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my wife requests space, deattached from me
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2499931#Post2499931I have had contact from my wife several times today. She just called to say that she would be out shopping. How strange?
Have to run the 180 rules.
Basically yesterday while watching TV, she asked me not to talk about the affair too much. I said fine as you are cutting contact. She said it wont solve our problem. Yes but a start I said. Said the same in session. How should I behave
Let her prove that she is cutting the contact.
And past that - she wants to be married to you.
This will be by actions not words.
She has has issues,
why are those YOUR fault?
Her issues are her alone.
When you make 180's they are for YOU,
not to win her back.
Are you depressed?
What can you DO to FIX that?
Lets make some GOALS for that!
She believes that even if she cuts contact that she would not feel she is connected to me. She is acting very strange. I even told at the session that to move forward she needs to stop contact. She said there were more underlying problems. I am not denying that but cutting contact is the start.
I am unhappy but not depressed on how I used to. Only thing I can do is to be mindful and live the moment. I also act as if my problems are gone so that I get the feeling.
What kind of goals? Get-A-Life goals?
What kind of goals? Get-A-Life goals?
If you have been depressed in the past then that could color everything else that happens in your marriage.
So there are steps that you can take to get rid
of depression and stress.
Most LBS's fall in this category but few DO anything
to try to fix themselves.
A quick google came up with some things.
Any of this sound familiar?
Depression drains your energy, hope, and drive, making it difficult to do what you need to feel better. But while overcoming depression isn’t quick or easy, it’s far from impossible. You can’t just will yourself to “snap out of it,” but you do have some control—even if your depression is severe and stubbornly persistent. The key is to start small and build from there. Feeling better takes time, but you can get there if you make positive choices for yourself each day.
The road to depression recovery
Recovering from depression requires action, but taking action when you’re depressed is hard. In fact, just thinking about the things you should do to feel better, like going for a walk or spending time with friends, can be exhausting.
It’s the Catch-22 of depression recovery: The things that help the most are the things that are the most difficult to do. There’s a difference, however, between something that's difficult and something that's impossible.
Start small and stay focused
The key to depression recovery is to start with a few small goals and slowly build from there. Draw upon whatever resources you have. You may not have much energy, but you probably have enough to take a short walk around the block or pick up the phone to call a loved one.
Take things one day at a time and reward yourself for each accomplishment. The steps may seem small, but they’ll quickly add up. And for all the energy you put into your depression recovery, you’ll get back much more in return.
Depression self-help tip 1: Cultivate supportive relationships
Getting the support you need plays a big role in lifting the fog of depression and keeping it away. On your own, it can be difficult to maintain perspective and sustain the effort required to beat depression, but the very nature of depression makes it difficult to reach out for help. While isolation and loneliness can trigger or worsen depression, maintaining emotionally close relationships can be instrumental in overcoming it.
The thought of reaching out to even close family members and friends can seem overwhelming. You may feel ashamed, too exhausted to talk, or guilty for neglecting the relationship. Remind yourself that this is the depression talking. Reaching out is not a sign of weakness and it won’t mean you’re a burden to others. Your loved ones care about you and want to help. And remember, it’s never too late to build new friendships and improve your support network.
Turn to friends and family members who make you feel loved and cared for. Spend time talking and listening face-to-face with trusted people and share what you’re going through. The people you talk to don’t have to be able to fix you; they just need to be good listeners. Ask for the help and support you need. You may have retreated from your most treasured relationships, but emotional connection can get you through this tough time.
Try to keep up with social activities even if you don’t feel like it. Often when you’re depressed, it feels more comfortable to retreat into your shell, but being around other people will make you feel less depressed.
Join a support group for depression. Being with others dealing with depression can go a long way in reducing your sense of isolation. You can also encourage each other, give and receive advice on how to cope, and share your experiences.
10 tips for reaching out and building relationships
Talk to one person about your feelings
Help someone else by volunteering
Have lunch or coffee with a friend
Ask a loved one to check in with you regularly
Accompany someone to the movies, a concert, or a small get-together
Call or email an old friend
Go for a walk with a workout buddy
Schedule a weekly dinner date
Meet new people by taking a class or joining a club
Confide in a clergy member, teacher, or sports coach
Depression self-help tip 2: Get moving
When you’re depressed, just getting out of bed can seem like a daunting task, let alone exercising. But exercise is a powerful tool for dealing with depression. In fact, major studies show that regular exercise can be as effective as antidepressant medication at increasing energy levels and decreasing feelings of fatigue.
Evidence suggests that physical activity triggers new cell growth in the brain, increases mood-enhancing neurotransmitters and endorphins, reduces stress, and relieves muscle tension—all things that can have a positive effect on depression.
While the most benefits come from exercising 30 minutes or more per day, you can start small. Short, 10-minute bursts of activity can have a positive effect on your mood. You don’t need to train at the gym, sweat buckets, or run mile after mile, either. Even very small activities that get your arms and legs moving can add up over the course of a day. Try incorporating walking, running, swimming, dancing or another rhythmic exercise—that requires moving both your arms and legs—into your daily routine. The key is to pick an activity you enjoy, so you’re more likely to stick with it. Even very small activities can add up over the course of a day. Here are a few easy ways to get moving:
Put on some music and dance around
Take your dog for a walk
Use the stairs rather than an elevator
Park your car in the farthest spot in the lot
Pair up with an exercise partner
Exercise as an antidepressant
The following exercise tips offer a powerful prescription for boosting mood:
Exercise now… and again. A 10-minute walk can improve your mood for two hours. The key to sustaining mood benefits is to exercise regularly.
Choose activities that are moderately intense. Aerobic exercise undoubtedly has mental health benefits, but you don't need to sweat strenuously to see results.
Find exercises that are continuous and rhythmic (rather than intermittent).Walking, swimming, dancing, yoga, and cycling or stationery biking are good choices.
Add a mind-body element. Activities such as yoga and tai chi rest your mind and increase your energy. You can also add a meditative element to walking or swimming by repeating a mantra (a word or phrase) as you move.
Start slowly, and don't overdo it. More isn't better. Athletes who over train find their moods drop rather than lift.
Depression self-help tip 3: Challenge negative thinking
Depression puts a negative spin on everything, including the way you see yourself, the situations you encounter, and your expectations for the future.
But you can’t break out of this pessimistic mind frame by “just thinking positive.” Happy thoughts or wishful thinking won’t cut it. Rather, the trick is to replace negative thoughts with more balanced thoughts.
Ways to challenge negative thinking:
Think outside yourself. Ask yourself if you’d say what you’re thinking about yourself to someone else. If not, stop being so hard on yourself. Think about less harsh statements that offer more realistic descriptions.
Allow yourself to be less than perfect. Many depressed people are perfectionists, holding themselves to impossibly high standards and then beating themselves up when they fail to meet them. Battle this source of self-imposed stress by challenging your negative ways of thinking
Socialize with positive people. Notice how people who always look on the bright side deal with challenges, even minor ones, like not being able to find a parking space. Then consider how you would react in the same situation. Even if you have to pretend, try to adopt their optimism and persistence in the face of difficulty.
Keep a "negative thought log." Whenever you experience a negative thought, jot down the thought and what triggered it in a notebook. Review your log when you’re in a good mood. Consider if the negativity was truly warranted. Ask yourself if there’s another way to view the situation. For example, let’s say your boyfriend was short with you and you automatically assumed that the relationship was in trouble. It's possible, though, he’s just having a bad day.
I don't want to hijack your thread WillDO, but I just want to say this:
Thank you for posting this information about depression, Cadet. I think it's good for everyone, but particularly for those of us left behind. I don't think that I had depression before the BD, but I certainly am fighting it now. Seeing those things in writing is really good for me.
Not at all. Thanks Cadet. These hardly worked for me. Nowadays I take Lithium which helps but what I really do is to use mindfulness when I am in negative thoughts. Of course, when you can't function, the drugs calm your system. The extreme is electric shocks. I know people who have them every month.
I know why you want me to focus on it as that os what my wife complains about. For the past 8 years, I didnt have an episode so we beat it. I am unhappy that she is denying it and saying a wife shouldnt do it. Come on that is selfish. I helped her without questioning. She is questioning. That feels bad.
She believes that even if she cuts contact that she would not feel she is connected to me. She is acting very strange. I even told at the session that to move forward she needs to stop contact. She said there were more underlying problems. I am not denying that but cutting contact is the start.
I am unhappy but not depressed on how I used to. Only thing I can do is to be mindful and live the moment. I also act as if my problems are gone so that I get the feeling.
What kind of goals? Get-A-Life goals?
Of course there are other things in the marriage to work on but NONE of that can happen if there are more than two people in the equation. If there is anyone else in the picture with her then there is ZERO point even discussing working on anything. If that's the case then step back, continue to detach, and do some GAL.
I take Lithium which helps
My mother takes this too so I am quite aware.
I am not telling you to focus on this because it is your wifes complaint, I am telling you to focus on yourself because it is part of DB, and something I really believe in.
The only person that you can CONTROL is YOU!
I hear you. Get A Life
I just was helping my wife on what to do with her cold sores She think the virus will go to her brain. She gives me the fault of talking about the affair with the counsellar. Me again. I avoided talking to protect myself. It was harsh again.
Has been a day I would expect 3 weeks ago; before my wife exploded on me and asked me to leave. We have a planned weekend. This time I sleep in a seperate bed.
I dream and pray for happy times. Looking at activities to GAL
Strangely life has gone into a monoton cycle. Kids ill on their holiday. Daily chores continue. Though a cold breeze in the air.
Let's say you can see that your WW is chatting on Whatsapp. What would No More Mr Nice Guy do? Confront her as it happens? Reminds the boundry? Leaves home as the thought is unbearable? Get A Life and Detach?
Can I have your opinion? I have a one-on-one session with the marriage counselor. Should I mention that I am following DB?
Let's say you can see that your WW is chatting on Whatsapp. What would No More Mr Nice Guy do? Confront her as it happens? Reminds the boundry? Leaves home as the thought is unbearable? Get A Life and Detach?
If he has made a boundary regarding her chatting on Whatsapp, then he just needs to enforce it.
Did you make this a personal boundary? Is it for all chatting, or just certain people or when you are home, or what?
She does it outside the boundry. I suppose what I did was snooping. I did see she was online. I sometimes think she is foing it in front of me but she switces over and claims she is tslking with her mom or girlfriend.
People will always take as much as you'll give. Especially wayward spouses. She'll continue to push boundaries as long as you allow it.
I see her urge to ask for space this time round not conflict as she acknowledges what I am doing is not wrong (changes I did), me being there is;it is free communication. In the morning, she said she is being logical but her heart says something else. And in a herapy she bombards as expedted about my past mistakes. I apologiz d over and I ver again.
I can sleep but still wake up early.
She does it outside the boundry. I suppose what I did was snooping. I did see she was online. I sometimes think she is foing it in front of me but she switces over and claims she is tslking with her mom or girlfriend.
How did you state the boundary to her? What are the consequences if she dishonors your boundary?
I was very direct in words stating to her that She should not contact OM by any means. And the consequence;I left that open ended. I have read your Mr. Nice Guy thread and totally see myself. Though I am who I am.
Again every week I have been on business trips. Less contact but are how we used to be limbo but communicating. Still sleeping in a different room. She has asked if I wanted her to sleep tbere for a while and I said no. I am sure it woukd be used against me later on. Counselling delayed due to my trip. Next session will be a one on one. I will talk with the counselour mainly on what I should do.
The stigma of depressiin is awful. Together we watched Stephen Frys series on BBC about bipolar and it highlighted the fact it is a disease but W has been seeing it as me and the problem of the marriage. This hurts so so so deep. The trust is shattered. Really feel hopeless but forcing the techniques I leanred to cope with the bad feeling.
I striggle to think straight and cope. So lonely. Just despereate.
I just can't predict my W mood swings. I am there to be blamed.
Take a breath. We have very bad days, but tomorrow is a new one. Ask yourself if you are the entire blame for your sitch? My guess is no. Not by a long shot. So that must stir some anger in you. Use that angry energy to get working hard on GAL stuff. I'm not saying take the anger out on W, just use it to your betterment advantage. Make sense?
İt really does make sense. Thanks daybyday.
Something scary happened today. The hanging lamp in the living room fell and pieces of glass scattered around. No one got hurt but someone was under it could have been fatal. I was putting the girls the girls to bed. I ran downstairs. W was there. She was shocked but fine. I started clearing it up. She took a photo and started texting people. one mom another I suspect OM. While I was clearing up, she said if I had planned this, there were other ways to do it. And that I should watch ch House of Cards less often. I said I felt very surprise that she could even think such a thing. She didn't help clearing up at all but phoned her mom. Then said tome that I should leave and let go. I turned on House of Cards. I showed anger at instead of sadness to avoid depression. I am just shocked. Just 2 weeks ago a friend lost her 3 year old while sleeping in a tent together with them. A tree fell on the boy and know killed him. I am scared, worried and frustrated.
Counselling continues on and feedback has been 3 areas;
1. W to allow me to be a parent
2. Work as a team towards the kids
3. Keep conversations adult to adult based on transactional analysis
I suppose for me it is in one way not being Mr. Nice Guy anymore again. But I highlighted how many times I am belittled in front of counsellour and how she wast sure about the relationship. Only a good friend in the house and a past she has distorted. She claims no connection ever.
Again tough times for me. For us.
Will
That's one of the benefits of counselling. And counsellors spot games.
You can challenge and it's ok.
I can understand W why you say that and I am listening. Please realise that when you 3xpress x in that way I feel put down. It is easier for me to hear you if you express things in a y way and I feel more respected.
Just my 2c
V
Thanks V. So yes a third party giving the feedback.
The big elephant for me in counselling is not sex but the affair.
I am not sure if I should confront my wife with a third party.
Thoughts?
WillDo, about the only thing you have really told us about is your depression and her affair. If she will not agree to end the affair and work on the M, then what are your options? 1) Separate, 2)Keep things as they are now. You have been here since 2014, which is fine, however, you seem to be asking the same questions and not getting very far along.
From an outsider's point of view, it appears that your depression pretty much rules you life, and perhaps your W feels it ruled the MR, as well. If a person feels that they are constantly the underdog, then they either act accordingly or rebel against it. How much of your depression is low self-esteem? How often do you feel that you are the underdog at work and/or other places?
At this point, MPO is that you do what is necessary to get well. That needs to be your priority. If that means you have to move away from her, so be it. It may take a break between the two of you in order to be able to become better. Staying together in this environment is not helping you. She might be using the affair as her escape hatch from the reality at home..... but, I don't know. It does seem that something needs to change b/c the counseling is not solving any of the problems. Once you get away from her, you might be able to find the man you use to be, or become better. She would have her space and eventually she might be able to see you as a man she wants, instead of just seeing the depression.
As I have told you, I understand depression. I really do. I hope you will not see anything I've said as criticism. It is very sad to see anyone living the way you and your W are doing now. I hope that both of you can find happiness in the near future.
I suppose deppression and affair are the highlights of my stitch. I have to say I haven't been experiencing depression for 8 years but it has hsd an impact on my marriage. You can say I struggle to ger out of being passive and get into a conflict.
I am having an issue setting boundries and putting a stance. I want to create a better relationship. I try to be patient Isn't atguing with a WW pissing against the wind. Shouldn't I beilve little I hear as she wants to hurt me.
It is difficult. And I cry everyday.
And this is not depression. It is sadness. I am able to control myself. When in depression, I can't get out of bed.
As I said before, W was supportive during my illlness. Now she is critical of my illness. W says it is not in my hands, but regrets being a carer. That hurts.
What I am trying to say is that you write about your problems with depression and her affair. It is not getting anywhere. Maybe we can try to focus on some healthy activities you can start. Some activities that would be good for the mind, spirit and body. See if we can make a few steps forward for yourself.
Tell us about your life outside of the M. What do you do for fun? Do you belong to any organizations, church, club, group, etc. Do you enjoy any hobbies? What type of work do you do every day?
Help us get acquainted with you. What were you like as a teenager in school? Were you shy, popular, in sports, a geek, a leader or a follower, etc.
You said you had problems communicating. Is that with one person, everyone, a particular type of communicating, or what? Have you ever gone to a class that teaches how to communicate effectively?
I see what you are saying.
I would be regarded as a geek. Into his studies and trying hard on whatever I do. Communication hasn't been major trouble however assertiveness has been and I did take course about it. I feel the guilt of saying and/or doing things regarded as bad.
I will expand when I can squeeze in time.
Thank you!
I should speak about myself. But I have nowhere else to go. I know at least somebody will listen. We were on holiday for 10 days. Went well. Even once was called "hero of my life". When we came back, I said I would sleep at the martial bed. She mumbled but I still slept. Tonight went to bed and then after an hour woke up due to jetlag she was not there. She was in the other room. Well sue is right now. She said she couldn't sleep and that I was snoring. I said it will be harder to sleep in that bed. Just nudge me. She said she woukd cme back middle of the night.
And sadest of all, I know she is playing with me. She is probably go yo a concert with OM. I had seen the tickets. She says she will be at yoga but will come with an excuse to get back late.
Really I want to scream out. This is the only place I can ket it out. I have tons to at work, tones to do at home and I can't sleep again.
I read the MLC chapter from the book and tried to hold on Deception is all around me.
I just needed somebody to listen. Thank you.
Hi WillDo. I'm so sorry for difficulties you have been having. You have been betrayed by someone who is very important to you and it is such a violation of trust.
I can relate to the feeling of being surrounded by deception. I struggle with wondering how much of what my H has said to me over the last couple years is truth vs. fiction. It really throws your entire life into question. In part, you wonder how it is that you could have possibly missed all the lies as they piled up.
Hang in there, WillDo. Do whatever you can to take care of yourself right now.
Thanks Phoebe. I try to remrmber the good days and act as if things will turn around.
I rememered an incident before we went to bed. One of her school friends filed a divorce. We had no idea they had issues. Sad to see marriage break. She didn't comment much apart from saying you can display a happy family just like ours.
I stll don't know whether to confront the affair in front f the counsellor. Her resentment could grow.
You know what I felt it before. I feel like an anxious school boy going to school. Anxious of worrying who he will become.
I was curious when she would talk about the concert. She just sent a text that she found a spare ticket. She called and I said "Are you saying the truth" Then I twisted I was talking to a friend. She said she was tired of my paranoia. I did see the ticket in her purse. I didn't say and stick to the story that I was talking to a friend. Well I had to think of a friend speaking my language. So I lied to a lie. I feel awkward.
Should have I told what I know? She must feel guilty. She says I made her lose her motivation. Add things like she doesn't have to get permission and that she earns her own money. Do I put her under pressure?
She must feel guilt. She is lying. But putting pressure on me.
I just needed her to feel bad one way or the other. I don't think she feels that bad. She had scheduled it long before. I don't want confrontation. Especially based on me going through her things. I will wait for her to come back from the concert and be comforting.
And again I am vetting. I have nowhere else. It has been tough keeping my mouth shut and putting up with hurt.
I want to save the marriage.
Again thank you for listening. I know I don't make sense and can't cope with anything.
She says I made her feel bad. I feel confused and now worried. We had a good holiday and again things are taking a wrong route.
She just asked for her passport photo. Sent it straight away and she thanked me. So strange. I know I am betrayed but I put up with it. Just like a read on about.com. Again about MLC. My brain and heart are disconnected.
All I will tell her in the counselling session that I want her to stop any communication with OM without getting into any detail.
Should I ask her to respect me and not lie?
I feel so bad deep down but keeping my head up and living with the lies. Right now she is at a concert of which she had purchased the tickets 6 months ago. I knew about it but she said just today that a friend at work had a spare ticket. I can't imagine how brave she has become. What if a friend see her.. I can't confront. She is in MLC. She does whatever she desires. Whatever I do, nothing changes.
Counselling, does it help?
She left us with saying make up your mind. Do you want to be together or separate and they would help accordingly?
Really? Is that how you help? Before we went in W was happy to cease it. For next session the counselor wants us to discuss. I paid for another session. I found it so much away from psychological help.
I had suggested to you many months ago to AVOID at all costs, any counseling. It doesn't work until there are clear and honest efforts by WAW to fix the M. Stop this as soon as you can. Counselor already gave both of you an ultimatum to decide by next session....something that doesn't need to be decided soon. And indeed forcing a decision now will only lead to a negative outcome.
But more important here is "she says I made her feel bad". Why would you do that? For your ego? Do you want her back or not? Who wants to be with someone who makes them feel bad?
If she reached out and invited you to something, even if you knew she had planned to go with someone else, why wouldn't you go? I mean, if YOU want to go. She reached out to you to crack the door open, and you jammed her fingers in the door.
Look. I'm not sure if you have thought your position out. And I'm not on the forums too much. So I'll just try to summarize what worked for me, and I was in almost the exact situation as you....
You need to be the fun one. YOU become the ones she WANTS to be around. You never make her feel bad. That's not the same as being a doormat at all so don't get the wrong idea here. Doormat is telling her thank you when she disrespects you so that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she initiates and shows desire to spend time with you, you take her up on that offer. You act casual, like someone who is going to enjoy the event that you have tickets for. Nothing more nothing less.
You drop the relationship talks. NOW. AND IMMEDIIATELY. You are do no good by forcing her to think about whether she wants to leave or stay. She's said she wants to leave you and this hasn't changed. What needs to change to force a change in your stalemate is YOU.
GET UP AND DO STUFF. Be happy. Sing your favorite songs in the shower. Hum a tune. Be happy! Because your alive and life is great!
Positivity is comtagious. And more importantly negativity is not only contagious but it's the plague. You've been negative and a downer for s long time and trust me I know how that is. And she's absorbed all of your negativity for years until she cannot pososbly absorb anymore of it without going absolutely insane!! She's held on FOR A LONG TIME!
Find the old guy again. Find that guy she loved. Find that guy that YOU loved. Find the guy who was fun and easy going. Find that guy that didn't have something negative to say to her every single time you open your mouth. Remind yourself how to compliment her. Practice on other people too. Can you compliment her once a week? How about once a day? Nothing sexual, she isn't there yet. But perhaps about your daughter?
"Wife, the way you handled that melt down with D was awesome! ". And say it and really mean it. Remind yourself why you chose this person to be our other half because it's the fact that you forgot those reasons that actually led you to fall asleep at the wheel. Remind yourself brother. And let it sink in. Don't do anything about your M right now. It's in a deadlock that will take time to resolve. But your only chance lays in your ability to find the old magic you once had. One day at a time ...
Can you compliment your daughter? Don't use shallow things like how she looks etc. Can you compliment her intelligence? Can you tell her how much she means to you? There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who is a loving father and who's daughter loves him and wants to spend time with him. This isn't a trick to play on anyone this is an honest return to YOU being YOU the wonderful man who has so much to offer the world. The man that women love, the man that YOUR wife loved.
What are you doing to change your own life? What about changing the dynamic at home?
The only counseling I would recommend would be Michele.
Other than that - I can say without a doubt that counseling probably escalated and sped up my D. It was the wrong thing to do, and would have been easier and more fun to set a $1k bill on fire.
For the moment, I would highly recommend a DB coach if you can swing it, and at the very least follow Sandi's rules. You've GOT to do this before it's too late. I totally understand your trepidation and hesitation. In the heat of the moment it's hard not to. Disconnect, go dark as possible, GAL.
It has been a year yes and you all possibly don't remember me. I wanted to be close to her tonight. Just a gentle touch and she said she doesn't like it. Told me that we are together for getting alone. Not marriage. I have been changing. I have been GALing. Not doing relationship talks. I said I respect her and that I still feel hurt as I feel there is an affair. She said there was none. I asked when it was the last time she saw him and if she was still texting him. This was a boundry I had put. She said she doesn't remember when last she saw him but was texting. She asked again why I was suspicious. Well on her mothers mobile I was a picture of him and her celebrating his birthday and I had noticed she was hiding a sweater.
She kept on asking about f I knew something and I said no. She went and slept at the other room.
I continue to act as if . Not sure what tomorrow will bring but sorry this is the only place I let it out. I was assertive this time. I said I will continue to respect and work.
It is morning now. She asked about D and how to divide assets. I said I don't want a D. She said I should leave as kids settings shouldn't change. I said I don't want them to suffer with seperation. I am doing 180 and she is saying abbornal by acting happy.
Will take the girls to ballet now. I also hd told her I won't touch her again. I had alao said I know tge affair. She today said og probably saw him before Xmas. She will be at home country and be subnitting divorce papers. She said I beeded a lawyer blah blah blah
Sandi2 I read no Mr Nice Guy. I had tried to tell her not to be little me. And that I know you are havung an affair and my reminded my boundry of no contact. Increased level of lithium to cope.
What should I do? Get A Life right.
She kept on going on about Divorce today. She asked me to find another home and blamed me for making it into a dirty divorce by not co-operating. She even said she would call the police to get me out of the house. I told her to do so. I told her she was acting immature. She asked me to think straight. I told her that it is you who needs to think straight.
Yesterday and today she is sleeping in a different bed. I do feel that she is being strange. She is being offensive but I am not taking it. No more Mr Noce guy. her makng a mock of me in front of the kids was rude. I told her that. Then I had to tell her that I still respect her despite an affair. She denied the affair and said she doesn't see OM. I asked when was the last time she saw him. She said she doesn't remember. But I do. I saw a picture of him and her having coffee and wesring the sweater she bought for him. Ans I saw the picture not on her phone. On his mothers phone. She sent it to her mother!!!! I kept quiet. I still am. Didnt tell her that. This morning she went oh I think I saw him before xmas. again I kept my intel to myself. And countless other things I found which I didn't tell since 2014. I worked on my change and I did change. Lost weight, decreased workload (missed a promotion), more involvement in house work, tried to take more risks even I felt bad, followed up on all sorts of taks. Watched out for kids needs, taking them to birthdays, afterschool classes. And I did these with joy. Was I not doing tbem before. I was but work was too much.
This time I feel content and really see no reason why I should leave the house, work with her on a divorce settlement. Why should I leave the family home? I am quiet. And to be more quiet and cope increased my lithium levels.
I said nothing wrong. I told my boundries. During sesiion she was told to dk adult adult cinversions. Despite all my well being, she treats me bad. Her choice.
Wheb this crisis started 2.5 years ago. I took responibility. In Friday, I asked to be treated nice in front of the kids. And said despite the affair I have respect to her and want to continue to be there. I an bot askibg right or wrong. I want a stronger relationship.
No morr Mr Nive Guy. This is my boundry. I am not a door mat.
Will
Let's just chat about boundaries. There is a wonderful thread here on boundaries.
Firstly a boundary is about you and what you can and will do. It is laying out consequences which you can enforce. In no way is it saying how another acts thinks or behaves. Consequences have to be enforced otherwise the boundary is just a dotted line on a map.
Al Turtle writes an amazing essay on boundaries mainly for young teenagers, it was the way I learned to have and enforce boundaries. I understood it from his writing.
If I may I will give you an example from my own experience.
At the time WH was not even a STBEXH and I was DB for my M
The following is a combination ofor phone calls and texts.
V: (T) I can't find the location of the bar I am supposed to pick you up from. Can you give me directions please.
WH: (T) you are so stupid that you can't follow simple directions? It's obvious where I am. I will call you
V: (Call) I am at Xy. Where is that in relation to the bar please?
WH: (Call) you are thick and idiotic, how the f... do I know? I will ask around and see if anyone knows that location.
V: (Call) OK.
WH: (Call) You are so thick that you don't know where you are. F.....g stupid woman.
V: (Call) Please do not swear at me.
WH: (Call) I will say what I want you fat bitch.
V: (T) if you swear at me again, I will put the phone down and cease to task to you. We will communicate only by text.
WH: (T) Suit yourself. I will get a cab back since you are refusing to collect me.
V: (T) I still don't know where the bar is.
WH: (T) P.... off.
V: (T) OK. From now on its text only communications.
WH (Call much later) goes to answerphone where are you? I am still waiting to be collected here. You stupid......
V: (T) Text only. I am no longer answering your calls. If you swear at me again then I will wait two hours before answering any textsuggestions in future.
WH: (Call to answerphone) it is obvious you don't give a f..... about me and are playing games so I have to walk home or spend money on taxis. You are hateful and selfish.
V: (T two hours later) I have now blocked your calls for one week. If this abuse continues I will do so for two weeks.
WH: (T) are you collecting me or not?
V: (T two hours later) I will collect you from z at 12:30. I will wait for fifteen minutes only.
WH: (T) I don't know if I will be there or not.
V no further response turns up at z collects a very drunk WH.
Eventually since the abuse continued I ended up blocking all calls and only responded to texts after 2 days.
--------------------
The boundary, I will not be abused was enforced by withdrawal of contact. In other words, you warn of the boundary and the consequence before you enforce.
My boundary with the Giggalo is still I will not be abused and if he does then I will have another non molestation order or a cease and desist.
---------------------------
So in your sitch your boundary seems to be about what your WW says in front of the children? Can you explain to me exactly the behaviour or words you don't like? Ie define the boundary.
What are the consequences of infringement?
How would you enforce the boundary?
V
She basically told them never find a boy friend like your father. He can't get anything right. That is belittling.
She would be warned telling how she is undermuning my relation with the children.
How can I enforce it? Only thing I can think of is getting the kids to stand up dir me. of course then she befriends them. Ok you. ot with me. Yoy sude wuth your dad.
She basically told them never find a boy friend like your father. He can't get anything right. That is belittling.
She would be warned telling how she is undermuning my relation with the children.
How can I enforce it? Only thing I can think of is getting the kids to stand up dir me. of course then she befriends them. Ok you. ot with me. Yoy sude wuth your dad.
Like most of us, I want to save my marriage and a healthier relationship than before.
Honey
That's not so good. Mildly put V.
It's a technique level 4 abuse called belittling. In parlance parent alienation through triangulation. Mouthful by V, means trying to put the children between you. Your lovely kids want to love and be loved by both their parents. It's hard on kids to be this way.
I want to go slap her with a kipper. (English speak) Tell her to wake up, whatever is been mum and dad is their stuff not for children.
Yes, it's time for boundaries and please please start a log of this.
So what is your boundary?
Are there any secondary ones?
What kind of reinforcement can you do?
V
She is strange V. Possibly I came to stage thinking we have been good for a year and have been building up nicely a relationship. Just a hug not big intimacy backfired. She is in a seperate bed. I truly have difficulty. I read the MLC articles. Do what is there. Leave her alone. Read books. Now she is sleeping in a seperate bed. Ignores me.
Strangely though my twin girls got all of us to play cards. I had been playing with them a fee days in a row. They asked my W to join. W took them out to city today. And one of D asked why I wasn't coming saying poor you you havent been out of house this weekend. I did go out and spend my time but it is their instinct. I am so proud of my girls. Past 2-3 years I have been putting effort spending time with them. W noticed the changes (did what I learned here).
Back again. Relationships are mystery. We work on examples, methods.
Saturday she did D talk. She asked me to be logically and leave the house. She asked if she wanted her to call the police. I said go ahead do it. Then she went on about my ups and downs. Telling her about being rude about me to the girls. And asking her when see last saw OM and that I know she is having an affair is ups and downs. Then she said I was typical bipolar and referred to my sturggle with depression (my last episode was 8 years ago and pat myself on the back how I have been dealing the D crisis and working on my marriage). After that I sad yeah call the police have them section me. I am out of the house and in doctors hands. You will achieve a lot. She wants me to leave the house, sell other assests. Leave the mortgage to her (50% paid due my extra hard work where I got a better job. This has been why at a piont focused on my career. What could I do. I was made redundant knowing my wife is pregnant with my twin girls).
I will log about the boundries. My second one is OM contact. She just doesn't get contact is part of an affair. This is a person whom I caught my wife sending nude not revealng but nude pictures to him. She had said she had gone too far and apologies. Well. ontinued contact. celebrate OMs brithday. gave him a present. took a photo and sent it to her mother. she is a lair and manipulates people. And says I am dumb. She is the noblest and smarterest and entellectual of them all. She even gave him a book about love. She thinks I dont see these. Well I cant control her. I am getting a life.
Do not leave your marital home, deploying is not leaving or abandoning. Make it clear the MBR is your territory.
And leaving the house is not logical especially if your are in forces accommodation. It's a fallacy that men should leave their home, however men do have to be careful they are not side swiped. Accused of awful things because their spouse choose to trigger them. If anything untoward happens record it. This happens to women too of course. Just walk away and never react, keep your hands visible in an argument. And record have a recorder app on your phone always.
If there are ups and downs then it's reactive stuff not personality driven.
Being depressed is not being bipolar. Bipolar is a physiological illness not a mental one. It is not a personality disorder.
Even if you had bipolar, as long as you are stable and medicated then it's merely an illness and if dreadful you are still on active duty so there is a presumption it's ok. Its nonsense talk.
One in four men and one in three women will have depression at some time in their lives. You are in good company, here is a T shirt, join the club it's a big one.
Oh and join the almost one in two workers who have been dismissed or made redundant.
I think W is under the impression that she is entitled, nooooooooooo the world is a different place now. Both spouses are allowed their lives. The day is gone where the dependent spouse (and sometimes that is the male in a traditional M) is free loading for all their lives. As many SATP here report life after D is tough. She will have to work at some point. On the other hand the dependent spouses contribution to an M is equal to the main bread winner contribution. Not lesser. Children in my book come first.
So your W is a WW. Sending nudie pics is part of waywardness. Brazen even and open about it. Collect your evidence especially if your state is a 'fault' state. Judges don't like that type of behaviour, including FB or insta pictures of drinking and wild behaviour. One instance isn't enough although a pattern is.
Yes, GAL, activities with your kids are really GAL. Have a diary and in it each day write about your kids and what you have done with them.
Write like a reporter, unemotional and factual.
For instance WW and I discussed D in a conversation at 6 pm and she said "should I get the police to take you away". I said "no of course not"
Or
Today my daughters requested that I gonly with them....... I spent the day with my daughters going to xyz mall and we had pizza at.....
If needs be staple the receipt to the diary page. Use a bound diary and cross out any blank spaces or days you don't notate.
Or
Today my WW told me I was typical bipolar. As she isn't a diagnostic doctor I responded "in your opinion only, my opinion is different"
Remember when they talk about these things they are likely projecting. It's themselves they are discussing. So she says you are dumb? Projection. She says she is noble smart and intellectual?
That's a description of you. So when she says these things the response is "yout are describing yourself aren't you" response the dumb and on the other "well that's an interesting view of you"
I look forward to reading about boundaries for you. There isn't much you can do about OM although you can diarise the pattern and history.
V
Thank you so much. I feel normal :-) I really do. I spoke up for maybe after a year now, and W still tries to out-speak me.
Yes, I had been keeping a diary of negatives. I will add my positives.
I'm in UK. So the legal sides are probably different. But not important right now. The kids are important.
WillDo:
Thanks for dropping by my thread. I'm sorry I can't keep catch up on your sit right now. I've scanned the posts from Vanilla etc. I can't agree more.
Do not leave your home. Tell her (When she brings it ONLY). if she wants out of the marriage - she should leave. That was one of the best things I did.
In house Sep is the worst. We at first did this one day on one day off thing it worked - but I caved. I thought if we acted like a family it would bring her back.
I wish we had maintained the one day on one day off. She got to cake eat way to much during in house sep.
Whatever you do - do things differently. It really gives you confidence and strength. Shop at different stores, pack a lunch don't buy it, take a different route to work, if you wear jeans - start wearing dress pants, etc.
Trust me it works. It also gives you new things to talk about with people around you. It get's you a new head space.
I started baking, cooking, gardening. I took over everything my W did for the kids - if we needed pants hemmed I got my mum or the tailor to do it - Not her.
I got a motorcycle, etc etc.
Trust me change even the smallest thing. Do 5 push ups a day - in a month you will feel stronger.
Keep at it we are with you.
Do things differently. Yes, thank you. Of course, if it isn't working, change your method.
Ups and Downs. I am questioning life more and more during the down. Maybe it is my bi-polar nature but it is the fact of life that things are sinusoidal.
My work on trying to save my marriage, brought in front of me many many methods.
Therapy; I first went to my previous doctor. Even took my W there. She felt that as a male doctor he was biased. Well at one point he asked her to give a chance for me to talk. In short; he told me to focus on my children, accept my mistake, draw a line and build up a new marriage.
Divorce Busting and MLC articles on the internet; showed me 180. don't fight. don't try to communicate. it is a phase. Spec. MLC.
Gottman; Really showed me the science and the positive approach. Still applying them.
All I want to be is Save My Marriage.
She is sending my Whatsapp messages while in the house. I shouldn't do any contact should I? I am tempted.
so strange I so much yearn for opinions. We all do. Such a forum where we look for answers. I am really thinking of apologiesing of what I said on Friday. I want to tell her that I simply want my kids to be proud of me. Others come out of anger.
Of course this reminds me what my terapist had said. Not to go into depression turn your feeling into anger.
checked the rules. It doesn't say don't apologies. Maybe I can't be Not nice guy. In one day things derailed.
Nothing I did made any improvement, some things just made in house much worse.
So I generally aimed to do what was best for me. If I needed to apologise then I did so. Not sorry, but I apologise you feel that way often went quite a long way to defusing the rages.
Often even if I believed I was in the right I would apologise, not for something I had done or said but as a validation that the Giggalo was angry or upset.
So I apologise that you feel angry is very validating. Thus not apologising for what I had said or done but for its effects on the Giggalo.
The other has a right to their feelings and thoughts. To do as they please, it's up to us to set our boundary on acceptability. The stronger my boundaries the more the Giggalo raged.
So you can say " you have the right to feel that way" and "of course you have the right to do that". "I can see Xy boundary is upsetting you".
Sincerely use and not but, but is an invalidating word. It's very easy when apologising to invalidatensure another's experience.
So when apologising say "I apologise for my comments the other night about xyz, it upset you". Then STFU. Truly STFU is a wonderful thing. Any version of "I apologise but...." is invalidating.
An apology is for you and the effect it has on you. An apology is strong not weak if done correctly.
Just my thoughts
V
Thank you! A great validation.
Don't reply to any messages when she is in the house. If she has something to say to you - she can walk down the hall and say it to your face.
My W tried this with me - she would not reply to my texts - so I stopped sending them. Now when she sends me a text - I typically answer with "Message received" or "Got it". If it requires thought etc. I say - I'll have an answer for you when I see you on XXday.
If I have something to say to her outside of when I see her which is rare. I phone her and I leave a message if no answer. 1/3 of the time she sends a text back i.e. No I don't need the car, 1/3 she calls back, 1/3 she does not respond - then I act in my best interest.
I see so many people on the DB site that get sucked into these text message battles i.e. hot potato. I think it was Vanilla who said that text messages create anxiety e.g. why have they not responded yet, etc. Text messages create all kinds of problems for regular people never mind those of us in a MR crisis.
Don't let the other person hide - look her square in the eye when you talk to her.
So a strange communication method. I continue to write into my diary. She ignores me. 2 nights she has been going to the spare room directly once the Ds are in bed.
Michele feels like an angel. I read the first chapter again and reminded me why I came to this forum. All other ones would call me in a sense a pussy and bully me. Here I have to say only thing I feel how difficult it is to be a no Nice guy. I don't know what is right or wrong. I was keeping up eith things on my side. I was giving her attention and it was working. But now flipped. seeing her photo with OM and her sending to hermother was bad. I was patient until Friday where again she asked me not to touch her that we just co disted for the kids. Back to crisis management. I now have the tools t cope. Back 2.5 years ago I was like a fish out of water. Now I changed became more invovee cared for her and family changed work hours do house chores etc.
Well Michele mentions about changing strategy. Thats what I have to do. And thinking sbout the picture. She had gone quiet because she was filling the gap with the A.
W was out tonight. Came in and ran to talk to the Ds. I put away some dishes and went up. Checked the girls and said Goodnigt to her. no response and now writng this
I think anger had built up. I looked at my journal. There were so many other things I has noticed about OM that I kept quiet.
all really avoid looking at messages. that took me out of paranoia. these were things came in front of me. I didn't try. the last one I was on my in law's phone and saw a recent picture that my wife sent of her and OM. In law had earased the trxt jept the photo. Why?
I am applying mindfulness to cope but suffering to be Mr Not Nice giy.
I put a boundry about kids and OM. But this forced her to go to a different bed. It feels she respects OM still. I can't take it sometimes.
I remember Shodan. He had handled these well. At the end he reconciled. A success story. I hope it continues. He hads so many ups and downs. I would recommended it. I feel like I am at the last stages he explained were seperation waa imnenent but they got back together. And there were 2 OMs. Any new success stories to look at?
I have read some old stiches and don't see success at the end.
Please let me know some.
Sandi's point of Nice Guy sendrom is a strong theory. Even a few days back again my wife said I'm a nice person. But Nice is not what the women wants fo respect. Though that goes against Gottman's theories.
All in all we read what we want and it is an awkward situation.
She is distant from me now. But was I really pieceing or I was putting effort and she was not interested. We did have nice moments recently but on Friday she still turned around and said we are just co existing. Ok here I feel 180 works. Pleading doesnt work. Strangely when I tried fo be happy and acted as if all was ok she just that I was abnormal. She started the argument and when she heard my complaints including OM she just got up and left.
Her dad left and never came back. Doesnt even call his daugther. Maybe that's what she really wants. Go back to family. She even sent a picture of her and OM to her mother!
Please research Mozza he kept lists ofor successes.
It also depends on how you define success. In essence success is you living a healthy life in a great R, with WW or without her.
Success is being a great dad to your Ds even if your R isn't immediately repaired or never. Success is for V I will not be abused, living a life free from abuse.
Success is..........
And Will it strikes me that a man being a great dad, standing for his values, standing for new M. That man called Will is already a success.
Just saying
V
Please research Mozza he kept lists ofor successes.
Theirs a link in the resource thread in my first post
I will research further.
Great words as always.
I am vetting out here. I know it is hard to follow but in a sense I feel I say it out without actually saying out. Thank you for putting up with me.
All
Actually I did my research on my own thread. These 2 updates really summaries my situation and what I have to do. Depression gets me talking but in a wrong way. It is something that really dorsn't get fixed and keeps me back from emotionally intelligent. I have hardly felt I balanced it. And that hurt my wife. All I can do is get back where I found relief suring the days we dated. A therapist helped me at that time. I just don't learn.
Though thanks to this forum and outsider feedback I see better. It just needs to go down for me to realise.
Thank you all
Thought
Update 1:
about the only thing you have really told us about is your depression and her affair. If she will not agree to end the affair and work on the M, then what are your options? 1) Separate, 2)Keep things as they are now. You have been here since 2014, which is fine, however, you seem to be asking the same questions and not getting very far along.
From an outsider's point of view, it appears that your depression pretty much rules you life, and perhaps your W feels it ruled the MR, as well. If a person feels that they are constantly the underdog, then they either act accordingly or rebel against it. How much of your depression is low self-esteem? How often do you feel that you are the underdog at work and/or other places?
At this point, MPO is that you do what is necessary to get well. That needs to be your priority. If that means you have to move away from her, so be it. It may take a break between the two of you in order to be able to become better. Staying together in this environment is not helping you. She might be using the affair as her escape hatch from the reality at home..... but, I don't know. It does seem that something needs to change b/c the counseling is not solving any of the problems. Once you get away from her, you might be able to find the man you use to be, or become better. She would have her space and eventually she might be able to see you as a man she wants, instead of just seeing the depression.
As I have told you, I understand depression. I really do. I hope you will not see anything I've said as criticism. It is very sad to see anyone living the way you and your W are doing now. I hope that both of you can find happiness in the near future.
Update 2;
I had suggested to you many months ago to AVOID at all costs, any counseling. It doesn't work until there are clear and honest efforts by WAW to fix the M. Stop this as soon as you can. Counselor already gave both of you an ultimatum to decide by next session....something that doesn't need to be decided soon. And indeed forcing a decision now will only lead to a negative outcome.
But more important here is "she says I made her feel bad". Why would you do that? For your ego? Do you want her back or not? Who wants to be with someone who makes them feel bad?
If she reached out and invited you to something, even if you knew she had planned to go with someone else, why wouldn't you go? I mean, if YOU want to go. She reached out to you to crack the door open, and you jammed her fingers in the door.
Look. I'm not sure if you have thought your position out. And I'm not on the forums too much. So I'll just try to summarize what worked for me, and I was in almost the exact situation as you....
You need to be the fun one. YOU become the ones she WANTS to be around. You never make her feel bad. That's not the same as being a doormat at all so don't get the wrong idea here. Doormat is telling her thank you when she disrespects you so that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she initiates and shows desire to spend time with you, you take her up on that offer. You act casual, like someone who is going to enjoy the event that you have tickets for. Nothing more nothing less.
You drop the relationship talks. NOW. AND IMMEDIIATELY. You are do no good by forcing her to think about whether she wants to leave or stay. She's said she wants to leave you and this hasn't changed. What needs to change to force a change in your stalemate is YOU.
GET UP AND DO STUFF. Be happy. Sing your favorite songs in the shower. Hum a tune. Be happy! Because your alive and life is great!
Positivity is comtagious. And more importantly negativity is not only contagious but it's the plague. You've been negative and a downer for s long time and trust me I know how that is. And she's absorbed all of your negativity for years until she cannot pososbly absorb anymore of it without going absolutely insane!! She's held on FOR A LONG TIME!
Find the old guy again. Find that guy she loved. Find that guy that YOU loved. Find the guy who was fun and easy going. Find that guy that didn't have something negative to say to her every single time you open your mouth. Remind yourself how to compliment her. Practice on other people too. Can you compliment her once a week? How about once a day? Nothing sexual, she isn't there yet. But perhaps about your daughter?
"Wife, the way you handled that melt down with D was awesome! ". And say it and really mean it. Remind yourself why you chose this person to be our other half because it's the fact that you forgot those reasons that actually led you to fall asleep at the wheel. Remind yourself brother. And let it sink in. Don't do anything about your M right now. It's in a deadlock that will take time to resolve. But your only chance lays in your ability to find the old magic you once had. One day at a time ...
Can you compliment your daughter? Don't use shallow things like how she looks etc. Can you compliment her intelligence? Can you tell her how much she means to you? There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who is a loving father and who's daughter loves him and wants to spend time with him. This isn't a trick to play on anyone this is an honest return to YOU being YOU the wonderful man who has so much to offer the world. The man that women love, the man that YOUR wife loved.
What are you doing to change your own life? What about changing the dynamic at home?
This is more focused on you Will.
It doesn't go far enough in my thinking. All of the above is focused on your WW and your M.
I would love to see Will focus on himself and his children.
I still see a man in denial, still at the first phase of the Kubler Ross cycle. REALITY is step 1. Things won't change for Will until denial ceases.
Yes sadness, anger and even self doubt pain are all on the road to recovery. I promise that although this is tough, the no more Mr nice guy, who is not nice at all us going to grow into an amazing human.
Your Ds love their dad, I say this often, your spouse may only be with you for a short period, your Ds are your Ds for the whole of your life. These precious bundles are worth the work.
V
All
Actually I did my research on my own thread.
Good, I read a different past threads every month. It reads differently every time.These 2 updates really summaries my situation and what I have to do.
Be prepared to change, not be so definitive, use choose rather than have to. Make the choice to act and know sometimes staying still is an active choice.Depression gets me talking but in a wrong way.
Has this been diagnoised? If not it may be anxiety or fear or.......
I am not keen on labels. Plus there are often multiple causes of this. It is something that really dorsn't get fixed and keeps me back from emotionally intelligent.
Emotional intelligence is a choice. It's a skill set that can be learned and used like any other skill. It's not innate. There are plenty of examples here on the board of posters who have shifted as a result of acquiring and using these skills. I have hardly felt I balanced it.
This is judging.And that hurt my wife.
Mind reading. Those are her feelings not yours, you are not in control of her emotions. No one makes another 'hurt' although they act in ways which are hurtful, deliberately or accidentally. If your actions were neglectful then clear them up. Apologise, atone, move on, you are different and continue to change.All I can do is get back where I found relief suring the days we dated.
Really? All you can do? Black and white thinking. Catastrophising. A therapist helped me at that time.
I just don't learn.
Oh dear, more judging, more absolute thinking! You chose not to, own up to that choice and make a different one. Choose to learn and you will. Build a classroom for Will, there are so many tools out there. If you want try get.gg which is an amazing charity site packed full of free learning tools. There are many out there, some paid, I used the brain gym for six months. I chose to learn, recently someone asked 'how did you get so high functioning?'. When I first posted here I knew zero, I had no boundaries. Believe it or not I wrote 'contempt is not a boundary for me'. The amazing Sandi put me straight with no that's not the way it should be.Though thanks to this forum and outsider feedback I see better. It just needs to go down for me to realise.
What you are doing is serving you well, otherwise you wouldnt do it, it keeps you stuck and maintains the status quo. Otherwise you would be making different choices. This reminds me a little of Ghost and being stuck in denial. I have a great affection for Ghost, this wonderful man loves his children and his W so much and so hung on to the status quo as long as he could. It's a valid choice, if its yours then that's fine. Thank you all
Thought
Update 1:
about the only thing you have really told us about is your depression and her affair. If she will not agree to end the affair and work on the M, then what are your options? 1) Separate, 2)Keep things as they are now. You have been here since 2014, which is fine, however, you seem to be asking the same questions and not getting very far along.
From an outsider's point of view, it appears that your depression pretty much rules you life, and perhaps your W feels it ruled the MR, as well. If a person feels that they are constantly the underdog, then they either act accordingly or rebel against it. How much of your depression is low self-esteem? How often do you feel that you are the underdog at work and/or other places?
At this point, MPO is that you do what is necessary to get well. That needs to be your priority. If that means you have to move away from her, so be it. It may take a break between the two of you in order to be able to become better. Staying together in this environment is not helping you. She might be using the affair as her escape hatch from the reality at home..... but, I don't know. It does seem that something needs to change b/c the counseling is not solving any of the problems. Once you get away from her, you might be able to find the man you use to be, or become better. She would have her space and eventually she might be able to see you as a man she wants, instead of just seeing the depression.
As I have told you, I understand depression. I really do. I hope you will not see anything I've said as criticism. It is very sad to see anyone living the way you and your W are doing now. I hope that both of you can find happiness in the near future.
Yes I really agree. And other than new strategies this is still the case I think.Update 2;
I had suggested to you many months ago to AVOID at all costs, any counseling. It doesn't work until there are clear and honest efforts by WAW to fix the M. Stop this as soon as you can. Counselor already gave both of you an ultimatum to decide by next session....something that doesn't need to be decided soon. And indeed forcing a decision now will only lead to a negative outcome.
Yes, I don't believe MC is a good idea when one party has an A.But more important here is "she says I made her feel bad". Why would you do that?
No one makes another 'feel' anything. It's nonsense. We can provide an environment in which x or y happens or we can act in ways that are intended to do that. WW bad feelings are her own, grow up WW take responsibility for your own feelings and set boundaries. An A Is not a boundary.
Is not 'why would you'.
We are not omnipotent we don't create feelings in others. And there is no such emotion as 'feeling bad'. It sounds like WW is unsure of her feelings and identify them. It's her sandpit not yours.
There are several sets of feelings and in none of them is 'bad' identified as a feeling. Feelings are a little like knobs on an analogue music mixer, in other words they can be graded and identified. Have you watched the film Inside Out? It's a Disney film, great to watch with your Ds, in it the following five feelings are identified from the prime list of anger, pride, joy, sad, disgust, fear. I recommend owning this film and watching it. I have watched it many many times.
Examine the two states guilt (for what you have done) and shame (for who you are). Guilt is useful it initiates change of behaviour and induces atonement. One of the peeps you atone to is yourself. Atone and forgive you. Keeping yourself hooked on shame keeps you stuck. Listen to Ted talks, i recommend Brene Brown on shame.For your ego? Do you want her back or not?
I truly disagree with this. Clearly you want 'her' back, but 'her' as she is? And who is 'you'? Who wants to be with someone who makes them feel bad?
I think this needs to read 'with someone who is invalidating'. Validating is a skill set and so is ceasing to invalidate. By denying WW her feelings and her right to them, or trying to manage them , that's invalidating. If WW says she feels bad, that is her feeling and she has a right to it. Even if she means, sad or angry or disgusted. Being Mr Happy to trigger the same in WW is invalidating her right to feel bad, angry etc. Not something that can be done, another's state is their state. Concentrate on your own and being authentic for yourself. Otherwise you invalidate your own feelings!
I often see others here saying they are validating when they are invalidating. On the abuse thread is a post about invalidating and it is as important to stop digging with invalidating as it is to start validating.
It's another skill set. And validating doesn't mean agreeing, it is acknowledging another's right to their beliefs, thoughts and feelings. Invalidating isn't disagreeing, it is negating.and being Mr Happy to manage your WW feeling 'bad' is invalidating. It is gaslighting. Permanent authentic change is needed by each of us to become the best we can be.
This is the way I see it today.If she reached out and invited you to something, even if you knew she had planned to go with someone else, why wouldn't you go? I mean, if YOU want to go. She reached out to you to crack the door open, and you jammed her fingers in the door.
She is with someone else, besotted even. So yes I would not only want to trap her fingers but her whole goddam arm too. Quite rightly too. Doesn't mean we sabotage our DB efforts. Just we accept our feelings.--------'---------
Look. I'm not sure if you have thought your position out. And I'm not on the forums too much. So I'll just try to summarize what worked for me, and I was in almost the exact situation as you....
You need to be the fun one. YOU become the ones she WANTS to be around. You never make her feel bad. That's not the same as being a doormat at all so don't get the wrong idea here. Doormat is telling her thank you when she disrespects you that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she initiates and shows desire to spend time with you, you take her up on that offer. You act casual, like someone who is going to enjoy the event that you have tickets for. Nothing more nothing less.
Well ok. I would want the A stopped too.You drop the relationship talks. NOW. AND IMMEDIIATELY. You are do no good by forcing her to think about whether she wants to leave or stay. She's said she wants to leave you and this hasn't changed. What needs to change to force a change in your stalemate is YOU.
OK. New R required here. You have no control over her. Do this or that and it will change if she wants to leave you? Maybe.....
although how us this going to stop her A behaviour or waywardness?
GET UP AND DO STUFF.
AbsolutelyBe happy.
No, be authentic. Fake happiness is more denial of your reality. In the fake it until you make it stakes, won't cut mustard. Really are you happy she is in A? I doubt it. Why fake you are?Sing your favorite songs in the shower. Hum a tune. Be happy! Because your alive and life is great!
GAL improves mood, no doubt. Do this for you, because it is the best for you. Not because of your M and WW . Positivity is comtagious.
So build a positive environment for you and your childrenAnd more importantly negativity is not only contagious but it's the plague. You've been negative and a downer for s long time and trust me I know how that is.
YesAnd she's absorbed all of your negativity for years until she cannot pososbly absorb anymore of it without going absolutely insane!! She's held on FOR A LONG TIME!
No. Once again control. You are a super powered villain you can do this? NO NO no. This was a dance between two. You are only responsible for you. WW isn't a child, this infantalises her, takes away her role.Find the old guy again.
No. The old guy can be kindly told, thank you. You did the best you could, now it's time for me to be new guy. A better newer guy, someone who is made from who he wants to be Find that guy she loved. Find that guy that YOU loved.
Keep what works.Find the guy who was fun and easy going.
No, be authentic not a Pollyanna or a male version of. Be you, the best you can be.Find that guy that didn't have something negative to say to her every single time you open your mouth.
Find that guy who has such gratitude and positives in his life he is bursting with positivity. That guy has this because there are real positives in his life. Genuine positivity.Remind yourself how to compliment her. Practice on other people too. Can you compliment her once a week? How about once a day? Nothing sexual, she isn't there yet. But perhaps about your daughter?
"Wife, the way you handled that melt down with D was awesome! ". And say it and really mean it. Remind yourself why you chose this person to be our other half because it's the fact that you forgot those reasons that actually led you to fall asleep at the wheel. Remind yourself brother. And let it sink in. Don't do anything about your M right now. It's in a deadlock that will take time to resolve. But your only chance lays in your ability to find the old magic you once had. One day at a time ...
I prefer validation to praise. Sounds a little Uriah Heap to me. The humble man, or the fake flatter. Validate, and learn how not to invalidate.Can you compliment your daughter? Don't use shallow things like how she looks etc. Can you compliment her intelligence? Can you tell her how much she means to you?
Express love and validate.There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who is a loving father and who's daughter loves him and wants to spend time with him. This isn't a trick to play on anyone this is an honest return to YOU being YOU the wonderful man who has so much to offer the world. The man that women love, the man that YOUR wife loved.
Not if they are in full on A!
Have interactions because you and your D love to have fun together. WW is a by line.What are you doing to change your own life? What about changing the dynamic at home?
Oh Yes, the best thing yet. You do this for you. -----------------------
One of the most important things is to look to your own emotional growth. Emotional maturity and resilience is about knowing your own emotions.
Additionally, Will I believe I read faulty thinking. A useful exercise is to read one of your own threads and identify key faulty thinking
Judgement
Labelling
Invalidating
All or nothing
Absolutes and definitives
Should, will, must, have to use choose to
Black and white thinking
Negativity
Among others its an eye opener to do, if you do the analysis impartially
Once you know then you will never unknow
Time for shift, I read this Will.
V
invalidation cheat sheet (tongue in cheek)
Vanilla you are so considerate. Depression was diagnosed. Spent 2/3 years with therapy for Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. You see for you identifying the thinking pattern is easier. I struggle. I have to say I have feel ill like not getting out of bed style for almost 9 years. At the beginning of my stitch, my wife was saying she wouldn't take it if I did fall ill. My therapist which I visited at that point said turn it into anger.
I will your words over and over again. I don't want to be defensive.
Will depression is tough.
Very tough.
You do what you can, shoulding on yourself and poor thinking will drag you back to that place.
For today, that's not you. You are here, choosing to be authentic.
CBT has great tools for cognitive reasoning! It's all about cognition. Let us dig into those, using a worksheet and notebook Will. Let's work to change that beating up on Will.
So what choices do you have?
What can you do to stop judging yourself?
Where does this come from, what does it feel like, is it coloured, moving, how is your body?
It isn't easy although it gets more obvious with practice.
How early did it start? Is it from childhood?
Has this been examined?
As always you can say no V. I am not offended by my questions staying unanswered. I truly believe that you are beginning to change.
I also believe anger of the right type is very motivating and necessary for certain types of change.
I say change, change changes back. Shift is permanent, that is what I dearly wish for Will.
And being down is and can be a very valid response and stimulate shift. It's often a physiological mechanism which requires intervention. Important extreme self care and I would like to say there is no blame or shame or guilt needed for depression. This is part of being human. It's ok.
V
Let me try to fill in the blanks as I am sure there are people depressed. Failed relationship is one of the causes of depression.
Now I have seen probably 5 psychiatrists and 3 psychologists. Do I know the reason for my long running depression? No. What I have learned is that the cause is less important. You need to know how to cope with it. It isn't like to dive deep find something and fix it. And good doctors never come to a conclusion. They ask questions and have you go through the voyage. They merely reflect and influence your thinking. In my experience psychologists have been able to get me on track. Yes, I did get a med from the psychiatrist but it was the talking therapy kept me going.
Bipolar well that is a result of back to back depressions. Possibly from 10 years old every 2 years I felt really low very low. At the end, lithium and more importantly mindfulness really helped me. Look there are people around who get electric shocks every 6 months and try to go on with a normal life. These are educated people.
I am ok but as I read myself I noticed that yes I am asking the same questions. So my body function is ok but my thinking still not there. Hence I would say I am not getting to my W. Being who I once was and even better.
That's me. I Will Do.
From the archives I read your first sandi2. Made me think to use the data for research. So many personal adventures captured.
I meant sandi2 s first post
very early morning. wanted to jot a few things. want to be happy. maybe with my outburst she thought I want it done. all I want to say was my boundry. she does have OM in her head but during the argument she didn't reveal anything. but yes she is lying.
This Friday and weekend we were more together. Around the kids but she was less resistant to have me involved. Fri were all at the dentist and went to have pizza. Sat there was a birthday. Did 2 hrs shopping together then I took the girls to the birthday. Sun they ran and I went to get some stuff. Girls donut and a sesame bar for W. They enjoyed it. Again Sun she wanted to drop things to her workplace. She said they could drive. I said Inwould take them. I did and we had coffee and desert. Came back daily stuff and slept. She wants to cycle on Sun so will help on that next week. I love my family. W now sleeps somehwere else but when she was with me she did speak to me but didnt want me near her. Her interaction with OM might have increased and did that on Fri. I don't know. Inacn't be No More Mr Nice Guy. My attitude is not right. It pushes her away. I did send an apology to her during the week.
V, Sandi2 I just can"t. Yes I have seen examples where setting boundries works. Mine was a build up of events. As it says on chp 12. Think about patience. Multiply a million. Waiting in limbo again.
And Sat was odd. She said she didnt want me but suddeny said come on. This is where I do 180. I don't beg. I suggest. Then I find something else to work with.
V I focus on the kids. I play with them and be there for them. I have done plenty in the ast 3 years.
Trust me change even the smallest thing. Do 5 push ups a day - in a month you will feel stronger.
This... If you can't face gyms, or going out, body weight exercises are fantastic. Download an iBook called Convict Conditioning. (Don't get the paperback, it's out of print in the UK and Amazon will fleece you big time for a copy).
It's geared so that you can start really easy if you are not in good conditioning, and even if you are. trust me - I started doing pushups for the 22/day challenge last Summer, kept on with it, upped the reps, then discovered this book - I have increased the difficulty, and my muscles and body shape are the best they've been in for over a decade. Without gym equipment. Pushups, Squats, Pullups, Leg raises. All in your own home. (OK, I did the LBS diet after BD, which helped lose the excess baggage around the midsection, but we all do that. Turn a negative into a positive)
WW notices and comments? Great. I don't care, because I notice and feel good about myself.
Once you start feeling good about yourself without the need for other's approval, you can start feeling good about other things in life.
checked the rules. It doesn't say don't apologies. Maybe I can't be Not nice guy. In one day things derailed.
Apologise if you have done something wrong, and you are truly sorry. Do it because it is the right thing to do.
Don't get conned into apologising for everything, or apologising for what you said instead of how you said it, or how you behaved.
So, I am better now at saying "I am sorry I reacted in that way / Or I am sorry I said it in that way"
This is not the same as saying "I am sorry for what I said" if in fact, the message was what you wanted to say, but the delivery was not.
I am applying mindfulness to cope but suffering to be Mr Not Nice giy.
I put a boundry about kids and OM.
What boundary did you put in place? Or is this 2 boundaries? 1 for kids and 1 for OM?
But this forced her to go to a different bed. It feels she respects OM still. I can't take it sometimes.
You did not force her to do anything. My W also says this - she moved to another room after trying to keep me out of the MBR. It was her choice. If they don't want to sleep in the same bed as you, then it is their choice. Trying to get you to move is so that they can feel justified that you are the bad guy, they deserve to have the MBR, they sleep better, etc etc, it is all the fault of the LBS, they would never have had an EA/PA if it wasn't for us... It's all bollocks.
Stop focusing on OM.I wasted too long on this. And still do occasionally, although these days I tend to think about what I can do to p!ss him off... But there's nothing to be gained.
Mindfulness is good. I even use the 'sleep stories' on the 'Calm' meditation app to help me sleep, and they actually work really well.
Thank you. I never thought about it that way. A year ago yes she made me move to the other room. This year during the argument she just left.
I don't know what nudged me but I check her emails today. Found similar emails from OM that I was aware of. I took pictures are archived safely. An OM who has had 2 divorces. But I did focus on OM. I don't know why. Today I kept on thinking even the past year she didn't cut contact. I had enough clues. No confrontation of course. I am following the MLC chapter.
She has more contact with me but runs to her room as soon as the kids are asleep.
I am trying to limit the time I am on this forum. Though I get curious. Otherwise my mind will be full of it.
I did also notice she looked for 2 bed apartments. Well I don't know. I am doing 180. Not following the instinct. We had a date on 9th of March from the past. I wonder what will happen.
Another early morning session. Last night my hands were shivering when I wenf through stuff. I am fine. When she was sleeping next to me she was talking to me but then ignoring me. A part of me wants to beg. I don"t want ...
I can only pray.
Bye
Couldn't resist. I need to wait for her to talk right? I don't mean R talk.
Well she asked me ro pixk up her lenses. Asked me to help wirh the bicycles.
I want to invite her to watch films.
You will say cake eating. She is in MLC. I have to put up with it.
For GAL last night I watched Laurel n Hardy.
If she is involved with the OM then I wouldn't invite her to watch films or anything else...
Well she wanted to watch something on TV. I watched with her. All night she hasn't really spoken to me. We are like friends who have been offended and so doesn't want to talk. I am trying to be patient and read and listen as much as possible.
Try the relationship alive series. Michele is there twice including about her last book. In total around 3 hrs of talk. That is a lot. This is on youtube. I wish she had more content like that. so 2 episodes one about Divorce Remedy other Healing from Infidelity.
What do you listen to? This is one thing Michele advises.
Again up early and jotting. I rread an article from Michele where it says count ups and downs. So yeah when you think things are better, I hit bottom. I am worried not to reflect it at work. In a sense I dont feel very different as past year I was Cinderella. She still ignored me. Didn't connect. Spoke with me and tension was low. But as she said she just tried to coexisted and continued to see OM. In another article the person gave up mentioning as will have to ait the partner to decide. I thouggt my W had. I continue to do 180 and focus on the kids.
I also think she feels hurt when I mention it is an affair. She had asked me not to mention it to the consellor. I listened and didn't. well I did but not the details. She said whe she was going to the other room that yeah go on thinking you are betrayed. The next morning when she talked about D and when I said I was worried about the constant messaging and I didn't see anything. She said she met probably before xmas. So in a sense she said something. Is this the guilt or a way of justifing her bad behaviour. I thought when she had left her prevoius job where she worked with him things would be over. Those emails I found. Flirtish onens when OM sends underwear pics and asks favs.She deleted his messages but didn't delete the sent folder. I don't want to see the sexting :-( Hey all don't do it. please don't do. I had seen similar bedore. Nothing new. Doesn't help. That is one thing I learned.
But is she feeling guilty. If so why is she sending pics woth OM on his birthday to her mother! Trying to be clean!
Will
Whatever you concentrate on gets bigger. In my sitch there were at least 9 OW or POW. Some of them unknowing that WH (as was) was M. Others just horrible horrible peeps.
I have no sympathy for OP of any kind. And knickers don't just fall off. It takes planning and scheming to have an A. And if they will have an A with you then they will have an A when they are R with you.
Ridiculous.
Concentrating on the details of it won't help though. Not in any way, I do believe in Intel, the existance of an R and if possible who is in the A. Frankly knowing how many times they pick each others noses and with which bodily flUids only helps in fault D.
Keep a detailed log of it, write the facts of it down and journal the emotion here.
You ask what helped?
1 TED Talks Brene Brown, over and over
2. Mind mapping and looking at MY GOALS
3. Exercise and weight loss. So far 45lbs another 15lbs to go
4. If you read my early sitch GAL, I GAL like the best
5. Extreme self care including medical help and IC
6. Mindfulness, tried several apps and in the end settled for just various U tube
7. AL Turtle, I devoured his stuff on boundaries
8. Any book recommended here as helpful to anyone- some inspirational and some just bizarre in their theories
9. Reading about abuse and D
10. Zelda, Greengrass, Ancaire, Mutatio, Pigpen, Joe, Sandi, MrBond, Wonka, Dawn....... and loads more, my tribe here plus Vets
11. My higher power and resolving my own FOO (thank you Mutatio for walking that path with me, Pyrite, Whyus) finding out about ACES
12. CBT and NLP for my complex PTSD
13. Nutritional help
14. Inside Out (the film)
15. Having Sandi guide rules printed and laminated
..............
There are ways and means of recovering and developing yourself.
That is the focus, you on you. I read the hurt and pain, I read the down and blues. That is an extra difficulty Will. You are in the right place here. There are wonderful posters and your tribe who will guide you. Look to those further along the path and know that becoming the best you can be is a wonderful achievement.
It's ok, you are doing fine.
V
But is she feeling guilty. If so why is she sending pics woth OM on his birthday to her mother! Trying to be clean!
If there is any guilt she is feeling, it may be because she knows - deepdown somewhere - that the affair hurts you. However, since she is sending pictures to his mother, that suggests that there is much more to this affair than you know. It is what it is.
Don't try to read anything into it as there is nothing to read. She's involved with someone else, period. Sorry to be blunt, but it needed to be said. What can you do in this time? Work on yourself. That's all. Become the best WillDo that you can, because no one else can do that for you. OWN YOUR ROAD.