I calling to setup another coaching appt tomorrow, but I'm really having a hard time balancing my process. Coach told me W is in such distress, I need to be kind, caring, and ask/validate her each time I can to try and rebuild the friendship first, and NOT focus on any R topics...
I get that, and I understand the detachment process, being positive, and being subtle in ways of telling her (when asked), you've GAL and getting on with it (with or without S).
I feel like when I'm put into situation where she's wanting to just talk as friends though (per coach, what i'm trying to rebuild as my first 'step'), things might be going a little in the opposite direction that I'd like. She seems sadder, more hurt. I stay brief about myself, and continue to try and convert the conversation in a way that SHE can talk about herself, but she never does... She just wants to ask more questions...
She 'isn't allowing' us to stay in the same house together right now, going on about a month. So there's no "passing by" each other; it's on a schedule.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong. Like I said, I need another appt, but if someone who's seen/experienced this in the past could shed a tiny light, I'd be very appreciative. Thanks.
First thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2676652#Post2676652
Many of us are in our situations because we let the connection with our spouses disintegrate. Without being connected everything else unravels. Your coach is trying to help you rebuild a connection. Once that is re established, the next step is to enhance the emotional connection and ultimately rebuild a R.
You do not want to be just friends.I get that. But that is not the destination.IIt is just a stage to get through. Don't get hung up on that for now. Just accept that it is good for ye to rebuild any connection.
Don't mind read your W. You have no way of really knowing what she is thinking. Your post is too short or not detailed enough to allow people here have any real insights. But your turmoil we see and understand. Maybe I missed another thread.
What I do see is that you are pushing the conversation/communication. If she is not ready you cannot force it. If she is engaged continue, if she us withdrawn back off.
I think it is good that she asks questions. Many WAS have absolutely no interest at any level in the lbs that they ask nothing.
This is a slow process. Be patient. I would be interested in knowing how your coach advises you going forward.
Good luck .
Many of us are in our situations because we let the connection with our spouses disintegrate. Without being connected everything else unravels. Your coach is trying to help you rebuild a connection. Once that is re established, the next step is to enhance the emotional connection and ultimately rebuild a R.
You do not want to be just friends.I get that. But that is not the destination.IIt is just a stage to get through. Don't get hung up on that for now. Just accept that it is good for ye to rebuild any connection.
Don't mind read your W. You have no way of really knowing what she is thinking. Your post is too short or not detailed enough to allow people here have any real insights. But your turmoil we see and understand. Maybe I missed another thread.
What I do see is that you are pushing the conversation/communication. If she is not ready you cannot force it. If she is engaged continue, if she us withdrawn back off.
I think it is good that she asks questions. Many WAS have absolutely no interest at any level in the lbs that they ask nothing.
This is a slow process. Be patient. I would be interested in knowing how your coach advises you going forward.
Good luck .
Coach and Others on the Forums are saying that she's MOSTLY asking those questions because she is still striving for control of my life, even though she's said she is considering wanting out.
I've been told, when she asks those questions, that she's basically lost the right to know 'those things', but I feel like if I do that, it's actually damaging to the 'friendship' part of this that I'm trying to rebuild.
You know, what kind of friend responds to the question, "who all went to dinner last night?" with, "none of your business"... that shouldn't go well. Maybe I'm getting bad advice from people in slightly different situations that the one I'm currently in.
To me there are definitely differences in how your treat at WW vs a WAW
It's why I snooped a couple weeks ago. I wa trying to figure out which I was dealing with.
If I had WW like I had last time I would have moved lit right away and gone dark except for contact about our son.
But since I didn't find anything I believe I just have a WAW and I'm taking advice of coaches
You obviously feel very conflicted about the pros and cons of the "friendship" advice. Perhaps you have shared more with your coach than with the board, which is not uncommon. They know the questions to ask about your S and the MR. From what I gather, they do seem to lean toward a softer approach.......being friends........etc.
I think it matters a great deal if the W is wayward. B/c of her mindset, she will not respect a man who settles to become her friend and supports her wayward lifestyle. She will bully and control.....and play her "friendship" card when it suits her needs. He will be so confused about what he should do and not do as her friend.
IMHO, he cannot focus on being a friend to his wayward wife as long as she is openly disrespecting and rebelling against him and their MR. Once she is willing to stop the wayward behavior, and is willing to do the necessary work in saving the M..........then a friendship can develop as they slowly get back into the R.
If the WW is an emotional bully, I don't believe her H can afford to be a friend until he first gets control over his own actions, instead of her controlling them. Some H's have been controlled for so long........they don't even recognize it, and think that's what M is.........but that's not right. A bully does not respect the person they control, and she certainly is no friend!
In MWD's books, she doesn't appear to separate wayward wives from walk-away wives. I believe the true reasons of why the W wants out of the M is extremely important. If she is not wayward...............then I could understand the H trying to gain her friendship first.
If the H is going to be detached, it seems to me that he has to look at her with a detached VP and decide if he wants to be friends with a person like her.
I may stand alone on this topic. I just don't believe a spouse who wants out of the M gets to have it both ways. As long as they have the best of both worlds.........the longer they will remain in both worlds.
If you are not good enough to be her H, I think you have to ask yourself if you want to settle for friendship.
I snooped a few weeks ago and found several hundred texts from my W to a co-worker (OM), so there was some form of an EA there. But it went on for about a week, and then there were 4 texts from my W to OM, and then they just stopped all together (no secret messaging apps install or anything either).
There have been less than a handful of texts from OM to her, since then, in the past 2 weeks or so, but she has never responded to any of them. So I think she either ended it, or told him she can't do this right now, or something along those lines. She has yet to admit the EA to me, and I haven't pressed the issue in fear or her knowing I "snooped/spyed/etc".
Since she's ended that contact and response ti OM (he's in a M too), Coach thought it was best to start with the Friendship rebuilding, and then deal with the problems later (I agree). But since she refuses to be around me physically, in the same house, it's been a struggle on whether I detach and make her realize what she's missing, vs becoming a true friend to her and someone she can start to rely on for sharing herself with me again.
I know patience is key, but I feel that if I continue the 'friendship' route, it's just going to lead her into thinking that I'm not going to fight her in her choice of not wanting to ever work on our M or R in the future.
Should I continue this friendship route, or start to detach and make her realize what she's missing by leaving as a LBH?
I think it matters a great deal if the W is wayward. B/c of her mindset, she will not respect a man who settles to become her friend and supports her wayward lifestyle. She will bully and control.....and play her "friendship" card when it suits her needs. He will be so confused about what he should do and not do as her friend.
IMHO, he cannot focus on being a friend to his wayward wife as long as she is openly disrespecting and rebelling against him and their MR. Once she is willing to stop the wayward behavior, and is willing to do the necessary work in saving the M..........then a friendship can develop as they slowly get back into the R.
Thanks for the response sandi2, please review my last post, as well as this follow up question and let me know what you think...
It appears she WAS Wayward with an EA, but there's been no solid proof, or admittance of this, only phone records to the guy that I haven't shown her yet.
Those same records indicate they are no longer speaking, he's texting her 1-2 times a week, she's not responding.
However, she's still standing her ground on NOT wanting to work on the R and saying she wants out, but it's been over a week and she still hasn't filed, or moved out... she's only "forcing" a strict 'no common time in the house' schedule. we work together on who gets what days, etc...
Should this be viewed as a WW or a WAW in this concept? It seems to be kind of in the middle to me, but I'm very close to withdrawing completely and detaching, against the word of my coach. Not sure if that's right or now. any help????
betterm,
Please stick to one thread you've reached 100 postings/replies. The reason for the limitation on postings is that it makes it easier for readers to post to you and not have to go to more than one thread at a time. Also, it's easier for you to link threads and be able to go back and check your progress along the way.
Cadet will most likely merge your two threads together tomorrow.
betterm,
Please stick to one thread you've reached 100 postings/replies. The reason for the limitation on postings is that it makes it easier for readers to post to you and not have to go to more than one thread at a time. Also, it's easier for you to link threads and be able to go back and check your progress along the way.
Cadet will most likely merge your two threads together tomorrow.
yes sir, and i apologize. I thought the 'topic' would relate more to a general consensus that my story alone. thanks and i'll stick to the other thread now.
You are very new to the forum and we all have done the same thing in the beginning.
BTW, you can change the subject at any time when you post a new reply.
Don't apologize...we all have been there and done that.
Instead I suggest you use this as your new thread as the other one is over 100 posts and has been locked.
Okay, I'll start using this thread moving forward. Thanks
The last time I talked to my W, she mentioned her brother's divorce briefly, and I wasn't going to bring it up to her, but when her Bro and Ex-Sis divorce, she cried and raged about how she can't believe they didn't try a little bit harder to make it work out. The divorced right around the two year mark....
And here we are, right at the 2 year mark on both of our first marriages, and she's throwing in the towel. I wasn't going to bring it up on my side, but since she mentioned it, I said, 'do you remember all the things you said about how they just didn't try hard enough. How they could've worked to be better if they'd only put in the work, and they were both just too stubborn to do anything about it... What makes this any different?"
She didn't have a good answer, but she said she can't explain why it's different for her, She just is numb right now, she's "Effed Up" emotional and psychologically and is in no state at all to try and repair a broken marriage. I could tell she was angry with my question, so I just validated her response and told her it must be hard to deal with something like this, that made so much sense on what needs to be done from the outside, looking in, yet now that you and me are in the situation, it's so easier to make the decision to call it quits. That's got to be confusing as hell...
I didn't expect much of a 'good' response. I was really just hoping that I could shed some light on the whole "outside looking in" vs "being inside" the situations, and hoping she might put some thought into it a little bit. Not sure if that was good or bad, but can't hurt to use her own words to make her think a little bit, without making any accusations or blames.
I just got home from work, well, to my parents and my dad was heading off to Bible study group.. Asked me If I wanted to go and I actually considered it. I'm not religious, biblical, etc... but I'm thinking it's just 'something new' that could help me get through this... I ended up declining and he just spoke a few words of good hopes to me. He's never been a fan of my W's "ways". He's always saw her as righteous, difficult, judging, etc... but said he loves her and no matter what he loves me first and wants me to do whats right for me... HE almost backhandedly is trying to remind me of all of her ridiculous actions and rants from the past, and i heard him saying subliminally, 'hey, are you sure you even want to be with this woman forever'... It's something that I laughed about, and then cried about, because deep down, I have no effing idea why I would want to be with someone like her, but I freaking love her and have many reasons why I want it, but go back and forth on why I would choose to deal with the things I've had to deal with, with her as my GF, and now W.... goodness gracious!
Quick text convo with W... She saw me heading the other direction while she was on way home from work... she text'd, "going out for a bit, be safe, call if you need anything"... I just responded, "yep, heading out for a bit, I'll talk to ya tomorrow or Wed."... I have visioned the conversation we are having on Wed in my head a hundred times already, and I can't find a good way that I'll be able to "make the meeting end pleasantly", as the coach said. W is going to flip out and rage when I tell him I'm not leaving, or selling, the house that was mine pre-marital. I don't plan on mentioned the words "pre-marital", but that's what it is, and that's what she'll hear. She's so full volatile when it comes to 'life talk' and can't believe she'll handle anything I'm going to say with a 'kind' and 'civil' attitude like we agreed to.
Stop mind reading. You don't and can't know.
Stop predicting outcomes.expectations can become self fulfilling prophecies.You have a stance to take. She can react as she wants to. Ultimately you cannot control that. But don't get drawn into a confrontation or try to "be the one who is right".
Between now and then work on reducing your anxiety. Be in a place where you can remain calm during conversation and not react badly regardless of what you are hit with.
Even if she does explode, that is irrelevant in the long run. Whatever she says or does, know that it is not catestrophic. Some could even go as far as to say that it is good if she is annoyed. It shows feeling and is often because they realise you are nolonger their puppet, who will do whatever they want. That realisation is often a first step towards regaining respect.
The most important thing for you to focus on is keeping your cool. No resentment.No anger. No morality.Firm, calm and strong. Like Clint Eastwood, well that is the reference used most often here.
Best wishes
Stop mind reading. You don't and can't know.
Between now and then work on reducing your anxiety. Be in a place where you can remain calm during conversation and not react badly regardless of what you are hit with.
Some could even go as far as to say that it is good if she is annoyed. It shows feeling and is often because...
The most important thing for you to focus on is keeping your cool. No resentment.No anger. No morality.Firm, calm and strong. Like Clint Eastwood, well that is the reference used most often here.
Best wishes
Thanks Roist, These words I've quoted above I think hit the spot. I have GAL, I am doing everything I can to eliminate unnecessary feelings/outcomes of our sitch. But I'm flawed in constantly overthinking things, which in turn makes me a very anxious person. I need to find more calmness, and just accept what will happen, will happen, and I can't stop or create an environment where she won't be the one to make things worse for her.
Also, you comment on her 'actually feeling something', made me remember, she told me the other day, "I don't know what I'm feeling, Honestly, I feel nothing... Numbness, and I know I'm 'effed up' and I will keep seeing my psych for this, but right now, I just feel nothing at all" (summarizing). But I think you're right, people who feel "nothing", have nothing in life to look at or live for, they are just existing. If she does show emotion and feeling, even if it is negative/bad/anger, at least that shows that she does still have some feelings toward this/us, which would be good, regardless the outcome.
I need to find more calmness
So how will you do this?
It's something I'm continuing to work on, and I've been meditating twice daily for 10 minutes a piece... it's helping, but obviously this is a huge event that's caused a little more need for attention. The meeting is tomorrow, at a coffee shop (no clue why she'd want to pick a 'crowded' 'noisy' place... but none the less)...
I will definitely write for about 10-15 minutes, freehand to get any stray thoughts out of my head, prior to the meeting. and certainly meditate RIGHT before hand. in my car. parking lot, something. focus on belly breathing throughout the conversation... and recite my responses and comments several times prior, throughout today tomorrow... and ummm, any other suggestions?
Slow down. Right now, even though you are meditating, journaling,reading, etc., you are in panic mode. Its oozing out of your posts. Stop. Breathe. There is no timeline on this. I sense that you see yourself as a drowning man, grabbing at sticks and seaweed floating by, ANYTHING to grab ahold of. But you're not drowning. You are standing in the shallows. So just stop.
When you go to your meet at the coffee shop, have no expectations. Just try. And tell yourself to listen. Don't defend, beg, or rage. Don't try to control the situation in any way. Just listen. Make eye contact and be pleasant. Be polite and gentlemanly. Do not react in anyway to what she says other than validating her feelings.
Remember, you have as much time to do this "right" as you need. Don't push it. Don't push anything. Just listen. If she says you're done, agree that you understand that's what she wants. Period. And that's when your work on your marriage really starts. So don't argue. Be vague and agreeable. Don't pressure and don't ask questions.
When you leave, go scream or cry or rage in the car with the music blaring. Talk to the air. And then go "home" and start DBing and make a plan. DB the heck out of this. Work on you and leave her alone to work on her own issues. She obviously needs to. Just try.
betterm,
The thing that reduced my anxiety the most is that I became more confident. Even though life has been a lot more difficult now that my marriage is spiraling downward, I finally realized that I can handle almost anything that comes my way. It may not be comfortable, but I can work through it and move on.
That realization gave me a lot more confidence. Once I was more confident, I had less fear and less fear begets less anxiety. And a nice side-effect of confidence is that I'm much less concerned about my WW's reactions and moods, so I'm not worried about what she'll say or how she'll react. Don't get me wrong, I'm nice to my WW, but if she's less than pleasant, I don't mind telling her to leave.
What do you fear and why do you fear it? What if the worst happens and all you can do is live though the situation (i.e. you have no control); would you survive?
Thank you, I needed to hear this.
Thank you, I needed to hear this.
Likewise, Thank you both for the last few posts...
betterm,
What do you fear and why do you fear it? What if the worst happens and all you can do is live though the situation (i.e. you have no control); would you survive?
This is a question that others have asked me as well, and I don't have yet to find a good answer for it. I don't fear that I cannot live alone, or handle anything that comes my way, I'm confident of those things, as many would say I have been 'surviving' alone for quite some time anyways (her too). Being overly-critical of myself, I think it's more along the lines of admitting defeat. I set out to build something, with her, for a reason. Those reasons weren't just chalk drawings on a sidewalk, but a map of how our wonderful future would play out as a team. I need to swallow that pride, and admit I've failed in what I have already failed in life, and move on with what I can actually make a difference in, and that's my future and how to better it. Whether she's around or not. It's that last part that creates the panic though. I want her there, I don't want her there, it's "FUD" at its highest level. I'm not afraid I can't live on and start something new, It's FUD that the 'something new' I'm creating, isn't going to measure up to what I saw for our future. I just need to come to terms with this, and stop FUD in its tracks, and resist over-analyzing what could be vs what could've been.
Thanks again.
If only I had learned this sooner (you've probably already seen this, but)...
Go to youtube and search "It's not about the nail"...
Listening skills 101
I did a lot of homework last night, and was feeling really good about the meeting with my W today. I wish I could say the same for how I woke up this morning. I'm nervous, anxious, and even though I know I need to find calmness, have yet to find it today. I'll rework cil and dood's words and hope to find inner peace with myself before the talk today.
Remember... It's at a coffee shop, Caffeine makes me crazy, loopy, and excited... I shall NOT drink coffee before, or during this meeting! That's a good start at least.
My W installed this app on my phone a while back, it's some kind of Buddhist daily quote thing...
The quote today: "The genius of man is hidden in the silent, settled state of mind from where every thought emerges."
Yesterday: "Don't fight the darkness. Bring the light, and darkness will disappear."
Before that: "When we think of failure, failure will be ours. If we remain undecided nothing will ever change. All we need t odo is want to achieve something great, and then simply do it. Never think of failure, for what we think, we become.
As much as I joked about her random "spiritual" sillyness at times, I feel these all apply greatly to what a lot of us are going through right now.
I need to swallow that pride, and admit I've failed in what I have already failed in life, and move on with what I can actually make a difference in, and that's my future and how to better it.
betterm,
I went through the feelings of failure as well. I still feel that way often, but I didn't fail because I didn't try or didn't want to try, I failed because of something that was out of my control (my wife wanted the divorce). I was ready and willing to do almost anything to make the marriage work, and that's the best I could do.
betterm,
I went through the feelings of failure as well. I still feel that way often, but I didn't fail because I didn't try or didn't want to try, I failed because of something that was out of my control (my wife wanted the divorce). I was ready and willing to do almost anything to make the marriage work, and that's the best I could do.
I think the failure is all part of the process, without identifying it, and accepting it, we're really just placing the blame on someone/something else. Hell, even my W has said she feels like a failure, although, she hasn't fully accepted any responsibility for her wrongful actions during the marriage, but that's not my issue right now to worry about.
I've re-read the validation cheat sheet about 15 times already today, and plan to validate the [censored] out of her during the meeting. There are two areas I'm still trying to cover prior to meet though:
First, Empathy is something that should really be tied to the validation statement, right? Like "I hear what you're saying and see how that could've made you upset". That's a validating and empathizing statement all in one. And I should stay away from "I'm sorry that you are mad about XYZ", because I'm not really apologizing for anything other than her reaction to something, as opposed to the action/event itself. Does this all seem right for validation/empathy?
Second, I'm going to avoid R talk at all cost. In the past I've said things like "no, thanks, I don't have anything to say in regards to our MR or future", and it's confused the hell out of her. But, she's pushy and manipulative... What shall I do if she directly asks something along the lines of "Why should I believe things would be different if I chose to stay married?" ... How should one respond to that when we are trying to avoid MR talks?
I talked to another coach (not DB-coach), and she's got such a complete opposite approach to my sitch. She knows a little more about the past as I've spoke to her on the phone for a few hours now. She said my W shows a pattern over the course of almost 10 years that seems to be repeating, and she's feeding off the control right now. Said W would continue 'controlling' the situation for as long as she can and I need to put my foot down and start looking out for myself, until she decides she wants to get her snit together too.
Like others have said, for this meeting specifically, I need to stay calm, collected, but I need to stop letting her have all the cards at play. Instead of comments like "What would it take for you to consider living under the same roof again while we work through this?"... She recommends "I statements", not rude ones, but just solid "I statements".
"I need to find stable ground for myself since you've decided to leave our marriage." "I will be sleeping at home from now on in order to provide myself the stability I need to gather myself and grow into the better person I want to be." ...I'm not kicking her out, I'm just saying, 'I'm no longer going to work on your schedule. I'm no longer going to allow you to control this situation 100%'.
She suggested I put $2k into the joint checking and tell her I've moved all my money into a separate account, and that she can spend that money left in the joint checking however she'd like. (hiring an attorney to file). but most importantly, to make it clear that since she's decided to quit on the relationship, we are no longer in this 'together', and I'll be taking care of myself from now on.
Not totally different, but certainly very different from the advice that the DB coach has suggested. She also said that a public, very busy, coffee shop is not the time nor place to have a discussion about our assets and divorce process. I should listen to anything she wants to say about it, but when it comes to be my turn just say "I just wanted to meet and see how you are doing because I care about you and well-being. I don't think this is the proper time to talk about assets/debts/money for your divorce."
My mantra from DB coach was "I do not think divorce is the solution, but I respect you and if that's what you choose, then I will let you go". to something more like "I care for you, and I want nothing but for you to be happy, and I will not stand in your way of what you want." Similar, but different. I have two hours before our meeting. I'm feeling pretty good about things now, and during the conversation I was antsy that - well, what if she takes the money and files... I actually think I'm okay with that now. I'm moving on because the person she is right now, is not the person I want to be married to. She has a lot to work on for herself, and if she's not willing, then I'm not interested. It's hard to drop the feelings of what a great thing we once had, but truth is, we both aren't those people anymore and if D is what she wants, I shall give it to her. But I'm going back to my house, and I'm taking care of myself first.
She said a lot of times when it's all about the W controlling everything and thinking she has the higher-hand, it's a shell-shock when the LBS turns around and says, "okay, you want the divorce? I've put $2k into the joint checking, you can spend it however you want. I've cancelled all joint credit, I transferred the billing of your cell phone bill into your name, you need to go to AT&T and sign the papers within 7 days or it will be shut off, and you'll need to find auto insurance before yours is set to expire.". She said more times than not, the W will not use the money to file, but to re-evaluate the situation.
She did say tho, that if I'm not ready for the divorce, I should hold off a little longer, but from what she knows, and what she's seen in the past, this is a win-win for me. She either steps back and looks at the situation from new eyes, or she runs away from her problems (like she always has), and I avoid any further 'bad patterns' I've had to deal with in being with her, and we both live on to find something happier/better in the future.
This is obviously a much more "hard ball" approach to the situation that the DB coaches tend to be against. I'm still undecided on how to handle the actual meeting in 2 hours. I need to have a full night/day at home to gather all legal documents, statements, etc, and change my address to the POBOX I have for my business, before I pull and REAL hard-ball stunts. I think I'll just take the meeting and when she asks why I don't have any papers, notes, etc, just be honest and tell her that I just wanted to see her and ask her how she's doing. And when she asks about any assets tell her I do not plan to talk about anything like that in a public place such as a busy coffee shop, but I'm here if she wants to let me know what she's thinking.
I understand that this meeting has you very nervous and afraid that you will say/do the "wrong" thing and blow everything forever, but its just a meeting in a coffee shop right now. I feel that "hardball" isn't quite necessary yet and you're fear is driving you to act on a future that hasn't happened yet. Once again, slow down and breathe.
"I think I'll just take the meeting and when she asks why I don't have any papers, notes, etc, just be honest and tell her that I just wanted to see her and ask her how she's doing. And when she asks about any assets tell her I do not plan to talk about anything like that in a public place such as a busy coffee shop, but I'm here if she wants to let me know what she's thinking."
Stick to this^^^ for right now. Just listen and validate. All of the other stuff, the "hardball tactics", can wait and be done in due time. The idea is for you to listen and act as if it isn't really breaking your heart or worrying you right now. Why would she ask about you not having any notes, papers, etc? Did I miss the part about this being a mediation or business meeting? Relax a bit and let her run the show with a half smile on your face. Sit back and relax. Detach and observe her. I bet the half smile and validation will be a 180 and illicit an interesting reaction.
By the way, if you are normally wordy...validating can be more profound if it is simple. Listen and say, "I hear you" or "hmmm. I think I understand." Even repeat a small phrase and ask her to clarify something, but be brief. Remember, you are agreeing with her feelings and letting her own them as feelings. Don't defend against her feelings, they are hers to feel...even if you don't agree. DBing is NOT about proving you are right.And often times those who "run the show" are so aggressive and/or controlling due to their insecurity and feelings of NOT being in control.
Hand it over and watch and listen quietly, bemused and in control through your stillness and detachment from her behavior.
Thank you cil, You're right in my worry of "one bad things ruins it forever". I need to get it through my thick skull that this is, in fact, a meeting in a coffee shop... and only the FIRST of probably many many more meetings regarding our sitch.
You did miss something, or I neglected to provide full details, but to HER, this is a meeting to discuss assets, debts, financial responsibility, etc, prior to getting lawyers involved. She thinks we should be able to settle our "asset" differences without the mediation of a lawyer involved to save costs. So when she said "lets meet to talk about XYZ, because we should be able to talk to one another about these things without lawyers present." My response was "I agree with you, we should be able to have calm conversation with one another without being angry and raging about something. I'd be happy to meet with you for a cup of coffee."
So I agreed to meet, but didn't necessarily tell her I'm going to be providing any details or suggestions on her decision of D. We have different goals and expectations from the meeting. She wants to divide assets/property/debts/etc, I just want to check in and see her and ask how she's doing. I've always been the one to handle finances and "adult responsibilities" like budgetting, knowing what comes in, what goes out, etc. I'll actually be impressed if she shows up prepared for once, as she's always been clueless about preparation for pretty much anything. Hell, you could even say its a 180 on her part, which I'd be more than happy to see.
Regardless of outcome, I'm going to keep in my mind that I'm just happy to see her, and I hoping she's doing well. Stay calm, stay positive, stay involved, but don't take over the conversation. Make things comfortable and just remember that this is a blessing to be around one another for a change.
I'm hoping it goes well for you, or at least just stays calm. Practice makes perfect and, even if this time doesn't feel right, DBing will get you through to a "next time". I can't even count how many times I've thought I blew it, but didn't give up. Still, even with D process happening, I'm not giving up.
I've always handled everything in our house including finances. Did everything so he could just concentrate on work, even when I went back to work once the kids were older. It has amazed me to see how little he knew and was prepared for our first mediation. My way of dealing with that? I make little to no effort to do things for him unless he asks, and if he doesn't do what he should, I let it go. I told him I would work my a$s off to save our marriage, but if he wanted to end it, then I guess I wouldn't fight him. But I would not effort it. Not in the least.
I will make sure it is a fair "business transaction", but nothing more. I'm not out to hurt him (still love him) nor am I going to allow his lack of knowledge about how this affects my life play a part in leaving me without resources. What I mean is, for example, he called our insurance person to start procedures to split our vehicle insurance (my car, his cars). They called and emailed me because our home email and phone were on record and he didn't give them a different phone or email. I spoke to the agent, got the quotes and relayed the info to H. He has yet to follow up on splitting the vehicles.I'm not taking care of this. I don't want it.
On the other hand, he wanted to give me the house in the D. I can't afford the payments, the maintenance, and its too big for just me. He told me I could sell it and I said no, we will sell it together (I couldn't afford to sell it on my own even!) then D after. He has come out to chop up a few trees and show me how to start our lawnmower (it has a trick to it)and promised to pay for repairs. That's it.I got the agent, painted, patched, hired a contractor to fix a patio cover, and fixed appliances. I moved his things downstairs. I packed up other "stuff" to get rid of clutter so it shows well. It has sold (within a week).That was effort to protect me, but not for the purpose of moving forward the D. I still won't effort that.
If I were you, I wouldn't do anything to help her split assets unless she specifically asks. Don't effort the destruction of your M if you are DBing. If she asks for, say, what your assets are, give her a list. But that's it. If she wants to know how much the house is worth, tell her to find an agent to value it. That's her job.
Just my 2 cents.
Alright, so, I'm "home" and as far as the meeting with my W went, some things went completely according to plan, others were strayed away from my plan of how I wanted it to go, but all in all, it was a Pleasant meeting. She showed up with a folder full of papers, and even place an 'extra' legal pad and pen in front of me when she realized I didn't have anything. I told her no thanks, and told her I wasn't here to discuss property division, assets, or debts. She looked confused and said "thats why we are meeting, right?" and I replied, "that's why you wanted to meet, I actually only agreed to meet to see you, have some conversation, and see how you were doing. And she started crying. It wasn't 5 minutes in and she said, 'we shouldn't have picked this place to do this.'
There were tears on her part, laughter on both parts. Joking. etc. It was a bitter sweet meeting. I took my plan of "be calm, listen, don't involve yourself in asset talk, relationship talk, etc", and combined it with the "stand your ground" input from my other coach, but as kindly as possible. I told her I wasn't here to talk assets and property, but just to be here, and be present for her. A few things she wouldn't let go, and about the house, I told her, "The house is something I view as solid ground for me to grow as a person and use as a stable ground for bettering myself as I work through this. I will not be selling, or leaving the house, and I plan to stay there from this moment on. You're welcome to come and go, but I will be there." (eventually there will be a date/timeline on the "come and go", but for now, this was good.) I thought I'd get anger thrown back at me, but she just went to the legal pad and under my name wrote "house." I couldn't believe it. She still expects her "half" to be returned in some form or another, but my attorney said she has no legal ground for that... premarital house, 2 yr marriage, in my name the whole time. The car conversation went about the same way, but told her she'll keep the car, and takeover payments, including full-coverage insurance, which total about 70% of her income. She just mumbled "I need a new job."... and we moved on.
She started naming off random knickknacks and materialistic things in the house, and I told her, I don't care. Just show up, take what you want that's not of "value", and whatever is left will be considered mine. The process of naming things off, and talking about them, was really starting to get to her, and she was crying a lot, so it was just "easier" to not talk about things individually. She was happy to 'not talk' about things, and have a simpler approach of "come get what you want." but she said she wouldn't take anything without telling/asking me first.
There were several times where our MR came up. She mentioned several times that this is probably going to be her biggest regret of her entire life, but she just doesn't see us being happy together. I validated her, empathized, and stopped there. My reaction to these comments usually led to raw emotions, crying, smiling, but almost always led to more questioning and I would respond, I'm not here to talk about our M/R. I'm just here to see her, etc etc. She would agg on, saying things like "I just don't think we would be happy, why do you think we should even consider a future." and my response was usually something like, "Our future isn't what is I'm here to discuss" and she's agg on more, "<Name>, I'm asking you, please tell me why..." I finally broke my plan and said, "I don't think that divorce is the right option for us, or anyone for that matter. There are reasons that marriages work, marriage don't work, and a once broken marriage can turn out to be better than any marriage that's never experienced hard times. And I'm not here to convince you, I'm just saying that happiness is something that can be achieved for anyone if you believe in yourself and what you're trying to accomplish." (These are the types of things she lives by, her mantra, it hit her pretty hard, but I could tell it was well received, even though it was out of plan).
The 'meeting' was filled with laughter, tears, 'business', and a little bit of everything else. There were several moments that I felt she wanted to just tell me how great everything could be, and outside of the one 'rant' above, I resisted because I didn't want to seem desperate, begging, etc. I just told her that I've made my decision on where I stand and what I'm doing, and it's up to her to choose her future, and I won't stand in her way.
There were a lot of emotions building up towards the end, and I wanted to it to end pleasantly, so I was first to suggest that maybe we should continue this another time when she's ready to talk again. She agreed and we departed. I did walk her to the car, and shared a big hug before she slid into the seat.
I can't say this went perfectly, but I definitely feel like this was a good meeting. She showed many signs of doubt, fear, worry, but nothing in her voice/tone/actions the entire meeting screamed to me that she's dying to get out of the marriage. Like you said, cil, these battles aren't won or lost during one small meeting like this, and this will probably just be the first of many many more. But if my feelings on how this one went are real, then I'm going to mark this one up as a small win for me.
There's something that is making me want to text her tonight and just say it was nice to see ya, hope your okay, etc. But I understand that a little distance goes a long way, and this is going to be a long road, so I'm holding off on any further texts...
Thank you everyone for your support and advice throughout this. I honestly couldn't be handling this the way I am without you all.
Overall, the meeting lasted about an hour. There were times where I could genuinely tell she was dropping her defenses, and softening a bit, and struggling to keep a seriousness about her reason for being there. It could be optimism, but I really felt that at times, there were glimpses of that partnership we used to have with one another. There was even talk of going to eat dinner afterwards, but I think we both wanted things to end on a good note, and know that our time should be limited so it was mutually declined. I'm back in my house, and it's known that I plan on staying here, and that didn't cause the outrage that I originally thought would come of it. I still have a lot on my mind, but hoping to sleep well tonight.
I woke up today feeling good about things, but can't say I didn't wish I would've woke up next to my W. As stated in above two posts, things went well at our first 'D' meeting, and I'm now staying at my house from here on out, that only means that she will not be staying there though, and will be moving out to her parents for good. At least that's the plan for now. She saw a 'better' side of me, but no way she's convinced that I'm safe for her to come back to. I still have more work to do on myself, I have time, I have to stay focused.
betterm,
I think you handled things well. Keep it up. She needs to feel the reality of the separation and how difficult things will be without you.
Sounds like it went well (there is no "perfect" in emotionally tied situations).
Keep up the quiet strength through this. It seems really selfish sometimes to actually practice the "focus on you" part of DBing. We have been in a relationship where you are supposed to be half of a whole...giving up some of your wants and needs and being unselfish. Its a hard transition and guilt adds to the already present pain. But it is necessary to get through this...one way or another.
In my case, 26 years of being selfless (but still "wanting" while losing sight of what was wanted) created a co-dependence that I'm still trying to break. My H felt the unhappiness that I didn't even recognize in myself and misinterpreted it as me not liking him or him being the cause. It slowly killed his feelings for me. You are ahead of the game there, actually. Focus on you. Allow yourself to think of what you want and need and how to get it. Picture it during quiet times. Don't picture S. Just you. She will sense that shift when she sees you.
I have found that the best responses I get from H are when I don't call or text (unfortunately we are dealing with the sale of our house so I'm sometimes forced to) and then I get surprise calls from him. But when I call, especially on work days, I do not get a good response. It is seen as pursuit or pressure. So, yeah. DB methods? They make sense, just not to our emotional minds.
Good on you for not immediately texting when you got home. Give her time to digest your meeting. Put some distance in your contact. Try not to allow your emotions to take over your progress. Follow the 37 "rules" or guidlines. You can do this.
Yeah, It was hard NOT to text because I truly do feel empathy for what she's going through. And I feel like there is more to her decision than what she's come forward to me with. (she still hasn't admitted to the EA from about 6-7 weeks ago - which I believe has now been stopped on her behalf - he still texts, she never responds - phone bill records show). On top of "us", her grandfather passed away recently, and he was the rock that held that side of the family together. Her aunt was just hospitalized last week, and her dad is losing his job soon... there is just a lot going on with her and I really do just want to be there for her if she needs anything... but it's back and forth. emotions vs mentalities battle all day long.
Just curious, I love the info on DB, and I'm also using a second coach for a 'second opinion'... she the 'hard-baller'... but i was wondering if anyone has ever tried these online programs about saving marriage before? Are they junk/scam? I don't know much about... but for only $50, i was thinking about buying to see what they were really all about.
Any thoughts?
Seems like recompiled articles that are scattered all over the web, but anyone found these useful in the past?
I dunno, I'm assessing other options as I've read most of the DB material and recommended books already.
I've yet to order the KLA audioset, but not sure if it's as applicable to me right now.
I have bought the ... Good information on there. My take is that these type of tools would be used when you are in the piecing stage and both S's are willing to set goals as a couple. IMHO.
DBing is for you!!! Not to so save your marriage. I've been following your thread and you are making this completely about your marriage and W.
DBing is about becoming the best you and detaching so that regardless of what happens you will be ok
Yes. It will hopefully give you a chance to save your marriage, but that is not what it's designed to do
Trust me I know that is a lot easier said then done. My first stint here I was floundering like crazy. Pursuing, complimented, all the above. It wasn't to I was able to really detach that my situation changed.
This time around I'm still having trouble doing that, but I'm way ahead of the curb because I know what works and what doesn't
Just focus on being the best you right now! You CAN NOT control what she thinks or does
You're happiness doesn't come from her. It comes from you!!
Are they junk/scam? I don't know much about Lee Baucom or Amy Waterman, but for only $50, i was thinking about buying to see what they were really all about.
betterm,
I don't think they're a scam, but I think most of them aren't worth the price they're charging.
DBing is for you!!! Not to so save your marriage. I've been following your thread and you are making this completely about your marriage and W.
Thanks for the advice, and I know I'm guilty of starting this process with the M in mind, but I'm slowly shifting my train of thought to focus on me, and let the M either work itself out, or let it be known she's the fool for leaving someone who is such an awesome kick-@ss guy! haha.
Honestly, when the bomb dropped, I was in panic mode, crisis mode, and all I could think about was what I could do to save the marriage. But with the help of coaches, counselors, the community (you all), I'm realizing this isn't really about saving a M, but becoming the best you can be. A lot of us get tied up with the everyday annoyances and lose ourselves in the process. I'm currently working on finding my true authenticity of who I was, who I am, and making slight shifts from what flaws I can find so that I can be the best authentic version of myself. Thank you.
doodler & ciluzen, where are your threads? I'd like to read up if you don't mind me asking.
Sounds like it went well (there is no "perfect" in emotionally tied situations).
Good on you for not immediately texting when you got home. Give her time to digest your meeting. Put some distance in your contact. Try not to allow your emotions to take over your progress. Follow the 37 "rules" or guidlines. You can do this.
My next things to consider, now that she's accepted to her "moving out" (even if house wasn't in my name, it only makes sense due to animal care, house care, etc, that I be the one to stay there), When, or how long to wait, before I start transferring "billing responsibilities" of things that are "hers" out of my name. ie, her cell phone is under my name, but not my plan (work pays for mine). Once I go to AT&T i can say she has 7 days or something to accept billing responsibilities before the line is terminated. I don't want to rush anything, and I don't want to 'make anything easy on her' to push for the D, but should this be a proactive move on my part, or wait until she requests that I do such tasks? If I make the move, it puts her it out there that, "okay, I'm ready to move forward, lets go", and (per coaching), will probably force her into some deep thinking about the decision and how "real" things are about to get.
She is losing 85% of her income, She is losing the house, the animals, etc etc. Should I let her come to terms on that stuff on her own, or do I take the initiative and say, okay, here ya go!
betterm,
The link to my current thread is below. There's nothing in the current thread, but it does have the link to my previous thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...641#Post2678641
She just text me, "the house isn't in my name, is it?"
I bet she called the attorney back after our talk last night.
I completely understand panic mode! lol
You didn't know any better. Everything your gut told you was to fight for marriage no matter what. Beg, plead, do all the things you think she would want to hear. Problem is that is exactly what she doesn't want to hear
I did all the same things right away the first time around.
This time I even flat out told her, if you want to dissolve the marriage I will not beg or plead. It won't be like last time. So immediately there wasn't this cat and mouse game.
She knows where I stand. Yes, she knows I want to work on marriage and that I would like it to work out. But I will not lose my self respect in order to do so
Always keep that in mind!! Respect yourself. DO NOT BE A DOOR MAT
I don't want to rush anything, and I don't want to 'make anything easy on her' to push for the D, but should this be a proactive move on my part, or wait until she requests that I do such tasks? If I make the move, it puts her it out there that, "okay, I'm ready to move forward, lets go", and (per coaching), will probably force her into some deep thinking about the decision and how "real" things are about to get.
betterm,
Knowing what I know now, I'd go with the coach's recommendation to help her toward her goal. That doesn't mean that you have to file for divorce, but you can be supportive of her moving out and filing.
I eventually (waited far too long) realized that all of my delaying tactics were seen by my wife as pursuing. So, even though she was already preparing to move out, I gave her a gentle push out the door earlier than she'd planned. She later told me that I essentially said, "get the f*ck out." I never said that and I didn't think I sounded like that, but that's how it was perceived. Anyway, as of now, I think that was the right thing to do.
The faster you help your wife toward her goals the faster she'll begin to realize her fantasy world doesn't reconcile with reality.
betterm,
Knowing what I know now, I'd go with the coach's recommendation to help her toward her goal. That doesn't mean that you have to file for divorce, but you can be supportive of her moving out and filing.
The faster you help your wife toward her goals the faster she'll begin to realize her fantasy world doesn't reconcile with reality.
I'm not going to say coach A is more helpful than coach B, but one is very soft and subtle, and the other resouce coach is very much as you put it above. "She asked for it, she shall receive, right NOW!" mentality. Knowing my W and her own issues, the hand-stance seems like the way to go, but I'm still teetering between the two a bit.
betterm,
I understand; amidst all of the advice, it's difficult to know what's best. And, in reality, it may not matter much; both paths may ultimately lead to the same result.
I wish I could give you something more definitive, but you probably already know which coach's advice you prefer. Let that be your guide.
Betterm, you can only do what you think is best. You will make a mistake every day, many mistakes. Just learn from it and don't do it again.
Hey, Betterm. My thread is on MLS. I've been around since October, since my H moved out. If you look back that far, you can see panic mode from me. It's interesting to watch other'side transform on the boards here. That ability to watch our growth in itself is a lifesaver.
Hmm, a change already... We both agreed yesterday I'd stay at the house. Today, two texts from her regarding her name being on the house/mortgage (it's not), and second one saying 'remind me again why I wasn't on there?" It's because we could only get the approval with me...
I didn't respond for an hour or so and in came the third one... 'I'm not going to move out yet, Things are too crazy right now and things seem rushed. We need to still alternate nights at the house. That Ok?"
Well, No it's not, I haven't responded yet, and she gets off work in about 20 minutes and doesn't expect I'd been working from home today. It'll be a surprise for her to see my car here, but I'm still conflicted about how to respond to her.
I want to say, "I get that this is hard and seems rushed, but under the circimstances, I will be staying here every night. I will not be in your way if you choose to be here too. But I am not okay with alternating nights anymore"... thoughts?
Sounds good. Get a good tone around it. Practice it and don't back down. Show her man determined to stand up for himself and his values.
Stay in the house.
A) Your name is on the deed.
B) You are not "leaving", in all ways.
C) You only control what you CAN control. You can control where you stay and when with your own house. Focus on you and what you want. She can only do what you allow in this situation. What do YOU want?
betterm,
I really hate giving advice because my state of mind is different now that my wife has moved out. So, I'll tell you what I'd do from my perspective (and current mindset). If my wife asked for alternating nights, I wouldn't just say "NO!" to that proposition, I'd go out and buy some boxes and packing tape and tell her she has one day to gather what she needs and get out. To back it up, I'd probably have some of the boxes packed.
Take that for what it's worth. It's not advice, I'm just sayin'. I'm sure a DB coach wouldn't tell you to do that. But, if she thinks she can get you to switch nights with her at the house, then she thinks she's got you by the balls. (That pisses doodler off.)
I'll shut-up now...
Wait, are you co-parenting a house? Nope. Everyone here says don't go. I get it. But if that's the only way to drop the rope, then do it! Someone has to go, for now, not alternatively.
I understand where you are coming from, DDJ. However Betterm's name is the only one on the papers, apparently. When trying to focus on yourself and detach (drop the rope), isn't it better to make it easier on yourself and not worry so much about the comfort of the WS? She is the one leaving; let her leave. His house, his boundaries. If it is hard on her, it is through her choices. Having to find another couch to sleep on is a consequence of leaving rather than working on M.
If he chooses to "have mercy" and let her stay, that is up to him. I wish you the strength to detach, GAL, and keep up the DBing, Betterm, while she is there if you choose this. It will be very difficult. But no, don't make things easier on her just because she asks, as long as she is adamant about giving up rather than working it out. That's like giving a 4 year old the candy she's crying for just to make her be quiet. You're creating a bigger problem in the future by enabling the behavior.
Wait, are you co-parenting a house? Nope. Everyone here says don't go. I get it. But if that's the only way to drop the rope, then do it! Someone has to go, for now, not alternatively.
Co-Parenting? I wouldn't say that. The house is in my name only, and is premarriage property so its mine only if she files D. We have no children. only pets, which is just seen as property through the courts eyes, not living beings.
She's chosen to leave, she's said "structured separation until we start marriage counseling". She shows up to one session, then says she's not going back and she wants a D, but expects to still keep the "structured separation" on the house rules. On top of that "co-parenting" would mean she would actually have to take responsibility for things around here. Dishes, laundry, vacuum, etc. Nope. I'm gone for 3 days, come home to a house that looks like several tornadoes flew through. I clean up the "common areas" and places I need for me while I'm here. And the process repeats. She's feeding off the power of knowing she's got me here to take care of her dirty work, but yet she wants to come and stay 2-3 nights alternately so she can: 1) see the animals we both love so dearly (they are not allowed at her parents, and 2) Get away from her parents.
While we've been together, 'mom and dad' have caused the most stress to her than anyone else in the world. Now that they know she's hurting, they're making it work, but she can only handle a few days at a time. If she wants the D, She gets to live with the consequences is how I see it.
Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "drop the rope", but she's "done", the "damage is done", its "irreparable", and "she wants a D". So, that's the sitch. Do you still stand by what you said above? I'm not saying your wrong, but if you aren't, I'd like to hear a little more reasoning on why my thoughts are wrong so I can better understand.
thank you.
Along with my last post... Here's what happened today. She knew from our conversation last night that she wanted to have about dividing assets, that I was staying at the house. Not only after the D, but from here on out, and she said she'd move out. I told her I need stable ground to grow through this mess whether she's in or out, and I'll be at 'my' house because I can't sleep well on other couches and random beds.
Today I worked from home and I guess when she saw my car she turned away and never came in the driveway. She texted me, "hey my name isn't on the house, right?" "whyd we do that again, can you remind me?" then about an hour later after no response "oh hey, I don't I want to move out yet, everything is just so crazy, and I feel like its all rushed, I'd like to sleep at our home tonight, that ok?"
I never responded, she finally called and I talked to her about a stray pup I picked up and she said she'd help me post it online and find owner. Then she had class for the next hour. After class, she texted "I'd like to sleep at home tonight, okay? ... our home".
I said "I never said you couldn't sleep here, you're the one that has chosen to leave this relationship. I will be here, and I haven't kicked you out, you've left."
That promptd the response I expected... "You can do that, that's not fair, that's my house too". then when I started to respond, she said "I'll just call you back!"
...and I wasn't 'mean', or 'harsh' in my tone. I was soft, direct. And she's PISSED!
in my eyes, I don't any "tug of war" going on. She just comes for what she wants (animals and to get away from 'rents) and then goes back to parents when she's had a break and doesn't want to do responsibilities around the house.
Water off a duck's back...
Her emotional reaction does nothing to you. Let it slide. You're response was good. Just remember. Short and to the point. You don't need to explain your actions, Quietly strong. "You may sleep here. I will be in the master bedroom." If you have a guest room, tell her that's where she may sleep. If not, hand her some sheets and let her make a bed on the couch. Pleasantly. She is your "guest" now until she chooses to prove she is going to work on the marriage. But not a guest you need to bend over backwards to do anything for. She fired you as a spouse.
I'm sitting out back, grilling some chicken and drinking a cold beer. I'm just waiting for something crazy to happen... like cops... :\
Yep, and the cops will show up and say, "Them is some mighty big chicken legs."
Hey,
Stand your ground on this one. Don't budge an inch.
Your doing the right thing looking out for you. You can do this.
"this guy" doesn't 'skip leg day'!
Well, hopefully all you get is a great meal and an easy mind. Maybe "cops" will happen somewhere else in the neighborhood and you'll get a show with that meal.
Well, kind of expected, no call back, no show, no text... I did enjoy my dinner though. Who knows what's she'll think of the situation tomorrow. Maybe good, maybe bad, maybe it's the one thing that actually pushes her to file for D. Who knows.
I am still curious to hear what DDJ has to say about the comment and my response. I'm wondering if DDJ didn't know the whole story, of if he/she still thinks it's a bad idea to "drop the rope" and continue on with the separation on the house. DDJ?
betterm,
I still say this whole thing sounds suspicious. You were grilling (supposedly chicken) and drinking beer, your wife never shows up, there's talk of cops...
I think DDJ is going on a weekend vacation so he may be out of pocket all weekend.
I can't tell if you're joking or not. Suspicious? I did grill out but since W felt she wasn't being 'allowed' in her house... people do crazy things when they're raging.
betterm,
I'm sorry, I was joking. I should've added a smiley face. I don't think you'd grill your wife; mostly because you'd probably have to get a bigger grill (joking again - sorry again).
Actually, when you mentioned grilling it reminded me of the movie "Fried Green Tomatoes." You'd have to see it to understand.
I hope you got good night's sleep despite your wife not returning home.
Got it! Ha! Sometimes it's hard to translate raw text to emphasized meaning. She's going to be hitting me hard with wanting to stay there tonight I know. I have a feeling it's going to be like this for a while.
betterm,
Yep, with regard to hitting you hard, I don't know about your wife, but mine knows all of my buttons and she pushes all of them at once. She's good. I constantly remind myself that have to validate. And, by the way, if you say to your wife, "yes, I understand that you're an @sshole" that's not a good validation.
Yep, first text of the day is her explaining that allowing her to stay there is the 'right thing to do', and she can't be in the house with me together. I feel like she's right, and I do want her to see the pets, but...
She wants to stay at the house tonight, and "can't" if I'm there... I don't know what to think.
Um. I think you know what to think but you're afraid of being the "bad guy". Just the fact that this disturbs you proves that you are not.
Are you really going to let someone who has fired you as a spouse tell you what is "the right thing to do"? Are you then going to clean up her mess after she leaves? Your call, but is that strong and steady?
She has her parents' place. She isn't without resources. So it isn't comfortable for her? She needs a break? She misses the pets? Consequences for her choices. She is trying to use you right now. Are you going to allow that? If you think that you can nice her back to working on M, I can pretty much asure you that it will have the opposite effect. She will not have any respect for you. You are a man. Stand your ground. Your house. She left. Don't give the child the candy because she's crying for it because the tears make you feel bad for her. You'll just be cleaning sticky chocolate off of the car seats as a reward. And next time she cry for a whole box of it.
Re-read Sandi's rules and her threads on mr. Nice guy (doormat). Be strong.
betterm,
What ciluzen said!
ciluzen,
I don't know what kind of guy would leave a straight-talking woman like you, but he's got to be freaking crazy.
She's texting only right now. Deciding if I should text back "I can see how you'd want to spend time with the animals, but my view on the "right thing to do" is much different than yours"... Or do I just wait it out until she finally calls 3 times in a row til I answer?
betterm,
In my opinion, this situation is hard to screw-up. As long as you stay in the house, whether you text her or let her call three times doesn't really matter, the outcome will be the same.
I'd recommend not responding at all. When she comes to the house you can talk to her. But, I don't know if that's a good approach so certainly get some other input.
I think you know what to do. Don't be afraid to do it now. Be firm. This is on her not you
I haven't seen the articles on "doormat" from sandi, anyone have a link? I saw the 37 rules and the detaching, but no 'doormat'...
In my saying 'Its obvious you and I have differences of opinion on "what is the right thing to do" in our situation."...
It is okay for her to know that I would rather work on our M for the future, but idea is to portray it in a way that shows I'm good and moving along with or without her, right?
t is okay for her to know that I would rather work on our M for the future, but idea is to portray it in a way that shows I'm good and moving along with or without her, right?
betterm,
Yes, I don't think there's any problem with letting her know that you want the marriage to work and that you're willing to do what you need to do to make that happen, but she has to understand that certain things are unacceptable (boundaries) and having you move out, even temporarily, is one of those things that's unacceptable.
She texted again and said 'i really don't want to have to get lawyers involved to straighten out our living situation.'
I thought yesterday after the sudden "I don't want to move out yet" after she remembered her name wasn't on the house, that she'd been talking to a lawyer about the situation and he told her, DONT MOVE OUT!...
However, I'm not sure she has been now, as getting lawyers involved with our living situation probably wouldn't help her as its in my name. Kinda confusing, but okay.
She's blowing me up right now about 'ignoring'. (I'm at work, it happens.) I'll respond back via text with my comment above and see how she takes it.
betterm,
She's brazen. Stand your ground. There's nothing a lawyer can do to straighten out your living situation.
I'm not an expert on this DB stuff, and I feel like I've been providing too much input without others chiming-in, but it sounds like it's a good time to think about protecting yourself. I don't mean physically, I mean bank accounts, changing locks on doors and making sure that you're happy and healthy. I don't think reconciliation is anywhere on her radar screen right now.
I know it's tough for you right now, but take care of yourself.
Definitely sounds like she's flailing around trying different tactics to get you to cave in to what she is asking for. Great job staying put!
I'm at work so I'll be brief. You should maybe get a quick free consult with a L about the house sitch. Laws are different state to state. Always good to arm yourself with knowledge.
I might be too late on the text issue, but it's better if you don't respond to spew and b.s. Don't defend or explain. She probably already knows your feelings on working on M . No need to nag or assume she doesn't.
Thanks, doodler . That guy would be a guy going through MLC. Straight talk does not apply. Listening and validating and moving forward are my best bets there. And being very, very patient.
Do not move out.... I repeat do not move out.. I tell you this from personal experience. IMO you are going to be seen as the bad guy right now regardless what you do.
Limit talk for face to face right now, and I would absolutely not talk about the R right now. Once again MHO
Do not move out.... I repeat do not move out.. I tell you this from personal experience. IMO you are going to be seen as the bad guy right now regardless what you do.
Limit talk for face to face right now, and I would absolutely not talk about the R right now. Once again MHO
limit talk for face to face? Are you implying no texting back and only verbal conversation?
Still haven't called her back. She is about to get off work and text me, I understand if you want to stay at the house another night but I will be staying there tomorrow night. She's flip flopping like crazy...
I would respond and say, "yes I will be staying there tomorrow night as well. It's my house and I intend to stay there every night"
Just make your point clear and don't bring it up again
I would not comment on wanting to make the M work. Just repeat, "You are welcome to stay at the house, but I will be there too."
And Boom goes the dynamite....
I have to run out for a minute, so I'll post update in a few... But wow,
She. Blew. Up!
OK, she's supposed to blow up. Good work. Lol.
As for the dropping the rope. From what I understand it means any support that you offer her. So you pay her bill cos you work at the company, you stop. If the house is in your name, you throw her out.
I'm waiting for the transfer of the house to my name (probably a few months) and once I get the title deed, my WW will not know where she's gonna live.
The key is to not be controlling, don't do things to get a reaction, don't do things to hurt her and give no ultimatums besides you walking out on her.
I guess my understanding of "dropping the rope" is different than yours, DDJ. I believe it is synonymous with detaching. Dropping the rope of emotional attachment to your S. I don't believe anything in DBing is aggressively vindictive or punishing.
okay, so...
She called, I answered, she asked how the dogs were etc etc then asked if I was staying there tonight. I told her I was, and that I was about to leave to go run some errands but wouldn't be gone too long. Her, "I'd like to stay there tomorrow night." Me: "that's fine, I never said you couldn't stay here". Her: "so, are you going to leave? where will you sleep?", Me, "I'm going to sleep here."
then it started. She went on with 'its not fair, you're being a complete dick and you know it, that is my house too, do you really want to spend our money on lawyers to figure out the living situation, on and on and on... I just responded, I hear what you're saying and I can see how you'd think I'm doing this to make things difficult, but all I want is some stability to move forward due to the circumstance. You can come see the pets, you can take the pets, but I am standing alone right now and you don't want me in your future.
then it goes worse. 'you were never in this relationship', 'you never cared, you never loved me', 'if you care about bettering yourself so much, where the Hell was that ambition before, i don't care that your working on you, i want to be able to sleep in my house. tell me after all this time you haven't given a crap about anything,', ...and there was more.
all i did was respond back, validating how i understand how she can feel that way, and i know i've made mistakes and there is nothing i can do about that in hindsight. she went back to the 'not fair' thing and said even though this is HER decision to leave me, it's my fault and i'm the one that did this to us. I validated and said I'm aware of things I've done wrong, and I wish I could'v edone things differently, but I can't, and now you want to leave and all I can do is not stand in your way, but continue working on me.
this was followed with, 'fine, you know what, lets just stay married, is that okay? is that what you want?' I said, eventually i'd like to find myself in a happy marriage, and while I respect your decisions, i am not in agreeance that D is the solution to our problems.
then a whole bunch of yelling and anger, and more references to how i've never been there in the past, but now that she wants me gone i don't have the respect for her to go away.
then she hung up on me...
@Citizen, yes emotional dropping is part of it. I was really referencing the house. Betterm cannot be her friend.
As for your last update betterm, sorry to here. You should always be the one dropping the phone on her. Then you know it was a good call.
More to come... that was a short version.
Please start a new thread
Betterm, that was very well done. I'm going to give you one critique piece, however, that a poster named Zeus gave me early on. There are no "buts" in validation. The buts render your validation useless as validation. "I understand how you can feel this is unfair, but...". See, you just switched from validating and making it sound like you are listening, to telling the person that their feelings don't really matter because what you are saying is more important. That is anger provoking and is just making your wife believe she is making the right decision. I did it at the beginning of this post, even. "Great job, however..." and then told you WHAT YOU DID WRONG. Get it? No one likes to be wrong, especially when pain and emotion are tied together. Distance yourself, try to just leAve the R talk alone for a bit. And read all about validation (other sources) and communication methods. Practice, then you can do face to face later
Betterm, that was very well done. I'm going to give you one critique piece, however, that a poster named Zeus gave me early on. There are no "buts" in validation. The buts render your validation useless as validation. "I understand how you can feel this is unfair, but...". See, you just switched from validating and making it sound like you are listening, to telling the person that their feelings don't really matter because what you are saying is more important. That is anger provoking and is just making your wife believe she is making the right decision. I did it at the beginning of this post, even. "Great job, however..." and then told you WHAT YOU DID WRONG. Get it? No one likes to be wrong, especially when pain and emotion are tied together. Distance yourself, try to just leAve the R talk alone for a bit. And read all about validation (other sources) and communication methods. Practice, then you can do face to face later