14 days of sheer hell, part 7 - DivorceBusting.com

Previous thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678723#Post2678723

Yes Cadet, she is telling me exactly what i want to hear. I will tell her that "I will just watch your actions". That's all.

I guess i'm going to have to be patient and wait years for this to be fixed, i can't see that far, i really can't. But do i have a choice, yes i do. Do i want to take it. No i don't.

As for the house issue, the truth is that if i were selfless to my son, I would not break up what is left of his family unit -more than what his mother has already done. I can achieve my goal of detachment with her in the next room, in my face and even next to me on an aeroplane.

I guess that I am trying to get a reaction from her, to speed up the process by making her make the D or S decision. I do know that both of us don't really have a say about where we will end up...

Everyday is a lesson and everyday i accept the lesson.

DDJ,

I just wanted to foul-up your new [censored] thread with nasty [censored] language because I thought it'd be [censored] fun to be extra [censored] vulgar and I don't have [censored] to say right now. Or maybe I'm just being a [censored] [censored][censored] or maybe I'm just [censored] [censored] doodling using [censored] [censored] vulgar [censored] [censored] [censored] words.

I hope your having a [censored] good day!

Thx for "nothing" doodler. lol

I feel good. I do. Thx to everyone for keeping my ship steered in the right direction. I had a bounce in my step whole day. I will take that forward with me and will get stronger.

Exactly 2 months of this! I don't have regrets, so bring on the next few years! DAMN (is DAMN a curse word).

I think i'm over my 2 hours for the day. Going to add another one... No forum whilst GALing.

So WW came home, I told her that i read her email. She asked what i think about it, I said, "I read your email, that's all".

I also told her that i'm taking D and S off the table. The separate budget and living arrangements remain. She wanted to move back into the MBR "to work on us", but i don't want her in there anymore.

I must remember that OM2 has probably left today for 2 months. Who knows what I have coming my way. Well whatever i choose really.

I was just thinking, should I let her back in to the MBR. Is it too early. Will it help me detach.

I'm liking the sleeping by myself thing really.

But what option will speed up the process... Lol

DDJ, this is how Wonka suggested I respond to my W when she sent me a similar message asking me what I want her to do.

Thank you for your message. It's not that simple. Please understand that trust is broken and you're going have to do a lot more than just words to earn my trust again. Your actions and behavior have been very hurtful for us, the marriage, and our family."

As for moving back in the MBR, I personally would wait on that, wait until you believe she is sorry and is committed to working on u2... If you like being in there alone, just tell her that it's a big step to share the marital bed and I think we should wait a little while and see how things go sharing the house first.

Wait, I just realized she never moved out, so take the sharing house part out... I let my W back in MBR to soon, I wasn't ready, then I almost kicked her out when she committed to work on us, luckily Sandi hit me with a 2X4 and stopped that from happening.

OK, I'm anxious. WW asked if she could join tomorrow night. I said not sure where I'm going. She pulled her face with that cheating smirk and said, it's fine. I'll find somewhere else to go.

I know that I must focus on me but I don't think that I can deal with her cheating with more men. I need to be strong. Can i deal with this for a few years Cadet? I don't think so.

Focus Dustin. Don't hyperventilate.

Not going to let her in. But I like the email idea. Hope she never found this link. Anxious over that too.

DDJ, it comes down to if you truly believe she wants to work on you two and stop her wayward ways... If you truly believe it, then you need to be there for her and help her comeback and stay with you... If you believe it, and she wants to spend time with you, then do it. If you think she's just trying to make sure she's still pulling your strings, then do your thing without her.

I get dizzy trying to keep up with you.

You said you were not focused on saving the M, that it was all about you and protecting your heart. Last night, you practically fought her to keep her out of the MBR.

Today, you are questioning if you should allow her back into the MBR. My gosh, no wonder she plays games.

Look, I have said from the beginning you are still watching her for a reaction.....and you can claim whatever, but it doesn't change the fact you continue switching things around to see how she reacts to the latest thing you have announced.

I think both of you need family therapy. She does not appear very sound in moral conduct, and you are bouncing all over the place. How can you expect her to stand on solid ground when you can't be consistent in your own actions?

Maybe in her childhood she was not taught the high moral standards and values one usually expects from a married woman and mother of a small child, IDK. She continues to say she wants to work on the MR.....but her behavior says otherwise. She wants to have sex all the time, with you or someone else. IMHO, she's definitely seeking something.

My advice is for you to stop playing these games to see how she will react. If you don't want to be M to her (and at one point you said you didn't), then get a divorce. Don't tell you are going to be a bachelor for a year and then see how you feel. Stop trying to punish her and just make a decision and stick to it.

If you do want to be M, then lay down the boundaries to have respect your home and M, and stick to them. (And I don't think you have the boundary concept yet). If she won't comply, then S or D. You are simply prolonging this ugly situation. It sounds to me like she needs a lot of structured environment and behaviors, and she's not getting it from her hyperactive H.

Just please don't make anymore moves today. Don't tell her anything else about what you are going to do. You need to first make a decision and then decide how you plan to go forward with it. What do you really want?

I'm dizzy myself sandi. This anxiety is the same that I felt before I think she first cheated.

I don't want to feel this anymore. In terms of putting my foot down. I will do so tomorrow. I will tell her to comply or I will divorce. As for letting her back in to MBR, it was mainly a joke to try and speed things up. Was not going to.

What I do know, is that all the advice I'm getting is confusing me. Give her freedom, drop her, watch her cheat, focus on yourself. Putting my foot down is the only thing that has had any effect.

As for her moral compass, she comes from a very bad place. Very very bad. Every single family member is wayward. Everyone. I know that I don't have the strength to "save" her and myself. I must choose one.

So, will sleep on it tonight, cry a bit and tomorrow is the day I drop her. Any which way this goes. Emotions or not. I refuse to watch this carnage any more.

Quote:

What I do know, is that all the advice I'm getting is confusing me. Give her freedom, drop her, watch her cheat, focus on yourself. Putting my foot down is the only thing that has had any effect.

You continue to adjust what you are doing based on her responses. If she doesn't respond the way you want, you act differently.

This is very co-dependent, manipulative, and controlling. You are doing it. She is doing it.

We are being consistent with our advice: Let her go, stop trying to control her behavior.

Where some people get confused is they think DBing is nothing more than a strategy of how to behave to get their WAS to return to the marriage. IT IS NOT. DB is a program designed to address OUR HALF of the breakdown of the M to 1) allow an OPPORTUNITY for the relationship to rebuild, and 2) become better people for ourselves if it fails.

If you knew the M was over and there was 0 chance for the future, what would you do? What changes do you think you'd need to make for you? What did you do wrong in the M, and how can you become a better person for you?

I think your first 180 would be to stop trying to control her thoughts, feelings, and behavior. I wouldn't want to live with that, and as long as you continue she won't either. The more you try to control her, even with 'DB methods', the more you push her away.

Where does your need to control come from? What can you do about it?

So I'm not strong enough for my WW, I'm not strong enough to be consistent, I'm not strong enough to fully comprehend this whole mess.

...

Was this in reply to my post? I don't understand what you are saying if it was.

No its not zues... Getting there. Hang in pls.

Well zues, I am fixing myself and am an unbroken man. I will make my own decisions and will be back on Monday with an update.

DDJ, I don't know why your not posting until after wknd, but if your taking a trip have fun. For now, don't talk to your WW about anything, just take a few days to reset and get a begineers mindset, stay focused on you and If she talks to you keep it brief and say that you have a lot to think about. Reset.

Hey Coconut. I never posted for the wknd, as I needed to make my own decisions, taking in everything I have learnt over the two months, about myself and this "process".
I could blab on about my WW and her incongruent actions and words over the past few days, but if i can't believe anything she says and 50% of what she does, it appears pretty pointless.

It's been 2 months and 3 days since BD, and this is what I have gained:

1 - A deepening R with God, one where I control only the things which I can, the rest i give to Him. I never knew Him before this
2 - A deep R with my mother, where I have been open and honest about (almost) everything. If our R was at 30%, it is now at 90%
3 - Friends that I "never knew" that I had, that truly care about me
4 - Extended and close family that have helped me when I was on my worst, cementing relationships that I once took for granted
5 - A better understanding of what it takes to be a better father to my son, making the hard decisions to instil discipline that was sorely lacking, and in turn disciplining myself and my WW
6 - A new found purpose in life, and a better understanding of what we call UBUNTU (pronounced uu-boon-too) which means "humanity towards others".

What i have lost:
1 - A marriage, as I am completing the filing of my D
2 - A WW that is broken, an alcoholic, a liar, a cheat, someone who is now smoking weed with OM2, and someone who decided to not love or care about me a very long time ago.

So, to sum up, I have gained a new life, I am becoming the pheonix I spoke about a few weeks back. I am losing a M, yes, but sometimes when you it appears that things are falling apart, they are actually just falling into place.

I must see what God is telling me, I believe that He is saying, GET OUT, the time is right.

Power to you.

Thx Natus. I feel happiness inside. I used to think that God was something outside of me. I realise that the song "the greatest love of all" is really about finding God inside you. Zues asked me where do my control issues come from, and it's because I thought that I could control everything in my life, especially the things out-of-my-control. I must lose that control and let it go. I am doing it and learning more everyday.

I am sad on the outside, as I am trying to heal my broken heart for unrequited love. I was thinking this morning about whether or not my STBXWW was the one and the love of my life. With my own OW 13 years ago, I used to say, that she could only be "the one" if she wanted to, and I must admit, that my STBXWW is definitely not "the one". My heart will heal and it might break again, but that is life.

I thought i'd throw this one out there... from her...

"This new you can suck the OLD DDJ's @SS"

DDJ, I know you said it's pointless to blab about your WW, but I think you should get it out. Sandi2 is right, you tend to swing far left and far right, and I wonder if your not acting on emotion when you decided to move forward with D.

I wonder if you should use the LRT prior to moving forward, I know that when I put a strong ultimatum down (no contact or I'm starting D process) that was when things turned around in my sitch.

Have you already told WW that you are moving forward with D?

Yes, and she is temp-checking at every opportunity.

I am not using LRT to get a reaction. I am D'ing because it's whats best for me and my son. OM2 is actually only leaving at the end of June, so it's going to be a long road for me. I am going to be using this time to detach.

I certainly know that D will not stop the pain or the hurt. I know that I will be able to heal with her in or out of my life. But right now, i choose to save myself, stand up for what i believe in and give up on my M to someone that does not love me.

I know that everyone here is pro-M, and I wish that I could stay married, however, I don't think it's the right thing to do. And that's taking emotions out of my decision.

I'm not so sure about everyone being pro M, I think it's more like pro choice.. Rooting for the LBS to make the decision on remaining M from a distance, through rational thought and desire.

For me, I hope everyone who wants to save their M is able to, but only if they can do it through an acceptance of what has occurred and an understanding of the work ahead to build a healthy and generally happy MR. The way I see it is if I found another person I wanted to be my W, that R would also be a lot of work, so for me, the key element is trust and desire.

Can I trust that my WW is committed to a new MR with me, can I trust that she comprehends the seriousness of adulatory and wouldn't stray again during the bad times (there will be more), can we desire each other enough to stay together in a M for the next 40 or so years. Can I trust that any decision I make is fully thought out, and that I comprehend the impact it will have on me over the next 40 years. If I leave, do I fully believe I will know I made the right decision in just 3 years?

You went from wondering if you should let her back in the MBR to D in the span of 4 days, I know when I make those kind of swings I'm coming from a place of emotion, so I would just caution you to take your time in making a big announcement. Go forward for the next few weeks with the mindset that your going to D, go dark, stay away from her, see if your happy with that decision over just the next few weeks. If you waiver over the next few weeks, then your probably not ready to make that decision yet.

I understand the desire to cut the cord and put this past you, I'm right there with you, I've made that "decision" a few times, only to change my mind the next day. I fully acknowledge that I don't know what I want, well I want this to have never happened but that's not an option, so for now I continue working on me and us. What will be will be.

Ps, it was nice to see everything you gained from this, and no matter what happens going forward, you will always be a better man for it.

Thx coconut, marvelous insight from your side. You too are good man. I will follow through in an attempt to find peace.

If God wants us to stay together then he will show me. I am listening.

My aim is detachment, here is where I am today...

In order to become detached from a person, place or thing, you need to:

First: Establish emotional boundaries between you and the person, place or thing with whom you have become overly enmeshed or dependent on.
I have done so. I have changed my actions and my feelings are changing.

Second: Take back power over your feelings from persons, places or things which in the past you have given power to affect your emotional well-being.
I have done so.

Third: "Hand over" to your Higher Power the persons, places and things which you would like to see changed but which you cannot change on your own.
I have done so.

Fourth: Make a commitment to your personal recovery and self-health by admitting to yourself and your Higher Power that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, rescue or heal other persons, places and things.
I have done so.

Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not want to get better nor see a need to change.
I have done so.

Sixth: Recognize that you need to be healthy yourself and be "squeaky clean" and a "role model" of health in order for another to recognize that there is something "wrong" with them that needs changing.
I have done so.

Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.
I have done so.

Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.
I have done so.

Ninth: Accept that addicted fixing, rescuing, enabling are "sick" behaviors and strive to extinguish these behaviors in your relationship to persons, places and things.
I am doing this.

Tenth: Accept that many people, places and things in your past and current life are "irrational," "unhealthy" and "toxic" influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.
I have done so.

Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt and other irrational beliefs which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life.
I have done so.

Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or make better the persons, places and things in life over which you have no control or power to change.
I am doing this.

Yesterday afternoon I took a nap, whenever I awake from sleep I have a clear mind. In that state I repeated the following in my head "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want". I don't know where it came from.

I immediately Googled it and read the rest of psalm 23. It is giving me peace.

I believe in karma, destiny and serendipity. But what's happening to me is something more powerful. I believe it to be divine intervention.

So WW is being as manipulative as she could ever be. I'm having to see her for what she is, the devil... I know that she needs an exorcism. LOL

Anyhows, I must drop her. She said that she will give up her new friends, the partying, alcohol if i most importantly bring the "old DDJ" back, because this new one is not the man she fell in love with.

@Sandi, yes, i am in a very different place to Coconut. I need to save myself, whilst coconut is trying to save his M.

So i never got the job, was not meant to be. But i believe that the interviews happened at the right time to keep me motivated at the most difficult time of my life. It helped keep me strong. Now i need to do it myself. I can do it.

And now for some breaking WW news...
Just when i thought my life was sooo bad, my W comes home - with corn-rows in her hair. I spoke about corn-rows about a month ago, as that is what black men love. And i just burst out laughing. I am a little anxious because i can see her waywardness physically, but happy because I can see it to motivate me. Kinda ironic.

I think she's on her way out tonight. Another opportunity to detach. I am looking forward to the day when i can just drop her. I need to get there. No vindictiveness, no ultimatums, no hurt, no pain. JUST GO.

So stbxww tells me that she's going out to get food as I never made food for her. An hour later and she's still not back, so I put my S to sleep. I put my phone off, close my door, and detach for the evening.

I awake at 3am. I wake her up, I ask her if she thinks I'm 2 years old that she can't tell me she's spending time with other men and does not know when she'll be home. She left in her full pj's btw. I tell her next time she goes, just let me know you're leaving and you don't know when you'll be back. I eventually got a yes out of her.

One of my friends said that it appears that I'm dealing with a rebellious teenager. It could not have been stated better.

I wanted to add her back onto my phone to get files whilst on vacation and then delete her again, she joked that I could name her contact "whore that broke my heart".she actually said it without solicitation.

I simple called her spouse.

Anyhows, I'm thinking about the words broken and heart, with my analytical mind. Did she really break my heart? Was it not always broken? I never knew love for God, my mother, my son, my family and friends, myself.

As for heart, well it feels much more full than its ever been.

Her and I were destined to be together. And now destined to be apart. I do not know what the future holds, but I'll give that to God to control.

So spoke with STBXWW today, she's happy with a 7/7 split, spoke about D settlement, and i could get away without spending an extra cent, after transfer of house.

No maintenance either due to the 50% share. Will apply for house by friday.

As for any chance of reconciling, well she was all over me trying to get some. She even said "you can wear a condom if you want". WOW, that filled me with confidence.

I was also thinking about my ten years with her, for those that followed my story, I was always attracted to other girls. Up to the point where I almost kissed someone else, I always used to say (to her) that I have a weakness for pretty girls.
Anyhows, I woke up after that incident and realised that I was married, and this was not the right thing to do. A few days later she was pressing me and I said "you know that that chick is prettier than you". I realise that I was saying that I was more attracted to her than to my own W.

So my over-analytical mind is thinking, if I was so close to being waywward (again), does that mean that I loved my wife but was not in love with her?

DDJ,

It sounds more like boundary issues to me, but I'm certainly not an expert.

DDJ

You sound very all over the place to me. Regardless of what you want I think you need to take a big step back. Even if you don't want to R with your W. Your behavior, from what I can read through a computer, is erratic and unattractive. I'm quite confused why you would wake your W up in the middle of the night.

My advice would be to STFU and go about your life. Leave your W be and if D is what you want then quit talking to her about it and see a lawyer.

You both sound like you have a lot of growing up to do. Maybe some time apart will allow the two of you to do so if you can leave each other be for long enough. It seems you both are just trying to get a rise out of one another.

Hope this helps

@T0324, yes it certainly helps. Sandi brought up before that her and I need MC. I think we need to find ourselves first after a D and then see if we even want to consider a R. One thing is certain, we are both co-dependant - getting a rise out of each other. I don't want to be attractive to her, as I am not attracted to her. Yes i just said that. I find things about her attractive tho.

Just got off the phone with my mother for one hour, trying to understand my progression of feelings towards my STBXWW over the 11 years, and it does not look pretty. Not going to speak to her about it tho...

I'm realising that I was attracted to her physically from day one, never really to the person inside. I never liked the person inside, the person I see now.

Once she lost a little bit of her physical attractiveness, I couldn't even look at her - shallow - ego - definitely. How could someone tell their own W that they're getting fat on their honeymoon? I DID. If DB'ing is to fix yourself, then call me MR BUILDER.

I have too much growing up to do. I need to find myself. If only life was simple and we knew who we were. But we bounce around knocking into people and impacting on their lives. As long as we learn lessons, then nothing can be lost. What a lesson this is.

I think TO324 was suggesting individual counseling, not MC. Regardless of whether you want to be attractive to your wife, you want to eventually be attractive to someone, right?

Originally Posted By: Rose888

I think TO324 was suggesting individual counseling, not MC. Regardless of whether you want to be attractive to your wife, you want to eventually be attractive to someone, right?

Yes...

Whether you want to save your marriage or not, I think you should seek individual counseling. things change often and I went through periods of wanting to move on and then wanting to save my M. It's a roller coaster ... So please do not have R convos with your W. Keep the road home smooth SHOULD either of you change your mind.

@rose and T0324, yes, I certainly want to be attractive again and i've been working on the new me for two months. I really like what I see. Still introspecting about who I am and what i stand for.

I guess i'm still on the rollercoaster. My aim was always to detach and i think i'm getting there. However, I cannot accept a cheating W back, I must perform the right action which is to D her, and show tough love. Only God knows what the future holds, but for now, this M is not in it.

My next post will follow on with my latest introspection...

After an evening and morning of introspection... this is what i have.

I was never "in love" with my STBXWW. I was co-dependent. I never really liked the real STBXWW and tried to change her. I created a barbie doll of what I wanted the world to see. I dressed her, took her out. It was all about my ego.

Then she started putting on weight and I seriously could not look at her chubbiness. Even telling her that she's getting fat on our honeymoon. I was creating a want-away-spouse.
Meanwhile, i had a WW who was also being selfish, a kept wife that wanted her own space, but waited for the perfect opportunity before she ran.
I know that my marriage must die. I must find myself and her too. I've never been attracted to the real STBXWW, this one now. But sexually, always will be and that's what probably kept us "happy" for so long.

I needed to learn the lesson of selflessness before I could see how UN-selfless I really was. I think that she was in love with me, but I certainly pushed her away. It does not condone her going outside of the marriage. This lesson is definitely for both of us.

I'm taking what i can from it and moving forward. My STBXWW will need to find her own feet. I wish her the best.

So, this reads like you 'needed' someone to complete the picture of who you needed to be - but when she didn't quite match up you criticised etc. Why couldn't you bear to look at her when she put on weight?

It doesn't sound as though you were able to build an authentic connection with your W. Or accept who she was. Why do you think that was? And yes, clearly she also wasn't the perfect spouse.....and of course there are no perfect spouses out there...

So, you had a sexual attraction but were never 'in love' with the woman you married?

I agree there may well be some lessons for you both here. And it sounds as though you BOTH need to find your own feet. Just remember that 'her' lessons are not yours to teach her - try and focus on your own lessons....and this is a work in progress for you from what you post above.

Good luck moving forwards

The weight issue; she was a size 6 when i met her, going all the way to a size 12 by our honeymoon. I am attracted to petite woman with long hair. My W never had both, but I was happy because I had her. When she lost her figure I sub-consciously stopped "loving her". I used to be embarrassed by walking with her being so big, never saying it, but she clearly felt the lack of affection. Low self-esteem, definitely maybe.

When we first started seeing each other, we were friends with benefits. BEST FRIENDS. Then she asked for a R, and I thought, what do i have to lose. But never, what do I have to gain.

As for marrying someone I was not in love with, well I was in for a penny and then in for a pound. She needed me, I could not drop her, i was still fixing her - this was a work in progress and my masterpiece was not complete yet. I could also not break her heart - in a similar way that i had broken my XGF's. So i stuck around, married her and quickly gave her a baby to help her to grieve her recently (1 month) deceased mother.

It was a fun journey, but i was always looking, trying to connect with other petite, long haired girls. No-one ever bit. Until i got bitten by my W.

As you say Sotto, these are my lessons. I'm highly analytical. A strength which my STBXWW still thinks is unattractive. So perhaps she'll never get here - but i am here now and will make sure that i am a success, in my life, work and any future R.

Yes, I agree there are some big lessons in there. So, your love depends on your spouse remaining around a size 6 or similar - if she gets bigger she'll become an embarrassment to you. You cruised around for petite dark women in your M and only didn't cheat because no-one bit. Then you show censure towards your W who presumably felt unloved and unaccepted and went outside the M for affirmation.

You may feel you have learned your lessons - and have become a man only a fool would leave. But I have to say there are some pretty big lessons to learn in that story, and your attitudes towards women are questionable I think.

Are you seeing a therapist yourself DDJ? I'm wondering why you found it hard to connect with someone on an authentic, deeper level (ie: seeing beyond the person who is brunette and petite...)

This may all sound a little blunt....and feel free to let me know if my postings aren't helpful.

Your postings are extremely helpful, keep talking :-)

I must show censure for her going out of the M, as she has committed adultery and there are consequences for ones actions. I'm not doing it to spite her. I'm doing it to stand up for the right thing. Regardless of what i "never" did, it does not condone her wayward behaviour.

I definitely know that I have many many many more lessons coming my way. I have learnt more about life, love and myself in the last 2 months than i have in 34 years! I believe that the further i get from her, the closer i will get to finding myself.
I learn something new everyday, break that down and learn about that. I love learning, which is why i am loving this journey. I believe that I am off my vicious cycle and on a virtuous one, which may take years to complete, if ever.

I'm not seeing a therapist yet, have a massive pool of support, including you guys where i bounce my thoughts off you all and try to understand my own Morse code. A therapist can only help me once a week, though it would make sense to summarize things.

As for not getting a real connection to someone that I was with every waking day for 10 years - I guess that's the next introspection. Will work on that and get back to you.

Lastly, darknes and dream have gone quiet on me since i said i'm filing. I can only surmise why. But one thing they taught me was, if you change your actions, your feelings will change. I know that 4 weeks of no sex is the catalyst to the realisation of what my feelings actually were/are.

So first thought on introspection...

I didn't want to love her. Why didn't i want to? Cos i didn't have to. I didn't have to love her to get what i had or wanted. I always wore the pants for sex, i needed her to initiate to boost my ego and she did it graciously. I could just go through the motions of our relationship, controlling her and our lives. I had full control. At least i thought... plus you don't need emotions when you have control.

Giving up on control is where i'm getting to, i guess you can love someone when you don't control them. I don't think that you can really do both at the same time. When one feels your M slipping, you try and control everything. When it's not slipping, you release that control. I never released it to love her in the first place.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

As for not getting a real connection to someone that I was with every waking day for 10 years - I guess that's the next introspection. Will work on that and get back to you.

Perhaps the answer to this has something to do with the lack of connection that you had with yourself?

True, we get taught that you can't really love someone else until you learn to love yourself. I've never looked in the mirror and asked myself these hard questions. I've never needed do.

I know i'm not broken anymore, my focus is on me. But i still need to find out how broken I really was to make sure that I am able to piece with myself. Fully let go of my past and move forward.

My STBXWW just called me now, frivolous call about white sauce for supper. She ended it with "i love you". I just kept quiet. She says, "You can at least say thank you" softly. I say "you're welcome". She then replies with, "you know that I really do love you". I then said "Bye".

Listen to Sotto.

Your introspections so far don't seem very deep, and they still seem far too focused on your W and not nearly focused on your issues.

A therapist would do far more than summarize. He or she would push you to get down to the real issues by asking questions like "You seem to see women as objects to enhance your self-esteem, rather than people in their own right. Why is that?" and "Do you think it is appropriate for a married man to be trying to attract women?"

You seem to think your brokenness is behind you. It doesn't appear that you are truly seeing how shallow your thinking about women is. not in the past. Right now.

Let me know if my this aren't helping and I'll stop posting in your thread.

Best of luck.

Music rings so clearly to me... put the radio on the first song i hear for the first time - here are the lyrics... WOW

"Back when I was 18
I wanted love so bad
Thinking back reminds me
It was the only drug I ever had

Don�t take it back
I won�t take it back it�s in the past
I know we lacked
The energy to make it last
But when we dream
All the love seemed real to me

I won�t break down
I wanna feel again somehow
You�ve given me the strength
The light that I need
The feeling of love is all around

Looking at my diaries
I was so angry and confused
Love was my addiction
Along with all the fools that used

I liked the idea
The idea of you
But did I ever love
And was my love true
Or was I the one
Was I the one that used

I won�t break down
I wanna feel again somehow
You�ve given me the strength
The light that I need
The feeling of love is all around

No, it�s time to let go, it�s what we don�t know
That keeps us alone"

Originally Posted By: Rose888

Listen to Sotto.

Your introspections so far don't seem very deep, and they still seem far too focused on your W and not nearly focused on your issues.

You seem to think your brokenness is behind you. It doesn't appear that you are truly seeing how shallow your thinking about women is. not in the past. Right now.

Let me know if my this aren't helping and I'll stop posting in your thread.

Best of luck.

Rose888, I appreciate all feedback. The more the merrier i always say. The feedback pushes my thinking deeper.

Yes, when i say not broken, I mean my daily goals will help me get where i need to be. I'm not lost like i used to be. I know what i stand for. I believe that God has set me on a path, but I first need to fix what's behind me before i can even look forward.

Thank you.

Heres my latest list of goals... Any help to refine based on my latest introspection would help. I hit 15 of 20 yesterday.

Detach (from WW and lose control)
� Do not start any conversations
� Do not let an argument spiral out of control, hold your breathe and walk away
� Do not check Tracker when WW is out
� Do not look at phone when WW is out, she can call the home phone
� Be mysterious
� Let others make their own decisions, do not control
� Do not go schizo!
� Do not go on forum for more than 2 hours
� Do not react to anything anyone says or does, pause and then consider my response

Improve myself (GAL)
� I need to go to gym at least 3 to 4 days a week. My gym bag must remain in the car so that I can simply state that �I�m going out�.
� I need to stop eating junk-food, and actually start eating. I need to keep healthy snacks to boost my nutrition.
� I need to do something different every wknd, for myself and with my S.
� No porn
� Stop being so introverted, open up, speak about your feelings
� No Cursing
� No Alcohol

Understand boundaries and implement some
� Get Cole to react first time to discipline
� No kissing, sex, intimacy, or hugging allowed

Appreciate the little things
� Affirm and compliment someone everyday, excluding my WW
� Show physical love

DDJ,

You're going to be an overachiever! I need to start setting daily goals as well; I've been on cruise control far too long.

Good for you working on some goals. I'm interested in that you seem to be DBing, but do you actually want your W back? The detach section below reads like you are still very much engaged with her - but you also say you never loved her anyway?

Heres my latest list of goals... Any help to refine based on my latest introspection would help. I hit 15 of 20 yesterday.

Detach (from WW and lose control) ( I would try and phrase these as positives, rather than Do nots)

� Do not start any conversations (if you have kids together is this possible?)
� Do not let an argument spiral out of control, hold your breathe and walk away (ideally I would say practice validation here...I'm sorry you feel that way etc..)
� Do not check Tracker when WW is out (I agree it's helpful to let go of monitoring her movements. Why have you felt the need to control things in this way?)
� Do not look at phone when WW is out, she can call the home phone (I wouldn't be a dork about your mobile if you have a child together, but no need to respond to non-essential stuff.)
� Be mysterious (why bother if you don't want her back anyway?)
� Let others make their own decisions, do not control (I agree with this one!)
� Do not go schizo! (I agree with this, though a positive statement - rather than do not - would be good.)
� Do not go on forum for more than 2 hours (yes 2 hours is more than enough - if you have GAL plans you don't need the forum so much.)
� Do not react to anything anyone says or does, pause and then consider my response (I agree, plus back to the validating again. All of this is actually about responding in a more mindful way - have you looked at stuff on mindfulness?)

Improve myself (GAL)
� I need (prefer will) to go to gym at least 3 to 4 days a week. My gym bag must remain in the car so that I can simply state that �I�m going out�. (Again why bother with the mysterious if you don't want her back)
� I need (prefer will) to stop eating junk-food, and actually start eating. I need to keep healthy snacks to boost my nutrition.(Maybe, I'll cook a healthy meal for me (and child?) at least X times per week.)
� I need to do something different every wknd, for myself and with my S. (Great - though will rather than need.)
� No porn (I thought you be into porn from the way you objectify women...hmm, food for thought there.)
� Stop being so introverted, open up, speak about your feelings (learn who I am, what I need and behave authentically around others.)
� No Cursing (agree - but would love to see this as more positive)
� No Alcohol....have you had issues with your use of alcohol.

Understand boundaries and implement some
� Get Cole to react first time to discipline (that sounds like you're trying to control his reaction - remember, you only get to control you...can you rephrase this?)
� No kissing, sex, intimacy, or hugging allowed (actually, I think this is around a boundary for you and your own wellbeing, given your W's involvement with someone else.)

Appreciate the little things
� Affirm and compliment someone everyday, excluding my WW (I would lose the exclude your W - actually if she is a great parent or does something else kind, why not?)
� Show physical love (in what way and to whom?)

Hope these comments are helpful DDJ.

I'd like to see goals around some more difficult stuff for you as I think you could dig deeper here along the lines of what others have posted. You may feel you are beyond brokenness at this point, but I promise you, you have a ways to go as do many of us here.

Take care

Also, I wanted to say that you seem to be behaving like a bit of a dork (no offence intended). Do you use all conversations with her as a means of continuing to punish her for straying outside the marriage?

I think your goal here needs to be to work towards forgiveness. Remember, you also wanted to stray but there were no 'bites.' Remember too that you rejected your W because she put on some weight.

I truly think your attitude suggests you are massively downplaying your own part in all of this. Yes, she chose to stray and that's on her. Equally, your own actions helped set the stage for this - just saying....

Again, if none of this is helpful, just let me know.

Originally Posted By: Sotto

Also, I wanted to say that you seem to be behaving like a bit of a dork (no offence intended).

I think Sotto nailed this (though I would use a different d--k word). And this is why I havent been posting to you much.

I get that you have boundaries. I understand that your W's actions have not shown to you that she is interested in continuing your marriage. That said, I dont think that your actions are showing any interest in that possibility.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

My STBXWW just called me now, frivolous call about white sauce for supper. She ended it with "i love you". I just kept quiet. She says, "You can at least say thank you" softly. I say "you're welcome". She then replies with, "you know that I really do love you". I then said "Bye".

Theres nothing about this conversation that is validating. It isnt being attractive. It's just being rude.

As Ive said before, it looks like you and your W are playing a game of oneupsmanship where you both want to be the one to walk away having hurt the other one more. You seem to be in this vicious cycle of punishment and Im not sure how to help you stop it.

As Sotto said, your goals are focused around your W, but not in a loving, lighthouse-y way. I would much rather see your goals about detachment to be focused on what you will do instead of having talks with her:
- I will go out for dinner alone with S once a week
- I will try a new GAL activity twice a month
- I will learn to control my temper by walking away if I need to
- I will not start a conversation about my relationship with W
- I will read XXX book to learn ABC
- When W talks, I will listen and validate
- I do not have to agree with my W, but I will listen, understand and empathize

Your goals read like you just want to avoid her. Like if you cut off all connection with her, then you will be fine. I dont see how that works. I dont see you being able to work through your feelings that way - I think youre just putting it off for later.

As for divorce, I am absolutely pro-marriage. I understand that in some cases, divorce is the best option, but in this one, I just dont see it. Saying "I need to spend one year as a bachelor" is totally arbitrary and selfish. You arent a bachelor. You a married father of a 4 year old son. What are you teaching him about commitment, about marriage, about treating women? The person you are with does not matter for what you need to do. Walking away from this marriage wont fix you. You have to fix you. I dont see how being divorced helps you do that.

You say that being divorced will help you gain the perspective you need. I call that garbage. You can gain all the perspective you need without being divorced. It reads like you want to "get even" or "win" this spat with W. I wholeheartedly believe that you will regret getting divorced in the not so distant future.

@doodler, always thought that I was an over-achiever. an ego thing which i need to lose.

@sotto, always helpful. I most likely use all convo's to talk about her infidelity. I understand where the pain and hurt is coming from. I'm conscious to the daggers that i throw her and that it does not help. I'm now able to see this and stop myself.

I'm not in the right place to work on forgiveness yet, as i think that the focus will be in the wrong place, especially since she's still doing it. Maybe in time i'll get there.

I don't think that i am downplaying my actions, I am 51% to blame for getting us there, but def not here. Keep it coming :-)

Detach (from WW and lose control)

� Only start conversations pertaining to pertinent things, which excludes any R or M conversations
� Validate when WW starts to get aggressive and looks for an argument
� Stop snooping regarding WW�s movements (I stopped doing this about 3 weeks back so am over it. I think it was co-dependency, as a piece of me was missing)
� Do not look at phone when WW is out, she can call the home phone (This is only when she is out with her new friends and S is with me, normally late night)

Click to reveal..

� Let others make their own decisions, do not control
� Maintain my composure and come across as calm, remain cordial with all interactions
� Do not go on forum for more than 2 hours a week day, and not on wknds (I did well this wknd without it)
� Do not react to anything anyone says or does, pause and then consider my response (Will look into things on mindfulness, I have had a tendency to not be mindful of what I say and when to say it)

Improve myself (GAL)
� I will go to gym at least 3 to 4 days a week (Still have not gone as things wind themselves down)
� I will eat only healthy and nutritional food. (I have eaten take out twice in the last month, doing great and have an appetite now, actually always hungry now)
� I will do something different every wknd, for myself and with my S.
� No porn (Yeah, I was addicted to porn, but worse as I introduced my WW to it too. But its now 5 weeks and no porn, so yay! Very easy to drop tho)
� Open up to others, be myself and understand that my actions impact on others, positive or negative � I choose the impact.
� I will ensure that I reduce my curses throughout the day (this is a new one and very difficult)
� No Alcohol (no issues, my WW does though, I used to drink just cos she�d finish the whole bottle if I did not - 5 weeks sober too!)

Understand boundaries and implement some
� Get S to understand that he must listen to his parents
� No kissing, sex, intimacy, or hugging allowed with WW(this is the best boundary I could ever have had)

Appreciate the little things
� Affirm and compliment someone everyday (she is trying, making food for me but I�m saying no, definitely my give-up mentality, will work on it, going to have to 360 that then)
� Show physical love (to my mother and son, and friends that I interact with � with a hug really)
(NEW) Be thankful to God for the small things which i've always taken for granted.

I have read a bunch on this thread and nver really posted. I have a lot of thoughts but i need to gather then better.

One statement/question though.

I have read you state about god will find a way and things like that, yet i dont see much about you showing you are trying to live life in his footsteps.

Are you a religious person or were you just using these words as a way to sound self righteous to your W?

Legitimate question that may help me with my next post.

@darknes, my WW argues that she's only going out because I am GAL'ing. She only put a lock on her phone because i did it.
Every attempt to drop her, financially, physically and emotionally is seen by her as another way that i'm punishing her and pushing her away. For her, its a game, for me, i'm trying to deal with myself.

I believe that I am giving up control of her - I am giving her all the space that she wants. I need to avoid her because she is in relations with other men. How can i possibly let her in, whilst letting her go? I'm still dealing with my feelings or lack of that i introspected today, I have no time for her cos i'm focusing on me, but will validate, as a minimum.

As for D, i appreciate your pro-marriage stance. I really do. I know that D is not the answer here, but it is the right thing to do. My stance of being a bachelor has changed, I need to be selfless. My feelings say don't let go, my head says that she has broken the cardinal sin of M, for which there is only one consequence. I am hurting thinking about the finality, but i believe that this is where my journey is taking me.

I will look at the goals again with your feedback too. Thank you as always. Don't give up on me just yet.

Originally Posted By: otw

I have read you state about god will find a way and things like that, yet i dont see much about you showing you are trying to live life in his footsteps.

Are you a religious person or were you just using these words as a way to sound self righteous to your W?

Legitimate question that may help me with my next post.

Very legitimate question. I have always thought that God was something existential. But i've realised that He's inside us, if we want guidance. I have prayed more in the last week than i have my entire life. I ask for calm and peace.

For me it's about making the right decisions, regardless of how you feel. God teaches forgiveness, but he also teaches tough love. It hurts to have to D my WW, but it is the right thing to do. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then the road to heaven must be paved with good actions. I'm new to this but it feels right.

DDJ,

I know from personal experience that telling your W other women are more attractive and telling her she is getting fat on your honeymoon is EXTREMELY DAMAGING. To not being able to look at your own W because she lost some physical attractiveness. Sorry if I am sounding harsh, but I have seen first hand what it does to someone I care for very much. It's heartbreaking. Gaining that level of trust back from your partner probably takes just about as much work as gaining back trust after an A.

I am glad you want to work on these things for yourself. I am glad you recognize how wrong it was. Whether or not you decide to stay with you W, please seek help on this issue. This will damage every relationship you ever have.

Thx Ginger, I will not lose my focus on improving myself. I was a fool, now i will be the person that only a fool would leave.

Originally Posted By: darknes

As for divorce, I am absolutely pro-marriage.

I would like to challenge your thinking on the word PRO darknes. M is a decision not taken lightly, a vow between you and your W before God. A vow to commit to only one person until you die.

Your PRO is condoning infidelity. You're saying that even if my WW sleeps with the entire soccer team because I pushed her away, then I must learn to accept it and ultimately we need to find ourselves and each other. This goes against the monogamous institution that we all signed up for and once believed in, when we got married.

What chapter 1 of the DR book is saying, is that we should allow infidelity and accept polygamy in M. These are simple blips in the pursuit of happiness.

I disagree. M for me is a choice, a choice to be together. My WW has made her wrong choice. I need to make the right one now.

I think the section on improving yourself needs a goal or two around learning to treat women as people, not Barbie dolls.

You have a lot of goals already, but this is a core issue that is too important to leave for later. Better to swear and have authentic relationships with women than to not swear and be shallow.

DDJ,

I'm with you on this. I want to be in a marriage. If my wife has a boyfriend, then I don't consider it to be a legitimate marriage.

I also see you have a young son. A young son who will look to you and how you treat women.

I agree with Rose. This is an issue you should put at the forefront. Before saving your M. Or ending your M. Or what have you.

I am against infidelity. I would never commit it, I would not accept it as ok, but I would try to work through it if my spouse ended his A.

I am quite a few years past my D, my exH being married to his AP for 5 years, have realized there are actions committed in M's that can be as bad as infidelity.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I am quite a few years past my D, my exH being married to his AP for 5 years, have realized there are actions committed in M's that can be as bad as infidelity.

Ginger1,

What types of actions are you talking about? Do you mean breaking up the family?

Originally Posted By: doodler

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

I am quite a few years past my D, my exH being married to his AP for 5 years, have realized there are actions committed in M's that can be as bad as infidelity.

Ginger1,

What types of actions are you talking about? Do you mean breaking up the family?

What I mean is marriage is way more than just staying faithful through one another. There are acts you can commit that are just as hurtful. That are just as damaging that will break trust all the same as infidelity.

Emotional abuse is one of them. breaking one you love so badly they feel completely unworthy. It happened to me, I've seen it happen to others that are close to me.

It is an awful betrayal. And takes remorse, wanting to change, and TONS of really hard work to repair the M and damage that has been done by it. Just like when there is an A.

Ginger1,

Yes, I totally agree, emotional and/or physical abuse is unacceptable.

Originally Posted By: darknes

As for divorce, I am absolutely pro-marriage.

I would like to challenge your thinking on the word PRO darknes. M is a decision not taken lightly, a vow between you and your W before God. A vow to commit to only one person until you die.
Well, Im terribly non-religious. But in general, yes. This is what I interpret marriage to mean.

Your PRO is condoning infidelity. You're saying that even if my WW sleeps with the entire soccer team because I pushed her away, then I must learn to accept it and ultimately we need to find ourselves and each other. This goes against the monogamous institution that we all signed up for and once believed in, when we got married.
Im not exactly sure thats what Im saying. I am not saying that all betrayals that are forgivable. What I am saying is that I would do and have done my best in an attempt to preserve my marriage. I dont believe that you need to exit a marriage in order to improve yourself or to improve your relationship. I dont think the actual act of being "Divorced" means a whole heck of a lot, but what it does is place extra barriers towards reconciling. I believe if you and your wife each can get to a healthy place, then being together is far better for all 3 of you than being apart. I see you throwing away that opportunity and Im not really sure for what benefit.

What chapter 1 of the DR book is saying, is that we should allow infidelity and accept polygamy in M. These are simple blips in the pursuit of happiness.
Recovery from infidelity is HARD. And there is no shame in failing.

But to not try is failure. And it sets you, your wife, and your child into a different world that is likely worse for all of you.

I disagree. M for me is a choice, a choice to be together. My WW has made her wrong choice. I need to make the right one now.
So you and W are making the same choice, but hers is wrong and yours is right?

The choice you need to make is the same one youve needed to make since you joined here. To become the best DDJ that you can be.

I still dont see what being married, separated, or divorced has to do with that.

I guess i dont need to type anything more. Everything I was thinking has been brought up.

Please seek IC for your issues regarding the treatment of women and people in general as you already noted you did not like what you did to her. There is something deeper there that caused this.

Divorcing her is not the answer because you need to work on you.

Her infidleity was wrong. What you did was wrong. Wrong is wrong not one more than the other.

Yes marriage meant monogamy, but i bet there were others vows that you both took that were also broken.

I am not saying just forgive her and brush under the rug. you both need to do some serious work on yourselves before you can work on a marriage.

Listen to the ladies here. we are not wired to think like them but we can learn

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate your viewpoints.

However, i signed up for monogamy. I almost fell into the same trap of infidelity. Darnit, I broke my virginity in an adulterous affair. But just because it happened does not mean it is right.

How have we progressed as a society that the sanctity of M and being with one person no longer has meaning. If we accept emotional abuse, then we must accept infidelity? No.

There is a right thing and a wrong thing to do. I had the audacity to ask my WW this question earlier...

If you believed that I cheated on you, would you D me? She paused for 2 seconds and then answered yes. I returned with... You have given me every reason to believe that you have cheated and nothing to make me believe that you have not - this is why i am divorcing you.

I guess the acceptance of infidelity is based on beliefs, everyone is different. I believe that infidelity signals the end of a M. This is how i grew up, with Christian principles, such as stealing, adultery and murder being wrong.

I need to fix myself, but it does not mean that I cannot fix myself if we're divorced. As for D standing in the way of reconciling. Well that's really the purpose of D. I do not want to reconcile with someone that has betrayed me and her son. Torn our family apart for her selfish ways. I don't know if i will take her back in a few years time. I do not know what the future holds, but i must take the right action now.

If my S asks me one day, why did you and mom get D'd, I will say that your mother never kept her vows, neither did I. She chose infidelity and I never really loved her. It had to end. It was the right thing to do.
I am taking the right action, even though i feel differently.

You never really loved your W?

A figure of speech in the heat of the moment. I never knew what love was. I know somewhere I did. I hope to find it soon :-)

Quote:

What I mean is marriage is way more than just staying faithful through one another. There are acts you can commit that are just as hurtful. That are just as damaging that will break trust all the same as infidelity.

Emotional abuse is one of them. breaking one you love so badly they feel completely unworthy. It happened to me, I've seen it happen to others that are close to me.

It is an awful betrayal. And takes remorse, wanting to change, and TONS of really hard work to repair the M and damage that has been done by it. Just like when there is an A.

I like the way this gal thinks!

So tell me plain and simple........do you want to save your M?

If yes, are you going to do it the DB way, or your way?

Originally Posted By: DDJ

However, i signed up for monogamy.

Dont get me wrong, I did too. But life happens.
I committed to for better or for worse.
Im not going to bail just because of one mistake. Just because things got worse.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

But just because it happened does not mean it is right.

Of course infidelity isnt right. Im certainly not arguing that it is.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

How have we progressed as a society that the sanctity of M and being with one person no longer has meaning. If we accept emotional abuse, then we must accept infidelity?

What? Of course it has meaning. Im not willing to live in an open marriage. But I AM willing to work though issues that my partner has in order to preserve a marriage after making a mistake.

Your W has clearly made some mistakes. While we dont know the extent, it doesnt really make a ton of difference. If you arent willing to forgive this/these mistakes, then fine, get a divorce. Im not saying that you have to. What I am saying is that linking the divorce to this:

Originally Posted By: DDJ

I need to fix myself

is asinine. Go out and improve yourself. You dont need to be divorced to do that.

I am taking the right action, even though i feel differently. [/quote]

A couple of things stood out to me when I was trying to save my marriage.

Around two thirds of marriages actually do survive infidelity. That means that many people - believers and none believers do dig deep and want to rebuild things after infidelity. I wanted to believe that I was as committed and forgiving as the nest person.

The advice to wait for a good period of time - at least six months after discovering infidelity - before making a decision about ending your marriage. It takes a good while for the dust to settle and for thinking and feelings to become more clear.

These two things I thought of time and time again. Also important to me was that my XH was a good person to be M to until this happened and (so far as I know) hadn't cheated before. These things all influenced my decision to remain open to rebuilding things.

Ultimately my XH didn't want to do this. He remains with his affair partner (so far as I know) and saw the D through to conclusion. That's okay - and for me I do feel there is peace in having stuck it out and fought for my M, which mattered to me a great deal.

At this point - almost two years on - what matters most is who I have been, what I have done and why, and who I have become. I can sleep easy with all of that.

That's just my experience and we all vary - but just thought I would share...

Sotto,

I understand what you're saying, and I agree. My biggest fear is being too tolerant of an affair. If you know what I mean; it's hard for me to put into words. I'm willing to forgive and move on with my marriage, but there's a certain level of tolerance of an affair that's not acceptable to me.

For example, the guy who's wife told him she was going to spend the weekend with the OM. Regardless of whether or not she's being honest, I think that sort of overt affair behavior is more than I could tolerate.

Doodler, I absolutely understand that and actually XH and I separated as soon as he admitted his affair. I knew from the very bottom of my being that I couldn't live with him whilst this was ongoing.

That said, I also knew that most A's don't develop into successful R's and I remained open to considering a possible R.

For me now, the door is pretty much closed and it would take a significant shift for me to even consider a possible R - however that's almost two years on and already D'd.

I wouldn't want you to think I can overlook infidelity - for sure that's not the case...

However, if I could have saved my M, I would have dug deep to try.

Sotto,

I think we're in agreement.

I've gotten the idea that some people are willing to tolerate a lot of bad behavior by the WS and, in my opinion, that opens the door for a follow-on affair by the WS because there's no punitive element to having another affair.

Thx sotto, doodler, ginger, darknes, dream, coconut, especially sandi, and everyone else that has contributed to my experience here, I will cherish the bonds that I have built with you.

I will not work on a sham of a M, one where I will condone and explicitly allow my WW to carry out her affairs. She does not care about me, she does not love me. I will see through the filing of my D. I will not use the filing of the D to fix myself. Those are 2 separate journeys.

I choose put my faith in God and with him by my side I can achieve anything!

I will visit often to catch up on your journeys and pray for you to be strong when you need it most. I don't want to come across as preaching, never my intention...

"What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Here is some good commentary on what this means;

Matthew Henry Commentary
10:1-12 Wherever Jesus was, the people flocked after him in crowds, and he taught them. Preaching was Christ's constant practice. He here shows that the reason why Moses' law allowed divorce, was such that they ought not to use the permission; it was only for the hardness of their hearts. God himself joined man and wife together; he has fitted them to be comforts and helps for each other. The bond which God has tied, is not to be lightly untied. Let those who are for putting away their wives consider what would become of themselves, if God should deal with them in like manner.

Goodbye.

hey DDJ, my absence has nothing to do with your decision to pursue your divorce. At times, I was too confused with all of your changing thoughts, I had no idea how to reply to your posts. Recently, I've simply been busy with things happening in my life. I didn't get a chance to check this site at all this week until today! However, it looks like you received some fantastic advice from others anyway.

I hope you seek IC and get to the root of your thoughts/feelings about how you view women. You won't be able to have a fulfilling relationship until you're able to connect with others on a deeper level.

In response to your final quote:
You are the one that is separating what God has joined together. You are the one that has untied your marriage.

From what I've seen, you have not tried to save your marriage. I don't think that attempt can come from you until you've fixed the things within yourself. There is so much work to be done. I'm sad to see you leaving the site as you could improve so much more, but unfortunately, we can't force people to do things.

Hmmm im going to stand in DDj corner here on the D. From what i've read he doesnt want his W or M anymore. I could be wrong, there could be more to the story but only DDJ can answer that.

Does he need to rush it, probably not. I was under the impression that these thing take awhile to finalise. In my country you are actually forced to go to mandatory counselling when you file for a D.

Sandhi put it real, does he want to save the M or not? forget growth or change or whatever. Its does he want to save the M or not?

I didn't want to divorce; my wife initiated. I tried hard at first to get through to her, and didn't DB well, but did enough for her to reconsider.

She eventually went with her feelings, and those who told her to chase her feelings. I was unwilling to live in an open marriage, and during the reconciliation period, in which my wife was doing NO work, and heavily into the OM, I re-started the divorce.

We're done with the D. My ex is the same as she was before - angry at me. I can't change that. I can't change her. Some days, I still want to put the anger I feel into a verbal discussion with her, and many times her verbal exchanges with me are just a way for her to start that verbal diarrhea.

I still believe in BD; I read MWD's Divorce Remedy. It was the best advice I got out of many.

In the end, DDJ will realize he needs to stop tugging on the marriage rope, and start pulling on the self-healing rope, which leads to a focus on what led him to be who he is, what he wants to be, and where he's going. Once you furl some sails, and put a little distance between the ships, the course becomes clearer, and you're not looking over your shoulder at the old course and old ship.

It doesn't mean he doesn't want the ships to meet again; in fact, that's what I'd love to see happen, in his sitch as well as mine. However, the facts are my ex-WW's heart is far gone, and her journey to find herself made her choose some very poor choices; choices that hurt the family, and her kids. She can't see that yet, as her affair with the married man is not yet over.

I'm supportive of you, DDJ. Don't treat your moving forward on the divorce as a happy time - you quoted scripture, and I applaud you for it. Just remember, He permits divorce, but He still HATES divorce. David was a man after His own heart, but David still did some pretty stupid things. David, after a time, realized what he had done, and it's effects rippled through the rest of his life. He came to his senses; I hope my ex-WW does as well. As history has shown, most do. The trouble with history is that is has a time component, and I'm looking forward to a time where my needs are met by another person. God didn't create a soulmate for me - I'm sure there's another Mrs. Trumpet out there. I just need to make sure I'm one complete, hunk of a Trumpet, so that I can make sure this thing called Divorce never, ever happens to me again.

DDJ, do what you need to do. Stay humble. Stay hopeful for a bright future, with or without your WW.

OMG, I've never seen your page this far back. I hope you are okay.

Oh, didn't see that last post of yours. So sad, and I am so sorry for you and your little boy. Hope to hear from you soon.

DDJ, wanted to look you up and let you know I'm thinking about you. I hope that your staying strong and moving forward to where you need to be. If you stop by, give us an update.

here here.

Hi all - yes i'm back, not sure for how long though... Wanted to wait a bit longer but thought that the time is right now to give some newbies and vet's some hope and faith.

I do plan on summarising this whole DB thing in few threads that could rival Sandi's stuff, but from an opposing view of "drop the M, save yourself". Will do once the D is done.

So does DB work - YES IT DOES. Can it save a marriage - depends if you want to.

I have completed all requirements for filing of the D. I could get the final papers within the next few days. Then I go to our divorce court and get put on the court roll. Then I appear before the magistrate and legally divorce. This could be done within 2 to 4 weeks. South Africans know the need to "let go" of the past - LOL.

In a nutshell, my STBXWW has no respect for me. If she has no respect, then she does not care about me. If she does not care about me, then she does not love me. No-one cheats on someone that they respect, care about or love. I think that these 3 basic things are a requirement for a happy marriage - and i'm not even going to go into my side of the R.

I can choose to fight for something that isn't mine anymore, or i can live my life to the fullest and find someone that knows what real love is and is willing to share it with me.

Hey DDJ... You might be faking it till you make it, but it does sound like your at piece with where you are, and that's the best that could be hoped for. Good for you.

I don't know how much of my thread you read when you stopped by, but overall I'm doing well, just that MC 2 days ago stirred up some emotions. I only ended being up for about 1 1/2 hrs last night, then went back to cuddle, I've been doing well about keeping my emotions in chk. I have been letting go what I can't control, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it in making decisions as to where I want to go. But for now, I continue on, making myself better and working on piecing.

Hey Coconut,

I'm not faking it. I realised that that anxiety that keeps one awake at night is because your body, your soul is telling you that something is wrong. The minute I gave up on my M and focused on healing myself, it slowly stopped and has now gone away entirely.

I was never without fear as to whether or not i wanted her as a GF, whether I wanted to move in with her, get engaged, marry her, have a child with her - BUT now I am sure and without fear that I am making the best decision for me.

OH, and my e-divorce papers just came - I go to court tomorrow :-)

Originally Posted By: DDJ

In a nutshell, my STBXWW has no respect for me. If she has no respect, then she does not care about me. If she does not care about me, then she does not love me. No-one cheats on someone that they respect, care about or love. I think that these 3 basic things are a requirement for a happy marriage

I agree with all of this. But I still fail to see how the best path forward is divorce as opposed to working to rebuild those things.

Either way, I wish you good luck.

Thx Darknes. Was going to keep this for my big post once the D is settled, but am going to call you out again...

Once more, I respect your opinion and I would not be a healed, strong, confident God believing man if it was not for your help too.

But you said previously that you were non-religious, and never believed in D. This is the thing, we got married in a church because we understood that God ordained our M's. But then we forgot about God and went along our merry way, until BD, which was when we looked in the mirror and never liked what we saw.

Now we have an opportunity to accept infidelity as a part of M, or do the right thing, regardless if we feel differently. Taking the right action trumps doing what you feel is right.

So here's the call-out - D was created to end a marriage for unfaithfulness, if the partner is unrepentant - If you do not believe in the purpose of D, then you do not believe in the sanctity of M?

DDJ,

I'm not sure you want to answer these since you didn't mention them, but just in case. Does your WW still live in the house? Has she shown any reaction to the D moving forward? What do you think you would do if she came to you with sincere remorse, wanting to do anything to save M?

You've gone through hell in your situation, and I'm glad to see that you are finding peace. I would disagree with anyone that says you shouldn't move forward with D if that is what you want/need, as long as your ready to actually move on, and it sounds like you are.

well Coco... i'm an open book really :-)

She does live in the house, still in the second bedroom and still untidy as hell.

She has shown some emotion, but i have hardened my heart to the point that we are literally living like neighbours. There has been literally no physical contact, besides holding hands at pray time with my son for about a month. I even created a barrier to her Temp checking - i told her that if she continues then i will throw her out when the house is in my name - she promptly stopped. That helped take me off her rollercoaster a bit.

As for saving the marriage, well, not a chance because i have made up my mind. She could walk through coals, throw herself into a burning volcano. Nothing will change my mind. She came up with a silly story yesterday about a guy at the bank who's trying to save his M even though he's aware of an affair... she says " and i'm not even having an affair, why can't you try and make things work too".

God has saved me and I have saved myself. That is all that matters to me. I'm putting the old DDJ in the past, along with all of his sins and moving forward as the new DDJ.

I am not a broken man. I am a healed man. I only cry for the breakdown of the family unit.

OH, and i never thought i was ready for D. BUT NOW I CAN'T WAIT.

DDJ,

I understand. You get to the point when enough is enough and it's time to move on. I'm glad it didn't break you.

Originally Posted By: DDJ

Thx Darknes. Was going to keep this for my big post once the D is settled, but am going to call you out again...

Once more, I respect your opinion and I would not be a healed, strong, confident God believing man if it was not for your help too.

But you said previously that you were non-religious, and never believed in D. This is the thing, we got married in a church because we understood that God ordained our M's. But then we forgot about God and went along our merry way, until BD, which was when we looked in the mirror and never liked what we saw.

Now we have an opportunity to accept infidelity as a part of M, or do the right thing, regardless if we feel differently. Taking the right action trumps doing what you feel is right.

So here's the call-out - D was created to end a marriage for unfaithfulness, if the partner is unrepentant - If you do not believe in the purpose of D, then you do not believe in the sanctity of M?

It sounds like you are saying that if your spouse is unfaithful, you have to divorce them for religious reasons. Is that what you are saying?

I have never heard of a religion that teaches that.

Hi DDJ, I think the most important thing is that you can live with deciding to file and feel it is truly the right choice for you (ie: not reactionary etc.)

I chose not to file and am glad of that - However, we are all in different places and that's fine.

Just be sure you are truly at peace with your decision and won't have 'what ifs' further down the road.

Whatever you decide - good luck to you xx

CCJ

Do me a favour describe "untidy as hell". My WAW did this for 2 years! Just wanted to see if there was a pattern.

Thanks.

DDJ even - apologies (typo)

@rose, the Bible says that God hates divorce. It should only be used for hardened hearts and unrepentant spouses. The Bible also says that you can forgive, and why not. Forgiveness is a choice.

I'm not saying that I have not forgiven. I realise that I must only forgive myself. My M was dead years ago, she never cheated, as she does not know what she does. So I move on with my soul intact.

@sotto, yes we are all different. But I always believed that if my partner cheated on me, that I would divorce her. Anything less and I'm lying to myself. Same goes for my next partner and even myself if I ever go wayward again. I will file, and think about some WS's that file out of nowhere. This is not a fog. This is emotion... Or lack thereof.

Well, there is a place for everything and everything in its place is lost on her.

Dirty clothes, underwear, not flushing toilet. Like she's a teenager. She has the emotional stability of a teenager too.

I only ask as for 2 years when my WAW lifed in her room it was the same - she moved upstairs out of our room. I got cleaners in when she left - they said it might take a day (!) to clean it. Can someone tell me if this is depression, mental illness or common amongst WAW and if the latter why?

Originally Posted By: DDJ

@rose, the Bible says that God hates divorce. It should only be used for hardened hearts and unrepentant spouses. The Bible also says that you can forgive, and why not. Forgiveness is a choice.

I'm not saying that I have not forgiven. I realise that I must only forgive myself. My M was dead years ago, she never cheated, as she does not know what she does. So I move on with my soul intact.

@sotto, yes we are all different. But I always believed that if my partner cheated on me, that I would divorce her. Anything less and I'm lying to myself. Same goes for my next partner and even myself if I ever go wayward again. I will file, and think about some WS's that file out of nowhere. This is not a fog. This is emotion... Or lack thereof.

This doesn't explain why you questioned darkness's belief in the sanctity of marriage because he doesn't believe in divorce.

Can you explain that part?

You seem really happy with your decision to divorce. It's the attempt to explain it as the religiously "right" thing to do that Has me baffled. I can't see that you have a theological leg to stand on, but maybe I'm just not understanding your point.

new thread...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2687297&#Post2687297