New thread...
I have a question: I wanted to send WAW the info from MWD re: the marriage trap so that she might give some thought to the issues involved. My DB coach also suggested sending a last resort letter which I plan to prepare and then decide whether to send...
Any input as to if I should send one or both? I am really having issues as to how d7 will take the news as she get's out of school next week and I assume we will sit down with her then and break the news (her heart). Ugh.
Thanks for any feedback.
So just asked WAW when she wants to break the new to d7. She said maybe next weekend and I said it will tear her world apart. WAW said it depends how we handle it and I said that her family is her whole world and it will be pulled out from under her. WAW said "we'll still be a family". I shook my head and excused myself. Yesterday I went to MD and got prescip for anxiety med which I haven't tried yet, had a session with a new IT and a divorce care group at night. I was pretty depressed this am and just wanted to stay in bed. haven't decided yet if I am going to take the Zoloft, but if I keep feeling this way I may have to.
Poschan,
If you are not feeling yourself I would encourage you to start the meds. It takes a few weeks to really feel it working too, so you should start now so you'll have relief sooner than later.
The marriage trap letter you referred to seems like Pursuit to me. I would hold off on sending to prevent driving your W further away.
Thanks CWOL. Just hard to watch her move out. But I have to accept that it is her choice and I have to accept the consequences and move on for my own good and well being.
Thanks CWOL. Just hard to watch her move out. But I have to accept that it is her choice and I have to accept the consequences and move on for my own good and well being.
This is spot on poschan. I know it is not easy, and I know that it hurts, but keep this in the forefront of everything while you do the work to take care of your well being.
We delayed telling my D9 as well, I kept prompting W when she was going to tell her (she was already gone a week or two at the time) but she kept chickening out. I had originally agreed to present it as a mutual decision but used that time to reflect and told myself "why am I going along with what W wants to say, this is not my decision...".
I also wanted to appear strong for my D - that I wasn't giving up on our M. W presented it to D as shes "taking some time out", since then it's been very mixed messaging, she sees W almost every other day and has had mostly positive interactions but is slowly realizing we are not a Family right now.
What hasn't helped the situation is the family time we have spent together over the last 2 months, ie birthday weekend, Mother's day etc - that sends very mixed messages to the kids and gives them hope. It's good for D (if we R as it spares her some pain) but I don't think it's a healthy boundary for W and I right now.
Allowing my W to tell her made it easy on me, I could barely keep back the tears. D retreated to read - I don't know as it ever hit her hard as she still thinks W will come home and this is temporary. Knowing that it's W's decision though has allowed D and I to pray together for W and to discuss it a little more openly as W's decision and that I can stand by my values.
Sorry to read about your situation Poschan. You are getting some good advice and insights from the people who have posted already. I agree with CWOL about the meds. You are going to need all your strength to help your D through this awful time - she needs you to be at the best you can be (under the current circumstances).
I agree with you Paclove about not showing children it is a united decision if it is not. I did the same when my H left. He wanted us to say "We are splitting because we don't get on." I was going to go along with it, like you, but then decided I wasn't going to lie to my children about such a major trauma in their lives. They have known all along it is H's decision and that I am fighting for the M. My H is doing the same as your W with regards to doing things as a family etc and I do think it is giving them mixed messages and hope where there may be none. I have tried to point this out to my H numerous times and it falls on deaf ears but it is hard to be the one to say, "No, we're not doing things as a happy family anymore because you left." Still working on that one. This is a long, long road.
Thank you all for the input. I came across this post by Zeus and thought it may be very appropriate to my circumstances (see below). When I told WAW that I wouldn't lie and this is not my choice she got angry and said that would make her to be the bad person (duh!). I'm not going to lie to d7 she needs to know the truth and know that I am fighting for repair and the M.
From Zues:"Different people have different views on divorce. Some people are of the belief that if the marriage is difficult it can be better to separate so both individuals can find peace and children can be raised without conflict. I don't subscribe to this belief. Personally I am in the camp that marriage is a permanent commitment, that you stay with someone throughout your entire life, through good times and bad, and accept that life doesn't always give you everything you want and instead find ways to be appreciative for what you have, and that divorce and tearing apart a family is a tremendously destructive act and shouldn't be considered unless there is a life threatening situation. So in no way was any of this my choice. However I am not suggesting your mother is a bad person, she simply subscribes to a different set of beliefs about when divorce is appropriate than I do"
It's so sad re: the selfishness and lack of commitment to put the little ones in the crossfire. Maybe though I am seeing WAW true colors. In divorce care last night, we talked about seeking GOD, that's all we need, and if the M is ever to be repaired GOD has to be part of the M. GOD must come first. I question why GOD would want this but GOD has a plan and this is it.
Poschan - I am very much in sync with Zues on this - I took the vow of marriage and truly believe it was a life decision - as did my W merely a little over year ago... it's interesting I came across a post on her FB page almost 16 months ago how in M we constantly make the decision to L - we were once on the same page with this, how quickly things change when there's an outside external influence.
I am not quite in your situation yet, but I went to the MD yesterday and was prescribed some anti depressants. I debated taking them, but the MD said that it could take a year or longer for this thing to play out, however it plays out. I made the decision to start taking them last night. I have had a couple people tell me that it can totally change your perspective. As others have stated it takes a month or so for other people to notice the difference in you.
I am sorry for your situation, Know your not alone.
Just another voice agreeing that starting the Zoloft now is a wise choice, for all the reasons listed already. You need every tool in your toolbox right now, includingn having yourself in the best mental state that you can be in, given the circumstances.
I wish that I had both started my ADs earlier, and at a higher dose, so that when I had the rug pulled out from under me again I might have been better able to handle it. Starting ADs when I was already at rock bottom left me facing a much bigger hill to climb to get back to myself. Not sure I'm there yet, even after almost 8 weeks, and that was with an increased dose at 4 weeks. ADs often need dose adjustments, and every dosage change needs yet another month to reach effect.
And if you have separate anxiety meds (like Xanax or valium, etc.), just take the silly things if you're having anxiety. They don't turn you into a different person. They just take the edge off and let you feel more like yourself again. You don't win any extra points in this world for suffering unnecessarily.
(((Poschan)))
thanks coffee. stay strong.
thanks Phoebe. went to dinner tonight with family; it felt very uncomfortable but I managed to stay light and breezy. WAW was pretty conversational about her work stuff but said she was very tired due to all the stuff going on in her life. I asked like what and she gave a list that included personal life... when we got in the car I made the mistake of commenting that the personal doesn't have to be that way and she rolled her eyes. I felt pretty good after we got home worked out while d7 played with the dog. I've been praying and praying to have some peace and for GOD to guide me. The way I feel right now it seems to be working. Only time will tell but I have gave it up to GOD as I can only work on myself. planning GAL this weekend by volunteering with d7 for finding homes for homeless animals. should be great and looking forward to it.
I have a question: how do you all identify the areas that you need to work on that are most important?
Prayers to all that your road gets easier and filled with as much happiness as you can find. its within us we just need to change our attitudes and outlooks. be the change that you seek
Poschan - I find it so ironic how my W also complains of how tired she is and how much work she has when we do chat. I choose not to respond - I know the real reason, these are the things that will wear on them.
I have a question: how do you all identify the areas that you need to work on that are most important?
I think it is a matter of self reflection to determine this. I have also sought out feedback from some that I trust. I also try to look at areas that may have the most impact in my life. I see life as a journey and in this journey the goal is to learn, grow and be better than yesterday. Self reflection is key.
Write out a list that you think applies.
Seek out feedback from trusted individuals.
Compare, and then start from there.
IMOH.
Thanks SH. Tried a Zoloft last night and felt awful today. Had the shakes and just did not feel right. Discontinuing until talk with MD. Me and d7 did a volunteer outing today and had a great time. Hardly talk to WAW even though we are in the same home. She continues to move stuff to her new place. This week was rough, mot much energy and tired. Its behind me though and I look forward to a better next week. Have a great rest of the weekend all
Yikes. Sorry to hear that the meds made you feel crummy. Definitely talk to your doc about it.
I'm glad you and your D7 had a good time volunteering to help with the homeless pets. That sounds like quality time for a good cause. Priceless.
poschan,
I just wanted to check in and see how you are doing.
Hope all is well.
Me, too, Poschan.
Wishing you a day of peace and calm.
Thanks SH and Phoebe. Not much sleep last night, waking each our it seems. Why does sleep seem so fleeting these days. I guess we are being tortured through all this and that is why D is so despicable, the torment and destruction are awful. Time to shift and think about what I appreciate to get me through this day as I hope anyone who reads this does too.
The challenge with sleep is part of the process.
A wise woman told me that it will come in time. She was right. I am finding it more these days.
It did not. One without efforts. So seek out information and assistance so that you may find it.
WAW wanted to discuss finances and when to tell d7 today. She wanted to tell d7 that "we" decided to live separately. I told her I would not lie to her and that it was not my choice. WAW was not happy. Oh well, this is her disaster in the making. I feel its important to be honest to d7. I also asked if she felt that she had tried everything before deciding on D. She said yes. The fog is thick as we never tried counseling or sitting down and discussing our needs/wants etc. I know it was a mistake to discuss the R. She also wanted to have dinner as a "family" on Wednesdays. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea since it would be too confusing on d7 (and me). She said so you'll never have dinner again or do things together anymore. Sounds a lot like wanting to cake eat. I told her that once you divorce you're not a family anymore. I'm torn since I still want to repair and feel like being together might be good for d7 but just don't know. Any feedback on any of this would be appreciated.
poschan,
I'll preface my response with this; I'm not big on hard-and-fast rules, I prefer à la carte depending on the circumstances.
Just prior to my wife moving out, and during the first few days after she moved out, I thought maybe we'd (me, wife and sons) all have supper together on a fairly regular basis. We did see a fair amount of each other the first week after she moved out. But, as time went on, and I actually found myself enjoying the serenity of the absence of my wife (ouch!), it seemed like my comfort level for being around her had diminished. I'm okay with short intervals with my wife, but I really don't feel like having supper with her right now.
Please note, I didn't expect to feel that way. I'm not trying to go dark or do LRT or do double-secret-special-ninja LRT, I'm just doing what feels best for now, and as little contact as possible feels good right now. I guess I need to heal too.
So, my recommendation? Don't set a hard-and-fast path for yourself; see where things go and how you feel and decide what you think is best for you and your marriage.
Well said doodler.
MWD explains the process in DR of having a beginners mindset and then setting goals and adjusting based on outcomes.
Set rules can lead us down cheeseless tunnels. Doing things without goals can lead us on wild goose chases.
And as sandi says, do what works, not what feels right.
I know this can seem vague, but it is because set rules would mean everyone's situations were identical.
Rad and re read DB and DR, this is where so much info can be found for our situations.
Poschan,
I believe I'm a little further along (in separation) but D has not been brought up yet - W is still leaving the door open down the road I think (or just trying to ease her way out of the R very slowly... not sure)
As for Family dinners etc... I really struggle with these, on the one hand they are great for D - but it gives her false hope (she always comments on "how nice" it is when we spend family time together) on the other hand - I find it very difficult on me as I enjoy the time we spend together only to resort to anger, frustration and sadness when W leaves as if it meant nothing to her.
Be that as it may though, I still find myself falling into the trap but don't schedule them.
This past weekend there was a really fun event I wanted to take D to but it was W's weekend, she agreed to go and let me go as well (even though it was her weekend). She was reluctant at first, complained the whole way there but W had the most fun out of the 3 of us. It followed by an impromptu dinner with another family that was at the event as well - I didn't really want to do that but couldn't really protest in front of them. We had some great interactions over the weekend, I even made her laugh (I love seeing her laugh) but then she leaves Sunday night for "her place" and talks about a more permanent living situation for herself as she's leaving and it's like she's tearing a little piece away from me every time.
Just to add to my previous reply... I think why I fall into the trap is that I want to offer "glimpses" into what she's missing. Therefore I don't schedule them but if the opportunity comes up I allow it... sort of taking a queue from the "lighthouse story"
<i>"Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way...."</i>
thanks for the input doodler, SadHub, and PacLove. I think that is good advice to just see how things go without making any black and white decisions as of yet. She did say today she has made up her mind about D - I know not to believe anything she says. This morning she asked for my help when d7 wasn't listening to her and I said what are you going to do when your alone? She quipped back that I don't help now really anyway...I think she is in for a big wakeup call when she moves out and sees how much I really do for this family. She also asked if d7 could be with her the first week in her new place to "acclimate". I thought it was a bad idea since she would be dealing with losing a parent (me) and in a new home rather than just losing a parent (WAW) if she were to stay with me the first week. The poor kids. I fell so bad for all of them that have to deal with selfish parents.
This morning she asked for my help when d7 wasn't listening to her and I said what are you going to do when your alone? She quipped back that I don't help now really anyway...I think she is in for a big wakeup call when she moves out and sees how much I really do for this family.
poschan, while you have a valid point, I caution you in replying in this manner. It does not serve a purpose and you will not convince WAW of this. Also, hopefully this was not said in front of d7. It is important to be the stable and understanding parent for d7. Trust me on this. My d5 acts out for her mother regularly since the BD. She knows that her mother is not in a good place. On the other hand, d5 is an angel when with me. She knows where the stability is, so work hard to create that for her no matter what.
She also asked if d7 could be with her the first week in her new place to "acclimate". I thought it was a bad idea since she would be dealing with losing a parent (me) and in a new home rather than just losing a parent (WAW) if she were to stay with me the first week. The poor kids. I fell so bad for all of them that have to deal with selfish parents.
I encourage that you do not permit the request. It is important that you set a boundary to have a co parenting plan in place for equal time right from the start. D7 needs to acclimate to the time between both of you not to the new place with WAW. Stay firm on this. It also matters in d proceedings when it comes to time with the parents. My L was awesome in pounding this point home with me and providing a great parenting plan for me.
Hi Poschan,
I had as similar sich this weekend when W asked me to get my D down (after she was not listening to her) - I simply replied that I had to take care of something else at the time and walked away.
I also was against the "1st weekend" with W, she wanted to tell her just before I was going to be gone for the weekend which would make me look like the bad guy or at least not there to support her. She still spent the weekend with W as I had originally planned to be away, but D didn't know we were "separated". Fortunately she waited until a week later (more out of not wanting to tell her than anything else)
Thanks for the input SH and PL. It helps to have the guidance as I have felt not 100% (maybe 60%) in my thinking and emotional control. We plan to break the news to d7 Friday. WAW still asking to have d7 first. I suggested that we ask d7 what she wants. I would like for her to have some choice in all this mess.
poschan, the thought to give d7 some choice in the matter, sounds good. But I do say be cautious with this approach. It can put a lot of pressure on her to make a big decision and can cause some issues about having to pick one parent over the other. You know your d and her maturity level, but keep that in mind
I strongly encourage that a co parenting plan be set prior and just follow it.
Suggestion as it is the one that my L helped me with as my d will not be away from either parent more than 3 days in a row.
Father Mon and Tues Mom Wed and Thur Father Fri Sat and Sun
Mom Mon and Tues Dad Wed and Thur Mom Fri Sat and Sun
Good luck in your efforts with this and know we are here for your going support and feedback.
Thanks SH. We've decided 7/7 plan. I did suggest yours for the summer so it wouldn't be so long between seeing her but WAW said it wouldn't work for her work schedule. Everything seems to be for WAW benefit.
Fight for your benefits as well my friend.
I hope you have had a day with some peace.
Hard to get motivated today couldn't get out of bed. I gave my self permission to not be okay and rest. I fear the talk with d7 on Friday and it keeps looping through my mind. I also fear the future without her here everyday and it saddens me deeply. I know I need to focus on today but it's not easy. Seems to be a vicious cycle of ups and downs with way more downs right now. Friends keep saying in 1 or 2 years you'll look back on this time and it will look totally different. I agree but that doesn't help the here and now.
I know that feeling a bit too well, myself. My brain knows I am going to be OK, but it's not always so obvious on a day to day basis. Just keep your focus on a really small time window, Poschan. The next hour, the next day... something manageable. Friday is coming very soon. It will be difficult, but then you will be able to adjust your focus to the next interim goal with that huge hurdle behind you.
((Poschan))
I have not yet tried an anxiety med (lorazepam). do you think I should take one before the talk on Friday or wait till after if there is some serious anxiety?
Personally, I'd try taking one ASAP to see how you react to it. Then, as long as that trial was fine (expect to feel like yourself, just with some of the edge taken off), I sure as heck would take one in advance of something I knew was going to be a massive trigger. You do not want your first experience with these meds to be under the worst case scenario circumstance, though.
I would say that you should do anything possible to be in the best and calmest shape you can be for Friday's conversation. You will be less likely to react in a way that you will regret in the future. Try the meds now, though. It's not a weakness to help yourself. Don't make perfect the enemy of the good. You won't win any extra brownie points on the day of your final reckoning because you didn't take a silly little pill.
I deeply regret not taking my meds before the last time I saw my WH. It went badly because I was ill-equipped to cope because my anxiety was out of control. I messed up because I was too proud to have him see me rummaging in my bag for the stupid pills. Pride goeth before the fall, right?
thanks for the input Phoebe. I hope your day is going well.
I second what Phoebe says.
The meds are best used outside of the high stress points first so you know how the affect you.
we just told d7. I did say that it was WAW choice. d7 cried but wanted to know about WAW new house and they just went to see it. I think I am in shock. WAW was so composed (say cold?). t didn't even seem to affect her. I seem to be ok right now. She plans to move out next week so that will be my next hurdle to deal with the loneliness when d7 is away. So this is the start of my new journey. I hope I get some sleep tonight and am able to focus tomorrow. I am waiting for the tears to come as they are just on the periphery. d7 said "so dad will be all alone?" WAW said yes and so will mommy. some R talk beforehand as I told her how I felt. WAW said she didn't want to be just roommates. She seems to place all the blame on me as she said I could have tried harder a long time ago. I feel numb
Pos,
my personal feeling is, sometimes it feels good just to let out a good cry. Monday morning I had to go a site visit 1.5 hours away. The whole way there, while I was there and the whole back I felt like you, that at any given second I could be in tears. Before going back to work, I came home and just let out a good cry. Just to get it out. I felt better.
I am truly sorry about your situation. I would just do your best to GAL and move on. I have been thinking about different projects I can do around here.
I like that you said "this is the start of my new journey"..yes it is. Think about it like that and try to make the best of your new journey. Praying for you and your family.
Thanks Collin, I appreciate your thoughts and prayers. Its just so hard to grasp that the person I've been with for the last 14 years lacks the commitment and care that I feel. Have to accept that this is Gods plan no matter how difficult and strange that it may be. D7 appears to be excited about WAW new place and they have been back and forth moving stuff. Glad to see she is in high spirits. Starting to feel anger toward WAW now which hopefully motivates me further away from her. I had some old high school buddies invite me to golf Saturday and go to the Indy race on Sunday. Might be just the GAL I need and going to try and make it.
Have a peaceful night y'all.
poschan,
Anger is normal.
You sound to have done well in sharing with d7.
GAL for this weekend sounds awesome for you.
Be well this evening my friend.
I cried a lot when we told D - my W was also cool and collected. I didn't understand it a at all... the first two weeks, every time I thought about D9, I broke out in tears, it goes away eventually. I'm fortunate enough that I have D 70% of the time and the 30% my W has it - I often am home, or at least see her for a bit of the time, but it still brings me pain that we are "not a family" anymore.
Let it out, it will pass!
How is poschan doing this fine morning?
ok SH - thanks for checking. one thing after another as it looks like we may need to sell the house as it may be too much of a burden for me to take on. one more thing to deal with! I've been reading your thread and it gives me hope to see how positive things are happening for you. any particular things you would recommend to read or view? I have watched a few ted talks but thought you might have something in particular.
Paclove - the WAW just seems to be very cold and calculating. hard to believe that I married this alien
Poschan - sorry to hear... we are all dealing with some sort of aliens right now, my heart and prayers go out to you! Hopefully you find some way to keep the family home.
Yes, it seems the alien invasion theme is almost universal. I thought today was the day to tell D7, so I'm sorry to have missed it yesterday. It was hard for you, but I'm glad that it wasn't as tough on your D as you had anticipated.
Anything and everything that you are feeling right now is completely normal. Cry if you are sad, be angry, be numb, be whatever you feel at that moment. You are on your own journey now. Along the way you will come to terms with your grief and you will learn to heal. Don't pressure yourself and you will get there.
Be well, Poschan. I hope you get some sleep.
poschan,
As for materials to read or review, I want to recommend that you seek what is relevant to you.
Share with me things that you are struggling with now and I can provide some ideas.
Share with me things that are a part of your list for things that you want to improve based on your self reflections during this ordeal and I can provide some directions.
The things that I would encourage you start with as I think they apply for all LBS are Ted talks by the following,
Guy Winch
Shawn Achor
Brene Brown
Matthieu Ricard
Also study DB/DR
It will take time, but time can be our friend if we study, meditate, practice, fail, learn from the mistakes, serve others, be kind to ourself, forgive ourself, take care of our children like they are the most precious thing on the planet. Because they are.
Keep going when it gets tough. Recognize the small successes as well as the big ones.
And pray. Pray like you have ever prayed before. But be sure that you share gratitude more, then ask for blessings. Blessings come from being thankful and providing service to those who are in more need than ourselves.
My prayers are with you and your family.
Be well today my friend, and may you find, no may you make moments of joy for you and your family this day.
I wish that was the case PL but WAW is fast and furious on the move. D7 seems to be ok with it so far although WAW has not moved out yet and I do get very sad when I think about not seeing d7 everyday. I know, I have to stay in the moment. Thinking about the future in this scenario does me no good.
Phoebe thanks for checking on me reaffirming this new reality with all of the crazy emotions.
SH I'll check out your recommendations and take some time to reply.
I hope everyone is having a good weekend
Your post sounds stronger. You are doing well to stay in the moment. You will begin to find that quality over quantity with d7 will provide strength and joy that you can not understand until you experience it.
I look forward to your thoughts on the Ted Talks.
I'm having a hard time being positive and sometimes find myself being very negative and bitter toward WAW for what she is doing to this family. Does anyone have any suggestions for being more positive and less negative and bitter?
On a side note, I think we need a meetup group or website that focuses on LBS by residential location...
Too true on the LBS meetup need. I wish I had any in-person local support. I did join the local Beyond Affairs Network MeetUp, but they only have had one meeting in the last few months, and it was just me, the coordinator, and one other person. There have to be so many of us out there!
Look into SH's suggested viewing. Browne brown's talk is great, and Guy Winch's emotional first aid is good.
My main suggestion for you is to focus on the moment you are in and try not to focus on the bigger picture or the longer term. Try to make that moment a good one. Find a way to start laughing more. Go find something online that is foolish. Heck, watch a few cat videos. Do something silly and fun with your D7.
Positivity starts from inside you and making a conscious choice to shut down those negative thoughts. Recognize negative thoughts as they come to you and then just let them bounce off you and replace them with something better. Have a few positive replacement thoughts already prepared and ready to go. Visualize yourself in a moment that usually triggers you and the mentally practice how you will replace those thoughts.
So, tonight when you have a negative thought coming on or you feel yourself starting to ruminate on a painful subject, maybe choose instead to remember something sweet or funny that your D7 did recently.
Be well , Poschan.
Thank you Phoebe, I appreciate your input and it is helping already to refocus to more positive things. d7 is making me cards and pictures so I won't be sad when she is away. she's taking this better than me...next obstacle is Saturday moving day for WAW. WAW was stressed today about finances and how she's going to cut it with paying for a rental and her half of our home. she made her own bed and she'll have to deal with the reality of her mess. my stress and worries seem to be the strongest in the morning for some reason. By the way, poschan is short for positive change...
I am checking in to see how poschan is doing today.
I hope all is well my friend.
Thank you for sharing the derivation of you name, Poschan. I love it.
(((Poschan))) hugs to help you get through moving day
I'm having a hard time being positive and sometimes find myself being very negative and bitter toward WAW for what she is doing to this family. Does anyone have any suggestions for being more positive and less negative and bitter?
On a side note, I think we need a meetup group or website that focuses on LBS by residential location...
Poschan-just caught up on your sitch and since I have a same age D, I wanted to see how you were handling telling her. I have ready many different stories on telling their children and I have to do this myself shortly.
Being negative & bitter is not abnormal. I would add also hate and anger and resentment to the mix. You should be feeling this and its so normal as your life has been torn up and changed by someone you barely know now.
It seems the WAW/H is always cold and stone hearted when telling their children. I cry just thinking about it and have lost it in front of her before where she used to see me as the man and rock of of the family.
I just ordered Crazy Time Surviving Divorce book too as a good read was recommended by a friend going thru a terrible divorce too.
I agree on the meetup group too! I found a local mens' divorce meetup and although small 3-4 people, I plan on attending to compare notes. We may all have the same profile of the WAW!
Pls take care of yourself!
Good morning all, having a rough few days. don't seem to have much energy and I sorely need it to get work done. have been out with d7 doing some house hunting but it is so overwhelming. trying to decide if I can buyout WAW or have to sell and find a new place. I hate being forced into a corner. d7 says she's ready for a new place so I guess that is good. Originally I wanted to try and stay here for a year or 2 for her stability and sense of normalcy. I just pray for guidance.
rich4j:the conversation with d7 was one of the hardest things I've had to do in my life. I did tell her it was not my choice and that WAW's choice to move out. As recommended, I watched MWD video on how to present to kids. I was very fearful in the weeks leading up to the talk, but it was not near as bad as I anticipated. I hope this helps.
My next goal will be to get through WAW moving out this weekend.
hugs to all
rich4j:the conversation with d7 was one of the hardest things I've had to do in my life. I did tell her it was not my choice and that WAW's choice to move out. As recommended, I watched MWD video on how to present to kids. I was very fearful in the weeks leading up to the talk, but it was not near as bad as I anticipated. I hope this helps.
My next goal will be to get through WAW moving out this weekend.
hugs to all
Thanks P. I reviewed the video and also talked to my therapist. It is a hard decision and we originally started to do co -parenting discussions with a therapist but those broke down as she turned them into a blame session. My therapist recommended telling my D together and not blaming either. My sitch is a bit different as I have suspected an EA/PA from early on but couldn't prove it and she denied. I also believe she did have an EA until she filed and then it became a PA and now may have fizzled...not sure but don't care. She won't admit it and this has delayed and hurt my finalizing an agreement to separate.....denial denial denial
Either way, I am in a delicate position as the final D will take months and I need her to be not a nut as she is now. So it may be the "we" are divorcing versus your crazy mom doesn't love me anymore discussion. But that may come later after I move :-)
In terms of your move, are you taking D7 out of the current school district? If it helps at all, I have been in the same conundrum for 4 months. Looking for a new place stinks....but for the normalcy "WE" decided my STBX would stay in the house for now and I found a new place very close by. I wanted to keep her in the same school as this will be hard enough on her.
WAW moving out will be tough...it will feel and look a bit emptier in your place but try to look at it as a cleansing and the chance to start fresh. It's ok to let yourself be sad about it as it won't be easy. I dread moving out and having her stay in the house but don't let her fool you...I bet it will be hard on her too. Hang in there....better days are coming.
Thanks Rich4j. she has been in private school and we are going to try and keep her there. this home is really too big for just me and d7, but it would be a great investment if I could hang onto it. I have a bunch of projects to start once she's out so that will keep me busy and going to look at some local meet up groups to get out of the house.
Why is it so easy for these WAWs/WAHs to walk away and destroy a family? Lack of character, lack of morals, lack of feeling...
I just don't get how someone can walk away from a family with young children and think that is in their best interests. Well, I just signed up for some meetup groups and I must say its exciting to see all of the opportunities. Can't wait to try one.
Why is it so easy for these WAWs/WAHs to walk away and destroy a family? Lack of character, lack of morals, lack of feeling...
I just don't get how someone can walk away from a family with young children and think that is in their best interests.
It is baffling isn't it? Problem is they don't care as the selfishness rules. So everyone's sitch is different but it seems the pattern is one of no guilt, no remorse, and focus on self.
My STBX comes from a messed up family of divorce and seems to think everything will be fine...it was for "me". But that is the problem...she has always been messed up and part of the reason our marriage and all her relationships didn't work
Also if your WAW has friends who have been divorced and talk in her ear about "kids are resilient", "it will only be rough for a few months", "you deserve to be happier"....then...its a recipe for disaster. It is why many folks who divorce after 12-24 months wish they gave it more of a fight....proven factoid.
But for many who were the hurt ones that it 12-24months too late.
I would have done most anything to try to save our relationship but not when I am not 100% to blame and she won't take any ownership to help fix things.
Why is it so easy for these WAWs/WAHs to walk away and destroy a family? Lack of character, lack of morals, lack of feeling...
I just don't get how someone can walk away from a family with young children and think that is in their best interests.
You speak the truth brother. Heartless and gutless. Completely delusional and refuse to take responsibility for their actions.
Got out and GAL today as movers were going to be here today. GALwas good and had dinner before coming home. House is pretty empty as WAWtook alot of stuff which is ok. First night in home without d7 and WAW. Brought in pup to have company.
Last night I was out in the rain letting pup out before bed and d7 called out and asked if she could come out. I told her to grab her umbrella and we took a short walk in the rain and lightning flashes. D7caught a lightning bug and it rode her arm most of the way as we walked and talked. I now know what SH meant by quality time and I was truly present in the moment. I told d7 she could tell me anything and she would not hurt my feelings and that I love her.
Had a goodnight call with d7 and the tears came but I sounded composed. I pray that she is safe as I cannot protect her when she isn't here.
poschan
So glad to hear about your quality time with d7. I can tell you from my experience, that you will truely find joy like you have never felt in your time with her moving forward.
Know that your love and all that you do when you are with her provide protection for her when you are not with her. You will see that she will make truly amazing decisions that will keep her safe based on what she learns from you. Your love for her is more powerful than you know and that is what can provide you comfort and peace until she joins you again.
Keep your head up, your mind busy and placing one foot in front of the other. You are making good progress and will gain strength each day.
Sleep well tonight poschan.
D7 is on the phone away from WAW and crying her poor little heart out. It kills me that she is so much pain. Cruel to say the least. My poor little sweet girl. Its killing me. She asking her why she had to move over and over. She tells her she wants us all together. "why can't you just come home?"
I can only really say that WAW has soulsucked me and now breaking a little girls heart. So selfish, d7doesnot deserve this. This will result in anger.man oh man
My heart breaks for you and d7. I know first hand the pain and anger you are experiencing.
Comfort her. Keep your anger at bay when speaking with her. She needs your stability and love.
I have been told and now I am seeing it first hand, children know who the stable parent it. Be that for her in spite of the horrible situation.
Be strong poschan I know it hurts. You will prevail as you continue your path.
D7 is on the phone away from WAW and crying her poor little heart out. It kills me that she is so much pain. Cruel to say the least. My poor little sweet girl. Its killing me. She asking her why she had to move over and over. She tells her she wants us all together. "why can't you just come home?"
I can only really say that WAW has soulsucked me and now breaking a little girls heart. So selfish, d7doesnot deserve this. This will result in anger.man oh man
P- hang in there. I feel like you are going thru what I am about to in a few weeks and I feel your angst and pain. I have cried alot over the past few months like you are on trips with her when she asks "why aren't we doing things as a family anymore?"....she doesn't know yet.
I know it's not fair and the WAW is probably stone cold in mind, heart and attitude towards the situation where she is #2 and the child is not the priority. I have witnessed it personally and it breaks my heart that selfishness rules.
I have asked my counselor a million times about the impact of divorce on kids and read a million articles. Hearing the word resilient makes me sick as there isn't a healthy way to divorce with kids. What I do know is that if the 2 parents can eventually co parent , love, and cherish the children that they can end up fine. Is it better to be married and raise a child in a happy home? Yes. But unfortunately most of us on the board are not in the happy home anymore so we just have to figure this out and make the best of it.
It's the worst part of the nightmare. But hopefully you can stay strong in front of her (easier said than done my friend..I know!)
have had very little communication with WAW since move out. One call today since d7 had a tough time this morning. I must say it seems to surreal. d7 was sad/melancholy tonight when looking at a picture on the counter that said "family". We talked about it and I told her some things change and that things don't always go like we think they will. She was upset that her family is no longer together. I didn't know what to say other than I love her and this was not her fault. I feel so bad for her and all the children who have to endure such devastation. I asked WAW why she thought it was best for d7 to D. She didn't have an answer. Because its not, it's selfish and self-centered around WAW.
I asked WAW why she thought it was best for d7 to D. She didn't have an answer.
I know the impact on the kids is the most challenging for us LBS to handle. I do want to encourage that you refrain from asking WAW things like this. It is a fruitless question and a cheesless tunnel.
I have approached it as I would like to think that I would approach any other tragic situation that happens to people. By doing the best I can with what I have. I know that the statistics show the impact on children are negative, but I also know many well adjusted folks that grew up in a family where the parents divorced. So I focus in them and how they turned out.
I am not trying to minimize the pain that you feel poschan, I am just trying to offer the best option available for us. We need to stand up, be strong for our children, don't worry about the WAS, and be the best fathers we can be under the circumstances.
Read up on the Stockade paradox. This was recommended to me earl on in my sitch and has really been a point of balance for me. Let me know your thoughts once you read up on it and share how it may apply for your situation.
Our kids are our most precious things in life. We can still give them all we have, even if someone else chooses to chase what they think will make them happy.
Hugs. Lots and lots of hugs for those little ones.
d7 was sad/melancholy tonight when looking at a picture on the counter that said "family". We talked about it and I told her some things change and that things don't always go like we think they will. She was upset that her family is no longer together. I didn't know what to say other than I love her and this was not her fault. I feel so bad for her and all the children who have to endure such devastation. I asked WAW why she thought it was best for d7 to D. She didn't have an answer. Because its not, it's selfish and self-centered around WAW.
Ugh...that is so hard. We have a writing on the wall that my D7 wrote that says "I love my family". Pulls at my heart every day and feel your pain
WAW won't have an answer because she thinks its Ok and is selfish. My STBX says she was from a divorce family and turned out fine...NOT. It is a total act of selfishness but we know that at this point.
Good advice from SH. No use in asking her about it....
I will be taking the approach that we will always be a family and tied together as your mom and dad who love you more than anything and again...like you said...this has nothing to do with "you". But I know it pains the child to not see the family hugs, trips, dinners and doing things together like other families. Not sure if its easier on the older kids or younger but to me it feels more damaging to the younger kids like ours....
Why is it so easy for these WAWs/WAHs to walk away and destroy a family? Lack of character, lack of morals, lack of feeling...
I just don't get how someone can walk away from a family with young children and think that is in their best interests.
My children were grown with their own families when I was a WW. I would say, based on my experience, it's at least a temporary lacking in those things you listed. Maybe for some, it returns......I just don't know if that's true in every case.
It all came to hit home with me, a short time later when my DIL told my son that she needed some space. He thought he'd be gone for the weekend and then go home. However, she had been in an PA and was moving her AP into the home.
I saw the terrible pain and shock that my son and his children went through b/c of her selfishness. My own guilt for my WW time, came back to haunt me. It was as bad as a death. It hurt all of us so much. I don't know if her character and morals will ever resume, but I'm pretty sure her feelings for my son won't. She has long moved on with OM, and she continues to put her desires above anyone else.
Read up on the Stockade paradox. This was recommended to me earl on in my sitch and has really been a point of balance for me. Let me know your thoughts once you read up on it and share how it may apply for your situation.
Silly spell check this should read Stockdale paradox.
Thank you all for providing caring feedback. d7 was with WAW last night and will be tonight. I was ok last night tried to keep busy as much as possible to wear myself out. I don't know for sure yet but I tend to agree that it is harder on the younger child. I've already seen the devastation to d7 and her immense hurt and sorrow. It tears at my heart and builds anger towards WAW. I realize that d7 will probably change as well and not be able to keep being a kid like she was before WAW walked away. I guess what I mean is that I wanted to protect her from these types of world changers while she is in the tender years but WAW decided that kids are resilient and she'll be fine...
WAW father left her when she was young and was raised by a stepdad who is a good guy but probably let her get away with a lot (as well as her mom). Seems the cycle is repeating for WAW, intentionally or unintentionally.
Thank you again everyone for chiming in, it really does help in this terrible situation. the similarities to other sitches is truly saddening but helps to realize I am not alone and neither are any of you.
the stockdale paradox. i'm trying to change my mindset and apply this. thanks SH
"You must retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties.
AND at the same time…
You must confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
Wise words and the mindset of a survivor and thriver in the midst of chaos and the uncontrollable things around us.
You will come though this poschan, you will be whole again and find peace and joy.
had a great afternoon yesterday with d7 after being with WAW for 2 nights. we had an early dinner out and then a movie. took her shopping for some things she needed at my house. Today WAW wanted to talk about a temporary parenting plan. She was very abrasive and antagonistic. I slipped a bit by telling WAW that I care for her and keeping the family together. She snapped back saying what a great way to show it...huh? she is the one who has walked away and lacks commitment. She tells me I'm making her out to be the bad person with d7 because I told her that d7 does not want to be away from us for a 7/7 plan. I have suggested the plan by SH but WAW says it won't work for her. However, we are going to at least try it for a few weeks this summer. I guess the WAW says the things she does in order to try and justify her actions. Seems like she is saying I made her walk away. I admitted to my faults in the R and told WAW I am working on myself to be a better person and dad. I hate this for d7. This is taking some of her innocence and being a kid away. Trying to buyout WAW to maintain some stability for d7.Not deducting any realtor or other fees that would be associated with a sale and WAW still says she's being screwed.
Seems like she is getting more and more irrational. WAW says I should start paying child support but D hasn't even been filed. I told her to just let me know what d7 needs and I'll buy it. sorry for the rambling... I wish I had more strength but I know it will take time.
Wow that sounds rough... my W has stepped up and is still honoring her responsibility as a M, more so now actually then before when we were together.
I don't agree that Kids are resilient - they will get through this but no doubt will suffer some damage, however I've learned that they can also be a great source of strength for us through this. My D last night was reading her kids bible (on her own, and on a night when W was looking after her) and this morning was citing the 10 commandments to me...
During Easter she asked to pray the ways of the cross with me. God works through them in amazing ways!
Even if you'r not religious - your D7 can be a great strength for you and a source of companionship while your W figures her $#!7 out.
Poschan
Feel your pain and angst. Your WAW is cousins or sisters with mine with the same things:
-My fault my fault my fault
-rude, abrasive and not caring at all
-demanding $ and ready to battle
There is a cycle of rationalizing that I think WAW/H goes through and after reading Sandi2 stuff, it seems that there is anger and resentment from their side that gets tossed into that salad. "If you were a better husband this never would have happened".
It gets tiring doesn't it? I did a bunch of stuff for my STBX in regards to one of our dogs as she can't and the word thank you wasn't even close to her lips
I think the only way to handle is to continue your DB'ing ......maybe one day she snaps out of it.
I can see this coming up with my son soon. He's 3+ but with a speech delay, so he can't have conversations yet. It's coming though, very quickly. It's scary as hell for me, and all she can say is "tell him Mommy and Daddy love him very much." Sure, one of us just didn't love him enough to give him his family.
My WW's family are enablers. Anything she says is golden. Want to be happy (in the moment)? Sure, go ahead and leave. S will be fine, just be happy. And poof, gone. Without a second thought. It's like they only want to be parents when it's convenient. Their irrationality rules.
I don't know what to tell you other than to show that kid as much love as you can. All the time.
Good luck to you and your D!!!
It's so weird how many of our situations are so similar. Must be some type of pandemic affecting our Ss. Thanks for the feedback it really helps me.
Rich she spewed something very similar to "If you were a better husband this never would have happened" that today. Takes no ownership for her own actions. I need to start GALing hard and fill up my calendar.
It's so weird how many of our situations are so similar. Must be some type of pandemic affecting our Ss. Thanks for the feedback it really helps me.
Rich she spewed something very similar to "If you were a better husband this never would have happened" that today. Takes no ownership for her own actions. I need to start GALing hard and fill up my calendar.
It's so true... GAL definitely helps. I'm now starting to see the value of it. 9 weeks in and I'm finally starting to sleep, haven't really cried in a while now and have been doing my best to act "aloof" around W. Time does help so does patience and the more you distance yourself the better it is. I haven't snooped since Monday and it's felt great!
Must be some type of pandemic affecting our Ss
Yes, it's called the nice guy syndrome.
WAW was just here d7 wanted her to see her new bedroom furniture. I stayed out of the way while they walked around with the rearranged stuff. when they were about to leave, I asked for a moment with d7. d7 said she d/n want to go and wanted to be with me which started the tears flowing. I hugged her tightly and told her we will be ok. when I brought her out to the car, WAW gave me the ugliest leer almost seemed liked she was basking in my pain and tears. I just couldn't keep it together but you know what? I don't give a f---. Im human and this is all so new and raw. GAL tomorrow and see d7 again Sunday. GRRRRR
her new nickname is homewrecker
many threats thrown at me today. I just wrote out a page of them. made a few mistakes today getting caught in her traps. on the phone with WAW today i stated how important family was to me and she scoffed and made a disparaging remark about my immediate family. i got defensive and attempted to convince before giving up. mistake noted, move on. i realize now with the aforementioned page that it's time for me to get moving to protect myself. i also made the mistake of telling her I loved her on the phone and she said "i had a funny way of showing it". wow. 2x4. another eyeopener. my friend had previously mentioned the term "soul sucker" and now i think i know what he meant
on the phone with WAW today i stated how important family was to me and she scoffed and made a disparaging remark about my immediate family
i also made the mistake of telling her I loved her on the phone and she said "i had a funny way of showing it".
Poschan, you broke two of the 37 rules intended to be a guide in directing you what to do and not do. I am not calling you on the carpet about it. You are a grown man! I am just curious as to why you continue doing the very things we have said works against you.
Being a WW, I think I have a pretty good idea how these two statements were seen by your W. my question is, what expectation were you seeking in both statements? And, you did have expectations............so be honest and say what was in your heart.
I don't mean to sound pushy by asking this question, have you read my threads on help for the newcomer LBH with a WW?
I'm not sure what I was expecting with my comment. spoken out of my emotional state I guess. I felt like I was being honest by telling her how I felt but realize she does not feel the same way. I need to get better at detaching from her. Are there any techniques that can help me with detaching? Sandi can you direct me to a thread that you refer?
maybe my expectation was to somehow prove to her how important family is an why I wanted to repair the M.
I felt like I was being honest by telling her how I felt but realize she does not feel the same way. I need to get better at detaching from her. Are there any techniques that can help me with detaching? Sandi can you direct me to a thread that you refer?
1. I have no doubt you were being honest in telling her your important values in life, the same way we all do this in our first attempts to win a WW back. the problem is, she's already broken the 'trust' connection with you, and anything you say to her right now will only be met with 'rejection' or 'contempt'. It goes back to the black/white thing in the beginner thread. you can explain to your wife 2+2 really is 4, but she's not interested in what you know/value right now.
2. Like sandi said, read that LBS thread. It's the one I waited last to read, because there was so much content and it was kind of spread around all over the place. But it's definitely worth the time. She knows her sh1t.
3. As far as 'detaching', I think the best thing to do is GAL, GAL, and get more of a life. The more you do, the more connections you build elsewhere that does not involve your W, the easier it becomes to not consume your energy thinking about your W.
For some basic suggestions:
1. You've heard this a hundred times by now, but there is a reason for it... FOCUS ON HEALING YOURSELF, not healing your MR.
2. Give space, not just to your W, but to yourself.
3. Step back, look at your situation objectively, not from inside the circle, or subjectively. Create measureable goals.
4. Figure out what's actually keeping you attached... are they mainly fear based reasons? aspirational reasons? familial reasons?
5. Don't fear the pain or unknown. The pain of detaching is real, but it's also temporary.
thanks betterm. really insightful tips. gives me a lot to think about. right now, I think what is keeping me attached is mostly familial. all the trials and tribulations we have been through; bringing a beautiful d7 into this world, etc. however, lately it seems that anger and contempt seem to be consuming me. I have to somehow turn to more positive thoughts which has been difficult lately.
this morning got a text from WAW that said I am turning d7 against her sine d7 continues to blame WAW that she left her by moving out and that it was all WAW choice. WAW said I told d7 that. I texted back that it was WAW choice and that d7 saw WAW move out.i told WAW that I don't say things to turn her against WAW. I told her I tell her we both love her and reaffirm that this is not her fault. WAW wrote that this was not her choice and I played a major part in the M not working. WAW said yes she left because she was "tired" of being my roommate and said I started working on repair too late (of course). I told her I take ownership for my part and am still working on those aspects.
Funny part is that she never told me about her intentions. I found a list of addresses of houses she was looking at and that's how I found out. She didn't have enough respect to confront me and tell me her intentions? As sandi and others have said "no" she doesn't. was I wrong in replying like this today? she is still not taking ownership for her choice to walk away from me and the marriage by saying I played the major part. I know there was a tear in our communication channel for awhile but that is not all my fault. d7 had been sleeping in our bed for the last year while I was in the guest room. I started sleeping in the guest room since WAW was snoring a lot and I was not getting a good nights sleep. Intimacy and such had long since vanished before that took place.
she texted that our communication confirms that she made the right decision. of course it does, anything to justify it. I need to detach and go more dark. it ain't easy for sure. I know I shouldn't be thinking about this; but how is there any hope for repair when she is in her own place and we don't talk?
We discussed some of the parenting plan and I wanted a clause that said no overnight guests of opposite sex while d7 was with WAW. WAW would not agree and stated already thinking ahead to being engaged and married again. wow how quickly the WAW moves forward. more threats to go to L today. Trying to negotiate MDA and PP.
We discussed some of the parenting plan and I wanted a clause that said no overnight guests of opposite sex while d7 was with WAW.
It's funny, I had a clause in there saying no meeting of opposite sex partners that either of us might be involved with, she agreed to it but this but it later backfired on me as her justifying the OM - since the agreement alluded to the fact that relationships might be permissible.
d7 with me last night and today then with WAW for the next 2 nights. I realize some of my latest posts were not coming from the best place in my heart. today at breakfast I got sad knowing that d7 is not with me all the time. it hurts. I know I shouldn't be dwelling on that aspect but it creeps in and pulls at my heart. need to get some work done while d7 is here which makes me feel somewhat guilty since I am not giving her my full attention but at least she is here with me and I can give her hugs and tell her I love her.
talk with WAW re: finances and she said this wouldn't have happened it I loved and appreciated her more. I said the same goes for her. I should have validated but having a difficult time not being defensive when I am under attack. I need to take a breath and think before reacting. how does one go about not reacting and validating?
talk with WAW re: finances and she said this wouldn't have happened it I loved and appreciated her more. I said the same goes for her. I should have validated but having a difficult time not being defensive when I am under attack. I need to take a breath and think before reacting. how does one go about not reacting and validating?
My wife got POed I didn't tell her about a haircut last night that I told my parents to get my son. I wanted to say it's no BFD, just a haircut! You've gotta stop, and ask yourself what you're going to accomplish with your response. Try to see it from her POV. You don't have to agree with it, just try to see her POV. You will have to quell your emotions a little. I'm just starting it, so others may have better advice. It worked though, WW actually apologized to me for being so angry initially.
Please start a new thread.