Previous threads:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...787#Post2636787http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...479#Post2637479http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...973#Post2653973http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2667741&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2685360&page=1As a brief recap, in October last year, my W told me that she was unhappy and was considering S. It took me a few weeks but I eventually agreed that I needed to work on some issues. I started counseling and asked her to go with me. She all but refused. She came a couple of times but was completely withdrawn and closed off. At the end of December, I discovered that she was having an A with her triathlon coach that began in November. I kicked her out of the house. I THOUGHT we were working on things but in the middle of March, I discovered that the A had restarted towards the end of January. So I filed for D 3 months to the day after BD. I have been DB’ing this whole time and continue to do so today. I worked hard on detachment, 180's and GAL. Everything that I did was for ME and all the changes were genuine. They were NOT done to get my W back. They were done to make me a better person.
When I found the DB book, it immediately spoke to me. I fully committed myself to the process and decided that I would begin the LRT on December 30th. It was only a few hours later that I discovered the A through a voice recorder I had planted in her car.
After serving her with D papers, things began to change dramatically in our lives. OM confessed to his W 4 days later. Maybe because he thought I would expose the A (I did plan to). Over the following week, my W was in complete chaos. OM’s W actually met with my W and forgave her just 3 days after after her H came clean. OM’s W was instrumental in getting my W to start coming out of the fog. She told my W what she needed to do and slowly, the fog started to dissipate. I saw genuine remorse and regret for what she had done.
During April, we started reconnecting and talking about our issues. Hysterical bonding started and really still continues today. We started going on dates together and spent a LOT of time with each other. At the beginning of May, she started living out of our house again and we officially moved her back in towards the end of the month. Even though she had signed a 1 year lease on her house, it only took about 24 hours to find a new renter so that she could get out of the lease. Divorce process has been completely halted.
This has been a ROUGH 2 1/2 months since serving her D papers. We have been getting along really well. Probably more open and honest than we ever have been in our entire relationship. Tears have been shed by both of us on almost a daily basis. We've not shied away from talking about the painful things. We are both going to IC and MC. She has closed her FB account (the primary tool used to communicate with OM and she was living her entire life through FB and other people). Her entire social network and support system used to revolve around OM's group and the athletes that also trained there. She no longer trains with OM's group at his training facility (out of his house), she has gotten rid of all of all training gear with his teams colors and logos. She has a new female trainer but she's not even training to the degree that she used to train (2 - 3 hours per week instead of the 15 - 20 that she was doing). She's canceled most of the races she had scheduled this year and right now, the only thing on the table is the NYC marathon in November. When she does train, most of the time I am with her. I am NOT a triathlete but I can participate. We run a 5K race together every week. I got up at 4am and did a track workout with her and her new coach this morning. I've biked and swam with her. I've purchased her an expensive computerized bike trainer system to use in our home since she no longer has access to that kind of equipment that OM facilities has.
I have an iPod Touch with all of her phone credentials so that I can see text messages and emails anytime I want.
On the surface, everything is going great. Better than could ever be expected. My W is remorseful and doing what is needed to repair the damage. But I am still damaged. The pain is still there. I wonder if I will ever be able to fully trust my W again. Will this pain ever go away? Can we ever get to a place where we are just living in the present and enjoying our lives together without the painful past hanging over our heads. Can I let go of the resentment and anger? I worry that I let my W back too easily. Should I have made her work harder? Should I have made her feel that she had lost me for good? Did I do enough to make her see the repercussions of her actions?
Last night, my W told me that she is blown away and amazed at the changes I've made in my life. She did see those changes while we were separated but refused to accept them. She honestly felt that I was incapable of change and that anything I was doing wasn't genuine or permanent.
She now sees that I stood and fought for our M. She sees that I did that when she didn't deserve that from me. She told me that she thinks on some level, she needed to see that I would fight for her because she had given up on me. She thought I didn't love her anymore.
It doesn't excuse her behavior and her decision to have an A, but I wasn't there for her. She was lonely. She wanted to feel love and appreciation. She wanted to feel valued. She didn't have that from me. I've realized that and recognize my role in the downfall of our R.
Hi Lim
I always keep up with your thread and just wanted to say that it was so apparent from day 1 just how "spiritually" mature you are. It takes a very strong and humble person to be able to put aside their own sense of ego and pride to do what needs to be done to salvage a marriage in which there has been infidelity. Your children and your wife are truly lucky to have you as a family leader. I am just so amazed that there are people out there with your character and strength. You serve as a great example.
I don't think you should ever question your actions as it seems to have worked out as it was meant to. I am sorry that you are experiencing anger and resentment. How could you not and still be human? But you did make the conscious decision to forgive. That comes with risk as does everything though.
Best of luck
J.
Hi LiM,
Curious - what ultimately drove you to file for D so quickly? do you think it helped "spur" W back into the marriage as a wake up call? I'm surprised how quickly you filed, everything I've read says wait 90 days (minimum) before making and drastic moves upon affair discovery.
I've thought of filing for D, but in all sincerity it is either so I can personally move on (which I'm not ready yet for) or as a means to let W know that I won't accept the A and hopefully wake her up. D goes against my faith though so I just can't see myself doing it.
Hey LiM, thanks for the update. I think your story, and your W's reactions are something that would be more common if people took the proper steps in DBing. Of course, while you detach, and stop tending to your W's every need, she's going to feel alone, abandoned, and like you don't care about her anymore. After all, why wouldn't the person who loves her so much, chase after her to the end of the world and back? That's how it works in the movies, right?
...right, and hollywood values do not exist in smalltown, usa. A lot of people confuse "fighting/standing for my M" with "I'll do anything to save my M", even if it means becoming a doormat for your WAS to stomp all over you to prove how much pain you'll endeavor to show your WAS how much they truly mean to you. It takes are real person, with real values and understanding, to understand what's happened, come up with a plan, put your foot down, and stick to that plan without changing it for emotional reasons, only tweaking it for logical reasoning.
I'm sorry you're now suffering from being 'unsure' in how quickly you accepted your W back into your life. From your posts (I don't know your W), but it seems like she is truly regretful of her actions, and she knows that you won't stand for such things in the future. I think you're fine, but a tight leash 'goes a long way' (it doesn't really), but the boundaries you've set, and need to set, become of grand importance in figuring out where this R is heading... to greener pastures? or to the same old routines that led her astray...
Hi LiM, I'm glad to hear you and your W have reached this stage. People always say that piecing is tough - particularly after infidelity.
I've read that info on the Dear Peggy website may be helpful and also, are you guys planning to go to MC together? I think it's critical to consider that as it's hard to be feeling all that you do and presumably similar for her. Those feelings need to be processed somehow.
It is early days, but it sounds as though she has done what you have asked and you have the assurances of transparency etc. All that is good.
Do keep posting and working through everything - you've come a long way already. I do think having a robust (non-scared) response to infidelity is no bad thing. Many posters are understandably fearful about losing the R and struggle to make a strong response - so well done to you.
Take care xx
I don't think you should ever question your actions as it seems to have worked out as it was meant to. I am sorry that you are experiencing anger and resentment. How could you not and still be human? But you did make the conscious decision to forgive. That comes with risk as does everything though.
J.
There are so many things I could have done differently that, in the moment, would have made me feel better. It would have felt really good to scorch the earth with my anger. But I always knew that I wanted my M back. So I followed the process as best I could and, at least for me, it worked just like it is supposed to. Thank you for your kind support.
I don't think you should ever question your actions as it seems to have worked out as it was meant to. I am sorry that you are experiencing anger and resentment. How could you not and still be human? But you did make the conscious decision to forgive. That comes with risk as does everything though.
J.
There are so many things I could have done differently that, in the moment, would have made me feel better. It would have felt really good to scorch the earth with my anger. But I always knew that I wanted my M back. So I followed the process as best I could and, at least for me, it worked just like it is supposed to. Thank you for your kind support.
That's how I'm trying to handle things. There's much anger/resentment/whatever to be let out if I allow it. But I'm working toward an ultimate goal of being a better person, and (secondary) with any luck, an awesome M to my W.
I've read up on most of your story and its great seeing positive results to DB. Just continue to work and be a better you.
Curious - what ultimately drove you to file for D so quickly? do you think it helped "spur" W back into the marriage as a wake up call? I'm surprised how quickly you filed, everything I've read says wait 90 days (minimum) before making and drastic moves upon affair discovery.
I didn't file right away. When I discovered the A with the voice recorder in December, I kicked her out of the house. Then, I THOUGHT we were both working on ourselves so that we could then work on our M. But in the middle of March, I found out (by accessing her FB account) that the A was very much still alive. It restarted towards the end up January.
For me, I was unwilling to stay in a M where that was going on. If that was the life she wanted for herself, then she could have it but she could also not have me so I was ready to move on with my life. I really so no future for us at that point so I was done.
I see a lot of people, probably the majority, are willing to wait out the A. I wasn't. The A's almost always crash and burn but I wasn't willing to wait on that.
As it turns out, I think my filing for D was the catalyst that began to tear down the walls. OM probably knew that I would be telling his W about the A and so he decided to do it first. He essentially dumped my W by doing that because he was never going to leave his W. My W didn't immediately turn around and coming running back to me. She was initially still very much in the fog and holding on to her rebellion, resentment and anger. It took the words of OM's W to my W to get her to start seeing the lies she had been holding on to and that is what got her to start coming out of the fog. Even then, it was slow. On the first day we spoke after I served her papers (6 days later and 3 days after OM confessed to his W), my W actually asked me if I thought I'd be ok with her eventually going back over to his house to train as began starting the process of reconciling. And that answer was of course "NO!" After that, I knew that I would still be getting divorced. But it was after that, that OM and his W spoke with my W and that conversation is what allowed the fog to begin to clear. They essentially told her "Go back to your husband. Do whatever it takes." And she took those words to heart and began to do that. Only then did I begin to see the remorse.
Of course, while you detach, and stop tending to your W's every need, she's going to feel alone, abandoned, and like you don't care about her anymore. After all, why wouldn't the person who loves her so much, chase after her to the end of the world and back? That's how it works in the movies, right?
She's told me that she felt VERY alone during all of this. She was only with OM about 5 times between January and March. The rest of the time, she was very much alone sitting in her house all by herself. Usually drinking.
She wondered why I wasn't pursuing her. She was angry that I wasn't. She was angry at my GAL and the 180's I was making. She was angry that I went to NY without her (originally planned as a bday trip for her). I didn't want to go to NY and I was miserable the whole time I was there by myself but I knew I had to go. I had to show her that I was moving on with my life without her.
Things would NOT have gone as well if I had not done the work I was supposed to be doing: Detach, 180 and GAL. For anyone reading this, it is imperative that you do these things. Do them for yourself. Do them to make YOU a better person. And be genuine in the changes you make.
I've read that info on the Dear Peggy website may be helpful and also, are you guys planning to go to MC together? I think it's critical to consider that as it's hard to be feeling all that you do and presumably similar for her. Those feelings need to be processed somehow.
It is early days, but it sounds as though she has done what you have asked and you have the assurances of transparency etc.
We are both going to IC and MC and I think we both will for the foreseeable future. I agree that its imperative that we do. The pain and anguish don't go away just because she's sorry for what she did. Its up to me to learn to overcome that and I know I need help with it.
She readily agreed to the transparency plan and she read a couple of book I gave her that were basically "How to help your spouse recover from your A." When I read those books, I felt that I could recover if she was willing to do those things. She knows I read her text messages and she has never given me grief about it. If there is anything that bothers me, I discuss it with her. She has on occasion continued to text with OM's W. I'm not really cool with that. I don't want them in our lives to any degree at all. The texts from OM's W are generally encouraging and forgiving although there are some that have been hurtful. My W told me yesterday that if OM's W contacted her again that she would reinforce that boundary that she should not be texting her. OM's W has some weird belief that we can "all heal together." I say No Thanks to that. I want nothing to do with them. I wish the best for them and in time, I may be able to find forgiveness for his role in all of this. But I never want anything to do with them.
Curious - what ultimately drove you to file for D so quickly? do you think it helped "spur" W back into the marriage as a wake up call? I'm surprised how quickly you filed, everything I've read says wait 90 days (minimum) before making and drastic moves upon affair discovery.
I didn't file right away. When I discovered the A with the voice recorder in December, I kicked her out of the house. Then, I THOUGHT we were both working on ourselves so that we could then work on our M. But in the middle of March, I found out (by accessing her FB account) that the A was very much still alive. It restarted towards the end up January.
For me, I was unwilling to stay in a M where that was going on. If that was the life she wanted for herself, then she could have it but she could also not have me so I was ready to move on with my life. I really so no future for us at that point so I was done.
I see a lot of people, probably the majority, are willing to wait out the A. I wasn't. The A's almost always crash and burn but I wasn't willing to wait on that.
As it turns out, I think my filing for D was the catalyst that began to tear down the walls. OM probably knew that I would be telling his W about the A and so he decided to do it first. He essentially dumped my W by doing that because he was never going to leave his W. My W didn't immediately turn around and coming running back to me. She was initially still very much in the fog and holding on to her rebellion, resentment and anger. It took the words of OM's W to my W to get her to start seeing the lies she had been holding on to and that is what got her to start coming out of the fog. Even then, it was slow. On the first day we spoke after I served her papers (6 days later and 3 days after OM confessed to his W), my W actually asked me if I thought I'd be ok with her eventually going back over to his house to train as began starting the process of reconciling. And that answer was of course "NO!" After that, I knew that I would still be getting divorced. But it was after that, that OM and his W spoke with my W and that conversation is what allowed the fog to begin to clear. They essentially told her "Go back to your husband. Do whatever it takes." And she took those words to heart and began to do that. Only then did I begin to see the remorse.
Thanks in my case OM left his W last fall so if I filed she could well go running to him. She says she doesn't want a D and I can file if I like. I think this she knows deep down this is a fling and she's trying to enjoy it as long as both I and he allow it.
Hi Pac,
Everyone has to decide whats best in their particular situation. For me, I KNEW OM wouldn't leave his W. I knew there would be a risk that he would be kicked out of his house if his W knew. Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't get kicked out. If he did, he might have gone to stay with my W but I also knew that wouldn't have lasted long.
I wish I could offer you some advice. Your W seems to be cake eating a little. She says she doest want a D but is going to continue her A anyways. If I were you (warning: 2x4 coming) I would grow a pair and stand up for yourself. You don't deserve to be treated this way. You can of course wait it out and see if she comes back. If I were you, I would file. It doesn't mean you have to go through with the divorce but it lets her know you mean business. If you have done all the other things you should have been doing (GAL and 180) then you are coming across as a strong, confident, independent man (THIS is attractive). It could be what is needed to shake things up. But it could also backfire on you. Only do it if you are ready to move on with your life without her.
Our marriage counselor tasked my wife and I with writing out our own definition of forgiveness. I decided to tap my inner artistic self and wrote a poem. If you have any thoughts on what forgiveness is to you, I'd like to hear it.
Here is my poem:
Forgiveness is CHOOSING Love over Anger
Forgiveness is CHOOSING acceptance over resentment
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to let go of the past and embracing the promise of the future
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to let go of the hurt so that you may replace it with peace
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to diminish the negative and emphasize the positive
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to be humble and let go of pride
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to rise above the pain while recognizing its right to exist
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to be strong in spite of your weaknesses
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to let go of disappointment and accepting life will never be perfect
Forgiveness is CHOOSING to live your life on your terms despite what has been done to you
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself
Forgiveness is a CHOICE
I think your story is full of things that can give others here hope. I know it did for me.
I like your poem. We have spoken a bit of forgivness. I also believe love is a choice.
Is forgiveness a gift for yourself or to your wife? To some degree believe it's both. She seeks forgiveness, it's your choice to give it to her or not.
Good poem though!
To me forgiveness is knowing what has occurred, accepting it and not holding on to the hurt it has caused, allowing the future moving past it will bring.
Don't let yesterday's pain ruin today's promise.
Thanks for your continued updates, LiM.
I've been following LiM's thread and his situation is similar to mine, with a few exceptions.
My biggest mistakes in hindsight were also letting my W back too soon. She was struggling on her own for 2 weeks, and I was missing her terribly, so I let her come back home. She asked to come back home, since she made the efforts to make IC and MC appointments. When she was home, that first month was a disaster, she left many times and called places to get an apartment. She wanted to stay with her dad. She wanted to stay with a friend. We should've been apart longer. We did nothing but fight and argue. She couldn't afford an apartment and moving with friends or her father would've placed her pretty far away from work.
The other mistake I made was not telling OM's W and my W's boss. The affair happened at work and had I told them, one or both would've likely been fired. They still work together, and my W assures me they rarely talk at work. She says she realizes the huge psychological mess she caused to everyone (me, our kids, our immediate family) and would never dare to risk something like this ever again. The consequences are too drastic.
When I first found out, she became suicidal and locked herself in a hotel room for a week, drinking heavily and crying non stop. Would she really commit suicide? I did find a journal of hers that says she thanks God I stopped her - but I believe she left the journal out for me to see, so I'm not sure of what kind of drama she was conjuring up.
The good news on my end: My W is completely remorseful and accepts her part in the marriage breakdown. Like LiM, I blame myself for my part in it as well, because last year we became so disconnected and verbally abusive to each other, its a surprise we didn't divorce. I opted to shut myself down and ignore her, she opted to screw around. I have no sympathy for that behavior, however. I exploded at her in MC one time, telling her she should've come to me or a counselor before she got physical with the guy. She said she was too afraid. She thought she could compartmentalize everything, and she did, until I busted her on Valentines day this year. She says she's glad she got caught because who knows what could've happened had she NOT been caught. The MC says the fact she was busted was a good thing for both of us because now we are talking like never before (except for the affair, we can only discuss it in front of MC) and it was a wake up call for the both of us.
My W looks at me with love now. I've been in IC and have improved and made myself incredibly attractive to her once again, like when we first were dating. I've been going to the gym 6 days a week and lost 20 lbs, and gained a pretty decent frame on me now. People that haven't seen me are shocked at the physical change in me. Especially the wife, who is crazy about me now.
The problem is: I now have the marriage I've dreamed of. These last 5 years were a disaster of us fighting, drinking and just accepting this is how it's going to be. We're getting along, she posts lovey stuff about me on FB every day, and we're trying to heal. However, I have these terrible mental movies that are short of torturous. My W is supportive, and when I tell her about them, she assures me that didn't happen and my "mind movies" are worse than the actual event. She admits to several emotional affairs in the past, but always was been able to stop them before they got physical.
When times like this hit, I start getting scared, wondering if I'm now swinging up out of that hysterical bonding stage. I wonder if maybe we should take a break again. I wonder if I should tell OM's wife, even though its 4 months post BD. I wonder if I'm becoming SO strong, that I don't need her. Like Bluwave once said, its ok to not need that person anymore, but still want them. But what if I don't want her?
She entered a fitness competition this weekend and I was her coach throughout all her training. She took 5th place in an event and readily admits she couldn't have done it without me. She was on stage, proudly beaming, holding her trophy, while everyone around me was congratulating me on how beautiful she was and how great a couple we are now. And for a fleeting second, I saw her on stage and thought, "she's damaged goods to me now". I couldn't be happy for her, but I acted the role of the good husband.
Is it because she's still working with OM? I know if I brought it up, she would quit for me. But that would only be a part of it, another thing would bother me, and another, then another...at what point does it stop?
And yet, last week, we had a good time together and I really believed we were going to be one of those success stories. Maybe we will. Our MC says my emotions are to be expected and probably won't settle down for at least a year, but am I patient enough to wait it out a year? A friend of mine who had an affair, and successfully reconciled, told me that the first year is bad, but now (5 years later) his marriage has never been stronger. That is my goal, but getting there may truly suck.
When times like this hit, I start getting scared, wondering if I'm now swinging up out of that hysterical bonding stage. I wonder if maybe we should take a break again. I wonder if I should tell OM's wife, even though its 4 months post BD. I wonder if I'm becoming SO strong, that I don't need her. Like Bluwave once said, its ok to not need that person anymore, but still want them. But what if I don't want her?
Storm,
You said it was a mistake not to tell the OM's W. It may or may not have been. You have to consider that you are now at a place where you W is home, she is remorseful, she is in love with you and you have the potential for a long, fulfilling life together. The choices you made (including
not telling OM's W) led you to this place. So was it a mistake?
I definitely understand the desire behind wanting to expose it. But I think that desire comes from a place of seeking revenge. A place of wanting to inflict the same pain onto him that was inflicted on to you.
But right now, doing that will have no positive effect on the R with your W. In fact, it could damage the relationship.
It hurts and we want to lash out. We want to hurt those that have hurt us. Its normal to feel this way. But I think you have to let it go.
In time, all of this will just become a memory. And we will not feel either good or bad about it. It will just be there. We still won't want it to be there but it won't have the power over us that it currently does. We just have to give it time. We chose the high road. All M's have problems. Not everyone has an A to deal with their issues. We didn't. Continue to choose the high road.
Wish I would've read this before bedtime last night.
Wife was pretty late from work last night. She wasn't answering texts or phone calls. I HATE calling the direct line at work, but I got worried. Not that I was worried bout anything happening to her like an accident - more like, my imagination started thinking "what if OM was there"? And they were chatting it up?
I do finally call her direct and she answers, saying yes, she got tied up talking to her boss about this competition she was in and she's heading out now. Of course, again, my imagination just doesn't believe it. She comes home, I'm quiet, she wants to know what's wrong, and I tell her I just didn't feel right about tonight.
Immediately, she got defensive and wanted to know where this was coming from, we've been close these last 2 weeks, no arguments, nothing. Sex nearly every day. Going on vacation next week. Started saying she can't stay with me if I'm going to keep on not trusting her, and I'm pushing her away. This, of course, sent MY radar up sky high, wondering why SHE'S becoming so defensive, and we went at it. I said "A simple hug and reassurance would've gone really far", and she snapped back, "how much damn reassurance do you want, we facetime every day, we have sex every night, we have never been closer in our 30 years together....give me ONE instance where I've given you a reason to not trust me anymore..."
Any kind of rationalization went out the window. I told her, "Trust doesn't magically happen overnight. Even our MC said this will take a minimum of a year to start healing, and we're only at 4 months, you said in MC you are in it for the long run...right?" Then the long pause on her end.....which didn't sit too well with me.
Her anger was that this came out of nowhere. She hates that I spring this on her, especially when we've had a good few weeks. Meanwhile, if the roles were reversed, you'd be damn sure I'd be trying to comfort her as much as possible.
I just don't get it.....
You handled yourself well during the encounter Storm. My radar would have gone off too.
Our former WW's simply can't understand how long it will take us to recover from this. If you go to Amazon and search for "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" a book will come up. I found this book valuable and my W read it. I would recommend getting it so that both of you can read it. You should read it first. Highlight anything in it that speaks to you. Then let her read it. If you present this from a place of hurt and trying to heal (and not out of anger) she should be receptive.
I think all is ok but I would certainly keep my eyes peeled for anything else that raises red flags.
I may run that by the MC. We had an appointment this week that we cancelled due to the expense before going away on vacation, but I may see if we should go before vacation.
I dunno, LiM. I had a nice long drive to work and we wound up doing some facetime, but the kids were in the car and she was very one-word answer to everything. Like she didn't even want to talk.
My imagination started going full speed, thinking she is just using this argument to end the marriage. Her mentality being, "hey, I tried, but he keeps bringing it up and I couldn't live like that for the rest of our marriage" - justifying it in her head and to her friends/family. Its just so inane, this worry I had has exploded into something marriage ending.
But this has happened before and within a few days, we were back on track. I kept telling her that this is a rollercoaster and we have to ride it out. Quite the contrary, we've had more good days than bad. The good days are GREAT, too - and she sees it - but she doesn't like the bad days. I'm used to them, she's not, and when they happen, she doesn't like them.
Her IC has told her to "wallow in the pain, feel it", and she does, and she does NOT like it. Believe me, I've had my fair share of feeling it, too, and I don't like it, either - but I know its an essential part of recovery.
I'm just afraid that her mentality now is, "if I gotta go thru this once a month, its not worth it".
We too have been having more good than bad. Its good days vs bad minutes. There is not much more I could ask for but its still so hard and painful.
My W is remorseful and she has expressed that multiple times. But most of the time that I express my hurt to her, she inevitably comes back with a "Ya, but......." comment that I take as not wanting to fully own her actions. That's hard for me. But I know that even Sandi (the great Saint of this forum) says that it took her 2 years before she fully grasped the impact of what she had done and to fully accept responsibility for it. That's hard and there is nothing I can do to speed that process.
On Sunday evening, I sat down with my W to go over something I had written down to discuss with her. I've tried not to pile too much onto my W at once. I try to spread out our difficult conversations so that we have time to enjoy each other in between and experience the good in our R. I wanted to express my pain and let her know how it hurt me and why it continues to hurt. I explained how the movies play in my mind and how that continues to devastate me. I told her about the things that sometimes pop into my mind when I see her or when we make love. I told her that it hurts because I have to drive by a park I know she was with OM at every time I take my kids to school. It wasn't a long list. It probably just took 3 minutes or so to go through it. I decided to go ahead and do that on Sunday because I knew she had an IC appt the next day and would have the opportunity to discuss with her IC.
But now that I've done that, I feel like I have had the opportunity, over the past 2 1/2 months that we have been piecing, to express everything I needed to say about my feelings, hurt, anger and disappointment. I think I've probably said it all. That means its now time for me to move on and let it go. To do it anymore would mean its no longer about expressing my feeling but instead as a tool to inflict pain and shame onto her. And I can't do that if we are to move forward and heal. Forgiving means I have to let it go. So I'm turning a corner and starting a new chapter. And it hurts knowing that I have to lay that down; that I can't use her actions as a weapon to hurt her. When you are injured, you want to strike back and inflict the same amount of pain that was inflicted onto you. But that is not a recipe for reconciliation. You have to let it go.
Thanks, LiM. I still have great difficulty letting go.
We talked after we got home. My anxiety was pretty bad last night, due to lots of financial stress, the infidelity still weighing on me, and both our kids are now showing signs of being affected by this whole mess. Plus work stress is piling up, we have to save for a vacation, lots on my mind. I had directed a lot of my energy towards my wife's competition, and now that its done, my anxiety started creeping up. So when I called her and wondered why she was so late, she took that as to me not trusting her. Normally, when my anxiety is low, I know she's at work and know the OM isn't there (he only works days). Just something triggered me last night and the what if's started: What if he's there, what if he's trying to move in on her, etc....I tried meditating, tried relaxation, exercise - but I was spooked beyond normal. Then I got very passive-agressive when she got home and that started the argument.
Her concern is will this keep going. She's fully aware of my anxiety issues and has supported me through some dark times, but worries about it causing more distance between us. She had very valid points - having a mental disorder is incredibly difficult to live with - and I made her no promises it will get better. She is worried my anxiety will focus on her, not on usual things such as money, health, etc. Truth be told, I think last night was the first time I was genuinely worried about her slipping back, but the psychological damage she caused to the entire family should be reason enough for her never do it again. The kids are still suffering to this day; the youngest rarely gives her the time of day and still hasn't forgiven her for what she did to "dad". The oldest has screamed at her several times to "cut dad a break, you cheated - its not like you backed the car into a light pole". So my W is also dealing with trying to mend two daughters' relationship with her.
She has IC tomorrow. I think this will help her out, because she always feels good after a session. She hates the pain, hates, hates, hates it. Her IC tells her she needs to feel it. Needs to own it - running away from it only makes it worse. One of my favorite sayings is "the only way out is through". She applies it and hates it because she's never ever felt this kind of emotional distress (only when her mom died, she said, did she ever feel this bad). She hates when I bring up the affair, but rug sweeping only makes it worse. We have to talk about it, because these 2-3 steps back lead to LEAPS forward when we get it out.
But, like you said, there HAS to be a time when we let it go. Or I let it go. She wants it to be now, but she has to understand this is a long process. I actually feel good now that we got some of this out in the open, but she's hesitant because she fears we'll be back to square one again. Sometimes I think this affected her more than me, if that sounds odd.
Thanks for the ear, LiM.
LiM, just stopping by to see how things are going.
I do finally call her direct and she answers, saying yes, she got tied up talking to her boss about this competition she was in and she's heading out now. Of course, again, my imagination just doesn't believe it. She comes home, I'm quiet, she wants to know what's wrong, and I tell her I just didn't feel right about tonight.
Immediately, she got defensive and wanted to know where this was coming from, we've been close these last 2 weeks, no arguments, nothing. Sex nearly every day. Going on vacation next week. Started saying she can't stay with me if I'm going to keep on not trusting her, and I'm pushing her away. This, of course, sent MY radar up sky high, wondering why SHE'S becoming so defensive, and we went at it. I said "A simple hug and reassurance would've gone really far", and she snapped back, "how much damn reassurance do you want, we facetime every day, we have sex every night, we have never been closer in our 30 years together....give me ONE instance where I've given you a reason to not trust me anymore...
I just don't get it.....
Interesting comparison, my W said she hoped I could trust her again one day and until that point, I can check up etc as she has nothing to hide. I'm not saying my W is to be trusted anymore than yours!
However she should expect you to trust her until you are ready to do so, on your timescales not hers!
Alright, back with a recap, update and possibly a request for advice.
Its been right at 6 months since BD (the day I discovered my W's A by putting a voice recorder in her car). Its been 3 months since I found out the A was still going on after I kicked my W out of the house and so I served her with D papers. Everything changed after that and we've been piecing ever since.
W is remorseful and doing what she needs to do to repair the damage from her choices. I also remain committed to all the changes I made during the DB process. I am not the same person anymore. My W comments on it frequently. She can't believe the strength and resolve that I have displayed during this process. She sees and appreciates that I fought for her and our M when she didn't deserve it. I have truly forgiven my W but I struggle daily with the anger and resentment. I know it is something that will take time and am willing to do the work no matter how hard it is.
I've recently realized that I have never been a leader in my home. I've just been a guy that lived there and provided for his family. But I've not been a leader and not been one to set an example. I'm not willing to be that person anymore either. I intend to be a leader and example to my W and two teenage daughters. I will be a man that they will be proud of. And God now plays a role in our family in a way that he never did before.
Today, the OM sent me an email. I haven't read it yet. I will later today. But I did see the first couple of lines and know that he wants to meet with me so that he can apologize in person. There was a time only a few short weeks ago that I would have pounded his face into the ground if I had seen him. I probably wouldn't do that today. I've never been jealous of him. I think he is a pathetic, cowardly man and I feel sorry for his family. I have NOT forgiven him yet. I know that this is something I will eventually need to do. Its something that I will do for myself and I know I need to do it so that my heart will not grow cold and hard. I know that God will want me to forgive. But honestly, I don't need anything from this man. I don't need or want an apology from him. I could care less if he is sorry or even if he was proud of what he did. I simply don't care. His feelings are irrelevant to me. Its completely different with my W but with him, I just don't care.
I'm sure he is very sorry for what he did and it must take a lot of courage to be willing to see me and apologize in person. Can I find healing from this? I'm asking because I just don't know. Is this what I should be doing if I want to set the example as a strong, confident leader of my family? Will my W see my courage and strength if I meet with him? Again, I don't need anything from him. He is irrelevant to me. But if I can find healing from doing this and also have the opportunity to show my W how much capacity I have for love, grace, empathy and forgiveness, then maybe it is something I should do.
LiM,
I don't know if what I have to say will help or not, but I'll try to summarize my dealings with the OM and my reactions and let you decide if there's any value that can gleaned from my experience.
My wife moved out of the house about a month and a half ago (I don't keep track) and after she left, my anger grew by the day. I was angry with her and the OM because of what they'd put me through (the OM was a friend of my WW so I knew him prior to realizing it'd become an EA).
When I saw the OM in a public setting I went toward him and the closer I got the angrier I became. Once I got to him all I think about was beating his @ss. Fortunately there was a cop nearby and I was stopped before I did anything that would land me in the pokey. The reason I'm telling you this is that if you meet with the OM be prepared for the anger to erupt. It's like a switch, so be very careful; you're probably not going to control it if it happens.
After that event I though a lot about what had happened and I talked to my IC as well. Deep down, what I really wanted and needed was for the OM to understand that he could no longer walk all over me without impunity.
I'm glad I did what I did because the OM knows that I'm going to back anything I say. I also know that he won't. I've turned into the bully and I'm just fine with that. That piece of trash deserves to be bullied.
Did that event help me heal? Yes, it did. The fact that I'd walk up to that piece of trash (he's taller and bigger than me) while he's standing with a group of other guys and pick a fight with him gave me a great deal more confidence. It's not that I don't have the physical attributes required to kick his @ss, I do, but I've always been too timid. Not anymore.
Thanks Doodler,
It actually does help.
Before I served my W D papers, and before I knew the A was still going on, I had ordered a pizza from a Pizza Hut and went to pick it up. When I walked in, I looked up at the "Order Status" Board and saw my name and that my order was "ready." Right below my name was OM's W's name and also listed their order as "ready." At the time, his W didn't know about the A. I knew one of them was going to walk through the door at any second and I got out of there as quick as I could because I knew if it was him, an a$$ whooping would have been handed out. I found out later when I told my W the story that it was the OM that went to get their pizzas that day. That was a close call.
Fast forward to today, I still have anger and resentment in my heart but not to the point that I would get physical. OM is taller and beefier than me but honestly, I feel 10 feet tall compared to him. I think I probably could meet with him and completely dominate him with my presence. I do feel strong and powerful ESPECIALLY if being compared to him. I know he is scared of me; he told my W he was worried that I would hurt him. It might make me feel really good to see him cower in front of me but also to hear a heart felt apology and for my W to see my strength and grace all at the same time.
Yep, yep...something about men and fists. Ugh.
Unfortunately, it's now entered in DB lexicon as in "don't go dawgy on the OM." Let me tell you what happened with a DBer who ran into the OM.
The DBer's screenname was Dawgy. Like you, he thought he could handle it if he ran into the OM. Well, the day happened and Dawgy just lost it when he saw the OM. Uncontrollable rage took over all of rational thought and his filter went out the window. Dawgy beat up the OM to a pulp in front of his own W and 18-year old son. Guess what happened? Yup, W got very protective of OM and was completely agahst with Dawgy's violent outburst.
The outcome? She filed for a D and they are now divorced.
Don't do anything stupid even if you pretend with this voice in your head that you can handle it. Bottom line, NOTHING good can come out of meeting with OM.
I think the best answer is silence and non-answer. That alone speaks volumes than meeting with the OM. I have had that experience when a lady texted me wanting to see me and I had zero desire to see her. I simply refused to respond to her emails/texts. She got the message. BOOM! Buh-bye.
Thanks Wonka,
I just now read his email. It simply said "I would like to meet with you and have the opportunity to apologize and ask for forgiveness. Am I open to this?"
Don't waste your time. Not worth it, you are way more of a man than he is. He doesn't deserve your time. You have more important things to do with your life than waste it listening to an apology. He has to live with not knowing whether you forgive him or not. You can forgive but that doesn't mean you have to actually have him hear those words come out of your mouth.
No reply might be the strongest move. He is craving to keep the drama alive. He is a hollow man. Letting him stew in his own pathetic world is the best revenge. It's that or a whooping. Anything in between acknowledges him as someone worthy of your time, and he is not worthy. So, I leave it to you, brush him off like a pathetic little weasel or pound him. Nothing in between.
With my Ws OM our L sent him a Cease and Desist letter telling him to have no further contact with my W or face legal actions against him. Formally put on notice. Since the OM and OMs W continue to want to contact you and your W it may be the only way to be free of these parasites. This may actually be your strongest move. It says f-off in a grand manner. Then both of them have only each other to relive the drama with. Ouch!
My W knows that OM sent me the email. She contacted me about it before I told her. OM's W had sent my W a text telling her that OM was sending me an email. It will be interesting to see if there was a long conversation or if my W simply said "Ok." My W knows that I don't approve of her communicating with his W.
Will need to spend some time thinking and praying over this. I know I owe him nothing. I know its my decision to make and my W's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. But I'm wondering what she will see in me if I refuse to see him. Will she see a cold, bitter, angry, resentful person (I have every right to be all those things)? Or will she see me as a strong, confident, gracious man if I do decide to see him?
Just my humble opinion but this isnt about what your W will think , it's about you
OM isn't worth another thought , end of story
Get on with your life and leave that rubbish behind you
Take care. Rd
Like you i spend way too much time thinking how my W will think.
Listen to rd500. Do you first. Maybe years down the road you can think about it, but now i would suggest asking your wife to remove all contact from both OM and OM's W and maybe you will consider it at your own pace.
So I spoke with my W yesterday and explained that I really didn't have a need to meet with OM in order to receive an apology and heal from the pain. His position is irrelevant to me. I could care less what he thinks about anything. My W wasn't happy about that. I think she probably has grand expectations that we will all heal together and be a testament to the good that can come out of a bad situation. I do NOT think she is doing this to maintain any type of R with him. She is actually very angry with him and disgusted with herself for what happened. She now sees that she was used and disrespected by him. She's just trying to find a Godly way to heal but I see that her thoughts are misguided.
Well, something good happened today. My W had coffee with her good friend and new coach. This person is female, knows the whole situation and also knows OM and his W. Her coach is pseudo business partners with OM. The new coach learned that OM had contacted and was FURIOUS that he contacted me and told my W that. She told my W that he had no business doing that. My W finally heard those words and a little bit more of the fog cleared.
We also learned that OM is now "confessing" his "sins" to some of the other athlete clients. He's not mentioning my W's name but it will be VERY obvious that the other person is my W. This is incredibly hurtful to my W as she has no way to defend herself. We feel like they are doing this just so they can check off the good Christian "check box."
The problem is that my W has set boundaries (dont contact us anymore) but has repeatedly allowed the other couple to cross that boundary and has even crossed it herself by contacting his W. Now, the other couple feels like they can do whatever they want.
I wondering if I need to have a conversation with OM's W to tell her to cut it out or send a cease and desist letter as mvgfwd2 did. Or threaten a lawsuit if my W's reputation is publicly tarnished because of anything they do.
Lim,
I don't know that you can, or should try, to control what the OM and his W do or tell others. I think you and W may be getting caught up in their drama, and should refocus on each other. Have you and W discussed blocking OM and his W phone numbers on your phones? It may be an easy way to cut out any communication directly to you two.
I could block incoming phone calls and text messages. I couldn't stop emails (maybe I could set them up to automatically go to spam). But the thing is that my W would eventually figure it out if I did those things and then be angry. She's got to WANT to stop contact with his W. I don't know how many times she has to get hurt by her/them in order to learn her lesson.
I could set a boundary here and say that this is not permissible but I don't know what the repercussions would be if she broke the boundary. Withdraw love and affection? No. File for D? No.
That's a hard spot to be in, Lim. I agree with the other posters--OM and his W should be out of the picture and there is no reason to give them any of your attention! I would not even acknowledge him reaching out to you. None of it will serve you in healing. This is about your R now, not them. The longer I am in piecing the more I can see that my Hs OW was not about her, but about him needing to run and find a false sense of security in someone else. This is in large part why I am finding forgiveness for him.
And you are correct, you cannot control your W, it needs to come from her. You want her to understand this. The boundary you create for yourself is letting her know that you want nothing to do with either of them, it distracts from the goal of working on your M, and that it hurts you that she is continuing contact. You cannot give her ultimatums, but you can create some distance to protect yourself. It's natural to pull away from someone that is hurting you and her actions are hurting you.
I do think they are all using each other--W and OM to seek forgiveness in an attempt to absolve their guilt, and his W to ensure your W is out of her M. I do not buy into the "being a good Christian equals forgiveness," not at all. Your W can only gain forgiveness by understanding herself and by working on becoming a better person. Their opinion is irrelevant.
Perhaps your W needs a third party or a therapist to help her understand this. She most likely thinks your opinion is emotionally fueled and not rational. Is there someone she can talk to that can help her dissect her need for forgiveness from his W? The more she does this, the more it distracts from her personal growth.
Just my thoughts.
Blu
Cease and Desist will stop them cold. Make it clear that both you and your W demand no further contact from them or face the consequences. If your W has a problem with that then I think you have a much bigger problem that has not been resolved and your sweeping it under the rug hoping it goes away will only fuel it.
Hey LiM... I took a mall hiatus from the forums for a bit and just checking to see how things are going... It seems like yourstory with OM and OM W is still trying to finds ways to linger around...
In regards to this: the email from OM, the 'confessing' of his actions to other clients, etc... I agree heavily with what others have already said. While he may be regretful, he may also be finding any way he can think of to prolong the drama of what has happened. This could be in hopes that he is still holding that door open, regardless of his words to his and your W, and thinks that the more people that find out, know, talk about it, may somehow keep that connection alive for the future.
I think you did the right thing in saying you do not plan to speak with OM about this 'at this time.' Maybe in the future you can, but I wouldn't even consider thinking about that right now. You and your W have enough on your plate as is, while you all need to focus on yourselves, rebuilding, etc... OM and his W should be focusing on themselves. The relationship between the two "couples" is not a priority right now, and while forgiveness does need to happen at some point in the future, that's not what you should be focusing on WITH the other couple involved.
Cut all contact, tell them you will not be responding to anything. If your W is good with this decision, then it should all go as planned, painlessly. If she resists, and continues to communicate with them, then it's time to adjust boundaries from "couple to couple", to "W to couple"...
Stay strong, your story is one that has influenced me quite a bit in these recent weeks. You've been doing what is right for you, you need to keep doing that.
Had a bit of a break through with my W this afternoon. We sat at a bar & grill for a solid 3 hours, if not 4 and talked. We talked about a lot of things but we definitely talked about the most recent issues. She told me "You're right, you're right." To know my W, you would know that is a BIG deal for her to be able to tell me I was "right" about something. Its very clear to me from the things she has said, even today, that she feels an obligation to "fix" their M and what she has done. She is a "fixer." That is what she does. But she does that in lieu of fixing her own problems. She recognizes that and told me it was ok to call her out when she is doing that. This is the reason she feels she needs to keep a R with OM's W. I gently and lovingly reminded her that it is not her responsibility to fix their problems. She has done all that is required; she expressed true remorse to OM's W. Her obligations end at that point because their is nothing else she can do. The damage has been done. It is now up to OM to fix the R with his W. My W's only responsibility is to me and my only responsibility is to her.
I told my W that I don't have a need to be "right" about anything. My only concern is about finding a way forward; finding a way to heal. Who is right and who is wrong is the wrong conversation to be having. We both have our $hit that we are responsible for and each of us is accountable for just those things and only to each other. Everything else is irrelevant.
My W does have an IC and my W told me tonight that her IC said OM's W is "crazy" and that my W shouldn't have anything to do with her. But I guess her sense of obligation to repair the damage she has done out weighted the advice of the professional and the other advice my W has received.
But in my case, I'm seeing that patience is paying off. My W is not a bad person. She's made a horrible mistake. Its been a very painful mistake to have to live with but its one that I am willing to work through so long as my W continues to do what she needs to do. I feel that it is better to let her come into the truth on her own, in her own way and in her own time instead of trying to force MY version of the truth onto her. In the end, I think she will appreciate my strength and patience more as she sees that on her own than if I try to force it on her.
I've recently realized that I have never been a leader in my home. I've just been a guy that lived there and provided for his family. But I've not been a leader and not been one to set an example. I'm not willing to be that person anymore either. I intend to be a leader and example to my W and two teenage daughters. I will be a man that they will be proud of
I absolutely love what you wrote here. I haven't actually seen it discussed on these boards, but it speaks volumes. Leadership is the most difficult of roles and a man that is invested enough in his family to take that role on, is truly a man. I am so impressed. Your wife and children are very lucky. And I too feel sorry for OMs family. Can you discuss more what leadership of a family means to you?
I feel that while a leader should always take into consideration everyone's needs and concerns, he ultimately has to make a decision based on what's best for the family unit. Decisions have to be made regardless of being popular, or appeasing or impressing one particular individual. In order to follow, those must know they can trust that your decisions are made with wisdom and confidence and from a good and loving place. Does meeting with and accepting an apology from OM do anything to meet needs of the family unit?
I agree with you and everyone else in that I too would want OM and OM's wife completely out of my life. I have even read on other marriage advice sites that in cases of affairs, it's advised to actually move away from OP ( not that it's really possible with teenage daughters).
Best of luck to you always.
J.
I had yet another pretty significant breath through with my W last night. After leaving the bar and grill we were at, my W stopped at the store to get some things for our daughters (we were in separate cars). I didn't know she was doing that and wondered why it was taking her so long to get home so I looked up her location. I saw that she was driving by OM's house. We live only about a mile and a half apart. I thought maybe she was going to try and talk to OM's W. But she just drove by and came home. I called her out on it and asked why she did that. She seemed very irritated and angry (not for me calling her out). She said she didn't know why she did it and then made a comment about their yard and how it was so perfect from the outside but she knew nothing was right on the inside.
She then got in the shower and asked me to come in with her. At that point she completely broke down and she began crying in a way that I had never seen before. I saw more despair in her than at any other time through this whole ordeal or even ever. She cried uncontrollably for over 10 minutes. I just stood there and held her. We finally got out of the shower and she was still crying so hard and upset that she couldn't even speak. I laid with her on the bed until she was able to start settling down. She apologized to me again. Told me she was sorry for what she had done. She told me that she now realizes that she can't "fix" their M. She can't fix what she did. The guilt she feels compels her to try and make it right but she now sees that its not her job and even if it was, there is nothing she can do. She admitted that she feels worthless because she can't "fix" other peoples problems. She feels like a failure. She tried to "fix" me our entire R. I had plenty of problems that needed fixing but she was incapable of fixing them and it wasn't her job to do that. It was MY job to fix MY issues. I had to come to that realization on my own and that is what I have done through the DB process.
Last night was an important step for my W. I see that she is still struggling to come to grips with everything. I can push her to the place she needs to be. She's got to get there on her own. All I can do is be the lighthouse.
Can you discuss more what leadership of a family means to you?
JujuB,
I think for me, it means being the lighthouse. It means being physically and emotionally present for my W and D's. It means showing them that I care about their struggles and that I am there to support them through their hardships in whatever way they need me. It means talking to them about my hardships and conflicts and how I handle them. It means showing my family that I treat others with kindness and respect regardless no matter how bad of a day that I'm having. You could probably write a whole book on what it means to be a leader (and I am sure there are books) but to me, I think it boils down to a leader is someone you go to for advice, guidance, help and support. A leader is someone you know you can trust in all things. A leader is someone you choose to follow because you know you can rely on them to always have your back.
Just curious, was there heavy drinking at this bar & grill? tears of guilt and tears of love can be easily confused, even more-so by the one crying that the one being sympathetic.
Was your W the kind of person that was always trying to fix other people's problems before the A? Or is this just something she's feels and obligation towards because she was part of what caused the problem?
Can you discuss more what leadership of a family means to you?
JujuB,
I think for me, it means being the lighthouse. It means being physically and emotionally present for my W and D's. It means showing them that I care about their struggles and that I am there to support them through their hardships in whatever way they need me. It means talking to them about my hardships and conflicts and how I handle them. It means showing my family that I treat others with kindness and respect regardless no matter how bad of a day that I'm having. You could probably write a whole book on what it means to be a leader (and I am sure there are books) but to me, I think it boils down to a leader is someone you go to for advice, guidance, help and support. A leader is someone you know you can trust in all things. A leader is someone you choose to follow because you know you can rely on them to always have your back.
I'm not really a religious person, but in my search for hope in all this, I stumbled across Reb Bradley and familyministries<dot>com. He has an audio program there called "Captains of the Storm" that talks about this topic exactly. It's based around how to be the stronghold leader for your family (vessel), and even though I don't have a "family" to be the leader of at the moment, I'm not a father, etc. The things he talks about are invaluable to any man that wants to better his life and those people who are around him. I'm not advertising, but it's well worth the measly 50 bucks or whatever he wants for a donation.
Just curious, was there heavy drinking at this bar & grill? tears of guilt and tears of love can be easily confused, even more-so by the one crying that the one being sympathetic.
Was your W the kind of person that was always trying to fix other people's problems before the A? Or is this just something she's feels and obligation towards because she was part of what caused the problem?
There was drinking involved but neither of us was wasted. We probably each had 4 beers over the 3-4 hours that we were there. The tears are for a multitude of reason. I cry for the pain I've experienced because of her choices. My W cries not only for what she did to me but also for what she did to another family and even for what she did to herself. She cheapened herself with the A. She gave away her worthiness to someone that wasn't worthy. If I have to be honest, her grief is probably greater than mine and it probably should be if she is a good and decent person that is trying to make amends for what she did. I believe she is a good and decent person.
My W is definitely a "fixer." She's spent her whole life avoiding her own issues and instead tried to fix other peoples problems. She readily admits, and I saw it in the FB exchanges she had with OM, that she actually thought she was HELPING him with is M. That of course is absurd because you can't help a person with their M while you are sleeping with them. But that is what she thought she was doing. The fog was that thick. Even now, she's still struggling with learning that she doesn't have to fix everyone. Yesterday, before all this stuff happened, I spoke with her on the phone and she was still talking about "We need to help them; we need to show them that they aren't healing properly; we need to show them how to do it." (I don't believe OM and his W are getting any kind of professional help). My W is now seeing that we can't help them. There is nothing we can do for them. Its not our job. Its not our duty or obligation. They have to find their own way and that way doesn't include us in any way, shape or form.
It's good your W sees now that she can't help them. Maybe it'd be useful for your 'third party' to help your wife see that if it wasn't her that did what she did to their family, it would've been someone else... I'm glad you and your W are seeming to continue and work things out in a positive way. There, of course, will always be setbacks, but it's important to keep your eye on the prize and know what you're working for... both of you.
Lim, I'm a couple month behind you in my sitch, how do you deal with the issue of trust?
Also I've found it hard to balance the need to talk with the need to have normal life, how have you found this?
I imagine true trust will take a long time to come back. But for now, you have to have a transparency plan. I know where my W is at all times. Its not awkward because I don't have to ask; she just tells me. I can also check her location of her phone. I also have an iPod Touch that has all of her iPhone credentials so I can see all of her text messages and emails. I know my W feels like she has no privacy but she doesn't seem to be resentful of it. On the flip side, she knows where I am at all times, can see my location and I have no problem with her looking at my phone to look at emails or text messages. I've also done things to try and rebuild her trust in me. She knows that I found out about the A because I hid a voice recorder in her car and I recorded her having sex with OM. I had been hanging on to those recordings for all these months. Dont really know why; its not like I listened to them ever again. But she sat next to me on the bed and watched me delete them. That helps her know that she can trust me.
As for talking, you've certainly got to be able to talk through all of the hurtful stuff but that can't be all that you do. If you are able to spend time together and truly enjoy each others company in the midst of all the pain, then I think there is a great deal of hope for your M. Dont make your entire R about confronting the pain of the A every single day. Spend time together. Have fun together. Remember why you fell in love. Dont shy away from working through the painful things but you don't have to do it all in one day. Live life. Be thankful for the good that you have.
Thanks Lim, that's really helpful!
Just to share with someone who is in a similar position is so helpful, I really hope your sitch works out, you seem to be in a good place, I'm just hoping to be in a better position in a couple of months!
My W struggle with the guilt which is good, but I don't want her feeling bad 24/7 as that not going to help us move on to a healthier R!
I can't imagine how you felt listening to that recording, the thought of W having sex with OM is bad enough! You a very strong person, your W is a lucky lady!
Had some more progress with my W this past week after her emotional breakdown. During that process, she told me that she finally recognized that she couldn't "help" the other couple and that I was right about needing to break off contact with OM's W. I was out of town for 2 nights on business and while I was gone, she wrote a short letter to OM's W and told her that neither she nor her husband should contact us either again. It wasn't the most firmly worded letter, and it could have been done by text or email but it did get the job done. Of course, OM's W then responded with a length text about how good God is and how maybe someday we can all be friends, blah, blah. At that point, my W then blocked her on her phone.
I'm glad that I was patient and let my W get to this place on her own. Its much better that it happened this way than if I had tried to force the issue.
Lim
That is great news! I will continue to pray for your family.
JujuB,
I think for me, it means being the lighthouse. It means being physically and emotionally present for my W and D's. It means showing them that I care about their struggles and that I am there to support them through their hardships in whatever way they need me. It means talking to them about my hardships and conflicts and how I handle them. It means showing my family that I treat others with kindness and respect regardless no matter how bad of a day that I'm having. You could probably write a whole book on what it means to be a leader (and I am sure there are books) but to me, I think it boils down to a leader is someone you go to for advice, guidance, help and support. A leader is someone you know you can trust in all things. A leader is someone you choose to follow because you know you can rely on them to always have your back.
Lim, I have always loved reading your posts. You are truly an amazing man. I agree. Communicating with your family, being physically and emotionally present, and following that golden rule are great ways to become a respected leader of your family.
Rather then choosing to be right, you have taken a risk and chose to forgive and I am happy that your wife seems to appreciate it and is working on earning your forgiveness. Once again, she is a very lucky woman and I hope that she too can learn to fix herself instead of looking outward to fix others...
A good lesson for us all.
J.
Hello everyone. I wanted to post an update and ask for some advice and support.
My W and I now are now connecting and communicating on a level we never have in our entire history. Its fantastic. But of course, the hurt is very still much there. Its here to stay for a while.
Over the past week, I've been feeling the need to detach from my W. I've not had the desire to touch or kiss her and the desire to have sex has also wained. I've felt the need to pull away. The emotional struggle that I've been having is that I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if I can ever get over what has happened no matter what my W does to try and make it right. So I told that to her. And of course, that was very upsetting to her. I don't know if this feeling is real or just the standard doubts and fears that run through your mind after something like this. I think the reason I am having these feeling is because of the things my W is saying that she needs to do to heal from this.
My W decided to get back on FB a few days ago (she closed her account for a couple of months). That was hard for her because most of her friends are triathletes and are members of OM's training group. So even though she isn't following that FB group anymore, there is a constant barrage of things related to him and that group that show up in her FB feed. Other athletes are asking her why she hasn't come back to training with the group again. Its been 6 months. At first, the excuse was because she was injured. But clearly, she's not still injured after all this time. And people are asking questions. When she got back on FB, I asked her if she was still "friends" with OM's W. She is. And in fact, spent the day looking at all of OM's W's posts on FB. That's a problem for me and my W agrees that her IC would also say that it was a bad idea for her to be doing that. But she hasn't unfriended OM's W.
My W has also told me that she feels the need to talk to both OM and his W again to "set things straight." OM's W sent my W a text a few months ago that was very painful for my W. OM's W accused my W of trying to portray an underage porn star to OM. My W feels the need to defend herself because she feels that is not what she was doing. But regardless of what she was/wasnt trying to be with OM, there is nothing to defend. What she did is indefensible. OM also sent a painful text around the same time where he told my W that "none of it was real, he was just using her, he was just F'ing her." I believe my W needs to hear him admit that there was more to it than that. She needs to feel that she wasn't "used."
After telling my W yesterday that I don't know if I can "do this", I left and went to a concert w my daughters. I didn't just drop that on her and then walk right out. It was a conversation over a couple of hours.
My W spent the evening crying. She called me at one point crying and saying "What do I need to do? Dont give up on me."
She had blocked OM's W on text message but she unblocked her and started texting w OM's W last night while I was out. They are all "buddy, buddy" talking about healing and forgiveness and love and God. I'm not OK with that and my W knows that.
I think that my W feels that she needs to have some sort of polite relationship with the other couple so that she can go on with her life and show her face in public. She's not going to go train with him anymore but she wants to be able to show up at a racing event and not feel like she has to hide from the world if they accidentally run in to each other. She wants to be in a place where they can politely say hello and not have to run away if they happen to find themselves talking to the same group of people. My W desperately wants me to meet with OM so that he can apologize to me. I don't want or need an apology from him. I don't care what he thinks about anything. She feels that I would feel better if I could "say what I have to say."
It may be that my W really does need to have a reconciliation with the other couple so that she can show her face in public (at race events) in order forgive herself and heal. I just don't see how that is compatible with what I need to heal. I don't see how I can ever be ok with being able to have a polite conversation with them if we run into them somewhere. I don't want to talk to either of them. Ever.
I CAN see how that might be a good thing. Neither me nor my W should have to hide from the world or be afraid to show up at an event just because they might be there. We should be able to talk to whoever we want regardless if they happen to be in the same vicinity or not. I guess I just feel that if I'm ok with being at a place where I can stand with a group of people and carry on a conversation with OM and his W also present in the same group, then I am essentially saying that I am ok with what happened. I'm just afraid that if I'm Ok with this, the next thing I know, OM's W will be inviting us over to their house for a F'ing picnic!
I don't know what I should be ok with. I don't know what I should do about boundaries being crossed (contacting OM's W).
Lim,
Your Ws words and actions don't seem to be matching up. She asks you what she needs to do to make it right, you've told her but she hasn't unfriended OMW and wants you to meet them.
I have a similar scenario in that I am likely to one day run into OM at a firefighter function, I've promised my W I won't rip his head off (I'm much bigger than OM) but other than that I will handle as I see fit, but in no scenario will me and W sit around chatting with OM and his W.
I would tell W that you two can handle running into them when it occurs, as for others in the group she can tell them whatever she wants, that there was an A, or that she no longer talks to OM and doesn't want to, or whatever, but in no world is it ok for her to ask you to sit down over coffee and talk to him.
I feel for you, I fear that your W is starting to miss the excitement of the A, or of her old life with that group, and she needs to decide that she wants u and that means leaving that life in the past.
Lim,
Your Ws words and actions don't seem to be matching up. She asks you what she needs to do to make it right, you've told her but she hasn't unfriended OMW and wants you to meet them.
I have a similar scenario in that I am likely to one day run into OM at a firefighter function, I've promised my W I won't rip his head off (I'm much bigger than OM) but other than that I will handle as I see fit, but in no scenario will me and W sit around chatting with OM and his W.
I feel for you, I fear that your W is starting to miss the excitement of the A, or of her old life with that group, and she needs to decide that she wants u and that means leaving that life in the past.
I think you hit the nail on the head: she says one thing (I want to fix this) and then does something else (talks with OM's W).
I'm a little smaller than OM but I have no doubt that I would throttle him into the ground if I have to see him because I have one thing that he doesn't have: RAGE. In reality, I probably could control myself in a public setting if I were to see him. I'm not stupid. I know the consequences of doing something like that. But I'm not ok with talking with a group of people if he and his W were also in the same group. I think that is what my W wants to be able to happen.
I know my W loves me and wants only me. She's over the A and knows that I am the better option for a million different reason. He has NOTHING to offer her. He is a POS and she knows it. But at the same time, I think she feels a need to know that it was more than just jumping into the sack. She needs to know that he cared for her. That's repulsive to me. And yet I know that it is normal for the WW to feel a sense of loss after an A. Its normal for them to grieve.
The community she involved in is so small that its impossible to not run into them at some point. She wants to be at a place that we can all be in the same vicinity without animosity.
I don't care what she tells other people. That's not my problem.
I want her to be able to heal. I want her to be able to be the incredible athlete that she is and I want to support her in that. I just don't know how to keep them out of our lives if she feels like she needs to maintain a civil relationship wit them.
An example of when we might possibly run into each other occurred last week. My W went to an open water swim at a local lake. I went with her and swam with her and the other athletes that were there (I'm a really good swimmer). This swim was organized by her new female triathlon coach but who is also biz partners with OM. Her new coach knows about the A.
There were about 10 athletes there. I didn't know most of them but I did talk and socialize with almost all of them. Afterwards, I ran a couple of miles with my W.
This week, my W told me that OM has come to these swims recently. He normally never leaves his house to train because he has everything he needs there; including a pool. But now he's showing up at these other training events.
So in this situation, I trying to support my W (and do something healthy for myself), and become more involved with her other friends and support her in the sport she is so passionate about. And now I learn that HE many show up there!?!?!
Her coach can't be worrying about us and whether or not the OM is going to show up. It not her job to police our relationship. OM can show up if he wants. I dont want to be in that situation. That would be horrible for me. And what if I don't go and he and my W are there? Am I supposed to tell my W that she has to leave if he is there? The other athletes would be wondering WTF is going on if my W shows up and then leaves.
I just don't know what to do.
As MWD says in her book.... "No contact mean no contact"
Just one day stalking OM's wife (which is contact because it includes or could include pictures and information about him) and she's off to the races talking and texting with OM's wife and talking about needing closure. This should be a big clue to you both that social media is a bad idea and continuing in that specific sport is probably a bad idea too. (switch to a different league or group - maybe endurance marathons or something - if biking is her strongest then go that route - at least a season or two?)
There is no closure. OM used her as much as and no more than she used OM to get their needs met. They weren't soul mates or a real couple that, were situations different, would or could have ended up together. It's dirty nasty adulterous behavior and whether he was using her or just doing her is irrelevant - because they were both married and shouldn't have been available for it either way.
PLUS - as much as OM's wife seems to participate in these phone calls and texts it's really cruel and abusive for your wife to keep communicating with her. She talks to your wife to keep tabs on her. She's merely "keeping her enemies close" and hoping to make sure your wife stays married to you; and, therefore unavailable for her husband. OM's wife THINKS it's helpful because she has a question mark about what her husband is doing every time he walks out the door so talking and texting your wife feels like it's helping but it's really cruel and prolonging her pain. She should be leaving that woman alone completely. It's almost like a rapist calling his rape victim to make sure she is recovering well, share the details of her "stop raping" counseling and pray for and with her.
I think I posted to you before and suggested MOVING AWAY.
How small is your area? Can you wife simply not go? Is it a sacrifice? Yes, but marriage really should be the #1 priority.
Wow, that's some hard truths Georgia.
I'm not going to move and its not really feasible for me to move. I run a company that I founded and it simply wouldn't work for me to move.
We do live in a very large metropolitan area with millions of people. Its possible that I'm making a bigger deal out of "running into each other" than is realistic. OM has his own training group. He is a coach and he trains athletes. He trains out of his home. My W is very good friends with many of those other athletes that have nothing to do with her A. But she was a BIG part of that group while she was there. Even though she is no longer there and is training elsewhere, there will still be times that we run into them either in person or even online (and she will continue to run into those athletes that still train there). For instance, the main reason my W decided to get back on FB was so that she could order some training gear through BIG CITY Triathlon Club (where "big city" is the name of our town). For some reason, you have to order that stuff through FB. So she gets on FB and low and behold, OM is posting on that group that he actually has nothing to do with.
I can't take away my W's ability to do something she gets so much enjoyment from. Its important for her and its important for me that she find a way to continue to do that. I guess the reality is that there will always be the possibility that we can run into them and we'll just have to deal with that when it happens.
My W doesn't know (but she suspects) that I know she contacted OM's W the other day (and broke the boundary that my W set about OM's W not contacting us anymore). But I will confront her about it. I will tell her in no uncertain terms that it is unacceptable for her to do that.
I know my W is grieving the loss of the A. I understand that is normal but its deplorable to me. It breaks my heart to know that she gave her heart to someone else; to know that she loved someone else. I guess that's my burden to bear.
One minor point: Regarding FB, perhaps you could offer to order anything for her that absolutely has to go through a FB page (so she can disconnect again)?
Why do you keep telling her your boundaries after she repeatedly disrespects them? That seems like a waste of your energy. If it's a real boundary for you then enforce it with an action. More talking will do nothing, and you should know that by now. Remember it hasn't been that long since your inaction enforcing boundaries caused the A to escalate. Your W doesn't respect your words, maybe she never has. So you have a choice to make. Enforce the boundary or shut up and let it go.
I knew I would be hearing from mvgfwd2
To be clear, nothing I did or didn't do resulted in the A escalating. When I discovered the A, I kicked her out of the house. When I discovered it was still going on 3 months later, I filed for D. I laid down a very firm boundary in regards to the A and did not allow it to be crossed. It was only after the A had ended and she was able to show true remorse that I allowed her back.
And honestly, I've actually never laid down a firm boundary with regards to my W contacting OM's W. She certainly knows how I feel about it but I never told her to stop doing it because I wanted her to choose to do it of her own accord. My feeling is that every time my W chooses to do the right thing on her own, the healing will be will be truer for the the both of us. But since she has shown that she can't do this of her own accord, I will now need to make it a firm boundary that comes with consequences if it is broken.
I believe, maybe naively, that my W is just trying to find a way to have closure and at the same time try to continue to make amends to OM's W for what my W did to her. She admitted to me that the reason she didn't unfriend OM's W on FB was because she didn't want to hurt her feelings. What she doesn't understand is that by NOT unfriending her, she's actually continuing to hurt her. Of course, OM's W could choose to unfriend my W and she hasn't done that either. So both of them are getting something out of this continued contact but I know its not good for anyone. I'll have to man up and put a stop to it.
I'm going to share something that probably doesn't get shared much around here. I'm really hoping that Sandi2 will see this and pop in to give me some support and encouragement. I do understand that it is normal for a WW to grieve the end of the A even if they are truly remorseful. This is so hard to know.
A couple of weeks ago, my W told me that she felt the need to meet and confront the other couple about the hurtful text messages they sent to my W a couple of months ago. Realizing that wasn't a good idea, she decided to write a letter expressing herself and then put it away (and not send it). My W sent a copy of that letter to a friend by text message and now I have seen it. This is what it said:
The realization of what I was to you - what you told me in that text - is devastating to me. I guess I have been in denial long enough haven't I? I feel so sick. How could I give in like that? How could I have fallen so hard and felt so strong emotion for a lie?
I didn't lie to you about my feelings, my heart or my soul. I didn't use you as an experiment. I won't twist my truth and lie to save anyone else's feelings. You can't include me in that statement from your test that stated NOTHING was real. For me, it was real. You can't decide for the both of us.
I know walking away was the right thing for us. We wondered why this was happening and we now know it was to eventually strengthen our marriages.
The truth for me is the same as it has always been. Even in my pain, devastation, anger, tears, depression, loneliness and selfishness, it is the same. Even with your pain, fear and cowardly ways, it is the same.
YOU ARE A LIGHT AND A BLESSING.......My life is better because you were part of it.
Ouch. How do I live with that? It absolutely insane that she sees HIM as a blessing. She's completely missing that it is ME that is the blessing; that I fought for our M when she wouldn't.
I really hope Sandi see's this or that someone will point her to it. I don't know if its possible to PM someone on the forum.
Lim, I don't even know what to say, keep in mind that your W didn't intend on you seeing that.. It's almost written artistically, like she was trying to be poetic, wiritting a love tragedy...
As I type this I'm trying to think what I would write "poetically" about an ex girlfriend, someone who was an Important part of my life, even though I wouldn't want to be with them now.. I think it would use a lot of those phrases.
I know it's got to be incredibly hard to read something like that, and I definitely think it's something you need to share with your W that you've seen and get her to express her feelings on what she wrote.. I wouldn't make it the end all, but I am concerned that she is focused on the wrong R, she should be thinking of all your good qualities, the impact you've had on her life, and writing about that. We all have feelings and memories of exes, but we don't bring those to the forefront, we don't write those feelings down when we are building a R, that is a concern.
She may still be grieving the loss of the A, that maybe something for her to explore in IC... I definitely think going back to NC, no Facebook, leave an event if he is there, etc. is warranted.
Why would she write that? IMO to get a positive reaction from OM to validate her feeling that the A was real and a good thing for both of them even though it ended. Especially since OM ended it and not her. She would have continued it if it was possible (and may still harbor thoughts of reviving it).
I'm going to share something that probably doesn't get shared much around here. I'm really hoping that Sandi2 will see this and pop in to give me some support and encouragement. I do understand that it is normal for a WW to grieve the end of the A even if they are truly remorseful. This is so hard to know.
A couple of weeks ago, my W told me that she felt the need to meet and confront the other couple about the hurtful text messages they sent to my W a couple of months ago. Realizing that wasn't a good idea, she decided to write a letter expressing herself and then put it away (and not send it). My W sent a copy of that letter to a friend by text message and now I have seen it. This is what it said:
The realization of what I was to you - what you told me in that text - is devastating to me. I guess I have been in denial long enough haven't I? I feel so sick. How could I give in like that? How could I have fallen so hard and felt so strong emotion for a lie?
I didn't lie to you about my feelings, my heart or my soul. I didn't use you as an experiment. I won't twist my truth and lie to save anyone else's feelings. You can't include me in that statement from your test that stated NOTHING was real. For me, it was real. You can't decide for the both of us.
I know walking away was the right thing for us. We wondered why this was happening and we now know it was to eventually strengthen our marriages.
The truth for me is the same as it has always been. Even in my pain, devastation, anger, tears, depression, loneliness and selfishness, it is the same. Even with your pain, fear and cowardly ways, it is the same.
YOU ARE A LIGHT AND A BLESSING.......My life is better because you were part of it.
Ouch. How do I live with that? It absolutely insane that she sees HIM as a blessing. She's completely missing that it is ME that is the blessing; that I fought for our M when she wouldn't.
I really hope Sandi see's this or that someone will point her to it. I don't know if its possible to PM someone on the forum.
After I exposed my wife and OM in my situation, OM turned around and immediately dumped my wife and acted like it meant nothing to him too. He did that mostly to end it. He kind of felt bad about the whole thing from the get go and it was my wife driving the whole thing. In order to push her away and get her to stop he had to lay it out there like the OM in your situation and it, too, drove my wife crazy.
....I just read her text to my wife and my wife said: "I pray she never sends that text to OM because she'll forever regret it. The OM treated her like a ______ and then called her one. Has she no pride whatsoever?".
Your wife is in withdrawal. She wants and needs to confirm it was real. It wasn't. She won't realize that fully for a long time. That being said, she THINKS her feelings were real and she's desperately trying to hold on to the memories and place substantial value on the experience. Her text is consistent with the thoughts and feelings of many recent wayward wives - who poetically was nostalgia.
As much as it bothers you - if and when you recover - she'll not remember writing it or feeling that way. It will embarrass her. I know it's hurtful to read but your wife is out of her mind right now in withdrawal. The pain of loss makes them say, think, feel the craziest things. You can choose to be mad and upset about it but that really doesn't help a crazy person become sane. I suggest you choose to remain strong and be the lighthouse for her out of such crazy thinking.
BTW - contact feeds and prolongs crazy - which is why MWD says "no contact means no contact" as step one.
Another thing. I was thinking about your situation a little bit today and considered that maybe it would be prudent for you to also ask/tell the OM's wife to kindly butt out of your marriage. Her continued contact with your wife is contributing to your wife being in crazy town and saying/drafting hurtful texts.
Thanks mvg and Georgia,
I came to an incredibly powerful realization last night. I was operating under the assumption that my W was now sane and out of the fog. She's not. Its too soon for me to have expected that. I realized that I am not happy with her thoughts and feeling and I feel the need to make her see the light; I need to make her see the truth; I need to make her see things clearly; I need to make her see things MY way. I realized that I am trying to control her. I realized that I stopped DB'ing. I'm no longer detached. I guess I subconsciously thought it was ok to become reattached since we are piecing but by allowing myself to do that, I've caused myself to become emotionally affected by her thoughts and feelings (which are right now still in crazy land).
And from a faith point of view, I had also begun to try and do God's work. I can't fix my W. I'm not qualified; I don't have the tools. But I realize that I took her back from God so that I could fix her. Its time to hand her back over. I still have plenty of my own issue to work on. Detach, 180 and GAL like I've told to so many other posters.
Georgia, thank you for sharing that text with your W and providing her feedback. I can see a future where my W will look back on all of this and be more ashamed than she is even now. I think she will regret ever writing those words and will wonder what kind of F'd up place she was in to ever think those words held even the slightest hint of truth. My FEAR is that she will for the rest of her life hold on to the A and be thankful that it happened; that she will continue to look at as a blessing. She's basically told me she feels "we had to go through this in order to make our M better" and that is absolute crap. Marriages don't have to go through A's to get better. How could I possibly spend the rest of my life with a woman that truly believes that? I guess I just have to keep telling myself that those are the words of a crazy person and if we continue to do the work we are doing that she will eventually stop being crazy. I know Sandi said it took her 2 years to fully accept and understand what she did in her R.
This afternoon, I will finally lay down a firm NC boundary. This will include not only OM but also his W. My W knows how I feel about contacting his W but I've never actually told her to stop. Today I will and I will make it VERY clear. NC means NC. I will detach and continue to work on ME. I've realized that we probably lament and cry over the A almost EVERY SINGLE DAY. I'm going to stop talking about it. We need a break from it.
Then I'll make sure we are practicing Ephesians 5 in our M. I am to love my W unconditionally; my W is to respect me unconditionally. I am to love unconditionally, even when I don't feel respected.
Be ready for the plea for one last message "for closure" or some other BS excuse. NC means NC. If she wants closure it is to be with you not them.
I came to an incredibly powerful realization last night. I was operating under the assumption that my W was now sane and out of the fog. She's not. Its too soon for me to have expected that. I realized that I am not happy with her thoughts and feeling and I feel the need to make her see the light; I need to make her see the truth; I need to make her see things clearly; I need to make her see things MY way. I realized that I am trying to control her. I realized that I stopped DB'ing. I'm no longer detached. I guess I subconsciously thought it was ok to become reattached since we are piecing but by allowing myself to do that, I've caused myself to become emotionally affected by her thoughts and feelings (which are right now still in crazy land).
Thanks for writing this LiM. My WW just sent a NC email a couple days ago. She says we're rebuilding now, but I don't trust it. I was aware she is not fully out of the fog yet, but I think I definitely had still switched back into trying to interpret her emotions and not being fully detached... was having
expectations about how I wanted her to be acting and when reality wasn't lining up it was affecting me.
Also, just wanted to comment that my WW also has said something eerily similar about the affair ultimately being a good thing.
Georgia,
I've gone back and read your post 4 or 5 times now. Its speaking volumes to me. Thank you for taking the time to share. Its really helped me get my head screwed back on straight.
I am so behind in your situation, and have skimmed over the pages in this thread. I also read GB's last two posts to you, and I agree with what he has said.
One thing I was going to mentioned, even before I read GB's last post, was how you have mentioned a few times about the WW "grieving" over the loss of the A/OM. She is not grieving. She is going through withdrawals.
I also agree about the social media and her contacting the W of the OM. It is her connection to getting as close to a "fix" of her drug as she can, at the moment. Sometimes, the betrayed H may forget that his WW was addicted, and it has to be dealt with just like a drug addiction. The slightest thing can trigger her craving to contact him.
My W sent a copy of that letter to a friend by text message and now I have seen it. This is what it said:
Now I ask you.......why would she send such a letter to a friend that would send it to you? Do not sympathize. Do not validate your WW's feelings that she "expressed" for OM in this letter.
I don't know what all your W agreed to, when you discussed reconciliation, but I am telling you that this contact with the W of OM is bad.......very bad. All contact with either of them must stop now.
Do not let the words in her letter tear you apart. WW's tend to be melodramatic, and she is still trying to get attention.......b/c he hurt her feelings.
I think you need to revise your stipulations to include no social media and no contact with OM and/or his W. Otherwise, this could continue for a very long time. Until she ends all contact, she's standing at square one. She cannot be buddies with his W.
Thank you, thank you for stopping by Sandi. I really needed your input.
I agree, its more withdrawal than grieving. But grieving is a word that I have read in a book.
Her friend didn't send me the text. I have an iPod with all my W's credentials so I can see all text messages, emails and FB posts. She knows I have it and she handed over her passwords. That's how I saw the text.
I'm stuck in an airport today but I intend to FIRMLY address the contact with OM's W when I get home. It stops now. Period. End of story.
She only got back on FB a couple of weeks ago. She has unfriended OM and his W and does not follow his training group. However, there are so many other people in her circle that are also friends with them that if she were to search for their names, photos and content with them would still come up. Should I be demanding that she close her account again?
Ooofffff.
I just logged onto my W's FB page (she willingly gave me her password). She has been back on FB for 7 days. OM's training group page is an open group so anyone can visit the page even if they are not a member of the group. In the past 7 days, she has searched for and visited his page on 5 of those days.
So it seems clear that all social media needs to go.
This makes me angry (remember, I KNOW I'm not detached). I knew she had visited OM's W's page because she told me she did. WHEN I confront her about this (visiting his page) she will just say that she was checking up on the other athletes that are her friends. But that is a lie. She can check on them by visiting their own pages.
What other things should I be thinking about or doing? I've been too easy on her. Its time to come down hard. Should I just give her a stern talking to? Should I tell her we are separating our finances? Should I kick her out of the MBR? Just chill out? Clearly, a big boundary has been crossed. While I didn't lay one down regarding his W, I absolutely did with OM.
Just my 2 cents
Do you still have the D papers laying around? Write down your boundaries and vision of the future together on a separate paper. These are things you need to remain married and heal from this mess. Put the D papers on one side of the table and your boundaries on the other. Ask her to pick which path she wants to take. Explain it's one or the other, no gray area. Save your words. The visual says a lot more. But only do this if you are prepared to go with the D. You might tell her you are going out for a little while and want an answer when you get back. Let her have time to digest your boundary/vision statement.
Laying down boundaries with a foggy wayward wife may prove difficult the way it sounds like you intent to go about it.
Remember - boundaries just are. A fence is just there. The fence doesn't "lay down the boundary" it just wire and posts.
You are NOT controlling her. She's free to do as she pleases; however, if she intends or desires to remain in your company for much longer, she needs to respect your minimal but immovable boundaries. Or not - her choice.
Notice a key phrase - "for much longer"
That's important because it's not really an ultimatum ---- YET. You aren't painting yourself in a corner where if you don't file the divorce and leave her tomorrow you look like a manipulative fool. Instead you make it clear where this is heading if she continues to disrespect your boundaries.
Closure contact happens. The "addiction" is hard to walk away from while she's on a track for what seems like a reasonable thought pattern of "I need to finish this right and THEN I'll be done". She may violate this boundary once or twice more in the future. Doesn't mean you can't recover --- but every time she does is another shot at you and there comes a point where you may just be done.
The point is - you matter. It's not all about her and her feelings.
Hi LiM, I'm sorry for what you are experiencing. What you post reminds me of the worst part of my sitch where XH was pretty much 'out' and I was desperately wanting him to be 'in' and trying to police and control things.
First thing I would say is that it isn't a good dynamic for you to be 'parent' in this situation and monitoring her activity on a frequent basis. I think the fact that you feel the need to do this means that you 'know' she isn't all in right now.
Rather than pushing for her to be 'all in' I think it is better to accept that she is where she is right now and adjust your behaviour. So, rather than trying to 'get' her to do something different (ie: stop looking at his stuff on FB) - do something different yourself based on what you know.
For example - does it work for you to be sharing a marital BR with someone who is still thinking about 'what might have been?' If it doesn't, it's an option for you to say - hey, I know you are still tracking him online - this isn't working for me and so I'm going to do X.
I still think you have a perspective of 'how can I get her to...' And that is a cheeseless tunnel for sure. It does sound as though she is in a place of 'what if' and that means she isn't all in right now. You know that already. This may change, we just don't know - but right now she isn't there. Given that, what works for you right now?
I hope this helps. I'm always conscious that my sitch did end in D, despite my best DBing efforts, but I hope there may be something in here for you. :)x
In some of your long discussions about these issues with your W, has it been explained how the A/OM is an addiction? Social media seems to be an addiction for many people. If so, what was her reaction?
Being informed of how affairs are an addiction (PEAS), helped me to understand how my need to contact OM was not out of love, but craving what the contact could do for me. However, I may have been further down the road, than your W is presently, IDK. If she believes her affair is the love story of the century, she's not going to be receptive to this information. I just wondered if it had been discussed at any point.
Whether she's receptive to how affairs are an addiction, is not the main issue here.. She doesn't have to like it. In fact, she'll probably protest, but she needs to amputate every source that has any connection to the OM and his W. She will probably try to negotiate, especially about social media.
Did she ever agree to do whatever it took to save the M?
Did she ever agree to do whatever it took to save the M?
She never said those words to me and I never said "You must do x, y and z in order to save the marriage." In almost everything, I've told her how things make me feel and about things I would like to see but nothing has ever been a demand. My thought process has always been that I want her to CHOOSE to do what is right. I don't want her in the M if I'm forcing her to do whats right. I only want her if she chooses to do whats right. But she appears incapable of that. I guess I take the blame of not being more firm w her when I took her back.
She knows its an addition. She has a very addictive personality. That same trait is what lead to her all consuming compulsion to race/train and her previous drinking issues.
I DON'T like having to check up on my W. I don't want to have to be reading her text messages and checking her location. And typically I don't. I only do it when I sense something is wrong. And that's when I usually find the mess that she continues to make for herself.
I came home from my 2 day business trip at 2am this morning and sensed something was wrong from what I saw in the house. I sensed she had been drinking. No empty bottles in the trash so I looked in the trunk of her car and found 2 empty six packs. That may not sound like a lot but my W is a little person and she drinks this Cider crap that has a much higher alcohol content than regular beer. That would be like me drinking 8 beers. She was drunk and she was taking care of our kids.
Just now, I grabbed her iPad to look at her search history and saw that she has been googling OM's training group and looking at his Linkedin profile. She was also doing searchs on background check reports on his W. WTF!?!?!??!?!?!?!
So I'm still struggling to figure out the boundary issues. I really like the suggestion the mvgfwd gave about giving her the D papers again (I can print them) and a list of things that she must be willing to agree to. Her choice. She can choose the stack of D papers or she can choose my list. But I'm contrasting the slightly softer approach suggested by Soto and Georgia. I need to have this talk with her this afternoon so if you have any feedback on this, please chime in. I feel my list needs to be:
1. NC: No contact with either of them, via any means, ever again. PERIOD.
2. Deactivate FB account indefinitely
3. No drinking: no drinking alone or socially with anyone but me. The only time she may drink alcohol is when we are at dinner together.
4. No alone trips: No going to any race events either as an athlete or a spectator (to cheer friends) without me. If I can't go or don't want to go, she can't go. She was originally going to race at an event several states away in September. She won't be going as an athlete (because she hasn't been training properly) but was still going to go to cheer on friends (most of whom still train with OM). I can't go and I don't think its proper for her to go alone.
The first 3 items have all been discussed before; just never given as ultimatums. #4 is new. I don't feel this list is oppressive or unreasonable.
Over the past couple of days, I actually got to a place emotionally where I was ok with the drivel she wrote in her unsent "closure" letter to OM. I can detach. I don't expect perfection from her. I understand that she is still very confused, lost and broken and that it will take time to heal. But I now TRULY understand what it means that I can believe NONE of what she says and only half of what she does. I had been holding on to a very tiny shred of trust in her. That is now completely gone. How do you live with someone that you know continues to lie about what they are doing and saying?
That's some hard $h!t.
One more condition I forgot to put in the list:
Cancel her credit cards that I am not joint on: she is using them to buy her alcohol so I won't see the charges in her bank account. We don't need these credit cards. We have a "family" card with more credit limit than we will ever need.
We have a MC appt scheduled for Friday.
LiM,
Thank you for being so open about your situation. I know you're going through yet another difficult time and the ups and downs must be awful for you, but your posts provide good information, and at times, inspiration. I'm sorry you're going through this difficult time.
Is it possible that part of your wife's issue is MLC? She's an athlete, but in her early forties she may be nearing the end of her triathlete career (assuming it's been a career). I was shocked when Chrissie Wellington retired. I can imagine it's difficult to be in a profession where retirement occurs at a relatively young age.
We have a "family" card with more credit limit than we will ever need.
Just keep an eye on it because if you hit your credit limit you will owe an awful lot of money, and
you wont be the first person that has happened to.
Protect your finances.
Hi LiM, I think when it is set out like that it does sound rather oppressive and that would be my concern for you. Of course I'll defer to real experts like Sandi here, but I'll offer my view FWIW.
Prior to getting this list out, is it worth putting the ball in her court? Saying to her - you and I need to talk because how things have been going isn't working for me. I'd like for us to be building trust, but your online activity shows you are tracking OM on XYZ sites. I'm also concerned that you have been drinking heavily and hiding the cans (I think that is a lot to drink by the way...)
I'm willing to give our marriage my best effort. But only if we are both fully committed here. Your recent actions suggest otherwise. If you want us to move forward with D, I won't stand in your way. It's not my choice but I would prefer that to living like this. Have a think about what you want to do here and if you truly want to stay, we can talk about how that could work.
That's JMHO, but I think if you lay the list down as an ultimatum now, it would sound oppressive. To me, that list only really works if she has said she is all in and willing to do what it takes. Then is the time for signing up to the non-negotiables I think.
However, I think if you have the above convo, you actually need to be willing for the D to potentially move forward. The alternative would be stepping back, accepting that you aren't piecing right now and continue with DBing to see how things unfold.
I hope this helps a little LiM and best of luck with whatever you decide
LIM,
If your wife is an active alcoholic then forget my soft approach.
Her first relationship is with alcohol. Until that relationship is severed there is no "working on the marriage".
Substance abuse gets resolved first.
You probably need al anon and professional assistance beyond the scope and/or abilities of this or any internet forum.
I don't view stating boundaries clearly as oppressive in the least. She is free to choose. You are only expressing what choices you are considering for YOU. You state "this is what I need in a marriage if that isn't what you want then this other thing, D, is what I may have to do to live with myself". She has a choice and so do you. There is no oppression. It's actually being as open and truthful with each other as possible. A lot of people do confuse enforcing a boundary with controlling, oppressive actions but they are not at all. If you said "you must do these things" There is no choice, it's a command and much different than saying "this is what I need to stay married and have some respect for myself". Do you see the difference.
I wouldn't call her an alcoholic. I am a health care professional. If I really thought she was, I would be driving her to an inpatient treatment facility and dropping her off myself. However, I will say she is absolutely at risk for becoming one if she doesn't get a handle on her issues. There is a history of substance abuse in her family.
She doesn't drink everyday. But when she does, she drinks too much. And she hides it (or tries to). She drinks because she is hurting and trying to cope.
Thanks mvgfwd, I do see the difference.
She never said those words to me and I never said "You must do x, y and z in order to save the marriage." In almost everything, I've told her how things make me feel and about things I would like to see but nothing has ever been a demand. My thought process has always been that I want her to CHOOSE to do what is right. I don't want her in the M if I'm forcing her to do whats right. I only want her if she chooses to do whats right. But she appears incapable of that. I guess I take the blame of not being more firm w her when I took her back.
You cannot expect her to bounce right back into being the W she use to be, and that is what you have done....I think. Her mindset is not right, and she needs guidance. She needs you to light the way for her. She's not the one here getting the tools.
I am trying to find out if there was any agreement from her about anything you would need from her in order to save the M, or did you just take her back without her doing or saying anything about what would be expected. Did you take her back without any work on her part?
She knows its an addition. She has a very addictive personality. That same trait is what lead to her all consuming compulsion to race/train and her previous drinking issues.
So did you and your W have a plan as to how to work through her addictions, or did you just think you could "trust" her and she would choose to do the right thing?
I DON'T like having to check up on my W. I don't want to have to be reading her text messages and checking her location.
I'm sure you don't, but she is
addicted. You have to be the strong one, and do what is needed to help her. Transparency is as much for her as is it for you. Do you understand why it helps her?
I came home from my 2 day business trip at 2am this morning and sensed something was wrong from what I saw in the house. I sensed she had been drinking.
She may not be able to stay alone while you are gone. At least for a while.
NC: No contact with either of them, via any means, ever again. PERIOD.
If you tell her those words, you had better be ready to back it up. I think she'll test you.
No drinking: no drinking alone or socially with anyone but me. The only time she may drink alcohol is when we are at dinner together.
To me, that sounds as if you are telling her that she is not allowed to get drunk, unless you are drunk, too.
The first 3 items have all been discussed before; just never given as ultimatums. #4 is new. I don't feel this list is oppressive or unreasonable.
I don't think she'll see it the same as you. And, you
do know that boundaries are not quite the same as ultimatums, right? Are you telling her these are ultimatums?
I understand that she is still very confused, lost and broken and that it will take time to heal.
But you didn't want a transparency plan? You didn't like "checking up on your W". You have to deal with this as if she's an addict. She either is....or, she's not. You can't have it both ways.
I had been holding on to a very tiny shred of trust in her. That is now completely gone.
You can't trust her right now. She has to earn your trust, and she
can.....but she has to work for it.
You cannot
trust an addict to just start doing what they should do, then leave them alone to figure out how they will deal with the cravings and temptations. You can't expect them to go back into the mainstream of their old life again without some type of survival plan. That's not being fair to her or yourself, and it's not reality. You are angry right now, and want to bring down the hammer. I don't blame you for that, but if you approach her all hotheaded and demanding....your ultimatums may flop. You need to cool off and think before you speak.
Giving someone an ultimatum is not an automatic "fix it" to the problem. It's just like confronting her about an affair. Confrontation, alone, will not end the affair. So, think carefully before you approach her with any type of "list". Don't take what I am saying as me not agreeing with what she should do.
Trying to get caught up on your sitch and my jaw keeps dropping open. Wow. That letter though. Ouch.
I can't begin to give you good advice because while my sitch is similar in so many ways, it is also quite different. When my H came back, it did not appear that he was "withdrawing," or grieving, or what have you. He was remorseful, ashamed, and wanted to erase it all. It appeared he had wanted to come back all along, but never quite knew how.
So I can't imagine how it would feel to read that letter. That would tear me apart. Perhaps there is a gender difference at play? WW vs WH? Not sure. Do WWs live more in the fantasy and WHs are more running blindly?
What I can say, is that she has a lot of chit to work through here and I am not sure how much you can help her. Instead of feeling the need to create boundaries, ultimatums, make decisions, lay it on the table, etc, I think you should change your focus altogether. Focus on detachment and finding your strength again. You do not need to make any decisions today. As you are experiencing, this is a long process and changes in varying directions over time.
You have already told her how you feel about her contact with them. She knows. So you can keep telling her and give ultimatums, but I am afraid you are spinning your wheels and lessening your power. Maybe it's time to take a big step back from her and focus on you again without any actions or grand proclamations. The distance might be healthy for you. Let her feel that distance too. Not sure she has ever felt the loss of you in all this.
-Blu
Thanks for taking the time to lay it out for me Sandi. It seems I've made some mistakes.
I guess I DID take her back without making her doing any work. I saw her express true remorse, she agreed to a transparency plan (handed over all her passwords) and then I guess I figured we'd start working on things. We're going to MC, we're both reading R books, we're communicating like we never have before. But there was no plan and no expectations laid out to her. I don't know how I missed that. That's an epic blunder.
And I guess I did just expect her to start turning back into a normal, sane person on her own. I assumed that since I felt she was out of the fog that she would just know how to make amends on her own over time. But she clearly has NO survival plan. I see that she is treading water and I'm not quite sure how to help her.
How the hell did I miss this? I fell right into line with the 180's, GAL and detachment but I wasn't prepared for what to do if she did come back.
I did talk to her this afternoon and we got everything out in the open. But there were no lists and no ultimatums. It was done without anger. I told her that I would help her figure this out. I see that she is completely lost right now. She did go to our church this afternoon and spoke with one of the pastors wives and brought up all of the same issues (drinking, contact with OM's W, helping me heal, forgiving herself). The lady she met with has been M for over 40 years but told my W she had repeated A's during her first 15 years of M. I think she will find guidance and support there.
I do not go out and get drunk with my W. I like to have a drink or two sometimes when we go out to dinner. I was just suggesting that maybe I say that should be the only time that is should be ok for her to drink.
Blu, Thanks for chiming in. It became very clear to me that I was not detached and that I did need to take a step back and focus for on me. Thanks for the reminder.
So I'm all ears. Please offer any advice on what I can do to manage this properly going forward. What does a "plan" even look like?
Also, I didn't understand that transparency was also for her. I just assumed that it was for my piece of mind. I'd appreciate an explanation of how that helps her too.
Thx
If she knows you will see what she is doing she is less likely to do something that would upset you and therefore aid with NC and clearing the fog.
If she knows you will see what she is doing she is less likely to do something that would upset you and therefore aid with NC and clearing the fog.
Exactly!
In my case, I was the WW and my H was the one who wasn't here getting the tools. If I had not been on the board, learning about transparency....I doubt I would have just started doing it. However, I was transparent with my H. He didn't ask me, but I had learned the importance.......and, I knew he would be checking my computer activity. If I had not been transparent, it would have been too easy during the withdrawal period to contact OM. So, I am a strong supporter of transparency.
Ok, I understand. Transparency has been the easy part of this. She has willingly given over passwords; I just haven't been good about checking on it. I will make sure I talk with her about it and discuss why its important and then make sure I follow up on it daily.
What other things should I be considering as part of a reconciliation plan? Right now, we are both going to MC and IC. We are reading lots of books on M and R's. We have both read 2 books on recovering from A's and I just received a 3rd. She has been receptive to reading them. We are going to church and she is receiving support and advice from their as well. Our church would be considered a "hospital" church so there are lots of broken people there looking to make a better life for themselves. We can probably throw a rock and hit someone that has been through what we are going through (and worse).
My W's main issue is being able to get the other couple out of her brain. She feels guilty, she feels the need to fix what she did, she's in withdrawal (grieving) from the A and she's pissed because I'm sure she feels like she got the raw end of the deal when OM confessed to his W because my W lost all access to her training community.
If her therapist is worth a pinch of salt, he should be giving her guidance as to how to separate herself from this other couple. She needs solution solving guidance.
I suggest that she not know when you plan to look at her texting. I also suggest you not do it every day.
Don't talk about the other couple all the time with her. Try to have peaceful times at home.
Thanks Sandi,
My W's IC has told her that it is not a good idea to communicate with OM's W and has even gone so far as to tell my W that OM's W is "crazy" based on her behavior. She's been told that "normal people" don't act like this. But for whatever reason, my W hasn't been able to let it go.
After out talk the other day, I told my W that I wanted to avoid having any A talk for at least a couple of weeks. We have talking about the "hurt" almost everyday and we DO need to give it a break. We have good in our lives and a lot to be thankful for. We need to spend sometime enjoying that.
I ordered a third "how to get over the A" book and started to read it but decided to put it away for now. I need something else on my mind for a while.
Looks like I'm about to start a new thread.