It's been quite some time since I have posted on here. It's the eve of an appointment that's going to change my life forever.
Looking back on the last 10 years of my life, and failed marriage, I've come to many realizations. For 10 years she was my everything - and my best friend. I realize that at times I wasn't the best husband and looking back I see what I could have changed. But also, looking back, I see that the blame truly doesn't lie with me. I never knew of my wife's history (childhood abuse - those who are familiar with my story know her past well) until after she mentioned divorce. To hold that in for 10 years and not tell me is beyond tragic.
I've come to the conclusion - due to her past and issues - that she wasn't cut out for married life and the trials and tests that go along with it. I just never knew of any of it until too late. I've also come to the realization that had I known back in the beginning I still would have married her. I also know that things would be much different now. That in itself taught me the valuable lesson - to always be upfront and never hide what might be self-thought as a skeleton...it wasn't her fault.
Recently, I was contacted by one of her inner circle down in Florida. This family friend of hers (who I will call H)is aware of our situation and I guess had had enough and wanted to tell me a few things. One of the biggest kicks in the gut was what she told me - that the only reason my son (and subsequently my daughter) was born was to keep from being deployed. As ya'll in the know are aware, my W's sister and I don't exactly see eye to eye. This family friend also told me of how from the beginning of our dating that she was in my W's ear against me (she was present during much of this). Some of the things the SIL said were horrible but untrue. Now, the SIL and my W are living it up - it almost seems as if they are trying to recapture their younger days or something equally as absurd. H told me that the first few years my W really did love me, but As time passed, her demons took hold. I know its a she said/she said kind of thing, but what I was told makes sense and rings true when thinking back.
I know there is no going back and repairing this marriage. I'm standing in front of the door marked 'single' and am too afraid to open it. I don't recognize my W any more. She is no longer the care-free, loving person that I knew and loved so much. Looking back, I see the evolution of her change over time but at the time I didn't recognize it. Oh well. A very painful lesson learned.
I'm at the point now where I can't stand the sight of her. Yet, at the same time, there is a part of me that still loves her. How silly is that? During our recent kid exchange, she wouldn't even look me in the eye. She is getting more than a little crazy concerning the kids and this upcoming battle will get hairy. Very hairy.
I've been in a hole for the past while. Each kick in the gut is getting harder to recover from. When I was able to bounce back to my feet quickly, I find myself struggling to get back to my knees. And the 'single' door is looming in front of me.
I've also come to the realization that I have hurt and pushed people away during all of this. I'm not proud of my actions and regret them. There are those on here that I turned away and if you read this, please know that I am truly sorry. I'm not making any excuses. I know I let things take control of me. I lost out on so many things during this god forsaken time I am in. I truly am sorry.
All I have now are my kids. I'm making/waiting on my W to tell them. I won't be part of destroying their happiness. Ugh. I hate my life now. I'm scared of what lies on the other side of that door. And I can't be a part time Dad who will only get to see my children as dictated by the courts.
She is going full throttle on divorce. There is evidence of either another OM, or the original is back in the picture. Oh well.
Maybe one day I'll find my feet again.
Hello Jeep74,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
You are the only one that can decide if there is no going back to try to repair your marriage. Put all of your time, effort and energy into being the best Jeep74 and Dad on the planet. Focusing on yourself and your kids in a positive way will help you find your feet again.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Hey Jeep, maybe that door says opportunity. Opportunity to be a better man. Opportunity to forgive yourself for past mistakes. Opportunity to search for your own meaning in life, on your terms. Opportunity to show your kids the right way to react to adversity. Single, Married, Divorced...those are just labels don't let them define you.
Thanks for the reply, Cristy!
I know the marriage is past saving at this point. There isn't any thing I can do but to put one foot in front of the other. During my abscence from this board, I discovered that for almost a year she was involved in an affair, although I'm not sure of when it crossed over to a PA. None of that concerns me anymore. That trust was so utterly destroyed that I am not sure it can ever be rebuilt. And I hate to say that it has turned me into a non-trusting person altogether. I'm left very bitter by the whole experience. I want to believe that here are good people out there, but how can one trust when the very person the swore their life to did such a thing? I have come across evidence of inappropriate contact (others) going back 5 years.
I may have been able to forgive the PA, but not when she got our kids involved. Not when she sent him pics of our kids. Not when she took pictures of her genitals and sent them to him while the kids were in the next room. That's unforgivable.
I don't even know who I am any more. Even after I discovered all of that I still clung to a sliver of hope. The fact that she was carrying on the A even while in MC and saying that we were working on us, that during this time there isn't anyone else, etc, has shaken me to my foundation. I used to believe in people, but not so much anymore.
I just got off the phone with her family friend, "H". Seems that all my W ever dated was the bad guy type. One would think that after all the abuse she suffered even into adulthood from that same type, that she wouldn't return to them. But she did in her A partner. H told me that I was different than all the others due to being a normal, nice guy. I was her knight. But over time, she missed that drama and created it on her own.
Where there once was love and compassion in my heart, there is nothing but hate. She broke my legs and I have even learned how to walk again. I'm not sure I even care to anymore, to be honest. Guess I'm a little jaded now.
Honest question for all those on here who have had their spouses cheat - can you really get over it and trust them again - to the point you did 100% before?
Thank you, melo.
Maybe you are right. I just don't know anymore. I'm contemplating reporting everything to her command. There is suspicion of inappropriate contact with enlisted, too. I'm also contemplating telling her family. I'm sick of her spinning things making me look like the bad guy and having them question my parenting.
Hello everyone.
I'd never thought I'd be the one to file. I really don't know how I feel about it, to be honest. I could forgive an EA, but I draw the line at PA. There isn't any need for anyone to kid themselves - by the time the A happens, the marriage is long gone. If it weren't, the A wouldn't have happened.
Anyway, after a lot of reflection, I feel as if this marriage was nothing but a fraud or sham. The reason I say this is because she never told - or even hinted at - me of the abuse she suffered going back to when she was in her early childhood. Something to which I was only made aware of after the BD. How can it be a true and honest marriage if things like that were never revealed? She said that I should have known how to do things - but one can't miss the cracks if one doesn't know they are there.
But even after all that, I'm still torn. For 10 years she was not only my best friend, but everything I thought was right. The sad thing is, I never knew so many things. As much as it bothers me to say this, I'm not quite so sure the level of hate is unrecoverable. I do know that it's because of the kids that I don't hit send and ruin her world. Maybe she needs that, but I know the kids don't. They still believe in her. I mean, she isn't a total bad mom, but she definitely doesn't deserve them.
I find it a struggle to just to smile. The coming fight is going to be something I'm not looking for. I don't want to destroy her, but I'm afraid that may happen. For some silly, stupid reason I still have a soft spot for her.
But I do know that she has created a non- trusting monster in me. I don't know how I got to this place, and I don't like it. I'm not sure That part will ever return. For 10years I hung onto what she said and believed it all. And now I look at how everything was a lie. It's almost like fraud was committed, and that is a most bothersome thing indeed.
I miss my wife.
As crazy as it sounds, I do. Today has not been an easy one. Had to go through some old pics for my kid's schools which brought back a lot of memories. Funny thing, I find myself wanting her again even after all she has done.
But at the same time I realize that our marriage is done and never will return in any form. Although I didn't set her bed on fire, she believes I did. As painful as this has been, what probably is the most painful of all is the feeling of our marriage being a fraud. I call it a fraud because it's like I never knew a whole side of my W, just what she wanted me to see and only told me of her abusive past after BD.
I had a conversation with a very, very close mutual friend who is in even more shock than I. She honestly feels that my W is two different people - one who shows what she thinks everyone wants to see (ie, the good, sweet little angel who does no wrong); and the one who has a much deeper and darker side. Interesting thing is, my W hasn't contacted her or responded to any messages since all of this went down. It's funny how people who she called close are starting to contact me over this.
Now I am facing a lot of anger and hatred from her. She said she can't stand being here around me. Ugh. My IC - who also saw us as a MC - feels that she is so angry because I caught her and found out her dark side. That seems to fit, too. Saying that I don't recognize her is an understatement. She has gone from being such a seemingly good person to this. She would rather go out with her sister than have the kids come down to see her on a Friday night, yet she complains about time with them.
So here I am. Filing was the hardest thing I have ever done. Even after the lies and betrayals, part still wants to believe that somewhere deep inside is the person I married. See, I hold the corner on crazy spouse. And she has destroyed my trust in people. Damn. I guess part of me will always love her, no matter how far she falls.
I would recommend consulting an attorney and strategizing your divorce to the fullest extent possible. If she's basically moved out and given you, for the most part, primary custody of the kids for the time being it might probably behoove you to delay filing for divorce as long as possible while more firmly establishing yourself as the primary parent more and more everyday.
You didn't give your wife a glowing report as a parent previous to being wayward so now that she's far far down the wayward path...she is no longer a suitable parent and the more custody of your children you can obtain the more you can shelter and protect them from her abuse and selfish entitled wayward thought process that will not likely ever go away (unless she turns and repents which doesn't sound likely).
You shouldn't wait for your wife to tell the children that "mommy and daddy just don't love each other anymore but both of you love them forever and forever and everything will be fine after the divorce". Instead they are old enough to be told the truth so they know it had nothing to do with them (kids are narcissists and always think it has something to do with something they did or didn't do). You should tell them by yourself and NOT with your wife by your side and you need to tell them first that you are divorcing because mom has had several other boyfriends during your marriage and that is not acceptable in marriage and wrong and even though you tried very hard to reconcile and forgive their mother, their mother never apologized or stopped dating other men so divorce is the only option. Apologize to them for not having told them the truth previously but that you also were ashamed and embarrassed about their mother's behavior. Own that you weren't perfect in the marriage either (though you didn't leave or cheat) and that they can count on you to tell them the 100% absolute truth (in an age appropriate manner) whenever they have questions or concerns. There will be no more lying in YOUR home.
Your wife (soon to be ex-wife) can get mad or bent all she wants but the truth is the truth and you have nothing to be ashamed of. It would be very typical for her to then try to spill any and all of your secrets that she knows in a vindictive effort to balance the blame or otherwise make you at fault and it's very important for you to reinforce your claim that you will, from here forward speak the truth and if what she says is true...you acknowledge it and own it while indicating that although you made mistakes and don't claim perfection....your errors and negligence do not excuse or justify their mothers continuing affairs and you remain willing to reconcile if she stops cheating (which she's not going to this far down the road but you need/want to model for your children the concepts of forgiveness AND appropriate boundaries wherein you don't have to maintain a relationship (or marriage) with someone that abuses you.
Google things like "telling children about the affair" or phrases like that for more direction and advice in articles writing by actual professionals. Even the wayward wife "Dr". Laura has a rant somewhere about why you need to tell the children the truth.
Jeep - you have been now nominated and appointed your children's sole responsible moral incorrupt parent. It's not what you wanted but it's now your lot. Fight carefully and strategically to protect them to the greatest extent possible from her morally bankrupt existence.
Thank you, Georgia Bulldogs! (Great school by the way - graduated from there!)
I had to go ahead and pull the trigger on filing for two reasons - that she was preparing to (her lawyer contacted mine) and also I had to do it before I lost jurisdiction ( only lasts for six months after she moved out of state) so it could be kept local. I haven't given her the paperwork as of yet, though.
One of the hardest things is that the children (ages 6 and 4) totally believe in her. Totally. She wasn't the best mom but I truthfully think she tries. I just think she is basing so much off of her childhood that she doesn't know how to be a great one. My lawyer says they call her type "Disney moms" because it seems she wants the fun with them but not the work (recall that she wants them in FL for three wknds a month and all breaks. For some reason she refused us coming to her new station in FL.
I've already established that I am the primary caregiver. I got notes/references from teachers/doctors/neighbors/coaches/etc stating that I'm the one who brings them to everything, attends all events, etc (she only attended 5 things in the 3 years she was here - and she claimed she didn't have time to come due to the hour's drive from her base, although she had time to screw him, right?). So that part has been proven. I will do my best to protect them and shelter them as best I can.
I have been talking with my IC on how/when to tell them. I think I will take them into a few sessions and go from there.
Good job Jeep. It's about you, and your children now, and your handling it great.
Thank you, melo.
Maybe you are right. I just don't know anymore. I'm contemplating reporting everything to her command. There is suspicion of inappropriate contact with enlisted, too. I'm also contemplating telling her family. I'm sick of her spinning things making me look like the bad guy and having them question my parenting.
I wouldn't tell her family unless they ask.
It does concern me that she sent pictures of your children to a man - is this the same one you describe when you said she seeks out the pattern from her childhood? I would be very protective of those children if that guy is abusive...
If you know she has an A with someone she's not supposed to fraternize with, as you supposed to report it?
Jeep I change my advice from my thread for you. Painter's is right. Georgia Bulldogs advice is very good.
You can't fix her. Take care of yourself and your children. Play your cards close to the vest and present it all to the judge. I would continue to gather evidence to support your case.
My wife had a EA/PA and I tried to put it behind me but it popped back into my mind when circumstance reminded me of it. I trusted her again but I never forget. Be strong
Thank you, painter!
I am beyond livid that she sent pics of our kids to him. Know what her excuse was? "it was about me, not them." I mean WTF??? She isn't in her right mind and she has so many issues. But yes, he fits that pattern of the stereotypical bad guy - has a criminal record and is a pill popping abuser.
I told her that he won't ever come around them. The unfortunate thing is, there isn't too much legally I can do unless I can prove safety concerns.
She isn't supposed to fraternize at all. And officers are held to a higher standard than enlisted. She was a director and head of the clinic when this happened. I still may do it after the divorce and child support has been established.
Mutatio,
I think as of now I won't say much unless directly asked. I am trying to gather evidence but it's getting much harder now, and given that she now lives in FL it makes it that much harder. II could have sworn I caught a glimpse of her bedroom door shutting she the kids were face timing her the other day. Damn.
I have tried to forget it, but her attitude and saying that there wasn't a dang thing that I could have done about and basically flaunting it in my face sticks in my mind. It's wasn't that she said oh look I'm screwing him, it's more like she wasn't concerned about getting caught.
She isn't supposed to fraternize at all. And officers are held to a higher standard than enlisted. She was a director and head of the clinic when this happened. I still may do it after the divorce and child support has been established.
If she is still in the military, can't you report her to her commander for the affair? They will investigate and order her to separate, and thus keep the OM away from you kids?
or they will cover her butt depending on her relationship with her command. I would gather info first and then do it.
Honest question for all those on here who have had their spouses cheat - can you really get over it and trust them again - to the point you did 100% before?
There will likely be a subjective answer to this question for each person in this sitch. For me, I realize the A was a side-effect of a marriage breakdown which I had a large part in. We both had our parts in destroying our M.
I've read about many couple who have survived infidelity but it's a lot of work involved.
Regardless, I'm not even at the point of considering whether I could forgive her or not. Honestly I'm not there; my first priority is to heal from the pain. I'm enslaved to this pain and it's like poison eating away at my core.
For healing I've used meditation and journeying.
Today I also heard about the Love or Healing letter:
THE HEALING LETTER
One of the ways people waste their minds is in the endless tape loops of negative emotions. You know, the worrying, arguing and complaining that keeps repeating in our heads like a broken record. Shakti Gawain explains that they really aren’t negative; we just make them negative by repressing them. She said "That’s a very dangerous thing to do... That’s how we get stuck. So I’m very much a believer in accepting all of your feelings... and that involves feeling your sadness, feeling your anger, feeling your grief, feeling your fear, all of those things... We do this in order to heal ourselves and get in touch with our selves."
Your journal is a safe place to express your feelings. Writing out your angry, sad, fearful or guilty feelings can give you a tremendous sense of relief, and lessen the urge to express these feelings with words and actions. I call this writing a healing letter. The first time I wrote a healing letter was when I attended John Gray’s Heart to Heart workshop in 1983. At the time, he called them "love letters" and later, in his books, "feeling letters." I didn't think it would help me much. But I was surprised, when I actually sat down and wrote it, at how much better I felt immediately. While it’s nice to be understood by someone else, and it is nice to be able to make a point in an argument with someone, a healing letter is only written for you. It releases the thoughts and feelings that you have stored in your heart, and lets you move on with your life. It is truly a gift you give yourself.
The beauty of healing letters is that they give you the opportunity to express everything you have been holding in your heart, what you have left unsaid. In our lives, there are many times when we leave things unsaid. Sometimes, it’s because we can't think of a good response at the time. At other times, it’s because the person left without giving us a chance to respond. And there are times we don’t think our opinion is worth speaking, or we don’t want to burden someone who already has enough on his or her mind. Whatever the reason, we often find that we have something to say to someone, but that person isn't available.
You can write healing letters to any person. It doesn't matter if they are dead, if they don't want to talk to you, or if you have lost touch with them, because you don’t send the letter to them. The person could be someone you've never met, like an ex-president or it could be a group, like the faceless bureaucracy of a government agency. The person might be someone who is part of your daily life, who you would never hurt by expressing your unbridled feelings. By writing out your feelings, you allow yourself to release them without dumping on the other person.
I suggest you write a healing letter whenever you’re angry. It will help you to release your anger and associated sadness, fear and remorse. Don't let these feelings build up inside of you. It reduces your ability to love with your whole heart and limits your capacity for joy! John Gray writes that "The purpose of a feeling letter is not to dump resentment, judgement, and criticism on your partner. It is not written to try to change them or correct them, nor to point out their inadequacies. If used in this way, it will not work. The feeling letter works only when it is written for you to feel more loving."
Now, you may have several people in mind to whom you want to write a healing letter. For example, a parent, sibling or spouse or ex-spouse who has hurt you. Or somebody like a friend who didn’t invite you to a party or didn’t show up at your party. If you’re having trouble feeling angry, just close your eyes and visualize the incident and relive it. The following explains the healing letter and makes writing one very easy.
In Chapter 3 of my book I explain that any inner work should begin with a tube of light. So it would be good to give a tube of light before writing a healing letter. Also, those who are under the care of a therapist or counselor should do it only with their consent and direction since healing letters can bring up a lot of strong emotions.
Begin the healing letter by writing out your anger and resentment. There’s no need to be polite, tactful or to hold back anything. LET IT ALL OUT. At some point you will notice a shift in feelings from rage to hurt. Now write down all your feelings of sadness. Then all you fears. If the feelings intensify it means that you are finally allowing yourself to experience them and you can let them go. But before we can let them go completely you have to take responsibility for your role in the situations that caused the anger, hurt and fear. So you express remorse. Step into the other person's shoes. How did you look to that person? Did you do or say anything that you regret? It is important now to say everything so you won't feel guilty in the future. Confess your shortcomings, and the things that you wish had turned out better. Finally, you close by expressing positive feelings of love, appreciation, respect, understanding, acceptance, caring and trust. Even if you don’t feel any love for that person, you can express gratitude because he or she has been a teacher in your life. You have learned a lot from this interaction. Take a few minutes to write about what you have learned. Think about how your life is different now that you have had this experience. Dr. Wayne Dyer speaks about the deep gratitude he has for his father who abandoned him because it forced him to become strong and self-reliant.
Write your feelings in a way that will help the other person understand how to support you. As in the dialogue game of softball, write "I felt hurt when you..." or "I would feel better if you..." instead of "you did such and such." It is best that you write out your letter straight through in one sitting so give yourself a good amount of time, about one hour, when you can sit down and write without interruption. When you are finished with the healing letter, it is essential that you write out a response. Just write what you would like the other person to say in reply to your letter, the apologies, forgiveness, understanding, support and love you need to hear. Write what you would like the other person to do to make amends. It doesn’t matter that he or she will never read it and probably wouldn’t make amends if they did. Just imagining it can help heal the pain. Use the following as a guide to organizing your feelings. Write out the lead-in phrases for each feeling and then complete the sentence. You can use all the lead-in phrases or just one over and over. Use the one or ones that helps you the most in expressing your feelings.
Dear ,
ANGER
I hate...I feel resentful...I feel exasperated...I feel offended...I feel bitter...I feel furious...I want...
SADNESS
It hurts me..I feel disappointed...I feel so sad...I feel unhappy...It’s so depressing...I wish...
FEAR
It’s so painful...I’m worried...I feel afraid...I need...
REMORSE
I apologize...I am so sorry...I feel embarrassed...I feel ashamed...I hope...I am willing...
LOVE, GRATITUDE, FORGIVENESS
I love...I am grateful...I realize...I would like...I forgive...
Love,
___________
THE RESPONSE LETTER
The response letter should include:
1. Apologies written in a way that makes you feel heard and understood.
2. Validating statements that express compassion for your feelings.
3. Loving statements that express praise, appreciation and acknowledgment of what you deserve.
4. Anything else you need to hear to feel better.
After writing your healing letter and response, it would be good to read them out loud with feeling. Imagine that the person is right there with you. Most people find this to be more healing than just writing because writing is a mental exercise, but speaking connects them with their heart.
After writing and reading your healing letter, you must decide what you are going to do with it. Even though you are not going to mail it, there are several options.
Some people like to keep their healing letters as part of their journal. If you want to keep your letter, you must decide where you are going to write it. You may want to write your letter as a journal entry. Or, you may want to use stationary to make it feel more like a real letter, and then staple or glue the letter inside your journal.
If you don't want to keep your letter, you have several options for releasing it.
You can leave your letter at a significant place. You can hide it under a rock on a tombstone. You can place it on a page in the Bible with a significant quote such as Matthew 5:44. Or you might take your letter to a special place that you shared with the person you wrote to. Just be aware that with this type of release, your letter is more likely to be discovered by another person.
You can throw the finished letter in the trash. This option doesn't feel right to me because the letter contains thoughts and feelings from you heart. It would be like throwing part of your self into a garbage pail.
You can bury your letter. This is more preferable. Your feelings in the letter no longer have any power over you; they’re dead. So the logical thing to do is bury the letter.
You can cast your letter into the sea. If you live near an ocean you can drive to the beach and walked out on a pier to send healing letters to the bottom of the ocean. If you don’t, use a stream or a lake.
You can burn your letter. This, I feel is the best option just as I feel cremation is the best method of releasing a body. I don’t have to worry that someone will find it and I can see it turn to ashes. This gives me a sense of resolution. I watch the letter burn, and see the smoke carry my thoughts and feelings to heaven. Just be careful when burning letters that you don't start a fire! You can use a fireplace or barbecue grill safely, but be cautious about using something as small as a ashtray.
Whatever you decide to do with your letters, I recommend that you make a ritual out of releasing them. After all, they contain your heartfelt feelings, which deserve the utmost respect. Spend a few minutes before you release your letters to relax and feel the feelings leaving your heart. Send them out with any sort of prayers you feel are appropriate. I recommend giving at least 15 minutes of Violet Flame while visualizing sparks of violet flame flying from your heart to the heart of the one you have forgiven.
Can you write a healing letter to yourself? Yes, you can have your inner child write one to your inner parent. The inner child can write out its anger, sadness and fear at being abandoned, but instead of the inner child writing remorse and love, the inner parent would do that in the response letter. I find it helpful to switch hands when I’m expressing my inner child. I’m right-handed so I use my left hand. The words and sentences are short and scribbled just like a child’s and this helps me get into the role of the inner child.
If she is still in the military, can't you report her to her commander for the affair? They will investigate and order her to separate, and thus keep the OM away from you kids?
Oh she is still in and sitting pretty. The thing is, as my lawyer put it, if I were to report her the best case scenario for her would be a demotion and reduction in pay, plus the shame - and the navy nursing community is very small.
However, given the fact that she was high ranking, and a director (ie, head of the clinic) and there was inappropriate contact in her office with a man not her husband who was a contractor that did work for her in her building (the OM) , her career will be sunk. Totally. Which means much much less in child support from her (keep in mind, I gave up a great career to move with her when we got married). And then there is the whole suspected fraternization with enlisted but I don't have solid proof but hearsay.
If it weren't for the kids, I would sink her ass. She is unfit for command and I fully believe that she should be booted. She had no concern for her career because she knows of the consequences.
As far as the OM, I talked to him once and told him if he ever came near my kids I'd break his legs.
or they will cover her butt depending on her relationship with her command. I would gather info first and then do it.
^This
I have given that a lot of thought. She was the golden child of some. But I have a plan for that. It will be kind of hard to deny and cover up she a picture of her performing oral will be sent to many higher ups. As my lawyer said, she was stupid to allow herself to be photographed. I also have some friends who could make life very interesting for her...
Don't act from emotion. Think it through, work the problem logically. This is high stakes chess where the kids are the goal. Your goal is to say checkmate. Friends actions will be pinned on you. Don't play pin the tail on the donkey. If your friends screw up your the donkey and she could get the kids. Work the problem, set the trap, lay the bait and wait patiently.
1gr8dad,
I'm right there with you. I first learned of the PA at the end of DEC. not sure I can ever truly forgive. I always said that a PA was the end all because PAs are such a blatant disrespect to their partner and the marriage. In all honesty, once that line is crossed there is no turning back. And, in all honesty, there is no way one cannot look at their cheating partner - even if said partner was fully "repentant" - without thinking of it, especially if pictures were taken.
But if a person can honestly say they can fully trust that person to the extent they did before, especially after the lies, deceit, etc, is uncovered, then either that person truly is strong enough to accept it may happen to again or or they are a true weakling. How does the old saying go, a leaopard never changes its spots...
Hi mutatio,
What I meant by friends, is that I have several high-ranking ones in the navy medical field who know of the situation but won't do anything unless I ask. See, I have enough evidence to fully sink her. There is no way she's could deny - she even admitted (via text) that she hacked my phone and sent some of my contacts to the OM because she thought I was "also messing around." The lawyer liked that one.
I'm not sure I can find any more info now that she is down there. Ugh. Honestly, I won't involve them. But I fully feel that she is unfit due to her actions and should not be in another director position.
If she loses her job would you have to pay alimony? Am I right that all you have is nuclear weapons to fight this war. Do you have anything on her that is less damning? During the divorce proceedings your lawyer could say agree to my terms or this will be made public?
No on the alimony part. By going to FL without us, she is effectively giving over primary custody and didn't even realize she did it. And then there is the whole mental side of things - hell, I even have a text from her saying that if she had to go back to FL without them (happened last month - when my son said he didn't want to go if I wasn't going)that she would have ended her life that night.
But yes, I have a nuclear option...
or they will cover her butt depending on her relationship with her command. I would gather info first and then do it.
Sounds like he's got that covered with his contacts.
But he should report to both the commander and the IG to ensure it doesn't fall through the cracks.
The CO, XO, CMC, etc. I have so many emails I could practically spam the command with her stuff. If I were to report, they'd get the whole nine yards - pics, emails, texts...
No on the alimony part. By going to FL without us, she is effectively giving over primary custody and didn't even realize she did it. And then there is the whole mental side of things - hell, I even have a text from her saying that if she had to go back to FL without them (happened last month - when my son said he didn't want to go if I wasn't going)that she would have ended her life that night.
But yes, I have a nuclear option...
That should be enough to get you primary custody, in most states her leaving like that would be viewed as "abandonment."
Sounds like your L has a good handle handle on the PA evidence. You need to figure out what you want: For her to be away from the OM, then you should expose and report to the command. You may take a hit to the pocketbook in the short run but it will break up the PA and may bring her back to you.
Or if you want to go forward with the D, then hold the info as a negotiating piece.
It seems like the divorce case is different then blowing up her career. Win divorce case with her employed and get control of the kids. I am not sure I would blow up her career if she is far away and out of you life. But keep the data for future use.
Thanks, CWOL!
I am not sure if they are still talking or laying low until both divorces happen. He is in SC and she in FL. The OMs W keeps me updated as much as she can. Seems as if he has others, too...
Oh my L had a field day with all her stuff. His assistant apparently didn't read the warning I put about the contents of the emails...seems as if she was rather shocked. 😂
Ugh, I can't unsee the pics...
I think for now the best bet may be to do as mutatio suggest and win and get ordered support. Then I will strike. 😈
Thanks, mutatio!
As I said above, your advice is solid - I may wait and win. If it weren't for the kids, I would have sunken her in every way possible. Her actions just purely disgust me. She said she has a clear conscience (exact words). But, I also know she isn't of the best mind, either...
Keep your eye on the prize, your kids. You get that and you got the world. I would let the divorce work it's self out and then pause. If you have the kids under your control it might not be smart to destroy their mothers life. If you do and she goes into a downward death spiral that would not benefit your children. I'm not saying what to do. What I'm suggesting is to please consider your children when you go down that road because you never know what will happen. What is your motivation for retribution? ego? justice?
Could her blowing up her life be enough justice?
Jeep please consider compassion for your wife after you have won the divorce. It would be good for you and your children. You reap what you sow. Love your children
Could you tell her you sent the info when you in fact did not?
She would be shaken to the core, and possibly stop the PA.
I'd do this after custody has been decided...
Damn mutatio, you are making wayyyy to much sense. I had thought this over and over and over. Everything is for my kids. As I said, if it weren't for them her stuff would have been plastered everywhere.
She has no conscience nor any sorrow for her actions. I would like to believe that her past issues created this monster, but that would be a whole different kettle of fish. She comes from a family of liars, and that's putting it so very nicely. Quite honestly, I'm not sure what to make of her. I'm catching her in more and more lies, too. Maybe she really is as imbalanced as her actions suggest, but if that's the case, then she needs to be removed from their lives at the worst or have some sort of supervision.
But, if her crap is just an act - like her suicidal thoughts, etc - and she is doing it for attention or whatever, then she needs to be out of their lives. Those morals/values are totally unacceptable. I'm not sure, but there are indications that she is doing a lot of it for attention. She is a master at playing the victim.
She shows no remorse and doesn't accept responsibility for her actions in any form. Nothing short of a literal kick in the ass will make her wake, and even then I'm not sure. There have been occasions (albeit few and far between) where I have been brutally honest about the kids, to which she almost recoils and shows cracks in whatever is surrounding her. That is why I feel that she needs to really have her eyes opened. She sees what she wants too. But she is being led by someone, and I have a feeling it's her sister.
Hi, Trumpet!
Calling that bluff won't work, I don't think. I'm not sure her and the OM are still in cahoots. Word spreads very fast in navy med (due to it being a fairly small group) and I'm sure that if I report it wouldnt be long before word got back to her. That's a tight group, and to go that route all ducks need to be in a row. I have everything I need, but I'm not sure I'll go there.
Hi Jeep. It's very clear you are very very hurt ( rightly so ) and I would advise caution until such time as a clear head can prevail
You have all the cards and you don't need to show any of them out of anger.
The kids are all important and that's the focus here. In 5 years time , Jeep could be madly in love with a new fantastic lady and W will be a bad memory OR W may be back home , either way Jeep wants to be able to look back on this time and know he acted as the best Jeep possible
If you NEED to show your cards to protect your kids then that's a different matter but act from the best you not an angry you
Positive thoughts. Rd
Just curious, are you interested in getting some of her mil retirement? If you sink her you may not be able to get that. If the M is over, you have to look at long term benefits now. Also, you are letting her win by you being so upset, and her having a clear mind. I would go after the retirement, that is the biggest win, and let her get promoted so your portion keeps getting larger by the year.
I agree with Mu, look to your children. If OM is a scum and you don't want you don't want him near them you have a good sanction.
If you are going to blow her career to what end? You will have a deeply resentful WW and after D she will not care. Lies to say her A started at a different point and you are just anot angry xH.
Who knows, I can't see any benefit in reporting at all, if you were to do this would it repair your R? I doubt it.
There is only one window for it and that is now.
What is best for your children?
V
Thank you, Vanilla, Ralph, and RD.
I realize that each of you are right. I won't report her - honestly I'm not sure I have it in me to ruin her career due to the kids. If we didn't have kids I'd cut my losses and sink her the fullest I can. Unfortunately, due to her mental condition, I'm not sure anything other than a "death knell" will get her to realize anything - in other words, I feel it's going to take a great loss open her eyes. And divorce isn't going to deliver that kind of blow. Remember that due to her past she is at her best running from problems. After all, she is famous for leaving relationships when changing duty stations.
Also I realize how easily she is led - especially by her sister. Remember that those two went through that hell of an abuse together. her sister defines the word narcissist. And, the sister was against us from the beginning. She controls my W like no other - when my W had a miscarriage she hadn't told anyone for a week or so but me, then one of our friends asked on FB about the pregnancy - I responded after getting her ok. Anyway, the sister catches wind and calls screaming at my W about how dare she not tell her first. And then there was the time the SIL told my W that their relationship means nothing - only because my W stood up to her once. Now they are best buds - going to concerts and all that shite... Oh, the SIL is also in the process of getting a divorce. Imagine that.
There are little murmurs starting about those two having a plan for the kids - and the influence is beginning to show. If that keeps up, I fear the nuclear option may be the only way to go.
Hi Jeep74. Only you know the situation real time and you have to make judgement calls based on that. Only advice that maybe needs repeating is ,
Act in haste and repent at leisure
You are sounding strong and I hope you have someone to bounce off when things happen that might prompt a reaction
Take care. Rd
Thanks, RD. unfortunately I don't have anyone to bounce things off of when shite gets crazy. Right now, I can't stand her. Period.
Honestly, I never thought I'd ever get to this point. I'm not even sure I'd ever entertain the thought of "us" again. Ugh. Oh well, it is what it is.
I'm gearing up for the fight of my life over the kids. She is being told so many things and spouting off so much about what she will do and what I can/can't do that its crazy. She truly believes that she holds are the cards. Boy will she be in for a surprise.
I've given everything so much thought. Even after all the terrible shite she's done, I can't destroy her. I'm doing what I can just to stay afloat and be strong for the kids. Honestly, sometimes I just wish that she'd just totally disappear from our lives - but the kids love her and I can't imagine hurting them.
Day by day, man, day by day.
Jeep, bounce it off of us!! You are so great with giving me inputs whenever I feel confused about how I should respond. Also, my DB Coach offered the idea of a 48 hour rule. When the WAS does or says something that makes you crazy, makes you want to throttle them even, stop... let it sit for 48 hours... feel free to come here and share with us, and then you will have a cooler head.
She is the one out of control, so show her that you are the grounded one. Even if she doesn't respect that now she certainly will when she begins to see the destruction she caused after the dust settles.
Thanks, Iwad.
It's supposed to get easier, not harder. Giving up is the hardest thing to do, yet it is the smartest.
I'm struggling just to keep my head above water, and with myself still being unemployed it makes it that much harder. I haven't given her the papers yet - I just can't bring myself to do it.
Maybe some of you can help me get a read on this - I am not so sure she isn't changing her tactics. She is a lot more careful now in her texts - I have learned to get all convos in text as per my lawyer. I think she is being coached on that end. But that isn't what's odd. She worked Friday and Saturday, so came up yesterday from FL yesterday. She wanted to take them to lunch like usual, but this time she asked if I wanted to go which hasn't happened in a long, long time. And we spent the day doing stuff around the house like cleaning and yard work. Also, she was a lot more friendly than normal, too. In all honesty, yesterday seemed like it was before BD. Ugh.
But - and there is always a but - she had asked me to get a box from the attic, which I did. Sitting on top of said box was a box of our wedding invitations, just out in the open. I didn't say a word about it and neither did she, but I didn't put it there in the open.
I know I shouldn't read into anything and maybe she is playing a cruel game with me.
Any way, she did her usual last night - let before my son fell asleep. It was very sad to hear him ask her why she had to go and why couldn't she stay. And once again, she failed to answer fully. But, what was different, was that she actually came back here when I got them up to get them ready for school (before 0600). That is the first time that ever happened. She is also in the area today but isn't spending it with me. Oh well.
I'm struggling with the fact that our relationship and marriage isn't coming back. I am so torn between loving and hating her - is it even possible to do that at the same time?
It's terrible to live with regrets...
I can't help but feel this whole thing is my fault and that if I had done something different that maybe we wouldn't be where we are now... I understand that my wife is most like beyond repair with her issues. Maybe if I had just been able to see what she was going through - after all, we were supposed to be together forever, right?
I'm not sure how much further I can fall. It seems like each time it gets harder and harder to stand. I'm still without work and my W is pushing divorce. Maybe its because she is trying to really hit me hard and doing what she can to make sure she gets the kids. If I don't get work soon, I'm not sure I can put up a fight legally for them. Ugh.
This weekend she comes to visit and accidentally reveals 3 new tattoos. She had one before we married but never mentioned that she wanted more. Ever. And now she has three more. What does all that mean? Is it kind of like her going wild?
I know there isn't saving this marriage anymore. I just don't know what to do anymore. I miss her. Having to go through information for my lawyer brings back so much stuff from memory.
Maybe, as my IC says, there really wasn't anything I could have done. Maybe she is just not wired for family life. So many things go through my head. I look at my kids and they believe. They believe that she is going to come back and we are going to be a family again. That hurts more than anything else.
Sorry if this post was weird. Maybe its just one of those days.
Jeep,
I live with those same thoughts constantly, but you need to remember: At least 50% of the fault is hers. Nothing is 100% yours.
Actually, if you are unemployed wouldn't it be to your advantage to file for D now, rather than after you get a job? Check with your L but your WW may be required to pay you child and spousal (if you have it in your state) support.
CWOL,
Thanks for responding! I'm not sure on that. My L said one of the first things the judge will ask is how will I be able to support myself. He is confident I can win primary custody (with joint visitation), but it may get costly.
Hey Jeep! Just catching up a bit in your sitch. Sorry to hear things are so tough at the moment.
Thank you for taking the time to reply on my own thread. I've posted you a reply on it. Sorry it's taken so long, I've had a very up and down week. And apologies in advance if what I've written isn't anything new.
Take care.
Thanks, Focus! I replied in your thread if you didn't catch it...
Yesterday was probably one of the most difficult in my life. Met with my L about the D and the paperwork my W sent. I guess this will get to be a nasty fight, which is something I truly do not want. Her paperwork had some truly out there and delusional requests, and actually some I agreed with. That's when the reality of it all hit me like the heat did when first stepping off the plane.
I realized, in the meeting, that even after all she has said and done that I still love her so very much. And that's what makes all of this so painful. I have given her every chance that I possibly could. A simple apology would have gone so far in this process - not saying that the D would have been averted, but who knows.
If she had only told me about her abusive past so long ago instead of waiting until after BD I could have taken a different approach to her and our marriage. As damaged as she is, I still would have stuck with her. Going through all our stuff and looking back I never even saw a hint of trouble. All of the pics show her - and us- as being a happy family. However, there are some where she was unaware that a pic was being taken and the look on her face -especially after knowing what I do now - almost seems disturbing and distant. Damn.
Maybe I should have paid more attention to things. It's almost as if she is two completely different people. When she puts on her uniform, she is all business. Yet, when she is in civvies, she is almost the complete opposite - somewhat timid and easily led. And when the two cross, it isn't pretty...she's had a complete breakdown a time or two after BD that was one of the most painful things for me to watch, yet she wouldn't even allow me close enough to just simply hold her.
I'm not so sure that this D process won't send her over the edge, which scares me quite a bit. I realize there isn't anything I can do - or possibly even could have before - to save this marriage. Some of my terms may seem harsh but it seems like I have no choice, as I am very concerned about the kids. I just don't know anymore.
Hi Jeep. Sorry your so down This is a tough time but you seem to be putting a lot of blame on your shoulders.
Your W has atleast an equal share in the breakdown and form what you've written , more. The situation is as it is and all Jeep can control is himself Use that control. Become the best Ieep possible and let the future unfold. None of us expected to be on this forum but it happened , anything is possible is the future so relax back from blaming yourself and do things in your life that you want to do
Your journey is far from over , Jeep will come through this and prosper whatever the outcome
Take care Brother , Rd
Thank you, RD.
I guess I do put a lot of the blame on my shoulders. While I realize that her issues in some part created - or heck, maybe even totally - this monster, there is some part of me that will always ask what I could have done.
It is my hope that she will accept my terms and changes, but I fear this is headed to court. Honestly, part of me feels guilty about this hell that is about to be unleashed. I am having a hard time removing personal feelings and treating this as a business type experience. And there is still the hurt and shock that she is running full steam ahead into D.
I'm trying to keep my head up but all I see are clouds. I wish this nightmare would go away! But, it won't. I'm all about my kids and always have been.
What is this freakin hold she still has on me?
Just finished reading some old stuff. I miss talking with some old friends on here...y'all helped me more than you will ever know.
It took me a bit, but I am slowly coming to the realization that the past 10 years have pretty much been a lie. That is the hardest thing to swallow. Maybe she was truthful (to an extent) in the beginning, but as this unfolded more and more lies came out, and some that she doesn't even know that I'm aware of. It's like I married someone who completely changed so much - or maybe she changed who she really was during our dating and early marriage that her true colors started showing. At any rate, it's done and in the past.
All I can do now is look forward. Maybe I will restart my journaling. I have a few models that need finishing. The sunshine is there, I just need a bit.
Ever have a what if? Lately those have been coming frequently - some about my W and some not. I have also come to realize that that this situation has made me a little crazy and pushed away some great people and and awesome one in particular. Sigh. Lessons learned, I guess.
Hang in there brother. This s ucks, and takes time. My STBXW still has that hold too even though i keep telling myself i'm detached, but really i'm not. I just keep working at it.
Good morning Jeep,
I know what you mean about the what if's. Those thoughts have plagued me since the BD.
I know they are not productive thoughts as they trap us in the past. My goal is to acknowledge the thought and let it pass promptly as I get really down if I let it play out in my mind to long.
Hang in there my friend you have come a long ways and there is still many great things in store for you if you stay on a good path looking towards a bright future.
Thank you GWH and Sadhub!
This grieving process is really kicking my ass! Where there was anger and hate, now there is nothing but sorrow and love. To paraphrase an old Mash episode where Hawkeye was talking with an old flame - she broke my legs and I hated her, passionately. But as time passed I got over the hate but not the love...
And that's where I am. I am unable to separate personal feelings from the divorce process and treating it like a business like some on here suggested at one time. And I feel so guilty for filing that it's eating me up like nothing before. I'm glad no one is here to see me now. I made the mistake of looking at old stuff again...
I'm no where near as strong as I thought I was months ago. I guess it's the finality of it all. I'm having way to many dreams about family now. I'm not sure I have the strength in me anymore.
I think I will write her THE letter. I want her to know that the door is still open no matter what had happened. I realize that we both had made mistakes. Maybe she won't even read it at all. I guess something like that couldn't hurt, could it? I keep hoping that maybe she will come around. I guess it's a pipe dream, though. We were supposed to grow old together, you know? Ugh.
Hi Jeep. Write the letter then burn it. You not giving yourself time to let your feelings settle Firstly you do not want this version of your W back. , you deserve much better.
You both made mistakes but only one of you acted in a horrible manner and disrespected the other.
Only you know if you can truly get past what W has done but you are not in a place to decide that yet.
Give yourself time to accept what's happenedc and let your feelings settle
Please do not send the letter , it will achieve nothing but show W you will accept anything she does
Just my humble opinion.
Take care. RD
Hi jeep, I have to agree with rd.
The W has to come from the fog first and realize for herself the mistakes that you both own.
You are owning yours and then some if I am understanding correctly. And I say this because I relate very much so to that. We can only own what we own and work to be better based on our own self reflection.
Hang in there and get it out, for your own therapeutic reasons, but do not share with her. No good will come of it until she is in the right place. And if that ever happens, she will let you know.
All of this IMHO.
Thank you RD and SadHub,
I guess that the letter isn't such a good idea. Thanks for the input on that. I am really struggling now.
I feel so guilty about my terms in my paperwork concerning the kids. I believe that they should see their mom and offered what I thought was a fair arrangement. But the thing that concerns me very much - even though I would like to think that she would her best for the kids - is that what happens if she snaps or falls into that pattern of dating questionable people. What do I do with that?
A friend told me that I have no reason to feel guilty but I'm not so sure. I just can't bring myself to go for her throat in the D process. I am just so torn. I guess I am still stuck on what I used to remember of her and our relationship.
Oh how I wish she would have been upfront with me before we got married. I just know that things would be different. I just don't get how someone who once said I was her world and love me more than life itself can turn into this.
And I still don't know how to separate personal feelings from the divorce. I can't bring myself to hurt her. Here is a stupid thought - for some reason I have it in my head that if I stand strong with my demands that it will drive her even more away. Does that happen? Could it be a true final nail? Or should I ease up in hopes that she will see it as being a good sign? Maybe I'm just dreaming. I'm not going for full custody - just primary physical with joint legal and fair visitation. I am very concerned about certain mindsets in her family, too, as they made it clear that they want me out of all lives, including my children.
Am I doing the right thing? I feel that the kids should see their mom. But I'm also worried...
More away? WTF do you want? Canada? No mate, time to stop thinking and mind reading, do what is right for you and your kids...
It's been a long time since I have posted or even logged in. Things are running way to fast for me now. By this time next week the papers will be signed and it will all be done.
I'm freaking out over the holidays. My kids are still so young and believe in Santa. And they still believe in us as a family. I can't imagine not going to bed with them and their excitement over Christmas Eve, or watching them wake up to see what's under the tree. I'm so scared that this will destroy their innocence and childhood.
You know, at least I can say I tried to make this work and save the marriage. I'm not saying the advice here was bad, in fact it was the opposite - there are some great and wonderful people here...maybe it's just that my situation was so unique that the things I tried and the advice I followed was counter-productive. Who knows.
But, as they say, all good things come to an end. I miss my wife and I know I'll live on without her as I must for my kids sake. Everything is about them. Everything. I try to speak well of her to them, and that's a hard thing to do given what transpired toward the end of our marriage. Sigh. Maybe one day.
One thing I realized is that I lost who I am. I don't even know that anymore. I'm just trying to be the best Dad I can be. That's all I can do. She took the best part of me and crushed it under her heel. And I've done many things that I regret since Christmas and used some very nice people for some not-so-nice things. It's almost like in some way I've become what I resented. I don't even know who I am anymore. Hope? Funny thing about that, I still am holding onto hope that this marriage will somehow restart. I told her that maybe we should stop this and try again and the response was "why drag out the inevitable? It will only hurt the children in the long run."
Its funny how hopes and dreams are smashed just like a bug on a windshield. I was blindsided at her request for a divorce. I was blindsided of the affair and the revealing of her childhood abuse. And for over a year I tried to practice the advice from this board - oh I managed to detach just fine and such and only have contact concerning the kids - something which she was more than fine with.
She was my best friend and truly the love of my life. And in some form she still is and always will be. I miss her more than I ever thought possible. I never wanted divorce, even after finding out about the affair. I hate all the reminders that pop up about the past. I hate FB and its reminders when old pics/posts pop up. Most of all, I hate myself for destroying this marriage. Looking back, I fully realize my mistakes in the marriage. I take the blame for my part. It's just that I never knew of her abuse and all she has suffered until after she said its over. Looking back, with that info in mind, there are so many things that I could have done differently. And that's a cross I have to bear and it weighs oh so heavily on my soul.
There have been some great people whom I have met, and re-met so to speak. I've been asked out quite a few times and turned them all down or used them very unfavorably. I hate myself for that, too. Maybe another time or place, but not in the future I see. The idea of even getting back into the dating world almost turns my stomach. I can't even fathom that, nor do I care for another relationship. Will that change in time? Who knows, but not now. There is a lot of bitterness and my trust in others has so utterly been destroyed that I may not ever recover from it.
So here I am. On the eve of the final crushing of my dreams and life as I know it. Just want to be the best Dad I can in such a f'd up world.
You are not alone buddy...
Stay strong...
It's been a long time, my friends. Some of you remember my situation so I won't rehash it. Custody is all done and done as is everything else. Although she is raising holy hell about being taken to the cleaners. Oh well, she made her bed.
But at the same time, part of me will always love her. I know, crazy right? As bad as everything that went down and continued to trickle out months after, part of me still does. I only see her at exchanges...sometimes there is a flash of her old self and we get along great, and sometimes she's from another world. I still mourn for the loss but in a much different way, now.
It's the children that I'm worried about. But I'm doing the best I can to minimize their damages and give them the best life that I possibly can. Their mom only sees them every other weekend, and only on Saturday and part of Sunday. Sigh.
It's the children that I'm worried about. But I'm doing the best I can to minimize their damages and give them the best life that I possibly can. Their mom only sees them every other weekend, and only on Saturday and part of Sunday. Sigh.
Jeep74,
Thanks for the update. Why do your children see so little of her?
As for me, I decided to take a sabbatical in everything but being the best Dad I can. I was talking to the most amazing woman, but I need to get myself straight first because it isn't fair to her.
And then there is the monkey wrench. Some will remember the discussions on Harley Quinn. Well, that door somehow flung open again. So I guess this part of my story needs to be filled in, too.
Not sure where to start, so I guess the beginning is best. Back in 2006 I met what has to be one of the most awesome women that has ever crossed my path. I'll call her Harley Quinn - due to her penchant for costumes and a certain one she wore for me...but that's another story.
In early-2006, I "met" Harley through a friend. At the time she was stationed in Iraq with the Army. Over the course of almost a year we traded emails, phone calls, and video calls. I still have every single email she sent in a now little used account. At the time, Harley was 26. During our many conversations while she was deployed, I began to become attached to her, so to speak. Maybe developed feelings is a better term. She also expressed interest but never came out and said it, and I sort of got the feeling that maybe she was just young and carefree...at the time, I was 35. However, Harley was - and still is - fiercely loyal to whomever she is in a relationship with.
She returned to the States in October of that year. The weekend after she returned, the friend that introduced us threw a party where I finally got to see her face to face. We talked for hours and hit it off immensely - so well, in fact, that she wanted to go out the next night. I won't go into details of that date, but it was awesome and the night ended with, well the reason I call her Harley Quinn. So began our relationship.
Looking back, the way our relationship grew the way a real, honest one is supposed to. Even though we saw each other several times a week, we still talked on the phone/messaged/emailed just like when she was back in Iraq. My feelings for her grew and grew, to the point where I loved her and wanted to take it to the next level. But all the time, she never said how she felt - but yet the undertone was there. So time passed and I thought the carefree attitude was still there, but I was wrong...very wrong and paid a steep price for it. Harley had about a year left in the Army and started talking and asking my advice about what she should do - I even have the email about it...this will come into play in the present, and now that I go back and read it, it was so blatantly obvious that she really was wanting me to do was ask her to stay with me. But, that's jumping ahead of this so let me get back on track.
Fast forward to SEPT 2007. Still with Harley. I dropped hints but she always said later. So I was getting discouraged - I wanted more in this relationship, but I think part of me thought Harley wasn't wifey material. Maybe it was in my mind, back then, that getting my brains screwed out on the first date wasn't indicative of wife material...or maybe I just thought that Harley wasn't into the idea of marriage. After almost a year of exclusiveness, I wanted more and thought of marriage but was afraid to ask. I'm not sure what led to what happened next.
One day on my lunch hour, I was in a bookstore where I was approached by this gorgeous woman. We talked for a bit and she asked if I wanted to get drinks sometime. At that time, Harley was out of town on TAD so I said sure. This was the first and only time I have ever been unfaithful to anyone...Ever and never have since.
So drinks led to dinner. And it kind of roller coasted from there. This woman was really into me. One night we got drinks at a local bar, when one of Harley's friends saw us. Well, you can imagine what happened. When she returned the next week, it was one of the worst things I have ever seen. Just plain awful. And that played on my mind for years. I ran into a friend of hers a couple of months after that, and she told me Harley had re-upped to get away. Ugh.
The new woman, my well-documented ex, and I kept dating. In 2008 we were married. But my thoughts never ever really left Harley...I put her away in a little box on the shelf and really only opened it on certain dates and such.
Fast forward to 2011. I get an invite on LinkedIn from Harley. So I accepted. But the conversations weren't there. Over the course of the years, I sent messages but she'd never answer. However, after each job change/update, she would send a congratulations message and nothing else.
At the time, I thought I had a good marriage. But still, Harley would sneak in. As ya'll know, this year my wife and I divorced. We have two beautiful kids, too.
Fast forward to SEPT 2016. I get a new job and update my LinkedIn. Also get a congrats message from Harley. I decided to message her on FB. It took several weeks before she replied - and that was after several messages from me. At first she was very short, but opened up. It led to me giving her my number and her calling - that was the first time in almost 10 years that I heard her voice. We talked for about an hour. She now lives in California and I am in Georgia. Emails/messages/calls and eventually facetime followed and I must say, the conversation flowed as if we never stopped talking. Old memories were opening up. She ended by saying "you never know what the new year will bring." She was always kinda cryptic like that.
A few weeks ago, I sent her a rather lengthy email - one expressing regret and hope. A week passed and she never replied. A couple of weeks later or I got a letter in the mail, well rather a letter in a letter. In the envelope was a note, and an old letter postmarked 2008 - one of those return to sender types - apparently it was sent after I moved back then. The note said "I'm not sure." That's all it said. The letter, however, was a different story. In it was so much pain and so much heartbreak. I never have read that much emotion in a letter - all seven pages of it. And I read it over and over that night. There appeared to be tear stains on it. Also, in the old letter were two tickets that were dated SEPT 2007. In the letter she had told me she saved up for a long time to purchase the tickets. It seemed that she wanted to have that serious talk about us - and that she wanted to get married and maybe she was even going to ask me. I was floored reading that. I never knew. Never. Never had an inkling that she loved me. I must admit, it tore me apart reading that. You see, even though I felt that Harley wasn't wanting something serious at the time, she was the perfect girl for me. I just never knew.
So I tried to call. No answer but left a message. Same thing the next day. That night I get a rather lengthy email stating that my email (the one stating regret and hope) shook her and brought up the feelings of the betrayal. Said that she wanted to give it a go but that betrayal was too much. Said that she wanted to keep talking. I also have looked at her FB page over the years. She has a son, who looks to be almost 10. In the email, she said I have someone I want you to meet one day. And left it at that.
So here I am. With a heart that's broken in more ways than one. The woman that should have been was right there all along...I just never knew. I was that close. That close.
Oh, I forgot - in that email, Harley told me she had looked at my FB over the years. Said that she never married, either, and that she didn't want to go through that again. I do miss her, to be honest. But 10 years is a long time. Very long.
So here I am. With thoughts about this new one whom I been talking to (for a second go around) and then the monkey wrench comes in. It's not fair to the new one. Shite, its not fair to anyone.
Thanks for the update. Why do your children see so little of her?
Because that was her agreed-upon settlement in mediation. She didn't fight it and we didn't go to court. She would have lost big time - even her military career...
Damn, my man, that's a heart breaking story. I don't think your M ever had a chance because you loved Harley all along. Yours is a great cautionary tale for people to NEVER CHEAT ON YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER. Look what it cost you? Oh well, that ship has sailed and I believe you have given your pound of flesh over this. Hopefully you're a Godly man and have asked the big guy for forgiveness and help. He's very forgiving and amazingly helpful.
If it helps you share speak from the heart to Harley about what you have learned from all this and how you've grown. I think she wants to be with you or she would have stayed no contact. Advice? You've been through enough. Offer your heart, love, and LOYALTY to Harley and if you're lucky enough to win her heart for a second time then spend the rest of your life earning that and thank the man upstairs for forgiving you and doing you a solid. Good luck with all of it. I sincerely mean that.
Thank you for the kind words, TxHubby!
I know it may seem odd, but I loved both. You see, I never thought Harley was into it - but my ex, well, she played a good game. But I grew to love her, too. Different than Harley, but I gave her everything that I had. At the time - and yes, still do to an extent - I did love Harley, but I put her in a box and up on a shelf and took it down on occasion.
Maybe it wouldn't have worked, but I disagree - I fought hard for my marriage. I genuinely believed in my ex and what we had. Maybe I was fooling myself on some ends, though. But it is what it is.
That's what is so great - yet so bad - about hindsight. It's always 20/20. Always. Maybe our marriage didn't start on the right foot, but it grew. And yes, Harley always loomed in the background.
Oh, and TxHubby...
In that email I sent, I expressed the regret of how things went down and hope that we could talk and all again. That resulted in the letter and subsequent email. However, I did get a quick email yesterday saying we will talk soon - along with a pic of her and her son on this past Halloween.
Me and the big guy have had quite a few talks...
If her son is about 10, and you were with her until at least late 2007 (nine years ago) . . .
That's the kicker. From the recent pic she sent yesterday, he does appear to be that age now. He could be younger, could be 8, 9, or so - I'm not the best judge of kids ages, although he looks a little older than my oldest.
I'm afraid to ask for what I may find, either way. I do know she is very independent and at the time was climbing the ranks through the Army. She has always been one to do things on her own, too.
But that's not a conversation over email. I'll wait until either face to face or over the phone. Maybe that's why she kept "tabs" on me, so to speak. Will find out soon enough, I suppose.
So I go home for lunch and get a call from no other than Harley herself. Surprised the hell out of me because our talks are generally at night.
We must have talked for almost an hour. Several times during the conversation she asked about the weekends I have the kids and more specifically what I was doing around New Year's. She ended the conversation with "you never know what the new year will bring." For as tough as she is, she has such a sing-song voice. Damn, she is one beautiful woman.
Excuse the talking about this. I always try to temper things and I really need to get my head sorted out. I thought I had her back in that box again and then she calls out of the blue. Ugh. 10 years and 3K miles is a long way.
You know, I'm not sure what I should do about Harley. On one hand, there are a lot of unanswered questions...but on the other, it may be best just to keep that box closed.
Sure, I'd love to maybe get back to where we were, but that was back then. I can't think what-ifs. I did that enough when I was in the hell of separation and divorce. But yet, part of me does that for some absurd reason. I know better.
And then there are my children. I'm not going to bring anyone around them for quite some time. In Harley's case, that isn't an issue. Ah, but that monkey wrench. Living in what if land for a minute...let's say for some reason she does come, then what? If she did that then that would be a total expectation on her part because that would be big. BIG.
Not sure what to do.
Re "You never know what the New Year will bring" -- I think you need to spend some time between now and then preparing for at least the possibility that she's coming to introduce your son to you.
Maybe you are right. Another good conversation and some lingering things were answered. If it is a trip, indications were that it would be alone.
Re "You never know what the New Year will bring" -- I think you need to spend some time between now and then preparing for at least the possibility that she's coming to introduce your son to you.
I want ya'll to know that I appreciate everyone allowing me to talk about Harley Quinn...I know it isn't part of my situation with the ex - and really has nothing to do with DB...well, it does show a model of what not to do in a relationship, I guess.
Now it seems as if things are happening at a rate I may/may not be ready for, but its time that some decisions are to be made. So I guess we will know soon enough.
On an unrelated note - (some will get this and some won't) I had a conversation with a "friend" about pursuing/non pursuing - its a two-way street. Maybe that's why coms hasn't been there as much. I'm available to discuss and easy enough to find.
Maybe this will be the final, final update. On the marriage side, its done and done. The ex-wife is complaining of being taken to the cleaners...on the flip side, due to us moving around my jobs never amounted to more than 1 - 2 year stints, even though they were in my field, I had to basically start over each time. Which sucked, really...because now I am at the lower end of things and am not sure if I can even make the house payments and all...hence the support and all. Oh well, was I wrong to get what I deserved?
So for me, I'm trying to keep to my sabbatical. Not sure I want or need anything anymore, with one exception.
Remember the amazing woman I talked of? Well, I guess I was wrong. Coms can't be a one way street, can it? After all, if coms are only initiated by one party then that doesn't say much for the interest level, does it? Too bad.
As they say, life is too short and we aren't getting any younger. And then there is Harley Quinn. Not sure what will end up with that one. Although some questions have been answered there are still a few that remain. Guess we will see, eh? If one were to believe in the universe and signs, then things sure are pointing that way. But me, I'm skeptical of such...the ex caused that mess.
We shall see, though.
Maybe this will be the final, final update. On the marriage side, its done and done. The ex-wife is complaining of being taken to the cleaners...on the flip side, due to us moving around my jobs never amounted to more than 1 - 2 year stints, even though they were in my field, I had to basically start over each time. Which sucked, really...because now I am at the lower end of things and am not sure if I can even make the house payments and all...hence the support and all. Oh well, was I wrong to get what I deserved?
So for me, I'm trying to keep to my sabbatical. Not sure I want or need anything anymore, with one exception.
Remember the amazing woman I talked of? Well, I guess I was wrong. Coms can't be a one way street, can it? After all, if coms are only initiated by one party then that doesn't say much for the interest level, does it? Too bad.
As they say, life is too short and we aren't getting any younger. And then there is Harley Quinn. Not sure what will end up with that one. Although some questions have been answered there are still a few that remain. Guess we will see, eh? If one were to believe in the universe and signs, then things sure are pointing that way. But me, I'm skeptical of such...the ex caused that mess.
We shall see, though.
It sounds like you're in good spirits. That's really the ultimate goal whether a marriage works or not. I'm glad you mentioned the universe and signs. Some people say God. It's all good. YES, the universe talks to us all the time. Most people ignore signs. Once I stopped ignoring them and follow the signs, the worm definitely turned in my favor. Take that approach with Harley. If it's meant to be then it will be. If your marriage was meant to be saved then it would have been. Don't sweat it if your future isn't crystal clear. That leaves the door open to great adventures. Keep your mind and heart open and just go with the flow. Good luck.
Hey TxHubby! Thanks for stopping by!
I'm in pretty good spirits and there are moments. The thing is, she totally destroyed the part of me that really cares about that anymore...kind of destroyed who I was. Oh well, maybe it will come back, maybe not. I'm almost fine with the way I am now...most of my time I spend with the kids and don't really have time, or the inclination, for anything else.
Which reminds me of a conversation in the office today - one of the guys asked if we regretted getting married. I thought a long time about that one - back then when I thought things were fine, no I didn't at all. Now? To some extent I do, but I have two beautiful kids that are my world, so the hell I went through is worth it because of them.
Funny thing, sometimes when we talk its like the old days - like back when we were dating. And sometimes its like pulling teeth. I had come to the conclusion that the ex wasn't cut out for marriage or being a full-time mom. I don't hate her...not in the least. I'm more disappointed in her and her behavior. Sure, there is some anger at not being told ahead of time about the abuse, but it is what it is. Would I have still married her if she revealed that? Possibly.
Now, I'm in a place where I am struggling, but its a different sort. I have to figure out life after divorce. I have to figure out whats the best path toward it and giving the kids the best I can. That's my sole focus. Nothing else.
Do I want anything in the way of relationships? Not even sure, not going to lie. The woman who I was talking to made it clear that there is no interest from her end other than talking, so there is that. As far as Harley is concerned, that honestly scares me. The universe and signs opened that door for some reason, I just have to figure out what it is. I'm nervous about the visit and what it brings, no - make that scared.
People say that exes are that for a reason and there is no going back. Some are success stories and some are not. Some are scared to try again. I can honestly say that with Harley, we made each other better in so many ways. But that was so long ago. Even if we did, it would be totally starting over. Just not sure how much gas I have in the tank. And I'm not sure if this whole thing with Harley and thinking about her is a diversion from the pain of the divorce. I don't think so...after all, she contacted me after my last job change/update.
[quote=TxHubby
It sounds like you're in good spirits. That's really the ultimate goal whether a marriage works or not. I'm glad you mentioned the universe and signs. Some people say God. It's all good. YES, the universe talks to us all the time. Most people ignore signs. Once I stopped ignoring them and follow the signs, the worm definitely turned in my favor. Take that approach with Harley. If it's meant to be then it will be. If your marriage was meant to be saved then it would have been. Don't sweat it if your future isn't crystal clear. That leaves the door open to great adventures. Keep your mind and heart open and just go with the flow. Good luck. [/quote]
I'm glad you mentioned the universe and signs. Some people say God. It's all good. YES, the universe talks to us all the time. Most people ignore signs. Once I stopped ignoring them and follow the signs, the worm definitely turned in my favor.
Signs.
Have been thinking about that for a bit since you mentioned it. You're absolutely right, most of us ignore signs. However, maybe its a little more involved than just ignoring. Maybe, its the inexperience, too. Or not knowing how to see them. And maybe its just going with the gut feeling. Or maybe ignoring and hoping that the gut feeling is wrong.
Looking back, all the little things that didn't add up about my ex-wife...all the flags/signs, some of which I ignored and some of which I didn't see until it was too late. I can remember back when we were dating and how she reacted to certain situations and thinking that was odd, but just chalking it up to her idiosyncrasies. Little did I know - or realize - that it was all tied to her abuse. But the signs were there, and I think the question is why didn't I see them or pay attention?
Take Harley for instance. A perfect example of missing signs. They were there, but for some reason I couldn't see how she felt...now I can, but I couldn't back then. A good example is the talk we had about if she should re-up or not. I can remember that day as if it were yesterday - it was rainy and we had the windows open and were watching a move when she brought up the subject - out of the blue. At the time, I didn't put two and two together about her wanting me to ask her to stay. She repeatedly asked what I thought about her re-upping and things like what I'd do or we'd do if she didn't. The signs were all over that conversation. I ended up telling her to do what she thought best. I didn't say stay, but I wanted to. And now I know that's what she so desperately wanted me to say. Sigh. Now I'm being presented with new - and more complex - signs once again.
So you see, signs are always there -
IF one chooses to look or believe. But it also isn't as easy as that. I think that part of being in tune with the universe and signs and being able to see them also means that one has to be more in tune with their own self. Maybe that's why I missed a lot back then. I still miss them, but I am getting more in-tune with what's being shown...although at this stage it may be a little too late.
Here's one for the sign gurus. As we know, signs come in many, many different forms - from what's said/not said to dreams to seeing things. Back when we were dating, Harley put a San Fransisco 49er sticker on my car as a joke...over this past week, I have seen that same sticker on a car four, maybe five times now. Sign or coincidence?
I love these kinds of discussions...
Here's one for the sign gurus. As we know, signs come in many, many different forms - from what's said/not said to dreams to seeing things. Back when we were dating, Harley put a San Fransisco 49er sticker on my car as a joke...over this past week, I have seen that same sticker on a car four, maybe five times now. Sign or coincidence?
I love these kinds of discussions...
As I've gotten older and more experienced in life I firmly believe that there are no coincidences. It's always the universe talking to us. Chalking things up to coincidence is one of our ways of not listening.
Interesting take, Tx.
Funny that the things we brush off as coincidence. I can remember a few years ago when the ex-wife and I went over to a friends house after a Navy ball when we were stationed far off...and in the main bed room was a painting - same type that Harley had in her place back then. I remember thinking now that's a coincidence and brushed it off as just that.
I didn't mean to bring here up, but that was just an example. This is a very interesting topic. How do dreams fall into that for you?
That bedroom "coincidence" is just what I was talking about. Once you raise your level of awareness to things like this you'll be really surprised....and happy. You'll realize the universe (God) has you covered, always shows you the right path for your life, and all you have to do is open your mind and look for the signs. Just a few years ago I would have laughed in someone's face if they had said any of this to me. Then I opened my mind and had a "holy sh*t" moment and life has been awesome ever since. Never ignore the signs or dismiss "coincidences."
Interesting line of thinking, TxHubby, and thanks for stopping by!
I've always thought that things happen for a reason. I must admit, during the process of the divorce and the time leading up to it, I questioned the reasoning behind it all.
There have been some holy sh*t moments for me, too. Ever seen the Matrix? Kind of like that cat scene. Some just stick out like that. Like a license plate from a certain county several states away - for example, throughout the time leading up to the divorce when I'd drive to/from work (I had to travel 95 a bit) it would never fail that once a week or so I'd see a license plate from the county/state we were married in (which is 3 states away)...and for the life of me, I could never figure it out and thought that maybe since it was where we were married, its a sign of things turning out ok. Now, maybe I'm thinking its more like completing the circle and a sign of the end. Who knows.
I never do any reading into signs and stuff. Some I still chalk up to coincidence, but dang if you don't have me thinking more now.
That bedroom "coincidence" is just what I was talking about. Once you raise your level of awareness to things like this you'll be really surprised....and happy. You'll realize the universe (God) has you covered, always shows you the right path for your life, and all you have to do is open your mind and look for the signs. Just a few years ago I would have laughed in someone's face if they had said any of this to me. Then I opened my mind and had a "holy sh*t" moment and life has been awesome ever since. Never ignore the signs or dismiss "coincidences."
Minor update time.
Lately I've been reading the threads in this great forum. Lot of awesome help here! I want to once again give a shout out to all the help I've received during my crisis time.
There is absolutely nothing left of the old ex anymore. Nothing. Our relationship centers around the kids now. She has completely washed her hands on the marriage and anything to do with it. But now, I'm ok with that. Oh, she is friendly and there are flashes of how she used to be when we were dating, but that's it. I no longer trust anything she says, either. But she does have her moments.
My focus is solely on the kids and me. Have been working out much more and haven't been in this great of shape since my 30's. Did a recent 5k in 21 flat! Have also put on a good bit of muscle, too. I feel spectacular. I have really gotten back into my hobbies (well, as much as I can after the kids go to sleep, but that's ok). I'm not going out as much as I'd like, but that's ok, too. I'm in a great, great place now. And very happy. Well, as happy as one can be considering.
Now, for the newly oft-talked about Harley. Our coms have increased to fairly regularly now and she will be making a visit come December. Looks like the final questions will be answered. Am both nervous and scared about that, but I guess that's to be expected. She coordinated her time to coincide with the week that the kids will be at their moms...so she will be here for four days. I must say that I was shocked and surprised.
Honestly, I'm not sure what I want to come out of this. We had an in-depth discussion of my marriage/divorce and she knows it all. She never rubbed it in about my ex's infidelity - not once, instead it was more like a sorry you went through that type of thing.
Maybe she is coming to finally find out. If we pick up where we left off, then maybe that's what should have been all along. Oh, and she is coming alone - when I asked about the someone she wanted me to meet, she said that was for another time.
Besides the Gal, how much of DR have you been doing in terms of understanding how the marriage fell apart? You still seemed to blame a lot of the shortcomings on her. Leads to a lot of resentment.
Besides the Gal, how much of DR have you been doing in terms of understanding how the marriage fell apart? You still seemed to blame a lot of the shortcomings on her. Leads to a lot of resentment.
Hi 007 (had to do it :D) - thanks for stopping by!
I've done a good bit. I realize that we both contributed - after all, it takes two. However, with the circumstances in our situation are a fair bit different than normal, so-to-speak. With that said, she left out a huge chunk of her past...and knowing now how the abuse affected her and the way she handled things, I have no doubt that we wouldn't be in this place. Well, let me take that back a little - I'm not quite sure she was cut out for married life and all the tests/trials that go along with it. She has/had this image of how marriage should be based on her grandparent's marriage - which, by the way, was a fairytale (her grandmother told me that they made sure to portray one image in front of them - if you recall, their grandparents rescued them - because of what they had been through and that their "normal" marriage occurred behind closed doors. That led my ex to believe marriages are perfect and don't have problems.
It seems that she puts the men in her relationship life on a pedestal and compares them to her grandfather, who she thought was perfect (once again, what was shown in front of the kids was different than real life). Don't get me wrong, some of it was true but some was them putting their best foot forward and not a true representation of real life.
So, that's a major strike right off the bat. In a now deleted thread of mine, I spoke of how the ex admitted to leaving behind relationships as soon things didn't go her way.
And then there are the relationships tied to the abusive past. The bad boys who treated her like shite. She took in anyone and everyone out of what seems like desperation - the need to be "loved," or maybe given attention is a better word for it. In one of our sessions, my ex spoke of changing who she was to fit the current situation - which, I guess was a "survival" mechanism. My counselor - who was ours, too - talked of how women who were as abused as her (her case goes far, far beyond abuse and its a wonder that she functions as well as she does now) who would seek out those bad boys because they need that drama. I'm not a bad boy. But the guy she had the affair is and had a criminal record for - get this - abuse.
So you see, there was a lot left out that I had no idea happened. The ex had said that I should have known, but how could I? She doesn't accept her role in things - its all my fault, even the affair...according to her. And that is where the shortcomings you mentioned come into play.
Now, the question is that had I known ahead of time would I have still married her? That thought has popped in my head quite a bit. Given what I know now, and discovered recently just exactly what she has been doing over the years, I would say that if it weren't for the kids the answer is I don't know - however, I can't do hypotheticals because I have two wonderful children who are my entire world. The deck was stacked against me from the start - as I have said many times, had I known from the beginning things would be different.
She isn't a bad person but she has so many issues that not even she knows. Sure, I can accept my part but that comes with an asterisk due to her past.
Minor update time.
So, not much has been going on with me. There have been some questions about the marriage and how I feel about it and all.
Honestly, I'm in a good place now. It took me from early 2015 to within the past few months to get there. Some say the marriage was a sham - those close to me do - based on me not being told of her past. But me, I don't think so. I realize it was a product of her past. She still has so much stuff so closely guarded. Sigh. It is what it is.
I think I fully understand why things happened, now. Of course, I accept the blame in my part. Doesn't make it any easier, though. I can honestly say that I feel that she wasn't ready or cut out for it. And yes, there is some resentment and anger over how it went. That, I don't know how to get past.
Now, I'm doing my best to be a good Dad and shield them from her craziness.
There are times when we talk that it seems like nothing has happened and we were like years before. There are times when she reminds me so much of her old self. And there are times when I don't even know her.
Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if she were to revert to her old self and want to try again. I do think that before I'd even consider a second go-around she would have to undergo serious counseling. But, I think that's been a dead horse - she knows how to buck the system..after all, she's remained in the military for 20 years...
Would I? I don't know.
I think that this Christmas is going to be difficult. The ex is still holding firm to her selfish belief that it's good for the kids, even when they are starting to show signs of cracking. I am starting to dislike Christmas now.
Maybe things do happen for a reason, and I think that Harley Quinn came in at the right time for me. Not that I am making future plans, because I don't even know my own self. But it sure is nice to have someone excited enough who wants to call/message me on their own without having to be prompted in some form.
I don't know what I want from Harley. I'm not even sure where this will go. But this is all so reminiscent of when she was in Iraq - our messages/calls are back to that level again. I do think she understands my mindset - and my issues on trust. Harley has been my voice of reason over these past few months or so now, and has settled me in ways I haven't been in a long time.
And yes, the trip is definitely on and she is coming this month. I'm excited but scared at the same time. She won't be around the kids - I'm not ready for that and she is very understanding. Maybe this is what I really need, or maybe its just what I need right now. I've been upfront with her and yet she is still coming. Dang its nice to actually be thought of and wanted to be seen.
Had a great conversation with a co-worker today who is in the same boat as we are. I pointed her in this site's direction and she has lurked but may/may not join.
Listening to her talk brought up a lot of the memories of where I was a year ago, which is about where she is now. She's done a much better job of DBing than I did, but our situations are much, much different. However, hers is responding much like mine did - pulling away even more. I feel for her. She's a good soul.
I realize that my marriage has long been dead and it's in the rearview now. There is a reason the windshield is much bigger than the rearview mirror. It just took me forever to realize that. Although I'm going through another door now, my ex will always be with me, whether I want her to or not.
And that's one of the things that we have to realize. We also must realize that (unless we were a total a** or the like) even though it takes two, it isn't our fault. That took me the longest to learn. For the longest, I felt that it was my fault and really beat myself up...but it took an outside look at her and her past to make me see that it wasn't. I don't hold most of what she did against her, although I'm not sure if some things are totally unforgivable, either. I have a hard enough time with trust as it is, and I'm cursed with a memory that never forgets.
However, now, I'm excited about the possibilities that exist on the other side of the single door. Now, I'm not sure I want another relationship of that magnitude anymore - at least not yet anyway. But everybody needs someone, eh? That's why I'm so excited, yet nervous, about Harley coming to visit. December 17 is when I will meet her at the airport. Oh man that's coming fast. I feel like a freaking school kid...
A school kid. Yes. But at the same time I am happy being on my own. My kids and hobbies are all I need. That's what I tell myself, anyway. Maybe another door will open.
A door that leads to someone who is just excited and happy. To someone who calls/texts first thing in the morning. Those are some of the things I missed in the marriage. It's the simple things - the simple kiss goodnight.
But for now, I'm fine where I am. I may or may not allow that door to be opened. Everything happens in due time. Will Harley open that door? Honestly, I don't know.
I've asked myself what if the ex tries to open that door again? And I always come back to it taking so much from her to even turn the handle. That's almost akin to making one's way through a marked minefield in the middle of night with only the moonlight to guide one.
But, I've also realized that I'm ok. For the first time in a long time, I'm OK. And maybe that's all I need. Sure, it would be great to have that door open again. I'm much, much stronger now and ready for the next day. The sun will always rise, its up to us how we view the day.
Nighttime is the worst. That's when the demons come out. Somehow I always end up staring at the ceiling, and it's always the same. No matter if someone is there or not. The handoff Friday night was great - in many ways she was her old self...touching, laughing, joking, and just carrying on like things never happened. That is the worst for me. Because I know that things won't ever come back or return to what they were. Yet it's times like that when I really miss her.
People always told me that it's not good to reminisce, but a wise man once told me that it's ok and to have feelings. I do believe that door will always remain open for her, even though I know deep down that she will never walk through it. I've done a lot of soul searching recently and come to realize that maybe we were better friends than anything else. But part of me will always love her. Sigh. It is what it is. I don't hate her any more, but feel sorry for her in that her mind is plagued by more demons than I could count. She's a good person. She really is...it's just that she can't get past some things. That door will always be open.
I'm still finding myself. And maybe that's what Harley Quinn is doing. We had a good talk Saturday night and she came out and said that she's coming because she must - that there are some questions that have been unsanswered for so long and that she wants to see. No expectations. Just to see. And that she missed me. However, she won't stay at the house because she won't be part of where the ex was...which is fine, so I got us a B&B roughly an hour or so away in a place we have been many times. I'm not sure if I'll ever turn the corner on relationships again, and she understands. But we have this history that's undeniable. I guess I have to find out, too.
I think there will always be pain. Always. One can't ever truly get over bad things that happen in marriages, and deep-down we all know it. There is all be something that sets off a feeling, whether it be missing or heartache or hatred. Always. We can never forget of unthink things.
That's me. I'm in a great place. I don't talk to my ex but only about the kids. However, we spent all day together yesterday. I must say that she was so much like her old self that it wasn't funny. I also extended the branch and let her know the door was open - and once again she declined to walk through it.
I know, some are asking how I can do that with Harley Quinn sitting on my other shoulder. That's both easy and tough to answer. I'm not even sure how to go there but to say that maybe if the ex wanted to try again that I'd say yes. I would - IF and only IF she truly got the counseling she needs...and let it work as intended. Yes, I would. My ceiling has all sorts of texture. I lost count last night.
Undeniably there is still a lot in the tank for the ex. And always will be. I won't even begin to say otherwise. As I have said so many times, I don't hold a lot of things against her - at least not any more. She is a product of her childhood - and its almost like, to some extent, that she is trapped within those confines. I still think about all the things my IC (who was also our MC) said even after I stopped going - that it's like she is stuck in her child-like survival ways.
However, at the same time, I realize that there isn't anything I can do. Our divorce is final and the only thing she shows towards our relationship is trying to remain friends...which is something we have never had trouble doing. I'm getting that gut feeling again that she is seeing someone else. It is what it is. Can't look back, only forward. But we can reminisce.
Part of me struggles with Harley Quinn looming. I told her that I'm not sure that I have anything in the tank to give her. I'm also not sure of what led to this insane reattachment/attraction to her again - was it from the loneliness/pain of the divorce or was it something deeper? I find myself asking that. I don't want to hurt her once again. As I said in the Harley intro, I didn't give her the chance that she needed and deserved.
I won't compare Harley and my ex, but there really couldn't be two more polar opposites - and also alike in so many ways. It's odd what would send me to one or the other. Harley's in her mid 30s now and has mellowed quite a bit since we dated. Something that I'm glad to see. I don't know what to expect, heck, I don't know what to expect out of myself. But the fact that she is coming is large and I'm not sure of the implications of it all. Maybe its a good thing. Maybe its not.
An awesome person told that if two people love each other, then why stay apart. It's been 10 years since I told Harley Quinn that. That is a long time. It's funny the things one comes across when they look. A lot of things have flooded back about that our relationship...I told her that I regretted the way things ended and that I never gave her the chance she deserved. Maybe that's why she is coming.
Honestly, I don't know what to think. Part of me will always love my ex-wife...and whoever - if any - I am with will have to accept that she will always be part of me. No, its not like I'm pining or the like, but she was a very significant part of me and the mother to my children. I think its a good thing that Harley Q lives so far away, well for now, at least.
One bridge at a time.
It's funny how slowly a change happens without being noticed. Going back over the past few years since my daughter was born, I can clearly see that change in my ex. she showed me a recent pic of her and the kids together and even though she was posing, she looked like a deer caught in headlights. I worry about her. I really do.
I've come to realize more and more that I'm not blaming her for her actions. Sure, the blame rests squarely on her shoulders, but I do believe that she is a product of her environment. As another poster said, I do have a respect for her as a person and to some extent as a mom. I think that she tries, but she is only trying to the best of her ability. And that's a sad thing to watch.
I've also noticed gradual change in her as of late, too. She is shifting back to her behavior from the time in our early marriage and just before. And that is totally catching me off-guard. And, she has started emailing me more, too. Little things that she thinks I would like. Not a lot, but certainly a lot more than when there was basically no contact outside of the children. What this all means, I don't know. There was a time when I would have gotten my hopes up, but that is no longer. This weekend that branch and open door was ignored. Sigh. Oh well, it is what it is.
As I've said before, she will always be part of me and my day - whether I want her to or not. Some nights I count the textures in the ceiling. Some nights I sleep well. I can rest on the fact that at the time I did the best that I could, and I can't be faulted for that.
I can reminisce now without tears filling my eyes. But yes, it still hurts and I guess it always will. There really isn't forgetting of what happened - the pictures can't be unseen, the words can't be unread, and what's been said can't be unsaid. It will always be there and part of my life for the rest of the time that I am on this planet.
As has been said so many times, we have to learn to live with it. And that's what I've done. But those demons will always be there. And that is something I don't know how to get rid of.
Another thread got me to thinking about fairness. Is it fair to Harley Q? Am I being fair? Or am I serving a more selfish issue?
I'm curious. I'm curious as to what her intentions are - after all, she brought the plane tickets to come out. I'm just not what I have to offer.
Is it odd to miss two people?
My quick responses:
EX is temp checking, that is all. Ignore. She is broken. You cannot fix her.
I'd worry that you're tempting fate with Harley and the B&B. Too many temptations, if it was me. I'd keep her at arm's length. Want to see her, fine. But Your heart has a room for her, and opening that door all the way will really get your head moving in exorcist-like circles.
Time to heal, young Jedi. Your training is not yet complete.
Hi, Trumpet! Thanks for stopping by!
I know you are right. I know she's just temp checking...and I know that she knows how to push my buttons. I'm afraid it wouldn't be hard to pull those strings and lead me down to whatever rabbit hole there is. Still struggling with that, and guess I always will.
I get what you are saying about Harley. I really do. I love the exorcist part (a great movie, BTW). For some reason, I can't explain this insane attraction/attachment to her. I'm afraid that my head is already spinning at an unbelievable rate. I don't know what to expect out of this visit, but you're right. THe B&B needs to be cancelled and different rooms need to be reserved - that's easy enough because I didn't tell her that. What's easy - and yet maybe hard - is that she lives so far away. I find myself asking, what happens if it goes right? I mean, she brought her tickets and is coming - I'm just not sure of the implications of it all. I guess its just best to wait and see and led the universe's path go wherever.
What happens if it goes really sideways, in a ball of fire?
I love to make 15 chess moves before they happen, 'just in case'. And then I get upset/disappointed/angry when the plan doesn't work in the order I set in my mind.
Hidden/unspoken expectations.
Sounds like you're expecting them to go right. The key is to have NO expectations. How can you reduce your expectations, so that you don't put pressure on her OR yourself?
Pretend she's a buddy from long ago, and you're going out for a beer. Those kind of expectations. Of having some fun, of enjoying some company. Don't put the weight of your entire future on a night. Or the weight of your divorce on her. You might be doing that without realizing it... maybe not, but something to think about.
Hi Trumpet!
Yesterday/last night was a doozy. Started crazy and went to Harley blocking me on FB to a freaking 3 AM (EST) phone call from her that lasted roughly two hours. Good grief I am tired.
The latest would make a statue's head spin. It seems as if Harley Q had contacted my ex, about what I don't know. Its always nice to get a message from the ex saying "why the **** did Harley (she has another word for her) message me???"
So, I had to put out that fire. I still don't know what that was about but at least the divorce is final and that can't be used against me. Good grief. A brief history - the ex knows who Harley Q is and does not like her in the least bit...during some of the more insane fights we had, she'd always say "why don't you call Harley?" haha. But I digress.
My brother made me think and see things in a different way - he knew and thought highly of Harley Q when we were dating, but now he has some concerns. He asked me - why, after all this time and especially after what happened, would she jump at the chance - and even suggest it - to fly all the way out here and see you? I think he may be thinking of her having some issues. He may have a point, and I may tend to agree especially seeing as to how the ex was involved.
So, I ended up saying to her maybe we should just think about things for a bit. That didn't go well. And she blocked me from FB. Sigh. I thought that was the end of it until that early phone call. She explained a lot, including the message. Still not sure on that. She was apologetic and wanted to try over.
Hidden/unspoken expectations.
I think that phrase hits the nail squarely on the head
Or the weight of your divorce on her. You might be doing that without realizing it... maybe not, but something to think about.
I think I may have been doing that. An awesome friend suggested that I'm not ready for a relationship yet but I may be projecting onto her, because of the "need" for one. Maybe she is right - maybe I'm still caught up in the effects of the divorce that Harley Q is sort of a self-though life jacket.
This insane attachment/attraction to Harley Q really makes my head spin. I can not explain it...not in the least. Maybe I am really just projecting onto her and using her as a shield.
It's funny how time brings out the best memories and we tend to forget the bad things. A friend suggested that I overlooked her crazy tendencies and focused on the good stuff - and maybe that those crazy tendencies are what really drove me to my ex in the first place. I do remember at the time I didn't think that, but maybe deep down I did subconsciously.
Harley was like no other. Whereas my ex was more gentle and loving, Harley was tough as nails - but yet gentle at the same time. Don't get me wrong, she is downright beautiful has such a sing-song voice that could charm a cobra, and she hid her toughness very, very well - but it came out at times.
Unlike others in my life, Harley Q pushed me in ways no one else had - mentally, to better myself, physically (no, not sex wise but well maybe, but working out), etc. I remember the time we did a team mountain bike race. She was in phenomenal shape and really pushed me beyond my limits. Good times. Maybe part of me misses that, too. Sure, my ex pushed me to better myself, but she really didn't put all that much effort into it.
I'm really on the fence about cancelling the trip and just putting her back in her box where she belongs. After all, some boxes are meant to never be re-opened. Maybe it should really be treated as old friends having a beer. Maybe a beer with benefits
Sigh. She paid all that money for the tickets and wanted to come see me. I can't break her heart again. It's not me or who I am.
Wow ,your story has all the ingredients of a block buster movie.
Just mind that you do not rebreak HQ's hear again...
Aint that the truth. I've seen some crazy stuff but this takes the cake. I must be a drama magnet...the shite that happens to me has to be seen to be believed.
No, I don't plan on breaking Harley Q's heart again. So I called her on my lunch hour and we had a nice chat. So I told her to come. I'll figure out how to handle her. I'll do my best to keep her at arm's length. She has four days so we will see. And there are old friends to see if I can do it. She really wants to go to a local place for some swing dancing...she taught me how back then and I have really missed all the time I was married - if any of ya'll haven't learned then you don't know what you are missing!
It is a nice diversion from the exW's crap, though.
I read up on your HQ story.
Tough spot.
Everyone has already told you can't break her heart again.... that's a given....
But just know, keeping at arm's length can also be very heartbreaking too.
I know from experience.
I'll do my best to keep her at arm's length.
Jeep74,
Yeah right! You know you're going to be riding a Harley. Vroom vroom...
Everyone has already told you can't break her heart again.... that's a given....
But just know, keeping at arm's length can also be very heartbreaking too.
I know from experience.
Sigh. I know. I'm just not sure what to do. I can't outright say don't come, because that would be bad. Yet, I can't just make it a "friends" visit, either. So what do I do?
I'm dying laughing over here. You're most likely right on that end. Harley may make a visit in more ways than one.
Start a new thread please
Dude, there's only one thing to do; ditch the helmet and go for the ride of your life.
I'll do my best to keep her at arm's length.
Jeep74,
Yeah right! You know you're going to be riding a Harley. Vroom vroom...
So THAT's why he gave her that nickname!