Starting a new thread per Cadet:)
It's been a good couple days for me. S graduated from kindergarten yesterday. That was a great day. W and I had breakfast together before we went. She cried a lot during his ceremony and showed raw emotion. We have been getting along great. No R talk! She even asked me my opinion on changing her hair. Also she made plans with another couple for us to go out together.
Even though she has been using that word "skeptical" her actions seem like they are in the right direction. Although I'm still keeping my space and not instigating anything or trying to read too much into it
I've actually become kind of happy that this has happened and that it has put me on the path of the man I want to be
There is a lot of things from my past that I brought to this R and I don't want to have it hanging anymore. Whether its my current marriage or one in the future, I want to be the best husband and father I can be. I want to be happy for me.
This space has allowed me to do that.
I'm reading The Solo Partner right now and I have learned so much about my triggers and what pushes my buttons.
Although I know it can't be fixed overnight. I know that it can be fixed and that puts me in very good place
As cadet says it is a gift if embraced fully
Very true Roist!
That's how I'm looking at it
I've definitely detached a good bit which is what I needed to do to be able to stay in the same house
I would be lying if I said I've detached completely, but I've come far enough to not let everything she does or doesn't do affect my attitude
Learning to can control me and not control my environment has been key and it will be a long road to make it to where it's habit
That's the goal for me
Hopefully saving my first marriage is a by product of that, but if not that ok as well
I just wanna know that I tried 100 percent. That's all I can do
Just an update on things.
W and I still in separate bedrooms. We are getting along great and laughing a lot. Our communication is so much better. I've really learned a lot about my verbal abuse and how it has affected our marriage and made my wife numb. It's something that is going to take a lot of work on my part. I still don't know if it will save my marriage, but I can't constantly worry about that.
I am continuing to focus only on the things that I can control.
I do not mind read, bring up R, or temp check.
I am just living in the moment with were things are currently at.
I do realize that this is going to take time. My verbally abusive and controlling ways brought my W to place that will be hard for her to trust that I can change. I now see this clearly.
As I say all the time this is a sprint not a marathon.
On a positive note her actions, other than romantic, are all positive. Even things like asking if we have plans for 4th of July. Scheduling family trip at the end of July. Things like that which wouldn't be happening if she didn't think things would improve.
Only time will tell. For now I will be focusing on me and the things I can control.
Headed to the river with my S for a couple of a days this afternoon and I'm looking forward to the time with just him and I
It's so much fun when we get to just get away the two of us
CBT, sounds like your in a great place, way ahead of me on detaching... My mind is still on overdrive and I over analyze almost everything. I'm glad to see you get it, and your self recognition is fantastic, sounds like you are becoming the man you want to be.
Hey cbtdad, just catching up.
Here's my perspective on your interchange with W -- it was very helpful that you posted it all. W was upset that you "stuck her at home to deal with S6". That's really what it was about, she felt that you left her alone to deal with him while you went off and had fun. Everything else was a red herring.
When you then got into the discussion of what you told S6 and when, it didn't matter. There was a 0.0% chance she was going to absorb what you were saying, stop and think, and say "Oh! I see he's right, I should apologize." In fact, the more you rebut her version of events, the angrier she's going to get, and will dig in more and more, or will move the ball to be angry about something else.
It is never productive to discuss facts with someone who is emotional -- ever. There is no judge or jury, and you cannot win.
What you need to do is comment on and validate the other person's emotions:
"W, I can see that you're upset by how things have happened this weekend. I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm sure it's frustrating. My conversations with S were different than what he's telling you, but that's not what's important right now."
Try to empathize with how she's feeling and validate it. When she calms down she may ask for your version of events, or she may not, but either way it doesn't matter. Even if you were 100% right she's still mad at you right?
If you feel that you were treated unfairly, the best way to handle it is to say "W, I didn't like how the discussion about the lake went. I'd like to talk to you about it some more (pick a time later)"
That way she has a chance to mentally prepare and will be more likely to be receptive. Then open up that discussion by explaining how you think she felt about it, or how it seemed from her perspective, explain your perspective, and fully own anything you believe you did wrong without asking her to do the same.
Good luck!
Acc
Wow Acc!!
You nailed it!
That's exactly how it went down. When I spoke about it with my IC we discussed how I could have handled it differently from the beginning. She said it would have been better to ask if she didn't mind watching S6 so that I could have a day instead of just "telling" her that's what she was going to do. It was more controlling behavior on my part. When we discussed it in MC it was just like you said. She even admitted to being so angry at that point that it didn't matter what I said.
You hit it dead on. I had a chance to validate and empathize and I didn't
That's a big part of what I'm working on.
Listen, validate, empathize.
Just coming into my thread to journal a little
S and I are up in the mountains for a couple nights
For some reason I find myself stressing about W and I have snooped on our phone pill a lot. Something I haven't been doing for a few weeks
All of sudden it's like an addiction again.
Not sure if it's because I'm out of town or what
I mean what difference does it make. I can't control what she is doing while I'm in town or not.
Anyways I came here to get it out and set a goal.
Not gonna check bill for rest of trip
That's a very natural and normal protection instinct. Good for you for recognizing it and setting a goal!
I got back in town last night. I was walking through garage and noticed my W had a bag in her car. Like an overnight bag.
Normally I would have immediately jumped to conclusions and ran upstairs and grilled her about what the hell does she have a bag in her car for?
But I'm learning patience and how to collect my thoughts before reacting, so I did not do that. I finishing preparing dinner and the two of us ate outside on the patio. I then brought it up to her and just asked if she stayed the night at a friends or something. She just said no. I then said just seemed weird that you had your bag in your car.
Anyways about an hour later I told her sorry for even questioning it. She said she was planning on going running after work and if I wanted to go look in the bag I would find running clothes and running shoes. She said she didn't answer me earlier because she was going to just let me stir around in my head and get all worked up to whatever I was thinking. That's her way of testing me. She wanted to see if I was going to react like I use to.
I told her I didn't need to check the bag and I believed her.
It did feel good to see that, no over react, not go into the car and check the bag. All things I would have definitely done before. It also felt good to know that she is testing me and that Im doing better and not going back to my old ways.
Having said all that. These are positives. But I still for like we are very much disconnected. We are getting along great and do a lot of things together. But in the end I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. There is no romance at all and its something I'm not pushing. But I just feel like at some point soon I am going to get the "I've tried, but I just don't love you like that anymore" speech.
I'm very having to do what I am doing for me and I feel like I am making progress. But I so miss that physical touch and connection with my W
But I am reading a book about verbal abuse and I know I am having to do what I am doing just to have shot at saving my marriage. If I don't save my marriage I am certainly going to save myself. And for that I am grateful
But I still for like we are very much disconnected. We are getting along great and do a lot of things together. But in the end I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. There is no romance at all and its something I'm not pushing. But I just feel like at some point soon I am going to get the "I've tried, but I just don't love you like that anymore" speech.
I'm very having to do what I am doing for me and I feel like I am making progress. But I so miss that physical touch and connection with my W
I just wrote something similar on my thread. I have decided that I need to work very hard at NOT focusing on that and really refocus on me. It is easier said than done, I think we naturally need that connection, both physical and emotional.
That's exactly what I am trying to do. Not focus on that. I am just trying to focus on repairing myself first so that I don't bring this to our M or a new relationship.
I know what I want in a M. I also know that at times we have definitely had that. I've done a lot of damage to destroy that with my controlling and verbally abusive ways. I understand that now and it's something I own.
Last time we were in a bad place in our marriage she found another man. I think because of that I put a lot of worry into that possibly happening again and put myself on a "timeline"
I guess its self protection.
Even though I know it's something I can't control, it's almost like I would rather sabotage my R before she could hurt me that bad again
I'm really losing patience
I'm trying not to
But I just got into a R talk with my W
At all times after I walked in on her pleasuring herself.
And I just couldn't let it go. What is wrong with me?
Knowing that I obviously interrupted her and I just felt like [censored].
Felt like I'm useless in this house.
I flat out asked her what are we doing? To which I got the "I don't want to talk about this right now" and I kept asking and pursuing. It was so bad
I even brought up how sorry I was for the verbal abuse from the past, etc
It was awful. She just kept saying I don't wanna talk right now and I kept pushing
It was like everything I've been working on went out the window.
I even asked have you thought about me in that way(sexually)?
Knowing dang well the answer would be no. It's like I was looking for pain so I could make it easier to want to leave this marriage
I know at this point that she wants nothing to do with me romantically.
I just feel like I'm still in this house to make her life easier
The problem is i know why she is like that and why her walls her up, yet I just feel like I'm losing patience
Damn I feel like giving up
I just went into her room to apologize for interrupting her
I informed her that I've decided to move out for a couple weeks
She once again said she didn't want to talk about this at 1am, but the time isn't going to make a difference. I'm so tired of living in this house like this. It's been 6 weeks and even though we get along much better I just feel like a roommate and friend. That's all
I know that I had my huge part in our marriage getting to this place. I realize I've made her "numb" and made her feel like she can't trust that I will change.
I wonder that myself. Can I change? I will continue to work on me and my issues.
Because I don't want to bring this into any more relationships in my life
So although I will work on me, I just feel like I can't do it here for now
Off to church this morning. Of course I'm second guessing everything I said to my wife about moving out. I look at my 6 year old son and I melt when I think about doing that to him.
I had a childhood that had no stability. All I want for him is a consistent stable childhood and I feel as if me moving out rips that away
He knows something is going on, but that would be really tough on him and I know it
CBT, it is incredible how close out sitch's are, even to the point we are both talking about separating.... It's so difficult trying to decide what would be best, I know I want more than anything to reconcile with my W, but at the same time I know I'm setting myself up for a lot of pain if it doesn't work out... Sometimes I just feel like if I say screw it and move on I'll be able to deal with the pain all at once and then move on instead of dragging it out.
Of course with your young S it is a different scenario, I feel for you man, I really do. I feel your pain, and am praying for you and your family.
I appreciate your thoughts and and prayers coconut.
My little guy is my driving force. If it wasn't for him i would have already moved out.
W and I spoke when I returned from church. I apologized for being irrational and wanting to talk in the heat of the moment last night. She understood more it seemed like.
We went to workout together and she gave me an early Father's Day present which was nice
Guess I'm back on same path
She really says she doesn't know because she is afraid that this is all an act and that the changes won't last. She is afraid to open up and get hurt again by me
Once again and I know this, it really is about time in my situation
I have to understand that and have patience
I was thinking as I've been reading a lot of other peoples threads. It seems to me like there really is a difference between a WW and WAW. It seems like when a OM is involved that you have to drop the rope, use LRT, things of this magnitude. Because every situation I read it only begins to change when the LBS uses these techniques. Once the OM is out of the picture it seems you can have different strategy, but as long as there is an OP then you can not and must not treat them as your spouse.
Just some observations I noticed
Hi cbtdad,
Sounds like you went through a crisis there. You're right -- the best course would have been not to bring up the bag in the car at all.
In your nightmare scenario she had a trunk full of your cash and was packing a bag to go spend a romantic weekend with some OM. Even if that were the case, there's nothing you can do about it.
That's the key thing -- no matter what she does, there's nothing you can do about it. Asking her about it only made her feel:
-- mistrusted
-- under the microscope
-- responsible for your happiness
All of those are kryptonite for romantic attraction.
If you then have an R discussion late at night, nothing good will come of it as you've seen. There is nothing worse than wanting to end a conversation and have the other person continue to push and push. It makes you feel trapped and anxious.
Saying that you're going to move out and then not doing it is extremely confusing. She now doesn't know what to expect from you. She may assume that you were threatening her, or that she's a failure, or you're trying to punish her. If you do decide to move out, I think you want to be clear about the reasons why and explain them to her in a calm and rational way.
You will continue to be triggered -- things will come up over and over again that will trigger you.
If you react to those triggers, even later, it's going to come across as an accusation.
That will then kill romantic attraction, you'll feel worse, and because you feel worse you'll be even more vigilant for triggers and around the wheel you go -- stuck and trapped.
The way to overcome triggers, as I'm sure you've found, is to feel 100% confident about your own contribution to the household and the relationship, and to feel that she would be a fool to leave you.
If you feel that way, then if she cheats or leaves it's because she's a fool, and not a negative reflection on you, or a statement that you're not worthy.
So here you are stuck -- you feel that your wife is not romantically attracted to you. That makes you feel guilty for your role in things, inadequate due to her perceived rejection, angry about the rejection, and resentful because on some level you feel that she owes you some support and affection as your wife and is withholding it for no good reason when she could so easily give it to you.
That "cocktail" of emotions is completely normal and understandable in your situation, but is also toxic to your relationship, and like a volcano will lead to earthquakes and eruptions that may feel beyond your ability to control.
That is why I question if "fixing this" is possible under the same roof.
People can't love you until you love yourself. You have to love yourself not only in general, but also in the context of this relationship, and right now you don't.
Living under the oppression of withheld affection makes it extremely difficult to love yourself.
I think getting some time apart may actually be a very good thing for you in the near term, provided you communicate what you're doing with compassion and care, and not even a hint of punishment or anger.
There is a book called "Should I Stay Or Go? : How Controlled Separation (CS) Can Save Your Marriage"
May be worth reading up on it just to understand it better as an option. You may need to "let your wine breathe" as they say rather than remaining under the cork.
Acc
As always thank you so much for your feedback ACC!!
I understand what you are saying and I think it's why I've thrown the "moving out" thing up to her. But you are right as usual. It was done out of emotion and not done in a calm and rational way. And sure enough when I woke up and the emotions settled that is not what I wanted. The last thing I want to do is move out. I know it would be best for me, but not for son. He even told me Saturday night when I got home from work that he was scared I wasn't coming home. Told W the same thing Sunday.
So I'm doing everything I can to prevent that.
But you are dead on when you talk about triggers. I've gotten so much better at them over the last 6 weeks, but still a long way to go clearly.
W and I had a good conversation Sunday morning when I got back from church. I didn't let it go on too long and we were in a good place when it was over.
I know that staying at home is the best possible option if I can control the triggers and emotions. I'm realizing because of my part in this that it is just going to take time. My goal is to become that person only a fool would leave, but to do it under the same roof for my son. If I break down and truly believe that that can't happen then I will move out.
After Saturday late night talk and Thursday bag incident I decided to actually right down goals in my phone and will read them every day. They are as follows:
1. I will not snoop
- no checking bill
- no checking electronics
- no checking car
Nothing! No snooping!
2. No R talk outside MC office
- zero
- no temp checking
- nothing! No R talk at all!
3. Listen, validate and emphasize
- look at people in eye when talking
- DO NOT interrupt
4. Spend quality time with S
- outside the house
- swim
- go eat out
5. Get back to having fun
- GAL
- golf
- make new friends
- meetup.com
6. No mind reading
- no one event!
- good or bad
- its a marathon not a sprint
So that's it for now. I plan on reading and sticking to these goals. I understand that this is about me becoming a better person. I do believe I can do that under the same roof. I think I've come a long ways already, but I have had a few setbacks for sure.
I do now completely understand why we got to this point. There is no question I was verbally abusive and controlling.
I use to think verbal abuse was just yelling at someone and calling them names. But now I know better, and now that I know that I am determined to fix me and become the man I know I can be
Good stuff -- one thing I read said that if you make rules for yourself, it's good to also have consequences for breaking your rules. For instance, this guy decided that if he broke a rule during the day he would have to do 10 burpees for each rule he broke, and he hated doing burpees. The consequences are a way to train yourself that these things are not to be taken lightly!
Can you create some consequences?
Regarding your comments on stability for your son, it's perfectly possible to offer him stability while living separately. As long as there are routines and he knows what to expect, he will feel stable. He's worried you're going to leave and never come back -- he wouldn't necessarily feel that way if he knew you were staying somewhere else and understood when he would see you. The alternative to cohabitating doesn't have to be total parenting carnage -- there are many ways to manage the situation where S will be fine.
I do believe that kids are best served by having an intact family and two loving parents. I also know that kids can get very messed up by living with two people under the same roof who don't have a functional relationship. A great thing I heard is that kids are messed up by bad parenting, not by divorce, and bad parenting can happen within a marriage or outside of one.
Acc
LOL
I will definitely be thinking of some consequences. I think for now running a mile will be my punishment. I do not like burpees, but I hate running. I would much rather lift than anything else.
I do know that the biggest consequence will be me needing space if I don't learn how to handle the triggers better.
I agree with you that there can be stability if I move out. We both agree that staying in the marriage just for him is not good. It's not want either of us want. However, if I we can do it under the same roof then that is best for him now. I guess that's what I keep looking at. Aside from the couple backsteps we are getting a long better than we have in 6 or 7 months. She text me, we communicate, we laugh, we have fun, its actually quite good except for the romantic stuff.
In the end I keep just taking it a little at a time. If it gets to a point were there is resentment, anger, fighting, etc
Then I'm moving out plain and simple
What is the book you are reading if you don't mind me asking?
There are two books that I have been reading
The first is ...
I first ordered this book to see what my W was feeling and experiencing. It is hard to read now, realizing how much hurt I have done and I didn't even realize it. I'm only half way through and its already touched me in so many ways
I just picked up ... I'm actually RE-reading the DR book for a second time right now. with more writing, and journaling involved, as I don't want to be steered in too many different directions by conflicting ideas in books. (like going to two therapists who are each telling you something opposite of the other to do).
When I first read DR, I was that dumb, hopeful guy who thought this would pass... re-reading it a second time, now that I've made some progress, is actually much different in key areas. I think differently about what I'm reading.
I don't think there is anything wrong with "backout out" on your spew of moving out in the heat of the moment. It should be perfectly fine to own your mistake and just call it what it is.
cbtdad,
From all the things you've written it *does* feel to me like your W wants this to work out, and that's a blessing for sure. Take my and everyone else's advice with a grain of salt, you know your sitch best and we're here to support you.
I hope you navigate this and both come out very happy in the end.
Acc
Thanks Acc. I do feel as though she would like things to workout as well
I'm going by her actions not her words. Her words still says she doesn't know what she wants, but her actions are very positive
I was proud of myself for having patience and succeeding at a goal last night
W went out bowling for a friends bday. She said she was only going to go for an hour which I knew wouldn't be possible. She was gone for about 2 hours and I definitely wanted to check phone bill, but I was able to reread my goals and remind myself that it doesn't matter what she is doing and that I can't control that if it was something bad anyways
She texted me not too long after I was having those thoughts and said she was on her way home. I just replied ok
I was proud of myself for having patience and succeeding at a goal last night.
I definitely wanted to check phone bill.
cbt - Hey man, This is awesome. Your familiar with my thread, so I can directly relate. I was snooping a lot, watching the joint checking, watching the phone bill, and there is something very satisfying about killing that habit. In the very instant it's bothering you, it's based on want/fear/control, and we know those are not feelings we should be acting on.
I hope you find the same gratitude I've find in NOT snooping. What it comes down to, is that our WW's are going to what they are going to do, whether we know about it or not. My W actually started calling OM (EA) 5x more once I confronted her about the phone bill evidence. Probably just to make me mad, and it worked... for about 3 days. I haven't looked at the bill since last thursday (4 days, wow? haha), and I haven't regretted it one bit.
cbt, it only causes more hurt to us in a time where the last thing we need is more hurt, and more fuel to feed our angry, which we are trying to contain.
Thanks betterm
I really do feel good about be when I don't snoop. I know it only causes problems and hurt so I don't need to be doing it period
Nothing good comes from snooping
Had a great session with my IC/life coach today
We discussed the things I've been working on and learning. Over the last couple weeks I've really got better at recognizing the triggers. Not perfect obviously but much better. We discussed examples and how I've backed away from triggers and done better.
I've also begun to notice the difference between rational and irrational thoughts and anxiety. These things are crucial to coping with my emotions
One of the things that came up was the fact that I am working on me. That we aren't working on anything together. If we were working on it together we would be wearing our wedding rings and staying in same bedroom
Right now we are learning to be friends again and that's what we should be doing
What a great day yesterday!!!
Went to IC/life coach in the morning. Had a great session with her. Then I took my son to the library and we read a few books and checked out a couple more to take home. Then my neighbor and I took the kids to pool and played with them for a while. We decided to dinner at our house for the evening so I text W, more on that in a bit.
Went to workout at early evening and W came straight from work and met me there. We had a great workout. One of the trainers(very cute girl btw), said that we were her relationship goals. bahahahahaha
That is how well we are interacting with each other. Joking around and having fun together
Neighbors came over for dinner and we had a good time. W invited a couple friends of hers that I've met a few times to concert with us in August. Now we are making plans together in August not just July. hahahaha
I guess we were work on the marriage at some point since she keeps making all these future plans with me lol
Back to the text with W about dinner. It went like this:
cbtdad: "Doing dinner at our house. That ok?"
W: "Tonight?"
cbtdad: "Yes"
W: "Whatever"
cbtdad: "I don't like "whatever" Ok or not ok?"
W: "You are telling me not asking but seriously I don't care"
cbtdad: "That's a good point. Thank you for pointing that out. Is it ok if we do dinner at our house tonight?"
W: "yea"
I didn't even realize that until she pointed it out. Those are the things I am working on. One step at a time
Yes, subtle word choice can have a huge impact on a relationship. So much lies in the nuance. Good for you!
Thanks Acc!
I'm trying to watch the things I say and do for sure
It's crazy that I was doing so many of these things without realizing it. But now that I know, it's a great feeling to know what I need to work on me for whether the marriage works out or not
Thanks Acc!
I'm trying to watch the things I say and do for sure. It's crazy that I was doing so many of these things without realizing it.
It really is. That's our subconscious behavior taking over and using our "shortcuts" that we've created in our lives to cancel out the "pointless stuff". We all create the shortcuts, we all create the patterns, and it's not really a bad thing (actually a good thing), it's what makes us who we are, it makes is different. The hard part is finding those bad behaviors and working on ways to transform them into something positive. I think you're on the right track.
I have more problems with this in face-to-face scenarios, as I don't have any way to "review" things before they've been said. In text, one way to help, is to be sure and read each word, each sentence, aloud, from the recipients point of view... before you send it! However, if you're an over-analyzer (like me), this can lead to a simple 7 word text, to be erased and re-written 30 times before you send it. sorry if i complicated things
Thanks Acc!
I'm trying to watch the things I say and do for sure. It's crazy that I was doing so many of these things without realizing it.
I have more problems with this in face-to-face scenarios, as I don't have any way to "review" things before they've been said. In text, one way to help, is to be sure and read each word, each sentence, aloud, from the recipients point of view... before you send it! However, if you're an over-analyzer (like me), this can lead to a simple 7 word text, to be erased and re-written 30 times before you send it. sorry if i complicated things
LOL I have the exact same problem... I almost prefer talking to her over text/IM now then when I do have those rare face to face encounters. I suppose this is something we all need to work on though as part of GAL/self improvement not? maybe something to practice with a coach/IC?
So W is drinking it up again tonight
She also did some day drinking at the house on Saturday. I got home from work and she was kind of lit up.
She was talking about people from work, venting, giving a lot of her opinion on this and that. And I just sat there for like 20 mins and let her talk without interrupting. I was so proud of myself!!! I used great facial expressions and truly listened. I validated when needed and emphasized when need as well
Go me!!
However I am watching this drinking thing.
We shall see, but it's something I will monitor
Well I will let y'all know my mileage time when I get home this evening.
I went to go online to pay cell phone bill and I snooped.
Of course nothing to find there. But my punishment for breaking one of my goals is to run
So I will run 2 miles when I get home
It had been more than 4 days. Time to reset clock
Well I will let y'all know my mileage time when I get home this evening.
I went to go online to pay cell phone bill and I snooped.
Of course nothing to find there. But my punishment for breaking one of my goals is to run
So I will run 2 miles when I get home
It had been more than 4 days. Time to reset clock
Haha, us paying a huge price for what they did (I'm not saying we didn't do anything, but she has no interest in snooping for what I did in MR) never ends... I don't run, but I think I'll go do 10 miles on my bike since I purposely went a little out of the way (1 block) to drive by the station when she was there...
LOL Cnut!!
I know what you mean
But like I meant to say on your post. I wasn't all my fault, but I own my part.
the no snooping goal I put on myself is for me. Not to try and catch her doing anything. It's me trying to learn that I have no control over that. Zero. I do have control over my actions.
That's what I'm trying to train myself.
Damn its hard trying to be a good person!!
cbtdad,
Catching up on some threads that have chimed in for me..agree it is hard when we can only control our own actions.
I like the idea of having consequences for breaking goals. I should try that for not reacting to things. Frustrating when stumble.
My H has been drinking more socially lately and then buying the stuff to make at home. He will go through most within weekend. Never did that before.
Ran 2.02 miles 21:37 according to my Nike running app
I hate running.
But worse is the feeling I had after snooping today. It made me feel terrible earlier
W and I had a MC session this morning. No big grand changes or anything. We are both living in the now for the moment. Still separate bedrooms. Still no wedding rings. So basically still not working on our marriage, but working on ourselves.
I did a lot of the talking since it had been a couple weeks since we had been there. And in those last two weeks I have learned so much about verbal and emotional abuse. I have learned things that I didn't even realize I was doing. I was controlling, critical, judging, and much more. I would define my W all the time. I thought she should know how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking. That I do know what she is feeling and thinking. I had built up this woman in my head that was an extension of me.
It's like I was blind and now I can see. I have been so happy the last couple weeks. I feel more free. I feel like a weight has been lifted. Like I now realize for once what the problem was and why I was doing the things I was doing. Also realizing the things that I didn't know I was doing, but why I was doing them
So I have I talked a lot and got out things I have been working on the MC asked W what she thought. I will do my best to sum up a lot of her responses today.
She said she sees that, but that she has too much on her plate to worry about that right now. That between school, her moms cancer and other issues that her plate is full.
She said she is just living day to day and that she wakes up and does it all over again. She went on to say that this is why she has said 6 weeks ago that she didn't have any fight left right now.
So I turned to her asked her if she is concerned that if she agreed "we were working on things" that I would overwhelm her.
She said, "yeah basically"
What I think she means is that I can be exhausting. That I will just keep going and going like I did Saturday night. She is right and that is something I'm working on.
She said she gets anxiety over if she is doing something wrong.
Like Tuesday morning I text her and told her that our neighbor was out bowling at the same place she was. She brought that up and said, "As soon as I got that text I knew you were thinking I wasn't really bowling because neighbor didn't see me. I started freaking out thinking crap I gave friend cash who paid for the games and I don't have proof to show him I was there"
I told her she was right. That crossed my mind. But I didn't bring that up to her and let her know that I was thinking about that. I told her that that is one of the things I am learning. I can't control what I think, but I can control how I respond.
She understood that and nodded.
I then asked her if when she use to come home she would start getting anxiety right she pulled in, etc.
She said absolutely and that things would be great at the house, but then she felt like she had to walk on eggshells or that we would start fighting.
This was just a small summary of the session.
Overall it went well. There is no question that I am just in a holding pattern working on me. That's a;; I can do until she thinks that the changes I am making can last and are real.
I will continue my goals each and every day, and have consequences when I mess up
Sounds generally like MC wasn't a bad session at all. Your W is obviously still holding out and watching you to see how things progress until she makes the move to work on MR.
It's not that I don't believe your W when she says "her plate is full", but probably more so that she is fearful of you returning to your old patterns (the bowling alley anxiety shows this). Cut back on the "Saturday night" occurrences and I think your on a good path to showing consistency, which is what you need (and she needs) to grow into what you want to become.
Curious, did you discuss and of your personal goals in detail during the MC? Or is that something your keeping to yourself? If she knows exactly what your working on, it's easier for her to pick you apart as soon as you have one minor fallback.
We did discuss some of that. She doesn't know my goals like I posted here the other day. But I did tell her my goal is to become the person that she doesn't have to have anxiety about when I walk in the house. I even said the following, "one of my concerns is being triggered and having my emotions flare up and W saying see he wont change I give up." The MC did a great of explaining that there will be flare ups. It really couldn't have gone better in that regard. We discussed triggers and everything. I don't think she is expecting me to be perfect all the time. I do believe its about the consistent progress.
honestly my only concern is the fact that I feel like I've left her vulnerable again. But I can't control that. I'm just going to keep doing me
Just wanted to post a little text exchange between W and I
I usually would dig deeper and "pounce" as I call it
So this is getting better for me.
cbtdad: "How's your school stuff going?"
W: "$hitty. And I feel like I'm getting sick"
cbtdad: "That stinks. What are you feeling?"
W: "Nothing. What do you need"
cbtdad: "Nothing. Sorry for asking"
cbtdad: "Would you like me to cancel tonight?"
W:"No"
I probably didn't need to throw in the sorry for asking part.
I was a little irritated.
But normally I would have gone full hulk mode through text because I read that as her coming off as a witch
We have plans tonight with another couple for dinner. No kids. Just the 4 of us out on the town.
We'll see how that goes
What do you need is kind of a rough and rude response... I probably wouldn't have responded properly either. My stance lately is if I'm not sure what to say/respond, I don't respond at all. All you did was show her your admitting you shouldn't have been asking I guess? A simple, 'nothing, I'll talk to ya later' might have been better, but you already know that...
Thanks betterm!
You are so right. I know better. Lol
When
I asked what she "was feeling" I meant how is she feeling sick
She was nice when I got home and was making jokes about her brain not working well while studying and wanting to trade in our S for another.
I didn't validate that. Haha
She is getting ready right now
Looking so hot
My goal tonight is to sit back and let her talk and me listen
Every other time we go out with couples I'm the type A and tend to dominate the conversation
Tonight I will not interrupt and let her be the star that I think she can be
Thanks betterm!
She is getting ready right now
Looking so hot
I remember thinking this when my W showed up before "going golfing" (something new she started to find an escape). She looked GOOOOD. haha, but I know that I can't think that way right now, as it could lead to pursuant behavior. She is 'hot', but I still have emotions attached to that hotness, and I'm trying not to associate anything that can tie to the 'old us'
My goal tonight is to sit back and let her talk and me listen
Every other time we go out with couples I'm the type A and tend to dominate the conversation
Tonight I will not interrupt and let her be the star that I think she can be
I'm the same way, I've been working hard to not interrupt ANYONE during conversation, practicing this at work, family, events, etc. I have severe ADHD and take medication, but still struggle with wanting to 'jump in' and dominate conversation... It's a 180 I'm working on, and it sounds like you are too. Being patient, and listening is all part of the growth process, it truly does make you a better person. I wish you luck in this goal. You got it.
Nothing really new to report.
Spent a lot of time with the W over the past few days. Went out to dinner with her and another couple Saturday night. We had a great time. I made sure I just listened to her and didn't "control" the conversation. Think I did really well.
Sunday we went to baseball game with our S and a friend of hers. Another great time
Last night she asked if I wanted to start watching the new season of House of Cards. I have Netflix set up in our bedroom. So we watched a couple episodes in the bed. Then I went back to guest room and went to sleep.
IC thinks this is still the right move for me. Give her the space she needs and let her come to me when she is ready. She says that my verbal and emotional abuse wore down W and she became numb. Bottom line is it will take time before she believes that the changes I am making will last.
So for now I continue to actually be very happy with me and the progress I'm making. I'm also very happy with the way W and I are getting along and communicating. But of course in the end I want more. For now though I will continue to plug away and not push
Good for you CBT, I can imagine how difficult it is to lay in bed with W, I'm sure more than what u were watching was on your mind, and then get up and go to another bedroom... But I'll tell you, there were several times after we started piecing that I wished I could go stay in another room without it causing ripples..
One good thing about being in separate rooms is that when you get to the point of really moving forward, your probably more likely to get hysterical bonding... Although we ML once, we are just messing around occasionally, and it is really hard not closing the deal... I feel like I could have sex 5 times a day for the next week and that still wouldn't be enough right now, and I imagine the way things are going, I won't ever get that.
Thanks Cnut!
Shockingly its not as difficult as it once was. I don't expect anything now. For the first few weeks I would expect some sort of sexual tension or something, but now I have zero expectations.
I can say I find myself tugging back and forth at wanting things to work out. Even though we are getting along great I do wonder if we are only delaying the inevitable anyways. We both come from such troubled backgrounds and its so much to overcome. I am doing all the work on me and fixing my part. At some point she will need to go see IC and work on her for us to have a good marriage. And that's what I want. A good marriage. A marriage where both partners are equal and compromise. A marriage were I feel loved when I get home. A partner who wants to give me a hug and a kiss when she sees me.
So much is going to have to happen in the long run for this to work.
So for now, I continue to work on me everyday.
One thing I do realize now is that I do believe I can stay in the house for a long time regardless of the outcome
Jeez, I just read Cadet's thread saying most folks only begin to reconcile after about 9 months. Gulp!
WW has said no to any kind of counseling, but has admitted that if we tried we'd have to do it. Her saying no just said to me she's scared and wants to take what she thinks is the easy way out. We had agreed to revisit in July, but she hasn't mentioned anything in a while and as I'm starting to get excited about my changes I don't see any reason to rush any discussions.
I know I'll be up and down, but I feel like the stock market. Trending upwards. I'm in such a better place today than I have been in a long time. I'm allowed to be me without being scared of saying/doing the wrong thing. I'm not worrying about what she's doing or thinking.
You sound like you're in a pretty good place, just hoping W works on her end. I'm thinking that trying to look down the road will only stress you out, just try to focus on and enjoy today as much as you can. You'll know when W doesn't want to give it a real chance I think. You're doing really well.
Ok so this will be one of my longer posts. Just feel like getting some stuff out if you know what I mean. I think many of you on this board do:)
Everything has been going good. I got home late last night from work and W was in bedroom. I can tell she was visibly upset. The old me would have pushed and pushed to ask her what is wrong. I could tell she didn't want to talk about it and I had no idea what is was. So I just said, "If you need somebody to listen you just let me know". She just gave me the thumbs up and I said goodnight.
Woke up this morning. We were supposed to workout together. So I went to wake her up to see if she was still going. She said no. She said I need to setup my own dates with trainer. I said, do you plan on paying for that? She responded no.
I didn't say it mean or angry at all. I think it was just me saying I'm not going to pay for you to go to personal trainer when we aren't working on marriage. That's internally though.
So I go downstairs and eat some breakfast. Go back up to room to brush my teeth before leaving. At this point she is awake and on her Ipad. I just asked her if everything was ok. She said she knows I don't understand, but she is really stressed about paramedic school. That she almost had an anxiety attack last night. I just listened and validated. She then said its not about you. I said I know and that that's why I said if she just needed someone to listen to her that I would be here.
Fast forward to a little later. We were taking our S to reading evaluation because we are worried that he may be dyslexic.
While we were waiting she said she had talked to her dad yesterday and was telling her dad that she thought we would be in the house for another year. Which brought up the fact that next year would be 10 years. Six months ago W use to say in MC all the time that her goal no matter what would be to make it 10 years. So I said, wow 10 years. She says, well regardless of what happens she feels we've done good making it this far compared to others. That's discouraging to me. To me the fact that 6 months ago she was saying 10 years and would fight no matter what, now she seems like oh well we tried. Mindreading I know.
So we go in to meet with person doing evaluation.
Sure enough, like we were concerned, he looks like he has some ADD possible and definitely behind on reading.
So on way home I could tell the S stuff was bothering her. I asked her what she was thinking about. She didn't say anything and I could tell she was about to cry. I once again didn't press.
When we got out of car and S went inside she started to cry as she walked to her garden. I tried to hug her and she said she didn't need that right now. She says that she is just stressed and now she feels like she is leaving a lot on me and not doing her part since she is in paramedic school. I once again did my best to validate and listen. I then walked away before I headed to work and told her to have a good day. On my way to work I was really thinking about how stressed she seemed.
I sent the following text and the good thing is I di it without expecting any reply. That was a good feeling. It was as follows:
cbtdad: "I wanted to let you know that I think you are doing a great job handling everything. I understand you feel stressed and that you feel you are leaving me to deal with a lot. It's ok. I don't feel that you are. I feel like we can handle this. I may not be able to help with the school work but I'll do my best to make the household less stressed for you, that I promise. Hang in there. You are extremely smart and work hard. you gonna do great"
W: "Thanks. Still [censored] but it helps knowing you aren't holding it against me"
cbtdad: "There is nothing to hold against you. I hate that you feel that way. You do plenty! Just focus on what you need to and anytime you need help with something just ask. Might not always be able to do it, but at least ask"
So anyways I think I've come a long way compared to how I use to handle things. Much like coconut I have learned to recognize the triggers and learn how to process it before I go at it with my emotions. It's definitely tough because I feel like my W's attention is elsewhere at times. But honestly I don't know if its an OM or just the fact for the first time I am seeing her as individual with her own emotions and feelings. Either way it's something that I can't control at the moment. I will continue on my path and continue to be the best cbtdad I can
W and I had a good workout this morning
She's off to work for the day and I'm keeping S home from camp today
We are gonna go see the Angry birds movie then do a little swimming then has his first karate class this evening
I'll finish the evening off with a nice bottle of red and good thick ribeye
Gonna be a good day!
I was reading what Sandi wrote on RSG's thread about how a WW views friendship with her H
That's so much like I feel right now in my situation. I'm doing all the things that she likes and wants in a marriage. Acts of service is her love language
However mine is physical touch. Which definitively isn't happening and has happened for a couple months.
It's crazy how good things are right now with us except for this part
Actually except for the physical touch part I would say this is what I would want in our marriage. Hopefully that part comes around
Cbt, is there any touching at all with you two? I remember the first time my wife touched me in months was when we took her mom out to dinner, she put her hand on my leg and rubbed it a little, I put my arm around her and it was nice. Then nothing after we got home, and for days after. I then started little non sexual touches, like putting my hand gently on her arm for a few seconds, a short rub of her back while walking next to her, it took time but she slowly opened up to it.
Now things are starting to really move forward, it's amazing what waking her up in the morning with a nice back/body rub will do. We've now ML more in the last week than we did in the previous year. It still seems more physical than emotional, but it's been nice, I just have to continue building the emotional connection.
Cbt, is there any touching at all with you two? I remember the first time my wife touched me in months was when we took her mom out to dinner, she put her hand on my leg and rubbed it a little, I put my arm around her and it was nice. Then nothing after we got home, and for days after. I then started little non sexual touches, like putting my hand gently on her arm for a few seconds, a short rub of her back while walking next to her, it took time but she slowly opened up to it.
I agree with Coconut, it needs to start with small, non-sexual touches. I think when Coconut's W touched his leg, she felt safe b/c they were in public and probably knew he wasn't going to have sex right then & there. Neither was she signaling him to expect it later, which I can understand confuses men. I think everything is related to sex, for men.
What I could not make my H understand, is that when there has not been any intimacy for a very long, and then he would walk up behind me (as I was washing dishes) and cram his hands down my pants.........it would make me angry, instead of turning me on. Then he got angry b/c I wasn't responding the way he thought I should. Granted, there were problems between us, but this was not how to resolve it. If he had slowly worked up to making such a bold move, then he would have seen better results. But to be completely void of any kind of touching for months.........and then walk up behind me and stick both hands down my pants? Well, it didn't work for me, and I doubt I am that abnormal.......even if my H use to think I was (thanks to porn and what he saw acted out in movies).
Another thing that would happen in our earlier years, is when we would be over at my parents and I would see him acting like he did before we got M. I really liked him acting the way he did before we were M, and missed that guy a lot. It would cause me to be very flirty with him, and you would think he could have figured it out. I mean, if I acted turned on.......then why wouldn't he act that way when we got home? Nope, he told me he thought I was just trying to turn him on b/c I knew he couldn't do anything about it right then & there. He was partly right. I was enjoying the flirting, and it was warming me up and the fact we couldn't do something right then added to the sexual tension, for me. However, his attitude about it was completely different than mine. And, what he told me after we got home, killed it dead for me. See how differently men and women think about sex?
I think it should be required that couples take a course in his needs and her needs, before they get a M license.
Thanks for stopping by Sandi!
And thank you Cnut!
Sandi that last sentence you wrote couldn't be more right. It made me laugh. Isn't that why men are from mars and women are from venus. haha
We haven't had in contact like that since a few days before the BD. That was the last time we ML. Since then I have been in guest bedroom. At first we were kind of distant in the house. Now we are still in separate bedrooms, but other than physical contact and being in different bedrooms you would think we are a happily married couple right now. I will say its taken some time to feel that way and I guess its a good thing.
Last time around this block I had a WW, this time I'm pretty sure just a WAW who was tired of my verbal and emotional abuse.
Yes I will admit that now. I didn't realize I was that person until I found a very important book by Patricia Evans.
Now I know. And it has changed me and will change my life. Hopefully with my current W in it. If not then I know I will be a better man regardless.
Last time around I didn't realize who I was and what the real issue was so it surfaced again.
My IC who has helped a lot says that she became numb emotionally and that it's going to take some time to open up
She has said in MC that she sees progress but is skeptical
I'm just trying to work on me and get better everyday
I'm hoping the way things are going that its a good sign, but I still don't know. Only time will tell.
It is getting better, but as someone whos LL is physical touch this is taking a lot of patience
Jeez, I just read Cadet's thread saying most folks only begin to reconcile after about 9 months. Gulp!
It's very rare to see it happen in less time (without relapses), but I don't think people can measure their time frame with someone else's. The point is that it always takes longer than the LBS ever thought it would when he first arrives on the board.
No question about it. I try and help others in their threads who are dealing with a WW. And try to let them know how long it takes. In my situation the first time around WW and I started piecing too soon. And because of that I didn't get to the root of problem and neither did she. If I had to do over again I would have taken more time apart. I'm not rushing anything this time around and just doing my best to live in the moment and continue to work on me
So W and I are sitting on back deck just discussing things. We were mainly talking about our 6 year old son and how much he has been acting out lately.
We took him for a reading test last week and they suggested that he may have ADD. So we have an appointment now for that at the end of July. Anyways in all of this discussion she brought up how stressful everything is right now. I asked what she meant. She said the only things she cares about over the next year are finishing paramedic school and our S. She said that our neighbor asked what about our marriage and she said she told her that she is so stressed about school and our son that she can only focus on that right now.
I definitely felt myself getting upset but I just continued to listen as she said that she told neighbor that I understood. And that I realize that's how she is and that she can't have too much on her plate at once.
She went on to start talking about how she is so stressed about paramedic school because she has never wanted anything this bad. That that is all she wants.
It was so hard to just see there and listen and validate her feelings. I want her to want this marriage. I want her to put the same effort into me as she is school.
She is just sitting in front of me listening to music now and drinking wine.
We have MC session tomorrow so I guess I will wait to till then
On a positive note she did say she would have "cracked" by now if i wasn't being so helpful right now
But that's what I don't like at the same time. Makes me feel like I'm just being used or that I'm plan B
Well, that sounds EXACTLY like my old lady. She can only think about 2 things: S and work. I don't know if you're familiar, but my S requires speech therapy and to a lesser extent occupational therapy. She was frustrated that I didn't understand anything, because I was working while she was talking to therapists and she wouldn't/couldn't communicate effectively to me. "What did they say?" "I don't know, you'd have to call. They just say he needs XYZ." Ended up, she hated the occupational therapist (the person and the method) and I threw away a couple thousand dollars on it (she hasn't contributed a dime to therapy costs, we have always had separate accounts). He has, however, done amazingly well in speech and his therapist is excited about his progress.
Long story short, we could never get on the same page. I wanted to know what was discussed, why, what it would accomplish, costs. She didn't care about that, she was just scared and wanted me to go along with everything. That's how it started really.....
He's going to be in a new school in August, and for the first time Mommy won't be a quick walk down the stairs away. She'll feel a huge weight off her shoulders initially, but as time goes on she'll miss him terribly.
Anyway, I've hijacked your thread! I just know exactly what you're talking about. If you communicate effectively, and work as hard as you can to help your S, you'll grow closer. At least that's what I think. That's actually the thing that gives me the most hope, our S bringing us back together. She loves him dearly, but is so stressed out and tired she can't take care of him like she used to. It's only been a month so I can't expect her to run to me, but she used to say I didn't do anything. She's slowly figuring out that just being there is a HUGE job. Not only that, but I'm 10 times the day I am today that I was 18mos ago.
I do know how you feel about the plan B thing as well. But, if you try to force the M stuff over her class and especially S, it won't go well. Don't get frustrated (easy for me to say right!) just keep plugging away!
That would be 10x the DAD, not day!
Keep your chin up cbtdad.
Keep doing the right thing.
Thanks surfer
That's what I need to keep thinking
Trying to stay positive and patient
I also really need to be careful and watch my words in MC session today
I can tell I'm on the edge of blowing up and getting frustrated
I'm getting agitated and wanting physical attention
Yes. Her actions will drive you mad. It's hard being nice when someone is being so obnoxious but WW's are really good at this whereas the LBH will want to hit out verbally or otherwise through frustration. You just keep your head mate.
If it's any consolation I am fuming right now as my WAW is strutting round the house all calm, texting God knows who, as I sit with the kids - once my D8's piano lesson is finished they will go to her house and I will be alone again.
You go through cycles of grief if you don't occupy yourself. I think there's a bit of devil makes work for idle hands and tongues.
I feel your pain. Keep your head. You can do it. Don't let her in your head - keep it occupied so it is not available for her.
I also really need to be careful and watch my words in MC session today
I can tell I'm on the edge of blowing up and getting frustrated
I'm getting agitated and wanting physical attention
You can do it!!!! Take deep breaths, wait before you speak!
cbtdad,
Everyone is so supportive! I just thought I'd offer up a suggestion.
I've been to several MC sessions and sometimes it can get really nasty. What you can do is use the MC session as an opportunity for a 180. When you walk into the MC's office, after everyone is seated, in a non-threaten manner move toward your wife and start humping her leg. Do that for about 30 seconds, then go back to your seat without saying anything.
I don't know what the results will be, but I'd like to know without actually trying it myself.
cbtdad, I completely understand your frustration. Being in a relationship with no sex or physical affection is torture and breeds resentment. That resentment can seep into your life in ways you didn't anticipate.
MWD sent out a marketing e-mail today that included the following:
"You've been fighting to make your marriage work. Be proud of yourself for your commitment to restoring the love in your relationship.
In the end, you can only do what you can do. Eventually, your spouse needs to get on board with your marriage-saving plan. You just have to make sure you've left no stone unturned."
While LBS's are always impatient, and there is a great tendency to want to be rewarded for our positive changes as soon as we make them, there is a reciprocal danger of being too patient and accepting too much.
It is not reasonable to expect you to stay in a sexless marriage. You may want to discuss with your IC how long you will tolerate that in your relationship. Have a timeline. When that timeline elapses you can always decide to extend it. If everything else is going well between you, perhaps its a subject to bring up in MC. It's never fun to rock the boat, or to invite difficulty when so much difficulty has found you all on its own.
My ex was low-desire in our marriage. She really had a non-existent sex drive of her own. If your drive is mismatched it creates all kinds of bad dynamics between you.
At some point I think you'll need to establish that a sexless marriage is not acceptable, and that your marriage needs to be a higher priority than "no priority" on her landscape.
Acc
Might I suggest the result may be more fun if you hump the counselor's leg instead of your W's.
cbt, I don't think your W's focus is all that different, even now while piecing, it is obvious that the priority in my W's life is the fire academy. It has really put me in a pretty crappy mood since our MC last night.
I'm just letting these emotions work there way through me, cause I wouldn't know what to say if I was to say something, or even what response I would hope to get.. so I will suck it up, and continue worrying about me until I'm ready decide if I'm done..
Hilarious Doodler. Just don't take cock you leg on the obligatory Yukka plant in the corner. That would be taking the pi55!
Cbt
One thing that helped me in MC was saying little. The MC usually spends time talking to the person with issues the most. It was '95% WAW time' at our sessions. I found this a comfort it felt like the MC was helping me to win her back and I could simply listen. It also made me realise I was not the problem in the way she was trying to make out/gas light. That stopped me getting wound up when she was machine gunning me too with 'he never, he always' type stuff.
Don't forget to focus and don't vilify your spouse. She is a person that has suffered because she has legitimate needs that have not been met (in her mind at very least) and has felt very alone. Perhaps even think of her as a child and being scared that can help to stop your blood boiling too. Good luck - you'll knock it out of the park.
First off Doodler I was laughing so out loud big time. I needed that. Thank you
Ok. I appreciate all the responses. MC is in a couple of hours. So let me say the things that I am feeling. Acc you hit a lot of it on the head as usual. I've put timelines on things. Everything has been going very well except for the physical touch arena. My LL is physical touch. So I don't feel like I'm getting any attention at all. Hers is Acts of service. I have stepped up big time in that area. So therefore I am feeling like I am being the husband she wants, but I don't feel like I have a wife at all. I feel like a friend, a roommate. I have been helping her a lot. I have been paying for us to workout together still, bills, dinner, cooking, and pretty much everything else that is involved in a happy marriage. Except that I am not getting what I need in return. I was going to give this route until mid july. That is when she is done with her first round of classes. So my timeline was basically going to be through July.
But after last night hearing her say that she only cares about S and school for the next year has me pondering that. I am beginning to feel as if I'm her "leg up" or plan B
That she wants to hold me here till she is done with that.
I know that is mind reading, but that's what I am feeling.
The other thing you mentioned was her sex drive. You mentioned her how it can cause a lot of problems. And it certainly has. In the past couple months I think she has been masturbating a lot more. It makes me wonder if she is doing this as an escape or does she have an increased drive from someone else. That is starting to creep in my head again.
I know when I snooped back in May that there was nothing. If there was she was hiding it extremely well and not telling her very best friends. Which would surprise me big time if she didn't share with at least one of them
I can't control that though. If there was then I would be done for sure.
I guess what I am wondering is should I bring this stuff up during MC right now or wait till she is done with class and see how it is next month. I don't want to feel like I am pushing. That would be more of the same
I wouldn't bring it up tonight, and I would probably discuss it with your IC or a DB coach first. As an LBS, as you know, you *do* have to put in a lot of one-sided effort for a long time. The important thing is to make sure that "long time" is not forever.
The challenge with bringing it up is that if she is physical with you only out of a sense of obligation, you'll know that and it won't be enough. You'll want her to *want* to be with you, and that's not something she can control.
Reinvigorating your sex life is something she needs to decide she wants to do, and getting there requires starting slowly with some building up to it. It's all about her mindset however. If she's not committed to it thinking that it's the best thing for both of you, you'll know and you won't be satisfied.
I would discuss with the IC first.
Acc
Just got done with session
It did come up
Wasn't awful
I will post more when able
Reinvigorating your sex life is something she needs to decide she wants to do, and getting there requires starting slowly with some building up to it. It's all about her mindset however. If she's not committed to it thinking that it's the best thing for both of you, you'll know and you won't be satisfied.
Acc
Just wanted to give my 2 cents on this, since I just went through it in the last two weeks. I asked my W where she was emotionally 2 or 3 times as far as being intimate (although we where touching non sexually at the time, which is further along than u are right now). She didn't get upset about me asking, but really couldn't answer, she could only say that she's getting closer (but who really knows how long it takes).
Anyway, about a week went by after the last conversation about it, and I started upping my game, rubbing a little more and did what I knew would turn her on physically and we had physical intamicy without the emotional attachment. I knew the emotional wasn't there and it did concern me a little afterwards, but I was satisfied (PT my LL as well). I then preceded to repeat that initiation for the next four days, my W nvr gave any negative feedback afterwards, and although I knew the emotional still wasn't there for her, I made sure the physical pleasure was, and we both enjoyed it and I was very satisfied. I did make inside jokes about it, sent funny memes about morning sex, etc., trying to make it lighthearted.
Anyway, I stopped initiating and went back to non sexual touching for the last 4 days, because I don't want her to feel pressured into satisfying my needs, but those few days filled my cup and allow me to try and fill her needs without torturing myself. I think it's good we got the awkward first time out of the way, and if I can hold out until she's emotionally ready I think it will be mind blowing next time.
CBT, have you discussed moving back into the MBR, or is that not something your ready for yet? Have you tried initiating non-sexual touching to see how she responds? I find a back rub while watching tv in the bedroom was very well received when I first attempted.
So MC session was more of the same. I did a lot of talking. W did a lot of facial expressions and listening. This is how it is with my W. It's very hard to get
Information out of her. Our MC knows this but actually does a very good job extracting things and speaking her "sarcasm"
Surfer, I meant to reply earlier and tell you this
I try hard to sit back and let her do all he talking, but that just doesn't happen with her
So anyways when MC asked W how the relationship was going she said that's she has no complaints. That she has a lot on her plate and that I haven't made it any more stressful which is a big improvement.
Finally W admitted that we are really working more on being partners and not really having a "relationship"
Which is funny because that's what I was about to bring up.
She said that she thinks this next year is really good for us so that I can focus on me and that she can focus on school and then we could see where we are
Acc, I saw your post after the session otherwise I wouldn't have even brought up the things I was thinking about. They did come out when discussing where I thought things were. I said it's really tough feeling like I'm being a husband to my W but that I don't feel like I'm in a relationship.
I discussed my concerns for the future, etc
I said that other than PT that I am extremely happy with everything else
W got kind of agitated at that. She said at one moment in the beginning of the session that I said how good things were and that I see progress, etc
But now I'm saying if I don't get that one tiny thing this won't work, etc
I hate that she sees it as a "small thing" I explained to her that pt is my love language and she knows that. So it's not a small thing to me.
She said she sees a lot of progress and that's why she is in MC.
Acc, I really think more than anything it's just gonna take more time than I thought just like Sandi talks about. I'm just going to have to take it week by week and go from there depending on how I feel I can last. I know I can't last in a sexless marriage forever. I think my next assessment will be at the end of July and I will talk with my IC about that
Cnut, I appreciate your post my friend.
Yes, we are still in separate rooms. PT is tough for my wife. She doesn't like massages, back rubs, holding hands, etc
Yes of course in beginning when she was courting me and the limerance was in full force then she was good with all that.
We haven't discussed me moving back in. I'm not sure I'm ready to
That is probably something I will shoot for at the end of July
I know my W has a lot of individual work to do for this to work as well
For now I will continue to do my part
W and I had a good night last night
Just hanging out and having some wine and listening to music on the back deck.
I really let her talk about school and her world a lot while I just listened
After MC session yesterday I really told myself just to dig in and see what happens
This morning we were working out together and I noticed she hasn't shaved her legs in a while
Oddly it was kind of comforting seeing that
My reasoning is that if she was having some hot and heavy affair I would assume that she would be shaving her legs. Not sure if that's weird that I'm thinking that
I guess it's comforting because honestly if there was an OM then I would be done
That's my boundary at the moment
Pretty simple
Nice job cbtdad. I'm glad you at least got the topic out in the open and I agree it will take quite a bit more time. It sounds like you're in a good place.
Acc
Thanks Acc
Yes, it came out in a way that I didn't need to "push it"
I've realized at this point that it's all about time
Hey Buddy, How's CBT doing these days? I've been away from forums, but wanted to swing by and say hi. It looks like you're still making progress, doing MC, etc...
One question, I might've missed a few posts, but it seems like after MC you post update and say you did most of the talking...
What happens in MC if you take sit silently and take a more passive role in the session?
Hey betterm! Thanks for stopping by. I've been following your posts and you seem to be doing fantastic. You now know the meaning of detachment! It's a great feeling isn't it?
I am doing great. Continuing to try and better myself everyday. I am really doing a lot of listening. Just listening and not trying to fix things. This is a huge 180 for me. It is actually nice to see W opening up more to me about life.
Now when we get in MC that is still tougher. W does not like to talk or express "feelings and emotions"
She has been like this for a long long time and it definitely stems from childhood. That's why I am taking the approach of working on me right now. Whatever she does right now isn't effecting me. It's nice to be detached.
She will have work to do on herself if this marriage is going to work. That I do know. So I will take the first step and hopefully this will get her taking small steps.
Only time will tell.
For now I am in a good place and really like where things are
Sounds like you are doing the right things, cbt. the detachment is something that's kind of whacky. I realized the more you "try" to detach or "actively detach", the tougher it is. The strange thing occured when I just stop "trying" to do XYZ, and just focused on other things, and then, BOOM, detached. of course, there are swings here and there, but it's all about being in control of yourself, your actions, when they arise.
It's good that you are listening more, I've taken this approach, not so much with my W, because she's still saying craaaaaazy sh1t quite regularly, but just to other people that are around in my life. co-workers, friends, neighbors, family, etc. it's really changed my perspective on how to be present for other people, something I've realized that I was not good at in the past. (I think you know, I suffer from severe ADHD and this can make things extremely difficult to "care" about what others have to say from time to time).
I hope your W sees the "steps" your making to better yourself, and follows your lead. In the beginning, this was something my W was not capable of even seeing, and recently she's even admitted a couple specific things that she's found about herself that she knows she needs to work on. Now, if she's actually going to do anything about it, who knows. But I've reached the point where if she comes home tomorrow, I'd be very cautious about and reconciliation talk, and I know that's going to throw her for another loop, and probably create a little friction again, but that's okay, I'm just doing me.
you've been a good friend through this, I like reading your progress, keep it up, cbt!
Thanks betterm
I do think W is seeing the "steps"
At least she says so in MC. But she is definitely skeptical and it's just gonna take time. It does seem more and more that things are headed in the right direction, but you never know.
Interesting thing today that kind of tested my mind frame.
I was cleaning out my gmail account and I came across emails to myself that I saved from 3 years ago. They were screen shots that I had taken from snooping when W was involved with OM
I must say it was very tough to go doen that path and see those again. I haven't deleted them yet and I don't know why.
Seeing them brought up some very tough memories of being lied to over and over.
I must say this time though that "pit in the stomach" feeling lasted less than a minute and I was over it.
So on top of the stress of paramedic school and our son looking like he will be diagnosed with ADD. My MIL has lung cancer.
She lives 8 hours away. My W is her medical power of attorney and has dealt with a lot between her sisters. Even though her sisters live where their mom does she doesn't speak to them
they all had a fallen out about 4 years ago over money.
Well she just sent me a screen shot of a text her brother sent her about how bad her mother is doing lately and that she is getting a lot weaker quickly. I know this is going to put an unbearable amount of stress on my W.
I responded to the text, "that [censored]. I'm so sorry. How are you feeling?"
So all I can do is try and be there for her and not add to the stress. That's the game plan
I just know that something like this can really effect a marriage, much less a marriage that is struggling at the moment
I'm sorry to hear about your MIL, I've recently gone through it with family members and it is devastating. I imagine this is going to put unbelievable stress on your W, not only having to be there for her mom, but also how that is going to interfere with her schooling,
Have you thought about what you are willing to do to help out? I would imagine being with your MIL so you can be the eyes and ears there for your W when she can't be there would go a long way. But that is a lot to do, and would be a lot of your W to ask of you.
I agree with your last statement of not adding to the stress, this would not be an ideal time for R talks, but I also don't think it would be the time for your W to stop counseling, I dont think that 1 HR a week would be too much to devote to you two.
I will keep your MIL in my prayers.
Thanks for the prayers and thoughts Cnut
I didn't end up getting off work till around 7
W asked if I would like to join her and another friend of ours for dinner
I told her yes, I was on my way.
Well I got stuck behind a wreck and told her
To go she was without me so they wouldn't have to wait
She said she would order. I said no, I don't want y'all to have to wait
She then said, "ok fine"
I said, "sorry if your mad. Just didn't want y'all to have to wait"
Anyways fast forward and hour and she gets home
We barely say anything to each other. Not because I'm mad, im just tired and she was out in garden.
Anyways I go upstairs and ask if she talked to her brother and mom.
She said no. Said she just couldn't deal with it.
I just said, lobviously you don't want to discuss it. Good night"
This is the women I am married to. She just buries her feelings and emotions.
She doesn't talk about these things.
It's why I've said so many times now that if she doesn't work on herself and these
Issues that it will never work
We won't be able to be happy
I do want to help however I can. But if she doesn't want to discuss it then I'm not sure what I can do
Just be really careful with your choice of words, obviously you don't want to talk about it, does not come across as caring or understanding. My opinion is your W has the right to process her emotions on this, everyone deals with the stress of major illness and death differently, and I personally think you need to validate that she does have emotions about it, and let her know you're there if she needs you. Something like "I understand that this adds a lot on your plate, I am here if you would like to talk about it, but for now I will give you space to work through your emotions".
I understand what you are saying about the negative aspect of bottling up emotions, but I personally think death falls outside the "we need to share to have a healthy M". I think death and illness is more of a personal process. At least it is for me.
Yeah I noticed that last night.
I apologized this morning for being "dicki$h"
Last night I was able to say something like that before I went to bed
I said, "It's got to be tough having so much on your plate right now. I understand you may not want to discuss it right now, but I just wanted let you know I'm here to listen when you need it"
So we talked and joked about other things
Anyways this morning I woke up to a text that said, "let's go have breakfast somewhere"
I said ok
We went to breakfast and then went shopping for fireworks
Afterwards we went looking at houses around us in new neighborhoods and she talked about moving.
Crazy. she wants to look at newer houses together, etc
But we are still in separate bedrooms
I do feel things are getting closer
I know she needs to trust me emotionally before the physical stuff is gonna happen so I'm not pushing anything
I think I'm gonna bring up in MC next session that a goal should be to be back in same bedroom by the end of the month
We shall see
Nice job Cbt, sounds just like something I would of said, lol. Anyway, it's funny how when your no longer fighting for your life, when you don't feel like your whole world hangs in the balance and that a single comment or misstep could destroy everything, how when that's not happening you start to find yourself going back into old routines (almost taking things for granted).
Just a few weeks ago I would of done anything to have my W invite me to do something (even shopping that I despise), but now that things are leveling out I find myself having to kinda talk myself into wanting to go. I think part of that is my continuous effort to detach (which has come a long way), but the other part is falling back into the old me that just didn't mind time alone.
Anyway, I think putting a time frame on sharing a bedroom, or identifying what you both want first for that to happen, is a good idea. I think sharing the MBR, even without physical contact, goes a long way to building the emotional intamicy in a M.
Son sitting on couch watching Inside Out. W sitting on couch next to me looking at houses on the inernet and saying things like, "we wouldn't like this" and "we can get more house in this area"
Meantime we haven't had sex in over 3 months and are staying in separate bedrooms
Love WAW mentalities. They certainly can make things interesting
Had a pretty good weekend.
Still finding it humorous that W is looking at houses for "us"
Both of us had to work on the 4th, but we got off and had some friends over for burgers and shot off a ton of fireworks. I love blowing stuff up!
Yesterday morning we kind of got into it a little bit. It wasn't anything important. I think it was just me being frustrated with this situation. I feel like I am pulling the entire rope. That I am doing all the work and not seeing the results I need. I know this is the patience part.
But in the end I hugged her and she actually let it happen and didn't pull away but leaned in
There definitely has been smaller physical contact lately so that's good. I'm not pushing that too much though. She will be done next week with her first semester of paramedic school and that should take some stress off.
This morning she text me to say thanks for taking S to camp.
I do 3 times a week, but that was first time she thanked me
Yesterday morning we kind of got into it a little bit. It wasn't anything important. I think it was just me being frustrated with this situation. I feel like I am pulling the entire rope. That I am doing all the work and not seeing the results I need. I know this is the patience part.
That's because you are trying to define everything by the way that things used to be....
She is trying to define everything, by what they might be...
But in the end I hugged her and she actually let it happen and didn't pull away but leaned in
Why are you rushing this ^^^^ ???
Thanks Mach!
That's why I love this forum. You can get a different perspective from others. I never looked at it that way.
I am not sure giving her a hug was really rushing anything? Should I not be doing that based on where we are at right now in our situation. I am not rushing into trying to ML or anything. But I have been testing the waters with light PT lately just to see her response
I am not sure giving her a hug was really rushing anything? Should I not be doing that based on where we are at right now in our situation. I am not rushing into trying to ML or anything. But I have been testing the waters with light PT lately just to see her response
So...you are just "temp checking" ?
I want you to see this as part of you trying to define from the past...
Did you expect PT on your first date to Chuck E Cheese ????
And the "touch charges" are potentially a good thing. I just want YOU to see them for what they are, and understand YOUR reasoning behind them, so that you can lower your expectations a bit....
For now, those "touches" are for you. Down the road ? They can potentially make a difference for her.
Be aware of the reality of them, thats all..
The trick is....to be awesome enough that SHE initiates the touches...
I see your point. Thanks Mach
I do see that the PT, although small, are for me. Because that is my LL. That is how I temp checked to see what happened. Didn't realize it at the time, but now I see.
I like your example of the first date. LOL
Hey CBT... Just wanted to let you know I'm still lurking on your thread, but haven't had much input to provide.
I feel you on the PT, it is for you, but it's got to start somewhere. Your recent posts focus mostly on interactions with you and W, but I'm wondering if there have been discussions on PT? Have you asked, or has she told you what is going on in her mind?
One of the things that killed me early in piecing, even while we where in separate bedrooms my W would come into my MBR to use shower and get ready, and her walking around naked with me there was torture.. I never said anything to her, because I did like it, but man it was hard to deal with, but I didn't want her to stop doing it and then have to wait forever for her to start doing it again. Didn't want it to become habit not to do it.
Anyway, it may be for you, but if she doesn't withdraw I wouldn't stop. I started with backrubs, and I totally did it for me, but she liked it and so I kept doing it and went from there. I wouldn't do it too often, but if she is receptive, I wouldn't stop PT.
Well sure enough I did it again. I can't seem to keep my mouth shut sometimes about R talk. And as sure as hell its the jealousy of a freaking vibrator again!!
I know it's because I'm craving that type of attention from my W and not getting it, but I've got to do better at recognizing it and walk away
So here's what happened. I was in bedroom brushing teeth. I looked up and there was a charger going from my side of the old bed to a pillow. So I knew right away what it was. She said something like she hasn't used it in a couple weeks. Which is a lie. Anyways I could feel myself getting upset. At that point I should of just walked out. I said a few smartass things and I don't even remember what they were. I do remember one thing I said and that was, she said I was annoying her and I said I dont even care if I'm annoying you anymore. So I go into guest room. Well I can help myself because now I'm worked up. I walk back into MBR and at first apologize and tell her what I mean to say and that I'm just frustrated and that seeing that reminds me where we really are with things. From there I start going into how I feel like it is all about her and that she doesn't even ask me how I'm doing or how my day is going. I then begin to say how I don't even know why I'm still here and that this is getting very aggravating. That I feel like I'm just playing the husband role and that I am not getting what I need in a marriage in return. I told her I feel like plan B. I said that I can't make her love me that way. All she said to all of this was Ok.
I then told her to enjoy her time and I closed the door and left
I'm angry at myself for not controlling my emotions. I know this is a process but I feel myself becoming very frustrated that I am living in a marriage that I do not feel wanted.
I know that I've said lately that everything is great except the PT and being in separate bedrooms. And it is. It's actually been great other wise
But I can only go so long without getting what I need filled in a marriage.
Which is physical touch and feeling wanted.
I'm headed to lake tomorrow for a couple days with Son so at least I will be gone
I feel like an idiot. MC is on Thursday
Guess it will get discussed then
cbtdad,
How f'd up is it that we are the ones craving PT. It's ok, you took a couple of steps back, let it go and enjoy the weekend with your S.