Newbie here. I'll try to keep this brief while including the pertinent info.
H and I have been married for 22 years. We have four kids, ranging in age from 10 to 20. We married at 22, and we had had no other sexual partners.
Until recently, I would have characterized our marriage as generally good, with the exception of the discrepancy in our libidos. I am the lower-desire spouse. H would express frustration periodically, I would try to work on things, I would think things had improved, and then in a year or so we would have another heated discussion. I know at one point, DH was on a marriage site seeking advice and was advised to divorce me. He was also going through a general depression, and I was pregnant with our youngest child, so I chalked it up to the depression and didn't take it as seriously as I should have.
I have a hard time reading H's emotions. He hates to cause pain, so he does a good job of backtracking after upsetting conversations. For too long (like, two decades), that lead me to believe that the issue was resolved and that things were mostly good with a few bad patches. Even now that I am aware he does this, I have a hard time not believing the surface behavior.
Several years ago, H started suffering from what seemed to be seasonal depression. We live in the frozen north, so this is not good. The winter of 2014-2015 was very bad, and just when he started to come out of it, we were hit with a very stressful situation regarding a business that we owned. H started talking about how he felt we were roommates. I badgered a doctor into giving me testosterone cream, in an effort to raise my libido. It didn't work. I suggested intensive counseling with a focus on our sex life, but H refused, mostly due to cost. (We could have paid for it, but the price tag was startling.)
I knew we needed to figure out the sexual side of our relationship, but by now, H's depression had worsened again in anticipation of winter, and he was withdrawing emotionally. I believed things would be easier to address once the winter was over.
H left to spend the winter someplace warm. The kids and I stayed here and visited him for a week partway through. (One of our kids is a sometimes suicidal teenager, so although we want to move the whole family somewhere with more year-round sunlight for H's sake, we want to wait until this kid is out of high school, since we fear the consequences of uprooting this kid from the current support system.) I read several books about sexual issues in marriage, and I feel like I finally get H's side of things.
H came back at the end of March. He was outwardly polite, helpful, and involved with the kids, but he seemed emotionally distant. I confronted him a few days after he came home, and he admitted that he just didn't feel desire for me anymore. It was like that part of him had switched off. And with it, apparently, his love.
Part of him wants to leave, so he can try to find a sexually satisfying relationship while he still has a chance. Part of him doesn't want to cause anymore pain. When we first talked, he seemed like he was in the process of making a decision, so I've been bracing myself for two weeks for the other shoe to fall. Yesterday (he brought it up), he said that he doesn't feel like there is a decision to be made. I said I had stopped planning our family vacation because I wasn't sure we'd be together then. He said I should plan it, that he had no intention of us not being together in July. He also admitted that his feelings on this aren't entirely consistent from day to day.
I have a first appointment with a counselor tomorrow morning. Even before this latest development, I knew I needed some counseling help to deal with the emotional impact of having a spouse with depression.
H won't take anti-depressants or see a counselor. He is amazingly stubborn.
As far as I know (and we both work from home in the same room), there is no affair. We still eat breakfast and dinner together, go for walks together, talk frequently about our days and about what we are reading, sleep in the same bed. Physical contact is limited to hugs I initiate or him putting his arm around me at night.
I read both The Sex-Starved Marriage and The Divorce Remedy. I identified a couple of typical behaviors to not do (pester for decisions, seek validation), and I'm hoping my counselor can help keep me accountable on those. I'm working to get more of a life.
But I don't know if those will be enough to rekindle love. Any suggestions?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
My suggestion is to go back to the beginning. Re-discover each other as you did when you were first dating. Why did you/him fall in love in the first place?
My concern is that your H has "checked out" of the marriage and isn't willing to put forth effort to save it. I don't know if this is entirely true, but it's the vibe that I got from your post. If he's not willing to work on your marriage, that doesn't leave you with many options.
There are definite communication issues that need to be worked out as well as the sexual aspect. Do you know what his love language is? Does he know yours?
I have no real advice, but I just wanted to say that maybe if you do follow the guidelines from the books his desire will come back? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't know if there is something you can do to change his feelings, but you can make yourself more desirable by being happier in yourself.
I hope things will work out for you
My suggestion is to go back to the beginning. Re-discover each other as you did when you were first dating. Why did you/him fall in love in the first place?
My concern is that your H has "checked out" of the marriage and isn't willing to put forth effort to save it. I don't know if this is entirely true, but it's the vibe that I got from your post. If he's not willing to work on your marriage, that doesn't leave you with many options.
There are definite communication issues that need to be worked out as well as the sexual aspect. Do you know what his love language is? Does he know yours?
Thanks for the response.
I am not really sure why he fell in love. After our first meeting and conversation, he told his family he had met the girl he was going to marry.
I know why I fell in love, but I'm still in love, so I don't really need to work on that.
Yes, I fear he has checked out of the marriage as well. He isn't pursuing leaving, but I don't think he is eager to open his heart up again. In general, he is not a person who has a lot of hope in people's ability to change.
His primary love language is touch, although he is also high on quality time and words of affirmation. And he likes acts of service and gifts too. (I think if I had done a better job of meeting his touch need through sex--instead of through other touching--he might need less of the other love languages.)
I'm words of affirmation and quality time. When he's not depressed, he does a good job of meeting my needs. The last year and a half have been hard.
I have no real advice, but I just wanted to say that maybe if you do follow the guidelines from the books his desire will come back? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't know if there is something you can do to change his feelings, but you can make yourself more desirable by being happier in yourself.
I hope things will work out for you
Thanks for posting.
I agree. There probably isn't anything I can do, other than stop the things I know cause friction in our relationship and focus on meeting my needs in other ways. That and hope, hope, hope.
But if anyone has suggestions for other things to try, I am all ears.
Hi Rose888,
A DB coach may be a good idea as they can really provide good solution based feedback for your switch.
The 180, setting goals and staying out of the cheese less tunnels are some good things to follow I would say.
These are just my opinions as I have struggled with them in my switch, but I am trying to keep them in the forefront as they can help keep us in a better place no matter how things turn out.
Hang in there and as Cadet always posts, our spouses have given us a gift, we have the gift of time.
I had my first appointment with my counselor on Monday. I tried to be as honest and objective as possible, but she said several things that helped put things into perspective. She encouraged me to not help H detach emotionally.
He asked about my appointment, and I shared a bit. He shared some too. In the evening we watched a movie with the kids. At night, I told him that sometimes I was angry with him for the situation. He said that was understandable.
Then this morning, we made love. I suspect pity sex, but it still put me in a good mood for the day. We had a very happy family dinner tonight, with lots of laughter.
That said, I'm continuing to work on me, and I did several GAL things over the weekend.
Not at all sure how this will end up, but I'm not feeling miserable right now.
I can't see any change in H's emotional engagement in the marriage, which lends more weight to the pity sex theory.
Our friendship-level interactions are normal.
I need to start thinking about GAL activities for this weekend. Without plans, it's too easy to obsess about things.
Hi Rose888,
One thing that I am learning and have seen consistently in these forums is that this is a marathon. It will take time and consistent changes in ourselves to rekindle what was lost that led us to now.
Remember to try and not read into every action or comment that our spouse makes as that will get us no where. We have to stay focused on ourselves and the permanent changes that we need to make to be the person only a fool would leave.
Cadet posts in the homework that our WAS has given us a gift. The gift of time. Use it wisely.
Become the best you possible and do it without any expectations from the WAS and then let the rest go as it may. You will come out for the better no matter what happens. I share this with you as I continue to try and make it permenant in my own thoughts and actions. Easier said than done, but it really is the ideas that make the most sense for each of us to be successful.
My prayers and hope for a positive outcome go out to you in these challenging times.
Hello Rose888,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Try not to worry about H's emotional engagement in the marriage right now. Mind reading isn't going to help. I'm glad you are thinking about GAL activities. You are so smart to recognize that obsessing about things isn't in your best interest.
Sadhub- Thanks for the vote of confidence regarding the DB coaching!
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
We had a talk today. H has set a deadline of August 1 to make a decision to commit to the marriage and try to rekindle his love or start the divorce proceedings.
I want to vomit.
I would appreciate any advice on the following questions:
1. He has offered to sleep in the office or basement. Should I take him up on that?
2. He is an author, and I am his proofreader for his self-published novels (a subset of his work). He is about to give me a new book to edit. He asked if I still want to do it. Should I make him find someone else?
3. We work at home in the same office. There is another small office he can work in. Should I ask him to work there?
4. He has to go speak at a conference next week. I expect he will text me throughout. Should I go dark?
Basically, any advice on being my usual friendly self versus immediately creating emotional distance?
Our only real marriage issue is that my sex drive is lower and he wants to find someone with whom he can have a passionate romance.
Rose,
I can't tell you how important it is to get a DB counselor if you can swing it at all.
I can also say - I understand your libido sitch, don't know if you've hit the big M yet (my W did by 40) which makes a diff. However, you might need to address some things yourself. That could be somebody besides a coach. My W said my lack of desire drove her away - and that was a weird catch 22 sitch by itself, because I thought she was the one that didn't have any desire. Go fig.
Anyway, if you can't swing a coach - I understand the last part of MWD's audio for marriage has a part for couples to listen to. You might consider that. It's easier than going to counseling for the stubborn - and it might get you both there.
For now, you've got to DR as best you can. I so understand your pain. But for the moment you've got the advantage of communication and time.
Below are only my opinions based on what I've learned from some very good people here, who should chime in at some point.
1) if he offered to sleep in the basement, that might be a good idea. You KNOW he's not having an A? You KNOW he's not going through a MLC?
2)yes, he should begin to learn what life is like without you.
3)yup, buh-bye.
4) go dark unless it's very, very, very important. Like 911 important. Or, he says something that sounds like actual progress, in which case you can either validate, or be non-committal.
I too worked with my W, so I feel a lot of what you're going through - it's so sad that so many people have such similar stories.
Stay strong.
Thanks, I appreciate the response.
Yes, I am willing to work on the libido issue. I found MWD and this board through The Sex-Starved Marriage. Unfortunately, H doesn't think I can ever get my libido high enough to give him the passionate relationship he wants. I haven't hit the big M yet.
I am as sure as I can be about the affair. He might be going through an MLC, but self-doubt and wanting to (probably) divorce me are the only real signs. No crazy expenditures, no partying. He's an engaged parent. He is still kind and thoughtful in his daily interactions.
I worry about pushing him away if I'm less helpful and friendly than usual--it's tricky because he hasn't made a decision--but I kind of feel like I am a package deal, and he shouldn't be able to pick and choose the parts of me he wants to keep. What you said about letting him see what it's like to miss me really hit home.
I am as sure as I can be about the affair.
He might be going through an MLC, but self-doubt and wanting to (probably) divorce me are the only real signs.
No crazy expenditures, no partying.
He's an engaged parent. He is still kind and thoughtful in his daily interactions.
Depression is a major part of MLC.
He may be in a lower energy type of crisis.
As far as what to do,
turn the focus onto yourself,
making yourself into a person only a fool would leave.
You know sometimes men are attracted to what they can not have.
Absence also make the heart grow fonder.
You can not love him out of depression, he has to hit rock bottom and want out himself.
Keep Posting
Rose,
Cadet is right here. I pray it's not a MLC - in whatever form. He may just be in a different place after he thought of what he wants. Just continue the DR stuff, detach, 180, validate, and sadly - go as dark as you can given your current living sitch.
I totally understand a lot of what is presented is counter intuitive, and I fought it myself. Yes, it's tricky. It stinks.
Like I said - if you can swing it call a coach, even if it's a 1 time session. You could save yourself days by doing this - and time is precious right now. I'm so sorry - please keep posting.
I'll look into the coaching.
I'm not opposed to detaching and going dark, but I need to do it without appearing to be pouting or angry, and that's a tough line for me to figure out.
I see a lot of yard work on my future. It gets me out of the house and away from him, yet my kids can still come find me to chat while I work.
How long is the one-time counseling session?
Rose,
Please clear this up for me - your H gave you a deadline for rekindling his love? Just how in holy hell are you supposed to so that'?
Sorry if that sounded odd, but I can't wrap my head around that statement...
Rose,
Please clear this up for me - your H gave you a deadline for rekindling his love? Just how in holy hell are you supposed to so that'?
Sorry if that sounded odd, but I can't wrap my head around that statement...
I agree with this! If i were you Rose i would take that time, and focus on yourself.
No, he's giving himself until August 1 to decide if he is going to leave or stay. If he stays, then he'll open himself to rekindling the love. He's not thinking that is all my work--he knows he'll have to put some effort into it.
He described it as a door. Previously we were in our marriage and the door to the outside was locked. Now the door is unlocked and ajar. (Our physical separation earlier this year for practical, not marital, reasons did not make his heart grow fonder.) He thinks if he ever wants to leave, now is the time when he can do that with the least emotional pain to himself.
He is trying to decide if he wants to be unselfish and give up his dream of a passionate sex life with a woman who is as passionate as he is to stay with me and keep our kids' family intact.
He is torn between living his dream and sparing us pain.
Torn between his dream and sparing pain? Good grief.
Hi Rose,
The coaching info can be found on top links under telephone coaching. The more you buy, the less it is. I think at least one session will give you the tools you'll need to get started.
DO NOT assume things will get normal if he suddenly "comes around", I foolishly lived in denial when things seemed to be stable. By the time my W agreed to counseling, it was only to tell me there was no hope. 3 times.
Your H needs to decide deeper issues besides what you're stating. Sparing you pain or living a fantasy - neither are realistic goals. A loving relationship - a real one - is.
He seemed shocked yesterday when I described it as him deciding if he was going to leave me. He asked me if that was really how I see it.
????
I am not sure how he sees it.
He was struggling for the past year or so with the fact that he finally achieved his professional dream and didn't know what was next.
I guess sexual dreams are next.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I am probably not being fair in my description. He doesn't see it as living a fantasy. He sees it as finding a relationship with someone whose sex drive is like his.
He wants someone who is overcome with passion. Apparently the fact that I ask if the door is locked indicates that I can never give him what he wants.
Sorry to be posting so much today. I'm hoping to do a counseling session, but I can't do one today and I have questions about how to handle things.
What do I do if H invites me for a walk? This is a common thing, and he seems to want to continue our friendship during the limbo time. I'm leaning toward declining, because it feels like cake eating.
Is that too unfriendly? Does it matter if he's "just" walking away or if it's an MLC?
Ugh.
I've been aiming for cordial but distant. I haven't initiated any conversation except one that was kid-related.
He brought me coffee during one of my calls and seems only slightly less chatty than usual.
Hi Rose,
You are so smart to be cautious. It is a very fine line between being cordial & neighborly without being too short & rude. Avoiding cake eating is important too, but how?
Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004 and we can talk about the logistics.
I'm wishing you all the best.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
I see a lot of red flags, and I am not sure how aware H is, but he is setting you up to fail. I don't think this is fair to you. Putting a timeline on relationships, closeness, and love, is a double-edged sword! The timeline alone creates anxiety, which will not achieve intimacy. It will have the opposite effect. I am getting the sense that he has already checked out and this date he has given you is just his proof of due diligence, as if by giving the R "time," he has given it a chance.
It is a difficult dance to remain cordial, however creating space simultaneously. That is why focusing on you & GAL is the way to go. Let him see a woman only a fool would leave. Continue to be respectful and validate, however do not pursue him in any way. I wouldn't want him to think he has all the power--he can make choices about IF he will work on things and you are going to sit back and wait for that? No way.
He has you blaming yourself and feeling as if because you were not sexual enough, he may just decide to walk out in a few months. It is always two people in a relationship and perhaps he could have also been doing more to create intimacy and closeness so that you had more desire for sex.
Maybe H needs to see what he is deciding to give up--or will decide on August 1. A fabulous and sexy woman who is also the mother of his children. Sorry, but right now hubby gets a big thumbs down from me. You don't have to walk on eggshells for him. You just be fabulous for YOU.
Thanks, BluWave.
I've been good at cordial today. We had a friendly family dinner with the kids. We all looked at the moon tonight.
DH has been giving me space.
I'm starting to line up some GAL activities for the weekend. It's a little tricky because I feel very fragile right now, so I don't want to spend a lot of time with friends for fear I will spill all about the marriage situation, which I don't want to do. Focusing on the kids and my health, and starting up with a small group at church in a couple of weeks.
Still trying to figure out how to best live during this limbo period.
Cordial didn't really work for me. It actually made me more focused on the situation, because I am such a naturally chatty person that I have to think all. the. time. about not initiating conversation.
Right now I'm trying to interact normally and focus my mental energies on the kids and GAL. No more relationship talks!
The kids and I went out for pizza and a play on Friday. Yesterday was errands mostly. Today is church and maybe a stroll in the woods on a new trail I've been meaning to check out.
H did hire someone to edit his book.
Rose,
I don't know if you have anybody to "spill" on, but you'll need somebody. I try not to say anything except here as far as specifics - but still need to lean on a couple of good friends I've had for 40+ years.
You're blessed to have your kids, they're going to help you focus away so much. Enjoy church - and a walk in nature is one of the best things you can do. Anything you can do to connect with the earth will recharge your batteries in a big way.
I'm glad your H got somebody to edit for him. He's going to have to learn what it's like without you. Have a great day.
Rose,
I don't know if you have anybody to "spill" on, but you'll need somebody. I try not to say anything except here as far as specifics - but still need to lean on a couple of good friends I've had for 40+ years.
You're blessed to have your kids, they're going to help you focus away so much. Enjoy church - and a walk in nature is one of the best things you can do. Anything you can do to connect with the earth will recharge your batteries in a big way.
I'm glad your H got somebody to edit for him. He's going to have to learn what it's like without you. Have a great day.
I came to the same decision about needing someone to talk to, so I told a good friend on Friday. Unfortunately, she lives many states away, but she'll be a good sounding board. She and her husband are our closest friends. We met them very early in our marriage. She was the only person I could think of who wouldn't think badly of me or H or make H feel like we couldn't reconcile.
Good morning Rose,
Just popping in to say good morning, and enjoy the time with the kids at church and while you are out and about. This is so invaluable and recharging that I highly recommend it to everyone. I had some of my darkest moments this past week, but getting to spend a couple of days with my daughters brought me out and provided me with some great strength. I worry most about how my sitch is affecting them, yet they focus on me and our time together and the joy is almost overwhelming.
I hope your day is a wonderful one and I send you my support and positive vibes that you may be encouraged to do what is good for you and your family in spite of the challenges.
H asked if I minded company on my walk on Sunday, so we went together and had a good time. No R talk.
Sunday night, we ML again.
I met with my counselor on Monday. We talked about using meditation techniques to stay in the present and not fret about what DH will decide. The IC also wants me to find a passion to give me more connections to the world other than H.
Then, yesterday afternoon, we went on another walk and H initiated R talk. It was a long talk. I did a good job of listening and validating for the first half. Lost sight of that a bit for e second half.
Now I'm feeling more than ever that he will decide to go. He did say, at one point, "Maybe it's just a midlife crisis." I kept my mouth shut.
Today is going to be tough. I need to use this as an opportunity to practice staying present in the moment.
Why is it so hard to behave the way I know I should?
H is having a hard day. He said he is looking forward to his business trip because he feels like there is a lot of tension at home. I think seeing me reminds him that he has to make a decision and that he doesn't know what he wants. He's being a little cold.
I find myself wanting to temp check, which I know is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
i can't make up his mind for him. I just need to give him space and time.
Why is that so hard?
Do you think he will notice if I put duck tape over my mouth? ;-)
Of course this is hard, he has you anxious and wondering if he will leave you or not. That is no way to treat a person that you love. When people feel hurt and rejected, their self esteem takes a hit and then they cling. I just don't like the way he is handling this. Like I said, I feel he is setting you up to fail.
I think you have to really take the focus off of what his decision will be and start thinking about your own decisions. Would your happy and most confident self be okay with the way he is treating you? Are you hanging on so tight out of fear? Would it be more natural to take a big step back, create space, and rethink if you want this man? Why is it ALL up to him? Just some things to think about.
You don't have to put anything over your mouth! You can say what you want. But, you can also take a big step back and start thinking about what YOU want and deserve in an R. And my guess is that it is not to walk and eggshells and worry if someone will walk out on you.
I'm sorry things are hard right now. Something about your Hs behavior really strikes a nerve with me. I wish I could shake some sense into this fool. The grass is only greener where you water it and you deserve at a minimum that much!
-Blu
Rose,
Dbing is about becoming a better you, so that only a fool would leave you. But no matter what the fools decision is you will be a better you. And the better you does what is right by you.
Blu states it very well in her post. Be confident, and do it for you.
Sending you support and encouragement as you go through this challenge.
Thanks, blu. And feel free to come shake some sense into him. I wish I could.
More and more, I think we're dealing with a MLC. Lucky us.
You're right--my confidence has taken a beating, and there is a tendency to cling too tightly out of fear.
My IC has given me some ideas for dealing with the fear.
I've thought about a physical separation, but I worry about it's effect on the kids.
Right now, H is on a business trip through Sunday, so we get some space.
The night before he left, we started watching Orange Is the New Black. It was a nice way for us to interact (we comment on shows as we watch) without tension. We used to watch shows together before the most recent bout of depression, so it felt normal.
I'm also continuing with GAL and working on stopping some clingy/pursuing behaviors.
Thanks, SadHub.
I am working on me, and plan to keep doing that.
Only time will tell if I'm dealing with a fool.
Rose, I really feel for you. I wish I could help you out. This is so unfair to you and I don't envision this going in a positive direction. Can we all just rename him Fool888?
If there is something I would like to do for you, it would be to help you access your most beautiful, confident, accomplished self. Wherever that might be, can you seek her out and remember how she felt, thought, and behaved? Was there a time in your life that you can remember that? Maybe when you got into college? when you got that first job? The birth of a baby? Helped out your bestfriend? All of that and more?
Because I think your BEST self would take one look at Fool888, shake her head, and really think twice about him. Am I saying you should walk away or give up on your M? Absolutely not! But I am suggesting that if you make a big shift in your thinking and behaving, you have much more power than you realize!
You have the power to feel better and get stronger, despite what he says or does. And let's face it, people are also attratced to confident people. So what can we do to help you find her? Let's stop focusing on H for a bit, he's a Fool888, and quite frankly will do what he is going to do anyway. His circus, his monkeys ...I keep reading that on every thread here :-)))
-Blu
This is great advice.
I've always wanted to try pottery. I found a class that starts in a week or so. Weekly for 7 weeks. I'm going to call later and find out if they still have room.
I've started the process to be confirmed in the church we have been attending, so there will be a small group meeting some Sundays for that through October.
I'm going with my kids to see some of the theater in our area.
I'm also doing one physical thing outside each weekend now that the weather is nice.
I've been exploring the musical tastes that we don't share.
Weekly IC.
And I have resumed planning our family vacation to Europe this summer. (Tickets bought pre BD.) The kids and I are going to have a blast whether H comes or not.
Any other suggestions? I'm also in the middle of a big project at work, and I'm maintaining a small but significant weight loss.
Thanks, I appreciate the response.
Yes, I am willing to work on the libido issue. I found MWD and this board through The Sex-Starved Marriage. Unfortunately, H doesn't think I can ever get my libido high enough to give him the passionate relationship he wants. I haven't hit the big M yet.
I am as sure as I can be about the affair. He might be going through an MLC, but self-doubt and wanting to (probably) divorce me are the only real signs. No crazy expenditures, no partying. He's an engaged parent. He is still kind and thoughtful in his daily interactions.
I worry about pushing him away if I'm less helpful and friendly than usual--it's tricky because he hasn't made a decision--but I kind of feel like I am a package deal, and he shouldn't be able to pick and choose the parts of me he wants to keep. What you said about letting him see what it's like to miss me really hit home.
Have you seen an OB-GYN about this? Most conventional doctors will not test your hormone leves, and don't believe that women need testosterone. They are wrong. You should have all those hormones tested, including your thyroid.
I asked my doctors several times over the years to test them, and they refused. (I was already being treated for thyroid disease.) Finally, I found a different doctor (by then, H had already started an EA) and she discovered that my testosterone levels were below normal and gave me a topical, plant-based cream. It made a real difference.
Don't let conventional doctors who are trained in a tradition that does not take women's problems seriously, hold you back on this.
Yep. My levels are normal.
I badgered the doctor into prescribing topical cream anyway. It did nothing for libido, and after 4 months, H suggested I stop taking it as the risk of liver problems seemed to outweigh the very slight change in lubrication.
Journaling:
H has been away since Wednesday at a work conference, so the R issue has been on the back burner. He's been texting as usual, and he called briefly one night (not usual).
The kids and I went out to dinner one night. Yesterday we went to a matinee of a professional theater company and had a great time.
Last night I started jotting down ideas for my spring/summer bucket list. I'm looking forward to a fun few months, full of simple pleasures. I'm not going to let marital limbo get in the way of enjoying them.
H gets back late tonight.
I'm not going to let marital limbo get in the way of enjoying them.
YES!!!
Good morning Rose,
It sounds if you are on a good path and finding some comfort and joy in doing what is good for you.
I hope it is a wonderful day for you.
H came back from his trip late last night and said he has made his decision--he wants to stay in the marriage and try to reconnect. He said there are some things we need to work on, and he will go to counseling.
Being open to counseling is huge.
I meet with my IC this morning. I'm going to ask her for recommendations for marriage counsellors.
I am very happy about this, but I know I still need many of the DB techniques. It sounds like the first emotions to penetrate the numbness are frustration, anger, etc., so I am going to need mad validation skills. (He hasn't actually said anything angry or frustrated, but he mentioned those feelings when I asked him how he decided.)
Rose8888:
That sounds like great news. I'm sure the common advice is to take it slow and still have zero expectations. Many of us expect the Hollywood reunion - but it does not happen that way. Yes, the DB,DR are going to be key.
As a man speaking - you need to play a little hard to get. There is nothing a man wants more than to chase his girl. Don't throw yourself at him, but don't reject him either. Make him work a little - but again as a guy speaking play fair. It would also help if you gave him a little too. Make him feel like he is getting what he wants too - just a little at a time.
I hope that helps. I'm rooting for ya.
Rose,
This is a good development for you. Have you worked with a DB coach. They may be able to provide guidance for you and this opportunity. I wish you well as you work through this and my prayers will have you in them that you may be guided and that your H will soften his heart and see what he has in you and the family.
Rose8888:
That sounds like great news. I'm sure the common advice is to take it slow and still have zero expectations. Many of us expect the Hollywood reunion - but it does not happen that way. Yes, the DB,DR are going to be key.
As a man speaking - you need to play a little hard to get. There is nothing a man wants more than to chase his girl. Don't throw yourself at him, but don't reject him either. Make him work a little - but again as a guy speaking play fair. It would also help if you gave him a little too. Make him feel like he is getting what he wants too - just a little at a time.
I hope that helps. I'm rooting for ya.
I hear you on the Hollywood reunion. I know this is just the beginning of working on the issues that got us to this point. In addition to MC, I'm keeping my IC to help me work on my stuff.
Playing hard to get is probably a great suggestion for most people. In our case, the biggest issue in our marriage is that our differences in sexual libido and my poor handling of that situation has made H feel that I don't desire him enough. So, for me, playing hard to get would feel like more of the same to him.
I need to project confidence (no clinging or desperation!), but I also need to flirt and initiate.
Thanks for the prayers, SadHub.
I haven't followed up on DB coaching, because my counseling budget is going toward my in-person IC and now MC.
I am glad to read this! Keep doing what you are doing--always put you first, hold your head up high, and don't ever let H decide your worth. If you can reconnect and find a good marriage therapist, hopefully your intimacy will grow over time. I still reserve my position that he is just as responsible for that as you! He's gotta be desirable and sexy for you, help you feel safe with him, and commit to what you need to get turned on!
It takes Two to Tango! :-)
-Blu
What a positive development, Rose888. It's so good to see this.
BLuWave is right - it surely does take two people in the bedroom, so if he is the one with the complaint, he's going to have to do his part. I think that a lot of men think that women's libido is like a switch that can instantly turn on. Not so much. He needs to be willing to learn and change his own habits, too.
Sending positive thoughts your way!
Phoebe and Blu, thanks so much for the good thoughts!
Honestly, in the past, H has put more effort into this area. I've been selfish and clueless. It's a bad combination. I have had my "come to Jesus" moment and have seen my failures in this area.
Also, several weeks ago, right after BD, I wrote H a letter about this issue, and I can see that he is acting on some of what I said in that letter. He is willing to make changes.
This isn't to say that the problem is all mine, but I own the lion's share of this issue. (I would say that he owns the lion's share of the depression issue.) The communication issue we share equally.
H's detachment seems to have increased since he decided to stay and try to make things work.
He's also stressed about tight deadlines at work and an issue with one of our kids that erupted yesterday.
I think I need to give him a little more space and stop initiating any physical contact. (Before BD, we had a lot of casual touch in our relationship, so it's a habit.)
We haven't had any R talk other than some brief chats about which counselor to use. (First appointment on Monday!) My goal is to have minimal R talk outside of the counseling sessions, at least at first.
Stil working on my own stuff and GAL, although I am going to hold off on the pottery class for now, I think.
The kid situation has resolved as much as it's going to, so H's stress has eased up.
He seems to have reacted to me giving him more space by coming a bit closer. He initiated physical contact outside the bed twice the week, for the first time since BD.
Still no R talk, other than some very general discussion of needing to consider the impact to the MR if he takes on a certain work project in the fall that would require lots of travel.
I still have no idea what he is thinking or feeling about the R, so I am both looking forward to and dreading our counseling appointment on Monday.
Lots of errands this weekend. Only GAL was going to see a movie with one of my sons last night.
Hi Rose,
Keep up the GALing. Stay focused on you and not so much on your H. Stay away from worrying about what H is thinking or feeling. It takes up space in your mind that takes away from your focus on you. This can help you stay present in the moment and not forecast potential future outcomes.
I encourage you to go to the counseling appt with the Dbing approach of " acting as if".
This will put you in a sound mind frame, and help you be in control of you no matter what.
I'm sending positive vibes and my prayers to you and your family.
SadHub (or anyone else who wants to chime in), can you talk more about using the "act as if" strategy in MC?
Act as if what?
It's been a week since H told me he is going to "try to stay and see if we can reconnect." We haven't had an R talk all week, and I am very anxious to learn more about how he thinks things are going, I'm biting my tongue hard to avoid starting a talk now. Less than 24 hours until our counseling appointment, and I know it will be better to wait to have the talk in the session.
Act as if the desired outcome will happen, as if the MC session will go well, as if you will be OK regardless of the outcome. That kind of thing. Easier said than done, I know.
I hope that your session with the MC goes well tomorrow, and that you have a very pro-marriage counselor.
Hi Rose,
I think Phoebe hit the nail right on the head.
The "act as if" mind set sets up to react to the best case scenario. It is counter intuitive, but when we do this, we feel better, we create a more positive influence for a good outcome. if things don't work out as if, we are still standing in a better place.
On the other hand when we go into a situation acting as if the worst will happen, we help create the worse case scenario in many cases.
As Phoebe says it is easier said than done, because many of our emotional protections from years of disappointments, wants us to protect ourselves by being prepared for a not so good outcome. Unfortunately that is when self fulfilling prophecies can take place.
This is hard stuff, Rose. Try and remember that even tho H has made his "decision," he is still struggling with his feelings and some confusion. It is a long process to work through all this. I would say, keep focusing on you and your happiness as much as you can. Have patience with yourself and him. You don't need to change for him.
-Blu
This is hard stuff, Rose. Try and remember that even tho H has made his "decision," he is still struggling with his feelings and some confusion. It is a long process to work through all this. I would say, keep focusing on you and your happiness as much as you can. Have patience with yourself and him. You don't need to change for him.
-Blu
Thanks, Blu.
We went to counseling and then went out to dinner and talked some more. He said he's having a hard time wanting to re-engage. He doesn't want to open himself up to be hurt again.
It's clear I need to focus on my mental health and try to be happy no matter what happens with the R.
It'll be two weeks before we see the therapist again because I have a work trip.
She wants us to come prepared to talk about what we each need to be "reasonably happy" in the marriage.
I'm feeling sad and discouraged today, like I had my chance earlier in our marriage and lost it. I feel like I need to hide those feelings from H because they will just lead to more R talk, and that won't help H become more attached.
Rose I struggle with those thoughts sometimes, but everyone is partially responsible, even your H. You can't focus on what you perceive as your failures. If it was something you can work on and it benefits you for you, then work on it. Otherwise let the H tell you in MC that he needs something from you. Something I feel that I failed, may not even be a concern for my W, so there is no reason to worry about it.
H and I had a date last night, and H brought up the R. He mentioned that I have been more into him since BD than I have ever been. He feels like the risk of losing him is what made me want him. He worries that when I feel completely secure again, I will lose my desire, and we will go back to a sex-starved marriage.
But he doesn't want to keep us in the current state of insecurity.
So he's brainstorming ways to create and maintain just enough uncertainty to maintain my interest.
When we phrase it like this, it sounds like the distancer/pursuer dynamic. Any good ideas on how to correct this?
H has definitely been the pursuer sexually, but I think he is also often the pursuer emotionally as well--although I can pursue emotionally at times.
Hi Rose,
So lot's going on in your sitch, anxiety and fears are high, and things are changing quickly! Deep breaths. Try and take this day by day.
I want to leave you with this, because my own sitch is all I really know; for me this has been a rollercoaster for years. The year leading up to DB I can see now where things were falling apart. I can even look beyond that and there were signs way back when. When he first gave up and while he was gone was the hardest. This last year, the piecing, has also proved to be up and down. There will be a few weeks when things settle, we feel close, and I start to feel hopeful, and then BAM--a big fight and my PDSD kicks in. Then there was last night where we had this nice talk--a lot of information was exchanged, a lot of tears and raw emotions, but no one yelled or attacked. It was hard to hear some of it, but we all need the truth, painful or not.
So why am I telling you all of this? Just to highlight that things--people, feelings, life--is ever changing. Your sitch is still relatively new. It's only been a short while that you have even had to think about "what if my M was over?" That is heavy stuff! You have a life and a family with this man! You are still dealing with the anxiety and fear that that is even a possibility some day. So go easy on yourself.
Take it day be day. Try and be gentle on yourself and H. You didn't get to this place over night--maybe over months or years--and it could take longer to come out on the other side. Try and understand that if this is truly what both of you want, it can work. Try and be open to taking care of you before him and understand your own value. Try and really listen and understand him and how he got here.
Most importantly, stop and smell the roses. Those little moments--for you and him, or just for you--are where some of the best healing takes place.
-Blu
Hi rose
Thank you for stopping by my thread. I have caught up on your thread and I am so sorry you are going through this. To make changes like this while your husband is covertly giving you this ultimatum is just so challenging and I am heartbroken for you.
As you picked up on my thread, my husband had issues with Ed. I never ever thought of leaving him or even flirting with other men because of it. I was really frustrated and felt rejected as well. Regardless of what your husband decides, don't forget your value. You raised 4 of his children and now he decides he wants something different? This is about him, not you. The fact that that you are seeking to get help to restore your marriage only furthers your value
Why not schedule an appt for you and husband with a sex therapist ?
BTW I am loving the advise Blu wave has been giving you
Thanks, Blu and JujuB. I appreciate the perspective and advice.
I am doing good, all things considered. I'm working on GAL, the only R talks are ones H initiates and I'm not getting too emotional during them. I seem to be in a sweet spot where I can recognize my flaws and failures in the marriage without having to undermine my estimation of my personal worth.
Undoubtedly this is in large part because I have a lot of optimism that the MR will work out. PMA will be much much harder if things start getting rocky again.
Our second counseling appointment is Monday. I like the idea of a sex therapist, but H doesn't. I appreciate him agreeing to any counseling, as this is a 180 for him.
Recent GAL activities:
- attending an out-of-state work conference where I met lots of influential people
- tackled a big weed patch and transplanted other plants into the space
- bought concert tickets for me and three of my kids for a concert this summer
- played a board game with some of my kids
- enjoying our hammock
The current trajectory is good, but I realize I don't completely control the course.
Tonight H and I have our joint book group. Tomorrow I have my church small group.
Our second counseling appointment turned into our last counseling appointment. Not because H changed his mind about participating, but because it was clear to both of us that she really didn't think she could do anything else for us.
So that was frustrating.
H has been gone since Thursday at a work conference. We're trying our new plan of reduced communication while apart. It feels healthier. I'm not constantly checking my phone.
I'm continuing to work on my own issues--not apologizing excessively, not being defensive, relaxing some of the internal rules I have for myself. Also reading a book on passionate marriage.
H is clearly trying to reconnect, and doing it in a way that shows he has been listening to me and is willing to make changes.
While H has been gone, I tackled a huge (for me) yard project--weeding all the flower beds and spreading over 4 cubic yards of mulch.
He gets back tonight, and I'm mentally working to not expect a certain reaction from him but to let my own feeling of accomplishment be enough of a reward for the work. (Generally, H is good about appreciating my efforts, but as part of detaching, I'm working to provide my own emotional needs.)
This weekend the kids and I did several things on my summer bucket list, mostly involving food. I also out the chain back on S10's bike, which is something I would typically put on H's list and then fret/nag until it was finished.
I could use some advice, if anyone has a minute or two.
H got back from his trip late last night. Today is my birthday. When I was reviewing the schedule with the kids this morning, I mentioned that tonight is the high school academic awards ceremony and both our twins are getting awards. (Individual teachers give awards based on their own criteria. We don't know what awards my kids are getting, or how many, only that they are each getting at least one.)
H mentioned that our college son would have to take them, because we have plans. One of my twins (the one who struggles with depression and anxiety) mentioned that he wanted us there.
Ordinarily, I would attend, I already cancelled my usual exercise class so I could go.
But.
One of the things I have been working on is being more flexible and not shooting down H's plans if they interfere with The Schedule.
I'm thinking I need to go with H and miss the awards ceremony, even though the kids won't really understand. (They don't know the marriage is struggling.)
Thoughts?
H is very sensitive to my moods and thoughts, so I need to go all in and be excited about his plans if I miss the ceremony. Otherwise, it will be a lose-lose situation.
Bumping in the hope someone will respond. :-)
Rose,
I am not sure if this is good advice or not but want to comment. Is there family that can go to the boys ceremony so they have someone there.
If H is that sensitive I agree that you should go as long as you are OK with the outcome to your children.
It is a tough call because I did not focus on my W in the past and am paying the price now.
You may have to have a talk with the boys afterwards to explain why you did not attend.
Hope this helps.
Thanks, JimKao.
Turns out H knows me too well. He cancelled his plans (which he booked before we knew about the ceremony) because he felt he would be wondering if I was stressed about missing the ceremony and that would spoil the evening for him and for me.
He said he's not upset with me, just the situation, but I'm having trouble believing that.
This unfortunately pokes at his issues and my issues.
Journaling:
We haven't had an R talk. Our last one was the night of our second (and last) MC session.
On the plus side:
* we're getting along
* our sex life is the best it's ever been
* I see indications H is changing some things as a result of things we've discussed
* I'm continuing to make the changes that came out of my IC sessions
* both of us are working at healthy detachment
On the negative side:
* I have no idea if H is actually feeling more attached, or if he is acting as if
I have to work really hard some days to refrain from initiating R talk, but I don't see how asking "Do you love me now?" will help anything.
At times I get panicky that he will announce suddenly that he tried, but it's not working, and he's out of here. Other times I worry that he is staying out of duty but really wishes he had left.
I'm also dealing with some uncomfortable feelings about H starting to GAL with the kids in the afternoons while I'm working. My inappropriately attached self worries that it's a precursor to him leaving. I don't want to be that person! Him doing things with the kids during summer vacation should be a good thing!
So, mostly good, as long as I can keep from freaking out over the stories I tell myself.
Rose
Caught up on your sitch and glad you are where you are at! (wish I was as i am heading for Divorce)
You can't control the things you are worried about and I would only guess that the second guessing and anxiety from thinking about these things are going to slow down your progress. I know its easy to say from my shoes but if you can focus on the positive, enjoy that you are getting along, better sex life and be confident I am guessing it will make you much more attractive to H.
Different scenario but my therapist has helped me to stop worrying about my STBX and what she does with my D7 or lack thereof....she wasn't spending the time and giving her the attention needed which I was thinking about day and night. I still think about other negative things about how I am going to handle things with my daughter but working on it. Her suggestion was be positive, focus on the good things you can control, and dont focus on the uncontrollable.
Good luck on reconnecting!
Thanks! Your advice sounds eerily like what I tell myself, but it really helps to hear it from someone besides me.
I'm sending good thoughts for you and your daughter.
I feel like you and I have a very similar situation. My husband has taken a 6 month break however. We talk about the possibility of reconciling but he doesn't believe that I am able to be as sexual as he needs/wants. He doesn't think I have it in me. I tried to explain that if he does things that make me feel special, sexy, desirable, he will see a much different result but he feels it's something he shouldn't have to work for. Do you think it's possible to get the spark back or is that a pipe dream?
I feel like you and I have a very similar situation. My husband has taken a 6 month break however. We talk about the possibility of reconciling but he doesn't believe that I am able to be as sexual as he needs/wants. He doesn't think I have it in me. I tried to explain that if he does things that make me feel special, sexy, desirable, he will see a much different result but he feels it's something he shouldn't have to work for. Do you think it's possible to get the spark back or is that a pipe dream?
My husband has those doubts as well. He's been discouraged that some of the physical signs of arousal that were present in April and May have faded. He's worried that without those I will return to my previous behavior, and he doesn't want to live in that marriage anymore.
In my case, though, I can't point to anything my husband should be doing that he isn't. It will take time for me to prove to him that I have made a lasting change.
Have you considered sex counseling? It's expensive, and I wasn't able to talk my H into it, but it's cheaper than divorce.
I'm playing around with some dietary changes (reducing coffee and wine, for starters), but it's too early to tell if that will make any difference.
I've posted a lot on this issue and have at times lead threads to be hijacked in multipaged discussions or debates. Fortunately we are on DB forums where even when emotions run high, respect for other forum members runs high as well.
I will try to be brief but want to share an alternative point of view. This isn't to say it's "right". But it may help you to understand how your H looks at the situation.
Look at a spectrum that runs from 'icing on the cake' to 'the cake itself'. From things that are nice, things that are important, and things that are necessary.
Nice things might be things like reading the same books, watching the same movies, a shared hobby. It's great when they line up, but no big deal.
Important things might be things like planning for retirement, parenting the kids well, or sharing a religion if both are strong of faith.
Necessary things might include having a roof over your head, having food to eat, and feeling physically safe with each other.
I think a lot of the misunderstanding about sex is whether it is a nice thing, and important thing, or a necessary thing. Oftentimes one spouse things it's a nice/important thing, while the other feels it is necessary. Right or wrong, this is often the viewpoint.
If H hears "if you make me feel desirable then..." it might be hard for him because to him this is a non-conditional requirement. He might feel sexual neglect as harmful as physical abuse. Can you imagine how shocking it would be to hear "if you treat me better you'll find I don't hit you" would be?
Please forum, don't think I'm equating sexual neglect and physical abuse. It obviously isn't, and I'm not saying she's wrong and H is right. I am strictly trying to help her understand how they can look at the same situation and see different things, and why H might have a hard time with conditional concessions.
Rose88,
I am sorry about your sitch.
Have you considered going for sex therapy on your own? Also have you read Michele's Sex starved marriage?
The point Zeus is making is found in Michele's SSM.
I was in a SSM for many years. After reading Michele's SSM, I finally got what the x had been trying to tell me for years.
I'll add this because it literally came to me in a dream just now.
He tries to explain how important it is to you, how it's necessary to him. You hand him a list of what you need to feel sexual desire, and what you'd need to be the woman he wants to be. You ask "which of these items is unreasonable, what is on this list that you can't provide me?" And he looks at it in despair and defeat and says "I don't know, everything looks fine and I want to do it, I just know no matter what I do somehow some condition won't be met right and I will end up dying inside..."
Rose88,
I am sorry about your sitch.
Have you considered going for sex therapy on your own? Also have you read Michele's Sex starved marriage?
The point Zeus is making is found in Michele's SSM.
I was in a SSM for many years. After reading Michele's SSM, I finally got what the x had been trying to tell me for years.
I have read Michele's SSM. That was what lead me to DR and the boards. And I agree, I finally got it.
I wish I hadn't been so deaf to what H was saying for years.
The thought of losing H, combined with reuniting after a non-marriage-related separation, jolted my libido to a level I hadn't seen before. That faded about a month ago, and I've returned to needing lubrication and not always orgasming.
My behavior is still placing sex in the Critical/Necessary category. We have sex more days than we don't. I initiate. I am responsive when he initiates. I touch and flirt and admire during the day.
But H has noticed the change in physical symptoms.
And he worries it's the first step in a return to the old marriage where I had sex mostly because I thought I had to.
It's going to take time for me to show him the change is real. And I fear that even if he sees that it is, he'll decide he needs someone whose desire is as strong as his, and that the part I can control is not enough.
I hadn't thought of doing sex therapy alone. The counsellors I've looked into around here only talk about treating couples, but I'm going to take another look.
Zeus, I understand what you are saying, and I (now) agree.
We have two issues now. H does not trust that the change will last, and H wants a wife for whom sex is also a necessity.
I have done a complete 180 in terms of behavior and mental attitude about sex, but I haven't found a way to get my desire to that level short of the fear of losing him, and even that didn't last.
Hopefully, over time, H will see the change is lasting and will decide he can be happy with that.
Rose, thank you. My posts were to help sr9, sounds like you've done a lot of thinking on this.
Obviously there is a two way street. He needs to own his behavior. Part of that may be what he provides to you to meet your needs. Part of that is to manage through his fears and insecurities. Part of that is to accept that we don't get everything we want in life.
One of your needs is to feel safe, that you have a man you can depend on being there. He needs to realize that his fear of being sexually unfulfilled is a trigger for your fear he'll walk. It's really tricky to work through this as a couple, because when you or he voice your feelings and needs it is liable to wake up fears in their partner. It's hard to work as a team through this without help. Ideally the same way that you are doing what you can to accommodate him, he should be doing what he can to assure you that he isn't walking.
And he needs to understand that he won't always be sexually fulfilled every moment, and that if there is a tough week or month or bad night, he can't overreact and extrapolate and blow that out of proportion. Finally, the part about not getting everything you want is critical too, because a man's appetite is insatiable and there will always be hunger for more. This next sentence is important to me, I've never found a way to express it before so here goes: Sex isn't important to a man because it fulfills a sexual hunger, sex is important to a man because it's his partner's way of acknowledging and validating the pain of living with constant endless unquenchable desire. So he needs to still live with that, that's just part of being a man.
Just remember one thing Rose...maybe he is trying to assure you he isn't going to leave. But then when he voices his fears, you get afraid. Or he assures you that he won't leave...but you stil have your doubts because he seems distant at times, or one day he spoke with a viewpoint that he used when he was in the fog. My point is that it's eerily parallel to his need for reassurances and his fears. So to some point you will just have to work through these as well, and accept that it won't be perfect, and that you'll never have the absolute trust and commitment that you crave because that isn't possible in this world.
I'm getting dizzy. I think I have some clarity and then it gets so complicated I sometimes lose the thread. Maybe I am murking up the waters. I guess I could've just said you both have to do your best and accept what that looks like, and trust that it will get better as months turn to years and your track record becomes better and better. I don't know your sitch well, I was drawn here by another poster I follow...but I'll keep up now. Keep it going Rose!
Hi Rose, I am happy that you and your husband are working on your marriage and that things are better, including your sex life. I could be wrong but I get the impression that you feel that if you cannot maintain a certain level of sexual arousal your marriage is at risk? What does your counselor say about this? My husband often had trouble performing, and while dissapointed, it was never a thought that I would leave or make threats to the marriage. To do so would be humiliating to my husband or to any person. It almost becomes like a test and to live with that type of pressure is very stressful.
To me, marriage is commitment and faithfulness. No ultimatums, no tests.
Zues, I like how you categorized nice things, important things, and necessary things... So many marital problems could be avoided if we just communicated this directly and simply in the beginning of our relationships and reviewed in a kind and open way throughout the relationship. Put it all in writing so no misunderstandings. (Maybe you should get a second job as a marriage counselor
)
Most people do not set out to INTENTIONALY neglect their partner's needs. Whether it be communication or sex. When they do, I think it is a form of control and some type of power struggle, which can be just as bad as physical abuse no? I know I am contradicting myself because with physical abuse you leave a marriage but do you do so if partner rejects sex or communication for control? (I didn't. And in past year before BD my husband was intentionally rejecting opportunitities for sex ) Are they even doing this consciously? In a way, that type of control is even worse then physical abuse because of the mind F... No pun intended.
I agree that sex should never be an exchange because that is a form of control. ("Only way we have sex is if there is romantic dinner involved" or "I will only stay married if we have sex"). It should be an act performed to make each other happy plus all the other benefits that come with it
.
JujuB, yes, I think my marriage might be at risk. I say "might" because H is generally a very loyal person, and even when he was his most detached and not yet committed to trying to reattach, he was conflicted about the right course of action.
I hear what you are saying about marriage being a commitment. I agree.
However, I gave lip service to that while failing to meet one of H's critical needs for 22 years. And he stuck with me and met MY needs all that time.
It's understandable that, finding himself emotionally detached, he would think that if he ever wanted a partner who desired him the way he wants to be desired, now is his chance to try to find that.
I think my libido would be less of a risk to the marriage if I had met H's needs better for the last two decades.
Rose
I disagree. It is not understandable that husband wants to leave marriage after 22 years and 4 kids to find someone that is more sexually compatible. Now if he does, that is out of your control and completely on him. Don't accept that blame and guilt. Just work on what you can now. He communicated his needs, and you are doing your best to fulfill them. That says a lot about you and your commitment to your partner. I am sure there were needs of yours that were never being met, none of which you would leave a marriage for!
My husband left and said he wanted someone more like his mom..who is domestic superwoman and cited my lack of doing his laundry as a big reason. (Meanwhile he once told me to never do his laundry because I shrunk clothing) Before he left, I was doing best to run all his errands and domestic needs. But looking back, it could never be good enough because he was looking for something to justify a selfish action he wanted to take. So yes, his needs of service were not being met, but my needs were not either and I remained loyal.
I truly hope he looks at the bigger picture, which is a faithful and committed wife and companion. That desire from someone which he is seeking is temporary and unsustainable and will never compare to family and committment. And so illogical. What if he finds someone that desires him 24/7 and she ends up with endometrial cancer? Will he just leave her, since she won't be able to desire him the way he needs to?
I hope he realizes this. I hate seeing you take the blame.
That being said...I have a lot of hope for your situation and your husband does seem to be making an effort and trying! And you are doing great with the not asking for reassurances.
Rose, thank you. My posts were to help sr9, sounds like you've done a lot of thinking on this.
Obviously there is a two way street. He needs to own his behavior. Part of that may be what he provides to you to meet your needs. Part of that is to manage through his fears and insecurities. Part of that is to accept that we don't get everything we want in life.
One of your needs is to feel safe, that you have a man you can depend on being there. He needs to realize that his fear of being sexually unfulfilled is a trigger for your fear he'll walk. It's really tricky to work through this as a couple, because when you or he voice your feelings and needs it is liable to wake up fears in their partner. It's hard to work as a team through this without help. Ideally the same way that you are doing what you can to accommodate him, he should be doing what he can to assure you that he isn't walking.
And he needs to understand that he won't always be sexually fulfilled every moment, and that if there is a tough week or month or bad night, he can't overreact and extrapolate and blow that out of proportion. Finally, the part about not getting everything you want is critical too, because a man's appetite is insatiable and there will always be hunger for more. This next sentence is important to me, I've never found a way to express it before so here goes: Sex isn't important to a man because it fulfills a sexual hunger, sex is important to a man because it's his partner's way of acknowledging and validating the pain of living with constant endless unquenchable desire. So he needs to still live with that, that's just part of being a man.
Just remember one thing Rose...maybe he is trying to assure you he isn't going to leave. But then when he voices his fears, you get afraid. Or he assures you that he won't leave...but you stil have your doubts because he seems distant at times, or one day he spoke with a viewpoint that he used when he was in the fog. My point is that it's eerily parallel to his need for reassurances and his fears. So to some point you will just have to work through these as well, and accept that it won't be perfect, and that you'll never have the absolute trust and commitment that you crave because that isn't possible in this world.
I'm getting dizzy. I think I have some clarity and then it gets so complicated I sometimes lose the thread. Maybe I am murking up the waters. I guess I could've just said you both have to do your best and accept what that looks like, and trust that it will get better as months turn to years and your track record becomes better and better. I don't know your sitch well, I was drawn here by another poster I follow...but I'll keep up now. Keep it going Rose!
Thank you so much for this post, Zues. You articulate things that I've been slowly clarifying in my own mind.
I think H IS trying to reassure me as much as he can while being honest about his feelings and needs. There is nothing in his behavior now that indicates he won't be around in the future. He talks about plans for us once the kids are grown.
And yes, I have to learn to deal with the lack of absolute security. Because let's face it. Life isn't 100% certain anyway.
Thanks for your clarification, Rose.
I won't suggest that you read The Passionate Marriage because it seems you've read this.
Something about your H jumps out at me. Where does he get his expectations about how a passionate M or sex looks like? Is he unhappy because his expectations are not met or is he unhappy because he thinks that he is not fulfilling you and he thinks you're unhappy?
He seems to be pretty hung up on physical symptoms as barometers of sexual and thus M satisfaction. Could it be that this issue is a smokescreen for other issues?
Before I ramble on and forget what I want to say, the point I want to make is that instead of viewing sex as a 1 course meal, why don't both of you view it as at least a 3 course meal?
And you dont always have to have all 3 courses. Sometimes, appetiser, sometimes dessert and sometimes main course. Not all meals have to be mindblowing Michelin starred meals. Some meals can be meh.
Also have you considered sensual but not necessarily sexual contexts and activities? Massages, and eh, performances for his eyes only etc etc?
Disclaimer though - this is advice from someone who didn't manage to save my M.
I apologise if someone else has made the same suggestions because I skimmed through your thread rather quickly.
Just journaling.
Mostly more of the same here. Things feel really good in most ways. I think if you had shown the me of two years ago a snapshot of our life now, I would think our M was great--possibly the best it's ever been.
I don't trust the image.
I know now that I don't know what is going on in H's head and heart.
However, his actions are great. It looks like my work might be relocating me, and H is actively researching housing and schools. No indication he has any hesitation about making the move with us.
I know I need to stay vigilant with my 180s. Some of them feel natural at this point. Some, I can see slipping a bit, and I need to refocus on them.
I do not take this for granted. Sometimes my head starts worrying about What Ifs, but I work hard to get off that train.
So, life is good, but I know problems can resurface at unexpected moments, so I don't claim that we have made it.
Grl, I missed this in my pre-vacation rush.
I think you raise some interesting issues, but most of them would require H to be willing to change some of his views, and I don't think it would be good for me to bring that up. I need to focus on me and what I can change.
That said, I am doing some things to up my sensual and sexual confidence, because I realize I have pretty much zero. I want to do that for me, and if H enjoys the side effects, that's a bonus.
I like your post. Firstly I am happy things are going well. Secondly you know the keep going with your own work .
It is great you don't take things for granted, either with H or even within your own changes. That is good as long as you use it to avoid complacency but do not live in fear.
Would you be Willing to comment on what helped you most turn around the situation?I ask for newbies and not so new!
I like your post. Firstly I am happy things are going well. Secondly you know the keep going with your own work .
It is great you don't take things for granted, either with H or even within your own changes. That is good as long as you use it to avoid complacency but do not live in fear.
Would you be Willing to comment on what helped you most turn around the situation?I ask for newbies and not so new!
To be honest, I think the most important things had to do with H and with circumstances. H is at heart a very kind and loyal man. (So much so that I worry he is just stuffing down his feelings and things haven't improved as much from his perspective as I think.)
In terms of circumstances, our M had a lot of strengths along with the major libido issue, so there was a lot to build on. And I clued in relatively early--before H had made a decision to leave. There was no A.
The things that helped me most were immediately seeking an IC, GAL, and figuring out that the detachment I needed was not of the "treat him like a neighbor" variety. Also, stopping R talks and finding things we could do together that didn't tempt us to talk about the R.
Really though, I don't have all the answers. I feel lucky.
Glad so many things seem to be moving in a positive direction Rose!
Your recent posts/sitch kinda struck a chord with me, because I find myself kind of on the other side where my W is generally doing more to try and meet my touch/intimacy needs, but I have a lot of concerns over how serious she is, and whether it will last.
It sounds like you're really putting effort into initiating, flirting, being responsive, etc and certainly that's critical.
Can't guarantee your H is having the same thoughts I am, but wanted to share my own personal (possibly flawed, probably selfish) thinking from my current struggles just in case any of it was helpful or gives another perspective.
I don't have any great insights on maintaining/improving libido, or convincing your H that your libido is improved, but really I wonder if libido is a bit of a red herring. (Certainly your needs being met is hugely important, and a very worthwhile long-term project for the two of you, but right now I'm just focusing on the short-term)
At the base level, what I really desire is to know that my W wants to please me, and that she will continue to want to please me. Her having a raging libido would be one way to guarantee that, but I know she has the lower libido so relying on her being in the mood seems like a very shaky long-term proposition. So maybe don't worry too much over trying to convince your H that your libido or desire for sex has improved, but instead try to show him that your desire to do what it takes to please *him* has improved. I think the latter might be easier for H to trust.
Men, sexually, are pretty straight forward. It's like a button where a few minutes of effort can make the man feel incredible. From my personal male "all about me" perspective, why doesn't my wife want to push that button all the time? Even if my W isn't in the mood, or is busy, or whatever... there are a lot of creative ways to push the button. If my wife had a button like that, I would be pounding it constantly... just seems like a no-brainer.
So maybe show your husband that your libido/arousal isn't a limiting factor, you just really appreciate him and like pushing his button because of how it makes him feel.
Rose888 - I just wanted to stop by and say "thanks" for the visit on my thread. As I'm sure you can understand I'm in a pretty fragile place and perhaps reacted poorly to your well-meant comments.
I will confess that prior to this visit I hadn't checked out your own sitch and might (or might not) perhaps have some helpful observations. My W and I are almost 10 years older than you and other than the heady days when we first me have pretty much always had a - shall we say - subdued sex life. Not by my choice. I had accepted this because of the love and devotion I had for my W and she for me. I'm glad that this is a relatively anonymous forum and I hope you aren't too delicate because I'm going to go into some details. We had come to an "agreement" in our late 20s that I would stop pestering her for sex several times a week and she would agree to once a week on Sunday mornings. Sometimes it would happen more often but at least for me it meant that there was a time I could ask and not be rudely rejected. Given how the "calendar" works and other issues certainly not every Sunday was taken advantage of. Another factor was that my W wasn't interested in sex (I think there are some deeper irrelevant to your sitch issues around that). Other than in certain positions she was practically never able to achieve orgasm and those positions (her on top) got increasingly difficult and painful for her as the years passed and honestly I don't think it was worth the effort for her so she would mostly just lay there and "do the duty". I would do my d@mndest within the limits of what she would allow to help her achieve orgasm but even when she would let me try 80% of the time it failed.
Your H is probably terrified of getting older and losing the ability to "perform". Because of weight issues and a tendency to drink a bit too much pre BD (weight is now way down and beer consumption minimal) over time my ability to "get to the finish line" had diminished over time. In recent years W and I would joke about me getting a "participation ribbon" for trying. Around this time thankfully W started putting more effort into her part to get me aroused but not really a lot.
If I had been asked how I described my sex life with W for the last 20+ years - I would have to say "barely adequate". I have never talked to W about this and the way things are going, probably never will.
How did I manage to retain my desire for W despite the lack of sexual gratification? I openly acknowledged to her that sex was a way of her "binding" me to her and we both knew that a couple of weeks without and I would be grumpy and less agreeable to her wishes. Scary to think that it's been 4 months now. I think a lot of it was her ability to be charming and loving in other ways. There were regular "I Love Yous", we would always walk hand in hand, hugs, casual kisses and touches as we passed by each other - I'm starting to cry now - sorry. I would also compensate through masturbation mid-week and on Saturday morning so that I wouldn't be too eager and have the job finished too quickly. I would sometimes use porn to assist me in getting interested in that.
One thing that was a major issue for me and may well be for your husband as well was my inability to bring my W to orgasm. Core to my belief in myself as a virile man was the need to sexually satisfy her and it always made me feel low that I couldn't. That might be part of the issue with you and your H. He perhaps doesn't feel that he's doing good enough or that you're not trying hard enough because you don't cross the finish line. My W was able to reassure me very early on that it wasn't a problem for her and that she just enjoyed being there for me. I always did keep trying though. Since W had a poor body image and was rather a prude she wasn't open to much if any experimenting. The fact that the positions that did work were painful for her made me reluctant to ask.
As a side note - on BD2 - not only did I lose my appetite (and a lot of weight) but I also became impotent. Both appetites have returned somewhat but it's still at a very low ebb - certainly an issue for the fragile male ego.
Anyway - just some things to think about from the other side of the fence from a man who was deeply in love with a woman who was poorly able to sexually satisfy him. You've mentioned being open to new ideas - most of which are around the sex act itself. Perhaps think of other ways to please him that don't involve you getting across the same finish line. I know that I could wear my "participation ribbon" with pride.
P.S. - you mentioned having to do the forums on your tablet or phone. You may want consider investing in an inexpensive Bluetooth keyboard. It will make your life easier for both this and other activities such as emailing and Facebook.
Hugs
PPS - irrelevant perhaps - Yes this is the same W who is a WW and from the evidence I found was very sexually stimulated by OM at least at the beginning of the A. She was also very sexually stimulated by me at the beginning of our R or when she really wanted something (the house we are in and our second child are two examples). I recognized early on the look of triumph and power she had on her face after sex especially when she thought she had done a particularly good job. One of the many blows to my ego is that she is being sexually satisfied by another man in ways that I could not.
Rose888 -- just a tech tip: you said you shared your computer w/ kids. You could create a separate account with its own login & password for yourself, and just be sure to log out when you're done. If you google "create a user account Windows" (or Mac), there should be many tutorials. HTH.
Could you give me a sense of how different your & your H's libido were? For example, he'd like to do it every night and you're more like once a month?
Also, maybe your drive is very much attached subconsciously to your H's behavior. Is he a good partner in other ways? Does it do his fair share of housework and child-rearing?
Could you give me a sense of how different your & your H's libido were? For example, he'd like to do it every night and you're more like once a month?
Also, maybe your drive is very much attached subconsciously to your H's behavior. Is he a good partner in other ways? Does it do his fair share of housework and child-rearing?
This is a bit tricky, because it hasn't been constant throughout our marriage. For example, there are a couple of years when kids were young that are kind of a blur of sleep exhaustion and I was also very "touched out."
Pre BD, I'd say I was more a once-a-week person and he preferred every other day.
Right now, we're intimate over 50% of the days. Oddly, I find that I miss it of we go more than a day in between. I didn't used to.
H is a great partner in other ways.
I do wonder if some of the distancer-pursuer dynamic got mixed up in this. Our early marriage was dominated by his family, and I didn't maintain my precious friends much. This is a new idea for me, but since so much time has passed, I don't know if my memory is accurate enough to really analyze this angle.
Andrew and EDF, thank you so much for taking time to post!
This is a very busy week, so it might be a day or two before I have time to respond to them in more detail, but I appreciate your contributions.
Pre BD, I'd say I was more a once-a-week person and he preferred every other day.
I'm glad I asked because this seems like a fairly small difference, in my book. Definitely not anything ***I*** would walk out of a good marriage for. I'm not saying you don't work on that difference, but come on!!! There are guys in this forum (myself included) who would contemplate a lot worse, just for the sake of keeping the marriage together for the kids.
I think your H is being ridiculously selfish for even contemplating walking away from your M for that small of a difference. I mean, if you're 25 and single? Fine, do whatever your penis tells you. But with kids still at home, you're gonna walk away because you only get laid once a week instead of every day? I'm sorry. Sick of parents being so self-centered.