Summary:
Marriage was in slow decline almost from the beginning. Wife asked for separation in mid April. I moved out May 1. She had previous EA 6 years ago. Had another currently. After one week of separation she asks for D. She hasn't worked on anything, doesn't want to, puts blame squarely on me. I have been hard at work improving myself since January 2016.
Two young kids. Married over 10 years.
Link to part 1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2669236#Post2669236
Can I get some advice or encouragement??
Tonight I will see my W when I visit the kids. Each time this has happened there has been tension. Partly because of me - I'm angry - and partly because of her, she is irritable and moody. I don't want it to be like that. What I want to do is give her a nice greeting and a hug. Why? Because that is who I am. I want people to know that I genuinely am glad to see them. Even my W, who has hurt me and our family, is someone that I like seeing, albeit in tiny doses at this point.
Part of me says this isn't a good idea because I know my wife wants to eat cake. She wants this D to go smooth, so she can feel less guilty. She appears to be thinking only of herself at this point. Why should I help reduce the guilt?
Part of me also looks at LRT methods and I feel I shouldn't be too engaging. Also, part of me thinks acting this way would be a 180 and she would really take notice.
What should I do?
Originally Posted By: tjcran
Each time this has happened there has been tension. Partly because of me - I'm angry - and partly because of her, she is irritable and moody. I don't want it to be like that.
What I want to do is give her a nice greeting and a hug. Why? Because that is who I am. I want people to know that I genuinely am glad to see them. Even my W, who has hurt me and our family, is someone that I like seeing, albeit in tiny doses at this point.
Cadet said:
I think their is no reason to be ANGRY.
That is on YOU.
So the only way that you will not be angry is if you hug her and give a nice greeting?
Not sure that is a great idea, but not being angry is also a good strategy and I think you should focus on your children and how you portray your image to them.
Certainly you are not angry at them, Right?
So you need to detach from all of this.
Go visit your children, fake not being angry if you need to.
Skip the small talk with your wife and the hug.
It is pursuit and not part of this deal.
Oh, and please start a new thread as you are over 100 posts, and we can discuss this there.
_________________________
Me-62, D29,S28
I agree that I need to let go of the anger. The hug and nice greeting is not to counteract the anger, it is who I am. I'm that way with all the other important people in my life.
My W made a comment to me several weeks ago that she has never felt that I was that in to her. I've felt that she has been resistant to my shows of affection and they slowly dwindled away. Part of my GAL is being comfortable being who I am. When I greet the important people in my life I am pleasant, usually give them a hug and that fact that I am happy to see them shows.
So my question is essentially, why should it be any different in this situation? I am happy to see my W. I don't want to spend an hour talking to her right now, but I still am happy to see her.
OK I understand it is who you are but your wife may feel uncomfortable about this action.
I personally like hugs too and my prime love language is
touch, however that may not be your wifes langauge and may not make her feel relaxed.
The idea here is to get her to permanently start pursuing you.
Not for you to pursue her.
Your continued pursuit is likely to cause her to distance.
OK?
"My W made a comment to me several weeks ago that she has never felt that I was that in to her. I've felt that she has been resistant to my shows of affection and they slowly dwindled away"
Hi Tjcran
When I read this I thought - Love languages. Have you read the five love languages or His Needs Her Needs?
May be helpful, given what you posted above...
Funny that you both mention love languages. I need to get the book.
Cadet, I see your point about pursuing. Two weeks ago when I stopped pursuing she used it as a weapon against me - "This just confirms that you don't care and never did." Which makes it tough to figure out what it is that she is after.
Aha - well great minds and all that....
Yes, my only word of caution about love languages is I wouldn't want anyone to go out and read the book and really start to try and put the advice into practice. I think our R's need to be on a better footing before going all in with the love languages. However, it's good to understand more about them and there may be little opportunities to put that learning into practice as long as you primarily stick with the DBing rules.
Best of luck with things
I played it pretty good last night when I saw my W. I was very pleasant and happy. Not much conversation, but I brought up a topic about school and there was a short pleasant exchange.
I know I need to be patient and keep on this path. What is so hard is that she suddenly shut me out of her life. It didn't happen gradually, it happened one day and that was that. How can a person even do that??
Another question I have - I'm not liking our living arrangement. I moved out. I did because she asked for space so she could figure things out. Not even a week later she says she has it all figured out and wants a D. Now she gets the run of the house, all its luxuries and conveniences, and her life is minimally disrupted. But here I am stuck in a tiny basement apartment, miles from my family, my work and my life. Do I push her on this issue?
What is so hard is that she suddenly shut me out of her life.
It didn't happen gradually, it happened one day and that was that.
How can a person even do that??
YOU and almost everyone else that posts on this website.
So read as much as you can here,
you are just posting part of the script.
Another question I have - I'm not liking our living arrangement. I moved out. I did because she asked for space so she could figure things out. Not even a week later she says she has it all figured out and wants a D. Now she gets the run of the house, all its luxuries and conveniences, and her life is minimally disrupted. But here I am stuck in a tiny basement apartment, miles from my family, my work and my life. Do I push her on this issue?
This is a reason that we do not recommend moving out at first and is one of the major mistakes that people make in a divorce situation.
Possession is 9/10.
Have you consulted a lawyer?
Can you move back in?
I can also say moving out was conflict avoidant.
A behavior that you have, that should be worked on.
Cadet,
Yes to the conflict avoidant part. I will work on that.
I see it written often here about not leaving the MB or the house and it comes across as a legal chess move. I did consult an attorney and he said it was completely irrelevant. He assured me it has absolutely no bearing on divorce proceedings or settlement.
Can I move back in? Of course, it's my house. It feels like that would hurt the situation as far as the relationship goes. It would make my life better, but I predict it would fast track the D.
Today was not a good day. I struggled with high anxiety all day and still am now. Sometimes it just feels like I'm not going to get through this.
I'm really struggling with the house issue. I really don't like be so far from family, work, my social network, etc. If my W is a WAW I don't think it would be a good tactic to force the issue of my coming back to the house. If my W is a WW wife I would immediately move back in. But, I honestly don't know who she is at this point. There were the beginnings of an EA a month ago, but I honestly don't know what the status is now. Based on the little info I have it appears the EA was short lived, didn't get intense and petered out. I can't tell.
Any help and support would be appreciated!!
Tj,
Start looking into remedies for the anxiety. It is natural to be going through it, but it helps to get it calmed. I talked with my MD and he prescribed me some stuff. There are "natural" remedies, meditation, exercise, eat healthy, sleep, see an IC, etc. you will want to find what works for you. My experience was that I put it off because there was a perceived stigma and I thought I could just get through it. I needed help. And for me it was a combination of things and I am just now getting a handle on it. I would encourage that you identify how disruptive it is and how much help you may need to get through this. Then you can and will think straight.
You indicated she had an ea in the past and maybe a short lived one recently. I am not a vet on this, but my reading others info, would lead me to think you should handle this as a WW. It is an addiction as sandi would put it.
She already wants a d. Speeding it up is not the worst thing. But only you can make this decision. I would check out sandi's info. She talks about stepping up and being a man so to speak. That is why several have mentioned not moving out.
I send you my support, but my advice is just my interpretation of what I have read from others.
I always appreciate the support from others on this site.
My IC gave me an exercise to cope with the anxiety. I'll use it and see how well it controls it.
I also felt a switch go off this morning. I detached. Completely. I had a moment of clarity about everything and within minutes I felt myself detach and a huge weight was lifted.
I thought of some boundaries that I will establish. As you put it, SadHub, I will be stepping up and being a man. I've given her the space she requested, but I haven't been sticking up for my needs. I need to be with my kids more regularly. I will not feel like a guest when I am in my house. I need her to abide by agreed upon times.
Sounds like a positive step!
I'm not a vet here, but could you say something like:
"I tried living apart but it's not working for me. I need to be with my kids more, so I'm moving back into the house."
If she tries to get you to back down just calmly reassert that this is what you are doing so you can spend more time with the kids, and if both of you living in the house or MBR doesn't work for her she is welcome to take over the lease on your apartment.
Good luck with the boundaries!
EDF,
I like your line "I tried living apart but it's not working for me. I need to be with my kids more, so I'm moving back into the house." I plan to practice this line and a soft delivery. I also will practice a response if she objects.
My plan is to tell her tomorrow and move back in the following day. I expect a reaction that is subtle, but very snarky.
I have remained detached all day and this has been my most productive and calm day in many weeks.
Hope has disappeared. We talked several days ago about the living arrangement. When I pressed the issue using the quote from the above post, she responded that if I moved in she would move out and that would devastate the kids. She was right, the kids would really struggle with that and that is not what I want, they need their mom.
Visitation is really tough. I don't like seeing my W and visitation always takes place at the house. Makes no sense to drive the kids 40 minutes to spend time with me in a basement apartment. I can't stand to be there. I built that house and built that family and I can't stand to see it all taken away.
Today we talked finances and she is going to push it on that front too. I have no leverage or bargaining power. I'm losing my home, my family, my standard of living and my dignity.
I dont know. My wife complained that i can be self righteous but shes the one who wants to break the family up let her walk out the door. but thats just me. Im a good dad and i can be there for my son.
tjcran, sometimes we suffer from being to nice and accommodating and get manipulated and taken advantage of in the process. If she wants to move out because you move in ~let her. Call her game.
Damnit now im hijacking your thread but this hit me home.
Do you really need to make your life miserable just to accomodate her when for all you know she is making plans with another man. Why make it easier for her?
Why are you giving her everything when she is not giving you anything in return or worse? Man up and hold your ground and be there for your children.
I second that Natus, you're worrying about the children, then you're technically "still together" just for the children.
A line needs to be drawn in the sand or you will be in limbo forever.
Thanks for the advice.
I'm not in limbo - we are moving forward with the D. Per attorney it will take a minimum of 6 months if everything went as smooth as possible and that isn't likely.
I will make the sacrifice for my kids. If I move back in and that forces her out then the kids will be devastated. W has been their primary caregiver their entire lives. She was a stay at home mom much of the time and works some part-time now.
tjcran,
What does your lawyer say? In my experience divorce typically ends up with a 50/50 division of assets. The arguing comes into play in terms of how to value everything, but the split is usually non-controversial.
Child support is a state formula, and alimony has some guidelines but there is also some negotiation.
If the house is your biggest asset, you may want to consider selling it and splitting the proceeds. I understand that you want to keep your kids in the house if possible, but a house is just a house. As long as they have an environment where they are supported by a loving parent they will be fine in a different house/townhouse/apartment.
Try your best to avoid responding emotionally to what your wife says/threatens. It really doesn't mean anything and arguing with her is fruitless. Work with your lawyer on a settlement you would be comfortable with and then leave it to the lawyers to negotiate.
As you may know I am divorced, so I have gone through the process. People can have a good relationship with their ex post-divorce, and they can also emerge with a crappy relationship where neither parent can cross the other one's threshold.
The best thing for the kids is if you can come through this process feeling amicable toward one another. To do that, it will be in each of your best interests to be generous. If you can each approach the settlement from the perspective of generosity you'll feel better coming out.
Don't be taken advantage of, but don't sweat the small stuff either. Realistically you need to have enough to live on, and you need to have a safe place to live with the kids.
I have 50/50 custody which means the kids live with me half the time. If you can get that I recommend it.
Acc
Accuray,
That is really good D advice. Sounds like you are able to achieve complete Detachment enlightenment.
Somehow I don't see myself ever getting to that "amicable" stage though. I guess right now things are just so raw and bitter, and I don't see the D process making it any better at all. How were you able to overcome that? Every time I got an email from my D lawyer my blood pressure goes up, I was afraid any time my cell phone chimed with any incoming email during the heat of the first negotiations. It's always been a steady stream of bad news, at least in my eyes.
Accuray,
You are right - things will be divided 50/50 and child support will be based on the state's formula. I'm having a tough time right now because I am out of the house and experiencing an upside down life and for her everything is business as usual.
I'm totally okay with the kids moving. I completely agree that the kids need a loving environment, whether that is a mansion or a dumpy apartment, it doesn't matter as long as the parent is a good parent. She, however, is determined to stay.
I have committed myself to being amicable and do not want to have this morph into a battle and create bad blood between us forever more. I've been biting my tongue on several issues and my tongue is starting to bleed.
Good man tjcran, you will forget the bloody tongue pretty quickly whereas deep scars last a long time.
Don't be fooled into thinking that business is usual for her -- this is stressful for her too I guarantee.
She can be as determined to stay as she wants, but that doesn't mean she will get to.
Stay strong, you'll get through this can come out happy again.
CWOL I do have complete detachment at this point. W could run naked through the center of town with a group of cabana boys and I would laugh and wish her well. I am not impacted at all by anything she does or says and spend zero time thinking about her. That's not to say that I'm bitter or angry, the opposite in fact. If she needs a favor, I'll help her out any time, but from a feelings perspective there is just nothing at all.
I was able to overcome any ill feelings for a few reasons: (1) both W and I were generous through the D process -- I tried to argue to give her more than she was asking for and she argued to take less, (2) time heals most wounds, and (3) I've been in a new relationship for over a year now.
Starting a new relationship with someone else when you're ready is great. You learn again that you have a ton of value, that you're attractive, and with your new DB relationship skills you feel very confident about what you bring to the table. Armed with that confidence and validation, you can look back on your marriage, own what you did wrong, but also see how your spouse contributed to the breakdown. On DB folks tend to take too much responsibility in many cases. That's fine while you're in it because it provides motivation to change, but longer term it's not healthy because you have to give yourself a break.
No one's perfect, and most people cannot be "fixed", but we can all learn better tools for dealing with whatever challenges we have, and that's what it's all about.
Stay strong
Acc
Thank you for giving back so wonderfully Accuray. We need your motivation and selflessness.
The latest:
I've been feeling better and better each day. Looked for permanent housing today. Sad that I will be downgrading my comfort level substantially. Exciting that I will be establishing my own place!
I've seen a change in the kids. Today, when I told them the nxt time I would see them is Friday, they both asked why they couldn't see me tomorrow. This was great since W has been telling me that kids haven't been asking about me or anything. They probably haven't, but they obviously miss Dad.
Also, when W came home from work the last two nights she doesn't even speak to me. No greeting, barely a grunt when I tell her hello. I don't need her to be nice to me, but it makes me wonder if this isn't going so well for her. Tonight she didn't even greet the kids when she came home. WTF? I can tell I'm detaching more and more since I didn't even care that she didn't say hello. I noticed it, but it didn't bother me.
Working hard on GAL. Been lifting pretty hard for over 2 weeks and I can already see a difference. Going to happy hour tomorrow with a friend. Excited about getting a house (even if it is a rental.)
IC stated that I'm on the "fast track" to getting through this. She feels I'm doing lots of the right things and I'm thinking about this correctly.
Best day in over a month!!!!
I will see my W's parents for the first time since this all started. I know they know we are getting a D, but I have no idea how my W has portrayed all this to them. They do not know about OM.
Part of me would love to have a conversation with them and tell them that their daughter has had two affairs, both of them after she bore their two grandchildren and that she expresses no remorse. Part of me would love to tell them that yes, their daughter says she wants to do what is best for the kids, but in reality she ignores the kids so she can talk to OM, (I've lost count how many times the kids were begging for her attention and she was oblivious because she was texting OM.) Oh, by the way grandma and grandpa, your daughter's OM is suicidal, alcoholic, drug user, gun fanatic, and was recently part of a violent street fight where he was stabbed. Yes, yes, I know, I'm not perfect, I used to get defensive and I had a difficult time figuring out how to emotionally connect with her, but, I'm college educated, I have a great career, I am stable, no criminal record and I don't drink or use drugs or even smoke. I asked your daughter to try and work on our marriage many many times over the years, I admitted my mistakes and demonstrated meaningful change and committment to our vows. She concluded that her unhappiness was my fault and has turned to OM since he promises a life of happiness.
What do you think?
(If you can't tell, there is a wee bit of sarcasm in this post.)
tjcran,
I feel your pain. My in-laws and my wife's side of the family have only heard my wife's rendition of our marital issues (I'm Satan and I don't like my wife's special friend). I'll probably never tell any of them anything about what happened and why; I think it'd fall of deft ears.
I'm guessing that my wife will dig a deeper hole and the truth will slowly percolate to the surface.
tjcran,
My MIL was the first person I told about my WW's EA. The reason I did that was because I was desperate as my WW was about to leave, and my MIL knew about the first EA with the same ex-boyfriend 17 years ago. She at first swore that she will never let WW get a D, and pushed her back together with me. But alas, blood is thicker than water, and in the end she secretly funded WW's divorce retainer.
In the end, I feel telling my MIL had no impact on the D. It probably stalled it for three months. But I am glad that she knows the truth, it gave me a sense of vindication. I do feel betrayed by my MIL as she went back on her word, but she apologized to me and said WW is her only daughter so she had to relent. She realizes it is all WW's fault, she told me whatever complaints WW told her about me was no comparison for her cheating on me.
I wouldn't tell my in laws with the intention of getting them to try to stop the D. The D is happening and frankly I don't know that I want to stop it at this point. The betrayal (and I don't mean just the betrayal of the EAs, but all the other stuff too) has eroded my love and ruined any trust and I don't know that we could ever re-build a good relationship with those issues.
I'm sure almost everyone here has gone through or will go through the retribution phase and my fantasy of exposing her to her family is part of that. I'm human and I feel that everything needs to be fair, so why does she get to tell her family and friends "part" of the story - the part where I'm sure I sound like an a-hole. Shouldn't they know all sides of it?
That's right, the desire for retribution is what is holding me back right now. That and the material loss I will suffer in the D, and the sadness that S11 is enduring.
Other than that I would be able to detach properly.
CWOL,
You made me giggle, you're awesome!
Experiencing a little pain today. W and I talked about child custody and splitting assets. We are cooperating very well and the conversation is so easy. The conversation is easier than it has been in years. I've been GAL. I am now aware of healthy boundary setting and have been practicing my connection skills with other relationships and it is working really well. She has been sharing some feelings with me that I was in the dark about. Why couldn't we do this before? Why did all this hurt and destruction have to happen?
The pain has grown and now I'm hurting pretty bad. I don't know if anyone else is this way, but bedtime is the worst. The loneliness really gets to me at bedtime.
I know at some point the pain will go away, but it [censored] when you are in the middle of it.
Hey Tjcran, I was catching up on your sitch. Bed time seems to be a time everyone has trouble with. Until I got my sleep habit back to normal it was always a hard to sleep then never a good sleep.
If your not getting proper sleep that is a major thing that needs repaired. I did sleep meds to get me back to normal.
Now when I lay down I talk to God and I usually fall asleep within minutes, and sleep until my alarm goes off.
There are up days and down days, and like I'm my case I was good for months then boom, however the recovery time gets ahorter and shorter.
Thanks for stopping by my thread and responding. You helped more than you know.
I know I'm not the first person to observe this, but I need to say it (type it) anyway.
Why are so many people causing so many people so much pain? I have experienced incredible pain over the last couple months and when I look at this message board I realize I'm just a drop in an ocean. This whole experience has me hyper aware of how unhealthy so many marriages and relationships are. Why is our society/culture accepting of this? Why aren't we doing more to change this? I applaud MWD and her efforts along with several others, but MORE needs to be done.
Lots to report.
First, since I've been physically separated from my W I have come to realize that I've been emotionally abused for years. My sense of reality was warped. I had no self confidence, no self esteem and was probably depressed. My W has been manipulating things to make me feel like I'm always the bad guy. I'm not mistake free, but this marriage took two people. Now that I'm away from her I'm gaining some perspective and it hurts a lot to know she did this to me.
I talked to her sister and divulged a little of the above. Her sister revealed that she was a victim of this as well going back to childhood. It got so bad that at the age of 14 she finally moved out. Her parents didn't stop her and have never talked about it since. How f'd up is that? She said that my W has a superiority complex (I whole heartedly agree) and that my W is always working to make her feel inferior (me too!)
I bear some responsibility in that I allowed myself to live like this for so long, but I am looking forward to a bright future. Soon I will be in a place where I can have my kids live with me part time and that will be great for me and for them. I want them to see what a happy home feels like.
That's it for now.
My W has been manipulating things to make me feel like I'm always the bad guy. I'm not mistake free, but this marriage took two people. Now that I'm away from her I'm gaining some perspective and it hurts a lot to know she did this to me.
TJ
I caught up on your sitch as many of these sad stories have some sort of relevance to all of us. And I do concur with you how messed up it is that many marriages are like this today...ending up in ruin
I was reading your thread and also CWOL response about exposing things. I have thought about this myself with my sitch but similar to CWOL it could hurt me alot in the D proceedings and she knows I know...which to me...is enough.
Believe in Karma and that what comes around goes around .....so just do what is right and keep taking care of the young ones and you will find your way.
If you were made always to be the bad guy, then I hope you find one day the right type of relationship that you feel great about being with that special person....it will happen!