Hello to all… First time poster… I tried this a while back in another forum and got blasted with negativity so I never went back.
Here’s my story… married for 12 years. 3 great kids… 10 and younger… Thought I had the perfect life. Always thought my wife could try harder, but loved her regardless. I was always proud of her and felt lucky to be with her. I had a rough summer, very frustrated with her lack of affection. We seem to be the exact opposite of most cases where the man doesn’t do anything with the kids, around the house, or show his wife love. I do everything with my kids and do everything a guy should do for his wife.
Anyway, I became pretty angry this summer due to the lack of attention and took most of my anger out on the kids (I’m still sick about that). By the end of the summer I found out she had met someone at a concert and kept in contact. They met up once after. After some time she told me it was over. I trusted her and began picking up the pieces of my life. A couple months later I found they were still in contact (He lives 4 hours away). That was about a month ago. She swears it’s over now and wants to save our marriage. She gave me access to phone records and other things. I started checking but that will drive me crazy. I contacted him and he apologized and swore he would never contact her again. She seems sincere. She is going to counseling as an individual and as a couple. She tells me every day she loves me and other small efforts that weren’t there in the past.
Here’s part of the problem. I push. I am needy. But I wasn’t always this way and I am working hard to not be. I used to be confident and independent. But she pulled away after we had kids so I became in secure and pushed and pushed. I just wanted to make her happy. Her personality is challenging. She had a real rough childhood. Her mom has been married 3 times and has had several other long term boyfriends. Her dad died young in a plane crash. But this hasn’t stopped my wife from having a successful career. Yet , I don’t think she ever experienced an example of a healthy relationship. Plus my wife [censored] at showing emotion. She is not in touch with her feelings at all. She has huge walls up. She spends a lot of time shopping to fill a void in her life and spends lots of time on Facebook and Pintrest. She has pulled away from me and the kids (even though she denies this adamantly), needing space.
Deep down I believe she is a good person. She’s a great, loving mother when she is present. I believe she wants to do the right thing. I believe she wants our marriage and our life. I just think she has no idea how to be in a relationship and has no real direction in her life. She wants to be magically happy. She wants things we can’t afford. I think her unhappiness in our marriage is really unhappiness with her life, and lack of meaning it has. For the last few years she has invested very little into our marriage so she has gotten very little out of it. She has never said she wants out. She has always said she loves me. She said she doesn’t know why it happened and never had any plans of leaving me and only sees a life with me.
I will take some responsibility for pushing her away. I always thought I wanted/needed more physical intimacy. Now I realize I just wanted to feel loved.
I do everything around the house. She doesn’t sit on her butt ever, but she does things that are of no real consequence. I do so much with the kids… because I like to. Like I said, I was in a bad place… and not a happy person for a while… but for most of our marriage I have been an outstanding husband and father. I can now I see how foolish I was this past summer and I am doing all that I can to make quality time with my kids. I think she is seeing the changes and likes them, but is still acting like once I’m the right person she will be back in love with me. Like all that needs to be done is me changing.
I’ve read a dozen books. I just started the Divorce Remedy this week. I wish I started with this book. I realize I’ve been doing the same thing for years and it hasn’t worked. I need to try something new. If you spent a day in our house you wouldn’t think we have issues. We get a long great. Her biggest hangup is she has lost passion for me. She feels I’m not a confident guy anymore. When I am around her this is true because I feel so defeated. Anywhere else I am confident in myself. She felt passion for the other guy and misses that and is scared we can never have it. I try to explain we can have that if she acts passionately to me. IF she gave our marriage half the effort she gave to the other guy she would feel it again. She’s amazingly stubborn. But I swear when she is at her best there is no one better. The last few months it’s like she was replaced with someone else. She has alienated long time friends and family. Everyone is wondering what is going on with her. Everyone, including her will say I am a GREAT husband. It’s like it’s a mid life crisis.
So here is where I am at… things are slowly getting better… I have hope… but I still don’t think she is 100% sold that it can get better. She still gets annoyed with things like me reading all kinds of marriage books when she has yet to read one. I just want her to try harder, to do something. I started the 40 day love dare a couple weeks ago… but now I’m thinking I’d be better off doing the 180 and leaving her alone, backing way off. The problem is there isn’t an ounce of jerk in me. I know I need to get more of my own life, but with her pulling away from the kids I feel like I need to be there for them. I coach my kids’ teams and I am busy with other activities, so I just want to be home with my kids when I am not working. I have no desire to go out to the bar with buddies. I quit drinking because of the meds I’m on. I’m finding a new connection in my faith… I just want my wife back. I want it to hit her… like hey… if I want to be happily married I have to bring happiness to the marriage… if I want to feel passion I have to act passionately… I want her to invest into our marriage and our family so she can realize that is how you get the feelings you want.
So I’m looking for advice. I think I am at the point where I need to try something different. I think I need to back away. But how do I do that without being seen as a jerk, especially when the new happy me seems to be making slow progress.
Feel free to offer insight or ask questions. Sorry this was a jumbled mess… kind of reflects my mind right now.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Let me be among the first to welcome you to our community. There are wonderful people here that are experiencing similar issues and they will be along to support you.
I can relate, in part, to your wife. Although, I did not have a childhood like she experienced, I think anyone can go through what she is feeling right now. My husband and I had been married for many years and life had taken its toll on our family. I had been very unhappy with him for a long time, and my feelings shut down. I met OM on line and began an Internet affair that almost led me to destroying my marriage. However, I stumbled my way to the DB board one night, and I received extremely good advice. It was a huge part in guiding me in savingq myself and my marriage. I have been here since 2007 in trying to pay forward the help I received.
Your wife is probably very depressed, which is natural coming out of any kind of an affair. Emotional affairs are highly addictive. I give her credit for being transparent in her phone/computer activity and seeking help with a counselor. Your part will not be easy, either. It takes so much patient on the part of the betrayed husband. And, the more understanding you have about these matters, the better you will be equipped to getting the relationship back on track.
I can only imagine a little girl growing up like she did, and how she would learn very early to guard her emotions. From your standpoint, you are probably looking for some sign, some emotion from her that will show hope. At the moment, it is taking all she has to just get through the withdrawal period from her affair. It is as strong as getting off some drug addiction. The hardest period for her will be while she's going through the withdrawal. When I was going through it, I often felt like I had died and only my body was walking around.....and surely my soul had already left. I felt nothing but a huge void.
It was very hard on my husband, b/c like you, he wanted to see me putting effort back not the marriage relationship. I, on the other hand, had been what we call a wayward wife, and it was not something that could or would snap back immediately. I tell you this, not to discourage you but to arm you with the information my husband did not have. He became very depressed when he did not see me trying harder to be the woman I once had been. I want you to know that it takes a long time for her to get through this depression, deal with the feelings of the affair, and the why she isn't feeling much for you at the moment.
One reason she isn't experiencing any passion for you is b/c she has to get over the emotions for the OM. Although the affair is over, her feelings cannot switch over so quickly. Women don't love (sexual love/desire) but one man at a time. That's how she's made. So she has to get rid of all traces of the feelings she had for him. And the hardest part of those "feelings" for him....was pure fantasy. I have no doubt that she had built this up in her mind to be the answer to all her dreams, and all her problems. He was going to be her prince. To give up that fantasy is very hard, and draining, and depressing.
You may think I am presumptuous about someone I don't even know. Truthfully, all wayward wives (WW) have similar symptoms, just like some diseases can be diagnosed by their symptoms. Waywardness is not a disease, however, when it really takes over a person's life, you wonder if some alien has replaced the wife you knew.
It is very, very similar to a midlife crisis. I think many people have labeled their spouse as having a MLC, when actually, they were wayward. It seems easier for some people to accept the idea that it's a MLC. Anyway, you will see the majority here in newcomers have a wayward spouse. Most of the husbands are the nice-guy types, which I find interesting, but more on that subject later.
So, make yourself acquainted with the board and the folks who practically here. And please read those links Cadet gave you. They are very important for a newcomer. Feel free to ask questions. Most of all, read Divorce Remedy to get the principles behind this board.
I hope you will post often, b/c that's what it takes to get more responses. Oh, and don't worry, everyone doesn't post as long as I do.
Thank you for your response... I am sure she has feelings for the OM... I believe she loves me and chooses me, but I'm not sure if she can let go of those feelings and if she can it won't be easy. I think I have handled this very maturely and even empathized with her. I want to help her, but know it's up to her. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but my counselor and pastor have both told me I have handled this with more grace and understanding than a normal person would. I'm not a saint or a hero... I do love my wife and still see so much good in her. We still have so much good time together right now. I am making progress by being the best individual I can be, but it's slow. I am ok with that. I am considering the detach idea. But it's tough to find things to do or GAL when I feel like my kids need me most, since she is so distant right now. I agree that she built the guy up to be a perfect guy in her mind. He is married too and has 3 small kids... I'm guessing she's not envisioning a mixed family vacation with 6 kids in tow. Plus if he is cheating on his wife is he really that perfect of a guy? The hardest part is I want things... I want an apology.. I want her begging me to take her back. I want her swearing she will be the best wife ever... but I know those things won't happen. Or at least right now.
I am settling in for the long haul. My 3 kids are worth the effort, but even without them I think we have something great worth fighting for. She knows it too, but also knows she's in a bad place. Your comparison to addiction is the closest I can compare it to.
I am finding strength in God, knowing that I am going to be fine no matter what. I have a lot going for me. I have wonderful children. I have supportive friends and family. So I will be happy again some day. I would just rather it be with the person I chose to marry.
How long did it take for you to get over the other man? If you ever did? Did you get it back for your husband?
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hello GoodDad,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
You are so smart to recognize that you have been needy and pushy. Her lack of attention probably made you more needy and more pushy, which made her want to give you even less attention. It is a vicious cycle.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
The recovery stage is not fun for either of you. Stay focused on the knowledge that it will get better. Right now, her feelings for him are not the real deal. However, you can't afford to tell her how or what she feels, not unless you want a flogging. No woman appreciates a man who tries to tell her how she really feels.
It sounds as if you are trying, and it is great that you have others to support you. I'm sure your W does have a lot of good in her. Having an affair does not make a person bad, it just shows us how imperfect and vulnerable we are. I do encourage you to not make any references to yourself and how you have been good throughout all of this. Not that you have said that to her, but she still has traces of waywardness in her mindset (probably) and it may still be easy to spark some resentment. I remember seeing in my own husband, and some left behind husbands on the board, who had a twinge of self-righteousness, in my viewpoint. It doesn't mean that they did, or that you do........it just means that
that is easy for the WW to think she sees about others.
We still have so much good time together right now.
That's very important, too. Keeping her as preoccupied as you can, will help her get over the affects of the affair quicker. Of course, you don't want to smother her with your presence, either. There will be times that she will need some space. The period and actions that you take during the piecing back the relationship is not the same as when she was not trying to work with you to save the M. Although there may not be too much outward appearances of effort on her part, I think she's doing about all she can at the moment. Her biggest and hardest work right now is internal. Afterwards, she will be able, hopefully, to put more energy into the external.
The hardest part is I want things... I want an apology.. I want her begging me to take her back. I want her swearing she will be the best wife ever... but I know those things won't happen. Or at least right now.
Sure you do! Every husband wants it, but I doubt you will get it anytime soon. Well, you might, but really, her waiting means that when she does tell you.......it will probably be authentic. You see, it takes time for the WW to reach the place where she feels true remorse. I'm sure that could sound outrageous to a faithful H, but she has to go through a process that only time will produce. Time, and her putting effort into trying to find herself again. Every WW I have read about has a sense of justification, based on the resentment toward her H and whatever has happened in her past. It is to the degree that she is not capable of just swallowing it and getting her act together in just a few weeks. I mean, some wives may pretend and say all the right words, however, I think most won't. They have too much negative things going on internally. It is comparable to drowning and saving yourself before you can think about saving the other person. You are essentially wanting her to save you from drowning, and she can't b/c she's trying to save herself, first. That may not be a good illustration, but it's all I have at the moment.
I guess what I am saying is that I understand what you are saying you need. I get it. I am saying that you have to take care of yourself and get encouragement from others, b/c she can't take care of your needs right now. You probably think, "Yes she can. All she has to do is say she's sorry". But for
her, it is much more complicated. I can't explain it all in a few posts, but maybe you will learn enough about the mindset of a WW that it will help you to hold on a while longer. It took me a long time before I could go to my H, broken hearted for the damage I had caused. It took a long time for me to let go of my resentment of what he had done in our MR.
Btw, I have about five threads on the subject of WW's, if you want to read them. Go to Sandi's 37 Rules, and the first link is at the bottom of the rules. It is also listed in Cadets first post.
I am settling in for the long haul. My 3 kids are worth the effort, but even without them I think we have something great worth fighting for. She knows it too, but also knows she's in a bad place. Your comparison to addiction is the closest I can compare it to.
That is the way to think, and you will make it. You both will make it.
How ,ong did it take for me to get over the OM? I'm not sure. It is hard to explain. Whatever it was I felt for him didn't last that long. However, the addictive lure ate at me. I wanted the thrill. The OM had been my ego food. That's what I really craved! He wasn't even my type. But he would say all the right things to make me feel special. He gave me the attention I had not received in a long time. To turn my back on that and say. "No more",was hard. I had so many other issues I was dealing with, different perhaps from your W......but a WW has issues "before" the affair ever happens. Remember that part. Anyway, the first couple of months were really tough. It seems like it was about six months of no contact of any kind with the OM, and me coming here to the board every night until I couldn't keep my eyes open, before I could begin to feel somewhat like a human being again. But you can't base her length of time against mine. I just try to tell LBH'S that it takes longer than they think it will. She has a lot to do to get her stuff together before she can do much about the MR. Please, please, do not take this as discouragement. I don't beat around the bush when I give information. It is not to pull you down, but to prepare you by giving you this information.......and telling you that your M can be saved. Yes, my M was saved and we are still together. I will not lie and tell you it is quick and easy. It is not. It will be the hardest thing you've ever gone through, but you can make it. You believe in God, and you can get your strength from Him. Keep your eyes on Him.
Sandi2,
I greatly appreciate your advice. It's good to get the perspective from the other side. I know this is going to take time. I know everyone really thinks there marriage is special, but we really had/have something good. No one would say they saw this coming. I adore my wife. She knows that. I have been thinking about something recently... the fact that I have said I am needy. The only thing I have ever needed was to feel love and respected. I was pushing for more intimacy for a while, but other than that I ask for nothing. I do more than my share of work around the house and with the kids. She constantly needs my assistance on things. I am glad to help her whenever I can and do anything she asks. I just thought that's how marriages work. She has said she needs space... but I would challenge her to find any mother of 3 kids who gets more time out of the house away from the kids than she does. Even her friends can see this. I have pointed out what a great husband I am. I won't anymore, but I wanted her to know all that I do. I really think she has built up negative things in her mind that aren't there in real life.
Even now... she came back from counseling last night and said she told the counselor how I am doing so much better at giving her space... super... when are you going to talk about why you need space instead of reengaging with your family and husband?
I get this is a hard time for her, but part of me feels like she made this mess. She has some issues that are not related to our marriage and I think they are at the heart of the problem. The problem isn't me smothering or being needy. That came long after she started pulling away. She doesn't have many close friends. Her mom and brother approach relationships the same way. They have very few close friends. Her mom has one friend at most. They just don't get the idea that you get out of relationships what you put into them. They want to blame others for their faults. I am sure I have had some fault in this, but most of it has nothing to do with our marriage in my opinion. It's childhood attachment issues and trust, intimacy issues. And I'm not sure her current counselor is getting anywhere. She's all about feelings and letting my W set the pace and tone. I really want to go to one of her sessions with her and bring up some things. She tells everyone I am a great husband. Does she feel like she is a great wife? She says I smother her... can she think of another mom who gets more away time? She says she doesn't have a shopping problem... 30 G in credit card debt isn't a problem. She says I'm needy... I ask for nothing from her in day to day activity and create time for her to get out or take a bath or work out... She never does that for me. I never complain.
Ok... that was a lot of venting... right now things feel good. I don't think completely detaching is the best call right now since it seems like things are getting better. I am going to back way off though. I will only say I love you in response to her saying it. I will not reach out for contact, but will respond if she does. I will not bring up any conversation about our issues, but I will talk about it if she wants to, trying to say as little as possible (which is tough for me). I will give her all the space she needs, but be the best dad and most positive person I can be around her. Does that sound like a good plan? Feel free to make suggestions.
I made this jar of question strips. We were doing it for several nights and it was going well. But then I thought it was me forcing her to do something so I didn't do it 2 nights ago. I wasn't planning on doing it last night. But then she asked if we could do it. It's crazy how much we are learning about each other through it. We lay in bed and answer the questions... one for each of us and one we both answer... I might ask her if we can start looking at each other when we talk about them. Is that weird?
She is trying I think. But I don't think she realizes how bad it hurts when she says I'm going to meet a friend for an hour and then comes home 2 hours later. I know she was with her friend (because I asked her husband), but that stuff hurts. Or when she goes shopping for 3 hours to get a break. The good news is I am really making up for a crabby summer with my kids with tons of great activities... I'm super dad right now and I'm loving it.
I'm not quitting. I don't think she is either. It's just at some point I hope the problems we are addressing are the real problems rather than what my "issues" are. There is something deep inside of her that is causing her to detach from her life at times. That is what needs to be fixed.
Am I wrong in thinking that instead of her pulling away and taking breaks that reengaging might help her more. Especially with the kids. Forget what she thinks about me at this point... do some fun stuff with the kids and maybe she will start getting good feelings.
Being a mother of 3 kids is not easy. It takes work... but anyone who gives it their all knows that the rewards out weigh the hardships... I just wish she could give it a go.
It's just at some point I hope the problems we are addressing are the real problems rather than what my "issues" are.
There is something deep inside of her that is causing her to detach from her life at times.
That is what needs to be fixed.
This may be true however YOU didnt break her and YOU can not FIX her.
She has to FIX herself, giving her space is taking the FOCUS off of YOU and she either will look at herself or not.
LET GO - you can not speed this up but you can slow it down by holding on and begging, pleading, bargaining, and pursuing.
A couple questions...
Things are going pretty well right now. Lots of positive and she seems to be slowly coming around. She seems happier with the kids and more positive with me. Maybe it's fake at times, but that's okay knowing she is trying to be positive.
I am backing off on several things... but do I try to goals part of the DR program or wait? She might be open to them. She might not.
Here are my goals... let me know what you think?
1. Write me a letter... of any kid, apology, complaint, feelings about us, thoughts on the future, things you like and dislike about us, a plan for moving forward... just put some thoughts in writing for me.
2. Participate in a family activity 2 times a week. Playing games, going skiing, an art project, reading a book...
3. Pray with me once in a while... nit every night but once in a while (we are not holy roller type so this will be awkward to start, but we both were raised going to church and both feel God has to be a bigger part of our life moving forward)
Thoughts on those goals?
Also, I started the 40 day love dare and I am on day 15... Do I stop doing that... I love the readings and wish she could read them too. I will continue to read it at the very least. But should I keep doing the dares... or maybe keep doing the dares unless they seem like they would be too pushy for her at this point?
Would it help her to read about WWS? Maybe I could get my pastor to give her info on it. Coming from me it would be bad. Would it help her to be aware of that?
I wish Sandi2 or others who have been through what she has could talk to her and offer her help from personal experience. She is almost insisting on getting through this on her own.
Make your goals about YOU.
Not about what she will DO.
Like
I will walk a mile every day.
I will give her space.
I will take the kids to an activity.
NO do not share DB with her!
I hear you... I can let go. It won't be easy though. I just wish someone... counselor or her brother who she respects would say wake up. Start looking deep inside yourself... I know... I know... I can't control it.
It makes sense about having goals about me, but the book made it seem like you should set them for things you want your spouse to do that were measurable. Did I miss read this?
So how about these?
Give her all the space she needs.
Do not question her about relationship issues.
Keep busy doing great things with the kids.
Focus on working out and gaining confidence mentally.
So how about these?
Give her all the space she needs.
Do not question her about relationship issues.
Keep busy doing great things with the kids.
Focus on working out and gaining confidence mentally.
I think these are a better start,
especially if they are 180's of what you have been doing.
Also, I work out in our basement... do I get into playing games where I work out at a gym and possibly get her thinking I'm working out near girls that are in shape and maybe she should be worried or is that silliness. I do think it would be good for me to get out of the house more, but it already seems like we are never home with all the activities are kids have going.
I am willing to be patient and do whatever... but I have to say it really [censored] that I feel like she screwed up bad, but I am the one making the changes and going through the most effort of fixing things and that only reinforces to her that this was my fault in some way. That's just more venting.
I do think it would be good for me to get out of the house more
Yes try to get out.
It will be good for you.
Of course you will need to work it around the kids schedules.
Keep venting here - we dont mind.
So the 180 is the key?
The good things I'm doing with the kids is not a 180, but I think it attractive to her and it's good for me and the kids.
Not saying I love you and acting like I don't care as much what she is doing seems to be working after 1 day. I got more texts from her yesterday than I have in a long time. I also got a hug out of no where this morning. I haven't been trying to touch her in bed either so I'm assuming she notices that since I am a touchy person.
The good news is that I run at a real high stress level normally and have general anxiety so this situation is bringing out the worst in me in ways, but also the best in me because I'm learning to fight through things. Like what is the worst that can happen... she can leave... can I handle that... yes. But it's hard trying to put on a happy face every day. Especially now with the added complication of having to tell my sick father that this weekend that we want to remove him from his home and put him in a care facility. I'm not looking for sympathy, but damn.... life isn't easy.
I do appreciate no one beating me up yet. I am aware that trusting her on some levels sets me up to be burned. I am prepared to deal with that if it happens. I almost feel like I can't be hurt any worse than I have been so the only place to go is up. My biggest hurdle will be patience and not over-reacting to good signs (and slipping back into old habits.)
So what do you know about love?
Try reading the book the five love languages.
Sounds like yours in physical touch.
And you equate that with love.
I am much the same way so I understand.
What do you think you wifes LL is?
Maybe touch is last on her list.
Ok... I'm on a roll. sorry... it's nice to have some people to talk to who don't know me.
I get I need to pull back... here's a question... every Friday we meet for lunch. I really enjoy the time and so does she (I think). We DO NOT talk about anything serious. She just texted asking if we could do lunch. I said yes, because I do think it's good for us. But should I avoid that in the future? I'm not sure where to draw the line. She needs space, but reminders that we are good together can't hurt can they?
I really think just me not touching her at night and not saying ILU all the time will be a good start. Add that to me being super positive and great with the kids and I think those things will be very encouraging to her.
The other night we were working on a project for our daughters preschool class together. She was using the iron and completely ruined the finish on our nice dinning room table. I'm not the type to get upset... so I just said.. hey, it's a table... it can be fixed... compared to having to deal with my dad's dementia today this is nothing. She seemed to appreciate it.
WE read the book. Or at least I did and she read part. I thought I'd be touch for sure. Even though I scored very high there I was highest in positive affirmation. That makes sense to me too. I just need to know she believes in me and loves me. It goes back to not getting that from my dad probably. Touch is high because it is what I always got from my mom who died of cancer 3 years ago. I was very close to her and went to every appointment with her since my dad wasn't in the health to do so. I have a great story of their love to share for another time. How it was right down to the end.
Anyway... touch was lowest on her list for sure. The rest were all pretty even... so she likes everything expect for touch... perfect.
OK so what is her LL then - is she speaking it to you now at all?
Making you dinner or doing anything that you might not be hearing?
As for what do I know about love.... From everything I have read about it lately it seems like Love is simply choosing to love another person in spite of their imperfections and put their needs at an equal level to your own. It's not a happy feeling or magic... Love is something we choose to give to others and choose to accept from others.
That's part of our problem... she wants to feel happy. She wants to feel passion...but she's waiting around to feel it instead of taking actions to feel it.
I want to be in shape... maybe I should wait around until I'm really ready to start working out or eating right... or I should get off my butt and start working out and eating better which will get me where I want to be and get me to feel how I want to feel.
Sorry I have so much to say today... It's a Friday so slow day at work.
She's trying for sure. She is sending me a text every morning saying something nice and that she loves me. She is trying to reach over and touch me at night (hand on my chest or grab my hand)... She is offering to do dishes. She bought me some clothes the other day. No doubt she is trying. She's opening up some through our question jar at night... so I have to completely do a 180 when I'm seeing lots of good.
I have also stopped telling her how beautiful she is every day. She is really stunning at times so it's hard for me to not tell her that.
Oh.. and she did make dinner from scratch the other night... it was really good. Again... I'm trying not to over react.... I'm trying to be patient. I believe we will get through this... I just want to make sure we don't go back to the way we were. I want to be better.
Just keep your expectations low.
This is a marathon not a sprint and
nothing will be resolved quickly.
Love is something we choose to give to others and choose to accept from others.
Or actions we take to show love, such as choosing to love someone by walking away from an unproductive argument.
She wants to feel passion...but she's waiting around to feel it instead of taking actions to feel it.
Because she doesn't know what real Love is. Passion comes and goes.
I'm not even going to try and compete with Cadet and sandi. They have a much greater amount of experience here than I, and you should take heart of all their words. I just want to throw in some thoughts, because I've been in your shoes.
SLOW DOWN. I read all of your posts so far, and I really get the sense you are pushing, even after getting some insight into the recovering WW's mindset. She is on her own schedule, and there are limited things you can do. Be calm, give her space, create a loving environment without expectations, and work on yourself.
Remember, you contributed to this sitch just like she did. Whether it was the angry summer or not showing enough affection or whatever it may be, you had an impact on how she felt in the MR that contributed to her going into an EA. If I hadn't realized this for myself and with help from here, I would not be recovering my marriage.
Work the 180s/GAL. I get the guilt. During my most stressful times at work, I was overly harsh with my kid when I was home. I felt tremendous guilt. Like you my child became my savior. However, I bordered on losing myself to him, but how my W did in the beginning. Put some time directly into you, independent of the kids, and they will still feel the benefit.
Good point on walking away from an unproductive argument. We really aren't arguing though. It's been very peaceful. I haven't been angry and when I have been I have controlled it. I get more anxiety than anything.. fearing reconnection with OM.
I have lots of strengths but patience is not one of them. It's a new skill I'm hoping to learn quickly.
I have been backing off a lot and she has acknowledged it. I just could use specifics on what that looks like. With things heading in the right direction I don't want to screw it up.
Also... I'm waiting... I'm being patient... but will there ever be a point where we can talk about some issues or concerns I have... I feel like... she needs space... Great... here you go. I have some needs too... like not being at the bottom of the priority list.
When can we talk about what mature love is and looks like and how marriage takes work and a choice every day to love the other person. Part of me feels like I'm stuck in the same boat... catering to her needs. I guess I'll leave that for couples counseling.
Ok.. so I wish I would have come to this place long ago... I just read some of Sandi's ideas on how I should make her feel the loss of our M and me. Wish I did that right from the start...
So the question is what do I do now? Things are going well, but it could be an act on her part. She has done it before. If I stop making her lunch and other normal things I do I think she will go backwards or it would just be obvious.
I can GAL for sure... get out more on my own.
I can end ILUs and any physical contact.
We still are in the same bed... do I go sleep on the couch occasionally just saying I wasn't comfortable? Kind of tough to kick her out now.
I won't email, or text or call unless it's an absolute must.
Reading marriage books in front of her will stop for sure too.
I can just do less around the house... leave the dishes or laundry.
I won't ask her about what she is doing.
Is that enough for now? If not what do I do? Specifically?
Another fun things is its starting to spread around are small town. Awesome. A couple friends have asked me about it. I'm not sure what to say... I just say we are in a rough patch and working on somethings...
What do I do if she wants to go out with a gf for a drink? Not care? Tell her I have plans already?
Sorry for so many questions.
Question for Sandi.... or any WW...
When you finally came out of it did you realize how much you did love your husband or did that take time to figure out?
I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes, but it would be nice to know I might eventually get someone back that loves me and sees the good in me.
Your W is doing so much better than I did.......I can't even begin to describe. Perhaps you are being like you have always been in your interactions with her. Maybe b/c she is not productive, motivated, energetic, or driven as you, it causes you to have a tendency to get behind her and try to turn her focus on things and push her toward them. I know the frustration in having a personality like yours and living with a person who has a phlegmatic temperament. I had two in my family (husband and daughter) and they nearly drove me nuts before I finally learned to stop doing what I was doing and let them handle things in their own way. They truly were opposite from me, and no matter how hard I tried, I could not make them like me!
If my H had done all the work you have done since your W's EA..........I would have been blown away. Instead, I saw nothing in him. On the other hand, looking from the viewpoint of the WW, I can see how you may be placing emotional pressure on her. As I said, your way is not hers. I get you.......I really do! However, I think as difficult as it may be for you, you need to try to be more relaxed. I think people like you and I seem intense to our spouses. We wear them out just watches us work so hard.
The thing we hate (slowing down) is really what she needs, at the moment. She may admire how you are driven to make the very most of a situation, but she's just made in that way. She actually has to have the time and operate at a slower pace. I think some of our pushing actually slows them down at times. With her being the WW, she may not handle the emotional pressure to produce more action as a mother and wife. I don't know this for certain, and you know your wife. I am simply giving the viewpoint from the WW, and trying to think how I would have been if I was turned more like her.
Perhaps she truly needs more alone time, in order to deal with her responsibilities as a mother of three and a wife of a driven man. Maybe this is when she regroups. I do think, however, the more you do for her......the more dependent she will be on you. So although she may need your assistance, discipline yourself to not do it all, or to it so she doesn't have it to do.
When I was going through the period following the affair, the last thing I wanted was showing physical affection to my H. I had to have time to mentally and emotionally shift from the other man to my husband. If he had been telling me he loved several times a day, or that I was beautiful, or trying to touch me in bed..........I probably would have took off running in an attempt to escape the feeling of being emotionally smothered. And this may feel very deflating to you, b/c you've probably read or heard how most females crave what you've been doing. Timing is extremely important, and the older I get, the more importance I see in good timing. My husband and I have not had a sense of good timing in our MR, and unfortunately, have suffered repercussions. So I hope you can get a sense for the right time for things with your wife.
Balance is also critical for the betrayed H. You feel you are carrying the major weight of the family and the MR, b/c it doesn't appear that your W could.....or maybe, would, if you didn't do it. You are working so hard to your part and her part, too. Whenever we try too hard, or we try to do the work of the other person......things get out of balance and becomes unhealthy. Perhaps your MR has experienced this unhealthy or unbalanced weight of responsibility, or effort, since your kids were born. Perhaps your W has become a bit spoiled. Grown women can become spoiled just like children. The more spoiled, the greater her sense of entitlement grows. All of this can come from an unbalanced production of effort. You do the work around the house. You spend quality time with the kids and go overboard in showing them wonderful and fun activities. You carry the load of parental responsibility. Plus, you are carrying the load of piecing the marriage back together. It sounds as if you not only have become super dad, but super husband, as well. Sounds good on paper, but the results are not that great. My advice is to find balance in what you are doing, before you burn out....and burn down the MR. Don't go to the extreme the other direction, which a lot of BH's tend to do in attempts of finding balance.
I advise you tell her ILY only once a day. Tell her ILY when you say good-bye or good night. That way, she won't feel like you are watching so closely to see how she responds. It does put pressure on the WW.
Try not to always be the one to initiate physical affection. It is better to give her more non sexual touches throughout the day/evening. Touching the small of her back, her arm, shoulder, etc. Make it a natural thing and not as though you are glaring at her to see what she does. I think most women need a buildup to more sexual touching. And a WW needs time before she's ready to be intimate with her H.
Give her compliments about other things, besides just her looks. I mean, you can tell her she's beautiful, but don't overkill.
Try not to question her about how she spends her time. You don't want to sound as if you are going over a honey-do list with her. You don't want to act as if you are an employer. (Not that you do, just saying in case).
Question for Sandi.... or any WW...
When you finally came out of it did you realize how much you did love your husband or did that take time to figure out?
I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes, but it would be nice to know I might eventually get someone back that loves me and sees the good in me.
Since there aren't many WW's around here, I will respond to your question. Once I felt remorse for what I had done to my H, then my other feelings for him started to come back. I just had so many years of resentment that that blocked the remorse, and the lack of remorse blocked the loving feelings for him.
Yes, it took time. Too much time, I'm ashamed to say. If he had not been the good natured man that he is, he probably would have given up on me. Plus, you have to realize that I was getting help from the board, too. Not very many waywards come to the DB board. I don't know where I'd be, if not for the people who helped me.
Wow... Sandi... I think I have learned more from you just today than I have learned in all of my reading. You should write a book.
You have us pretty much pegged. I am overboard or obsessive in nature. She is the opposite. Loves sleeping in and loves vacations. In the last few years I have taken over doing everything around the house and with the kids... I kept thinking if she had less stresses in life she would be happier and I don't mind doing work. I'm wired that way. I have talked with my counselor about letter her do more of the work and how I NEED to do that. It's not that she won't it's just that I do it before she gets a chance... It's nothing for me to get the kids to clean the bathrooms (and touch up after), do the laundry, vacuum, clean the kitchen, then play video games with my boys and read books to my daughter... And I have zero resentment for doing any of it. I probably have spoiled her. Part of our money problems are because I always say, go ahead, buy it... I'll make some extra money doing some extra jobs. We both have very good jobs and I find myself doing side jobs to make extra money that I never spend on myself.
That's why it's tough feeling so betrayed after all I have done... Plus I take care of myself, being in good shape and looking nice all the time. I can go out to the bar and have women approach me on a regular basis.
I swear I'm not full of myself... I am really a humble person. Hard to believe I know... I would never say these things to anyone in person, but I won't sell myself short here. I bring a lot to the table... but I need to STOP doing everything and start getting out and doing stuff for myself. But I have no idea what I want to do. In the summer it's easy. I love to golf. In the winter it's another story.
I'm not saying I deserve this... I grew up Catholic, but stopped going to church after I got married because my wife was Christian, but not Catholic... so we chose nothing. A mistake in my mind now. I'm not a holy roller but if I shared some of the experiences I have had where God has tried to reach out to me you would think I would be making them up. Long story short, my mom had cancer a few years ago... I went to every apt with her. It was sad watching her die. No way I could have been as strong as I was on my own. God helped me through that. I was close to Him at that time... but then life got easy and I lost sight of him again. So if feels like He hit me with the ultimate wake up call here. I had made my W my God... I put her on a pedestal so high she would have had to look down to see God. Now I realize how bad that was for me.
So, I'm looking at this as a chance to get my priorities right. God is first. Then I need to make sure I am the best person I can be. Then my marriage. Then my kids. I can't fix my marriage now so I'm working on my relationship with God and being the best person I can be. It's working most days. Other days Xanax does the job.
GoodDad, if you haven't already, look up "parent/child" or "underachiever/overachiver" dynamic. Sounds like what you had going on there as did I.
Ok... So I have a question. Again. I'm supposed to be detaching. Things having been going pretty good with my W. It was 4 weeks ago that she said she ended things with OM. I have no reason to believe she is lying but really no reason to trust her either. The OM lives 3 hours away. we have been trying to sell some concert tickets online. Yesterday right in front of me she got a text about them and arranged the sale. We have done this in the past with tickets many times. The problem is she planned to drive to the large city area where the OM lives. My W grandpa is a nursing home there too and she is super close with him and has been saying she needs to go see him. She says it will be a good chance to see him. So here's my question. Will she be seeing her grandpa? Yes. Will she be selling the tickets? Yes. Will she take the chance to meet up with the OM? I have no idea.
Do I express my concerns? Act like I don't care? Encourage her brother to go when I see him today? Encourage her to take one of our kids?
I know I can't stop her but the cut off is still so recent. Plus I can't stand that she isn't acting like... Hey I know this might bother you but...
What do I do?
I know I wouldnt express concerns because I could see that turning into a- you dont trust me, you never will trust me, blah blah etc etc fight.
You could mention to her brother she is going to see gpa today but I wouldnt push him too much into going because it will be obvious that you just dont want her to go alone.
Try to let it go. It will be hard. It will suck. Having my WAH go out overnight to god knows where with who knows and ME HAVING NO IDEA. I JUST SMILE and say have fun. BYE! Hardest thing in the world but it is part of my 180s for myself. To be trusting until I have solid proof not to be.
Any one else have thoughts on me asking about trip to city or should I just act like I don't care.
It's not that you act like you don't care. It's part of being "lovingly detached". Your wife can go an visit with or without your permission or concerns. Let her do so.
I'm going to tell you from my own personal experience, you
cannot compete with an OM/AP until you've made significant, consistent, and noticeable changes.
Rednail nailed it (*giggle*) when she said:
Having my WAH go out overnight to god knows where with who knows and ME HAVING NO IDEA. I JUST SMILE and say have fun. BYE!
PMA and distancing instead of overly concerned and pursuing.
Oh! And do not, I repeat, do not bring her family into it. That's dangerous territory.
Update... So I haven't mentioned the trip. Still stressing about it big time. Think we are close to getting away from OM and would hate to see slip up. Know I have zero control.
There was interesting dust up with her and once BF. Lots of lies hurt her friendships too. Lots of couple friends who are real disappointed. As of now we don't get invited to stuff for good reason. Last night she was bummed we didn't get asked to join them for a night out. I said, can you blame them. Told her it [censored] I lost my close group of friends I'm a way too. She agreed. Later a text battle with BF about lies. W broke down after saying I had no idea how many people I was hurting. It liked seeing her in a little pain.
She was extra cuddly in bed but I gave little back. I reassured her all of our fiends would welcome us back in time if she wanted that but it was up to her since she made the mess. She agreed.
Ugh... So hard to detach when I know she is in a bad place and showing so much good. I have backed way off on contact and ILUs. Still being kind and trying to b confident.
Wish she would say... I know my trip will stress u out but I swear on our kids you have nothing to worry about. Or at least reciognize that it will be tough for me. I'm still planning on saying have a safe trip. Tell your grandpa hi. And that's it. Easier said than done. What if she brings up me being anxious. Do I lie and say I'm not? Definitely be a Xanax day tomorrow.
Not looking for sympathy but just had talk with my dad yesterday about putting him in a nursing home. Now gave to get him moved. He's deteriorating fast which [censored] to see. So my stress level is through the roof and I have to act confident. No problem
You can do it. What you're thinking of saying in that last post is great. None of the negatives are in it, and it shows PMA.
I see you have little control over your WW.
However, you have a boundary on this?
If so state it and the consequences, be prepared to reinforce.
Ask her to confirm she understands your boundary and the consequences.
As in "you are going to xyz, I know that ex OM lives there. The consequence of you meeting him will be Abc. Please confirm to me that you understand this"
Just my view
Hugs
V
So I can see both sides... Say to her... Enjoy your day blah blah
Or say you know what happens if u meet up.
But there is no way I would know if she does.
Of course you won't know.
But the spoken boundary is there. On OM it's ok not to trust.
If WW says "you don't trust me"
Tell the truth " I want to trust you. It is a little early yet to let go of my reservations on OM. I am entitled to my feelings on this and I am trusting you with those"
Then no arguing or explaining. "That's all I need to say"
Don't mention it again
My view
V
You can say enjoy your day too!
V
Regarding her trip to the city and the possibility she could meet with the OM, do the two of you have a plan as to now she can avoid these types of opportunities that could tempt her to break her NC with the OM?
It is comparable to affair proofing your M. For a couple to believe their M is so strong that there is no need for an affair-proof plan, is very unwise. Even if there has never been any hint of looking at another person, a couple should agree upon certain actions being in place that assures the M will be void of infidelity. With that said, whenever there has been any type of an A in a M, you want to reinforce support back to a healthy relationship again.
Are the two of you discussing ways to give her support whenever there could be obvious opportunity to contact her OM?
No we haven't. What would be some examples be?
GoodDad,
You are doing great. I need to read your thread from the beginning. I feel like I am a lot like you. My sitch is different but see many similarities. Hope to support you as best I can!
Okay, help me understand clearly here. Are the two of you attending marriage counseling together, or each of you seeing individual counselors?
Did you know about transparency plans and present it to your W, or is this something she volunteered to do?
Do both of agree that you are piecing the marriage back together, or does she say she'll try and see how things go?
How soon till she goes to see her grandfather?
I had to go back to review some, b/c I was thinking she had been working on the M longer, but I noticed she has been in NC for only four weeks. That is usually the hardest time. If she breaks her NC, she'll have to start all over again.
You might want to get Squiggy's advice about how to handle this situation.
We are both seeing going to counseling. Individually and couples. I thought we were working on things and improving and then 4 weeks ago I found she was still in contact. We had a big discussion and I asked her to leave for the night because I could n't be around her. She cam back the next day and told me that she had officially broken it off with the other guy. She said she was sad about it, but knew she wanted a life with me and there was no future with him. She showed more emotion on that day than she ever has.
Not sure what a transparency plan is, but I have access to phone, email, and tracking on her phone... but emails can be deleted and should could leave her phone in the car. Plus every time I check I feel crazy anxiety.
She is making efforts in some ways... she is reaching out and touching me more in bed (non sexual) and it sounds like she is finally opening up to her counselor.
She went to the city today. She brought it up last night and said she turned on the tracking app on her phone so I can check where she is at all times. She told me her exact plans and said she knew I would be stressed. I believe she is selling the tickets. I believe she will meet with her Grandpa... she will send a pic with him I'm sure.
This morning she could tell I was very anxious. I told her calmly that I am very anxious. I told her I want to believe her, but I am not to the point where I can without doubts. She said she completely understands, but it is over and I have nothing to worry about. She sent me a nice text saying that she loves me and appreciates me being open to her this morning and trusting her to do. All sounds good, but I still have doubts.
I agree that if she reconnects it will set us way back. But there is no way I will know if she does. So I will move forward doing the best that I can. Staying positive. I do believe she wants me and our life, but part of her really liked what she got from the OM. Only time will tell.
I will not bug her with texts today. I'm sure she will text me quite a bit. Bottom line is I still love my wife. I will not say breaking the NC ends our marriage but it will dramatically change things. She will be asked to move out until she can figure her crap out. I was a mess for a long time, but I feel strong now. Finances are not an issue. The kids adore me. Our friends will all support me. I think my life would be best with her in it (if she pulls her head out of the fog) but I am prepared to move forward without her.
She has NEVER said she doesn't love me, or that she's not in love with me, or that she needs a break... She continues to say I want you and our marriage and our family and we both have lots of work to do to fix things.
Okay, thanks for answering my questions. When you say you have access to her phone, emails, etc., are you saying that she knows you are looking at her activity or are you saying you have to snoop to see what she's doing? I'm just wanting to make sure I'm understanding everything correctly.
You can make the transparency plan the way you need it to be to help you feel more secure in the MR. It is not for you alone, but for your W, as well. I may have already said something about this, but it does help the WW stay on the straight & narrow whenever she knows she's being watched.
Having access to her phone, etc., is one way to be transparent. I think having discussions before an event actually happens would help. If she seems willing to talk about the transparency, and it appears that she is trying. This might be a good time to approach the subject about what to do to give her the extra support she may need in the future, if she's ever tempted.
When she gets home and the time feels right, you may tell her how much you appreciate her giving you reassurance when she went to see her grandfather. Tell her that you think it would be difficult for anyone withdrawing from an A. And that you have given thought to perhaps having some type of plan as to how to draw extra support/encouragement whenever there's a possibility of her running into OM, as a way to help her as well as give you added assurance. Then wait and see how she responds to this suggestion. If she seems to think it's you wanting to pin her down or control her, then you may need to put it on the back burner for a few days. Timing is important.
If she goes for it, then the two of you can decide what to do that would work for you. Her sending you a photo will be great. It proves she is where she said she would be. Having something in place for those times she's feeling weak would be helpful for her. Maybe she can think of something else that would give her strength whenever she feels really drawn to contact OM.
I agree with all sandi said. You are in my shoes 4 months or so ago trying to bring this all back together. July-September '15 were filled with anxiety about all aspects of a recovering WAW and MR. Every time she picked up her phone...
What I did for transparency was I made it completely clear to my wife through boundaries what I expected from her. In my sitch, the worst offender was the &$*%ing phone and #*&*ing social media. She knew that I would not let her back into the home or my life, beyond being co-parents to S6, if she did not respect that part of transparency. The first weekend she moved back, which I so slickly made the Retrouvaille weekend, I had access to phone and social media any time I chose. I've only checked a couple times. You may need more. The important thing is that you make them non-negotiable.
That being said, what is it that you absolutely, at a minimum, and reasonably require for transparency? I say minimum, because if you set the bar too high, it will be impossible for her to meet, and this is about the two of you coming back to the marriage. If a photo with grandpa is good enough, so be it. If you need the GPS, then request it. You decide what will help you trust.
I agree that if she reconnects it will set us way back. But there is no way I will know if she does. So I will move forward doing the best that I can. Staying positive.
Trust is the hardest thing for you to do right now. I totally understand that. I quoted this because you said the right thing - move forward with PMA. That is all you have control of.
Now here is the part that is great to focus on and to really think about. It seems like your wife is taking the
actions to earn back your trust and return to the MR. She's turning on her phone tracking, planning to send you texts, taking photos as proof, giving you access to electronic media, validating you, etc. Much like we have to do consistent change and actions, so does the wayward spouse. These are the things you need to keep looking for.
Thank you for your help and support. It has been a weird day... I'm stressed but feel stronger than I would have a month or 2 ago. I suppose that's a good sign. But anxiety is high for sure. I have received several texts from her already. I try to keep my responses short and positive. She asked how my day was going and I said awesome with a winking face. She responded... I love you. Now I just got a pic of grandpa... who I adore btw. Great man. Wish he knew... he would talk some sense into her.
He's been a father figure to her.
I like the idea of having a positive talk when she gets home. And recognizing that it probably hasn't been easy for her to end things. I have been good about saying that. I know it's not easy for her.
I'm so torn... I know she wants our life... but I know she is scared we will never have passion or spark... I wish she would read more and look inside herself more and learn about more mature love and how we can have all we want. Ugh. I know we are a ways from that... I just need her to be strong and get over the OM. Call me Mr. Positive though.
Good thing I have an apt with my therapist tonight. I always feel better after that. Then I will take the kids out to a place mom wouldn't be interested in going to like the Chinese buffet and they will love that.. I'm trying to look for the good in the day.
No question this will be one of those days where there is one set of footprints in the sand and they won't be mine.
To be honest, I think things are going pretty well for you right now. My advice...don't pick at it.
Yeah, that's great advice too. I'll just stick with being Mr. Positive and super dad. Seems to be what she likes to see the best. I did leave all the laundry for her this weekend. She did it all of it like it was no big deal. I need to let her do more. It will be better for both of us. Plus I've backed way off on the ILUs and attempts to hug or cuddle. I'm a slow learner.
Agree with Tx. She is taking the steps. You keep the road paved, take your anxiety out here and in IC, and keep those kids happy and smiling. Maybe you could plan some low-key, stree-free activity for when she returns? Some sort of a "I knew we'd be ok" thing. Let her return with your arms open.
She will learn about love in time. I don't know if she would be up for it, but I would recommend Retrouvaille once you guys get a little bit more successes under your belt. It has a whole section devoted to mature love and how to create passion.
Great idea on the stress free activity... any suggestions... I might just give her time to take a bath... she likes that and would appreciate that. I'd offer to join her but that would probably not be as appealing to her.
Assuming Retrouvaille is a book?
I've read so many books and a couple I would love for her to read, but I'm not pushing for any of that until she is ready. We have a jar with questions that we draw from every night and she seems to be enjoying that. Only takes us like 5 minutes and its positive talk where we surprising learn new stuff about each other all of the time.
Ok... you guys are great... I'm real upbeat rather than dwelling on the worst case scenario. I haven't been real productive at work, but I didn't expect to be anyway today.
If Retrouvaille is a book I couldn't find it online.... might need an author...
Going back to something Sandi asked... She knows I have access to her phone, email... she no longer has a pass code on her phone. She could have an alternate web email, but there have been no record of calls or texts. I'm not crazy but I did search her car and purse the other day looking for a prepaid phone or something like that. I found nothing. I can't keep checking though. I feel like I'm going to have a stroke when I do.
If Retrouvaille is a book I couldn't find it online.... might need an author...
Its not a book.
An activity
Yes, Retrouvaille is a program that starts with a weekend followed by post sessions. They have a website you can look up, and it's been discussed on these forums (where I learned about it) many times before.
I feel like I'm going to have a stroke when I do.
You just might. I can't tell you exactly when it is safe or best for you to start letting go of the fear, but it is something you need to work through. It's part of keeping the road smooth. If she thinks you are going to constantly hold the A over her head, she will never be 100% back in the MR.
GoodDad, I truly hope this works out well for you. There seems to be a lot of hope in your sitch. Do not stop, even for one second, DBing the hell out of your sitch. It'll be worth it in the end. I promise.
Some of you have followed my story... In short... W had EA and as far as I know it's been over for 4 weeks. She says she loves me and wants our marriage to work. I know she feels emotionally detached from me, but still sees all the good in me and our life and wishes she felt more of a connection. She continues to say there has been no contact (I don't ask often). She is showing signs of affection (non sexual) and says she feels terrible for how I am feeling, knowing she caused it.
I'm not sure whether to believe that she has cut things off. There are always ways to be in contact if she wanted. Nothing on phone records, nothing obvious on emails (but that can be deleted)... seems to be interested in keeping me posted on her actions.
Our counselor said she's either a great liar or that she is sincere about loving me and wanting our marriage to work. I just cant get over the fact that there were so many lies. I woke up in a cold sweat last night with crazy anxiety. I got up and took something to relax... she asked if I was ok. I wanted to say yep... I'm good... but I said no. She asked what's up. I said I just had a dream about your brother telling me you were still in contact and it seemed very real. She said she has not been in contact and tried to comfort me. I asked if it was getting easier and she said yes. I want to believe her so bad. I seem to ignore some of the positive things she does and read into tiny things she says. I hate the paranoia felling.
The problem is I don't know what is my best course of action...
My counselor says just keep showing her your best. That she feels smothered and forced to show me love, when she should want to feel like she is showing me love freely. She hasn't read any books, or really looked into much, or into herself as to why things happened.
I am venting today because I keep hearing all the things I can do to win her love back and to be more attractive... but I did't have the A. I have to act happy and confident when I don't feel either of those things. Some days I am strong, but today I feel exhausted. Why do I feel like I am having to do the lions share of the work? I am sure ending the A is not easy for her. She does do small things. I'm not even sure what she could do that would make me feel better.
So what do I do? Detach more when things seem to be heading in the right direction... Keep doing what I'm doing (staying positive and being happy)? Can I ask her to do anything at this point? Or do I just ride out her positive attitude and be thankful for the way she is acting.
I know I need to get out and do something. Maybe join a gym. I work out at home now. I just don't feel social at all.
I'm just wore out today. Putting my dad in a nursing home this week so add that stress to my crazy life. Hard to feel like the fight is worth fighting at times.
I need to find strength in God. The days I do that seem to go a lot better than the days I try to handle it on my own.
Any advice or encouragement would really be welcome today. What would I do according to DBing specifically?
Ok... I know I just made a long post but I'm not sure if I'm clear where I am at. Am I at the, I know what I want, ask for what I want stage? Do I set some goals? Or am doing the 180? Or both?
I was told earlier to set goals for myself, but the book makes it sounds like you set small goals for your spouse that are measurable and watch for progress.
I would love for her to write me some kind of letter... put some thoughts on paper... apology, feelings, doubts, concerns, hopes, dreams... anything.. I just want her to think about those things.
I would love for her to reengage in our family life, instead of being so detached.
Those would be a couple big things. Can I ask for those? Or should I be doing a 180 and backing way off for a while.
My counselor seems to think just giving her time and space will help her. But he also says it's a delicate balance where she still needs to know I love her. Seems simple enough. ugh.
So if she is saying postive things... Saying she wants our marriage... but nothing real specific... can I ask something of her? I would love to do some bonding activities but she might not be ready. Can I express that to her... Hey, I love what you are doing and that is enough for now, but when you are ready I would like to try some things to get us closer? IDK what to do.
Number 1 thing I know I need to do is relax and focus on me... I get that. I am trying. But is that enough for now? I hate that I feel like I'm playing a game. I love my wife. I would do anything for her. Why does it have to be so complicated? Ugh.
Or should I be doing a 180 and backing way off for a while.
I agree with your counselor, back off.
Will merge this with your thread.
Please stick to one thread until 100 posts.
You are at 61 right now.
I don't have much time to respond right now, because I have someone coming into my office shortly.
You are correct. You need to relax and focus on you. It is going to be complicated, because it is not like a computer program or game with set rules. Affairs of the heart and human relationships are murky, messy things with entirely too many factors to categorize, accurately predict, or garner specific responses. Work on what you have control over.
Now, an example of this is to answer the other questions you are struggling with. First, stop trying to push your wife. Even if you are not actively doing it IRL, you ARE doing it here, and that could bleed over to RL. My advice, given the current state of your R, is to LEAD her back to the family and the MR with no pressure. Remember the Valentine's idea? That's a great example. It's family oriented, you get to show your best side, and it brings you all together to show her what life can be like. Think of activities you can do together that are the foundation of relationships, something even as simple as washing the dishes together, cooking together, taking the kids somewhere.
Ok... this is the reassurance I need... I am seeing positive things from her. I do know she needs time. I'm just a stubborn fixer. Doing things for others is so natural for me. Protecting herself is so natural for her. Both related to upbringing.
I will back off and be patient. I just need to hear it from someone other than the crazy voice in my head.
Speaking of that? People say trust your gut. How can I tell the difference between what my gut is saying and what my crazy head is saying? I know if I listened to my crazy head I would have done lots of dumb things.
Thanks again... I can get through today and that's the plan.
Btw... what's the deal with 100 posts?
Client is late. Good thing for you
Put the fixer to the side. Seriously, stop it! Hard thing to do, I know, but it'll cause you many problems. She has her own battles to face.
In my experience, the difference between gut and crazytown is that my gut doesn't waffle.
No need to thank me. Just another person here who has decided to keep an eye on you. One day at a time, and keep posting here before you do anything based off of crazytown.
I may be the least likely to say anything to give you encouragement today. You have every right to feel what you are feeling today. As you said, you weren't the one who strayed from the M. You have been the faithful spouse, yet you feel as though you are the one having to do the hard work.....instead of her. It doesn't seem fair.
This is a choice you make every day. You do not have to one thing, if you don't want to do it. As I was reading your post, I thought back to my H and wondered if he felt that I was doing nothing to make things better, or to show how sorry I was for what I had done, or to make it up to him. Considering the state I was in, he must have seen a woman who appeared to have given up and was doing nothing to help heal the MR. Outwardly, I'm sure it seemed I was not doing very much.
Each of you have a work to do.....if you want the M to succeed and get beyond this point. Your work is completely different from her work. It is a free choice for each of you. Every day you can choose to do the hard lifting to put this M back together, or you can choose to be bitter and live in a state of resentment and suspicion.........or even decide to end the M. Nobody is forcing either of you to do what you don't want to do.
Actually, this is a very common phase a LBS experiences. So, feel free to vent all you want or need. Just keep in mind that whatever you decide........it is a choice. It wasn't your choice for what your W did, but your response is up to you.
Btw... what's the deal with 100 posts?
The protocol on this forum is to try to keep each thread at 100 posts.
It makes it a little easier to go back and read someones threads or for you to go back and read your own threads.
Someone can see the advise you have been given and follow along a lot easier.
You can change the title within a thread if you desire.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Well then I do need to thank you. I need all the eyes on me I can get right now.
Just reread Do Nothing and 180... Not sure which approach to take. I go back to Sandi's list. I think that's a pretty good reference point. Would you agree?
Good point on gut not waffling.
I guess I'm at the point where I have to trust what she is saying and doing and be patient... if I get burned... then I can worry about that.
Is it normal/smart to be thinking about the back up plan if she decides she is done? Or is that just attracting negativity? I like what you said about what I'm doing here possibly bleeding over into RL.
I know I'm whining but I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired. I do believe it will be worth it in the end, but this is without a doubt the hardest thing I have ever been through.
Thank you Sandi... I realize it is a choice. I realize that is the greatest power I have is to make choices. I am choosing to fight for my M until she says she absolutely is done. I believe deep in my heart that we can come through this. My counselor made the comment on how bizarre our situation was to him. He said he can't remember a couple who (when being talked to individually) spoke so highly of the other person. He said he has never her us once complain about each other. I believe it's because we have something very good, but she is just in a very weird place mentally. I think she is confused and scared, but knows she loves me. I think possibly she's starting to see all the damage she has caused.
I just wish I had a specific road map of things I need to do. What are things that will help and what are things that push her away? I hate being a mind reader. Does backing off mean not doing the daily nice things I do like make her lunch or get her water bottle ready, start her car. Tell her to go take a bath while I get the kids to bed? I know she appreciates that stuff and she says it. But is it hurting my cause?
You're not whining! You're thinking and protecting yourself
Do nothing and 180? Both. Really think about that. Do nothing is more about not trying to fix her or push the issue. 180s are for improving yourself, which you can, and always should, be doing while "Doing Nothing".
Your wife is a scared little birdie in the palm of your hand. The more you push or try and fix, the more likely she is to flit away. This is why I stressed that you create the environment that promotes healing. Guess where that comes from. Working your 180s.
I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired.
My mother got sick and tired of hearing how sick and tired of being sick and tired I was.
"Is it smart/normal?" The more appropriate question to ask is whether or not it is helping you move forward to a detached, strong, and confident position. The decision on if and when is in your hands.
Hope sandi doesn't get mad at me for replying to this...
I am choosing to fight for my M until she says she absolutely is done.
Change to "I am choosing to fight for my M until I say I am absolutely done.
I think possibly she's starting to see all the damage she has caused.
Mindreading. Stop it. My W, even after 6 months in Piecing, is still learning how far the damage reached.
I just wish I had a specific road map of things I need to do. What are things that will help and what are things that push her away? I hate being a mind reader. Does backing off mean not doing the daily nice things I do like make her lunch or get her water bottle ready, start her car. Tell her to go take a bath while I get the kids to bed? I know she appreciates that stuff and she says it. But is it hurting my cause?
You have the map. We keep showing it to you. The book shows it to you.
Is backing off a 180? Is making her lunch or getting a water bottle a 180? Are any of those things you listed 180s? Are they what you've always done? Or are they attempts to garner her favor?
I am venting today because I keep hearing all the things I can do to win her love back and to be more attractive... but I did't have the A. I have to act happy and confident when I don't feel either of those things. Some days I am strong, but today I feel exhausted. Why do I feel like I am having to do the lions share of the work?
Honestly, because that is the philosophy of this program. There are others that are just as successful where it is up to the wayward spouse to do the heavy lifting, not the betrayed spouse.
At the end of the day as a betrayed spouse wanting your cheating spouse back with you, you'll have to get used to eating HUGE sh*t sandwiches, developing a love for them, and always asking for second helpings. That's just the plain truth of it. You've been betrayed as badly as a human being can be betrayed by another human being and what makes it so bad is that the betrayal was committed by the person closest to you in this life. I know the pain. I've been there. I think it would be so much easier to tell a WW to go to hell and move on with your life. Unfortunately for us chumps we love our WW's and want them back. I know I did/do.
Just know that I 100% understand exactly the position you're in. Does it seem unfair? Oh hell yes it does. You have to decide if it's worth it. I know this. You're going to be fine either way you decide. I chose to eat all the sh*t sandwiches and work it out with my cheater. I love her. I really do. A few years later are we back to what we had? Nope, and we never will be. It's a new R and I'm trying to figure out how to make it great, or walk away from it if it comes to that. If I could go back in time would I choose the path I did? I don't think so. I put myself through hell trying to win a cheater back. It wasn't until I quit and took myself out of the competition for her heart that she snapped out of it and came back. It took so much life out of me. So much. If I knew then what I know now I would have walked away clean, got drunk for a month, then moved on with my life.
You have to do the soul searching. We can't tell you what to do. This is your life to live how you wish. Don't make any of these life decisions based on what your wife wants or what anyone else wants. It has to be what you really truly want.
What was the Valentine's idea?
My W has contacted me several times today about normal things. One being our plans on the way back from spring break, where we should stop. Just upbeat, normal conversation. I think this is her way of trying.
These are good things right? Planning our trip... her talking upbeat and positive?
I have been backing off for probably 2 months. Unfortunately the A was still going on for part of that. I am seeing her warming up to me. I just wish I didn't feel so guarded and have angry conversations in my head with her. I know that can't be healthy.
Valentine's idea was to keep it low-key and family-oriented.
Tx, Good - For me it when it came down to brass tacks was unconditional love for my W. She hurt me deeply, more than anyone else. She did something I never pictured. (Insert the rest of the LBS script here, because it's true) And I experienced the feelings the same as all of us here. However, unconditional love is what won the day for me. It carried me through the hard times when I wanted to throw the A in her face when she acted scared to return to the MR or when she got angry with me. I wanted to push my hard-earned insight into the situation on her without allowing her to gain it on her own as I had to. Wonka's STFU smoothies were on tap, and I had Tx's sh*t sandwiches in my lunch box. But that was all my choice. We each have our own to make.
Good, you will feel guarded and angry. This too shall pass regardless of the outcome. As always, allow yourself to feel those feelings, then put them away for a while and get back to work.
I've been looking to change my diet anyway. Some STFU smoothies and Sh*t sandwiches seem like the right call right about now. If nothing else this will be a good lesson in patience for me. I too love my wife unconditionally and I'm hoping at some point... even if it takes years, that she will appreciate that fact.
GoodDad,
I am in the same sitch. I am eating the sandwiches and drinking the same smoothies. I only know of EAs with my W but today she stated she wants to reconcile.
Who knows where that will lead but we all have a lot of work ahead of us and time is what will heal all wounds.
If our Ws take the same actions again, at least we will be stronger individuals and true to ourselves and it will be much easier for us to let them go.
I've been looking to change my diet anyway. Some STFU smoothies and Sh*t sandwiches seem like the right call right about now. If nothing else this will be a good lesson in patience for me. I too love my wife unconditionally and I'm hoping at some point... even if it takes years, that she will appreciate that fact.
Don't forget to do some throat exercises so you'll be able to swallow your pride easily. I forgot to post that before but that's a huge one too. Sometimes that's really hard but pride can ruin everything. Sometimes you have to drink your STFU smoothie, eat the sh*t sandwich, then open up and swallow that pride.
Is it worth it? That's a question each of us has to answer for themselves. If you struggle following those steps just remember it's temporary and to keep your eyes on the prize.
When you check her phone and emails, do you do it in front of her? Does she understand the importance of being transparent when the A ends? And btw, this is not something that will have to be done from here on out, but neither should there be any secrets. She needs to do it, at least, until she's completely through withdrawals, and I'd add some extra time onto it.
You may be confused about where you are b/c of the advice you read on other threads, IDK. Most of the advice is for the LBS who has not reached the point of piecing their MR back together. Keep that in mind. You are in a fragile place in the road. She has not stabilized just yet, however, she's apparently doing well.
I don't want to give anyone a heart attack, so again, anyone reading this needs to understand that your W has ended the A and so far, is working with you to piece the M back together.
Not sure what you mean by doing "the" 180, if you are referring to the technique or if you only have one 180 that you are doing. I would say to continue to 180 any bad habits or behaviors as you continue to improve yourself. Also, you can't jump back into the R all at one time (the way you were before everything happened), b/c it would be too much for her to handle.
You can also work your 180's into goals to set for yourself, as you strive to become a better man. Little by little, you can set goals to be a better H, as well. Right now, you need to be cautious not to
pressure her.
I may have already mentioned some of this, so bear with me. Until she gets through the withdrawals, do not initiate sex. Don't initiate talking about sex. Don't hint about it. If she does, then fine, but let her lead so that she doesn't feel pressured. Most WW's need that time to emotionally adjust back into being intimate with the H. Most WW's think their feelings for the LBH'S will not return. So, don't rush her in this area, or she may get skiddish and run.
I would say that you can show a little more friendliness, engage in a little more conversation. Be careful you don't start firing a lot of questions about what she did throughout the day. You don't want her to feel she's under interrogation. Talk about other things and don't try to play counselor with her. Unless she initiates it, I suggest you keep things light. It is a delicate balance, for sure!
Give her breathing space. However, it may not be a good idea to leave her alone for an entire weekend, at this time, due to the withdrawals. Being a,one too much could prove too much eight now. She needs to stay occupied and involved, even with you,
to a degree, while she is going through withdrawals. Again, please be careful and don't over do, or she'll feel that you are acting like a watch dog. Your biggest challenge, I would guess, is you wanting to rush things along and push her. You want to fix her problems. Don't do it, or she will feel overwhelmed.
Let me say this about playing Mr. Fixer. No woman wants her H to fix her. Make that double for a WW. And whenever a woman is complaining about her day, her girlfriends, her boss/job, etc..........she just wants to be heard. It is not a clue that she wants you to fix things. The only time you should try to fix it, is if her complaints are about you.
As for saying what you want, are you talking what you want to see happen in the relationship? To me, that would be pushing, and way too early. She is not stable enough to deal with what you want, at the moment. It is taking everything she has to get through the withdrawals and getting her act together. It is so much more than just ending the A.
I would love for her to write me some kind of letter... put some thoughts on paper... apology, feelings, doubts, concerns, hopes, dreams... anything.. I just want her to think about those things.
I don't think she's emotionally ready to do anything like that.
I would love for her to reengage in our family life, instead of being so detached
.
I am sure you would, but you are expecting way too much from a woman who just ended her A four weeks ago. She is dealing with internal struggles. She is depressed. Give her time.
My counselor seems to think just giving her time and space will help her. But he also says it's a delicate balance where she still needs to know I love her. Seems simple enough. ugh.
I agree, except instead of saying she needs to know you love her, I would say she needs support. B/c if you try to show her how much you love her, then you'll probably be saying it or trying to be too affectionate. That would be putting emotional pressure on her.
So if she is saying postive things... Saying she wants our marriage... but nothing real specific... can I ask something of her? I would love to do some bonding activities but she might not be ready. Can I express that to her... Hey, I love what you are doing and that is enough for now, but when you are ready I would like to try some things to get us closer? IDK what to do
.
No, don't go there. It way too much right now. Don't overkill on the ILY. I cannot express enough that she needs more time. Be patient. Don't make it about what you want right now. She can't handle it.
Number 1 thing I know I need to do is relax and focus on me... I get that. I am trying. But is that enough for now? I hate that I feel like I'm playing a game. I love my wife. I would do anything for her. Why does it have to be so complicated? Ugh.
I assure you it is no game for her. She has undergone a very emotional turmoil, as well as you. The difference is she thought she had fell out of love with you and in love with OM, then she is trying to will herself not to feel in love with OM and feel in love with the man she fell out of love with in the first place. And you wonder why it has to be so complicated?
GoodDad,
You now have solid advice from both reconciled LBHs AND a reconciled, former WAW. You were reaching for a plan. Do you think you have one now?
Keep posting. If you feel as though you have a question or are wanting to act on something, check in here for advice. I can't tell the impact that had on me during R. Go slow for your little birdie and your precious children.
I don't know why I didn't think of this before. People talk about the 180 and about how to get their spouse back. The most accurate word is to "draw" your spouse back to you. You aren't pulling, they are attracted back on their own.
There was this story a long time ago I heard on NPR. Farmers were destroying the rain forest at an alarming rate in order to grow their food. And as they planted the same crops, over and over, in the same plot, they depleted the soil and had to cut down more trees in order to have new farmland. It was a vicious cycle.
Charity organizations came in and tried to educate the natives on how to properly rotate crops in the soil and use organic fertilizers. They tried to work with the local chiefs and witch doctors. Nothing they did worked. The people were reluctant to change.
So one of the foreign workers decided to go into comptetition with the native farmers. He quietly setup his farm and would go every week to local farm supply to get his supplies. He grew his crops and when they were harvested and sold, he planted different crops that would replenish the soil. He did all this without saying anything unless someone came to visit and wondered how he was doing what he was doing. After a while, the other farmers and leaders noticed that with his small plot of land, he was constantly out-producing them with less effort. After a while, they came to HIM to find out how they could do the same thing. He drew them towards him by example. I think the 180 is similar.
Hi GD,
Sorry to see you in this situation. It [censored] and we are not taught how to handle these when they ocurr which is why it is a good idea to come to sites like this one and learn about yourself, your R, your spouse and your feelings.
I have looked over your posts and get a general feel as to what you are going through.
The advice given is pretty sound, in particular from Sandi and from personal experience she is correct. The other posts telling you to back off are also spot on.
What you have to understand is that you don't understand how women think or act. You also don't know what is going through your W head. She may seem to be not working on the R but if she is serious about making it work then she has a lot of work ahead.
You need to stand down from being so attentative on her. She needs to make those tiny steps on her own. She knows you love her so you dont need to remind her constantly.
She will (if she is working on it) start to make progress and show baby steps. You need to watch for those signs and take them accordingly. Maybe one day she will kiss you when she gets in the car and then maybe wont for a month. She may tell you something secretive and then be introvert for some time afterwars. She may act erratic and change some habits that remind her of the A (a place, an object, etc) or she may talk to you one sec in a lovey dovey way and then talk as if she is upset.
You have to take it in your stride and be honest to her. If something is not right, say it. Speak your mind, with tact, respect and firmness but be open
She has to know you will give your life to save hers but you will also let her walk home if she disrespects you.
The book talks about you and you only. Never set goals for the spouse. They are for you only.
About her writing something, I would say forget it. When the time is right and if she wants to, she will share her feelings with you. Don't force her to and much less in a way you are comfortable with. She is the one that has to be comfortable.
One thing before I forget, leave your M behind. You are not to fix it but start a new R from scratch. For that reason you need to look at yourself (if you have not) and ask what makes a wife who apparently has only good words for her husband get involved? She was lacking something and if you read the books and read enough posts I am sure you will find the answer. (sorry if this was already discussed).
You need to see what went wrong to change that so that it does not show its face again. One thing I have found is that once we fall off our bike we are less afraid the second time. If you do piece your R back together (and remember piecing is damn hard, probably the hardest and most draining) jumping off again for her will be easier. I believe that once the boundary of infidelity has been crossed, going back is much easier and more difficult to catch second time around.
You also need to work on trust. The biggest killer. I think trust is the ultimate expression of forgiveness. If you have really forgiven her and trust her you have a fighting chance. If you havent then your new R is on rocky ground.
I may be off track here but have you ever stopped and looked at her like a woman instead of like a wife? Have you ever complimented her on her appearance and maybe not just on how good she prepared a meal? Have you ever wined and dined her, spent a night at a fancy hotel or gone on the second honeymoon? Have you ever bought her lingerie or had the flower shop surprise her with a rose any day of the year outside the usual dates like valentines or her birthday? Have you ever stared at her in the bedroom when she is undressing or getting ready and when she catches you smile to let her know she has become a prey?
The reason for this is something someone (a woman) once told me some time ago and that was that our spouses need to feel like a woman or a man. Whatever the case.
In my situation I felt that i was not needed by my W except to pay the bills. I never heard a good thing about me from her and physical contact was zero. I can only imagine that I returned the favour and we both fell out as a result.
In short, make her feel like woman, not like your wife. If you get what I mean. Let her do her own sh1t and work her own sh1t out by herself. if she needs you I think she knows where to find you and will.
If she has had a PA she needs to replace the om with you so she needs to start taking that puzzle apart and start putting the new pieces together with your face on it before you two have a chance. even then both of you will still need time and space and there may be moments where a particular location, word, song, etc will bring back memories and you have to bleed it out.
In short and blunt ... don't ask anything from her emotionally.
I would suggest changing those feelings and start getting to know her again and let her get to know the new you. Go to a movie or some place that does not demand intimacy or a long time staring at each other. A place where you can both enjoy and share an experience together.
In my case it was weekend drives into the country where at times we chatted, at times we listened to the music and others we delved in our thoughts. We would also go for ice cream, something we havent done in ages, go to the movies which was also something we hadnt done in ages or go shopping.
I am one of the few guys that enjoys going shopping with my w. it is also a comfortable way of spending hours together without the emotional strain of having to talk for the whole amount. Sometimes she would try something on and come out having put her clothes back on. Later on she would open the door and ask me for her opinion. Sometimes i would suggest something I liked and give it to her to try on. it is about acting like you care and believe me, if you start to participate a little, you begin to see a different side.
I can only speak from experience but going shopping and participating and making it fun did a lot for me. it made us talk about superficial stuff in a lighthearted way. it made us interact in a friendly environment with no pressure on anyone. it made me see her in a different light and her see me in a different way too. It took both our minds off our problems and connected us as friends first. I remember one time I asked her to try on a tight black dress I liked. She did and without asking I gently turned her around and slowly zipped the back up. I missed that moment. When it came to unzip her she gave me her back and lift up her hair without saying a word. That moment to me was priceless and said a lot about where things were going.
Having said that, I still focus on me, dont text her first in general dont overdo the hugs or kisses. I sometimes call her darling and sometimes childish. I suppose it is a bit like leaving your young child to play in the park by themselves. You dont stay too close so they feel your presence but not too far where if something does happen they cant find you. it is finding the correct distance.
Anyway hope to have made sense and wish you all the best.
I will reread to make sure I understand what I just wrote as it is late and I am knackered.
Peace
Max
Maximus, great post with tons of good things in it.
Nice post Maximus.
Finding distance, emotionally unhooking, patience, finding things that can keep you mentally positive, finding opportunities to lightly connect (and then not push), all great stuff. Doing those things now.
It truly is like dating again, just with some familiarity.
Hi T,
It is about finding the correct distance.
You need to interact with her. Each couple is a world unto its own.
What works for one wont for someone else.
Find that which works and apply it. It will be a long and hard road and you will stumble but never lose sight of the final goal.
A word of advice. Be in control. Most of the women I have followed here complained that their husbands were soft, leaned too much on them, handed over too much responsability or control. You take the reigns but with constraint and make her feel secure. Look up to you. Proud of you if you must. Surprise her, dont fall into a routine if you are piecing because it works and you are afraid to change the note. You still get marks for falling on your face if you tried. Being Mr. Safe is not sexy and wont get you marks.
Finally, get sex involved in the piecing in one way or another. She does not want to have sex with you right now but flirt. If she had a PA you know she was f@cking at some stage and most probably not the boring missionary each time so it was on her mind. You now have to make her switch to want to hump you. You wont achieve that by doing the dishes or being mr romantic. Mr. Romantic lets her know you are interested. Mr bad boy gets her to open up and you out of the friend zone.
I can tell you that when I see my wife in Lingerie I am not thinking romantic but instead ... booty. Your work now is for her to offer it to you as she did to someone else.
I hope to have made sense and hang on in there.
Peace
Max
BOMB DROPPED!!!!!!!!!!!
Haven't been checking emails. I decided to today. Went into the retrieve deleted messages. All kids of loving texts... sexual... F this. I'm done. 3 strikes your out in my book. I don't think I could ever trust again.
Advice on proceeding forward with kids and the house. I will not move out. I can afford to make it work. I deserve more custody of the kids because she never does [censored] with them.
So sick. I really love my wife. But I can never recover from this. I really think I have to cut my losses and move on.
Don't make any decisions. Wait to calm down and get some solid advice from the wise people on here. I know how this hurts. Don't do anything. Don't talk to her. Just wait.
GoodDad - I certainly hope you haven't acted yet. Going to give you a little insight into the human brain here. We are not programmed to function off of high emotion and high intellect at the same time. They tend to be inversely proportional. Think of all the stupid things we do when we are angry, hurt, or first in love. That is you right now.
So sick. I really love my wife. But I can never recover from this. I really think I have to cut my losses and move on.
Yep, I said this in February of last year. Look where I am now. Look at sandi, Tx, all the others here who have recovered from this exact thing. I'm not telling you what to do. It is your choice, but remember that it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end. Really do some deep soul-searching and let your emotions calm before you make this final decision. Post here soon.
Max: lots to chew on in your posts - thanks for sharing!
Already did some dumb things...
Contacted OM spouse. Filled her in. Contacted her brother who she was lying too. Contacted her mom in Mexcio... Yeah... probably over reacted.... Ooops.. At this point I don't Fn care. She has lied to everyone. It's now on her. I will not try to show her my best self and win her back. That didn't work. I'm going with the 180... telling her this is the house her family lives in. This is the families house. Right now the family isn't her priority so she should probably leave until she can decide what her priorities are. I will not beg to have her back after all of this. I have been so good to her. This is on her now. I think odds are good she will just say she wants out and I don't see trying to stop her at this point. Sorry if that's not the DB way.
Already did some dumb things...
Contacted OM spouse. Filled her in. Contacted her brother who she was lying too. Contacted her mom in Mexcio... Yeah... probably over reacted.... Ooops.. At this point I don't Fn care. She has lied to everyone. It's now on her. I will not try to show her my best self and win her back. That didn't work. I'm going with the 180... telling her this is the house her family lives in. This is the families house. Right now the family isn't her priority so she should probably leave until she can decide what her priorities are. I will not beg to have her back after all of this. I have been so good to her. This is on her now. I think odds are good she will just say she wants out and I don't see trying to stop her at this point. Sorry if that's not the DB way.
That other "180" you were doing rarely works. They don't really give a sh*t about your best self. This new 180 you're describing is the real one. The irony of it is that now that you're really done and you're the one who demands a divorce, now is when she'll really want you because she can no longer have you. If you really don't want her back at this point then don't fall for that because she'll get desperate and do anything. Wild crazy sex, whatever. BTW, go ahead and take her up on the wild and crazy sex, you deserve it, but don't let it cloud your judgment and I'd recommend safe sex since you're not exactly sure who all she's been with.
Good luck my man.
Already did some dumb things...
Contacted OM spouse. Filled her in. Contacted her brother who she was lying too. Contacted her mom in Mexcio... Yeah... probably over reacted.... Ooops.. At this point I don't Fn care. She has lied to everyone. It's now on her. I will not try to show her my best self and win her back. That didn't work. I'm going with the 180... telling her this is the house her family lives in. This is the families house. Right now the family isn't her priority so she should probably leave until she can decide what her priorities are. I will not beg to have her back after all of this. I have been so good to her. This is on her now. I think odds are good she will just say she wants out and I don't see trying to stop her at this point. Sorry if that's not the DB way.
Hello Gooddad,
Oh my! Sounds like you have had quite a morning. Did you confront her with your new findings before you told her mom, brother, OM's wife, etc? Exposing this to everyone isn't the DB way, but detaching certainly is. All of this time she has been cake eating. Is it time for her to see what he life will be like without you as her husband?
Setting boundaries is a wonderful idea regarding her disrespecting you in the family home since she has continued her affair. What is the best way to implement those boundaries to protect yourself and your kids?
Right now everything you say and do needs to be very strategic. I strongly urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting coach as soon as possible. There is much that can be done. Call me to discuss our coaching program.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Sorry you have to go through this. I certainly don't think you have done anything dumb - sounds like you took action so that you will not allow her to keep lying and disrespecting you and your family. You were living in a lie and now you are not. I always think honesty is truly the best strategy in this. Your family deserves to understand what is happening, and especially the OMW so that she can know the truth of her own marriage and make decisions for herself.
From my experience, the vast, vast majority of the time this happens the OM will immediately throw your WW under the bus to save his own butt. At least temporarily. Your WW will probably only get crazier one way or the other, and it really isnt your concern because no matter what she says, its got nothing to do with you.
I agree with the other posters about not making a hasty decision about either divorce or taking her back. You should do neither right now. But you should absolutely be taking action right now. And it should be all about yourself, not your WW or marriage for now. Exercise and eat healthy. No alcohol. Consult with a couple of lawyers to understand your rights in an infidelity divorce, eliminate the fear of the unknown, and learn what you should do to put yourself in a strong position. Start documenting all the things you do and the time you spend with your kids in a handwritten journal, with dates and times. Document all the times she is gone. Separate your finances and close out any joint credit cards. You will likely have to pay at least 50% of her current debt, but there are ways to start the clock where she is responsible for new spending. Whether you eventually divorce or reconcile wont be decided now, and the decision may not be up to you. But putting yourself in the strongest position possible now will pay off either way.
Good luck!
I agree with fade.
Anger is good, rage is not nor revenge. It will get in the way, you need a clear head.
Don't get mad, get yourself protected in every way. Stay where you are, protect your children.
Immediate action on Fins, absolutely immediate. No delay, talk to bank, advisers and L
Above all L.
If you had unprotected sex with WW, get tested. I did so and I told WH and my L that I had done so. It's important to look after you.
Calm down, have white focused anger not red unfocused anger.
The next few days are the most important for you. Change passwords, cut her access to funds and protect your computer, tablet, mobile phone. Disengage FB.
Go completely totally and utterly silent on the A. Otherwise you will look vindictive, initial reaction in anger others will understand but repeated outburst and WW will get the sympathy.
I did say L didn't I and follow to the letter his advice.
Calm, collected and controlled.
You got this. If you stay strong and get detached then that sends a clear strong message about your boundary. WW will see that strong strength especially if nasty OM gets his up commance. I would bet he will run like the cheap little worm he is into his dirty cheese less wormhole.
Just my 2c worth
V
So lots of talking tonight. Told her to leave originally. After talking to my counselor said if she leaves it's like a vacation for her. Whatever. She didn't want to leave. So she's in guest room in basement. Still says she loves me and isn't planning on leaving. I said what about the OM? She said obviously it needs to end. No sh!t. So torn. On one hand I want to serve her papers and say get out. On the other to hear her say she is sorry for fn up our life's and hopes she can fix it wants me to give her a chance. I don't kmow. Still crazy about her even though I can't look at her right now. But will she ever be able to give me her best? I know I'm done doing anything nice. I will be a good dad and try to work on me. My question is I've been in pain for 6 months. Do I just put an end to it for my sanity or do I fight thru another 6 months minimum of trying to see if it can work?
Sounds like OM got kicked out of his place. Sounds like he told my W he loves her and wants to be with her. Part of me wants her to go down that road and see how ugly it will end up for her. I'll be fine.
Since we are broke finances are not a big deal. I have money that is my dads that we were holding in case he goes in a nursing home. Even better news is it's invested through my wife's brother. I might pull it out and give it to my brother who I can trust. Plus my dad isn't doing well and If he passes there is quite a bit of money. I might just have my brothers take that too and get later.
I told her this. You need to decide. Then if you can get past the other guy we can think about working on our marriage. And I still might say I can't do it. I feel so bad for my kids. 10 8 4. They don't deserve this and neither did I.
My real question is this the person she has become or is my wife still in there somewhere. I'd rather be alone than miserable with her. I want to text the OM and say good luck. You can have her.
Clearly this is an emotional time for you. I would feel the exact same way.
I would suggest dropping the topic for now. You've said what you've needed to say.
Give it a little time and then re-visit once you've had a chance to digest things.
Be careful here because you might say something you will later regret. Breathe.
Sounds like OM got kicked out of his place.
If this is his second or third A that might be the case. OMW may decide no more. That's always a risk when telling OPS (other persons spouse). We often hear tell the OMW or OWM and it's not something I think is a good idea. It's often said they have the right to know, firstly it removes their right to not know, they may already know and are DB, it's in the best interest of the LBS to keep the OP R in play.
Sounds like he told my W he loves her and wants to be with her.
Plan B, it might be WW knows an OM like this isn't a good bet. If they will do it with you then they will do it to you.
Part of me wants her to go down that road and see how ugly it will end up for her. I'll be fine.
You are angry, calm down.
Since we are broke finances are not a big deal.
It is even more of a big deal in that case.
I have money that is my dads that we were holding in case he goes in a nursing home. Even better news is it's invested through my wife's brother. I might pull it out and give it to my brother who I can trust.
Not your cash and you have a duty of care in this. Get a professional adviser involved, they will recommend a good arrangement with tax effectiveness. That's my area so I know that you can have legal issues with duty of care failures.
Plus my dad isn't doing well and If he passes there is quite a bit of money. I might just have my brothers take that too and get later.
My recommendation involve a professional, you don't want WW staying just because their is the prospect of wealth. I hope your dad has the longest and best of health and is part of your life for as long as possible.
--------------------------------------
Straight thinking for you. Well done on keeping MBR. Your WW may get angry in response. You stated your boundary, she was not transparent about OM. She gave you reassurances that were illusions. You have every right to enforce your boundaries.
Stay well and calm
V
Feeling hopeless today. Like I have been fighting fo 6 months and have nothing to show for it. Really feeling like saying you made this bed now sleep in it.
Not sure I can ever get images out of my mind that I got from emails. A sexual flirty side that she never showed me.
I know I can't rush a decision. How long should I think about it?
I did the same things you're doing for 2+ years. My wife and I are together today. Nothing is ever hopeless. I had emails saying she never wanted to be a wife and mother. Imagine how that feels? I read emails saying she never really loved me. Imagine how that feels when we had been married 26 years at the time and she had my heart 100%. Nothing is ever hopeless. The fog of affairs or MLC or whatever can be really powerful. Like going down the dark side of the force and trying to come back to the light (sorry for the nerdy reference but affair fog is like being seduced by the dark side of the force. It consumes our cheaters).
How long you should think about it is up to you. What does she really want? Is she still wayward or is that truly in the past and she wants to R? If there is any continuing "waywardness" then there is ZERO point to working on the R. I lasted over 2 years like this then gave up and filed for D. In a weird twist of fate it was that event that snapped her out of it. As she tells me it was like a bolt of lightening that hit her right in the head and cleared her mind instantly. She finally saw the situation from outside herself and was horrified at who she had become.
Will that work for everybody? Nope. We're all snowflakes. Sometimes we follow patterns (cheaters almost always follow the cheater's script) but we're also unique human beings. We can give you general advice and my own advice is always based strictly on my experience and my obsessive research on infidelity following my experience. Still, it's your unique situation and you have to decide what to do. Your fate is really in your hands. You can work with her and map out a strategy to a new, healthy R or you can cut your losses and move on. Either way, you WILL be ok. Tomorrow the sun will rise and you'll be OK. If you get to a point where you really know that you'll be fine either way (and I know we all lie to ourselves that we're at that point when we're not, I know I did) then you can really work on this situation productively and not while being led by a broken heart. Making life decisions from the perspective of a broken heart is unwise.
Edit - OK NOW you can start a new thread - Cadet
So little bit of drama tonight. OMW texted me saying there would be no contact. I asked her how she knew. She's in the dark for sure. But I called her and then texted her after. Obviously he was lying to his wife but there were several things he lied to my wife about. Plus he through my wife under the bus to his wife saying she was like a stalker. So I shared that info with my w when she got home. Weird. The guy is a jerk who has had previous affairs. Think it my have bursted her bubble on prince charming. Not out of the woods by any means but I've been telling her for a long time he's just out for a piece of ass. Think she's seeing that now. Hoping this is the wake up call she needs. Told her he'd try to lie his way out of it. We'll see if she buys it. She looks pissed tho and that's not good usually.
If nothing else I feel a little bit good about being right about the D Bag.
Told my wife if she leaves I'd be doing same thing. Lying to hot girls to get some action. I'm sure that impressed here. Beautiful part is I have a buddy who is leading on this girl for sex and it bugs my W. I said it's the same deal with u. She thinks she's in love too. Still a crappy deal for me but it was nice to have a little moment like this. Long way to go. Still need to know it's over before I can move forward.
The kind of man who cheats on his wife with another man's wife is never ever going to be Prince Charming. You were always the better choice but again, the fog. It'll make them act completely nuts. They'll say horrible things they don't mean. It's so powerful. It makes you feel like you have to try and help them break free of it even though they've hurt you so bad. It's like their sick and you took a vow to stick by their side in sickness and in health, for better or for worse. I hope to God that she starts seeing this terrible person for who he really is before she ruins the best part of her life.
I have felt that all along. Like she is sick. I know it's not exactly the same but I wouldn't leave my wife if she got cancer. If this can't wake her up I'm afraid nothing will and I'll be forced to move on for my own health.
Question for you Tx... How are things for you now? We're you able to get past things? Are you happy?
Another question...
Do I jump on this opening of her thinking he's a jerk? I'm sure he'll try to explain it all even though it's there in texts. Do I email her and remind her of the ways he has lied to her and other things about his character... Not feeling like the affair is wrong... Being willing to walk away from his kids... He's a real winner. Or do I stay with leaving her alone?
I do feel like this is a key moment. If her fantasy land crumbles she might wake up. I don't want her to get sucked back in but I don't want to push her away.
I really believe that if after all she read and I told her his wife said... If she still tells me she loves this guy... I can't continue to try. I'm not doing anything now, but I will have to make a decision that is best for me.
I get it will take her time even if it is over, but if she can't say I'm done with this guy now I think I will have lost all hope.
Guess I didn't have to say much this morning. She was not happy. He made it look to his wife that she was stalking him and wouldn't leave him alone. That she had crazy fantasies but he didn't have feelings for her. She wants to email the wife his emails proving otherwise. The lies to my W were the most damaging I think. He told her he was moving out to a buddies place, but the wife texted me saying there was no plan for him to move out and he said he loved her and wanted to work on their marriage.
I told her to talk to her brother for advice. She needs to talk to him today. He will be furious and she will feed off of it. Not sure if I should contact him and say, hey, give your sister a call today. She needs someone to talk to.
So when you get to 100 you start new?
So when you get to 100 you start new?
Yes - thanks
Do I repost stuff I wrote this am or will people still respond to me?
Do I repost stuff I wrote this am or will people still respond to me?
You can write whatever you choose as it is your thread,
as long as you remain within the TOS(Board rules)
I always say that new thread bring change, mostly within us.
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2652734#Post2652734