The rollercoaster ride continues. H is texting the ow, telling her how he feels the m is a mistake and that he feels he is getting close to pulling out.
Only, towards me- although we have very few words. He is doing things to help me without me asking (his LL is acts of service). He can't seem to keep his hands off me, he has started initiating sex more often. I see him watching me from time to time as I go about my business. He is at home a good lot of the time, even gets in bed to join me for movies.
His behaviour is all over the place. I feel I should be angry, but I may be past that. I realise my own worth and what I deserve. It is all very confusing, but he is deep in the fog and blatantly confused over what he actually wants.
But I know this, I deserve a loyal loving person. He isn't this. I have seperated the man I fell for, to this Martian who is here right now. And I can't focus on him, he is way too toxic.
Oh Cherry, I wish I could slap some sense into him! I cannot even imagine what you must have felt like reading those texts. Grrr... And then he has the nerve to jump all over you? Shaking My Head in disgust right now. ... That being said, we are not too surprised right? H has remained in the fog and all over the map.
So until he is willing to take a good, hard look at HIMSELF, and change HIS ways, I just don't see how this is going to stop. He has the family and bed with you, and then the excitement/addiction with OW. It does appear to be the best cake--high quality cake. ... However, on some level we know he has no genuine self esteem. His mind has to rationalize this gross behavior and his feelings of self worth must be steadily declining over time. His mind must be spinning. He knows this is wrong! How else can one rationalize this behavior?
You know what? I am not even going to sit here and tell you to follow the DB principles in your sitch. You can hold your head up and act as if, or you can rip into him! I lost it on H MANY times and it did leave quite the impression! Sometimes some well channeled anger can be quite effective. Something to think about.
More so I want you to take care of you and start thinking about what you want. It has been awhile now. Do you want to keep living this way? What if you decided you were done and moving on with baby? What does that look and feel like for you?
And I still can't help but think that If and When you are done and H sees that, he will wake up from this delusion. And whether you want him back without the self growth, well that can be YOUR choice.
I believe in you,
Blu
Thanks blu, right now my focus is slowly on me and baby. I'd like to think I'm getting towards the point in my head of how would this look. And what would need to be done.
I feel the next step that may arrive soon will be telling him he needs to go in another room. I think I'm trying to come up with a plan in my head. I pay him little attention, I don't follow him round. And I'm certainly done with the teary stage and letting him see me vulnerable.
I do think potentially there will be a time when the red anger will get the better of me and I will tear him a new one. I've certainly got it in my head that when he feels ready to talk about all this I will lay heavy boundaries. I have plenty of self respect which is something he lacks.
I have thought of putting a time frame on this. How long am I actually willing to hang on. And honestly I don't know, I feel that is going to be something I naturally arrive at. I guess deep inside I know he loves me, but at the same time, he's making a mug of me to this slut.
So far today, I've turned my home into a mini spa. Facemask, hair mask, nails, toenails the world. I've rearranged closets and done housework. Anything really to avoid h.
He came down and joined me in the room with baby. He has a very "woe is me look about him" lots of edgy leg shaking, head in hands etc.
And quite frankly so he should. At moments I've felt like calling him a pathetic snake I've chosen to get out the room and do something for me. I can't help but be angry at him. To one woman I'm a mistake, and then he gets in and tries jumping my bones continuously. I've started thinking of a future without him, where will we live and what will we do. It's daunting but it's do-able.
I'd love to move back to my homeland, but I would never be able to leave the country with baby without his permission. And a side of me thinks it isn't fair to take his child away, but then the other side of me thinks he should have f**king thought about that.
Thing is, can I trust this man again? I don't know. He promised he would change and he would never do this again but a year on and I'm back in the same position. And this isn't a life for me, I want to be loved cherished and respected. And I honestly don't think this toxic wasteland is possible of it
I look at my WW and I don't think that she's become a mutant anymore. This is who she has always been - stubborn, selfish, rebellious. It will take a concerted effort on her part to kill all of that, and frankly I don't think she's got the ability.
I don't think that I can ever trust her again the way i used to. Too much water has passed under the bridge. Can i live knowing what she's capable of doing to me, i definitely deserve better. I know that I do.
Cherry, you are a rock star. You have so much self-respect and see very clearly what you deserve in a relationship. He has definitely married above his station. When you make up your mind about how you're going to proceed, he had better watch out!
I love that you turned your hime into a day spa!
Thank you guys.
I think the delayed reaction has hit me. I want to cry, scream, throw things. Only I can't seem to do any of the above.
I hate him for this
Don't hate him. He has shown who he truly is, be thankful that he shows it now. You have your whole life ahead of you.
You're not reacting... Always a good thing.
So he messaged me apologising for the sex and says it won't happen again. Do I not react, or do I lay a boundary. Or point out that he blatantly doesn't have any respect for me, or himself and the mistake is his affair??
If you want to place a boundary, now may be the time. For example - I know that you are continuing to have inappropriate contact with OP and I want you to leave our marital bedroom. If you choose to end that contact and start behaving like a committed spouse, we can review things.
Yes, he may rally against that - but given his recent behaviour, what do you have to lose at this point? I'm not saying you may want to give up - not at all - but I think you may want to consider drawing a line in the sand on this behaviour.
JMHO of course, and do wait to see what others think before deciding on a course of action.
Thanks sotto, it's something like that I was thinking. I left it at not replying, and managed to bite my tongue throughout the evening, but it has been VERY hard.
He is leaving me confused. He followed me up to bed, and sat watching a movie with me again. All in silence, but usually when he's pissed with me or doesn't want to be around me, he will sleep in another room, go out, stay downstairs. Anything really to be away from me. I just really don't understand. I don't know wether I made baby steps and he is drawing closer, or he is moving further away. He says to the ow how after praying he feels closer to leave me, but it's always been after he's prayed that he tries to initiate sex so Idk. I really don't.
At least I made it through today, I managed anger alone, a few tears alone and pampered myself.
Did I understand you right that your H prays? And after praying, he feels more like leaving you for OW? I'm a little
and wonder who he prays to? Because I don't know of a single 'mainstream' spiritual movement that would encourage you to leave your wife and child...
You and me both, I think most religions are strictly against d. He doesn't say directly to leave me for her, but closer to leaving. Maybe he is justifying his wild actions and will claim it's "part of gods plan". H is rather talented at spewing.
Wow. That is twisted, indeed.
Regardless, it clearly sounds like he will use whatever he can to justify his actions, be it religion, some imagined slights, revisionist history, whatever. Don't believe a word he says.
My WW came up to me this morning and said "sorry for everything that i'm doing to us". I did not feel like validating and said "your sorry means nothing to me". She instantly said "well it's not like i was asking to get back into the relationship".
A short while later, i ask her why she will say something like that and she said "because i did not accept her sorry, that it put her back up and that's why she said what she said afterwards"
This is not a game, it's my life. I'm tired of playing games.
Cherry, your H is one confused man to use prayers in his favour. Seriously?
Have you replied to his apology for sex? Agree with sotto that it may be the right time to set boundaries.
Perhaps you could ask him why he would think to apologise for sex. Thank him for sharing his feelings with you. And if he says anything remotely related to feeling guilt over two-timing you, then you can lay your boundary down.
Something like, 'I love you and I want our M to work out. I love you because xxxx.
I appreciate that you decided that our M is worth trying for
It hurts me when I have to share you with another person, emotionally or physically. '
And then you lay your boundary down. Okay, I need others to jump in because my brain just died there and I totally svck at laying down boundaries.
Almost there JksD, but if i'm considering what the last two sessions of sex was with my WW, she was not really all there. She just wanted to get there and feel something, perhaps to validate her want to rather feel something with someone else.
She even put a pic on her family chat about a guy on top of a girl. The girl says "choke me", the guy says "are you into that sort of thing", to which the girl replies "no, i just want to die". QUITE SADISTIC.
So the boundary should really be, how does Cherry want to feel when she has sex. If she wants it to be an expression of love for her WH, then she's looking in the wrong place. She's not going to find love there, only hurt and pain.
I am able to remove emotion with my WW so i can't deny that "he" enjoyed it. I also knew what was happening so made the most of it. But do i want to do that "forever" - hell no.
I'd rather lose sex, than myself.
He was very very much there. He was very passionate, and the look in his eye- well it's the only time he looks me in the eye and looks at me that way.
He does seem very confused, and I'm wondering how to break him out of this confusion.
Me on the other hand- I've got to face the potential of bumping into the ow at work. And somehow hold my head up, all while knowing that she has been introduced as a third party to OUR m. Encouraging h to break up a family.
Fan freaking tastic
I think that you're seeing what you want to see Cherry. If he still goes to OW for "more" then he can't be getting what he wants from you. Its just cake-eating.
Imagine you are in his head. You get to come home, sleep in your bed, sex with your wife, who's desperate for some sort of feeling. Then you get to go to your OW and get the excitement of being single, risque and rebellious.
I hate to say it but only one person is getting a raw deal here. There is no confusion (except for you), it's quite well calculated.
Disregard the OW if you bump into her, she means nothing to you and never will. Like the neighbours dead ex-wife.
My WW wife also used her 'relationship' with God, prayer, and church to support her actions. That is when I know a person is very messed up. Every service we have gone to since this has started has been pro marriage and family. The services have given every focus and guidance to stop sin and return to a righteous path, and to her this means moving on with OM and letting our M go. I don't even feel that she struggles with this and says her relationship with God is stronger than ever. Its not my place to judge, just observing with a little mind reading.
He goes to ow I think to spark his ego. But no denying he is doing some high quality cake eating with me, then he goes to his trashy Twinkie.....
Ralph your w sounds just like my h with the same thought path. Somehow we are the wrong, I consider that guilt.
H contacted me to say was I still getting a lift from someone from work. I said yes, he then told me where and what he was doing "in case you think I'm up to something else". I did not rise to the bait. I simply thanked him for telling me
Two partners are always going to be an ego thing. My WW continually says "i sometimes forget how pretty i am". I clearly understand where that comes from... (whispers) "very low self-esteem". Not that i helped with that.
Nice with the bait thing. My WW is even reading out her WhatsApp messages to attempt to put me at ease. Guess she only reads out the ones where she does not talk about wanting to screw the OP.
But it is a start, nothing else. They are becoming aware of us a little more everyday. If i look at where I am now and 5 weeks ago, i'm a different person, so is she. Better, but still very broken.
Would you still think I'm moving forward? And that he's becoming more aware of me? I guess after seeing those messages the other day I thought it set me back
I'm too messed up today to have much to offer, Cherry, but I wanted to let you know that I'm still reading along and wishing you a good day.
All I can suggest is to try to forget what you read in those texts (because you can't believe anything he says anyway) and only look at his actions. Get some boundaries set up to help protect yourself. You are the one that decides if you share yourself with him physically, and when.
Sex is a powerful experience for a couple, but one that men and women often interpret very differently. For myself, and I suspect for many women, it is very much about bonding and developing intimacy. For men? well.... I'll let the guys chip in.
I know that on the day I discovered H's PA, I said to him that I couldn't believe that I'd let him in my bed the night before. His response : 'but I made you feel good, right?' It was like he'd done something generous, rather than treacherous, like he'd given me some kind of pity gift. Not cool at all.
I hope you have a good day.
(((Cherry)))
Yes for most guys sex is just a release. I'm a different kind of guy, especially with someone I care about, it is much more. I wouldn't have sex with my WW is she tried now because it would be more than just sex to me.
Thanks guys. Phoebe I'll check your sitch soon. You gave me some food for thought, his actions are somewhat better than the other week for sure. He wouldn't be near me! And he's checking to make sure I'm ok to get home. And why am I taking these texts as chapter and verse?!
Ralph88, thank you for weighing in. I admire your perspective that sex is more than a release.
I wish that your enlightened attitude would infect my H these days. He told me he and his AP are no more than 'friends with benefits." Yuck.
Just had a convo with my WW, about how we used to have sex. For me it was all about myself, every second. I was doing her a favour. For her it was getting there and how many times too. Overshare I know, but it was such selfish behaviour that I don't think we ever really made love...
See ours always had, and still is very passionate. Completely lost in each other in a anything could go we are that body confident with each other.. Wether he actually feels anything or if he is about his own agenda idk.
When he finished with the last ow, she went crazy and bombarded me with screen grabs of their messages, and one of them was "all I see when I see my wife now is that we have amazing sex".. And she didn't run a mile then ...................
Today was a sh***y day.
Maybe it's because I ache all over and feel unwell, maybe it's because I'm sleep deprived. I don't know tbh. I feel like I want to out them, I want her to feel embarrassed and I want him too. Though at the same time I know if it's not her, it's someone else.
How did I turn into a person that can allow this to happen more than once. Once was a mistake, twice- well now it's a choice. I want him to pull his head out of the clouds and look at what he's going to loose. I want him to feel the pain I feel. But I also know that all of this is way out of control, and all that I can control is me.
Work was tough today, trying to be upbeat felt an act today. One I couldn't be bothered with, but I had to be bothered with.
H kept his distance this evening. And has spent the entire night downstairs texting. I felt like ramming that phone up his ass, just as that's the place where all of his bs comes from.
I'm sorry, but thank you for the laugh about the phone, Cherry! I can so relate.
You are right, though, he is out of control, so all you can do is take care of yourself in whatever way you deem is best for you and your baby. Maybe it is time to toss his tail out. Or maybe not.
Only you know the answer, and like my therapist says to me - you need to come to any decisions you make in your own time.
In the meanwhile, do what you need to do to stay sane and don't beat yourself up about your choices so far. Every day you get a new chance to make NEW choices. Focus on those, instead.
I just wish my head and heart would catch up to each other. When I think I'm getting closer and seeing positives then a negative comes and blows it up.
Maybe you're right, maybe it is time to toss his tail out. We are on a family vacay in 2 weeks.. One he still intends on going on. I feel this may be a make or break situation. I just feel my slooooow reactions will take to long to react.
I've been doing well, it's just those messages the other day. Then the sex- now I feel he is back at avoiding me again. And I'm sitting silently, almost allowing this to happen.
Come on cherry, realise your damn worth and kick the lowlife to the ground- don't LET him drag you to his level.
Cherry, hang in there.
See what happens during your family vacay. I think what is useful is if you come up with a flow chart.
If a happens, I will do b.
If b happens, I will do c.
Wrt ow and other pos, do not worry about meeting them. I realise that it gives them power. Be in a position of strength, look her in the eyes.
If you can make her sh!t in her pants, all the more power to you.
One of my greatest mistakes was to feel ashamed of the A. But really how the he!! Foes that reflect badly on me/us?
(((Cherry)))
Today was a sh***y day.
Maybe it's because I ache all over and feel unwell, maybe it's because I'm sleep deprived. I don't know tbh. I feel like I want to out them, I want her to feel embarrassed and I want him too. Though at the same time I know if it's not her, it's someone else.
How did I turn into a person that can allow this to happen more than once. Once was a mistake, twice- well now it's a choice. I want him to pull his head out of the clouds and look at what he's going to loose. I want him to feel the pain I feel. But I also know that all of this is way out of control, and all that I can control is me.
Work was tough today, trying to be upbeat felt an act today. One I couldn't be bothered with, but I had to be bothered with.
H kept his distance this evening. And has spent the entire night downstairs texting. I felt like ramming that phone up his ass, just as that's the place where all of his bs comes from.
I've had an achy, tired day, too. I realized I hadn't been taking my vitamins for a long time. A good multi can make a lot of difference!
I think you would be in your perfect right to tell him that it is incredibly disrespectful towards you to sit in your home while you are still married and text another woman, in front of you and your children. Tell him you don't accept that kind of behavior in your home and it needs to stop.
(((Cherry))))
Grl is absolutely right. When you see the OW, hold your head up high and walk on by. You've got her number.
You hold a position of honor; YOU are the wife. You have respected your vows.
OW is dirt because, unlike my H's AP, she knows exactly what she's doing. She should hang her head in shame any time you are around. Act as is she is something disgusting stuck to the bottom of one of your beautiful shoes.
When I think I'm getting closer and seeing positives then a negative comes and blows it up.
I feel this may be a make or break situation. I just feel my slooooow reactions will take to long to react.
Cherry, you're looking for the positives in the wrong place, thats why you're always disappointed.
When i was young, my father who was a WH (got married 4 times) would promise that he'd take us out. He'd never come, and we'd be disappointed until the day we gave up on seeing him. I have not spoken with him for 3 years, it's his choice to stay away, not mine.
Everyone here always talks about patience. IMO, I think that you need patience for yourself first, before you even can think about your WH.
Cherry, I am going to post a few scenarios that are unpalatable.
A:
Your H continues with this EA which then turns into a PA. He remains in the house.
I don't want to be a negative Nancy but chances of this happening is quite possible. On this board at least, EAs seldom remain as EAs.
B:
Your H trades current POS for another OW for another EA/PA. He remains in the house.
C:
Your H does A or B and moves out and pushes for S and D. He may or may not file.
Which of these is your greatest fear? Which will be the straw that breaks the camel's back?
What will you do if confronted with the above sitchs?
You don't have to post your responses if you're not comfortable. But I figured that you have to think them through.
I get that you love your H and you feel that this is a sitch of a good man doing a bad thing. No one can tell you how to feel about your H if he's not abusive. But we will want to step in when we feel that you're getting the short end of the stick.
I am concerned that this has happened again in a very short time. Both of you need to figure out why eventually for a successful R.
I don't think that you're comfortable with the last resort technique yet. And I feel that you may not have to use it at this point.
Right now, you really should decide if you're going to snoop on his phone again. Is there a need to? How will you use the intel?
If you just want to snoop to know if he's straying and only for that reason, it will only hurt you more and more. And it will not help you anyway in repairing your M or trying for a R.
If you want to snoop for intel to tear them new ones, then you have to be strong enuf not to let what you know tear you apart. And wise enough to know how and when to go for the jugular.
Tbh, I feel that you may want to use a mishmash of strategies.
Plan A plus dbing plus boundary setting. And keep close at hand your strategies for ripping them new ones if and when the occasion calls for it.
to add to JksD, This is a link that Si_07 gave me...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=24 Here's something from it...
He does NOT hold the cards.. YOU do. But you are throwing them away worrying about HIM. You have the cards to YOUR life and what YOU DO with it.
Suppose ten years from now he's gone and still hasn't grown up or contacted you... do YOU still want to be where YOU are NOW? Pining away for someone like that?
Look at you now and fast forward ten years and ask yourself what are YOU doing to get where YOU want to be in ten years time?
Focus on THAT.. YOU have ALL THE CARDS for that.. NOT HIM... NOT NOW...
You may be loyal to HIM, but you aren't to yourself if you waste another second pining for him.
Let him go, enjoy your life, do something productive. If he grows up while you are doing that then that's great... but don't sit around waiting for that to happen.
You are betraying YOU if you do that...
Let me put it this way... as he IS NOW... NO SINGLE FEMALE on this ENTIRE FORUM would so much as TOUCH HIM right now because of his immaturity...
So why are YOU wasting YOUR LIFE PINING for him?
Btw, sweetheart, I am not asking you to give up on your M or your H.
I am of the camp that believes that dbing is both for yourself and the M. One dber, I think it was Train, commented something along the lines of it's called divorcebusting and m5ot save our souls for a good reason. I see it as saving ourselves first, then saving the M.
We can see that you're doing well in the GAL and not being clingy or pushy part. What hurts is that we can also see that you are thrown off by the latest text messages and by skanky OW. We dont want these to eat away at you.
I am also going to throw something out here. On the road to R, I feel that, especially during the transition period, there may be some cakeating involved. Does your H's R with the OW seem to be dying down or heating up?
If it's heating up, there is going to be a lot more cakeating. How would you feel and deal with this?
And if you're not comfortable with verbal boundaries, you can show them through your actions. But the latter is dicier because your H will also have to second-guess why you are rejecting his advances.
You dont have to make any decisions now.
And just in case I sound heavyhanded here, I want to reiterate that I am just throwing out the worst case scenarios and I am still rooting for your M.
I just thought that you might want to perhaps consider other strategies and keep them handy in your pocket.
BTW, Train is one of the dbers who adopted the plan a plus dbing plus boundary setting approach. Perhaps you can read up on her threads.
Guys thank you all so much for the support and advice, I really appreciate the care and support and I really needed it.
I'm feeling better today, he is so all over the board that I shouldn't look at him. He's confused or he's lost idk, but that's toxic. And if he was this way when I met him, I wouldn't of let him in my life.
And you're right, I should not be ashamed in front of ow. She's a disgusting pos too who knows the score. Eurgh.
I dunno if it's heating tbh, he is still at home rather a lot, still coming to bed and still kind of getting close in bed but not initiating anything. I guess this is some confusion.
I need to think of what kind of woman I want to be. I want to be the strong me, business woman, mom, and fiesty Latina. Your right- I have a child that looks up to me and loves me, and that's who I need to be strong for and set an example too.
Feeling somewhat calmer
Good for you, Cherry. I'm glad you're in a calmer place today.
Got a little angry again, don't even know what triggered it. Hate how the waves come. Trying to accept it, and let it pass.
So closes another day. Briefly saw ow who had seen me and then walked into a turnstile that didn't turn on her and kinda winded her a little. I know I should be an adult or concentrate on her, but karma is a bigger bi**h than I could ever be. Due to my work commitments I have barely seen h today. He said a rather more upbeat hello and got in bed.
I have tried to stay calm today, and I was a lot calmer than yesterday. I had so much work on I was busy, I laughed, I was rather fabulous. I conferenced with some big bosses and I took s meeting outside in the sun. I focused on me, I focused on the sun. And most importantly my child.
I realised whenever I think of h and get those awful flashbacks, it's to the OLD him. Not the current him. I need to seperate these men. I need to grieve as if the other has gone. Which is easier said than done with his evil twin looks a lot like him.
Cherry, you ARE fabulous!
At my last visit with my grief counselor, I told her that I almost felt like my original H had died. She said that, in that case, perhaps we ought to have a small funeral ceremony for him.
She wasn't kidding!
Thanks phoebe. Sounds like your grief counsellor actually has a bit of a funeral. I'm not sure I could do that. I think I'm trying to protect myself by acting like all of this isn't happening. I need to get it in my head it is and take charge.
Today is a new day, slight anxiety- and I don't know why!! Got an early finish from work, so going to pick baby up and do something fun. Just don't know what quite yet- but I know I need to do something for my sanity.
Just had a thought of when h delivered his ILYBNILWY speech. He mentioned about how I met with a male friend a few months back for a coffee, and said if you have male friends I can have female. Then a day after, I discovered the ow.
I'm wondering if he is not trusting of me, although I haven't given him a reason to. Or maybe he worries about me straying. Idk.
It's just a lame way to make himself feel less guilty. H did the same to me, would rage about an evening I went out to chat with a male friend and his friend again, although he knows perfectly well there was no reason to. It was just convenient to cast doubts on me to deflect from what he had done.
Maybe he was justifying his own 'friendship' to himself Cherry? x
Yeah true, it most probably a way to justify his own "friendship". Ugh
Busy day again with baby. Did pretty good at getting on with things. H is "out" tonight. He messaged to say. I just messaged him back to say thanks for letting me know.
Sometimes I worry that my validating answers to this kind of thing make me sound deluded like I think everything is ok. This db-int can be hard at times
HI Cherry,
My WW sent me a TM about an hour ago to ask if our S was sleeping. I never responded. I think maybe its better to not respond, since i'm not then implicitly approving by sending a thx back.
If she wanted to know how he is doing then she should not have gone out. I think i need to start creating these boundaries for when the big day comes.
I totally see your point ddj, and I was so close to ignoring. But then I remembered what I had previously been told about encouraging his good behaviour (like a child) so was in two minds. So kept it short.
He's just returned, looking rather sorry for himself. Strutting in the way he always does when he wants me to initiate sex, almost undressed. I shall be strong
Be strong cherry, you're worth more than pity sex. One thing though, who always initiated sex between the two of you?
I'm rethinking the whole no answer thing. I think if its a question, then perhaps answer. Otherwise no answer could be fine.
Hey Cherry,
I think you need to stop responding to H with a thanks for letting me know. I don't think he has the fear of losing you. No reply can sometimes be. Seen as rude so maybe a simple okay or something short would be better.
Also, please do not have sex with him while you know he is openly speaking poorly about you with another woman.
Thinking back to that speech (ILYB...) I think everything they said about us respectively was all about them and what was going on in their heads.
I remember very clearly how utterly angry my H was. It wasn't a conversation we were having, a dialogue about how unhappy he was etc, I had more of a feeling of someone being sick all over me. I felt dirty and covered in slime. I had never had that feeling from him before.
I reckon we've all been on the receiving end of that level of anger from someone at some point in our lives (family, work colleagues...whatever). But we don't expect it from out Hs. And that's one of the really confusing things.
I'm trying to remind myself that whatever he has said and is saying, that whatever he's done and is doing since he's been in this fog, is all about himself.
Not to say that I haven't had a part to play in the journey there's been to get to this point, but his wayward behaviour? And his justifications for it? Not my responsibility.
So the past 2 days or so. H has cooled off the texting. Not often on his phone and leaves it hanging around. I haven't snooped as reading things just leads to anxiety.
All last night he was trying to spoon against me/be close. Though this morning he is back being short with me, appearing grumpy. I know this is about him so got up and went about my day.
I got a message to say he has booked me in for a pamper day. I thanked him though my head is spinning. Is he softening?!
Wow, he's definitely noticing you. Trying to break down your walls, but don't forget that it's his OWN walls that need to fall first. ENJOY!
Cherry, maybe you could try to324's 'ok' if you suspect that you may be validating wayward behaviour.
^ what ddj and t0324 said about the intimacy. You don't have to be rude or standoffish. Just civil and firm and not giving in.
What your h said about why he came back got me thinking. It seems that he values the feeling of home that you and s gives him.
I was reading one rather old thread by dia. She was one strong woman and she used the strategy of gentle, non -pressuring pursuing, rather like plan a. She adjusted her methods according to how warm her h was.
She managed to move back in with her wwh While trying to look for a job.(She slept on the couch tho) Her h was still involved with ow2 who lived far away from him.
Anyways, what she did was to create that homely feeling while she was there. She did what she would have to do for her s and herself anyway, even if she hadn't been staying with her h.
Every day, before her h came back, she would spend a little time freshening up and tidying up the place. And she was a fantastic cook.
I was thinking that perhaps you may want to consider her strategy if you feel that h is stepping closer towards you?
But please remember to be cautiously optimistic. This dia was always ready for a kick in the gut and she was very good with having no expectations, monitoring what works and keeping a positive mien regardless of what crap gets thrown at her.
I like the theory JksD, my WW really wants us to make our meals together and eat together. I think that its more about having a sense of family than cake-eating.
She never had that before we moved in together so she clearly misses it when i withdraw that connection. Keeping a firm head on yourself can be tricky though.
That is kind of the method I go for, and I did the last time. Sandi gave me great advise that if we eat a meal at a set time. Have it prepared, if he eats with us great. If not- it's on the stove.
I've tried to keep a sense of normality amongst this for my own sake. And I think he likes the sense of home. When I was in Paris, that wasn't there, meals weren't prepared, the house wasn't tidy. And that general busy homely feeling was gone.
He too has never had that being brought up, and although he isn't really that warm to me or baby. I think the sense of home is what he likes.
I am trying to not get too optimistic, been out gal- img with a friend and had a pamper while she watched buba. I shall see what works and just keep on keeping on and see what happens.
Noted regarding the texts, I'll keep a simple "ok". And you are right, all the spew that flows is honestly about them.
Just part of me hates conflict, I avoid these serious talks at all costs. But I know one is going to be needed. I know I just need a clear head, validate and not get emotional.
I am trying very hard to put in place, when speaking to anyone, a case of listening and thinking before responding. I feel this may be key
You might also want to add "accept conflict" as part of your new you. I always thought that i was good with conflict, i relish it - yet, i could not even stand up to my W, when i knew that i was going against my own values.
I think I need to. Only I'm not sure how exactly I prepare for accepting that, or deal with that. It's like if it's something I know is going to hurt, or that I don't want to hear- I shut down
Cherry, you sound like you're doing great in your job. I am sure that in your job you will come across difficult sitchs, superiors, colleagues and clients. How do you deal with them? I think that they require very much the same skillsets.
Hi Cherry. Add the decreased texting and the pampering day to your list of small baby steps, and, again, don't try to read into them too much. Just keep your admirable cool.
As BluWave says - mind reading just doesn't work.
Good on you for sticking with your boundary; as long as there in an OW, he hasn't earned the privilege to be with you physically, and he needs to realize his loss. You are an incredible woman, and plainly he's a fool to risk losing you.
So guys I need a little advise. All night long h has been hugging up against me, holding me. This morning, I tried to gently remove his arm so I could get out of bed. He suddenly snapped why don't you just push me off you. I calmly asked what this meant. This led into a conversation regarding the apology text for sex (which he said he took my no answer to be agreement). He asked me how I felt when he sent that. I replied honestly that I didn't know what to say as I felt a little confused and hurt. I told him despite what he had told me, i do still love him and that I can't just switch that off. As soon as I said that he held me. Tight. Not in a sexual way, in a holding tight way. He asked how did I see our vacay going, I said that I would make the best of it either way. And that a change of scenery can often help. He said "or mask problems". He continued to hold me but I was already late for an appointment.
I suggested to him that I had to go out now, but if he wanted to talk later we will. He agreed and then told me his plans for the day.
I know now that I am all set for some difficult conversation potentially later. One I would usually avoid like the plague. But it needs to be done.
I know he's running a bit scared right now, but his actions are looking more promising. If anyone has any advise, insight. Please let me have it! I need to prepare myself
Stat calm, Cherry. You can do this. I am praying that it's a good R talk for you.
Let him lead. Listen, really listen. As much as possible, validate. Restrain the urge to butt in.
(((Cherry)))
I hate to say this but be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.
Thanks grl. Trying not to set any expectations for myself except that I need to be prepared to listen. Really listen. Then validate and validate some more.
He hasn't been texting the past few days, that's a positive. And he has left his phone hanging around at times. Not taking it everywhere with him.
I know whatever his feelings, are his feelings. And that I need to accept that even if I don't agree. I'm starting to think he has been taking my getting on with it attitude and declining his initiation of sex as I'm pushing him away. For the first time in a long time he spoke to me like a human. We even had a few laughs, and he held me without initiating sex.
Whatever this conversation is, I guess it needs to happen so I know where I stand
You go, Cherry. You sound strong. You can do this. The signs do seem rather positive and I am hoping it pans out well for you.
Perhaps we can do a trial run here of some things that may happen.
If he probed you about your rejection of sex, what are you going to say? You think you will let him know that you know about the texts?
What other things do you think he will say? Good to have some stock responses ready.
And if he says he's sorry and wants to try again, I think it may be time to draw some really clear boundaries.
Hi Cherry,
Have you worked with a DB coach? They are a great resource and can help you at this point.
i am sending you positive vibes and have you in my prayers. Be cautious, validate often, stay true to yourself, and I am pulling for you.
Thanks for the support guys, it means a lot.
I think the rejection might come up, I'm not sure wether to mention the texts as I feel that may open up a whole other can of worms. I can however say that I was respecting his wishes when he said he didn't feel comfortable. Or say that he said he didn't love me so if that was the case I didn't feel comfortable.
He may mention that he doesn't feel confident that this relationship can work. Something must have led him to that decision, and nothing has really been done to work on this, so he is probably going to have doubts this can work.
Actions however do speak louder than words, and that holding me this morning felt more than a hug. It was the tight grip of someone who doesn't want to let go of another person
If he says that he's not sure if the R will work, perhaps you can say something like I am sorry you feel this way but I want you to know that I still believe in our M. Or something to the effect.
Cherry, I agree with Sadhub. You may want to look into phone coaching.
Here's another hug for you to soothe your nerves. Rehearse, visualise and act as if everything is going to be okay. Maybe you can play with s to take off some of the nervousness?
Cherry, you're the one that does not want to let go. I'm not even touching my WW and mine is only an EA. Your situation is alot worse and you're not allowing yourself to let him go. You're also still in his head and thats not where you going to find your emancipation.
My WW just sent me a text of how much stronger we are now, but she's still going out with new friends tonight. A hug is not an action.
Cherry, this reminds me a lot about H - it was very exhausting because it was a rollercoaster all the time, push-pull, back and forth. As soon as I melted, he pulled away again.
Your H needs to know what he wants and make a decision and commit to it - not go by what he *feels* because feelings are subject to change without notice.
Painter you are right, and I think that is where boundaries would need to be put in place. I know in my head that I can't end up back here every few months. I just can't.
Thanks grl, hugs are appreciated, I already had plans with baby today and stuck to those. I didn't want to cave to h and be so readily available to him.
Ddj, you're right- in a way I don't want to let go. If I did I wouldn't be here fighting for my m. I do know that however hard I will cope either way. My h has been having what I predict is an ea. I've no reason to believe it's a pa.
Hi Cherry. All I can do is wish you the best. I am pulling for you and hope that this difficult conversation may also be a positive one for you both.
Hugs.
Thanks for the support phoebe. It has not happened as I have been out all day, then when I did I was trying to get teething baby to sleep.
He is not as openly close to me in the day as he was this morning. It's like I get the more vulnerable him in bed.
Been doing a lot of reading and re reading cadets validating thread. I've carried on today exactly as I have this whole time. Friendly but slightly distant.
As he left, he did fill me in on his plans, which is a first. He usually just goes.
Sounds like another potential baby step that he shared his plans. Note and move on.
I think that what you are doing is perfect - carrying on like this morning didn't happen. If he chooses to follow through and initiate a R discussion, then you have prepared yourself mentally, and if he backs off and skips the conversation, your behavior has remained consistent.
You're a tough lady. I need to take lessons from you.
Thank you phoebe. The r talk didn't happen, he came home got in bed and spent the whole night holding me again.
I decided to remain consistent and not initiate any conversation. He initiated one and talked quite upbeat. Again, he was going to go out for a couple hours, he filled me in on his plans and told me when he would be back. Trying to not get hopes up and start to become the persuer- just get on as I have been. A little mysterious but upbeat.
He left his phone hanging around again. There will be times it is downstairs with me while he is up. I haven't snooped as again, I don't think it will help.
I guess consistency is key. Do you guys think I am doing right not iniatiating the r convo? In my opinion, I told him when he wanted to talk we will talk. So as far as I am concerned- I offered.
Definitely great Cherry. Initiate no convo at all. My WW started with her convo about her apparent turn-around yesterday. I made no requests besides transparency. Guess that didn't even last 24 hours.
So yeah, my R is dead.
But I am not.
Consistency is also the key. You never hit your target when you slip and don't get up again, so just keep walking.
Cherry, I may have missed this - but do you go out? Do you tell him he needs to stay home with his child so you can do your own thing?
That could also help break up the situation where new fathers feel shut out from the mother-child union, if that's something that's going on here.
Thanks for the support guys. And you're right ddj, consistency is key.
@painter, yeah I do occasionally or he takes care of him while I get some things done. Recently while in the height of his fog, when I've gone out- he has decided too as well and palms baby off with his mom
Good job on not initiating that R conversation. Also- good on you for not looking at the evil phone. it only makes us feel worse.
Again, I need to take lessons from you. I wish I could go back to the last time I saw H and have myself take both Xanax and a STFU potion! We can't change the past, but it's hard to not to agonize over everything we've said or done.
Anyway, keep on doing what you're doing. Baby steps.
Thanks phoebe. It's hard in a way not to get happy when he is showing baby steps. A part of you wants to initiate talks or even general conversations, the other part is angry and worries that we could end up back here a few months down the line again which I want to avoid.
He has been more upbeat, watched some tv together in bed. Not much conversation but when he has he has been upbeat.
Staying steady, cool calm and collected
You're doing good, Cherry. Don't initiate the R talk unless you are ready to set the boundaries. Initiating the R talk will be pursuing and he may feel cornered into making a rash decision.
These seem like baby steps in the right directions. Is there any way to find out if he was where he said he was? Trust but verify.
Maybe you can wait for others to weigh in as well.
He had a recipt showing where he was and a buddy of mine saw him where he said he would be with the guys. So I guess he was telling the truth.
R talk still hasn't happened. He seems in much higher spirits, I let him initiate the conversations.
I guess I'm feeling a tad confused as he hasn't yet apologised for any actions. He has just started to creep closer. Nights are still the same. Lots of hugging, he initiated sex. We ended up having sex. I know the jury is out on cake eating,,but sex has always been a thing that has kept us close together. From what my h has said before, when sex is less frequent, he seems to feel pushed away from me
Why are you checking up on him? I know it satisfies our desires to do so, but it doesn't really tell much. You are worrying about things you can't control and trying to be in his thoughts and mind. Besides you are basing you happiness on what you find out in your snooping. I think you really need to establish what is would look like if he was committed to your R, and then worry about you until when/if that stuff starts to happen. Sex.. Hmm 2x4, why but the cow when the milk is free. Are you content with this non committed free sex? Is it fulfilling you and your needs, or are you doing it for him or to convince him to be in the R? Is the sex stopping you from detaching? Are you willing to contract an std or worse? Others may differ... Sex is great, but sex in a committed M with 2 loving people is the goal, will you get there this way?
Perhaps try to detach during sex, he might sense the difference and then not know what to do. i did it with my WW at the start of this. I think it helped wake her up at least for a short while.
Cherry,
I get the sense you are bright, successful, a great W & mom, fun, sexy, and the full package! You are also very smart and have good insight into your sitch. Honestly, I think we all agree here, that you ARE the W that only a fool would leave!
But, we also agree that H is a fool. A big cake-eating fool! As I read your threads, I can see that you are going in the same circles, and you can't seem to break the pattern. I also still see some mind-reading and assumptions.
Here are a few examples I am seeing:
-You are assuming that H is cooling off his A because of how he treats you that day, less text messages with OW, or how long he holds you. I am sorry, but I don't think you can know that.
-You are assuming that when he holds you tight, he is hanging on to his R with you or not wanting to let you go. I don't think you know that either. It could be as simple as he is feeling guilty for what he is doing! My H felt guilty all the time and that is not what brought him back.
-You also seem to think that if you don't have sex with him, he will see you as being cold or withholding it. You have no idea what is going on in his mind! But what he does know is that you are available for sex no matter how committed he is to you and your M.
As long as he is not fully committed to you and the M, the mind-reading will never work. I think he has been waffling around and throwing you crumbs for a long time, and perhaps you have been accustomed to this. Well I am sorry to say this, but I personally think you are way too good for this treatment! I know that your heart is in the right place, but I don't see him respecting you as you deserve.
I know it hurts. I have been there and I know first hand the pain and fear. And especially with young kids! But I think it's time to really start asking yourself the tough questions. Can you picture your life without him and what does that look like? Have you dropped the rope and are you prepared to, and really follow through? What is your biggest fear on letting go of him and is it worth staying in this open marriage for?
I am sorry for the 2*4s. But I really like you and I think you deserve so much better. You deserve a H that will commit to you, this family, and do anything to keep you! I'm just afraid that part of the problem here, is that he knows he doesn't have to do anything at all and you will always be there.
-Blu
Cherry, I have to agree with Blu. You really are worth so much. It's time that you started believing it, too.
Noting baby steps is one thing, but the muddling of your emotional needs with his physical needs creates confusion and only benefits him.
Sleep well, Cherry, and know that I say this because I think you deserve a strong commitment from your H, not this wishy-washy closeness at night and distance during the day situation.
Thanks guys for the honesty, I needed that.
You're all so right. He is so up and down, and when he throws me crumbs, I take them and forget how far I have travelled. He doesn't have the fear of loosing me. And I think that enables his behaviour- because it's all risk free then isn't it. He satisfies his needs whilst having the back up of me and the security and warm feeling of family that come along with me.
I do have the fear of loosing him I think. And I think it's what I HAD that keeps me holding on, and the fact he is, and always will be the father of my child.
But you are right, I need to start believing how much I am worth. I do deserve someone fully in who will treat me right. And I need to get there.
His warmness does seem to have cooled again. Left without saying a word again today to go to work. And then after reading all you guys' posts. It hit me like a truck. And now I feel rather foolish to fall into such a trap
I don't think its falling into the trap, talking about myself here, I think we're not getting out of the hole in the first place. Never did, at least with our hearts.
Show him that you don't need him. Make him think that you do not care about him. Don't be cold, just put in place the boundary that his behaviour is unacceptable. And what you're doing is to protect you.
i'm finding it difficult to protect my heart, don't think that I ever will. But i've got to try.
Hi Cherry,
For whatever it's worth, I don't think you are a fool at all. I think H is the fool! I can't even imagine what it is like to know that he is with you, but not fully committed to you and your M.
I just want you to know that it is much easier to sit here and tell you my opinion, but I am not in your shoes. And, quite frankly, I can't afford them! LOL. ... Like I said before, my H was all out and then all in, and while he felt very guilty and threw me crumbs in between, I did not have to live with him and share a bed with him knowing that his mind was somewhere else.
So as I sit here and give you all this feedback, I realize I don't know what it's like to be in your position and live with him there. I am just mainly concerned with what this does to your inner core self; to be so loyal and committed to this man, knowing that he is not. He has you dangling by a thread and it is so unfair to you!
I would never sit here and say what you need to do, that you should leave him, drop the rope, etc, and I would never judge you! I am too busy judging myself :-) However as I read through your threads, the thought that keeps coming back to me is, "this fool has no idea what he is ruining. As soon as she is done and out--really done and moving on--he is going to have the biggest wake up call of his life!" Maybe by then it will be too late for him, I dunno.
None of us can tell you when you should reach that point, and that is your decision only! I just hope if and when that day comes, you don't look back and feel that you contributed to allowing him to hurt you for too long. You get to control how much he is allowed to control your emotions and self worth, and only you!
-Blu
Thanks blu, it is unbearable at times. It's like he is there. But not there, he throws the crumbs and I seem to pick them up.
I think that you are right, one day maybe I will decide I've had enough, and he will get a wake up call. Or maybe he won't, it depends how lost in this he really is.
It is tiresome for the soul to let him drag me down, so I'm going to try to pick myself back up again. Dust myself down, and get on with concentrating on me. A part of me wants to ask him what the last few days have been about. But then that would be pursuing a r talk. And I don't want to do that.
Cherry, I spent the entire day thinking/anxious about what my WW was thinking. That drove me mad! Just ask.
Try this... (i can't believe i'm giving validation advice)...
"You appear to have been down for the last few days, would you like to speak about it?" or "I can't help but notice that you appear somewhere else, anything on your mind that you might want to speak about?"
That's not R speak, maybe his waiting for you to ask, maybe he's not. You're not going to know if you don't ask. Then sit and listen; listen like you have never listened before, just nods and uh-hums. NO words. Pull it out of him without words, and put your mind at ease.
Cherry, I've been thinking about you all day.
Don't beat yourself up about anything that you do or don't do. There is nothing foolish about wanting to save your marriage to the father of your child.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - you are an incredibly strong woman, worthy of all kinds of DB awards!
Every day you have to think about what is happening in your R because it is happening in real time. every day he is there and yet not there. I can't even imagine how difficult that must be. I struggle so badly, and my R is in a place of complete stasis. Nothing changes day to day, and there is no contact to speak of. It's just me and my head and heart, trying to find a way through.
I hope that you have a good night's sleep, and that tomorrow brings you something beautiful, like a hug and a kiss from your little boy.
Thank you phoebe. I feel I'm going back to a beginners mind. There is positive signs, so I shall acknowledge but not obsess.
I pick myself up, dust myself down and back to business, focus on me.
And I think it's time for a new thread