Pasting into new thread as old hit 100.
Little update, having a great time on vacation with the kids. We have played in the pool every morning, went to the cinema last night and watched the Jungle Book, we were out on the water on my dads boat all afternoon today. Heading to a wildlife park tomorrow. Kids have been awesome, travelled really well on the flights. Enjoying just playing and relaxing.
Only W news to report is she 'liked' one of my Dads pictures of me and the kids playing together in the pool on Facebook. I have just filed it under the random pile and moving on... If she wants the single life over this, her loss, I will take this all day long. These are memories you just can't get any other way.
All the best everybody.
I'm happy to hear you're enjoying yourself. We need to be the best dad's in the world.
My WW moved to the second bedroom (God had a reason he got us a 3 bedroom house) and I asked my S4 where he wants to sleep, and he said he wanted to sleep with dad. Obviously my WW does not care about the response, but i do, and that's all that matters.
Little update.
Had a great week with the kids in Bahrain and made some wonderful memories. Kids never asked for mum at any point, were happy to see her when we got back and tell their stories of course. They did speak to her once in the phone, I just left the phone on the table and went out on the balcony, didn't talk to W at all.
Drive home went fine, kids mostly talked to her. I did bring up my next trip away with the kids, taking them away again in August for 2 weeks. I didn't ask W any questions about her week, she told me she put about 600km on the car, I just answered no problem. She also told me about a weeks holiday she wants to take to meet one of her old girlfriends, I know she has been planning to do this for several months. Again I just replied no problem, didn't ask where she was going.
Dropped the kids and her at her place and left. Received 2 texts this morning about the kids not having rain coats and if I could drop them at daycare, although 2nd text opened the door to go see her and take them to her. I dropped them at daycare. Have felt that she is testing the waters with these little reach outs for me to question or see her. Don't actually feel the need to or even the desire to these days.
Feel really good, just moving on. Will miss the kids this week but need to get some training done so ok with the extra time to do that. Long weekend coming up, working on my plans for that. Haven't made any as yet but have a few things in mind.
Keep strong everybody!
Had a great day today, went to Innsbruck, Austria and spent the day walking around the city. It was such a beautiful day too, the surrounded by the Alps. It was so cool, just walking where ever I felt like.
Now, I'm just sitting at home, a thunderstorm has started and is rolling over me. I have the door open, just listening to the rain, watching the incredible light show going on. If W was here, everything would be shut up, I'd be holding her (she hates lightning) as she would pull me away from the window. We would be changing sides of the bed tonight as she wants to be away from the window. Now I'm just enjoying one of natures light shows as I have always liked to do. It's times like this that you forget how you have stopped doing th ethings you like for someone else.
When we lived apart in the early parts of our relationship, (we did over a year of long distance right at the beginning), I would get phone calls wishing I was there with her when a thunderstorm happened, she would write letters if she couldn't call. Now she has only herself as she has the kids at the moment.
The sky is just lighting up like crazy tonight.
I found this bit of advice from Coach from years back. I have enjoyed reading his posts. I have seen parts of me in it and have seen how at times I have smothered my W. All part of my learning curve.
"Let me offer a theory I have, I hope no women read it. Here it is: Men are like dogs, woman are like cats. Dogs like to sleep, eat, play ball/hunt and be petted. If the dog screws it will take his lumps and then want to make up right away. Dog is always glad to see you, wags its tail, jumps on you, slobbers on you and will do whatever you want.
Women are like cats, just try to figure one out. Call it and it runs away, ignore the cat and it jumps on your lap. Now you start stroking the cat and the cat starts purring (you think you got it figured out now) then the cat turns, bites you and runs away. Why? Who knows?! Cats are just different animals.
You are working way to hard. Does your wife ever say you smother her? Mine has. It's because I am a Labrador Retriever and she is a cat. The point is you are trying to fix the cat by still acting like a dog. Just let the cat do its thing and you be there for it to jump in your lap."
Very true! Women are cats.
Sandi, for me there has been a pattern emerging. When there is a gap between contact, I get this collection of texts usually of information about the kids that really isn't necessary with no questions. I don't respond to these since there really is nothing to respond to.
I feel so much more comfortable with myself, enjoying the space to rebuild myself and add the new parts to becomeing a better me. I haven't concerned myself with what she is doing, and if I come across anyone she has contact with, I just be that happy person I am becoming and don't ask anything about her. It is so much more refreshing to feel this way. I had to hit rock bottom myself a few months ago, but feel so much better now.
I actually have a cat at home and he follows me everywhere at the moment and as soon as I sit down he is over in a shot since I'm hardly at home these days.
I have no expectations that W will return and am OK with that now, I will be fine either way!
I think that is how we rebuild. Start with ourselves, then the MR. The advantage of living in separated houses, is that you have the time and space to find yourself again, without the emotional congestion that often comes with living under the same roof.
One thing I have noticed with W and I'm struggling at times to know to be. There are times when W says things that can lead to me asking questions but I haven't asked anything about her life for the last 5 months. She gives me information and, like I said, gives these openings for questions. She doesn't ask questions to me (directly). I really am just focusing on rebuilding me alone and being the best Dad I can when I have my kids. I know she needed space, I have looked back at things last year when she would blow up at me and it was because we were always around eachother and we were not communicating our needs effectively.
Could these be examples of just checking were I am?
Could be! However, when she becomes inquisitive about your life, I think she'll start asking questions about your GAL activities.
To me, it sounds like she is wanting you to be curious/interested in what she is discussing..........whether it's about her or something else.
Depending on the length of time the couple has been apart and if there is a third party involved, as to whether the H can slowly contribute to the conversations. And of course, if she is wayward, her attitude and level of respect should be a gauging meter for him.
There have been questions from the kids but not from her directly to me.
The leading statements would be about her and some things she is doing or has done. Should I be asking sometimes?
There is a third party involved at least on an emotional level, I haven't been able to confirm if it's more than that. The kids have not seen him or been introduced to him. She said things to me in anger about him but everyone else (that I could find) got told there is no affair going on. He is a work colleague and part of her group of friends at work that are all single or no kids.
She hasn't been as angry as she used to be, in fact, I find she is almost reaching out for guidance or maybe to be lead at times. I have found what she has said to friends (again from what I have found out) and how she is with me at times to be poles apart.
There are no direct signs that she wants to work on us and she is still together with the group at work that includes this 'friend' and I don't want to try and read into much she does or says.
One of my changes in dealing with her is just being more assertive about decisions without being arguementative of difficult. I was one to ask her too much what she wanted as opposed to what I wanted.
The hardest part for me sometimes is the feeling I screwed up my chance at saving this M last year when this all started. When she first had these thoughts for someone else but says she chose me. I did so many things wrong since I was going through my own crisis at the time. I somthered her and fought with her when I didn't feel she was doing the things she said she would. Her actions were not meeting her words. Neither of us did the work on ourselves that we needed to do, it was always my problem and I was the one that needed fixing, not her. Rather than get stronger, I was crashing in my own crisis.
I think it's great you are addressing your own issues and problems, as that is something you can actually control. Everyone makes mistakes in life and has issues. You are admitting yours. Even if you didn't make mistakes or have issues in the past, it may have done nothing for your R. Nobody knows the real answer, so why worry about the past? I feel exactly the same, but know that in a M it is suppose to be a team effort, one person can not name it work, nor would I want to be with someone that doesn't do some of the work and only blames me.
I'm also aware that we lost our emotional connection, that we were not listening to each other. I know it was something that was very strong with us at the beginning, especially my ability to just listen to her. It had always been a strength of mine, I have had so many friends turn to me and it does hurt that I lost that ability with the one that should have mattered most. I know it's said that I didn't break her and I know I can't fix her right now, I accept this.
I was talking to a mutual friend the other night, he plays Ultimate Frisbee with a bunch a people, something my W used to play during university. It was something I had suggested W and I go join together but she wouldn't go. Friend told me he dragged her there last week. I just thought that's typical of my W, she needs dragged, she rarely will do things for herself. So many things I tried to encourage her to do, find activities, hobbies but she wouldn't do it then blames me for stopping her going out. She has always had these plans, wants to do this or that but will not plan it. I had to do everything which normally I can do, I am also working more on learning the principles of leading better. The difficulty last year for me is I was completely burnt out from building a house and her 'friends' were more carefree and fun.
The biggest part of my rebuild is exploring more, having been training more and having more energy is helping with that. I have been pushing outside my comfort zone, meeting new people, trying new activities and generally been happy with life. My connection with my kids is so much better, I was concerned that it would be difficult when picking them up that they would stick with W but not a bit of it. They are so happy to see me. One thing that W has mentioned on several occasions over the past months is how much better I am with the kids. She mentioned at the beginning of the year she didn't trust it could be with her, that's why I understand that everything I do is a lasting change for a better me no matter what happens.
Sometimes I have wondered if I should include W in the odd activity that I know she would enjoy and the general feeling from people is mixed. Some say yes as we have had some space now, some still say no and leave it awhile longer.
Have been lying in bed having a bit of Sunday night insomnia, thinking over my marriage. As I lie here, I'm really not sure I want my W back anymore. The reason I have no expectations is that I fully believe she will never look at herself as part of the problem. One of my biggest issues over the years was when she went out, all I ever asked was if she was going to be later than she said could she let me know or have some way of reaching her if something happened. Now my son is 7, for only 1 year of his life has she carried a cell phone, this past year. When she went out I never had a way of reaching her. She would use the words, I'm going out to escape.
She told me she would want the kids 100% if she could, I'm lying here thinking of that was the case and she wanted to go out, would she contact a babysitter if she was going to be late... It's suddenly a question I want to ask her, don't think I will hit if she said yes she would but wouldn't give me that courtesy, who am I with?
I really think now that this is the life she really wants, the part time mum position, a part time family. And if that's the case, that is not someone that I want to be with at all. I just feel now that she has always had this lurking under the surface. It's always been about her.... Words have always been cheap to her, actions rarely follow and I just don't see that changing.
When we got together, we did long distance from the beginning, she could do what she wanted and then call me at anytime of day or night and talk to me about everything, then go about her daily life again. I guess I feel nothing really changed when I gave up everything and moved to be with her. There have been patches of me feeling part of a team and couple but have always felt it was imbalanced. I guess I see now here I didn't create the right healthy boundaries for me, this team has been imbalanced from the beginning.
I've heard her say, how she doesn't know how she doesn't love me like I loved her... For me it's because she hasn't wanted to, hasn't had the will to and (maybe I'm wrong on this) now I question if she ever will. She will always find a way to blame me, always has. The amount of times she told me 'I have to get to know you again' especially after heated discussions, and I always went trying to prove myself again. I don't want that anymore....
I want to walk away!
So had S7 at the dentist this morning, didn't go well and he will need a full anesthetic for the work to be done. He gets panicky when the tools start. W didn't come with, not surprised though. I sent her an email saying it didn't go well and I'll be making a new appointment. Her response was to suggest therapy for him... I pretty sure he just needs the love of his family but not that I can say that to her I'm sure.
Had several questions from S7 today of who looked after the cat while we were away. I had just answered that friends looked after him. Well he started questioning again this afternoon and when I asked why it was so important for him to know, he said "Mummy asked me and she wanted to know".
Now do I leave it alone with the vague answers to the kids or do I pull her up on asking the kids and not me directly....
So I have female 'coach' for improving myself and she gave me this list for being successful with woman. I'll risk it with our wonderful women on this board by putting it up here and see what people think. I found I have not followed quite a few in my time but will keep learning.
1. Laugh in the face of rejection
2. If you want anything in life, you have to ask for it
3. You are a MAN and men go after what they want
4. Real, Masculine men don't have to be jerks to attract women
5. All women want excitement so give it to them
6. You do not need permission to approach and talk to women
7. If you ever feel nervous, breath, relax and listen
8. Rejection has nothing to do with you
9. Before you approach a women, drill down your intention to 1 simple WANT instead of a grand desire
10. You can walk away from a woman whenever you want
11. Don't put women on pedestals
12. Make direct eye contact, stand tall and smirk
13. Remember this is for YOU not for "her". It only becomes about her, when you decide
14. All women want to be understood so try to understand them by asking questions and LISTENING to their responses
I also asked her opinion about leading and this was her response:
Leadership is all about getting your control back and no longer asking for permission to do things. It's knowing what you want and then asking for it without apologizing and fluffing up your language as to not insult.
Example: I want to take you out for dinner on Friday vs. it would be great if we went out sometime.
Both are similar statements but send very different messages to people
especially women.
She has given me an exercise for this week to be aware of how I am with everyday life in how I use language. For example, when I go to the grocery store, do I get mixed up talking to the woman behind the meat section. No, I know what I want and I approach her and say what I want.
I understand more to when Sandi says about getting the respect back regardless of how it make the WW feel. Don't be confrontational about it, just strong, assertive and at times direct. You know what you want, why are we scared of one person and how they might react. I have seen so many occasions now were I rewarded poor attitude and behaviour. It's amazing how some are so little but can make a big impact.
I love finding this stuff out and putting it into practice now, doing what I want. Even telling my W what I want regarding the kids, I have noticed her reactions when I have just been clear about what I want. She is not used to it and it has taken her aback. It's not about being cold or vindictive, I'm just finally standing up and doing what I want. I love it!
I just booked my next holiday with the kids, 2 and a half weeks back home in Ireland. Most of it will be at our family bungalow where I don't have any phone coverage or Internet. It will be the longest period W will not get to see or speak to the kids. Not sure if she will realize that and it's not something I am trying to create, just the nature of where the bungalow is. Looking forward to seeing my cousins and have my kids meet their kids for the first time.
So S7 was asking more questions last night about girls I was talking to... When I asked why he wanted to know so much, he answered that he wanted to tell mummy!
He said he would forget in a couple of days anyway. When I asked him why he remembered to ask about the cat, he said it was only one day from when W asked him to find out...
What has surprised me is how important it seems to be to S7. He has never questioned me like this before. Especially when I wouldn't give home am answer of where the girl lived. The insistent repeating of questions, he was almost getting upset that I wouldn't give him the answer. I just diverted the topic in the end.
This has come after I was on my own for a week and when she had asked about something, I had told her I was out Saturday and Sunday and not sure when I would be back. She did something similar a couple of weeks ago when I said I was out and couldn't come by, then got 3 texts that evening that I didn't respond to.
Could these be examples of just checking were I am?
Very much so!
So newest development. Received an email (sorry half an email) from W tonight. She informed me that she has sought professional advice and she will be as transparent as possible to hopefully save additional expenses but that she would understand if I wanted a second opinion.
I have spoken to a lawyer 5 months ago when this started so I'm curious and relaxed, waiting for what she wants to say...
Got the full email later in the evening. Nothing in it I didn't already know, even though she felt she was informing me. Haven't replied as I will check a few things first.
I was asked what the reasons for her leaving were today. I said all I had been told is that she was done, done, done. Our past had caught up with us and that she was going to have an affair and possible relationship. I have heard from others that W has talked to that it was because we were having too many arguments, grew apart, loss of connection and distant, lack of trust towards her with this work colleague.
Too many arguments- I agree with. It does take 2 and I own my part and is part of my self improvement.
Grew apart- think that happens when there is involvment of a third person.
Loss of connection- again like above plus stress and exhaustion on both sides during a very busy and difficult period in our life.
Lack of trust- yes I did as her actions were not matching her words but also contributed by not working on myself, again part of my self improvement.
I know she has been trying with little success to gather info on me, especially through the kids. I have not asked her or anyone about her and what she is doing. I don't feel her new life is what she thought it would be but it is her decision. I have tried to be a light back but I think my light isn't as bright as it could be. I am really 'meh' at the moment as to if I want this back. Financially it would be better but that will get sorted in time, my kids are a big factor but it is refreshing to do what I want with them when I have them. It has been a huge weight lifted by living how I want to, I was one of the those that got to the point of just trying to do what she wanted and gave up me. I am enjoying rebuilding me and the better me that I will be.
Time will tell and I know this separation is relatively early (entering month 4, 6months from BD) if I continue to feel the same.
I just got a promotion at work, will take over the lead of our project in the next few weeks. My head is not running at full capacity yet but it was an offer I just couldn't turn down. A couple of big difference between W and me are that I will do what I say I will do and I will push myself to better myself. I was going to post to my FB friends about my work but will hold off a bit because of her email as she told me that with the amount of money I was asking for the mortgage contribution, it is unsustainable for her... There is a legal loophole here so I will have to bend slightly on this unfortunately but not by as much as she is probably going to try.
Just in case it came across as putting a lot on my W, I am aware of my other mistakes that I have made and I own every part of my 50% of this breakdown. I can have reasons for why but they don't matter, damage has been done and I have learnt much over these months by soul searching myself as deeply as I could. My counselor is proud of my changes and the work that I have done so far, and encouraging me to keep going. I have told him that I won't stop learning.
I do find the timing of this email strange, something just isn't sitting right especially given the questions I was getting from my son also this week..
Anyway, will take my time to respond.
My W has always been one to be subtle in her cries for help, often confusing too and will rarely come out direct to ask for it. It feels like one of those times....
Si
Keep doing the right things as ownerhsip is always at least 50/50 but I think in the case of a WAW/H those tables are slightly turned in a different direction
I would expect that she blames you 75%? 100%?
My physical separation won't begin until August but I get the same questions and inquiries from my D and her when we do talk civilly...or she makes comments in the negative about me running around etc....
I do think sometimes the WAW/H thinks the other spouse will just crumble to pieces (which I have done for a bit but rebounded) and lie around in a pool of tears so that is where the DBing helps and I think wakes up the WAW/H to the "oh boy"....look at him/her doing their own thing. Only time will tell...best
Yes Rich, I agree that I was supposed to have crumbled and be pining for her. I actually think she expected me to pack up and go home leaving her everything.
I do read others and know how hard it is, I read how the WAW/H are often posting on FB their new life and can imagine how that is. In my case it is me doing all the posting of pictures of what I do with the kids, where I have been exploring (I make sure there are no signs of where I am). She has hardly posted anything, just from one time when she did have the car and changed her profile picture. Other than that has posted nothing of her happy new life.
I do think that she would not expect me to go some of the places I have on my own (also been careful to not indicate that I am alone but also nothing to suggest I'm with someone else). It was something I wasn't doing before, one of my big 180's.
I do find the timing of this email strange, something just isn't sitting right especially given the questions I was getting from my son also this week..
I would not give it the attention she intended by sending you that email. To me, she is wanting some type of pleased reaction from you.........as though you are really impressed with her.
It appears she is using her little boy as her source of information about daddy's interactions with any females. That seemed evident in him feeling that he needed to tell his mom about daddy talking to another woman. I mean, he's only seven yrs old! He may be a very sensitive and smart child, but I can't help but believe he has been instructed to keep his eyes and ears open and tell her everything.
Ok Sandi, so I do have to respond but am taking my time about it. She doesn't know I have spoken to a lawyer, that is clear. She is looking for things to work out better for her, that is also clear. I have my hands tied a little by the legal points regarding the house but she also wants to 'work together'.
For the car, she is offering to buy my half but I have no doubt she is not considering he whole cost and how she will insure it. If I buy her out, it works better for me as I don't have to deal with registration costs, new insurance etc. It does help her in a way by giving her some money but she will have a hard time finding her own car due to only driving automatic. With the budget she will have, that will be difficult. She talked about a court battle but I'm sure that won't happen till a divorce is final when I would just sell it and split the money.
For the kids it's not really changed, she wants to move D3 again which can be ok but she isn't looking at the next months when I have the kids away for holiday during the daycare closure. The one she wants to move her too is closed the 3 weeks after we are back from holiday. I will not have any spare days and she hasn't indicated taking them anywhere or taking the time off. However again mentions working together.
There are some other items that I will have to bring up which work in my favour that I haven't taken care of yet.
I guess I'm just wondering how much information I share when I respond.
Another question Sandi. Can a WW become a WAW in a way that you would treat them differently . Currently it doesn't change my direction or my work on me, and I'm not saying my W has done the work on her that needs to be done.
You knew Coach and Greek, I have learnt a lot from going back through their posts. I know for Greek there was no one else involved, and she was still angry even after returning home. Reading what had an effect on her is also interesting reading.
Haha, W just doesn't seem to know what she is doing half the time. So, she went to send me an email last night, only half came through. I replied only that it didn't work properly. Later I get 'take 2'. I didn't respond.
I have just received it again tonight, 'try 2', saying sorry for the half email yesterday... blaming the storms for her internet problems. Was no storm last night....
Sometimes you just couldn't write this stuff..
Have a good night all and remember to believe in yourself!
Probably did the wrong thing today... There was a misunderstanding about the kids schedule after the holiday period and I had something on today but I took my kids. They wanted to come home rather than stay with her and I decided to take them. I think it says more that they wanted to come home than stay with her. I wasn't quite as cool and calm as I wanted to be, I just picked them up and left in a hurry, I just don't see anyone I want to be with anymore and I have no expectations that she will ever look at herself.
Feel free to use any 2x4's that you see fit.
I am happy to have my kids, S7 has a soccer tournament tomorrow that I'm pretty sure she has no intention going to. I was going to go anyway even though I wasn't expecting to have the kids.
Ugh!! Little frustrated about myself today. Let her get to me a little. I think part of my issues is in not really sure I want to save this anymore. I am a little conflicted and maybe I need someone to talk to me now...
I have an old friend that is single, and we always got on well. There was a long period when we were not in any contact but picked up our friendship a few years back. Nothing has between us and our contact was very irregular and mostly just checking how each other were. She was with a guy for awhile but last month broke up with him. The contact coming from her has been more often over the past few months, and I hear from her a couple of times a week. We haven't talked over the phone or anything, and I know both of us would be in a vulnerable position so have kept away from that. I'm not looking to begin anything though.
It's hard to see my W turning around, just having been with her for 12 years and seeing how certain parts of her that have never changed that I've struggled with over the years. So many times I heard her say "I want to love better" ( even told me that the day before she went to this other guys place the first time). So many times I got told "I have to get to know you again", so many times I heard the words "I tried" but so many times the actions rarely followed. I do wonder would it just be better to start afresh with someone else as my W and I have so much hurt under the bridge. It is what she feels, that our past caught up with us are words she used.
There does seem to be so much in the way, a decade of roller coaster emotions and struggles mixed with good times and family. I lived for the last 10 years in different languages, have had many jobs due to moves, cut backs and just getting what I could to bring some money in. So many times I have done the things needed to help our family, but it has taken its toll on me and my W's relationship. Finances were regularly tight due to the decisions we made, job losses, etc that just meant we didn't have the vacations, nights out etc that we should have had.
I'm not blaming myself, even though W is, we made decisions together and signed things together. I did get burnt out, mentally and physically over the past year building our house and wasn't who I wanted to be or needed to be. However, I also can't take the responsibility for my W looking outside when I needed support. She was suffering for her own burn out, it's funny, she complained about feeling like a single parent when I was working on our house and how she hated it. Yet here we are now, living it for real.
The other part I struggle with understanding, when she has the kids she does get involved with other families with children but sometimes I wonder is this just to help her cope on her own. Does mean she is getting lots of support in her 'new life' and I'm also feeling like I'm up against a lot. Guess this makes me feel like my family won't get back together and I need to move on. I know I'm supposed to do that anyway, as I know my M is dead as it stands. I have accepted that. I just feel she has way too much support. W isn't as interested in the kids when she doesn't have them though, as expected she doesn't want to come support our son at his soccer tomorrow. He wanted her to come.
Anyways, sorry for the mixed rambling. Maybe I should just write stuff on paper instead.
Si_07
I can relate to your frustration. Stay strong. I understand that living like this is difficult. Take time to think about what you really want. I am praying for you.
Thanks JimKao,
I think another part of my problems are when I see her I just feel disgust, I don't feel love, compassion or anything. Just feel disgust for her lies, her attitude, her attitude to the kids....
Don't think I'm doing a great job of being a lighthouse at times, maybe I have gone too far towards coldness. I just don't like communicating with someone so antagonistic, so frustrating, so entitled.... Difficulty is having to because of the kids which I do and keep it business like. I don't fill the airwaves with random info, just keep it to the point when I feel it's needed.
I guess I'm just tired of being seen as the 'jerk making her life difficult', I have no doubt she is painting me this way. The car being a prime example, that I haven't shared it with her, that I've 'kept it all to myself'. I don't feel guilty about it, isnt weighing on my conscience. She has not come and asked me to use it at anytime over the past 3 months, hasn't gone and got her own. Could I have shared it, probably, could I have made other arrangements to get to work, sure....
Sandi, you will probably slap me for this but I am looking to buy out her half. It makes my life easier, I don't need to shop around, I get the car we bought new so I know the history. She will still have to go get her own on a small budget and this will be difficult for her due to needing an automatic. I have not done anything on purpose to be vindictive or make her and my kids life difficult, she chose to leave.
She keeps saying how we can save trouble by working together.... How do you work together with someone that only thinks of themselves.... She hasn't got the house (which I think she wanted), she hasn't got the car ( which is clear she wants), she hasn't got the kids 100% ( which she said she wanted). She hasn't had me bending over backwards to help her in her new life....
I know DBing is counter intuitive and if it feels wrong it's probably right. Definately have that feeling at the moment.
What I want is to build a life with someone that wants to be part of it. Someone that can look at their own behaviour and acknowledge their flaws as I acknowledge mine. Someone that can admit when they are wrong rather than blame others. I guess someone that is not my W... I know I don't need my W, I don't even feel I want my W. Am I wrong to feel this way? We are supposed to be here because we love our spouse unconditionally, to understand there is something going on with them that only they can sort out. I know there are no guarentees, that our spouse may never change their thinking, that we do this for us and make ourselves better, that we have no control of the outcome.
The difficulty I'm having is really finding it myself to have compassion, to have empathy for someone that doesn't give a hoot. Someone that for so many years has blamed me for my failings as well as their own, someone that has never considered changing the dynamics of her being to affect the relationship. Someone that as a researcher by profession, doesn't research how to work on a relationship, someone that always expects someone to do that for her.
I nearly walked away from this relationship many years ago, have questioned it on several occasions in the beginning (in a period of heavy depression), have constantly tried to change who i was, to listen to the complaints and adjust. I recognize I could have read more, learnt more earlier in this relationship. We all could have, should have etc etc. We didn't and here we find ourselves. I lost my way, my direction through the years to the point I broke and became someone I didn't want to be, angry, impatient and resentful. It took this move be W to make me wake up, I get that, I own my share and am working to fix me.
I have seen her at her worst now, I was willing to stand and fight for something better. She saw me at my worst and ran. I don't blame her per say, like I have always admitted, I was my own stages of broken. She told me once she broke, gave up and quit. She also told me she was going to have an affair, going to sleep with someone else, going to have a relationship elsewhere... She tells others she doesn't want to be with any man, I have no doubt she has been having an EA yet no one seems to be able to tell her how damaging that is, how lethal that can be to a relationship. I don't even think she would acknowledge it anyway.
Anyways sorry again for the rambling, it's been one of those weekends.
I also think a lot of these thoughts are coming from frustration with myself for slipping up a bit yesterday. Avoided her guilt trip and her attempt to fight on the phone but did slip up after picking them up with a bit of a sarcastic comment. Sarcastic humor, something that was part of our early attraction, is part of my personality and normally stays in good humor but W does have a way of me just wanting to rip my hair out.
Also have frustration that I will have to sit with her at some point and work a bunch of stuff out financially. Need to get myself sorted out again for that.
Anyways, tomorrow is a new day!
So I wanted to tell a little story. Having read many threads and seen how many go to church, I'm not a church goer myself, my W's family are all Christian. My FIL is a retired minister. Anyways my story.
So my W and I met at a wedding, my FIL was the official. During the rehersal service he went for some prayer time. At the end of his prayer, he asked if there was someone here for his D. Apparently I then walked though the door, he took it as his sign that I was the one for his D, he made it a mission to get to know me. At the wedding, I was best man, and during the evening my W and I hit it off immediately. It is so hard to be in this position now when our connection was so instant in the beginning. Some say things happen for a reason, that there is a plan for us. We had so many people say we were right for each other, she used to say often about how we met that I was the best man and I was the best man.
It's hard knowing I hurt her so much and have been hurt so much. I know that I lost my way, I went to far into being what I thought my W wanted and gave up myself and too much of what I wanted for me. I was broken, I can admit that. I'm am on the right path forward, it will continue to take time and I know it may not save my M as she has her own work to do. As she said to me, she broke. We were both broken in different ways and came apart. I think what's frustrating is knowing so much but not the outcome. I can only continue working on me and see what happens.
Why is it so hard to find compassion and empathy for the one I said I loved for ever more?? Really struggling with that today.
Si,
I am finding it hard to have compassion and empathy also. I feel this is due to the pain that they are causing the M and the disconnect that exists between H & W. Try to look at things from her POV and maybe that will allow you to have some understanding of her feelings.
DB coach asked me questions and had me play the role of my STBX. I answered those questions on how she views me. I now understand how much I emotionally hurt her but not sure she will ever see my changes or if she even cares.
I know that I will always have a little hope left in me even after my D that STBX will wake up and understand that we both need to make the effort into reconnecting
Hi Jim, I have spent a lot of today writing down how I see things from her PoV. I have learnt and seen all the hurt I have caused her. I actually started to write a letter that I don't know if I will give her. I have seen me through her eyes and do feel horrible about it. One of my biggest issue was inconsistency over the past years, I had so many loving tendencies, she even mentioned this before leaving, but was losing my temper and over reacting to things. I can say I was burnt out or depressed or the like but I still was that way.
I think spending the day looking through her eyes has led to more frustration with myself, and also why I'm frustrated that I can't just let go of my own hurt and reach her on her emotional level. I know sending a letter would be against DBing right now, hence why I want to write it but not send it.
She still got to me this weekend, again frustrated with myself with the slip up. I also think some of my frustration is her dealing with the kids. S7 wanted her to come to his soccer yesterday but she declined. I didn't ask why.
Anyways, keep on keeping on.
The other thing that troubles me or I find confusing to an extent. My kids have not seen or met potential OM, well not since BD. They had met him before (over a year ago) but not a word since. I read and feel how hard so many situations where WW has kids with OM, I find its the one uncommon theme in my situation.
Anyway, I don't know..
Si,
I also have a Last Resort Letter that I will give my STBX. Timing is critical on when to give it if you decide to.
One thing you need to add to the letter is a statement saying that you do not expect a response from her whatsoever.
I am also troubled about my boys as to who they will meet when they are with STBX. I don't think my STBX will have kids but she may be with an OM who already has a daughter if she is still with the same OM.
It's more of a letter validating some of the things I know she was saying. Also have stated that I am not looking to change her mind, just hopin to help her heart heal. I will have it checked from my IC first also. I know I have hurt her and I know that as I broke down I created an 'unsafe' environment. She was never in any danger but I was inconsistent in who I was and was leaning on her too much that I suffocated her. Like I said, I was in my own crisis last year unfortunately.
These are things that I just don't understand and maybe never will as I see things in the logical way still. In her email, she said how we would both relish the opportunity to spend time with our kids yet will not work on the M. Like I said, I know this is me thinking logically. Yet S7 wanted her to go to his soccer tournament but she said no.... Like she makes out she wants to see her kids more but again her actions, when the opportunity is provided, seem to show little interest.
And yes I know I'm analyzing so I will hit myself with the 2x4.
Si
ITs normal to over analyze as you want her to be back to her old self. That person is out of the building for now!
My STBX does the same with "lets focus on our daughter" but then sits in front of her computer doing stuff instead of spending time with her.
After I read some of Sandi2 posts I really got the WAW and how its the selfish acts that are commonplace within their mindset at this point. And that they believe they are only doing right and no wrong.....there is no fixing that.
I have been trying to fix/alter how my STBX deals with my daughter but my therapist quikcly stopped that and told me it wasted energy and time. You can't fix it....only what you can control which is yourself.
I know Rich, I have read Sandi's posts often and I do understand all the theory. I see the reality, it will never cease to amaze me how someone that was so dedicated to her children can seemingly disconnect so clearly. When I look from the outside, the only loss she seems to feel is the car... She tried a guilt trip on me during the last phone call. I didn't refer to it at all, but I did suggest I will look into buying her half. She mentions selling the house but before she left offered me the apartment and she would stay in the house.. I see why one of the rules is to not believe what they say...
One of the things she said hurt her was my perception that she wanted to be a part time mum, something she seems (I know my perception from the outside) to be comfortable with after all.
A friend was telling me that his W ran into mine in town a few weeks ago and said my W looked awful. I basically said, not really my problem as there is nothing I can do.
So have been aware, less than a month till our 10th anniversary, must make a plan with friends to be out that night. Kids are not with me then.
Thanks Rich.
I think my lack of compassion etc is due to her attitude towards the kids. I can get the disconnect from me, the resentment to me etc but how a mother can't see her disconnect from her kids is the part I find hard to understand. Not being able to tell anyone on her side what I see and experience even if it was just about the kids is hard. I think that breaks my heart more than anything else. I can own my responsibilities for damage caused to my relationship, they have nothing to do with it yet W will forego supporting them for the sake whatever she is doing.
I feel for all of us who are going through the same thing.. It is why I will be the best Dad I can be for them.
So looking back at my last interaction with W and now getting around to laughing at it. She questioned my conscience about keeping the car to myself these past 3 months, so technically she hasn't had access to it for 6 weeks if we had shared it. How can someone that has shared a bed of another man while married question my conscience over a car??? Then when I get there she is all chit chatty about some second hand clothes for the kids....
I need to keep this attitude about feeling light hearted at this, it really is a much better feeling within myself to see it this way.
When/if a WW tries to lay a guilt trip on the H, and especially uses words that are directed to his conscious, I think that's when he should give her an incredious look and say, "Really"! Then shake his head and laugh at the irony of her selfish blindness.
Thanks Sandi, will keep that in mind for future.
The things I wil take from this situation is I really understand my W (well at least the one from before) I have really learnt where I was broken, I own my share of this. I used to be so good at listening and validating without defense but as stresses (and we have had a lot of these) took its toll on me and I lost that strength to ride all the waves, to not take things personally and to just be there for the woman I loved. I'm still rebuilding, will add new parts as I go but I know my direction again, I know who I want to be. Felt much clearer today, no doubt I will still have my down days, but feel good.
I may not save my M as she has work to do on herself but I will be stronger in the end. I will get there and I know someone will get a really good one. As we met at a wedding that I was Best Man, my W always said I was the best man and the best man. I will make that guy even better.
I know everyone here is suffering but I do want to say thank you for sharing because I have learnt so much and will continue to do so.
I see now more than ever through my W's eyes, again I only have my share, but when I was broken I could only see through my own. I couldn't see through hers, I do now.
I will keep learning through this, it isn't what I wanted but I will learn. Thank you all and will keep praying for you all in my own way.
So just adding some more bits to the random weird box from my W.
I have a new nephew as of 2 days ago, baby and mum doing well. Will get to meet him in about 7 weeks. So, sister and BIL had posted the arrival on FB, they are both still friends with my W. W commented on my sisters post and liked my BIL post. I find that a little strange in its on right based on the fact they know what W told me she was planning to do.
The added strangeness, is her Aunt and Uncle celebrated their 25th anniversary last weekend and W never commented or liked any of the family pictures (her side). Her BIL also recently posted a picture of her youngest nephew and W didn't even like it. So she liked and commented on pictures from my family but not her own.... Anyways, file it in the random box and move on with my day.
Oh yes, sorry. S7 had tried to call W on Sunday to tell her we pulled another tooth out. She didn't answer, last night at about 10.30, I got a text saying "saw you called, everything ok?" I haven't responded yet as it was late and this morning I was getting the kids ready for school. Should I respond, the kids are going to her this afternoon after school anyway.
I feel now that my W hasn't truely loved me for a long time. To many times I heard how she wanted to love me better but never sought help or researched how. It was always me to change who I needed to be to accommodate her. Maybe she just isn't capable of it, who knows. The problem for me is I kept trying to change, so much so that I completely lost myself, my direction, my own self worth.
Maybe I'm wrong and someone can talk to me but I just don't feel any hope at all.
I'm ok with this ending, I'll be alright and I'll continue to make myself better but for years she has not looked at herself, why would that change now. She even messaged my Dad at Chrismas saying she couldn't understand why she couldn't love someone as much as I loved her. She asked me at the end of October, knowing what we had been through would I do it again, we both said yes. 6 weeks later she was done, done, done!
She chose her new friends over her family, this 'friend' over me.
I know all my mistakes, my head has never been so clear in terms of what I want to become and what I will learn from this. She told me she would be heart broken if we ever split up, all I see is a cold dead heart. She said at the beginning of this how no one was listening to her pain, her hurt. I was my own broken and couldn't help her then, couldn't hear her cries.
She said she broke but says she doesn't need to be fixed, there is nowhere to go with that mindset.
I know this has only been 6 months since BD, 3 months of separation and maybe I'm just feeling a little deflated. I feel good about myself and my direction, I still have work to do. I know I have no idea what is truely in her head and may never, I know I will not be the one to get through to her. I can only control myself and make myself stronger and better, will try to remain patient to see what time brings.
Anyways, sorry for a little venting.
Ok, I'm going to write down the list of things I've heard her say or heard what she has said to others about why we have split up...
- Too many arguments and that they went on to long.
- Grew apart.
- Didn't trust her with regards to work colleague.
- Was distant, loss of connection.
- Not listening to her hurt.
- Controlling.
- Manipulative.
- Stopped her going out.
- Felt suffocated, empty and numb.
- Apparently I wanted rough sex (really no idea were this one comes from as she has always had control of this part of our relationship due to her history.) But it is a feeling of hers so need to list it.
- Only wanted to go to counseling when she ended it. (we had started before) why not before when we have struggled in the past.
- Our past has caught up with us. (we have had a up and down roller coaster relationship)
- Not respecting boundaries.
- Can't play with the kids the way she wants with me around.
- Didn't feel good to be around me (yet had no problem with this when still in the house)
Seems like a long list, when I look at it. I know from this list, the areas I need to work on and will continue to do so.
Sometimes I feel she is a WAW (has the lost hope that anything could change feeling) but does have the WW traits also. She definately built an inappropriate relationship with her work colleague and has no interest in working on the MR. So I do listen to Sandi a lot. I know I'm going against you Sandi with regard to the car and buying her half from her. It works out better for me as I'm basically buying a 3 year old car for 5000. I'm pretty sure she wanted to buy it from me and leave the insurance as is. However, she will have to search for her own without my help.
So today went and bought some new boots to start hiking in the Alps, first chance will be in 2 weeks and have already picked a hike in Italy. Another new thing for me to start doing. Was supposed to be something together but will still head of myself and maybe meet some people along the way.
Planning on running my 2nd half marathon in August in Dublin. Aiming for under 2 hours this time.
So bits I've learnt over the weekend. I don't ask about W from friends but do get information.
Doesn't seem to be living the wild single life but does seem to be replacing friends we had with new ones.
May not have started counseling after all.
Seems to have completely changed to friends from who they used to know.
Apparently struggling to put on weight even though she wants to.
I'm still getting random information sent to me from W, little bits about her life that really are not necessary for someone building a new life away from me.
Still working on me and using the time to do what I want and have no expectations.
Have read something that Coach posted about how what they are doing isn't really any different to what we need to do. GAL, detach, etc. Don't have to agree with her methods but it is similar to what I am doing.
Seems like a long list, when I look at it. I know from this list, the areas I need to work on and will continue to do so.
So, you are believing her self-justifications she is giving other people?
This is not a "honey do" list. Throw that out of your mind. You are falling into that pit of wanting to do something to please your W. You need to stop be a pleaser! That is one of the main problems nice-guy types have. It become such a habit that they don't see it in themselves.
The only list you should work on is a list your personal goals.
Sorry Sandi, do I believe all of these things, no I don't. Do I agree with them all either, no. I can see where some of her 'feelings' can be felt due to some of my nice guy traits and as has been talked about in validating her feelings but I'm not and haven't rolled over everything she says. It was more a case of just writing down things so I could see some of the valid bits and, as you say, the self justification parts.
I know the areas I have fallen down and, like you said, been the nice guy, pleaser type. I also know where I have given up myself in order to try and be what she seemed to want but by doing so lost my own direction, wants etc. these are the things I'm working on. Putting my focus back on me and finding someone that likes that person rather than changing myself into someone I don't want to be. I know some of these things are her problems and not mine. Didn't mean for it to come across that I'm going to change all these things to please her. I have been making more decisions of what I want and worrying less about what she thinks about it.
She wanted to call and talk to me last night and normally I would have made the time to do so but told her I wasn't available as I was out which was the truth.
Ok, question for the vets. Can I get some examples of temp checking?
I heard my son was sick at the weekend and I did text W to check. Since then I have had 2 relatively long text messages and 2 long emails. In some ways like my 'old' W would have done. Very rambling information about the kids. What she does, what she has bought them, and with a little info about her life thrown in. There have been no real questions so I haven't responded other than to say I was out the evening she wanted to call.
It was like her rambling thoughts, things that she would have done with me always, looking for verbal appreciation of a pat on the back for he things she was doing. Today she was asking me if everything was ok and that she understood that the daycare closes early. Fees like I'm supposed to be needing or asking for her help. One email she said how she had got clothes for the kids and did I need/want some as she was happy to share... Like I can't get clothes for my kids when needed. I almost have that feeling that I am supposed to need her but since I haven't asked her for anything, is she questioning it?
I still living my life as without her and look after my kids without her help, I will continue to do so...
Not sure if I have written this before but will do it again. Several years ago, I nearly walked away from this relationship. A number of things were not right for me and I was having some issues. There wasn't anyone else directly involved and I wasn't thinking of leaving for anyone else. I never actually left but did hurt my W, I did get some counseling at the time and worked out a couple of my issues and why I was feeling the way I was. My W did no work on herself, I did all the adjustments. One thing is, I never told her at the time I had seeked some help or understanding, I only told her last year. She told me that it hurt her more and knowing I had spoken to someone would have helped her heal. I guess this is a reason I had thought of writing a letter now having learnt more about my mistakes. It would be different than before.
However, I'm still in my own process as to if I want to save this marriage. I still have the feeling that my W will not look at herself, the problems have always been mine. I have been blamed for my own failings and many times for her own.
I guess we will see.....
So one of the hinges I found out my W has told some of her friends and family is that she considers me controlling, manipulative and abusive. The hardest one to take is abusive because it's one of those stigmas that is almost impossible to get rid of. It's also hard because W has been the one to turn to physical violence towards me on a couple of occasions and threatened hurting herself towards me. She also fails to recognize that if she throws something, it is directed at me. I admit that in arguments I have gotten frustrated and taken some of that out on objects but never directed anything at her.
There are times also that I don't think my W remembers what she has said or done in the past months since BD. There was one night she spat some things at me and when she came to talk to to me a couple of night later, I said I wasn't interested in listening due to the way she spoke to me previously, she asked me what she said, said she couldn't remember...
Anyways, just a couple of mindless thoughts passing through..
Ok, need to vent a little....
So i know I have made my mistakes and got things wrong, I bacame the Nice Guy in different ways and lost who I wanted to be. I am going to get a few things off my chest so feel free to ignore...
My R with W started out long distance, I made the more trips to visit due to having more vacation days. Everytime as the days got close to being together again, lots of talk on the phone about how we were looking forward to hitting the bed as soon as I got there. However, everytime i did get there, I got 'no, not yet, I have to get to know you again' This happened even on the day I asked her parents about marrying her. During the years, this bacame a regualar statement, any disagreement I would be met with this line and I would then feel like I had to prove myself all over again....
When her grandmother was diagnosed with cancer again and was in the last months, we drove the 4 hours (one way) to there every weekend. I carried her grandmother from her bed to the living room chair so she could be with the family. The weekend my grandmother was dying, I didn't travel home. My W went out with friends and came in drunk at 3 in the morning. I got the phone call I was waiting for (but didnt' want) at 8am.... W went and threw up in the bathroom then went back to bed. She told me last year that I should have gone home to the people that could support me....
Our wedding day, I went to ask my new W for a dance. She was talking with friends and told me to 'go away'....
Honeymoon in Paris, I was also there for an immigration interview and didn't get the information I was hoping for (the process was going to be even longer) I wasn't in the mood for talking, W used her fists on my back for 20 mins....
Made another move across the Atlantic back to Europe as a family, W told many people that this is now time for me to pursue my dreams, how she is here for me.... We decide to build a house with me doing alot of the inside work. Had to learn new skills as many things I hadn't done before. Not even in the house 6 months before she told me she was attracted to this work colleague (ugly ******. Best way I can describe him is he looks like a bulldog chewing on a wasp that is then hit in the face with a shovel). I ask her if she would quit her job for me, answer was no... I ask her to cut him out, 'I tried' is the answer I got. Now she has chosen these friends over her family...
Intimate life has been on her terms, very little room for me to be suggestive. So many times, felt like I was asking permission to do anything. Big difference between W sober and W tipsy/drunk..
When we would go out, felt more like a chaperone than a partner.
I have organised surprise parties for her birthday, even did 2 surprise birthdays on the same day. Even in the midst of building a house, I managed to surprise her. Last year I bought her a piano (a dream of hers for 18 years), 6 weeks later I got a family dinner.... She told me she had thought of organising something for me but I wouldn't have liked it so didn't bother but also wouldn't tell me what she had thought of doing. 4 weeks after that she went to OM and told me the affair was going to start that night...
Everyday, I'm struggling to find the reasons to why I'm trying to save this. The more I look at my M, I see how much was about her and how it wasn't about us...
I'm sure you will 2x4 me Sandi, saying I brought this on myself by not standing up. It's not that I didn't, I brought things up and stated my concerns/feelings. I didn't create consequences though I guess, and maybe she just didn't care enough about me anyways...
I met someone once when I was travelling for work, we got to know each other and I was planning on renting a jetski one day and she said she wanted to come too. Then told me that she had a slight allergy to sea water but wanted to come with me anyway... I know it's not the same as a R though.
I'm actually struggling to think when the last time I felt truely worth something to my W, how sad is that?
Like I said I'm not perfect and I have things to work on, I will continue to do so for me and it is definately time for me to breathe and be who I want to be again...
I will add that I never did all those things and others to try and get something in return. I did them because I know how much they would mean to my W, the woman I loved. I know they were the ways that she felt loved. I do think that this process has shown me how she never understood me. She loved me the way she wanted to be loved but I see now how she didn't look to love me the ways I needed. Reading 5LL has helped me see this more and more. However, it did probably create resentment in me which affected other areas of our life.
Had another longish email from W last night at 22.30...
In most of her emails/texts she points out what she has done/bought/received for the kids. I thinks she is probably looking for validation of how she is looking after them etc. words of appreciation have been a constant need of hers. I guess my question is if I should be acknowledging these or still pulling away and only answering direct questions.
At times she seems to be connected to the kids, does take interest in S7 and his school work. Other times though, still seems to have disconnected from them, like the part time mum works for her...
Some friends think she is reaching with these emails, others think she is just trying to be friends. Now if I want to be a lighthouse (and I'm still trying to work that out myself to be honest) should I be responding to these when there are no real direct questions....
I did want to copy the emails but can't get my post to submit on the computer...
Have had a couple of downish days the last day or 2. More to do with my own thoughts of if I really think my W is worth fighting for.
On the positive side though, I have been thinking how I am enjoying decorating my house the way I want to without asking anyone else. I've never had my own place, left home to join the military and lived in barracks. Then met W and moved across the Atlantic and moved into her flat that she had already decorated the way she had it. Bought a house that we didn't get round to doing as much as we would have liked due to various job losses and such. Made another move across the Atlantic, into a tempory apartment that we couldn't do anything with. Then we built a house, our own design with things we both wanted. Broke me mentally, physically and emotionally during the process so wasn't there for my W as she needed and vice versa.
Now she has a small rented apartment again, I have our house that I can do whatever I want with for the time being. It has been enjoyable, picking pictures, light fixtures etc that I find pleasing. Completely new experience but very refreshing.
Hey Si_07, long time no chat.
If you want to get your W back, then you acknowledge her, show her interest. But let her know that you're there, just not there for her.
As for her being a drifting mom - from my experience - my STBXWW does not know what love is, so she does whatever she has learnt from tv and best practices. She'd take pics, say i love you to our S, but it's sort of "out-of-sight-out-of-mind" with her most times. Disregard her about her lack of affection.
As for the lighthouse, if you know what real love is, show your kids, she will see what real love is and might find it in her heart one day. But again, your focus is in the wrong place. It must be on you.
Off topic though - I think that you should comment on other peoples threads, you'd get better reception on your own. Also, you need to step out of your comfort zone and become more confident. Not to get your W back, so that you can live a better life and getting the things that you need!
Hey DDJ, hope you and your son are doing as well as you can.
I hear what you are saying but it's more about my own impatience and journaling that you are reading. Having learnt so much from here and books etc, and wanting to 'fix' it. I do know that's not my job now, my job is just working on me and looking after the kids. I was one of those that would do anything for my W, did all the things she didn't like to do, but then got to the point of being burnt out and not being there in other ways. It's also more of a frustration with my own mindset to sacrifice my own feelings to try and put his right, again something that I have been guilty of in the past. My IC has helped me a lot and I see the parts of me that were broken. Seeing the influences my own parents divorce had on my upbringing and some of those traits I have brought into my relationship.
A very controlling and argumentative mother and an absent father. Probably should have had help sooner, (something my W wanted me to do), but I didn't and here I am. It's a shame that it took this to really soul search myself. I know it's all talked about how woman want a strong man etc, and normally I am but sometimes life burns us out. Building a house in a foreign country, starting a new job again, fighting to get a better one but working the job and the house. I was just done, I have learnt that I was mentally, physically and emotionally broken. Add that on to W saying she almost had an affair, then not cutting contact with him at work. I guess it was just a matter of time till we tore ourselves apart.
The worst bit, W complains about how our arguments were affecting the kids, my S was doing better in school during that period than he is now... Go figure.
Hey Si, thx for the clarity.
I also realised that I came into the marriage broken. I knew what i stood for but I never stood for anything. Whats happened to us can either be perceived as something that can pull us down or an opportunity.
I've discovered my real purpose, to help people. I'm going to start my honours in psychology and aim to go all the way to doctorate. I believe that we all have a purpose to help people with our God given talents.
We must also be thankful for the things that we have in our lives and the things that we MOST IMPORTANTLY don't have. If you asked me 3 months ago, would i sacrifice my W to find myself, I would say YELL NO. Today, I will not blink an eye.
I had mixed emotions when I got the final divorce papers today, i was not sure if it was ELATION or JOY. Its really all about YOUR perspective - alter your reality or lower your expectations.
Sorry if it comes out preachy...
It's fine. I think the hard part for me is as much as I am ok with this M ending and having to move on as I know I don't need my W back. There is still part of me that would like her back but as we see, she would have to do the work on herself and find the understanding of her part of why this went wrong. I'm just not sure if she is capable of that.
I know I need to fix the broken parts of me, something I will continue to do for my own benefit. I can see now that last year I was actually not much different than she is now, broken emotionally to the point I had put some walls up and could only see my own hurt. Screaming inside to be heard, no different from her and it turned me into someone I don't/didn't recognize.
That's why sometimes I have felt like writing a letter to my W, which I have and my IC thinks I should send it to her. I'm on the fence about it though as W still chose friends over working on our M. She has still shown many ways of the WW with her lies, sneaking around and neglect of the kids. I do think this colleague became an emotional attachment for sure, someone she was not willing to give up. I don't know how much he is in the picture at the moment, as she hasn't done some of the things a WW does. At times she seems like a WAW more these days but has shown no remorse or intention to reconcile.
Honestly, I had one day before BD that I nearly upped and left for a few days. There was no other involvement of someone else for me but things were not right and it needed to get better. Dynamics needed to change on both sides.
I don't think that they are capable either. They're in this spot, along with us as you rightly point out, because our feelings were and are hidden behind a life that was created to cover emotions.
I was going through the motions and never saw this coming, why, cos i was selfish. Selfish to my own needs, and so was/is she still.
But here's the thing, what my STBXWW felt for me was romantic attraction, not real love. She lost that romantic attraction for me about 3 years ago and waited for the right guy to "become" romantically attracted to.
I will never see remorse, because for her, it "feels" like she's done the right thing. Its not cheating, it's butterflies and holding hands and...
But thats her problem. I will look for love in the right place and that is not inside her!
Had a good weekend. Been at a local festival a couple of nights, once with work colleagues, another with some friends. Got a desk for my son so he can work on his homework better, set it up in his room so will see what he thinks when he is back next week, look forward to going shopping with him for his chair. Went to my first meetup meeting, spent most of the day with one of the people I met watching the European Championship soccer.
Not much to report on the W front. Heard from MIL, they are getting shut out and not hearing much but feel W is very confused. Asked me to be friendly if I want to win her back.
Heard from another friend to that W can't understand why we can't be friends, even he laughed at that and is surprised at how much W isn't in reality at the moment.
Is interesting, I had never heard the quote 'Not my circus, not my monkeys' before but I come across it so much more often these days.
Si,
I was introduced to the term, 'Not my circus, not my monkeys' by a dear db friend who doesn't really post here now.
I find it really useful as I am someone who could never say, 'No'. Every time I feel like have to fix someone else's bad, or I start to feel overly apologetic, or I get worked up, overwhelmed, this becomes sort of a mantra.
As for your W, I don't know if you could be friendly/ civil without being a friend or a fixer?
Thanks Grl, I have realized as I look at myself that I have always been a 'fixer'. With friends and family and to an extent people that haven't even been friends. I guess I've learnt that I wasn't very good at setting boundaries to protect myself, I would help people out even whenever I could, would alter my plans to do so. Have now learnt more about how when I have gone looking for similar things in return, if I've needed the help with something, it has rarely been there. However, I would just deal with myself and not say anything, learning now how much that has built inside of me as I have pushed those thoughts and feelings down. It has then become ingrained in me over the years to become less trusting and in turn rarely ask for what I need.
I think W is putting across that I'm not friendly is more me not being available or getting what she wants. I think she wants more communication about kids etc since she tells me all the things she does for them, what she buys them etc. I think I'm supposed to be doing the initiating of the communicating more in her eyes and giving her the same level of information. She regularly throws in a little comment about something regarding herself like I'm supposed to follow up with questions. I haven't done so, I have just been civil and kept my contact to facts, logistics etc. I have been more assertive in what I want, not dropped whatever I had planned to fit her ideas. This has also been more of a way of focusing on me and sorting my own issues out first.
I do have the feeling at times of trying to fix this situation but that's why I have found this quote useful. I just want to take time for me to grow and learn about myself at this moment in time.
Just had 6 TM's from W tonight. Haven't read them all yet or responded as I'm watching the football. I'm now curious as to how many I'm going to get. Like why not write an email with all this info rather than all these different texts.... It's almost attention seeking by buzzing me every few minutes.
So it finished at 8 texts and 2 photos. Mostly about S7, cream she had bought for him (photos of the 2 creams). I know from reading many of Sandi's posts that we as LBS can use the kids as a good reason to hold on and initiate contact. This is something I haven't done, unless it for logistic reasons. I don't send messages of what I have bought them, what I give them to eat etc. these are the kind of messages I get from W. If I do respond, it's normally just "ok, cheers" or something along those lines.
Can the WW use the same method as a way of temp checking or holding if they are feeling us moving away?
Yes, si, these can come across as temp checking. Or your W may really just have wanted to share these moments with you.
I think the way you're reacting is fine. Civil but not overly friendly.
What is your W's love language? Could she be looking for sone words of affirmation? Was that a complaint of ners in the past?
Her love language would be words of affirmation, maybe not number one but probably number 2. I think this is what she is looking for, I have learnt about her more over these months. I guess the question becomes, when someone else was/is involved, how much do I engage her LL's. Especially when I haven't seen any remorse for the whole period of this colleagues involvement.
It was not a complaint of hers, the main complaint was probably lack of time together. Unfortunately as I was building a house for us, and working full time, I got a balance wrong mainly because time was tight for us to move in. That and being physically and mentally exhausted. We did do things as a family but not enough just the 2 of us, it's not that I didn't want to, even friends said to W to organize a weekend away and they would look after the kids. Told her I was exhausted and to take me away. Something she didn't do, I think I was the one that needed to organize it. I have learnt about myself and acts of service is up there for me so if she had of planned something, it would have meant a lot to me. I have, however, sacrificed things for financial reasons that would have done me good.
Hmmm, maybe you could throw in some very measured words of affirmation once in a while? Something like, 'Thanks. The kids look like they're having fun.'
My x's love language is WOA and sincere thanks for things he's done seems to work well with him.
Don't initiate or pursue but when she reaches out, acknowledge and affirm?
I hear you about having time off as a couple. I should have done that too.
Should have. Could have. Would have.
I guess we'll just have to file this away for future use.
Thanks Grl, I will keep that in mind. In the last few weeks she has sent several emails and texts about the kids with the odd comment thrown in about herself.
When she was in the house, I did overhear a conversation with a friend that she was complaining how I wasn't happy with the way she loved me... I know so much more now about myself that she would love me by her LL's but didn't know mine. It's not all her fault since I'm learning some of these things about myself. She would thank me for everything, even if it was folding laundry or putting stuff away, I'm more of a physical touch than WoA so I know now how a big hug or kiss would have filled me more than a thank you for something that just needed to get done. Something more spontaneous if you will.
Why does it take a crisis to really learn about yourself? I know what I'm learning now will put me in a good position going forward, I get, and I did get her before, my W but I have seen how she has not really understood or 'got' me. When I read this books and stuff, I see how my 'love tank' or 'account', whichever word works, had been empty for a long time. Top that of with not doing anything for myself, there was nothing left to give.
I know how important it is to look after myself right now, to focus on me and the kids. I feel there are signs she is missing them but still on her own path for now. I feel more like my old self and my confidence in myself growing again, I will continue to improve and learn.
Have been more confused by W over the past few weeks but still working on me and moving forward.
Like I have mentioned, she seems to be more engaged with the kids, especially with son and his school. From what I've heard, when she posts on FB it is only with the kids. Nothing about her own new life as she called it. The contact is mostly initiated by her and I the last few weeks have had long emails and texts. They are still all about her, what she does for the kids, has done for her etc. So I don't see anything different there.
S7 had an interesting comment last night, he wanted to ask me a question about the Britta filter jug we have but he started by saying that he wanted to ask the question not mummy. As I have thought about it, it makes me wonder if she is still trying to pump him for information but trying to cover her tracks since I called her out on it. I will have to chat with S7 because I don't want him to be anxious about talking to me or asking me anything.
Waking up this morning on our 10 th anniversary to an empty house is a little difficult. Saw W last night as I dropped a couple of things at her place. She is not confident, certainly from her body language. She wouldn't maintain eye contact, I feel stronger again and was able to just stand straight and look her in the eye. She kept looking down a lot. She talked about the family day at her work tomorrow and how excited she was to take the kids. I did reply that I'm sure they will enjoy it as it was something I had always hoped to get to see but not to be. I was able to say it calmly and didn't effect me. Something definately caught her and she chocked back some emotion.
I also quickly mentioned something about one of the hockey trades a couple of days ago and there was a little interaction with that. Something we used to do a lot of. Then I just said I had to go and headed off.
I have no expectations, in some ways that makes me feel more at ease. I needed this time to heal, to rebuild myself after 2 years of exhaustion mentally, physically and emotionally. It's a shame my W wouldn't read some books, (at least I'm pretty sure she won't) having read the 5LL, reading how W's go to counseling alone to try and help their marriage. My W has not done that in our time, as soon as we started MC, she bailed after 1 session and only wanted to take us apart. For years it's always been me with the problem for her, always been me that needed the counseling. Yes we should have got some before,
Sorry got venting a little. I think it's because I see someone lost but know I can't directly rescue. She texted me yesterday saying S7 didn't want to go to soccer and that she didn't want to force him but also asked for my thoughts.. This one I answered briefly.
I think she is still in the stage of wanting her single life with me as a good friend, not something I'm prepared to be. I have questioned her involvement with someone else but I doubt he is out of the picture in terms of inappropriate friendship.
Anyways, on to another day and weekend with my kids. Looking forward to that.
Si,
Sorry I haven't followed lately, please do not think about W. Focus on you and the kids and enjoy the weekend.
Yes I know Jim, thanks. Today has been more difficult being our anniversary but I know to just keep going forward. Have arranged to get out with a friend tonight for a beer or 2. So will hit the gym and get some frustration out and have some time out later. Certainly wasn't going to spend the night at home tonight.
My weekend will be busy with the kids, Sunday is my last hockey game of the season and we will be having a big bbq afterwards, happy to have the kids with me for that.
Hi Si,
Your weekend plans sound great. Have sone fun to take your mind off W.
Thanks Grl, I had a good weekend. Kids were at her family day at work on Saturday, they had a good time and I got a thanks... Found out later that day though that kids had been looked after by one of her make work colleagues a few months ago that I have never met and more importantly the kids had never met. She left them alone with him, I couldn't believe it. Not a happy man that night. Have made the point that it should be ever happen again.
Sunday, went and played hockey, some friends came and helped watch the kids while I played, won 7-0 so can't complain about that. Stayed there most of the day and enjoyed it.
Last night after supper we the 3 of us headed out and played some football, was a beautiful evening.
Have planned my weekend, Sat I'm heading to the Italien Alps for a hike and then Sunday, meeting some people for the soccer final. Should keep me busy.
Haven't been keeping in touch with every bodies threads, sorry. Taking a few days this week to clear my head as its been a bit to busy of late. Take care all.
So W sent an email tonight suggesting that if I felt she was being irresponsible in her care of the kids that I could take it up with her lawyer.
I answered that that was and interesting suggestion and thank you for the contact details.
She said she had not deviated from our agreement but unfortunatly I did have to point out that she did as I was not notified first and give the the opportunity to have my kids on a night she had something to do as per her written email. Tried to tell me I was dictating how she looked after the kids in her care. I did suggest they were not in her care as she was not present but asked if she could explain how she felt I was dictating.
I only raised the first concern as my kids told me they were nervous and frightened about being left with a man they did not know.
Oh what fun this is... Wonder what tomorrow will bring
Si, could you take this up with your own L? I wish I can smack your W for putting your Ds in such a scary sitch.
Can you draw up an agreement that you will be each other's first choice of babysitters and any other options should first be discussed?
We have that agreement now, this was something that happened before this but I only just found out about.
I have also found that is likely I can do nothing about it, if the children are with her she can decide who can look after them regardless of my thoughts. That can work vice versa but it's not something I would do to my kids. I will have to confirm with my L and all I asked her for was an explanation and now I'm getting emails suggesting I can bring up this with her L... Received a 2nd email at 1am that she wants answers about the house by next week if I'm selling or buying her out. That I changed the locks with discussing it with her, I did this legally as soon as she moved out.
The last 2 emails felt more like an attempt to gain control and manipulate me and the situation. I'm going to take some time to evaluate and don't really feel the need to respond as it was more threatening than civil.
I guess I can just make sure my kids are secure and protected when I have them at home.
Si, you're right about this. No need to rush. Do it at your own pace.
It's good that your older D is there to take care of your younger one. As a mother of a young D, I can never imagine putting my kid with someone she's not familiar with, especially a male at that, so that kind of made me see red.
I have a son and daughter, my son is the older and is protective of his sister but it made me see red too. The amazing thing to is that my W has a history of sexual abuse as a child and she still did this.
Oh sorry. Got your sitch mixed up. Good that you have an older son to look after your D.
Ugh. What was your W thinking? It must be that body snatcher thing again.
Your weekend plans sound nice. Mine are burnt as I am down with flu. Bummer.
That [censored] Grl, hope you feel better soon.
I really thought I was getting past the anger stage but questioning this with my kids seems to have poked the hornets nest. I never once suggested I was going to look at the legal side yet she has jumped straight to it. It seems more like she is trying to punish me for questioning it. Like who sits up till 1am to write me an email to punish me...
Looking forward to my day away in the mountains tomorrow, clear my head and do something different for me.
Thanks, Si!
Like who sits up till 1am to write me an email to punish me...
Your angry W.
I guess by the time the spouses start acting up, there's been a lot of resentment and anger.
Be the bigger person and don't rise to the bait. Hope your day in the mountains will bring you some peace!
Had a reelly good weekend, the day in the mountains was amazing. Shame I can't add some pictures. For the first time in awhile, really felt my head clear and not thinking about anything. Was so refreshing. Yesterday, got caught up with some cleaning around the house then went out and met a friend to watch the soccer final.
Today with my S7 at the dentist, W sent me a text at 11.30 last night for something she could have said this morning when I picked up son. It was really a nothing text so not going to try and work out what she is doing.
Been awhile since I updated.
Have been taking care of myself and had the kids the past 5 days. At the weekend we went to a local festival where they send thousands of candles down the river after dark. Was part of my meetup group activity but took the kids with me, they were up late but is was good fun and worth it.
Sunday, we went to a different town and walked around the lake, got some ice cream. Has finally felt like summer here lately.
Last night with them before they go back to W tomorrow for 5 days. Come to a pizza restaurant with a big play area for them.Saturday I will be meeting the meetup group again at another local festival. Need to get caught up on some training to.
W report... So after questioning her about leaving the kids with a stranger, she has gone on the defensive, now she is trying to use the house as her leverage. Is complaining I'm not being cooperative, so will seek legal advice if I continue to not collaborate... I have a meeting with my lawyer tomorrow to checks few things out. I have told her before that I will meet her anytime but at a public place without the children. She hasn't once tried to do this... But have realized more that this is who she has always been. She has also blocked me on FB, don't know why as she doesn't post anything these days anyway. Have more the thought it's to try and provoke some reaction, something I haven't done. I feel to that these texts with reference to her lawyer are also about control and reactions. Again, I have been good and not rises to any of it.
I have spent time looking back over my M, as I feel my head is clearer than ever before. I was also reading some articles about 'professional victims', turns out my W hits a number of those traits to and has done throughout our M. She will and for the most part always has blamed other's for her troubles, me being most of all. Now I'm out of the picture for the most part, she has actually turned that on the kids. Since they felt frightened being left alone with a stranger, she feels S7 (in particular) needs therapy for his fears. Like usual, it's not her fault for creating the scenario, it's someone else's fault for taking it the wrong way. There are many examples throughout our M of this same trait.
In reading about this, it's advised to leave the relationship as rarely do these people ever look at themselves. This is kinda where I am now, that there may be nothing worth saving with someone of this mindset. Part of me feels like this is her true colors, albeit in overdrive, but who she really is... It's said someone like this is someone that is heavily emotional abusive, things I have now seen have contributed to the break down I had last year.
I don't know if anyone has experience with this or has any thoughts. It doesn't change my thought process in continuing to work on myself and look after myself and our children. I won't let her break our son like she did me, he doesn't need therapy for fears common to children or to be made out like these are things wrong with him. This has been her mindset for years, always me that needed the counseling, not her.
I have met a couple of other woman but am not pursuing anything, I still need time to work out my own head before going down that road.
My IC and my own reading has shown how manipulative my W has been over the years, how many guilt trips I have had put on me but how I didn't have the knowledge to deal with it efficiently. These things I will take forward for whichever direction my path takes me.