WHs do come back--Piecing-- - DivorceBusting.com

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Link to thread 1 Here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...289#Post2670289

Hello everyone, Blu here! Just to recap on my sitch:

Like many of you I was the LBS for a long time. My H and I were married with kids, I adored him, we were in love for a long time, beautiful family, small town, lots of friends, and he was the nicest guy! I thought I had it all and he would never hurt me. My family, friends and community thought we had it all.

A string of very difficult life events lead to the corrosion of our marriage. Things were rapidly changing and falling apart and I just could not put my finger on why we couldn't cope. Something in my gut was telling me for months--maybe longer--that something just wasn't right. I got the ILYBINILWY. The distance was growing. I was battling with my own anxiety and depression with the life hardships, and so I had trouble seeing that my M was slipping away in front of me. I completely blamed myself! My H was the most wonderful man and I never thought he would hurt me. .... WRONG.

I found out he was having an EA with OW in our same small town for 6-12 mos. No idea when it started and I don't think he knows either because they were just "friends" in his mind. But in his gut he also knew it was wrong. So when I found out about this "friendship" and that he was lying to me and seeing her behind my back, I was heartbroken, devastated, and so angry. With all the crisis that was happening already, I had no reserves to deal with this. We fought, I went crazy, we split up. I read the forums here but struggled to DB. In the beginning I was angry, lashed out, and gave ultimatums. Then I became further anxious and depressed and cried, begged, and pleaded. Of course I only pushed him further away. I always struggled to focus on me.

So we were separated for about a year and their EA went to PA and they had a full blown R. It was the darkest and scariest time in my life. Here I was with these kids, in this town--always wondering who knew--hanging on by a thread, with the shame staring me in the face. I honestly don't know how I survived. I couldn't eat, lost over 30 pounds, couldn't sleep, had problems at work, my kiddos were visibly struggling, and I had this possible D looming and fear of losing my home. My life was completely turned upside down.

Then everything changed. It was also the hardest year of his life and he was running to OW because it was the only thing that "made" him feel good about himself. He always knew the A was wrong, he always felt guilty, but he justified it because of his anger towards me. An anger that had built up over time that I never even knew was there. He was the typical Nice Guy, perfect H and family man, and put my needs before his own. I had no idea he was silently suffering and building resentment towards me all those years. He completely rewrote history. That is how he justified his A--he deserved to be happy, I make him miserable, and the more I lashed out while he was gone, the more he justified it and pointed the finger at me. My wonderful, loving H was a complete alien to me.

Well that only lasts so long. You can't blame someone else for your unhappiness and quite frankly, while he was gone and having his A he was more unhappy than ever before! It was the times that he missed his normal life and I was cordial that he missed me. It was when he saw that I was starting to move on--not by words, but by actions--that he was terrified of losing me. He knew he hadn't tried in our M.

So, he has been back over a year and we have been piecing. When H came back he did a 180--he was remorseful, transparent, working on himself, and out of the fog. It happened rather quickly from my perspective--1-2 weeks. He was back and in my gut I just knew. He has remained this way and it has been consistent. ... Always trust your gut. My gut has never steered me wrong in the last few years, I just didn't want to listen to it.

So here I am. I am still learning about acceptance, forgiveness, and mostly--what I tell all of you--that the fundamental principle is what we all need to focus on, and that is self-love. DB is about YOU. Love yourself, work on detachment and breaking codependency, and know your value in any R. You are valuable and no one else can determine your worth! Whether you enter piecing or not, that is what will get you through life and lead to strength and happiness.

These boards got me through some very dark days. Waywards do come back. Always trust your gut and take care of yourself first. I am here for you guys.

Thank you,
Blu

Blu- Your support and feedback has been helpful. I hope my H realizes what you mentioned that you cannot blame someone else for your unhappiness and that love is an action not a feeling. Even tho he is distracted and does not see it now, hope he realizes that its worth having the opportunity to get through together instead.

Hi Blu

Here are the mantras I mentioned earlier from Realitytrip's thread. Her thread is a useful read actually...

I remain calm in the face of fear.
I remain calm in the face of pain.
I remain calm in the face of anger.
I remain calm in the face of surprises.
I remain calm in the face of anything.
I remain calm.

I breathe into the fear.
I breathe into the pain.
I breathe into the anger.
I breathe into the surprises.
I breathe into anything.
I breathe

I haven't seen many posts from 25 lately - though she does post sometimes and yes I'm sure they did Retrouvaille. Caliguy on the MLC part of the forum also attended with his W - though they have since S unfortunately. He did think it was helpful at the time. There was also a big debate about forgiveness on his thread - probably middle of last year - which also may help.

Xx

Previous Thread:

LBS back--piecing--but still regreat not DB

Just in case you don't know how to link your threads, here are some easy steps to do so in the future:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588047#Post2588047

Welcome to your new thread, Blu!!! I loved your summary post here.

I also think my H falls into the Mr. Nice Guy category. Much of what you said about your H resonates with my husband's actions, too, at least for the majority of the time I knew him. I totally know where you're coming from about the alien, too.

My H definitely blames me for his unhappiness. I don't know if he is just wayward, or if it's a MLC, or what, but I suppose it doesn't really matter all that much. He's doing his own thing and I'm here trying to figure out how to do mine. Unfortunately, he's so far away that he may well never see me starting to move on.

Thank you for the reminder that we LBSs need to learn how to love and care for ourselves first.

"He was the typical Nice Guy, perfect H and family man, and put my needs before his own. I had no idea...."

Yes, this resonated with me and my H was much the same. Though looking back now I can see danger signs that at the time I put down (or he told me) were due to work pressures etc. I think this happens to a lot of people and it is a lesson that voicing our own needs - even when that feels scary - is so important.

Hope you have a good day today Blu.

Hi Blu,

I'm just catching up with your threads and your situation, sharing your experience is really helpful.

I am at the beginning of my H's MLC journey, but I too have been madly in love with the "typical nice guy" and I am still trying to work out what happened and how to move on from it. I'm consistently making mistakes, taking things personally, not detaching, not enough GAL, but with hard work and patience I hope we can do it. Unfortunately I have not managed to lower my expectations yet so I often get bitterly disappointed.

I am grateful for this forum and the amazing support here, so I understand why you feel like helping others. However, make sure you look after yourself too, and that you let us support you as well.

Job, thanks for linking me up!

Jz, I am sorry you are in this spot, I really feel for you. I do believe one day H will see things differently, however for some that can take many months or even years. As a LBS, we have to accept that we cannot force them to open their eyes. I think sometimes the harder we try, the more they resist and deflect.

Sotto, I appreciate your post. I think allowing calmness and breathing are essential. So much of our fear and anxiety spiral out of control, and sometimes we just need to detach from all of the toxic thoughts. ... I will look for those posts. I have noticed that once folks getting into piecing, they don't post as much.

Phoebe, I want to talk more about the nice guy phenomena. I have noticed in reading here that there are some differences between WWs and WHs. It seems that WWs try and tell H that they are unhappy and want change over time, but H doesn't get it or take it seriously. WHs that suffer from nice guy syndrome do not call attention to their needs and bury their feelings. They tend to be people pleasers and have a strong identity in being the good husband, father, and family man. In the case of my H, he had a very strict and emasculating mother growing up. He felt it was his duty to put women first and he lost his own identity and outlet in our family. Since I was the main decision maker, it made it easier for him to blame his unhappiness on me.

I don't like to gender stereotype, but I can't help but notice some common themes. When the Hs come to the boards, they are shocked and desperate, but it doesn't take them long to admit that WW was trying to reach out to them for some time. Seems that more Ws (LBS) can look back and see signs that H was detaching, having a MLC, but they were not clear in telling W what they wanted and needed. Have others noticed this?

Esame, thank you. Keep reading and posting! This is a great community. This is a very tough journey, but you will get through it.

I decided to go back to MC with H. I am going to try and keep it more matter of fact and seek advice. Perhaps look at it like a business contract. I don't think it behooves us to have scheduled emotional spewing sessions that evoke anxiety. I will leave those for the random outbursts, and really don't want to pay for that either.

-Blu

Blu, my H is as you said - he never made clear his needs or was able to tell me what he wanted. He was raised by a very emotionally volatile mother. I've never met anyone who can go from normal to sobbing to normal to offended to... whatever emotion as quickly as her. She's all over the map. I have always thought that H learned to duck her emotions/ keep a low profile so as not to upset her. He still does with her and I think he did the same with me, even though I actually wanted to hear from him.

On the night of our first real crisis almost 3 years ago I tried to ask him what he wanted and needed and got nothing. Now it seems it was my fault he was not able to tell me. Now... I see I was missing something very important. He saw/sees himself as a doormat.

Anyway, for a couple years I knew something was off kilter, but he didn't tell me what. I wish I had recognized the red flags at the time, but I didn't understand what was going on, except in hindsight. 20/20, right?

Blu, have you considered something more along the lines of marriage coaching? Something more forward-looking, rather than retreading the same old water/rehashing the same old troubles? Prompting spewing from either of you in a session doesn't sound helpful. It sounds painful. Sometimes it seems like it might be better to try to learn new skills for moving the R in a better direction from where it already stands, as nothing can change the past. Yes, it helps to understand how you got there, but after a while it's time to move on. Reopening the old wounds time and again isn't really progress.

Take anything I say with a few pounds of salt, but maybe it's time to change things up a bit.

Hi Blu,
I am glad that you were able to get out the dark times. I have a different perspective on this issue. I am a recovering Nice Guy facing a WAW situation. After, two years of lashing out at me, and failed therapy, I got the ILUBINILWY talk. During that time I pursued just like you did to your husband, which just pushed my W away. I'm in the process of fixing my Nice Guy tendencies, and trying to save my marriage and our family with two kids.

I won't hijack your thread, but I'm willing to be a resource to you if you want insight into the Nice Guy issue.(Although I've never had an EA or PA).

Here is my link
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677964#Post2677964

Blu,

Hearing about your lack of ability to detach makes me feel like less of a failure, I am really struggling with it every day.

I never had an opportunity to beg or plead. When W was hinting about separating, I sat and listened and validated... I think only because I didn't think she would ever actually leave. This was long before I knew anything about this site, my reactions were apparently just luck. But she filed an OFP, preventing me from pursuing, which was probably good because I probably would have pursued hard, without even thinking about IF I even wanted her back.

It is sad that your H returned, and you are having trouble letting go of the hurt. I don't blame you, and I have wondered all along if that is exactly where I would end up if my W ever came back, that I would be so bitter and broken I wouldn't be able to stand the site of her anymore. That I would never ever be able to let it go, that I would never forgive. That I would subconsciously want an apology every single day, maybe forever. That I would want to control and track her, forever. Doesn't sound like a nice way to live, for either of us. Hearing you say that reinforces my feelings of not wanting her back... Maybe that's just me.

Blu I've been thinking about something you mentioned at an earlier post. Regarding working on the relationship instead of working on yourself (sorry I don't remember which post it was). I'm guilty of this too, so I'm trying to work out why I do that. I think it is a short cut isn't it? I will try to concentrate more on me, everyone's advice here has been this from the beginning. Do you feel like you are doing more of that now?

How is the MC going?

Originally Posted By: OFP

That I would want to control and track her, forever. Doesn't sound like a nice way to live, for either of us. Hearing you say that reinforces my feelings of not wanting her back... Maybe that's just me.

OFP, i'm with you. I ask myself why would I want such a broken person back. Am I not just continuing the fix-it mentality and trying to make them better. Ideally, they need to make themselves better don't they? It's like being in rehab with your addictive partner, can't be much fun and life is short already.

I believe that if you're always looking behind you, then you're never going to look forward. I think they're stuck in the past and we LBSs need to look to the future.

Blu- Sad but true: "As the LBS, we have to accept that we cannot force them to open their eyes." I'm having a hard time detaching as H and I are at home and spend decent time together, even if going through the motions. Think I'm stuck w/ mindset that's what he wants and when I do detach it may be obvious.

Know busy but If get a chance, I have some questions I listed on the top of my fourth page. your feedback would be real helpful. Thank you.

Hi everyone,

Been MIA for a couple days--working a lot this week and kiddos' activities every evening. In a way that has been good because I haven't had too much time to be anxious about going back to MC today. So yeah, that's happening. I think the break from it was good because I am going to approach it looking for concrete advice. Not sure I have the mental stamina to keep going through the hard stuff right now. I am honestly more motivated to find a new activity for myself--so much of my energy goes towards my kids when I am not at work--and I feel like I need a new beginning.

Phoebe, yes, hindsight is 20/20. I can trace back many years and see things with a new found clarity. I can't be hard on myself for it now tho because I was in a different place back then. ... One thing we have talked about is H's hardships growing up with his mom, and I think some of his hurt and anger were displaced on to me. I am the woman of the house, the mom, the decision maker, and he very much molded to me. I knew that all along, but I didn't know that it was painful for him and that he grew to resent me.

I am starting to agree that reopening old wounds isn't progress. I think I am finally ready to accept what happened in the past and work on moving forward. It is very easy to fall into old patterns and I am catching myself doing that. One way that I want to move forward is to treat the MC more like an agreement so we can work on specific behavioral changes. When we repeat the same patterns it is hard to move forward and it is also a trigger for both of us. For me, I just need a new hobby and activity; something I haven't done before.

Unbowed, thank you for checking in. I will look at your thread. We cannot mention other book titles here, but I think we are on the same page. This was a huge eye opener for H and me. He has read it more than once. It also helped me understand and appreciate his struggles, which I was blind to for many years. I will say, he has done a good job of making personal changes. He definitely tells me when he doesn't like something or agree with me and he holds firm on it. This has proven challenging during piecing, as he was the cause of a lot of destruction, but as I come to accept what happened, I can appreciate that these are necessary changes for him.

-Blu

OFP, I am not caught up on your sitch. So your W filed an injunction? I didn't realize she could do that without more evidence of potential harm? Not using any correct legal terms here, sorry folks. ... But I am glad you were not able to pursue her, harass her, etc, as that would have only made things worse.

OFP & DDJ, you guys are correct. You do not want a broken person back! No one does! When our spouses pull the rug out from under us, we are hurt, fearful, and desperate. We talk a lot about how they are in a fog & not thinking clearly. But we are also in a fog; we see our life slipping away in front of us and we just want to hang on tighter! ... If we were thinking clearly, we would not want this person that is rejecting us and hurting us.

We want someone that we can trust, someone that respects us, and we want a person that loves us the way we love them. They are not this person when they are having an A or walking out on us. However, we have seen this person change. We feel that we are changing, and often breaking apart. So that is why the most important thing we can do is to focus on ourselves and LET THEM GO. ... This is also a way to regain our self respect and tell them we will not stand for mistreatment, we are not your plan B, and we value ourselves more than that. ... If we can achieve that goal, we can be happier and stronger people, and that--THAT--is what attracts people to us. And over time, these actions are what may attract them back to us.

That is not to say that we don't ever want them back. I don't think many of you can even know that right now. It depends on what they learn on their journey and who they present to you if and when they do come back. When my H came back to me he was weak, vulnerable, and broken. However, he was remorseful, transparent, and patient. He was willing to do the hard work and do whatever it took to make it work, and he did this while knowing I could give up at any moment. You see while he was gone that year, I had no way of knowing if he would ever come back and what it would look like if he did. All I knew is that my future was uncertain.

Esame, we are all guilty of this! It is the hardest thing to do. That is why you keep reading again and again that DB is for you and it is a way of life. Yes, I am still working on this every day, even with H by myside.

Jz, check out your thread. Sorry for all the 2*4s. Like I said, I am all about the tough love!

-Blu

Blu, how much did he talk about the D when you were separated? Did he file?

CRW, he never filed and he didn't threaten it much. He did in the beginning--it seemed more to justify his A tho. "Well I said I wanted a D." But he did nothing. There were several times I asked him what he was planning because I didn't want to live in limbo, and I got the same script as before. No actions.

He says now he wasn't sure of himself, felt terrible, and didn't want to give me false hopes. He said he didn't think I could ever truly forgive him and that I only thought I wanted him back because I was hurt. He knew in his heart he never worked on the M.

I don't know if folks that file for D early on are more likely to D, but I imagine there are lots of components that affects why one does it.

Blu

Well, I'm at just about 5 months now (I can hardly believe it's been that long already, thought sometimes it also feels like an eternity), and still no word about a D being initiated by H. I know that I'm not going to do so anytime soon, either.

I'm too busy getting on with my life, and I can't do that if I'm thinking about him all day long. If I got involved in the D process, it would take over my life. I'm just not ready for that, now that I feel like I am finally keeping my head above water.

I'm using this gift of time to get myself to a better place, one where I am better equipped to handle whatever comes my way.

When I think about how fragile I was just a few weeks ago, it seems like that was another person. Of course, if I get served, I might just crash again. I'll face that if and when it becomes reality. Until that point, I'm rolling with good days whenever they come my way.

P, I think what you are doing is great. I can't see how it would benefit you to add on that stress right now. You have all the time you need to worry about the logistics, and he is not doing anything to push you.

It sounds like our Hs and their "mommy issues" might be similar. Yikes. Hindsight is always more clear. I realize now tho, that it was not my responsibility to read his mind. It was up to him to tell me what he needed and where things were going wrong. It was his choice (poor coping) to run and ultimately it did not serve him well. I think people learn better with their own consequences rather than being told where they are going wrong; I try and apply this to my parenting too.

So MC was different yesterday. We had not gone in almost 2 months and this was a single appt. She doesn't have a regular time slot right now and in a way I am glad. This appt was different. For the first time since piecing, we decided to take a step back from working on things in the M and to start focusing more on ourselves. Detachment says what!?! Doesn't it always come down to that?

So I left feeling slightly sad. I think he has been wanting this for awhile, but I have struggled to disengage from the triggers and cycling. H was trying to reach out after the appt, wanted to spend time with me, and was doing lot's of temp checking. I took a giant step back, made other plans, and then went out last night with friends. He held on tight when I came home. I am not trying to punish him or ignore him, but I am feeling naturally like I want to protect myself and create some space right now.

This is not a separation, but an acknowledgement that we are going in some of the same circles and repeating patterns. It is hard to piece when there is residual hurt and anger. Which is why I keep saying over and over and over--work on you, DB for you, detach for you. This is what will make your relationships stronger.

So I did my first watercolor painting. Went to my meeting. Then went out with friends last night. I have several nice plans today as well. I am giving myself a break from thinking about H. Something I could have done a lot more of before.

-Blu

Thanks Blu.

Take a minute and read up on mine, I'd love to get your feedback.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Unbowed, thank you for checking in. I will look at your thread. We cannot mention other book titles here, but I think we are on the same page. This was a huge eye opener for H and me. He has read it more than once. It also helped me understand and appreciate his struggles, which I was blind to for many years. I will say, he has done a good job of making personal changes. He definitely tells me when he doesn't like something or agree with me and he holds firm on it. This has proven challenging during piecing, as he was the cause of a lot of destruction, but as I come to accept what happened, I can appreciate that these are necessary changes for him.

Great, Blu. I think we're on the same page too. I hope he keeps working on his issues. I honor your willingness to (carefully) work with him, despite all he's done. My guess would be that his actions were largely influenced by his former inability to stand up to you. If he had been able to set boundaries, he may not have had to sneak away. If he had known it was destructive not to stand up to you, and if he had been confident that he was capable of being loved even if he didn't try to seek approval from you, it's very possible he would have never done the things he did. I know I was completely blind to what being a nice guy can do to a relationship.

But I primarily feel your pain being the one who has been rejected and so badly treated. I personally hope I never fall prey to the desperation of seeking someone else and dishonoring my family and marriage because I directly address my issues.

Hang in there. I have hope for both of you!

I'm curious. How did knowing about his new work affect the way you feel about him? Does it make his behavior changes easier to understand and bear, or does it feel forced and fake because he's following a deliberate behavior change script?
As for your husband, given his nice guy ways, I suspect that acknowledging his errors and working on them while not falling into a depression feeling bad about himself now that he knows will be a challenge.

CRW, I wrote a response on your thread; hope I wasn't too harsh.

Unbowed, thanks for checking in. This has been tough--a gut wrenching, mud-slinging, war path. I have read that if a M can recover after an A, that there is chance that the M can be better than before. That is if both people are willing to look at themselves and do the hard work--soul searching, etc--then they can come back and bring more to the M, as stronger individuals. I cannot attest to that yet, but hope to some day. Actually that idea is the only thing that has given me hope. Because I know that I don't feel the same way about him as before, so I need to believe that it can be as good or better, but what I only know now is that it is different.

H has to live with what he has done. I have contributed to the breakdown in intimacy and trust as well--and I have made poor choices--but the A was the straw that broke the camels back--and that is what tore us apart for a year. H is in the difficult position of having to live with the shame and regret of what he has done, and knowing how many people he has hurt. He is also in the position of earning back my trust. He also recognizes that he cannot blame me for what lead to the A--it was his responsibility to let me know what he needed and take a stand, and to not just run and justify it based on resentment. He is doing this while simultaneously recovering from nice guy syndrome. So he made this royal $hitty mess and now he has been working overtime trying to clean it up. He is easily worn down and popping too much Excedrin.

So what do I think of the recovering nice guy? Honestly, at face value, he gets on my nerves. Im still trying to get used to him. One of the reasons I fell in love with H, is because of his gentle nature, his open-mindedness and his flexibility. So trying to forgive someone and trust them when they have pulled this stunt, and then having them constantly challenge you, is well, ugh, frustrating to say the least. Not the dude I married, not at all. But, I recognize that this is all necessary and that without it, he cannot be free to be himself, and then who am I really married to?

I don't want to be married to a doormat. I didn't ever think H was a doormat--quite frankly, I just make decisions and get things done with or without other people--but he FELT like a doormat. He felt powerless and suffocated. I think it perpetuated the cycle, because I started to lose respect for him. I am a strong woman and I need and more so want a strong man. So, there is no more mr nice guy; he is gone and that marriage is over. I accept that. I am just still learning to fall in love with this guy. Sometimes, yes, sometimes he gets on my nerves, but in time I feel that things could be better for all of us.

-Blu

Blu,

Thank you so much for your insights. And I'm so impressed by your strength. I don't know if I could survive the A if it happened to me.

I appreciate your insights about thinking of one marriage being over because you married someone who used to be someone different. And now you are trying to continue your marriage with a new version of that person, who is working on getting rid of some of the qualities you fell in love with.

God this stuff is so hard.

I think my wife is having to decide whether she likes the less nice me too. She ultimately couldn't be intimate with someone she felt was a doormat, but is having a hard time getting used to the person who she's used to be able to bowl over.

I really hope you two come back changed but stronger. The good news is you guys both have that goal.

You give me hope, because you have managed to make it this far with all that you have gone through. That you are piecing and keeping your marriage together. That you are all in.

Blu--

I've been reading your old posts. Thank you so much for your continuing advice about doing everything, including DB, for oneself. That can be hard to comprehend. After all, aren't we DBing to save a marriage, to save "us."

But slowly the concept is seeping though my LBS mind. To work on ourselves, don't focus on the marriage, and our spouses can choose to get on board.

And you are right, the pleading and chasing just make things worse. I for one, felt so powerless and pathetic when my chasing and begging just kept being rejected.

I am trying to internalize the counter-intuitive idea that detachment and space actually may be whats needed.

But through this process, because of all the pain, and loss of the future I dreamed about, it's hard to know if the DBing is really for oneself. It's a fine line. Hopefully clarity comes with time, as it seems to have been for you.

You also made the strong reminder that when we all come back together, both parties have to be fully committed. So I'm in that position where I don't believe she's fully committed even though she says she wants to keep working on things.

I hope you're right about the concept that the marriage can come back stronger than ever. Because my new thoughts are that if I make it back with my W, that I won't accept what I call "table scraps."

I want intimacy, honesty, partnership, friendship and love, fully and equally. All while understanding the need to avoid codependency, and stay independent but connected.

Finally, what part of the DB or your own 180 worked best to bring him back?

Blu, I really can relate to so many of the things you say about your relationship. I really am starting to think that we married really similar men. Almost everything you say is familiar.

Who knows what the future holds, but hindsight has shown me a lot of things that I did not realize about H. It's sad. I wish he could have told me what was going on but he was too busy keeping the peace. What a terrible loss for us both.

Hi BluWave,
Just finished reading all of your threads from beginning to end, looking for guidance and calm.
Happy to hear you are doing so well and congrats on starting the watercolor hobby.
I saw my H for the second time today since he left April 8.
I've been a bit of a wreck for the past 6 hours. I made a fire, I read your posts, I took a bath but mostly I've been crying.
Would really love your input on a couple things when you have time.
having gone dark for so long and only communicated by email and then only seen each other twice, it's been easy to live in my head, my meditation and prayer, reading and listening to Marianne Williamson etc and living in a state of hope and I can do this...I am awesome, we love each other, he's insane and will come to his senses and it's only 6 weeks...
But today I just felt a total loss of hope.
We discussed the living on our property idea again. He's been looking for a place but hasn't found anything, and can't really afford it now.
The first thing he said today was how we need to 'clarify what our relationship is' if we were to live on property together and if it would be possible to live near each other.
I said I was thinking that I would love to rebuild our friendship - but he interrupted me mid sentence (after the word 'rebuild') and said he didn't want to rebuild our M.
I said that's not what I was saying, I meant our friendship.
Somehow at some point I don't know how the heck I got onto this topic but I said I was 'curious' how he could have sent me such a sweet message the Sunday before our big fight about coming to cuddle at nap time, but then LEFT me a few days later?
This was my first serious screw up in terms of the DB rules.
That IS R talk!
He said he appreciated everything we had but..then he said 'I don't want to process'...and i said ok, we are not processing.
At some point near that juncture he mentioned a big fight we had in Amstedam 6 years ago when he threatened to leave me (he was really depressed at that time) and said something to the effect that he warned me I was 'digging my grave' or putting a nail in the coffin of our R.
Lovely.
Since he has suffered from depression most of his life, has been better in last year, he does use pot to help his moods.
I realized today that last week he was definitely stoned when we saw eachother and he was softer and more open. Today he was not stoned and was harder and colder.
Last week he went on about this dream he'd always had of living on our property together in 'radical domesticity' but today he just seemed distant and hesitant.
I do commend myself today for being cool, calm and collected, even though I said a couple things that weren't that helpful, but considering my track record thus far of no pursuing behaviors etc. I am doing ok I think.
I just totally crashed once I got in the car to leave. Cried the whole drive home. Suddenly I felt like I was back at square one, day one.
While I've been doing so much work on myself, seeing my IC and feeling stronger, I feel I've just lost my momentum.
Nothing makes any sense, nothing feels like it has any meaning.
I don't want to live my life without him really. Yes, he is being a jerk now, but that hasn't decreased my love.
The thought of never going camping together, or to india together or never cuddling with him etc. tonight just hit me so hard.
And he mentioned, not sure how this came about, that what if he started dating - I'm not looking but you would have to be prepared for that.
WHAT ? and that I may want to date as well. DATE!????
you've got to be kidding. Last thing on my mind.
Is this a way to try to push me away further?
And when he talked about the 'friends' thing and then said - 'well you're still wearing your wedding ring'
In what part of his fogged up mind would he think that because he left ME that I would just take off my wedding ring?
I am so confused and angry and sad.
It's exhausting.
The worst of today is I ended up feeling like this is all my fault, that I dropped the ball and that if I'd done ? right he wouldn't have left...I know intellectually this isn't true, but I can't help going back to that week and thinking if only... this or that, and we hadn't had that fight then he'd still be here.
I take the vows I made seriously and now feel like he obviously doesn't. it's so frustrating as this is a man that works in the caring professions as a mental health nurse and everyone in town thinks he is SOOOOOOOOO wonderful.
They don't see the side that isn't.
I did also ask him that I would appreciate if he respects my privacy and not talk about our situation unless necessary for his own mental health to random people. We live in a very small town. THat was a big deal for me as I'm not used to asking for those kinds of boundaries.
I know I just need to get some sleep and tomorrow will be a better day. But I do feel if I can't hold the vision of the person I want to be along with the vision of our M working out, I just feel lost.
I find it too difficult to believe that this person with such a big heart and so much love for me so recently could be like this suddenly.
I keep seeing all the gifts he's given me over the years, he's an awesome gift giver, clothes etc. and just feel like a failure, like I totally screwed up the best thing that ever happened to me.
Don't know where to go from here. I haven't given up.
Thanks for all your awesome posts and inspiration for all of us here in the dark.

LandC, we all have our down days.

I know you want your H right there where you can interact with him, but I wouldn't push him if he is resistant. With co-dependency, it might be painful but better for you two to work on issues while living very apart. This is a tough time full of ups and downs; hot and cold running H's! I can't even count the times I've given up hope, only to read something here the next hour that brought hope back, or have a conversation with H that gave me insight into his feelings or crisis or even a slight movement forward from him. I guess the idea is to try to place those memories in the "memory file" for now and move forward with your life and focus on you (I know, I know...most overused phrase in DB Land). It does get easier, but there will still be those triggers that bring on the memories and then make you miss them terribly and then bring you to tears. Just persevere. It will get better.

I'm actually finding that listening to my H and encouraging him to talk, to actually learn to explain his feelings or actions, is helping him to understand himself more. It may not bring him back to me, but I see him coming to realizations about his own issues. And that in itself makes me happy for him. As for me, I have to take care of myself, as well.

You can do this, LandC. It hurts, but you will grow. Just keep your door cracked open for H a bit in case he follows.

Hi Cil,
This is confusing because now I'm posting on Bluwaves thread - shall I be putting this elsewhere?
Thank you for your kind words. I have been such an emotional wreck since yesterday I don't know what the heck I'm doing.
I read all of your first thread and started last one but haven't finished.
So many things are hurting right now.
I feel I screwed up yesterday for the first time - even reached out to hold his hand - eee gads!
What I am not clear on and is making me feel so angry right now is that I have so little information about why he really left besides the fact that he thinks I increase the stress in his life ... ok, won't go into analyzing that right now, I am so frustrated ... When is it ever time for me to be able to tell him how I AM FEELING!??? How I am hurting?
Should I be apologizing for my part if he is still saying he just wants to be 'friends'?
So much anger last night, feeling like he BAILED out and in a way it's made me lose some respect for him...as I never saw him as someone who would give up on a commitment as serious as a M.
I stood by him for YEARS through his suffering from depression - even though I didn't always do the right things and of course tried to 'fix' him until I figured out the right things to do.
The past couple years have been really hard for me, not finding my way since we moved back to our home town from going away for 2 years to school. We always had a big goal - built a house, etc. but since 2014 kind of floundered.
I just feel like a failure today - I didn't find a way to make more money, we filed for bankruptcy in 2010, we may lose our house...kind of feels like everything is falling apart.
well, it is!
I woke up crying today and then had to go on my long walk in the desert and meditate and write and read my DR book. It's only 6 weeks since he left and so I know this is still early in the process. I must get a grip and focus more on my GAL and finding a better job. There is a lot of financial insecurity now along with all this M stuff.
Just feel so stuck - I know I am focusing too much energy on him and need to snap out of it.
He always said one of his goals in life was to have an 'open heart' and now it is just closed to me.
Another thing is we live in a very small town and I have been very reclusive - I don't want to see anyone I know as I'll likely just start crying if they ask how I am.
I mostly talk to my IC and some friends by phone who live far away.
I am rambling. Time for me to focus on the changes I need to make and let go of the outcome of our M for a bit.
It really messed with my head when he looked surprised and then commented that I am still wearing my wedding ring.
Well, I am still married, I still love him, I haven't lost hope and is that just his guilt?
Would he feel he is then 'off the hook' if he saw I'd taken mine off?
It almost felt like he interprets me wearing my ring as pursuing behavior! I don't understand how someone as smart as he is, who is also in the mental health field, could even ask that question...or is it just too hard for him as it reminds him of his guilt, that he LEFT ME.
When I asked him about respecting my boundaries and not telling people much about our situation that it is private etc. he said I should trust him, but depending on the person and how he felt, he would say we are 'separated.'
This pissed me off as well, no, YOU LEFT ME.
big difference. We are separated because HE separated, not because I did.
oh dear, the angry self is coming out of the closet, I must calm her back down.
Thank you for your kinds words and I will catch up on the rest of your thread...hope you are doing as well as you can be!

LandC, I posted on your thread...forgot where I was!

Blue, thanks for leading by example and giving hope and lighting the way. Sorry to hijack for a minute!

Good morning blu,

Just a drive by hug and check in.

You are in my prayers and I was thinking about you.

Have a wonderful week and be sure to be kind to yourself and create moments of peace that you may enjoy.

(((BluWave)))

LandC, I am going to post on your thread, as not to confuse anyone.

SadHub, hello, and thank you for the prayers! I want to make my over to your thread soon.

Phoebe, well I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that Hs that run to OW have similarities! That is why I started this thread, because in my very limited research, I do think there is a "type" of guy that is at greater risk for an A. The nice guy who instead of standing up to his W, grows to resent her over time, then runs to OW, and justifies his A by pointing at W and rewriting history. In his skewed version of the M, he is being taken for granted, and did everything for her, when in actuality, it was H that should have grown a pair, stood up to her, and relied on himself for his own happiness.

But we cannot control the nice guy! We have got to let him go and figure this out on his own. They cannot expect other people to make them happy--W or OW--and so until they learn to look at themselves, they will continue to run. P, I have no doubt your H will come to this conclusion at some point.

I think nice guys greatest challenges are the deep-rooted mommy issues. He was eager to please her, what he did wasn't good enough, and she emasculated him and raised him to be a good boy. So it's no wonder we fall hard for these nice guys--they are not like other men! They do not go out with the guys and all the Ws friends think they are the best. You have the best H! Hes so nice! Hes a great dad! Heard that all the time! What we don't see, is what's happening on the inside--the low self esteem, the strong desire to please others, and the transference of anger towards mom to W. They are suffocating in fulfilling this image and don't have a safe outlet to be the man that is buried underneath.

Wow. I should go back to school and get a degree psychology! Kidding. No thank you!

Someone on another thread mentioned the TED talk on infidelity. I watched it awhile back and recommend it too.

-Blu

Hi Blu,

I hope that you are well, and it's definitely nice to see that the WAS does come back. I skimmed through your posts, and in one of the them I noticed you mentioned how when your H first brought up D, you had a gut feeling that you knew it was a mistake.
I just wanted your advice on how you fought that gut feeling. My H and I have had so many ups and downs, and there were times where he acted happy and like he wanted to be with me, and there were other times where he just said he wanted out. Of course I did things incorrectly and convinced him to stay (which he now says was me forcing him to stay)..but in his heart I honestly feel like he knew it wasn't right, which is why he decided to stay.
So we separated once last year, got back together a bit too quickly, and then separated again in November 2015. After we separated in November, we started MC, and things were going really well, then despite our progress, in April he said he wanted to go through with a D. He had an EA for most of last year, and I'm not 100% sure the OW is out of the picture.
So he gave me paperwork about a week ago, and I went ahead and signed and gave them back to him. As far as I know, he has not officially filed them with the court.
So this whole time, even after finding out about the EA, I kept fighting to save my marriage, and the reason I did so was because of the gut feeling you're familiar with. I know my H is suffering emotionally, but I don't think D is the solution to our problems. I honestly feel like if he ever got into a serious relationship again, it would end the same way our marriage ended.
So I've been worried this gut feeling I've been having is refusal of me accepting the fact that I am getting D, and I'm afraid my gut feeling gives me false hope, which at the end of the day, just causes more depression for me.

Sorry this post became lengthy, I was trying to keep it short. But if you have any advice you can share with me on this, I would truly appreciate it. Hope your marriage continues to improve.

-Ahmeds

_________________
Me: 29 H: 30
M: 4 years
EA Confirmed: 1/2015
(Unsure if EA is over because they were on and off last year)
Separated: 11/2015
D Paperwork Signed: 5/2016

Blu

You make this sound like all nice guys are the same which would put all males on this forum under this description.

Unbowed, I wrote you a response and somehow it didn't get posted, so I will rewrite it.

ahmeds, I will check out your thread and read about your sitch. I'll respond there.

Jim, no I am not. We are specifically referring to a book, however I am trying to adhere to the board rules. In the book, it describes a specific kind of man, and in the book they discuss why they are at a greater risk of having an A. This has nothing to do with simply being a nice person.

-Blu

Blu, you continue to describe my H to a tee. Never went out with other guys to do "guy things," people-pleaser, displacement of blame, etc..

I can't decide if I should go find the book, or if it's just not worth bothering with at this point. I've pretty much given up on reading any of the books I bought about relationships. H is so far gone that it doesn't seem worth getting mired down in all the would have, could have, should haves. Maybe if he makes another appearance in my life I'll give it a shot. Right now, that's not feeling very likely. I wonder what he's even doing these days, or even where he is.

Tho only things I'm reading these days are my grief recovery handbook and some random fiction books. Every time I tried looking at the R books, I just felt worse. My therapist lent me one that he likes, and I read it, but all it did was remind me of exactly what I no longer have - an emotionally attached spouse.

I hope that you're having a good day, Blu.

Phoebe, I just realized that there is more than one book on this, and I may be confusing some people! I have not read the other one. ... I am not sure if you should read it. What does your gut tell you? I guess I am one that thinks that more info is always a good thing. However, will reading it be a trigger for you? Will it make you think more about him and over analyze things? Will that be hurtful for you? If so, maybe wait on it.

I just want to clarify that I am not stereotyping men that are nice people. I am simply referring to a type of man that fits into several categories that I have read about. Unfortunately, those categories can lead to depression, low self esteem, and having As and failed Rs. I think the more we can understand why this is happening, and the more these men can identify these patterns in themselves, the sooner they can heal and make better choices for themselves. My H has been working hard on this--it is very slow and difficult process--and I see many positive changes and hope. I think if he can recover and gain his independence, we can ultimately have a stronger M. I am also learning to accept and love the changes.

Unbowed, I wrote you a message and lost it! So I will try and remember. You have really had me thinking more about this. Although now that I see there is more than one book, I am wondering if we are referring to the same one? Trying not to break board rules and title it here.

You asked what my 180s were that he noticed most. I think it was when I finally learned to DB more consistently--to create space for myself, GAL, and when I was thinking about moving on without him. Just overall detaching and focusing on me and kids. When I got upset and angry, or when I ignored him, it further justified in his mind that he didn't want to be with me. He could further point the finger and blame me for my behavior. When I left him alone and started to plan moving on without him, he then got scared of losing me and started to realize he missed me.

He also had to come to these conclusions himself. He did a lot of rewriting of history and blamed me; he told me that I made him unhappy, I took him for granted, and that he deserved better. What he was doing was running from our life together and looking elsewhere for happiness. What he wasn't doing was looking inside himself, and before he left he didn't tell me clearly what he wanted and needed all those years. He was trying to be a nice guy and a people pleaser.

Well it didn't take him long to realize that he was not happy with OW. He was miserable with her. He was scared to leave her because she was his only friend left. She also told him what he wanted to hear. It was all very superficial and his same personal issues resurfaced in that R. So, he really couldn't blame me for the mess that he created. The longer he has been out of that sitch--over a year now--the more he sees what a mess he was and that he never loved her. She is a trainwreck.

When he came back around it was because his life was crashing around him rapidly. I was started to move on, he missed me, the family together, and things feeling normal. He had been scared to come back because 1. I was angry and pushed him away, 2. He was scared I would never forgive him, and 3. He was scared to admit that he had made a terrible mistake. There was a pride issue as well. So when we had normal interactions and he saw that I was cordial, not interested any more, and moving on without him, that is when he was terrified and did his own 180. It happened fast that he came running back--in 1-2 weeks--and in my gut I knew that was it.

So when we started working on things we both read the same book. He could relate to something on every page! He could have been president of the nice guy club. This was a huge eye opener and he has been working on it ever since. Like I said, it has been good for both of us. I don't want to be married to a doormat and he needs his own life and identity outside of our family. He is still learning out all this is going to work and I am still learning to love him.

Unbowed, you mentioned that you are a recovering nice guy and that your W may not be taking well to it, is that correct? Did you start your work after she started to ask for separation or before? Is there any possibility of an A with her? I think each of those things could have a different affect on her, depending on your sitch. I will read up on your thread as well!

-Blu

Blu, you have described my "nice guy" perfectly in your description. Just as Phoebe did. He's such a nice guy that he is D me because "he made me miserable" and D me is probably "MY best shot at happiness". I "just need to realize that I don't really like him".

I'm with Phoebe, though. Do I get the book and say, "yep, that's him!"? I'm still holding out hope, even though I believe we'll see this D through. Since our house sold and closes in less than a month and I can move into my apartment in 2 weeks, I'm thinking NC (for real) will truly happen. I'm interested in how that will play out though.

He's had excuses to make contact with me and me with him with all of the house stuff, but that will be over with soon. I truly have no idea if he calls sometimes just to check on me, using the house or finances as an excuse. Other times, if I bring up something he promised he'd do, especially if it has to do with money, he feels pressured and is not Mr. Nice Guy anymore.

I will be able to move forward then. What were some of the reasons your H gave for his behavior and leaving when it happened? What did he say they were when he came out of the fog when he came back? I guess I'm interested in hearing the differences between what he let you know and what was really going on in his head, or if there were any?

And yes, you should go back and get a psyche degree...that's kinda what I'm shooting for, LOL.

Cil, are you really going back to school for that? Haha. I have NOOOO interest in that. I deal with enough psych issues every time I walk into work. Sigh. People are confusing and it's terribly complicated to try and sort out these messes. Honestly, I am moving into the space of not wanting to see therapists, not wanting to analyze our sitch anymore, but to just move on to bigger and better things. I am finally in a place where I want to GAL and want to detach! I need to accept that yeah, H is here, it's not perfect, it never will be, but I accept what happened, and to move forward.

I also feel like I need to be careful giving advice and feedback here. Everyone's sitch is complicated and different. I am no vet and no expert. I have managed to come out on the other side--or am making my way there--but that was not because I did some amazing job at DB, it was also the situation that I was in. In fact, I blew it all the time. I went off on that man so many times! I cried, yelled, sent nasty texts, then cried, pleaded, and then to make up for it would ignore him. So yeah, I can tell you now that that really doesn't work and it will also make you feel worse about yourself. Don't do that people.

There were differences between what I saw H doing versus what he was thinking while he was in the fog and off with OW. He told me he was done, wanted D, and that he was moving on. I pursuaded him somewhere in the middle to leave her, but it only lasted for about 6 weeks and he was a complete mess. We never worked on things. He felt it would never work and he ran back. He did not show me much doubt. He acted like he was trying to protect me and never wanted to give me false hopes, so he didn't come to me or throw me crumbs. Once he came back he was all in. He has since told me that he was full of doubt the entire time, always knew it was wrong, and didn't think that R would ever go anywhere. He never told me that. But his actions, his actions showed his doubt. ... Isn't that what they say?

-Blu

Blu,

I just read through your original thread, and I have to say it really inspired me. I don't know if that inspiration is a good thing or a bad thing because I am truly fearful of any hope I put within myself.
I have fought hard to save my marriage in the past year, but I've realized how I did it all wrong, and now my H tends to put some of that blame back on me. After he had his A, he told me I was not strong enough to handle it, therefore wants to leave.
The way that you described your H's actions in your original thread really remind me of my own H. I just hope I will come out the other side like you did.
I hope my H comes out of his fog. For now, I am trying my best to take care of me, although sometimes it is SO difficult!
I was thinking about reading the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, but maybe it's not the best time for me to read it, as it may give me some of that hope that I am so afraid of.

Thank you for posting your story. It truly was a breath of fresh air.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

I just want to clarify that I am not stereotyping men that are nice people. I am simply referring to a type of man that fits into several categories that I have read about. Unfortunately, those categories can lead to depression, low self esteem, and having As and failed Rs. I think the more we can understand why this is happening, and the more these men can identify these patterns in themselves, the sooner they can heal and make better choices for themselves.

Unbowed, ... You have really had me thinking more about this. Although now that I see there is more than one book, I am wondering if we are referring to the same one? Trying not to break board rules and title it here.

You asked what my 180s were that he noticed most. I think it was when I finally learned to DB more consistently--to create space for myself, GAL, and when I was thinking about moving on without him. Just overall detaching and focusing on me and kids. When I got upset and angry, or when I ignored him, it further justified in his mind that he didn't want to be with me. He could further point the finger and blame me for my behavior. When I left him alone and started to plan moving on without him, he then got scared of losing me and started to realize he missed me.

He also had to come to these conclusions himself. He did a lot Unbowed, you mentioned that you are a recovering nice guy and that your W may not be taking well to it, is that correct? Did you start your work after she started to ask for separation or before? Is there any possibility of an A with her? I think each of those things could have a different affect on her, depending on your sitch. I will read up on your thread as well!

-Blu

I want to back Blu on this. She is talking about a coined term "Nice Guy" based on a book. It describes men who seek approval from others for their happiness and spend their life trying to make others (mostly women) happy under the mistaken belief that their needs and desires will be met if they please others.

But even Nice Guys as I've defined act differently. My Nice Guy behavior I believe helped lead to my wife losing respect for me and then ultimately any intimate desire for me. She withdrew all sex and even touching, kissing, and really any sign of love for me, although she did not seek to leave the relationship. Then after a year of MC, I got the "My light has gone out speech."

It was then that I happened to stumble on the book we're talking about, which changed my whole perspective on my part in the relationship. Blu, I am talking about the same book you are. I am working feverishly on fixing my nice guy tendencies. It's super hard after years, and years of habits and conditioning.

I don't believe, however, that being a Nice Guy leads to having As. I have never considered an A, even though I have not had sex with my wife in over a year, and the year before that, it was totally clear that she was not into it at all. Wouldn't let me kiss her or do anything other than quick intercourse.

Obviously Nice Guys do have A's, based on your experiences.
Often, however, which has been confirmed by my participation in another forum for Nice Guys, it's the women that lose their desire for their Nice Guy partners that have EAs or PAs.

But, my guess on why Nice Guys have affairs, is that for them, sex is the ultimate sign of approval from a woman, which they seek. So your husbands were probably desperately looking for approval they felt they weren't getting at home. It likely wasn't even a tremendous desire or love for the OW, but the feeling of comfort they get from the approval.

Blu, in my case, there has not been a separation. But, the withdrawal of all emotional and physical affection and intimacy, lack of smiles, complete lack of interest in doing anything nice or thoughtful for me, has brought me to a crisis point. My wife seems willing to live in a roommate situation. I don't think that's a real marriage. It's not just about the sex, its the lack of all intimacy or tenderness. I don't think my W has had a PA, but I think an EA is possible.

It's pretty clear to me that my wife sees me a weak person for which she lacks respect. She has mentioned that all her friends tell her how lucky she is, and she feels guilty because she knows I'm a good person. But she won't make efforts to work on her intimacy issues with me.

With respect to those that are considering whether or not to read the book, I would recommend it. I told my wife I was reading it. She didn't ask to read it. And given the fact that she has taken my people pleasing and devotion to her as weakness, I'm glad she hadn't. Maybe my changes will feel more real if they seem less to her from a book. But if you are in a different position, and are truly committed to working with your man, or even just giving him the gift of insight that may really change his life I'd truly recommend it. It's also very hard for the man to read.

Finally, Blu, could you describe the difference between ignoring him (which made things worse) and leaving him alone (which helped). In my own 180s I struggle with the line between this.

Thank you for all your insights and service on this forum.

I just started the book last night.

My nice guy was always helpful to everyone, friendly, likable, exhausted himself trying to make everyone happy.He "stuffed" his bad feelings and wouldn't communicate them, but I could see that he was unhappy for years....just couldn't draw it out of him. And then the bomb was dropped.

He is a middle child and son of a controlling father, and a mother whose only goal was to be a mom. He watched his mom complain about and sometimes even physically attack his dad growing up, but to everyone else (I didn't even know this until recently) his dad just was very loving to her and she basked in it. A "perfect" marriage. Just like ours.

I never spoke badly of him, or attacked him; never felt controlled, but I was co-dependent. At some point he felt he couldn't make me happy so, as he says, he stopped trying (not totally, as he was my H and felt responsible to "try"...still does as its his nature). But he shifted to trying to be everyman for everyone else. Especially other women. One in particular became his "best friend" (replacing me), but he liked others too. He gravitated to other women at social gatherings as he felt he didn't fit in with the guys (he grew up one of three boys). He gets a charge out of being the perfect man in their eyes...and its still not enough for him. He's tired, depressed and feels unappreciated. Unfulfilled. Unloved. He uses the word "failure" a lot.

I've noticed more recently, since our separation, that he is speaking to his brothers more. Forging friendships with men again. So maybe he's working on his issues. I know he's starting to work on his issues with his dad.

I'm very appreciative, Blu and Unbowed, for the book referral. I look forward to reading more of it. And learning.

ciluzen

It's a good sign he is connecting with males. One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships. This puts a ton of pressure on their female partners, who really are not equipped to replace male friends. And if they're anything like me, they begin to lose touch of the masculinity, and then rely on their female partners to validate their masculinity. They believe they are better than most men because they are not a**holes and are not like the other selfish men. When their behavior doesn't lead to intimate success with women (like me) or their female relationships don't meet their needs they become resentful because they are such good guys. Hanging out with men can help take pressure off of their female partners and can remind the Nice Guy that they're a man, and can have fun being a man. Basically it's the GAL a Nice Guy needs to break his unhealthy relationship with women.

Crappy situations. We nice guys mean well, but we misplace our energy and then become exhausted.

Although I like to hang out with men, and make friends easy and can do the masculine thing, I too withdrew from male activities in service to my wife and her stressful career. The strange thing is that although that seems romantic, it doesn't seem to work, whether it be losing the woman's respect and desire (in my case), or our own masculine identity, confidence, and happiness (like it sounds like happened some of the significant others discussed in this thread).

For whatever it's worth, I believe most Nice Guys have absolutely no idea how destructive their behavior is to themself. That's why the book can be such a tough but necessary eye opener, If they're open to reading it.

One of the difficult thing about the Nice Guy syndrome is that we men, if we were born in the 70s or later, is we were raised to believe that devotion to women was what a modern man should do. Basically, the post feminist movement spurred a generation of men who felt that squashing their masculine energy would lead to utopian partnerships, great relationships with women (after all, don't all women want a nice guy), and would undo the millennial abuse of power men have perpetrated on women.

I totally believe in feminism and believe a lot more work is necessary by men to work on treating women as equals and with respect. But for us Nice Guys, our devotion to our women at the expense of our masculine selves ignores male/female biology. And hurts us and our female partners we love so much. It's a tough lesson to learn.

Again, I have the utmost respect for you women

I am running out the door, but will be back tonight! Keep the convo going. This is good stuff.

Unbowed, I understand you and what you are saying here. It makes perfect sense and you describe my H perfectly as well! He is recovering but it is very difficult now because having an A and destroying our family forced him--and everyone around him--to question his entire identity!

-Blu

Im only just beginning the book, but what you say makes a lot of sense. My H, I think, feels more masculine helping women. He has been opening up more to me (I've been trying to encourage him to) and told me this weekend that I was a very independent woman, something Ive never felt I was. I don't ask for help much, though, and he used to complain about me always wearing an oversized hoody sweatshirt. Ive lost 45 lbs since BD and have started dressing much nicer and an early 180 was to never let him see me NOT looking my best. I think what drew him to his "ladyfriend" was her neediness and ultra-femininity. Always asking for his help. He seems to eat that up, as a nice guy.

But yes, it does seem that he is doing more with men now. He also calls our daughters much more often, when he used to always rely on me to keep him up to date on them, even while we've been separated. Something's going on in his head, anyway.

The list of nice-guy traits? He met them all. The not so good, not so nice traits? He met those too. Like being secretive, compartmentalizing, being dishonest and stuffing his emotions. It is spot on. I don't think he would be open to reading the book, so I don't know if it will just help me understand him better?

DBing is helping me to move forward, learning about MLC (I believe that is an issue) allowed me to have some understanding towards him. But the nice guy issues...that seems it would be more beneficial to him. Not sure how to get that to him, though. Any ideas?

Hijack alert

In fact being a nice guy is the exact opposite of being respectful and connecting to women.

It's a man putting his own needs first, it's the ultimate control and master technique. The anthisis of what a modern man should do.

It's being 'nice' to get what you want, it creates distance not connection.

'Nice' in this context is tongue in cheek, it's the opposite of nice. It's nasty mean selfish territory whilst presenting a 'nice' front. It's gaslighting and smoke and mirrors and highly manipulative behaviour. It's saying one thing and doing another, whilst grinning look at me I am so 'nice'.

It's highly codependent and unpleasant because it presents as 'nice'. Nice is pyrrhic in this. Most 'nice' guys and gals won't come to that conclusion about themselves until they have to.

Nice guys are toe rags with a sweet smile. And if you tell them they are a nice guy then they may project and rage at you.

V

Nice Vanilla. I think that I was always a nice guy to gain attraction from other woman. Soften them up just for the sport of it.

I remember that I used to treat all of my close female friends as though they were my girlfiends, hugging and holding them close even though I had a girlfriend. Thinking about it, I never did it because I was strong and confident, I gained confidence when i got a smile from a pretty girl - i always used to make sure that I had pretty friends around me, due to low self-esteem.

I'm now starting to take a long look at myself in the mirror, never used to, cos I never liked what i saw.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Wow, Vanilla...I have no words to express my thanks. The coin has just majorly dropped for me on something that's been rattling around in my mind for *months*.

I always got on like a house on fire with my MIL. We are quite similar in lots of ways (we're both very strong, do everything types), and we both have a tremendous amount of respect for each other. I can see why my H was drawn to me.

But when I couldn't keep all of that up (I became unwell), and needed help and support from my H...well, that was when he started going off the rails. And that eventually led to his As.

So I've come to realise that H had put me on a pedestal. Like he (and his whole family) have done - and still do - with his own mother. And then blamed and vilified me when I couldn't live up to that.

They're essentially both unrealistic viewpoints (and very sexist at that, as well). And importantly they are very much two sides of the same coin.

Thank you. No words to express how utterly grateful I am for this insight.

I need to learn more about this nice guy thing.

As I read these posts I am torn if I fall into the category or not.

I think I have some of the tendencies, but then other things don't resonate.

Interesting topic.

Sadhub,

If you think you may have some of the tendencies, I'd check out the book. There can be some tough truths exposed, but it may change your life for the better. Since we can't reference the title, you can probably figure it out by reading this whole thread.

I think "nice guys" can come in different varieties. For example, I don't believe I behaved purposefully at the level of nasty, ultra controlling behavior that Vanilla speaks of. I really do love and care for my wife.

But my behaviors, which were subconsciously designed to gain approval and were codependent, did harm me and our relationship. For me, I also lost my strength and identity in the face of a controlling women, who grew to see my kindness as weakness. Some of my kindness was to get credit to soothe my insecurities. But most of it was genuine love and caring.

My own nice guy behaviors did lead to distancing, because I did hide my true thoughts at times when I thought my opinions would not be well received and under the erroneous assumption that avoiding conflict was a gift to my wife as she became ultra stressed in her tough career. That behavior [/b]is[b] destructive, as I now know, but for me I wasn't exposed as a secret a**hole with a fake smile, I looked for reasons for why I failed with my wife, and found the book, which educated me to how us nice guys can fool ourselves. My life wasn't a fake construct, but when I wasn't honest, I was behaving like at a**hole.

Mine was the crime of lack of insight, and a lack of understanding and confidence that the best path to love and success is to own your mistakes, and face other people's disapproval, instead of hiding mistakes. And certainly cowardice at times.

I don't believe that all nice guys all behave in the same way, but if you feel like you give give give, devote your life to others (especially women), but feel like you don't get back the love you think you have earned, then you may have nice guy tendencies and may actually unknowingly be undermining yourself. It's true that nice guys generally do have a covert contract that if they treat everyone really well, then they will get that good treatment back.

And Sadhub, I've seen some of your other posts. And feel your pain, brother. Hang in there.

Well I am definitely a nice guy and have contributed to the demise of my M. I wish I could change my switch but can only control me. Not sure I will ever be able to get into another R again. I feel like I have hurt my Web so much that she will truly never forgive which will hurt our boys the most.

From Unbowed: "Finally, Blu, could you describe the difference between ignoring him (which made things worse) and leaving him alone (which helped). In my own 180s I struggle with the line between this."

Yes, I will try my best. This is something I see people confuse here often. I think we cannot take lightly what are intentions are verses are actions. I can only list my actions here, and lack there of, but the intentions can hold far more weight. We are so much more intuitive than we are able to give ourselves credit for. That is why I tell people to trust their gut, it will never steer you wrong. When I look back on the last 3 years and where I felt my H was at compared to where I wanted him to be--I could spend a long time reading here and self-doubting---but my simple gut feeling was right. Well the spouses have gut feelings too, so keep that in mind. Even if you think you are following the DB principles, if you are doing it only to show them, most likely their gut will know too.

When I ignored him it was to prove a point and show him I didn't need to respond and that I didn't need him: I would intentionally not reply to texts, emails, and called. When I ignored him, I wondered if he would notice that I was not responding. When I ignored him, I wanted to hurt him. When I ignored him, I withheld information he was asking for. When I ignored him, he felt that I was trying to hurt him (I was), and he felt incredibly frustrated. He was trying to "make nice" even while we were S, and I didn't give him that opportunity. He felt that he deserved this treatment, however it also hurt him, angered him, and pushed him away. I kept a wall up too, but only blamed him.

When I left him alone, it was also my personal choice to let him go and do as he pleased. This was harder and was not natural feeling. I had to put emotions on the back burner. These were the times I could DB at my best. I did not chase, pursue, or try and talk with him. I let him approach me--text, email, call, in person--but I did not turn away. I listened and I replied. But I also kept my personal boundaries. I didn't show him my anger, my emotions, and I was pleasant/cordial, but not for show. When I was able to DB at my best, I treated him like a neighbor; minimal interactions and investment (positive or negative), however if he reached out or asked me things, I responded. I kept it cordial, simple, to the point, and then I went on my way.

I think understanding the difference is key. I read some of the threads here and the poster seems as if they understand; then they give specific examples of interactions and prove that they are doing the opposite. It is all about intentions! Treat them like a neighbor--be nice, hold your head up, but do not spend much time on them.

-Blu

From Unbowed: "I think "nice guys" can come in different varieties. For example, I don't believe I behaved purposefully at the level of nasty, ultra controlling behavior that Vanilla speaks of. I really do love and care for my wife.

But my behaviors, which were subconsciously designed to gain approval and were codependent, did harm me and our relationship. For me, I also lost my strength and identity in the face of a controlling women, who grew to see my kindness as weakness. Some of my kindness was to get credit to soothe my insecurities. But most of it was genuine love and caring."

Unbowed, I am so glad you are here. I really appreciate your input. Nice Guys come in all shapes and sizes, but you hit some key points. There are many, many men (and especially on this board) that are nice guys but may not be suffering from it. For those that are Nice Guys, there are varying degrees of it. I think Vanilla is describing one extreme and I think you are another.

So I want to tell you a little more about my recovering Nice Guy. He was raised by a very strict, overbearing, and emasculating mother. He learned at a young age that he needs to respect all women and that women are right. He was raised to believe that anything stereotypically masculine was bad. There was no sports for him, no popular tv/movies, and anything that had anything to do with sex was forbidden. This continued far beyond puberty and into adolescence.

His mother stayed at home and raised the children and his father worked a lot and was mostly absent. He did not have a male role model. He was disciplined harshly by her and any interest in sex or dating led to shaming. He learned early on in life to accommodate women and to put their need and feelings before his own. He often felt guilty and "bad" or that he was selfish as a child.

So my H has learned to be the perfect Nice Guy. Women love him and freely open up to him; this led to problems and ultimately the EA because he had no boundaries. I also think I lost respect for him and saw him as weak at times. He did not stand up to me, he did not initiate plans, and I was often frustrated because I did not get clear answers from him or know his opinion. I think I also became more controlling and took his generosity for granted. I felt that he was wonderful and would never hurt me or go anywhere.

Even though I was often frustrated by his indifference and not having a back bone at times, I very much loved his kindness and gentle nature. What I did not understand was that he was growing resentment, felt emasculated, and did not have any healthy outlets of his own. So the A was the ultimate expression of his passive aggressiveness and the selfish act that let him safely escape his captivity.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

At least where I live, someone can make up a story, and get an OFP, with essentially no questions asked, it is crazy easy to do. I think there are some minimum requirements, like r@pe for example, like my W accused me of! Sad part, she actually believes it! Nothing could be farther from the truth. 2 days earlier W was unloading a bunch of other stuff she was upset about, essentially her "on the way out speech", and finished by saying "one thing I have to say, the SL was great! She went to an advocates group, I think they planted the seed, she ran with it, and engraved it into her "rewriting history" routine.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

OFP & DDJ, you guys are correct. You do not want a broken person back! No one does! .... we want a person that loves us the way we love them.... focus on ourselves and LET THEM GO.... That is not to say that we don't ever want them back. I don't think many of you can even know that right now. It depends on what they learn on their journey and who they present to you if and when they do come back.
-Blu

I trimmed your reply a little. These words have been said to me repeatedly, though differently. I think this time it might have sunk in. Zephyr and/or SadHub I believe, have tried to hit me with this 2x4 a few times.... I ducked and they missed! And they continued by saying that I would not want W back in her current state. So true!

Originally Posted By: BluWave

You are right, "nice guys" can vary all over the place. I went out and did things without my W maybe 5 times the entire 21 years of our M, and every one was short. On the other hand I had some anger issues, so not totally "nice guy." Other things I vented freely, definitely did not qualify as "nice guy."

Some of my history is similar to your H's... which is something I have been focusing on the last week or so, what my feelings are based on how I was raised. I have/had codependency something fierce, and I am finding out my mother was the source of it, using shame and blame and other tools in a so-called loving way! Living there and now realizing the source, is quite painful... but probably the fastest way to learn!

Originally Posted By: Unbowed

One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships.

Huh, this one surprised me. I too have felt much more comfortable talking to women, though I have never ever grown a close connection to any woman while I was M, or done anything that should even made her concerned.

I almost forgot to comment on another topic, can't find it now but someone posted about not it being the right time to read relationship books... there were times for me that reading them felt great. Only on the days I was really hopeful that it might actually work out with W. Most days, they would cause more anxiety and I would dread the thought of reading one. So I think that it is normal, read what you want based on what you are feeling that day. For me I know there's no chance of a R in the next 6 months, and I have bigger issues to deal with now.

Yes, I think reading R can be really helpful - his needs her needs, 5 Love languages etc.

However, they are more of an investment for the future - and I feel I learned a lot from them for a future R.

As for now - crisis mode and trying to save the M. I would say sticking with DBing is the best way - keep it simple....

Originally Posted By: OFP

Originally Posted By: Unbowed

One of hallmarks of a Nice Guy is their women pleasing, and their drifting away or uncomfortableness with male relationships.

To clarify, what I meant by women pleasing is their female partner. I personally don't have a problem with male friendships. I get along and like hanging out with men quite a bit. But supposedly, many Nice Guys do feel uncomfortable.

I also didn't have any inappropriate relationships with women during my M, but, what I did do is fail to seek out spending time with male friends, because I felt I should devote all my energy (outside of the kids) to spending time with my wife, and forgoing my friendships. There's the codependent behavior. There's the paradoxical behavior where I believed I was doing right by my wife, but in fact I was putting too much pressure on her instead of taking responsibility for my own happyness.

Originally Posted By: Unbowed

There's the codependent behavior. There's the paradoxical behavior where I believed I was doing right by my wife, but in fact I was putting too much pressure on her instead of taking responsibility for my own happiness.

Yep, that is what I have read too. Being a devote husband and father and provider who is completely selfless... What kind of woman would want that? They'd rather a guy who is out drinking with his buddies all the time, having fun without the family, leaving them home to rot, no good solid career goals, etc... someone "fun." Or, better yet, have kids with the devote father with a good career, collect child support from him, get free time from the kids by "allowing" him partial custody, and then go out and have fun, the best of all worlds! Think I'm a little bitter?

OFP

I am with you brother. Mine doesn't even want to work.

I don't want to confuse these things. I want to distinguish the difference. There are plenty of nice guys in the world that are great Hs, fathers, and friends. And yes, women should appreciate them and respect them. I am sorry that you guys are in this sitch. But we are referring to more of a condition--perhaps including some mental health conditions (depression, anxiety, social isolation, lack of personal identity) and it is actually devastating and can ultimately ruin relationships. So that is why I am putting it in caps--Nice Guys--which is NOT to be confused with simply being a nice person. We all should want that (kindness) in a partner. However being married to a Nice Guy, is difficult, because what you see, and may see for many years, may not be who he is and you may not know what he is often really thinking and feeling.

What we are referring to is a man that has a deep seeded insecurity, a need to please women and put their needs before his own (co-dependency), and a lack of healthy male activities or relationships. Nice Guys have been raised to value other before themselves. They have been raised to stuff their needs and feelings and just put on a nice face. They have been taught that traditionally masculine activities or qualities are bad and harmful. They often put their partner's needs before their own and ultimately build resentment and sabotage the R: many women lose respect for them and become frustrated that he does not stand up to her (have a back bone) or have his own interests and hobbies (which makes him interesting and attractive).

Like I said, there is an entire book on this (which has been edited out of the title--sorry if I broke the rules, moderators). I know we often want to find similarities and it helps us gain more insight into our own sitch, but I do not think everyone here falls into this category.

That being said, OFP & JimK, I agree that if a woman would rather date a dirtbag than a nice H that is devoted to them, all the more reason to drop the rope and let her go! You deserve better!

-Blu

Just want to journal for a moment:

I have been reading here and am thinking about the confusion of the LBS and if they really want the WW/WH back and I have some thoughts about this. I think when a person leaves us, our self esteem falls in the gutter, we are blind sighted and scared, and so naturally we cling to what was lost or taken from us. That is why there is some emphasis here on part of detachment being that the M is over and gone. This doesn't mean you can't have a R with that person again, it is a way to help you come to acceptance.

Acceptance is the hardest piece in my mind. I keep reading here that posters are 100% convinced there is no A. They just can't believe it is even possible. I felt that way too. It took me a long, long time to even wrap my head around the fact that my H could even hurt me. He was the perfect nice guy! Well, now I know I was wrong; he was actually the perfect Nice Guy, and as V pointed out, they come with many flaws and hidden (unknown to them) agendas. I never knew my H was capable of anything but being a wonderful man, H, and father. After 15 years, he snapped. There is only so long a person can survive stuffing their needs and feelings.

So after I was struggling on my own, I realized I have to come to accept that the M was over. I kept asking myself if I would ever take him back. The strong confident me, always said no. And he knew that was a deal breaker all along. That and my anger kept him away much longer. I don't know if in that year, I ever came to fully accept that he was gone, the M was over, and to know I would be fine in life without him. But I tried and tried to act as if every day.

When H came back, he was different and out of the fog. You see, I could not have known if I would take him back while he was gone because he never showed me a person I could respect and love. When he came back he was remorseful, transparent, and willing to do anything for as long as it took to give it his best shot. He wanted to give me a change, put our family back together, and he always knew in his heart he owed it to himself to try. He knew there were no guarantees and that I may never forgive him and see past the A.

I really failed at DB a lot. And we have been piecing for over a year now and it has been hard work. So I am here to say that I could not know what it would feel like to be here when H was gone; no clue. You cannot make that decision while they are wayward because that is not a person you would want. It has taken me a year of piecing, but I can see that if we continue on this path it will work and it will be better than before.

How do I know that? Because we have both made the conscious choice to do that. It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you." For me, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, I want to have history with someone, I want to know that I tried everything I could. And so does he.

With that comes the fact that in order to recover form the crisis, we both have to be stronger independently and we have to look in ourselves. There is no way we could survive this war without that. But you see, without this crisis, I am not sure either of us would have done that. So if we can both successfully do that, ultimately we WILL be happier, healthier people. Isn't that also what attracts us to others?

So where am I going with all of this? I am in full agreement that if two people can come together after full destruction--affairs, divorce, whatever it may be--yes, the R can be better. That is only if both people make that choice, do the hard work and stay on the path over time. You cannot know that now while your spouse is gone. You can only know that if they present to you someone that is new and improved, or someone that is willing to improve by your side but only for them self.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you." For me, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, I want to have history with someone, I want to know that I tried everything I could.

Blu,
Your post is exactly why this community needs you and your story. Your insights and musing are so important for folks to understand. In spite of your challenges, struggles and self doubt in the process, you get it. You have learned from your mistakes. You continue to learn from your mistakes. And this is what life is all about in every aspect of our lives, right?! Take action, make mistakes and then learn from them and taking a different action. Happiness can be found in this journey and when we do this, we control that happiness.

Yet, so many need everything and everyone around them to line up with what they perceive will make them happy. They fail to take action, due to fears that they will make a mistake, or the mistake will be fatal, so they stand still or ask others what to do, and then fail to follow the advice, because it does not feel right. Then mistakes happen, and they rinse and repeat the same cycle. Cheeseless tunnels if you will.

Maybe this is why so many MR breakdown. Spouses want the other to make them happy and be what they want them to be, and when they are not, they bail. When, they themselves failed to put in any work to make themselves happy.

So to my point. Blu, this hits the nail right on the head and is the missing piece in far to many relationships IMHO.
"I don't need you, but I want you."
How many are struggling in this community because they NEED their spouse.
This is obvious in the postings, because in one sentence the LBS is talking about all the things they need from the WAS/WW, then in the next sentence, the comments are all about the person that they can not believe the WAS/WW has become and they do not like nor want to be with that person.

The key to this "I don't need you, but I want you." , is that each person needs to find happiness within first and serve the person they want to love. Then it will not matter how that person accepts us or not. Because we want to serve them. We don't need their approval in return.

So, is the truth that, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, about the WAS/WS? Or can we be the person that attracts the person that we want? Be it the WAS/WW after they come out of the fog and become this person, or a new person that fits the desire of this statement?

I agree that we must do all that we can while there is an opportunity with the current parent and spouse for our family. But in doing this, doing all that we can, we must be focused on ourselves first, and know the signs that our spouse has reformed. If the signs do not manifest themselves in a timeframe the we know to be adequate, then we must be prepared to move on and attract the person that we want, and can meet the benefits of our family, financial security,loves our children as we do, and will create a new history full of many more beneficial aspects for our lives. Life can be to short to wait around for the person that has caused damage to our family due to selfish reasons.

Thanks again Blu. Your insight is very wise and I hope many LBS will read, reflect and take action on this. They will find a much smoother journey with growth and progress as they do.

And I reserve the right to change my mind on these musings, as they come from the place that I am in my journey, and may not apply to all that read it.
I feel strongly that to find true peace and happiness, we must look within, and then serve others with no expectations. Love is a choice that requires action and needs to start with loving and respecting ourselves first.

BluWave and SadHub,

Those were both beautiful, insightful and very needed posts. I know I truly struggle with my feelings for my H and wanting him back. I realize its a want, though. Not a need. As much as I am trying to move forward with my new life and trying to find happiness through my own actions, it is still hard to move on past the wanting of having H back.

I realize he fits the "Nice Guy" syndrome, even the not so nice parts. He also seems to be going through an MLC. But how do you completely detach when you see that they are making some sort of effort on their own to deal with their issues? I know it may sound ridiculous to say I'm trying to DB and move on, but I really am. But I feel the need to watch out of the corner of my eye to see what he's doing. That want is still pretty strong.

Originally Posted By: ciluzen

But how do you completely detach when you see that they are making some sort of effort on their own to deal with their issues? I know it may sound ridiculous to say I'm trying to DB and move on, but I really am. But I feel the need to watch out of the corner of my eye to see what he's doing. That want is still pretty strong.

ciluzen,

I don't know that there is an easy answer for this and I imagine the time needed for detachment to take place varies for each of us. My thoughts are that it is through concentrated efforts that each of us will reach the point. I encourage that you seek out any material that can aid you in understanding what detachment is and how one can do it. The heart is a finicky thing for many of us, but like any other thing in life that is worth it, it will take work, time and a belief that we can do it.

Thank you both for your feedback. I am glad that people here are reading this thread and taking something away from it. Again, I do not claim to be any expert, however I am happy to speak to my sitch if others find it helpful.

You are not alone if you are struggling with detachment. I think every poster here is struggling with that and that is WHY they are here. And for every person posting on these baords there are 100s or many 1000s reading that may never post. I read here the entire time H was in the fog, but never could bring myself to post. I didn't even post until a month ago--our 1 year mark into piecing.

I have still struggled with detachment even while piecing. In any close R, there is going to be some degree of codependency. My kids rely on me for a lot and they can get under my skin like nobodys business! Well same with H, but in a different way; we have all this history, we share everything, and I live with him everyday. So I can never fully "detach" from any of them. So what does detachment mean actually?

Well, again, I am no psychologist, but for me detachment means breaking an unhealthy level of co-dependency. It means not allowing what that other person says, does, and feels, to dictate what I say, do, and feel. It means to love someone but not to sacrifice your own needs and feelings for them. For me it means that I can create healthy boundaries, to be free to say no without fear of them withdrawing their love. It means to accept that when they say no to me, they are not saying that they don't love me. It is letting someone go who is asking to be released. It is valuing myself enough to know what I deserve and to ask for it. It is knowing that I cannot change another person but if I am not comfortable with what they are doing, I can safely take a giant step back.

-Blu

Blu
Please keep posting. I have gained so much insight and support from your story in regards to mine. It seems we have similar personalities and were married to similar kinds of men. I struggle daily with the simple disbelief that the man I thought was "so nice, smiling and good" could do this to me and to our family. He is having a PA and EA since she lives across the Atlantic and we live in the states with an old girlfriend and has decided that this is THE R for him as ours was awful. He moved out 7 months ago. He wants to be "friends" now. Prior these last few weeks he had complete access to me and the kids. He cooked dinner for us, went out to dinner with us, would spend the day at the house, coordinate the day but would sleep elsewhere and when asked he would say he's only here for the kids and wants nothing to do with me. Did your H ever want to introduce his affair partner to the children? Can you or others comment. In the spirit of complete detachment should I agree? We have no agreements no custody arrangements. We are still legally M. My heart says no way especially since she lives in a different country and we are still M and I will not be physically there to support the kids emotionally. I just posted my story on Newcomers under MLC/Foreigner. It's not out of observation yet. You could comment there or here. Thanks so much!
Jamaica

I don't have much to post these days because things are going relatively well. I am still here tho and reading up on folks. I feel like I should be careful about giving too much advice--I am coming out on the other side, but still have so much to learn myself!

I think we have turned another corner. We have decided to take a step back from working on the R and rehashing all of our thoughts, feelings, and disagreements. That can keep us feeling stuck and the hard feelings lingering. We are trying to be in a space where we can just accept that it is what it is right now. We are trying to maintain our independence and focus more on ourselves: we are both STILL learning to DB (he just doesn't actually know what that is, haha). So go easy on yourselves folks, it takes a LONG time to get it right. Day-by-day, week-by-week, and in my case year-by-year :-)

Piecing has been it's own roller coaster. There have been so many times that I have felt myself wanting to give up. I have to thought stop (shake off the grudge of the A) and to remind myself that I want this M to work--for the kids and for myself--and that I can always change my mind if it doesn't. Realistically, there is no way to figure this out in a day, or even in a year perhaps. Now that the painful triggers are starting to fade, and the emotional ups/downs are not as extreme, I can allow things to settle.

I saw OW again. It has only been a few times, but it is getting much easier and I am not letting her affect me. She was hugged up with her new OM and again isolated from all the other kids, parents, and activities. She is pitiful. I feel sorry for her H, and especially her kids. I was proud of myself though; I went about my afternoon, had a good time at the event, and found myself even feeling grateful to be where I am in life. If you had told me this a year ago, I would not have believed you! Just the thought of her made me feel sick to my stomach--this was someone I thought was a friend for many years, and even while she was pursing my H, she pretended to be a friend.

H has been great lately and I can continually see the changes he has made on himself, with the kids, and in his R with me. I think us taking the pressure off of "working" on the M, has made our time together more natural and enjoyable. The longer he is out of the fog, the more he can reflect with clarity on what a terrible mistake he made. That helps me forgive him and accept what happened as well.

Fellow DBers, If you are feeling constantly anxious, spinning & mind-reading, or are just feeling hopeless, I want you to know that it will NOT be this way forever. This is incredibly hard, but in your entire life, it is a short amount of time. Life, people, and Rs are never stagnant and always changing. That part I do know for sure.

Peace.
-Blt

Jam,

We must have been posting at the same time. I will check out your thread later today when I have time and comment there. I am so, so sorry you are here. I feel you, sister! This is the hardest thing I have ever been through in my life. It will get better one day. You are in the thick of it. Take care of yourself!

To answer your question, NO, my H did not bring kids around OW and I made it very clear I would never be okay with that. We live in a small town, know all the same people, and our kids are friends. We even had the same circle of friends for many years. During the A, OW tried very hard to get them together, have "family" time, and even wanted H to move in with her after she left her H! This was all under a years time! All the kids would know and she had no sense to even care about anyone but herself. She is a real piece of work! ... Anyhow, even when H was deep in the fog, he kept their A as hidden as he could, and he felt very ashamed. He did not want me to know/see what was going on and he never wanted the kids to know either.

My friends, family, and therapist all told me to let that idea go and that I could not control him. I knew they were right, but I still tried. I made it very clear to him what a dirtbag he was and to keep OW away from my children. I think he knew in his heart I was right. He also did not want to hurt me or the kids. ... To this day, they are still not allowed near her or to her to kid's parties. People can judge all they want, but I will not let my guard down on this. She is a toxic woman and I do not want her to ever have a chance to say anything to my kids. This mama bear is not to be messed with!

I'll get back to you later! Thank you for checking in.
-Blu

Another kids event and OW crossing; however this time it was H with our kids and I wasn't there, OW was with her new OM and kids, and her H was there by himself. My H said it was awkward--no one spoke or interacted, they all just saw each other, and then passed by as if strangers. H said when he sees her H, he feels bad, and he can now see what their R has done to not only our family but their family as well. Did I mention that all of us were friends before any of this? And our occasional crossings will be unavoidable because we live in a small town and have kids in the same sports/activities.

This time I felt triggered. I feel protective over her H, because he went through what I went through, and was/is in the same sitch as all of you here. Now he has to go to these events solo and see my H (the A that essentially broke apart their M) and he has to see his W (or XW) there with his kids and hew new OM. Ugh. And to think she called her H her best friend and would say how no matter what happened to their M, H would always be her best friend. Ironically she would tell me this (years ago) while she was pursuing my H behind my back. What a (not at all hot) mess she is!

Anyhow, just hearing that H crossed them, triggered me, and more so than when I just saw her a week ago. He feels sad that he did this to her H and as time goes on it becomes more clear the destruction that this caused. I couldn't help but agree with him. Yeah, you two were fools and hurt a lot of people. What were you thinking? You gave up our M and family for that? She's a complete trainwreck. It's embarrassing. Now, I didn't say all of that, but I was thinking it. Then I rolled over, went to sleep, and went on with my day the next morning. Now for me, THAT is progress.

Otherwise, things are fine on the piecing front. Busy times with the end of school and kids sports/activities wrapping up. Lot's of nice summer plans and vacays. Mostly I am feelings at peace with where we are at. I am not thinking about him all the time, obsessing over the M or what is happening, but more so focusing on just living my life. I am also not putting pressure on working on things or spending time together. Sometimes just taking the pressure off and accepting what it is, makes it feel okay overall.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: SadHub

Originally Posted By: BluWave

So to my point. Blu, this hits the nail right on the head and is the missing piece in far to many relationships IMHO.
"I don't need you, but I want you."
How many are struggling in this community because they NEED their spouse.
This is obvious in the postings, because in one sentence the LBS is talking about all the things they need from the WAS/WW, then in the next sentence, the comments are all about the person that they can not believe the WAS/WW has become and they do not like nor want to be with that person.

I'd like to add to this "I want you, I don't need you" thought... I was never able to detach from my WW, so when she came around and I got "her" back, I started having a lot of anger build up. I think a big part of that is because I "Needed" my W back, but who I got back was not my W, at least not the W I needed. I got back my W who had an affair.

In the beginning stages, the person that we naturally want to chase and save from ruining our M is the W we know, but upon Bomb Drop, that person is gone. I see a future with my W, but not the same future I saw before bomb drop, I now have to consciously decide that I want the future with the W I have now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though my WW came back to me, the W that I "needed" no longer exists, and had I been able to detach I don't think that realization would have had such an impact on me.

C-nut,

That makes sense to me. Yes, essentially the person we need (and/or want) is the person and M that we had. However, we also must acknowledge that that person is not who we think they are because that person we loved would not have an A in our minds. So when we get them back, we are getting the person that has now had an A and we know that they are a person capable of hurting us. Even if no A, we know they can hurt us and give up on us. That can be hard to accept. For me, it has taken this entire time of piecing to accept this. Can I love someone as much as before, knowing they are capable of hurting me?

I don't think that means we cannot love them again tho. They are still the same person, but they have made some terrible choices. My therapist helped me understand this: H is still the same person, he has now made a big mistake. I cannot idealize or romanticize him ever again. I think what makes piecing so difficult is that both people are working on the M, while simultaneously working on themselves. In order for reconciliation to be successful, the wayward must do the painful work of understanding how this happened, why it happened, and moving forward learning how they can learn and grow from it.

The LBS must do the same. I think the reason that DB is so wonderful, is because it is what we need to be doing all along. If this work isn't done, then it will have to be done during piecing. That is something I have been dealing with. When I say work, I mean more than just 180s, GAL, and detachment, but I also mean soul searching and really looking inside. It is asking yourself those tough questions.

Just my thoughts on that.

Saw OW again today. It has been way too frequently lately. Kinda made my stomach churn. Ugh. At least the pain is fading.

Thanks for reading.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: OFP

Originally Posted By: Unbowed

OFP, I really hear you. I struggled with this greatly. Still do. As I felt rejected and humiliated without knowing why (I was devoted, never did any of the things that many of the people on this thread's partners did-A's, etc) and still experienced her withdraw and felt her contempt rise for me. I looked around and saw all the **shole guys doing their thing and couldn't understand what was happening to me. After all, I was doing everything right.

I don't know why this happens. And I don't think it's every W or partner that reacts in the way my W did. What I've read is that for many W, it's caused by biology and ingrained male/female roles.

When a man devotes everything to his partner, he loses himself, and his own identity. He begins to act for someone's else's identity. He does (or appears to) lose his passion, his drive for life. He loses his hobbies, his friends. All these were things that his partner was attracted to in the first place. he avoids conflict, trying to keep the peace at any cost. Often in my place, less out of cowardice, but more out of really wanting to not a another stressor on my W's increasingly difficult life.
Over time, this leads to small, but cumulative repression of your own desires, needs, etc.
This causes your partner to lose trust in you because they feel like they are not experiencing your true self. And (and I don't understand this), apparently they lose trust in a man who doesn't have his own purpose in life. Loss of trust leads to loss of respect, leads to loss of attraction, and anger and resentment on their part. I.e., why won't you step up as a man?

Sadly, being a good father and husband does not seem to be enough. When I saw my W's difficult journey in a male-dominated career, and her struggles with spending so much time with the kids, I doubled down on being nicer, and putting her needs constantly first. I actually took pride and saw it my life's mission to help my wife achieve her dreams, which I felt would be best for our family. My passion was my family.

It pushed her away even more. A very sad, confusing, feeling for me.

Now, I am not saying this is every partner. Far from it. Here in this forum, we are meeting women with nice guy partners who have done far more hurtful things than I have. To me, its incredible that Blu is fighting to craft a new, loving, marriage, even in the face of what her H has done.

Coming back around to the unfairness of it all. And I am speaking for me right now. This is my current path. I have tried to stop resenting what's happening to me. Taking responsibility for my own life, detaching, trying to GAL and 180 makes me less of a victim. And mainly it was because doe eyed devotion didn't work for me. Once my W got to a certain point, all my loving actions, just turned her off more. I felt like an unpopular high school freshman professing his love to the head cheerleader, only to have her tell him what a great guy he is and how she's sure there's someone special our there for him. All this with my partner of over 20 years.

So my changes away from following her around the house, trying to do nice things for her, crying, begging for hugs, etc, are adopting the chapter of DR, which talks about stopping going down cheeseless tunnels. What I was doing was not working so i have to try something else. And I'll need to find myself again, if I'm going to save this M, or to make sure my next relationship is more healthy.

To be clear, this is not a license to 180 into a uncaring jerk. Some nice guys think, oh now I've just got to be like those other completely selfish guys out there. But I, at least, feel like I've got to develop my outside life, my outside passions, and support my W and F at the same time. I've got to put myself first, and seek out my own needs, detach and stay loving at the same time. I have to be less needy, show I don't need my W to be happy. It feels paradoxical to me, and it feels unloving and selfish. But again, what I was doing wasn't working, so. . . And under my personal code, I have to do this without seeking intimate solace with another woman.

Again OFP, this may not be your situation at all. And I hope I'm not coming across sexist. But this seems to be reality for me. In my case, I think my wife wonders if she can trust me to protect her and my family, if I can't even stand up to her and for what I want.

Hi Unbowed, just reading your post here also resonates with me. Trying to do everything to follow my wife's dreams, while losing myself in the process. Right to the point I became broken and someone I look back at with dislike. I became inconsistent as I fought my own demons, not realizing the damage I was doing and the hurt I was causing. My only passion also became my family.

Hi, Blu! I just wanted to say hello! My family stuff is over, so now I'll have some time to catch up here a little bit.

I hope you are doing well.

(((Blu)))

Originally Posted By: Unbowed

When a man devotes everything to his partner, he loses himself, and his own identity. He begins to act for someone's else's identity. He does (or appears to) lose his passion, his drive for life. He loses his hobbies, his friends. All these were things that his partner was attracted to in the first place.

I very much hear you, but also want to add, I don't know if there is a "correct" approach with some S's? If there is, I also missed it. I may have gone the other extreme, allowing her to deal with her own issues, trying to go on with life and including her as much as possible made her feel controlled or that I wasn't interested in her opinion. My shift of focus went to the children. She had ideas of things to do also, but they were semi-unrealistic, unaffordable, etc. Pointing out these facts "proved" to her that I didn't care about her wants.

Blu, I am curious about the connections to your sitch. You have identified your contribution to issues in the M. I am going to assume you made attempts to keep the marriage healthy/stable before BD. And your H, did he do any work to try, or did he leave with the mentality: This isn't working, I don't need to do "work", I'm done?

Blu, your post gives me so much hope. My H has been gone for a little over 5 months - says he's "looking to find what makes him happy". He's starting to come around and we are going to reevaluate our situation at the end of the month. I want him back, and I've learned the past 5 months that I don't need him - just want. How hard was it to trust again? To forgive?

Unbowed,

Your insight into your sitch and yourself is beyond impressive; you get it. What you said here really resonated with me!

"Over time, this leads to small, but cumulative repression of your own desires, needs, etc. This causes your partner to lose trust in you because they feel like they are not experiencing your true self. And (and I don't understand this), apparently they lose trust in a man who doesn't have his own purpose in life. Loss of trust leads to loss of respect, leads to loss of attraction, and anger and resentment on their part. I.e., why won't you step up as a man?"

This is what was happening in my M before any A ever started. H put on the perfect Nice Guy face, was present for me and the kids, however he lost his own identity. I recall being frustrated that I didn't understand his needs and opinions. I recall at times losing attraction for him because he didn't have his own hobbies, friendships, or backbone. I recall at times he would do/say things that felt passive aggressive, but I could not quite put my finger on it. He kept working hard to be this great Nice guy, all the while building resentment, and it was incredibly frustrating. He would blame me for not getting his needs met, but often I didn't know what that was. I also didn't know I was being blamed. He would shrug, gasp, even walk away, and I would feel confused because I didn't know what he was thinking. I started to lose respect for him.

Perhaps you are building resentment towards your wife as well? If you are doing so much for her and the family, yet she is turning her back on you and there is no intimacy, how could you not be? No one is simply "selfless" and lives to please others, right? It is something to be aware of. So I think you are doing the right thing by detaching, GAL, 180s, and being a better man for you. That is also what women find attractive. DB is essentially how to recover from Nice Guy issues.

I do NOT however think it's normal for women (especially mothers) to be attracted to men that are selfish, drink too much, lie, cheat, and would rather go out with the guys than spend time with the family. These women that prefer that clearly have their own host of issues! However, I do think women are attracted to men that have a strong sense of who they are--confidence, interests, a strong emotional core, and someone that can add to the relationship, as opposed to being there only to support her. If we want a puppy, we can adopt one.

OFP,

It sounds like you have been burned. I am sorry, that is harsh. I can't imagine your W would just want someone you describe; on some level she must not feel that she deserves better. I think DB is what Nice Guys need. If you can learn and follow the rules, you not only will attract women to you, but you will feel better about yourself as well. I think DB philosophy is inline with recovering from Nice Guy syndrome. It is about truly learning your own value, interests, and strengths.

If your W would rather be with a dirtbag, then quite simply, you will find over time that you don't want someone like that. You deserve a woman that values you and your strong suits. Sometimes our sitches are so strikingly obvious, we can't accept it--because we don't want to.

"Blu, I am curious about the connections to your sitch. You have identified your contribution to issues in the M. I am going to assume you made attempts to keep the marriage healthy/stable before BD. And your H, did he do any work to try, or did he leave with the mentality: This isn't working, I don't need to do "work", I'm done?"

This is hard to answer! I did make attempts to work on the M--I fought blood, sweat, and tears for many months before BD. The problem was, he was in an active EA and I just didn't know it. So it was too late. Our family got complicated with a sequence of losses and extreme hardships over the course of a couple years and I was anxious and depressed. H was present for me and the family and wanted to help and fix all of it. He didn't have any of his own outlets. I didn't know he was silently suffering and building resentment. OW, being the snake that she is, was preying on him and befriending him. She wanted to "rescue" him from his hardships--told him he deserved better, flattered him, opened up to him, and shared her own unhappiness in her M with him.

I did not know this was happening, but I felt a growing distance. He still came home every night for dinner and put me and the kids first. So when I found out about the EA, everything blew up and I was so angry and upset. He felt that he had ruined the M at this point and just gave up--he felt I would never forgive him and it wouldn't work. Of course OW was right there pursuing and waiting. So he ran. That doesn't surprise me now. This was another way for him to avoid looking at himself and he rewrote history "W makes my unhappy and doesn't appreciate me." This is how he justified the A.

We (DBers) all know that no one can make us happy or make us unhappy. Happiness comes from within. I think that is the biggest silver lining for all of us here. We are forced to get it and can no longer skate through life pointing fingers at others. We are now empowered to take responsibility for our own happiness. This is the key right here.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

I do NOT however think it's normal for women (especially mothers) to be attracted to men that are selfish, drink too much, lie, cheat, and would rather go out with the guys than spend time with the family.

This was a trend I noticed when I was much younger. The girls seemed more interested in the burn-outs than the smart guys.

I still don't know what my xW is up to... But there is the "affair down" thing that we hear about so often. She preferred loser friends, more like friends she had before we met. And her previous boyfriends were definitely the lying/cheating/drinking type. I was not her type.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

It sounds like you have been burned. I am sorry, that is harsh. I can't imagine your W would just want someone you describe; on some level she must not feel that she deserves better.

I "feel" burned.

That's an interesting statement... to leave a M because she deserves better, but then settles because she doesn't? Maybe she'd rather a puppy?

My xW was (or thinks she was) the nice one. She has made statements about that she felt controlled, she didn't know who she was, she felt like a servant not my equal, she was too nice, etc. She lost herself trying to become something she is not (without actually telling me that), and resented me for it. I told her happiness comes from within.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

If your W would rather be with a dirtbag, then quite simply, you will find over time that you don't want someone like that. You deserve a woman that values you and your strong suits. Sometimes our sitches are so strikingly obvious, we can't accept it--because we don't want to.

So true... like I said I don't know what she is up to, I would "like" to believe there's no A.

Ironic, I have gotten more feedback in other people's thread on my sitch than my own thread... I need to stop hijacking.

I am so sorry you had to go through this. I am so happy for you that you got to the piecing level, and I wish you the best for however it works out for you. At least if it ends, you can do so on good terms, knowing you gave it your all.

OFP, you can hijack away my friend, we are all here to read/write and learn/grow, be it my thread or yours. (that sounded kinda dirty, lol) Actually, I find it easier to check this thread. There are so many posters that I am trying to keep up with, but it's hard to keep track of each sitch and I don't have enough time in the day to read them all.

Did you get the other book about Nice Guys and read it? I am curious to know how many men here feel that they fall into that category and what they are doing to recover. So Nice Guys, come on over, hijack away. ... I really do amuse myself...

-Blu

Originally Posted By: sr9e2d7

I wrote you a long reply this morning and then it got deleted. So here goes the abridged version.

How hard is it to trust? Oddly, I do trust H. I trust that he won't lie, cheat, and repeat what he did. But do I trust that he will always love me no matter what? Nope, no way, and I will never trust another man in that sense. Quite frankly, I don't want to. That is naive; people are only human and human's make mistakes. I realized in the last couple years that I have had codependent thinking and tendencies since I started dating. (learned that from my mom, thanks mom). It is no way to live.

I am not sure if you read my entire sitch, but I don't think a lot of people would take my H back with what he did. Life had hardships, he had an EA with a friend, then left me for her, and my entire life fell apart. We live in a small town and know the same people. So not only was I heart broken, but humiliated as well.

I was constantly anxious, depressed, and I was watching my kids struggle. I was afraid of losing my house on top of it. It was a complete nightmare and sometimes I don't know how I survived--couldn't eat, sleep, concentrate at work, and had to fake that I was ok for the kids. One of my kids started dangerous activities. All of this happened after a couple years of hardships, death, and family issues, that I was then forced to face on my own. While H and OW acted a fool. This lasted almost a year.

So again, I don't know if most women would even want him back. ... I guess I knew all along that something was terribly wrong and that he would come back around. I knew he was running from life and mainly from himself. Since he has been back (over a year now), he has made many positive changes in himself. He is a recovering Nice Guy, and as difficult as it is for him, he is staying the course. The more time goes on, the more he deeply regrets his choices and all the hurt he has caused. He is constantly learning more about himself and the type of man he wants to be.

So do I trust him? Like I said, I trust he won't lie and cheat, in fact he is still in many ways paying the consequences for that years later. But do I trust that he won't make mistakes and wouldn't hurt me in other ways? NO. But I now feel the same way about every man. The blinders are off.

I don't want to be that woman anymore--the one that needs a man, that one that needs all the romance and to be swept away, the one that finds all her happiness in one other person. Never again. That is my silver lining in this. And I will tell you, it is the best place to be. Because I now have complete control over my life and I now KNOW I will be okay no matter who comes and goes from it.

If H ever cheated again, I would be out. The last couple years have been way too much work to repeat. No thank you. This time I will DB. But not because I will want him back!

-Blu

Count me out for the "nice guy"... I am a fix-er who got angry with my xW when she was ireesponsible (which was about once a week). My only nice guy trait was providing for her, I worked hard to provide and made sure she was pretty spoiled. I took someone literally with a child's mentality and spoiled them, what could possibly go wrong?

My focus is mostly on codependence, I have it something fierce!

I know what you mean about keeping up with threads... There are only 3 I follow and feel like I spend hours a day on here.

OFP

That is nice guy sweetheart

V

I'm just stopping by to say hello, Miss Blu.

Even though there is probably no chance my H will ever return, and I'm not sure if I could accept him if he did, I still enjoy reading about your growth and hope to develop a measure of your resiliency.

(((Blu)))

Hi,

Well summer is in full effect which means I am still working, but also carpooling kids all over to various camps and sports, and seems I just can't get much time to myself. Hoping to get caught up on some of your sitches today.

Things are fine with me, and not because they are going well with H, but because I am settling into a place of acceptance. It feels safe and comfortable. It has taken me so long to get here. It's too bad I can't go back in time and tell my wounded self to feel this way. That is when I really needed it! I can try and tell you Phoebe--that everything will be okay over time and that you will not feel the same way about him if he does or doesn't come back--but I know that is not possible. I do genuinely believe in time, you will come out stronger and find better, more authentic Rs in your life.

There is not much going on between H & I--no affection, no I love yous, no R talk--but I am welcoming the change. He has tried to have R talks and define where we are, but I don't feel open to that right now. In fact he wanted to have this intense conversation and seem annoyed that we weren't "defining where we are," but I just can't do that right now. We are functioning well as a family unit, no drama, and it actually feels normal for a change! After 2.5 years of emotional highs and lows, it is a welcomed break.

I think if things can continue on this path, the attraction and R can happen naturally. We can't really force that stuff, can we? My biggest safety right now is that with this space from the emotions, the triggers are fading. It is so nice, and a huge relief, to not have all these little triggers get me in the gut and throw me off. I see them, hear them, and note them, but I simply acknowledge them and shelf them away.

Perhaps so many Ms end in D because when people reach a place of detachment, instead of welcoming and accepting it, they give up and move on. Or they begin to invest in something new and exciting that inflates their ego. I have no interest in that. I want my M, my H, and my family intact. So, I don't want to be all lovely dovey, talk about our R, and go back to MC. Well, that is just where I am now. Who says anything has to be a certain way. I like where I am at, and that, THAT, is what I need right now.

He's kinda frustrated and pouty about it, but too bad, his circus.

-Blu

Originally Posted By: BluWave

He's kinda frustrated and pouty about it, but too bad, his circus.

-Blu

Funny how the tables have turned, isn't it?

Love your updates. Be well!

Blu,

You sound well and this is good to hear.

((((Blu))))

Hi Blu, good to see an update from you and sounds like you guys are busy!

As for things with your H, I can understand how you feel and it sounds as though you want to protect yourself from the rawness of your own feelings - not let him get to close and have to go through how you feel when that happens. That said, it almost sounds a little like a marriage of convenience (sorry I can't think of a better term) where your family unit is together (which is worth a lot) but there isn't a genuine, authentic connection between the two of you and I wonder whether this is what you want in the longer term?

Maybe if you don't want to talk about where you're at now, you could let him know how you truly feel about that (as you've told us) and agree a timescale when you will talk about it?

Just my thoughts anyway Blu...and I can truly understand how tough that must be and your desire to protect your own heart. I'm not sure that I could have got to the point you have. I'm more at the cut and run place right now....

Take care & I always value your postings and look out for them xx

--- JksD,

in a way, yes they have. I think for all LBS, you should know that if your H or W comes back, things will not just settle into the way they were before. This person has now hurt you, and so while you two can learn to love and trust again, it will not be the same. It is always 2 people in a M, and yes you both hurt each other, but your spouse is the one that either had an A or walked out on you. I think it is only natural to protect your own heart. If you cannot, then perhaps you could value yourself more. So for me, I am not going to turn the table in the sense that I want revenge or to do the same, but my confidence and detachment has probably worked to draw him in closer. Pursuer-distancer dynamic or what have you.

--- (((SH)))

--- Sotto,

You bring up some very good points. Right now I think we are together for the sake of the children, the family unit, and the financial benefit. If things remained this way, I am not sure how long the M would survive. We both want much more than friendship. However, things have been so up/down, emotional, and dramatic in the last couple years, that I feel like we need to reset. Going to MC every week, forcing dates, and talking about the same issues, was keeping us in a vicious and painful loop of hope and then heartache.

I was holding on to so much hurt and anger, and when those triggers got to me, I would lose control. When we left MC I could feel drained and bitter (from all that came up) and it was hard to carry on with the week. Then I would feel this sadness that he wasn't pursing me more and "trying harder." He wasn't able to because he could feel my walls up and unknowingly I kept him at arms length.

So now we are learning to function without any of the drama and emotions. I think over time the attraction and closeness can happen naturally. We still have moments. Yesterday we started laughing about an inside joke and towel snapping each other in the kitchen and there is without a doubt still so much love and attraction.

-Blu

I've been reading other posters talk about how they let their spouse back too easily. I actually feel the same way. I think there is such tremendous relief when you realize it is actually happening--they are coming back around, or coming out of the fog, or the A is over--and so it's hard to think clearly and make rational decisions. Like I've said before, the LBS is in their own type of fog. When H left me I was in shock, anxious, and depressed, and many of you describe feeling the same. So him coming back did not suddenly allow for me to snap out of it. (All the more reason to DB and focus on the self).

When H came back I was relieved but also nervous it wouldn't stick. I saw him coming around, regretful, and remorseful--totally vulnerable--and so I started to feel that it may work. I was also so angry and ashamed at what he had done, that my feelings were yo-yo-ing all over the place. That is what makes piecing so hard! I was trying to remain calm and have rational discussions and make good decisions. At the same time I was constantly triggered and coming out of the shock, but with so much damage. All of this led to a "honeymoon" phase (but not at all really) and I think we moved too quickly.

At the same token, we have kids and the seperated living arrangement was a challenge. Our MC said we couldn't work on things further until he moved back in. He moved back in in a month. I can't go back and change anything, but I do wonder if we should have taken more time.

Been feeling down lately. Not terribly sad, just not motivated to feel close to him. Just going to let it sit for now. Like I said, I just need things to feel normal for now. I still feel envious when I see friends or couples have a close connection. Haven't felt that way in awhile and H has been back well over a year now. Can't help but wonder if we will ever feel as close as we used to.

Blu

Hi Blu, what you post is really helpful and it is always worth remembering that DBing is first and foremost for us - and if we can truly focus on ourselves, it will be 'money well spent' no matter what the outcome.

People always say that piecing is tough, and as you say, you may have made some decisions which you might change if you could go back - living apart for longer perhaps...etc.

Still, we can't go back and we make decisions from the place we are in at that time - and then we live the path we have chosen with all that brings.

When a M breaks apart due to an A - there are three possible outcomes:

The M is restored and strengthened, with greater connection and intimacy, after the A - a better M is created.

The M is restored, but the underlying issues never really addressed and so the M isn't great.

The M ends - either the WAS decides not to return (my case!) or the LBS decides to move on etc.

You've been lucky enough (I know - be careful what you wish for!) to have the A or B options. What do you think it would take from you both at this point - to create A? What do you need in order to feel more intimacy and connection in your M again. What would help you both heal from what has happened? What would help restore loving feelings?

From what I read, the times that couples spend together on healing, discussing, working and rebuilding are times well spent. I don't believe distance is the answer - and I think it is important to discuss why it is you are feeling distant and what you need at this point.

Have you read other threads on the forum where there has been a reconnection? I always think Labug is a wise poster and she and her H managed to rebuild things (I don't think he had an A though.) 25 years MLC is another wise poster.

I'm not sure if this is helping, but I was moved by your post and wanted to chime in. Hope you have a better day today Blu.

Xx

I too just wanted to drop by to wish you well. I don't have any great insights but I share the feeling that many others have expressed.You have been a great help to many people here.TThank you for that. Nowi hope you find the support and advice you need.

Best wishes

Thank you both for replying. Sotto, I agree with what you are saying completely.

I had a bad dream last night. You know those vivid dreams that when you wake up it feels as if it's really happening? In the dream I was watching H and some woman growing out an attraction. I could not tell if we were married or together, but it felt as if we were separated, and as if he felt he could do what he wanted. I was struggling with what to do and how to get through to him that he was going to have an A and he completely shrugged and dismissed me. I felt completely powerless. I knew the A was going to happen and that while H was present and being a Nice Guy, he was checked out and withdrawn.

When I woke up this morning I could barely look at him. Even though it was only a dream, those feelings are not unfamiliar. The entire time that EA was going on, and maybe years before, my H had boundary issues with women. Women always felt comfortable around him, talking to him, and opening up to him. He, being the Nice Guy and people pleaser, was present and attentive to these women. He didn't flirt or pursue them, but he was too available and then the friendships got blurry and they would pursue him. Only the one led to an actual A. So there the history began. And even before there was any A happening, I called him out on it and asked him to put up boundaries, and he never understood. It was terribly painful.

I'm rambling I guess. At the moment I am feeling somewhat numb. I do trust that H has learned from his mistakes and has changed. I think I just need more time to find myself and what makes me feel happy and secure. I certainly don't need that from him or any man. While we could work on the M, go back to MC, or really put more effort forth, I think right now I just need to honor myself more. I don't have it in me at the moment.

I am not going to let my M fall apart, but I still feel like I owe it to myself to detach further. I can't imagine feeling close to someone when I haven't learned to be happy on my own first. Plus we tried that already--there were many ups and intimate moments, but there were just as many painful ones.

Thanks for reading.
-Blu

Blu, I feel extreme empathy for the pain you are feeling... I neither have to deal with the longevity of the A, nor the seriousness of their R that you suffer from. I'm not saying that any A is not painful, but I imagine that it is much more difficult to deal with when your S moves away from you and lives with the OP... Add on top of that the fact that you live in a small town, and have to see and hear from OP on a somewhat regular basis, and I pray God gives you the strength that you need to move onwards and upwards.

With that said, it seems to me like what you need is your husbands support and love, distancing yourself from him seems counter productive to me. You've decided to save your M, and that means having a S by your side that is there to support you when you need it, and vice versa. At some point you need to give yourself to your H, and him to you. You've done a year of hard work, instead of taking a break from that and detaching, why not take a break from the work and lean on your spouse? Let him in, let him carry you when you need it, it's either going to work or not, but it seems like to me, that you don't want to spend your life working on it and never reaping the benefits of that work.

I may be speaking out of turn, for you have much more experiencing with piecing than I do, but I would just love to see you happy, even if that happiness comes from a place that makes you vulnerable to more pain.

Thank you, C-nut. The feedback is much appreciated actually. I have read your posts and I think you give great advice. Granted you do not always take your own advise, I still think you make many valid points. Haha.

I would agree that I could use a lot more love and support from H. He has never been much to initiate and that is also hard for me. He tends to be more of an observer and less to reach out or make plans. I know that is his nature, but it still hurts sometimes.

I guess I am just trying to be okay with it all. It would not feel natural for me to reach out to him right now. The M has proven to be long and there are many years ahead. Don't think I can force it at this point.

-Blu

Hi Bluwave, perhaps your H does not know how to truly love. He cannot show you something that he does not comprehend.

Most people think that love is holding hands, butterflies in the stomach, sex - i was one of them.

Real love is action. Real love comes from God and it is our duty to pay that love forward. We must be selfless in our actions and never practice inaction. It is inaction that got us here today and only action will get us through this.

Blu, I finally am having a chance to get caught up a bit and I just have to tell you how sorry I am that you aren't feeling happier in you M these days. Your H hurt you terribly and your instinct is to prevent him from ever having that kind of power over you again. You want to feel some measure of safety from that risk.

On the other hand, I think that Sotto, Coconut, and others are on to something. Distancing is easier right now, and that is absolutely understandable, but it's not an approach that will nurture your relationship, and I can't imagine that either you or your H would prefer to remain where you are right now for the long haul. It would be a very sad state to be stuck in.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that you do what you need to for a little while longer if it helps you, but put a limit on this distancing phase, lest it become the new normal. If you can't see yourself ever being able to be fully open with him and vulnerable to him again, then perhaps saving your M may not be in your own best interest. Are you willing to settle for your R in its current form, were it to remain as it is today? Would your H be willing? If the answer is no, then you know what you will need to do - work through things or let it go.

I would also suggest that you talk frankly to your H about what you are feeling right now. If you don't feel emotionally safe, tell him that. If you feel lingering anger, tell him that, too. The reality is that right now it is his job to help you through this. He is the one that created the distrust and reluctance you are feeling. You can't learn to trust or feel safe with him until he is willing to show you that he is safe and trustworthy. I think that the lack of safety you feel with him is making distance and further detachment look like the more attractive option. He's not a mind reader, so you are going to have to tell him what you need.

Obviously I am far from the ideal person to be chiming in here. Know that if I have overstepped it was done out of care and concern. Only you can make decisions in how to proceed.

Wishing you well.

(((((((Blu)))))))

Thanks everyone, for posting and for those of you simply reading or following my sitch. I know I was reading here for a long while before creating an account. It helped me get through some very hard times to know that I was not alone and that things would not be as they were forever. Sometimes when I felt so anxious, depressed, or helpless, I would come to the threads and just read for hours. So hello out there to you all--I was you--and you one day will be in a different place. That much I do know. :-)

Honestly, I am okay with the way things are for now. That is where I want to be, just to be at peace with my life and off the roller coaster. We are not in MC right now, we are not actively piecing per se, but we are okay. We get up, he makes my coffee, we go to work, we have balance with managing the kids and home, and we enjoy family time. There isn't much in the way of R talks, and H wants to create more definition to where we are--meaning what our expectations are from each other--and so I have been thinking about that. I wish he would put more effort forth into spending time together or initiating time just the two of us, but I am not going to dwell on it. I want my feelings for my M to be authentic and not forced.

So I have been reading other threads, but haven't stayed caught up enough to post, so I wanted to throw out an idea here. I think it's okay to not be in a hurry to make decisions and have to define the R. There is a lot of talk on other threads about needing to make decisions--to file or not to file, to move out or not, to tell the H/W that they expect this or else, etc, etc. And honestly, I see this all as a form of control. (C-nut, yeah I am talking to you too).

I am also reading that the wayward is acting the same way--threatening to move out, or file for D, or just needing to proclaim their position on where things stand. Again, I only see this as a form of control. When actions and words continue to come into conflict, then why not give ourselves permission to let it lie? Really think about this, what is the hurry to make any decision? Making decisions and taking action will not lead to feeling better, the regaining of control is just a crutch to ease the pain and loss of control.

So I just want to challenge some of you that are pressuring yourself or your spouse to make changes or to take action, that you should ask yourself how that will benefit you in the long run. It took time to know that we wanted to spend our life with this person, so it cannot be decided in a few weeks or months that we do not. When we try and rush (control others), we are only acting on emotions and ultimately do ourselves harm as we sabotage the M further.

-Blu

Last night I did my own 180. I didn't let myself overthink, I decided to skip the R talk, and I just let myself be in the present. No R talks. No drama. But more so, I just accept that this is where we are. At bedtime things were light and airy, had a few laughs, and ultimately ML. It had been awhile and it was great. I know he still wants to talk and lay out where we are and what are expectations are of one another, but it didn't happen last night and that's ok. Sometimes it's ok to just let it be. And now that we have reconnected, I feel more open to that conversation.

I still get triggers. I still think about OW. The difference is that I am allowing those thoughts, not fighting them off, but more so not letting them consume me and weigh me down. She doesn't deserve that power. The sting is fading. Maybe that is simply because time is passing, but I like to believe it is because I am taking control and not allowing it to affect me so deeply. That's all I feel I really can control. That is all any of us can control really. The more you can DB and learn to love yourself again, the more strength you can gain and harden your shield from the painful thoughts.

-Blu

Blu, I am following your thread but it's a little painful so I don't comment... My H is currently living with OW in what was our home and I don't think we'll get back together. Or that it would even be healthy for me.

But the hope and dreams are there. H and I reconciled twice but he wasn't willing to do the work (according to our MC). I wish you the best of luck.

touch� Blu, I hear you loud and clear

I just want to say I want to tell her what I want, not to be controlling, but to let her know what would show me she cares. She may or may not do them, but I don't think it's fair for me to want those things without letting her know that I do.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I'm now a little more clear about what you were referring to when you said you need to take a break. I thought you meant back away and distance yourself, but now it sounds like you just want to take a break from the "hard work" and just enjoy the R you have now.

I agree that is not a bad thing, it can be mentally exhausting to always be trying to fix things, and it feels good to occasionally just be in the present and enjoy what it is. I think that is what you should tell your H, instead of dreading a R talk, initiate the talk and tell him what you said, that you just need to spend some time with where you two are. Tell him that you just want to be light hearted for a couple of weeks and maybe even enjoy some more laughs that come naturally like the other night.

just curious, but have you two been to retrouvaille (sp?) or a weekend to remember? I think I may schedule the weekend to remember for August since it is a less intensive session, and then thinking maybe try retrouvaille next year.

ps - time to start a new thread.

Link to new thread here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688297&#Post2688297

... and you know what else? I was looking back at my old threads and I can see how far I have come in just the 2 months I have been posting. Perhaps coming here & doing more than reading is really helping me ...

Thanks everyone :-)
-Blu