Old thread - Fresh Meat - no longer fresh
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678621&page=1Sitch summary
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...040#Post2677040Well - I must admit that I was slightly surprised and slightly relieved. Since I'm "working" from home today and tomorrow is garbage day I emptied the trash cans including the one in the spare room where W is. On the top was a strip from the newspaper with apartment ads in it. So - she's considering moving out. We had talked about it before and she didn't think she could money-wise. I had told her that it probably could work but be tight.
I'm not sure how long that has been in her trash but probably no more than a few days. That might explain why she needed her proof of income if she's putting her ducks in a row to move out. Well - at least that's some sort of decision. I need to stop by the hardware store tomorrow and pick up new lock cylinders and keep them handy. If she's moving out then I need to make sure I have control of her access to the marital home and contents. I've heard of houses getting stripped. One worry is that I have no control if she does this while I'm at my conference.
Sigh. I really want this to be over.
No telling if she will actually pursue a move. She does have it pretty good here other than the fact that she can't have OM over.
AndrewP,
Others may not agree with this, so please get some advice from fellow DBers if you consider doing this...
It may be the perfect time for a 180. Go get some of those free publications that list rental properties and give them to your wife (or you can look around for some good rental sites online). Tell her that you noticed the newspaper in the trash and that you thought you'd get some more rental info for her. Help her along toward her goal.
I know it'd feel weird to do that, but I guarantee you that she's not expecting it.
doodler - I actually did that 180 a few weeks ago I think when I told her that I believed in her and that she could do it on her own rather than groveling and begging her to stay.
One of the mistakes that I feel that I've made as a husband and partner has been always being the one with the answers. So - for example when we got invited to one of W's nephew's wedding old me would have gone into planning mode, figured out how to get there, where we would need to stay and then present that plan to her. I did actually do all of that figuring out but my only comment to her was "do you think you're going?" to which I didn't get an answer. I didn't even ask my follow-up question of "do you want me to go" as I'm not sure if I want to or not - if we're not a couple any more than it wouldn't make sense and she would also have to deal with her family asking where I was. The wedding is over a month away and as I am learning, these things can change abruptly so I am prepared to be flexible.
The other side of this is me giving her space / detaching. She's a big girl and needs to make her own decisions about where she's going to live, sleep and with who. I've made my "wishes" clear. There was a post I read today I think from either Cadet or sandi2 that actually went into detail about what they mean by detaching and I think that this not only follows those concepts but is also the "right" thing to do.
Also - admitting that I went through her trash would be a MAJOR bad mojo.
doodler - funny that this should come up today here.
W came home (pretty much on time) in a bit of a grump. Perhaps she's realized that I removed her access to those files but didn't say anything. She did make a couple of comments about me hating her but I didn't rise to the bait. That was weird too - she's pretty much never brought up my feelings (or her feelings) for a long long time.
A bit later I mentioned that I had paid some bills early because I was going to be away next week. W got a bit upset that I hadn't left her a list of the bills for her to do while I was away. This is weird because I've been doing our books for years. We had problems a long time ago when she was doing them in part because she wouldn't share what was going on and tried to juggle too many things. Since I've done the books everything has been open and she sees all the bills when they come in and she also does much of the in-person banking that we do weekly. Where I think she was going with this was that she felt that she was capable of contributing to the family in this and that it was something that I had "taken over" - not really sure where she was going actually. She even got a bit weepy about it - weird. I did tell her a bit later that I would be perfectly happy if she chose to look at our books and pay the bills and that as far as I was concerned as long as the bills got paid on time I didn't care "who" did it.
So - it appears that I have a bit more detaching to do still and be a bit less controlling over this part of our lives.
On the other hand - I need to be careful and protect myself - it's a difficult balance between needing to show someone you trust them while at the same time worrying that that trust will be abused.
Sigh.
Maybe I'd be better off with just my cats instead of this human contact thing.
P.S. - did you find the peanut butter? I'm still willing to trade ironing for cookies.
Andrew, just be careful and make sure you check out what the legal situation would be where you live before you go down the route of changing the locks.
Andrew, just be careful and make sure you check out what the legal situation would be where you live before you go down the route of changing the locks.
Good point. My plan is to only do that if she gets her own place. I know from my own studies that ignorance of the law is no defense but that is only in a court. I've heard too many first and second hand stories of one spouse either trashing or looting a house to not think of how to protect myself. I'm still thinking that it's low probability but then again I always thought her cheating on me was too.
AndrewP,
I agree with focus22; if you've been doing the books and bill payment over the years and she suddenly wants to start doing it, then there's a high probability that something is amiss. I'm generally a trusting type, but when it comes to a WW, they're crafty.
With regard to my 180 suggestion, I didn't realize you went through her trash; I'd assumed you just saw the newspaper ads on top of the trash. But I agree, if you went through her trash, then it's certainly not good fodder for a 180.
For what it's worth, I didn't really detach until after my wife moved out and I suddenly, and unexpectedly, realized life felt good again. In some ways that stinks because I want my family back together, but I don't want the wife I had. She'd have to make some major changes for me to take her back and I don't think she'll make the changes.
Lastly, I don't know if what happened to me is really detaching, but I'm assuming it is. I've started saying, "Never believe an LBS when they say they're detaching." I don't say that to be cruel, I just think that if you have to put effort into it, then it's probably not detaching.
For what it's worth, I didn't really detach until after my wife moved out and I suddenly, and unexpectedly, realized life felt good again. In some ways that stinks because I want my family back together, but I don't want the wife I had. She'd have to make some major changes for me to take her back and I don't think she'll make the changes.
Lastly, I don't know if what happened to me is really detaching, but I'm assuming it is. I've started saying, "Never believe an LBS when they say they're detaching." I don't say that to be cruel, I just think that if you have to put effort into it, then it's probably not detaching.
Funny how that works huh. I started feeling 100 times better once WW move out.
Oh and I agree, any LBS who is saying they are detached is not really detached.
Stay strong
My H ran away in October (11 October, to be exact).
Once I started to get over the total and utter shock a bit, and started getting used to the silence in the house, I started really loving it.
The peace, quiet, serenity, freedom from stress and turmoil, the feeling of not trading on eggshells all the time...amazing. It's made such a difference to my life and my wellbeing. Hadn't realised how stressful things had become.
I agree with focus22; if you've been doing the books and bill payment over the years and she suddenly wants to start doing it, then there's a high probability that something is amiss. I'm generally a trusting type, but when it comes to a WW, they're crafty.
Agreed - she can be crafty. I think where this came from (using my awesome mind reading powers) was the same place that some earlier comments came from about me hating her. Another alternative is that she's trying to become more engaged in our life together and is finding that for many things that I don't need her. She used to do our books years ago (long story about why that changed) and we still go over everything together every month (missed last month post BD - papers still on the table). Most weeks she does the in-person banking because it works better for her schedule. I'm thinking stress and angst was the factor here.
It's funny - the "rules" say to not believe anything they say and 1/2 of what they do. Well - she doesn't really say anything (never really has) but what she's doing looks like she's drifting away from OM and back to our home. Perhaps not to me, but to our home and life together. Unless my mind-reading powers are on the fritz yet again.
With that said - yes - I'm watching for the craftiness and working hard on not believing.
P.S. - I've revealed to her that I have a Dr appt today taking the mystery away from that. She seemed relieved and happy but concerned in a good way. I felt that if I expect openness and transparency from her - which is becoming more frequent - that I need to give her the same courtesy.
I've revealed to her that I have a Dr appt today taking the mystery away from that.
AndrewP,
Now is the perfect time to reveal the intended sex change as well.
Call Me Drew, great rival for Kate.
Very true about saying that we're detached. The only time that we will truly be detached is if we no longer talk about our WWS. We talk about ourselves, our thoughts, our beings. I've had these moments over the Las few weeks so I know that I can get there permanently.
We've got to give back when that time comes and reflect back on this most painful and priceless journey.
AndrewP,
Now is the perfect time to reveal the intended sex change as well.
doodler - I just rediscovered my balls. No way I'm giving them up now.
AndrewP,
But hey, it'd be a 180 that your wife never would've expected.
Well - if I typed what I'm feeling it would be all censored out. W has recently started sending me texts and letting me know where she is and who with. Positive sign I thought ....
Well last night she told me that this Saturday night she's staying with OM. She never mentioned OM in words just that she was going to be away overnight and I made a point of saying that I wasn't asking where. I know that this happens but it hurt to have my nose rubbed in it. The overnight think I suspect has only happened maybe twice since the PA started in February so this would be a big thing for them. She explained that she was telling me as being part of being open and honest. She could tell that I reacted like a punch in the gut but I didn't say anything cruel out loud. I told her that I appreciated the honesty and that the waiting for her to make a choice was giving me a lot of pain but that I would wait until there was no more hope. I then went upstairs and slammed the door to the MBR.
On BD I did ask her if she intended to continue the A and she said yes at that time so I really don't have much of a leg to stand on other than my boundary that OM does not come on our property.
This morning I was (and still am) angry. I was originally going to be petty, petulant, angry and mean but decided that I was better than that. When she came down for her own breakfast I was if not cheerful, at least friendly. I did make a point of mentioning that I appreciated her being open and honest and hoped that it would continue but said that her plans were a "punch in the gut" to me. She gave a vague apology and I said that sometimes punches in the gut happen when there is truth. One thing that has crossed my mind is that this might be a sort of "job interview" for OM as her new sugar daddy. Or it may be a result of him pushing for more. Last night I heard my wife's loud snoring through the wall between our rooms and that made me feel a bit better.
Since things are seeming to go in a bad direction I also took a chance and called my SIL and explained under strictest confidentiality the situation which was a complete shock to her. I know that this is strongly not recommended but I think it was the right thing to do as I'll point out shortly. I then suggested that she work with her H to get the visit between him and my WW that my WW had said last week to me that she wanted to talk about our sitch. SIL confirmed that she knew they wanted to talk but that it hadn't happened and that she would make things happen quietly and discretely. I'm hoping this does happen because WW has great respect for her B even if he had an A himself. It might help her get her mind around where she wants to go and let us both move on in some sort of direction.
No 2X4s right now please - I'm full of a lot of hurt.
Andrew,
I'm not telling, I'm only asking. Why does she still live in the house. Have you told her to leave? If not, why not? If you have, how did she respond?
I ask these questions because she is openly having a PA and even rubbing your nose in it. For most people that is the worst betrayal of your marriage possible. Why are you letting her eat cake?
Again, I'm not saying you should kick her out, I'm more or less asking if you have thought about it.
How did your doctor's appointment go the other day? Did you get tested?
In response to your last update - I'm not surprised she's told you she's staying with OM this weekend. This is what I meant by how you're in the friend zone. She's comfortable sharing things with you just like she would tell a friend.
I'm sad that you told her, "the waiting for her to make a choice was giving me a lot of pain but that I would wait until there was no more hope." You deserve so much better than to wait around while she has a relationship with another man. You're choosing to wait for her. That is your choice. I hope you're still working on yourself as well. Have you sought out another counselor?
I ask these questions because she is openly having a PA and even rubbing your nose in it. For most people that is the worst betrayal of your marriage possible. Why are you letting her eat cake?
Again, I'm not saying you should kick her out, I'm more or less asking if you have thought about it.
Andrew,
I second TJ's opinions. You need to put your foot down and draw a line in the sand.
Relying on hope alone is not going to get you any where. Last week you were mind-reading and felt you were on the cusp of recovery, and asking only for people who have successfully R'ed to teach you how to piece. Part of detaching is to see reality as it is.
Andrew,
I'm not telling, I'm only asking. Why does she still live in the house. Have you told her to leave? If not, why not? If you have, how did she respond?
I ask these questions because she is openly having a PA and even rubbing your nose in it. For most people that is the worst betrayal of your marriage possible. Why are you letting her eat cake?
Again, I'm not saying you should kick her out, I'm more or less asking if you have thought about it.
Absolutely I've thought of that. If I would throw her out it would (in my mind) destroy any chance of reconciliation and make me the evil one to her and everyone else including S22 and D24. I have told her on several occasions that she is welcome to leave if that is what she wants - either to go to OM or to be on her own. Right now - of her own free will - she has unpleasant accommodations so she is feeling some loss every day. I am sure that it also hurts her to see me around every day trying my best to do my own GAL but reminding her of the betrayal. I think the "rubbing the nose" bit was a misplaced good intention on her part. She was certainly not gloating but was following her own plan of being open and honest which is a plan that I support even if it did go sideways here. My own plans often go in odd directions. She definitely does not want to leave the M or our home - not so much because of cake eating but because my mind-reading powers tell me that she is truly conflicted over what she wants and doesn't want to close the door firmly on that life. For example I once made an offer to cancel some rather expensive life insurance we have on me to give her a nest egg to start over with. She was absolutely horrified with the thought of something that final (I'd never get another similar policy) happening. She has made herself a "very" big mess and I don't think she can find her way out of it. I'm trying to give her space to get her head clear and hoping that there are enough positive influences around for her to make up her mind, ideally to stay and rebuild our M or to leave and find happiness elsewhere. I do confess to trying to manipulate it indirectly by trying to make her talk with her B happen - which is something she said she wanted. As long as she doesn't see my hand in that it may help. To date she's refused to go to therapy but I know she's investigated it.
One other thing that I've not really talked about here is that yes - she has betrayed our marriage. However in addition to being my wife she has also been my best friend for more than half of my life and she is also part of my family. At our age a spouse is more a friend than a bed-partner anyway. And for me, you don't abandon friends or family if they make a mistake even if they have hurt you. Does that make me a door-mat? Maybe. Does it make me an AndrewP that feels good about doing what he believes in? Hell Yes. I will continue to express my hurt and disgust about her A but since she - as a grown woman - has said she wanted to continue it I cannot stop her and throwing her out would not stop her either.
In the mean-time I will use that most precious gift that MWD talks about - the gift of time to try to heal myself and then possibly our MR. It's very hard to do though and the pain can be overwhelming like it is today.
One other thing that I've not really talked about here is that yes - she has betrayed our marriage. However in addition to being my wife she has also been my best friend for more than half of my life and she is also part of my family.
And for me, you don't abandon friends or family if they make a mistake even if they have hurt you.
- Do you believe that she has betrayed only your marriage? What about your friendship? Is this the kind of person you would want as your friend?
- There is a difference between abandonment and detachment. She's going to live her life as she chooses. But why would you want to let yourself repeatedly get hurt? At some point, enough has to be enough. Let's go back to basics. What are your goals? What do you WANT?
I find it hard to believe that kids in their 20s would blame a parent for kicking out a spouse who is actively engaged in adultery.
How did your doctor's appointment go the other day? Did you get tested?
In response to your last update - I'm not surprised she's told you she's staying with OM this weekend. This is what I meant by how you're in the friend zone. She's comfortable sharing things with you just like she would tell a friend.
I'm sad that you told her, "the waiting for her to make a choice was giving me a lot of pain but that I would wait until there was no more hope." You deserve so much better than to wait around while she has a relationship with another man. You're choosing to wait for her. That is your choice. I hope you're still working on yourself as well. Have you sought out another counselor?
dream - yes I got my tests collected - waiting for the results. The DR didn't seem concerned about the weight loss but there were a lot more tests done than just STD and she's asked me to monitor my blood pressure. I also got a referral to another IC - waiting to see when they can fit me in.
Thanks again for your calm voice.
- Do you believe that she has betrayed only your marriage? What about your friendship? Is this the kind of person you would want as your friend?
- There is a difference between abandonment and detachment. She's going to live her life as she chooses. But why would you want to let yourself repeatedly get hurt? At some point, enough has to be enough. Let's go back to basics. What are your goals? What do you WANT?
darknes - as usual you pose the tough questions I struggle with. I'm going to ignore the first one because I honestly don't have an answer to it.
For the second one ... I want to move on and build a new life, ideally with W but on my own if necessary. Because I care deeply for this person I also want W to be happy but know that she has to find it for herself and that I can't make it for her. This I struggle with a lot because I'm a "fix-it" kind of guy and waiting for the glue to dry or the putty to set is difficult. I do know that to get the plan A of a new MR will require patience. I will face abuse and setbacks and I need to find the strength within to endure it for something I believe in so strongly while still standing my own ground as best as I can. I also need to accept that I may fail in that goal.
I feel your pain Andrew. We have all been through it, it [censored].
I would re-read DR. It took me the second time to really understand everything. The worst thing you could do is tell your WW (she is without a doubt WW) that you will wait until there is no hope. That will just prolong the situation.
If I were in your situation (which I kind of was minus the rubbing my nose in it part), I would be more or less be avoiding my WW and start living my life completely separately. Getting out of the house is a good start (yes I know you don't want to do that). I understand the friendship part. My wife has been my best friend since I was 10, I get it. You need to start doing what is best for Andrew.
You can do this
I find it hard to believe that kids in their 20s would blame a parent for kicking out a spouse who is actively engaged in adultery.
Rose888 - We are FAMILY and to us that transcends everything else. While they may not "blame" me for kicking her out, they most certainly would blame me for not trying every possible thing in my power to try to heal the family. Just as I would blame myself if I didn't try.
I think it's different when there are young kids involved. For them as a parent you need to guide them and protect them from the evils in the world. In my case S22 who is the only one who has a glimmer of what is going on (doesn't know about the A - I intend to keep it that way) has been hugely supportive of me while still supporting W and has been a great source of strength when I needed it. I've held off telling D24 because it is her 4th wedding anniversary today and I wouldn't spoil that for the world. It's only been a month since the big BD2 and there hasn't been time enough to have a good separation between the sad and the happy. I had asked S22 after Mother's Day to talk to D24 because I felt he would have a balanced opinion but for whatever reason - he never did - so now it will be up to me. W had only told them that we were having "problems", down-played it a lot and never told me that she had told them until it came up just before Mother's Day. I think I treat them more as adults than she does personally. W also has stronger personal / sharing boundaries than I do. While she has no control over what I do anymore I do try to balance / respect her attitudes with mine.
I write both S22 and D24 a letter every month and this month will explore the challenges I am facing health-wise and in getting through to W trying to heal our family. I will not cast blame or disrespect W in any fashion in that letter. Even here as I've mentioned before now, I have written nothing that I would be ashamed to say to W's face although I admit some of it would be awkward. I'm planning on writing the letter - rather later than usual - in a bit over a week.
Who knows? With how fast this changes direction we may be going down a sunny path again by then.
You need to start doing what is best for Andrew.
You can do this
Thanks pinn - That is truth that you've said. None of are perfect, especially in DBing. Some of us are even less perfect than others. All I can do is pick myself back up and keep moving forward.
I find it hard to believe that kids in their 20s would blame a parent for kicking out a spouse who is actively engaged in adultery.
We are FAMILY and to us that transcends everything else. While they may not "blame" me for kicking her out, they most certainly would blame me for not trying every possible thing in my power to try to heal the family. Just as I would blame myself if I didn't try.
I think it's this that is troubling me the most. You say you want to heal the family, but I cant see any steps that youve taken to actually do that.
Im not saying that you should or shouldnt. But why do you think kicking W out is not a step towards healing? Why do you think that putting your foot down that you wont be disrespected and wont be her Plan B is not a step on the path towards having your family be whole again?
You can call it abandonment all you want. But I think that it's a step towards your goals.
AndrewP,
darknes is being exceedingly kind.
I don't know if there's a cultural difference or if it's something else, but when a WW tells her H that she's going to go boink the OM this weekend, then that normally elicits a reflexive response of foot to @ss in the direction of the door. What's up? Do you have no boundaries?
We are FAMILY and to us that transcends everything else. While they may not "blame" me for kicking her out, they most certainly would blame me for not trying every possible thing in my power to try to heal the family. Just as I would blame myself if I didn't try.
I think it's this that is troubling me the most. You say you want to heal the family, but I cant see any steps that youve taken to actually do that.
Im not saying that you should or shouldnt. But why do you think kicking W out is not a step towards healing? Why do you think that putting your foot down that you wont be disrespected and wont be her Plan B is not a step on the path towards having your family be whole again?
You can call it abandonment all you want. But I think that it's a step towards your goals.
darkens - and I think that this is fundamentally where you and I most often disagree. You generally (appear to) espouse the stronger steps where I tend to be more conciliatory - call it door-mat if you wish. To me and S22 and D24 our family's WW is still part of our family and always will be even if she walks her own path. To best heal the family requires keeping her within our fold. If she walks her own path then the bond between she and I will be strained and only via S22 and D24 and that will be difficult for all of us.
Not being a religious man I can't help but think of the parable of the lost lamb.
As far as the steps I've taken - I'm giving her space to find herself and am letting her make up her own mind. Yes - I'm getting hurt and hurt quite badly in the process and I often wonder why I do this myself. One of the reasons that I'm here is that I really DON'T know what else to do. I try to evaluate all the suggestions with as open of a mind as I'm capable of but I need to balance those with my own moral compass of who I am and what I'm willing to do. I do know that trying to push her out or in any particular direction will not work. Neither does pulling her. So - pushing the door doesn't work, pulling the door doesn't work so I'm left sitting outside the door, working on myself and waiting for the door to open knowing all the while that the door may be broken within.
- sorry Friday afternoon here - digesting Thai food (almost got my calories for the day already) seems to make me talk in allegories.
I agree that family is critically important and that spouses should take responsibility for working on their marriage. I won't go so far as to say they should do everything in their power, because I think that can be interpreted in unhealthy ways. There is sometimes tension between the needs of family members and the needs of the family unit, and I think families need to find a balance.
However, staying in the same house is not always the best way to work on a marriage.
I usually find alpha males obnoxious and repulsive, but you could use a touch of that assertiveness. Thanking your wife for telling you she is going to spend the night with the OM is . . . odd.
Thanking your wife for telling you she is going to spend the night with the OM is . . . odd.
Very odd, indeed.
AndrewP,
darknes is being exceedingly kind.
I don't know if there's a cultural difference or if it's something else, but when a WW tells her H that she's going to go boink the OM this weekend, then that normally elicits a reflexive response of foot to @ss in the direction of the door. What's up? Do you have no boundaries?
doodler - another good question. Yes - I have boundaries. They don't apply to her - she has to have her own boundaries. It may be a cultural difference that considers her part of my family still (Scottish descent) and yes I've felt that reflexive twitch in my foot.
If I've learned nothing else from being here about a month it's that I as an individual cannot change my WW. I can express my disapproval, I can weep quietly into my pillow at night but nothing I do will change her. I can only change myself.
A foot to the @ss as you so cleverly put it to avoid the censor button might make me feel good temporarily. It might possibly even shake her loose from her fog but knowing my WW as a man can know a woman over 27 years, I know that if she is pushed, she will rise up like a tiger and fight back. I truly don't know what would happen then.
I remember many years ago I came across some young punks on the street vandalizing property. Being stupid - and still AndrewP - I collared the worst of the offenders and told him in no uncertain terms to fix up what he had broken. They all pulled knives on me. I had a knife of my own (pocket variety) and there we were in a stand-off until others arrived and broke it up. Perhaps not the best analogy - but nothing constructive was accomplished. The vandalized property was still vandalized and serious injury nearly happened to a number of rather stupid and over-testosteroned young men.
Thanking your wife for telling you she is going to spend the night with the OM is . . . odd.
Very odd, indeed.
Not quite. I was thanking my wife for having the courtesy of honestly telling me where she was going and with whom. She's been doing it about pretty much all her movements for the last number of days (I didn't notice at first). The fact that one of her many movements is to be with OM - and only spoken of in terms of being away overnight was unfortunate. But I also need to remember that I originally acknowledged on BD her stated intention to continue the A while at the same time and since then making it clear that I find it very hurtful and that it is not something that I personally accept but know that I have no control over. I don't have to like where she is going or what she is doing there and yes - I feel rather soiled by being told, but the fact that she is making an effort to be courteous and honest to me is a looong way from where we were a couple of weeks ago.
Honesty is a virtue that I prize very highly and W knows that and prizes it herself even though she has always struggled with it.
Sometimes you hear things said honestly that are unpleasant or that you don't want to hear. That's just the way it is when you listen to the truth.
You say you appreciate your wife being honest with you. I suppose it's good (?) to know that she has plans to have sex with her boyfriend this weekend... now you know where her thoughts have been and what her plans are for herself. However, I don't think she is being fully honest with you. She's leading you on and giving you false hope. I think she has no interest in working things out with you. I think, unfortunately, that you will be sitting here waiting for her until the day she hands you divorce papers and tells you that she's moving in with OM.
Has you relationship always been this way? She does whatever she wants and you just take it??
With regards to the lost lamb, in my eyes, it is you who is lost and we are trying to find you... yet you keep looking for your wife who has joined another flock.
You cannot change her. But you can change yourself. You can make yourself into a man only a fool would leave. Right now, it doesn't matter if she leaves because you told her you would be right here waiting for her...
It might possibly even shake her loose from her fog but knowing my WW as a man can know a woman over 27 years, I know that if she is pushed, she will rise up like a tiger and fight back. I truly don't know what would happen then.
I think this risk/chance is worth taking. You certainly aren't going to work things out the way things are going right now. There's no need to push her, but there is a need to stand up for yourself.
But I also need to remember that I originally acknowledged on BD her stated intention to continue the A while at the same time and since then making it clear that I find it very hurtful and that it is not something that I personally accept but know that I have no control over.
What does "not accepting" it mean to you?
It certainly seems to me like you are willing to accept it.........
Wow Andrew. Dream is (always) right. How can you expect to be a third wheel between your WW and OM? I never want to be a third wheel. I've never been a third wheel actually, but don't plan on doing that for OM2 and my WW.
She just got her WiFi on and the first person she called was OM2, right next to me. Just friends chat really. So I ask myself does she really think that I think they're friends. Anyhows, acting as-if and enjoying the evening.
You are not even acting as-if, you're actually saying, thx for fcking someone else and telling me about it. Not good. Not good at all.
What does "not accepting" it mean to you?
It certainly seems to me like you are willing to accept it.........
Wow - I can't recall ever getting this much attention on my thread.
darknes - that's another interesting question as always. "Not accepting" to me means that I state clearly that something that another adult is doing is not something that I think is "right". I do have to "accept" though that WW is herself an adult and makes her own choices in life whether I agree with them or not. She is not my property, heck she's barely my wife. Other than stamping my little feet there is little that I feel that I can do.
Perhaps yes - I could use the evidence that I have filed away and push for a D with cause (allowed where I live). Or perhaps I could make threats to force her out of the matrimonial home which the constable who lives 2 doors down (and is a friend of WW's) would vigorously oppose. I could threaten to expose the A to our children and our families. Pounding my ape-chest and screaming into the night I feel none of this would do anything other than give me a minor bit of revenge.
Do I feel impotent? Damned straight I do. Am I impotent as far as affecting others? Yes I am. And that is why I cry in the night and try to smile in the day.
Not good enough Andrew. I don't mean to get personal but you stand for nothing.
What do you really want to do? What do you believe is the right thing to do? Then just do it. If that's D then do it. If that's you leaving then do it.
BUT DONT DO NOTHING.
No, don't pound your chest. Very unattractive, and also pointless.
But "not accepting it" should mean more than saying that it's wrong. That's not agreeing with it, which is a much weaker thing.
"Not accepting" would involve separate living quarters and separate finances.
You say you appreciate your wife being honest with you. I suppose it's good (?) to know that she has plans to have sex with her boyfriend this weekend... now you know where her thoughts have been and what her plans are for herself. However, I don't think she is being fully honest with you. She's leading you on and giving you false hope. I think she has no interest in working things out with you. I think, unfortunately, that you will be sitting here waiting for her until the day she hands you divorce papers and tells you that she's moving in with OM.
Has you relationship always been this way? She does whatever she wants and you just take it??
With regards to the lost lamb, in my eyes, it is you who is lost and we are trying to find you... yet you keep looking for your wife who has joined another flock.
You cannot change her. But you can change yourself. You can make yourself into a man only a fool would leave. Right now, it doesn't matter if she leaves because you told her you would be right here waiting for her...
I think this risk/chance is worth taking. You certainly aren't going to work things out the way things are going right now. There's no need to push her, but there is a need to stand up for yourself.
dream - [insert swear word here] I know that she has plans to have sex with another man. I've known that since BD2! She told me then. Can I do a damned thing about it? No. Should I shove my head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't happen if she doesn't tell me? No. Should I put on my big boy pants and if she does tell me, go ape-crazy? Or do I tell her like one adult to another that it is a cruel thing to do to me? That's about the best I think I can do right now. Using my fantastic mind-reading powers I believe that she doesn't want to hurt me will still do whatever she can to get that rush. Perhaps she's more like a junkie than anything else.
Yes I'm not perfect and perhaps telling her that I will wait for her was a mistake. Each situation IS different though while there are a lot of similarities enough to show that detaching, GAL etc are worthwhile in and of themselves and can have an impact on bringing a couple back together when they are apart and help build up people who are broken like I am. H@ll - if she were to hand me divorce papers this evening and say she's moving in with OM I'd sign right away. I could move on and she'd be happy.
Part of who I am and who I have been over the 27 years of marriage - 26 of which were if not great, at least very good - is I've always been the safe harbour for her. The calm place she can go when life gets to be too much. Yes - I - like my father before me and all my brothers - tend to be passive. We all married strong women. We are reliable, trustworthy, honest and do get taken advantage of. I know this about myself and the other men in my family. Much of this I admire except the last bit.
Has my wife joined another flock? I don't know. Am I a lost shepherd (sorry not very lamb-like) - yes I am. The analogy breaks down here - a bit over-used. Can I find my way back to myself? I'm trying. There's a story by author Terry Pratchett where two characters are surrounded by mirrors and told that the can escape if they can find the one that is "real". One character runs off to check each of the mirrors. The second one looks down at her boots and says this one right here. That's what I'm trying to do. I don't succeed most days - but that's where I feel I need to be. Looking down at my own boots and being comfortable in them. Can the people here on these forums find me? No. I do however appreciate them putting up signs for me to read that show the paths that they themselves have taken. Does that turn me into a man that only a fool would leave? I really don't know the answer to that question. I do intend that it turns me into me though - what other people including WW think of that person is up to them.
AndrewP,
Is there anything that your wife could do that would be so unacceptable to you that you'd ask her to leave?
No, don't pound your chest. Very unattractive, and also pointless.
But "not accepting it" should mean more than saying that it's wrong. That's not agreeing with it, which is a much weaker thing.
"Not accepting" would involve separate living quarters and separate finances.
Rose888 - I don't know - it's a nice chest - lots of hair even if grey and pretty manly. I would suggest it would sound pretty nice if I pounded on it
I do agree that my stance is a much weaker stance than has been suggested. I do tend to have a soft touch - perhaps too soft which may be why I ended up here. "Your" stance on what "not accepting" means doesn't have to be the same as mine though.
To address your and DDJ's points - I am realistically only a month into this journey. We have separate sleeping quarters - WW's own idea which I objected to but now know has been best for both of us. Is that "everything" I could do? Absolutely not. Am I willing to go farther? I really don't know. I do know though that this is still early days and that small actions that I take now could have big results (See? I did read the DB book). I do believe that big actions now would have a small effect in the long run or blow the whole thing apart. WW is not engaged in our MR. I don't know if she knows this but I certainly do. She does however seem to be drifting back - again - small changes that I believe I need to be patient about. Is she going to have sex with OM again? Undoubtedly. Is there any d@mned thing I can do about that even if I forced a separation or D? No. So why do it other than for my own pride? She will eat cake - but I won't be feeding it to her. I'll be trying to figure out how to be in the next room making an omelet.
Am I doing nothing? I don't think so. I'm working on me. I'm learning from people like yourself and others about their own journeys and about what paths they took and how those paths turned out. Those lessons I am trying to take to heart even when I don't agree with them.
Anyway - that's about all I've got for now. I've been inspired and overwhelmed by the support I have gotten today from everyone. It's made me feel great that so many people have been so kind to share their thoughts with this lost lamb.
Time to quit wasting the company's money though and head for the subway and my 3 hour journey home.
Thank you all again.
AndrewP,
Is there anything that your wife could do that would be so unacceptable to you that you'd ask her to leave?
Yes - she could violate the very simple ground-rules we agreed to at the beginning and invite OM into our marital home.
On the other hand, I agreed to no snooping (emptying the garbage doesn't "quite" count). If I started hacking into her computer, or if I violated the "nothing stupid" by announcing her A on Facebook, or if I went after OM to smash his face in, it would be more than reasonable for her to do the same.
There are two of us in this dance even if we are listening to different music.
Yes you can do something about it, you can tell her as long as she continues to disrespect you and the marriage she can find another place to live. You can let her know that while you may still love her you refuse to allow yourself to be humiliated this way.
All you are doing right now is telling your W you don't like that she is sleeping with another man but if and when she stops you'll still be around for her. That's ludicrous, time for action
Oh boy - I'm with the majority here Andrew. Your W is deep into an A and has a warped sense of what's 'OK.' Her behaviour is deeply disrespectful and her sense of entitlement has beer believing she can go off for a lustful weekend with OM and continue in the MH during the week.
She won't change that, but you can. Believe me, a doormat guy with no boundaries is not attractive. I think the correct response would be - It's up to you how you spend your weekend - but if that's what you want to do, you are not welcome to return on Sunday evening.
JMHO of course - and sorry if the 2x4 sounds harsh...
I do respect everyone's opinions here. They come from a place of hurt that I know well. There are no simple answers though to a complex problem. Wheels are in motion and I'm the guy on the ground so I'm following my gut on this one. I do certainly admit that I am somewhat blinded because I am close to the issue but I have a lot more of the facts too.
No matter what I do - I cannot change her behaviour myself. Only she can do that. The A has been going on for some months. Her having sex with another man has been a fact that I have had to acknowledge exists. I don't like it but there's not one d@mned thing I can do about it. If she wasn't here she would be even more free to carry it on and perhaps feel more justified in doing so. The fact that she - in a well intended way - let me know that she was going away changes nothing. The LBH isn't the only one who doesn't always follow the standard script. One thing that I didn't mention was that the information came up because she was offering to take her dog - that I don't like - with her. A stinky, barky dog would have been the "perfect" compliment to a romantic night and in some ways perhaps I should have said "sure". He however is not currently well, has been having separation anxiety and it is best for the dog if he and I have a movie night tonight. Her telling me came from a place of honesty and respect for the fact that I don't like her dog.
I do challenge the idea that I am a doormat with no boundaries. My boundaries and attitudes are my own and I feel that I am standing true to them. And I truly don't give a rat's @ss whether anyone finds me or my attitudes attractive. I am working hard on being ME - W - and everyone else can take it or leave it but I am rediscovering who I am and personally, I quite like the guy.
As I said earlier - she's not saying anything - so I don't have to discount that. However her attitudes and actions appear to have swung not 180 degrees but certainly well past 60 degrees back towards being a member of our family again. Even if I only believe half of that it's still 30 degrees. I certainly feel that she is finding me more attractive as a man and a better companion than she has in many months. I don't know how I compare to OM - and I absolutely truly don't care. It's weird to say that but yes - it's true.
One thing that I keep telling myself is that this is a long journey and there are no quick fixes. I'll keep flapping my butterfly wings and get myself to my own goal. Who knows - perhaps I might also cause a hurricane.
You can let her know that while you may still love her you refuse to allow yourself to be humiliated this way.
WSB - I wasn't going to respond directly to this since you are repeating what a lot of other people are saying but you raise an interesting point that I would like to address.
Of my core principals, Honour, Truth, Loyalty are among the top. These are not everyone's principals including W's especially at present and I don't expect them to be. The respect of others, while it is pleasant, is not a key driver of who I am or what I do. Despite what Shakespeare may say, in many ways I AM an island. That is one reason why for many years our marriage worked. We were two independent people who overlapped on some areas but not all.
Humiliation is something that you take on to yourself as a mark of shame in front of other people. I do not accept the humiliation that others may feel that I should be feeling. I feel proud that I am standing true to my own principals, to my marriage oath (which W at one point tried to tell me didn't matter), and myself. Just because she has broken her oath does not mean that I need to. Our oaths were separate and I am true to mine. To love, honour and cherish from this day forward. In no part of MY oath was there anything about her being loyal and true to me.
I once had a room-mate who was an undergrad studying psychology - he always said that whoever wrote a paper about my personality would have no trouble getting grant money
Hi Andrew, I don't mean to cause any offence and what I meant was - it doesn't matter if I find that attractive - but I presume if your W doesn't find it attractive, that's a problem.
I don't believe your stance will win her back. If she is all into OM just now, she'll take whatever she can get and if that's you carrying her case out to the car, that will be just great for her. If that's you holding true to your vows and waiting in the wings, I don't think that is going to attract her back.
I think a more alpha approach is likely to be more effective - and of course DBing is about doing what works. Your aim I think is to plant seeds of doubt in her mind - I don't think things can be the same if I carry on like this. It looks as though I may lose Andrew etc.
Of course you could carry on as you are. And OM is likely to be a bit of a moron - that he has become involved in this situation in the first place says all we need to know about him. You could choose to wait it out and carry on with your current approach - however, I think that then relies on the A 'running it's course' as opposed to her being attracted back to you. And you may be happy with that - in which case fine.
Good luck with whatever course you take. For my part, I never regretted telling my H there would never be a R with me whilst there was one with OW. And I never regretted us living apart as I knew from the very bottom of my heart - that I could never live like that. However, my H has just finalised our D - go figure....his loss! but I am doing ok regardless.
Take care
AndrewP,
To cut to the chase, you're telling us that you're okay with an open marriage; is that correct?
AndrewP,
To cut to the chase, you're telling us that you're okay with an open marriage; is that correct?
doodler - nope that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there is nothing I can do about what my WW is doing. She's a big girl and makes her own choices as do I. My choice is to be true to my own standards and morals which at present are not in line with her's. No amount of threats or ultimatums will change any of that. Whether she is here or somewhere else she'll continue to do whatever the h@ll she wants at this point.
Rambling, semi-coherent justifications follow as usual on my posts.
One thing that gets lost in all of this though I think is her. We label our WW with an abbreviation and tar them all with the same broad brushes. Behind that though is an individual who came to make choices that have hurt others. I'm working on trying to find that person as well as myself and I have found her at least some of the time. I also remember that she is a person who I have loved and admired and respected who I feel has made a mistake.
I also think that I have come across here as rather passive. I have chosen to try to find joy in every day, not hate or anger. I do "feel" anger like when WW told me she was leaving for the day and I assure you that she knows of that anger. She also knows of at least some of the pain I feel but I am positive she is blind to most of it. I am the sort of person though who doesn't strike out at others either physically or emotionally. I do stand my ground even when people walk around it. There is nothing I can do about the paths that other people walk but have no doubt, those around me are very clear on where I stand.
I also feel that I need some more time. MWD and many of the other moderators emphasize the importance of time. I've also literally spent days reading everything I can put my hand on by sandi2. I wish some day that I could give that woman a hug for all of the comfort that she has brought to so many with her perspective. Buried in what she has written though is the story of how she herself turned away from the WW path. It was through the intervention of a trusted relative who helped her to see the path she was on. In my own case my WW has told me last week that she is going to seek the advice of her brother. A man that she trusts, respects and who with his wife has healed from his own A. I've nudged that along and they are having lunch next Sunday. How that will turn out and what choices W may make after, I have no idea. I can only hope for clarity and action from her.
In the mean time I am working hard on my own GAL and on detaching. To me and from what I've read detaching is more like putting the other into the "friend zone" more than walking away from them. My W and I have been communicating more and have even dipped our toes into R talk. I am still the man that I've always been who was lost for a while and we are both rediscovering who that is. I'm also working hard on listening to who W is. Having spent over half our lives together doesn't mean that you know someone and their hopes and dreams nearly as well as you might want to.
One poster on my thread, darknes I think it was, gave me an excellent point that I didn't really "hear" at the time that I'm going to try to repeat here. The comments on that thread are all around "getting my W back" and "making W feel pain for the hurt she's caused" and my own comments were a whining complaint about needing "good" advice on how to work with my W. darknes's point was that DB isn't necessarily all about healing a marriage. It's about healing yourself.
So - my best friend is currently out with OM. I am hurt, I am angry but I am still ME. Tonight I will probably sob into my pillow. And yes, we still live under the same roof but sleep in separate beds. And yes, we are civil and human to each other.
I will not however take this out on WW and make any attempt to "punish" her or force her into a path not of her own choosing by making threats or demands. They won't do any good on her - they might work on others but I'm positive that they won't work on her. Instead I will continue to be me and try to find the joy in the world. I will hope that W will be able to find her own heart and make her own path in the world. If W choses to walk beside me and share that joy then that's fabulous. If not, I will walk my path alone. Right now she is still lost even if she seems to be rediscovering herself and me. Today is part of a journey I actually believe that she NEEDS to take to determine if her path lies with OM or on her own. How can she possibly make that choice if access to OM is denied to her? Now that the cover is off her A to me my mind-reading powers tell me that a lot of the thrill of the secrecy and being a "bad girl" has also faded. Giving them time alone to discover each other may pull them closer together, or it may push them apart. Up to now it's largely been clandestine meetings and EA conversations. Adding the stinky, barky dog might have helped with the reality check but I have too much heart to subject him to that stress. I am trusting in her to find her own path and give us both peace and a future. For me, I know where my path lies and am walking it.
So - to re-iterate, no - I'm not OK with an open marriage. Right now my marriage is broken apart into many pieces and does not exist as a "whole" thing. I have found many of my pieces but W would need to find her own pieces and then we could try to put them together to make a new marriage if those are the choices we both make.
P.S. - I'm just about to start our ironing but can't find your shirts. And where are those peanut butter cookies? I know you've had time to buy more peanut butter after your W emptied the pantry
Hi Andrew,
I won't comment on much accept to say that I think you need put your 'mind-reading powers' on the back burner and stop using them. They might be right, might be wrong but I am positive they are doing you no good. That's it :-).
I really wish some of the posters who were around when I first joined were still around for you.
Have fun ironing tonight.
I think it best if I step away from the forums at least for now. They are becoming a source of stress in my life and taking far too much of my time that I could better devote to higher priorities.
I would like to thank all of those whose sympathy and kindness have helped sustain me in this journey.
I would also like to thank those of you who challenged me to open my mind and reconsider my thoughts and priorities.
I would finally like to thank MWD and her team for providing this forum and their books as a tool for those of us who gather here to heal.
Good bye.
AndrewP,
I understand, and that's probably not a bad idea. But, my guess is that the real source of your stress is your cognitive dissonance.
I hope you're able to work through your issues and come back and give us an update on your situation at some point in time. In the meantime, I'll be baking some peanut butter cookies with you in mind.
Take care.
Andrew,
It's probably a good idea for you to take the time to evaluate your situation rationally, rather than debating with other posters on the forum. You will see the stress is coming from the conflict between your view of your marriage and reality.
I thirds that Andrew, i've actually decided that I will spend no more than 2 hours on this forum a day. An hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. I'm actually adding these to my goals.
The reason is that I lose myself in the forum, not because of the forum, not at all - the support is life-changing and I would not be here without every single person on here, literally!
I lose myself because i'm actually thinking of my WW when on the forum. The aim is to detach, so i will rather use the forum to share my thoughts, not my WWs illness (LOL).
Just a quick update and then I'm gone again until there is something else worth reporting. I'll maybe swing by in a day or so to look at any replies but don't intend to engage in the active arguing / debate that coloured my earlier time here.
Well - I was very wrong about a bunch of things I thought I knew and still honestly have no clue as to what is going on.
I had a chance to talk to my brother in law two weeks ago at a family reunion who lets everything that goes in his ears fall out of his mouth. He put some context around what was happening for me from what W told him of her view of her fairy tale as of May 29th (2 weeks earlier). His actual intention was to point out to me how stupid I was and how right he was so I let him keep spilling beans as much as I could. He was quite shocked that we were there together and expected us to be in the middle of separation negotiation. For my part I dropped some comments (including some rude words) on what I thought of WW and OM and expressed the opinion that many days I wished that she would just leave. He told me that I would need to give W an ultimatum to get any movement otherwise things would just go on as they were (which many people here have also said). In a later "thank you for the straight talk" message to him I told him that I was reluctantly working on such a message. I figure that all this got back to W with some embellishment.
So what I'm guessing is that it might not have been her original intention but at some point my WW decided that OM was her saviour and that she would leave me and go straight to him as a blushing bride. This shift may have happened on April 30th when I gave her the "we've split" budget and she ran to him after crying crocodile tears at me and saying she was sorry. The affair heated up more at that point including the infamous romantic weekend that nearly killed me. My WW doesn't talk to me but from her actions, moods, and the result it would appear that everything came to a head on June 4th when she left to go to OM I'm guessing to deliver an ultimatum. She came home crying much earlier than expected after only having had about 30 minutes with him. Right after that there were several days of what appeared to be epic texting battles, mood swings etc and from what I can tell the affair is now over. She's not had any unaccounted disappearances that I can detect, the flow on social media has changed dramatically, there are few "secret" phone calls etc. When she does go away out of ear-shot or out of the house on a call she will often tell me who it was when she comes back in (often her sister).
W is also getting a lot more comfortable around me. We've even had an argument about the usual sort of nothing that couples will argue about. She still is rejecting me physically and emotionally and I generally don't push it and seem to be getting a bit more connected as time goes on as long as I give her lots of space. More and more she is treating me with courtesy and respect and she is still very open about where she is / going etc. She does still appear to have one foot firmly out the door and has made occasional moves in that direction. She appears to have a big amount of distrust of me which is somewhat new and I work hard to be worthy of trust. I continue to be positive around her, compliment her when she does something well and when she looks extra nice etc. She now generally accepts those compliments.
So - as far as I can tell, my WW has turned back into a WAW. I worry that she'll be running to another OM but to be honest, pickings are slim around here for someone who is available, would want her, and would meet her requirements. She shows no sign of remorse to me but does seem to regret that things didn't work out the way she wanted them to. She is also spending a lot less time interacting with the "friends" who were enabling her before.
On my side, my GAL has been good. While I still have trouble holding it together sometimes and I still do focus a lot of time and attention on worrying about W and our R I feel that I am largely a whole human being again and able to survive on my own. I'm fortunate in that W has given "me" space to do this and I think she's confused a bit about how independent from her I've become. I've been basically being a "lighthouse" (
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619 ) for W and myself. While I keep her appraised (generally) of what I'm doing etc I don't ask her permission and if there's something I want to do I will often invite her and then shrug my shoulders and do it anyway if she's not interested which is generally the case. I am also preparing myself for a split from W both mentally and practically.
Now for where things are going. I've taken control of the agenda.
Today I will have my first meeting with a lawyer to talk about proceeding to a divorce / avoiding a divorce. We have a process here called "collaborative law" which tries to keep everything out of court. I'm not explicitly pulling the trigger on this but I want to have everything in place in case I need to. Also with this process, it can be easily stopped if W has a change of heart. I made sure to select a firm that has expertise in both collaborative law and divorce. The usual path here is separation for a year then divorce but infidelity is considered grounds to go right to divorce. I see no purpose in separation at this point. I want to make sure that we can start gradually so that W can change her mind before we get too far.
Tomorrow I have my first session with a new IC who I will work with to try to get stronger to survive all of this. I've been fortunate that I have two good friends who have been very supportive but I believe that I have burned them out with my drama. I will also be asking the IC for her opinion on my planned next step. Tomorrow is also W's birthday and we're going out for dinner together and then I've organized some cupcakes and phone calls with S22 and D24. And yes - I've gotten a card and while it expresses love it is not excessively clingy.
Next Wednesday I am planning on leaving a letter for W to read when she gets home from work. I'll be home as well but will exit the house so that she can react in peace. I've been working on this letter since I had my talk with my BIL and it's not "quite" how I told him it would be written. In it I tell her how much I love her and that I have stood by her through all of this and still want her back. It goes on to say that we've been growing together recently but that I'm still very confused. It then suggests that the time has come for a reconciliation and that I am giving her a "reasonable amount" of time to think about it. It does also say that if she doesn't want to reconcile or if she can't decide that I will be seeking legal advice on ending the marriage. Also - like most things I write it is rather long but I did manage to fit it on a single side of a sheet of paper. I'm going to have my L review it to make sure that there isn't anything that will bite me if it is used in court.
I believe that I've given W enough time to recover from the ending of her dreams and the A (if it IS over) and she seems a lot better lately and is hopefully ready for this. Unlike my first draft which was very blunt and had a 48 hour deadline this is a much softer message (I'm a wimp). W has NEVER liked talking about our R or issues and if i tried to deliver this message in person I would stumble and screw it up badly. In a letter she can absorb it and she'll have time to think about it and honestly decide with less pressure.
I've already checked with the banks we deal with to make sure that I can trigger a split in our finances and have already done that with computer files except our shared budget which is in the cloud. That is two mouse-clicks to sever. Both of my brothers now know about us having "troubles" but not about the A which is still a secret. I can count on them to help keep things safe for W to get her stuff out of the house.
I just can't keep going on like this. I've lost 40 lbs since April and while I have gotten better my mental health is still rather fragile.
Wish me luck.
AndrewP,
Good luck!
I cooked a huge batch of peanut butter cookies for you and then I ate every one of them myself. I gained the 40 pounds that you lost. Now I've got a big old bubble butt.
Good luck. I've read your story, and it was interesting to say the least.
I ended up giving W my letter last week after she was going on about leaving yet again and she saw the cheque to the lawyer getting cashed. I wanted to get in front of any actual departure.
I sat across from her as she read it. After she said she needed to think about it. In essence it said that I wanted to reconcile and am willing to ignore the past but that if she didn't, or if she didn't tell me in a "reasonable time" that I would end the marriage.
I asked yesterday morning if she had come to a decision and no she hadn't. She continues to avoid me and while I think she "is" thinking about it I'm not confident that she'll stay.
I'm pretty sure she knows that the cake eating is coming to an end though.
Still no sign of OM either.
In the mean-time I'm doing buckets of research into the legal process, pre-filling out forms and scanning supporting documents to be able to act quickly and save legal fees. I also spent a lot of last week while I was on vacation scanning in photos from around the house that are important to me and that I don't want to lose.
I'm feeling better and more in control of what is going on. My brothers now know the full story and it's good to have that support. I have no clue at all where this is going to go but I have a July 13th deadline in my head now.
I'm feeling more in control of what is going on.
This is interesting phrasing...
Im still hoping for the best for you.
Thanks darknes - as you would point out - "the best for you" might not be a reconciliation. I think I've come to terms with that. I just wish that this would be over one way or the other so I can move on.
Just a minor update. W has been getting more friendly and engaged with me and our home. I can almost see improvements each day. Still no sign of OM and no renewed talk of leaving but also no mention of staying. She also has not been engaging with many of the "friends" who I feel were encouraging her to leave and have fun with her A.
W has also been working crazy hours which led me to today's screw-up. She was so very tired this morning that I popped around the table and gave her a supportive quick kiss on the top of her head and started to give her a very detached sort of hug. I saw her tense up as I leaned in but it was too late to stop the quick peck and she was a bit upset afterwards but didn't make a scene. She seemed more angry than disgusted but there seemed to be a bit of both in there. From other signs I'd thought she was ready for something as minimal as that - WRONG! When I left for work I knocked on the spare room door where she's been since April to say "good bye" and she came out seeming annoyed with a "what did you say?" She seemed mollified when I told her. Perhaps she was expecting to have to reject a follow-up on the hug attempt.
Oh well - one step forward - half a step back?
One question that probably has no answer. Presuming that she's ended her A along with her hopes and dreams that she had pinned on it how long would be reasonable for me to expect it to take to recover / how will I know? The A only ran as a PA from February, discovered in April, heated up in May and ended (?) at the start of June. She still has a strong support network which I'm quite sure she is leaning on still. I wish that I had some clue as to what is going on with her but neither mind-reading nor patience are my strong suits as followers of my thread will attest.
I opened up more fully to both of my brothers and their wives last Friday night after swearing them to secrecy and they have been very supportive. Both wives are completely positive that W is going through MLC / menopause and that she's sure to come back once her head clears. They've known her for many many years so I do give a lot of weight to their feedback. The older who is just finished going through her own peri-menopause is really pushing me to continue to be patient and not file for D. Unfortunately only the younger one is part of W's historical support network but hasn't been close to her since before the A in large part because she was in the middle of being pregnant.
Had a bit of a giggle today.
W had a long call with her brother today who had also had an A and he and is wife had reconciled. I had originally hoped that he would encourage W to drop her A and come back when it was in it's peak but instead he encouraged her to continue. She's off to visit him and his W and won't be back until tomorrow (freedom!). Since (I believe) that the A is over and that W is considering reconciliation then presumably our R will be a topic of conversation but who knows. I definitely don't know what his advice wold be to her now. I really wish that she would make up her "own" mind but she seems to be relying on the opinions of others which is part of what led her down the path to an A in the first place I believe.
The giggle was that W was packing some family heirlooms that were supposed to be passed on to her B but had been sitting in our house for the last year or more and she needed a box. She asked me if there were any around. I "almost" replied that yes - the closet in the spare room you have moved into is full of unused boxes that have been there for over a month but wisely pretended to not know about those and helped her find alternates.
I often wonder if I'm being tested on the "no snooping" rule or not - I just usually presume that I am even though I will confess here to relatively minor breaches. I try not to snoop because I don't want to find things that may be painful and my caring about what I might find gets less and less with each passing day. Sometimes W will leave things sitting out and I presume it to be a test (or laziness on her part), the most recent being mail from her insurance company. In the past, once it was opened and left out I would take it and file it since I'm the organized one. Now I just leave it sit until she either deals with it or asks me to. Generally she is very protective of her privacy and has a whole bag of stuff that she carries with her everywhere that contains heavens only knows what. There are things missing from our files that I presume have been carted around by her in that bag since just after BD.
A couple interesting other things though as our situation evolves in who knows what direction.
W went on quite a bit today about how much clutter there is in our house that is her doing and also how she's such a bitch. Being (perhaps far too) honest I didn't disagree but pointed out that I didn't really care too much about the clutter (partly true) and that the bitch part was just part of the package to me. She's always had a narrative of "I'm so horrible" which I've never really understood except when the A was on. Since I'm presuming that I'm more dealing with a WAW than a WW these days I do try to slip in the occasional "love you" in non-threatening ways and in such a fashion that she can hear it without hopefully feeling any pressure to respond so that I don't seem "too" pushy. So I'll say "I love you - have a good day" to which she'll respond "have a good day" back. It doesn't hurt me as much as it used to and while a month ago she would have looked angry and disgusted not she has no specific reaction I can see. Perhaps some day she'll smile. She's also been more accepting of the limited compliments that I try to sprinkle around every few days - as opposed to the lots of times every day when I was in full pursuit and pre-BD when I thought I was trying to cheer her up but was smothering her instead.
The other one was last night when I got home from work. If she's here and willing to talk (getting more common) I will ask her about her day and listen to her rant making sympathetic validating type noises. If she asks about my day (rare) I will not say much (because I don't think she cares) and then deflect the conversation back to her and listen to more ranting. I think it's safer for me if I keep my mouth shut most of the time and I don't think she's noticed - she never did pre-BD. However last night happend to mention in my 8 seconds of conversation that I had had lunch with a friend who was having some problems. She went away and did her own thing but then about 10 minutes later came back, sat with me and showed interest while I talked about the part of the conversation I had had with my friend that wasn't about us. It felt very strange but good for her to take an interest in my life.
Anyhoodles - back to my laundry and then my ironing (Hi doodler!). There's some crap around the house that I'm going to toss as well as part of my regular purge of things which surprisingly my hoarder W now seems to be supporting. I have a good book and a few cold beer waiting for me as well for later and a pork-chop thawing for my dinner. Since W won't be around until tomorrow afternoon and I don't need to worry about saying anything I shouldn't I might actually have a few of those beer. This may not sound very exciting as a GAL but for me it is freedom and a happy feeling of accomplishment when I see my freshly made bed, neatly folded clothes, and a row of crisp, freshly ironed shirts from the vantage point of a cold beer, comfy chair and good book.
I hope you all as well will find some joy in the simple things around you today.
Struggling a bit here. I have my 2nd appt with my new IC this morning and hopefully that will help.
I had left the board for a while because I was finding that it was taking up too much of my time and energy and I was focusing on defending my points of view rather than focusing on me and getting stronger. When I did that, I started leaning "heavily" on a friend who had offered support. Unfortunately she's given up on me. I've been able to build out my support network a bit more though to now include my brothers and their wives plus a very good friend who has known me for nearly 30 years but was wrapped up in his own personal issues during the heat of this. My S22 and especially D24 are more supportive too although I've not told them about the A and they are adamant that they will not "take sides". D24 I think suspects because there were some questions she asked about who W has been associating with that I thought was a "bad influence" and I refused to identify some of them.
My struggle right now is with the conflicting advice that I've been getting and my own combination of impatience and for the lack of a better term, courage.
To summarize where I'm at, I "believe" that my WW has turned back into a WAW as of around June 4th when her A ended (I think). Since she doesn't talk to me about personal issues (never really has in 28 years) I don't know for sure though. Every day she seems to get more attached to me and our family but is still quite distant. On June 23rd I gave her a letter where I asked her to make up her mind "in a reasonable time" but that I very much wanted to reconcile. She said at the time and one week later that she's thinking about it. Since then there has been no talk from her about leaving. Her moods are all over the map. She's been leaning on her own friends and spent last weekend with her B - taking the letter with her. On Monday she was "very" depressed. I'm pretty sure she is still recovering from the end of her A and the destruction of her fairy tale dreams. Because of our schedules and the fact that we're avoiding each other we don't actually interact too much.
On the one hand I have advice from my two SIL to stay strong, be patient and give W space and a "lot" of time. On the other hand I have advice from the friend who gave up on me, plus the other one that I had dinner with last night to give up on W, give her an ultimatum immediately if not sooner and move on. Last night's advice also included a lot of commentary that I "could do so much better than W" and that I needed to move on and recover from what this has done to my mental and physical health. He also pushed quite hard for an immediate separation of finances to add pressure to W and to protect me from her.
Both sets of advice are right as far as I my heart and head feel.
Originally I'd planned on giving W until today to make up her mind. I'm pretty sure that she hasn't for a variety of reasons from cake-eating to focusing on work to not wanting to deal with it (a historical problem for W).
Ignoring my lack of courage and not being the "king of the forest" (love the song from the Wizard of OZ), I'm pretty sure that if I pushed things right now that she would "say" that she would walk and the short term stress would go through the roof for probably the next 4 months and at the end of it I only give it a 60% chance that she actually "would" walk without me putting a boot to her butt. This is based on her lack of movement to date when she presumably was more motivated in the past. I also don't really want her back because she's being forced to, only if she wants to.
On the other hand waiting for her to make up her mind is tough but it's amazing what people can get used to and I'm getting rather used to the status quo even if I'm not happy about it. The probable lack of OM helps a "lot" although there is always the stress of not knowing and suspecting. There is also the uncertainty of how she would decide.
I alternate between fretting about it and more and more not caring. I have the plans in place for a D and separation of finances. I have fantasies (some steamier than others) of a reconciliation. I've been noticing that my pursuit behaviour has been getting worse and I need to cut back on that but struggle with it. I feel that I need to tell her as a WAW that I still love her, appreciate her and want to spend time with her but on the other hand I need to be independent.
So - today I'm working from home and have my IC appt this morning where I'm going to explore this a bit. This evening I'm going out for an early dinner and to watch "The Secret Life of Pets". I've invited W but made it clear that whether she comes or not that I'm still going. Tomorrow - well as Scarlett O'Hara said - it's another day.
Opinions, support, 2X4s etc appreciated.
Unfortunately she's given up on me.
AndrewP,
Why did your friend give up on you?
I'm going to take a wild guess. Your friend got tired of giving you advice and instead of taking action, you'd just argue your point of view.
Your wife is never going to make a decision about going or staying because there is no downside to staying. She gets your support (financial and otherwise) and she gets the OM as well. And, you like to iron clothes. Hell, I'd stay married to you too.
On the other hand I have advice from the friend who gave up on me, plus the other one that I had dinner with last night to give up on W, give her an ultimatum immediately if not sooner and move on. Last night's advice also included a lot of commentary that I "could do so much better than W" and that I needed to move on and recover from what this has done to my mental and physical health. He also pushed quite hard for an immediate separation of finances to add pressure to W and to protect me from her.
This advice is bullshit.
It's advice designed to make you feel good. I imagine its EXACTLY the same advice your W got a few months back.
It's advice from people that care about you that want you to stop hurting. That want you to feel better.
It's garbage.
AndrewP,
Why did your friend give up on you?
I'm going to take a wild guess. Your friend got tired of giving you advice and instead of taking action, you'd just argue your point of view.
Your wife is never going to make a decision about going or staying because there is no downside to staying. She gets your support (financial and otherwise) and she gets the OM as well. And, you like to iron clothes. Hell, I'd stay married to you too.
doodler - well - I'm not available right now but I might be soon and I understand you make great peanut butter cookies ...
You're pretty much bang on about the friend. It was more about that she felt that I was being treated with disrespect and my good nature being abused and that I didn't have it out with W. My friend just could not understand that W would not (and never has) sat down and had a rational conversation with me about our MR and that I didn't force her to. She got tired of hearing the same drama over and over and nothing getting fixed. I also crossed some personal boundaries of her's when I asked for opinions on things related to W's troubled relationship with sex. I feel bad but I'm not pursuing and will give her time and space to reconnect to me if she wants to - almost sounds like DBing - perhaps Friend Bustering?
As far as I can tell OM isn't in the picture any more and hasn't been for over a month - and believe me - I've been paying attention but will admit that I may be wrong. With that said, there still is lots of cake being eaten while W avoids making any sort of hard choices in her life. W has never been good at hard choices.
Meanwhile there's not really any "otherwise" going on, finances are tight like they always are and she has a pretty uncomfortable life here sleeping on a futon in the spare room with her stuff scattered around the house while I GAL and tidy and clean and make the house into something that I am happier living in (yes - I clean as well as iron - and I'm "cute" too
) Other than the fact that W said she's considering my request to reconcile I also really have no clue why she's still here. In fact back in March I asked her point blank why the f@ck are you still here - and she had no answer then and probably still doesn't. All of her enabling friends are probably asking themselves and perhaps her the same question.
This advice is bullshit.
It's advice designed to make you feel good. I imagine its EXACTLY the same advice your W got a few months back.
It's advice from people that care about you that want you to stop hurting. That want you to feel better.
It's garbage.
Thanks darknes - I know that it came from a caring place and ignoring the "you could do so much better" , I do need to give serious thought to just giving up after all this time and moving on. I probably won't but I need to consider the point of the ancient philosopher JarJar Binks who once famously said "Me give up". In part to make sure that I have seriously considered the options and out of respect for these friends I am thinking hard about this path.
I'm positive that W painted OM in glowing terms to her friends and me with a brush dipped in tar while they cheered her on from their own safe marriages. It's sad because I've known some of those friends for 25+ years but part of W's controlling nature meant that it was mainly her interacting with them while I usually got left behind or stuck in the background.
I had a good session with my IC this morning talking about this. She very carefully did not give me any advice on stay vs walk but was pleased that I felt good about being prepared for the walk option. She then gave me a bunch of homework to do on preparing myself for the stay option recognizing that I'm the sort of person who needs to have a plan. I do recognize all the while that most plans are out the window once the action starts. The lack of a plan is probably part of what is keeping me scared.
I had a good session with my IC this morning talking about this. She very carefully did not give me any advice on stay vs walk but was pleased that I felt good about being prepared for the walk option. She then gave me a bunch of homework to do on preparing myself for the stay option recognizing that I'm the sort of person who needs to have a plan. I do recognize all the while that most plans are out the window once the action starts. The lack of a plan is probably part of what is keeping me scared.
AndrewP,
Yes, I make excellent peanut butter cookies. One of these days you'll get a FedEx package...
It sounds like you have a good IC. My IC is wonderful. She started out as my MC and became my IC after my wife refused marriage counseling. She rarely gives me advice; usually she makes a statement or reinforces something I say and that provokes more thought (usually after the session). It's very effective.
Without my IC, I think I'd still be flailing around trying to figure out what was happening to me. Now I have a lot more confidence and inner strength. I can't thank her enough.
Big step tonight - my two SIL talked me into not being home for the first time being available for W / looking after the home while W is out wherever. I'm heading out tonight to the old family farm that my one brother has coming home Sunday afternoon - after all the ironing won't do itself and W isn't good at it.
I need to swing by the house to pick up my CPAP machine and a pair of PJs. My SIL believes that W will try to talk me out of it - personally I doubt it. There's a nickel riding on the outcome of that.
Wish me luck with this big GAL step. W has blocked access to my family - even though they are close - for nearly 20 years mostly through passive-agressive means.
AndrewP,
Good luck with the weekend GAL!
I am disappointed that you've started gambling. A nickle may not seem like much, but that's the start of the downward spiral. Next comes drugs and alcohol, then orgies and fighting. After that you'll want to take a trip to Walmart. That's when you know you've hit rock-bottom. I had high hopes for you Andrew, but...
Hey doodler! Walmart doesn't sell beer here so I think I'll be able to avoid going there. At my time of life an orgy would probably do me in and since I'm of Scots heritage - "not" fighting and drinking would probably be too much of a shock to my system ....
Actually I'm going to pick up a case of beer on the way - then stop at home for my blood pressure meds (the drugs part?). Planning on a quiet time with a good book, my 1 month old nephew, my (much) younger brother and his wife and trying to let the stress ebb away.
Feels weird going for a "sleep-over" at 52. This is the first overnight non-business trip I've done without W in 28 years.
Actually I'm going to pick up a case of beer on the way - then stop at home for my blood pressure meds (the drugs part?).
Is this what your doctor recommended?
Beer and blood pressure medicine?
Cadet - I appreciate your concern. My doctor has never been too happy about that either. I'm not planning a bender and one thing that I am extremely careful of is to always take my meds as prescribed.
Pre BD I was drinking a bit over 24 beer / week for the last 20 years - mostly on the weekends which I'm sure is a lot of my own part in creating a WAW. In my rural area this isn't considered unusual. Oddly a lot of W's friends, especially those she made on her wayward journey are a "lot" worse and I believe her starting to drink excessively herself with them contributed to her waywardness.
Post BD it's usually 2 or 3 / week - occasionally a couple more. I've been on blood pressure meds for about 10 years now. A big part of my GAL plan was to haul my fat drunk @ss out of my chair and DO things. My @ss is much slimmer because of this and because doodler still hasn't FedEx'd me those cookies he keeps talking about. I'm also down one of the pills and probably will be dropping off one more soon as my BP is consistently in the "good range" these days if not a bit low.
W herself has realized that excess drinking caused her to do a number of things that she now regrets and is consciously working on avoiding that with some reasonable success.
One of my longer term goals is to be off ALL the pills except vitamins and perhaps a daily aspirin.
Man, doodler - how come you never offered to overnight me cookies?
AndrewP - Congrats on starting to get off of some of your meds. That's great progress, and hopefully you feel better physically as a result. Keep up the activity and have a great weekend!
Well - that was different.
Friday night I passed through the house to put together a bag for the weekend and W wasn't there (no big surprise). Oddly she had taken her annoying little dog with her too along with food for him - an extended stay of her own perhaps? But the yard light was on which is usually only when she expects to be back that evening. I sent her a text to confirm that she had the dog (she's forgotten him outside before) and got an immediate response that she had the dog and an apology for not leaving a note. I gave a one word reply - not making any effort to find out where she was or with who which is actually pretty usual for me especially since BD.
I spent Friday night with my youngest brother and his wife and their baby. MUCH talking and visiting was done. Excess beer was drunk (sorry Cadet) but no drunk texting or messaging.
Late Saturday morning I got up and saw an unnecessary text from earlier from W asking about groceries. I responded briefly apologizing for the delay (claimed I was walking). I spent Saturday walking (did 13 1/2 km and visited my grandparent's graves), thinking, reading and basically just relaxing. Very little beer was drunk. Even though I was homesick and missing W I stayed there and didn't reach out to her and also stayed off social media except for one selfie that my SIL suggested which many friends liked but W did not. It also turned out that my other SIL who wasn't there had reached out to W to invite her to a future family event.
Sunday morning I was "really" wanting to go home but instead headed in the opposite direction and visited with my oldest brother and his wife for the morning. Again much talking was done although that brother is so angry about what is going on that he made an excuse to leave so that he wouldn't have to hear it. He's hugely supportive and has expressed to his W how much he appreciates her taking the lead in active support.
I got home about 2:30 in the afternoon and after a brief "hello" to W who was actually home got into my household chores that needed to be done.
W seemed very nervous when I got home. I was cheerful and worked on looking happy to see her but gave few details of my visit. She in turn said little of what she had done for the weekend. She was working on purging even more of the junk that has accumulated around the house which has been a long-term goal of her's that she will occasionally work at since BD. It looked like she'd spent much of the weekend on it.
An important (I think) thing that she made a point of telling me was that she had gone into our books and reconciled her personal bank account. She had blocked my access to that shortly after BD and had never updated our book-keeping software with any transactions. I pretended to not care - she seemed disappointed. To my surprise when I checked there was "nothing" odd in it. I had figured she'd been paying L bills, costs of going to see OM and who knows what out of it in preparation for leaving. Because I still can't see the account I don't know if she did it honestly, but I think I can assume that. This means to me that as I thought, she's taken practically NO steps towards the exit despite her prior constant talk of it. She also nervously asked about a couple of deposits from a couple of weeks ago to our joint savings account which I easily explained as something we had talked about but that I hadn't gotten into our software yet. I also showed her the credit card bill which had arrived in my email on the weekend. Historically we would make sure both of us see all bills as part of keeping our finances in order.
W also apologized for not changing the sheets in the MBR. This is something she never did even before BD - and why would she want to change a bed she doesn't use - I checked - it didn't get used in my absence.
W made us a fairly nice dinner (it's often been me lately and often alone) and was about to do the dishes (becoming a domestic diva again?) but I pointed out that I needed to make my lunch and would take care of the dishes so she buggered off to another part of the house.
W made a point over dinner of mentioning her web chat with SIL2 and that she'd seen the selfie. She seemed very positive about the message from SIL2. Both SIL are positive that in my absence that W would have been stalking me and snooping around the house - perhaps finding the D papers that I have pre-done along with the MC information I have in the same file. I haven't shown any of this to W because I am waiting for her to be ready for R talk and while it's not obviously laying out it would be easy enough to find.
Through the afternoon and evening W unusually had no regular texts coming in and wasn't sending any. However when we went to bed her phone went nuts while I was sending my own note to my co-conspirator SILs. It made me giggle how we were acting like teenagers.
So - my brothers and their wives are in full support of me except that my youngest brother is horrified by the thought of me dating his MIL which became a bit of a running joke. My SIL will be reaching out to W cautiously to bring her into the family fold on my side. Even though W quite likes the younger SIL she's never historically been close to members of my family for lots of ancient history reasons and perhaps it was part of her control over me to keep away from them. W has conflicting emotions about our baby nephew. She loves babies and "really" wants to spend time with him. From comments she's made she thinks that she would be excluded which especially now is not the case.
While this 180 was hard to do I think it turned out well. I have massive support from my family which I hadn't reached out for earlier because I was protecting W and her "secret" A. They will forgive her if she comes back and are working on reaching out to her while keeping knowledge of the A secret. W I think also got a good taste of fear of what I might do and a taste of what it would be like with me gone. I then showed that I am still being open, honest and showing her trust even if the reality might be slightly off of that.
One big frustration for me is that this has been a VERY slow grind - or so it seems. I have keep reminding myself by looking at the calendar how short the timelines actually are. I also have no clue how the path will change from this slow growing together which feels like room-mates more than being a couple together. Does there need to be some sort of "jump-condition" to go from two people who can live together in the same house to the loving couple we used to be and I believe we could be again? I keep wanting to find that magic switch that turned off abruptly on BD for her. Does it even exist as something that could flip the other way?
I still don't even know if she "wants" to stay. The lack of active leaving even during the height of the A confuses the heck out of me. I expect that her friends and family who've been enabling her for much of the last year are as confused as I am. My hope is that her visit with her brother the prior weekend (after which she was quite depressed) plus my going away will get her to think harder about what it is that she really wants.
In the mean-time as my SIL have requested and I agreed to, I will continue to be patient and not press her. The almost daily improvements in our relationship help a lot but man-o-man do I ever just want this to be over.
There is a lot there Andrew but one question... Why apologize and give a fake excuse for the delayed response on the txt message?? I would have just responded to whatever she was asking hours later.
pinn - I know that it's not "good" DBing but one thing that W always liked about me and that I like about myself is that I am reliable. Responding did run counter to the plan of going dark for the weekend but I did at least not initiate any contact.
P.S. - sorry about the novel - once I start writing it's hard to stop especially since this is one of my few outlets and I've always had a tendency to journal.
The fake excuse was because I was embarrassed to be hung over. (I wish we had an edit button here).
I think I need to practice even more extreme patience. It's frustrating to me but W is overwhelmed with work issues and (I presume) stress about us plus who knows what else. Maybe even guilt from her A - I can hope on that one. Not necessarily to be mean but because it might mean that she would be willing to make amends.
She has always had a tough time making decisions and following through on them. Deciding on whether to reconcile or not is probably the biggest decision of her life - even bigger than deciding to marry me all of those years ago. I think putting pressure on her is probably the absolute wrong thing to do right now even though the uncertainty eats at me. Everyone who knows us both is positive that we will reconcile in time.
Is dealing with a WW very different than a WAW? I'm presuming that since (I believe) that the A is over and she's now had a bit of time to recover from that that I should be treating her as a WAW? I've been reliable, considerate and letting her know that I care for her in as non-pursuing way as possible. I've also been making it obvious that I'm living my own life and taking control of what needs to be done. Today for example instead of what I would have done a year ago and asking what "she" was making for dinner tonight and if I could assist (she always insisted on traditional roles) I asked her if she would be joining "me" and that I was trying to decide what to make for myself.
I feel pretty confident in my GAL these days thanks in no small part to the support from friends, family and here. I just wish that I could take her in my arms and make it all go away. She is hurting so bad right now.
On this forum, when it happens, I've mostly seen here the dramatic sudden reconciliation. Is this seemingly long slow slog also a valid path? It's realistically only been about 6 weeks since the end of the A and only 3 weeks since I asked her to consider reconciliation.
Hi Andrew... A few quick thoughts.... You hupothize too much. Stop believing, guessing, mind reading etc. you seem hung up on WW vs WAW. Your case is WW... They don't switch back and forth.
I would stop focusing on what you think is going on or trying to understand things and focus on making yourself a better man.
I am working on a long, slow path... Been over a year and making progress.
pinn - You are absolutely right. I do spend too much time guessing etc. One of the perils of being a "fix-it" guy like many of us here seem to be. I do respectfully disagree with your comment that a WW is one forever though.
I "am" a better man already and will continue to focus on staying one. It still tears me apart to see someone I love hurting so much which is part of the man that I am. I want to help but know that I also need to stay as detached as I can.
Like your tag line, I also feel that I've been making some progress. Since my W never moved out we interact almost daily and each day she is reconnecting with parts of her old life sometimes even with me. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a long journey with an uncertain destination.
My comment that a WW is forever?? Never said that. It is interesting the way you read things sometimes. I said they don't switch back and forth between one and the other. It does not really matter. Just focus on growing and really think (objectively) about what happened in your relationship.
Well - yet again I owe everyone a huge apology. W dropped another bomb on me last night after dinner. She's moving out today and the A is still going. I convinced myself that the A was over and that she was growing closer to me but it must have just gone underground - and I was doing stupid mind-reading again. She already has a (very) cheap apartment signed until the end of September. Her brother and the son of one of her friends are coming over to help her move.
We did also have a huge talk which is unusual for us. The confident, cocky WW of 3 weeks ago is gone replaced by (it seems) a scared remorseful WW who expressed words of regret for the hurt and anger she has caused. A number of her "friends" that she had been counting on to support her in moving out have bailed on her and she says she's cutting others out of her life. She actually listened when I described the pain that I've endured being strong and waiting for her.
She was very surprised that I was completely prepared for this including having divorce paperwork filled out already. She didn't realize that I could file for D for cause because of the A - she had thought that everything would stay quiet with a year-long S first. She was horrified by the thought that the A would become a matter of public record.
This morning as I was leaving I decided to make one last try and literally got down on my knees and begged her to stay. Not good DBing but I felt it was a good gesture to make rather than just sneaking off. To nobody's surprise it didn't work but she seemed moved.
Even though I'm very broken right now, I actually feel some relief. I'm no longer twisting in the wind. Having a plan and knowing about the D processes helped me a "lot". I could speak confidently about the different options and not give in to her wishy-washy ideas. Part of what helps me feel good is something that sandi2 posted the other day about the fact that she's pretty much never seen an in-house separation lead to a reconciliation. Now I have a physically separated W and I can drop the rope, be a lighthouse and all those other DBing things that really mean GAL.
I have great support from my family and friends, I'll now have the freedom of the house and not dread coming home every day. I've "un-followed" WW on Facebook so I won't see her drama although her new (very cheap) place has no internet. I need to stand firm on that.
This morning on the way to work I stopped and sent W a long text saying that now that we're physically separated that we need to agree on boundaries and ground rules about when she can come to the house to get stuff, how our joint finances will be handled etc. As long as she doesn't do anything stupid and I have alarms on everything, I'm going to play it straight.
Wish me luck and accept my apologies again for being so very very wrong.
AndrewP,
I'm sorry that she dropped another bomb on you. But, it sounds like you're doing well, and that's a good thing. Hang in there, chin up, and good luck!
No need to apologize! We are all doing the best we can, and we are all going to make mistakes sometimes, either in our actions or our interpretations.
I'm glad you were prepared for this. Very best of luck! (That makes it sound like you're leaving the board, but I hope you stick around.)
Rose888 - I'm definitely here. This was just the half-time show. Now we switch ends.
It's thanks to the kind people and the vets here that have given me insight into the process and journey that I am on.
I still want my W back and a new MR with her and finally after all these months there has been some real movement. I'm not sure which direction it's moving in, but movement is happening.
I did a bad thing and checked the security camera at home - which doesn't point into the living areas. Definite moving type sounds going on and they haven't taken the camera yet
. It hurt to hear it even though it means we're moving on to the next phase.
This is the hardest thing I've ever done and hope to ever do.
Sorry to hear Andrew. My life improved dramatically once WW moved out if it makes you feel any better. I was able to focus on myself completely since we went no contact for months. It was probably the best thing that could have happened given the situation. I would recommend pulling waaay back now and follow the db'ing techniques. Maybe even post thoughts on communication with your wife her before you go it. It really helps to get other points of view. Hang in there.
Im sorry for the recent developments. While Im not particularly surprised, I still can understand the hurt you must be feeling.
She was very surprised that I was completely prepared for this including having divorce paperwork filled out already. She didn't realize that I could file for D for cause because of the A - she had thought that everything would stay quiet with a year-long S first. She was horrified by the thought that the A would become a matter of public record.
I still dont really understand this.
Does this mean that you are filing for divorce now?
Sorry Andrew, sounds like you are doing pretty good considering...hang in there and keep coming here to post...I know this board has really helped me!!
I still dont really understand this.
Does this mean that you are filing for divorce now?
darknes - no. What it means is that I was able to set the agenda for the talk and direct it where I wanted it to go. In our legal system here a standard "no fault" divorce requires a couple to be separated for a year first. However as a cuckolded spouse I have the option to go directly to divorce. This however creates a public record and W is reasonably concerned that it would hurt her personal and professional reputations. That will only happen if W starts the legal process herself and the first steps about division of property go through without her reconciling.
To answer your question, having the paperwork there had two good impacts. First it made me feel confident that I was in control of the situation. Secondly it was a significant wake-up to WW that this was now very real and that I was very willing and in fact insisting that she needed to decide either reconcile or divorce - no dragged out separation while my own reputation continues to be tarnished in the community.
Now comes yet another very hard part. Dropping the rope and letting her go. I need to do a few things consistently:
- stop following her posts on Facebook
- stop shopping at her store
- stop initiating any contact except for necessary household / finance issues
- ramp up the GAL by spending more time with my extended family and by taking charge of the clutter around the house. This weekend's task is emptying any food items from the prior millennia from the freezers and cupboards.
On the advice of my L we will still have joint finances and she has free access to the marital home (can't legally stop her). I've left her connected to me via social media etc so she can lurk on me if she wants - and she's shown that she consistently does and I hope she sees that I'm doing just fine without her.
Here is the text I sent to W this morning. It seems like good boundary setting to me except perhaps the last sentence. I feel though that she needs to know that I still love her despite setting these boundaries. I need to make future communications less "lovey".
Today is her payday and she had been talking about depositing her pay into the joint account while I would prefer that she just split away. Her comments were that she needed to continue to pay "her" part of the mortgage to have a claim on the house (which is incorrect and if my L is any good if we get that far - irrelevant)
It's not romantic so I don't have a handwritten note. We will soon need to set some ground rules for the physical separation.
If you choose to deposit your pay into your personal account today that is fine. That might make your life less complex. Don't worry right now about "paying your share". I'll figure things out for now if you do that. I'll keep your access to [cloud book-keeping service] open too until you transition to complete independence.
We also will need to agree on how / when you can access the house. I don't want to call to report a burglary when it was you. I won't throw stuff you leave behind out but may tidy it up. I will not block your access to family resources but expect you to be prudent and transparent as I will be too.
If there are any conditions you want please let me know. Please know that you can always trust me and that I will be true to you. I just want you to be happy and hope you will be.
All my love.
First it made me feel confident that I was in control of the situation.
So youre in control? I dont really think so. Yes, you certainly have the power to file for divorce. But how does having filled out forms that you arent going to submit show any semblance of being in control? It sounds like you were hoping the guilt of seeing these filled in and the potential for actually being divorced might have some impact on her. But by filling them out and not submitting them, it shows that you dont believe the affair is something to divorce her over. Im absolutely not saying that it is - but I dont see how showing her these papers gives you any amount of control.
I will say that reviewing them and understanding them and perhaps going through the exercise of filling them out likely gave yopu a good knowledge base to have this discussion. But to me, this is like playing poker where you are open handed - you showed all of your cards and now she knows you are bluffing.
Secondly it was a significant wake-up to WW that this was now very real and that I was very willing and in fact insisting that she needed to decide either reconcile or divorce - no dragged out separation while my own reputation continues to be tarnished in the community.
Shes going to live by herself (well, probably not, but at least the apartment is in her name -Who knows if shell ever stay there.) while actively having an affair. So shes clearly not choosing to reconcile. So now are you prepared to file for divorce? If I understand it, no, you arent. So then I dont think those are the only two options. Like I said, you already showed her that youre bluffing.
Now comes yet another very hard part. Dropping the rope and letting her go. I need to do a few things consistently:
- stop following her posts on Facebook
- stop shopping at her store
- stop initiating any contact except for necessary household / finance issues
- ramp up the GAL by spending more time with my extended family and by taking charge of the clutter around the house. This weekend's task is emptying any food items from the prior millennia from the freezers and cupboards.
Yes, I agree it is time to GAL. Id continue to recommend that you look for healthy outlets outside of your family. Nothing is better for you than making NEW friends that know nothing of your situation. You wont be tempted to dwell on it and it is incredible for your confidence. You saw you spent a GAL-weekend with your family and discussed your situation at length. You need some "W-free GAL".
On the advice of my L we will still have joint finances and she has free access to the marital home (can't legally stop her). I've left her connected to me via social media etc so she can lurk on me if she wants - and she's shown that she consistently does and I hope she sees that I'm doing just fine without her.
Finally, you have got to quit with the mind reading. Who cares if she lurks on your FB? Who cares why shes doing it if she does? Theres just NO WAY TO KNOW the reasons she does any of these things. So it's a waste of time to dwell on them.
Im sorry any of my posts come across as being hard on you. I know these times are extremely tough and we are all doing the best we can. I want you to succeed. I want for you to meet all of your goals. I really do want what is best for you. I write because I see so much of who I was in you and I know how hard this all is. It's a matter of completely reprogramming your brain to live without the one person you trusted more than anyone.
With that said:
It's not romantic so I don't have a handwritten note. We will soon need to set some ground rules for the physical separation.
If you choose to deposit your pay into your personal account today that is fine. That might make your life less complex. Don't worry right now about "paying your share". I'll figure things out for now if you do that. I'll keep your access to [cloud book-keeping service] open too until you transition to complete independence.
We also will need to agree on how / when you can access the house. I don't want to call to report a burglary when it was you. I won't throw stuff you leave behind out but may tidy it up. I will not block your access to family resources but expect you to be prudent and transparent as I will be too.
If there are any conditions you want please let me know. Please know that you can always trust me and that I will be true to you. I just want you to be happy and hope you will be.
All my love.
There is not a single boundary in this message. To paraphrase:
"I dont need any of your money right now; I'll figure things out. Im leaving the house open to you, just let me know if you come by. If you make a mess, Ill clean it up. **Lovey stuff**"
Where is the boundary?
And seriously, what is all of this love crap? Every time you say things like this, it brings the thought "
I dont love AndrewP" to the forefront of her mind. Why do you want her thinking that? She KNOWS you love her. I think youve made that clear. Its time to back wayyyyyy off.
Youve been saying and sending the same kinds of things for months now. Why do you continue to do the same things in the hope that you will get a different result?
I have to agree with darkness. I don't see a single boundary in that note.
And I love decluttering as much as the next person, but it makes a pretty pathetic GAL by itself (or even paired with family time).
I write because I see so much of who I was in you and I know how hard this all is. It's a matter of completely reprogramming your brain to live without the one person you trusted more than anyone.
darknes - Thank you. Those two sentences mean a lot.
Much to your shock I'm not going to debate (much) this time. It led you and I (or at least me) down a bad path that ended up me quitting the forum for a while so that I could focus on me and not on debates.
In most of your comments especially about motivations you are completely right. I "am" too wrapped up in W and from last night's talk it turns out she was in me and that's what led us down the path to where we are. It is a cycle that I need to break and hope I am 2X4 whack at a time. Being at heart a loner and more than a bit of a hermit I actually find joy and solace in individual activities and can lose myself in the joy of scrubbing a bathroom or ironing a crisp white shirt.
For the boundaries I personally believe that it is a 2-way street. On BD I set out the boundaries of what I where I would not accept WW going and where I would not go. In some ways that was unfair for me to do both sides but WW was so dazed that she had no clue and I wanted to make sure that she knew that I would respect her as long as she respected me.
For the separation boundaries the first part wasn't about the boundaries - it was about the practicalities of our finances. The only real boundary that I care about is access to the house and I want to know what "she" thinks is fair rather than me being controlling and dictating to her. If she doesn't get back to me by the middle of next week then I will set out a 24 hour notice period along with a list of what she is intending / actually removes. Naturally I'm a controlling, dominant person when it comes to planning. I'm trying to 180 that.
I will say that reviewing them and understanding them and perhaps going through the exercise of filling them out likely gave yopu a good knowledge base to have this discussion.
On this one part you are very much bang-on and I think it's helpful to the others here as well. Knowledge is power. By understanding my options and plotting out my path I felt better when the sh@t hit the fan last night and I felt better in the weeks leading up to that time because I knew where I would make a stand and what I had to stand on.
Was I bluffing? No I wasn't. Now that she's out of the house I'm willing to spend that precious resource that MWD talks about - time. Time for me to find myself better without WW around. Time for WW to decide on her own path. If it takes weeks, months or God forbid, years does it really matter to me? I'm really starting to think that no it doesn't. If WW on the other hand pushes for finality - I have it ready.
but it makes a pretty pathetic GAL by itself (or even paired with family time).
We are all individuals Rose888 and can find happiness in our own ways. I'll chose to not be offended by the word pathetic.
Heartbreaking, AndrewP.
But I agree w/ the others, your tone towards your WW is very loving -- I understand that's how you feel but I think it just has the opposite effect on your WW.
Thank you for not taking offense at my wording. I should not post on Internet forums while drinking.
In thinking about this some more, I realize that I interpret GAL as having a component of pushing myself. Some, but not all, of my GAL activities involve doing things that put me out of my comfort zone.
This might be my own idiosyncratic interpretation of GAL.
Andrew I have just spent the morning reading your sitch and I can see so much of me in you ok currently my w is not in an A she is done with relationships and just wants to be single and not depend on anyone else
My thoughts are with you ...I have no advice for you but I do know that we will get through this sometimes it takes longer to move the small steps but move we will move
In my sitch I have pretty much become just a friend to my w I do not want to be just a friend but I fear I have too much to loose by moving out or moving her out my family unit is about keeping he family together but I am starting to see that this may not be the best option
Stay strong
Ghost
Thank you for not taking offense at my wording. I should not post on Internet forums while drinking.
In thinking about this some more, I realize that I interpret GAL as having a component of pushing myself. Some, but not all, of my GAL activities involve doing things that put me out of my comfort zone.
This might be my own idiosyncratic interpretation of GAL.
I did both but found the things outside my comfort zone more rewarding. To each their own though. I would recommend doing something outside of the house though (and that doesn't mean partying or anything else beyond doing something outside of the house). There must be something that you have wanted to do or focus on besides house chores right???
I agree with the other posters about the importance of GAL and I have done several things that were outside the house. I've been attending both live theatre and cinema, spending time with family and my new nephew (who I don't talk to about his aunt), regularly calling and talking to S22 and D24 who are still largely in the dark about my sitch, being out in nature, doing more photography etc. Because I already tend to write long sad novels here I perhaps don't highlight what else I do. One of the biggest decisions I have made right at the beginning of this journey was to try to find joy in every day even in the smallest things. Earlier I tried to stop the flow of bile from W that I would get every day about her day and ask her about any joy she had found but it was difficult. Even though I tried to talk about my own joy she would lose focus until the conversation turned back to her.
Just a quick update. Yesterday was moving day for W. Practically no pre-packing or planning was done. Fortunately for her, she had two helpers one of whom was her very avaricious brother. Well - the large 4 bedroom house was largely stripped when I got home. Anything of material value such as the antiques, collectibles, china etc is now gone. A fair bit of furniture beyond the antiques is also gone. I perhaps shouldn't have cleaned the refrigerator so well because the gleam from it's empty shelves was blinding.
It looked like they just went room by room clearing it out going through each shelf and even under the bed. They even took things that were boxed up to be put in the trash.
I do still have almost all the MBR furniture, the kitchen table that I told W that I hated, my rocking chair and a spare bed / futon that W had been sleeping on. The office furniture is also largely untouched although my home office security camera kept sending me shots of W frantically going through the filing cabinet and making copies of documents.
Moments after I walked into the house I got a text from W that included the phrase "Hopefully you are ok with the condition of the house" - sheesh. The text included her agreeing that we needed to talk about how we would arrange for her to access the house and saying that she still needed to pick up the "rest of her belongings". I checked later and there was some bacon and waffles in the freezer - perhaps that? I asked about if she was taking the spare futon/bed and if not that I would use it as a couch in the living room. She said that no - that she was using a sleeping bag (?) and didn't need it. I expect that there will be a hit to the family finances for a new bed for her shortly or perhaps with the rush to get the "valuables" out they didn't think of something for her to sleep on.
Sigh - tough time last night and this morning. Reaching for things that aren't there any more (about 60% of the kitchen stuff is gone) and then not having W or her dog around in the morning was just odd.
I'll get through this though. I did send W a text this morning letting her know that she missed taking the bacon at least
and that the toaster (which had been obviously unplugged, moved and put back) could be taken. Since she might also go through the MBR again, I also told her that I've had to remove my anniversary ring until I can get it resized down and that I've NOT taken off my wedding ring.
I've grabbed the security footage most of which just has some bad audio and will review it later. I'll also go through and document the empty rooms. I have "before" shots I took a year or so ago when I did a house inventory for insurance purposes. I expect that the stripping of the house will not be viewed too well if this ever gets to court.
The heirloom stuff I figure my BIL now has "to keep it safe". The volume of other furniture, kitchen stuff and food taken would indicate that W isn't immediately planning on moving in with OM because he'd already have that stuff. I need to focus on going dark to her and light to the rest of the world and move on with my life. doodler, you'll be happy to know that my first thought when I saw the living room was that if I wanted to I could dance around naked in it and not trip over anything
Sadly that sort of activity is powered by peanut butter cookies and I have none.
Sadly that sort of activity is powered by peanut butter cookies and I have none.
I made a huge batch (about 1000) of peanut butter cookies. I sent them to AndrewP in Canada. Do you think maybe your WW intercepted them?
Hi Andrew, I'm sorry for what has happened. But hey, there's nothing like a few smelly socks and 24/7 company to take the shine off an A. Who knows how things may ultimately unfold my friend?
For now, it is LRT for you I would say. Have a look at those few pages in DR (I think) and follow them to the letter. Now then, that means not reaching out to her by text okay? You're texting things about your anniversary and wedding rings to keep a bond between you or tug at her heart strings or whatever. But truly you need to go cold turkey right away on that stuff. If you don't, she knows you're sitting at home waiting and hoping things might turn and that's the last thing you want.
So, I would suggest you reconfigure the house and claim it as yours to suit your new lifestyle and start planning some GAL activities. GAL does come in many forms, but I always think the kind that gets you out and interacting with others, trying new things is truly the best sort. That needn't mean bars, clubs or meals out - it could mean walks, volunteering or lectures if those better suit?
Keep moving forward and leave her be my friend. Before you contact her AT ALL - do post here and seek advice beforehand okay?? We all want the best for you here..
Take care and my best wishes to you
Yea Andrew LRT time... It is hard but actually easier than contacting in this situation... Trust me. Good on the GAL and you are right those activities have not come across in your postings. One last thing..no more mind reading or guessing (the last paragraph)... None of that stuff matters and you might be wrong. Take care my friend... I've been here
Sorry to hear about the destruction to your living arrangements. I liked to think of it as a fresh canvas onto which I could build my own house. How can you start to "claim" this place as yours?
My two pieces of advice to you continue to be:
1)
I asked about if she was taking the spare futon/bed and if not that
I would use it as a couch in the living room.
I did send W a text this morning letting her know that she missed taking the bacon at least
I also told her that I've had to remove my anniversary ring until I can get it resized down and that I've NOT taken off my wedding ring
You have got to quit with this stuff. None of this is necessary communication. There is no benefit to it. Im telling you, each time you hit SEND, you are marching your way farther away from your goals. Let's presume she wakes up in another man's arms....why do you think reading your text about you not taking off your ring is going be a positive for you? It comes across as desperate and clingy. Why do you need to TELL her you arent doing that - is it for you or for her? You have got to figure out how to Just. Let. Her. Be.
and 2)
She said that no - that she was using a sleeping bag (?) and didn't need it. I expect that there will be a hit to the family finances for a new bed for her shortly
the toaster (which had been obviously unplugged, moved and put back) could be taken. Since she might also go through the MBR again.
The volume of other furniture, kitchen stuff and food taken would indicate that W isn't immediately planning on moving in with OM because he'd already have that stuff.
Quit mind reading. Who knows why she took the stuff. Who knows if she'll be back or what else she might need.
Focus on you and how you want your house to look. Once you divorce, you can take stock of all of the "stuff" and split the value. For now, make sure you have you need and go from there.
As for the GAL stuff, I continue to urge you to get out and do things with other NEW people. I know it's incredibly hard. But as pinn said, it's so incredibly rewarding. It doesnt have to be parties or wild gatherings. Im SURE there are meetups to go take nature photographs or go bird watching or whatever other thing tickles your fancy. But its SO important to meet some friends that know nothing about your W and your situation. It helps so much in building your confidence. I know you dont believe me or think its not important or frankly just dont care. I dont really know what it is that makes you so hesitant to do it, but I continue to urge as strongly as I can for you to get out there and try.
I know you dont believe me or think its not important or frankly just dont care. I dont really know what it is that makes you so hesitant to do it, but I continue to urge as strongly as I can for you to get out there and try.
darknes - Quit mind-reading
I
do believe you. I agree that in large part that the communication was un-necessary. I've got long rambling justifications that boil down to you are right. I was just starting Day 2. Day 3 will be better. I
know that I need to focus on that, not to get W to stop being chased away but so that I can find myself. I've been very lost and confused with the constant awareness of W being around me all the time as she munched on cake at home.
I appreciate the GAL advice as well from you and everyone else. My
excuse is that I essentially have a 15 hour work day and have had for more than 13 years. That means get up, go to work, go home, have 1/2 hour of un-allocated time and then get to bed to do it all over again. I try to be social at work within limits and the weekends are generally filled with getting things done that people in the regular world get done through the week and in the past spending time with my children and W. For my baby steps I'm making time for my family - it's not all about W and our problems either with them. They are newly aware and since they love me they want to listen and help and as I'm sure you know - I love to talk as well as write.
With luck though a new big step might happen soon. I have a second interview next week with a company more than an hour closer to home for more money and better benefits. They are also active in the community so I may be able to get back involved in the volunteer work I love. I'd been wanting to make a change for about 3 years to get a better quality of life and more challenges but at my age and pay grade there's not a lot of options close to the rural area that W talked me into living in on our first anniversary (long story). I was on the edge of getting a job offer on BD and abandoned the search to focus on W, our MR and begging, groveling and pursuing.
One last thing..no more mind reading or guessing (the last paragraph)... None of that stuff matters and you might be wrong.
And one thing that I hope others take from my thread is how very very very wrong I have been so many many times when I do that. I keep telling myself not to hope but then I build this story-line in my head and tell myself it's true and then act accordingly with disastrous results. I can't even know if things would have been different if I'd acted differently so I need to stop second guessing myself too.
Thank you everyone for the positive vibes.
PS - darknes - you'll be proud of me. When I got the notice of the 2nd interview this morning I almost texted W - but I texted one of my brothers instead. Not great still - I shouldn't be needing to look outside myself for validation.
Even though I'm a loner socially, I'm a very expressive person who wants to share joy, sorrow, triumphs and tribulations with others. That's one of the big reasons I come here.
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