http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688566&#Post2688566Cnut, in relation to your last question, I'm never the one to call at bedtime. She is. She asks where I am when she is calling me and I'm not home, but I haven't really been saying anything (and she pretends she doesn't care).
Anyway, from yesterday until July 10 he will either be with me or my folks. On July 4th, my folks and brother will be coming over to celebrate my birthday and we'll be going to the pool and having supper. Then the week of the 11th, I will be taking him to and bringing him home from the new camp. I'm excited!!
Not much to report. WW picked up S this AM, we got him ready and didn't talk about much else. She mentioned "being in charge" is hard and that some new counselor isn't working out, but that's it. Didn't show any emotion. She Facetimed last night to say goodnight, I just put the phone on S and didn't say much of anything myself.
As for me, I'm doing well. I no longer instigate communication "how's it going" "how's S" and so forth. I don't offer updates or pictures, and I don't call. She sends pictures, asks how he's doing, Facetimes, calls etc. When she asks how he's doing I certainly don't answer immediately, and I usually stick to one/two word answers. When she calls to vent to me, I'm a lighthouse and try to validate. Also, I found out she put me on her restricted FB list so I did the same. Today I removed it. Why? It doesn't matter. It didn't help me, it was just tit for tat. If she wants to be petty and secretive that's on her. My decisions are based less and less on getting a reaction, and more on whatever I think is right for S and I.
I'm more content with myself and determined to create RSG 2.0, along with being the best Daddy possible. I'm learning more about what it takes to make a good, healthy R through all my reading (both here and in books). I keep reading Sandi's posts. Whenever I do, I notice she's still a foggy, selfish looney tune.
S and I had a great night. Every once in a while he'll say or do something where I think "W would love to see this!" and it just fades (rather than start the waterworks like it used to), so I end up celebrating his moments as if I'm 2 people. And he loves it. The speech therapy is really working, as he has been saying full, appropriate 6-7 word sentences now. It's amazing to hear and puts such a smile on my face. I'm enjoying every moment with him, and really want to make sure I show him what a man is supposed to be.
Great update RSG... Sounds like your doing well, and your DB'ng is doing great.
Great update RSG... Sounds like your doing well, and your DB'ng is doing great.
Thanks Coconut.
I'm definitely in a positive place. I know the things I could've done better in our M, and I'm reading about how to improve that for a future R or rebuilding this M if that's in the cards. Realizing WW is a different person than the one I fell in love with/married has helped tremendously. I always take her words with a grain of salt and look for actions. One positive from her is she has softened a bit. I just know I can't let my guard down....
Well DBers, Major Temp Check #2 just occurred.
She had texted a few times about what we were doing, and I gave her sparse answers about 30 minutes apart. She wants to come over tomorrow and spend time with both of us. She said we could go with her to the lake, or she would come here to the pool. I said, you can spend the afternoon (or something) with S as I need to run errands. He will be with me Sunday, as she needs to get to bed early for the Peachtree Road Race Monday. She'll start the Race around 7, and the drive in is nearly an hour from where she is now.
She Facetimed, and was bawling. Her face was all red and tears streaming from her eyes. She talked to S, but he was exhausted, drinking milk and then ran to the potty. She asked if she could speak to me, and we talked. Said the same junk "Are you happy?" and "I'm really proud of you." I didn't answer, just said I had a great day with S. She asked me to think about joining them tomorrow, and I said I'd think about it. Let her speak to S again, and she looked at him bawling saying "you look just like daddy, I love you so much" numerous times. "Don't forget that I love you to the moon and back." She also mentioned it's really difficult for her to take care of him.
She said her Dad told her to go to the gym and start running again. I didn't say anything, because her waywardness began with joining a new gym; but, I've always encouraged her to run more (prior to walking out of course). She's getting a bigger tummy, eating poorly and not keeping up with her appearance like she used to.
Told me she's getting an apartment near us in a few weeks, and said her Dad would help her. She'll likely ask me, but I can't see myself helping my W move into an apartment. Ha. That thought scared the devil out of me before, but her getting an apartment would be good actually. It would be great for S, but if anything positive were to happen we would be close.
That brings me to this: I felt sorry, but didn't react. I didn't fall into the trap like I did before. No tears, no fear, just emotionless and stuck to the topics at hand. I almost smiled, which is something I do when I'm nervous, but didn't. I've decided I need to hear 4 words before I contemplate any future with her other than being Son's Mom. "Will you forgive me" or some variation thereof. Yes, they are words not actions, but it would be a sign of humility from someone I know isn't very humble in nature. She hates to show vulnerability.
I thought of 100 reasons that could've sparked this. OP is getting sick of things, she won't see S for very long after tomorrow for the next 2 weeks, she said she had to fire someone, depression, missing S, missing me, blah blah blah. They all went through my head like a plane taking off a runway. I'm focused on being the best Daddy possible, and when he's not here being an even better me than I've ever been.
No expectations. No false hope. "Will you forgive me" or bust. That's my motto. I don't want a divorce, but I can't forget what she's done because of a couple crying episodes. I'm proud of myself!
Oh, and I didn't elaborate on why the apartment would be good. Not just in case anything positive happened, but it'll show her how difficult it is to live on her own without H to be there to do and pay for everything. To furnish everything as well, she owns nothing other than clothes and the few things her parents have likely given her. And she took S crib and converted it into a toddler bed. S would have a short ride between us rather than what he has to sit through now as well.
Just didn't want y'all to think I was hooking hopes on anything!
Well DBers, Major Temp Check #2 just occurred.
She had texted a few times about what we were doing, and I gave her sparse answers about 30 minutes apart. She wants to come over tomorrow and spend time with both of us. She said we could go with her to the lake, or she would come here to the pool. I said, you can spend the afternoon (or something) with S as I need to run errands. He will be with me Sunday, as she needs to get to bed early for the Peachtree Road Race Monday. She'll start the Race around 7, and the drive in is nearly an hour from where she is now.
She Facetimed, and was bawling. Her face was all red and tears streaming from her eyes. She talked to S, but he was exhausted, drinking milk and then ran to the potty. She asked if she could speak to me, and we talked. Said the same junk "Are you happy?" and "I'm really proud of you." I didn't answer, just said I had a great day with S. She asked me to think about joining them tomorrow, and I said I'd think about it. Let her speak to S again, and she looked at him bawling saying "you look just like daddy, I love you so much" numerous times. "Don't forget that I love you to the moon and back." She also mentioned it's really difficult for her to take care of him.
She said her Dad told her to go to the gym and start running again. I didn't say anything, because her waywardness began with joining a new gym; but, I've always encouraged her to run more (prior to walking out of course). She's getting a bigger tummy, eating poorly and not keeping up with her appearance like she used to.
Told me she's getting an apartment near us in a few weeks, and said her Dad would help her. She'll likely ask me, but I can't see myself helping my W move into an apartment. Ha. That thought scared the devil out of me before, but her getting an apartment would be good actually. It would be great for S, but if anything positive were to happen we would be close.
That brings me to this: I felt sorry, but didn't react. I didn't fall into the trap like I did before. No tears, no fear, just emotionless and stuck to the topics at hand. I almost smiled, which is something I do when I'm nervous, but didn't. I've decided I need to hear 4 words before I contemplate any future with her other than being Son's Mom. "Will you forgive me" or some variation thereof. Yes, they are words not actions, but it would be a sign of humility from someone I know isn't very humble in nature. She hates to show vulnerability.
I thought of 100 reasons that could've sparked this. OP is getting sick of things, she won't see S for very long after tomorrow for the next 2 weeks, she said she had to fire someone, depression, missing S, missing me, blah blah blah. They all went through my head like a plane taking off a runway. I'm focused on being the best Daddy possible, and when he's not here being an even better me than I've ever been.
No expectations. No false hope. "Will you forgive me" or bust. That's my motto. I don't want a divorce, but I can't forget what she's done because of a couple crying episodes. I'm proud of myself!
Wow. Well done.
Thanks guys.
Thank heavens for you guys and this board, or I'd be a wreck myself right now. As expected, if I had any expectations they would've been dashed. She's scared to death, but not asking for forgiveness. I got the "I'm so sorry for everything. That's all I can say I'm so sorry" multiple times. She was hopelessly bawling, but I kept my distance and just looked her in the eyes. She said she's actually getting an apt halfway between where she is now and home. It's fairly expensive there, but not my problem. It's not far, and better for S.
I just need to keep with the DB'ing. She's finally seeing the cost of her choices, but she talks to her Dad whenever she feels low and all he wants is for his child to be happy in the moment. So his advice is pretty crummy. She hasn't eaten in a few days, is gaining weight and doesn't feel well at all. These are things she admitted to me.
The rest of the day I'm sticking with no contact, unless she initiates, and answering sparsely. I didn't engage in any real R talk, I just let her go. One thing that struck me is what MWD, or possibly a poster (Sandi?) said about how difficult it is to get back together. We're at different levels of emotion at different times. She reminds me of where I was the day she walked out. Confused, not hungry at all, crying, devastated, a total wreck.
It's hard for me to wipe out my emotions at all times. I wanted to hug her, I was disappointed she still hasn't gotten her head straight, I wanted to hear "will you forgive me" so badly. But it was momentary instead of something I'm putting all my emotions into. There is a time for your heart to lead you, but right now I need to be lead by my head. My head says keep going, don't waver. Always be a lighthouse, don't be ugly, you're doing well.
I can't believe anything she said, except the apartment really, because it was driven by emotions. She's scared. Scared of living alone, scared of coming back home. Scared I'd throw the A in her face for years, scared of losing S. I can't program her mind, I can just keep being the best man I can be and the best Daddy in the world.
Well, I know I can't put my eggs in any basket but mine and S, but the tables may be turning as Sandi notes in her posts on WW. It could be another temp check, since I haven't been showing much interest, but it could also be her being afraid that she's losing me. She just text "You're really done with me, aren't you?"
Talk about something I WAS NOT EXPECTING!!
I thought hard about it. Wrote out a response, read it over and over, and wasn't happy with anything. Then she called, asking if I were asleep (because sometimes when S naps we take a short snooze). I just said no, and she said ok that she was just checking up on me. I ended up texting "I'm not really ready to make a major decision on anything right now."
Honestly, I just want to take things day by day and see what happens. She's an emotional wreck right now. I was tempted to ask about the A, but wasn't that stupid lol. I guess I just really need to stick to the DBing hard. I like where I'm going as a man and I love being a daddy. I'd LIKE my wife to commit and work for this family. In addition to the obvious, I'd be really proud of her growth as a person by fighting for this. I have no intention of filing for D anytime soon, but in all honesty I think separation has been good for me; my relationship with S growing by the minute, learning mental toughness, improving my social skills, investing in myself.
I went back and read your first post... You've come a long way my friend.
Couple of questions: (you wrote)
( I worked on a lot, and she admitted I had done pretty well and have become not just a good but great Dad. However, the underlying problems are still there obviously. )
What has been / needs to be done to work on these issues?
(She didn't really change, which I think is the main issue although I know I have lots of work to do too. She's unhappy, and says she has been for a while.)
Do you think she's worked on this? Do you need her to before you would take her back?
(Our communication has been horrible, we're quick to anger, know how to go for the jugular in arguments, and care too much about winning than solutions.)
Do you think you've improved on this? What about her? Communication is a common problem, can be worked on in MC if you get there, but does something need to be worked on individually?
(She is a constant worrier, and lives in the moment while I'm always thinking about long term.)
Do you see this changing? Does it need to?
(She obviously needs to find herself, and says our son deserves 2 happy parents. I agree with her fully here. She has also said it's too late to work on things, and I refuse to accept that. I think there are a million ways we can improve and work together to keep this family intact, but I know I'm going to have to go through the hell of letting her find herself.)
Nice foreshadowing, you're still going through that hell, your just stronger now.. Do you think she's found herself, do you think she needs to before accepting her back?
(And I followed the author's advice and wrote down a mantra to say each morning for 3 weeks, something along the lines of "I want to have a great marriage and am learning new skills to do so!")
What skills have you learned? What skills do you still plan on learning?
I'm not really asking for answers, just for you to think about these things. I don't want to mind read, but it seems to me your wife may be nearing rock bottom, at which time she may try and get back with you (maybe not though, not trying to get your hopes up). I just want to point out when /if it happens, it can happen quick, and you should figure out before that happens what you would want/need To let her back before the opportunity presents.
Often those piecing say they worry they let WS back to soon/easy, so I would recommend trying to figure out what would be the right time frame for you to not feel that way if it was to happen.
Remember, don't be afraid to resist their approaches, when/if they truly want you back, they aren't just going to give up because you take your time, just like you didn't give up the first time she said no to you.
Thanks Cnut.
Your post was damn near amazing. I'm going to print it out at work, answer the questions and keep it at home for me to reference.
You may have hit something with the "rock bottom" comment. After everything in the last 24 hrs, she missed his bedtime and I text her about it. She told me she's getting therapy starting Tuesday. I'm shocked really.
As I write this, she called. In between mundane stuff about S, she said "we got married because I was pregnant" then she again said "I'm sorry. I know you know I am, but I feel I just need to keep saying it." Followed by she was going to "figure it out" and do the right thing by everybody (me, S, her friends, etc). I said, whatever you think is right and she responded "would you let me move back in." SHOCKED, I took a second and I said we'd have to discuss. She was thrown for a loop because I didn't say YES YES YES then immediately said she shouldn't have asked, but THEN asked if we could all do something tomorrow and said she'd touch base in the AM.
I don't know what to believe. I think she's embarrassed, scared and nervous but I have no idea what her end game is. I think she's scared to lose me. But I can't play too many mind games. I want to hear a request for forgiveness and, for her to move back home NC w/OP is mandatory.
I just have to wait and see what she says tomorrow. Holy cow, what developments in 24 hours....
Hiya, RSG.
The most recent post caught my eye and I went back to read all of your threads to get caught up on your sitch. You are in a very precarious position right now that has the makings of a potential reconciliation.
I liked how you handled W's inquiry about moving in. Good job. Here is what I suggest as the next step:
Keep your head stewed on really tight and be the cool Clint Eastwood.
In so many words, you can tell W that trust is broken and that you are not comfortable with the notion of her moving back home. Then lay out the conditions as the following: 1) continue with MC 2) absolutely and positively not willing to live in an open marriage for its not what you signed up for 3) for W to stay at her place for the time being 4) you are feeling uncertain and wary given the damage and hurt she's inflicted on you and son with her choices
Then say this is all you are going to say to her at this time because you do not yet fully trust her enough to open up to her. Then sit tight and observe going forward.
The most important thing you can do that will ensure a successful reconciliation is not allowing W to move back home just yet. She needs to get her chit together FIRST before you would ever consider it.
Keep your wits about you and you'll be just fine. You're doing a bang on job with not initiating anything or bombing her with photos and nonsensical stuff. You're on the right track here, buddy.
Keep going. You've got this.
Sorry for typos as the post was made using an iPhone.
Just want to point out one thing that Wonka said about continuing MC... I don't believe you are (I'm pretty positive) in MC... I don't think this is the time to start.. She's starting IC, let that go for a little bit, you don't want To start MC before you absolutely know that A is over, it will be a waste of money.
Try not to break down now, right now your stance is that you are happy, your not against reconciling but you don't know right now if she's where she needs to be to even consider doing it.
I can't stress this enough, she's not going to bolt if you take your time, right now just be the light house, let her tell you when she's ready to discuss what has happened, don't ask. Let her tell you she is NC, don't ask. But you can definitely tell her your not willing to be in an open M and no contact is a must. State your boundaries, validate her, but do not ask questions, she still has a ways to go..
Thanks Wonka and Cnut. That info is invaluable, and the encouragement is priceless.
She just rang early this AM to say she's going into school early to set up for next week, and that she's looking at apartments about 10 minutes from us. It's not just speculative or vague, she named a road and when I googled it I was even surprised how close it was. She has to move as the room she's in now won't be available much longer.
First instinct was oh no, but realized....if I wasn't going to let her back home right now anyway, she'd have to get an apt. Lol. I like that it's so close. I'm not 100%, but I think OP lives in the vicinity of where she is now. In addition, the new location will be great for S.
She also noted she hasn't eaten in about 48 hours, and that the thought of food makes her nauseous. I've felt like that before, it was when I was dumped as a teen. I told her she should probably look into drinking something like a smoothie, just to get some energy. She agreed saying it was a pretty good idea.
She said we could all go to the pool today, but then decided she just wanted to hang out. If she's not eating, I hope she doesn't pass out at the Peachtree tomorrow. She hasn't run in ages and will be seriously lacking energy. Oh, and ATL is scorching every July 4th.
I'm really just looking forward to her going to IC. I've thought she's needed to talk to a neutral party for a while now. I think eventually I might be asked to come in, but I've never known her to be in such a state and M or not S needs a Mommy that's in at least decent shape.
Trying to take it slowly, not have any expectations and to be a lighthouse. It's been 6 weeks. If I push anything, she'll run like a frightened deer and for the first time I feel like if she pushed I'd pull back as well. It's weird. Just as I accept she's almost closed the door, she comes back and starts pushing it open again ever so slightly.
RSG! Hang in there buddy. The roller coaster ride is about to get bumby:)
I'm speculating, but it is starting to seem like where my W was in the first sitch when she was starting to feel unsure. When the OM was becoming less of a factor and she started noticing more of a change in me. Next thing you know we were doing thing as a "family"
We still loved apart for another few months and it wasn't till OM was completely out of picture that we could start focusing on "us"
There are gonna be moment where it feels like old times and that you should just jump bacon into things. Then there are gonna be times where she is the person that you don't recognize again. It will become more to the extreme each way.
This is when it's really important to continue doing things for you. Things that make you better. Because it's very easy to go back to the old ways. It's important that you work on you everyday like you have been.
Keep it up. You're doing great!!
Running the peachtree on an empty stomach in Hotlanta on the 4th is a very bad idea
We should meet up sometime and let our sons swim together
Have a great 4th!
Prophetic! Silly me put too much stock into things. She called early, delayed. Called around 10, delayed. Text a couple times about his day around 2, then about 5 I just said we were going to the pool. She said she was going to see the Purge then asked what I'm doing tomorrow. My folks and bro are coming over and they'll take S home around 6 or so. She said ok, I'm done for the night communicating I think.
I'm just disappointed I guess, not freaking out or anything. It's a process. I have to remember that, and keep doing me/S. You're right, sticking with GAL seems essential now so I don't appear needy, and most importantly keep the focus on me.
Looking forward to fun tomorrow with my family!! You have a great 4th too!!
How are you holding up, sweetie?
Oh brother. So, Facetimed about 15 minutes ago. I shouldn't have answered lol. Said she was feeling better, ate a sandwich and went to the gym today. S had no interest in saying much as he was glued into his show. WW looked dolled up. A ring on (a red jade one she got in Korea a few years ago), hair done in her typical going out style, and looked like makeup. I said "are you going out?" and she said "going out to watch Lifetime lol" Followed a few minutes later by "I'm tired" and then asked if we wanted to go to the park tomorrow morning. I was hesitant and she asked "what else are you doing?" I just mentioned it was supposed to rain tomorrow AM, but I think we'll go just to see how everything goes.
She said she sold her Peachtree number, and that she needs to get back to who she used to be. And she kinda smiled at me when she said that, but I was kinda cold/emotionless in return. Because her appearance belied everything she was saying. Probably really didn't need to, but I checked on that movie. Yup, it plays at 8:15 right by her. She called to say goodnight right around the time before she would leave to get there....
I really need to calm down about everything. Her emotions are all over the place, and I'm too affected by it. I'm speculating too much. My folks will be taking S with them tomorrow evening. I need to enjoy tomorrow with my family, maybe rent a movie after they leave, spend the week on me and not worry about what she's doing. I gotta continue to be strong, staying as cerebral as possible. You can trip and fall on any journey, you've just gotta get up and keep moving.
WW called early this AM and asked to meet at a park, I suggested 9 and we met. S had fun, ran all over the place, wore himself out and enjoyed being with Mommy and Daddy. She had just come from the gym. I noticed she got a new tattoo. "Miles to go" written in cursive on her wrist. That makes 3 (2 small, 1 large). She does like Robert Frost but I've never been a fan of tattoos, and always looked passed it because I loved her. The fact she's gotten another one since we've been separated says a lot, especially since she knows I don't care for them. She didn't TELL me either, she said she's had it for a few weeks and I just saw it.
I wasn't very engaged. I never sat close to her, didn't really converse and just wasn't interested. She felt miles away. She asked if it felt weird for me, and I said no it's fine (because I knew S enjoyed it) and she responded that it wasn't weird for her. She seemed to be in a decent mood and enjoyed being with S. I just didn't have any interest in conversing. I didn't have butterflies or anything, she just felt distant and in turn I didn't have any interest in anything. She was texting the whole time (I had put mine away), made it a point to take pictures with him right next to me and never said much of anything to me other than a couple things about S and comments about what he was doing in the moment.
Are my feelings normal? I felt almost nothing substantive for her when I saw her, besides the fact I think she's attractive. I feel like she wants to try to be my friend, and I have ZERO interest in that. Maybe I'm putting too much into an hour spent with and for S at the park, I don't know....
Oh, and I should add...she tried to send me a pic of S last night at 11:45, reading Green Eggs and Ham. It was his favorite book a few years ago. The link wouldn't work though, and she never tried to resend. It was really weird, I thought it was spam!
Sandi, can you take a look at my last few posts and tell me what you think?
I think anytime you have the urge to move forward that it's best to pull back.
I think you may need to stop having so much communication and play dates.
Remember that you can never go "too slow"
Rsg,
This is why I was saying that it's so important to GAL for yourself right now. You have to be happy with or without spouse. If not, she will immediately pick up on the "wanting it to work" from you. Not by you words or actions, but she will just "feel" it
That's why in this case you can't fake it. It won't last.
My W got another tattoo as well. I think she was surprised because I actually liked it. And she could tell that it was genuine when I said so. Because it was.
I've never been a tattoo guy either, but I also was looking at my W as a "dream woman" and not someone who is her own individual self and has her own wants and needs. Which aren't just me and my son.
I see things so differently now.
Just keeping working on you.
I agree with darkness. Pull back on the communication
I really need to calm down about everything. Her emotions are all over the place, and I'm too affected by it. I'm speculating too much.
Based on what you said I don't think you need Sandi2's advice, you know what you need to do.
You've said you don't like where she's at, she told you she needs to get back who she used to be, assuming you liked who she was so that needs to happen, it will take time. Take a step back from the day to day changes, how are you doing today compared to two weeks ago? Stay focused on you, I know it's hard but drop your expectations and trying to figure out where she is. You've been doing great, stay on that path.
You guys are right. I realized that. Then this happened:
I was at my neighbor's, who invited me over for burgers and beer. It was fun. I come back to check my phone, WW has Facetimed 3 times and called once. I FT, and she tells me she's been throwing up all afternoon and has nothing in her tummy again. Her head is pounding and she's a wreck. She's about to hangup, and asks if I love her anymore. I just stare, and ask her if she loves me anymore. She says no, and then I say what does it matter what I say anymore. She thinks I'm doing better as friends. Then, not 5 minutes later, she says she's going to the clinic tomorrow in addition to starting therapy and telling me because she has nobody else who cares. The only other person would be her Dad, who's 3 hours away in Huntsville and indispensable as he takes care of her Mom 24/7.
She says she got red highlights in her hair, but I didn't see this AM nor on the phone. She knows I loathe that stuff. Seems like rebellion. She starts bawling, talking about how sick she feels. Stomach in awful shape, constant headaches, sleeps all the time but always tired. Asks if there's such thing as a summer flu. I don't think she did anything today but the gym and see S and I at the park. Well, and lay in bed. She calls herself an F-up and cries.
I didn't remember this stuff all in order, but it's everything that was said. Coconut, you're right. Rock bottom. Her health is in the crapper, and it's affecting her mind. She may not love me. I have no way of knowing what's really in there. But, S deserves a mother that's in her right mind and healthy. My marriage seems secondary right now. I told her to please let me know how therapy and clinic goes, because S deserves it. I know she's not happy, she's not healthy, S needs his mama bear back and I don't know where she went. (I called her that at the height of our marriage, when we were in love and she was Super Mom.)
I'm so stressed. I was hurt when she said she didn't love me, and the friends crap made me angry. But, she seemed drunk as her words were slurred; however, she's been on steroids for an allergic reaction, and dehydration causes similar reactions. I have to be strong for her and try to be sympathetic, for my S's sake. Even though I know her mind is screwed up, it's hard to ignore when someone says they don't love you anymore.
She's sick, mentally and physically. She needs to talk to someone neutral, and I applaud therapy. She needs to see a Doctor, not a clinician. This has gotten so much more difficult than I ever thought it would get. I thought I'd have to forgive her lies. I thought I'd have to forgive walking out. An affair. And now possible substance abuse which could be linked to actual sickness and mental breakdowns. I'm doing this all for my S. And damn my weak heart, I still love the woman I just don't think I can tell her anytime soon.
I'm very interested in what happens tomorrow with therapy, and her physical diagnosis. S literally worships his mother. He needs us both, together, more than anything but I'll accept both of us in sane mind and body. I'm struggling, but getting through as best I can.
What a day!!!
Rsg, dang! What a day is right, I think you are doing really well for someone in your position. I agree with you that mental and physical health take priority as far as fixing MR problems. They are justas important as emotional and spiritual health when it comes to being someone that your S needs as a mmother figure in his life. Keep showing your support, I'm sure it's real and meaningful when it comes to this person you still love so deeply, for more reasons than just being your dream wife of the future.
RSG, I know I keep referring to my first sitch but it's so similar.
Just continue to be the strong father you are being for your son.
Your W is not herself right now and it's clear to see.
This is why it's so important that you continue to work on you and be the best RSG you can be
For sure RSG.
It's REALLY hard to detach. And it's hard not to see things from a narrative we want to be true: "WW is not herself, she is in the fog, this isn't really her, she'll snap out of it, she's in pain so obviously it is because she isn't being true to herself, she'll hit bottom and realize the right thing to do is work on our issues and R..."
Problem with this narrative is that 1) it is all speculation about the future and isn't necessarily right, and 2) it keeps you attached as heck.
Sorry to say, there are many other ways this can play out. I wen through the same thing with XW, she was wayward, depressed, lonely, said she would always love me, hated divorce, missed the marriage, she didn't have anywhere to turn. Well, she attempted suicide shortly thereafter. Then when she was back from the hospital it was full speed ahead to the divorce, we aren't compatible, she was on her journey of inner healing.
Oh, and don't think the IC is going to help her "shine a light through the fog". IC's work for their client, and people hear what they want to hear. XW probably spent half her time painting me as abusive to IC so therapy was about giving her the strength to move on from a dangerous destructive relationship and the big bad wolf that I am, and XW found the IC sessions proof that she was better than ever and on the right road.
Bottom line, the best thing you can do is save yourself. Normally I'd say to create as much distance as possible, but that's not always the best if there isn't an affair. Maybe I missed it, has there been any known EA/PA?
Beyond that, work on you. I have read a few threads now and don't know off the top of my head what your contributions were to the breakdown of the M and what your 180s are...which means you're not talking about it enough.
Finally, I'd highly recommend a DB coach. I don't want to hear about how much they cost. You say you love your WAW and want to save your M. Spend the money and get help. You say WAW refuses IC. DB is all about changing the dynamic by changing yourself. She doesn't need to go to IC, or to agree with you. You can promote change. And while I didn't want to scare you with talk about my XW's attempt, I will say this...your family is in danger, and you need *PROFESSIONAL* advice. Not spending the money now would be like trying to skimp on going to the hospital for cancer. Please get a pro on your side.
Thanks CBT. Up and down, up and down. This week is the perfect week to cut down on communication, not pickup the phone whenever she contacts and slow down. S is with my folks all week, so I can chill out.
Zeus, I'll hit a few things. Counseling is through her school, which is a private Christian school thus likely Christian based counseling. They'll help with depression and getting her head right, hopefully. My M is on the back burner, I want to make sure S has a competent mother first and foremost as horrible physical health makes an already cloudy mind even worse.
I've been working on me pretty well I think. I have figured out at least some of my problems within the marriage. 1: Every argument was like a football game rather than a chance to solve problems. Whoever got closest to the goal line won. It was more about defending actions than DOING anything. 2: Horrible communication. I'd explain something in what were obvious terms to me. I'd only do it once more, and if she still didn't get it I'd shut down and say I'm not repeating myself. 3: I had no idea of her love language. I just read the book and it is wonderful! She may be bilingual, but first and foremost is acts of service. Sweeping, cleaning out toilets, taking out trash when she asks for help. I fought whenever she mentioned, because I said I'd do it on my time, rather than recognize it was a symbol of love to her. 4: Listening and validating rather than offering advice. I was an exact scenario in the 5 LL book. When she didn't take my advice, I just complained and said she made her own bed when all she wanted was me to hear her pain, validate and sometimes love on her. 5: Not react in physically negative ways when she wanted to discuss something. For me, the ACTION is all that matters not the reaction. Doing something that stinks (taking the car for service, putting something together, scheduling appointments, cooking when I'm exhausted, etc) but needs to get done is what I ask for. For her, my negative reaction just made her feel worse.
Those are all things I recognize now and have been working on as much as I can. 180s? I'm trying to be a lighthouse. I'm being friendlier and more outgoing. I don't get enraged in traffic. I listen and validate. I shaved off my beard, which I've had since I met her. I put on cologne all the time. I don't initiate contact, and try not to be the fixer. I clean the house regularly. I don't offer advice. They're all a work in progress, and I slip occasionally, but those are the main things so far.
I'm thinking about going to see a therapist myself pretty soon. If things get much weirder, I'm def going to need a professional outlet....
Oh me oh my. I get to reading people's "piecing" threads and wish I were there.
Anyway, today: She rings right when I get to work, she asks about S incident at pool July 4th and then has to hang up. He pooped in the pool, freaked out because he had to leave and my Dad told her I handled it well.
I text around 2 to say car tag is paid, she says thanks, then asks about how S is doing with my folks. My Mom ends up sending us both pics and talks about his day.
About 8 she calls and I don't answer. Facetimes a little later, and I pickup outside. She asks if I've said goodnight to S, and I haven't yet. She asks where I am. I'm at O'Charleys hanging out at my buddy's bar again but I lie saying I'm having supper with a meetup group. "Great, I'm proud of you. One day I'll get out." We small talk for another minute, and I make sure to hangup first.
I forgot to ask about counseling/clinic and we end up having this text conversation:
Me: BTW almost forgot did you do therapy or clinic?
Her: I have to set it up, but I will.
Me: Oh ok. I worry a little about you for S
Her: I'm fine, I'm just overwhelmed sometimes by all my decisions.
Me: Right
Her: You being mean?
Me: No. Just don't know what to think sometimes, just try to roll with the punches.
Her: I just talked to him (S) via Facetime, I think he was watching Wally Kazam.
Me: He likes that show, now he likes Teletubbies too (Yikes!I wish he didn't, but he's so sweet when he watches it lol) Are you just in your room?
Her: Yeah why?
Me: Curious. You just seem content most of the time.
Her: I'm gonna go to the gym
Me: K
Weird. Quite certain the gym thing was just an excuse to stop talking. It was at least 8:30. Oh me. I know I'm not detached, but I no longer feel sorry like I have. The other day we were talking about a mutual friend. The girl ran away from trouble with her boyfriend, stayed with family in South Africa, ended up getting drunk and having a baby with an old boyfriend. Then moved back to the States with the baby. Right now, she's having contract issues about her job for next year and the baby's Daddy is here. I said there's a lot of drama with her, and WW said yeah. I commented that I felt sorry for her, and WW just said she's made her own decisions. I figured she'd have a little sympathy for someone in a situation not THAT different from her own. And a friend no less.
So, the counseling I'm considering is a woman with a practice in my area who has written a book on healing from an affair and specializes in marriage/divorce. I may call tomorrow just get a little information.
RSG, do me a favor, go back and read your last post as if someone else had written it. What would you tell them about the interactions they posted?
RSG, do me a favor, go back and read your last post as if someone else had written it. What would you tell them about the interactions they posted?
Im not RSG, but Im very confused by many things.
Me: BTW almost forgot did you do therapy or clinic?
Her: I have to set it up, but I will.
Me: Oh ok.
I worry a little about you for S Im having trouble understanding what you mean here. I mean....I get that you are worried. But Im having trouble why you are saying this here and now. Telling her you dont think she is doing a good job as a mom isnt a great way to go about things...Her: I'm fine, I'm just overwhelmed sometimes by all my decisions.
Me: Right
Again. What do you mean by "right"? There are so many ways to read that over text. Sarcastic? Agreement? Non-commitance? Her: You being mean?
Me: No. Just don't know what to think sometimes, just try to roll with the punches.
Again, this sounds strange to me. What are you trying to gain by saying these kinds of things?Her: I just talked to him (S) via Facetime, I think he was watching Wally Kazam.
Me: He likes that show, now he likes Teletubbies too (Yikes!I wish he didn't, but he's so sweet when he watches it lol) Are you just in your room?
Her: Yeah why?
Seriously. Why are you asking??Me: Curious. You just seem content most of the time.
Her: I'm gonna go to the gym
Me: K
Frankly, Id have stopped this conversation at "Oh OK"I continue to think that pulling back is your best path forward. There is a lot of pursuit in that conversation and you can see that she didnt respond well to it. I think you guys are doing way too much talking and facetiming for people that are separated.
ok, Darkness pretty much nailed it..
but in addition to that specific text chain, I worry that you are having way too much contact with her. I get that you have a child together, and that you feel the need to call at bedtime when he is with her, but now you two are calling each other and facetiming to talk about S when he's with your parents.. and was it really that important that you let her know you paid for the car tag? You two had 4 conversations in one day, that's more than I talked to my W prior to BD, and a whole lot more than I talked to her after BD, she was lucky to get 1 conversation from me.
Look RSG, I know it's difficult, I know that you miss your W and look for anyway you can to open some sort of communication, and it's your life and you get to do what you want. but your best chance of getting her back in the MR, of being a family again, is to back away from her.
It's been a long few days. I guess I just saw her broken down, and without knowing or feeling like it, turned into Mr Fix it again like I had always been with her.
Thanks for pointing this stuff out. And thanks to darkness for going point by point. I guess my only two defenses are 1: She wants to take S to Alabama for 5-7 days starting next Sunday. She's already stated she's uncomfortable with her parents taking care of S, as her Dad is a defacto 24/7 nurse (and terribly stressed out) for her Mom who is an alcoholic and has had terrible reactions in her brain. She needs constant looking after, or she'll likely die very soon. It's a little scary throwing my S into that, along with WW who is physically sick and mentally unstable. 2: Mr Fix it. I didn't even realize I was one of those people until the S began, but whenever an issue came up in our M I'd always be the one to make appointments, check up on it, see how it went, pay etc.
You'll be happy to no I've had no contact today, and won't answer the phone although I may answer texts late. We did talk way more than that when M, texting all day about any and everything and calling after work to talk about the day. I got my answer about therapy/doc, I just have to trust she's doing it. And if not, nothing I can do.
Yes, I do miss having my best friend. Although I see I CAN live my life well without her, take care of S without her, and be a good man without her....well you get it. I guess her breakdown is harder for me to take than I thought.
I got home early today to get my license renewed and get my emissions done. I'm walking the dog later, following up on some bills, doing some reading and trying to clear my head.
I stepped out to take books back to the library (I have since checked out Men are from Mars...) and get my emissions done. I left phone home to charge. I get back in an hour, I had 1 missed FT and 4 missed calls. I remembered we're bringing in paperwork tomorrow to preschool, and need to figure out when to meetup. She calls again, and I pickup.
She wants to shoot the bull about her day for a few minutes and I just listen. She mentions preschool, and I say we should get there around 5 and shes agrees. She mentions she got the therapy bill, and I just said to forward it to me and we can divide the payment accordingly. She mentions she's on the way to the gym and doing better, and I just said "oh that's good." It's like she was checking in with me. Asking me how much my tag costs, how long did it take to renew my license (I posted it on Facebook), etc.
I don't ask about anything, don't pursue, don't act overly excited. Basically I just wanted to get the info about preschool, because we need to get him signed up for the fall term ASAP. I'm not going to text any tonight, those 5 minutes on the phone were it. It feels like she's going full board for "friends" and I'm just not with it.
Well fellas, I'm convinced. I'm SICK of this friends crap. If she wants to be friends, we can work that out after a divorce.
"Immediately stop all contacting throughout the day. If there are any decisions that need to be made about kids, school, babysitting, pickups, etc,. Tell her to get it straighten out the night before and no texting him about details later. (He is not to explain that he is going NC, etc.) He completely withdraws his part of the texting, emails, and calls unless it is urgent. He is not to use the kids as an excuse to contact her. She needs to feel this loss. He is not being available at her fingertips."
That's it. I'm too available.
I've decided that I'm going to go to counseling. I'm calling the place I've been looking at and will setup an appointment. I need to talk to somebody, I need to do more than read books and post on here (although it REALLY helps). I need to explain the WHOLE situation to a professional, and have her interpret my feelings.
I'm going to make the call to the IC this afternoon.
First I thought I'd post this:
From yesterday around 4:45 through today at 8:15 she has called me around 8 times. 3 this AM, and I didn't answer. Then she texted to ask "what time are you leaving to get to preschool?" Don't know why this required so many calls, but I said "the normal time, around 4." She said she'd leave around the same time, and I said ok sounds good.
Two things:
1 - I know she's going to get to the preschool earlier than me, and will ask where I am. I'm going to use it as an opportunity to demonstrate (to MYSELF) I'm cooler about traffic and not freaking myself out. It's a specific example of "don't freak out about things you can't control." I've really been working on this, and I can feel the difference. It really affected my attitude when I got home, it was always under the surface even when I felt good having arrived.
2 - Is this what pursuit feels like? 8 calls in less than 24 hrs, to shoot the bull and ask 2 second questions? I can see why it's so unattractive. "OMG, her again?!"
I'm having a better day. With her making it a point to tell me, numerous times, she's going to the gym again and trying to "get back to who she used to be" I'm curious as to what she's going to say this afternoon. Not expecting anything (I swear! lol) just curious....
RSG, the calls are not pursuit, they are about control. Remember, it's not about avoiding at all cost, it's about not caring if you talk to her or not. If she's calling at times that you don't want her to, tell her not to call during those times (like at work). If your busy, you can answer the call, tell her your busy and either that you will call back later or she can call you back later.
When you talk, keep it short, end conversation as soon as you can, hang up first, move on with your day.
Personally, I have a feeling you like the fact that she is calling you, you enjoy seeing that number pop up on your cell, and I think that is what she is counting on. Your a good plan B in her eyes, that's what she's doing.
Sandi, can you take a look at my last few posts and tell me what you think?
I have gotten a little behind, but from what I am reading in this thread, you're doing really cool Clint....
She has repeatedly said she is so sorry. The best answer I have ever heard as a response from the LBH is to say,
"It's not that simple anymore". For the LBH to see his WW's fantasy crumbling is not always as satisfying as he may have imagined it. Even if he is angry and wants to see her finally getting smacked with a heavy dose of reality.....it's difficult to see her about to hit rock bottom. And, not every WW hits rock bottom. I didn't...(Thank God)....and thanks to this board. Rock bottom is not an absolute necessity. Even hitting bottom doesn't turn the worst of the WW's. I do believe that they have to experience a loss before things really start to open their eyes to what they have done. It may not be the loss the LBH's logical mind
thinks it will be, but it will be a certain something that will really slap her in the face. First she gets her eyes opened, and then a lot of other things need to be processed in her.
From where I sit, I think your WW may be feeling sorry for
herself. However, that may be part of the journey for her. Is she feeling the results of her decisions? Is she sorry for what she has done, and now she sees the disaster and pain (for others, not only herself) her decisions have caused? It's important that she makes that connection. Otherwise, it's not much more than a pity party.
Some of it is probably temp checking, to see if she can get you to feel sorry for her,
too. That's the mindset of a WW. If she can get you to feel sorry for her, then it's easier for her to get back home...and with less required of her. However, that is why it's so important to continue being cool Clint Eastwood.
Let her play out her drama. You don't let her know what you are thinking or feeling. Don't be afraid to make her work to get you back. You want to hear more than just an apology. You want to wait until she is asking you, "What will it take to make things work again?" (Or something very close to those words). Right?.......Right.
Is saying sorry, seem to come rather easy for her? As if saying, "I'm so sorry", should be sufficient? Do you see where I am going here? For some women, like me for example, it was very tough to apologize,
genuinely, in regards to the suffering I had caused my H. The first time I said it was with a very resentful attitude, so needless to say....my H wasn't impressed. And, for some, they are merely words and the remorse is not felt. If you can hold her feet to the fire, I think the remorse is on its way. But hey, I get excited right along with you guys.....when these girls start seeing the light of day!
Welp, it ain't my lucky day....
Got to the preschool, was in a good mood. Smile on my face, just felt good inside. Was looking over paperwork inside, she walked in front of me to sit down and her phone crossed my field of vision. It was HIS name. "You're so special." My blood raced. I took the pen to sign my name to a few things, My hands shook with anger. Again. THAT name. In another area related to my S. We turned everything in, and I remained calm and focused on getting S signed up, costs, etc.
Walked outside and she started talking about money. Needless to say, my good mood was in the crapper. All I needed was one thing to set me off. "I'm not paying for the tag, it was only $20!" Boom. Things escalated from there. She threatened to get a lawyer, so I said how will you pay. I just glared at her. "SLUT" rang throughout my mind. "Why are you looking at me that way." I held my tongue. Things still escalated. "Therapy costs a ton. I've been paying for it alone for an entire year." "I didn't know it was that much then!" Then I changed tact. "Maybe you would have if you didn't run away." "I didn't do anything then." "Yes you did..."
We drove away. Still pissed off. I sent a snarky text and finished it with "you're so special." "Huh" "Texting your boyfriend while we sign S up for school?!" She calls. I'm girding up, ready for a nasty fight because I know she's capable of one. During her worst wayward moments, she was extremely mean. I answer, she laughs and says it was some kid counselor at camp who's the son of a Dean. Calls me crazy and paranoid. Then I was surprised. "What about you? Being secretive about where you are? Are you dating? Are you seeing somebody?" "No." Figure if I'm in the gutter I may as well ask, and she says she's not involved with OP anymore. She says she's trying to get her, uh, "stuff" together and is trying to schedule counseling and needs to get back with them.
Suddenly the conversation gets light. I laugh at something inadvertent, and she says she may go into work late next week and meet S and I for his first day at camp. I say he'd like that. She says she's going to the gym. We say bye.
I come home, and send her a text. I apologize saying I'm working hard on my own stuff, admit that that name triggers my anger and validate that it probably does look crazy to her. Done.
Well. Good things I learned: The anger is gone. It flowed through, and I'm not angry anymore. She isn't involved with anyone. I've confirmed therapy for me is 100% necessary. She's insecure about the idea of me seeing someone. She sees therapy is necessary for her. It's obvious we need to be separated longer.
Bad things I learned: I haven't even started to delve into it in 6 weeks, but I have MASSIVE trust issues with this woman. Even if she begged me, her coming back home now would literally break us both and put us both into massive depression. Trust and forgiveness are issues 1A and 1B I need to work on in therapy. I need to SHUT THE FUDGE UP.
Cbtdad will probably figure out who I am, find my address and come slap me around. Which is ironic, because I read your 2013 threads and there are similarities. I'm reminded of your early days when you told your lady she'd never stop being a selfish biddy. I'm working so well on other aspects of myself, but the trust part of it is just lightyears away.
Anyway, I'm ready for the firing squad. Shoot away!!
Well
My thinking is you don't trust her because she has proved herself untrustworthy.
V
Bahahahaha!!! I won't come hunt you down! There are gonna be many slips up along the way. It's a process and that's why it is so important to work on yourself.
If you read my threads from 2013 then you probably noticed it took me over 3 months to detach. My BD that time around was in December and I didn't join the forum till February. I did so much wrong before I joined. So in that aspect you are way ahead of the game!! Good job!
My sitch from 2013 taught me so much about a WW. I can't tell you how many times my W would say she isn't talking to OM anymore. And you know what her response was when we started piecing? "Well at the time you asked me I wasn't talking to him"
That's the roller coaster ride my friend. That's why it is so important to work on you and detach. Listen to me on this!!! YOU HAVE ZERO CONTROL OF YOUR W. YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOU!
Rsg, you can't control your emotions, but you can control how you react!!! You got angry when you saw that name. And by the way, I don't believe your W. She is still in contact with whoever it is. She is definitely communicating as much as she is with you for plan B right now. She might now even realize that is what she is doing, but that is definitely happening. You have something she doesn't. Us!! you have us who have been through these things and can point them out.
That's why you need to take the advice of everyone and cut the contact as much as possible. It's for you! Don't worry about her. I know that's tough to do but you must do it to move forward.
The things you are saying about your W's behavior right now remind me so much of how she was in 2013. She would break down all the time. She was definitely not the woman I had married and wanted to be with. There is nothing you can do to change your W right now. You have to understand that. She has got to find herself on her own. You can only do you!
I want you to really pay attention to when your W texts you.
Really understand if it's something you need to respond to. If it is, then one or two word answers.
Just like coconut said, when on the phone keep it short and sweet and be the first to get off. You have to slow down her control.
Go be happy for you!! I know it's hard. Been there done that. But it will get easier.
Yep, listen to that guy cbt, I know I do... Your WW explained away, and that was a pretty crappy explanation. Detach man, detach is your best chance..
My wife and I are piecing, and guess what? There are no awkward text, no hiding the phone, she almost always texts me first and is always telling me what's going on in her life... Wanna know why, because now she's focused on being with me...
When somebody texts her, or posts something on Facebook that she thinks I may misinterpret she comes to me and shows me the whole conversation, because she knows it might make me question...
Look, until she shows yountrue remorse it doesn't matter what she says, Jo's back away... Go as dark as you possibly can. If your truly doing it for your son do it, but if your doing it to communicate with her, don't do it.., back away.
Yep, listen to that guy cbt, I know I do... Your WW explained away, and that was a pretty crappy explanation. Detach man, detach is your best chance..
My wife and I are piecing, and guess what? There are no awkward text, no hiding the phone, she almost always texts me first and is always telling me what's going on in her life... Wanna know why, because now she's focused on being with me...
When somebody texts her, or posts something on Facebook that she thinks I may misinterpret she comes to me and shows me the whole conversation, because she knows it might make me question...
Look, until she shows yountrue remorse it doesn't matter what she says, Jo's back away... Go as dark as you possibly can. If your truly doing it for your son do it, but if your doing it to communicate with her, don't do it.., back away.
I hear you guys. She doesn't show true remorse of course. I think Sandi's right and she feels sorry for herself, and hoping I do too. If she felt any remorse, she would see that what I did today came from pain. I'm still bleeding a little even though scar tissue is building. I do like Sandi's note of response to "I'm so sorry" though. "It's not that simple anymore " is the perfect response.
I'm going to look at each text when it comes through and put a value on it. During any phone calls I choose to take, I'm going to initiate "I need to go" and say goodbye. This was a big wakeup call for me today. I need to work on my ability to forgive, or I won't be able to trust anyone anymore. I need to work on myself a lot. Communication, LL's and all the relationship stuff is helpful. I CAN control my anger. I was holding back on forgiveness in order to wait for her request; but, I see now that her asking is one thing (and will take a long time). My GIVING is another. It's for me, my heart, my value, my life.
The therapist I called today only has hours from 8-2 a couple days a week. That just won't work. She's supposed to ring me tomorrow with info re recommendations. I'm looking forward to getting with someone and really working on things. I'm good at reading and putting concepts into play, but I need to get stuff out into the open and have a professional help me with my head.
I'm girding up, ready for a nasty fight
This seems counterproductive.
How can you prepare next time to DE-escalate?
I have MASSIVE trust issues with this woman. Trust and forgiveness are issues 1A and 1B I need to work on in therapy.
What has she done to earn your trust?
Why do you think you should trust her?
I'm girding up, ready for a nasty fight
This seems counterproductive.
How can you prepare next time to DE-escalate?
I have MASSIVE trust issues with this woman. Trust and forgiveness are issues 1A and 1B I need to work on in therapy.
What has she done to earn your trust?
Why do you think you should trust her?
Good questions! I'm trying to find an IC I can go to and discuss this stuff. The one I talked to couldn't get me a reference, and another I tried today just didn't sit right with me on the phone (seemed mean). I'm going to call another this weekend.
It's the anger that caused me to get ready for a fight. I think I've buried my feelings about the A, and that's why I ignore that little voice that says "You know this isn't right" and just continue to blow up. I won't be able to see an IC immediately, so I should take some deep breaths or something before I act. "Will this get me closer to or take me further from my goals."
As for trust, yeah I'm not ready for that it was just a goal to talk about and work through in therapy. She definitely has to earn my trust back, and that's not going to happen anytime soon because she doesn't care.
For today, no contact. As expected after yesterday lol. I know there will be tomorrow though, as it's my birthday and I'll be picking up S from my folks. She's given crappy presents in the past, so I really expect nothing other than a happy bday text if that.
Walked outside and she started talking about money. Needless to say, my good mood was in the crapper. All I needed was one thing to set me off. "I'm not paying for the tag, it was only $20!" Boom. Things escalated from there. She threatened to get a lawyer, so I said how will you pay. I just glared at her. "SLUT" rang throughout my mind. "Why are you looking at me that way." I held my tongue. Things still escalated. "Therapy costs a ton. I've been paying for it alone for an entire year." "I didn't know it was that much then!" Then Ichanged tact. "Maybe you would have if you didn't run away." "I didn't
do anything then." "Yes you did..."
We drove away. Still pissed off. I sent a snarky text and finished it with "you're so special." "Huh" "Texting your boyfriend while we sign S up for school?!"
You may have lost your cool Clint sunglasses on that round.
I answer, she laughs and says it was some kid counselor at camp who's the son of a Dean. Calls me crazy and paranoid. Then I was surprised. "What about you? Being secretive about where you are? Are you dating? Are you seeing somebody?" "No." Figure if I'm in the gutter I may as well ask, and she says she's not involved with OP
anymore. She says she's trying to get her, uh, "stuff" together and is trying to schedule counseling and needs to get back with them.
Are you positive you saw OM's name when she was texting? If you did, then I think she's lying, in part, anyway. She was laughing b/c you showed your jealousy. You were responding like a jealous high school boyfriend.
I come home, and send her a text. I apologize saying I'm working hard on my own stuff, admit that that name triggers my anger and validate that it probably does look crazy to her. Done.
I want to make a suggestion, and I hope you will consider making it new behavior change. I think you should break yourself from texting her and bring up the subject that you just had with her. You could have apologized when the two of you were on the phone earlier. To return to the subject again.......plus you persuing by initiating a text regarding something personal between the two of you.......sets you back a little bit. It shows her things you should not reveal at this time. Mainly, it tells her you are still hooked, and it appears that you are seeking a response from her. So, please break yourself from this action.
Well. Good things I learned: The anger is gone. It flowed through, and I'm not angry anymore. She isn't involved with anyone. I've confirmed therapy for me is 100% necessary. She's insecure about the idea of me seeing someone. She sees therapy is necessary for her. It's obvious we need to be separated longer.
The anger gone is temporary, and probably b/c she said she's not involved with anyone. (Did she really say, "anyone", or did she specify OM?). She is insecure about the idea of you dating. All of it put you in a better mood. But, you still have an anger problem
that is just wait waiting to be triggered. Is your therapist covering this problem and giving you the tools to help you?
Bad things I learned: I haven't even started to delve into it in 6 weeks, but I have MASSIVE trust issues with this woman. Even if she begged me, her coming back home now would literally break us both and put us both into massive depression. Trust and forgiveness are issues 1A and 1B I need to work on in therapy. I need to SHUT THE
FUDGE UP.
I agree. And, your certainly need to STFU. I'm going to say something about your trust and forgiveness issues. Once your trust has been violated by the other person, then it is up to them to earn back a little trust at a time. You aren't able to believe or "trust"
her word now. Her actions must consistantly line up with her words. In time, she can earn a little more......and a little more......until you feel that you can trust again. But why are you pressuring yourself about not being able to trust her now? This is up to her......not you. This is a big part of the WW's work, and it should be required when returning to, and healing the MR.
The forgiveness is not the same as trust, IMHO. I believe the big difference in the two is this: Forgiveness cannot be earned. It is an act of grace, and grace is never earned. It is entirely left up to the injured person to choose to forgive, or not to forgive. The injured person can even choose to forgive the other person..........but never trust them again. People have divorced and the injured spouse could eventually forgive, but would not be placed in the position of trusting that other spouse again.........b/c the other spouse did not change his/her behavior/actions. The injured party forgave, for their own sake.
It was for themselves, not so much for the other person.
If the couple decides to work together to heal the MR, forgiveness is an absolute necessity for the betrayed spouse. It takes time for deep injuries to heal, and I've been told that betrayal is a unique pain that nobody understands without experiencing it. The betrayed spouse who is so quick to tell the cheating spouse that they forgive them..........many times right after discovering the affair even though the cheater could care less)........may be a spouse who has not had time to really process the shock, pain, anger, etc. I have seen some cases where the betrayed spouse would tell the cheating spouse they forgave, when really, it was an attempt to smooth things over to prevent divorce.
Well, this post has become way too long and there is so much more I want to add, but I will stop here. Tomorrow is another day.
Sandi thanks for chiming in!
I did see DBag's name. I think she's playing the semantics game really. The other day, she brought me her emissions form and said the guy was hitting on her. "You don't want me, I'm a mess in my emotions" as if she's Miss Single Woman. I may show jealousy, but it's more that it is something connected with my S than anything (first his iPad, then his school artwork, then his preschool). Her parents took him to a trailer park before w/o my knowledge and it pissed me off. My S should be a million miles from trash!!
I didn't apologize on the phone because I wanted to calm down and collect my thoughts. I didn't expect a response, but from her POV it probably looked that way. You're right, I should've just let it go and not texted anything.
I do have an anger issue, I know. I'm trying to find an IC, but it's difficult. I don't know when I have S, I work 8-4 M-F and can't meet anyone in the middle of the day. But I know I need someone. I'm glad WW's insecure about the idea of me dating. It's strange, I'm more confident in who I am and what I look like than ever before. My eyes wander more now than they have in 5 years. And, dammit, I'm a catch!
With regards to trust, I wrote that poorly. It's a goal in therapy to talk about, not something I want now. I know that's her job, to EARN my trust. Forgiveness is the big thing for me. I talked to the one IC for a minute on the phone, and got a lump in my throat just talking about trying to forgive her. I told WW I'd be willing to forgive in the beginning, but I've learned I had no idea what I was talking about. I've scabbed up about her leaving, lying, being a poor Mom, choosing DBag over playing with S, etc. I'm still bleeding about the A itself.
Again, thanks Sandi. You're a huge help.
Have you looked into the costs of MWDs counsellors? They are by phone and seem to be available at wide range of times. Even counseling by phone may be good for you, with the added bonus of them understanding DB, both of my counsellors didn't/dont.
Last night she tried to call twice. I texted I'm not really in the mood to talk, I'm tired. She asked where I was, and said maybe she'd get me supper for my bday from a takeout place we would go to religiously but then mentioned how that was too forward. I said "if you do/don't want to get me something for my bday that's up to you." She said you do indifference well, good night. Oh, she also mentioned she's staying at her boss's house until she can move into apt. So, this is why she blurted out "would you let me move back in" the other day. Glad I didn't fold.
FF to today. I pickup S around 11, get home around noon. Putting him to nap, she rings at 12:30, I don't answer. She texts happy birthday and says she's looking at apts. I say thanks and good luck. She mentions again she wants to buy me supper for bday, so I say sure. Turning down a bday present would be a little a-holish right? S is here, and will enjoy seeing his Mommy. He won't see her much for the next 7 days really either.
She texts about the apt and sends a pic of the playground/pool, I say it'll be good for S.
I'm going to apologize for the other day as Sandi advised, and that I'm looking to find an IC that can help me with my anger. That I owe it to S to try my best to work as hard as I can on me regardless of whether we try to reconcile down the road.
You guys still think this is the plan B action going, I'm sure. I'm trying hard to fight urges, but it's my birthday, she wants to buy me supper, etc. I'm not overly excited or anything, and I DO feel like early CBT as well lol. One thing I really took from your early posts is your positive attitude and your mantra of patience, patience, patience. I'm trying to be patient about everything. I've had an epiphany about a few things, and I know the areas in which I need help and those I'm doing well. I have no expectations for her visit, other than the taste of the food lol.
I'm going to apologize for the other day as Sandi advised,
I did?
I thought so? Lol maybe I won't then, as you don't seem to advocate!!
Lol, I didn't remember Sandi saying that ever... What would you have done that deserves apology when she's having A and hasn't apologized....
As far as bday dinner, what screams I'm still here for you (plan B) more:
1. Don't do anything except get take out with spouse having an A
2. Go out with friends and have fun, heck, even go to a park and have a bday bbq and bring your child
I'm not sure what you are referring to, but this is all I remember saying about it.
Quote:
I come home, and send her a text. I apologize saying I'm working hard on my own stuff, admit that that name triggers my anger and validate that it probably does look crazy to her. Done.
I want to make a suggestion, and I hope you will consider making it new behavior change. I think you should break yourself from texting her and bring up the subject that you just had with her. You could have apologized when the two of you were on the phone earlier. To return to the subject again.......plus you persuing by initiating a text regarding something personal between the two of you.......sets you back a little bit. It shows her things you should not reveal at this time. Mainly, it tells her you are still hooked, and it appears that you are seeking a response from her. So, please break yourself from this action.
Well, it was a great day. She came over, S was excited. He loved having Mommy home while he ate lunch, then we went to the pool. He was a bad little boy, but we had fun. Then she bought me take out and we ate together. She talked about the apartments she's looking at, and said she's staying with her boss for the weekend because she's lonely and misses S. She said she's lost 8 pounds (and showed me her much smaller tummy) and still can't hold down much. She's going on about how alone she feels, but is proud of the fact she's finally gone back to the gym and doing these obstacle things. (Doing something I like again) And then.....
I say something hypothetically with zero seriousness (is that a word?) about moving back in, and she says I'm never moving back in as your wife. I go from sympathetic to a glazed over face. We finish eating, go downstairs and she says why do you think I'm looking for an apt and makes this ugly face at me. I said I wasn't serious, and I don't even know if I want you back in the first place.
Things devolve from there. She asks me for help deciding about her apartment, what good cost is, etc. I say, why should I help someone who says something so ugly. She tells me to stop bullying, I say I'm not bullying. A husband helps his wife. You had an affair and have left the family. I'm not even 100% if I want you back, but being ugly doesn't help anything. She ignores and says to give S kiss. I tell her to just admit it and that the W I know would find her behavior abhorrent. I tell her I won't Facetime, text about S's day, help with apartment hunting, work with her on money or be there when she's sad if she can't even admit this. This goes on for a while, and it finally ends with her saying "I'm not a cheater." I ask, you didn't leave S and I over and over to spend time with some loser? She says no. She's sorry she gave me an ugly answer. She's not ready to answer a "loaded question."
WTF??? So I call her, and she says she's working on herself and trying to take things a day at a time. She's looking for therapy via phone, through a program at her preschool. (Via phone because it's so difficult to schedule anything without knowing S schedule AND a 9-5 job). She says happy birthday, you can text me, and I'm sorry. I tell her that before you said you had an affair and now you don't? She's not ready to discuss, but says she had fun today. We say goodbye.
Yikes what an evening. My head's in the clouds again, but I don't believe her re A I think it's semantics at best. I see glimpses of the old W in playing with S in pool, but she got out and spent 30 mins playing on phone while I did most of the work (she admitted this last part). She keeps saying S looks just like me. She feels like crap, is scared to death about moving and misses S. Oh, and she didn't say anything re divorce.
I'm not angry really. Actually the whole time I was pretty calm. I still know this isn't the W I know, she's not ready to be honest about much and I'm not ready to accept a woman that can't have a dialogue about the reasons she walked out on her family.
Not much to report today. She tried to call twice around 1 and I didn't answer, was trying to put S to nap. (Didn't work, so he was cranky most of the PM) She texted a picture and called, we talked about the kind of swim shoes he needs for school. I ended up going to Target later in the day and turns out we got the same kind. Told me she went to church with her boss' family and felt good running errands, so was headed to lake.
S and I went shopping around 3, got home around 4:30. Around an hour later he starts getting cranky, so we start bedtime about an hour early. I'll be taking him to his new school tomorrow, I'm excited about it and she's terrified. She texts asking if he's ok, and an hour later I say he's asleep. She gives me a list of stuff to pack in his bag which kind of annoys me, but I know she's worried and this is normal for her. We text a little more about how proud we are of him, and she says goodnight. I'm cooking and didn't answer it.....
She did say yesterday she had stopped drinking as of a week ago, but it's hard for me to trust much of anything.
I had the urge to say SO many things today about what I won't accept, won't deal with and the like. But I fought them and just said nothing. Everything was about S. She's probably going to be pinging me all this week, because I'll be taking him to and picking him up from school every day.
I'm going to keep looking for an IC tomorrow. I have accepted that my anger, triggers and resentment need to be worked out. Maybe I should look up a Church too. You know, it also bothers me when she says "it's not your choice." Really? I never said whether I'm taking YOU back or not!
Incidentally, I'm not a tattoo guy but I'm thinking about getting one on my hand (wrist? fingers?) of S initials and his birth date. Certainly not sure yet lol. He is my inspiration though, and pushes me through everyday. I owe it to him to do my best for his family, it's up to his mother if she cares enough to do the same....
Today was S first official day at his new preschool. I did dropoff, and he was a little scared. However, he pulled out a puzzle, his teacher started asking where each letter went, and I ran out ASAP as he settled down and acclimated.
WW is/was terrified. He had a good day, but was a bit too excited about the new toys and knocked a whole bunch of stuff off of a shelf. This is normal behavior for him in a new place, but WW freaks out about anything other than perfection. We've always been helicopter parents, but I'm able to step back and let him do his own thing for the most part. She's a worrier too.
Then she called me about 20 minutes later to ask how he did. Somehow, a row began. We traded barbs. I said it was tough working out the logistics, taking him to this house, that house, who picks him up, who sees him, etc. She said my not taking him to school is part of the reason we're in this. We argue. She starts going on a litany of reasons why it's my fault we're separated. I can't get a word in edge wise, refuses to pause and treats me like a 3yr old sitting in a little chair getting lectured. This is one thing she did while she was at her ugliest. Finally I can't take it, I blurt over her and don't stop. You left us every weekday 5-8 choosing trash over S&I. Refusing to see S over and over but now you want to play family. Every weekend you lied about going to the outlets so you could be with trash, stayed out till 4AM getting wasted and hungover all weekend. She tried to respond, I hung up on her 3-4 times. She texted about 8 times, and I couldn't answer because I was on the interstate driving to work.
Finally I let her through, and we talk for about 15 minutes. She's crying, asks for something about S. She says she's doing the best she can, going to therapy ASAP, stopped drinking, finally doing things she likes again.
We talk a little when I get to my desk, and says we had a great time at the park when it was us 3. I said, not really. You felt so cold and distant to me, but S had fun being with his M/D so it was good. She liked our pool time together before the little blowup, that she's trying to rekindle a relationship with me. She has to go....
She complained about her day today, and I think I did a really good job validating. "I know that frustrates you" "I understand what you mean" "That must be difficult for you"
I felt good, because I was going to offer advice but remembered the 5 LL story. We talk about S during the day, because she's terrified he won't do well and we'll need to find ANOTHER school. I try to validate her concerns, and tell her that once he gets in a routine he should do well. She agrees.....
She has gotten off work early, picked him up and brought him home. We talk for a minute about S, she has work texts and is about to go. She says, maybe we should just wait until we're both in therapy to address this but that she still wants her own apt. I don't think the apt is a big deal. If we were to start healing, it would be in a few months at best and she has to leave her rented room in about 6 weeks. I tell her after she leaves that, if we were to have any kind of R talk again, the best bet is to wait until S school situation looks good because we're likely to get too emotional again.
She's softened towards me, though her bad habits showed when angry just like mine have. I was struck by the "trying to rekindle a relationship" comment (I know it's a ground up thing, not a marriage thing). She is getting "herself" back slowly from my POV and is pretty adamant about getting therapy. All this impresses me. But to put all my eggs in this basket? Nah. We need to work together for S, otherwise I need to keep working on me. I've had false expectations before that cause me to fall off a cliff and let my emotions explode.
WW is leaning on me heavily about S and preschool. I try to validate her concerns, and believe I'm doing a pretty good job. "I realize this is difficult for you, I'll keep you apprised of everything." Instead of getting frustrated that I have to do so much for him, I'm happy to work together and do what's best for him.
I think it was smart to back off any talk about the future until the preschool stuff settles (and even then, not say anything until she's comfortable and has begun a talk). If I bring up anything while she's stressed, she'll throw darts and then run like a frightened deer. Plus, if I'm the one to break this rule, I'm probably all the way back at square one.
I think I may have found an IC. Evening and weekend appointments at an office near me! Yay! I need to call in and reserve a time today. I'm scared about telling a stranger my story, and likely breaking down here and there, but excited at the same time.
I tell her to just admit it and that the W I know would find her behavior abhorrent. I tell her I won't Facetime, text about S's day, help with apartment hunting, work with her on money or be there when she's sad if she can't even admit this. This goes on for a while, and it finally ends with her saying "I'm not a cheater." I ask, you didn't leave S and I over and over to spend time with some loser? She says no. She's sorry she gave me an ugly answer. She's not ready to answer a "loaded question."
WTF??? So I call her, and she says she's working on herself and trying to take things a day at a time.
Wait.......what? You called her after she returned to her place from your place? Why are you chasing her, continuing this conversation, and trying to get her to admit something?
This is what I was talking about earlier. When the two of you have just been together talking, or had a phone conversation.....don't turn around and call her again. You were chasing her all over the place!
RSG,
You have got to stop giving in to her buddy. I know it is so hard. I know you want to use S as an excuse to be close to her or talk to her. I was there!! Son was 3 the first time around. You will never fully grow and she will never be able to see that life will truly be without you if you continue to chase.
I know you still get that warm feeling everytime her name pops up on your phone. Whether she is calling or texting.
Based on what you are sharing with us there are so many times you are discussing things with her that you don't need to.
Just talk about son and only son. Don't be rude or mean. She is going to get upset!! But this is for you. You need to do this.
You can do this!!
I just put in a boundary that we only talk about S until everything is kosher with preschool. I didn't get a chance to call potential IC, I was too busy at work. I really look forward to going, and spilling my guts lol.
I do get a little annoyed when she calls/texts so much, even when it's only about S. When you say she's going to get upset, do you mean angry or sad? I'm doing pretty well when S is gone (I don't really contact much), but when he's with me she contacts me constantly. How was nap, what're you guys doing, did you get him from your parents, what did he eat, I'm going to gym, do you think I'm thin, I had XYZ for lunch, etc.
I'm still just 50/50 or so on whether I want her back. First thought is yes, but then I second guess myself about stuff. I'm happy with my improvements, I just can't really do much when I have S because he requires tons of work. I'm exhausted today, gotta get to bed early!
CBT your old threads are wonderful for me.
A great idea on 180: Don't mention the A!
Anger as a sword to attack is very bad.
Continuing to repeat in my mind that W and I are, for all intents and purposes, D and if we get back together it'll be a brand new M.
Give HER time to change (and see if she makes the old her better, like my goal is)
My lack of trust in her could be keeping her from trusting that my changes are for me
Listen to the little man in my head that screams NO NO when I feel angry
When a R talk starts up, don't engage but validate or just say that we don't need to talk about it now.
S had a great day at preschool today. He was hugging other kids, listened to his teacher, had a good nap, and was sweet. This made my day!!
Well DBers, progress today. I took little guy into preschool, and he seemed at home. As I drove into work I thought about WW once. "Wonder why she hasn't called yet?" because it's turned into a habit. Then heard them talk about the All Star Game on the radio and I didn't think about her again until I got to work. As I got my stuff situated, clocked in got a drink, etc WW texted me 4 times and called once. She actually used my name for the first time since she left and said she was worried. Once I sat down I finally saw my phone, and told her he was fine and doing well. That when I asked "Are you ready for school?" He answered by saying ready for school and friends. That's huge for him. She said she was crying, but I just kept to the subject of S.
She wanted to talk a little bit longer, but I said I'm really busy and needed to get to work. (Half true.) She said thank you for talking and have a good day, I was working and didn't answer. Around noon she texts again asking about his day, but also mentions her day as well. I wait until I'm done with my work, and tell her he's doing well and is at lunch but don't comment on her day. (It was commentary on her day, not necessarily discussion.)
It's hard, trying NC Parenting Edition. I want to really reassure her about stuff because I know she's a worrier. This is more like the real Mommy I know. The past 6 months, she had become so blaise about things. Mommy when it's convenient and whatnot. I just know I need to keep it to S, and keep things to a low roar.
I can keep this up. The "good" thing is, for a while she'll have him on weekends and that's my tougher time re contact. I'm thinking about trying out the gym to get in better shape. Maybe start at one day a week? Anyway, I need to look into it. Left a message for an IC today, she should call me back by tomorrow AM.
Just curious, why does she ask you about his day throughout the day? Where are you getting your info about your S's day at preschool? Can she get that info from the source you are getting it from?
How was nap, what're you guys doing, did you get him from your parents, what did he eat, I'm going to gym, do you think I'm thin, I had XYZ for lunch, etc.
But you keep answering her texts right? What if you told her you were busy with S and youd give her a synopsis after he was asleep at night?
If you dont want to have small talk with her, then stop having small talk with her.
Just curious, why does she ask you about his day throughout the day? Where are you getting your info about your S's day at preschool? Can she get that info from the source you are getting it from?
Agree. Why do you know about his every move at preschool but she doesnt?
He's at a new preschool with his first day being this past Monday, and since 3mos old he's always been at her school. I watch the cameras that are in the room, and she's not really able to look at them this summer as she's in charge of a preschool camp and has little downtime.
I watch the cameras that are in the room, and she's not really able to look at them this summer as she's in charge of a preschool camp and has little downtime.
In my opinion, if she's able to text you, she's able to check the cameras.
I watch the cameras that are in the room, and she's not really able to look at them this summer as she's in charge of a preschool camp and has little downtime.
In my opinion, if she's able to text you, she's able to check the cameras.
My point exactly:)
Well, this AM another good drop off for the little guy. He's really taking to the new school which is fantastic. WW isn't handling it well, as she misses him terribly during her day. But she's very happy he's doing well.
This AM, she sent me reminders about bringing his swim gear to school and I had already packed it the night before. I'm getting good at this stuff.
She's been sounding "closer" through texts than in quite a while. Using my name numerous times (the 2nd week she called me OP's name on the phone, and hasn't called me by name at all), saying nice things about me and generally being more pleasant. Well, this AM she called (because I inadvertently hit the call button on phone when getting out of car then hung up. ugh) and asked about dropoff. Was matter of fact and quick about it, noting it was positive. Conversation kept going, on her end, and she was mentioning what's going on, her friends and general goings on. I just listened. No advice, discussion, just listened. Felt weird, but I read that women go to people they trust just to discuss problems and "life" so I tried to do that.
She brought up money. I was so groggy and had no info in front of me so I said I'd just send an email. We have therapy bills, tuition, tag fees and preschool registration fee. I worked it out, and she got bent out of shape I asked her to pay half the Reg fee. I place this under tuition, as it MUST be paid for him to enter. She got miffed and asked how can I have an apt, get gas food, etc if she has to pay this stuff. I just said, normally that's something a H would take care of for his family. The last thing I'm doing is make her living alone easier! I mean, she had money for a tattoo and hair color, so she has money for S.
She said she looked at the cameras today because I asked, but she couldn't find him. (This is legit, it's naptime and he's behind a bookcase) I told her where to look and she said ok he looks good. Didn't seem angry or anything at me.
She also asked today if I was stand-offish. I'm not always certain about her word choices in context, so I looked it up. A synonym was detached lol.
Scheduled my first appointment w/IC today! Next Thurs at 6PM. I asked if she were pro-M, and she said no but was comparing herself to a church type counselor who is 100% pro so I thought that was ok. She's NEVER told anyone to D. I told her I wanted to give the best effort I could to saving my M, and she said great I'll definitely do what I can to help. I'm excited and terrified. Telling a stranger what I've told nobody else, but also getting help I need so I CAN give my best effort. I owe that much to S.
So, I text W tonight so we can get busy on next week's schedule for S. She has appointments and so do I. Her folks are coming in Saturday for a day visit and she'll have S from Fri night to Sunday night. I ask if she can pick up S Thursday, and she says sure. I just tell her to let me know when the rest of her appts are (she's told me dentist, doctor, lady doctor, eye doctor, etc) and she says "it's not your business and you probably don't care but Dr wants to talk to me about blood pressure meds." Whoa. She's 32 and in pretty good shape. However, she eats crap when stressed (and lately refunding or eating nothing), will workout hard even when she's had nothing but coffee and has been boozing a bit (said she quit last week, but who knows).
That worries me. Don't want to pester her about it, but I really would like to know about this. I get the sense sometimes she thinks I hate her/lost interest, and throws in little bits of info out to get my attention and try to get sympathy out of me. (Money, health, bad day at work, etc) Maybe it's a temp check?
RSG I started going to an IC about 3 weeks into my sitch and it's been massively helpful. Just the ability to get an external point of view on things has been massively awesome.
Also, I'm by no means an expert, but the blood pressure meds piece does seem like a covert temp check to me. There are definitely better folks around here to advise you there though.
Sounds like you're doing a decent job moving forward, keep it up brother!
I'm looking forward to a professional's POV as well, and to have someone to help me navigate my emotions. Also, NOBODY knows about the A while only my immediate family and best friend know I'm S. So, opening up to someone will be like lifting a burden off my shoulders.
When I read her text from last night again, it was so passive-aggressively worded that temp check seems right. "I want S's Mother to be healthy" isn't exactly the response she was hoping for.
As for today, well nothing yet lol. She asked me to let her know how dropoff went. I text her around 9 and said "dropoff was great." She said ok. CBTDAD told me she'd get upset if I suddenly cut down on chatting. Low and behold, I think she is. As for me, it's been a good week. I know that means I'm probably due for a crummy day soon, but I've had a great week with S and am excited he's taking to his new school. I feel even keeled, haven't talked to WW much and just living life.
She's picking kiddo up around 5:30 to keep him for a few days. I should finally be able to get some rest, that little boy is tiring!!
WW picked up kiddo. Zero interaction, just handed over supplies and asked if I wanted to meet at park Sunday to pick him back up. Sad to see him go, but he'll be back in less than 48 hrs.
I'm going to use this time to clean up, exercise, run errands, rest and do some reading.
RSG, use this next 48 hours as a gift of time. Get out and enjoy being alone. I know that sounds weird, but it's very important. Go do things by yourself as well as relax at home some as well. Dont spend all your time at home reading and "thinking"
Keep yourself busy. Enjoy the moment that you have to yourself. I know it's awesome having a little son and the love for him is great, but you need to know how to make you happy as well.
When she send you text of pics of son or other stuff kept it to a minimum of words. Just say thanks for sending or I appreciate the update.
Whatever you do, and this will be really hard, don't text her asking for updates and pics. I know you want to see him and know how he is doing, but it's important you show her you aren't co-dependent on the situation even if you are feeling like you are
As far as the limiting texting goes. She will get more upset, but then she will actually start to be nicer. The key is when she becomes nicer is to not go back to texting her and responding all the time. Keep the worlds and responses at a bare minimum.
Have an awesome weekend!
Thanks!! Yes, this time is def for me. I love my boy dearly, but M-F 6AM to 5:15PM is draining!! There are some things I HAVE to do, but I'm taking some time for me too.
She did send me a pic of him eating pizza, and said they went to the store and picked out their grub together. He was asking for pizza all week with me too, we just didn't have time to get out. I thought "AWWW" but just said "sounds good."
She told me when he went to bed, and I said good. I added hope he has fun tomorrow. We text about 5-6 times today. A couple days ago, I went back through my texts. Wow, I HAVE come a long way. When this started I was just happy to have a chat. Now, she's the instigator wanting my attention....
Thanks for the coaching. I see what you mean. If I "fold" a little when she starts getting nicer, she'll know she can turn on the charm and get what she wants. I've noticed she's started respecting me more, so consistent action across the board seems essential.
You have a great weekend too!!
Stayed away for the weekend, though I lurked a little bit while I waited at the mall. I had a really good weekend except a couple things I'll get into below.
Friday night was nice. Quiet, enjoyed laying about and doing what I wanted in my own time. Got up around 6:30, but was finally able to just lay rather than get up and rush out. Ended up getting back to sleep and laying around until 8:30. WW started with the pics around 10:30. I answered the first two pretty quickly, though with one word responses. Then the next batch around 11:30. I answered around an hour later while I was at the mall, one word again. Later, after lunch she text a couple of pics of him running around the park. I looked at them, but didn't answer until 2 hours later because I took a nap. She told me when he went to sleep and I said "sounds like he had a great day." I went to the mall, ran some errands and was able to lounge around the house. Not much thinking about things. I was able to read, but instead of the battle in my life it was about the Battle of Sharpsburg. I haven't read for ME since she left, it was nice.
Today, met around 9 at the park to pick up little guy. Never happened before, but when he got off of a slide and saw me he ran over, said DADDY! and gave me a big hug. Then as we walked from the playground to a grassy area, he wanted my hat and put it on his head. THEN he asked me to hold him. WW got a little jealous, asked him to come over for a hug and kiss and took a picture with him with my hat on. He had fun and obviously enjoyed being with M/D. WW and I chatted a little, and I really did feel like it was with a neighbor. I let her do the talking and only said a few words. She's got some stuff to do at work re finances, a bunch of people are quitting and she's doing lessons for fall term. She got little guy in my car, and before I could get in to leave she talked about work some more for about 5 minutes and I just listened. Finally said bye, didn't think twice and just drove off. Didn't feel a thing...
I asked a parenting question about 2 hours after I got home and we exchanged about 5 texts. She mentioned she's doing online classes for work, and trying to do things to work on S communication skills (which she's not been good with, whereas I have been ever since he started speech therapy) and the class is relevant to him.
Then tonight it got weird. Took S to the pool. We were doing great, he was doing so well swimming that a (nice looking) woman asked me if I taught him myself. After about an hour, he's about to get out and I notice he's stopped and pushing. Sure enough, just as I grab his arm.....POOP. @%#! I go through this again, like July 4th, except alone. Clean him up, pop his butt, tell him over and over YOU POOP IN THE POOL WE GO HOME. He freaked out of course, but didn't fight. We went home, he showered. I told WW what he did and asked for ideas. We shared some, and she asked about our schedule for this week which we figured out rather quickly. She then called around 7 to say goodnight to him, but he wasn't very interested and she seemed sad. As if she'd been looking forward to it...
So, this weekend, overall, was good. The pool incident put a damper on things, but it was a good test for me as a single dad. I didn't offer any pictures or shooting the bull texts, and only asked a few things directly related to parenting. She seems very interested in where I'm doing counseling, asking if it was on the road I live on. (It's not.) I didn't think about things much, and when I wondered aloud about what was going on with her I just told myself it didn't matter. She seemed nicer, and more respectful, to me at the park and spent a good few minutes talking about what she has going on and what they did yesterday (without my asking about it).
Overall, I think I'm actually detaching somewhat. I know I'm an attractive, intelligent man with a good job who may be 35 but looks 25 clean shaven. I'm more confident in who I am and what I look like than ever before. I'm a great Daddy and know that my little guy will always be my priority. I like where I am and feel pretty positive but know I have to keep working. I know I can have a happy life w/o WW ever being more than my son's mom.
Looking forward to this week, hoping to keep things up. I'm taking little guy to school, but she wants to pick him up and keep him tomorrow so I'll be going out for supper. T through Th morning will be my time, she'll have him until we meet next Su morning at the same park. But, first things first....follow my own advice and continue take it one day at a time!
Overall, I think I'm actually detaching somewhat. I know I'm an attractive, intelligent man with a good job who may be 35 but looks 25 clean shaven.
High Five!
Sounds good and encouraging to one like me just started on the separation journey.
I'd continue to recommend pulling back even farther.
I told WW what he did and asked for ideas.
Like this feels unnecessary to me. Why start a conversation about this? It isnt like you needed advice at that moment. There was no emergency. You handled it and moved on like an awesome parent. Whats the need to tell her this happened? And if you needed ideas, why not wait until the next time you see her?
Im seeing that right now she is getting everything that she wants. Constant updates on her son (and through him, you) without having to invest anything into your relationship. Im having a hard time seeing why she would ever want to change anything. I can read that youre cutting back some, and thats good! I'd think you would want to take it even further going forward.
Well, things taking a weird turn.
My IC called this AM to say she double booked on Thurs and asks if I can come in tomorrow at 7, so I text W and ask if we can change schedule. She agrees no problem.
4 hours later. "Can you pick him up today I don't feel well. I think I may go to the emergency room." I don't know how to take this, but try to be reasonable. She agreed to modify her schedule, so I am going to keep him tonight and she will pick him up tomorrow keeping him until Thursday night. She says she's going to the Dr tomorrow and I said "Don't fool around with your health, S needs his Mommy." She says "Do your part and don't contribute to my health problems." This is highly offensive, but I say "How did I almost send you to the emergency room? I don't appreciate being spoken to that way."
She says she's joking, and scared. She's never said anything like this before, but I ask if she wants to talk about it and she says no she just needs to reduce stress.
If these are lies, just trying to gauge my interest (or worse), I'll be really pissed off.
RSG, sounds like you handled it appropriately. Very direct and to the point, plus it tells her you won't let her treat you like that.
Hope the IC visit goes well for you today bud. Had mine this AM and am finding that I'm moving from the emotional side of things to the practical side of them. You seem to be well ahead of me, so I can't offer a ton of advice, but keep on grinding man!
I think I did ok. I DO know that a month ago I probably would've said sorry, or at least really asked what's going on and had things escalate. I certainly wouldn't have stood up for myself, so I'm definitely proud of that.
Little update: Last night we traded a couple texts about S getting scratched up at school. Freak out bells going off for some, but school notified us both so there was no way she wasn't going to ask. She then asked "how was bedtime" around 9 and I didn't answer. This AM, she says she's going straight to Dr, asks me to find out the kid who scratched him, when naptime is at preschool AND if she should get giftcards for his teachers at W's camp.
I said naptime is around noon, but you should call to figure out when he gets up. I hope Dr goes well.
She asks what my appointment is today, and adds she hopes Dr goes well too hoping no meds prescribed. She adds she almost went to ER because she had trouble breathing. I just respond to take care of your health for S....
Ugh. I've learned a few things though.
1) If I can be a little patient, she'll offer me the info I get a little ancy about in the moment.
2) Her choices are really affecting her health.
3) Standing up for myself has really helped. Both in my confidence and in the way she talks to me.
4) She is VERY interested in what I'm doing.
5) I'm getting the feeling she says things to me in order to get an "I love you" or some sort of statement like that.
6) She's spending money on new clothes, Starbucks and other luxuries but complains about paying for S school and therapy.
I guess putting those in different ways, I need to continue with patience, being a lighthouse, standing up for myself (ie boundaries), continue being mysterious, keep emotions out of conversations, keep $$$ issues all business and continue to be a great Daddy.
First day of IC tonight. Excited and terrified!
Feeling good tonight. IC was great. Didn't really get into anything ground breaking, mostly just me going through my story. She recommended Gottman, and I've noted that. It feels like a huge weight off my shoulders, telling someone a reader's digest version of my life the past 7 months. That hour went by really quickly!!
She recognized that anger is a huge area of work for me, and that one thing we'll do is figure out what lies beneath that since anger is a secondary emotion.
I'm scheduled to go back in 2 weeks, and I look forward to it.
This AM. She asked me to leave out some swim gear for him, so she could pick up as she drove by the house. No huge deal, OK.
When I get to work. 2 phone calls, 1 call to work line. I get back to my desk and text "what's wrong?" Turns out, there was a sub in S class and he was apprehensive. She was worried and "sad" and asked if I could call and checkup on him. I said, I'm kinda busy this AM but if you want to call and see how he's doing they will be glad to talk. She said ok.
I wonder if she did it? I doubt it. I'm proud of myself though, my initial reaction was to think it was OK since it involved S. Quickly realized it WAS NOT, but was a request for her H to do something she was perfectly capable of doing. Something a H would do for his W.....but NOT something a single Dad should do for a Separated Spouse engaged in an affair. Coconut, you may go a little overboard sometimes on your own, but your good advice popped in my head here so thanks!!
Lol, I'm honestly spinning for the time being, it's been a rough week and I feel like I have no direction, plus I do tend to swing to extremes... So take what I say with a grain of salt.
I think you did the right thing by not calling for her, but I think you missed an opportunity to validate. I can understand why that would make you concerned, I can see why you would want to call to check up on him... But I'm busy You &$& &$!&&. $$&&$ (go all qbert on her)..
In all seriousness though, I think you done good.
I'm just curious, have you always done everything for her? Is she not a very independent woman? She called you a bunch of times when that time could have been spent calling S daycare. My ex and I were separated before D began daycare. But if I had a concern, I didn't ask my ex to call. I called. But even if we were together, I would have called.
I'm just curious if she is so used to having you do everything for her or she is finding excuses to reach out to you?
She seems awfully codependent. If she is, feeding her the perks of having an H while she fired you from the job isn't going to help the situation. So good job on that one.
Rsg,
I am so proud of you!! Awesome that you told her to call herself. And you didn't do it in a "mean spirited" way either.
That is how you build respect from her.
Keep up on that distance like we have discussed.
Remember this is a marathon not a sprint
Ginger, that's a good observation. She is VERY dependent on me in certain situations. She's definitely an independent THINKER, but in terms of actions? Not really. I always called places, whether it was the doctor, school, therapist, ordering food over the phone. Me. Always.
She's always been one to depend on my advice and judgments. I made the bigger decisions, and I handled money. Politically, she's very pro-independent woman but in day to day life she likes the safety of traditional gender roles.
I hear what you're saying. I'm trying to fight my urges, and keep in mind I'm not a H helping his W right now. I think I take a couple steps forward and then one back, but I'm working. I do also think she finds excuses to chat, but I don't do much chatting anymore I just listen. And while I may read texts, I try not to respond very quickly if at all.
Cnut, I know you're in a rough spot right now. Just wanted to throw out a little thank you! You may be right about the validation. "I know you're worried about him, because I know you're a worrier and he was scared. But, I'm swamped at work and don't really have time to call. They are very open to talking about his day so if you want to...."
Cbt, I do see/hear the respect coming out. Like I mentioned above, I do slip a little when I take a couple steps forward but I'm moving in a positive direction. She sent a bunch of texts about an apt, talking about reducing her contributions to S tuition, and additional garbled info. Called once, texted more....finally got home and she called again. I pick up because I don't understand any of this lol. She says "we" have to look at this apt it's $XYZ, but I'd need to reduce on tuition. As she's talking she realizes all her info is wrong, and the whole thing is moot. She then asks if I called school about what's up with his naps (she picked him up today, talked with teacher and he's not napping well. If he doesn't want to nap, he does things to stay up, gets loud and won't listen.) I said yes, and told the teacher an idea. W didn't think of this but my idea was to give him milk at nap time so he has a full tummy. They don't use sippy cups in his class because they can get dirty. I said we could bring in a fresh one, clean it at night and bring back. Teacher said cool, I'll run it by Director. I said I would too when I pick him up.
Scares me that W didn't think of this, it's so simple. But, she's just now getting out of what I'd call mediocre Mom. Also, I wanted to ask why she couldn't just tell me what the teacher told her but that's something she's been awful at for a long time. (See above) Then we chat for a minute about this weekend. She wants me to keep him Th night, F and her pick him up S so she can spend the day with her folks who're coming on a day trip. She wants her folks to park at my house and pickup S. I'm apprehensive about this and haven't said yes/no (ie her parents using my house as a parking lot). She wants to drop him off in the evening because Su morning she's going to church. (Big positive surprise there. If true.)
Couple things: There is no WE in getting an apartment. I'm not ready for her to move back in, but we're separated. I'm not an ATM. Now, if her choices are roach motel and home, then I'll adjust tuition ratio because S doesn't deserve that. That's it. I've set pretty good boundaries, and I don't initiate conversation at all but realize I can pull back more and I'm working on it.
Update: I was so apprehensive about it, I just asked... why did you want your folks parking here again? She answered they're not, we'll just pickup S.
I just simply cannot make myself available like a H until she starts to show ANY kind of movement towards being a W. I'm almost certain she's annoyed, but I know I have to keep cutting down my availability.
Keep it up RSG!
Let her be annoyed. Don't be an a$$ about it or other things, but you are not her caretaker at the moment
Annoyed is good. Means she still cares
When she starts becoming indifferent is when you know it's time to worry
Keep it up RSG!
Let her be annoyed. Don't be an a$$ about it or other things, but you are not her caretaker at the moment
Annoyed is good. Means she still cares
When she starts becoming indifferent is when you know it's time to worry
Thanks!! I try to remain calm, and watch my words especially via text.
As expected, she said nothing else last night after I made it clear I was uncomfortable w/her folks leaving their car with me. But, same thing this AM. 2 calls to me 1 to my work phone while I'm driving and getting situated at work. She texts me about somewhat mundane things at preschool. He's in a different room today, and was freaked out. She felt terrible because he was crying, asks me to pickup a Fall Calendar at the front desk and wants to talk about S. I just text what's up and asks why the other parents knew the class was in a different room but she didn't know and if she should've brought his swim gear. I said I'd ask this PM if they use any communication and swim gear was right because Th is their water play day. (Luckily she DID bring it)
She asks me to pick him up earlier. I said I'd try and she texts a thumbs up.
She is definitely dependent on me re S. Every little thing about S, she wants to discuss and get my ideas/thoughts on. It's never been like this before, and when I have an issue I don't ask her until it's something I don't think I can handle on my own.
She text me about a dozen times, and I responded 4 times with quick, short answers. I can still cut down a little more I know, but I think I'm taking baby steps. I also see more respectful words like please, thank you, I appreciate it and the like along with more respectful requests. Not long ago I felt she was telling me what to do. Now she asks, using soft words.
Gotta keep with the boundaries. Especially knowing she needs me and my advice so much....
Especially knowing she needs me and my advice so much....
I liked to think to myself - If my ex and I were each remarried to other people, how would I handle things? How much would I text back? How often would I acquiesce to requests?
I think you should start considering things like that.
I'm starting to do that actually. It's not easy sometimes.
I picked up little guy today at 5, and traffic was so awful it took us 45 more minutes to travel the 5+mi to get home. W text and ask how his day was. Not really important, so I don't answer. Bedtime comes around, she calls 3 times and texts "why are you doing this?" I didn't answer the first call because I was going downstairs to fill his cup with milk, she called the other 2 times while I was downstairs.
I responded to the text and said he's about to go to bed. She calls again and texts saying she'd like to speak to S, so I let it through. She rubs her eyes and gets angry that I haven't given her an update because "she always does." She asks me to let her know how dropoff goes tomorrow, and I say fine but I'm not going to. It's really unnecessary, especially since she can check the cameras.
My question is, when she gets huffy and asks why I'm not giving her updates "when I (she) always clearly communicate about him" what should I say? I don't want to get ugly, but I feel it's unnecessary mostly and not realistic for our status as S spouses. Incidentally, I posted a picture of him on FB with the caption "Magic is when this kid looks at you and says I want a hug." She was the first to like it. And when she changed from a phone call to Facetime to see him, she rubbed her eyes like she's been crying and said she was just coming from the gym.
It feels so counterproductive to do this so firmly. I know DB says that means you're exactly right and to keep going, but making her angry just doesn't feel like it's drawing her to me. She mentioned "I've got enough on my plate without 'this'..." I'm not sure what that means, and I don't dare ask. That said, I wouldn't want her to come home eventually just because it means she would see S. I want her to commit to our M because of love and a desire to be a family. How does becoming a near black hole accomplish that? I'm not saying I'm going to do anything differently, I'd just like to hear the logic behind it.
Thanks gang!!
RSG, she needs to feel the loss, that's why it's the right thing to do. I'm not in your position with a young child, but I think if I was in your position when she asks why you didnt give update I'd say something to the effect of I was busy and it slipped my mind, I wouldn't acknowledge the part of even though she does, but if you feel like you must, maybe something along the lines of its not like I meant to not give you an update, I just had other things on my mind.
My question is, when she gets huffy and asks why I'm not giving her updates "when I (she) always clearly communicate about him" what should I say?
When Im with him, I want to focus on him. I can give you an update each day after he's in bed.
Or something to that effect.
I dont think so from your posts....but you arent regularly asking her for updates, right?
I see what you're saying. I like that!! I may try that one tonight. It's been so hard to be dim, I feel like an a-hole knowing she's crying but I know it's something I need in order to see what life's like w/o her and vice versa.
No, I stopped asking about how he's doing. She sends a few pictures on weekends, will ping me for advice and if there's a problem no matter how small. This is outside of real communication as well. "He needs XYZ at school today" "Do you have the shoes" etc.
My question is, when she gets huffy and asks why I'm not giving her updates "when I (she) always clearly communicate about him" what should I say?
When Im with him, I want to focus on him. I can give you an update each day after he's in bed.
Completely agree with darknes here. I know w/ my W this would be the perfect response were she constantly asking for updates.
Didn't say much last night. She asked if I was doing anything to "keep him" from her, and was pretty freaked out. I just explained no, I have had a busy week at work, he's doing well and I'll continue to send you info after bed. I'm trying to put phone away while we spend time together.....
She told me the plan with her Dr was to try to reduce stress and do more blood work in 3mos. That was about it.
This AM, said her parents are in town but when she came to pickup S they weren't with her. But she said they brought their little dog. She's house sitting right now, and will have to do blood work sooner than she thought. She has "small group" which I BELIEVE has to do with church, but she didn't elaborate because S ran out the door and so did the dog....because W never closed it. S was cranky and it was getting towards nap time which really annoyed me, because he's likely not going to have one today and when she brings him home at 5 he'll be nuts and really ready for bed.
She was in a good mood, said thank you for helping get all his stuff together and sorry that she was late (said she'd be here at 10 got here 11:15). I got him to spell mommy for her, as this is something new I taught him. He spelled daddy as well and she loved it. I said have fun with your folks and told S bye.
I spent some time this AM (while S played no worries lol) looking at old cbtdad stuff. One thing that really stood out was about how selfish it is to allow yourself time to change, but wanting her to do it immediately. It's hard. I like where I'm headed, and I feel like I'm changing things fairly quickly. Like others have said, it's easier when you don't see them. I just saw her for 5 minutes and I'm interested again, but my desire to know is less than ever.
Her journey is hers and mine is mine. I'm doing well. I'm reading more about how to communicate with women (going to read the 7 principles Gottman book next), becoming more and more convinced that I can be a single dad if necessary and confident in who I am and what I look like. My R with S is amazing, my folks even tell me they're really happy and thankful that I'm an even better Daddy than they thought I could be. I get them less and less, but I fight the urges to check up on W while I know she's navigating her waters as am I. I feel positive most of the time, I haven't initiated a conversation in a while, feel less angry and feel like I'm on a good path.
It's tough knowing I could become even better than I was before, and her still have no interest. I'm not saying I want to jump right back in, but I DO want to try. I guess I just have to realize it's been 2mos, not 6 or 8 or 12. I'm not where I want to be even though I feel I'm on a good path, and she's not still not yet the woman I'd want back let alone whatever she's thinking right now. I've read a lot of good posts from old cbt about controlling, about how even though you want them to do the right thing whether that be about parenting, the way they live, how they treat you, etc that they have their own views and desires. I'm a little like this and am working on it too. Not everything they do is for/against me, not for a reaction, not to make me happy/angry, not for anything but themselves. She's a strong individual, that's one of the things I've loved about her. Ironically, it's also how we butted heads because we have similar personalities and don't back down easily lol. This is obviously a big part of my reading....
I plan on taking some time for me today while S is gone. I'm going out for lunch at a really good place nearby for some great chili dogs. Beyond that, I'm going to take the dog on a long walk, shower, do some reading for me (ie not self help) and rest because it's been a long week at work! I'm not going to answer texts because I'm busy with my own life!!
So, she just brought S home. Feel like I was lied to. Highly unlikely her parents are in town and she was in a big rush to leave while drenched in perfume. Feeling a bit used....
Please start a new thread.