanted to S she could easily have started that. While I could at any moment start the D process it would not be being true to my marriage oaths, my family or myself to not give her a reasonable amount of time to decide that. From what little the village grapevine feeds me back, she is struggling badly so I actually do believe in my heart that she is torn and trying to decide. I currently struggle every day in my heart to know what "reasonable" might be but feel that 1 month isn't reasonable enough yet. I won't bother to debate about the preceding 5 months.
I'm failing to get the connection though between what I feel in my heart right now and anything that would incentivise WW or manipulate the timeline for her own journey. She doesn't talk to me nor I to her. The little communication that has happened since she left can't be considered "talk". One thing that has been made clear to me via multiple 2X4 strikes - several delivered with great care by yourself is that I cannot influence or manipulate her. I know that I sob and weep and do the "poor me" thing here a lot but the rest of the world sees a man who is moving on and living his life as best as he can alone. It's not perhaps the awesome life you want me to have and that yes, I should want for myself but it's getting better each day (most days). The sort of healing that I have to do will take time and I'm trying to do it as privately as I can outside of these electronic walls. Yes, perhaps the interaction with W's friend could have happened better but I'm not going to spend 2000 times the length of that interaction agonizing over what I should have said / done when really - I have no clue.
Other than moving forward on my own as best as I can and not living for the hope that WW will turn towards me there's really not a lot that I honestly think that I can do right now. I still wish for her to come home and for us to be a family again but am struggling more and more each day with wishes that don't come true.
you going out of your way letting your W know that the door is still open, is actually the worst thing you could do. It goes against the common sense, but I'd be willing to bet the farm on this one.
It just reinforces her belief that Andrew is waiting and being a good Plan B if OM situation should fail. Do you really want to be anyone's plan B? She needs to feel the loss of you... Plain and simple...
Well - that horse had already left the barn when I got on my knees and begged her to stay on the day she left. The only way that this will get back to WW is indirectly though through heaven-only knows what sort of distortion via rumour and gossip and her friend's own agenda.
How do you suggest that she "feel the loss"? I'm already NC and essentially have been since she walked out a month ago. She's seen the piles of boxes of her stuff growing in the front porch. She's seen me having GAL activities. Having given up mind-reading I can't really "know" what she's feeling. On the other hand I get chastised here regularly for trying to manipulate her.
I am so glad you asked me that...
First of all there are 2 things you should be aware beforehand:
1. I understand you buddy, I really do, I've been you 2 years ago, so do not even try telling me that I do not know how you feel. I DO! I made same mistakes as you made (and are making)
2. Anything and everything said to you is directed in a loving way towards you. Even if you perceive something as an attack on you, it is not. It is what on these boards is known as a 2x4, a loving and gentle whack on the back of your head to get you on the right track.
You already made the classical mistakes of begging, pleading and reasoning with the W. It did not work, you never stood a chance there. I did the same...
Your W saying that she is confused and torn is just blowing smoke up your ass. She is lying. Plain and simple. She does not want to be with you and she's made that clear by leaving (and of course firetrucking another man (sorry to be blunt here buddy)). She just does not want to come off as a censored to her circle of people, so she is making her stories to fit the facts. Do not go believing for one second that she is sorry in any shape or form. You have to realize that there is a fresh new fire lit up under her soul and she feels alive and better than probably in decades. Do not believe her. Her OM is her soul mate (in her eyes) and she could not care less for you...
You have to shelve your feelings for your W and get on with your life. That is the ONLY way to go.
Are you familiar with Sandi's rules? If not, do find them, print them out and laminate them for daily studies.
It [censored] buddy, but through it you must...
Stay strong buddy..
How do you suggest that she "feel the loss"?
AndrewP,
Donate her stuff to charity.
Doodler has a point. What do you think about asking her to get the rest of her stuff out of your house? (or making a kind and charitable donation!) I know it goes against your thoughts that the home is always open to her to come back to, but it would probably go a long ways towards your detaching were you not looking at those boxes every day.
You have to shelve your feelings for your W and get on with your life. That is the ONLY way to go.
Vapo - I do believe that you think that these words are meant in a caring way - even the ones that the board automatically censored. Yes, I have read Sandi2's "rules" and followed them as best as I can. Yes I did beg and plead especially before I found this board many many months ago. Yes I did beg and plead one night, one last time when she walked out of my life.
If I were to believe what you are saying then I would give up right now, file for D and move on cursing her name to the heavens as I did so. There would be no hope for any reconciliation and the destruction of my family would be on my hands.
Now I got into trouble for this before and ended up leaving the forum for a while in disgust and anger, but I don't believe you. I know you mean well but I hate to say it you are a random person on the internet who may or may not have posted on my thread before but seems to have shown up today for some reason. I've gone back and read some of what you have posted for others and there seems to be a consistent thread of negativity, anger and spew.
Perhaps OM is her "soul mate". Perhaps she doesn't care for me. How can you - a random person on the internet who has had their own pain - reading your past posts it didn't turn out well either, be so very definitive and know this so completely when her own best friend told me that she didn't know this herself. And trust me - that person would have gloried it all over me if she did. You are not a person with whom I wish to debate this matter. I have no desire to be dragged down to your level of negativity and bile.
Trust me "buddy" - I've heard the "GAL", "give up", "she's a censored" thing many many times. I'm still standing, but barely so please please please - unless you have something more helpful to offer than profanity, smoke and platitudes, please be quiet and let the people who are actually trying to help and sympathize have their say.
Doodler has a point. What do you think about asking her to get the rest of her stuff out of your house? (or making a kind and charitable donation!) I know it goes against your thoughts that the home is always open to her to come back to, but it would probably go a long ways towards your detaching were you not looking at those boxes every day.
But - it's a doodler point, not even a complete doodle. The boxes themselves aren't really a problem and I'm slowly filling more as I can find the strength to do so. Seeing them actually helps give me strength in my detaching because for me it is something tangible I am doing to move on.
Since she passes by the house regularly I have no doubt that she sees them. If it comes to pass that she leaves completely and I still have her stuff then I'll make arrangements for disposal. In the mean-time I'm sticking with the no contact plan. It's probably best for both of us (I think?) to not be pushing her on anything right now. I don't want her to feel that I'm pursuing her. If the sight of stacks of boxes don't make her realize how close she is getting to losing me then the absence of them won't either.
lt0402 - I wish I had an edit button. I didn't cover your point about the house being open for her to come back to. Legally I cannot deny her access to the matrimonial home, it's contents or any other matrimonial or joint assets. If I were to dispose of any matrimonial property I could be held liable for it.
"Welcome to come home" is a different topic altogether even if the words are similar that I hope I covered earlier that involves passwords and secret mazes. I just need doodler to stop fussing with the patina on his garage doors and build me a giant boulder and some snake-faced gods.
As I said I have no desire to be intrusive. I will only say the following and then leave you to your business...
1. No where have I said your W was a "censored". She is a deeply troubled human being in a lot of pain. I meant that it is her pain and she has to find her way through it. You cannot help her. You can't.
2. No where have I said Give up. I said get on with your life and heal, no where have I said you kick her to the curb and start any type of a new relationship.
3. I am sorry you see my posts as bile. I prefer to think of them as honest and BS free...
4. Standing is not in case your W decides to come back, standing is for you to heal...
5. I have come to realize that some things I bestowed on you were probably too advanced for the stage you are in, so I do apologize...
Sorry buddy, best of luck to you, this is my last post to you...
Andrew.... Vap does have a lot to offer.... Maybe go reread his posts when your mind is in a better place and focus on message. I've missed him personally.
The biggest problem I see for you at the moment (even though you deny it) is that you are doing things to get a reaction... Plain and simple. Most of us have done it... I know I have. How about moving her crap to the basement or some where out of site? Stick to normal pre BD FB activity (I still say unfriending or blocking is best for your own sanity). Be cordial and up beat to WWs or mutual friends but don't get into the relationship issues. Everything will get back to her in a natural way... Trust me... Just let it flow.
I've never seen anyone on any thread mention give up on those forum. That's not the point and not what anyone is saying.
I was going to respond to the prior posts but I need to calm down and move forward. I have no place in my life for negativity, spew or profanity and am deeply offended and saddened to find it here which should be a place of support and healing. Or perhaps I'm just not "advanced" enough.
The only thing I'll say is pinn - yes I've heard it lots enough already - no need to beat those drums any more - Facebook and boxes are not a problem right now. It's all under control, not an issue for me so let's all stop re-hashing it and digging it up again and again and no I don't want to go through explaining how I'm dealing with it for the 10th time.
Now for something completely different.
A bizarre thing happened today when I got home. Someone was by the house and watered the flower beds within a 1/2 hour of me getting here (???) No clue who did it or why especially since the flower beds were already so wet that there was a mushroom growing in them. Whoever did it knew where the hoses etc are and didn't come into the house because the security system didn't go off.
Weird.
We are all at different places and different perspectives and tolerances. Take what you need and leave the rest. It's a reminder for me too and the line is from alanon. Hugs to you.
Thanks Buxom. I'm too stubborn to back down when confronted. It's one of my characteristics that always worried W especially since I never cared who I was up against.
I hope your new lump is nothing much - I was going to post on your thread - you're in my thoughts - hugs back at you too.
My lunch is made and time to wrap up the dishes and face a new day.
The only thing I'll say is pinn - yes I've heard it lots enough already - no need to beat those drums any more - Facebook and boxes are not a problem right now. It's all under control, not an issue for me so let's all stop re-hashing it and digging it up again and again and no I don't want to go through explaining how I'm dealing with it for the 10th time.
Andrew... my man.... you are the one who constantly brings up FB and the darn boxes. You can ignore all of the examples if you want, that is fine, but did you get the point of the post? It is really meant to help you. Just
Many of us are able to guess (accurately) what your wife is up to because we've gone through the same experiences ourselves. We can see from the outside what is going on and it's much easier for us because we aren't in the middle of it all with emotions involved.
As for facebook, go to her page, scroll over "friends" and uncheck "get notifications." That will stop facebook from notifying you every time she does something.
Many of us are able to guess (accurately) what your wife is up to because we've gone through the same experiences ourselves. We can see from the outside what is going on and it's much easier for us because we aren't in the middle of it all with emotions involved.
As for facebook, go to her page, scroll over "friends" and uncheck "get notifications." That will stop facebook from notifying you every time she does something.
With respect to what my W is up to, going into imaginary details of her having sex with OM is extremely unhelpful to my mental state much less using profanity and rudeness to "make their point". Calling me "buddy" doesn't make it all better. Realistically it makes absolutely no difference to ME which is what this is really about right now other than adding further stress and pain on to a man who is already in a very fragile state. It certainly doesn't strengthen my resolve to stand firm.
With Facebook - For once and for all PLEASE - I did that already quite some time ago. Can we PLEASE stop now?
I'd really not want to back away from here again but if people keep re-iterating things THAT I ALREADY KNOW AND HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED AS BEST AS I CAN I fail to see how this is at all helpful to me.
We've now already consumed multiple pages on my thread with this crap. How about we all move on now - OK?
Sorry you are feeling frustrated and annoyed with the people coming to your thread to help.
What do you want to talk about?
AP, we are all here to support you brother. I'm sorry that it's been rough lately, both in your situation and here on the board. We really do want to help you, and I personally am extemely appreciative for the help which you've given me.
Hang in there brother and keep the venting and updates coming here!
AndrewP,
Not long ago you gave us all a bad scare. I remember tossing and turning in my bed that night; I lost a lot of sleep worrying about you. WE CARE ABOUT YOU!
A quote from the movie Vertical Limit:
"Don't mind her. She's French-Canadian. Some days she's Canadian. Can be quite pleasant. Today she's obviously French."
You're Canadian for sure. Almost all of us are French on occasion, but that's because we become frustrated. We've been through the stuff you're going through and we don't want you to make the same mistakes.
(Disclaimer: I have a French surname so I'm assuming that makes it ok for me to disparage the French.)
Hi Andrew, I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated with recent postings....people do have different perspectives on the forum and sometimes I have to sift through postings to me to pull out what is helpful.
Hopefully, everyone can move forward from here. Where would you like to focus now my friend?
((((Hugs))))
:)x
darknes - Can I induce you to come up to Canada and become my new IC / DB coach? I've got a spare room or three you could stay in.
doodler could send us his peanut butter cookie recipe.
Im more of a double chocolate kind of a person.
I know that DBing is counter-intuitive on this topic but in my heart the answer is in fact "yes" - the door "is" open. I know that for the sake of any future MR that there is a need for her to have the right passwords for that door to be opened and that there will be a maze for us both to navigate to find each other again and that I can't be weak on that. If I decided for myself that that door was closed then I wouldn't be here.
One thing that has been made clear to me via multiple 2X4 strikes - several delivered with great care by yourself is that I cannot influence or manipulate her.
I think it's OK for the door to be open. I'd say you have gone from standing in the doorway looking out, to at least sitting in the room with a book. The next step is to walk into the other room. And then finally, to leave the house.
You might be thinking - what difference does it make? shes gone anyway!
Honestly, it isnt about her, it's about you. It's like staring at a pot waiting for the water to boil - it's agonizing! There are so many better and more useful things you could be doing. Go out, do some other things in preparation of dinner, and then come back in a few minutes and see if it's boiling. Yeah, the metaphor isnt perfect, because your relationship may never "boil" again, but thats kind of the point - watching it isnt going to make it boil any faster and you may spend the rest of your life 'waiting'.
So I get it that telling someone the door is "always open" isnt really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It isnt going to make your W come home sooner or stay out longer. But, what Im getting at is more a reflection of your inner feelings and mindset.
Where perhaps the struggle comes for me in this place and at this time is the fact that I am currently allowing WW to control the agenda and timeline.
Yes. I can see that clearly. It took me an incredibly long time to come to the realization that this wasnt a puzzle that could be solved. There isnt a string of if/then sequences that you can plug into an equation solver and come out with a neat and tidy result. If 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then R (it will take 7 months) -or- if 5 then 6 then 7 then 8 then D (it will take 4 months). It just doesnt work that way. Here's what you can control - the things you do today, the things you do this week. No - you cant plan everything that will happen for the next year, and I can see how that would be frustrating for a guy like you. But if you tighten your focus, you are in complete control of what happens.
So, think of it like this - instead of saying, "if R doesnt happen by Christmas, Im going to file for D", think "am I going to file for divorce this week?" As soon as the answer to that question is "yes", you can proceed.
The only cake being eaten is her knowing that she has a Plan B and me hoping that I become her Plan A.
So what is your Plan A? Given only what you can control, what is your plan?
Also, I think having you as a "Plan B" is quite a bit of cake. Think about all the risks you can take if you know theres a safety net?
Would you jump off a bridge naturally? What if you had a harness?
From what little the village grapevine feeds me back, she is struggling badly so I actually do believe in my heart that she is torn and trying to decide.
I dont think it's being "torn" so much as her own internal turmoil. You dont solve problems by running away. YOU were never her problem, so running away from you wont solve them. She hasnt hit bottom enough to be ready to face them yet, though.
Thank you everyone for pulling me back from the brink again. I feel compelled to respond when people post on my thread and having the same old garbage dragged up again and again was very frustrating for me when I want to put the past behind me and move forward. Thank you especially to Buxom, roist, lt0402, sotto and especially M. doodler and darknes. You've been the billy goats that have chased off the trolls.
doodler - even though I'm not resident in La Belle Province I have spent a bunch of time there on business and my French is good enough to talk about mining, swear and order beer - you don't really need much else at least in the north.
Despite the bow ties that I habitually wear I "am" generally a strong person who cuts an imposing presence and am capable of commanding a room. I don't back down when I personally or those I love are threatened which could generally be considered a good thing. It's been close to 30 years since I was last in a bar fight so I generally manage to keep it under control but certain local government departments have learned to dread a letter from me. I like to think that I am always opened to a reasoned argument which is why I'm willing to share my cookies with darknes. I will freely admit when I don't know the answers to a question or when I am wrong.
I will confess that this morning I had to leave the office yet again "to get a coffee" which I managed to turn into a 15 minute walk in the sunshine. Still don't quite have it together. Hopefully tomorrow's IC session will help. It frightens me on how fragile I've become. It took a second walk with a good friend who saw me weeping for me to be able to finish this post.
Now that I've backed further off from talking about my sitch with friends and family this is the only outlet I have to talk about my fears, hopes, theories and outright delusions and I'm grateful for the patience and support that has been shown to me. I hope that I've been able to pay it forward in some small fashion. I find that helping others often helps me more.
What do I want to talk about? Not much really which is why the noise was bothering me so much I believe. darknes very kindly has gone through my last post that had any real questions on it with some very supportive comments that helping with my resolve to keep standing. I feel perhaps that if I can have a crumb of hope that this will turn out OK then I can focus on me rather than searching for those crumbs. Every time I get knocked on my @ss which essentially happened to me here, I have to get back up, find that crumb and then I can walk forward. Maybe someday I can walk forward without the crutch of those crumbs but that someday isn't today.
I haven't much to add as darkness has some great pointers and sent some advise.
So just sending some love and support, I don't think it's wrong to hold out some hope of things working okay, after all, we are here to try and stop divorce from happening from our spouse. I think with constant work on ourselves, we will be just fine with or without our spouse, though for most of us, we would like it to be with our spouse.
Keep taking care of yourself, this is very tough. But hang in there and keep making baby steps forward.
Oh - and a big thank you to you Cherry who was there for me the one other time that I fell of the bridge. I call dibs on being an honorary grandpa to your wee baby when it arrives. I can them them stories about how their mommy protected me from the trolls and then fed me churros y chocolaté for my tea.
Haha oh you are very welcome. I might not be the most successful db-er. But I'm always on hand to offer support and send a little love!
Many of us are able to guess (accurately) what your wife is up to because we've gone through the same experiences ourselves. We can see from the outside what is going on and it's much easier for us because we aren't in the middle of it all with emotions involved.
As for facebook, go to her page, scroll over "friends" and uncheck "get notifications." That will stop facebook from notifying you every time she does something.
With respect to what my W is up to, going into imaginary details of her having sex with OM is extremely unhelpful to my mental state much less using profanity and rudeness to "make their point". Calling me "buddy" doesn't make it all better. Realistically it makes absolutely no difference to ME which is what this is really about right now other than adding further stress and pain on to a man who is already in a very fragile state. It certainly doesn't strengthen my resolve to stand firm.
I don't know what any of this has to do with what I said. I don't use profanity and I've never called you buddy.
With Facebook - For once and for all PLEASE - I did that already quite some time ago. Can we PLEASE stop now?
I'd really not want to back away from here again but if people keep re-iterating things THAT I ALREADY KNOW AND HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED AS BEST AS I CAN I fail to see how this is at all helpful to me.
We've now already consumed multiple pages on my thread with this crap. How about we all move on now - OK?
I'm sorry that I missed the post that said you figured out how to turn the notifications off. Just trying to help. I unfollowed a friend awhile back. It wasn't until yesterday when I did what I posted earlier that I stopped getting the notifications.
Good luck on your journey.
dream - sorry - the profanity comment was aimed at someone who I took to be a troll. You have always been a voice of calm reason for me. And
you can call me "buddy" if you want
Personally I don't know why you thought Vapo and others were giving you a hard time. No one told you to move on with someone else and no one told you to give up. Moving on doesn't mean to give up. It means to not obsess over your W and your sitch which is what you're doing. That's why you're getting sensitive. Everyone means well and have apologized where I didn't think they needed to.
In terms of the censored word, he just said "s*ck" which I'm not sure why is censored any way.
I get it that you're in a fragile state but you have to understand that not everyone has been able to wade through all of your 380+ posts. Losing control doesn't help your sitch.
AP...
First off...
You are gonna have to develop some way thicker skin to get through this....
IF....people here (who are trying to actually help you) can get under your skin that easily...
Then I can't imagine how quickly your spouse can get under your skin...
The possibility of YOU spiraling downward during a conversation would be much higher...
Water....Ducks back...
Second...
I'm not gonna preach the detrimental aspects of following her on FB...
There has been enough banter about the topic.
What I can say is...
Every second that you spend wondering about her, what she is doing, who she is with, is time that you take away from the really important parts of YOUR life....
Time away from you, time away from kids, time away of really finding out who you are, what you like..
If you are getting information that you don't like, and it is hurting you....
Then stop....
That simple....
Stop asking questions that you don't want the answer to
It's been a long time since I was were you are, and the pain fades in time.
I don't remember the pain as much anymore....
What I do remember, is what I did to stop the pain....
Yep - and can we all please keep from dredging up the past and mind-reading me and over analyzing and please move forward?
Yep - and can we all please keep from dredging up the past and mind-reading me and over analyzing and please move forward?
Ayep....
I didn't realize that you had such a firm grasp on whats goin on...
I'm not mind reading you, I am reading YOUR words...
Big difference there...
So what is it that you want to work on ??
Yep - and can we all please keep from dredging up the past and mind-reading me and over analyzing and please move forward?
AP - had not followed in a bit and during lunch thought I would read up on your sitch. We dump a whole lot of really honest thoughts and emotions down in this place. Talk it out man.
Here for you man, even if you are Canadian. (trust you to know I am joking, but in case not).
I didn't realize that you had such a firm grasp on whats goin on...
I'm not mind reading you, I am reading YOUR words...
Big difference there...
So what is it that you want to work on ??
Mach1/Mr. Bond
I never claimed to have a firm grasp on what's going on. I'm am lost, confused and scared. I'm just also very tired of being hit with the same things over and over again especially when it is done in an aggressive unhelpful fashion. I could go through your post and comments and that of Mr Bond in detail as I often do when people are kind enough to visit - and I especially have a lot of respect for vets like you that have chosen to visit my thread - but there is nothing to be achieved with that. I could go back through the last few pages of my thread that have been wasted by back and forth about absolutely nothing - but I'm not going to do that.
I'm dealing / have dealt with with those issues that you both and even Vapo brought up in many cases
months ago in the best way that I can. I do appreciate your visit and I hope you come to call again when there is something actually happening here. Yes perhaps my dealing with it is buried in the 300+ posts that I have made - and should perhaps stay buried. I know that it is the nature of a venue like this that comments and issues get cherry-picked because it is in fact difficult to get context and history and yes I could perhaps have a thicker skin. The past is what it is, the future is unknown and I'm just trying to live in the present.
What do I
not want to work on that are dead topics?
- Yes my wife is having an A
- Yes the A involves her having sex
- Yes I spent far too much time pursuing her before I found this forum
- Yes I obsessed over her FB but have now stopped some time ago
- Yes I can only fix me and not her
- Yes I need to do a better job on GAL
- Yes I need to detach further from my W who I haven't had a conversation with in over a month but is still always in my thoughts
- Yes I have stopped asking my adult children about their mother (surprised that chestnut didn't get dredged up)
- Yes someone came on to my thread in a very troll-like (to me) fashion, proceeded to use obscenities and was very rude and I defended myself from the perceived attack. I do consider [censored] to be a rude word BTW and the reply that was given in a condescending way that the comments he
bestowed were
too advanced for me I also found offensive. I am grateful that he (she) has said that they will no longer post on my thread.
What
do I want to work on? I'm working on surviving. I'm working on me. I'm working on detaching even further from W. Occasionally something will happen that I feel is worth journaling like my IC session today or when I hear a rumour or have a general observation or question but really - I'm not going to bother right now.
Now as the title of my thread suggests, I'm waiting for something to "actually" happen from W and in the mean-time taking care of myself and trying my best to grow into an independent human being while taking some of my own time like yourselves out of my day to provide what comfort and support I can to others who have gathered in our little club.
AP - had not followed in a bit and during lunch thought I would read up on your sitch. We dump a whole lot of really honest thoughts and emotions down in this place. Talk it out man.
Here for you man, even if you are Canadian. (trust you to know I am joking, but in case not).
Thanks CT1118 - I'm glad you weren't in the latest flotilla to try to invade Canada across the great lakes. Why oh why do you Americans keep wanting to invade us other than socialized medicine and great beer? At least this time we gave them a bus ride back rather than burning your capital down around you
There's not really too much happening other than for some reason my thread has received a huge amount of attention in part from people who I felt were being too aggressive. There has also been an outpouring of kindness and support that has been a great help to me.
I've been struggling a lot lately after having been knocked on my @ss recently by a few things including fighting trolls that may or may not have been imaginary. My IC this morning gave me some homework on Mindfulness to try to help me find a balance on my really bad days.
I'm glad that you are finding your own help from an IC and others and are using your rather large brain to think your way through this mud hole that we're all in together. I just read about your W's breakdown - from what I've gathered she's got a "long" way farther down the rabbit hole to go before she hits far enough down to change direction. But - it's a crumb and I think you and I both take those crumbs and stare at them under a microscope before inventorying and cataloging them. Just make sure you've got a big catalogue and are also looking to yourself which I know you are as I am trying to do myself. Just like your's, my W doesn't seem to be following the "script" in odd ways and I'm planning on spending some more time over on MLC doing some homework and research.
Well man, if you guys would just bring extra medicine when you come down here every March & April to swim off the beaches we are not using at that time we would not have to invade.
Yeah, I am reading more on the MLC site too - have been for a bit. Long roads over there, but there are some success stories too.