someone asked me to start a new thread. so here it goes
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2666794#Post2666794i am very confused on what i should be doing right now. my coach says that i should not be going dark with her right now. that i should treat her like a sister, due to where she is mentally, emotionally. That i should at least give her some hope of a relationship with me in the future.
the EA is still going on to the best of my knowledge.
sandis 37 rules, says and this forum says that i should not be really talking with her much. that i should be pretty much completely dark from her.
talk about a 180....these viewpoints are exactly 180 from each other. And i don't know how to do this now, or what to do.
e04355,
Yep, I've struggled with the same issue; the stuff on the forum says one thing and the coach says another. I think they're both correct, they're just not correct for every situation.
Presumably the coach has a lot of experience, so I'd start with the coach's recommendations first, then if that's not working, maybe try some of the stuff on this forum.
My wife is in an EA (no PA and I don't think she wants PA). The problem with the EA thing is that she's getting her emotional needs met by someone else so if I "go dark" I withdraw even further. I tried doing 37 rules and I think it was the wrong thing in my case. You certainly have to back-off and stop being needy and stop pressuring, but you also need to be loving. It's a difficult balance.
Good luck; I hope you get things figured-out.
Yes it's insane, you don't know whether to hold on or let go, but you need to do both at the same time.
I really have no idea if I'm pushing her further away. If I think real hard about it now... Does it really matter? It's her choice if she wants to leave. I've gotta pick up my own pieces.
We are in this spot because we never understood the long term consequences of our actions. I don't think that anyone can really predict life. All we can do is what we think is best, and hope for the best.
Which "rule" are you referring about going dark?
One thing I struggled with was going dark but not ignoring H entirely. That is perceived as game playing and will frustrate them more. If we care for this person and hope they will come back, then we should not be causing them further anger at us.
Sometimes I would ignore H to try and show him I was moving on. Now that we are back together--and talked about everything--he has told me that he hated it when I ignored him. He thought it was petty and I was doing it just to hurt him. So even though he was thick in the fog, he still had some good insight into where I was at.
Let her initiate contact. Don't ignore her or play games. Listen and validate so she knows you are safe. But most importantly, take the focus off her and be too busy and awesome to worry about her every move. You can't anyhow. That will gain your confidence and that will make her think twice about giving up.
Sandi,
Actually, going dark isn't a rule, but it was recommended to me after my wife filed for divorce. Unfortunately, I mixed and matched things in my sentence. (I grew up in Miami so Broken English is my first language.)
i apologize sandi. i misspoke about the 37 rules. it says nothing about going dark. i am sorry.
with further review, the problem that i am currently facing is that the first re: to my original post says to DETACH.
when i read the detachment thread, it says to give her space, and establish emotional boundaries.
rule #1 in the 37 says to not pursue. without me pursuing her that takes away a huge portion of any interactions between us.
in one of the treads i was told not to develop any kind of friendship with her. and to not stay and chat when i picked up the kids.
what has happened, is that the only thing she is interested in, is developing a friendship with me and talking about what went wrong in our marriage. then, i am left with right now, is talking about the kids. and that causes me to go dark with her.
a good for instance is she is going on a trip this weekend. and she wants to talk tonight when i pick up the kids about when she will be back and when she will get the kids back on sunday. im all well and good with that. the problem is that, she has been asking me for days to tell her how long i have been unhappy in our marriage, and i know that she will initiate that conversation while im there. so at that point. i can either tell her how i felt, i can ask her to talk about it later, or listen to her side of it and then not give my part.
none of those choices sound like a good choice to me. and that is what causes me to go dark. i dont want to have an argument, i dont want her to accuse me of shedding positive light on a subject when she see it as negative. and i dont want to feed her all negatives about the past either.
ive read the books, ive read the threads, ive talk to a coach, i participate in forums. and i still can't make sense of it. there is something that is blocking my brain from understanding what i need to do when it comes to real life.
This program has worked for tons of marriages. I just need to have my moment of understanding of how it all works. and how to apply the techniques and when.
Hi E,
I am not a vet but I have had so many foot in mouth moments and db fails that I finally managed to figure out some stuff.
This is what I understand about going dark/ NC. NC is a concept that can be found in many other websites and programmes. It basically just means cutting off all contact.
Here, going dim seems to be a less extreme version of NC. A dber once described it as a dimmer switch; you decide how bright or how dark you want to go.
Both NC and going dim is a means of self-preservation. You minimise contact so that you can minimise hurt from the WS or WAS. It helps you maintain your dignity so that you will not beg, cling or pressure your S. It gives you time to heal and regain some semblance of composure after the mayhem of BD. This is also the time to GAL and work on yourself.
Once you are on more even keel, you monitor the situation and decide if you want to go dimmer or brighter. If by then, you have the stfu potion always ready in your pocket, and you can act as if and have no expectations, I feel that you can go brighter. Monitor the results and see what happens.
Going brighter doesn't mean initiating R talks. It may mean initiating some contact or not avoiding contact. And when there is contact, there must be a new and (genuinely) improved version of you (us).
I would think that every contact should be sort of a sales pitch. But you must also back up your sales pitch with a genuinely good product.
I know people feel strongly about dbing being more to save oneself. I feel that it should be for self and the M. I do agree that we have to save ourselves first before we can do anything about the M first.
what has happened, is that the only thing she is interested in, is developing a friendship with me and talking about what went wrong in our marriage. then, i am left with right now, is talking about the kids. and that causes me to go dark with her.
Well first of all, I believe nearl all WW's wants to be friends with the dumped H, b/c it is major cake eating for her.
Why does she want to discuss the MR? IDK, but I guarantee you that she benefits from doing it.......or she would not push for it. What does she get out it? Another opportunity to bash you? A chance to vent more of her anger, cry, blame, play the victim, guilt you.......what?
If this is all she wants you around for, why would you want to pursue her?
i agree. my question is this. im fine with keeping distance for now. but she initiating talking from time to time.
should i talk to her at all? or just keep it kids and logistics until she comes running back home?
i ask only because i really don't know the answer. also, my coach recommends to become slightly friendlier to her right now.
There is a difference in being friendly to someone, and having a friendship. Perhaps in your attempts in detaching, you come across as being cold or angry. You can be detached and still conduct yourself in a polite, even friendly manner. However, you don't have to become their BFF.
If she initiates a R talk, then my advice is to just listen and not contribute to the discussion. If she starts down a bad avenue, you can always dismiss yourself. Nobody is forcing you to stay there and hear what she has to say.
thank you for that info. this is one place where i need to grow. i have always been a hot or cold person. and i have come across as way too cold to her lately. or so im told. i need to learn how to be warm, just warm.
im going to attempt to listen and not really say much, just act mysterious.
e04355,
I used to think I was a good listener and fairly good at communication, but I've decided that I've been awful at both. I'm working on it.
I don't believe I'll ever master the mysterious stuff. I've always told my wife where I was going and what I was doing. I'm not sure I could leave the house without giving away my entire mysterious dude plan. There is one thing I'm considering; I might go to Goodwill and buy some dresses and hang them in my closet and then put some sex change information in strategic places around the house. That might get her thinking.
e04355, I think you answered your own question. It's not about being hot or cold--this is the opposite of detachment--and both are forms of a strong attachment.
Listen, validate, and be polite; it's not about being hot or cold. How would you treat your neighbor--they are being a pain in the blank, but they are still your neighbor, so best to get along, but at the same time create space. Also have boundaries--you don't have to let anyone just rant at you--and this is healthy and normal in any R. If she gets carried away with complaining or blaming, you can respectfully exit the conversation. You can create boundaries, while maintaining respect, "W, you seem really upset about this. I hear you and I am sorry you feel this way. Right now, you have given me a lot to think about, but I don't think it helps to talk about this any further." Conversation over.
Mostly though, keep the focus on you and your happiness. You can't read her every move. Women are attracted to strong and confident men, not ones that wait around or are needy. So chin up and keep on being a great H and dad that you are.
good news !!!! my waw suckered me into coming over tonight and talking for 2 hr, to tell me that her OP dumped her. (it was only an EA this time) i know, sad isnt it that i put it this way. but anyway..... she him hawed around for a long time and then told me that its over, at least for now between them. unfortunately on his terms. i see this as a win for me.
she said that she thinks that it will never work between her and i, yadda yadda yadda.
but then why did she invite me over then????
i told her that i wasnt sure what i wanted, and that im working on being a great dad and working on myself right now.
yahoo!!!
Ok, tread lightly my friend, tread lightly. Deep breaths. You still have the gift of TIME. DB continues. And she is still on the fence--she may stay there for a long while, or she may jump off tomorrow and cry and beg for you back. Or she may waffle in between. She is still in the fog. Do not mind read and do not let her control how you move forward.
Continue to focus on you and be the best man and dad you can be. Do not initiate contact, pursue her, or wait around for her to pursue you. Continue to GAL and stay active. Keep that chin up. If she wants to talk, just listen for now and validate.
TIME is your friend. Consistency over time is louder and stronger than any words that either of you can say. You and still #1.
-blu
yes, to all of that. i am going to continue to give her space, and let her persue me. i know that its going to take some time and i need to see her make the changes, before i would consider giving her another shot.
there is still tons of work to be done for both of us. but this is a great starting point. im glad that he is gone for now. but thats just it.....for now. i has to stay gone for awhile. and she will need to fully committ to me and our marriage. until then, im going to be friendly, but not her bff. and listen to my coach and this forum.
as far a GAL goes, i dont talk about it much on here, because, that really isnt a problem for me. im busy all the time. today, im over booked, and i dont know how im going to fit it all in. i have grown my circle of friends larger than it has ever been. ive taken up several new hobbies in the last year and i cant get enough of it. my coach told me that im ahead of the curve on the GAL stuff.
im treading lightly with her. when i moved out, i fully comitted to giving our marriage 1 year to make a decision. im not going to make my decision out of anger, rage, lonelyness, false hope etc. im just going to be me and be a awesome dad. good things will come either way this goes.
i see this as a win for me
Why? The OM dumped her and you are her backup plan. That is a win for you?
I have to warn you, it has solved nothing. The OM was not the real problem. Her waywardness is the problem. Many WW's bounce from OM1 to OM2 and OM3.
Why did she call you over to tell you about the OM dumping her? She was testing your reaction.
i agree with you sandi, she is still in a very bad place, and this is far from over. But i cant help but be happy, that there was a change. yes, she is still wayward, yes she is still in the fog, yes she is still confused. but every litle change, every little step is an opportunity for her to realize what is going on. as compared to day in day out same thing over and over.
but yes, still half a world away from being where it needs to be.
today was a really great day. i spent it doing what i love jiu jitsu in the morning. my kids all day playing at the river and then watching the ufc fitghts with the kids and my best buddy. now i have 6 kids sleeping at my apartment. it was chaos for a while and i loved every second of it.
today was the first day in 18 years that i thought to myself.....i really dont care if she ever comes back. im ok. i am goiong to be ok. ive wished, ive prayed, heck i even begged once a long time ago for her to keep me. but at this moment in time. i really dont care either way what happens. she is totally missing out on a lot of awesome times.
im kinda feeling the same today as yesterday. this is such a new feeling for me. its not that i dislike her, but i am enjoying the break from her. im finially not walking on egg shells. there is still a small void in my life. but for now a 1000lb weight has been lifted off of my shoulders.
i also just had a thought of how to improve myself. i have a bad habit of reacting to things instead of thinking through things sometimes. i am starting a new rule with myself. from now on, dealing with her, when something stirs me up or if i feel like i am going to react. i am going to stop, look at the clock and wait 1 hour before saying or doing anything. i am also going to talk to one friend first. im calling it my stop 1-1 rule. hopefully this pause, and opportunity to vent my be just what the dr. ordered for me.
Yes! Great PMA, e04355! You get to keep moving forward and enjoying your life with her or without her. You don't have anything to prove to her and you don't need her approval. DB is for YOU. Not to win her back.
As you grow in your confidence and independence, she will probably notice over time. If she doesn't, well then you keep moving forward without her!
im starting to see it more and more that way. little by little i am pulling away from her in ways that i never saw before. it not easy. and i still have days that i want to pull my hair out. if only, or if she would just..... but i guess this is what its all about. me and the kids, and a brighter tomorrow.
Yes, exactly. This is about you, your kids, and moving forward. Some days will be brighter than others. Some days will be very difficult and even painful; that is normal and okay. Allow yourself to grieve, feel it, and then let it pass through you. You don't want to deny yourself that process because it is essential to healing. If it helps, think of this like a death. It is a huge loss, and so you don't need to deny yourself that sadness. And like any grief process, it will get easier over time. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, but you WILL get there in time.
-Blu
she is starting to try and lean on me emotionally. ive been friendly and slightly supportive, but im trying to keep her at arms reach, by keeping the conversation short. but i find it to be a struggle. i feel like she is taking advantage of my good nature. i dont know where to draw the line.
example. yesterday her cat had kittens and she wanted to tell me all about it.
and today her brother is really depressed about a girl dumping him. and she wanted to tell me all about that. i listened, i was warm about it. but maybe too warm.
she hasn't committed to our marriage, and i feel like she is trying to be my friend. i dont want to be her friend. im looking at this as me either being her husband, or a stranger.
this has been her pattern lately. do i need to shut behavior down? or entertain it and see where it goes?
I don't think that its your choice to be her husband, she is the one that needs to make that choice and it will only come if she is committed to the marriage. Till then, she is probably cake-eating, so keep doing you, whilst validating her.
she is starting to try and lean on me emotionally. ive been friendly and slightly supportive, but im trying to keep her at arms reach, by keeping the conversation short. but i find it to be a struggle. i feel like she is taking advantage of my good nature. i dont know where to draw the line.
example. yesterday her cat had kittens and she wanted to tell me all about it.
and today her brother is really depressed about a girl dumping him. and she wanted to tell me all about that. i listened, i was warm about it. but maybe too warm.
she hasn't committed to our marriage, and i feel like she is trying to be my friend. i dont want to be her friend. im looking at this as me either being her husband, or a stranger.
this has been her pattern lately. do i need to shut behavior down? or entertain it and see where it goes?
This is tough. I can tell you really care about her and want to be supportive, but I do think she is cake eating. I don't think you want a friendship with her, you want a M with her, and so I think you need to pull back. You can still be a "nice guy," and have firm boundaries! Those are not mutually exclusive.
Maybe listen briefly, validate, and then exit the conversation. If she tries to hang on to the conversation or start a R talk, then perhaps you can remind her that it is her choice to not be in the R with you, that you wish that things were not that way, but for her to please let you know if that changes. If she is willing to work on the R with you, then you will do what it takes to make the changes necessary to be a better partner. Right now she has given you a lot to think about, but you need to create some space for yourself. Then exit conversation. Can you imagine saying that?
Just my 2 cents. I am sure Sandi can give you better advice!
-Blu
this is has been my struggle for the last year. where to draw the line, or when to pull back. she slowly [censored] me into her life little by little. until we are friends again and then thats where it stops for her. i dont want to get to that point again.
in the past, the point i am at right now, i would have started persuing her. but im not this time. this is a change for me. and she will start to notice that soon, if she hasnt already. i have not started a single conversation with her in almost 3 weeks. i dont intend to persue her at all.
she comes to me, or we dont talk. she is even contacting me first before i have a chance to talk to her about the kids. this is new. she used to be a last min. type person. now, i get a text 24 hours in advance from her.
but like i said, this is new ground for me. this is where i would have started with her. but ive played that game a few times and lost. so i guess ive reached my line in the sand. my no fly zone.
So are you avoiding pursuing her now?
I'm a little confused in my situation as well.
The coach told me to be friends with my WW, but not pursue her.
I guess all of us have to find the balance for ourselves.
im not persuing her at all this time. i have in the past. but not this time. i let her make the first move EVERY time now. if she text me, i usually respond. not right away, mind you.
but the last 2 days, she has been texting me a lot. ive been tempted to have a full on conversation with her. but ive been cutting it short, purposly. and she just texted me again about a table.....im not going to respond. this is the way she works. i give her an inch and she takes a mile. im not playing her game this time.
when i deem it to be important, i respond, but i dont drag it out . i keep it kinda short. and when i can see that she is picking up on her texting, i pull away a little bit. that is the difference for me. in the past i would have hung onto anything that she gave me, with false hope. now im going to make her work for it a little bit.
There you go, give that tough love. You're tired of working to make things work. Give her a chance to miss you. Let her know that you are there, just not there for her.
This is that push-pull dynamic in full effect! Keep pulling back. Not to play this silly game, but because she is not giving you the M you deserve, so you don't want to fall into the friend zone.
Can someone help me out with this? There was a great post/threads by Starsky a couple years ago with a script on how to set good boundaries in this situation. I have no idea how to go through archives and find things on here. It went something like this tho.
" ... W, I want you to know that if you end your A, you will find that I am willing to work on any and all issues in this M. But until that time, we can only communicate about X, Y, Z ..." I know this is all wrong, but it's about paving the road for WW, but also setting boundaries.
Is there a vet that remembers the script? I think it might help in this sitch.
-Blu
i also find it cumbersome to search the threads. i wish i had a script to follow.
for my situation, it's not just about her ending her EA. she claims that's over.....(for now, in my opinion)
it's about her actually wanting me back, for good, forever, and for her to start doing the work, that needs to be done.
im learning still about the push pull dynamic. she seems to only want me to exist in the friendzone. and when i just about get there, i pull away. like i did yesterday. the weekend is coming, and usually she tries to pull me into a relationship talk sometime during the weekend, or tries to set something up for early the next week. this is where i have failed before. this time im ready. and im going to tell her that i already have enough to think about right now. maybe another time.
That's a perfect response about doing things with her. You're too busy so maybe next time.
The thread on boundaries is on the links that cadet gives to all newcomers.
ok, so i had just said eariler, that i felt she was going to initate a realationship talk. and i was right on target.
i went over to pick up the kids just now. and she asked if i have a few min to talk about us. i said, that i have plenty of things to think about already. that unless something significant has happend, then, i would rather wait and talk some other time.
then she just started to spew at me...nicely, but crying. about how she hates being in limbo land. that she needs to pick a path either single or married. that she needs to make a decision for her own sanity. she doesnt think it will ever work with us. on so on. all the while waiting for me to chime in.
my response was that, i havent decided anything yet. that im still weighing facts vs. emotions. that im not going to rush decisions.
i also told her that i find myself in her shoes sometimes. and what ever other validation things i could say.
so long story short. i listened, i gave no answer either way, i validated her.
also i forgot to mention, she had a box of my stuff packed up for me to take with me.
and reading between the lines, she doesnt like that i am not taking her bait. she doesnt like that she is losing control over me. that i am not chasing her.
i got the feeling that she was just waiting for me to say that i dont want this to work. that i am giving up. i think that she feels that it would make her life or her decision easier if i would give up.
she said, i hope that you are not waiting for me. i said, that i am not waiting for you. i have simply just pumped the brakes a little bit, to work on me. to figure things out. to just be me. i said, that i am moving forward with my life, not moving on, moving forward. ( i said that exactly )
this was a huge test, or temp check, or what ever.
i can see changes taking place in her. it is driving her crazy that i will not give her a direct answer on what im thinking. she is doing everything she can to bait it out of me. She wants me to either chase her, or leave her. and i am doing neither. I am just confident and content in doing neither.
i think yesterday's interaction set things into motion. It was really good for me anyway. yesterday she wanted me to make the divorce or marriage decision, and i told her that I still have another year left to make it. (the law in our state we have 2 years).
yesterday, she said things would never work with us. today as i'm leaving after dropping off the kids, she stood in the doorway and waved good bye as i drove away. first time for that in a loooonnnnggg time. she is so allover the place. im not being mean, but its fun to watch this unfold. it reminds me of where i was about a year ago in some ways.
Keep at it, you got this!
-Blu
thank you everyone. i'm not basking in any kind of glory, but this has been a long time coming. I am really starting to feel like me again. Once again, this weekend is jam packed, and i'm double booked at some points. it's such a turnaround from last year, or even the year before.
Keep it up, when you change yourself, the world around you will change too.
ive been maintaining not texting, calling, not liking her facebook stuff etc. for a few weeks. and it seems to be gettitng a desired effect from her. do i continue being like this until she "changes her evil ways completely" ? or do i throw her a little somthing every once in a while?
i will do anything or nothing to make this process speed along. things are goiong great, and i dont want to mess anything up. i just wonder if its sustainable for me to simlpy make her do all the work.
The analogy might not work for you e04355 but it does for me. I do a bit of handyman carpentry from time to time and the hardest part of any job for me has always been waiting for the glue to dry. There's always a temptation to poke at it, or do a bit of light sanding and the next thing you know the parts aren't aligned any more or the blasted thing has fallen apart.
Let the glue dry. You're many steps ahead of me in this process. I haven't even found the glue bottle yet much less figured out where the pieces fit. I have keep telling myself too that it might turn out that it's the wrong glue and things won't hold together but that I need to move forward anyway.
Sorry - bad analogies are one of my weaknesses.
no, that was spot on !!! thank you for the words of wisdom.
as much progress as has been made, i need to realize that time is of the essence. i have a habbit of wanting to tend the fire, or poke things along. im not a sit and wait kind of guy.
sometimes i sit and worry. will this work? is it working? what can i do better? how much longer? etc etc.
so i come here, and speak my thoughts.
thank you for listening
I took my wedding ring off, removed her from my FB relationship status and unfriendly her. Unfollowed her on instagram and deleted her contact from my phone, so no WhatsApp either.
She must know that you are willing to move forward, without or with her. You must live your life for you and don't forget to experience everything, don't block out the tears, they will make you stronger. Until you no longer cry.
i know that i need to stop analizing everything. but today in the kids exchange. both her dropping off and then me dropping them off, she noticed my haircut, looked at me. like, really looked at me, especially when i was speaking. she liked one of my facebook posts. and was extra nice to me.
i kept all conversation very short, but warm.
this is all brand new stuff. in the past, she acted like she couldnt wait to get away from me. now.....she kinda acts like she wants me to stick around, but is afraid to ask.
im just gonna keep on keeping on.
I also cut my hair two weeks back and she says "there's the man that i fell in love with", whilst holding my face. They need to see a confident happy you, before they can consider considering you.
Wow - is this a common theme here? I chopped a foot off my hair and went back to a "regular" men's haircut myself. It was no longer making me happy. I had reached out to W several times in months previous asking if she thought I should cut and what style to go to but she had already disengaged from me. BD pushed me over the edge to make a decision about that (and a few other things) that I will never regret.
One great thing is that I've also gotten lots of compliments from people about how great "I" look which makes me feel good. It's been many years since W has told me that although she would occasionally compliment my clothes.
They're inside there somewhere! Anyone else have haircut stories?
i would like to think that my W. is trying to get my attention based on the changes on her facebook posts. in the last 2 weeks, she went from the normal garbge that she posted, to pics of her and her and the kids non stop.
for years, she was completely self centered in every aspect of life. she is actually starting to be a halfway decent mom to our kids.
i have debated unfriending her, but its a double edged sword. a great reason to keep it around, is an eample from yesterday, i fixed a lawnmower for someone, and they praised me up and down on facebook. i know she had to of saw it. and all the time she can see that im out having good clean fun with my guy friends and my kids.
i just make it a habbit to not like any of her stuff. and she will ask me when i pick up the kids, "did ya see that i" and i say yeah, i saw that, it looked like fun" and she just looks at me with this deer in the headlights look.
Yes it is a double edged sword. Mine somehow is able to like my instagram updates of me GALing.
here is a big question. Next week is mothers day. do i get her a gift or not ??? i am debating on getting her a hanging flower basket or something small like that.
last year while we were separated, i didnt get her anything and she went crazy angry, and stayed mad about it for several months. brought it up at least 10 times.
last year while we were separated, i didnt get her anything and she went crazy angry, and stayed mad about it for several months. brought it up at least 10 times.
I think we're all struggling with that one. I was thinking of a simple card.
But why get something for someone that does not want to be a mother? Someone trying to break up a happy home and scar her own children.
Let them get angry. It's going to be a fun day on this forum.
I'm not getting mine anything... Same thoughts as DDJ. We already missed Valentine's Day, my bday, her bday, our anniversary... Xmas we were technically together, but her gifts to me were crap.. Should've gotten the hint then.
everyones situation is different. im kinda thinking about getting her something, just to mess with her a little bit. to make her think, what is he thinking? does he want me back ?
i have been living just out of her reach for a little while now. ill be talking to my coach again this this week, and ill bring it up with him for sure. he has already cautioned me, not to be too cold, or to stray too far from her. that she needs to think that there might be a chance with me. but to not be too nice.
im not going to sit up late and stress about this. but i am going to give it some thought.
from a distance, i'm noticing some positive changes in her. let me paint a picture. for the last 10 years or even longer. she has been an extremely self centered, gimmie brat. she never took any pride in a clean house, and she showed up late for everything. always had to pay late fees for not paying her bills on time. etc.
i had our kids this weekend for a little while, and they were telling me, how mommie cleaned and rearranged their rooms. scrubbed the house from top to bottom.
today, she sends me a text asking for my half of the preschool payment, so that she can send it in. ( it's not due for 15 days)
and the kids have commented on how she is being a really great mom right now.
i hope for everyone's sake that this is not just a phase, but a lifestyle change. could this be a start? could she actually be taking the first steps of pulling her head out of.....
e04355,
I can't answer you question because I have little experience with the DB stuff, but it does sound like your wife is making positive changes so that certainly can't be a bad thing. I don't know if it's DB protocol, but maybe it's a good time to compliment her on the changes you've seen.
thats a good point. i never even considered complimenting her on her positive changes.
does anyone have any experience with this? is it a good idea? bad idea? too soon?
Perhaps for the card and compliments keep them in the context of the kids. "Great Mom to our Children" sort of thing. That way it validates her efforts without bringing up the R.
Things appear to be thawing between myself and W and especially since S22 is coming home for Mother's Day I plan on a simple basic card about motherhood. Might help remind her about the whole family and help her think beyond just herself. Originally I was going to ignore Mother's Day but was worried that would backfire on me.
Hi JksD
That is a very helpful post. Aside from a couple emails I've had no contact w my H since he walked out 3 weeks ago. No phone calls, no face to face.
Luckily for me he blocked my calls/texts immediately - he didn't know I had no intention of pursuing him, but it did help eliminate the temptation to do so.
The only thing I've noticed in terms of tiny changes as Michelle mentions in DR book is the tone of his emails is softer, he even said 'hope you are well' yesterday, which made me want to throw something but if I see it as an innocent comment it's good.
My snarky self things - sure, he hopes I'm well so he doesn't feel guilty.
Anyhow, in my case, being the classic pursuer in our M and he being the distancer, I would imagine he is surprised by my total elimination of any M talk in emails, efforts to see him, process etc. When he first left he said - I won't process this. You can't fix this -
Well, I know that is his way of defending himself against what he thought I would do.
Hopefully I am surprising him.
I also like what you said about using NC to protect self, as yesterday even an email triggered a lot of not so helpful emotions.
Thanks for your insights.
HI Sandi and all,
I am confused. I read a couple articles on the site and a story in the end of the DR book where the LBS decides to make a real effort to build the friendship and it eventually leads back to the reconciling of the M and piecing etc.
Yet in other posts I see this idea criticized.
In my case, I know I was being emotionally inauthentic for past few months with my H and the idea of rekindling our friendship, once I can handle it emotionally, without the pressure of working on the M seems one possible way with my H to have the outcome I desire.
How do you know if and when this is a good idea. I know for SURE if I insisted on talking about our M right now, that would push him away even more.
He's living with friends. only contact via email in past 3 weeks since he left, all initiated by him.
Thanks for any insights.
I'm not so sure that going the friends route would be the way to go to reconciliation, if that is what you want. Some WW/WAW spouses use the "friend" idea as a way to ease their own guilt. I guess if children are involved, it makes it a little easier. Quite honestly, I'm not so sure I could ever be friends with my STBXW. I just don't have it in me. Now, if I knew for certain that it would open the door to reconciliation, then maybe. But I didn't sign up for buddies, and told her that. I'm not going to be like her past exes that ended up as friends. In the future? Who knows, but not anytime soon.
Hi Jeep74,
thanks for your thoughts.
I guess every situation is different.
Since I really don't know what the hell is going on in my H's mind, to me it seems like a good idea in terms of starting to eventually spend time together that is fun, stress free and calm.
That is what he wants and I think that would open his heart, eventually, although I'm probably mind reading, so what do I know.
If he doesn't see me, and we have little contact and don't do anything together, I don't see how he'll just wake up one day and decide he wants to get back in the M game.
Time is my friend!
Sorry for your sitch. jesus. sounds hard
e04355,
I am glad that your W is being a good parent. I think ultimately the kids are most important; they are the only real victims in our mess. I hope she can keep up these positive changes for herself and for the kids.
In terms of Mother's Day, I don't think you should give her any card or gift that is from you. Same as any other holiday. You don't have an R right now; the only R is about the kids/logistics.
That being said, I think it would be nice to take your kids to get gifts and cards for her from them. That in itself is a caring gesture. It is also a good value to teach your children; right now their perspective is more important than hers! You are also showing her that you still value her as their mother.
Just my 2 cents,
Blu
i was thinking along the lines, of having the kids pick her out a flower and them make cards for her. and tell her the the flower is from them.
That will work. Flower should be something inexpensive so it does not look like pursuing.
i got jumped by her when i went over today to pick up some things out of the garage. she just came right out and said, "its over" ,"i dont think its going to work between us"
i calmly, said well, do what you gotta do. im taking my time with my thoughts before i descide.
then she asked, can we still be friends if we divorce. i said no, i cannot have a friendship with you. either we are married or nothing. i will drop the kids off at the curb. and that will be the extent of our existance.
i pack up and left. when i got home i had recieved a mile long text from her. saying that for this to work, we both need to be in it 100%. that she doesnt know if she could ever be close to me. but living in limbo is killing her.
oh, the waffling and boldness is catching me off guard. emotionally im fine. i expect this flip flopping and im used to it. but she is getting more and more bold and closer to the next step, what ever that may be.
My WW said the same thing about 100% etc etc and the limbo thing. Well that fizzled out and while she was nicing me, she made a night away plan with OM.
I don't see any reason to be nice, pursue or allow friendship, or take any of the bait with their drama! It is not reality. Reality for them should be to feel the detachment, no drama allowed, and for them to see and feel what they are losing. No friendship, no gifts, no cards, nada. This is a natural consequence for walking out on a M!
If you want your M back, then you can plainly tell them what you want, and everything else is off the table, then you can turn the other cheek for how the are treating you and walk away. Trying to nice your way back into a R, will only show your weakness, and it's just not attractive to anyone. Sorry for the 2*4, but think about this outside of your feelings for a moment. Would your confident self be ok with your W leaving you, hurting you, yo-yo-ing all over you with no regard for your pain, and then just keep being "nice" in hopes she might take you back? That makes no sense.
They are in a fog, but so are you because your self-esteem is in the toilet! Hold your head up high, detach, and think about how you deserve to be treated.
-Blu
thats the thing, i have pulled the rug out from under her. i havent been nice lately. i have been very distanced. she uses every oportunity, to talk to me.
and every time, she says its over.....and i say ok, do what you gotta do. and then i get a text later saying that she is unsure.
im not even effected by it anymore. i sit here typing, laughing to myself, just watching it unfold.
i would take her back, if she would ever put in the work. and be 100% into it. but until then. im just chillin enjoying myself and my kids and friends. no women, no side chicks. just me. its kinda nice coming home to my apppt. with no drama.
I like your thinking.. You seem to have it going for you.
Nice and calm.
As for the changes in your WW, as stated yesterday. Mine is also coming around. She went out on friday, but still cleant the house before she did so - and no-one cleans on a friday night! She's disciplining our S4 for the first time ever. She's even stated that she wanted to dress him because he can't be in his pyjamas whole day on a saturday (was 9am).
These are things she's never done before. Sandi says that a W must know her place and only a H can show her where that is.
These changes are a start, but the waywardness is still very very deep.
i agree, she is still very wayward. she is confused, shes darn near crazy. im just trying to live my life drama free for awhile. it feels good.
but unfortunately, she keeps interrupting my peace, every few days in any way possible that she can find, to ask me. how are you doing? what are you thinking? and then the back and forth of her rollercoaster, wanting in and back out.
the whole time i try to avoid her. and i remain constant in my answers. im havent made a decision yet etc.
but her wanting me to talk is getting bolder and bolder.
Just avoid the talking, and just listen. Give a few knods, ah-hahs and get her to speak. They love that attention, even if it's so small.
i was in a funk the last 2 days, but i'm coming out of it now. I was able to come out of it without, bugging all my friends and without freaking out. self soothing i guess you can say. this is a big victory for me.
i will be talking to my coach tonight, and hopefully be putting together a strategy for the next month or months in how to deal better with her. and what good signs and what red flags to look for.
This is a loonnnggg and difficult process. I don't think you can measure success day by day or week by week. So keep doing what is working, detach, and focus on you--your life without her. You don't have to let WW, or anyone for that matter, rope you into their drama. Perhaps there have always been boundary issues in the M. I think we can all have those in any long term M, but when separation occurs, it's absolutely the time to reinforce them. They are not to hurt her, they are to protect you. Big difference.
It's not too late to put up healthy boundaries, let her know you are not talking about that now, and keep creating space for yourself. This does not need to be done in a punative manor, but to protect yourself and what you are comfortable with. If that doesn't work and she continues to come at you, it's ok to say, "with the way things are between us, I need some space, I would prefer to only talk about logistics regarding the kids and finances, I have a lot to think about, I hope you can understand that and will respect my boundaries."
Can you do that? And stick to it?
-Blu
i can certainly do that. the problem is that, she views it as me punishing her. she is still very self centered at times, in a princess type mind frame. anything that doesnt go exactly her way is a stab in the back to her.
im not going to use her name, but i had a saying that i used to use, that pretty well sums it up. well just call her "jane". i used to say and still say, that "jane is for jane, and nobody else"
during this whole process, anyone, who went against her, she has cut out. and im not afraid to be cut out. the problem for me lies in that, my coach says that i should be somewhat friendly to her and not cause her to go cold and feel hurt. not to be punitive, and i dont feel that i am. but when i said a month ago for us to only talk about children and logistics, for now. she took it as me punishing her.
so im kinda stuck in what to do exactly. maybe its all in the wording, or timing. idk. its been a stuggle, none the less.
after speaking with my coach, i should tactfully and creatively defer talks, when asked by her about 1/3 of the time. when i pick up the boys on tuesday and she corners me, to say things like, i've got a lot to do today and i need to get going, but maybe thursday.
he says that it's good that she wants to talk, but i need to validate her more. and let her know that i'm not inviting her back to the old marriage, but that there is a new relationship possibility, where we have both grown.
You seem to think that because she is a princess, will get frustrated, or will perceive boundaries as punishing her, that you should then be careful with what you say and do? I completely disagree! This is not about her, this is about your boundaries. You teach everyone you meet in life how to treat you and what you will put up with, including her.
You can listen, validate, remain calm, etc, but you are allowed to exit a conversation or situation at any time. That is your comfort zone and your right! Do not walk on egg shells for this woman. Show her the new you has more self respect than that!
Blu
so, tonight was the night that our boys had their cub scout banquet. i showed up first with the boys. and she came about 10 min later and sat down with us. and we spent 2 hours as a family.....kind of.
it was aquward at first, but i remainded friendly and warm but i made sure that i was not really into her, but more into the whole scout thing. she and i talked a lot. mostly about day to day stuff that happened this week. then she told a funny story and we both laughed really hard.
at the end of the night, i gathered up the boys to leave. and she came over tapped me on the hand, as i was talking to someone else and said good bye with a smile.
there was no relationship talk. no anger, no avoidance on her part.
everything seemed good. but i dont know how to take any of this for the long term.
what i failed to mention, was that she seemed to be very into me and wanting to know things about me. and i stayed a little bit mysterious. she gravitated towards me when i would get up and go talk to someone. this is polar opposite from a year ago.
Did you read my post? I'm not sure because you didn't mention it.
It seems you are trying to mind read here and are desperately looking for any sign. Perhaps she is just being friendly. Perhaps she is cake eating and just wants a friendship while she has OM fulfilling all her other needs. Is that ok with you?
Success is when she wants to come back to the M. And might I add that you cannot measure success in a couple interactions.
I'm sorry for the 2*4s, but it appears you are not wanting to take in the advice. DB is for you. The focus is accepting that she is gone right now and focusing on YOU! I don't see that you have accepted that.
Blu
bluwave. i did see your post. i admit, that i can do better at db and working on myself and worring less about her.
but im starting a tremendous shift in her behaivior. she is staring to do her own 180, only she is chasing me instead of running away.
it seems that a lot of you here are focusing on an all or nothing agenda vs. a stick and carrot. what i have been doing seems to be leading in a positve direction, and im coming here to validate my observations.
a month ago when i left the house and started my 180. she was talking to the OM agian. wanted nothing to do with me. wanted space, was depressed, unhappy, cried daily and wanted a D. now here i sit, and she claims that the OM is gone, she is chasing me more and more. wants to be around me and is putting her life back together. i give her a little taste, and i go back to being distant. i let her have a little tast and i go back to being distant. this process is not all about running away and never coming back, hoping that somebody waves a magic wand and poof her heart is changed. its about capitolizing on opportunitys that you are given. making mistakes and learning from them.
as far a GAL and bettering myself, im kicking butt in that area, my circle of friends is growing by the second. im canceling plans due to being double booked half the time. i am a way better father than i used to be. i feel happy and fulfilled. the only way i would let her or anyone into a partnership with me is if they actually improved my life. i am not longer going to be in a crummy relationship. im happy alone. but could be so much more with someone.
so yes, i come on here and talk about her alot. why? everything else is great. my coach and i have discussed this several times. he tells me how far ahead of the curve i am at everything else. and he has told me time and time again, to show her that i am still an option for her, but to keep my distance. that if she shows a little interest in me, to bait her a little bit see the response and then go back to distanceancing my self.
I loved how you handled yourself in this post:
got jumped by her when i went over today to pick up some things out of the garage. she just came right out and said, "its over" ,"i dont think its going to work between us"
i calmly, said well, do what you gotta do. im taking my time with my thoughts before i descide.
then she asked, can we still be friends if we divorce. i said no, i cannot have a friendship with you. either we are married or nothing. i will drop the kids off at the curb. and that will be the extent of our existance.
i pack up and left. when i got home i had recieved a mile long text from her. saying that for this to work, we both need to be in it 100%. that she doesnt know if she could ever be close to me. but living in limbo is killing her.
oh, the waffling and boldness is catching me off guard. emotionally im fine. i expect this flip flopping and im used to it. but she is getting more and more bold and closer to the next step, what ever that may be.
Your WW is use to manipulating you and getting you to do whatever she wants. When she sees she can't manipulate you, then, eventually, she is going to start feeling attraction for you........b/c she wants a man who is his own man and and not a puppet on a string. Note, she will still test you, b/c she wants cake and b/c she has gotten her way for far too long. However, I see that you CAN withstand her little tests, so I am feelings more confident about you. I hope you are, too.
Just b/c a woman has a princess entitlement, does not mean she gets to be treat others as though they are peasants. She can't be wayward and at the same time, walk around as though she has a crown on her head. The man who does not kneel at her feet, will be the man she will want to conquer.
The interaction at the banquette........take it for no more, but no less, than her apparently being attracted to the man you are showing yourself to be. Now I will be the first to tell you guys that women (especially waywards) can be the most conniving, game-playing, manipulative, deceiving creatures on the planet. I am very suspicious of a wayward when she suddenly displays *nice* behavior to her betrayed H. In this particular event, I just have a little feeling there was some attraction. I am hoping real hard it was.
Let me warn you, however, (you knew
that was coming....right?), the next contact will probably be her testing you again. Usually, whenever a WW is suddenly terribly sweet or nicey-nice, she is setting you up for something to hit you with later. So, don't get completely thrown off your horse if it comes your way.
As long as you can smile & wave, while you continue displaying a nonchalant attitude when dealing with her or whenever thrown in her presence.........I think it will be to your great benefit. The WW has to go through a process of sorts, and it takes time. I know that it must feel like an eternity already, just know that at long as you don't compromise your own integrity and lower your standards to believe you deserve nothing more than what's offered.........you will come through a winner.
How I hope that she will truly sees the man you are/have become and to realize she could lose it all. I pray that remorse will grip her heart and she will have the desire to give her very best efforts in saving her M. She has a long road to travel, still. Don't accept detours and short-cuts from her. When she feels remorse over the utter pain she has caused her H and family, and she can approach you with that humility in her spirit......THEN, and only then, can the MR have a real chance of being successful. You never reach a point in the MR that you can stop working. Not if you want a good one.
I am expecting a long and treacherous road. and so far i haven't been disappointed. she still has some milestones she would have to meet for me to even begin to consider her again.
i have found what i think is a good plan for myself to be happy and healthy. i have also found what i believe to be a good plan to deal with her. I will constantly be checking and adjusting as needed. the hardest part, is i never know who is showing up to the party. it could be any one of, or a combo of the ten different women who all resemble my W. somedays its the sad, mad, lets get a D wife. and somedays its the playful, kind, lets see where this goes W. and it usually changes in mid sentence.
so when she gets here to pick up the kids in about 10 min, i see which one of the 7 dwarfs are sitting on her shoulder and whispering into her ear.
hopefully this shift in her overall behavior stays. if so, or even if not, the sun is shining today. im meeing with my buddies after church. and when they go home, im meeting with another friend to prep my motorcycle for our trip next weekend. let the good times roll.
and say what you will about me and my motives, but today i was able to snoop her phone for 10 seconds. and i saw that her OM # has been deleted as well as all of their conversations.....
Stop snooping. That doesn't mean anything, and it can change in 5 mins. It's like saying a heroin addict didn't have any drugs or needles on them when you checked. They are only a few minutes away from obtaining both.
saturday afternoon, i texted her for the first time in a month to ask about one of our kids school events. and she was very playful in her responses.
sat night she went out with her pro D friend (female). this woman has been instrumental in trying to show her how great the D life can be. but her life is a trainwreck. ???? it blows my mind.
sunday when she picked up the kids, she seemed very distracted and emotional. (it was mother's day) she got out of there quickly.
later in the day i passed her in traffic and she smiled and waved to me.
we haven't spoken or seen each other since then, but today i go to pick up the kids after work and then drop them back off tomorrow morning. we'll see how that goes. usually this is the point where she will ask me to talk. i think i'm going to tactfully deny her the opportunity this time.
it seems that she is very confused as to what i am doing. in the past, i would have been pursuing her by now. but this time around i have not been. i let her do all of the pursuing, contacting etc. times like now though, i wonder what kind of effect its having. attract or repel? from what ive seen, so far, it has an attract result. sorry im venting i guess. just a little nervous right now, cause im speculating that a test is coming from her.
You're assuming what she's thinking or doing and getting stuck in her head. That's where the anxiety is coming from.
she started her cycle of pursuing me again yesterday. it always starts with a random text about something with the kids that is going to happen a month ahead of time. anything she can find to start the conversation.
it seems that every cycle of this, she gets a little bit closer at the peak. i have been solid at keeping my distance and leaving a little mystery.
this text today, (day 2 of the cycle lol) she asked the date and time and if we will be traveling together next month for one of the cub scout functions. i purposely avoided answering that question. i just gave the date and time of when the event was. (she already knew that info, she is just fishing to see what i would say to the traveling together )
is this cycling normal? i want to get out of it. but she makes it so difficult. she asks questions that make it so that i need to answer.
Personally if you are detaching and growing your new pair, why would your travel with this person? And why would you be answering texts about the event that far in advance?
good points. i don't know if i need to detach more, or to keep cycling like this. this cycling is showing hints of promise, but i kinda feel dumb for letting it continue.
I think if anything, her saying 'I want to travel with you' would be promising. I still wouldn't travel with my WW unless she had recommitted to the marriage and was willing to do everything and anything to make it work.
im kinda down today. i dropped the kids off this morning, and i won't see them for 4 days. i want to grab her and shake her and say, why are you doing this to us? what are you choosing to divide your family? dont you care that your kids wont see their dad for several days? and then next weekend she will have the same. doesn't this make her heart crumble?
Sorry to hear that you're down. Got nothing else except a pat on the back for you.
and the whole time that i'm dropping them off, she kept her eyes on me. not the kids. she complemented me on my new shoes. she stayed no more than 4 feet from me. not that i moved past the front door. she didn't even talk to the kids while i was there except to say hi as they walked through the door.
i don't know what is going on or what to do, except to just keep on keeping on. lately ive been tempted to really pull away. to create even more distance. but at the same time, she seems interested.
i was just complaining on friday that i wouldnt see the kids for 4 days. tonight she text me and says, that if im interested in seeing the kids tomorrow, to let her know, that if she was in my shoes, she wouldnt want to go that long. so, of course i say , yes id like to see, them thank you very much for the offer.
now its got me thinking.....is she genuinely being nice? or does she want something????
It does not matter what she wants. You're in her head.
You are seeing your kids and that's all that matters. Don't be too happy, but tell her that you're happy to take them whenever you are available, not when she is. I don't think that it counts as babysitting, as long as you're doing it for you. Not because she asked you.
Please start a new thread.
i agree, im in her head.
the first time we separated, this NEVER happened. every other weekend, was the name of the game.
is she starting to feel guilty? or is she just leaving me a few crumbs to pick up, cause she sees me moving away and doesnt want me to run?
or will she corner me again on the pick up or drop off and want to "talk" hehehe dang it, now shes in my head. lol