What should I be Doing (piecing 6)

Previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2683646&page=1

So quick update:
4/8/16 - W gave me ILYBNILWY speech
4/15/16 - WW started EA which led to kissing (3 times), EA lasted 3 weeks before I found texts and she ended it.
W is a volunteer firefighter and OM also there. My original boundary was NC, even if it meant to quit, which W really didn't want to do.

W started giving me frequent updates of whereabouts, and doing everything I asked to be transparent. I finally believed she wasn't communicating with OM, or interested in doing so, so I backed off my NC boundary and changed it to no communication.

I believed in my gut that she was out of fog and committed to MR, so I am being more talkative with her, and things are going well so far. We are doing things as a family, both sleeping in MBR (lots of intamicy now), our friendship is building and I rarely snoop or verify now, feeling confident in where we are and where we are going.

Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs

I'm a little late to this thread and didn't read the first thread.

couple questions ---

1. does you wife still work with OM at the fire academy?
2. when does she finish at the academy
3.. once she finishes the academy will they or could they be placed at the same station?

As long as they are still seeing each other at work --- even if they aren't speaking --- the affair continues.

4. Were you there when the fire chief spoke to your wife about the exposure?

5. I wouldn't trust anything your wife told you. She may appear to be trying and working on things but such close proximity to the OM and, for the most part, the impropriety remaining a secret it's very easy for things to rekindle between them.

6. I'll let you answer first, but bottom line --- it is completely disrespectful and hurtful to you for your wayward wife to continue to trounce off to work, study groups, bbq's and meetings in the presence of OM. It's a slow torture that will eventually destroy your marriage.

7. Additionally, if you were truly "piecing" according to Michele Weiner Davis you no longer 180/GAL your wife by ignoring her, playing games, being distant especially when marital neglect was part of the circumstances that made your marriage susceptible to infidelity in the first place. Consider the term "180" -- it means doing the opposite of what you were doing (the last several years of your marriage). Becoming super husband would be your actual 180 --- not Sandi's non-professional 180 list (which generally applies to betrayed wives). A real confident man pursues what he wants. If you want your wife and marriage ---> fight for it.

8. That's not saying there is nothing on the list that applies. You don't want to be running around buying her gifts and saying too many "I love you's". There IS a delicate balance between being that dumped guy begging his wife/girlfriend for another chance and chasing her around for "serious conversations" versus being the confident guy that pursues his wife with a swagger and passion. What's nice is this is something you have experience with. You attracted her to you once before and considering your history together it should be easy to do again. You are her soulmate. You know her better than anyone. She never compared your kisses to OM's because OM barely knew her. Most former wayward wives report being super titillated by the secretive dangerous risky side of adulterous sexual relations but the actual act, when they think about it objectively later -- was awkward and uncomfortable. OM's are relative strangers. They might FEEL likes it's awesome - but feelings lie.

9. The point is ---> up your game and make her regret ever doubting you turn her on more than anyone else ever could.

10. Another thought ---> Don't try to make sex during recovery super passionate and deep. Your wife isn't there emotionally yet. It's still early and she's conflicted. To do what she did meant developing a hatred, blame and disgust for you. Her feelings of love, passion, empathy for you take time so focus more on wild fun sex that distracts and counters her conflicted feelings versus being all sappy. She wants to avoid feeling guilty right now and if you take it too seriously she'll sense it and it's a turn off.

Not sure why I didn't see your post at the end of my previous post, so I'll answer now, it will be a good update. I do this on my iPad so it's complicated to break up quotes, so I numbered everything.

1. My W is in the academy, OM is a firefighter at her station, which is also where the academy is. He does not hang out with her class, OM is only around her occasionally when they both report for a call (which are relatively short period a of time and there are always others around). The A was occurring on class nights where my W would stay at the station after class and he was there, or when she would go to the station to study and hang out, but she comes straight home now and she doesn't hang out at station anymore when not in class or calls.

2. Academy will end in 7 weeks.

3. she is scheduled to be stationed at the same station that he is. He is supposed to be moving and changing stations soon, but if he doesn't, I will discuss her moving to another station after the academy is over.

4. No, I wasn't there when her captain spoke to her, but I do know he called her that day (I saw phone record). I know he saw the texts because he is the only one that could delete them, it was his group me group chat.

5. I don't trust everything she tells/told me, and although possible, very very unlikely they could be continuing seeing each other privately, although texting would still be possible, it would be very very limited. I'm a smart person, I know what to look for, I've watched through binoculars while she's at the station, I've checked her phone multiple times, I even watched them both come out of the station at 2 am after a call without even a glance at each other (I was sleeping when she left, so no way she new I was watching). I have found Zero evidence of any communication. I'm in a good place, I don't currently have worries that would kill M.

6. See answer 1, they are not n any social settings together, she doesn't even go out on Saturday nights with others from station anymore.

7. I do not ignore her, most of my GAL activities are when she has academy, though some are on nights when she is off, she is usually studying anyways. I'm 100% present with her when we are together, but I also feel me getting a life benefits her and us, and I always update her with what I'm doing and respond when she texts or asks questions. And I always participate with her when she asks to do something. I am just careful not to smother.

8. No gifts yet, although will be getting her flowers this week and leave 1 or 2 notes on mirror or car this week letting her know I'm thinking of her and love her. I am being her soulmate right now and she is very receptive. For Nights out together, I am planning fun and new things to do together and we are both enjoying and connecting. She loves our new R.

9. I'm pulling out all the stops, even more so than when originally courting.

10. Not trying to make sex passionate, going with what we got, just commented on the lack of emotional intamicy, but not dwelling on it. I'm having a good time

. And I know she's getting where she needs to be slowly, and she's having a good time for now too.

It's so good to see positive things here, Coconut. Thank you for contuing to post.

All the best!

Bumping to see if Georgia Bulldogs is around... I'd like to get thoughts on if I'm living blind or if it seems like my W A is over.

Really glad to read continuous positive posts from you. It's hard, you've just got to try not to push too much at once. Things seem to be going really well!!

Thanks for your support! I'm feeling pretty good. I'll be posting an update on my thread soon, but I'm definitely on an upward trajectory. Father's Day gave me a couple setbacks as you might imagine, but I pushed through.

So, I didn't even think to post this earlier, but I think it's note worthy.

Father's Day was a little rough , my Son (my step son) was at his biological fathers for the day, it was the first time that's happened in 8 years, he's always been with me at least at night. Also, my W has always bought me a Father's Day card, but not this year (I will say I don't care about cards, but timing says a lot. She did post some nice things on FB though). So anyway, I was ok with that, cause a calendar doesn't dictate what day I celebrate my son and my R, so I planned on spending the day with W. Not gonna go into whole schedule, but between her studying for academy and getting a project for work completed, I was basically by myself on Father's Day, other than a 2 hr dinner with her father. I went for a bike ride and did some other little things, but most of the day I felt like I was waiting for her to finish.

I was watching the NBA finals, and with about 10 mins left (what a great game), I fell asleep during a commercial. So wife wakes me up when she was going to bed, so I got up and when to bed. She's had a little bit of back pain going on for two days, so she laid on her back in bed, which means no snuggling, so I just laid next to her thinking:
- Mother's Day (4 days after A found out) I ignored her and did my own thing
- I didn't take son to get her a card or gift for mothers day
-Father's Day she didn't demand his biological father bring him home at night
- she didn't get me a card
- she spent all day on work or school
Etc.

So I got up out of bed, she asked where I was going and I said I wanna see who won game 7.. She asked if everything ok, and I (probably wrongly) said I'm just a little frustrated cause I spent Father's Day basically alone, you where doing your thing and son wasn't here. I went to go watch game, then with 2 minutes left in game she came out and said I really want you to come to bed (still didn't get to finish game, grrrr), so I went and we snuggled this time.

I think she kinda new what she was doing leaving me alone on Father's Day, but she sincerely seemed to be upset that I was upset about it, and I do not think she intentionally tried to hurt me.

Anyway, counseling rescheduled for tomorrow, overall everything going well. No R talks in like a week other than short one on Saturday I think, I haven't really snooped in over a week (but I'm gonna ask her to show me group me acct in next few days), but if somethings going on id be shocked, because she is acting absolutely in love.

My biggest concerns at this point are that she may not have to worked hard enough to get me back, I don't know if she fully recognizes the severity of the A, and I think she still sees my actions (detached from family) as being as bad as the A... But I do think she feels a lot of guilt about having the A.

My posts are still subject to moderator approval so they sometimes show up late.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

Bumping to see if Georgia Bulldogs is around... I'd like to get thoughts on if I'm living blind or if it seems like my W A is over.

The cornerstone or foundation of every solid recovery that I've seen requires "no contact for life".

Waywardism is a fantasy. It's not a real relationship. Even if they aren't talking, she can still glance at him (and him her) and wonder what they are thinking. Wonder if they are still thinking about each other. They often feel compelled to check in with each other out of supposed friendly concern that the other is doing OK. If the chief has ordered them to knock it off then it's like a "do not step on the grass" sign where our sinful nature compels our desire to break the rules so they give a quick verbal whisper to meet each other in the janitorial closet for a talk.

They hold on to the illusion that in another life and another time maybe they could have been together or found each other before all these other bothersome inter-personal relationships and responsibilities got in the way of their "meant for each other -- we're soul mates crap".

Your wife may be completely on board, legitimately hate the guy and never speak the guy again but it's a risk she shouldn't be taking or asking you to be OK with. The stress that puts on you every day is enormous. Part of the consequences of her behavior and still wishing to keep you in her life should be "no contact for life - no matter what it takes". If that means quitting the academy --- then so be it. She certainly can't be assigned to the same unit or whatever...but still seeing him at union meetings or city wide firefighter events is too much contact. All it takes is a little eye contact, a knowing glance and a note or whisper to meet and the affair is game on again. I'd suggest moving to another locale if she wants to keep at this dream because it "no contact for life" is just that important.

I helped one couple recover where the OM produced and recorded a demo tape with the WW and she had to give up signing completely. No church choir. No singing in the shower when betrayed husband was home. That was 10 years or so ago so I doubt it's that extreme anymore but your wife is demonstrating an insincerity and lack of empathy every time she walks out that door to go where OM is or may be, leaving you behind speculating and worrying about your life and future.

Sure you could/can risk it and let her finish what she started and not be a quitter but if you don't need the money and it's all the same she should look for another job. Maybe one without so many men around. Firehouses have a reputation.

Coconut,

I wish I was in your shoes but I have to say from what I have read from others is this stage is probably more difficult. Just take things nice and slow. I feel that her coming to ask you to come to bed is a positive. She is pursuing you now.

I would suggest you give her small positive things in return but also be cautious.

I am praying that your M turns out to be successful in the end.

JimKao, thank you for posting. I wouldn't say this stage is more difficult, I can't imagine anything being more difficult than the first couple of weeks after bomb drop, but it definitely has its challenges.

I think the biggest challenge is realizing that your old W and R are gone forever, and knowing that your working on a new R with someone you already know can and will rip your heart out and stomp on it. My W may honestly not be willing to ever do that again, but it doesn't change the fact that I know she can and already did it. And even knowing that, still putting yourself out there.

Even though I'm happy in the right here right now, I'm still not 100% that we will last, I haven't had a single thought of us beyond 1 or 2 years from now. But I'm willing to keep working on us for now, while I continue working on me at the same time, and see where I am. I don't think I will take that look for at least 6 months though, because I know I at least want to give us a shot.

Georgia, her quitting the academy would probably be a deal breaker for our marriage. so at this point I need to decide to be ok with it or walk away, I'm not asking her to quit again, but that's not to say I am 100% ok with it either. But I can tell you that I will have strong boundaries about how much time I'm ok with her spending there socializing, or if I'll be ok with any socializing there.. I'll have to figure that out once she's out of the academy, and see how integrated I am into the station (there are a lot of family activities they do there, so I may become friends with many of them).

Today was our first MC, it went well, I really like the counselor. Today was pretty much just getting history, and I told W I'd like to give the history pertaining to my actions and she give the history of her part, and then we could both give additional info on the other we felt was pertinent. Worked out well that way and we each got to see how the other perceived their part. I told the counselor I'd like to tackle communication skills first and she agreed that would be a good place to start.

I've really been handling triggers extremely well, I haven't had too many, but when I do I've been able to process them and decide if it is something I need to discuss or ask. I haven't discussed or asked about any for a few days. I'm starting to feel like my old strong self again.

And Swing...

I'm torn, and I'm not sure if it's my emotions and I'm over reacting, or if I have a right to be pissed even though I'm still convinced that there is no A going on..

The main thing is my W downloaded snap chat, I found out because after she went to the concert about two weeks ago, she sent me one of the silly pictures that snapchat lets you take. I asked her about it, told her I didn't like it because snapchat is the perfect A app, deleting all communication after a few seconds. She said our friend was using it at the concert to take pictures of them and she wanted the picture options it gets. Tonight I look at her snapchat and she has added firefighter people and other friends to her snapchat friends list. So she added people even though She also had reemphasized one other time after our talk that she only downloaded it for picture taking.

Also, my W started sending me texts on her own giving her whereabouts, when she got out of school, heading somewhere, etc. now she has stopped doing it on her own. She does tell me where she's going, just doesn't update after she leaves unless I inquire. I don't know if it's because she sees me being more confident and not asking about her goings on, but even if that's the case, I feel like she should have talked to me about it before stopping the updates.

I'm confident nothing is going on, there is no way she could be faking her loving attitude towards me (even giving me light kiss hello when she comes home and I'm sleeping) and she is home almost all of the time when nothing going on. I guess my concern is that even though I am confident nothing is going on, I don't feel like she is A proofing our M and I don't like that. Am I expecting too much and overreacting because I want to control everything? Well, that's why I'm here, to ask.

All I know is that I'm back to asking myself if I really want to go through this, if I want to stay with her or start over... And up again, because I woke up at midnight and can't fall back asleep.

Sorry to hear coconut. You're going to drive yourself insane, or into another car from lack of sleep.

I don't think that you can affair proof a R. You can only trust with all of you or nothing at all really. That is a choice though. So close your eyes, accept the things that you cannot change and either trust or don't.

You cannot sit in limbo.

Coconut I completely understand the emotions you are going through. It's very tough because you were hurt so bad. You don't want this to happen again and you want to try and control the environment so that you can't get hurt like that.
I've been there done that.
DDJ is right. There is no way to fully affair proof a marriage.
However I do think you can try and protect your marriage.
To me there is a difference between protecting and controlling.
Controlling would be telling your W she can not have snapchat on her phone
Protecting is processing the emotions and telling her why you would not like her to have snapchat on her phone.
After that the choice is hers and you can only trust her or not

Have y'all had a discussion on how long she was going to give access, etc
I know that's one of the things that happens in my R. Because we didn't really put a "time frame" on it, I just did it whenever I wanted and it became an addiction and she felt like she had zero privacy

Very nicely said cbtdad - you can only protect your marriage with love. And if you respect, care about and love your W, then you will show it in your actions, regardless of any hurt that you are feeling. Love really conquers all...

If she wants out - let her go. You'll be better for it. If she wants in, then you fight, because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain!

So well said, cbtdad.

This might throw some people for a loop, but I believe good people can make bad mistakes. I am not going to minimize what your W did, Coconut, but she had a 3 week flirtation with a coworker with some kissing. Big mistake, which has some awful trust consequences for you. There are many cheating cheating spouses who aren't such good people, had some pretty serious deceiving affairs and feel no remorse. (like my ex). Then there are some spouses who make a stupid mistake and really regret it and want to save their M. Never even wanted a divorce, never wanted to leave, just messed up big time.

I really think you W may fall in that category. Good person who made a bad mistake. Again, I am not minimizing this.

My point is, say you say you just can't handle this anymore more with her. Are you going to trust the next woman anymore? Are you going to want to affair proof that relationship too? Because I can guarantee any new woman will say "peace out, he says I can't have snap chat? who the F is he?" or " he wants a text everywhere I go?"

I really think this kind of controlling might leak over to the next R.

You said it yourself, you have no doubt she is in it for the long run, so keep reminding yourself of that.

I agree with cbtdad and Ginger.

The level of control? Oversight? you expect is not typical in a relationship, and if you haven't discussed how long you expect to have this level of control, I can see how she would feel comfortable with how things are going between you and return to a more normal level of sharing.

Disclaimer: I'm not dealing with an A, and neither H or I can unlock each other's phones.

I agree with you all, and thank you for posting to confirm what I felt was the right way to go. By nature I am not someone who needs to control in R, I've been cheated on before, ended that R and moved on without trying to control the next. My biggest feeling of a need for control now is because of the freshness of the A, and the fact that she is still at the station with OM, but I've seen nothing that indicates they have any communication or are ever alone.

I will continue moving forward, I will continue lessening my verifying, I will continue being the best me... The one thing I will do in the next week or two is make sure that she very clearly understands my boundary of communication with OM and that is a deal breaker for me.

There is a fine line between boundaries and control. Generally in these early infidelity recovery situations it is the [former] wayward spouse that is the control freak. They want their marriage and life to continue with as few consequences as possible.

When you lock your doors at night are you controlling your wife and family or are you keeping outsiders out?

When you put up a privacy fence are you trying to control what your wife can look at or are you trying to close in your back yard from outsiders peering in and neighbor's dogs dedicating in your yard?

You mentioned the making her quit that job with OM was a likely deal breaker and I agree. It should be a deal breaker for you. If she wants to remain in a relationship with you she must go No Contact otherwise it just leads to this continuing crap. If you guys moved away and OM was complete history and she was at some new job this whole snapchat thing, though annoying, might not be that big a deal. It's hurtful because you know it's the perfect secretive app and she's still around OM and lots of other people that know about her affair. If you don't think the other guys at the firehouse don't think it's open season on your wife (she did it with X, so obviously it's a possibility to expect her to put out for others) then you're nuts.

I really wish you well. I'm not saying this isn't working out or can't work out but your wife is vulnerable right now to OM and all the attention and admiration she's getting with all these men at the firehouse. Recently wayward women think they are hot young cool chicks. You should be putting your foot down a bit about the snapchat. By "foot down" I don't mean give her an ultimatum but rather express that it's hurtful and you have no intention of controlling her but, perhaps, if rebuilding her marriage is a goal of hers doing things that continue to hurt you probably isn't a good idea as if may ultimately lead to you just leaving her or finding someone else yourself.

Saying "no snapchat" might be more on the controlling side but saying "snap chat is hurtful and I'd like it if you removed it from your phone for us".

It could be part of a broader discussion about social media too. Recovering couples need to focus on their relationship and avoid outside intervening and potentially interfering relationships. Stay off Facebook and twitter. Don't go to a bunch of parties and double dates or even relatives houses. Spend as much time alone with your spouse as you can working this out between the two of you and becoming each others favorite persons to spend time with again.

She won't care about snapchat after that.

Also - all these "boundaries" are reciprocal. It's not "control" if you are doing it too.

Very wise words Georgia. For any relationship.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

This might throw some people for a loop, but I believe good people can make bad mistakes. I am not going to minimize what your W did, Coconut, but she had a 3 week flirtation with a coworker with some kissing. Big mistake, which has some awful trust consequences for you. There are many cheating cheating spouses who aren't such good people, had some pretty serious deceiving affairs and feel no remorse. (like my ex). Then there are some spouses who make a stupid mistake and really regret it and want to save their M. Never even wanted a divorce, never wanted to leave, just messed up big time.

I really think you W may fall in that category. Good person who made a bad mistake. Again, I am not minimizing this.

Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs

There is a fine line between boundaries and control. Generally in these early infidelity recovery situations it is the [former] wayward spouse that is the control freak. They want their marriage and life to continue with as few consequences as possible.

You mentioned the making her quit that job with OM was a likely deal breaker and I agree. It should be a deal breaker for you. If she wants to remain in a relationship with you she must go No Contact otherwise it just leads to this continuing crap. If you guys moved away and OM was complete history and she was at some new job this whole snapchat thing, though annoying, might not be that big a deal. It's hurtful because you know it's the perfect secretive app and she's still around OM and lots of other people that know about her affair. If you don't think the other guys at the firehouse don't think it's open season on your wife (she did it with X, so obviously it's a possibility to expect her to put out for others) then you're nuts.

I really wish you well. I'm not saying this isn't working out or can't work out but your wife is vulnerable right now to OM and all the attention and admiration she's getting with all these men at the firehouse. Recently wayward women think they are hot young cool chicks. You should be putting your foot down a bit about the snapchat. By "foot down" I don't mean give her an ultimatum but rather express that it's hurtful and you have no intention of controlling her but, perhaps, if rebuilding her marriage is a goal of hers doing things that continue to hurt you probably isn't a good idea as if may ultimately lead to you just leaving her or finding someone else yourself.

Saying "no snapchat" might be more on the controlling side but saying "snap chat is hurtful and I'd like it if you removed it from your phone for us".

It could be part of a broader discussion about social media too. Recovering couples need to focus on their relationship and avoid outside intervening and potentially interfering relationships. Stay off Facebook and twitter. Don't go to a bunch of parties and double dates or even relatives houses. Spend as much time alone with your spouse as you can working this out between the two of you and becoming each others favorite persons to spend time with again.

She won't care about snapchat after that.

Also - all these "boundaries" are reciprocal. It's not "control" if you are doing it too.

Man I'm struggling... I've got the angel W on my left shoulder that ginger describes, and then the devil herself on my right side that Georgia BD describes. I've had less and less emotional attachment to my W since MC.. I'm so fed up with the fact that she doesn't seem to care if she ever goes NC with OM, and I really feel what GBD said about it should be a deal breaker for me, and for the time being, I definitely feel that I am strong enough to follow through on that right at this moment, I'm just not sure if that's what I truly believe is necessary because I also agree with what ginger said, she's a good person who made a bad mistake.

I am truly struggling with what I want, because her actions with me are everything I could have hoped for, she's engaged with me, initiates conversation and intimacy, texts me jokes and just hellos throughout the day, our R is really good right now. But I still struggle with her social media addiction, her ambivalence to who sees or likes pics and comments on social media, and I'm still unsure if she is truly remorseful of what happened and her comprehension of how much it hurt me and our M.

Like I said, I've been more and more detached since MC, she's noticed and has asked several times if I'm ok.. I'm not acting sad or angry, just indifferent, not my usual jolly self, I've told her that I have a lot of emotions that I'm working through, and I'm not sad or angry, just neutral. I'm done telling her what I want or need, I've told her enough that I don't think she's fully committed to, so I'm not going to keep asking, she needs to figure out what she should do. Also, I definitely feel like she wants to rug sweep, she still gets very defensive when I bring stuff up, even the MC noticed it when I asked W a question in counseling, the MC told her I asked the question very softly and W immediately got defensive.

So I continue on, I'm not gonna give up in a day, cause I know feelings change, but I have decided I am going to start clearing stuff out of the house that we don't use, sell it on Craigslist, and I'm going to start saving some money on the side in case I decide to get a place of my own..

She invited me to go to a get together with her fire class last night at one of their houses, I went, but I found myself really not wanting to go, I had fun, but not because of my wife, I had fun hanging out with her classmates... Pretty sad if you ask me, that I wanted her back so bad, and just a month later I enjoy hanging out with people I don't know more than with her.

Quote:

Also, I definitely feel like she wants to rug sweep, she still gets very defensive when I bring stuff up, even the MC noticed it when I asked W a question in counseling, the MC told her I asked the question very softly and W immediately got defensive.

This stuck out to me. Not rug sweeping an A in my sitch, but more like rug sweeping the entire marriage. If I bring anything up, I'm a monster. If I just give in to the "the whole marriage was a bad idea let's just part peacefully" thing... well that is no good either.

Following your story. Keep hanging on for the ride.

Just wanted to throw out a couple options regarding Snapchat. I agree you can't control her to remove it, but maybe if you asked if she would be willing to uninstall it for just a couple months, to give you more time to heal and you guys to continue to strengthen your R? Alternately (or if that doesn't fly), what if *you* installed Snapchat and started using it and encouraging her to Snapchat you?

I get your concerns, but if it's something you have to learn to live with, using it with her might help you see it as more of a neutral communication tool and less of a dangerous affair-facilitator.

I did download snap chat so I could figure out how it works, and she threw it in my face that I downloaded it just cause she did...

I'm done asking her to do anything, I'm just gonna see what she does. I've made my feelings clear, now it's on her.

As far as being a neutral communication tool, I asked my son, who uses it frequently why he uses it, and he said I really don't like it but it's the easiest way to send pics... Didn't make me feel very good. He had no idea why I was asking, FYI.

"Good People" can be judged by the behavior and wouldn't you agree a "good person" would change their behavior if it was hurting their spouse?

What would you do if your weren't afraid?

Your wife might get upset if you ask her to delete the snapchat app, step back from social media and|or quit that job ====> HOWEVER, your marriage can survive her being angry. Her anger is a much smaller risk to your marriage than her continuing to work with OM and continuing her stupid phone apps that are hurtful and disrespectful in light of her recent "mistake".

You're a good husband >>> if she asked you delete chitchat would it bother you?

All that being said, I'm NOT saying your wife is an awful person but these short-lived little mistakes can blow up into a new way of life and you'll never see the "good wife" you knew and loved ever again. The habits and practices in your marriage previous to her affair haven't changed ---> they've actually gotten worse.

"Piecing" isn't just about staying married and not upsetting your spouse. It's about making your marriage better or, more precisely, building a new marriage from the ground up. At some point YOUR BOUNDARY (what it's gonna take to keep you interested in repairing and, ultimately continuing in this relationship) must include that things need to be better....extraordinary even.

For me, you should ask her to delete it, it shows she is committed to you and your feelings, if she is willing to do this.

It not going to stop her contacting someone not having it, as if there is a will there is a way! But at least it shows willing!

OK, here it is.

Yes, she's a good person who made a bad mistake. She really seems ot be trying to rebuild the M. Honestly? Compared to all the other A's here, I don't think she ever wanted to leave you or build a new life, as most other cheating spouses on here wanted and have actually done. That's why I think she is a good person who f*cked up big time. That's why your marriage stands a chance. Of course, if you can't get passed it, that's your personal decision, absolutely. Any kind of an A is a dealbreaker for some.

As for snap chap being deleted, if it bothers you that much, ask her to delete it. If it will actually make you feel better, then ask. Don't ask if it's because its out of principle. You might as well have her delete everything social media. We all know this day in age, we would all be having some horrible withdrawl symptoms, it's how we stay connected. But if you ask her to delete it all, you should do the same.

As far as her job, I have to disagree with GB here. It's her job. Snap chat is s stupid app. She might be angry for the snapchat thing, and yes, a marriage can survive anger.

There is one thing a marriage cannot survive. That is resentment. It will not survive if you resent her forever for the A. Nor will it survive if she resents you for making her give up her job.

As far as sweeping it under the rug. I think it's almost a good sign. I think she actually feels enough guilt she can't discuss it. I think she is scared that speaking up it will ruin reconciliation efforts. But I certainly think you need to discuss it and understand some thing. So my suggestion to you is to agree with W that MC is the time you guys will discuss it for now, not at home, because you do need to deal with it.

This must be very hard. It's where the most work. I say keep your eye on the prize without sacrificing your boundaries. Boundaries because they are truly things you cannot have in your M. Maybe time to define those a little better

Ginger, fire fighting is not her job, she has a job that pays well, we actually work together. She is going through fire academy to be a "Volunteer" fire fighter, she's been in the academy for 3 months (A started about 1 month into it). Being a volunteer firefighter means when firemen are needed in our city, they all get paged and report to their station (her station is the same as OM). Last night she got paged and went to the station at 1:30am, guess who else would of gotten that same page.

She text me when she got there and told me who was there and OM wasn't one of the names (but would she tell me if she wanted to have A?).

Being that it's volunteer firefighting, does that change your thoughts?

Ps, she never wanted to leave me, actually before I knew about A, I told her I was leaving and she fought for me to stay, but kept having the A

I really should gather my thoughts before hitting submit.

Pps - I can forgive the A and drop resentment, I actually was happy and forgave for about two weeks before we went to MC, but I am having a hard time gaining trust. I do resent that she puts fire fighting before our M, and when she said matter of factory that she WONT quit firefighting to our MC, I resented that statement. She could of said I understand how much it hurts him, but I really don't WANT to quit, but instead she said WONT, meaning to her it's not an option.

Honestly, not too much.

If it is something she is truly passionate about, then if she quit, she may still be very resentful.

I can sit here and say "her bad", she shouldn't have cheated then. But nonetheless, if she is as passionate as she says about being a volunteer fighter, she will be resentful.

I'm just being real. If it really is a dealbreaker for you though, you need to be honest. I'm not judging that. Like I said, resentment is a marriage killer. If your resent her for keeping the job, and she resents you for making her leave the job, it's going to be a problem.

Say she quits the FD. What is the next thing she does that isn't acceptable that she needs to give up?

Before you have her do it, you need to really really sit down and have your boundaries straight because if she keeps doing things and you don't like them and want her to give them up as you go along, it will be controlling resentment.

Truth is, if she wants to have an A, she'll have an A. At the firehouse, at her fulltime job, with the gardener...

she si giving you full transparency. I can't say anything for sure. No one can say anything for sure. Right now, she doesn't seem to want an A.

Ok, you nailed it, we had a conversation, and we actually said I will resent her if she doesn't quit and she will resent me if she does. We do have a problem.

Right now, I am not nor have tried to control any other aspect of her life, but if she quits firefighting who knows if my focus would turn elsewhere. I just don't know, because I'm not in that spot. I've nvr been a controlling person, but I don't know if this experience will alter my personality.

I really need to think this through, maybe one option is to get her to do the bare minimum, only go to school and calls when she has to.. No volunteering at other functions, no truck checks, and agree to her finishing the 7 weeks of academy left, then readdress in 7 weeks. Maybe by then he will have switched to another station and I can gain some trust.

How much do these posts play a part in your triggers? Looking back, it would appear it affects you a great deal. Maybe taking a day or two away from the board would help you feel a bit more centered.

I certainly didn't mean to set off your triggers. I apologize if I did. I want your to make the decisions for yourself. And not act rash.

You guys do have a fighting chance, I certainly don't want to mess that up!

No.......no, I was not referring to anything you said, Ginger. In fact, I agree with you.

There are several different kinds of resentment.

The kind of resentment that occurs when a wife continues to volunteer (volunteer, didn't realize that and now more than ever I encourage you to say that is a non-negotiable boundary) is much more damaging and severe that any resentment Mrs. Coconut could ever feel towards her husband who required her to discontinue such destructive and hurtful volunteering.

Besides ---> who should she really be upset or resentful at? She's the one that ruined this situation with her "mistake". Quiting that volunteer position is a consequence of her choices.

Of course, you are not her keeper. She's absolutely free to keep the volunteer position if she wants. You don't need to be angry or demanding. Just insist calmly that if she wants to maintain, recover and rebuild her relationship with you, the volunteer position must, for now (maybe express a minim of 1 year) go bye-bye.

Think about this. Compare her short lived little "mistake" affair (which I'm minimizing sardonically - because I think it's much more than a "mistake") coupled with her CONTINUING, indefinitely, to volunteer with that same guy and the resulting lifetime potential resentment quotient thereof to the lifetime potential resentment quotient of having to give up a volunteer firefighting position because she made out and carried on with a co-voluneer. They just don't compare in the least. The first one is the kind that results in divorce. The latter is merely a consequences of her choices and she'll get over it. Absent a great recovery, Cocunut is never going to get over his resentment and if forced to swallow her continuing hurtful to continue volunteering with OM, their marriage won't make it.

If I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times ----> YOU MATTER.

Coconut matters. She doesn't have to quit the job or be resentful about leaving it at all. She'd just be choosing that volunteer job over Coconut and then Coconut will know it's time for him to move on to someone that is actually considerate of his feelings. This isn't a test, but it's sure telling.

Waywards are full of selfishness and entitlement. I'd fully expect her to be angry and manipulative. To try to turn this into you being controlling or a jerk or even a dream crusher. You are nothing of the sort. She ruined the volunteer endeavor herself and someday, when the two of you have pieced together again an extraordinary marriage she'll see how right you were to require it. She may threaten back - threaten to not recover and leave you if you make her do this (which is her manipulative attempt to control you - because having that volunteer position is in no way a boundary for her to remain in your marriage). You must remain strong and await her coming back around to doing what she has to do.

Coming back to it being a volunteer position - volunteering does make a difference. This isn't her career. It's not putting food on the table. She's not missing out on a job she went to college for. She's only out a couple of months of part time "academy". MAYBE she can do it again in the future especially if OM moves on or leaves town OR you guys move. Running around all hours of the night with a bunch of men. Building such comradarie with a group of men all in the process of "getting off" being pseudo-firefighters (and the likely attitude they get firefighter lifestyle with it) is just way too much for you to have to endure. You are the victim here and shouldn't be made to feel guilty for requiring her behave trustworthy.

Ginger, you are not triggering me, if anything your helping talk me down from the ledge. I relate to what your saying, the problem is my fears relate to what Georgia is saying, which very closely mirrors what Sandi said in beginning of my sitch, about W working with OM, but we are in a different place than we were back then.

Sandi, I will take some time away to think things thru, I'll see you all in a few days.

Is her doing what I ask and being responsive to my actions enough?

More and more I think about leaving, the more I think about it, the more I realize she's had no consequence for her betrayal. I wanted her back so bad when I realized I was losing her that as soon as she was willing I grabbed her and brought her back into the M. I want you to have N.c with OM I told her, I don't want to leave academy she said, ok I agreed, but minimize contact.

No one except my cousin knows what has happened from me (and she got upset I told him), but she's told 4 friends and didn't tell me until I asked if she had.

She told S we were having issues, I never said anything.

The only fall out she's had is me posting it on firefighter group chat, but then I wrote an apology letter to her captain, for posting private issues at his station.

I'm not a girly man, but I definitely haven't been a man in this situation. I wanted her back so badly I jumped at the opportunity and took the lead, big mistake, cause now I want to run.

I think I'm gonna bring it up in MC tomorrow, my position is basically going to be I'm leaving at the end of July, I'll help with mortgage as long as house goes on market, if she refuses she can figure out how to pay (she can't afford it, but doesn't want to sell).

I'll give her until then to do everything possible to convince me she wants me, if she doesn't then I'm gone. I'm not interested in postponing my suffering, she can keep her fire fighting, and see other people if she wishes, but if she wants to be with me, she needs to put in some work.

Coconut I'm not gonna say too much because I know Sandi will be along to give much better advice than I can.
But I will say that it has been a very short time for you to be making demands like that. I understand the frustration and I was totally there a long time ago.
Just don't make any long term decisions about your marriage based on your short term feelings. I think you need to just listen a lot in MC tomorrow. just my opinion

You want her to pay right now. You want her to feel an ounce of what your feel. You want her on her hands and knees begging, admitting she did something so awful and she will do whatever it takes.

That might make you feel like you got a little retribution for a short time.

There may be nothing she can do to make you want believe she is sorry and wants the M. Or some time and work and continued counseling may help you heal.

Only you know. But like cbtdad said, don't make any long term decisions on short term feelings.

I agree, after more contemplation I am going to bring up that I feel like I'm doing all the work and that I don't feel that is helping me heal at all. I will let her know that I would like for her to take the lead, that I will work on me as well as follow her lead.

I will not attach time frames or leaving. I think I threw that in to pressure her to do what I want, but if she does it because I pressured her, then that would negate what I want, her to do it on her own.

What does her doing "work" look like to you?

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

What does her doing "work" look like to you?

Good question, I had to think about this for a minute, I only looked at what has happened in the past and not what I would actually want in the future.

Just to give a quick overview of what has happened so far:

I gave up waiting for her to apologize for what she had done and how it effected me, and mentioned it in a discussion, that was when I got my first apology (prior to that she would only say things like I made a mistake, I can't believe I did it, etc.)

I suggested and set up counseling.

I initiate almost all (like 99%) physical contact (and it's not a lot), cuddling, hugs, ML, holding hands walking, back rubs, etc.

I told her I didn't like him on social media, then I had to specifically ask her to unfriend him on different forums as I realized he was on there as a friend.

I have started ALL R talks, and tell her how I'm feeling, she doesn't tell me anything unless I ask. She has never come to me and initiated talk about any feelings or anything else deep.

I always set up any "alone" fun time with us. She has only set up her own nights out with ff friends, and has occasionally invited me with them, but not a single plan with just the two of us.

there are more things, but you get the jist. So what does her putting in the work look like to me: (these are ideas, I would be open to different things as long as I felt like she did them with me/us in mind)

- Plan date nights
- Plan on spending down time without me instead of making plans with others (for awhile at least).
- Initiate R talks with me on occasion, or just let me know how she is feeling/wants/etc.
- Be open with me about contact with OM (but I am not mentioning this because I don't want her subconsciously looking out for him so she can make sure she tells me about it)
- Initiate some physical contact (I know your thinking it may not be her thing, but it always was so I have a hard time believing that changed)
- and anything else that makes me believe I and our M are her priorities

I'm not very good with this R stuff, so not sure if these are realistic or what would really be good to see. thoughts?

I think they are reasonable needs. You want her to let you know she cares for you and by actions and investment in the MR.

However, she may be following your lead because she is scared to take the lead. She may not know exactly where you are, or be worried about scaring you off. She might feel its touchy territory and will reciprocate if you lead, but might be scared to lead.

Maybe letting what you need be known is not a bad idea. Not details. Just that if she took the lead in your R every now and then it would make you feel loved and give you comfort she wants to work on the MR. something to explore in MC, perhaps.

Seems to me you are good at this R stuff. You are making a sincere effort. She might want to also, she just might scared.

well, I just received a two page email from my W... makes me wonder if she somehow found this site. I did not see this coming and now I need a little bit of time to really read it and understand what she is saying. Here's the email.

I�ve been trying to find the best way to express my feelings to you about this whole situation. I want you to know how very sorry I am and how embarrassed I am about my actions. While the past 2 years have left me feeling like I we were roommates, I never thought that I would allow myself to be emotionally, let alone physically involved with anyone else. From the moment I said �I do�, you were my forever, my person, my partner. I don�t know where we went wrong as a couple because I always thought that we had such a great relationship�a relationship that others were envious of. However, somewhere along the line our relationship went from love to friendship.

I do think that the start of our troubles happened when I found out that we couldn�t have children together. I wanted nothing more than to have a baby�.babies with you and when I found out that I couldn�t I died a little inside. I felt like a failure. I didn�t feel like a complete woman. I tried to bring up adoption with you and/or using an egg donor but I felt like you were not open to the idea or even open to talking about the idea which was devastating to me. I didn�t feel supported by you and from the comments that you�ve made recently, I feel like you were not honest with me about your true feelings on not being able to have a biological child. I felt defeated by not being able to have another child and defeated by not feeling like I could talk to you about other options. This is something that makes me sad and a little angry to this day. I�ve not been able to close that book.

After we bought our new house, I thought we were going to make a fresh start. I thought things would be great. We had a new house in a family oriented neighborhood, S could make new friends and we could really build a life for ourselves. However, you went into your depression stage and things went downhill. I feel like I knew deep down that you were depressed and to be honest I didn�t know what to do to help you. I thought that I was being supportive and trying to get you out of your rut but I realize now that I didn�t try hard enough. That I should have sat you down and told you straight that your behavior is affecting our relationship and my feelings for you. I didn�t do that and I realize now that it needed to be done. I�m sorry that I didn�t try harder. I�m sorry that I didn�t call you out on your behavior and I�m sorry for not telling you how angry I was at you for it.

Fast forward to my major screw up; I can�t say I�m sorry enough. It kills me to know how badly I hurt you and I will always regret my actions. I know that you feel like I don�t try hard enough and I want to choose the Fire Department over you but that�s not true. For the last 16 years, I have dedicated my life to raising S. I know that this is a sore subject for you and I�m sorry for that but there�s no other love that can take the place of a mother�s love. You are the love of my life and my partner but he is my son and he has to come first. Next to him, you are the most important person in my life and I don�t want to live life without you. That being said, I have found something that I�m very passionate about and something that will help me deal when my baby boy leaves me for college. I have a hard time trusting that you will be there for me and fill that void because you weren�t there for me (as I wanted you to be) after my diagnosis and you haven�t really been there for me over the last 1 � to 2 years. It�s not about choosing you over the Department. It�s about choosing me, protecting me because I feel like I have to because I don�t know if I can count on you going forward. I realize that part of our rocky relationship is due to my screw up and now we are in a bad situation because of what I�ve done but the feeling of being alone in this relationship has been with me for years and I�ve just dealt with it.

You are asking me to give up something that I love and will help me when Son leaves because of my screw up and I know that but there are no guarantees that we will work out. There is nothing stopping you from leaving me tomorrow but I will always have a safe place with the Department and people that have been very supportive to me there. I know you hate that place but they are very much a family and I feel like I belong there. It gives me a safe place and I feel like I�m doing something good, something that I am proud of and something that makes son proud of me. I feel like I am being a good role model and example for him by being part of the Department. Asking me to give it up is asking me to give up my safe place and everything that the Department stands for.

I hate that it upsets you that he is at the station. I promise you that I do everything to avoid him. I want to get though the Academy and graduate and then I have every intention of asking my Captain if there�s any way that I can transfer to another station and what that process is. I don�t want you to feel uncomfortable but I don�t want to give up being a part of this amazing opportunity either. I�m sorry that you don�t feel like I have done everything I need to do to make amends for my actions and I want to try to do better. I do come home straight from the station now unless I�m picking son up or I get food and if I deviate from going straight home, I text you to let you know. We live a minute from the house so I didn�t think it was necessary to text you when I get out because my focus is on getting home so you don�t have to worry and I get home so quickly. If it makes you feel better I will also text you as I�m leaving. I will also try to limit my social media usage while we are together so that I can focus on spending quality time with you and rebuilding our relationship. I apologize for not placing the same importance or at least understanding the importance from your perspective of deleting him from my Instagram account or FB page.

You may not see it but I am really trying. Although I know that I need to agree to certain terms, it is difficult for me to feel like I�m losing my independence. Being accountable for my every action makes me feel like I�m a child again and it�s very difficult and frustrating for me. Again, I understand that it�s because of what I�ve done but it doesn�t make it any easier to feel like a child or like I am under house arrest so I�m sorry that I haven�t lived up to your expectations of how I should be acting during this time and I will try to do better. I love you and I am truly sorry for the hurt I have caused you. I hope we can try to move forward from here.

A lot to process, feel free to take your time as you say. If your wife wants to go into it before you're ready don't hesitate to just let her know that you appreciate her sharing her feelings and you need more time to process things. I wish I had done that more before some of my bigger conversations.

Overall I see a lot positive there.

One random thought I had while reading the post:

Quote:

I want to get though the Academy and graduate and then I have every intention of asking my Captain if there�s any way that I can transfer to another station and what that process is.

I don't see why that (inquiring) would need to wait; As I recall the Captain seemed pretty understanding of the difficult situation so I wouldn't think getting such information ahead of time would be frowned upon. He doesn't seem to want unnecessary drama any more than you guys do.

Hope your day is going well Coconut!

Annnnd my WW just sent me an email titled 'My Thoughts'... something in the water?

Maybe Oprah had a special on getting over an A, and suggested writing letters.

If my W could write down how she thought, I'd think it would be exactly what yours said.

I, too, struggle with my W and OM working together. Your W echoed what mine has said verbally to me. My W has worked her ASS off to get to where she is in her profession and is finally reaping the financial rewards. For her to quit (which I believe she would) would cause a lot of financial hardship, as well as having to start at the bottom of the ladder at 50.

Odd how we are similar - I also went through a devastating depression to which therapy nor meds worked. She tried, but I pushed her away by curling up in a fetal position, only coming out to work and eat. I ignored everyone - her, the kids, my job performance suffered. And yes, she says she should've tried harder. The worse she felt, the more the OM played her.

That's not to say she had no choice. She knows she could've said no. I'm lucky in that once discovered, she immediately sought therapy for herself and both of us.

The irony was, finding out about the affair ripped me out of my depression and steered me into recovery. Our MC says the affair was likely a wake up call for both of us.

Your W's letter has helped me reconsider my stance on them working together. I do believe they are no longer communicating, she repeatedly says how much she loathes his presence. Maybe down the road HE will lose his job there, which would be my dream.

Originally Posted By: Stormchaser

Maybe down the road HE will lose his job there, which would be my dream.

"... i know a guy" ... that can make this happen.

I see how you could suspect her of finding your thread.� Seems she hit a lot of highlights of your complaints. �

Let me just say this, Coconut.� If I had not already been here on this board when I ended my A, I am not at all certain that I would have known what was expected of me (regarding reconciliation).� However, I had the LBH's telling me what my H was feeling (b/c my H wasn't talking about his feelings) and telling me what I needed to do for him.� Remember, I was not remorseful, and �I did not apologize.� I just made a decision to do the right thing and stay in my M.� My resentment and disrespect was still there in my heart. It took a long time before I could genuinely apologize to my H.� If I had not had a few people teaching me about transparency and how important it was to earning trust and healing the MR, I doubt I would have done it.� My H did not request I do it, but I learned a few new tools from the board, so I volunteered to do it.� Experientially, I learned it probably helped me just as much as it did my H.�

My point is that you have been the one here getting all this DB information.� Where do you think you'd be in your MR if you had never joined the board?� I remember when you were just going to shuck it off and act as if nothing ever happened.� Then you'd swing the other way and want to dump your W and find someone new............and even told us about the new woman you had met. Oh, and remember how your sex interest went from nothing to "wanting to seal the deal"?� That is all you could rhink about, until you finally had sex. Then, you start thinking about exposing the A/OM on the FF website. You just wouldn't let it go until you finally did it.

You started the last thread by telling us how positive everything was going, even saying that now you & W are having a lot of intimacy.� Then your mood changes and you get more angry b/c she hasn't suffered consequences...and she's not working hard enough...and you are going to tell her you are out of there in a month if she can't produce enough of whatever.....b/c you don't even know what you want her to do.� The only thing you can point at is the FF. �

Well, I can understand her frustration, and I understand her feeling as if she's a child.� I certainly understand a lot of what she must be going through emotionally.� But here's the real kicker, Coconut, and she hit it square on the head when she said she feels she has to protect/provide for herself b/c she can't count on you to be there for her in the future.� In other words, she is saying she felt she had to go on and make a future for herself, find her own happiness, fill her life with something meaningful........b/c her H wasn't there for her. �

She was vulnerable for an affair, and so was I.� It was still wrong.� We have to own our wrongs.� It sounds as if that's what she is trying to do in this letter.� She has apologized, repeatedly.� Perhaps you have not seen the response you want to see, IDK.� You are hurt and you want her to suffer, and right now, you seem to think she hasn't had any consequences.� However, some of those were bypassed b/c of you, and some b/c she was willing to stay in the MR and work to save it. �

I told you once before that I didn't think she would stop the FF, and I still don't think she will stop.� If you decide to leave b/c of it, then I think you need to prepare to divorce.� I'm just saying that she's not going to stop FF.� So, it is your choice to stay or leave the M.� Just don't do it believing she will end her FF for you. �

You have acted on your emotions and then you would have to back up when you saw you messed up. I have seen this thought of leaving her spinning around in your head, just like the exposure was doing. Please, don't do something out of your anger. I think you will regret it, of you do.

� � �

Sandi2,

I agree, I feel like her she was honest in her letter, she let me know why she doesn't want to quit the academy and was truthful in saying that she doesn't know if she can count on me. For the record, none of that has been said by her before the letter.

I appreciate that she wrote it, I appreciate that she finally shared her feelings/thoughts for me, that was a big part of my frustration, is she has been reserved in sharing with me. I am comfortable with what she said, I own my mistakes and have vowed for myself that I will live this life, I will not allow myself to sit in front of the TV drinking as life goes by. I am a better coconut than I was, and am still working on being the best coconut possible.

MC went well last night, we dove a little into the pain from her infertility, which needs to be resolved because it is a source of a lot of pain for her, and to a lesser extent me too.

And one last thing that will go a long ways towards helping me, I had mentioned joining the Fire department when W and I were having troubles before I knew about the A, and she shot that down telling me that it was her thing and I needed to find something else to do.

Well, she said that at the time she was against it because of the A, but now she thinks it would be great if I joined also, and started the next class in February of next year. That says a lot to me, and I think that will go a long ways towards me feeling better about the department, even if I end up not joining.

So for now, I'm in a good spot, but anyone following this thread that me saying that doesn't usually mean much, and the next emotional disaster is just around the corner, but I'm hoping that's not the case and I can move forward on an even keel.

C-nut, whenever you find yourself itching to react or say something to W, I would like to challenge you to give yourself 24 hours before doing or saying ANYTHING. In that time, go back and read some of the awesome advice you give other DBers. Hardest to take our own advise, but often it is the most valuable!

Someome said this is a marathon, not a sprint, and you my friend are still early on in the race. TIME. Things will change in time. Patience.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

In that time, go back and read some of the awesome advice you give other DBers. Hardest to take our own advise, but often it is the most valuable!

-Blu

Blu nailed it! I agree 100%. Your advice to me has been great, and although I haven't always followed it I know it has helped me greatly. I'm starting to lose not just the love for my WW, but respect as well. It's sad. She's so careless and odd now and I don't like it.

Your W opened up to you. THAT IS HUGE!! That is something a loving W does. You're in a great spot man. Take your time!!

"Someome said this is a marathon, not a sprint, and you my friend are still early on in the race. TIME. Things will change in time. Patience."

Thanks Blu!

This was said to me over and over in my first situation and let everyone know this all the time!

Cnut, your W wants to be with you? Do you want to be with her?

I find it very interesting that you posted to Jo on the 27th, and stated how much it would mean to you if your W wrote a letter. The next day you received it.

How you communicate to her is so important. With built up emotions coming at you without warning, the other person sees you operating out of those bad emotions, and they made not hear what you are saying. In other words, they may not be getting the message you want to give.

So, I go back to what I said yesterday. Don't assume your W knows what you feel, what you want, or what "work" you want to see from her. Instead of allowing those bad feeling to fester, approach her calmly and open up to her. Timing is extremely important. IMHO, having a R talk late at night is the worst time, b/c everyone is exhausted and negative emotions tend to take over.

If your W has discovered the board, it could be a good thing......since she is trying to save the MR. Years ago, we had a high school coach on the board. His WAW discovered his posts and it actually served him well. She joined and they were a dynamic pair. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of your W reading what you write, you can try changing your name. Otherwise, I'd say to continue posting and saying what you want.

I agree with Sandi. Some WAS find the board and get super pissed and its a disaster. Others find the board and use this as a tool.

If she did find it, she used it as a tool to look in your mind and give you want you want to make your feel comfortable in the MR. That's a good thing.

Like Cbtdad asked, she clearly wants you an the M. What do you want?

Also, have you made changes to address the insecurities and issues with the MR that she had?

Hi Coconut, I think it's a big step her writing you the letter. I think like most of us H's here, we have regularly missed the signs our W's were giving us. I knew this was a problem in my relationship before and had suggested to my W that if she wasn't getting through to me to write me a letter, write things down, then sit me down and let me read it. I've always known I was an action oriented personality and her writing things down would have got through to me so much more. It was something she never tried so while I understand when W's complain about us not being there when needed etc, sometimes we do know our issues and suggest something different.

That's why it's hard for me to take when my W said she has tried everything when I know she never tried the one thing I asked her to try. An email while I was away from the house to read and process before going home would have been so much better for me than hitting me with something as soon as I got home.

Like others have said, take some time, read it through and then I think you will find your response that works for you both. All the best.

CBT, I do want to be M to her if we are both working on it being a good one, her letter made leaps and bounds towards telling me she is, so the answer is yes, I do want our M.

Sandi, I think I realized what she may of found, and it's not this site. I write myself a lot, I find it easiest to send myself emails to collect my thoughts, I sent the following email to myself and then forgot my phone at home the next day (same day she gave me letter) and she was off for a few hours that morning.

My email, subject done.
____________________________________________________
I told you I wanted to talk about us two days after I noticed you being withdrawn from me. You hadn't talked to me in two years.

I immediately changed when you told me how I had hurt you, I stopped playing video games, started exercising, started trying to engage with you, spent more time with Son.
After I changed, you started an A. I found out about A, I said you need to quit academy, you said you won't. You say you will come home right after class and won't go there when he's there. You have class the next day, you stay at station over an hour after class. Truck checks are a week after I find out about an A, you know he's gonna be there, you go to truck checks, and everyone since.

You tell me you will only have a professional relationship with him, I find pictures of him on his Facebook page that you liked after I found out. I tell you I don't like you being friends with him on Facebook, you tell me it's only social media, but finally delete him days later. But don't delete him on other social media accounts till I find out a month later.

I bring up relationship talks, you get defensive, you never bring up a single relationship talk.

I schedule counseling. You tell me if their gonna upset me you'll stop going.

I try and schedule alone time with you, you schedule nights out with your academy friends.

I read as much relationship material as I can, try and understand how to recover from an A, how to express your love, etc. You read paragraphs that I text you, but still no dialogue.

if I don't snuggle with you, we don't touch, if I don't initiate intamicy we don't touch.

You have done a lot that I've asked for, but I'm tired of asking. I'm tired of feeling like I need to do everything I know to do to save our marriage, while you only do what I specifically ask for. I'm tired of you seeing your affair partner, you never telling me when you do or what has been said between you two, and I'm trying to pretend that I'm ok with it.

I tried giving you options that I would be ok with, see if he will move stations, he says he is planning on it, but you won't ask him when.

I am done trying to do everything I can to save our marriage. I'm done with trying to be ok with you being around him, because I don't you to be mad at me for having to quit... What, it was you who chose to have an affair with someone at the station, why are you going to resent me? Your choices, your consequences.

I will be moving out of the house at the end of July. If the house is in the market, I will help pay the mortgage until it's sold, if it's not, you'll need to figure out how to pay the mortgage by then. I am going to need my check to secure housing and furniture, etc. I will continue to pay 1/2 of all credit card bills minimum payments.
_________________________________________

I'm pretty sure she saw this email, it was my thoughts, and i was planning on talking to her about my wants without the last paragraph.

Ginger, at this point I don't think it would be horrible for her to read my threads, but it would be like letting her read my diary, so not something I plan on sharing.

Si, I agree, letter was a big step and changed my mind on laying out my wants as I had planned, although I will figure out what I would want the most and share them with her. I don't expect her to mind read.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

Sandi2,

I agree, I feel like her she was honest in her letter, she let me know why she doesn't want to quit the academy and was truthful in saying that she doesn't know if she can count on me. For the record, none of that has been said by her before the letter.

She never said it before because it's only partially true. It's little small fleeting feelings she's had over time blown up to become rationalizations and justifications for doing whatever the heck she wanted/wants. It's called a history re-write.

Waywards are selfish entitled monsters. She read your journal and came up with her best most manipulative and controlling arguments so she could to keep you AND the volunteer position.

She hit on all the major wayward wife themes:

-You are controlling
-You neglected me
-It's your fault
-I'm sorry I failed to tell you what a POS you were years ago
-We are friends and I don't love you like I should (and she won't as long as OM remains anywhere in her life)
-Your behavior put me in this position
-I gave and gave (you and son) for years and now it's time for something for her - that just hers
-I feel like a caged animal
-I have to do this - it's almost life or death

But I did like a small part of the letter:

Quote:

That I should have sat you down and told you straight that your behavior is affecting our relationship and my feelings for you. I didn�t do that and I realize now that it needed to be done. I�m sorry that I didn�t try harder. I�m sorry that I didn�t call you out on your behavior and I�m sorry for not telling you how angry I was at you for it.

This is exactly why you can't just roll over and not make a boundary about volunteering at the FF. Her letter sounds as it was designed to sound. If you try to make her quit, she'll choose the firehouse and her son over you -- SO DON'T EVEN TRY IT. It's a threat. She's actually the one trying to cage you into accepting this arrangement that is destructive to you (and HER since you are her family).

Call her bluff and state your feelings just as she supposedly wished she'd have done years prior. Use this paragraph to defend your expressing yourself and "trying harder". She may get mad, she may leave you --- so what. It's better than dealing with the indignation and anxiety of her volunteering with the OM and your marriage just stagnating.

For example, as I recall (and she can probably relate her story a little better than I), Sandi and her husband had their first d-day and she gave up several of the online OM's she had had at that time but she secretly kept and maintained a relationship with one of them for another year. She just talked above about how coming to being truly sorry took a really long time for her and, I extrapolate that part of that was due to the fact she had not achieved "no contact" for a long time with all the OMs. It took a forum of former way wards and former betrayed's to convince her to cut off the relationship completely and THEN, lo and behold, she actually could feel remorse.

Your wife's foggy letter is to be expected. She's barely sorry and just going through the motions. She's still in wayward selfish entitled mode and part of the reason for that is because she is still seeing OM regularly at and around the firehouse. A person that hurts someone to such extreme would try to make or maybe discuss making amends, not defend their choices including the choice to remain in daily contact with OM.

Another thought. It's not like you can wait this out to decide. Every day you accept this situation the way it is is just kicking the marriage ending conflict down the road and making it harder and harder as she becomes more engrossed in that world. She'll very very likely get over you stating your boundary and sticking to your assertion that you have no intent to control her but that for you to continue in this relationship she needs to stop hurting you daily and give up the FF. She clearly wants the marriage so don't waste your time believing all the other manipulations and wayward babble.

An alternative did occur to me as I read the thread. If you take FF academy next spring than she should quit now, wait and take it with you and the two of you can do it together. In one year of not being there and leaving there immediately she'll probably be able to fall back in love with you and never want to set foot in that firehouse again and you'll be able to overcome her supposed fears and demonstrate that you can "be there for her". You then aren't asking her to give up the dream forever - just less than one year until next spring. By then, you'll know whether you are recovering or not.

Sometimes I wish the poster Mr. Bond was still around to demonstrate just how long recovery takes when the wife still works for or with the OM. He went on and one in pseudo-recovery for about 3 years while his wife worked for the Dr. OM at the hospital. It wasn't until the OM retired and actual "no contact" was achieved that their marriage finally recovered. Are you willing to wait until OM moves or gives up volunteering to not be concerned or even think about it every time that beeper/pager goes off at 2am or every time she goes over to the firehouse for training and socializing???? You'll end up rue'ing the day you realize you should have put your foot down immediately on this issue (and by foot down I don't mean in a punishing mean aggressive demeaning way - you can state boundaries very nicely and with empathy even - you can have complete understanding of how hard this will be for her to give up (until next spring?) but it's just something you can't accept and it's even more cruel that she even asks (and manipulates) you to accept it.

GBD, what you say resonates with me, and if your some sort of pro D troll then your worse than OM, because you get my blood boiling and make me want to put forth the ultimatum...

I struggle between believing my W and wanting her to have a passion in her life that makes her feel alive, and wanting her away from OM at all costs. Your reasoning seems sound, and I see how I can use her own words against her. You trigger me into wanting to take action, but your late to my party and I don't know if I can trust your motives.

Can you give me a little insight? My best guess is your a religious counselor, but I don't know that for sure. Can you clear up your experience for me? I haven't been able to find your background or where your experience derives from.

I'm no pro-divorce troll.

I'm a long recovered betrayed husband. My wife had an affair and we've recovered.

I am very pro reconciliation but I'm also against rug sweeping away the affair. I've tried my best to help many betrayed husband's save their marriage (if and for as long as they want to). My story isn't on any public forum. I've just read several forums for years.

I am religious and I do volunteer in the marriage ministry at my church but I'm not a marriage counselor.

I don't want to encourage you to be mad or adversarial. This is your wife who you love even though in her mind, she FEELS you don't love her enough and aren't or weren't there for her. I know, from experience, that Her FEELINGS are merely rationalizations but to her they are 100% real so giving her ultimatums (or, God forbid) putting her in the driver's seat of your recovery would both be mistakes. Despite your pain, fear and uncertainly, you are the only sane spouse remaining in your relationship right now. So you simply and calmly put the boundary out there. It's not up for negotiation or manipulation. You, her and your family are worth more than a stupid firefighting volunteer position she can, at least, hold off a year on DUE TO HER POOR CHOICES. If she values her family and you as I believe she does, she'll acquiesce, begrudgingly; and, in time (might not happen immediately as she plays out her attempt to control and manipulate you) get over it.

Your marriage can survive and even thrive once she gets over her self inflicted upsettedness. OM remaining in her life ~ it might survive, for a time, but it certainly won't thrive. I've never seen a recovery work with OM still around. Even if she really despises him (and really, how can you trust for sure that's the honest truth) it's still contact which messes with her mind and keeps her trapped in foggy wayward thinking.

I literally DON'T want you to divorce - my advice is PRO-marriage.

What would you do if your weren't afraid? Fear is debilitating and demoralizing. Let he continue working with OM and you'll be fearful every time she sets foot out that door.

Coco, I started to write my reaction to your W's email a couple of days ago but had to stop. I was too fired up. In general I have two things to say.

1. Any spouse that cheats on their partner should be asking what they can possibly do to make things right, what they can do to help minimize their partners pain, etc.

2. The idea of putting S first and her first was disturbing to me. I am 1000% against the idea of children coming first and nothing being stronger than a mother's love. I think GB nailed it when he pointed out the selfishness of this all.

I'm not giving advice here. I'd have to sort through a lot to uncover what I believed to be right. Divorce is not out of the question with a spouse that has betrayed you.

I think if you let her dictate the terms of R and accept her story you might save the M in name, but I don't see it as a ground in which an intimate relationship will rebuild. I, personally, might be willing to stay in an unloving marriage for the remainder of my days because I said I would...but the problem is since she already used the lack of intimacy as an excuse to cheat and walk once, it would be hard for me to invest further decades of sacrifice to a woman that has basically said she isn't prepared to make sacrifices herself. She seems to want a marriage that is almost unrealistic to achieve without making it the priority it demands.

All I know for sure is that I'd be very detached. I like what GB has written, I don't know how I could ever be emotionally open or vulnerable to someone that has me and our marriage last on the priority list after putting it in a precarious situation.

I don't know, Coconut. It all feels like a big mess.

Your wife's letter made sense to me. I can relate to the need to find a passion as your kids leave home. I can understand why she feels she can't count on you to be there forever. I might be getting people mixed up, but S is from a previous relationship, right? So some of the trust issues might be holdovers from her first relationship.

And although I put my H first in my life now, if we divorced and I somehow ended up in another M while I still had kids at home, I would put my kids ahead of the new M.

And even now, I could see theoretical situations where I would put the needs of my kids ahead of H's needs.

I wonder if response to her letter will split along gender lines, or if I'm just odd.

Thanks for the response Rose.

I spoke with my mom about this at dinner the other night. We both agreed that once you have children and are a single parent you definitely have made a commitment to take care of those children and you can't usurp that because you want more in your own life.

It would be a problem if she put another man in front of her child in a way that negatively impacted him.

It is another problem if she uses having a son as an excuse to not commit wholeheartedly to the marriage and making her husband the center of her world as well. My mom (who is a feminist with a PHD) said "people that say the kids have to come first are making excuses because they don't want to put what's needed into the relationship".

Her conclusion was that any talk of putting one love in front of another was kind of disturbing to her, the same way as it would be to say you loved one kid more than another. She feels you have to honor your love and commitment to both, and that anytime you prioritize it doesn't play out well. Just wanted to clarify that when I said I am against 'putting the kids first' I am not necessarily for putting them last either. I just happen to agree that it's a bad path to follow.

I like your posts Rose, thank you for sharing.

I'm going to step back from your thread for a while, coconut.

I'm going to leave you with this. My daughter will be number one in my life. Yes, it makes a big difference when the child is from a previous R. There is no guy who is going to walk into our lives right now and take precedence over her. It is what it is. Does that mean I will not give loving attention to that guy? No? It means the one constant in my life is my daughter and I protect our future and I know that guy could walk out at anytime. Her well-being will always be first. Heck, it's always number one before my own. Even when a married couple have a child, I believe they are very different kinds of love, and I loved my husband and my daughter with the same strength, but in different ways.

I have said this before and I will say it again. I don't think it is ok to cheat. (my ex cheated on me in the very worst way). However, there are many offenses in a marriage both partners that commit that are hurtful and cause distrust. Cheating and these offensives are mutually exclusive. One does not make an excuse for another, but both can be very hurtful and take lots of repair. There are many ways to break marriage vows.

I have had, since I was divorced, a few married men try to have an EA with me. None of them ever wanted to leave their wives. I had not cut off all communications with them the second I realized what they were doing. I counseled them instead, and did my best to lead them back towards their wives.

Again, I see people here telling you what you should tolerate and what you should not tolerate. You need to decide for yourself what you feel, and not how you SHOULD be feeling.

I wish you all the best and hope you find some true peace and come to a decision that you are comfortable with.

Ginger, I appreciate your input, not sure why your backing away, but if for you I fully understand, I just hope it's not because you don't think it's because I'm not listening to you, because I am.

Ok, so I want to clarify.. I never felt she put son in front of me until I disengaged from family, but when we have discussed current sitch, the last couple of years is really the time frame that is usually referenced, and during that time it was her and son quite often (my own doing). Prior to my disengaging, it was always me and her and OUR son, we both love him as much as each other, all 3 of us where in most pictures and she didn't try to get pics with her and S without me. But the when I really confirmed her withdrawing from me was when it was obvious she didn't want me in a family pic. When I brought up her putting S before me to her, I was referencing little things like me saying where I wanted to go to dinner and her checking with S to see if he was ok with going there, it really was just little things like that. I guess it was me feeling like I'm the man of the house and get to make decisions without his ok, it's not always like that but enough that I brought it up to her.

My biggest issue with what she wrote is that it's almost written like she's replacing sons pending absence (he will be going off to college in two years) with firefighting, instead of trusting I will be there. My problem is if I am going to be there, I'll be there alone with her gone at fire fighting. But realistically other than academy class, firefighting calls and meetings take up minimal time, maybe 10 hours a month (most calls she's gone 20 minutes, and meetings are once a month for 2 or 3 hours, truck checks are 1 hr a week). I truly believe OM isn't in picture right now, other than seeing him when also at station and at the meetings. But i do understand that just seeing him is too much.

For the most part, I don't worry when she's at station, but it is always there in my mind. So now I ask myself what's the right way to handle, do I expect her to quit immediately, or do I continue working on me and stop working on R unless she quits? She already knows my stance on NC, so barring voicing my boundary again, do I just move forward with separation and work on my future without her in it? Or would a better way be for me to contact him on her group me app, say it's been 1 1/2 months since he said he's changing stations very soon, and ask specifically when that's happening? Or do I let her finish academy and see how I feel then, and possibly have her take a 6 month leave of absence until I join, if I do, and if I don't then readdress her going back without me (at least we would have 6 months total no contact).

Hi Coconut, I'm not sure if you have read my whole story but last February was when I had the first confrontation with my W about her work colleague. After a few weeks she was out at a work thing and said she nearly drove to his place. Came home and told me about it and said she was scared of her feelings. I was already mentally exhausted from building a house so you are in a much stronger piece of mind than me. When this came out it completely broke me, I even spent one night in hospital. My W has never taken full responsibility for her actions, always said it was a symptom of other problems. She wanted to keep being friends and wasn't willing to seek counseling for herself etc. Everything was still my fault.

I know how hard the working environment situation can be and I couldn't get past it especially when their contact and conversations with each other starting building after 3-4 months. I had no time to heal and got angry and it broke me completely driving me crazy.

My only thoughts with you is while the letter had some issues, from what I understand she has taken responsibility and is working on herself counseling, yes?
I don't know how to advise you, I did ask if my W would leave her job for me and she said no. She then wouldn't give up 1 'friend' for me either, she gave up her family instead. I can only suggest the risk is still there. I don't know if you can use other people as examples in communicating with your W but in my experience it just didn't work. I never got any full no contact but I also hadn't learnt or found any help in dealing with the situation.

Maybe I should add, some friends of mine who went through a similar experience where OW was pursuing a friends husband. He wasn't returning the pursuit but it was causing problems between him and W, he moved departments for his W to prove his loyalty. She has told me of the great strides that he is doing to rebuild trust even considering he didn't get involved with OW.

When I see them, that's when I see things about what it means to be truely loved by a spouse.

Coconut,

I have been following along your thread very closely over the past two weeks. I am concerned enough to step in and offer some thoughts here. Although I am really pleased that you asked some posters really hard questions about their motivations.

To me, I thought W wrote a really heartfelt letter and she took the risk by being vulnerable to you. That is a huge step on her part for it is very obvious to me that she's put a lot of thought into it. It is her point of view. You can parse it all you want, but THE BOTTOM line is that she is opening up more and more to you. That is very good in my book for piecing. As you can see around DB threads, very seldom do WASes apologize for their awful choices.

Awful choices notwithstanding, one must remember that it takes TWO to destroy a marriage and it also takes TWO to re-build it together. It seems fine and dandy that some posters come around and blast W putting all the blame on her shoulders while forgetting that both parties contributed to the M breakdown. The only thing you truly can control is your actions, patterns, and behaviors. Frankly, you fell short in the H department too and you've acknowledged here. I think it would be a really good idea for you to have a talk with W by thanking her for her letter and owning up to your shortcomings as well.

Patterns, behaviors, and actions all originate in one's head. What I mean by that is that all thoughts drive one's behavior. If one has a negative outlook, then actions will manifest them outwardly. If one approaches situations with a loving mindset, then actions will follow accordingly. This is why piecing is so, so, SO tough for many DBers because they all forget to approach it with a beginner's mind and re-learning about their WASes in a new light.

Coconut, I strongly believe that you truly want to save your M deep in your soul. The problem I am seeing from my vantage point is that your emotions get the better of you and you get riled up by some posters who try to push you to take this or that action. Remember, they don't get to live with them...but you do. They go away on their merry way because they don't actually walk in your shoes nor in your M.

Use your head here, my friend. Your head will not steer you in the wrong direction if you remain cool, calm, and collected. You are not some small toy sailboat being tossed by some "unseen" forces out there. You are the Captain. Take charge of your emotions.

Stop the "separation" talk for real. It is your emotions doing the talking...better known as the little ego. Be more expansive and take the long-view here. Yeah, granted that it is not ideal that W continues to interact with the XOM at the fire house. In my mind, I would sit back and stay quiet until the completion of the academy training. Why is that? When the academy training is done, then you will be able to see clearly the next steps. What do I mean by that? Upon the completion of training, you will see where XOM will go or W will be placed. That is the key factor to take into consideration.

THEN that will be the prime time for you internally re-evaluate your position. You really don't want to constantly hold the sword of Damocles over your W. That will end the M very quickly. I believe that you sincerely do not want that, right?

Going forward, you really need to engage W and discuss solutions on how to make your M stronger, healthier, and happier. In reading your latest posts, you seem to move the goalposts willy nilly....is that fair to you, W, and the M????!!

Healthy marriages nurture each other's individual passions. I think you can figure out a way to support W's passion. For me, my passion is golfing and if someone told me to quit golfing, I'd die a slow death. No question. In fact, if I were you, I'd attend the station's social events. Facing XOM? Pllfffft. This ins't the time to act like a scaredy cat. You are waaay much better and bigger than him. I bet he would cower around you and avoid you like the plague. Just watch.

In summary, you and W really need to turn toward each other. It starts with you now that she's sent you the heart-felt letter. What are you going to do to step up and engage with her? How would you go about it?

Forget about the separation talk nonsense. You are your own worst enemy at times.

If I had to distill all of that ^^^^ into one sentence it would be this:

Do you want a Mexican standoff or save the M?

Originally Posted By: Wonka

If I had to distill all of that ^^^^ into one sentence it would be this:

Do you want a Mexican standoff or save the M?

LOL, I thought of the Mexican standoff analogy too... damned if I do, damned if I don't..

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

I've been thinking about it since yesterday, and my thought is to wait until academy is complete to figure out where I go from there. We are having a good time together right now, she knows the Firehouse messes with my head and she tries to be sensitive to that, and she asked me out tonight. All in all, I don't need to be in a hurry, I have time on my side to see how much the academy/firehouse actually interferes with our piecing.

I am trying to take advice at arms distance, but I really really appreciate the different perspectives. It seems to me that all WS share similar traits, and that the same actions are needed by all to get them out of the fog. But it seems that once out of the fog, it doesn't seem that what works is so well defined.

What I do know is that contact with OM or not, my W is almost completely back to who she was prior to this whole mess started. My issues have been that back to where we were is not good enough, we need to put in more work and pay more attention to each other.

Coconut,

You write:

Originally Posted By: Coconut

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

Figuring out the best path seems to me that you are waiting for the "ideal" conditions to do so....which just fear talking you out of taking a step forward. If you wait for this or that, then there will be no movement. Waiting for perfect timing never did serve Steve Jobs at all.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

My mom (who is a feminist with a PHD) said "people that say the kids have to come first are making excuses because they don't want to put what's needed into the relationship".

This speaks to me greatly. It's what my WW has repeated over and over (even though she dumped both S and I day after day to go play single woman for at least 5 months) since she walked out. Just a lame excuse. Our S is so important, but she's using him to fuel her selfish actions rather than actually looking out for him. Thank you for sharing this, I'll never take that phrase (our S comes first) seriously again.

Whether Mrs. Coconut gives up the volunteer fire fighting gig has nothing to do whatsoever with her slightly messed up priorities regarding her son versus her husband.

She conflated the issues in her email but I don't see how it really supports her argument to keep the job.

Her logic went something like:

-We went from a loving relationship to a friendship
-I love my son more than you (you can never understand a mother's love)
-My son is 16 and leaving home soon
-I need this "job" to help deal with him leaving
-your feelings don't matter

Loving her son more than him has nothing to do with why she should or shouldn't keep this job. It doesn't add to the argument at all. It's not like Coconut is asking her to choose him over her son. Suppose she actually loved her husband equal to or more than her son --> she'd still want to keep the job because she is going to miss son when he leaves for college and they become empty nesters anyway. Loving her son more than her husband has nothing to do with keeping this volunteer position working with a bunch of men and with a guy she recently had an affair with.

Plus ---> her son isn't AT the firehouse and he's not left the nest yet. He's got one or two more years of high school so if she really loved him so much you would think she would want to be sticking around home for just a little longer getting every piece of son time she can possible get before he leaves for college. Further, she (and you) have a chance here to demonstrate and model repentance, appropriate apologies, forgiveness, redemption, restoration within the context of a marital relationship to your (her?) son. I know he's 16 but I'm sure he'd prefer his parents to be in a loving kind relationship versus a contentious and/or divorced one.

My point is ---> it's not about love or who ranks higher ---> this is about a yet foggy recently wayward wife expressing her (to be expected) selfishness and entitlement. After ALL she's endured {slight eye roll because some is real and some is not but none of it justifies her choice to cheat}, she FEELS she deserved/deserves this. Her feelings misguide her and her statements portray a woman that isn't thinking clearly.

If she truly wants a loving marriage instead of a "friendly" one, there are certain boundaries that need to be in place. You don't work closely with old boyfriends/girlfriends or people you made out with recently while married. There's no negotiating boundaries. They just are. Can you imagine the arguments you could have with the fence in your back yard? Just try asking the metal meshed staked fence to step back a foot or fall down and let you through.

Again, you don't have to be mean or upset about it. You don't even have to say "quit or I'm divorcing you". You just say "No, it's not acceptable" and maybe "I'm not going to acquiesce to my own abuse". If she rants you ask her if she is trying to control your feelings and how you feel like a caged animal unable to express your feelings. If she wants to file divorce, that's fine...it's a free country and you can't make her not file (because this isn't about controlling her). If she asks if you are going to file divorce you maybe say something like "probably not - but I'm going to continue to object to this job while continuing also to be the best husband , father (or step father), person I can be and continue to demonstrate that I love you as you struggle with your choices (i.e.- demonstrating that "you are there for her" while recognizing she's very lost right now). I have no intention of controlling you or making you quit but you should know and will continue to be told that everyday you "volunteer" devastates me. Hopefully someday, sooner or later, that will matter enough to you. If she brings up the son argument again or ranking her love ---> this isn't about your relationship with son, this is about you, me and our family being the best we can be.

Her compliance will probably or hopefully correlate with her feelings for you.

I also want to address something Ginger said. I'm not criticizing her advice or statements in any way. I just want to add a thought to it.

Originally Posted By: Ginger

I have said this before and I will say it again. I don't think it is ok to cheat. (my ex cheated on me in the very worst way). However, there are many offenses in a marriage both partners that commit that are hurtful and cause distrust. Cheating and these offensives are mutually exclusive. One does not make an excuse for another, but both can be very hurtful and take lots of repair. There are many ways to break marriage vows.

I hope I'm not coming off as saying his recently wayward wife is a horrible person who deserves no mercy or empathy nor that there isn't a single shred of truth to her complaints listed in her letter. I very much dislike the sin of adultery and I'm observant of what it does to the wayward spouses mindset for a time but that mindset isn't forever. So when I use terms like foggy selfish entitled wayward, I'm not describing, labeling or even branding the person forever tainted, but rather referring to their current mindset (that COULD become permanent if they don't change their destructive path). I'm not a believer in "once a cheater, always a cheater" because I think just about every human is capable of inflicting any number of sins, hurts and pains on other humans. It's our nature. But, all that being said, if we are to get about giving advice about address that "lots to repair" we need to be cognizant of that wayward mindset and what self and other destructive things it will want to do.

Coconut can address his side of the street and the issues and hurts he brought to the relationship, if any (wayward's can rewrite history and him saying it's the first he's heard about some of these complaints is a pretty good indication it's mostly cow chips), while also making quitting the volunteer job a boundary that's good for the relationship that's going to "take a lot to repair".

Maybe my only criticism might be that the above quote might imply that Coconut should endure her working with OM because he wasn't a great or perfect husband and there is more than one way to break vows in the marriage (as though you feel he has done that and thereby he should give her a break and let her do what she FEELS she has to).

That all being said, I, too, am sympathetic to Coconut and the fearful choices he has to make. I KNOW it's hard and I was very fortunate to have a situation that didn't require me to immediately state a boundary like this at the risk of losing my marriage. But when Ginger says this:

Quote:

Again, I see people here telling you what you should tolerate and what you should not tolerate. You need to decide for yourself what you feel, and not how you SHOULD be feeling.

I want you to consider your FEELINGS but also realize feelings lie (just like they are lying to your wife right now). Consider instead what is right and best. Maybe that's a difference between a boundary and control. This isn't a FEELING of punishment or justice, rather it is what is right and best for your marriage for multitudes of reasons. It's best and right that your wife not hang out at that volunteer workplace with those people (mostly men) that all know what happened and most particularly around the OM and the best [recovered] marriages simply don't tolerate either spouse hanging around with anyone either one of them have ever had any sexual or emotional relationship in the past. So I say, for the most part, IGNORE or OVERRIDE your feelings of fear and chaos (the unknown) and embrace the unemotional logic of what is right.

In the end, my wife loves and respects me for everything I did to bust up her affair and save her from destroying herself and our family. I made her mad as heck sometimes and she swore she'd hate me forever but sometimes you just gotta say "I matter too". I certainly can't guarantee success, but chances are very high she'll come around. It's not like OM is an option (supposedly). Either way, you'll respect yourself more for undertaking my suggestions and advice no matter how this turns out long run.

Stay the course and you'll be fine.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

It's nice that Wonka stopped by to give you her counter-productive personal philosophies and non-solution oriented techniques (just wait it out and see what happens and try not to be so emotional because your wife is hurting and fragile) but it is my understanding that that really isn't consistent with the purpose of this forum:

Originally Posted By: Cadet

The purpose of this site is to help you navigate through the solution-oriented techniques created by Michele Weiner-Davis that have been proven for over 30 years to save marriages. Her techniques are spelled out in the materials linked to this site, but most commonly on this board we are talking about Divorce Busting(DB), Divorce Remedy(DR) and Keeping Love Alive (KLA). Most of the folks here are familiar with one or more of these works, and while it's most helpful if you familiar with the techniques we will help you navigate them. This is not a peer-counseling site, it's a brainstorming solutions site. And yet, some folks will give you 'advice'.

My advice is consistent with the only professional that matters on this forum (though many other professionals agree). Here's an excerpt from one of her books..

Originally Posted By: Page 207 The Divorce Remedy by MWD

THE UNFAITHFUL PERSON
If you are the partner who had an affair and your spouse still wants your marriage to work, it's time to push up your sleeves and get to work. Rebuilding trust and repairing your marriage is hard work, but it can be done. I've seen it happen many, many time. First of all, I want you to know that most people who have had affairs didn't mean to hurt their spouses. They often feel very bad about the fact that the affair has caused so much pain and wish they could turn back the hands of time. Although you can't change the past, you can change the future. I'm going to show you the step you need to take to get your marriage back on track.

STEP ONE - END THE AFFAIR

If you are dedicated to saving your marriage, if you haven't already, you need to stop the affair -- cold turkey. Affairs and marriages generally don't go together very well. If you want to rebuild trust, you need to start being trustworthy, and that means you need to stop having intimate relations of any kind with the OP. If you have become emotionally attached, I know this will require a great deal of personal strength. But the sooner you cut the ties, the better off your marriage will be.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you can just be friends or that the phone calls can continue because you're not having any face-to-face contact. NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. You need to tell the OP that you've decided to renew your commitment to your marriage. If this relationship has been satisfying unmet needs in your marriage, it will be eve more challenging to cut the cord, but you need to find healthy ways to get your needs met within the context of your marriage. I'm going to help you do that. I don't think you should stay married and be miserable. I think you should make your marriage great. Now's a good time.

Mrs. Coconut is fooling herself (and trying to fool Mr. Coconut) into thinking she can actually maintain some face-to-face contact with the OP and her letter described the unmet needs she's FELT in her marriage which she was obviously using OP to fill. It doesn't get any clearer than "no contact means no contact".

"Heartfelt"??? I'm stunned that anyone could actually read that letter and think it's heartfelt. It's more stomach felt IMO, as she hurled every emotion and feeling she could to rationalize and justify continuing to do exactly what it is she wants at his emotional expense (entitlement). After a year of real recovery she won't even recognize herself in the letter and she'll be calling herself a butt for writing it. Sure she's opening up a little about some resentments in your marriage that she's kept bottled up but she blowing them up and focusing on anything and everything she's ever catalogued that you've done to her to support her WANT to keep that job. Such feelings in no way justifies continuing behavior that will cause him to be resentful. They need to achieve "no contact' and get to work resolving and minimizing resentments versus creating more. IBecause I'm a believer in DB techniques and whole heartedly agree that you shouldn't stay married and be miserable. I think you should make your marriage great. Now's a good time to start.

This completely off topic, but I do have a question about something brought up on this thread.

I honestly don't even know what putting your spouse first or putting your kids first looks like?

i don't even get how you put one above the either. Sometimes kids needs come first, other a spouses, and most needs should be able to be met simultaneously , unless the needs of one or the other are ridiculous.

Like if my spouse said " honey, we really need to get away together without the kids " I'd be like " sure, let's arrange something" Yes, my kids would be without their parents for a few days but it would be healthy for our R.

Otherwise, I just don't get it.

Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs

It's nice that Wonka stopped by to give you her counter-productive personal philosophies and non-solution oriented techniques (just wait it out and see what happens and try not to be so emotional because your wife is hurting and fragile) but it is my understanding that that really isn't consistent with the purpose of this forum:

And this is why I questioned your experience knowledge. I have to work through enough of my emotions in dealing with my sitch without someone bringing their emotions into my sitch for me to also have to deal with.

This is what I know, I know Wonka has read every word I've posted for the last two months, I know that she could see where my head was at, and I know she took her time to hit me with 2 x 4's to stop me from doing things that would have been detrimental to rebuilding my M. I know that someone that invested isn't going to intentionally tell me to do something that will hurt my M, and I'd rather someone who cares that much about my M give me the wrong advice, than someone who is not invested.

I am ok with giving me advice, and appreciate it even if I don't buy into it, but I am not ok with attacking of others because their advice is different. I don't think it is cool to attack others to make yourself look better.

For now, I'm letting things ride. If I met my W for the first time today, and she worked with an ex who she dated for three weeks and kissed a few times, I wouldn't ask her to quit. As long as I feel like she chooses me, that she wants to be with me, then I will believe that regardless of who she sees out and about, that she will only have room in her heart for me. It is widely agreed that a woman only has room in her heart to love one man, as long as her actions show me i am that one, then I will support her doing things she is passionate about.

Coconut

You're on the right path my friend and completely correct as long as you're w has love for one man and that is you keep the emotions out of it and continue to be the man she would never leave.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

This completely off topic, but I do have a question about something brought up on this thread.

I honestly don't even know what putting your spouse first or putting your kids first looks like?

i don't even get how you put one above the either. Sometimes kids needs come first, other a spouses, and most needs should be able to be met simultaneously , unless the needs of one or the other are ridiculous.

Like if my spouse said " honey, we really need to get away together without the kids " I'd be like " sure, let's arrange something" Yes, my kids would be without their parents for a few days but it would be healthy for our R.

Otherwise, I just don't get it.

It doesn't come up much, but say your spouse and your child both have performances or recognition ceremonies on the same night.

Or say you and your spouse vehemently disagree about whether to give your child anti-depressants.

Or say you are divorced and have fallen in love, but your minor children don't want to share a home with your new partner.

Cnut,
just keep the course. There is no magic pill. There is no right on wrong answer. There is no way this is going to be fixed overnight. If you want your marriage and you believe your W wants your marriage then you continue to do what you think is best for your marriage. Only you truly know what that is. You are the one there, hearing her words and watching her actions.
I get the "passion" thing she has for wanting to do the academy. My W has the same thing through paramedic school. Yes, I wish that passion was directed at me, but that's not realistic. I use to think so, then I realized that it's not all about me. She is an individual and has her own wants and needs.
I think when you said that the best thing to do is let her finish out the academy and then go from there was right on.
At that point you can go back to the OM transferring, etc

I like Rose's reply. Those are some macro examples, and she's right, those wouldn't come up much. There are micro examples that come up daily.

It starts with the thought process. That little mantra that we tell ourselves, "what's important is the kids". This can originate from our culture, or from what's lacking in the marriage. For example I know XW exalted the kids and neglected the marriage, but I also understand that the marriage was deeply dissatisfying and it was the only way she could figure out to meet her needs and take care of what she needed to take care of. I in turn did the same thing by putting my work first and feeling my main mission was to provide. I work this in because I want to make it clear that the kids aren't the only thing that can come in front of a marriage, and it isn't always a conscious choice.

Anyway, from this mentality as my mom said it provides an excuse to dismiss the needs of the marriage. Not spending couple time together. Letting the sex life become non-existent. Not dressing nicely. Not doing things for each other. All defended with the idea statements like "marriage has to take the back burner for a while after kids are around, that's just the way it is", or "they're his/her kids too, they should feel loved that I'm caring for the kids", or "he/she can take care of themselves, the kids can't", and so on.

As a pool player I have every line of the old Paul Newman film "The Hustler" memorized. There is a great line in which Paul Newman, the young hotshot, is playing Minnesota Fats, the seasoned veteran. Paul Newman is playing great and has a big lead, but Minnesota Fats isn't worried about that. He has seen a lot of people get a lead but not be able to put him away. Indeed, Paul seems pleased that he's outplayed him that far, and is starting to feel satisfied with what he's accomplished even though the match isn't over. And a growing dread that Minnesota Fats isn't giving up. At one point Paul Newman says "Quit fat man. I'm the best, the best you've ever seen. Even if you beat me I'm still the best!"

And just like that Minnesota Fats knew he was going to win. That line "even if you beat me I'm still the best" was the flag. It showed weakness, it showed that Paul was making excuses and prepared to accept a loss and find a way to rationalize it to himself and feel good about simply getting a lead. It was at that point that MN Fat's backer (the guy putting up the money) said "Stick with this kid, he's a loser!" Sure enough, MN Fats came back and emptied Paul out of his entire bankroll.

That's how I view the whole "kids come first, spouse will have to understand". It generally leads to neglect of the marriage. I haven't seen that followed by a mutually fulfilling relationship.

Now, that's not saying it's possible. If anyone can do it I believe Ginger that you could, and I wouldn't bet against you. Just what I've seen play out in many relationships.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

And this is why I questioned your experience knowledge. I have to work through enough of my emotions in dealing with my sitch without someone bringing their emotions into my sitch for me to also have to deal with.

Cnut, I have lurked silently on your threads for sometime now, but not chimed in as your sitch is one that I did not get the pleasure of going through.
But as I have noticed so many chiming in and with often varying viewpoints I am intrigued as the advice varies and probably due to each persons personal experiences.
DBing states that one should try what works until it does not and then try something else. Avoid the cheesless tunnels if you will.

I don't have any advice on what you should do and my opinion would simply be to work with a DB coach if you are not already as they would seem to be the best option for experienced knowledge and leaving out their emotions.

I am pulling for you and hope to watch your switch play out in a very positive outcome.

SH, nice to hear from you, I appreciate your support. To bad you didn't catch my whole sitch, it was one heck of a ride, I think my emotional swings made for a perfect what not to do...

So like I said, I'm ready to let the academy ride out, I've committed myself to that. Now I'm trying to figure out what that looks like for me, does that mean I'm willing to just back away and not interfere, or does that mean I am willing to fully support and participate..

Ok, so now that I've wrote that out I realize those are my two extreme options, and I need to figure out what middle ground looks like. My W volunteered for the 4th of July parade and to volunteer at the picnic.. But I'm not sure I want to be part of "extra curricular" activities she takes on, quite frankly an old friend of mine is having a 4th of July picnic at his house I'd much rather attend.

I really have considered just telling her I will not interfere with her finishing academy, but I will not be part of it (including her graduation ceremony).. But I think that would be me being weak and avoiding conflict... Now I'm thinking a better way to go will be to tell her that while I have backed off my need for her to leave the academy, I am not interested in participating in non essential functions. I think that will provide me the opportunity to support her in achieving this goal, but also allow me to make it clear that I do not believe her remaining there is the best option for our MR.

I will also give my S the invite to attend my buddies party. My W always says that one of the reasons she wants to finish the academy is to show S that you can achieve what you put your mind to, but my S couldn't care less about the academy. My S is a very very high achiever, both in sports and academics, and contrary to my W beliefs, he gains nothing from her being there, it actually annoys him. So I will give him the option to come with me, but my guess is he will pick his own option of hanging out with girlfriend.

Coconut,

I really think you should be involved in social activities with W at the firehouse so you can be the supportive spouse while getting to know her colleagues and at the same time staking your territory as the husband. I promise you that the XOM will be quaking in his black boots seeing you there and he will most definitely try his best to avoid you.

And yes you will attend her graduation ceremony with S. Sometimes we may not always like our spouse's hobbies or whatnot, but we do need to be supportive of their achievements. Be the bigger person here. You are very capable of this and this is not the time to disengage from W. Otherwise it'll just be more of the same from you.

You must let this sink in you: turn toward W and engage with her. Joint activities is a bonding agent I the M especially after an A. It is a very dangerous time for you to be disinterested and disengaged with W and the M.

Wonka, I will think about what you are suggesting, I have been fully engaged with my W and my M, im just not sure if I want to participate in this parade / barbecue. It's not at her station, so it's unlikely many of the people from her station will be there for me to meet, and there aren't that many events like this (4 or 5 a year). I will consider what you are saying, maybe I'll bring son and go for a short while to show support, but I don't want to portray that I'm happy about my W involvement.

I assure you I have no fear of being around OM, other than the possibility of my anger flaring up, but I have no doubt I'm the better person (and much stronger person).

Ok, I have thought about it, I will attend the function. I will catch the parade and then spend a little time at the barbecue, maybe it will help me be more accepting of it since regardless of what I do, it's in my life. The first time I actually try to stay middle of the road I'm told to going all in might be the right approach, lol. It's amazing how I can see other people's sitchs so clearly but mine is so blurry... Can't see the forest through the trees I guess.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

Ok, I have thought about it, I will attend the function. I will catch the parade and then spend a little time at the barbecue, maybe it will help me be more accepting of it since regardless of what I do, it's in my life. The first time I actually try to stay middle of the road I'm told to going all in might be the right approach, lol. It's amazing how I can see other people's sitchs so clearly but mine is so blurry... Can't see the forest through the trees I guess.

Just a quick drop by, but I think your initial idea of staying clear is more of what I would do in my situation. You're further along, so you need to be in more of the supporting H role. She's making efforts for you, you need to show support. She knows it's something you're not dying to do, your being there will (likely) be appreciated....

It's always easier to analyze and think about stuff when your emotions aren't involved.

I think it would be a mistake to tell her you won't have any part of the FF social activities, when she's made it abundantly clear how important FF is to her. Are you wanting to punish her? That is the way it looks, from the outside. When you are trying to piece the M back together, you need to show each other support. The more you exclude yourself, the more she is seen as a single woman, and the more she will continue going out without inviting her H.

After all that has taken place, you can attend the parade and the FF barbecue. I think it will show her support. Your attendance there makes a statement that you are a couple, and you have not broken up. Don't smother her at the barbecue or try to put on a show of PDA, but do stand by her, socialize, and let her introduce you around. Be sure your male confidence is high on the chart.

Not attending her graduation is just plain mean, IMO. She has worked really hard and she is proud of her acomplishment. Not attending will really hurt your MR. It is the OM you want to hurt, so don't take it out on her. And one more thought on this..........it would be a really bad move, and then tell her you are going to become a FF, too. (Which, I don't think your heart is in the job, or even if it's a good idea since you already have day jobs together). Don't you think it's more just you wanting to be wherever she is b/c of the whole A Issue?

I know you both have things to work out. It may take a couple of years before you finally feel the MR has healed and is where you want it.

There is that thing in you that wants to punish her, and I think it gets in the way of you making right decisions. I want to make a statement about where you are on the DB path. If you are piecing, you don't necessarily apply the same actions you were doing when she was in the A and the M was breaking apart. Do you see what I mean?

For example, not initiating contacts might not work well if you are in the piecing stage. Not initiating or joining into conversations, and not engaging into activities with her......would not be recommended piecing tools.

I will even go as far to say that if you do not fully understand the mental attitude of detaching.........then, it probably makes you appear cold, withdrawn, moody, angry, sullen, and other negative traits you don't want showing when you are piecing.

I think you said something, a few pages ago, about needing to work on your detaching and you were going to do something (can't remember what) to physically detach that day. Considering your previous issues that helped to the breakdown of the MR, I don't know that you should be trying to physically detach. Sure, you need to still GAL and give her some breathing space. You don't want to turn into a clingy H. I believe you can learn to mentally/emotionally detach from things that start working on you and gets your anger stirred up. And, it would help in not wildly swinging from one side of the road to the other.

You need something, like a boxing bag, to wham every day. Maybe it would help relieve some anger. The transition from the place of the H who has a W in an A.......to piecing the marriage back together, must be difficult. She is still in the place where she needs to be transparent. I think the way you communicate your need for her transparency should be in such a way it doesn't sound like a sentencing for her.

Anyway, we can talk more along these lines later. Hope you have a great holiday.

Quick update, I went to the parade, I stopped by the barbecue, talked to some people I know and met some people I didn't know. We hung out and played some pool, had some lunch, then I left her there so I can head over to my buddies party, she's going to head over there a little later. Everything went well.

Have a Happy 4th of July my fellow Americans.

Good move Cnut!
Well done

Sounds lik you handled the situation like a pro! Well done Cnut! Keep us posted on how things go down for the after party (your friends)... Happy 4th!

Ok, so the party was fun, it was at a friends house that I really haven't seen much in the last 8 yrs (other than a night out with gang last weekend). There were a few of my old friends there and new people who had joined the crew (including spouses and kids), so it was a lot of fun to catch up, meet new people and at times really felt like old times.

My W ended up not going, she was exhausted from the parade and the barbecue, so I ended up leaving the party earlier than I would have (stayed about 4 hrs), and went home to hang out with W and S.

I told my W last night that I would like to tell each other 1 thing that we like about how things are going now.

I told W that it really means a lot to me how engaged she is with me, how she texts me to say hello when I'm out and about (or she is) and that I really enjoy taking time to talk to each other without distraction as often as we are (not R talk, just talk).

She replied that she really enjoys that too, and that she really likes that I'm more in control of my emotions. She doesn't feel like I'm going to explode if I hear or see something that I don't like, and that it really makes it easier for her to share with me and feel more comfortable having difficult talks.

I saw her response as a positive. I have really been trying to look inwards for my own happiness, and I do find that external news (good or bad) has had a lot less impact on my emotional state.

Did you read my last post? You were in a hurry when you gave an update about the party, so IDK if you saw it.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I think it would be a mistake to tell her you won't have any part of the FF social activities, when she's made it abundantly clear how important FF is to her. Are you wanting to punish her? That is the way it looks, from the outside. When you are trying to piece the M back together, you need to show each other support.

It wasn't about punishing her, I felt like it was a compromise to myself, I gave into her staying so I felt like supporting mandatory activities but not participating in "extra curricular" activities allowed me to support her but not have to be "happy about it". I now see the flaw in that thinking, I determine my boundaries and consequences, and if she doesn't cross my boundary (which I withdrew) then I need to support her as her H.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

The more you exclude yourself, the more she is seen as a single woman, and the more she will continue going out without inviting her H.

Wonka's statement that I should go and claim her as my W, and what you say here resonated with me. I did enjoy the other times that I was at the station and around the other firefighters, I have gotten to know a few of the firefighters and I want to get to know the rest, make sure they know who I am and who I'm with.. I was allowing my pride to dictate my actions.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

After all that has taken place, you can attend the parade and the FF barbecue. I think it will show her support. Your attendance there makes a statement that you are a couple, and you have not broken up. Don't smother her at the barbecue or try to put on a show of PDA, but do stand by her, socialize, and let her introduce you around. Be sure your male confidence is high on the chart.

I did attend, I did support her, statement made

... I know better than to try and "claim her" by forcing PDA in a situation like the barbecue, but with that said, she would grab my hand as we walked around, came over to me a few times for a hug or wrapped her arms around me while standing around chatting with others. My male confidence was off the chart, I can hold my own in conversations with the FF's and I was very engaged with the joking and bantering going on..

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Not attending her graduation is just plain mean, IMO. She has worked really hard and she is proud of her acomplishment. Not attending will really hurt your MR. It is the OM you want to hurt, so don't take it out on her.

Not going was never a plan, it was an "option" as I considered how I wanted to handle the fact that she was continuing the with the academy (thus contact with OM), not going to graduation was just part of the thought of not supporting it at all, and then the other extreme was to fully support her firefighting(which is what I've decided to do).

Originally Posted By: sandi2

And one more thought on this..........it would be a really bad move, and then tell her you are going to become a FF, too. (Which, I don't think your heart is in the job, or even if it's a good idea since you already have day jobs together). Don't you think it's more just you wanting to be wherever she is b/c of the whole A Issue?

um, I can't really answer that Sandi2. I first mentioned it before I knew anything about an A, but I think it was prompted by feeling like I was losing her and wanting to do it with her. Later, the idea of joining was definitely spearheaded by being able to keep an eye on things. But if this is really something she is passionate about, and want's to do for a long time, I really think it is something that could bond us. It's no good if we are planning on going out to dinner, or at dinner, and she gets a call and has to leave me and go on call. But if we are both going, both serving our city and doing something we enjoy (I do think I'd enjoy it after seeing everything I have) together, it seems like it could be a good thing. But I don't need to decide now, it's a long way away.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

There is that thing in you that wants to punish her, and I think it gets in the way of you making right decisions. I want to make a statement about where you are on the DB path. If you are piecing, you don't necessarily apply the same actions you were doing when she was in the A and the M was breaking apart. Do you see what I mean?
For example, not initiating contacts might not work well if you are in the piecing stage. Not initiating or joining into conversations, and not engaging into activities with her......would not be recommended piecing tools.

Not going to lie, it was hard to transition back into being open to communication (both starting and responding) when we started piecing.. I mean the hurt was still there, we still weren't "Happy" together, and it took me so long to detach just a little that I was hesitant to revert back being supportive and open. I do see what you mean and I am (and have been) there, I am not stand offish, I am not just cordial but engaging, I don't try and limit communication.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I will even go as far to say that if you do not fully understand the mental attitude of detaching.........then, it probably makes you appear cold, withdrawn, moody, angry, sullen, and other negative traits you don't want showing when you are piecing.

I am no pro, not going to say I'm detached, or even close... I will say that my attempts at detaching have nothing to do with her, I do not change the way I act with her, I simply feel myself processing information differently. I no longer have this uncontrollable urge to "discuss" my feelings to something that happens, I can just keep going in the present. That's not to say I wont discuss it later if I feel it warrants it, I'm just saying that I don't feel controlled by things I see anymore.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I think you said something, a few pages ago, about needing to work on your detaching and you were going to do something (can't remember what) to physically detach that day. Considering your previous issues that helped to the breakdown of the MR, I don't know that you should be trying to physically detach. Sure, you need to still GAL and give her some breathing space. You don't want to turn into a clingy H. I believe you can learn to mentally/emotionally detach from things that start working on you and gets your anger stirred up. And, it would help in not wildly swinging from one side of the road to the other.

Without going back and reading, I think I mentioned physically detaching twice... once when I had decided I wasn't going to initiate snuggling one night because I didn't want it to be the only way I could fall asleep, and another night when I had GAL plans and she ended up being available, but I went anyway. But in general, I am not trying to avoid or physically detach from her, I actually enjoy the time we are spending together, which is much more time than we used to.

I would like to stress that I do not smother her and never really had, only time was during the 1 month after the ILYBNILWY speech, before I knew of A. But with that said, I do take a moment occasionally to hug, touch, or something when I happen to be near her (or passing her). When that happens I make sure to take a moment to connect with her (look deep in her eyes, hold hug just a few seconds longer, whisper how beautiful she is, etc.) and make sure she knows its not just obligatory, but real.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

You need something, like a boxing bag, to wham every day. Maybe it would help relieve some anger. The transition from the place of the H who has a W in an A.......to piecing the marriage back together, must be difficult. She is still in the place where she needs to be transparent. I think the way you communicate your need for her transparency should be in such a way it doesn't sound like a sentencing for her.

Anyway, we can talk more along these lines later. Hope you have a great holiday.

We do have a punching bag at the house (for my son to practice karate) and I do hit it every now and then to release some (rage related)stress, and I also enjoy meditation which I think is actually more effective at releasing stress (non rage related). But I haven't had much stress or anger in the last week (since she wrote me the letter).

I'm in a good place.

Thanks, Coconut. It's really great to hear these responses.

Stole this quote from Natus' thread. Who would a thought that a woman would be so knowledgeable on what it takes to be a man. Thank you Sandi2, there are some gems in here.

Originally Posted By: Natus

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop?

Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

Originally Posted By: Coconut

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

These are good. I'm doing a good job, I think, of attacking many of these right now.

I'm taking charge in the little things. Making the decisions, letting her answer, and then offering another idea if necessary.

Saying how things are from my POV, and not trying to cater.

Not being defensive, but being confident in my choices/actions.

Not looking for approval, just being me.

Ending explanations.

Plenty to work on still obviously, but in 6-7 weeks I already see improvements.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

Stole this quote from Natus' thread. Who would a thought that a woman would be so knowledgeable on what it takes to be a man. Thank you Sandi2, there are some gems in here.

Originally Posted By: Natus

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop?

Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

That all applies UNLESS your wayward wife sends you a heartfelt letter telling you how everything is your fault.

A lot of that information about nice guy syndrome, while having some elements of truth to it, is mostly a lot of bunk. The internet is full up with weak men blaming women, girlfriends, wives and ex's for their inability to define what it means to be a man for themselves. Dr. Glover, in particular, is a narcissist serial cheater who cheated on his first wife only to marry and then divorce his affair partner. Then he wrote book rationalizing and justifying his serial cheating ways as he was just too nice a guy and blaming the women for making him behave so poorly. If only he'd learn to be a man earlier he wouldn't have married them in the first place so it's not his fault. He was the victim of women but now that he's figured out the the secret he's gonna instead just date, have sex with and dump a ton of women making no commitments to anyone (insert PUA - Pick Up Artist content). I, personally, can think of no human LESS qualified to teach, guide and/or explain what it means to be a man or give marriage advice than Dr. Glover. He's basically written a wayward husband playbook not something a real decent man would ever subscribe too. But educating yourself is manly, so read away, just be forewarned before you go buying into it and always remember - As a man, only you can define what being a man means to you.

I do want to apologize for getting emotional on your thread. It just upsets me to see misguided peer advice on these forums when there is clearly sound professional (WMD) advice contrary to it. I, again, quote MWD when she says "no contact means no contact". It doesn't get more black and white than that. It's step one in her book and this forum is supposed to promote her concepts. I understand some posters where there for you in the beginning "when you were so emotional" but those so-called mistakes you made are the reason I'm posting to you at all. Exposure is how I got my wife to end her affair too. I apologized afterwards too, but once the cat is out of the bag it makes carrying on a secret relationship much more difficult. I think it's holding your spouse accountable and therefore it's commendable and the biggest reason you've come this far at all.

That being said, letting her stay volunteering doesn't mean you won't or can't recover. Best practices and best concepts/ideas are just that. They are designed to chart you along to the best odds of recovery. It's your life and you are absolutely free to do what you feel is best in your situation. Some wives respond well to being moderately trusted but to be clear continued contact is a substantial risk. Many might say the affair actually continues if they continue to have any contact whatsoever. There's no way you can or should monitor 24/7 and, I've seen it many times before, just one private conversation between the two of them and they are right back into the secret sneaking around affair. It's so tempting for the two of them to try to check in on the other...."how are you doing?", "are you and your husband recovering", "is he being cruel and punishing", "I miss you", "I tried to leave you alone but the compulsion to see, speak and/or hold you is just too much", "I prayed for the ability to avoid you but God must want us to be together - you are my soulmate". They so easily confuse withdrawal (from any emotional relationship) with passion and longing.

If you intend to continue down this path until, through and maybe past graduation, communication is key. I'd suggest something like (these are just suggestions and thoughts) expressing your discomfort with the job and how important you believe "no contact" really is but caving to her desire to do it anyway ONLY upon some really extreme rules (or really commitments to hold herself accountable).

First - you should reserve the right to revisit the issue later on. Be clear that just because you let her do it now doesn't mean you become a jerk for changing your mind and feelings on the issue later. Doesn't mean you are going to MAKE her quit later either. Just reserve the right to revisit the subject. She's getting what she wants now...so she should be okay with that. To restate, you are not agreeing to forever enduring her continued small but significant contact with OM even if she seemingly follows all the rules.

Second - She agrees never to communicate with him. Unfortunately, this gets tricky in the role of firefighting and you'll have to talk through scenarios but the basic agreement is she will treat him as a non-entity. Even if he approaches her she should say nothing more than "no" because it's easy to explain "I said 'no' and walked away" versus "I don't know exactly what was all said but we talked for about 4 minutes and I told him to leave me alone". 1, 2....4 minutes of conversation is too much. Maybe, since they work together and don't want to draw attention to the situation she has a 5 word limit of "hi, bye, yes, no, ok" and anything more she says requires that she call you immediately and report.

Third - I think you most certainly should volunteer too and until you do she should agree to limit her availability for all the extracurricular stuff that goes on. Many of these units have calendars with events on them well in advance. Either with her knowledge (or if you want to be a little covert) book a trip for the two of you somewhere nice that just happens to conflict with the annual Christmas party or fall parade. Give her a good excuse to miss the event and put it off for another year when you both can be there as volunteers as well as being more recovered and more comfortable.

Fourth - She must be assigned to a different place than OM and not be required or otherwise volunteer to "cover" wherever station or unit OM works in. She'll need to communicate clearly with chief (a meeting would be better including you - but other in writing).

Fifth - No social media with OM or his family

Sixth - No riding together in any vehicle (other than a fire truck - but never just the two of them). Maybe if that's impossible she could simply call you and leave an open voice line with you while it's occurring but really rule 4 should take care of that.

Seventh - No second chances. One blatant violation or hint the affair actually continues she agrees to quit immediately.

Eighth - whatever else you can think of and will think of. Accountability is an evolving concept subject to new rules and adjustments. Essentially she is to have no secret private relationship with him whatsoever.

Letting her continue to keep some contact is a big risk. You really should address that risk with her and PARTNER with her to protect your marriage and family from ALL risks (OM & the other men in the firehouse). Accountability is not about controlling the other person. Instead it's about allowing the other person to help you protect yourself and keep your commitments. It doesn't mean being perfect either. She could end up treating as a non-entity and then he goes off on her upset in front of the whole firehouse and she'll feel the need to respond or make a mistake and talk to him privately. It's not about not messing up but how you handle yourself respectfully afterwards, own your mistake and communicate in an honest immediate manner. No more secrets.

Finally - accountability is a two way street. You can lead by opening up your life to being accountable to her as well. Betrayed spouses are actually the next most likely spouse to cheat. It's healthy for your relationship to both be accountable for your behavior around the opposite sex. Successful marriages do this naturally. It's not something unique to recovered and recovering marriages.

GBD, thanks for your comments, I agree her leaving would be ideal, but not where I'm at. I will certainly keep my eyes open, and we've already discussed her not interacting and telling me whenever any contact is made.

So funny story. W and S were out of the house yesterday, my mom and nieces came over to swim in evening, after the left I got undressed to put my hating suit in wash, and laid down on the couch before getting dressed and accidentally fell asleep. When W and son came home I was sleeping on couch naked and my S freaked out...

When I was growing up, we showered after gym in school, we changed in locker rooms, and we often showered in public restrooms after beach, but that's not the norm for kids anymore... He's never really been around other naked guys so I think he's traumatized... Lol

As for sitch, everything is going well, nothing to report.. She did get a kick from sons reaction last night.

Originally Posted By: Coconut

So funny story. W and S were out of the house yesterday, my mom and nieces came over to swim in evening, after the left I got undressed to put my hating suit in wash, and laid down on the couch before getting dressed and accidentally fell asleep.

I know it's just a typo or autocorrect fail and I do lots and lots of them but I got a good laugh out of you having a "hating suit".

Take care coconut. If you need me, ask Cadet to contact me and remind me to look in on your thread.

Haha this made me laugh. Sounds like you're doing well my friend!

Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs

If you need me, ask Cadet to contact me and remind me to look in on your thread.

Just to be clear the NOTIFY function of the forum is still not working, so I have no special intuitive powers either.

Also please start a new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2689837#Post2689837