Link to my initial thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2686947&page=1After 3 months of misery and heartache I have written a letter to my wife and read it out loud to her today at lunch.
Among other things this is the paragraph that broke my heart the most to write.
"This is the most difficult decision I have had to make in my lifetime. I have to protect myself and my emotional bank, which is almost completely empty. I do not want a divorce, we are just trading one set of problems for another. But for me it seems at this time it is the best solution for resolution and closure. You are the love of my life and I have thought very carefully about this, I will say it again I do not want this."
I am sad and relieved all at the same time. Still detaching as spending time with her to even talk about this drew me closer to her. I am not sure when her head will be exposed from the fog, perhaps never but this is just something I had to do. I cannot live with a woman that continues to lie about her activities. Says she is doing what she can to save the M but shows the actions of the complete opposite.
When I discovered her first A (that happened 8 to 10 years ago) she continued an emotional A (perhaps more) and I still believe she is with someone at work also. I found a text the day after we where supposed to have a "talk" mocking our discussion about the M. This is what sticks in my craw the most, it isn't about the physical stuff, although that is hard to think about also, it is that she shared intimate details about our M struggles to the OM.
It is a hard day to DB, hard day to detach, and on the low end of a roller coaster ride. This will be some hard times ahead for both of us.
I am worried the affects this will have on my S13. He is having a hard time right now but not showing it really well.
Hope all out there are having a better day then me.
To be clear...did you tell her you had seen a lawyer and would be serving her with divorce paperwork?
I'm not sure why you would restate repeatedly you didn't want this. I'm not suggesting you use this as a trick to get her to wake up, but if there was any chance this would get a reaction you kind of diminish the impact when you create the impression that you'd cancel the D in a heartbeat if she wanted you. BUT- I do understand wanting it on the record one time that you don't want a divorce but will do what you need to do. If you felt you had to do this then fine, and now it is done so it's done.
But I would recommend no more heartfelt letters, no more R talks, no more assurances or talk of wanting to be M, no more, no more, no more. She knows you don't want D, she just doesn't care. Anymore than she cared that you didn't want her to cheat on you for 8 years.
It's time to build a new life and leave this behind.
To be clear...Yes I told her that I contacted a lawyer. And I also told her that I will open an account that my check will go into, she will need to share the bills with me before I pay for half of them.
She said she doesn't need a lawyer but understands that I do, unless she will get screwed. I don't want to screw her over, I just want half of what we built in the last 21 years. I unfortunately will also get half of the debt.
Well I said it a couple of times.
She was sad but knew it was coming I think.
Okay no more R talks, just doing what I need to do now.
I know it is time Zuess. You have been a big help in showing me how to get my Ball$ back, slowly but surely. I am doing that. The other big thing you have helped me realize is that life is full of uncertainties. Its a big scary world out there, but I can do this. Thanks man.
Man coffee, I can feel your pain. Yesterday I read your SITCH and I felt bad because my SITCH was caused by me in more ways than you can shake a stick at. Your W almost seems like she is enjoying toying with you. I will agree with what others have said, you can't threaten her with the big D, you actually have to do it. I don't see any other way to shake her out of it.
She justifies her A's because I chewed tobacco and smoked e-cigs without her knowing.
The other big thing you have helped me realize is that life is full of uncertainties. Its a big scary world out there, but I can do this.
Thanks C. Yeah, in the end we just keep putting one foot in front of the other.
I started a new gig about 20 months ago. First year was great. This year, despite having gotten better at my job, things aren't going so well. This is the first time I've actually contemplated the idea that I may not succeed. While there would be consequences, I can handle them. Yes, it would be painful to take a step back in my career from where I expected to be. Yes, it could be difficult to make less money. But in the end I will evaluate the situation, make good decisions, and do my best to execute. If I continue to do that things will work out. This much I know.
She justifies her A's because...
I don't need to hear the rest. 100% of affairs are rationalized. 0% are justified.
I am sorry to hear about your job Zeus, stick it out another 20 months. I find it takes me about 4 years to really know if a job is good for me or not, and to actually get good at it. Is it other people that you work with that you don't like? Things change if that is the case. My job changed dramatically over this last year also. I have been there 10 years. Most of the people I really enjoyed working with left...my counterpart retired. My sitch made it hard to concentrate and although they know some stuff is going on personally they give the new kid more work....
Thanks Coffee.
I agree with your idea and timelines. My last role I was in for 6 years, and before that 10 years. I've had 1 or 2 years where I've had a few false starts, but primarily I'm a loyal employee and very slow to make changes. In my last role I saw a whole lot of people thinking the grass was greener, entitled, weak, unable to navigate through change. There was a perpetual group of people that thought everything was going downhill and they had to leave, yet year after year we hired new people and overall people got paid more, promoted, and good things happened. My personal library is filled with Zig Ziglar, John Spencer (who moved my cheese, peaks and valleys, etc), and many other books on success, leadership, biographies, and so on. And my own personal and professional track record has landed me in the top percent of a percent. So overall I feel very equipped to navigate through a lot of garbage.
The situation is that I'm in a sales role. I have goals to hit to get paid. Last year (in year one) I exceeded those targets, and I did it without really knowing what I was doing. Scrambling around, throwing deals together. This year it is not going that way. I am 10 days out from July starting and I feel like I'm an underdog to hit my goals. My income is about 70% of what it was last year. The winter months are slow. And I get paid based on a rolling 13 month performance. Bottom line, it will be 3-6 months of good production before I get my income where I want it to be. And if I can't get that good production between July-October, I'm darn sure not going to get it between November-February. This means that it would be a year out from making decent money, if I wasn't terminated first, and assuming that I can do something next season I can't do this season.
My plan is to fire up the competitive juices and do everything in my power between now and October to make it rain. I am operating with the assumption that it is all on me, the opportunities are there, and I'm simply not capitalizing the way I need to. I am checking my work ethic, my attitude, and my daily production.
In the end it is difficult though. BECAUSE I have such a strong track record I question the road I'm on when I struggle. The last time I struggled it was with a position that simply didn't allow the opportunity to run, and when I went elsewhere I was #1 within 12 months and was promoted 3 times over the next 4 years. So I'd be a fool not to question the possibility that this role isn't a fit for me, and that I might do better elsewhere.
But, back to your point...3 of the consistent top guys have all been in their roles for 3-5 years. I truly believe that if I can grind it out this year and next that I can succeed as well. I simply cannot picture myself failing unless the opportunity just isn't out there, and with some of the vets making it I still think it's possible.
The sales part is just hard when you start to question whether you can do it or not. It's hard enough when you are full of confidence, when you're down it's a drain because every set back has you second guessing yourself. That is why I'm going with a 4 month personal commitment to kill myself and not second guess my path for at least the remainder of this season.
Hope this makes some sense. Thanks for letting me talk about it on your thread. In the end I'll be ok. I am fortunate to have a skill set that will allow me to provide for my family in some way, shape or form. Losing hurts, but it's not a life or death situation. And of course, there's always the chance that I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat, will be at the top all of 2017, and will laugh about the struggles I faced on my way to the top.
Take care coffee!
Dude, sometimes I just want to talk about other stuff. Nice to take a break and think about what my friends on here have going on. My professional life is a big deal right now. Good to reflect on that a bit and regain some focus. Not a hijack at all. Love it! God bless my friend. Talk soon.
Hi Coffee, sorry you're going through this I too am 3 months in and it's been the longest 3 months of my life.
I'm interested to read your thread as I am also planning on having this conversation with my W in a few days. As you say, I love me wife with all of my heart and D is not what I want in the slightest but I need to have some closure and try to take some steps forward.
Did you get what you was looking for from the conversation? I imagine it's a sense of taking some control back.
All LBS's contemplate firing the D word in to try and get a reaction; hey, I even tried it myself! IT DOESN'T WORK. Unless you really want to D (depending on your bar as to what would be a 'point of no return') it will have no effect on your WAS, as they really don't care right now.
Ask yourself - do you really want to D? If you do, then go for it. I understand you want the pain to go away, and you want some closure, but unless you really want to walk away, don't start it off.
Also, writing letters and making grand announcements don't work either. The only thing which ever affected my W's behaviour was when I said, quite calmly, that if she took the children away (at this point she wanted to move 230 miles away), I would never forgive her. Now, something clicked in her mind and she knew I was being serious, and she didn't move away. OK, we're not back together and things are still a bit muddled, but she saw I meant business, didn't try to cover it in nice words or grand statements, I just put down facts.
Hope that helps guys.
Yes K I did, I feel like I have taken control, of my life back. Now I have to follow through, it was inevitable, I can't stay in this open marriage, an I am tired of being crapped on. I am still in the house with her but will start looking for a place as soon as she takes the steps to get my name on the mortgage.
I am tired of being crapped on.
coffee,
Yep, when the LBS fog clears you begin to get a sense of how much of a beating you've taken and then the anger begins to settle-in.
All LBS's contemplate firing the D word in to try and get a reaction; hey, I even tried it myself! IT DOESN'T WORK. Unless you really want to D (depending on your bar as to what would be a 'point of no return') it will have no effect on your WAS, as they really don't care right now.
Ask yourself - do you really want to D? If you do, then go for it. I understand you want the pain to go away, and you want some closure, but unless you really want to walk away, don't start it off.
Also, writing letters and making grand announcements don't work either. The only thing which ever affected my W's behaviour was when I said, quite calmly, that if she took the children away (at this point she wanted to move 230 miles away), I would never forgive her. Now, something clicked in her mind and she knew I was being serious, and she didn't move away. OK, we're not back together and things are still a bit muddled, but she saw I meant business, didn't try to cover it in nice words or grand statements, I just put down facts.
Hope that helps guys.
The letters are just words, I realize. Now for action. I was in trouble today for not waking her up before I left for work, her phone went dead I guess and made her and S13 who was sleeping with her late. HE HE, how is that my responsibility. She is mad at me, but guess what, I will let it roll off my shoulders. She gave me no indication last night of her plans this morning, I just figured she was sleeping in.
I don't want it but have to proceed with the D, she is a serial cheater that won't come clean, not willing to be transparent, and is probably "using" more than just the pot that she has used since I met her. There is no end in sight and I have to protect myself.
Yes, you have to protect yourself and, in your case, you have set the bar as being cheated on serially. So, if you feel you can never have her back with you, and you feel that being out of the M is the best plan for you, then you have come to the right conclusion.
No, you're not responsible for her being late up. She's a big girl and I'm sure she can wake herself up. Hey, who's gonna do it when you're not there? Time for her to wear her big girl pants and take responsibility.
You have read all the homework you were given, right? Have another read of the stuff cadet and sandi2 gave you before you finally pull the D cord.
Remember to stay strong. It's a battle and at the minute you're losing. That doesn't mean in the end you'll lose the war.
Huddy, I have already pulled the D cord, I have proclaimed that is what I need out of this. Not sure that I should stop now. Like I said I never wanted any of this. I feel that I can never trust her again, I cant believe her at all. I found a letter from Rob, and texts from Lee. She said that Lee goes by Rob and the Rob guy I caught her with was just a coworker..total coincidence. She also said that $195 charge on the CC to a concert ticket web site was not for a concert but was for some sporting tickets for fathers day. I never received these tickets or proof of purchase. She continues to lie, even after I told her I wanted a D.
I don't want a D but cant live with the lies any more, I don't think she will quit, she has been doing it off and on for a LONG TIME.
No worries mate. You have decided that you cannot stomach this anymore and to protect yourself you are going for a D. Can't blame you at all. It's always worth some 2x4's just to make sure, but you seem to me you have rationalised this through.
So, now you have to look after the most important people in your life, you and your S. Your W has made her choices, so, it's time for her to grow up a bit. Doormat no more!
Huddy,
Yes no more doormat. Just ran into her, she acted like she did yesterday before I told her. Sort of affectionate, putting her arm around me and hands across my waste. Temp checking, I gave no return this time. I hugged her goodbye yesterday, that was enough. She is still wearing her ring...so am I. Time for that to stop I guess. I feel like a widower.
Well,
She is acting super nice, she made me dinner, has sent lots of texts, communication is on the upswing, perhaps the D word comes as a relief to her, I can't read what is on her mind.
Today I asked her to call the cell phone company to make me an account admin, for some reason I was not (yeah right for some reason...she wears the pants, no longer). I am taking my balls back, becoming the man I once was and more. Becoming a man that only a fool would let go.
Today I open a new account and change my direct deposit, to go into that.
I had to take out some of my retirement to fund the L. For some reason I am reluctant to put down the remaining 3500 for the retainer, holding off to see if the fog starts to clear. It is hard to tell, just going to wait a week. But Monday I plan to ask her about her financials so that I can complete the first wave of paperwork required for D.
I hope all is well.
coffee_
That was a fast turn-about! Keep LiM's thread in mind. He's said multiple times that he didn't wait long enough before calling off the D.
Hi Coffee,
You are so smart to recognize that she is temperature checking you. She could be testing you to see if you really meant what you said about divorcing her.
She may realize that having you around as her safety net isn't an option for long. She may want to lure you back into that role.
Move forward with your plans to protect yourself. Be the best Coffee and Dad that only a fool would leave. Be cautious with how you proceed.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I wont fall for the bait. I was super mad yesterday and broke sandi's rule about no fighting. She led me to believe that I was cooking dinner so I planned on it, but then she told me her and her older friends that we have known since we got M'd where going to hang out at her mothers, she invited me but it was a reaction not an action. I am having trouble realizing the differences, maybe she was reaching out who knows, anyways I told her I already had plans.
I do not want to be her safety net, I want to be her H, she should realize that. I called Cristy, not sure I can afford it but will try to figure something out. I do not want a D but have to proceed "as if". She asked if I was reaching for something when I told her to make me an account admin on my phone, and wondered why I was getting my new Bank account. I have a savings account on my own, and she doesn't touch that and wondered why I didn't just use that, I told her because it has her name on it.
She texted 45 minutes ago saying HiYa whatcha doing? Of course I resonded too quickly and haven't heard back from her. Sick of being treated like this. She has the S13 with her and the 2YO that we take care of so I am sure she wasn't trying to figure out where I was so she could go do bad stuff...like she sometimes does. I know Sunday morning is her time to hang with the OM, I think his W works or something. Didn't care, went for a mountain bike ride with my S13 and my buddy. It was a beautiful morning to be out on the trails. Now I am just poking around the house fixing things, keeping my hands busy. I did fix a couple things on her list but it is stuff that needs to be done, and stuff I just don't mind doing. I hate when things break and usually just fix them. We have never had to pay a repair man, and rarely a mechanic in the 21 years of our M. This is how I supported the house. She says I don't put her needs before my own, but I keep the motor running around here, I thought that is what I was supposed to do.
When she said she needed a hobby, I knew she liked to garden, so I suggested a greenhouse. I drew up plans for the greenhouse for her birthday and gave them to her. I didn't end up building that greenhouse but purchased one and built if for her last fall. I remnded her that I do put her needs before mine if needed. She is just needing something else, but won't tell me what. She has also said that all she does is help people (its true) and never has time to be selfish. I told her that her A is the most selfish thing she could have done. I think it boils down to her not being able to tell me what her needs are, and me not being able to recognize them, or read her mind...this M is so broken, I won't give up until it is over, which I am scared to death that it probably will be over. Especially when I am headed down that road. I don't think she will stop it, and I won't stop it because I am stubborn. I remember that day when she told me she was in this forever. I am a rock, I believe what people tell me, especially when it is my best friend of 21 years. I am still trying to get the dagger out of my back. I am detached fairly well, especially now that the fog has cleared from my head. I really do understand how crappy she has treated me, even though she treated me pretty good...hard to understand, but getting easier to accept that it is what it is.
I have a quote that I saw on Anthony Bordain.
Our heads are round so that our thoughts can change direction.
-Allen Ginsberg
Coffee, I just wrote this on another thread. I think it is a good thing to consider.
One thing I'm a big believer in is writing out what you'd need to see happen before you'd be willing to reconnect emotionally (or physically!) with WAS.
For example, for me I won't ever reconnect with WAS unless at a minimum:
-She tells me she made a terrible mistake
-She ends all contact with OM and all other men
-She tells me she would do anything possible to see if the M can be saved
-She is willing to go to IC, and agree to a complete transparency plan
-She demonstrates to me that this isn't a feeling she's having because things are tough or that she's lonely, but that this is based on beliefs and the realization that steering her life by feelings has been destructive to the family
IF all of those things happened, I would be at least willing to have a conversation with her.
You need to STFU. There is nothing you can do more destructive than having relationship talks. Talking about her affair is absolutely pointless.
Remember, WAW doesn't care about your words, she is watching your actions.
Maybe I can translate for you. When you say "Your affair is selfish"...she sees "Wow, looks like coffee is still attached to me and unable to let go of the marriage, I can continue doing what I'm doing, he's not strong enough to leave me".
See? Because if you were truly done you wouldn't be standing there trading words with a liar.
If I were you I'd go to text/email only, limit exchanges to a sentence or two as needed and as pertinent to the kids, avoid R talks or emotional exchanges, and keep taking action to create more distance. I'd also flesh out exactly the conditions upon which I'd be willing to do more than that as I've said above. And yes, this means if she doesn't stop the affair your M is done and you go the rest of your life without another emotional exchange.
Because it is pointless. I understand the desire for her to see your point of view. How much is lost, how much you hurt, how much you care, what a great guy you are, etc, etc. But she won't. You can get validation from us, but stop looking for it from her.
It's bad enough she can destroy your family. She doesn't deserve to string you along by luring you into emotionally charged conversations.
OK, that is all for this rant. I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at her, but I don't want to let you stand by and roll around in the mud with her either.
Thanks for another kick in the pants Zeus, ha! I love that you told me to stfu, got it.
Doing that stfu thing, she was leaving to go clean her moms house before the mil got back from here road trip. W stayed out there all week. But on her way out she said she was going to do some work out there also. I said see ya. She immediately came over and hugged me goodbye, she is seriously messed up.. She spent last Sunday night out there by herself also. She said she would be an hour 2 hours later she is still gone. S13 asked when she would be home. I really don't care b/c I am really starting to detach, just sad about my S and her disregard for his feelings.
And yes zuess, today she did lure me into 2 very significant emotional conversations, not about our R but about her dad and her health issues. I just validated her feelings but didn't have any big reactions or major input. She is trying to figure out how to get her Dad, which she has been a caregiver since his brain injury in October, to move back home, away from where we live. Trying to get rid of some baggage I reckon.
Zuess,
So a list of conditions that I would expect from her if she wishes to reconcile.
I would need to see extreme remorse for what she did and the pain she has caused me and very soon our S13. I need to know that she gets how serious her bad choices are and have been.
She needs to show me through her actions that she is trustworthy. No more unaccounted for time..eg spending 3 hours working from somewhere else.
I would need full access to her social network, phone, email etc...even her work email.
Random drug test, looking for the white drugs, could care less about the pot.
Only then can I start to consider trusting her again.
Question, I think I know the answer, I would show her the list if she shows some type of interest in reconciliation?
Also, working on the balance of GAL and being a good dad. I am trying to do both but don't want to neglect my S13. GAL just has to include him? I try to communicate to STBXW what I am planning etc. but I get no response, I also get no communication as to what she is doing, until maybe last minute, I stopped asking. So should I just plan my day as-if, and plan my GAL activities.
Some advice says to invite her, I am getting the sense from you Zuess that I shouldn't. Planning a 4th of July weekend, about to send an email to her regarding my plans but wondered if inviting her is appropriate.
I am also working on defining my new relationship with her as a co-parent. So trying to schedule times and dates, or at least making an attempt if she doesn't respond I guess just do what I propose, no response means she doesn't have input, just like any other aspect of life and business right?
Not sure she will show any sign of R and have no expectations but see question above, any vets have an opinion on this?
I had a DB coach and she helped tremendously. She defined the stages of reconciliation as follows: 1) Let the dust settle, get some space, let the emotions die down, and get stable. 2) Form a new relationship of friendship, one that says you respect her autonomy, you understand you are no longer a married couple, but that you can be effective co-parents. 3) Romance. 4. Reconciliation. DB coach said it takes minimum 6 months for the dust to settle, and usually 1 year minimum as friends.
My DB coach said that it was ok to casually invite her to family things at first, if it could be casual and with no expectation, and if her not going wouldn't be an issue. And if it wasn't often (pursuing).
For me though that didn't last long. Once I found out she was in an open affair, one that she refused to end to someone she insisted was the love of her life and the man she always wanted to be with...well, I wasn't interested in playing friends.
Now, I only got drawn into one fight, I haven't punished, controlled, dragged the kids in the middle, made power plays with finances, NOTHING. In two years. I've been a good boy and played nice. But I have zero interest in a relationship while she is texting her boyfriends how much of an abusive jerk I am and how I'm the root of all of her problems. Not playing.
So the advice is different depending on the situation. If she is a WAS showing regret that she has to leave the marriage because of her personal boundaries that you've violated with your behavior, then I think it can be ok to be friendly, invite her here and there, demonstrate some 180s, etc. But if she is wayward, involved with another person, spewing venom, disrespectful, etc, then I think you need to create some distance and show that you won't be disrespected, that you're not attached to her, that you are prepared to move on and not be a doormat.
The other thing is that you have to be really detached to be able to go the friends route. If you're still attached emotionally I think it's pretty darn tough.
So, all said, based on what you've been through, where she's at, what she's done...I would recommend distance distance distance distance. I don't think she's likely to turn around suddenly, and trying to be her buddy is only going to shield her from the consequences of her choices.
As for the list, I doubt you'd ever show it to her. That is mostly for you, so you hold firm if she tries to manipulate you by throwing you crumbs of the relationship you really want. My recommendation would be not to bring a list like that out unless it was in the presence of a marriage counselor that you two went to, and the marriage counselor would have to come after she showed interest in doing whatever was necessary to repair the marriage. I don't know that's going to happen, certainly not soon...what I'd recommend is that if she EVER asks anything even close to whether you'd want R, or anything like it, I'd just stall for time and say something like "Those are important decisions for our family. I'm not interested in jumping back into anything, and I certainly wouldn't want to go back to the relationship we came from. I would be open to hearing what your thoughts are on whether you think it is possible to rebuild something out of this..." Then if she really wants to talk, I'd insist on enlisting a counselor to help you through the discussion...then I'd hit her with my requirements. Hopefully by holding to that boundary you won't get manipulated.
Bottom line, whatever you have to do to detach, protect yourself with boundaries, and start moving through your grieving process is what I recommend. It's a long shot she turns around, and those chances don't go up if you're attached/pursuing/hopeful. And if she doesn't turn around you're much closer to where you want to be in a year in terms of getting through this hell.
Thank you Zuess.
I am doing well at detaching, she is good at drawing me back in but I am working on defining my own boundaries and not letting that happen. And starting to create distance. Finance distance, emotional distance (I quit texting back when she texts me) We are in the same house but I am still able to create distance, she is helpful with that because she is never around. I am getting used to being alone, I just spend time with my son, way more than I ever used to. Again I am working on the understanding and acceptance of what my new life is, and what it had really been this last 10 years. Looking in the mirror and figuring out my fault in this relationship. I will use this reflection to help me in my current relationships, future relationships, all relationships.
I can be selfish - I think we all can to a certain degree.
Zuess,
WTF, I cant keep the duct tape on my lips. She started a conversation about $$ and accused me of opening my own account before telling her, which I didn't. She wondered why I am doing this, and accused me of making this all about money. I need to learn not to trade words with her. We had an R talk, she showed some remorse and for the first time said she was sorry. She said she has said it before, the only time she has was in an email or two.
She keeps sucking me back in emotionally, I see what you are saying about detaching, and being completely detached...I think. This is letting go of the relationship that we once had, grieving the loss of that. If she turns around then we rebuild a new relationship or if she doesn't I will be that much more ahead of the game when the big D hits, am I understanding the two major reasons for the detachment correctly? It is hard, because the more I detach, the more she does, but I think I understand that also, we probably both need to detach for the same reasons.
I need to stop talking about the A's because your right, it does two things, it makes her think that I can never forgive her, so she perceives that any effort to R the M would be wasted, and it makes her feel like crap. The other mistake I made last night was I missed validating her feelings (I more than missed it, I discredited them), something that I have done constantly in the past, big mistakes I know. This is something that I really need to work on, I am selfish and when her feelings are a direct result of our M problems and I see it differently I immediately think she should feel like I do, she doesn't and I seem to miss that detail.
You can make lemonade out of lemons. Why not shoot her a quick email saying something like:
"Thank you for sharing so openly last night. I can see that you have given a lot of consideration to how this has impacted me and I appreciate how difficult it can be to own up to any of that, particularly when you've been through so much due to my shortcomings. After we talked I realized you probably didn't feel very heard, so I wanted to reflect what I took away. What I heard you say was _________ and _________. Whatever else happens we will need to be able to communicate about S13, and I hope we can do better as coparents than we did as a couple."
So last night, unprovoked she opened up a little. I shut my mouth and listened. She said some things that came from below the cloud. Not talking in absolutes, but letting me know that she is trying to figure out what makes her act like that, and seek that attention. She feels it is a trust thing but not quite sure exactly what it stems from. She also jumps back and forth from that to just plain made some shitty choices. She also admitted that when she fires back at me about my lying about my nicotine addiction it is just a defense mechanism. I didn't say much except that I do understand how my lies hurt her, and told her I know how that feels also. I did good to just listen and not trade words. She was honest about her feelings and honest that she knows that she made a mistake.
I know it is not a huge revelation, but definatly a baby step. I will continue on my course. I have to be clear about my decision to D, I do know this, I have an unconditional love for her and my family. That doesn't mean that I can sweep this under the rug, I will redefine who I am and the man I wish to be in a relationship, this I know has to happen.
Someone recently gave her a book about nicotine, and being sympathetic to the addict of nicotine. We talked about that a bit and I told her that it [censored] that I can't come to her and say man I slipped and I am smoking or chewing again. If I did it would be a huge argument and she wouldn't trust me. Well she also acclaimed that she knew how that felt. I have a hard time believing all that she said, but I could just tell there was a glimmer of truth there. I have known her a long time and can recognize when she is sincere.
I understand that she is probably realizing that since I have pulled my half of the finances from the general fund that I may not be an option at all right now.
The last thing she said was if I wanted to trade her for the MB, I was more than welcome too. I may take her up on that. I would love to sleep in the bed I bought with cash using my bonus money.
Well, I did a stupid thing last night. I suck at this DB thing sometimes. I went for a bike ride, my buddy asked me what the hell was wrong with me, something wasn't right. He asked if my W had a boyfriend and I spilled my guts, I shouldn't have done this as they are mutual friends. It makes me wonder if he didn't know more than he was letting on.
Well after we had dinner and 2 pints of beer I was driving home and saw her car at her watering hole. So I stopped in to say hi. She said what are you doing here...her to bust me or something? I said no I saw your car and wanted to say hi and buy you a drink. She busted me looking at her hand, which didn't have a ring on it. She said I don't have my wedding ring on because I was cleaning my dads house. I messed up and said, well your at a bar with your wedding ring off, how does that look. She stormed out of there without saying a word. I am so sick of this one step forward and two steps back...I cant seem to get it right. I should have just drove on by that place I guess. Feeling pretty crappy today.
coffee,
Don't worry about it; the deck is stacked against you regardless. You had every reason to stop by the bar. If she wasn't a WW she wouldn't have gotten upset about you checking for her ring.
For some strange reason that reminds me of the scene in Pulp Fiction with Christopher Walken telling the boy about his father's watch. "I had this incredibly uncomfortable hunk of metal up my..."
You can make lemonade out of lemons. Why not shoot her
Zues,
Don't you think shooting her is a wee bit extreme?
We could always do a horible bosses type arrangement...
The strength you guys show when your w is in an affair is commendable, fwiw
Tofbrks - I like the idea about a horrible bosses arrangement!
I totally feel like the deck is stacked against me, sometimes I feel like I am being compared to the OM, so while I am DBing and not meeting her needs, she says that I am not doing that, and that I haven't for a long time. She is getting those needs met elsewhere, which totally stinks, because she won't even give me the chance to do it. I hate having a WW.
Tofbrks - I like the idea about a horrible bosses arrangement!
I totally feel like the deck is stacked against me, sometimes I feel like I am being compared to the OM, so while I am DBing and not meeting her needs, she says that I am not doing that, and that I haven't for a long time. She is getting those needs met elsewhere, which totally stinks, because she won't even give me the chance to do it. I hate having a WW.
I feel your pain ... All I have is suspicions no proof ... I couldn't imagine having an actual proven affair ... And not loosing my mind or telling her to hit the f'n road.
[/quote]
I feel your pain ... All I have is suspicions no proof ... I couldn't imagine having an actual proven affair ... And not loosing my mind or telling her to hit the f'n road.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was in Limbo for the longest time. We are working out the details of splitting the finances. All so messed up, I was thinking that just over a year ago we used the same toothbrush...hard to start a real separation, and to move forward with the D. I have proof of two ongoing affairs, she refuses to talk about it and has tried to lie her way into me thinking it is only one, an EA with someone she met 2 years ago. When I nailed her for it she denied, took some time and came up with the lamest lie I have ever heard. I sometimes wonder how such an intelligent woman could be so stupid.
I feel your pain ... All I have is suspicions no proof ... I couldn't imagine having an actual proven affair ... And not loosing my mind or telling her to hit the f'n road.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was in Limbo for the longest time. We are working out the details of splitting the finances. All so messed up, I was thinking that just over a year ago we used the same toothbrush...hard to start a real separation, and to move forward with the D. I have proof of two ongoing affairs, she refuses to talk about it and has tried to lie her way into me thinking it is only one, an EA with someone she met 2 years ago. When I nailed her for it she denied, took some time and came up with the lamest lie I have ever heard. I sometimes wonder how such an intelligent woman could be so stupid.
[/quote]
Mine was so stupid that her exit plan after announcing she wanted to separate was for me to leave... With no Recon on table , why the heck would I give up so much? That I would continue to pay for everything just as if I was there... That's f'n stupid!
She wanted cake with extra frosting and someone to feed it to her...
Hey all,
just checking in. Took my boy and put on about 400 miles in the mountains in the truck and on the 4 wheeler. It was so nice just having some man time, some serious GAL for sure. just got back, I have some work to get done today so I can play again tomorrow.
Just heard from the STBXW, she is in a major bad mood, i dont want to be around her. But alas I have to go to her mothers birthday party tonight.
She is being a total bXXXh today. I asked her if she needed help and she said that probably but she can do it all alone, and that she is getting used to it. Pulling back and GAL is not working to bring her closer. But I understand how this is supposed to work, it is for me and I should leave her out there to dry if she doesn't want the M. This relationship stuff is hard, harder than I made it out to be the last 21 years.
Can there be too much GAL? we are in house separated and she is mad because she feels like I am not pulling my weight. I keep my activities tidy, make sure that the chores that I have been responsible for are done. I think she is just feeling sorry for herself today because S13 and I had a great couple days out and about. She is just making sure I feel like crap because she does? What games is she playing today.
She was mad as S13 for giving the dogs a bath and using clean towels, I told her he had good intentions. Poor kid, he hasn't seen her in 2 days and she was grumpy to him. I just don't get that woman.
Is the list of chores you are responsible for a fair split?
Sometimes when H and I have days like that, it's because the list in one person's head is way longer than the other person's list. If you think it's a 10-item list and you are doing 5 items, but she thinks it's a 20-item list . . . all of a sudden your split doesn't seem so fair (assuming you are intending to go halfsies).
Or, sometimes I think we have to do a project, and that throws the balance out of whack, especially if I forget to explain the reason for the project to H or he is not in the mood to tackle a project that weekend.
And I've been known to be guilty of assuming a teen should know not to use clean/good towels to do X.
All of which is to say this could be normal frustrated woman stuff and not WAW stuff. But that doesn't make it more pleasant to live through.
Well, all good points Rose888.
I will look at the list for sure and try to see it from her perspective. Her list is long, considering all of her extra curricular activities, she is on two boards, watches a mother in need's kiddo two nights a week and cares for her brain damaged father. On top of that the household chores. I may be resentful for the time away from home volunteer work.
We have never had to pay a contractor to do anything, I do all the maintenence on the house, cars, mowers, toys etc. I also cook twice a week or more, the kitchen is always clean when I am done.
I will ask her what she thinks.
I asked if I could help her any way today and her responce:
"I amd not sure you want to help. Feel obligated maybe but want to. I dont know.
It doesn't feel like you want to do much but have a good time but have a good time doing what you like.
Which I get"
I told her that there are may things I would rather be doing. I dont feel obligated but want to help (because I do, I love my MIL) I also invited her this weekend, she declined. But I told her I didn't invite her out of obligation but because I thought she could use some peaceful time in the mountains.
She responded and said, I am just blah. don't mean to take it out on you.
She popped of on S13 before saying another word, then just left the house leaving him there. I was gone at work.
It could be that it is just normal frustrated woman stuff, which under "normal" circumstances I could adjust, but we are so broken that nothing I say or do helps the situation, so I personally would attribute it to WAW stuff. Just my 2 cents.
I had a great 4th of July weekend with my boy. We took the weekend to take the 4 wheeler to the hills and just hang out. One day we spent with friends riding with them. We stayed at another friends cabin that he let us use for free. It was amazing to take that time for us. I was home for the 4th and worked a bit. Then a buddy of mine and I drove to Idaho and did a 30 mile bike ride. This GAL stuff comes pretty natural now. Now the ramifications. Upon return I was accused of partying for 4 days and she did nothing but take care of the home-front. She was gone for 8 days the week prior to watch her mothers house while out of town. Granted she had S13 with her for 6 of those. I would have rather he be with me. I did however that time see him at lunch and run him around as needed. I will not use my kid as a pawn. Not sure how this GAL thing is supposed to fix my situation. Her Dad takes priority right now. He was kicked out of his apartment for smoking in it, so while I was gone she helped him find a new place, and move him. Her life is so hectic right now. I am ready to be done with the drama and move on. Getting ready to hit the go button on the email I have drafted. It explains that I will be moving out August 1st. And that we need to discuss what my contribution to the household will be. I will be broke for a while until the house sells or she refinances and puts the mortgage in her name. I am ready to take my ring off too, not sure how to approach that, besides just take it off. She was a total B yesterday and today. She has never in 21 years acted like this, so funky but it is what it is.
It's sad but many of the WAW exhibit the same behaviors and traits (as well as WAH)
Denial in many of any affair ...then they cast the guilt back onto the other spouse by pointing out how bad things were and they had zero to do with any of the marital issues. As Aerosmith song goes..."same old song and dance my friend"
And to top it off, many also blame the other for not carrying the load in the house if they are in the bad situation you are of being in the same house for the separation. I have been there for all of the above for the past 6 months.
Hang in there. Keep Gal'ing and doing what you need to in order to power through this.
Just an update for you all. Been a while since my last post.
I told her three days ago that I was moving out on August 1st and that I cannot afford to pay rent and half of the mortgage. She agreed to that. I told her I was misreble living under the same roof and that I needed a "Home". The next morning she asked me if I was more comfortable when we where living in the same house but at seperate times. I said no that was worse.
She sent a text the next day also saying that there was no hurry on her end for a target date to move out so take my time if needed.
I talked to my L yesterday and started the final paperwork to be served to her. I told her that and wondered when she would be around to receive them. She is busy so it is hard to pin her down for a time to do that. She asked if she could just go down and sign. I checked with teh L and she said that would be fine and would save me $50 I am cool with that. She will have to go the the L office and sign. This thing is coming to an end I guess. When I told her that she would be served she said well that is your choice. I asked her when she asked for me to be patient with her and she said May, I said I think I have been patient enough.
I am pretty well detached, it will be a hard separation because we where married as kids so everything we own and owe it is together. I think this will be a good thing for our relationship as parents and friends someday, as sad as it is. I cannot go on any longer this way in limbo. I hope the OM is good to her...
Coffee,
I hope you're up for a reality check cause here it comes. Three months is a sneeze, it'll take years if you want to save your M. Throw away the calendar, live in the moment and do everything you can to become a more loving human being. Love being defined in terms of being more accepting, appreciating, allowing, forgiving and affectionate, forgiving too.
If you want to save your marriage you have to take the focus off your W and work on the man in the mirror. What are YOU responsible for, what can YOU do to heal and become a more loving spouse. Filing for D is not going to save your M. If you really want to save it, then every move you make should be with that end goal in mind.
You and your W will never get BACK together. But you can forge a new relationship based on intimacy. Intimacy in terms of being able to accept each other for exactly who each of you are, without conditions.
By fast-tracking your D you're missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime. Try to view this crisis as a calling for you to become the fully human male that you were born to be. Work on your stuff, and give your W the space she needs to work on her stuff. You will not believe the miracles that wait for you when you just let go.
My W dropped the bomb on me in 2000, we separated in 2001, reconciled in 2005. It took several years beyond 2005 for us to forge the awesome R we have now. We grew apart, then together, and I could not have imagined our M could possibly be as good as it is now. I lived through hell my friend but I'd do it again in a heart beat. My family stayed together, I blossomed into a man, and my W into a woman.
I was a regular here on DB for a good four years or so back in the day. You've got a real opportunity to grow here brother but you can't rush the healing process. The sooner YOU heal, grow and mature, learning the message this crisis has brought you, the sooner you two can move forward together.
One day at a time!
COG
I will totally disagree with you sir. I do understand where you are coming from but my tolerence for pain must be less than yours. I am unwilling to wait 5 years for a woman who cheated on my multiple times over the course of 10 years or more.
I took my ring off and told her that I was moving out. August 1st is my target date. I have two places lined up, neither are ideal or as nice as what we owned.
There has been little communication between us which is fine. What communication we have had has been unproductive to say the least. It doesn't seem to go back and forth. Either I email and never hear back from her or she emails, I respond and then I never hear back from her.
She continues to have her married boyfriend..but my detachment level is off the charts.
I went camping and rafting with a bunch of people from work this weekend, I would also say that my GAL is much improved, I really do care less what she does.
The 3 months of misery are over. I am ready to move on from the turmoil and drama. I do think over time we should be able to be good co-parents, however now all the sudden she has differing opinions than me. So we shall see where this goes.
Hope all is well with everyone.
I agree with both of you.
COG's advice is spot on...EXCEPT...if I'm remembering right, coffee, your WW was the one that had serial affairs for 8 years. Is this right?
I believe there is a big difference between a woman that walks away that hasn't cheated, one that walks away that has an EA/PA going on, and one that has been in ongoing affairs the majority of the marriage with different partners.
Each of us has to make our own decisions on where we draw the line. While I might have been willing to accept a short term EA/PA immediately after BD, I am not sure I would be willing to accept what this WAS did over the time she did it. And, if there was ANY chance I would, it would've been on her to move mountains to show me why I should. Shoot, in theory she still could, I'm not saying coffee isn't committed to D, but if she aborted all affairs immediately, wrote an apology letter and a non-contact letter, promised to go to counseling and do anything possible to save the M, and in return she didn't ask for any blind recommitments but rather the opportunity to just leave the D as a separation for a year as she proved to him how deeply she cared and show him that she would walk the walk to prove she could be the W she promised to be...IF she did all that maybe he could reconsider...Maybe.
But that hasn't happened, and I agree if it's anything less than that he needs to keep moving forward on his own. I've been around these boards a while now and doubt she's turning around, and if she did it would only be if she was deeply scared of losing him. After him being complacent for 8 years and her avoiding consequences for her choices for 8 years I think there's a much bigger risk in coffee being exposed to more of the same than there is in him missing out on a wonderful relationship with this person.
It just stinks all the way around. Sorry you got a dud coffee. Keep moving forward. Still heal, own your $hit, and do what you can to be a better person. Avoid rebounds or anything destructive like punishing behavior. Be a good co-parent. All of that. But frankly I'm glad you have the strength to get some distance. Maybe it's fueled by hurt and anger, but that doesn't mean those emotions are negative, they may be what you need to do what you need to do to protect yourself.
COG's advise is what I'd give to anyone that was in a situation less extreme than this. Even still coffee, it's good to mull over and see from all angles. It's good to know why you're doing what you're doing.
Just a quick check in. I have been out of the house since August 1, and had very minimal contact. We are co-parenting and communicating pretty good regaurdign that. To reply to Zuess, there is no way that she will try to move those mountains. I have realized now that she has been needing something else besides just me for 8 years now (maybe more). It is what it is, I love her, I miss her, but realistaclly I cannot see myself going back to that woman, not after the abuse that she administered. Looking back some of the things that she did where pure evil. You would never know she was capable just by glancing at her and her life, she is very good at her facade. I have fully accepted my situation, the hurt returns periodically but I am a happy man to be free from her grips, manipulation, lies, and chaos. My life is getting more simple by the minute. D is final January 25th, but that is just a date for the paperwork. I really feel free from her emotional grips. Somedays I wish terrible things to happen to her but realize she is a person, and my sons mother. I am considering some counseling again to start work on forgiveness, I am not sure I am ready for that but really just want to start to understand how to forgive someone who has done this terrible thing. I know it would be a lot easier if she was involved in the healing process, but I don't have that luxury. Someday I will find the right person to give my heart to again, I want to make sure that I am not resentful and able to love, trust and be a good partner. I wish everyone a great Monday.
Thanks for the update coffee. I hope to hear from you at least periodically for the next 24 months if not longer.
Forgiveness isn't easy. And it's easier to forgive once you're no longer in pain. While you're still hurting, the pain triggers anger towards the one that put you in that pain. Once the pain ends, it's pretty easy to let go of blame for pain you no longer feel.
So in my mind, the key to forgiveness is healing yourself so you are no longer in pain. And that comes from all of the DB principles such as GAL, detaching, etc.
I'm curious about a few things. Now that you've accepted, at least logically, that your marriage is over...what are you doing for YOU? Are there any 180s you're working on? What are your goals? Any GAL things you're doing? Truly wondering how you're doing for yourself separate from her.
There is no right answer or easy button, but if you use the loss to motivate you to rebuild it can help move on. I don't pretend it won't leave scars or that the loss can be swept away. But you can at least take pride in your response to the loss, and some comfort in knowing you did what you can. Some days that comfort means a lot.
Take care and keep us posted.
GAL is going well!
I am a hunter, and got a once in a lifetime moose tag, so I have spent a TON of time in the mountains some alone, some with s13 and some with brother and friends.
I am getting adjusted to living alone/co parenting and taking pride in keeping a clean house, clean laundary and keeping well groomed. I am working on keeping a good budget. In two weeks I am going to AZ for a long weekend and just chilling. I am making new friends, some female but treading lightly on that front as I know that it can just prolong the healing. But I have to tell you this guy feels he needs to get some!
The devastation took a toll on my work, so I am really getting back into the swing and focusing on my career again. It is a big adjustment as I was able to work all the time when it was a two parent in the house system.
I am working at taking the high road, not rolling in the mud with that women, she tries to bait me, I think she is just mad that she can no longer control me. NC is really helping with that, it also helps detach which I really feel like I am on the path of total detachment. There are days that I just give her way too much though and I am working at just putting it aside and dedicating just a minor amount of time to those thoughts. I like the high road, the view is much better up there! I am motivated to move on for sure. There are several dreams that I have had that being with her has held me back from doing. As soon as the D is final I can actually start planning to act on some of those dreams. I have always wanted a place to remodel or build, not sure which one I will start with but it is sure fun to dream. Whenever I start thinking I wish this never happened and wish my life was back to what it was a year ago I just remind myself that that life was a lie, she has left the marriage several times over the course of 10 years or more. I was just her ice cream in her cake and ice cream life. Well I have gotten my ba11s back and it feels wonderful!
Thanks for the response and promoting these thoughts of 180 and GAL, which came naturally but does take some work.
I haven't heard from you in a wile Zuess. Just checking in. I lean on this board more than I thought I did.