surrealism is not my style - DivorceBusting.com

Here's my new thread, but I don't have much to say right now. I'm starting to feel the slow burn of anger peeking through the despair...I thought it was gone.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD

old thread^

Ciluzen I'm so sorry to hear of this new development. I know the feeling of being served well. It stinks...no way around it, but as many here say, what really has changed other than some legal stuff? I was served a few months ago, so I have had some time to process. I've realized if this is not what I want then I need to keep moving forward working on myself and that's all I can do.
What your H said to you about you being happier without him is something I could definitely see my H saying. He has continually told me he knows this is all his fault and that I'm better off without him. As much as I wish I could say or do something to change his mind I know I cant.
All you can do is keep moving forward. Until your H realizes he is not the cause of your "unhappiness" (and someday he will) there isn't much else you can do but keep going.

Hi Cil - I'm really sorry for your bad news. Your H's logic is all screwed up.

W appears happier now we are separated....I know lets file for D, that will help her even more.?

Anyway, I know some of the pain you are going through as I got my papers last night. In the UK one of the grounds for D is Unreasonable Behaviour, and the lawyers just make stuff up, or exaggerate, or lie, about all perceived grievances throughout the marriage.

It even said stuff like I didn't do the housework when she was pregnant and afterwards when she had post natal depression - a total fabrication.

I know it's the lawyers job to make this [censored] up but it still hurts to my very core to see it on official documents.

Hugs to you Cilizen

Well. I've tried to let this sink in the last few days.

H called to warn me the papers were coming the night before. I did not DB. I was a mess...so was he. We also talked the night I received them.

And then last night I had to ask him a question about mediation, because my research and his explanation fit, but what his L explained to me did not line up with what he wanted or had explained. What his L told me seemed designed to have me L up for mediation, when H had asked for a mediator to NOT have to have two L draw it out. I told H it seemed like she was trying to mess with us. He agreed. I suggested we call the mediator on our own. We'll see. We both agreed...we hate Ls.

mm and iisit,
Thank you for hugs and kind words, and ideas.

I have been a mess and my H and I have had too much talking and phone calls since his filing. I went back to trying to convince him to work on our marriage. He continues to tell me I don't like him and that he made me miserable.

He has also been a mess...I know he's sad about this too, just sees no other way. He even mentioned thinking of asking me to dinner. I even found out that he and Bubbles family ARE going on a ski trip now, to the same exact resort that MY trip is to. Can't get away.

It may be past the point of no return, but I'm going as dark as I can. My health and sanity requires it.

Originally Posted By: ciluzen

It may be past the point of no return, but I'm going as dark as I can. My health and sanity requires it.

Hang in there. It seems the season to be served with D papers as a few on your posts have as well as I was served last week

Punch in the gut...reality check....OMG...this is real.....my heart hearts and feel like I am going to puke

But nothing you can do but continue to do what you are doing. I am trying to stay cool, let the process work itself out, and not seem desperate. I know it is hard but I wish you the best and hope somewhere he realizes its he that needs to also fix himself to be happy

Cil

Just popping by to check in. I have been caught up in my own navel gazing so sorry to disappear.

H needs to see your behaviour as the key to the divorce right now. Mr Ex said the same thing when he ended our relationship, he stated "there is something about me that makes you really unhappy". He was right in some ways. I was frustrated as, by him making unilateral decisions about our relationship. Ironic huh!

H behaviour is a series of mixed signals and extreme actions. He has no idea want her wants. Just because the papers were served and file, means little. It really is just another stage of this DBing process.

Step back, as you say with your trip as best you can and get out of H drama. It will suck you in like a black hole. Remember you have a plan and you were rocking it. Go back to what you know how to do. You know how to be amazing Cil.

Personally I think you have really confused him by all the changes and his head is spinning. Let him spin, it will stop. Slow the process down if you get any opportunities. Ask for time to think, consider, ponder without appearing to be stalling the process. Ask for his patience while you get your head around things.

Some other more experienced DBer's would be better to advise, but get some legal advice separate for yourself. Cover your bases in case mediation turns pear shaped.

Hang in there Cil. You have been a a great DBer, go back to what you know.

I keeping popping by. Lots of love Cil

Jellyxxx

Originally Posted By: JellyB

Cil

Just popping by to check in. I have been caught up in my own navel gazing so sorry to disappear.

Hi, JB! Thanks for visiting...I've missed you! We all need to navel-gaze, once in awhile.

H needs to see your behaviour as the key to the divorce right now. Mr Ex said the same thing when he ended our relationship, he stated "there is something about me that makes you really unhappy". He was right in some ways. I was frustrated as, by him making unilateral decisions about our relationship. Ironic huh!

Extremely ironic. I was only upset at H AFTER he started to pull away and paid more attention to Bubbles than me. But I can't think of anything I didn't like about him before that...and H says I hadn't liked him in years (last talk it was 20 years...it keeps growing). He has yet to tell me what about me I would need to change, even though he keeps saying "do you want a list?" Last R talk I said yes. He complained that I put kale in things. When I told him I never heard him say he didn't like it, he said that that would be mean. Note to self, no kale.

H behaviour is a series of mixed signals and extreme actions. He has no idea want her wants. Just because the papers were served and file, means little. It really is just another stage of this DBing process.

I see this. I have taken a few deep breaths and am plunging ahead again.
I am working on finding a lawyer this week.
H just left a few minutes ago after surprising me with a call to see if I was home. He wanted to pick up his mail and was surprised there was so much. Mentioned that maybe he should call some of the places to change his address. I said it won't be delivered here pretty soon anyway...it didn't even phase him. He just said, "true".
He was his happy, charming self and seemed in a bit of a hurry. But he wanted to throw some small talk about his day in. I was upbeat but vague. Made eye contact but looked busy. I did ok.

Step back, as you say with your trip as best you can and get out of H drama. It will suck you in like a black hole. Remember you have a plan and you were rocking it. Go back to what you know how to do. You know how to be amazing Cil.

Thanks, JB. I need to try.

Personally I think you have really confused him by all the changes and his head is spinning. Let him spin, it will stop. Slow the process down if you get any opportunities. Ask for time to think, consider, ponder without appearing to be stalling the process. Ask for his patience while you get your head around things.

Some other more experienced DBer's would be better to advise, but get some legal advice separate for yourself. Cover your bases in case mediation turns pear shaped.

Working on it.

Hang in there Cil. You have been a a great DBer, go back to what you know.

Trying to go dark. Tonight I was surprised, but fine. Not to much cycling of emotions. I'm ok.

I keeping popping by. Lots of love Cil

Jellyxxx

Interviewing two L today. Wish me luck in finding one I'm comfortable with. I still would rather just go through mediation with no L, as would H, but I need to be prepared and I'm trying not to initiate any contact right now. Ugh.

This really is so surreal.

I find a lawyer I feel good with, but she's expensive. I have to spend money that we don't really have to come to an agreement with my former best friend about how to get rid of everything we've worked for for over 25 years. He says he doesn't want a D...he never pictured this happening. But that he believes its his best chance to be happy. Does this make any sense?

Yep, I felt the same way when I divorced my ex-wife. It's complete insanity especially if the divorce becomes contested.

Couldn't go through with the expensive L. Decided on the one with the flat rate. I feel much less icky. You're right, Thornton. Complete insanity.

I've been trying to go dark, but when H "popped by" to get his mail this week, he also promised to deposit our agreed upon amount for bills this week...and didn't. I called last night to check on that sitch and he basically said he just didn't feel like it (my words) but would do it by Monday. I then tried several times to nicely end the call, but he would just find ways to keep talking. I still try to be upbeat and validate, but I don't want to make small talk with him like nothing is wrong...H fired me as his wife!

He usually procrastinates on things or has others (like me) do them for him...why the rush to get me out of his life? I wish I knew what was going on in his head.

He just stubbornly plays the same tune...that I don't like him, never appreciated him, that he made me miserable. I've given up on defending my feelings; that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself. Pointless.

I have continued to validate and try to be understanding when he talks. But he didn't even call to let me know he wasn't going to follow through with what he said? And then acted like it was no big thing?

Who is this person?

I'm making friends, going out to do things, trying to stay busy, but I often end up looking at this whole mess and wondering what happened? He tells me he's a big picture kinda guy, and I like to dwell on the details. Well, the devil is, as they say, in the details. A big picture is just a chaotic blurry mess without understanding those details.

But I get what he's saying. He was unhappy. I was unhappy. He believed he was unhappy because of me. He believed I was unhappy because of him. Therefore, getting rid of me would make us both happier.

Problem is, I wasn't originally unhappy because of him (not until he used the unhappiness factor as an excuse to have an EA). So now, in his own words, he's not happy or even happier, but can see his potential for happiness is greater if we are apart. He doesn't understand why I won't even entertain the thought that I would be happier without him. Uhhh, wedding vows? Nothing?

Well, I still am DBing. But yes, at some point I won't. I'm sure I'll know when to give up. I do understand his pain, if not his reasons. I've always known he was stubborn and held his emotions in. Sometimes he shares. Sometimes, lately, he even cries. I've heard sorry many times. I've forgiven. Still confused, though. He's depressed, but doesn't see it or know why.

I miss my husband. I wish he was still around. But I haven't seen that guy in so long. With the exception of a few ever decreasing fleeting glimpses, its been years.

Ok. More confusing weirdness today.

Tried to get D23 to go ski with me today, but she begged off so I went up by myself. Blasted the radio and yelled along (I would never call it singing) all the way up the mountain. I felt pretty good.

On my first lift ride, as I neared the top, I could see someone below and ahead of me looking up. And staring. As I got closer I realized it was H. He had told me last night he was thinking of not going, so I was a little surprised. He and one of the people I am going on my ski trip with were skiing together so he asked me to join them. I did. Then the friend cut off and said he was heading home and left us there.

I turned to H and told him he didn't have to ski with me. He told me I didn't have to ski with him. I headed down the hill and he followed. Then he asked if I wanted to do another run so we rode up together again. Skied to the lodge and he asked if I wanted some soup because he was freezing. We had a pleasant lunch and drinks that he paid for...no R talk. It felt like a slightly awkward date. Skied a bit more, then he left.

I continued on a bit longer. I'm getting better, faster,and more comfortable...more confident. Almost like I used to feel, only as a better skier.

Not sure why he does this, though. I guess it should make me happy that I can show him my changes during these interactions. But I wonder if he's just trying to prove to me that he's a "nice" guy, despite our situation. Guilt at play, maybe. I'll never know.

Hi Cil,
I don't know how you do it.... Those interactions would drive me bonkers! You're not going to know if he's being authentic or just manipulating the situation, but kudos to you for being strong! Congrats on the ski runs! Ahhh there's nothing more exhilarating than gliding down a mountain with cool air hitting the face!

Oh Ciluzen how confusing for you with H blowing hot and cold like that! When I DBd the first time round, 9 years ago, my H did this. H would ignore me, not text or call for a week or more and then every so often he would take me and S, who was 2 at the time, out for a day out or out for tea. It went on for months. Eventually he asked me on a date just me and him and that's when he told me he wanted to come home to try. Don't want to get your hopes up but I'd say that as long as you feel OK with these interactions I'd keep doing them exactly how you are! Rooting for you!

Feyth, yes these interactions leave me confused and guessing. And IP, no my hopes at this point are not up. I'm just continuing to DB.
I know these things:

a) His mom has Alzheimers and it is eating at him, although he pretends it isn't- he says there's nothing he can do about it (an uncontrollable issue that causes him pain). He was closest to his mom.

b)His dad's behavior is of concern as well, as he is stressed out being her caretaker, has dangerously high blood pressure, and is a "control freak".

c)He is stressed out about money. He did not really think about retirement and opened his own business only a few years ago. We carry a lot of debt.

d)He constantly complains about getting old and being old.

e)He basically puts a happy face on and works (has told his staff about filing for D but will try very hard to make his office a pleasant place to work),goes home and goes to sleep. On weekends he tries to ski or go to our vacation home.

f)He still gets family time with Bubbles' family as if he is their uncle. His attempts to do activities with our kids have not worked well, but they will stop by his office to say hi. Nether has visited his apartment even though he has invited them.

g)He stubbornly holds on to the fantasy that I don't like him. I will only show him understanding, friendship, caring, compassion, and eye contact and smiles (not as a Stepford wife). I will look amazing.

H is not happy. I guess I just keep DBing and trying to show him I'm a positive force to be around...even as we divorce and sell the family home. We have some work to do on it to get it ready to sell...I believe we will do that together as ski season winds down. I will try not to show negative emotions around him during the D process and while working on the house. I will try to be supportive as I know whatever is going on with him, he is hurting, too.

Ciluzen,

You are amazing. I hate when my Wah blows hot and cold.

I think you have to be so strong to keep dbing and being so positive with everything and you seem to be in a pretty good mindset and not emotional up and down right now but pretty stable.

I hope I am as strong as you are when I need to be.

Thinking of you. No good advice from me just moral support! Wish I had good advice.

Oh, rednail.
My emotions are crazy bad...up, down, and sideways. Mostly when I try to sleep at night. I think we all who are dealing with this are going through the emotional wringer. But strength? Its not exclusive to those who are stable. Its in all of us, as long as we get up each day and put one foot in front of the other, we are strong. Hoping those steps get us to the light at the end of the dark tunnel...whatever the light is, I'll take it in and hopefully get a great boost of vitamin D and a glowing tan.

Thank you for reminding me I can be strong even while emotionally unstable. I love all the support and advice you guys all have and share.

C, I went through almost everything you're feeling, as have many others. What I want you to realize is that just as we say WAS's follow a 'script', LBS's follow a 'script' as well. I'll have to search it up out of the archives later, but in the middle of is judgement of WAS's behavior and diagnosing their personality, family of origin, and listing out every way in which they were bad people to us. This isn't the DB method.

If you haven't read my last handful of posts on Julie H's threads please do so now. Please confirm that you've read them, I'd really think they will help show you're not alone, but also to help keep perspective.

Quote:

He doesn't understand why I won't even entertain the thought that I would be happier without him. Uhhh, wedding vows? Nothing?

Well, I still am DBing. But yes, at some point I won't. I'm sure I'll know when to give up.

Look at these two sentences. Any contradiction there? You were married for over 25 years? Be still. It's ok to detach. It's ok to let your love fade away. It's ok to move forward with your life in every way except romantically. But you keep DBing. "Some Point" shouldn't be in your thoughts right now. You have a long way to go, and the signing of a divorce is not the finish line.

Quote:

He just stubbornly plays the same tune...that I don't like him, never appreciated him, that he made me miserable. I've given up on defending my feelings; that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself. Pointless.

I have continued to validate and try to be understanding when he talks. But he didn't even call to let me know he wasn't going to follow through with what he said? And then acted like it was no big thing?

Who is this person?

On Julie's threads I told you who this person is. My question is this: How do you validate H when he says those things in bold?

In the sentences that follow you say that you have given up defending your feelings as that is pointless, and you refer to him as stubborn. If you feel this way you can't possibly be validating these statements well. Don't you see that you have one narrative based on your perspective and feelings, but he has another one that is equally true based on his perspective or feelings. And that he's basically telling you EXACTLY what he needs to change to be married to you and you're rolling your eyes at it and calling him stubborn, and then complaining that he left? Who's stubborn here? Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

It's far too easy to dismiss his narrative as wrong because he's the bad one that left, and you're the righteous one on the forums, so he's obviously wrong...but he's NOT. So please, show me you're not the stubborn one. I've got a ***Special Assignment*** for you. Please write out a few paragraphs explaining, from WAH's point of view, why he had to leave (without letting your own narrative of explanations, debates, or disagreements interfering). Make me cry for his pain and agree that he had to create some space for self preservation.

PS- is H in an active affair? I can't recall and don't have time to dig. Thanks and hang in C.

I want to edit my assignment. I want three parts:

1. What H tells you when he's explaining why he has to leave

2. Your responses to why that's wrong or doesn't make sense.

3. What you think his responses to your responses would be.

You've already got a start on this. You've listed a lot of what he says to you again and again. Flesh this out. And you've started telling us how you look at it, but flesh that out as well. But then #3...this is tough. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. I can help with this as well, but I want you to take it as far as you can first.

Thanks C.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

C, I went through almost everything you're feeling, as have many others. What I want you to realize is that just as we say WAS's follow a 'script', LBS's follow a 'script' as well. I'll have to search it up out of the archives later, but in the middle of is judgement of WAS's behavior and diagnosing their personality, family of origin, and listing out every way in which they were bad people to us. This isn't the DB method.

Zues, I will do your assignment in a separate post after the Super Bowl, but for now I feel that I should answer or clarify things in this post. I don't see anything "bad" in my H...except the fact that he chose to at the very least, cross some marital boundaries and form an EA with a mutual friend in hi employ. My list was more to show all of the stresses that I am aware of that are affecting him right now. I was also one.

If you haven't read my last handful of posts on Julie H's threads please do so now. Please confirm that you've read them, I'd really think they will help show you're not alone, but also to help keep perspective.

I will look them up tonight.

Quote:

He doesn't understand why I won't even entertain the thought that I would be happier without him. Uhhh, wedding vows? Nothing?

Well, I still am DBing. But yes, at some point I won't. I'm sure I'll know when to give up.

Look at these two sentences. Any contradiction there? You were married for over 25 years? Be still. It's ok to detach. It's ok to let your love fade away. It's ok to move forward with your life in every way except romantically. But you keep DBing. "Some Point" shouldn't be in your thoughts right now. You have a long way to go, and the signing of a divorce is not the finish line.

I guess I realize that. Venting. It has really only been a few months since separation, but for someone who usually procrastinates, he is moving pretty fast.

Quote:

He just stubbornly plays the same tune...that I don't like him, never appreciated him, that he made me miserable. I've given up on defending my feelings; that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself. Pointless.

I have continued to validate and try to be understanding when he talks. But he didn't even call to let me know he wasn't going to follow through with what he said? And then acted like it was no big thing?

Who is this person?

On Julie's threads I told you who this person is. My question is this: How do you validate H when he says those things in bold?

Well, as I've said in the posts surrounding the D filing...I fell apart. Fell back into asking why and asking him to please not do this. My validation was more in our calmer conversations, a few days later when I could pull it together. "I understand that my actions made you feel that I didn't like you, that I didn't appreciate you. I wish I could go back and change my behavior." But I will admit, during the emotional talks, I was trying more to explain why. I know better, but arrgh! Yes, it once again is me telling him he's wrong.

In the sentences that follow you say that you have given up defending your feelings as that is pointless, and you refer to him as stubborn. If you feel this way you can't possibly be validating these statements well. Don't you see that you have one narrative based on your perspective and feelings, but he has another one that is equally true based on his perspective or feelings. And that he's basically telling you EXACTLY what he needs to change to be married to you and you're rolling your eyes at it and calling him stubborn, and then complaining that he left? Who's stubborn here? Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

I actually have not voiced my feeling that he's stubborn. I also realize that I am stubborn in that I have not stopped taking offense at his leaving. I do understand it, I just don't like it. And I'm stubborn in that I don't want another guy...just him. It hurts to be rejected on this scale. It hurts even more that he acts so friendly with me; meeting my eye contact, smiling, joking with me, buying me lunch, but then nothing.

It's far too easy to dismiss his narrative as wrong because he's the bad one that left, and you're the righteous one on the forums, so he's obviously wrong...but he's NOT. So please, show me you're not the stubborn one. I've got a ***Special Assignment*** for you. Please write out a few paragraphs explaining, from WAH's point of view, why he had to leave (without letting your own narrative of explanations, debates, or disagreements interfering). Make me cry for his pain and agree that he had to create some space for self preservation.

I don't feel that he is bad at all...it just hurts that he chose to go to someone else to make himself happy and that I responded in such a way to drive him further away. I own that. I don't feel righteous, I feel scared and hurt. I'm trying my best to make sense of it all. I'm also trying to not be so emotionally reactive. But dry spells with no communication, then positive interaction with no R talk leave me in a questioning and emotionally vulnerable state. I don't know what kind of state he's in. He's always been very good at putting on a different face for others no matter what he feels inside, although sometimes he seems to try a little too hard to be seen as happy and fun. I know he just wants to be friends (or he said he did) because we still have to parent our adult children, but its hard to be friends with someone you are attracted to in EVERY way.

PS- is H in an active affair? I can't recall and don't have time to dig.

I actually don't know. His EA person has told me she doesn't want to step on any toes, but his activities seem to be more with her entire family (her H included) now, where before he was alone with her, texting, and calling often.

Thanks and hang in C.

Zues, Not to hijaack the thread, but I would like to get clarification on your opinion of validation. When the spouse starts talking about their re-invented history and starts spewing about "all the years of hell you put me through" and "I was a marty just faking it for years to try and save my marriage until I realized I just have to move on", "what about all YOU did that caused me to have an affair", "you haven't changed, you still can't see how this is all about you and has nothing do to with my affair. The relationship was over long before I found someone else"

So, there are two schools of thought there. One is you don't stand for nonsense and tell them something along the lines of, "I don't accept your altered version of history and won't listen to what you are trying to use to justify your unethical choices". And the other is validation of some kind.

The question is, which way is correct and how is that verbalized? If validation is your answer, what are examples of a few things you think you should say?

C- I understand you haven't voiced your responses...and if you did he wouldn't react well. It's more of an exercise about what his narrative would be if he was able to express himself maturely.

Maybe skip 1-2 and just focus on that. What would his feelings be in response to this:

that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself.

Originally Posted By: Flight

Zues, Not to hijaack the thread, but I would like to get clarification on your opinion of validation. When the spouse starts talking about their re-invented history and starts spewing about "all the years of hell you put me through" and "I was a marty just faking it for years to try and save my marriage until I realized I just have to move on", "what about all YOU did that caused me to have an affair", "you haven't changed, you still can't see how this is all about you and has nothing do to with my affair. The relationship was over long before I found someone else"

So, there are two schools of thought there. One is you don't stand for nonsense and tell them something along the lines of, "I don't accept your altered version of history and won't listen to what you are trying to use to justify your unethical choices". And the other is validation of some kind.

The question is, which way is correct and how is that verbalized? If validation is your answer, what are examples of a few things you think you should say?

Great question.

Personally I think you need to do both. Validate and boundary set/truth dart. They don't have to conflict.

The thing is, validation is all about acknowledging the other person's point of view. That is it. The challenge for LBS's is we really don't. But we expect them to understand and agree with ours. Seek not to be understood, but to understand. Someone has to step up and lead the way. And what I've learned is that when people feel understood and acknowledged, they feel so grateful and appreciative of that they want to reciprocate.

Take an exchange I had last week between me and my manager. Now, he is a great manager, and I am a great employee.

The background needed: I am a star employee that hit my goals in 2015 in year 1 on the team
The topic: Me being given a verbal warning for missing January goals

My manager and I had a scheduled 1:1. He spent most of the time working with me on my game plan, helping where he could, probing me and challenging my plans in certain areas, getting involved in a few spots to assist, and giving me feedback on what my plan was. This was all done in a respectful way. Then at the end he brought up the verbal warning.

He did it almost apologetically. He started by telling me he understood how things had played out. He acknowledged that I had gone through a lot in Nov/Dec with custody battles and divorce, and that he knew that impacted me. He also understood that the entire market was challenged during seasonality, and that being in a longer sales cycle that operates on pipeline, these factors created a storm in which poor results were hard to avoid.

Before he could even get to the part where he held me accountable for my actions, I objected. I told him that we all have personal lives, but that I was a professional, and I make no excuses for my management of my assignment. I told him that while business slowed down, I didn't do my part to anticipate the decrease in business and take enough proactive measures to offset the dip. I said I appreciated his consideration, but that I have a responsibility to my customers, my team, my company, and our shareholders, and I hold myself fully responsible for an unacceptable performance.

Funny, when you have a healthy debate both people end up saying what they think the other person should have said.

Suppose my boss had led by telling me that I had a responsibility to my team and company, that I should've been more proactive, that I am fully responsible for my performance...how do you think that would've flown? Most employees would've responded defensively (even though he's right) and even though I would've agreed, I would've left thinking he was a dick. Instead I am more appreciative of his leadership than ever and don't want to let him down.

So, flight...there's an example of how to validate and set boundaries. My boss has to deliver the verbal warning, he can't keep me on the team indefinitely if I don't perform, he can't allow me to spew excuses and keep missing targets...but the best way to get that is to validate all of the things that contributed to me being in that spot.

Same way, when a WAS is talking about why they left, or why they cheated...while that isn't appropriate behavior, if we go right to attacking and condemning the behavior and trying to show them why they're wrong and we're right, nothing good comes out of it. Their defenses flare up, and we only help them dig in their heels. But if we can validate all of the reasons WHY they felt they had to leave, while still maintaining our boundaries and beliefs...THAT is the balance we should look for.

As to when to do which, when to truth dart, when to validate, etc...that is more complicated. But I'll tell you this- truth darting should be done sparingly...and I don't think it should be done at all until there has been a foundation of serious validating. You have to establish in their minds that you know their mind, you know their feelings, and you care...then maybe they'll give some respect to what you say, even if they don't like it initially.

So truth darting has to follow validation. And in order to validate you have to see past your side of the debate. That's very, very hard for us LBS's when we're in so much pain. But it is critical and why I harp so hard on this topic.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

C- I understand you haven't voiced your responses...and if you did he wouldn't react well. It's more of an exercise about what his narrative would be if he was able to express himself maturely.

Maybe skip 1-2 and just focus on that. What would his feelings be in response to this:

that I made myself miserable, that I liked and loved him almost more than life itself.

Actually, this I have voiced, in response to what he has said. Before I learned to not have R talks, and also when I "fell apart" and had R talks anyway (he initiated some) after he filed, I heard again how he made me miserable. I told him that I made me miserable, not him. He actually made me happy. His response? No! You didn't like me and I made you miserable. There is nothing wrong with you, we are too different. There is someone out there that will be perfect for you, but I'm not your guy. You don't like me.
I will do your assignment. There has been a lot of discussion between us. No, I don't always truly validate his feelings. It is difficult to do when he tells me how he thinks I feel about him as if it is a fact. It is also hard to do when he tells me I don't need to change...that I am a nice person.
But I believe I will just agree with him from now on. Yes, I see how I made you feel that I didn't like you(no but). You're right, I can see how my actions made you feel unappreciated. That I didn't show you how much I appreciated the things you did for me. I see that you viewed our differences as too big to overcome or ignore. I understand that you don't want me to change my personality(again, no but).
Again, I will do the assignment. I have done some similar things in my journal, trying to learn how we got to this place. I have a lot to think about.

More posts on Julie's thread now.

So, Zues, I did some thinking. Some very painful thinking. One of the things H had said was that he had felt for a long time that I didn't like him. So I tried very hard to go way back when thinking about my behavior towards him...and I am ashamed of what I have come to realize.
I guess what I ended up doing last night was taking things he's said over the years and coming up with "his story" from his lips, his voice. No mind reading, believe it or not.

H is speaking.

I tried so hard to make her happy. She complained about being a SAHM, but didn't appreciate how hard I worked to allow that. The women I work with would love to have that opportunity.

She didn't enjoy the house we had on a lake...wanted her own house, not a rental. But I loved the lake, the fun, the neighbors, the location. I cried when we left.

I knew she loved horses and found her a horse, but she didn't want to board it. She wanted to have a house to keep it at. So I paid an architect that we liked to design our dream home. But I kept trying to find a place to just buy because I'd watched my parents build their home and didn't want to go through the stress or cost. She just kept saying, "we can do this!" even though I told her it scared me to death.

We built the house and then she complained about our neighbors, and how she couldn't make friends, and how the school functioned. She hardly ever rode the horses. She became very controlling and overly involved with the children. She was so worried about what people thought of her that if I showed signs of affection at school or sports functions, she pushed me away and told me to stop.

She doesn't like me or appreciate me.

I really enjoy the people I work with...they are like family now. I thought Ciluzen liked them, too. We've even become close to their friends and our group ski trips, group camping trips, and get togethers are so much fun! But my wife is not happy. She doesn't want to go ski much anymore, even if I ask her to just come up and read in the lodge so she can be with us. She has started complaining about how I don't pay attention to her in a group...but I enjoy having fun with everyone!

She just doesn't like anything about me. I need to make myself happy...despite how she feels.

Now she watches me like a hawk when I'm around other women. If I smile too much at them, she waits til everyone is gone and attacks me...tells me everything I did wrong...how she feels. She cries and makes me feel awful. Every time I try to have fun.

I work too hard to be treated like this when I'm trying to relax.

I come home to hear her fighting with the kids about homework. She tries to put healthy food in front of me...I don't always like it and tell her, but then she just prepares it differently the next time and asks me if I like it now. I don't like it! And she chatters on and on about inane stuff or kids I don't know, or high school gossip...I've had people talking all day to me. I want to relax! She never listens to me!

She doesn't like me.

I take 2 weeks off to organize a great vacation with friends and family, and once again, I don't pay enough attention to her. She confronts me on vacation and ruins it for me. Just ruins it. That is the last time I will take her with me on vacation. I'll go with friends. And now I come home from vacations to more tears and fighting. What's the point?

No matter what I do to try to be happy, she will cry about how it hurts her.I don't want to hurt her, but I want to be happy.

I know its going to be a problem, but I found a great deal on a vacation property.I have some friends and family to share the cost. I'm getting it, no matter what she says.
Now its every weekend...she shuts herself in the room at the property because...I don't know or even care why. I always go check on her and there's tears and things I did wrong. I try to make it up to her, but its getting really difficult. I'm drained.

She's jealous of my friend. This friend is...a friend. She's fun and brings great people into my life. She's busy and has a lot of things to talk about. I love having people in my life. I love big groups.The more the merrier. But why do I have to suffer for upsetting my W every time!? Why can't she just try to have fun? Now she says none of these people are her friends, they're all mine! Well, I make an effort! I call and text and push the get togethers! Why can't she just appreciate all she has? All I have given her?

I have a lot of stress in my life and I don't need this. My W has not been able to come up to the vacation home due to our D's wedding prep, and it has been peaceful and fun. The few times she did come up? Same issues.

I don't care anymore. I'm done. I don't need her. She doesn't like me. I can't make her happy. I don't think I like her anymore. She doesn't need to change because I'm done.I'm sure there is some guy out there for her that she will enjoy, but its not me. She hasn't liked me in a long time.

So, there you go, Zues. Not sure if this M is salvagable. I've been making changes, but for him to trust that I now know how bad my behavior was and actually do it? That's a big leap of faith for him. I have emotionally tortured him, without fully realizing it, for years.

I do love him, and very much like him. But my behavior, which was awful, appeared to say the opposite. My feelings about myself and where I should be and who I should be, made me act out. Sorry, at this point, doesn't quite cut it.

Wow, what a post C. Very powerful. From here it is pretty straight forward.

Think about what your 180s are based on your behavior in the M.
Make that your mission, to demonstrate those 180s in all you do in your life (not just for H)
If there are hang-ups that make doing those things difficult, there is no better time to grow than now.

Quote:

I heard again how he made me miserable. I told him that I made me miserable, not him. He actually made me happy. His response? No! You didn't like me and I made you miserable. There is nothing wrong with you, we are too different. There is someone out there that will be perfect for you, but I'm not your guy. You don't like me. ..No, I don't always truly validate his feelings. It is difficult to do when he tells me how he thinks I feel about him as if it is a fact. It is also hard to do when he tells me I don't need to change...that I am a nice person.

This is so powerful. You later pick this up, but he is not, actually, telling you how you feel as fact. He is telling you how HE feels. HE FEELS that he was insufficient to make you happy because he never felt you express your happiness to him. HE FEELS you don't need to change because he doesn't care anymore, or because he gives up and accepts that it's him with the problems but either way he doesn't like it anymore. Those feelings you can validate.

Great post C. I will read again later. Pretty profound stuff.

Cil, I could have written that word to word. I hope you get the chance I never to did, to DB the H*ll of this sitch and your marriage. I'm here cheerleading you Cil. Jellyxxx

Cil. I don't have much advice, but I wanted to say that I too could have written that post. Not nearly as eloquently as you did, but everything you wrote resonated very strongly with me. My H will constantly say it's his "fault" that I was unhappy. That I'm a nice person and I shouldn't change, we just can't be together. Like you I would come back with ....it's my responsibility to make myself happy, but H never seemed to hear it. Until I read your post and Zues' response to you I never could understand H's side. I really appreciate what you wrote Zues...it really does make so much more sense now. I wish I could have heard H when he said it.

You later pick this up, but he is not, actually, telling you how you feel as fact. He is telling you how HE feels. HE FEELS that he was insufficient to make you happy because he never felt you express your happiness to him. HE FEELS you don't need to change because he doesn't care anymore, or because he gives up and accepts that it's him with the problems but either way he doesn't like it anymore. Those feelings you can validate.

Zues, I need help. How do I validate those feelings? Our only real R talks were when I broke DB protocol. I'm trying hard not to do that anymore. I'm almost sure it will happen as we go through the D process, but only almost as this is unfamiliar territory. Right now, in my limited interactions brought on by him, I am only able to work on eye contact, listening, and validating him in his feelings on work, other people, or topics of interest. It does allow for some 180s, but mostly in the area of showing I'm interested in him and attracted to him and willing to be a good listener. Suggestions?

Nothing to it, a baby could do it.

Do you know his love languages? Hint- what did he try to do to show his love for you? When he was really happy with ciluzen, what would he do to express that?

What are some things he likes about himself, that make him who he is? What does he want to be appreciated for?

Suppose, for a moment, that his love language was 'words of affection', and he was proud of his cooking. You could then find opportunities to show him verbally that you were happy with this part of him. At this point it would likely be staged around the kids. Like, "S told me that he couldn't wait to get to your place because he wants you to make his favorite meal. He always gets so happy when you make that for him! He's a lucky kid!"

Wow. YOU didn't say anything pursuing. You didn't say anything about you or him. BUT- you are showing him that you approve of him as a dad and as a person, that he is special, AND you are showcasing the skills of expressing verbal affection which is important to him in this example.

So fill me in on those details and let's talk about some ways you can show that 180.

When he was truly happy with me, I would get a bearhug. But his main love language was AOS. He knew himself so well, he often jokingly said, "give-giver, never take. That's me."

He would be happy making me a "special" coffee drink and bring it to me in the morning to show he cared. He'd wash my car. Vacuum once in awhile because "he found it relaxing" and knew I didn't.

He gave this to many people. He always helped people when they moved...even clients. He would mow our friends' lawns (riding mower) before a party. He loved to help people experience their first boat rides, teach them to water ski, help parents corral their kids on ski trips. He loved to organize trips, outings, and vacations. He loved to play bartender for all of our friends and man the barbecue. He made a fantastic tri-tip.

Even after we separated, he came immediately over to fix any problem at the house. He set up a pair of skis to fit my boots when I told him I was going to revisit skiing. He has bought me lunch at the hill and skied with me. He told his L that he wanted this to be "the nicest D she ever handled".

I am going on a ski trip weekend with my daughter, SIL, and her friends from high school and another set of parents that I know, but don't know well. H is going on a ski trip with "Bubbles'" family, as he used to be we) has for the past 15 years. Same resort as my group. He almost apologized for this, as our trip was planned in November and they just booked theirs 2 weeks ago. But that's where Bubbles' kids wanted to go. He has said we'll probably ski together. He seemed slightly sad that he had invited our younger D and she couldn't go. Anyway, I plan on having a good time, but not sure how much interaction I'll have with H...though he does like our D's friends.

180s? Have FUN. Be part of the group...participate. Make an effort to be helpful. Interact joyfully with Bubbles' family and D's friends. Appreciate his efforts that I see.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated. I don't have any idea how much actual interaction I will have with H. Trying hard to not pursue. LRTing somewhat (not initiating contact). I do have to go to his office to exchange some things with staff members today. Who knows.

Also, just received Financial Declaration paperwork from L. How do I validate H with his AOS LL while going through D?

Having a down day. Stopped by H's office to give one of the ladies there something and to pick up some things ,as well. H never said hello or acknowledged that I was there. Don't know if he saw me or not, but I'm pretty sure he did...I was there for a bit talking to a few people. He was talking to a client, too, though. I never know what I'm going to get when I see him.

GAL activity after that. A little talk about my sitch, but I moved through that quickly.

I'm feeling anxiety about my ski trip. All of it is unfamiliar. I know everyone I'm going with, but not well enough (with exception of D25)to feel comfortable.I don't know the mountain or trails and its supposed to snow all weekend, so I might not be able to read trail signs. I am probably the weakest skier. And then there is the specter of H being there with the family I AM comfortable with.

He will want to see D25 and her friends. He has so much control over what ever situation he is in. Everyone loves him...it makes me feel like an outsider. I want to show positive interactions with him, but don't want to push or pursue. My D says, "just have fun". I'm going to try, but I just don't feel I have a place. The anxiety is eating at me.

Hi Cil,

What you describe above is an average day in my life. Daily I pull on every cliche I can to engage socially in a world that I am completely fearful of.

Feel that fear and do it anyway, grab life by the balls, white knuckle it, go hard or go home, life doesn't happen if you don't participate.

I often feel that on most occasions it is the anticipation that is actually worse that the event itself.

When you arrive stay with the safe people and safe places. I envy already how far you have come in pushing yourself outside your comfort. Your amazing life sits just outside of it.

And if the universe all lines up and you hold you tongue in just right position and clap your hands and believe in Tinkerbell, your H could be just on the outside of your comfort zone.

Believe in yourself, you a worthy of a great life and this ski trip is a lovely example of how great life can be, out in nature, with good people, breathing and living.

Don't over think and feel this, it sounds like a great adventure. I'll look forward to the Facebook pics

Much love Jellyxxx

Thank you so much for your kind, wise, uplifting words, JB. It always makes my day when I see that you've dropped by my thread.

I'm still floating in the air, Wile E. Coyote style, 10 ft away from the cliff with the ground so far below, running in place as fast as my legs will spin. I'm afraid if I don't stop DBing, that I will fall and fall hard. Right now I'm hovering and it is so surreal.

I want to have fun on this trip. I want to BE fun on this trip. I want H to see me and treat me as if nothing is wrong...like when we are alone at our ski hill. And I also don't want to see him in case he ignores me around everyone else, because that is sooo painful.

I can only think that if I go out of my way to show how much fun I'm having and how outgoing and cheerful I am with everyone else, that it will be like when I force eye contact and smiles on him...he can't help but respond in kind. Because that HAS been working. I need more energy. This, and the anxiety and depression that come with NC or his indifferent actions, is draining. Hot cold, enjoy you and ignore you.

Ciluzen-
I too am going through the D process (again), so I know how you are feeling. I've found that the best way to act when you have to be around your husband in a social group is to act like you are having the time of your life. Be the girl that he knew when you first met. We've all changed as we've grown older and life and kids have gotton in the way. Remind him through your actions how fun it was to be with you! It will prompt memories of old times and your history together that can never be erased. Don't worry about him, his reactions, how he treats you, or anything. Just have fun for YOU and D25.

You got this!

Nel

Ciluzen, how are you? Did you go on yohr ski trip yet? I was wondering how it went.

I'm back! Annnnd confused (nothing new there!), but I observed a few things.

I mostly had a good time and the skiing was great! D25's two high school buddies are former ski instructors, so they gave me tips and some great praise on how much I'd improved from what they remembered of my abilities years ago. They are so much fun to hang out with and the set of parents were fun, too.

I did have a bit of trouble with memories washing over me (skied this resort with H and kids and the family H was with this weekend many times) which caused a few teary moments. I regret this, as it affected my daughter even though I tried to hold them back.

I hadn't heard from H (except his text that he'd deposited money into my account) since a week ago Saturday when he unexpectedly skied and lunched with me. However he texted D the entire day we drove up and a few times our first morning there. He wanted daddy/daughter/SIL time. She was torn as she wanted to focus on me since she invited me, but he's her dad.

We accidentally ran into H, Bubbles, and Bubbles' H skiing together at one point. As H told D they were heading into lunch (ignored me) Bubbles gave me a cheery but cautious "hi". Now I know I was going to be super friendly to her (my goal), but I wasn't. I just managed a hi back and looked aloof (more probably pi##ed off). She was not with them later in the day, and H was a bit warmer to me as we skied a few runs together that time and he sat next to me on the lift.

The next day H's group and D and her group did morning skiing together and I joined D later. I had spent the morning talking with D25's daughter's mom. At some point we all met up with H and his group, but Bubbles and her H did not acknowledge me (or me them) and they chose to go back. At this point, H decided to be Ciluzen's good ol'H again...jokes, smiles, and telling me where to go and what to do. I decided to ski past him and show that I was able to ski just fine and find my own way down to whatever lift we were going to.He actually told people how good I'd gotten and was impressed that I never complained (180's, maaaan!). His smile kept getting wider. Then we decided to leave and the veil dropped. Back to cold indifferent H, even to D and SIL. Just a quick goodbye.

So,observations:

1)My D is struggling with our split. She loves skiing with her dad, but as much as he kept promising to have daddy/daughter/SIL bonding time this weekend, he always had the others in tow. He even asked her to do the early runs on Sunday...just them. But when she and SIL got to the lift, he was already riding up with other family! She told him later that not only did he ditch her, but that she felt he was replacing our family with Bubbles'.

2) H is struggling. He is almost desperate in his attempts to control everyone and MAKE them have fun. HIS way. Even the group I was with. It was ringing false. He also was drinking a lot (basically drank his flask dry by the time I met him at noon).

3)H still feels the need to control/take care of me/ try to make sure I'm happy. First run together he shouts to me, "you're with me! Come on!" Then quickly corrected to, "I mean...if you want to..." almost sheepishly. I did, but he felt the need to give me instructions constantly...so I often just did what I wanted. Didn't argue or complain; just skied.

4)Bubbles and her H seemed to notice this as well. I don't know if they chose not to ski with us because they thought I wanted that, because they wanted to let H and I have time together, or because they are angry with me; but when H asked who he was in charge of (referencing the teens with them), Bubbles said irritably "no one. They can find their way around without you!" Then got on the lift.

5) I have felt that everyone just didn't have a big issue with H's behavior...divorce and male/female friendships being so common. No one except my D's and my close friends have expressed outrage at his closeness to Bubbles and how often he was alone with her. But on this trip I realized that others had thought his behavior (I found that others had seen them alone or at functions without me)crossed lines.
And I believe (trying not to mindread) that Bubbles was trying to be truthful when she said she was trying not to step on anyone's toes right now. I had told her how I felt, and I noticed she had her husband with her skiing a lot (others in my group confirmed it).

6) It was hard at first, but I was able to get past my need for H this weekend a bit. I had fun. I had good conversation. I could picture myself a bit with a life without him. Do I WANT that? No. But I can see it through a pinhole if I squint.

Sorry for the book. And thank you to those who check on me and support me. These boards, I believe, are truly life savers. If not marriage savers. I realize as I read other's stories how awful this experience can be and how helpful putting my own story down can also be. I hope it can be as helpful to someone else, either through the shared similarities, the support that is seen, or the various great ideas and advice on each post.

Reaaaaally miss the edit button.

Originally Posted By: ciluzen

The next day H's group and D and her group did morning skiing together and I joined D later. I had spent the morning talking with D25's daughter's mom.

daughter's=friend's.

Sheesh!

Also, H called me this afternoon. He said he wanted to make sure we made it home. Proceeded to talk about the weekend and chit-chat about everyone; my group, his group, rides home, food. Brought up that D had said it (Pres. Day ski trip) just wasn't the same. I agreed and said it never would be again. This is the first time he's called me since the night after the papers were delivered.

Keep showing him how cool and collect you are. Make the most of these convo's and always come across as serene and happy.

Originally Posted By: Thornton

Keep showing him how cool and collect you are. Make the most of these convo's and always come across as serene and happy.

I'm trying, Thornton. It is hard to go from nothing (NC from me) to random calls or "dates". When he was talking about his weekend, it was a friendly conversation.

But I really am starting to think that he is in MLC. I visit those boards and see so many similarities. Yes, I acknowledge my part in the marriage issues, but there is something more here.

His behavior this weekend and at other times shows someone desperately trying to control a situation and other people, despite their wishes. He was TRYING to have fun. Not just having it. Maybe when I was there H was trying too hard to show ME he was having a good time...without me. He seemed to want to focus on me much, but not all, of the time. He also complimented me (to others, within earshot) on my abilities and lack of complaining (I did used to complain or act scared or unsure about where he was leading me or my ability to ski certain runs). But whatever it was, H did not relax. I don't know.

I'll just keep on keeping on. I will show him cool and collected, serene and happy. I will focus on H in our convos, listening and validating where I can. And no R talk.

Cil-
I finished reading your entire story. Wow. I'm so sorry about the development with your H. I agree with you that your husband is in MLC. I hear all the time from my H, "I'm just not happy." They do think by getting out of the marriage that they will magically be happy. It is heartbreaking. I know you are working so hard on yourself. It is very impressive to me how introspective you've been and how you've owned your mistakes. Now you really have to focus just on YOU. I like what Thorton said.

Nel

Hi Ciluzen!

WOW! You rocked DBing on that trip, well done you! It sounds like you had a good time and didn't let H see any signs of anything other than happy Ciluzen having a great time!

You are becoming so great at reflecting on the situations with your H and adjusting your DBing efforts. Can I come over for a master class please?

Hugs, IP

Thanks Nel and IP for the support (and I LOVE hugs!). No master classes here. Just fumbling and stumbling like everyone else.

Talk about focusing on me...

My lawyer just kind of yelled at me for not knowing what to ask for in D. Told me I needed to get in a different mind set before she even considered trying to schedule mediation. Maybe I should "go away for a few days" to get my mind right because she can't help me get what I want if I don't know what I want.

I just got back from a few days away! And I want my H! Pshhh.

So, I had to write an email detailing what I wanted and how I wanted assets split up. S$%t just got real. Its so...vulgar. I sound so greedy in my email. But I was told to aim high. Now I feel so dirty, like I just did the biggest 180 of them all and I don't even know who wrote that.

I feel like calling H to apologize ahead of time..."Its not me! My L made me do it!"

Its a starting point, but ick.

Can't we just sit down and hash this out like real people?

Feeling quite low again. I will keep DBing, despite what I'm hearing from others IRL.

I just am starting to doubt the small changes I think I'm seeing in H. Everyone keeps telling me his mind is made up, move on. He's just a nice guy and is treating me nicely or that he's being nice out of guilt. He has said a few times that he wants to be friends, but I'm pretty sure he won't treat me like he treats his friends. He doesn't just call to chat or hang out. So, I don't believe that. Besides ,how do you just turn off love and intimacy?

By analyzing each interaction, I'm failing at detaching, but there is something in me that fears letting go. I see that he sees some of my changes, but is that ever going to be enough to turn him back? I know these changes are for me and they have helped, but still...my goal really is to R. My Ds both have said to focus on me and stop thinking of H. They are pretty confused about their dad's behavior, too, but they are telling me to just stop worrying about him. I know they are right.

My interactions with my L shook me up. That fear of HUGE change in my life rather than this limbo (bad enough) almost have me paralyzed with fear. Going back to school for a more advanced degree at this point in my life is daunting. So much time. Added stress. Moving into a new place, FINDING a new place, packing up and repairing this house for sale, selling a lot of our stuff....so much to do.

I read about others doing this on here all of the time. How do you find the energy to completely reinvent yourself at a time you thought you would be preparing for your "golden years" with the person you loved? I remember joking with H after my Ds wedding this summer, "one down and one to go...then we'll finally be alone!". That must have sent the fear of God through his heart!

Sorry for the venting, just really feeling anxious right now about the reality of the D process.

Originally Posted By: ciluzen

My interactions with my L shook me up. That fear of HUGE change in my life rather than this limbo (bad enough) almost have me paralyzed with fear. Going back to school for a more advanced degree at this point in my life is daunting. So much time. Added stress. Moving into a new place, FINDING a new place, packing up and repairing this house for sale, selling a lot of our stuff....so much to do.

I read about others doing this on here all of the time. How do you find the energy to completely reinvent yourself at a time you thought you would be preparing for your "golden years" with the person you loved? I remember joking with H after my Ds wedding this summer, "one down and one to go...then we'll finally be alone!". That must have sent the fear of God through his heart!

Sorry for the venting, just really feeling anxious right now about the reality of the D process.

Wow C....we are on the same journey unfortunately in terms of where you are at with trying to detach but can't. Your post hit home

To be honest it is very hard to do what you are doing and we are trying to do in DB'ing, detaching, doing stuff for ourselves while you deep in your heart want your man/woman. I just have gotten there due to a toxic in home living situation and lawyers making it too real

Limbo-yeah..it has sucked right? and taken the life out of you? Tired...lost weight? yup. Mind in a fog? check. Day to day is difficult....good day..bad day..cry day..fun day..check. sound familiar :-)

I am with you in the change part. Comfort sometimes is good and soothing....in life. You have your routine..things are good..or OK. And now not so much.

Just so you are not alone, I have to figure out getting new car, all the D stuff with financials, vacation with my D, my new job that is killing me and oh yea...a new place to live that somehow allows pets and somehow is in /near her school and oh yea....has enough room and i can afford. Cant find one

So all I can tell you is that you and I can't change our H/W and need to let them go. I am doing it...you can do it. It hurts...it stinks...but I will tell you there are days now I have a new giddyup in my step ....for that day..it feels good. Then a day I cry or weep like a little boy

So I am almost 50 and will be setting out on a new journey. You can do it and it will take time...and who knows what the future holds for you but you have it in front of you and people to support you which is awesome

rich, I'm so sorry you are going through this all. too. It really does bite.

Everything you've said is spot on for me, as well. I'm turning 49 in two weeks. Not what I pictured for this bday. I can't imagine going through this with my daughters still at home. Mine are mostly grown and out of the house.

I suddenly have so much anger...not just at H. I actually understand the pain and depression (possibly an mlc) that is driving him. But at the situation. At the people who I thought were friends but still surround him and do activities with him but not me and then periodically send a text like "thinking of you! :)" as if that makes it all better. At boundaries crossed with no guilt or apology from another friend. At the lies and selfishness. Argh! Venting again.

Cil-
I can so relate to what you are feeling about the D. We are both about the same age, and I too have been waiting for this time in our lives to be just us again. Our youngest daughter is a senior, so in the fall I'll be an empty nester like you except I'll really be alone. I'm heartbroken that H is off on his own instead of with me.

I also feel that way you do with the D proceedings. A word of advice that my L shared with me. Take the emotion out of it and treat it like a business transaction. I would almost have an anxiety attack every time I went into the L office or got a letter from the court. My L just keeps repeating treat it like a business transaction. It's hard, but I try to remember that. I also told my H whenever he questioned a proposal that I had to protect myself financially. He seemed to understand that.

I remember reading one poster's story, I believe it was Nitty, about going through mediation. She had not ever dealt with the financials in their marriage, but when the time came she stood up to her husband and presented numbers that were fair. The mediator told Nitty that her husband was really impressed and surprised at her self-confidence. It made him see her in a different way. There is more to the story, but on her last post that I read they were reconciling.

I can tell you are a strong woman. You have to remember that we can't control this situation. I think that is one of the hardest things. Treat it like a business transaction. You've got this.

Nel

Thank you, Nel. That actually is very helpful advice. I've been so caught up in trying to not offend H and show him my 180s that I've been short changing me. I will think of this as a business transaction from now on.

In fact, as much as I want to turn this around, I'm realizing that if it happens at all it won't be anytime soon. I have to let go of H. I will leave that door cracked open, but I've got to get my head straight and move on.

I had a chat with my oldest (D25) last night. She is exhausted from work, moving, being a newlywed, and also stressed out about being in the middle of H's and I's M issues. She said she wanted her mom back. I then really realized how I had let my hurt, my pain, affect my life and everyone else around me. I need to stop. NEED to.

New goals I am creating:

1) Be a mom again to my daughters. I've heard it loud and clear from both of them; they need their mom, even if I have to bite my tongue off when they mention their dad. I need to listen to them for awhile; not show them victim-mom in pain or confusion. They have their own adult problems.

2)I need to allow them to forge a relationship with their Dad WITHOUT me. It hurts, but I don't want them to pull away from either of us; we both love them and they love us. We (H and I) are just not a we anymore so there may be many times the kids do things with us separately. Its ok.

3)I need to stop thinking so much about what H thinks, what he's doing with others, if he will call, will I run into him at certain events, etc. It doesn't matter anymore. I will still be pleasant, friendly and cheerful with smiles and eye contact; but I should be anyway to everyone. No preparation needed.

4) GAL the heck out of my life. I have A LOT of interests, from reading to art, sports, outdoor activities, fine dining, movies, theater, lectures... Now I finally have the time (maybe not the budget, though).

5)Pursue my dreams...I had some, once, that were all mine...

6)Speak to an occupational counselor. What advanced degree should I use to enhance my BA and make it more usable, possibly in the psyche/behavior field. I need a better job but one that interests me as much as the one I have.

7) Start thinking of areas to live in; apartment, condo, house? How much? I have a dog. What do I need to make me comfortable?

8) Find new friends,work on the ones I have, and reconnect with the old...I've been trying to communicate more since H always did. Now I need to put myself out there and push those relationships I want...make those connections so that I'm never this lonely again!

9) Take care of myself. Looked hard in the mirror and was shocked. Got on the scale and did some calculations. Yeah...I'm not eating enough for what the stress is burning away. People tell me I look great, but its winter here. I can't wear sweaters and down vests before too long.

Yeah. I need to REALLY focus on me and my needs. My H will still have his job, favorite house, vehicles, friends. He's not really concerned with me, right now. But my life is going to be VERY different. I need to stop crying about it to everyone and start preparing. What's that quote? "Get busy living or get busy dying." Something like that.

Cil-
I love your goals. You do such a great job in thinking those through.

I've found that it's easiest to take everything one day at a time; otherwise it becomes overwhelming. One day at a time and stay busy. It helps to keep your mind off everything.

Nel

Don't any of you guys feel bad at 50, be happy it's not 10 years from now. That certainly doesn't make it better, I'm just saying it could be worse.

It's pretty awesome losing your friends - but I did that to myself. I allowed most of our friends to be made by my W in her business. It was so important that we always socialized with her clients and office mates. So I slowly let go of my end - and as the W rewrote history, I turned out to be an anti-social monster.

I was never a social butterfly, my W was the one who did that. But she counted on me to do the entertaining, cooking, planning etc.

Worse, I moved to an area for her, to be close to her Grandparents. Again, cutting myself off from my old life.

Losing weight as well as half of my brain sounds pretty familiar. I now officially weigh less than I did in High School.

You are far, far ahead of where I'm at in getting your act together. Or more specifically at least you've thought about these tiny details - and that helps people like myself just starting the process.

We never had kids - a blessing and a curse. Although by I'd be worried about the grand-kids.

Anyway I didn't mean to butt in - I just want you to know it's helpful to see and hear these things for us newbies. The thought of going through this as a business transaction is mind-boggling, but that's certainly how the L's look at it. I could never understand how L's can go at each other in court and have beer afterwards - that's the mindset I need.

I just hope I can get to the point where I can actually begin to focus on things again. Sometimes my Mother with Alzheimer's seems to have it together more than I do.

So, I guess I'm just journaling and staying current on my own situation.

Went to a lecture by a very well known person in the behavioral science field...loved it! During the lecture I received a call from D25(told her I was in lecture) and a text from H asking me to call to discuss D25s move the next day. When I called he sounded exhausted (or drunk? He's been drinking more, I'm realizing). We agreed to meet at my house (used to be "our house") at a certain time.

He arrived 1/2 hour later than planned, grumpy, and complaining that he couldn't find his Bluetooth set. He apparently wore it the night before when talking to me and thought he lost it in the couch or bed, wherever he fell asleep (wha?). I stayed pleasant and assured him it would turn up eventually.

At D's house we loaded up our car and truck while everyone else was still arriving...we still work well as a team. We helped load other stuff for awhile, but ended up taking our loads to the new house an hour away and unloading. We contacted D and realized that crew wouldn't be leaving for awhile, so H suggested we go to lunch.

We joked around about a dive-looking place and decided to take a chance and go there. On the way, H joked about ducking into a motel we passed. I laughed and told him, "If I thought you were serious about the offer, I would". He just looked at me. I smiled...hey, I was having a good time!

Food was great, locals hanging out were fun, I was having fun bantering with the others in the pub (another 180 for introvert me). H asked me what I wanted then ordered what HE wanted to be split between the two of us...just like normal. I let it go, but that kind of bugged me. I wonder if he was trying to see if he could still control me a bit?

D still wasn't on her way, so we drove around her neighborhood looking at houses (artsy/resort town with funky houses) then walked around down town. H wanted to get coffee so we stopped at a fun looking place and I ordered for us both and paid. We chatted a bit and he started texting and smiling...so I pulled out MY phone. 180 for me. I would have asked who he was texting or what was so funny before, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

Decided to check out a sushi bar we'd never seen there. Had fun trying a few fun cocktails and a few rolls (way too much food today) and again, joking around and talking to the bartender. I enjoy the reaction of others now when I'm having fun and smiling a lot, making eye contact and talking. This is new for me. A complete 180.

Funny thing, at one point H tried to order a drink for me, and I had to change the order to something I wanted...it was not something I would EVER have liked (I know who would, though). He looked at me, surprised. Another 180, I realized. Making my own choice...not just following him.

We went back to finish with the move (everyone had shown up by then). When we drove home separately, H never called me on the way (would have before). He needed to change over to his car at "my" house. I beat him home and by the time he got there, his demeanor had changed again. Tired, sad, and critical of how D had chosen to orchestrate her move (not organized his way). The whole time, he was cleaning my kitchen sink(?)(not dirty). He apologized for "making" me help him move couches. I had to laughingly tell him I CHOSE to move them. He also (looking sad) commented on how he really didn't help much today(?) We got there an hour before everyone, loaded our vehicles, packed up others', broke stuff down, unloaded everyones' vehicles...hmmmm.

Interesting take. I never let go of my "I'm having a good time demeanor...with anyone, today. I worked hard and know my D appreciated the help. I also know she appreciated us not being awkward or me getting emotional about her dad being there. But I won't.

Its funny. I really don't care what he does or thinks right now. I had a good time today. He seemed to as well...most of the time. But he really doesn't seem happy. I actually am ok. I'm moving on.

That is super cool, Cil,

Great job keeping the PMA around H. It doesn't appear to be a bed of roses for him.

I think you are doing great with detaching and H is noticing. Keep going, you're on the right track.

Quick update to journal. H called me this morning...

Said he called because he was heading up to ski and I was the only one he knew who would be awake. He mentioned he stopped by my favorite bakery to get a pastry and coffee (he did?) but it wasn't open yet.

He mostly just called to chat. He did complain a bit more about D's new house (too small, too expensive...I think he's more bothered that its too far away).

Talked about the places we ate, an office issue, his family.

Brought up some interesting financial info...not sure if he was testing me to see what I would say. Had to do with a loan and some info he needed to provide (I have it,he doesn't). It also sounded a bit like what my L asked me to provide, though, so I told him he also had to do that to get a D. He seemed surprised. I told him I was surprised his L wouldn't have asked him to give that info before filing. He said he tried to talk to her as little as possible. My BS-o-meter was buzzing. Why be secretive about financials that I have, though? I know I'm the one that was in charge of our bills and finances, but...Is he really that clueless about our finances? Or is he trying to do something else? I even have his BC and SSC here (most of his stuff is here).

Cil-

Awesome job on showing your 180s for your H! I bet you totally have him thinking now. I also like that you were so upbeat and cheery the whole time. He has to be thinking about that, too. It must have been difficult to be working with him all day and it seeming so normal. I'm impressed with the behavior you showed him. Well done!

"Its funny. I really don't care what he does or thinks right now. I had a good time today. He seemed to as well...most of the time. But he really doesn't seem happy. I actually am ok. I'm moving on." (I can't figure out how to do the quote in a box...)

I really wish I could get to this stage. I NEED to get to this stage.

Nel

It will happen, Nel. You will get to this stage. I'm still wobbly, though. Just try hard to picture yourself happy. What will it take and how will you make it happen? Instead of drowning in the sadness of being alone, picture it as a vacation alone to do anything you want. Then think of what you could see yourself achieving with no distractions. Focus on yourself in that way. Just change the way you look at being without H.

Just got ANOTHER unexpected call from H. Once again, about nothing,really. But quite nice to talk about nothing.

Partway through the call he told me that he just came back from our vacation home. He had stopped by after skiing to clean it up for our friends who were using it this week for their anniversary "get away". I asked if he had gotten them flowers (he loves to put fresh flowers out) and he had. He then told me he put on the card that they were from both of us. THAT surprised me. The "us" part. I told him how sweet that was and that I thought that was such a nice thing to do. Really, it was.

Good talk. No expectations.

So, after having a rather disappointing call from my mom where she wrote a note in a bday card to my H and giddily told me about it (totally not helpful to me but thought she was being so), H called.

He had just left his L's office. He kept apologizing and saying he didn't know why he was calling, just kept talking around things and talking about how we knew each other so well and were familiar, etc, etc. I asked if he felt anything else and he couldn't answer. I said "I get it...you don't care for me that way anymore" and he said he couldn't say that. I told him about how I had a good time this weekend and he said he did too. He just kept saying we were familiar with each other and comfortable. If he needed help with something, he knew he could count on me helping and "getting" him. We just know each other so well. He still says he doesn't know how to feel...or why he was calling. ugghhh.

So, I guess I just shrug this off and go to my divorce care meeting tonight. I didn't beg or lead. I'm sure I wasn't chipper. I did ask him why he did or said things. Why he didn't want to work on things. He really didn't know. He just seemed confused and worried about coming across as a b7st%rd (his word, not mine). At least I know when my mediation date is. He told me. My L has yet to let me know.

Cil,

I take this as a positive. He's unsure. That's better than being absolutely positive he wants to D, right?

Be the lighthouse. Keep the patio light on and be a woman that only a fool would leave.

Stay off the R talks and just be fun and breezy with him. Show him what he is walking away from.

Man, am I ever trying. I shouldn't have said a thing. I should have just validated his feelings about how yucky he felt after dealing with his L.

He says he doesn't want a D but he also says he does. He wants to hash stuff out about our D together before we even mediate. He still says I "left the marriage first". I COULD NOT AGREE with this. I told him I never did, and still haven't, but that I agree I must have made him feel that way, and that I regret that and am sorry. He had said right before that that I must be having more trouble dealing with this than him because I'm still in the (our) house. I said I'm having more trouble dealing with this because it was your decision to leave and I based my life on loving you and spending the rest of our lives together.

So much for no R talk, but it was kind of started by him.

So, I was feeling so "detached"...actually feeling good about letting H go for awhile there. Then this weekend...so much positive contact. I still felt ok about being alone, but there was that hopefulness creeping in...

Then my mother had called to say she made a comment in his bday card about hoping he finds what he's looking for in the year ahead...he hadn't received it yet. She was just so proud of herself for writing that. I lost it. I explained that I was trying so hard not to push him by commenting on R or judging anything and here she was doing just that. "Stop trying to fix this. Its not your job and he will feel pushed". I made her feel bad and got myself all upset and emotional and then realized how really not detached I still was. That made me even more upset.

And that was when H called.

The thing that H said that most stands out to me is the comment about how I must be having such a hard time with this because I'm still in the house. It replays over and over in my head. Why? Because it discounts my feelings for him. Its part of his idea that I don't like him and had "left the marriage" a long time ago. If I get out of the house, the only thing that ties us together other than our kids, then I'll realize how I am just stubbornly holding on to a false feeling of love for him.

I know that nothing I say can change this idea. He has convinced him of it over a long time. I can only try to stay away from R and continue to show him kindness. But he seems pretty entrenched.

My Divorce Care meeting last night brought me down even more. I was the only separated person; everyone else had been D for 2-11 years. They were still dealing with it, even though some had gone on to new R or even M. Some were the ones who left and were still having regrets, even though there were horrible, unsafe situations. I will still go for the info and support, but it almost left me hopeless for my own future happiness.

The unknown is so scary, isn't it?

We become so entrenched in our R's and they provide a sense of comfort and stability. When they end, we are left dangling in the wind. ALL of our routines change, nothing feels safe anymore, and the future appears bleak.

I have the same fears, Cil. I think we all do.

I think you are in a good place in your sitch. IMO, you are ahead of the curve. Let's look at the positives, shall we?

1. You still interact with your H and have opps to validate him.
2. Your H is unsure if he wants to D.
3. Your H does NOT seem happy now that the D has been filed, there's no sense of relief for him.
4. You have a LONG history with H, that's not easy to replace.
5. You are here, working on your marriage. Working on yourself.

^^^that's all really good stuff, Cil.

I don't even have the opportunity to chat with waw. There's nothing that binds us. The house is in my name, both our children are from previous relationships. There's really no reason for us to talk. I WISH I had an opportunity to interact with her.

Flip it in your mind to look at the positives here. And allow yourself to feel good about them.

Cil, I know how you feel. In my Rebuilding group I'm the one for whom this is most raw. Like Thornton said, you are still DBing and you may turn this around. Keep working on your marriage. Have positive interactions with H. It will keep him guessing. But hold tight to your boundaries, too. Be strong.

Originally Posted By: Thornton

The unknown is so scary, isn't it?

We become so entrenched in our R's and they provide a sense of comfort and stability. When they end, we are left dangling in the wind. ALL of our routines change, nothing feels safe anymore, and the future appears bleak.

I have the same fears, Cil. I think we all do.

I think you are in a good place in your sitch. IMO, you are ahead of the curve. Let's look at the positives, shall we?

1. You still interact with your H and have opps to validate him.
2. Your H is unsure if he wants to D.
3. Your H does NOT seem happy now that the D has been filed, there's no sense of relief for him.
4. You have a LONG history with H, that's not easy to replace.
5. You are here, working on your marriage. Working on yourself.

^^^that's all really good stuff, Cil.

I don't even have the opportunity to chat with waw. There's nothing that binds us. The house is in my name, both our children are from previous relationships. There's really no reason for us to talk. I WISH I had an opportunity to interact with her.

Flip it in your mind to look at the positives here. And allow yourself to feel good about them.

I see the positives as you outlined them, Thor. They look good on paper, but H is so stubborn about his idea that I didn't like him. He even had a hard time saying we had a good time this weekend, but finally came up with us knowing each other so well and being so familiar and comfortable together.
Isn't that a GOOD thing?

He couldn't explain why he felt the need to call me twice on Sunday or why he called after leaving his L. Like he was confused by his own actions.

I'm such a mess today. I even cried a few times at work which I haven't done (I have missed a few days when really depressed). I don't know why. I was feeling ok, then I guess hope happened and now I feel hopeless again.

I know you say to look at the positives, but I guess I need to get GALing and prepare to get out of my house. I see it needing to be somewhat packed up soon.

Originally Posted By: NYGal

Cil, I know how you feel. In my Rebuilding group I'm the one for whom this is most raw. Like Thornton said, you are still DBing and you may turn this around. Keep working on your marriage. Have positive interactions with H. It will keep him guessing. But hold tight to your boundaries, too. Be strong.

Thanks for stopping by NYGal. I'm trying to be strong. I can't get past all of the losses; family, friends, house, lifestyle...especially H. Its almost like he doesn't believe he COULD be loved by me, or anyone, for that matter. I'm really having a hard time with why he holds on so strongly to this idea. I will continue to have positive interactions, but it is tearing me up emotionally. I'm tired and only hope I can stay stronger than I feel.

I know it's tough, Cil.

Your H sounds like he is suffering from depression. The back and forth and confusion are all signs. Possible MLC.

The thing about depression is that you can't fix it. He is the only one that can do anything about it.

You can validate him, though. Allow him to feel understood.

I really do see some positives in your sitch. Many others here are in much worse predicaments. I think you still have a measureable chance at turning things around.

That doesn't mean things might be bumpy for a while but I see your H as someone that's not dead set on leaving you forever.

Hang in there, Cil. Cry it out if you have to.

Thanks, Thor. I have been. I will keep the positives in mind. You are a very supportive person. Thank you so much for popping by my thread and listening during my weak moments. It helps to keep me going.

Cil,

It's such a roller coaster isn't it? I agree with Thornton that there is a lot of positives to have hope. I can also understand your frustration and tears. First, we've made so many mistakes and want to have that second chance to reconcile. Second, we read into every single interaction. My H and I were in such a bad place over a month ago. I started db'ing 4 weeks ago and we are finally civil again and communicating. So I'm reading into every single time we meet or talk. He's filed and told me he doesn't want to reconcile. But I'm still hopeful and I try to "mind read" and dissect every word we say to one another. Obviously, that is not detaching. And it just makes things worse. Now I try to pat myself on the back when I detach and don't analyze every little thing.

I think you are doing everything you can. There are signs of hope. Keep validating and understanding. Sounds like it could be mlc. But he needs to figure out that on his own. Hopefully he just needs time and space to get there. Stay strong. We are pulling for you.

Cil, my friend, how are you doing? Keep DBing. I agree with broke in that this is a rollercoaster ride, and you have to hang on to survive. Try not to analyze every single interaction because it'll drive you crazy and get you off track. I think someone called it "paralysis by analysis." Just keep being the best YOU that you can be. You can not control any decision that your H makes, and I DO think it is a good sign that he is unsure.

I also don't like how everyone in my life is telling me to "move on." I think it was Cadet who posted to "move forward" instead. I like that so much better. Keep focusing on yourself and try to let your husband figure out his own stuff. I know it's so hard. I'm going through the same thing.

Nel

Thank you Nel, broke, and Thornton.

I had a rough couple of days. The despair started to overwhelm me a bit.

I got an absolutely wonderful "thank you" text from D23 2 days ago (she has struggled with some mental/emotional issues and is getting back on track)and it also fed into my emotional state. Thanked me for being a wonderful mom, praised me for all of my support and everything I did to help her succeed in life...what every mom wants to hear.

But I think this rollercoaster just was taking its toll. I went from feeling pretty good about not caring what H was up to, to analyzing his behavior this weekend, to being ok again with knowing I wouldn't hear from him during the week, to his odd call after leaving his L...just too much. Then add the intrusiveness of my mother, the needs of my D25, the sweet text from D23. Too much emotion. Of all kinds.

I need to sit down and rethink my goals, ala Thornton. Those were great goals, BTW.

I need to throw myself into the financials and appraisals requested by my L to prep for mediation and temp.orders. I need to behave as if it is a business transaction. I need to protect myself and make sure I will be ok.

I need to DB...hard. Get back into GAL for me. Stop being so darn hopeful. Yes there are positives, but I can't rely on a dramatic cinematic happy ending turn around. That's as much a fantasy as H's belief in me not loving him. I need to "move forward".

I do question whether my behavior this weekend was DBing. I was trying to show H my 180's (more secure, outgoing, willing to participate and have a good time, be more independent, adventurous, ...happy), but was I also allowing him to "cake eat"?

What do you think? Pull back more? Keep doing what I'm doing? I'm starting to feel like my head is stuck in a pillowcase and I can't see where I'm going.

C
I saw your call and I will work your thread. Please allow a little marinade time.

V

Hey Sweet Cil, I haven't been around much, but just wanted you to know, you are someone I always check in on. I am at work at the moment so can't write very much, but felt like I needed to say I am still here, still reading and championing the amazing, glorious woman you are!

Lots of love Jellyxxxx

Cil-
I know what you mean by despair. Must be something in the air this week.

Did you read this post by Zues on hope's thread?

---------------------

So, all of the questions about "should I stand or not", or "should I have hope", or "am I stupid to have feelings for him", "I feel like he'll never change but I'm not sure", etc...none of them matter if they won't change your immediate actions.

And they shouldn't! No one should be making life changing decisions based on their emotions during a meltdown like this. So your actions should be to detach, GAL, 180, take care of yourself, and keep breathing. And to avoid destructive behavior that would burn bridges.

So when you ask what the difference is between detaching and giving up, I look at the actions, and since there is no difference in action, I say there is no difference between detaching and giving up. But I also look at standing for your M, and since there is no difference in your actions there, I say there is no difference between detaching and standing for your M. In fact, there is no difference between standing and giving up either, unless you change your actions as a result and go down a bridge burning destructive road.

So my advice is to give up on your marriage while you keep standing for it and do both while detaching.

-----------------------
I'm going to try this: giving up while standing for my marriage. We need to remember that we have no control over our H's actions. Just go about your life and keep busy. It worked for me last year, but I'm having a tougher time this time around. Let's pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and do this!

Nel

That is really great advice from Nel via Zeus ^^^^

I couldn't have said it better myself. I am sorry you have had an emotional ride these past couple days. What a gift from D23! I can only hope that I will one day get that from my boys as I try to take the high road during this D. Be strong - obviously, you are a very good mom - take solace in that and pat yourself on the back. I hope you feel better very soon. ((hugs))

Cil

I guess you are seeking my view because you know what I am going to say?

You have had wonderful advice from Zues and Jellyb and great support and a lot of their advice is in my post although in my own way. I want you to take this with the spirit of support I intend, often I bite my tongue because I sense the poster may not be ready to shift.

You are playing far too nice and as mentioned by V before being triangulated.

WH is clearly enthralled by Bubbles, and she is an absolute minx having her ego boosted by triangulating herself. I suspect her WH is amused by it. I also suspect that madam is minxing.

My lovely not only have you played along with this you gave it your blessing. Encouragement even.

You apologised to the princess bubbles, attended her parties and all of you are behaving like 15 year olds out dating.

WH is being made a complete idiot.

You can't nice WH back, nor can you buy little gifts or keep persuing. He will have to learn he is being had and strung along by a truly unpleasant POW.The only way to do this is for WH to learn what life is like without you.

Detaching isn't enough. Zues has said that to you over and over in his inimitable way.

Time to get real and start to DB. To apply Sandis guidelines deliberately.

The only way to stop the school girlie interactions is to grow a pair and let go of the emotional rope.

This WH has sacked you as his W. If your boss sacked you would you go back with chocolates and flowers giggling and showing a smiling face?

This sounds very harsh when reality is biting, I know this.

I would like to shake you awake.

This likely isn't what you want to hear and you can choose to skip merrily like Pollyanna into the sunshine.

Hugs

V

Thank you for taking the time to look at my thread, Vanilla.

Welcome Cil.

If it is ok with you then I would like is to examine how these interactions work. I always need a little marinade time.

There a couple of sitches on the board who have had these obvious minx interactions, Pinks OW had these traits as an obvious choice.

This isn't seduction but grooming, not in the sense of its word use with regard to children but with respect to manipulation of adults. Bubbles is a classic groomer style abuser, she grooms for her own ends, often inauthentically as without it these groomers are inauthentic. She is using smoke and mirrors, gaslighting techniques to disguise it. This isn't seduction.

Yet there is one key difference between seduction and grooming: The Latin root of "seduce" means "to lead away," and includes synonyms like "allure," "beguile," "entice," "solicit," and "lure." Related words are "entrap," "bewitch," and "captivate." While not entirely so, most of those terms carry negative connotations. Certainly the Latin root, "to lead away," sounds harmful.

Definitions for "grooming" include the rather sterile idea of readying someone for a specific objective ; it has as synonyms such words as: "prep," "fix," and "ready." Related words like "indoctrinate," "educate," and "train," are also cited. These words imply "grooming" is something good. And that is the rub, it's hard to detect and you question yourself.

And yes she is grooming you too.

Can you move into observer mode on this and see your interactions with bubbles as if on a movie screen and you are watching her. For instance does she reward with physical touch? Faux. Open body language, and resonant beaming 'innocent' smiles? Head tilts and duping delight. These types of women are often quite sad from abuse, being 'daddy's' little girl, spoilt or groomed themselves which is how they learned the behaviour.

There are body language implications in this, these 'tricks' are easy to learn and there are ways that this can be mirrored back or copied for use with your WH.

You may not out Minx a Minx although we can consider out foxing her.

It's time to be fox not a lion or a faun.

Does this resonate? Is this something worth examining further?

V

Oh and if I haven't yet made my thoughts clear, this grooming isn't for the sole purpose of lurve and an A. This is for deeper slightly more obtuse motives.

This style of Mata Hari OW toys with affection like a cat plays with a mouse. For pay rises, the company car, promotions, money, status, to be the bosses 'pet' , for resources, attention and to be adored. Without that they are empty. They use grooming and EA as a technique to interact with the world.

They are very vulnerable to being 'not all that' and being thought of as a 'velvetine'.

Once you know you will not be able to unknow.

See if this post is of any help:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588773#Post2588773

Sorry link icon doesn't work on my iPad it is from the abuse resource thread.

Let me know, I think I am on the right track, I reviewed several of your posts very carefully indeed although it's your sitch. You are a very generous, loving, caring and giving person just the sort of target these minx head for, your WH is vulnerable. They often loose interest in their targets if they have less resources.

It's time to get good and angry and determined for YOU. The lovely folks on this board will support you and give you encouragement to grow and change.

V

I am concerned about you. Are you ok?

V

Thank you for the concern, V. I'm fine. I'm still taking in what you had to say. Marinating, if you will. Meanwhile, I moved over to the MLC board. I'd been following it for quite awhile, but finally decided it was time to move. H has been making tiny little changes in his dealings...could be due to...a lot of things. But I am having quite the education lately on who I am. Lots to think about.

So, V, after reading, re-reading and marinating on the ideas you posted, I've come to the conclusion that it just doesn't matter.

I can understand the dynamics at play here, and it is very educational and interesting for future things to look out for, but I'm not going to try to control this situation. I'm letting go to let H find his own way on his own journey. I can drive myself insane and get angry and bitter about the situation, but it won't help me to be a better person.

He wants to give up me, everything we built together including our family unit, and pay for it by taking a financial hit...he can. I will make sure I take the high road and continue to listen, validate, and treat him lovingly when he is present; but I will make sure I do my best to make sure I am compensated for my 26 years as his wife, lover, financial advisor, accountant, decorator, mother of his children, nurse, scheduler, receptionist, artist, housekeeper, gardener, cook, landscaper, etc. This D I will treat as a business transaction. H has maintained that I am a nice person and that he is a selfish b#st@&d. I'm not out to get him or get "revenge", but we'll see if he still thinks this when we're done.

I am going to continue to DB as if my H is in an MLC. I will stand for my M by letting it go, as Zues said. H shows many signs and symptoms, and has for years. They (he) have evolved, as well. Not sure what stage he's in, but it doesn't really affect what I'm doing. I hope if he really is, that he is able to hit bottom at some point and make it through. He was a wonderful man at one point...I'm sure there are many who have never seen him without his mask, as I have, who still think he is. I believe that wonderful man I knew and loved is even further inside still, cowering away from whoever it is that wears the mask of "wonderful man".

Right now, I'm working on finding a summer job (I work for a school and have summers off), setting up meetings at a few universities to see what it would take to for me to enter a masters degree program after 26 years away from school, and trying to ready my house for sale, with and without H. I am also trying to GAL and nurture my new friendships that I have so quickly made in this crisis. I have a fairly full plate. I'm also stepping into the cloud of the unknown, as I have no idea what will happen beyond this month financially, socially, or, really in any aspect of my life.

But, really. I'm ok.

Ciluzen,

Your post sounds like you have a good DB plan in place to take you to a healthy place for yourself. I read it and it really resonated with me. I could have written it myself except I think you are further ahead of me on this journey. Keep GALing and detaching. Keep improving yourself and getting healthy. I hope you continue to post. I'm pulling for you.

I just so totally blew DBing this marriage. I let my anger (yes, this is new) build up and come out this week. I've already explained it on my MLC thread, but I let it all out at H. Not sure if this M could have been DBed. Now I'm pretty sure its done.

Sweetheart, it matters, it matters very much.

I am glad to see you angry, it's shift. Enjoy it, totally motivating, have a good old fashioned anger episode. It's a prime emotion you know?

A phase of grief.

A cessation off bargaining.

Have some great white anger, not red out of control anger. Get yourself into the gym and burn some energy, it's a great phase for movement.

In any case it's great DB to shift. You got unstuck, well done.

V

Yep, big shift. But venting allowed me to move forward a bit more. Not so angry again. But also not so needy.

Glad to hear from you, ciluzen. Use that anger for your benefit�.get out and exercise, burn off that anger in healthier ways and you will feel stronger mentally and physically. I am glad you feel like it moved you forward and you got unstuck.

I am not sure what exactly happened (I will try to read your MLC post), but keep DB'ing for yourself. Let's make sure we are the best versions of ourselves for our next R (with or without our spouses)!

Hey, broke.

I still lurk around the newcomer's board and keep up on the situations of those I often shared with. I've just finished my first mediation earlier this week and am in the thick of prepping the house for sale. H has been coming once a week to help. Sometimes its good, sometimes (usually due to me not being able to keep from R talk) its not so good. I am learning to let go, but those emotional ebbs and flows still happen. I post often on MLC, but it just feels like a better fit...I see too much of H's depression, flip flops, and MLC type symptoms in those familiar stories others tell over there. More taylor-made advice and support. But I'm often still here checking in or checking on others.

Hey ciluzen, do you come across any stories of early MLCs? Like people in their 30s?

Yes, Hope. There are some.
I've been reading a lot about MLC and male depression. Men tend to hold their depression in due to our ideas as a society that it is not manly to "emote". Then they end up acting out in other ways; violence, emotional and physical abuse, addictions, affairs, running away...
MLC is really, at its heart, depression. The male, who feels pressure not to confront or talk about his feelings, has become worried about aging and where he is in his life. Often this is triggered by stressors (a death, a job change or loss, a move, a child leaving). The depression is there, often due to or exacerbated by childhood issues, but never recognized or confronted. He then feels the need to run from the things that are causing him pain, usually misidentified and associated as the one's closest to him; wife and family (and the responsibility and pressures inherent in these R).
MLC behavior then insues. Running, trying to relive the good time in life (usually early twenties),trying to look younger, etc. At some point this doesn't work or gets too exhausting. The depression makes ts way to the surface. They may still try to mask it with drugs, alcohol, affairs, overwork. But until they work through the core of the problem (or seek help to) and recognize that it is within them, they can't quite get through it.
I'm not saying we as the spouses are without blame in the R issues. We need to recognize our own issues and understand how our actions and reactions might have affected our H's behaviors and feelings. But we can only work on ourselves and gain understanding of our dynamic. We can't control what H does.

Right now, my husband has thrown himself into work. He has already given up on party hardy twenty year old with the skinny jeans, personal trainer, highlighted hair, and body building supplements and is looking exhausted and haggard. He is sad. He still hasn't hit bottom. I don't know if he will.I don't know if our impending D will lighten his load or cause him to hit bottom. Its a wait and see. But I have to concentrate on me right now as there is not much of an us.

So, long story short; yes there are MLC's in their 30's. But depression can happen anytime. I Don't Want to Talk About It is a good read on male depression. DBing with an understanding of the underlying problem may help. Understanding is always helpful.It also makes it easier to focus on you by lessening the anger.

Hi, just came by to say hello. I sometimes wonder if my wife is in a MLC. I'll catch up on your other thread over there and maybe I came gain some insight. Be well

Hi Cil,

I am just wondering, I don't know the states very well, when you say Washington as your location. Is that Washington DC? or somewhere else?

Thanks lovely

JellyBxxx

Hey JB! Not Washington DC, but but Washington state in the northwestern part of U.S. Less populated on my end of the state. I seem to be surrounded by moose, elk and deer (along with the random herd of cattle). Did I hear you were coming for a visit? I'll open a bottle for ya!

ciluzen,

I haven't had time to read all of your posts, but our situations have a lot of similarities. My wife has a "special friend," I call him Dick. I thought it was funny that you call you husband's special friend Bubbles.

I was wondering if you know what Bubble's husband thought (or thinks) of his wife's friendship with your husband?

Hey, dood! Funny thing seeing this thread pop up! I actually post now in the mlc forum, so that was a surprise!

Yeah, I don'the know what he thinks. I've kinda distanced myself from my entire social group. I know I always enjoyed talking to him...really nice, hardworking guy...gone a lot, often out of town. Drinks a lot and sleeps a lot on weekends. Never saw him being really demonstrative around Bubbles. Great with his boys, helps coach their sports teams.

If you have read bluwaves thread there is talk of "nice guy syndrome". I know my H fits it to a T. I think he (Bubbles hubby) does, as well. I don't think he knows how often they were alone together.

Funny thing, though. My H is now spending more of his time with guys, including her H. I think me "apologizing" for my behavior made her realize how much she appeared to be having an affair? Or that she was caught, if anything did happen? Or that her behavior might have jeopardized her "perfect" family? Dunno. But the dynamic changed. Still is changing.

Anyway. My H seems to be finding his decisions are not making him happy, lately. He seems to suddenly be doing some harder thinking. Or not. I could be over analyzing. But I'm still moving forward. I can be flexible. It's all just "stuff" that's changing. It's the relationship part that hurts.

ciluzen,

Thank you for responding; it's nice to hear from someone in a similar situation.

My wife's "friend" is an older man who'd had some experiences with childhood abuse that was similar to what my wife had experienced. I thought it was a good thing that my wife had someone she could talk to that had been through some of the stuff she survived. I thought of him as a sort-of fatherly figure to my wife (they're about 15 years apart in age). But, I became very uncomfortable when their interactions seemed to become all-consuming. I'm fairly certain it wasn't a PA, but the MC confirmed that it was (or is) an EA.

The thing that made it hardest for me was that my wife's friend's wife is also friends with my wife (whew, sounds complicated). It's almost as if she promotes the two of them having more time together. It seems really weird to me that his wife would push them together, but she does. (My wife doesn't look her age, she looks 30 years younger than her friend).

Anyway, there's no question that the friendship became inappropriate (she's willing to divorce me to keep him), but I never understood why his wife is such a proponent of the two of them having more time together including alone time together. I think that's just a tad weird, but I can't understand it and probably never will.

One never can fill in those blanks, huh? We'd have to be in the room with them, or better yet, in their heads.

It could be that the friend's wife see's her husband as being fatherly to your W or see's that the R is making her H happy and she wants him to be happy. She also may not see, or chooses to ignore the inappropriateness.

My H went on a ski trip last year (before bomb drop) and this year (after). I'm not in Bubble's husband's head, but I have no idea what he thought. He saw me and was friendly on this year's trip (I was with a different group, but ran into him, her and H skiing), but I, too, wonder what he thinks of having my H as a third wheel. An uncle to his kids. AND if he knows how much alone time they had.

When I confronted him about basically spending a weekend with her a few years ago, and lying about part of it, he pretty much said 'what do you want me to do, fire her? She works hard for me." In the ensuing months, I caved and just "forgave" him but not really. And he carried on, even blatantly choosing her company over mine. Left me at a table for a half hour at a nice restaurant to talk to her on the phone just outside our window. I'm not that wimpy woman anymore that had such low esteem that I put up with it after crying about it.

But even if your W is just very involved with a daddy-figure or having an ea, if you are uncomfortable and she knows it, it's wrong. She has made a choice. I think in your case, though, sticking to DB methods might actually help quite a bit. You grow out of "daddy" time. It might just be her way of working through her issues. I will read through your thread tonight and think on it.

ciluzen,

I no longer have any doubt that it's an EA. I questioned myself for a long time (for a variety of reasons), but I no longer question it. However, it still blows my mind that his wife almost seems to push the two of them together; I'll never understand that.

There's a much longer story behind all of it, but ultimately I'm unable to be a third wheel in the marriage.

Yeah, me neither. As I said, we really don't get to know another person's perspective unless they tell us. Who knows what the wife thinks she's accomplishing by pushing them together. If she really is pushing on purpose, she obviously has a reason. Does she believe they are having an EA?

Please start a new thread

ciluzen,

I'll respond on your new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2668986#Post2668986

Link to thread in MLC forum.