Let me introduce myself: I'm a very fit 40 yr old male with 3 kids under the age of 9 and a wife of 17 years who wanted a divorce but doesn't anymore. Sounds great? Yeah, it would be if she didn't want to just live as roommates.
Abridged story: Wife and I had great marriage for 3 years, I developed a disorder that put severe stress on our marriage. We had kids and she grew distant over the years, doing things with the kids and excluding me. I would call her out on it and she would deny excluding me.
At some point a couple years ago, she told me she loved me only as a family member. February 2016, she told me she wanted a divorce and had a whole plan of getting our finances straight and separating in a year.
I read Divorce busting, saw a local marriage counselor, and started the DB phone counseling. Local counselor was convinced she was having an affair. I was 99 percent sure she wasn't until I found some very intimate messages from her to another man. After digging a bit, I found out she had an ongoing emotional affair with my brother in law and had very recently had a physical affair with another man.
The physical affair had run its course and was over. Shortly after, my wife said she no longer wants a divorce. The problem is she is still talking to my brother in law, won't let me touch her at all now, and sleeps on the couch.
I've tried being the best person I can around her, but a couple days ago, I slipped up and got mad at her because she was taking the kids out of town to visit my sister and brother in law without me. She reiterated that she is only with me for the sake of the kids and has no desire to rebuild our marriage.
I'm at my wits end with this. She swears I'm the best dad in the world and we get along great but she is still keeping secrets from me and has no desire to reconcile. Do I keep trying to build a relationship doing 180s, do I move on, do I sit down and talk with her?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Correction, I read Divorce Remedy. The difficulty I've found is that my wife no longer wants a divorce and we get along great. It seems like going dark or moving on without her would make her angry at this point.
Tate, I'm sorry to see you here, but you've come to the right place.
I'm gonna keep this short for right now, but let me ask you:
1. You've not gone dark for years, is that working?
2. Does it make you mad that your W is having EAs and PAs? Why are you worried about her getting mad if you just do you and let her be?
3. Does your sister know about the A? I'm usually against outing the A, but I would seriously have to consider telling my sister if my W was having an A with her H, and my sister was inviting my W over for vacation.
I've never gone dark because of my kids. Over the last two years, my wife became more critical of me. Anything I did ot said was taken in a negative light. Once she wanted a D, she lightened up a ton. The local therapist said it was because she was relieved to make a decision. We get along better now than we have in years.
I'm furious about the affairs. The physical because she was a virgin when we got married (strict Catholic), and the EA because of the 6+ years of her lying to me.
My sister does not know about her husband. I found out because I called my sister for advice upon finding out about the affairs, and my wife sent me a msg to stop calling people. I put it together that me sister told her husband we were having problems and he told my wife I had called her. My wife slipped up. I don't know if I should tell my sister because it will make a huge mess.
One of my biggest fears right now is that I'm just being used to support my wife until she can figure out a new exit strategy.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
because she was taking the kids out of town to visit my sister and brother in law without me. She reiterated that she is only with me for the sake of the kids and has no desire to rebuild our marriage.
I'm not sure what the answer is but this is not an affair with a random person, this is your sister's husband. Now she is taking the kids to visit YOUR sister (and a man she is having an EA with) without you. I'm not sure what your relationship is like with your sister but through all the crap I've gone thru with my H one of the things that always infuriated me was thinking how H would feel if somebody was treating his daughters or sister the way he was treating me. What would you do if you found out BIL was having an affair and it wasn't your W? Would you tell your sister? How will your sister feel if she finds out and knows that you knew but didn't tell her? BTW, your wife didn't slip up past tense...it is ongoing. Again, I'm not sure what the answer is as far as telling your sister, just some things to think about.
Whatever it is that you are doing doesn't seem to be working. It's comfortable that you are getting along better but it doesn't seem like you're any closer to saving your M. I think what we all tend to forget is that DBing isn't JUST about saving our marriage, it's about saving ourselves. Your wife has made a decision to continue to live together as roommates while she is continuing to have an EA which she probably doesn't consider an affair because she told you the M is over. You need to really start applying things you have learned in DR and figure out what works. Work on yourself and what changes you can make. Figure out what 180s you can do and GAL! Focus on you and your kids.
There are some people on the site who are very good at DBing, I'm not one of them! lol I have managed to stop the D and as far as I know the affairs but our M is far from what I want. How long are you going to be satisfied living like roommates? You have to make some changes in yourself and how you are interacting with your W.
Tate, what has the DB coach advised, regarding your sister?
I did 3 sessions with a coach, and she was very helpful at helping me stop the D. At that point, the advice I was given was to treat my wife like an out of tiwn guest...be polite and somewhat limited in interactions. As far as my sister goes, I was told that if it would upset my wife, I should avoid it. She specifically added that I had my own problems to deal with and to minimize new problems. It was very good advice.
There was the first discussions between my wife and me today, initiated by her. It started out as a suggestion to be careful about me getting angry about her going out if town with the kids in earshot. The conversation progressed to trust issues of me snooping in her email and me trusting her that the affairs are over.
The short is that she will limit discussions with my BIL but she is nit interested in working on iur relationship.
The short is that she will limit discussions with my BIL but she is nit interested in working on iur relationship.
Rather ironic that the cheater is laying out the ground rules for the spouse who has been betrayed. She can toot the trust word at you all she wants, but she is the untrustworthy spouse, not you. Don't forget it. She will flip this around and try to make it appear as though you have violated her privacy by snooping and now she can't trust you. Do not allow her to play that game.
Since her lover is your sister's husband, it makes this whole situation very critical. It could destroy the entire family's relationship. Let's say that your W and brother-in-law run off together, maybe get married (I have actually seen this happen in a family). They will be gone and you and your sister will continue being siblings. When your sister finds out........and she
will find out.........the first thing she will ask you is, "Did you know"?
Did the DB coach tell you what to do when your sister faces you, wanting to know why you would not tell her? Are you prepared to keep this secret from her and your parents for the rest of your life?
I am not a fan of exposure, but I do make rare exceptions....like when it is within a family, and the WW has no intentions of working on her M. First of all, your W and brother-in-law should not see or talk to each other. An affair has to end abruptly and go cold turkey (there are no closures for affairs or tapering off). She has basically told you to suck it up b/c she's going to continue contacting him. She has the audacity to tell you that you'll just have to trust the affair is over! So, every time the family meets for dinner, you will be subjected to sitting there and make nice while they make eyes at each other?
Did your coach tell you how to deal with
those types of situations?
Have you seen or talked to BIL since you discovered the affair? Does he know that you know? He should be scared sh'tless that his W will find out........or scared of you! If he thinks you are going to be a good little boy while he plays with your W, he will make your life hell.
You need to think this through very carefully, before you decide what action to take. Do not warn your W of anything you are thinking, or anything you may do. Tell her nothing. Let her wonder what you are thinking. (I have a feeling she's not very worried, based on what she told you about her continuing to talk to OM).
I think it will boil down to you having a choice to make in where you place your loyalties, and what "doing the right thing" would mean to you.
To your knowledge, has your sister's H ever cheated on her in the past? Has your own W ever had an inappropriate contact with the opposite sex in the past?
The biggest fear of my wife right now is exposure of her EA with my BIL and the effect on my kids lives. They are like siblings with their cousins, and exposure would mean very little contact with their cousins. From the same token, exposure would destroy my wife's whole life. She has tried to build a life independent of me, but outing her would destroy all of her relationships...my family, her own family, my BILs family who we are also close to. It would shatter her world.
Our kids lives are everything to her, and outing her would have dramatic repercussions on our kids lives as well as my sisters 4 kids.
My wife wants to stay together for the kids. She told me she feels trapped now...and her physical affair dying off has made her feel stuck like this. She also said that she agrees with me that our current situation is not a stable one in the sense that I likely will not want to continue in a loveless marriage. She swears she has no intentions of divorcing me now and that a divorce would have to be initiated by me.
I believe her in that regard. She told me that for years she has just been playing the role of wife, showing me affection just to keep us together but that she won't do that anymore.
This hurts me because I care dearly for her in spite of everything she has done.
I can threaten to out her or at the least tell my BIL that I know what's going on, and she will make a clean break from him to save the relationship between the cousins. But, that will make me the bad guy and make her resent me more.
So summary: I can force a cold turkey stop to the EAP with my BIL, but that will act to trap my wife further. She is not scared of me divorcing her because she has no interest in loving me again. She is terrified of me outing her, destroying her lifestyle, my kids relationship with cousins, my sisters family, and many close family relationships...it would be a horrendous windfall.
Neither my wife nor BIL have had affairs in the past. If my wife's EA comes out to everyone, then things can head one of two ways: Wife will leave since her biggest fear came true and she has nothing to lose, or she will stay, feeling more trapped with her lifestyle of traveling to see relatives destroyed.
I've read on this forum that the WAW needs a big event to bring her back to reality. Outing her EA with my BIL would absolutely be a huge awakening, but it could very well end our M in an instant.
She told me that for years she has just been playing the role of wife, showing me affection just to keep us together but that she won't do that anymore.
Remember, don't believe anything she says. For lack of a more impactful way to say it, I think she's blowing smoke up your @ss.
The biggest fear of my wife right now is exposure of her EA with my BIL and the effect on my kids lives.
If she was that concerned about it she would not have been in the affair. There were a few times I thought of getting in an A, but I didn't put myself into that situation and I new the damages that could happen were not worth any kind of pleasure I got out of it.
I told her that in no uncertain terms that she made this mess and had crossed the line by her own decisions. When I told her my sister needs to know what's going on, she disagreed and told me that if I out her EA, it would be me destroying all of my family's relationships. Of course, I told her bull****. I told her that eventually my sister was going to find out. She said there is no way, at which point I reminded her that I found out. ..She's in denial that her EA caused our marriage problems and is causing my sisters marriage problems.
To some degree I want to focus on how to rebuild my marriage...how to get my wife interested in trying to rebuild. She is stonewalled now and believes that she has no desire to have a relationship with me. All she does is talked about the bad things in our marriage...the whole absolute negatives thing.
How do I start to turn the ship around and have her want to work on our relationship? On a separat ed note, I will be traveling out of the country for 2 weeks soon, and I know she has a hard time doing everything while I'm gone.
I've read on this forum that the WAW needs a big event to bring her back to reality. Outing her EA with my BIL would absolutely be a huge awakening, but it could very well end our M in an instant.
Stop right there. In this particular situation, it should be about your integrity and doing what you believe is right. Doing the right thing should be your primary concern, and whether it wakes up your WW is secondary.
Your WW is saying all the things every other WW has said. Plus, she is basically making you feel responsible for fixing........or rather,
covering her mess. Whenever the H takes the blame for his W's A........he is setting himself up to fail. In your case, it will take down your sister with you. Your WW is trying to make you think you will be responsible for tearing your family apart........when in reality, it is your WW and BIL who have done the damage by cheating on their spouses. Nobody is responsible for an A, except the two involved.
She believes she has you over a barrel by telling you it will ruin the lives of your children and the lives of your relatives by telling the truth. However, let me warn you, if you lie to them by covering her A..........she will never open her heart to you again. Why? B/c two wrongs do not make a right, and your M will based on a lie...........and so will your sister's.
Not only will she never respect you b/c of your lack of integrity, but the chances of her becoming involved in a PA (either with the BIL or another man) and finally leaving you......are even greater.
She should be begging and pleading with you. Instead, she's threatening and demanding. That tells me something about both of you. And the pitiful thing is that you are worried about losing her, aren't you? Not b/c of your kids, or anything or anyone else..........only you. And, you are afraid of making her mad b/c you think it could cause her to leave. I find it interesting that based on your account, she just assumes you will stick by her. Why is she not worried that she can cheat on you...... and you not dump her?
I'll give you a little history about some people who have come here. An over-whelming majority are made up by LBS's. I have been here nine years and it has been extremely rare to see a WAS/WS post. Would you like to know about a few WW's that came here with broken hearts over their own cheating behavior and asking for help to save their M? Oh, and of course, their A's had ended, so why were they here on a DB board? One common factor for those women was as soon as the H would discover his W had cheated........he was gone. You wanted to know something that woke them up? Well, there it is.
Anyway, it is your decision. Whatever you decide, you will have to live with it. I hope you make the right one.
I fully understand what you're saying, Sandi2. What I'm not sure about is the fact that my wife wanted a divorce and has prepared herself for one. As she put it, she expects me to want a divorce sooner or later given our circumstances.
I believe that a similar situation is layedoing out in DB...where you can state an ultimatum, but you'd better be prepared to follow through with it. I'm not sure that I am.
As far as the morals of the situation...that's exactly what is eating at me. I told my wife that my sister has the right to know. This is what scared her into offering to let my BIL know that I know what's been going on so he would end everything. She offered this to save my kid's relationships...and supposedly my sisters family. If it wasnt my wife involved with my BIL, I would lethink my sister know in a heartbeat.
Tate,
You are in a terrible predicament and I feel for you, I can't even imagine the struggle you are going through knowing what you know and having your sisters life so intractly intertwined.
I am going to come out and say what I think, because I think you may be looking for someone to shoot straight from the hip.
You SHOULD NOT allow your wife to vacation at your sisters house.
If you want to handle it as softly as possible, I would suggest telling your WW that she needs to cancel that trip, if she doesn't, call your bill and tell him he needs to cancel that trip, if neither of those options work, you need to call your sister and fill her in.
If you have any kind of good R with your sister, allowing your W to go there knowing what you know will ruin that, and no matter what, she will be your sister for life. Go down the line, set your boundaries, make sure your WW and your BIL know you will tell your sister if they don't cancel the trip, but DO NOT allow your wife to go on that trip without your sister knowing everything. I don't think you'll be able to forgive yourself, or your sister will ever forgive you, if it goes any other way.
I would put my sister before my W every time in your scenario.
Tate,
...
I would put my sister before my W every time in your scenario.
I would agree with this every day and twice on Sundays. It's a no brainer in IMO.
I would lethink my sister know in a heartbeat
This says a lot. It is your w and bil that are hurting the relationships in the family, not you. If my brother knew that his W was having an EA with my H I would hope that he would tell me.
so he would end everything
WHAT???? If she was really worried about any of this she would end it. You really need to stop letting her control this situation and stop rationalizing any of what she is saying.
I get you don't want a D, I know I have walked on eggshells to not upset H but this is at a whole new level. Trust me, living the way you are living is not going to make you happy. Ultimately it is your decision on how to handle the A, but the truth always comes out and eventually the family will be hurt regardless.
Tough situation. Take how to handle the EA out of the picture and you still need focus on you and GAL.
Thanks everyone for the outside views and advice so far. You are all making me feel a little less like I'm crazy.
So, I've been thinking things over quite a bit as expected and a couple glimmers of hope have stood out to me. The first is that my W approached me yesterday and told me she did not have a physical affair at all. I suspect she is lying because the first time I called her out on it, she didn't deny it. This is important because if she truly did not want to reconcile, she would have no reason to try to ease my mind. The flip side of that is she's trying to make herself feel better about the affairs because she feels guilt. Either scenario is progress, I think.
For the second thing, I will give a short background...The guy she had a PA with owns an exotic pet store. My kids wanted pets and ended up getting snakes of all things from his shop. Yesterday, I told my wife that I don't like the snakes around because they are a constant reminder of him. She apologized saying that she would have gotten rid of them but the kids are too attached now. Again, she's showing a hint of both remorse and compassion toward me.
...or maybe I'm just reading into things...
The sister situation is tough. My reason is I feel my sister should know, but it will leave mass destruction in its wake. I agree that I should put my sister first in this situation, but I'm not clear as to whether that means telling her or not intervening.
The situation with my wife travelling to visit relatives has a long history...One of the complaints I've had with my wife is that she always made time for everyone but me. She would travel out of town so often with the kids that I just couldn't go every time if I wanted to get anything done around the house. We literally always have bags in our dining room from her last trip...she usually empties them only to pack for the next trip. Yet, she could never have the time to relax with me or go out on a date. I called her out on this time and time again but she always had some excuse. Now, I know she was purposely excluding me from her life she was building on her own. Yesterday, she told me that she is not comfortable with me around on trips. Several months ago, we dropped the kids off at Sunday school and had half an hour before church. She proceeded to chew me out for smothering her by attending church with her and accompanying her on trips out of town. It really caught me off guard. The DB coach suggested I back off a bit, so I have.
The difficulty I have now with our relationship is that I don't know if I should be doing 180s, GAL, or going dark. Going dark and GAL might snap her back to reality a bit when she realizes how much she still interacts with me and likes having me around. It almost seems like that should be the start followed by 180s once she's on boardm with rebuilding our relationship.
Going dark and GAL might snap her back to reality a bit when she realizes how much she still interacts with me and likes having me around. It almost seems like that should be the start followed by 180s once she's on boardm with rebuilding our relationship.
Dude, you GAL, 180, and go dark for you. Its not going to snap her back into "reality". I struggled with this atfirst and my sich is similar to yours in that the W says shes sticking around just for our son.
Like you i did everything at first to "fix" the marriage. Now i do it to stay sane, be happy with myself, be my own man etc. If that attracts my W back to me at the end of the day then okay but thats not the goal. In others words im taking my balls back and being the man.
As for your sister situation, i dont envy you or have any wisdom to give cause im kinda new here too. I must say you are exceptionally patient with all her affairs, i'd be a seething volcano, an angel of retribution. I'd probably kick her out the house and call the sister. But hey thats me.
Tate, stop warning your WW about telling your sister the truth. That is you trying to control your W. It makes you appear as a wimp. What if you knew that your WW would stay in the M? Would that prevent you from telling your sister the truth about her H?
You do not giving a warning of what you are thinking of doing. This is not how a DBer works. You keep your thoughts from your WW. The only place to express them is here on the board.
The M you thought you had is over. Your WW admitted to faking it. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth, which can be seen in your own posts. The last thing on her mind, at the moment, is being with you. She is using the kids as her leverage. She is the only person she cares about the most.
Watch this and you will start to see it more clearly. The WW makes decisions based on what's in it for her. No matter how big or small, her mindset is all about herself. Her own selfishness motivates her thoughts and actions.
Right now, there is no way you can make her want to work on the MR. Nothing, unless she believes you are dumping her. And, she knows she has nothing to worry about, b/c Tate is concerned about looking like the bad guy.
The children and your need to look like the nice guy, are the two things she is counting on as her passport in continuing her lifestyle.
I realize you care for her. Usually, when a man finds out his W wants another man........his craving for her becomes more intent. Wanting something we can't have is common for humans. I don't know what you are considering to win back her heart. I suggest you focus on your character. What does your character say about Tate, the man? If your character says you are honorable, loyal, having high standards, etc...........then those characteristics need to shine. She has lost her moral code, apparently, so let your character shine out. Not as self-righteousness, but as a strong beam of light showing the pathway back into an honest relationship based on truth and love. She may bounce around like a crazy person, but you show strength by standing tall with long roots firmly planted, not wavering, and not pushed around.
While you are away on your trip, I hope you can use time to think about who you really are and what you want your children to be when they grow up. Think about your values and what you must have in your life. Think about what you will not tolerate in your personal relationships. Begin to think on your personal boundaries. Everyone has certain boundaries, whether they ever state it or not. Sometimes, we need to consider what we would if those boundaries were dishonored. Would we react? How would we react?
Finding yourself in a M where boundaries are not honored, must be devasting. In your situation, there are so many people to consider, and you may be feeling the heavy weight of a decision to make. Most people here can identify with your pain and the weight on your shoulders right now.
Sandi2, you're absolutely correct in that my wife has little to no concern about me. It is all about her, but I do believe she puts our kids and even my sisters kids above herself. She said that she sees me purposely hurting the kids if I were to tell my sister. FYI, we have only had this conversation once...
I do want to clarify that I am by no means not having a life over all this. I play sports and stay in excellent shapexample and I'm juggling a million projects and repairs on our house, a rental house, and two cars after a massive hail storm hit. The problem I see with this is that me doing my own thing (projects) is one of my wife's long standing complaints, so it may seem like more of the same to her. I've tried to drive the point that Ive always gone out of my way to keep things running by asking my wife to handle some of the projects...of which she could not even get started on by herself.
I do believe she puts our kids and even my sisters kids above herself.
If this were true, she wouldnt have gotten involved with BIL in the first place.
Anytime an affair continues, and especially after confrontation from the WW's husband.......she is not putting any children before herself.
What and who your W once was, is not what and who she is presently. In your mind, you still see her the way you want her to be.
I'm not saying she has stopped loving her children. I'm saying women change when they get involved with another man. When waywardness takes over, they are no longer the girl you married.
Once again, Sandi2, you nailed it. She is not the person I knew...the person who would never cheat on me.
I guess the only to force a stop and ensure a stop to the affair is to expand who knows about it. Is it enough for me to confront my BIL, do I tell my wife she needs to have a sit down with my sister, or do I just tell my sister? Each of these would end the EA for good, but some will have additional fallout. Either case involving my sister will have the most fallout, of course.
On another topic, my wife and I have always had schedules of sorts during the week. I exercise 2 days during the week while she takes over family duty, she does the other 3 days. This doesn't leave much time for me doing anything else...basically, I have always worked, exercised, done projects around the house, or spent time with the kids. For me to add nights out with friends, for example, this will prevent my wife from doing things in her typical schedule. This will make her mad. Is this okay to do?
Of course I thought of the irony of her getting mad at me for not relieving her of family care when she wanted a divorce and custody of the kids...where's her free time then..
I guess the only to force a stop and ensure a stop to the affair is to expand who knows about it. Is it enough for me to confront my BIL, do I tell my wife she needs to have a sit down with my sister, or do I just tell my sister? Each of these would end the EA for good, but some will have additional fallout. Either case involving my sister will have the most fallout, of course.
You cannot depend on your wayward wife to have an honest heart to heart with your sister. The only way you should even consider your W telling her anything, is for her to do it in front of
you. Otherwise, she will put her own twist on it. You cannot trust a cheater. In this case, there are two cheaters in the family.
By confronting your BIL, are you thinking he would agree to end the A and would have no future contact with your W? Do you see this as a way to avoid hurting your sister?
Is your BIL aware that you know about the A?
I understand you want as little fallout as possible. Honestly, I don't see how the four of you will ever be able to be around each other again. You and your sister,
or you and your W, but certainly not the four of you. Even if your sister was not told, don't you think she would want to know why your W never went around her anymore, or why you and the BIL acted strange around each other? Do you really think you could go to family events and see your BIL there.......or see him and your W together in the same place? Your parents will know something is out of kelter, if this is covered up. Eventually, your sister will learn the truth, and then she will be angry and hurt at you for not telling her.
There just doesn't seem to be an easy fix for this disaster. I am so sorry for you, your sister, the kids, and your parents.
Yes, the intent was for me to be present during the heart to heart between my wife and sister. I can almost see it play out in my head...my wife crying but my sister in excruciating pain. The pain would be there any way my sister finds out, but I almost would want my wife to see the pain she is causing with her actions.
My BIL has no idea that I know what's going on.
Yes, by confronting my BIL instead of telling my sister, I would be trying to end the EA without ending her marriage to my BIL...basically tell him he needs to stop all contact with my wife or I tell my sister everything. The other motivation for him if that isn't enough is that if his family finds out, they will ostracise him. He and his family spend enormous time at his parents lake house. My family spends a lot of time there as well. It's an awesome and very special bonding place for the cousins and our kids...and apparently my wife and BIL. His family would not allow my BIL or my wife to visit it anymore if they knew of the EA.
It's very surreal, but I have been to my sisters house since finding out about the EA, and I did not feel anger toward him...just hurt. He has been my favorite relative to hang out with for the last 20 years. It is similar with my wife. I guess I care about them both deeply and am more hurt than angry.
It's very surreal, but I have been to my sisters house since finding out about the EA, and I did not feel anger toward him...just hurt. He has been my favorite relative to hang out with for the last 20 years. It is similar with my wife. I guess I care about them both deeply and am more hurt than angry.
Is that because you think an EA is not as bad as PA? not to mention that you think they only had a harmless EA? as far as you know.
No, I actually think the EA is much worse than a PA. Her EA has been going on for years as far as I can tell. I don't think it got physical, but I could very well be wrong.
Of course my wife is passing it off as not a big deal, adamant that it has not hurt our marriage and is not hurting my sisters marriage, blah, blah...she even went as far as saying it helped our marriage stay together for as long as it has. As you can expect, my response to her was bull****.
What I really don't get is that my wife is lying, covering up, deleting email accounts, etc. I already know about the affairs, and she swears she doesn't want to love me again, so why go to all that trouble? Is it just to keep me from getting so mad that I leave her and the kids, or does some part of her still want to rebuild our marriage?
Yes, the intent was for me to be present during the heart to heart between my wife and sister. I can almost see it play out in my head...my wife crying but my sister in excruciating pain. The pain would be there any way my sister finds out, but I almost would want my wife to see the pain she is causing with her actions.
My BIL has no idea that I know what's going on.
Yes, by confronting my BIL instead of telling my sister, I would be trying to end the EA without ending her marriage to my BIL...basically tell him he needs to stop all contact with my wife or I tell my sister everything. The other motivation for him if that isn't enough is that if his family finds out, they will ostracise him. He and his family spend enormous time at his parents lake house. My family spends a lot of time there as well. It's an awesome and very special bonding place for the cousins and our kids...and apparently my wife and BIL. His family would not allow my BIL or my wife to visit it anymore if they knew of the EA.
Can I borrow it? Borrow what you ask? The crystal ball you used to find out exactly what would happen in all these scenarios.
Not for nothing, but you, I, or anybody else knows how others are going to react in a given scenario. I do agree with you that there is likely going to be a lot of pain, anger, arguments, etc, when all of this is exposed (and it will come out eventually, at least to your Sis). I can't imagine what you are dealing with to have a well liked family member as the OM, but I read this and think that you believe you have it all figured out.
It wouldn't surprise me if your BIL knew that you know. Why do you think BIL's family would ostracize him, you may find blood is thicker than water.
I think the thing that you need you focus on figuring out is what is going to make you feel like you did the right thing about your sister finding out. Would it be better for you to tell your sister, or wait until she finds out and defend why you didn't tell her. You've pointed out the reasons that you would do either, but at the end of the day, what do you think is going to make you feel like you did the right thing (because she may not be ok with either option you choose).
My biggest concern with me telling my sister is that she will hate me for it. She's the happy little stone tumbling along unaware of this horrible thing looming.
Aside from the decision that I need to make on letting my sister know, my concern is how should I be around my wife? I truly think I am a much better person right now than I have ever been. My wife said she has noticed this. She stated that she was planning on divorcing me regardless of the other guy but decided she could live with me for the kids sake since I have been so nice to be around since the bomb drop. ...she just doesn't want to be in love with me again as she put it. I'm not sure what to do with that...do I keep being the best I can be spending as much time as a family as I can, or do I go out with friends and show her what shed be missing?
Now for the next hurtle in this awful story...my annual family trip is next week. Every year, my parents, sisters and I get our families together at a lake or beach house for 4 days or so.
Yep, my BIL will be there. I'm not sure how to handle this situation. Usually I look forward to this trip, but this year I'd rather not go...
Tate,
Look at the family trip as a wonderful DB opportunity. Every time you're near your BIL you should walk over to him and pat his ass and blow him a kiss, and maybe give him a little wink as well. In fact, I'll send you a couple hundred bucks if you promise to do that while wearing a pink bikini.
That may not be DB, but it'll probably take his mind off of your wife for a little while.
Wow doodler, that would definitely fall under the subject of this thread "Awkward situation" and would most definitely take the BIL off of Tate's wife at least for a few minutes...
Tate - good luck with the family trip. It's not easy putting on a face for all of the other family members that have no clue as to what is going on and yours is way worse than mine. No one has any clue about who the OM is.
Should clarify, no one knows who the OM is in my sitch.
Thanks, lfm. I went to a joint 40th birthday party put on by my sister last month and played it off as if I was having the best night of my life. My wife was sweating bullets, afraid I was going to confront my BIL in front of both our families.
This trip is a more intimate setting, and Im not sure if I can pull it off. This is what really [censored] about this whole thing...my wifes affairs have made it akward and painful for me at family events when she should be the miserable one.
The more you attend family events that include the affair partners, the more your WW will believe you are accepting the fact her affair will continue. How much time has already lapsed since discovering their affair? How many times have you been around BIL? And now, the family is going together on a trip.
Here is what I think you will do. You will do nothing. You will hurt and keep hoping your W will eventually end an affair that has been going on for years, and you will hope against hope she won't leave you. In the meantime, you will try to look the other way.
It is your life, Tate, and it is your choice to live in a lie. If your W had any sense of decency and/or respect for your parents (we already know she has none for you), she would excuse herself from joining the family vacation. However, she sees it as an opportunity to be around the BIL, and her selfishness will over-ride her sense of doing the right thing.
I agree, but the dilemma I have is that my kids Will no longer be welcomed to see their cousins whom there basically grown up with.
From the same token, my wife refuses to give me access to our phone provider stating that I invaded her privacy and she will not allow me to do that with the phone.
She says the PA is over with the other guy but she is still friends with him on facebook as well. I think it's definitely ok to insist she unfriend that d bag. How do I persuade her to remove these guys from her life?
Tate, unfortunately you can't make her do anything. You can only decide what you will do if she doesn't (boundaries).
You can tell her you won't be in an open marriage, and ANY contact with any OM is considered open M by you, and if there is contact you will do X. It's not easy, you have to decide what you will or won't accept in your life, and enforce those boundaries to protect yourself.
As for the phone company, just call them and find out how to get access, don't let her dictate wether or not you have access to your accounts. But, u know she's in an A, so I don't know what you hope to gain by accessing them.
Tate. My WW had an EA. I accessed some texts etc and met the OM. I honestly got very little benefit out of it. Even though I thought the OM was a looser. I would personally advise staying clear. You have to think about this and it is your choice but how can you use the information you find. She will only twist whatever you say and use it against you. If not you will only feel more pain. I would advise distancing yourself so you feel as near to zero pain as possible from any thoughts of her and the OM and her generally. Respect and love her still but to be immune from any perceived power or control you have previously given her is, I am sure, the answer. Work on your own independence and happiness my friend. You can't loose with that. I wish you well. Surfer.
I agree, but the dilemma I have is that my kids Will no longer be welcomed to see their cousins whom there basically grown up with.
Why? Are you saying your sister would ban her brother's children from seeing her kids? Why would she punish your children?
Are you saying that you would cover the A, and continue to live a lie........so the kids can play together?
She says the PA is over with the other guy but she is still friends with him on facebook as well. I think it's definitely ok to insist she unfriend that d bag. How do I persuade her to remove these guys from her life?
Do you know how many affairs your W has had since you've been together?
I want to get off of this for just a little bit and ask you about your parents. What are they like as a couple? Who would you say is in charge of their relationship, and which one leads?
How close are you and your dad?
I hope you will answer these questions.
The 2 affairs are the only ones.
My parents have a good relationship. They do bicker a bit, but the y joke with each other, travel together, relax together on the couch, and yes, they have sex regularly. They generally make decisions together, with my dad handling projects and bills, my mom handling household. I am close to my dad as well as my mom.
My wifes parents are the distant ones...they cohabitate, with her dad always eccentrically blabbing about religion and politics, and her mom playing the role of caretaker, grandmother, chores, and projects. Im pretty sure they have not been sexually active in decades. My wife has developed the same take charge mentality as her mom, always setting the kids schedules without even talking to me about it. Shes a teacher, so she would plan trips out of town and leave before I even got out of work, or traveling in the summer mid week when I cannot take off from work.
If it wasnt clear in my answer, yes, my wife likely has daddy issues. She sees him as a family member but somewhat of an outcast.
Heading out for the family trip tomorrow. I'll see if I can put on my happy face for the week.
Hope you do okay. Personally i couldnt be anywhere near OM myself. I dont envy your position.
Will your W be on the family trip, too?
I'll see if I can put on my happy face for the week.
Tate,
I'm asking this seriously, what would happen if you don't put on your happy face for the week?
According to your signature the EA started in 2010. Maybe it's time to try something other than same old happy Tate.
I don't know what to do regarding DB, but doodler would make certain the BIS understood he was a great risk of losing the family jewels. Why are you the one who has to be uncomfortable at the family get-together?
Yes, my wife will be on the trip. I will have eyes on my wife but I will play nice. You see, after this trip, I will be out of country for 2 weeks I don't Need to give my wife a reason for talking to my BIL while I'm gone.
Tate,
Is it possible that your wife may already have plans for those two weeks you're away? Occasionally WWs are crafty; you know, like a step (or maybe 100 steps) ahead of the LBH.
Always possible, but as I've learned, I cannot control what my wife does. I can only be the best me and make her regret her actions.
I did slip up a bit and get angry at her for not following through with some chores she had said she would take care of while loading up the car for the trip. She got angry at me and said "see, this is why I hate you" in front of all 3 of my kids. I calmly asked her to stop and moved on with the packing.
So far, she has been sweet as can be on the trip.
Tate,
You're a very patient man. I have difficulty handling those situations.
I hope the sweetness continues and I hope you have a wonderful time at the family get-together.
Just remember if you do decide to take the BIL out. Make it look like an accident. Its a family event you'd have plenty of alibis
I'm pretty patient. I did recommend that we not shoot guns on the trip when my sister asked if we were okay with our kids shooting guns...
Howd the weekend getaway go?
Hello Tate,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It is safe to say that your wife doesn't need a reason to speak with your BIL while you are out of the country. The EA they are having is reason enough.
What are the 180s that you have been focusing on? What about you taking the kids for some fun without your wife?
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to get you scheduled to speak with your DB Coach again.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Its been a while since I last posted on here...several things have happened since then.
We went on our famioy vacation. I nkticed my wife steering clear of my brother in law. I steered clear of him as well. Nothing much of note.
The day after my famiky vacation, I was leaving the country for work. My wife lingered around me that evening like she had something to say...but didn't. The next morning as I was heading out the door for my cab ride to the airport, she kissed me goodbye. I didnt say a word, although my mind was asking why she kissed me...
I was on travel for two weeks and texted her pictures with short messages throughout the trip, mainly for my kids to see. While I was gone, she spent significant time doing projects around the house...unusual for her. When I came home, she acted relieved that I was home again, but she hasnt touched or kissed me again.
Before the trip, I was planning on talking to my sister about her affair when I returned. On my trip, I read the book Love Must Be Tough, which stressed that the sure w a y to end an affair is to really show your spouse what they stand to lose...to ensure they feel the impact of their indescretions. It provides a solid arguement that I need to expose the affair to ensure that not only my wife must halt any affair, but that my brother in law feels the impact of his wrongdoings as well. It made me realize that my sister must know of the affair so that he will also feel the impact of his choices...and steer clear of my wife.
The two things keeping me from telling my sister are that it appears my wife is trying to move back to me...and that revealing this monster will surely halt visits between the kids. After all, how would that work...my wife stays at home and my BIL leaves his house while I bring the kids over? We live in different cities and stay with relatives so the kids can see their cousins.
All that said, my sister has planned a birthday party for one of her kids and one of mine this weekend. My wife is planning to attend for just the day or by staying with her mom the night before. My wife is experiencing part of the problem in that she used to stay at my sisters house, but now she knows she cannot. My guess is my sister and BIL are going to suspect something is wrong in any case since she will not stay at their house anymore...
Sorfy for the long post...as I said, a lot has happened, and Im not sure how to handle it now.
Sorry, I've not read to the bottom of your thread as yet so someone might have already mentioned this but it looks to me like you are taking on all the responsibility for outing the EA. Surely it is down to your BIL to come clean to his own wife? You can address the issue of you knowing with your Sister later but at the moment he seems to be going along in his own little world whilst your family is falling apart! Your sister may not understand at first why you didn't tell her but her husband needs to be the one who owns up to it as he has messed up and not you. I agree that in this situation neither option is a good one however I would rather not have the burden of carrying around such a huge family secret for someone else!
I agree that my BIL should be the one to tell my sister, but I'm sure he won't. My drive to tell her is that I believe she needs to know, but more importantly, this would halt him from trying to message my wife anymore. I've thought of just confronting him without letting my sister know as well.
The two things keeping me from telling my sister are that it appears my wife is trying to move back to me...
I bet she's playing you, just like she's played you before.
Sorry.
...and that revealing this monster will surely halt visits between the kids.
That would be bad for the kids. But what about the long-term consequences of the situation? Some day it's all going to come out, and the kids will know whether you acted with integrity and wisdom.
Just my $0.02's worth. I realize it's easy to hand out opinions when you're not knee deep in it....
I agree that my BIL should be the one to tell my sister, but I'm sure he won't. My drive to tell her is that I believe she needs to know, but more importantly, this would halt him from trying to message my wife anymore. I've thought of just confronting him without letting my sister know as well.
Your drive to tell her should be because shes your freaking sister! I want to hit you over the head. In a good way.
Newest event is that during a discussion with my wife about her plan to stay at my sisters house on a visit the weekend, I told her that her continued contact with my BIL via texts and her still having the PA guy as a Facebook friend were hurting me, us, and our chance at working on our relationship.
Her response was that she will not stop either and that if I involve my sister she will divorce me in an instant. ...what to do now?...
Only you can decide how long you will accept being bullied and intimidated by her threats and living with the status quo.
Surely you can inform your sister what is going on between you without speaking to her husband's involvement? Perhaps even suggesting that her unaccompanied visits are't appropriate for now?
Having said that, no one looking on from the outside can answer your question because none of us have to live the consequences.
I can sense your pain and your fear. The pressure cooker you are living in has no relief valve other than by you as your wife sees no reason to stop. She has no respect for you or your family, sister included.
I am not advocating divorce, but I am suggesting that continuing down the path you are on might be worse and eventually gain the same result. Step back, write down pros/cons, seek an independent, unbiased sounding board and then decide how you need to proceed to achieve what you want.
Wishing you well.
I like ancient warrior's post.
Personally, I'd tell her. I'd bust it open, and realize it's going to be a really choppy ride for a while. Like enormously bad. But the truth will expose the lies and deception, which will have to end sooner or later.
Her threats are a barking dog. Don't let the threat of D be a determinator of what your action should be. Do what is true and right, and realize you'll conscience will thank you later.
It is a tremendously awkward situation. I would understand you not saying anything yet.
The truth shall set you free. Keep posting.
You have received good advise Tate. Time to grow a pair or be a pussy in which case she will likely just leave you for her relationships anyway.
Can you live with such gross dis-respect from your wife? If my W did the same and threatened Divorce for telling me the truth i'd be like bring it Bi#tch!
* that shud have read for me telling the truth. Not telling me the truth.
Her response was that she will not stop either and that if I involve my sister she will divorce me in an instant. ...what to do now?...
That's just plain trashy. First things first, really sit down and think about what you want. There's no way something this weird isn't going to bust at the seams and create chaos all over the place whether you're the one to reveal it or not. Someone will get careless.
This has nothing to do with your choices, I'll respect them no matter what you choose. Were it me, I'd be done and just announce it myself. I simply could not abide such wanton disrespect and insane behavior. But, like I said, I don't have to live it. Don't act on impulse, but try not to be scared. Good luck to you!!!!
So, I accompanied my family out of town this weekend even though I didnt have time to. If it hasnt been clear, my wife travels out of town at least two weekends per month to visit relatives, often at the expense of keeping up at home. Historically, I would stay home many of thise weekends to get projects done. Not anymore. Im not letting her enjoy trips out of town while i toil away.
So, I realized the hardest thing about exposing my wife would be the effect on my kids. I simply cannot take them to see family as often as my wife. Im actually not concerned about my wifes threat of divorce. Her biggest fear is messing up our kids lives and the great place they are in. Exposing my wifes affair would have a huge impact on my kids, but divorcing me would only make everything worse for our kids. I doubt she would go through with it. Exposing her would alienate her from my entire family, her own very religious dad, and even my BILs family who would be mad at him.
The only thing keeping me from exposing my wife are my kids and I just cannot get myself to hurt them. Im really distressed over this situation to the point of losing sleep over it this week...
The only thing keeping me from exposing my wife are my kids and I just cannot get myself to hurt them. Im really distressed over this situation to the point of losing sleep over it this week...
I dont know. Its not going to get better you know, infact now that she knows she can get away with it and that you will kowtow to her i wouldnt be surprised if she takes it to another level with her outside relationships.
She doesnt respect you, your M or your kids. She just wants everything the way she wants it. I went through the same thing. You will be amazed at how these wayward spouses thinks.
Just to share, despite reading everyone elses threads, i believed my w was different. Boy was i wrong. She just hid it better, mine even acted wifey that i deluded myself into thinking we could be piecing. It took awhile for me to see through the smokescreen.
You have yet to see through the smokescreen, she will use everything. Thread of divorce, kid maybe, ruining your life maybe with false accusations, threats (which she is already doing now).
I feel for you cause i am/went through the same boat.
So, I realized the hardest thing about exposing my wife would be the effect on my kids. I simply cannot take them to see family as often as my wife.
The only thing keeping me from exposing my wife are my kids and I just cannot get myself to hurt them. Im really distressed over this situation to the point of losing sleep over it this week...
So, are you saying that you will continue to tolerate this A, b/c otherwise, your kids won't get to see their cousins as often?
The only thing keeping me from exposing my wife are my kids and I just cannot get myself to hurt them. Im really distressed over this situation to the point of losing sleep over it this week...
which will hurt more, the truth of the situation or allowing your kids to grow up in a house where this behaviour is Condonable ....where they learn that it is ok for a marriage to be dishonored and it is ok for a woman to treat her husband like this?
our kids are smart and they pick up on this crap, better than we think. and this is exactly how they learn to forge their future relationships.
Thanks everyone for your responses. Even though it seems i am not taking your advice, i am listening and using everything you say to decide my future actions.
Natus, thanks for your responses. I am starting to see how deep my wife lies. You see, I have private emails and messages from her to my BIL with some information on her actions. I purposely ask her questions that I know the answers to to see if she will come clean. Of course she lies...
The trap I am trying to avoid is revenge. I do want our marriage to work, but part of me still wants to get back at her and make her life miserable for what she has done. It would be all too easy to do this. That is why I am agonizing over outing her to my sister...I cannot decide if that's just me wanting to make my wife pay at the expense of my kids and may sisters kids.
The other thing I take into account is that some people responding are on their way through a divorce...I'm not sure their advice is best for keeping my marriage intact.
And to the two responses that point out that leading by example is also very beneficial for my kids are absolutely correct. I can see that my wife's idea of living in a partnership void of affection comes from how her parents live...it's obvious that they are married only on paper.
Even though it seems i am not taking your advice, i am listening and using everything you say to decide my future actions.
Tate,
I find you so exasperating that I'm heading over to Lowe's right now to buy some power tools.
So, I realized the hardest thing about exposing my wife would be the effect on my kids. I simply cannot take them to see family as often as my wife.
The only thing keeping me from exposing my wife are my kids and I just cannot get myself to hurt them. Im really distressed over this situation to the point of losing sleep over it this week...
So, are you saying that you will continue to tolerate this A, b/c otherwise, your kids won't get to see their cousins as often?
And to add to this, if you DO tell your sister, you believe that YOU are the one that will be "guilty" of damaging the relationship between the cousins?
Absolutely not. It's like a car wreck...you may be in the right, but you still want to avoid wrecks at all costs.
I don't mean to offend anyone,but to put this a bit bluntly, I'm looking for experience advice from someone who has some insight into a scenario like this and is NOT separated or filing for divorce. This is a divorce busting site, yet it seems the majority of people on this board are not succeeding at stopping their divorces.
I guess the big question is aside from telling or not telling my sister, is there anything else I should be doing in dealing with my wife?
The conversation keeps coming back to my sister...that is on hold for a bit while I reason through all of the consequences.
My wife and I get along great in daily interactions, but she swears she will never want to work on our relationship, get close to me, or love me again. When asked what her plans are if things continue the way they are, she simply responds with an I don't know.
Absolutely not. It's like a car wreck...you may be in the right, but you still want to avoid wrecks at all costs.
So what is your goal? To have a happy marriage or to avoid "collateral damage"?
To add to your analogy, sometimes your car gets some minor dings and dents, but you just keep driving it, not being able to justify the repair costs. But eventually, you get into a crash, and require extensive repairs and the car comes out looking new again. Of course, you arent going to TRY to crash, but sometimes, it happens, and it works out for the best.
Have you read DR and gone through the process of goal setting? What are your "30 foot putts"?
My wife and I get along great in daily interactions, but she swears she will never want to work on our relationship, get close to me, or love me again.
How can you two have an effective relationship when there are 3 or 4 people in it? The advice is focused on your sister, because you cannot improve things with your W until the other people are out of your relationship.
I don't mean to offend anyone,but to put this a bit bluntly, I'm looking for experience advice from someone who has some insight into a scenario like this and is NOT separated or filing for divorce. This is a divorce busting site, yet it seems the majority of people on this board are not succeeding at stopping their divorces.
You probably wont offend anyone, but I think it is an extremely limited view. The value should be on the process, not on the results. I could have DB'ed 100% perfectly and still gotten divorced. There is nothing I can do or could have done to control my ex's thoughts. Does that mean Im not qualified to provide my thoughts to you? If you choose not to want my opinions, fine, Im more than happy to leave you to it.
Take a big step back. Take a deep breath. And look at the whole mess in front of you.
Your W and BIL have created a dysfunctional, destructive situation for all involved. This is something that will have long-term consequences not just for the adults, but for the children.
It's time to extract pride, worry, fear and timidity -- and your self-interest about getting your W back -- from all your considerations. Sit down w/ your sister and talk to her. Then sit down w/ your W and talk to her. Sit down w/ your BIL and talk to him. Tell your W & BIL it must stop.
Hi Tate,
Your car wreck analogy is spot on!
Sadly, there is no easy or quick fix to this mess. You can't forbid or force your wife or BIL to do or stop anything.
The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Tate - I struggled a lot with this myself. Part of me wanted to scream my pain and betrayal from the highest rooftops and receive the support and comfort of those around me who sympathized with me. The other part (which won) wanted to protect my WW from the immediate consequences of her actions. Those immediate consequences would be (presumably) hurt to her relationship with our adult children and hurt to her reputation in the community.
Additionally I felt that she would see this as a betrayal of HER by me and it would reduce the chance of any reconciliation.
Fast forward 3 months and a bit. The A is still ongoing - not sure how actively though, WW has moved out and is (I believe) on her own trying to get her act together. The A is still (largely) secret although I have told my brothers and their wives with strict instructions to keep it to themselves. I only told them because I needed more support than what was available from random people on the internet (ie this forum). WW knows that I have told them and that they have said that they would welcome her back into our extended family. I "believe" that WW has respect for my actions and is grateful for me keeping her secrets. In a recent text where she said she was going to tell S22 "everything" I responded that it was her story to tell, not mine and it was up to her how much if anything she told. I honestly have no idea who she has told but know that it's mainly been close friends only. To the best of my knowledge S22 and D24 still don't know.
I hope that helps. Adult children are a very different kettle of fish than yours I'm sure.
I don't mean to offend anyone,but to put this a bit bluntly, I'm looking for experience advice from someone who has some insight into a scenario like this and is NOT separated or filing for divorce. This is a divorce busting site, yet it seems the majority of people on this board are not succeeding at stopping their divorces.
Tate - I had this exact same rant a while ago. I felt that I was here looking for help and that all I would get was the same platitudes from people who were failing in their own efforts.
Getting hit by a 2X4 hurts and yes, many of us swinging them are amateurs. That's the nature of a peer support group - most of us are in the same mud pit as you trying to find the way out. If we knew the way out we wouldn't be here.
If you are looking for some good SOLID help then contacting Christy to get some proper coaching is a good idea. I know that I ended up taking a break from the forum for a while because my head was ringing too much and my wallet too thin for coaching.
The forum DOES have a number of redeeming features though. The biggest one for me is knowing that I'M NOT ALONE. There are others in this mud pit too who are fighting the same fight. Most of us mean well but remember too that we are also dealing with anger and frustration so our 2X4 swinging might not be aimed at what you think is the right target.
This might not help but if you want to waste a bunch of time you can go back to my threads from the end of May when I was on a major rant looking for help and only getting 2X4s
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2690827&page=5Since then, and burning out a very well meaning friend with my drama, I've come back and am working on "paying it forward" to the community here and reading how others are coping while the slow grind towards an uncertain future continues.
The forum DOES have a number of redeeming features though. The biggest one for me is knowing that I'M NOT ALONE. There are others in this mud pit too who are fighting the same fight. Most of us mean well but remember too that we are also dealing with anger and frustration so our 2X4 swinging might not be aimed at what you think is the right target.
Andrew,
You're absolutely right. The anger and frustration surfaces very quickly when I see someone else making the same mistakes (or what I consider to be mistakes) that I made. I feel like I took far too long to wake up from the LBS fog so when I see that happening to someone else, I tend to threaten to run out an buy power tools (I actually did go out and buy a grinder/cutoff tool yesterday).
There are also differing philosophies regarding the best approach to take with a WW. I tend to be a hard-@ss these days; I'd reached a point where I felt like I was a doormat and that's not who I am, so I now have zero tolerance for WW bullsh*t. But, I also understand that approach doesn't work for everyone.
Its a hard place to be in...you don't want to be a doormat either and keep the WW having her cake...but then some WW's consider you to be an jerk if you are being a hard-@ss....personally I need to be somewhere in the middle I have figured out...
I guess the big question is aside from telling or not telling my sister, is there anything else I should be doing in dealing with my wife?
I
have talked to you aside from telling your sister.
Here's the problem, Tate. You don't want to do anything that requires some action from you that might grate against your WW. You don't want to even do boundaries. You want to be all kisses & hugs and charm her back into having desire for you. Now, I don't know if being a former WW is close enough to the scenario you were referring.....but I didn't get divorced and I'm still with my H nine years later. So, take it for whatever you deem my advice is worth.
The wayward wife is not your typical W who is having a spat or giving you the silent treatment. You are facing a different breed of woman. This is not the girl you M 17 years ago. You will find nobody whose heart has been turned off any more than a WW's heart for her H. The more he tries to be sweet, charming, loving, perfect H material dripping with every word he says, and his hands worked down to a nub from catering to her.........will only make her feel more turned off. It will not change her heart from how she feels about you
now.
The cold hard facts is that a woman can truly desire only one man at a time. Now think about what I've said. She can sleep with several, but there is only
one she truly will desire in her heart. In many cases, when the wife refuses to have sex with her H, it's b/c she has no desire for him as her H. If another man is occupying your W's heart, she won't feel loving feelings for you. I am saying that as long as she has contact with your BIL, nothing is going to work to draw her back to you.
You and your WW have a brother/sister relationship, not a H/W relationship. From what I have gathered, men who are attracted to a woman, don't want her thinking of him as her brother. Although friendships have been known to develop into a more intimate relationship.......men know if she feels like you are her brother, it ain't going anywhere! No matter what he does, she's going to love him like a brother.
IMHO, the only reason your WW is enduring this interaction (you seem to think is great) with you is b/c you are too scared to cross her. She is the one in charge and that seems to be okay with you.
As for my advice as to what you can do to deal with her, you can read my WW links in Cadet's homework assignment, and I won't have to do a lot of repeating here. It probably won't be your preferred approach, but it's honest. I have stuck around this DB board for a long time, and I have seen countless WW cases. I don't remember a one that succeeded where the H was the nice guy that you want to portray.
Absolutely not. It's like a car wreck...you may be in the right, but you still want to avoid wrecks at all costs.
I don't mean to offend anyone,but to put this a bit bluntly, I'm looking for experience advice from someone who has some insight into a scenario like this and is NOT separated or filing for divorce. This is a divorce busting site, yet it seems the majority of people on this board are not succeeding at stopping their divorces.
I get the "desire to avoid wrecks at all costs", but to continue the car analogy I think sometimes a collision is unavoidable... like you're going downhill with no brakes... sometimes the decision is not to crash or not crash, but to crash in as controlled a way as possible before things build up too much speed. People and relationships can heal.
Some situations are just messed up, and you're not going to find a perfect way out of it without taking/causing some damage no matter what you do. Your best bet is to control what you
can control (your own actions, and how you respond to other people's actions) and use that to help mitigate the harm.
---
Regarding the advice thing, I'm no expert, and I'm still working the process like everyone else, but for what it's worth I am in a pretty positive place at the moment so wanted to weigh in to express support for the DB principles and the advice you've been getting.
My wife was in an EA she was trying to explore further - she had asked for an open relationship and kept passively aggressively threatening separation/divorce. She was very deceptive and disrespectful. It was a rollercoaster applying the DB principles, but a few weeks ago she sent a NC email we wrote together, and we've been spending a ton of time together since then and I often feel like now she's the one pursuing me.
I can't guarantee that she won't cheat again. I can't guarantee that I will be able to completely overcome what she did. But I feel optimistic about my future, regardless of whether it ends up being (hopefully) with her or without her.
As my situation has improved I've definitely been spending less time on the boards, and less time updating my own thread and I think that's definitely a recurring theme and a big part of the reason the forums can seem overweighted with people "not succeeding at stopping their divorces".
I guess the big question is aside from telling or not telling my sister, is there anything else I should be doing in dealing with my wife? .... My wife and I get along great in daily interactions, but she swears she will never want to work on our relationship, get close to me, or love me again. When asked what her plans are if things continue the way they are, she simply responds with an I don't know.
I don't have any silver bullet advice for you, but standard DB principles and Sandi's rules continue to apply here.
E.G. Don't believe anything she says; don't have R talks; don't pursue; get your balls back. (This is an ongoing process for us "nice" guys.)
I've seen several people ask you about what your 180s are, and what your GAL activities are but I haven't seen much of a response. What are you doing to be the best Tate you can be? If you can't find time for you why should your wife?
Also you mentioned a "disorder" helping cause your marital problems - what's the status there? Is this still ongoing? What are you doing to manage that?
I will point out that I strongly agree that the WW has no chance of having feelings re-emerge for the LBS while they are still disrespecting them. Right now it seems to me like you're so afraid of making your wife mad, so afraid of things getting worse, that it's getting in the way of you applying the DB principles properly, and preventing you from effectively setting/enforcing boundaries and standing up for yourself. My WW reacted poorly when I stood up for myself and got in the way of her cake eating, but they were necessary steps along the way to where I am now. My WW would have been much happier at the time if I had stayed a doormat, but I had different goals.
sandi2 -- what you wrote, I need to hear every morning for the rest of my life.
You and your WW have a brother/sister relationship, not a H/W relationship.
Does every WW situation have this problem (of W seeing H as brother-sister)? Or only some?
Do WAS situations also have this problem (W seeing H as brother-sister)? Or is this less common in WAS situations?
Curious.
Will review your to-do items in Cadet's homework post.
So, today is an example of a situation I was trying to avoid. My wife wanted to take my suburban to haul kids bikes to the park. She didn't tell me this or ask for the keys which I have with me. She called me at work looking for the keys and was mad that I did not leave them with her.
Now, I really don't want her driving the suburban if she doesn't have to...see she's had 3 car accidents and 2 speeding tickets since dropping the D bomb in February. She drove the suburban for 2 months and managed to leave the the doors open on it an entire day while she was at work, and she managed to crash it into a parked truck. A week later, she backed her Suv into a van. The short is that she has been careless and I don't want the suburban wrecked again. I made the mistake of mentioning this to her.
As she began chewing me out on the phone, starting with the words, "this is why I hate you...", my boss walked up to review a presentation. I asked if there was anything else,but she continued ranting...I was forced to hang up on her.
The text I received after basically stated that my attitude is what has destroyed our marriage, that this is why things will never be the way I want them between us, and that "I made my own bed."
My response via text was. That I did not mean to insult her, that I had to meet with my boss, and that I'm a good person and I'm sorry she cannot see that.
Thoughts?
My response via text was. That I did not mean to insult her, that I had to meet with my boss, and that I'm a good person and I'm sorry she cannot see that.
Thoughts?
Tate,
Do you have a freaking spine?
I think I've got to head over to Lowe's for some more power tools.
I know I need to STFU, but d@mn...
So, today is an example of a situation I was trying to avoid. <snip>
Thoughts?
Tate - I'm going to be nicer than doodler - especially since doodler "claims" that the cookies he made me were mailed but I never saw them and I'm not sure that I trust him 100% that they were ever made.
Let's look at this practically for a moment if we can. I'll use bullet points because they're cool and look like a presentation.
- Your W doesn't want to be married to you
- Your W is treating you like a personal servant
- You are trying to be the "best person you can be" and W doesn't care
- You are using 180s directly aimed at her to rebuild your relationship.
First point here - I've been while not in your exact shoes in a very similar pair with a W who said she didn't want to be married to me while I tried like mad to "fix" everything she didn't like. And yes - I'm not a success story (yet - I hope).
If I could be so bold, take her at her word that she doesn't want to be married to you. If you start with that assumption then she has to start putting on her big girl panties and deal with things herself. The whole "there for the kids" is in large part a load of hooey. She's there because it's easier than not being there and because she has the staff well trained. You yourself need to think about what your kids need and what you need and start shaping a life without your W because you need to accept the fact that she could just walk out that door at any moment.
Buried in some of sandi2's excellent posts is a long discussion about the need for a man to retrieve his balls from his wife's purse. It's a tough thing to do and you'll feel like you are pushing your W even farther away. But first you need to find where you will take a stand and stand your ground. It will be difficult and it sounds like your W will use anger and abuse to get her own way and try to grind you down. I was fortunate that I never had to deal with that.
One key point of the 180s that MWD talks about repeatedly is that if they don't work do something different. The books also talk about the importance of building yourself up, making yourself stronger. Here on the forums it is taken that you need to become a "man that only a fool would leave" - but I personally think of it as becoming the "man in the mirror" that Michael Jackson sang about. You are no good to anyone else until you are first good for yourself.
So - time to set some boundaries and ground rules. Suggestions (and more bullet points):
- No phone calls at work unless there is imminent danger to one of the kids
- You will have activities with the kids on your own without W and not requiring her approval
- W is not to abduct (feel free to use that word) the kids and take them out of town without 24 hours notice and your approval.
- W is not to use your vehicles for any purpose without your approval
- You will grant her privacy and space to conduct her texting and not ask any questions
- You will each treat the other with respect and (just thought of this) abide by a list of phrases that you will not use on each other such as "I hate you". Penalty being a contribution to a fun day for the other parent to have with the kids.
- There will be no texting or messaging by either of you during "family time" which includes times that you are the sole parent.
and so on. Since a number of these necessarily are about the kids and she could reasonably argue that that why she's "there" you can honestly say that you are there and you trust yourself but you can't trust that she will be if the winds change.
Keep the list short, keep it achievable and make sure that both of you have boundaries.
You don't have a W any more, you have by her own admission a room-mate and room-mates respect each other's space, privacy and feelings.
Just my 2X4 for now.
Good luck - we're pulling for you and please remember that in some fashion or other we've pretty much all been where you are trying to make things work and raging against the failure of what "should" work.
180s are a tough call for me. I think I'm a reasonable person, but by all accounts my wife thinks I'm a jersey that criticizes her and doesn't respect her.
So, I've been doing 180s based on how she perceives me. For example, she complains about me spending too much time outside on weekends working on "unnecessary" projects. So, I've purposely stopped all projects. This gets me inside for more time with the kids, but it obviously doesn't get things done. When she wanted to borrow the suburban, I pointed out that she has a bike rack in the garage for her car that needs assemblying.
I'm doing both 180s in how I act as well as showing her how much she takes me for granted...and complains about me taking time to do things for the household.
The GAL is also difficult...a big complaint if my wife is that I did not do enough with the family. So I've been trying to spend as much time together as possible. Early in this process, her response was that she felt smothered...yep, she complained about getting what she asked for. So, is GAL doing things on my own in the evenings...wouldn't this reinforce her complaints?
On the boundaries aspect, I told her that her continuing to have the PA guy as a Facebook friend and continuing to text my BIL were hurting me. Per advice from the book Love Must be Tough, I told her that if she continued, then I would be forced to let my sister know what she was doing. This was my way of not involving my sister but stopping the EA.
Instead of complying, this is when my wife accused me of blackmailing her, said she would not stop, and that if I told my sister, she would divorce me instantly.
What does being friends with the PA guy on FB have to do with telling your sister?
That said, you set a boundary. Then she crossed it. Now what?
Another consideration in this whole mess is why do I actually want to continue with her anyway? I remember how things used to be, but she has not been that person in a very long time. I'm hoping that if she decided to work on our relationship, that she would move closer to the person she once was.
An example of this is her sleep patterns. For years, we come home from a family trip, and the first thing she does is gets on Facebook to post pictures...until 2 am. She would rather spend her evenings showing the world what fun she had than spend an evening relaxing with her family, or me. She gets 5 hours of sleep max...for no reason. In the past, she never had enough sleep, then she did grad school, and she has continued the pattern ever since.
To continue the above...My wife has said in the past that she would be perfectly happy living alone the rest of her life. I believe her.
All of this is based on friendships she has forged over the last 6 years or so at my expense. Of course, the irony is that exposing her affairs would cause her to lose most of these relationships as they are with my side of the family...and others that would not welcome her anymore.
This is why I'm being very careful...maybe too much so...as to not make decisions on revenge or out of anger.
Tate - I would suggest that the next 180 you do - which will perhaps be the hardest yet - is that you act as if you've written her off. Be a good Dad to your kids and essentially ignore her as if she's not there. Whatever you do, don't check to see if she is noticing and "when" she complains etc just shrug your shoulders, pretend you are a teenager and say "whatever". This would also be one of the first steps towards detaching.
AndrewP, I think that's where I'm headed. I've started doing that with the projects...wife asked if I was going to mow the lawn. I said I didn't have time since we were out of town all weekend. I offered that the mower was gassed up if she wanted to mow it while I was at work (she's a teacher off for the summer).
While I was out of the country, I gave her the roofer contact to have our house roofed from the hail storms we had a couple months back. She didn't get very far on it.
Small things like that. I honestly don't have the inclination to bust my a## on projects for her if she's going to continue this way. She's taken me for granted way too long.
Tate - I'm going to be nicer than doodler - especially since doodler "claims" that the cookies he made me were mailed but I never saw them and I'm not sure that I trust him 100% that they were ever made.
AndrewP,
You're such a good guy that, very honestly, I'd make you a big batch of peanut butter cookies and send them to you if I knew how to get them to you. Thanks for following-up my mini-rant with very good post. You the man!
Life has a way of forcing change...
About an hour ago, my boss at work let me know that my position will be terminated in 60 days. My company has been failing for a couple years now, and over half the company has been let go in the last year.
Of course, I'll be looking for a new job. In town, there are limited opportunities. Part of me is saying that I should just get my favorite job in any city in the world and leave my wife to decide to bring the kids and follow me or stay where she is. Then we would be done with these games.
Please start a new thread
How to start a thread
I will use what Job wrote
First Click on Newcomers then:
Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.
Plus How to link your threads
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588047#Post2588047