This is a continuation of the following thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREADMy W does have a very demanding personality. She did expect me to move out when she suggested a trial separation and completely freaked out on me when I suggested she move out if that's what she wants. I'm sure it's more of the same attitude about the MBR (how dare I, the man, take the MBR from his poor wife). You don't want to sleep in the same bed as me, find somewhere else to sleep. Cadet et al, I have you all to thank for helping me attain that attitude!
So it's my birthday today. W and kids gave me some presents, no card from W. She's invited a few of our friends over for drinks tonight. Feels entirely out of obligation but she has been nice and pleasant today - again probably just because its my birthday.
We were out at a bbq earlier for my sons hockey team and noticed my W is not wearing her wedding ring. I don't think I've ever seen her forget to put it on but I'm going to try and resist asking her about it and wait until tomorrow to see if she is no longer wearing it. If she's not, this is a huge move on her part. In fact, it looks like she is wearing some new clothes today as well but could be from her sister. Again, resisting asking. Will post back tomorrow on the wedding ring. To me, if she has made a decision to not wear her wedding ring it's saying a lot of things (eg. marriage is done, she's back on the market etc). I'll likely have a hard time getting through the evening without asking her about the wedding ring.
So it's my birthday today. W and kids gave me some presents, no card from W.
Feels entirely out of obligation but she has been nice and pleasant today - again probably just because its my birthday.
First off, Happy Birthday!
Secondly, I just had mine recently and spent it alone, while W was away doing her own thing... She did text though, so there's that...
I guess, be happy for what you got, but you're right, don't read into it too much. Tomorrow could be back to the same old, and birthdays only come... well, you know.
It's a little after 8:30am here and I haven't been able to get back to sleep since 4am. Been thinking about my W not wearing her ring. I did not ask her last night but will today when she gets up if she is still not wearing it. She would have put it back on last night had she of forgotten early but she didn't so I'm pretty sure she has removed the ring purposely. That said, I plan to ask her why she isn't wearing her ring. She'll likely give me a vague answer like "I don't want to". Now, before I go down the rabbit hole talking about why she removed her ring without even talking to me about it, I did read an article on the subject and they suggested first thing to do is ask her to put the ring back on "can you please put the ring back on" and see what she says. I think the idea here is, if she removed it to see if I even care I at least show her that it does matter to me. Basically, I need to acknowledge her action - if I don't she may think I don't care. The flip side is, maybe she doesn't care what I think. If she just responds by saying she doesn't want to wear the ring anymore than down the rabbit hole I go to ask why she isn't wearing it and what does that mean (marriage done, she's letting everyone know she is no longer in a committed marriage, she's single etc)??
I'm hopeful she has done this to try and get some sort of reaction out of me and no other reason. I tend to agree with the article in that sitting back and ignoring it would likely create more problems. As time passes she may increasingly think that I really don't care.
She really doesn't care. It does not matter if you care. We know you care, she knows that you care. You can ask, nothing wrong, but know that you're not going to get an answer that you like anyhows.
My WW never came home until 12pm this afternoon. I could ask the questions, but won't like the answers. I've got to put in place every boundary that I can to make sure that her actions cannot hurt me. This includes her words.
I just asked the W why she wasn't wearing her wedding ring and she thankfully had a good answer. She is an RMT (registered massage therapist) and had an all day training class the day before and she had put all her rings into her purse and forgot to put them back on again. I didn't notice but she wasn't wearing any of her other rings either. I wish I had noticed that yesterday before getting myself all worked up. So much for detachment!
All well - doesn't change my situation but at least it hasn't escalated either.
I just asked the W why she wasn't wearing her wedding ring and she thankfully had a good answer. She is an RMT (registered massage therapist) and had an all day training class the day before and she had put all her rings into her purse and forgot to put them back on again. I didn't notice but she wasn't wearing any of her other rings either. I wish I had noticed that yesterday before getting myself all worked up. So much for detachment!
All well - doesn't change my situation but at least it hasn't escalated either.
that's good news to hear, but I would be a little skeptical in that W could be finding excuses to remove the ring. You're probably right in assuming she's being honest, and don't it a priority to keep an eye on it... but just something to keep in mind over the coming weeks. The question is... if you find 1 or 2 more times where she's not wearing ring (I found some girl's night social media pics of my W not wearing hers, and she said "girl's night and no one had them on, which was true), but think ahead about how you are going to handle the issue if you find more occasions where the ring is mission.
I'll keep an eye on it but her response did make sense (and she wasn't stumbling around trying to come up with a story - she just responded with the answer right away and non-defensively).
On a separate note, the W was supposed to call the MC around now to book an appointment for her (she wants to talk to the MC by herself first and then another appointment for the two of us - we had originally had individual sessions with the MC followed by couples sessions since). I initially said sure, see if the MC will talk to you alone if you want. The reason I agreed was that the first time she met the MC on her own she came back with renewed optimism about our marriage (so did I after my first one on one). But, first, I don't think the MC will allow any individual appointments once the couples sessions start (so as to appear not to take sides or keep secrets from each other). Second, whatever it is that she wants to talk to the MC about I want to hear at this point. If she is having a lot of doubts about our marriage, even though it will rip my heart out, I want to know what she is really thinking and where her head is at. I know I'm not doing a great job of detaching. I've had a bad week of emotions but it gets severely compounded when I don't sleep and I've only been getting a few hours sleep each night this past week. And that's when my mind tends to runaway on me. Need something (or someone) to know me out!
knock me out! I'm too tired to even spell correctly.
Hang in there. I started to exercise right before bed time to make myself extra tired so I could sleep. It helped get me to sleep but I would still wake early and just lay there.
Also I think you were right on to ask about the rings. My W did the same thing with thr excuse of feeling pain to wear rings that used to symbolize something. I think she was sending a message to me and OM.
I workout and run almost daily and usually in the evening. I fall asleep no problem (usually) but I wake up anywhere between 3 - 5am almost every morning and then can't get back to sleep. It's hard enough to manage your feelings and emotions when you are properly rested but it's nearly impossible when you're sleep deprived. I have a lot I want to accomplish personally over the next 4 weeks but I need sleep so that I can focus on these things during the day. I've been struggling to study for a big exam since Christmas time but it's been very difficult to stay focused. I've entered a 5k run a month from now as well. The running is the best thing for my pent up emotions - I always feel better after I run.
Anyway, it's my mind racing which is killing me day to day - it completely distracts me and has me thinking the worst of every situation with my W. I'm my own worst enemy at the moment (my W isn't doing anything to make things worse, I am). I need to focus on clearing my head, getting rest and keep studying.
Wish me luck!
Not much to report. Went out and ran 7.5 miles (12kms) last night to try and exhaust myself but still did not get a great sleep. In fact I had more trouble getting to sleep than I usually do - was a little wired. Wasn't thinking about the W or anything related, just could not get to sleep. What do you I have to do to get a good nights sleep!
W called me on Monday to say that a couple friends of ours had called her to invite us over for dinner this coming Friday night (apparently to celebrate my birthday). She asked if I wanted to go, I said sure. I didn't ask her if she wanted to go or not but she would have said she didn't want to go if she felt that way (although she may have felt obligated). W seems to be fine socializing with our friends and me but one on one just walks around ignoring me for the most part. I have no idea what is going through her head. If she just wants time and space (which I am giving her) what's with the coldness?? All seems to come back to the MBR but that is just my assumption, she has not said anything to indicate resentment over the MBR.
How the hell do you break the ice? I don't want to pursue but this is just dragging on and on. We are due for a trip to the MC but my W was supposed to call and arrange it as she wanted to see the MC by herself first. I have not asked her about it as it feels like pursuing as well but we do need to get in and see the MC and find out where her head is at and let the MC ask the questions.
James,
Go see an MD about your sleep problems. You might want to get on an AD. It helped me a lot.
Stop obsessing about the MBR. That is just the symptom. The root cause is your MR with your W. If the problems aren't there, she would join you in the MBR.
Hi James. The time line is very short in the scheme of this board. I've never really seen quick reconciliations and of the few I have seen its closer to a year + if not more.
MC is really pursuing and in my humble opinion can make matters worse if W is not committed to working on the M.
Just my thoughts
Take care. Rd
CWOL,
I really don't want to go on AD's to be honest. I feel depressed some days and anxiety other days but I can usually deal with it by running and sweating it out. I don't think I would be able to function at work on AD's from what other posters have described as well. Besides, I need to deal with the reality of the situation, like it or not. I may talk to the MD about a sleep sedative though - not crazy about taking drugs but do need better sleep.
It's a good point you make and a good reminder, the problem is the MR and she would return to the MBR if things were better.
RD500,
I'll leave the MC session to my W to decide if she wants to go or not and not ask about it. My W has always been open to seeing the MC at least. I think she see's it as a means to either resolve our issues or come to the conclusion that we just aren't meant to be together.
James,
I too resisted AD's for four months, but finally got them and they proved to be very helpful. They help especially for the racing thoughts and mood at night. They don't impact the reality of things but actually make you more aware of the positives of life. My thoughts had been all negative and I could not get away from thinking everything over and over again, what if's, etc. Some AD's do impact your focus, but I'm lucky I don't operate any heavy machinery (unless you count a desktop one!) Sleep sedatives may be worse for that though.
Yes, focus on yourself first, don't worry about the MBR. The bed is big enough for the two of you to sleep in, if she wants it she will come and sleep with you.
Don't put too much hope on MC. It appears a lot of WW use it as a crutch to get out of M. A friend of mine's WW used it as a "safe zone" to declare she is filing D.
James,
Take CWOL's advice and see a doctor about depression (i.e. get an AD). Many ADs address depression and anxiety.
James,
I echo CWOL and doodler on the AD. I to resisted taking them even after my MD prescribed them. Big mistake for me as they take some to kick in as well as sometimes you may need to experiment with a few different ones if they don't work.
Just speak with MD and/or psychiatrist and be open about your desired outcomes. For me I do not want to be on meds long term. They are helping me to accomplish that. I have been on a low dose and with my other efforts and clearer head, I hope to be off them soon as I get stable. I have not taken my anxiety meds for a bit and am feeling better with a low dose of AD.
Each person is different, but if you are struggling more than 2 weeks with depression/ anxiety, speak to your MD. You won't regret it and the healing can begin.
I'll keep it in mind guys and thanks for the advice. My situation hasn't totally hit the fan....yet. No talk of divorce/separation, just not talking much in general so does cause some anxiety but I'm really turning to exercise to burn it out of me. Side benefit is I'm getting in great shape. Works for the most part, I just can't make it out to the gym or out to run every single day but most days I can. Will see how it goes.
James, in reference to your wife's treatment of you, I would say that we lbs are their enemy, and sometimes even for a few seconds at a time the realize that we are not the problem, and I think that makes them mad too. They think we have been holding them back from their happiness for years, they have no faults, and we have many many many.
I'm not a big fan of ADs or most other drugs. Especially for a first solution. I would look for a vitamin, herb or food type that helps with relaxing. Much better for you than drugs.
Ralph88, I was blaming myself for everything early on but have come to realize, while I have my fault/blame in our current situation, my W has her own issues she is dealing with. While she's said she is willing to work on the M, she's never said what her failure is and I don't believe she thinks she has done anything wrong - in her mind it's all me. She's been very introspective of herself in 2016 and building her business. Think she feels resentful having had to rely on me for financial support all of these years (MC suggested something to that effect). I felt a little resentful she wouldn't get out and work more myself as the kids where older and she didn't need be home all day with very little to do. We had been acting resentful towards each for a good number of years by the time my W pulled the plug this past December. I think the problem now becomes will she ever she her part in a M breakdown? If she doesn't, how can I expect her to ever want to work on rebuilding our M. Back in Jan/Feb I felt she was more open to rebuilding the marriage but things have been on a steady decline and now I feel she's just completely disconnected from me emotionally and focusing 100% on herself (maybe she on this forum getting some advice lol).
On a separate note, I find myself adopting her cold attitude around her and I hate that I do that. I just have such a hard time being upbeat and happy around her when she is being cold towards me. At the very least I am saying hi to her every time she comes home or gets up in the morning, she barely acknowledges me. It's difficult to be upbeat and happy when you aren't supposed to be initiating conversation. I find not initiating conversation difficult as well as not talking about what I am doing or where I am going. Normal stuff you would talk about. For instance, I go to the gym almost daily after dinner. I get changed into my workout clothes and leave without saying where I am going - there is no mystery as to where I am going (she isn't wondering). Clearly I'm going to the gym, why not just say I'm going to the gym for a few hours, I'll see you later. Create a little conversation and communication day to day. My W tends to do this when she goes to her gym but not always, but could be her reacting to me not ever telling her where I am going. I guess my point is, we are in marital strife right now, no EA/PA, no talk of divorce (yet) so is the best thing for me to be doing is not communicate with her? I'm not talking about pursuing, that would show weakness on my part for sure, just try and create a little more communication day to day, see if the coldness might lighten up. As her about how things are going with her work, about the training course she has been doing etc. I act completely uninterested based on the 'not initiating conversation' rule but I wonder if I am doing the right thing in my particular circumstances. Perhaps I'm creating a bigger void.
James,
It sounds like you have a true WAW. I think if you talked to a DB coach they'd tell you to keep the lines of communication open. Not relationship talk, but funny quips and "how was your day" kind of stuff.
I assume your wife feels neglected in some way?
Not sure about neglected, I'm a pretty attentive guy for the most part (she never complained of being neglected, taken for granted she has complained about though) but I've turned that off since things have gone down hill trying to make it seem like I'm going on with my life. But, it just doesn't feel right. Not relationship talk, but funny quips and "how was your day" kind of stuff is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm going to start doing this subtly - hopefully it will lighten things up a little between us. My W said she needed time and space but we still live together and not talking at all just creates more heaviness and I need to try and lighten things up a little.
James,
I know what you mean; it's difficult to know what's best with regard to allowing space yet being attentive. There were times when I couldn't do anything right (i.e., it didn't matter what I did, my wife would twist it around on me).
The coach I had reflected much of what the DR book says; set goals, try different things, find out what works and what doesn't work and don't go down cheese-less tunnels.
James,
I read a lot of LBS that are worried and focused on how to conduct conversations with the WAS with DB techniques. They seem to worry that talking to much creates arguements or creates bad R talks. Or on the flip side the LBS worries that if they don't talk to the WAS, that they are being cold or will lose opportunities to draw closer through conversation. But ultimately the LBS seems to over think it all as if their approach will control an outcome.
My thoughts on this are that it takes 2 people to affect any outcome as it relates to this topic.
If you ignore the WAS, and they feel neglected then you are off base.
If you try really hard to have conversations and the WAS does not want to talk then you push them away.
If you try light conversation and the WAS is cold or short with you you feel hurt and react as such.
If the WAS tries to speak with you and you are short or vague , they can get upset or suspicious.
All of these examples are one sided and focus on the LBS trying to control an outcome by useing one approach and missing the big picture.
Communication requires 2 people to be effective. But 1 person can effectively communicate if they are not trying to control an outcome.
This brings me to my point. Detachment is needed.
Detachment is key, because then you can use any approach and not have it hinge on the behavior of the other person. Because when you are detached you accept anything they do or say with out it affecting you. And then because it does not affect you, you can adjust for what works, not for what you feel like is working.
So if you say good morning and you are in a good mood. When you are ignored, it does not change your mood.
If you you are headed out with friends and you are asked where you are going, you can reply in a happy friendly manner that you are going out with friends. And no matter the reaction you do not think about it as you are having a good time with friends.
Also, with detachment it is much more effective to DB, by experimenting and noting what works. You stay out of cheese less tunnels and you become your own person .
You become the person that can be attractive again to the WAS, and you become the person that only a fool will leave. And at that point you will be the person that will accept the de idiom of the fool if need be.
I apologize for the ramble, but it is also for me to remind myself as intent to want to analyze and take a linear controlled, approach which is not beneficial in our situations.
Detach, pay attention to what works, do what you know is right, not what you feel is right.
I am laughing because doodler wrote what I was writing only much more to the point and eloquently.
Well stated doodler
SadHub,
I totally agree with what you said. Your first paragraph really captures how I feel. Good stuff!
One of the strangest things was that after BD, when I asked my WW "How was your day" conversationally, she would always be vague. Later on when I talked to her friend, I found out that she took it as me snooping on her.
It's weird because that was how usually she would open up to me and tell me her problems at work, etc. Her friend told her, well now you've betrayed him, no wonder you feel he's trying to keep tabs on you when he's just asking you how you were today. It's funny how a third party could see things so clearly. There's nothing to snoop if she didn't do anything she should feel guilty for!
SadHub/Doodler - you guys pretty much summed it up. I suck at detachment but will do my best to have no expectations of the communication attempts I put forth. I've gotten used to her saying no to dinner anytime I make it - I just carry on and have at times not even bothered to ask her at this point. She'll usually just say I ate earlier or I'm not hungry right now - I suppose it's her way of saying I don't need you to cook dinner for me. So complicated!
I'm still poking around reading other threads. Not much to report on in my own situation really. W still in the other bedroom but things have been fairly stable/civil, we've been hanging a lot with another couple who are our best friends but the W tends to pair off with her friend and myself with my buddy, not much interaction between the W and I but we have been talking a tiny bit more lately (not about the R, just small chats about work, kids etc). She still can pull out the attitude though. She has not made mention of contacting the MC at all but may be waiting until we have some money to afford another few sessions - things have been tight lately. I did blurt out to our friends something about us planning a week at our cottage again this summer - the couple was excited about it as they had done this with us last year. The W just said can we afford for me to take a week off of work as I work on contract and don't get paid when I don't work. It was a fair question and I just said that perhaps we'll just do a long weekend rather than take the entire week off. I thought for sure the W was going to say something to me later in private that, considering our current situation, I should have talked to her about this before offering up plans for the cottage with our friends but she never did. I suppose that's a good sign. I think she wants to do the week at the cottage but it truly is a money issue for us.
The W has bought a few new sexy tops after I had bought some clothes - funny after she gave me crap but I didn't call her on it. Just said it looked great on her (tried to take the high road).
W has been wearing her rings regularly as well. Will see what the next week or so brings.
My W is really into healing crystals so I was thinking of buying her a small rose quartz crystal (I'll put a description of its meaning after my post). I haven't pursued her at all in months now and was really just thinking of picking this up as small thought for my W that she might appreciate. Perhaps the meaning behind it may be a little heavy but it's all in how you interpret it. It costs $29 bucks so not an expensive gift or anything, just a small thought. I'll be sure to remind myself to have no expectations of her reaction, if any. Am I venturing into pursuing territory here or is a one off small thought like this ok?
Description:
Rose quartz is an excellent heart-healing gemstone. It is a nature remedy that can be used for treating any issue that needs emotional healing. Rose quartz is a pink-colored crystal that carries a very gentle and soothing energy and gives comfort to anyone whose heart has been wounded.
Rose Quartz is known as the “love stone”. It is a stone of universal love and romantic love and is often associated with marriage. It is believed that this stone can help one feel a sense of self-worth and therefore be worthy of love. Rose Quartz is said to emit a peaceful, cooling energy that will restore calm, balance and clarity to the emotions. It is considered excellent for healing and opening the emotional heart so that one may give and receive love. The early Chinese used Rose Quartz to fashion carvings of the Goddess of Peace as the colour was thought to reflect her gentleness and wisdom.
Remedy Benefits of Rose Quartz
Encourages self love
Heals emotional body
Eases heartache
Relieves loneliness
Releases repressed hurts
Promotes forgiveness
Offers inner peace
I wouldn't.
It could easily be construed as both pursuing and judgmental. Not a good combo.
That had crossed my mind. Would probably be better if the crystal was more generally promoting serenity, peacefulness, etc. instead of love, heartache, marriage, forgiveness focused. I'll keep the rose quartz in my back pocket for perhaps some future use! Will see what else I can find that might be more appropriate.
Is there a reason you feel the need to get her a present at all?
Not really. Just feel completely disconnected these days - was thinking a small thought might be nice. If likely to be viewed as pursuing then I won't bother.
James,
Do you believe the crystal stuff (healing etc.) or do you just go along with it because your wife is into it?
Go along with it because my W believes in it. It's her thing.
James,
If that's the case, she probably knows that you think it's silliness (my words - sorry) so she'd know that you're trying to placate her. If you're ever out and about and you see that perfect thing, maybe a chocolate chip cookie, then get it for her. That'll be genuine.
You're probably right - that crystal was too loaded with meanings anyway. Hardly a light 'thought' really.
W and I went to dinner at a friends last night, 3 couples there. Was a fun night but I feel really weird/awkward when we go out like this. My W doesn't have anything to say to me and I feel like it's all so fake the two of us being out together. We do this sort of thing on a weekly basis with another couple who are our best friends and they don't know anything about what is going on with us. My W seems fine and happy laughing having a great time and I'm putting up a strong front and enjoying myself but inside I'm all torn apart. At first I was thinking well at least she is open to us doing things together but it's not like we talk at all. I overheard her talking to one of our friends last night about the new part-time position she is starting next week and a few other important things that I know nothing about. I'm not exactly telling my W everything that is going on with me either but frankly there is nothing all that interesting or important going on with me right now anyway. It's just all so difficult to manage your feelings and emotions when the one you love is so completely disinterested in you. She used to show small signs of the feelings she had for me but again, since she moved into the other room she has been cold and completely disconnected from me. Would love to know what she's thinking these days.
James are you doing any GAL'ing or working on yourself, etc. ? Read books like 5 Love Languages, or anything like that?
I go to the gym almost daily and when I don't I go out and run for an hour or longer. That helps me a lot - seems to help sweat out the stress and anxiety. I am still studying for an exam I have to take but not much. My time gets filled in with the kids sports otherwise - I coach one of my kids softball team. My W has pulled back from feeling obligated to go to the kids sports games etc these days - focusing more on herself and her needs it would seem. If she doesn't have anything else on the go or it's not early in the morning (she's not a morning person) she will go to the games but that seems to be about it these days.
I would like to get out and GAL a lot more but this exam has been weighing on me for months as I keep pushing it back as I've had a difficult time focusing on studying. I need to get this done and out of the way but it requires me sitting in a room studying for weeks on end and that is the exact opposite of what I feel like doing right now. It doesn't leave any time for reading any other books (5 Love Languages etc) either unfortunately (I wish I did have more time). I also need to move into a better paying job to relieve some of the financial stress around here - this is also weighing on me. But, I just paid to have my resume professionally re-written so hoping that will help.
I find my mind wanders into the negative territory too often. I allow the current circumstances to cause me anxiety and that really gets to me. I think too much about my W and what she is doing and I know this isn't healthy and I try and snap myself out of it. Sometimes I can, other times not so much. But, she is on my mind all of the time these days and I need to figure out a way of removing her from my thoughts when I'm trying to work, studying, with the kids etc. I've really struggled with detachment but believe this is the key to my success, with our without my W, moving forward. I've read a lot here about detachment, Cadet has posted stuff for me but I still really don't get it. I am faking it and not showing my emotions to the W. But, that doesn't help me feel any better when alone. If anyone has a 'Dummies Guide to Detachment', please send it over! I read somewhere that anytime I start to think about my W to just tell myself 'this isn't helping you'. Again, if I'm well enough rested it can be easy to turn those thoughts off as I have some ability to reason, but I generally don't sleep well so am constantly battling sleep deprivation which complicates all of this for me. I think I may go see my doctor to get some sleep meds. I believe some solid sleep would help me immensely. Maybe then I could better get my head around detachment.
On the GAL front, I am going out of town with about 20 guys this weekend golfing. It's an annual thing we do, my W and the rest of the wives are doing a girls weekend at a campground the weekend after. I am looking forward to this weekend but I don't want to be constantly thinking about my W when I'm away. Would ruin the whole experience for me. Question, I'll be calling home once a day to talk to my kids and I can call their cell phones directly (instead of going through my W) and that is what I will do but should I communicate directly with my W while I am away (checking in etc). My feeling is I should just not communicate with her at all while away. She doesn't communicate with me day to day as it is.
Ended up seeing the doc and got a script for Ativan (lorazepam) - best sleep I've had in years and no grogginess in the morning! Removes the anxiety and allows you to sleep. Took just half the pill (0.5mg). Will use it 7 - 10 days straight before bed and then stop using it. Hoping this will get me onto a better sleep cycle. Will keep a few left over just in case of a bad day/night.
Also taking herbal Kava during the day which seems to help (pretty mild so really hard to tell but hasn't made things any worse).
Just getting ready for the boys weekend away golfing. We leave tomorrow morning bright and early for a late morning tee off time. Should be a lot of fun!
Nothing really new to report on the W. Still just co-existing/living and mostly hanging with our best friends who are also a couple. I guess I should be thankful for having time to try and turn things around.
James3,
I'm glad you're getting some sleep; chronic lack of sleep can drain your batteries very quickly.
I hope you have tons of fun golfing. Be sure to watch Caddyshack before the weekend.
"Cinderella story. Outta nowhere. A former greenskeeper, now, about to become the Masters champion. It looks like a mirac... It's in the hole! It's in the hole! It's in the hole!"
Lol - have watched that one for too many times!
Thanks - should be a good time.
Yea, my batteries were completely drained. Feel better today now after two good nights sleep. Although the guys I'm going away with like to party so will be a fair bit of drinking and late nights so will be pretty tired come Sunday. All good guys who are happily married though - no shenanigans with my buddies. I was supposed head out tonight but I don't think I can handle three nights of partying with these guys. I'll take an extra night of good sleep for the marathon golf and drinking weekend ahead of me lol.
Had a great time this past weekend golfing with my buddies. W asked me how the weekend was when I got home and I simply answered that I had a good time and that the weather was great (since we were golfing). I then asked her how things went at home and she said good. And that was it. I know my W probably wanted to know what we did at night while away etc but unless she asks me specifically what I did while away I won't offer it. I doubt she'll ask though. Either she doesn't care or doesn't want to show she cares. Nothing all that interesting went on anyway.
Back to her retreating to her room and closing the door, not eating dinner with us. Must admit I'm getting a little tired of it. If we are going to rebuild our M let's get on with it. But it seems she is content to wait and she how things play out. I'm assuming she is waiting to see how she feels about me over time. She won't miss me as we see each other everyday. Not sure what will come of this. I know deep down that the only way I really want her back is if she becomes re-attracted to me and will show it. I can't force her to want to be with me. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing - no other choice.
She did text me twice over the weekend about some things she could have done herself (email the baseball coach that our son would miss the game) and something else that she could have told me Sunday when I got home. I do deal with the kids sports more than she does but she could have emailed the coach herself since I was away. I ended up doing it from the golf course.
James,
I'm glad you had a great time golfing! I hope you can get out and do more of that kind of stuff.
You know, my house is on a golf course and I've lived there for almost 16 years but I've never played golf. I've been tempted, but I'm more of a Frisbee guy.
I was just reading through the 'Last Resort Technique' and while my W has not said it's over (she has said she's not sure she wants to stay in this marriage) but she has been sleeping in another room for about 6 weeks now and we barely talk to each other. I haven't been pursuing my W in any way and have stayed busy going to the gym and running outside of the house after work otherwise taking the kids to their sports etc. The result has just been a stalemate. She still gets mad sometimes (like she used to) but for the most part she just ignores me and tells me nothing of what is going on in her life - I don't offer any details of what's going on in my life either. Because we still hang with our best friends who are a couple we end up spending time together but it's not time we actually spend talking together, we are just in the same room but talking to other people if you know what I mean. Many times I've felt like trying to break the ice by trying to talk to her about us or our R but I feel fairly certain she is going to push me away so have stopped myself.
She did say a while back she just needs some time and space and that is what I've been giving her but our life just feels like it's in limbo and faking a M around our friends and our kids. She just walks around like she is resentful towards me, and it is how she makes me feel,- not friendly, indifferent and only talks about things about the kids etc. She was supposed to call the MC about a month ago but she hasn't and I don't know that I should bring it up. I don't know what else to do.
While my W has made a lot of changes with her career and keeping busy going on walks with her friend, I don't see any change in the way she interacts with me (still angry and negative) when she actually interacts with me. She really only talks to me about the kids or if she is upset about something. I forget sometimes that this is what she has been like for years and as much as I love her, I don't want that angry person back either. Seems she is only that way with me.
Wonder if our expert moderators have any suggestions?
Here's my 2 cents:
Stop talking to her and going places with her altogether. If she comes into the room just get up and go somewhere else or ignore her, grunt, whatever. You don't deserve to be disrespected like this. No need to get angry just don't let her nonsense in your life anymore. You can control you and what you allow in. So take control. Actions are stronger than words. Show her with actions that her disrespect has consequences (consequences like shutting her out). Don't be afraid she of her leaving, in a sense she's already gone. Don't ask her about the MC either, that would seem like pursuing or controlling. Back away and act as if you don't care what she wants and instead appear nonchalant towards her. She may get more angry, be calm and walk away, let it roll off. No reaction is still an action. Remember, ACTIONS not WORDS. Be too busy to care whatever she is doing.
And don't forget you need to GAL like crazy. New activities, fix your own issues, etc. Appear happy whether you are or not. She will notice your positive changes, positive energy and new life without you saying a word. Actions, not Words
I don't know that ignoring her anymore than I/we already do is going to help. We barely communicate as it is. I'd like to find out what is behind this seeming resentment, she just acts like she's indifferent, uncaring towards me. This all escalated once she moved out of the MBR and into the other room (I had moved out of the MBR for 3 days and then decided I was moving back and then she moved out - it's been 6 weeks like this now). It was after that that she really started to act cold and disconnected from me and has slowly gotten worse.
It's been a long time since we've talked about our relationship and I guess at this point I'd like to know what we are doing. We sure aren't working together to try and rebuild our relationship. Just feels like my W is waiting some time to see if she truly wants to be with me or not. I'm really not sure at this point. As I said, she did say she needed time and space.
Things are going well for her career wise as of late (which is a big change) so she is on a high and feeling confident where, for me, work has been awful and have not been able to get into a better job situation and that is also wearing be down. She has the upper hand being detached and happy. I put up a good front for the most part but it's just that.
After months of ignoring each other I sometimes wonder if she is looking for a little attention from me. My fear is that I would show some attention but she wouldn't respond to it leaving me feeling exposed and having pursued. So I have not tried it.
So a week ago my W asked if I was ok if she spent $2k on a course she wants to take. I agreed as it helps with her work. Today I asked my W if she was ok if I took two courses which would give me industry certifications in my line of work which would help with my work. She said, do whatever you want and went upstairs - she didn't support it the way I did her request. Anyway, she came back down 5 minutes later and said "I think it's more important that we figure out what we are doing because clearly this isn't working. We need to talk about our options". Not a very positive tone to be sure. She was on her way out the door for a few hours so we didn't have time to talk about it then, I simply said I agree.
I have no idea if she is going to tell me she's fallen out of love with me or that she is basically upset with me for allowing her to live in the other room for the past 2 months.
If she tells me she has fallen out of love with me, I don't know what to say or do to be honest. I'm sure she'll say something about selling the house.
If she still loves me she may be upset about sleeping in the other room the past 2 months but my point would be she asked for space, it was her that decided to move into the other room (I didn't ask her - I told her her she didn't need to). I can't help but feel she is going to lay another one of her guilt trips on me about how things have been the past few months when, in my view, it has been all her choice. She is the one that said she need space and time and I have given her that without any pressure, I've stayed completely clear of her and not asked questions etc. Just let her do whatever she wants to do without any interference from me. If it does go down this way, what is the best way to handle it? Just tell her you asked for time and space which is what I was giving you? Anything else I should mention at this point? Do I tell her I love her but she needs to decide what it is she wants?
Even if my W does feel she wants back into the relationship she isn't going to say it - she will want to try and make me squirm and feel guilt over it and I really can't stand for that - it's not right or fair after everything we've been through the past 6 months of in-house separation.
Calling Cadet - any insights from a female perspective?
I would just take it in and say you have to think about your options. I wouldn't blather on about loving her unless the talk goes in that direction and she wants to move back to the MBR.
Stay calm James and remember to believe 1/2 what she does and nothing of what she says
Listen , validate and sleep on whatever she has to say Today's convo won't make or break anything
Take care. Rd
We didn't have a chance to talk last night but I'll most likely ask her if she wants to go for a walk tonight to talk (get out of the house and away from the kids) since she brought this up. I really don't know what she is expecting or wanting from me at this point. During our MC sessions (last one was months ago) she had said she wanted me to help more around the house so I took over doing all the household laundry (which she hated doing) and doing the monthly bills and have been doing so for months now. But otherwise, I've completely pulled back and given her space as she had asked. I just find it strange that she said (last night) that "this isn't working". Is she expecting me to chase her or something? I don't get it. I've been doing everything with the kids and their sports, being a great dad, running and working out daily to take care of myself emotionally and physically, pursuing a new job relentlessly (I'm working contract but need stability in a full time job) but I just get the feeling my W just doesn't respect me and certainly isn't attracted to me. I think she may feel resentful that I'm not doing something to try and get her back - just a guess based on what she said last night about this obviously not working. If we have a talk tonight she'll probably say something to the effect of 'obviously this isn't working so what are our options at this point'. She'll put it on me to decide what our next steps are as if she is done. I'm not about to start playing a poker game of who will push it further by saying I'll call a realtor and see about listing the house or anything else along those lines and I certainly won't propose physical separation (we can't afford it anyway). I think my response would be, as I mentioned previously, that she asked for time and space and I have respected that and done everything I can to give that to her. My two questions to her would be "are you still in love with me and do you want to save our marriage?" It's what it all boils down to so shouldn't I just ask at this point?
She is going to be looking to me to direct the conversation and the direction we go in. I feel it's a bit of a game and i don't want to get caught up in it. If she wanted out wouldn't she just say I'm done and want a divorce?? I feel like she is prodding me to say I don't like where we are at, you are doing anything to win me back, so I'm going to threaten you to get you to do something to make the situation better. She is not your typical female. She is tough and hard and isn't going to make this easy for me - you have to understand this.
I have no idea if she is going to tell me she's fallen out of love with me or that she is basically upset with me for allowing her to live in the other room for the past 2 months.
Why do you feel responsible for her choices? She chose to move out of the MBR; you didnt kick her out. Allowing her to live there? Come on...
I can't help but feel she is going to lay another one of her guilt trips on me about how things have been the past few months when, in my view, it has been all her choice.
It HAS been all her choice. You gave her what she wanted; time and space. Youve been a good dad. What do you have to feel guilty about?
If it does go down this way, what is the best way to handle it? Just tell her you asked for time and space which is what I was giving you? Anything else I should mention at this point? Do I tell her I love her but she needs to decide what it is she wants?
Just validate and listen. Why do you feel like you need to say so much? And no...dont tell her the bolded. Try to avoid saying what she "needs" to do. I would stick to the "mantra" - you arent interested in separation/divorce, but you love + respect her enough to allow her to make her decisions. Things like that.
I'll most likely ask her if she wants to go for a walk tonight to talk (get out of the house and away from the kids) since she brought this up.
Ugh. Why? If she wants to talk, let her arrange it. If she wants to talk, then you can suggest going for a walk to get out of the house. But dont go about trying to have this R talk.
I think she may feel resentful that I'm not doing something to try and get her back - just a guess based on what she said last night about this obviously not working.
This is just your fear talking. If you had done those things, youd be even closer to being divorced.
She'll put it on me to decide what our next steps are as if she is done. I'm not about to start playing a poker game of who will push it further by saying I'll call a realtor and see about listing the house or anything else along those lines and I certainly won't propose physical separation (we can't afford it anyway). I think my response would be, as I mentioned previously, that she asked for time and space and I have respected that and done everything I can to give that to her.
It isnt a game. If you dont want S or D, then dont propose it. Show that you are listening to her and are working to become the man you want to be. The rest of it is on her.
My two questions to her would be "are you still in love with me and do you want to save our marriage?" It's what it all boils down to so shouldn't I just ask at this point?
If youd like to hear her say "no", then fine, ask.
She is going to be looking to me to direct the conversation and the direction we go in. I feel it's a bit of a game and i don't want to get caught up in it. If she wanted out wouldn't she just say I'm done and want a divorce??
Yes. She would. So why are you thinking of pushing her to say those words and do those actions?
Just calm down. Relax. And stop letting your fear control you.
You can do it, James.
Hi James. Your having the conversation before it's happened. I wouldn't initiate the talk She's the one that wants to have a talk so let her choose the time and if the time suits you then ok
Let her lead the conversation for the same reasons The same advice from yesterday still applies. Listen , validate and don't respond from feelings or your thoughts at that time. If she's looking for you to answer straight away then say you need time to think and STFU ( Shut the F up). Don't be drawn into anything without giving yourself time to think or come on here for advice from the wise ones
Look back on your life and think of all the times you would go back and do / say something different if you had the chance. Give yourself that chance now.
No matter what she says , STFU and just say ok , I need to think about that
This conversation is one of many to come James, it's no more important than the next conversation ,
Stay strong. Rd. ('oh yea , listen and STFU )
Ps. STFU
Thanks for the feedback darkness and yes I have fears I'm fighting here. I do want to know what she wants and what she is feeling but I won't ask as you pointed out. I probably won't like the answer.
She said it's important that we talk - is that not a signal to me to arrange a time for us to talk? Could be my fear again but I don't want to seem like I don't care about talking either by ignoring what she said. That would be how she'll take it.
If she puts it on me to direct our next steps, what am I supposed to say? Do I say I'm not interested in separation and would like us to rebuild our marriage? She is likely to respond negatively to say 'I don't know if our marriage can be repaired'. This is what she does but how do I respond to that? Do I say you 'you know how I feel and what I want and that's all I can tell you'. I literally need to know what to say here and how to handle it.
She isn't likely to say anything constructive so I need to be able to handle the negativity she is going to give me. I don't really know how to respond to it other than to try to make futile positive remarks which she just pushes away. I'm starting to feel that I should just repeat that she knows how I feel and what I want and leave it at that. Up to her to respond in whatever direction she wants to go in.
Keep in mind, I have not been pursuing her at all for months and have been doing my own thing (and her her own thing) with very little discussion between us about what we are doing in our lives.
RD500 - thanks for the response.
I am playing it out on here because I know what she is likely to do and say and I don't know how to respond to it well. Talking it through here gives me a chance to prepare my approach. If she has something to say I will listen and validate but otherwise will try to say very little (the more I talk the more I get myself into trouble it seems anyway).
Again, she is likely to say 'this isn't working, where do we go from here' and leave it for me to respond. She won't lead the conversation per se, she'll put it on me so I really need some help to understand how best to respond and handle this form of communication with her.
No matter what she says , STFU and just say ok , I need to think about that
If she asks you an open question like "...blah,blah, where do we go from here?" You may just say... "I don't know, I never planned to be here" and then just let her talk. It may be a long silence but eventually one of you will crack and start talking again to break it. Don't let it be you, be strong.
W and I talked tonight, did not go well. She is done! She lost respect for me when I moved back into the MBR which forced her out among a list of other things. Said I had lots of time to try and resolve things during the past few months and I did nothing - so much for DB tactics! She loves me as the father of our kids but has no feelings for me anymore. She says she's not angry or resentful anymore but she still started arguing about things that happened in the past which was confusing. She says she can't live with me anymore and one of us needs to move out but we can't afford it so not sure what we will do. Otherwise we have to sell the house and go our own ways which will shatter our kids - even one of us moving out is going to tear the kids apart. I was honest, I told her that I'm sorry for making her feel this way but that I still love her and don't want to see our family break up. She just said she can't do this anymore and that I needed to accept it. She cried for a while - I tried to console somewhat. She seems completely done with me - seriously. I knew she would hold her moving out of the room over me - her point being that I was the one who had made the mistakes and I should have honored her request for space and stayed out instead of just announcing I'm moving back in 'like I'm the king' and leaving her no choice but to move into the other room. She feels I have disrespected her over the years and she has sacrificed everything for our family and she just wants some happiness. I don't know anymore if I've done the right thing here or not. Leaving her on her own in the other room for months gave her too much time to sit there and stew and find reasons to finish the marriage. It did nothing to bring us closer and just brought more strain between us which has made things worse. I held myself together and didn't breakdown as much as I felt I wanted to - I knew this wouldn't help matters. She had already listed off the things I've done in the past which she has lost respect for me and now she has none for me. And I can honestly see she is vacant of any feelings for me. She said that when the switch goes off its off. I can see that my attempts at pursuit tonight won't bring her back either. She has a lot of anger and resentment towards me even though she says she is past that - it only seems to come out when I try and talk positives about our relationship. I feel helpless at this point. She won't go see the MC either - says she had enough time to work through her thoughts and has made this decision. It's been left that I need to think about the two options, either one of us moves out or we sell the house. Neither option I'm interested in but she says she can't live with me any longer. She says she's almost 50 and life is too short to go on living like this - she wants to experience some happiness and stress free in her life. We have had a bumpy relationship and a lot financial troubles - I told her understand why she would feel that way but asked her not to lose complete hope for us and take things a day at a time - she just said she's done - get used to it. I'm sure by me pursuing I'm empowering her but there isn't much I could do - I couldn't stand there and ignore the finality of what she was telling me. No game of 180 or detachment was going to help here.
Sorry for rambling but the W just went over to her friends for a glass of wine and I'm at home a bit of a mess. I have no idea what to do at this point. Frankly, doing 180's and pulling back from her has backfired on me. She was hoping I would have made some attempts to bring us back together. Who knows, maybe she is just saying that now to make me feel like crap (worked by the way - she is the queen of guilt trips) and nothing I would have done may have made a difference. I'll never know. It's just such a mess and she is going to be pushing for one of us to move out. She works out of the house and has an office here. I don't know what to do anymore.
I'm sorry about all of things that you went through tonight.
Know that you are doing the best that you can. If you did all the things she says she wanted, it would not have made a difference. There would have just been other things that bothered her.
Don't DO anything yet. Just take some time to relax and compose yourself.
Hi James , sorry you had to go through that but please believe that darkness is correct , nothing you have done has made things worse , W asked for space and that's what she got
As for one of you have to leave , yes she might be right but as she's the one that wants out of he R then she should leave.
Moving into the MBR was the right things to do , you may not agree today but in time you will feel differently. Everything she said is script , it's classic and it's been said by WASs over and over.
Your sitch is in a relatively short time frame still and your W was never going to change her mind in that short time. You have posted she's the queen of guilt trips so this just another one. If you had done everything she wanted she would have even less respect for you
Your obviously a good man and that's a bit to your detriment here. Your looking at how you could have fixed this. Right now you can't and all you can do is be the best you that you can be and live your life for you
James , when this happens it very hard for people to grasp the M was over the minute the W or H drops the bomb We all feel that we can fix it and it's not really happening. Truth is , the WAS has thought long and before dropping the bomb and they will not be swayed in the short term or if ever
You have to pick yourself up , accept what she said ( because to her , right now , it's cast in stone ) and move forward.
Please don't even consider moving out , please accept that W is now only acting in her own interests and you must be strong
Remember your own words about the guilt trip thing Don't let that control you and there is always hope , I'm not trying to give you false hope but there are plenty of success stories on here but it's going to take time and maybe you won't want to reconcile by then
Post often because people like me can offer support and basic knowledge but the vets can give real nuggets at a time like this
Take care. Rd
James keep doing GAL activities to improve yourself and your outlook on life. That is what gets you through the rough times. It's not just going to the gym, it's expanding your life experiences and self improvement mentally and physically.
I'm actually starting to feel that the only chance I have to save this marriage is to move out. Living together in separation has just made things worse. Walking around ignoring each other is stressful on us both and has just created more resentment in my W. There is no way she is ever going to miss me if I'm in her face every single day. I don't believe that me staying in the house and telling her if she wants to separate she can move out is going to help the situation one bit. She already feels I disrespect her, that I force her to sacrifice her feelings, comfort (MBR), for me - this would just be another smack in the face to her. This isn't an affair situation guys - she hasn't done anything wrong - she is just upset, sad, and at her whits end at the state of our relationship (we fight and bicker all of the time) and the realization that she is hitting 50 and her entire life has been a struggle and full of stress. I can understand where she is coming from. She wants to be free of the stress - so do I. last night I did propose selling the house and buying a more affordable family home to remove the financial stress but she is beyond that - she just doesn't want to be with me - I am the center of her stress (I realize it's not all me but this is her state of mind at this point). I guess my point is, I can't just sit back and tell her to move out if that's what she wants - it will most certainly make things worse. If my goal is reconcile with my W I'm going to need to play ball here. She isn't being unreasonable or mean and there is no OM or A - this is simply a woman who has had enough of fighting and stress and needs a change and she can't get that while living with me. I did say to her 'so you are saying I move out, we separate, eventually divorce, sell the house and we're done?'. She said in response that her hope is that if we live separately that we'll miss each other and maybe come back to together. She isn't saying divorce as she isn't certain about the finality of our relationship. All she knows is she can't go on living the way we are and can't live in the same house with me any longer.
It's important that you all understand the situation as perhaps DB tactics should not always be applied. In my case it seems to have made things worse.
So, the cards are on the table, my W is expecting one of us to move out (would be me if I have any hope of saving the M) or we sell the house and which case I believe our M is done.
I read a few articles where the couple goes to their MC and the MC mediates a controlled separation where there is an agreement between the couple. So that we both know what the expectations are during this insecure and unsettled time. Set up ground rules etc.
Just to give you all eventualities my wife was unhappy and asked for a 2 week separation to see if she misses me and figure out her feelings.
Long story short, I'm nearly 9 weeks in now, my M is over and I'm living with my parents........ Things did not turn out well.
Sorry to hear that KyleR. Not much can happen in 2 weeks let along 9. We were talking 6 - 12 months. I'm in no hurry to move out but this is where things stand. I'm hoping to drag things out a little - she had a lot to say yesterday and maybe that's a weight off for her (while she tends to exaggerate and over state things often I do believe she means everything she says - she said she has put a lot of thought into it). I don't know, I'm usually stupidly optimistic, but I guess I'm hoping that now that we are talking again (in-spite of the cards on the table) that maybe we can ease the tension for starters. I hope to lighten things up between us but she could take that as friendship - not what I'm after. We have a mutual friends birthday party Friday night we are going to - I'll do my best to try and stay light, maybe get a laugh out of her. I know right now she isn't at all attracted to me - she's put out by my actions or inactions over the past few years in general. She recalls them like they happened yesterday so it's going to be very difficult to get past those negative feelings towards me.
The path I'm taking is to keep my distance from her and not speak to her about anything other then the kids. I'm finding it easier not to reach out to her but it's still odd to me that I can't pick up the phone on my lunch break and phone her.
My W fell in love with a funny, outgoing guy who always liked to socialise and was quite spontaneous but when I had kids my priorities shifted to focus on them and unfortunately my W didn't...... I suppose I'm telling you this because I'm trying to reconnect with that guy I was before and show her, like you said I'm trying to make her smile and laugh whenever the opportunity arises.
I spent months not calling or texting my W unless I had to about the kids, being polite but not asking questions, not pressuring her or talking about the R, keeping busy out of the house, going to the gym and running nightly, hanging with friends, GAL'ing, took back the MBR which forced her to move to another room but it didn't do anything to bring her closer to me - it served to push her away. She feels I have hurt her and I should have been trying to make things better between us, not ignoring the issues the past 6 months. Again, I'm not sure this forum is necessarily the best place for non-affair related issues.
My W just feels that I haven't respected her - we've fought like crazy for years. She's from a broken family and two crazy parents - she doesn't think twice about yelling or speaking disrespectfully towards me. She really doesn't see her part in any of this which makes it that much more difficult. She says she spent a lot of time connecting with herself and giving a lot of thought to the M but all I hear is blame on me - I don't hear anything about the mistakes she has made other than putting up with me, and what she has sacrificed. I really don't see how we can reconcile when she has that mindset - it would never work. She'll always be resentful holding something against me moving away and me pursuing - not a healthy relationship. I have no idea how to deal with this!
Life was easier and lighter years ago for us but, although my W denies that was a big part of the problem, the financial stress we have been under for years has taken a toll on our relationship. We did a big reno on our house in 2007 and ever since we've been behind the 8 ball financially. And that has meant years of stress and living pay cheque to pay cheque and she works part-time and doesn't make a lot of money. Prior to that we were comfortable and fairly happy with some spare income for her and I to do overnight get away's out of town etc. We can't even afford to go out for dinner now. I was planning to reno part of the basement into an apartment to rent out which would really help with cashflow but we don't have much money in reserve to even do that reno. We may just end up selling the house regardless of what direction we go in. It would alleviate a lot of stress, whether we stay together or not. Ideally we move as a family into a more affordable home in the same neighborhood but she said she can't live with me anymore. As most do here, I have a long road ahead of me!
I've sometimes think the same as you with regards non-affair related issues. My W isn't acting out, she shows no anger, there is malice in anything she has said she is just indifferent.
She has shouldered all the blame for the breakdown of our M and has openly told people that it's nothing I've done. She has said that there was nothing wrong with our R and wouldn't have changed anything but she just doesn't feel like she doesn't love me anymore and isn't missing me.
I, like you think the stresses of life and the expectations of M has broken her. We were living paycheck to paycheck, we had no time to spend with the kids, childcare was a nightmare, we had little to nothing to show for all our efforts.
If I'm honest I feel like I could climb Everest and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
Doesn't feel like she loves me anymore....Bit of a double negative in my previous post.
James,
Go see a doctor and get an antidepressant. If you don't do that then I'm going to get some boxes and tape and pack your sh*t and kick you out of your house.
Ok Doodler - thanks for making me laugh! What's your recommendation at this point (and I actually was considering AD's to be honest - I don't handle this stuff well).
James,
My recommendation is to go to a doctor and get an AD ASAP.
I like you a lot because you remind me a bit of myself, but d@mn get a prescription for an AD. CWOL and I both told you to do that weeks ago. GO DO IT!
James,
I'm also in a non-affair, non-abuse situation.
My own thread hasn't received much focus, so I don't have issues with the advice I personally have received, but I agree that the overall tone of this forum can seem harsh for non-affair situations. Sometimes.
However, I've also received great emotional support at times I really needed it.
The book itself has a different tone, and I reread chapters when I am trying to decide if implementing the ideas from the board would be good for my situation.
For example, sometimes I read the board and think that detaching is about minimizing contact and treating my spouse like a neighbor. That was bad for my relationship.
When I read the book, I thought of detachment more as tsking responsibility for my mood and self-esteem, rather than deriving them from how H reacted to me. This has been awesome for my relationship and has significantly reduced neediness and pursuing behavior. It's not a temporary activity but something I will continue to do throughout the relationship.
Just my two cents.
I hope things start to improve soon.
Rose888 - I got similar advice to treat her like a neighbor and in hind sight that was not good advice. My W didn't want a neighbor, she wanted her husband to step up and show he cared enough to do something about the situation....and I did nothing but play some detachment game. That said, who knows, she may have just told me to go F myself anyway. She loves guilt trips!
Doodler - I got an anti- anxiety a few weeks back to help me sleep. It has helped but I now only take it when I need it, like last night. You can't take these things longer than 2 weeks straight as they are apparently highly addictive although I'm taking the lowest dosage 0.5Mg of Ativan.
I'm considering an AD to help me get through all of this. I have a lot of trouble focusing at work and trying to study for an exam. My emotions are all over the place and my mind runs wild thinking about the good times as a family etc - it tears me apart. I'm at work now and can feel the emotional swells almost bring me to tears when I think about the good times. At home I hold it together in front of my W (and kids obviously) but wait for privacy to fall apart, which I have a day here and there over the past few weeks. Just need to let it out sometimes. I've been researching effects of AD in this sort of situation and possibly which one might be best. I'll probably go back and see the doc next week once I've had a chance to process all of this. I'm a little overwhelmed right now. Do the AD's make you feel happy/optimistic or just numb to the emotional pain? I'm afraid if I'm numbed out I won't handle the situation properly (maybe it will help, I don't know).
Do the AD's make you feel happy/optimistic or just numb to the emotional pain? I'm afraid if I'm numbed out I won't handle the situation properly (maybe it will help, I don't know).
James,
That's a hard question to answer. I feel all of the emotions (happy, sad, angry etc.), but I'm optimistic. I think it's the optimism that makes the difference.
Rollo May, a famous psychologist, said that depression is "the inability to see or construct a future." That statement may seem silly to someone who's not depressed, but for someone suffering from depression, there's no future that seems bright.
So, to me, an AD makes me feel like a brighter future is one of the possibilities that I can chose. That makes a huge difference.
I hope that helps.
That does help - that is exactly what I need. When I have good days it's because something positive has happened in my life and it gives me that purpose, some future optimism, however short lived it may be. It's that lack of optimism that drags me down day after day. Optimism is what motivates me to get up and go do something - it gives me confidence. Wish I had that everyday! It would certainly help me either work through the issues with my W or separate and move on and not fall apart. I'll give it some thought over the weekend. What brand of AD and dosage are you on? Any side effects?
I am truly sorry you feel DB tactics are to blame for things getting worse in your situation.
She is done! She lost respect for me when I moved back into the MBR which forced her out among a list of other things. Said I had lots of time to try and resolve things during the past few months and I did nothing - so much for DB tactics!
Here's the thing, she was done before you ever came on board. You did not force her out of the MBR, as I recall. You told her she could stay if she wanted. She
chose not to stay in the room with you. She refuses to let it go and constantly hammers on the MBR incident, but it's only an excuse for her to use. And, I think
you have chosen to blame it on the advice you received.
I don't think you were advised to ignore your W, but I'm not sure. Many people have trouble knowing how to apply DBing detachment. They act cold, mad, etc. Some people don't know how to apply the neighbor type of interaction. I'm not accusing you of not knowing, but I don't think you should blame any failure on DB.
I have said all along that your W does not respect you. That is the
true issue. I wanted to help you see it, and I wanted you to get that respect again. She won't love you until it returns. FWIW, I
do agree with you about the S, b/c I don't think any progress is being made under the present conditions. Maybe you will be able to find yourself, and maybe somehow find the happiness you deserve. I sure hope so.
I'll give it some thought over the weekend.
And that's your problem in a nutshell.
What brand of AD and dosage are you on? Any side effects?
I take generic Lexapro. One of the supposed side effects is reduced libido (lowered sexual desire), but I don't know about that. Yesterday, I was in the grocery store and there was a hot young thing walking by; she was perfect. Seconds later I was humping her leg like I was a rottweiler. I didn't realize anything had happened until she started slapping the sh*t out of me.
Another side effect is lucid daydreams about hot chicks in grocery stores. I guess that was just a dream, but day-um...
Hi Sandi - I'm not blaming DB, I'm just a little wounded right now. I just probably should have listened to myself a little bit more as well. Every situation is different, as your signature says, "do what works". That said, I don't necessarily believe anything would have ended up any differently had I of pursued her. She has always been the type to not accept apologies and push me away, place loads of guilt on me, not take any responsibly in our fights etc. And that remains the same today - she still blames me for not trying, or the things I did in the past, etc. I can't win whether I do try or don't. I don't know what she wants from me and at this point she has made it clear she just wants to be away from me. You are right of course, I don't feel she respects me at all which frankly isn't fair. I've worked so very hard to support this family, be a good father to our boys, a good guy and husband to my W but I have made some mistakes along the way. Should this be held over my head for the rest of my life - I should hope not but this is the question I need to ask myself. Even if she did agree to stay together, what would our relationship be like? Yes i love her but how can we maintain a healthy relationship if she is angry and resentful and can't let go of past events. She brought up some past events talking last night that she said I never apologized for - I corrected her and reminded of the profuse apologizing I did back in January but she doesn't accept it. There was a time back in February where I still saw a twinkle in her eye for me but that fire has been gone for months now.
Physical separation may be the only option at this point.
Lol!!! Made my day buddy!
I'll try and get into see the doc asap!
So I've put a call into the doc to try and get an appointment asap. I've barely been managing the emotional roller coaster with exercise and things are going from bad to worse so it's probably time to get some help. BTW - I ran my first organized 5k marathon last night. I can do 5k no problem but I tried keeping up with the pros and that nearly killed me. I did do well though and raised money for United Way at the same time. Felt good. In fact I felt great last night but of course woke up at 4am this morning thinking about everything again and I'm emotional again today. I can't keep going on like this.
My work situation is stressful as well as I work on short contract periods but there is a chance I may be offered full-time in the coming weeks - fingers crossed.
As for my current situation, my W has asked that either one of us move out (sure she means me) or we sell the house. As always she is extreme. I don't know what I'm going to do yet. We can't afford another apartment no matter how cheap. We have $20k on a line of credit and she proposed using that - it's the last bit of money we have access to. Also, from what I've read, if you are going to agree to moving out both couples need to agree on the purpose, are we trying to rekindle our relationship or is this just her way of trying to ease her way out of our M. In not so direct terms, I seem to have already gotten the I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore so I question the purpose. The only other option, which I don't think she would agree to, is to propose a deadline. We try for another 4 months if we can't get back on track by then we sell the house and move on. Doesn't put any further financial strain on us, we've been together for 20 years so what's another 4 months to truly see if we can work it or not before we tear apart our family.
Meantime, I'm trying to step back a bit and look at my W for what she is really like. Yes I love her but is it truly a healthy relationship, am I ever really going to be happy with her again - it's been a long time since we've truly been happy together (or at least she happy with me). I need to start acknowledging the negative things about her to help distance my emotions so have started a small list - emotional bully (she's very hard on me), constantly exaggerating the facts, short tempered, demanding/high expectations, opinionated (offers her opinion when no one asked for it), doesn't acknowledge her failings in our M - blames me for it all. I'm not trying to make up mean things about her to make me feel better, these are all true and I really should remind myself of them more often. Really, any time I think about the good times it should be tempered with the bad - but who has that much sense!
I've also joined a few local separation/divorce support groups and will try and attend some meetings in the coming weeks. I think meeting with folks face to face who are going through similar issues will help and give me a chance to talk about my situation. If I'm honest I don't think I've fully accepted that my W no longer loves me and does not want to be with me. My head knows it but my heart won't let go. Perhaps the AD's will calm my emotions and give me some perspective. I could never have imagined we would end up here! It just feels like a non stop nightmare.
James,
Good for you! You're taking action and doing some real soul searching.
Hi James , I don't think many of us ever understand how we ended up here. I've only read one story where I thought the W was right to leave and another more recently where the guy was cheated on but he came across as being away with the fairies and any R will be tough for him
I'm friends with a few ladies and gentlemen on here for a while and I would marry any of the ladies and marry my sister to the gentlemen without hesitation
It really seems that we are not the core issue , of course we weren't perfect but who is ?
I have inlaws. ( had inlaws ?) that if I told you how the W was treated you wouldn't believe me , no abuse more disdain and the H lives his life for him exclusively. The W is beautiful , inside and out and had a line of guys begging to marry her and still would have but she moans about H but accepts it.
You are doing well and I know you're not blaming DB but you are wondering if it's right. Who knows but if you do DB , you as a person will improve regardless and that's got to be a bonus
Get to the docs and settle your thoughts and feeling before what's best for you , regardless what W wants
Stay strong. Rd
W and I went for a walk on the weekend to talk about our situation. She says that one of us should move out, probably means me. That she'll always love me but doesn't feel that way about me anymore (basically saying I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore). I didn't beg or plead with her but did tell her that I love her and I don't think this is the answer but she was adamant about it. She says she just can't live like this anymore - she was crying for a while. We argued a bit during the walk as she was blaming me for everything and I felt compelled to defend myself a little bit but there wasn't much point. She is expecting us to have a follow-up conversation on the subject as she asked, and said I would, think about what she is asking for. Not sure what to do at this point. I don't want either of us to leave. If she left she would feel so resentful it would be the death nail to our already broken relationship. She wants to see me do the work here and that may mean me moving out but I'm concerned how the kids will react. They will be very upset for sure. My only idea as of now is to propose we try for 6 months and see what if we can pull things back together before we tear our family apart. Ask if she feels open to returning to the MC then we can do that (she already said she doesn't want to go - that she has made up her mind).
I don't know how to break through the icy wall she has built up. I haven't tried pursuing her, touching her etc. I did hold her hand and kiss her head when she was crying during our talk but that was it - that's the fist time I've touched her in months. I can see she has 'turned off the switch' as she put it. Will be very hard to get that opened up again. Comes down to an attraction and trust issue I suppose. She would need to be attracted to me enough to risk her feelings again.
I'll continue to keep myself busy going to the gym and running and busy with the kids but aside from that what can I do to show her (with sincerity) that I want this to work? I don't think she believes that I want to do what is required to make this work. She said as much that I've had all sort of time to try and fix things and I've done nothing. Told her she said she wanted time and space and I respected that. That told me that as much as she was playing hard ball she still expected me to try and work on things. Maybe she wanted to see if I would pursue her - if I cared enough to. I didn't pursue. All I know is at this point I do need to make an attempt to try and break through the icy wall. At least I can tell myself I did try as I haven't really pursued at all - may be too late at this point but who knows. I need to maintain my dignity and self respect so by pursuing I don't mean begging etc. I simply mean making a meaningful attempt to be nice and agreeable, to try and get her to talk with me about non-relationship stuff, be flattering to her perhaps, show some extra attention to her etc. I know this is off course for DB but my situation hasn't been a perfect fit here either so interested to see what you folks suggest.
Don't leave the house - I made that mistake and I'm paying for it every day. It will not help you DB, as MWD says it's easier when both are in the house. Also if it comes down to a full D - it puts you in a bad position.
Ditto, don't move out. Work on fixing yourself to be a better person that only a fool would leave. You have to stand strong for the marriage. She won't respect you if you leave.
I just got off a phone call with our marriage counselor who we have not seen since January. I gave her a quick high-level of what's transpired and our current state and that the wife will not go see her for marriage counselling. She suggested telling my wife that we need to go see her to figure out how we are going to handle a separation amicably. MC says my wife won't go under the pretense of trying to fix the marriage at this point as it's if I have not heard what she is saying (that she's done). I guess if I can get her in there it will give us an opportunity to talk things out. The MC suspects that my wife had the resolve to split long before moving to the other bedroom which wasn't good to hear but it is what it is. I'm grasping at straws at this point, I will propose this to the wife today if I can get some time with her and see what she says. Either way we are going to need some mediation to help us repair the relationship or separate us. This seems the only logical next step at this point.
I imagine I'm going to get a big dose of reality if the meeting with the MC happens. I don't want to wallow in false hope so if she is truly done I need to hear it straight and having the MC there to clarify and confirm things to ensure this isn't emotional or game talk will be helpful. One way or another I'll know where I stand after that meeting. I know I'll probably fall apart afterwards - the thought of us breaking up is one thing, but the thought of our kids going through the hell that is to come tears my heart out. They will be shattered!
Any thoughts, comments or recommendations on any of this are welcome. Thanks!
I just spoke to my wife and told her I spoke to the marriage counselor and she agreed that we should come in and see her to help us work through the separation arrangements with her to keep things amicable. My W was not happy, said I blind sided her with this (really? - she dropped the absolution of done and separation bomb on me this past weekend), that we could do this ourselves (doubt it), that our money would be better spent getting lawyers which I responded that's not very amicable. She spouted all sorts of nonsense then left the room. She texted me 10 minutes later agreeing to go see the marriage counselor. I don't know what to make of her reaction but generally she is always looking for something to be mad about or give me a hard time over, as she did - she's angrier than ever these days. Other than that - who the hell knows!
In response to her text I sent this response:
"I have to tell you, you dropped a bomb on me last weekend. I thought we had a chance but you made it crystal clear you were done and just want separation. You asked me to think about it and I have. You've left me no choice but to look at a separation and how we can manage it amicably. This wasn't at all my where I wanted us to go but I have no control over it and I have accepted that. My call to the MC was to see if she can facilitate something like this - and she strongly recommended it. Thank you for agreeing to go."
I had sent this in response to her agreeing to go. It was an emotional response mostly because of her irrational response from our conversation earlier. I always end up feeling I didn't say what needed to be said and felt I should at least make this clear. Probably shouldn't have said anything more but its done. She did not reply.
James,
I think you're text was good; I don't think you did any harm by sending it. (But what do I know?)
From my own experience with my wife and MC, I think your wife sees it as your problem, none of it is hers, and you need fixing, not her or the marriage. Thus, in her mind, MC is a superfluous waste of money and time.
Be prepared; it probably won't go well, but you might be pleasantly surprised.
Good luck!
Doodler, I think you're right. I think my wife looks as me as broken. Throughout all of her relationships over the years I've never heard her once say one of them was a good guy (sounded like they weren't but who knows - I only get her side of the story). It's always been what awful and abusive people they were. I guess I'm the next one in line! Can't wait to hear the stories she makes up about me - she already denies facts and doesn't acknowledge things she says. It's a big part of what we've fought about for years.
My W and I still hang out with our mutual friends but don't talk to each other when we are out and with them. Last night there was few people getting together at a friends back yard and as I am studying for an exam and have had enough of this situation said she should go ahead without me (she went and I stayed home). She texted me today saying our best friend couple wanted to have us over for dinner and I said go ahead without me (we've been doing these sort of things regularly until now) and she says 'well they won't without you so I'll just say no'. I didn't respond. I get another text a few minutes later saying 'So you just aren't doing anything with me anymore - is that how you're handling it?'. I didn't respond. She met me at my sons baseball game and asked if I saw the text and if I was going to respond. I said I will later. She said I just want to know if this is the way things are going to be from now on and I told her first and foremost I'm studying but I don't see what difference it makes in any case (was referring to the current state of our relationship but couldn't really talk where we were). I don't understand what she expects. She said something about being friends and I thought to myself I'm not looking for my wife to be just friends. That was earlier this afternoon and I thought about bringing it back up with her but I'm going to let it go and leave it all until we go to the MC Tuesday to discuss anything more. I have no idea what she is thinking. At this point I just want to know if she is done with me, then let me know 100% so I can move on. If she still has feelings for me, then also let me know. I've made my feelings and intentions clear - I can't handle this limbo anymore.
Having one of those bad emotional days as of the moment I woke up this morning. The reality of the situation is slowly sinking in and inescapable and I broke down for a good half hour this morning (pulled it together just seconds before my wife entered the room to get some clothes). I so want things to work out between us but she is so completely checked out these days - which is why it surprised me yesterday her being upset about us not doing things together. But, she may just be stringing me along to try and keep the house as long as possible and keep me emotionally invested in her. I've even starting to wonder if me getting a full-time job would make things better for us but perhaps it's just a way for her to ensure she'll get support payments. I didn't used to think she would do these sorts of things and still have a hard time believing it but at this point, she is emotionally checked out and going on with her life so I just don't know anymore. My being there with her obviously does not matter. I don't know what she wants anymore. I'm trying to refrain from talking to her about any of this until we go see the MC Tuesday. I think the MC intends to present separation forms and go through them with us and see what happens. When I think of the kids and the bomb that is going to get dropped on them it quite honestly brings me to tears. These poor kids - all they want is a happy family. What they are about to get is their parents spliting up and selling the family home. Their family life is about to be ripped from beneath their feet. I don't think my W even cares (or somehow doesn't truly think selling the house will actually happen).
Let me ask you guys this, and I'm being very honest here, I'm living afraid of losing her but she is slowly slipping away anyway. When we go to see the MC Tuesday and the MC starts going through the separation forms I believe the MC is going to use this as an opportunity to sort of double check we both want to go through with this. I'm going to defer to my wife to answer first for sure and see where that goes - sure it will be nothing positive. When it comes to me, I don't want to play games and want to be honest but at the same time I want to be firm and maintain my dignity (it's all I have left at this point). So do I say I only see two options moving forward, 1) if my wife no longer has any feelings for me then we need to separate and sell the house and move on with our lives (or am I setting something in motion too soon here), 2) If she still has feelings for me, we should talk about this further, if for nothing else to be able to say to the kids that we tried everything to save the marriage. I'm trying to avoid grey area options like one of us moving out or building a basement apartment and one of us living in there (these are 2 options my wife suggested besides selling the house). Neither one of these are realistic.
My message to my wife on Tuesday really is that this is the fork in the road for us and our family. We either work together to save it or we tear it all apart.
On the subject of moving out, I've read all sorts of conflicting articles about one of the parties moving out, how sometimes it can save a marriage but most often on these forums I've read that it doesn't help. My W has brought up me moving out a number of times over the past 6 months with the apparent intent for her to see is she misses me and then potentially rekindle our relationship. I'm not sure she even feels this way anymore to be honest - she seems done. What's been your experience with this? I'm not speaking from a legal perspective, just potential reconciliation.
Why are you so worried about feelings?
Feelings are temporary. I wouldn't judge your actions by what you or your wife is feeling on any particular day.
What option is best for YOU?
I think I agree with darkness. I think the question is not does your wife have feelings for you or not. I think the question is, is your wife committed to the marriage.
I don't know if my H has romantic feelings for me, but he is committed to trying to feel those feelings again. For now, that's enough.
I take the long view that marriage is for life, so how you feel at any given moment is not as critical as your commitment and your recognition that in a long relationship, feelings will have their ups and down.
Those are good points and sentiments I identify with, I don't think she does. And she'll likely say she's felt this way for a long time, not just a moment.
Hey Doodler,
Do you find you take a stronger stance in your position with your W since being on the AD's? You know in your head the position you need to take, that is to move on since the wives feel we're not what they want. But you really have to be committed to following through with it - and that's not going to be easy. I plan to make a similar statement to the W at MC session on Tuesday night and see where that takes me. But I have to be committed to following it through. I guess I have to believe however she reacts. If she just says, yup, he's right, we need to move on then I need to be able to move forward right there and then with the separation planning. That's the reason why we are there in the first place (or at least that's why I told my wife we needed to go). I guess I want to find out if she is willing to go through with this.
Those are good points and sentiments I identify with, I don't think she does. And she'll likely say she's felt this way for a long time, not just a moment.
I dont think you are quite understanding me correctly. Sorry I was short in my last message; it's difficult to quote and type in detail on my phone.
You said this:
[quote-James3]So do I say I only see two options moving forward, 1) if my wife no longer has any feelings for me then we need to separate and sell the house and move on with our lives (or am I setting something in motion too soon here), 2) If she still has feelings for me, we should talk about this further, if for nothing else to be able to say to the kids that we tried everything to save the marriage. [/quote]
You are talking about deciding major life choices based on your W's current feelings. If you ask her tomorrow, she will 100% guaranteed say that she has no feelings for you. My point is that it DOESNT MATTER. Feelings change. Thats what they do. What you are saying above is like saying "Im not hungry right now, so I will never eat again" - you clearly understand that that makes absolutely no sense. So why would you apply the same idea to your wife?
MY recommendation to you is to review your goals. What actions will get you closer to achieving those? THATS what you should be using as the basis for your decisions.
Do you find you take a stronger stance in your position with your W since being on the AD's?
James,
Your question is hard to answer because the ADs are only part of the equation. I wouldn't say that the ADs help make me stronger, but they help provide a better foundation from which I can be stronger. If that makes sense.
What really made me a stronger person is my IC. She reinforced a lot of the things I'd begun to question as my wife went deeper into her fog (gaslighting and other tactics she used caused me to question myself). My IC kept me on stable ground; she let me know that I was a very good husband and that my wife's "special" friend was her EA partner.
When I look back, it seems ludicrous that I would've believed some of the stuff that my wife was spouting, but I went for it like the good little "yes man" that I was. My IC (she was originally my MC) was critical in helping me find my way back from wimpy guy to strong guy. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I can't thank my IC enough; I can never repay her for what she has done for me.
Again, in answer to your question, I don't think the ADs made me stronger, I think the ADs helped provide a better place for me to work from; the rest I had to do with the IC guiding me. And, I have to tell you, it feels really good to be strong.
Ah, I see what you mean. But by your example, she hasn't ate in months and probably feels she longer needs to (metaphorically speaking). Aside from that, I'm making it easy for her at the same time. She knows I love her and don't want us to split so I've put her in this position of power. But as of last weekend when she told me I'll always love you but just not like that anymore, that hit me hard and forced a realization that she is either moving on or taking me and my feelings for complete granted. Either way, I need to stand up and draw a line. I've tried being nice and telling her I love her etc with the goal of saving our marriage but she isn't buying in. I believe its come time to take a hard line and stop being walked on.
It's been suggested to me that I should, at the MC session say something like "I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants". And if she balks say "Then tell me why I should believe you want to be married to me." Put her on the defensive basically. She may not balk, she may agree mind you.
If I get some positive traction I might further that "Either we both work on the problems together, learn to be patient with each others faults as we work through them, and focus on finding our way back to loving each other under the same roof, or I will see no other choice but to end it."
The other thing I might say is that "I see no other option at this point because she is unwilling to look at her contribution to the dysfunction, and I won't remain married to someone who has this approach, either".
I've got nothing to lose at this point, she is slipping away. The point is to force her to really consider if she is making the right choice by taking me away from her. If she says she doesn't care for me the ramifications are to start the separation and put the house up for sale. It's not what I want but I can't go on like this and need to get some control of my life back.
My wife can sense my insecurity, knows that I love her, don't want us to split up so she can do and say whatever the hell she wants, she's in a position of emotional power over me. This cannot go on like this. My point in what I am saying above is not a threat. I really can't go on in the current situation we are in. If after this MC session her answer is that she doesn't have feelings for me then I have to move forward with separation and selling the house. If it weren't for the kids I might not struggle so much with this. It's their home and I feel guilty about selling but we can't afford two homes so if we are splitting it has be sold.
Notice how your W suddenly became worried she may be losing YOU. And all it took was to begin acting like your are moving on. Works quite well almost every time but still most avoid and delay taking that stand. The longer you take to stand up for yourself and detach the longer the agony will last. I know you've heard it before but here it is again "you can't nice her back" until you give her a reason to want to come back. You still haven't given her that reason. Hint: making her think she will LOSE YOU is a reason. You don't need to say much, remember ACTIONS are more powerful than WORDS. Notice when you didn't answer her texts it drove her to you. No words you could have said would ever do that. It was the action of not responding and the action of not attending functions with her. Get control of your actions and, FOR GOD'S SAKE, stop worrying about her feelings.
Women use their emotions, sex, or whatever makes you jump to their tune to control you. Always remember that. They don't really feel as bad as they say but they know you will step in line to appease them. Nice guy doormat syndrome is a condition women take advantage of routinely.
Who ever said "Happy wife, happy life" was a weak, controlled wuss of a husband with a wife that doesn't respect him.
The preferred viewpoint should be "if you want me to treat you like a queen then I need to be treated like a king" That is a position of mutual respect and the condition needed for a healthy M.