He loves me he loves me not - DivorceBusting.com

Time for a new post

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2639655#Post2639655

So I still have not read the Love Languages book. I plan to now though. For the past few months I could not get myself to read any relationship books, because I had such limited contact with husband. It just depressed me knowing that there were all these approaches I should have been using that I did not.

Jelly B, You wrote "BTW, some people who have LL as QT, need quality conversation as part of it." Funny, because I have trouble knowing if my LL is quality time or words of affirmation.
To be honest any of the LLs would be nice to have, now that I am not getting anything.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

So I still have not read the Love Languages book. I plan to now though. For the past few months I could not get myself to read any relationship books, because I had such limited contact with husband. It just depressed me knowing that there were all these approaches I should have been using that I did not.

Jelly B, You wrote "BTW, some people who have LL as QT, need quality conversation as part of it." Funny, because I have trouble knowing if my LL is quality time or words of affirmation.
To be honest any of the LLs would be nice to have, now that I am not getting anything.

My sweet lady, you are allowed to bilingual in this life, multilingual if you choose to be.

I got some insights from the book. It was an easy read. I learned I'm a touch, physical contact guy.

I am a physical affection girl! But as you said Julie, when you aren't getting any thing they all look good. I would LOVE a present right now, and I have never cared about gifts in my entire life.

Quote:

Zues, all my husband keeps saying is "I tried for years".

Looking back, i think he did after kids were born, but it was at a point I was just so angry and resentful and hormonal and sleep deprived.

Maybe this is Karma? Me experiencing with him what he was with me after kids were born. I never would have left though.

I know that you are right because he told me something along the lines that he needed to see if he could handle being separated from kids and I. I found this very insulting. It still bothers me because it showed that his needs surpassed the trauma it would have on the kids and the burden it placed on my parents. IT was also him making a decision without any discussion based on what he wanted to do as an individual instead of making a collaberative decision as a family (something that I felt frequently plagued our relationship and left me resentful)

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Suppose two people were in a horrible argument, and the husband said "I'm going for a drive to cool off, we can talk about this later", and the wife gets upset and says "No! We are going to finish talking about this right now!" and tries to block him from leaving. Husband pushes past her and drives away, and wife is crying by the door feeling she was abandoned and is unloved and that her husband doesn't care for her enough to hear her out. But the reality is that he was beyond his ability to cope, and him walking away to avoid saying something he'd regret was probably smart.

I'm not suggesting 6 months is the same as 6 hours. It isn't. But could you look at is as the same concept? Granted, it's a heck of a long time to take to 'cool down', and the pain caused by threatening the very marriage itself is extremely hurtful (like dropping the D work in an argument, only to scale of acting on it)...but then again, the pain caused over the years was also much larger proportional to what a couple typically argues about. So could it be like a big 10 year argument, where years 2-8 were the incident that upset him, year 9 was the blow up, and year 10 was the cooling down?

I don't know. Just kicking this around in my head. I often think though that the cycles are similar, just tougher to get through.

Just think of what the 'make up sex' could be like though

Maybe. But thats a crazy way to live no?

You see I keep wanting there to be that "makeup sex" type of occurrence, where we both realize we were wrong and connect. Past year I had been pushing for that type of connection.

He is not there though but at least there is some change. I am not there because I am so hurt as well.

Logistically speaking, things are a lot harder in our situation as well. It was all too easy for him to leave and too difficult to return.

It's hard to imagine that type of intimacy now, because he has been a stranger to me for so long.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

It's hard to imagine that type of intimacy now, because he has been a stranger to me for so long.

Julie, that is exactly how I feel. I look at the XH and am overwhelmed by the strangeness of him and the chasm between us. And I really can't for the life of me imagine ever having been intimate with the XH. But we must have, cuz we had kid. :P

So had conversation with coach. I was a bit weird, because it's late and I am tired and it's that time of month and I was just really detached about my whole situation.

We talked about how husband and I are just kind of stuck. She felt that I needed to make a change at this point. That there is a growing detachment. We have had very little engagement other then texts and it's not working. She asked if perhaps my husband might need to hear more of "I miss you sort of stuff" now...not that I should do that, she just asked.

She suggested that I i initiate some friendship sort of activities but without pushing the reconciliation topic. Said I needed to make some bold moves and initiate and pursue the friendship (not reconciliation) that there needed to be a change at this point.

Was talking to her about some weird husband behaviors on our movie outing and She was asking me if this was always the case I told her yes at least for past 4 years. She was asking about our friendship and I told her about how he is a stranger and how it is hard for me to even remember our relationship anymore. That all I am focused on is his leaving us amd my anger regarding that.

Would love to hear some thoughts on 2 issues

1. Am going away with friends for extended weekend. Trip will require a flight. (Feel really guilty. I have never left kids before but that's a whole other story). I have to let husband know I won't be in state, but if he asks where I am going what do i tell him?

Back in October he went away for over a week and would not tell me where or with who (I no longer think it was another woman, i think it was more of a power struggle issue and him wanting to be in control to do and come as he pleases issue for him. He later told me he was helping friend move and on road trip. But no details...trust me I know what this sounds like). Him going away was really painful for me because I love to travel and he would always tell me he could not afford it. The few trips we did take, I always paid majority so that he would go. He acknowledge that he didn't want to tell me about trip because I always wanted to travel and he knew it would upset me.

I will be honest, just thinking of this makes me really angry at him.

I would say just tell him that you're going on a road trip. If he asks further, just say friends?

Tell the truth but keep it short. If he wants additional details, let him do the work.

I can understand how hurt and betrayed you would be when he travelled without you. But your H did explain why he kept it from you. Doesn't make him right but at least he tried.

My 2 cents worth.

Ok thanks. It doesn't sound as bad when I write it out.

Julie, why do you not want to tell him where you are going? Is it because he didn't tell you details of his trip? I think if he asks, you should just tell him, you are playing tit for tat, and I thought you were trying to work on the friendship? What are you trying to accomplish? (I mean this in a genuine way, not being sarcastic.) I think this is an opportunity to be friendly and forthcoming with information which is the way you want H to behave with you.

I hope you have a great trip, btw, it will be good for you to get away. Your parents will be taking care of the boys? Julie, have you ever caught up with Mona's thread, page 8?

I read this earlier but couldn't reply. Fo beat me to the punch. Lead by example, don't try to punish him to try to make him understand the pain you went through.

Yes, it is very difficult to see him travel suddenly. Shoot, my WW had more sex with her OM#1-4 in the 6 months following BD than we did in our entire marriage. And I'm sure she threw her resentment for me into her desire for them. Meanwhile she's getting child support while I sponsor it all.

The world is a horrible, horrible place to be. It's not H's fault. He's just the guy you happen to be with while you learn how disappointing marriage is compared to the dream we used to have.

I took advise of dB coach and called husband yesterday just to "say hi". We made small talk. He did not try to end conversation or rush off because of work and I kept thins neutral. I reminded him I was going away. He intentionally (I think) did not ask about trip. It would be hypocritical for him to ask since he was upset with me for asking him about his. I doubt he is even upset by it. Truth is I would like to talk to him about it cause there is all this funny drama going on with it, but not sure if it would get him angry...trip does cost money and he is paying support (I would never use his money for this trip)
DB coach wants me to now initiate a family outing but not bring up reconciliation. I think she is right. We have too much to tackle and any conversation will cause argument. The lack of contact is making us strangers. I feel distant and can't remember any good either and that's problematic

So trying to work on friendship so texted husband about my crazy day today...car wouldn't start walked kids too school. One of then had meltdown cause he didn't want to walk. After DB I wouldn't of let him know, but am trying to have more contact.

He basically was upset that my parents lent their car with our other car seats (husband paid for) to someone for today. Really it was just a bad coincidence, but I was annoyed at that because my parents do so much. They have the car seats because they pick kids up 3 days a week.(he does not pick them up any days) Today was not a day they were supposed to pick them up. So for him to complain that they lent their car out so my nephew could use car seat on this one occasion seemed unfair to me. So I made a comment about the fact that their perspective is different. They are thinking how tough it is that their daughter is a single mom and no husband around to help when there is a problem...or something like that.

Anyway no real fighting after that. But our perspectives on things are so different. I just don't get him and can't keep my mouth shut when I think something is being said that is unfair. I am frustrated and realize that he is too.

I feel like I am constantly asking am I right or wrong? So am I wrong?

I also feel like he complains about things that are unfair. My parents do me a huge favor. They don't have to keep car around just in case mine breaks down. That makes no sense. What does he want???? I don't understand the logic and these types of scenarios are the things we have always fought about.

Trips are great. His mind is going to go crazy wondering who you'll be going with or meeting, and what you'll be doing. Don't tell him. Let him stew on it.

Hi JulieH, I'm afraid I haven't much to say but I thought I drop by to let you know that I'm thinking of you. I hope you are having a GAL. Have a lovely weekend.

Big hugs :-)

Husband has never been jealous type. Not at all. He just does not think like that. He actually rationalizes this sort of stuff in very healthy way. I really do not think trio would make him jealous. He might be upset about money though. " she files for cs because she has no money and now she is travelling" just like I was mad. "He won't pay for cs but he went on vacation for over week? "

In past, once kids were born I never spent money on trips for myself or makeup or clothing or hair salon because I was saving for kids. Now I am being selfish with my expenses. I do feel horrible for it, but it has helped me get through this. I am going to ask advice in future regarding work and hope I can ask on someone else's thread.

I also feel very guilty about going anywhere without kids. What if there is a plane accident? They will have no mom because I had to have a weekend away. I was always reluctant to do things for myself because of similar fears. Some sort of anxiety I guess.

Julie, feel free to ask on my thread if that helps you.

I wish I could go on a trip! It sounds great. The guilt is normal, but really, you could get hit by a car in front of your house if you think of it that way, life is risky. Go and enjoy your trip, your boys will be fine, and you will come back with extra energy and a smile on your face that will go a long way towards being a good mom.

Thanks rouky and tx hubby

Fo, thanks I will remember that!

I've been in a weird mood. Husband seems responsive to me calling and texting, but I just don't have skills or mindset to really handle our differences in perceptives. I get really mad when he complains about my parents not doing enough.
My mom and best friend tell me I will never win with him. The only way for it to work will require me to just sit there and nod my head and apologize for everything. He thinks so differently from me. I have to learn a way to effectively validate, communicate, but without being a door mat.

Hi Julie, when I figure out how to effectively validate without being a doormat, I will let you know. For now I am do not have any real connection with H, ( he is avoiding it with me, but I am not pursuing) our texts and talks are very short and logistical. It is hard feeling so distant from someone you love.

I feel like the more I GAL and PMA, the wider the gap. It is hard.

Take me on vacation with you? LOL. Have a good night Julie.

Julie,

What I am about to say is likely way off base and potentially not Dbing at all. And I would never want to steer you wrong. There are far more trustworthy posters than me. You know me, and my little addicty ways!!!

With that said, I do wonder if now is not the time to experiment a little with different approaches of how to connect and engage H.

I find that out fear of doing the wrong thing, it stops us from being fully engaged in the moment and so we tend to tense up and I think we send out a feeling that we are scared of what is about to happen.

Part of dating and becoming attracted to someone is anticipating the positive experience, anticipating, fun and excitement.

I bet that if you bumped into some gorgeous man in a cafe and he asked you to sit down and talk, you would find a million things to talk about and discover. The difference with meeting H, is that everything feels so tense and every topic feels like a potential minefield. We don't feel like that when we are dating everything is a possible gem about this person.

Another thing is we forget that we get turned on by ourselves when we are enamoured by someone. We think differently about how dress, how do our hair, we feel generally differently about ourselves more positive, more assertive, more engaged with who we are, we find ourselves more interesting. We want to show off our best selves to the men we want to attract and that makes us feel sexy and excited.

This is the feeling you need to have about yourself and meeting with H. Friendship sure I get it, great starting place. But what about wanting to get him to also slowly undress you his eyes and you him.

As far as I can see Julie, you have nothing to lose taking a few risks. The way you write about your sitch, presents with a level of enevitability, that things are doomed anyway, that basically your never will "win".

Well my sweet gorgeous sexy, amazing fabulous woman, throw caution to the wind and experiment with being amazing and flirty and fun. If that is the case, then f**k it!! Be yourself. Stop being so careful. Bet it all on black - black lingerie is super hot - I have a draw full - we need to get you some!

Julie, lets bring sexy back!!! Lets work on you building attraction and connection with this man of yours. Your man is sending out some cues of wanting to connect in some way. Maybe its back to basics.

Just a crazy suggestion, I could be completely wrong.

So much love for you Julie.

Jelly xxx

Hi Julie, wrt to validation without being a doormat, I can empathise with you. I am either way out aggressive or lie-on-the-floor-door mattish passive. It's hard for me to find a nice balance.

But I realise that when it comes to the issues in my M, I have reached the point when I can tell the X that 'I can see why you feel that way' because I really do, even when I don't agree with him. If I don't agree with him, I don't say that I agree with him.

What MWD says about validation is that it is the acknowledgement that other perceptions of reality exist. And each perception is valid to the person that holds it, whether or not they are justified. This is perhaps what having a beginner's mind is all about?

Fo,

Yes. It is hard to be distant with someone you love. Especially when I want so much more and he has rejected me. I hope I am making right move by doing some initiating. If roads are not too bad on Sunday im gonna ask him to meet up somewhere so we can spend afternoon with kids together. I think I just have to keep away from reconciliation talk. He needs to initiate that.

I am looking fwd to wild bachelorette weekend down south. Come along, I think you would be a lot of fun to party with! I am going with some very wild people so it will be interesting. Im really not much of a drinker. I've been out drinking twice last year and that's only because husband walked out on me! Only Good thing is I am literally buzzed with 1.5 drinks and then I stop there, so my evenings are inexpensive. But when I was younger I used to love to go out for the dancing and excuse to get dressed up.

To be honest though, I would love to just be going on an active trip anywhere with my family.

I love traveling. We should Organize DB weekend somewhere! How surreal that would be.

Good night!

JellyB

I think you might be right. To be honest, I think that's what kept husband around for a long time despite our fighting..,he was attracted to me. Moving in with my family made him lose that totally. I can tell because I lost my "power" (I know it's a horrible word to use but I don't know how else to describe it).

The problem is, I don't have those feelings for him anymore. I am angered and betrayed and it comes out. It is hard for me to be flirty now because it is not authentic. I don't know if he is still attracted to me for same reasons. He might be though.

Arguing my point is not attractive or flirty..it's petty and makes me unappealing. Just like him doing it to me is. I have to first remember that at a time when I am emotionally charged.

But what else?

jellyb.. I bought 3 inch heeled black boots. What would he say if I wore it with a knit mini skirt or fitted black dress when and if he asks me on that date? Is that too much? I could just smile confidently like in a shakira video. Lol. Or would it make me look sad and desperate. That should probably be a 3rd date.

First things first, he has to actually ask me on that date,

Grlonfr...you described exactly what I do. I am either too agressive or a door mat.

Saying "I see why you feel that way" would have been the exact thing to say today. I need that tattooed on my forearm.

Or I could have just agreed with him, made a joke about how of all days they had to lend there car away and then just threw in something like, "well they do so much I have a lot to appreciate them for". That would have worked! I just get so heated because I am mad at him for leaving me.

Jellyb, you reminded me of another incident when during a big fight before BD but after marriage counseling and a lot of discord, I converted a lot of anger simply by passionate kiss. It worked then! Only problem was we were living with my parents.

I would be afraid of rejection now though.

I do think you are on to something possibly.

Julie,

Here's a weird comparison and it may not resonate or mean anything to you at all. It is a reference point for me because I was single for a really long time.

It's almost like you are a 35 year old woman, who is dating men for the sole purpose of finding man who will marry her and give her babies, and it needs to happen within her 5 year plan.

So this 35 year old woman is so set on her view of the future, that she can't actually see the man standing in front of her who just, brought her dinner, made her laugh and treated her like a lady. What she also doesn't see, is that this gorgeous man, who was a real possibility, was put off by the question of how many children he thought he wanted, or if he had ever considered an island holiday wedding. Suddenly this man who was interested and attracted is thinking in his head "OMG, I don't even know if i want a second date and she is talking marriage and children".

This 35 year old woman has no idea what she has just communicated to said date, all she is thinking in her head, I hope this works out, I'm so tired of dating, I'm so tired of feeling alone, I'm tired of being rejected, I'm so tired of making myself vulnerable to men who never follow through, I am tired of being hurt by men who reject me, I'm so DAMN tired".

I wonder if there is a little of this going on. H knows all of the expectations you have, and the hurt and the anger, and it just makes him step backwards, instead of learning in.

If the 35 year old woman had just been her sexy, gorgeous, independent flirty self and left the expectations and hard conversations at home, she may well of a gotten a second date, a third, a relationship , a proposal, a husband, a baby, a family.

But because she couldn't be in the moment, and have a little patience, couldn't connect and engage with the man right in front of her, she lost an opportunity to have what she wanted.

Julie, maybe this is too simplistic .

The other thing Julie. Being flirty and sexy, is not just about attracting H back as first step. I think, the first step is actually about you rediscovering yourself, your own gorgeously feminine power. More feeling, less thinking!

You don't need H to make you feel like sexy powerful woman. You are a sexy powerful woman. When men see you loving yourself and in your own power. My belief is that men start to question why they aren't loving you. Men also love strong vulnerable authentic women. Vulnerability, authenticity and openness create intimacy, intimacy creates connection. (Thanks PP)

I feel a Fried Green Tomatoes quote coming on "TOWAAANNNDA"!!!!!

Jellyxxx

Julie, like what sandi said in one of her posts, LBS can also feel ILYBIMNILWY. Especially after all the hurt and the nastiness from the WAS/WS.

It is normal to feel the way you do. But your H seems to be reaching out and like what your coach said, you could try being friends.

And like what jellyb said, you could try being a really sexy friend with no strings attached for the time being.

Julie, I agree, be sexy. My biggest 180 will be to have my SBXW the boys so she can raise them. I know that we will be friends after that and I plan on working on the rest of my 180s and that it ends in positive results. Remember who you were when you met H way back when. Be that person again that made him attracted to you. How did you lure him in? More of the same things that brought you together may work again, it did the first time.

Julie, I am taking the advice from this thread myself. I am sure I have those "expectations" and that sabotages my interactions with H.

I am planning on picking my H up at the airport in high heeled ankle boots and skinny jeans. (And a top, lol) I am learning to do makeup thanks to some links Ancaire posted and I will look great. I will let you know if it works. It will be a couple more weeks at least though.

Are you in this storm too? The snow is just starting here. Going to be stranded all weekend and I plan on watching the makeup tutorials and practicing. At the very least, if it doesn't work on H I will look better for the next guy. Just kidding !!! (sort of.)

I also feel pretty good after one glass of wine- I am a cheap date! I have a friend who keeps refilling my wine glass whenever I turn around and I was wondering why I always get so drunk at her house. I am on to her, she tops off my drinks and then gets me to spill all my secrets. By 2 glasses I am an open book.

JellyB..I think you are psychic. Hopefully I will be able to discuss this more in future.

Sexy and flirty was not in the cards today. In fact my hurt feelings and resentment probably messed things up big time. This weekend there is blizzard hitting and its husbands turn with the kids. All day long I kept thinking about how I was going to miss out on spending snow time with kids. I do not like being so far away from them and unable to get to them during an event like this.

My son does not like leaving. It's a transition issue I think. Once he gets there he is ok. MIL usually gives him junk food (something I always tried to keep them away from but gave up) and then he settles in. He does want to come home to me early though. He talks about it for days. Tells me "don't let daddy take me" "don't let daddy in so he can take me" "no more sleep overs" "hold me tight so daddy can't take me". etc. just now, it was a major struggle. He was hiding under the desk and really resisting. Husband wanted me to be the one to grab him and carry him to car seat and I would not. I was emotional and teary eyed a bit as well because it was hard to see son like this and I know this would not have made it better for son.

I told son that everyone loves him. Mommy and daddy love him and we both take turns having him because we are his mommy and daddy and we both love him. I do Not say bad things about my husband in front of him ever. (He loves his father and last weekend when we went out he was asking him not to leave. )

I do not however want to be the one who physically forces him kicking and screaming out. My husband also lies and tells them that mom is going out and that is why he is taking them. I told husband recently that I don't want him to tell him lies like that.

He kept talking about all the fun they were going to have with him and grandma and I was literally sick over it. MIL taking over my role as mom is infuriating.

Anyway, I suspect husband is upset with me. He want to talk to me after he puts to bed.

What I want to say....

1. divorce is horrific on kids. When you did all your research by talking to your divorced friends and friends of divorced parents didn't they forewarn you? (He had told me a while ago, that he didn't just make this decision lightly he talked to friends who had divorced parents.)

2. You want me to implement something that I wholeheartedly disagreed with.

3. You only thought about yourself when you made this decision. Never about them and they know it.

So what do I say? I am preparing myself. Maybe will just listen and validate. I am emotional right now and this will be challenging. Maybe things like "that must have felt awful".

I won't go on defensive because I did nothing wrong.

Help please?

Julie, I don't think you can say those things without putting him on the defensive.

Maybe try to rephrase it to take the blame out of it. My MIL is dying to get her hands on my kids and that is a big reason why I am fighting this D so hard. But for now you can't focus on that.

1- Divorce is hard on children, do you have any ideas on how we can make this transition easier? And then listen. Maybe suggest family therapy? I found family therapy to actually be helpful for our marriage, more so than MC.
2- Skip this point, he knows you don't agree.
3- Skip this point, no good can come out of this. Maybe try "I know we both want the best for our children."

Ask his ideas, consider family counseling, listen respectfully, you do not have to agree to anything, just listen and realize that you both are concerned for the children even though it is hard to believe that H really is.

His idea is for me to drive out to meet him somewhere, so he does not have to come to house and pick them up...this way I have to be the one to pack up the car and deal with a screaming child that does not want to go.

Also I look like the bad guy because I am the one "giving him a away" no?

I did not want this. I begged husband to reconsider a long time ago. Why do I have to enable and be the one to implement his decision to split up kids.

I am sorry in advance. I know how much worse this is for you guys that were left behind and only have 50% or. 30% time with your kids and I know how spoiled I sound. But to me this is a huge injustice and what he is asking is unfair.

Julie,

Sounds like a tremendously hard handover. Poor little guy. He must be emotionally exhausted by the time he goes. It is likely all very anxiety inducing for him, which likely elevates his emotional responses even more so.

Julie, your mothers-mind needs you to tackle this problem with your lovely son. Not LBS-mind. If you can remember that if you get a win for you son, you get a win for Julie. If you get win for julie you may well get one for your H and M.

This is an opportunity Julie, use it as such to bring H closer. We are creating attraction and connection with H and safe handover for you son. These are the goals.

This is an opportunity to do some forward focus thinking and feeling. This is an opportunity to show H, that you can collaborate on resolving an issue together. A highly emotional issue.

Do you think you can put the very fair and reasonable assessments on the back burner.

My initial response is just simply stating a feeling. "Well that felt..........I feel really .......". What do you think?

Let H tell you what he thinks. H is likely to identify a solution. Validate if you think it is something workable....but completely acknowledge the we aspect of finding a solution, " what you said feels doable, I like where you are going, could we build in x and y, they feel like important things to consider for our son. What do you think?

Any time you can use "we" or "us". Throw it in there. If you want to express an opinion, preface it with, my preference would be this, because it would make me feel......What do you think? "

When you are finish that him for sharing his thoughts with you on the matter and appreciate his commitment to his children.

Julie, regarding your lovely boy, sounds like he needs a few things to feel ok about going to dad's. More prep time, there might need to be a transition plan for him, it might have to be incremental. Your sound needs to be support to resolve this and have some control over the process.

Maybe you could talk to him about "what are some things we can think about and do that would make going to dad's easier" .

I know some children need to transition attachment more slowly, so slowing down the process might be key. Dad might need to come in and have a cup of coffee and sit down and then a gradual exiting.

I have never been an advocate of carrying children out of houses in distress, but I am an advocate for supporting children to develop the skills to manage things they don't want to do. Life is about doing things you don't want to do.

If it does get to the point where carrying him out in an upset state is necessary, ask you son what he wants to happen, give him two options or choice. This or that will happen, and let him choose. If he cannot or won't pick one, choose the option for him and let him know in advance. " hey buddy, we know you are upset, but it is time to go with dad, in two minutes, dad or mum are going to pick you up and take you out to the car. If you would like to walk there yourself you can do that too, in fact we would love that"

Julie I know that this is really distressing, and it's not so fair. Working this through is a mum and dad effort. Neither of you should have to wear the bad guy t-shirt, particularly when your sons love each of you.

I have a heap of suggestions for supporting kids with transitions. Someone who would also be good is Grlonfr. She works with her special needs kiddies. She would have heaps of great ideas.

Hang in there lovely lady!!

Jellybxxx

Hi I agree with Fo.

Maybe you can let your H talk first? And go from there. Fo's ideas are great.

No point forcing the research on him. He probably knows but the research isn't going to change his mind.

You must be hurting over your son's rxn. Maybe you could remind him that when he is with daddy, he actually enjoys the time with him? Have you bought books about D or S? I bought for kid and they seemed to help her.

Julie, Jellyb has great ideas. Make the routine pre-swap as fun and comfortable as possible. How do you feel pre-swap? Your S might be picking up on these vibes from you. If so, you need to act as if.

I always feel like strangling the X whenever I see him, but I always fake it in front of kid. I put my RBF away for a while. Kid is not the enemy. Your S is not the enemy. Like what jellyb said, put aside the LBS persona and put on the living mum persona.

These difficult exchanges won't convince your H that divorce is terrible. Because your S actually has a great time with him. The convincing will have to come at a time when your H can be convinced.

Loving mum, not living mum. That sounds quite horrible!

my son does like to be in control and seems to have a lot of anxieties ( he is also extremely bright and funny and sweet and cuddly) I used to always tell him what his christmas and birthday presents were or else the surprise would be too overwhelming for him. We no longer have counselor for him because he is no longer approved for special services. Which is a good thing because it was not felt that he needed it. But I think I need to find a family therapist like Fo suggested even if it's just for me and son.

I do have to prepare him for everything. And I try to give him forewarning regarding going to dads. I talk about it positively and tell him they will play together and grandma will make cookies and daddy wants to see him. He is very resistant and then would just keep saying " I'm not going"

I am going to try asking him "what are some ways and things we can do to make going to dads easier?" That might work better because he will feel like he has a bit of control that way. Thank you for that suggestion. I think it might work.

Neither of us wanted to carry him out of house when he was in distress. Husband expected me to and I think when he does call, is going to be upset with me because he feels like by me not doing it I am making him look like bad guy.

(((Julie)))

This is tough. You're right about not wanting to carry a bawling kid into the car.

Don't let H being upset upset you. Like you said, he has to own his part in this whole affair. You shouldn't fix this for him, though you do have to fix this for kid.

See weekday he has to say about this?

Grlonfr

He might be picking up on my emotions. Today definatly. But there were also many times when I was pretty ok with it or my parents were doing the hand off and he was having hard time. We thought he would get used to it and it just got worse.

I never bought books about divorce because At first husband never said he wanted divorce just space with goal of reconciliation...then it was up and down.
6 months later and still nothing definitive. Limbo is unfair to me and to kids because what do I even say to them? I will definatly have to find a family therapist.

Writing and figuring out how this will affect the kids is the hardest thing for me. I am at loss. I am constantly doubting my ability as a mom

They have a program at his school for families that are divorced or separated but counselor said until it's definitive and we talked to him about it it's not appropriate for him. She cannot be the one to tell him what's going on and I have no idea what is going on.

Limbo is just not good.

Julie,
Just a thought. How about writing a story together about your family?

This way, you can address the limbo and give your son a chance how he can choose to react?

Don't be too quick to end the story though. Just keep it open, like how it is in real life.

Don't be too harsh on yourself. School didn't prepare any of us for this.

Ok. Husband and I talked calmly about how to make transition easier for S. I let him lead, and stayed away from the blame game.

Then I did everything your not supposed to do and said how awful it is for me to give up kids every other weekend. He said for him too. He said its a product of us and its not fair to blame. This led to other stuff and I thought it would get negative. But it didn't. He had been doing a lot of reflecting and talked About himself and our past and why it didn't go well. We joked a bit too.

I talked about how hurt I was when he left. He said he knew and could understand that. He talked about how stressed he had been and how he needed to get himself healthy. We talked about how things were bad before we moved. I talked about how I was unhappy in past because I couldn't appreciate what I had. I asked him if he loved me and he said yes. I told him I loved him. So basically all the stuff your not supposed to do. It was my old pursuing self but it went well.

I think now from here, it sets stage for me to be flirty. It will be easy to now because there is an opening. This is how I was when we first met. Because he is not completely blaming me and taking ownership I don't feel as resentful right now. I am trying to do same. But can't push too much either.

Thanks guys.

Sounds great! I love that your H said that he's been thinking about things.

Ooh. Yes, go ahead and be flirty. Still see where your H leads.

This is good, I am happy for you Julie.

If husband and I are to reconcile, I am going to have to work on accepting husband for what I see are his flaws. I am going to have to forgive him for leaving me with my parents. I am going to have to stop wanting what I don't have and start appreciating what is in front of me... A healthy family. I am going to have to stop blaming things on him and play an active and effective role to make things better but without criticizing.

I am going to have to trust him with money... This would mean, doing what's best for family despite the advise of lawyer and my mother and take on some extra work while kids are in school. It would also mean pooling our savings so that we can budget and become a team instead of 2 separate unities...the way we functioned in past.

Husband was not with other woman. He was in crises. Things were not good between us and I played a big role. When he was living here the stress was contributing to trips to ER for him. He was having trouble handling everything. I'm sure he was humiliated because we were living here. I did not make things easier. He was afraid for his health (and has good reason to) he is not my enemy, he is my husband.

Yes, I did not have things easy either and he said hurtful things to me but I will not focus on that... The things he said to me never attacked me personally nor were they about my character. Even at his angriest, He never said "you are selfish" he said "you did nothing for me". He never said you are not attractive he said "you never bothered to dress up for me" he never said "ILYBNILWY".
I need to remember this.

My mother is so angry, she would not even respond to him when husband came in to pick up kids yesterday. Luckily my dad was there to respond with hellos and small talk. I am so greatful for my dads maturity level. I am sure my mother sees
Attempts at reconciliation and she has been commenting more and more about him. Reminding me of his selfishness every chance she can. Today when I remarked how bad I felt about my son and that I was told he screamed the whole trip her remark was "husband made his bed, let him lie in it". I am just ignoring the comments. I see my own thoughts in her words and I know where they come from.

Has anyone seen the movie "white oleander"? My mother has a similar character to the mom that michelle pheiffer plays (but without criminal activity and without ever leaving us) she also frequently reminds me of miss havisham. I don't know how my dad deals with her.
I know she saw me suffering though and saw husband at his worst so of course she wants to protect me by villifying him.

Tap tap tap. You are one of my heroes Julie.

Julie, I am happy for you. I would DIE to get an ILY. You are doing really well and I see so much hope in your situation. Great job with the conversation- sounds like a good balance of DB vs. genuine Julie, being true to yourself. That is a hard balance to find, but I think you've got it.

I hope you are having a good weekend. I am really glad I read your thread!

Fo, technically it wasn't a real ILY. More of a I drew it out, where he admitted that he still did, But it was there and we laughed about it and we laughed about his inability to openly communicate it. Kind of like " ditto"

The tone during this was totally different though. The resentment and anger was absent and back was our ability to laugh at ourselves...something missing for a long time.

I think we both need to just keep the anger and resentment and following criticism at bay now. Something I fear counseling will bring forth (like it did the first time we went)

What's also interesting is that he is the one that was doing a lot of the validating during our conversation. That completely out my guard down. He was better at the communication then I was. But I did listen well.

Julie, that is really a big breakthrough. Wow, this is huge. I got an "almost ILY" when H said a month or so ago "I wouldn't be here if there wasn't some love left."

But the change in HIS communication- that means a lot. That means he is doing his own work! We all know that you are working hard Julie, but if you both are working on your own ends, that is the best scenario.

I hear you about MC, that I don't think helped us. This forum has helped me the most, and I think family therapy was second. MC and IC was questionable.

You never know, he could be one of the newbies posting here on this forum and getting some good advice. I wonder how many times that has happened?

Fo

Omg can you imagine? I do have to change name. I had given him first book divorce busters a while ago. I have DR. I think perhaps he was too mad to communicate fairly with me for a while.

Right now I am stuck in doors missing kids. But you know what? I woke up at 8 30 today! I am curled under blankets reading forums. Will exercise. Will do some cleaning. Maybe watch movie, make phone calls. Maybe try to get back into reading. Do some shoveling when we can.
I am also laughing because MIL and him have to keep the kids occupied while they are stuck in doors. No easy feat. They are not kids to just watch a movie and play by themselves. Snow Probably won't be cleared tomorrow Either,

Julie, I bet you live near me, I am stuck indoors today too. We are at about 2 feet + of snow and it is still coming down hard. I have a hunch that one day when my H decides to work on the M he will find himself here. Which is not yet, but I am trying to be less identifiable anyway. That's why I had a couple of name changes. I was posting way too many details in the beginning, but I needed the support, so it was worth it.

Your H reminds me in some ways of mine. But then again, don't they all?

Glad you are getting a quiet day to do your own things. My kids are in and out, it takes longer to put on snow gear than it takes to play outside. Then they come in, track ice everywhere, and then they want to go outside before their jackets, gloves etc, are even dry yet. I am thinking we might be stuck for a few days, I haven't seen a plow yet.

Fo, I suspect so too

. I lied about some things but I am pretty identifiable if ever read. If h did actually come to this board there would be a lot of names to read through. What would be the chances of picking me? Something my husband would not have patience to do, unless he knew I was posting on here. We don't live together, so he has no access to my computer. He is also a pretty firm believer in not invading someone's privacy so I'm not sure he would actually read it if he knew for sure it was me. ( I don't think I could resist though)

I am going away next week and am really hoping I can get to kids tomorrow. I doubt it. Just saw some plows going through though.

Julie, I wish we could chat. If you lived near me we could have some fun GAL outings. I am going to some concerts and need a concert buddy. I'll drop you a hint one day when I can think of one that isn't too obvious.

Ok

Julie, reading all of the above is so positive and complete reflection of the reflecting, learning and growing. Julie you have taken advantage of every opportunity that has been presented to you over the last couple of weeks. What I see is a Julie who is being authentically who she is, with a balance to hold her H's feelings and place within your relationship. I absolutely believe if you can continue to be strong on the inside and vulnerable on the outside. I do feel H will keep leaning in. I think the MC is something to talk through with your DB coach. Personally I wonder if consolidating the foundation of friendship, fun and more open communication outside of a therapy room, might be more useful right now. But be guided by them for sure. This is good stuff. I look forward to your next post. Much love Jellyxxx

One of the things I liked about husband when we met, was that we did not have to play games.

Now I feel like I am playing games. I called him yesterday just to say hi. He was responsive and it was superficial small talk type stuff. But this has been our standard conversation for a long time anyhow even before BD (although before BD I would stear convo toward relationship probably because nothing else to talk about, that and game of thrones) You know, how's work, how's family, about the kids...it's a bit of pulling teeth and boring.

I am doing this because if I dont, he will just become more of a stranger to me. He is a stranger right now. There is nothing really there. At least I don't feel like it. He has not initiated anything conversation wise. I think it's because he is not a good conversationalist but I could just be telling myself that. We also have very little in common and perhaps little going on in our lives other then work, kids, some gym. No time for hobbies or interests. My spare time has been on these boards and I can't really discuss that now can I?

What I always felt like we needed to do was to participate in a hobby together.

I am going to do a little bit more initiating some friendly calls and then see if and where he takes it. I won't initiate a date though.

It's so different then when you meet someone new and you are engaged and flirting and your heart races a bit when you talk to them. This is more of a testing the waters, figuring out what to say and what to say that won't bring up resentments. Everything a bit formal and cautious. It would be more relaxing having a conversation with someone I am interviewing with then husband right now!

Btw, I am by no means complaining. I am in a much better place then I was months ago. There is a chance our marriage can work. It's just that things are certainly not a cake walk. In your mind you want that movie reconciliation where both people cry and hug and pour their hearts out. This is nothing like that. We do not live together. We don't even date.

I don't even know if he is attracted to me anymore.

"I don't even know if he is attracted to me anymore."
I don't know either Julie, we're in the same boat.

All you can do is be the best Julie you can be, that's attractive. The rest is in he's head. I don't want to change to be something for someone else, to be an actor. I going to be me and if that's not good enough, so be it. Your a good woman with a kind compassionate heart, that's attractive, at least to a man with his head on straight.

Julie, instead of 'anymore', say 'right now'. Attraction is a changing thing. I'm not always consistently attracted to H. It depends on how he behaves towards me, and how attractive he makes himself.

Hey Julie, just stopping by to see where you are at. Hope the radio silence is only for good things. Lots of love. Thinking about you. Jellyxxx

Hi Julie, I am also wondering how you are. Still snowed in? My kids don't go back to school until Monday! Hope you are doing well.

Hi guys

Going away tomorrow. So excited!

Was really upset that husband did not call me back and had a whole rant written but just deleted it cause he called me. We spoke casually. No sensed anger in there so happy about that.

I feel like a pathetic school girl.

Will post soon!

Painter I have to think about what will make me attractive before I act. Insecurity does not. Confidence will. I needed that reminder, but controlling myself so I think I'm ok

Just came back from ultimate GAL weekend. It was fun socializing with friends. While I talked about husband situations, I wasn't emotionally consumed with it while away. Really I was just having fun.

I need to now get back into a routine. I have a lot of doubts about husband and I'm feeling a bit depressed.

1. A common thought is that "he doesn't want this bad enough" or he would be doing more.

2. Another thought is that he left us for my parents to take care of. He never offered to give money. I always had to ask. He needed to be taken to court to pay child support. And then he was mad at me to have done that without asking first, despite the fact that I asked him twice and he said he could not afford it. (He earns 3 figures and is living free with mom) And despite the fact that he told me he did not want to reconcile and had just come back from a nice long vacation. What does this say about his CHARACTER? He ability to not accept any blame? This really bothers me and it's hard for me to come to tems with. I make excuses for him leaving us (he was having health issues, under stress, ) and that's hard to do but how do I justify him placing this financial and logistical burden on my parents.

The right thing for him to do would have been to set us up in an apartment.

I am ashamed for him and have little respect for him as a man because of this.

3. If he was capable of doing this once, he is capable of doing it again. I see many people coming back to these boards after DBing in past. Character is character no? Why go back with a known offender?

4. I am having a hard time seeing good parts of our relationship. I Don't remember having fun with him. I only remember him acting selfishly. (I know this is remaking history so I try not to focus on this much)

Hi Julie,

Good to hear from you and that you had such a nice weekend!

I think some men start out wanting to be providers, but then they get resentful at some point. H has been talking a lot about how he feels he has to do it all alone, how I'm not contributing or doing everything at home since he provides the majority of the income, etc. I sense that it has to do with not feeling respected and the 'king of the castle'.

They have a point in that we are modern women who don't cater on them hand and foot, but at the same time we're not the breadwinners.

I don't know if this could fit your situation?

If you feel this way about H, it sounds like you should be very able to drop the rope and DB for your own sake right now. You're right, he has to make changes, too. I can relate very, very much to what you speak about when it comes to character - but then I also think about what pain can do in someone who doesn't have the benefit of a female emotional expressive upbringing.

It's not easy...

Painter,

Thank you always for your perspective. Husband defiantly was resentful, although his resentment made little sense. I worked part time once kids were born. To return to work full time would mean we would have lost money because child care was more expensive then my full time salary. Logistically it would have been difficult as well as I work a lot if evening hrs. Crazy thing was I had asked him to watch kids on Saturday so I could take on per diem and he said no because it meant he would need to wake up.
When I asked him how I would handle child care situation he actually said " other people do it figure it out"

When I think of this blatant cruelty and disrespect and irrationality I want to go get those divorce papers right now...at the time I was trying my hardest to just agree and divorce bust.

I just read somewhere that " feelings are just feelings and they change". I understand I don't always have this feeling. But I frequently do. It is hard for me to get over the abandonment.

Dropping the rope would not be hard for me. After he told me he did not want to move on, it was dropped and I was moving on. Yes he was villified, but that helped me and I had no other choice as he did not want to reconcile. It's when he told me he wants to give reconciliation a try that I have become very confused because he is making minimal effort.

His stonewalling is truly detestable to me. It makes me wish for him to greatly suffer. It makes me want to end this. There is nothing more painful to me then the way he is handling this.

What I truly want to say and am considering it is being upright and saying..."if you truly want reconciliation to work, you need to understand that the less talking, calling, lack of effort on your behalf is only adding distance for me. It hurts me and makes me not care about reconciling. I am very close to moving on. I would rather be divorced then in limbo".

Yes it's a.ultimatum. I won't resort to this, but the truth is I am so capable of villifying him that mentally it won't be too hard to move on. He left us and I will never forget this.

I am going to call and strike up friendly conversation and hopefully my mood will change.

Julie, I have no doubt that you could use your anger to shield yourself from any grief and easily move on from H.

What's not as clear is whether you if you replaced your husband and your marriage with another relationship down the road whether you would be able to navigate through the stormy seasons. Or whether you'd be able to open up again given the pain you've felt. I talked about some of this on my new thread.

You know you're one of my favorite posters. Something about your battle is very important to me. Since your first thread, what was it, 'burning up with anger' or something, you've been really angry. Like scary angry. Women sometimes say men get scary when they get out of control angry. But men have a saying about a scorned woman. It's scary on both sides.

Nothing wrong with those feelings, but I think they're telling you something. I think they're telling you you're in a tremendous amount of pain. And while we all go through pain, and I went through my own mini-universe of anger, yours stands out as a bit red hot even among these forums. That tells me that something is causing you more pain that most people on these forums have to deal with.

I agree these are just feelings and thoughts, and you should follow your beliefs and not act on them. But I also believe your anger is trying to tell you something. It's trying to tell you to do something about your hurt. And doing something isn't protecting yourself from H. It's taking care of some exposes nerves you have that are allowing his actions to trigger such a response.

Again, in my thread I wrote about some of the things that were hardest for me to accept. What about this makes you the most angry? What about this hurts you the most?

Somewhere in there there's a he11 of a 180. I'd love your M to work out, but personally I'd love even more for you to find peace in limbo.

Julie, I haven't been posting much because I just feel like I am saying the same things over and over and not really adding anything new. (In general I mean, not just to you.) I just wanted to say hi and say I am still reading your posts. Still in your corner!

Feeling very raw and emotional right now. I called my husband on my way home from work with the hopes of a talk that would help connect me. The more distance and space, the more of a stranger he becomes. I want to shake him and tell him, "don't you see. I am about to give up. Do something, before it becomes too late".
Instead I made small talk and he was friendly, no anger in his voice but nothing beyond superficial conversation. He was packing and couldn't stay on long, which only added to my feelings of detachment and rejection.
I felt compelled to call back and start some type of fight or push for relationship talk, anything to make for some attention, but I didnt. Instead I turned on radio real loud. Radio head and tool was on and I just drove home crying. Something I hadn't done for a long time. His actions are saying it all. He doesn't call, he does nothing to work for reconciliation. He doesn't need me or want me back bad enough. Why am I continuing to waste my energy on this? It's all spelled out for me quite clearly. Why should I be pathetic, hanging on to someone that is certainly "no special unicorn" as another poster once said to me.

I wish I could go for a long, fast run but It it is late and dark and raining. I have pent up emotions and I long for emotional and physical connection. But I have no one.

I try to remind myself that when he called/ texted me while I was on my vacation, I was rushing off phone with him because I had too much going on, and it was not a reflection of my desire for reconciliation. If he had pushed for real talk while I was busy I would have resented it so I am not going to do it now. But I still expect more. If a female that a man was attracted to called, a man would make time for her over most things. The fact that I have been put behind everything for so long says enough. No I am not a special unicorn either. But still. I am/was his wife.

i don't think he will ever be willing to work on it or perhaps maybe when it's too late. But even that I am doubting.

Julie
I want to give you a hug.

As we both know this is not on our time table. And what we want doesn't work at our pace.

crappy, but true.

You said you are almost done, I think he knows you are not. Keep the ship going on the course it is. Play a little touch and go with no expectations. I know you believe the distance is hurting, but who knows what he thinks Maybe he feels it hasn't been much at all.

I remember a few months into my while pile of doodoo that W and i were in a conversation about everything( which I wish never happened) and she said you act like this has been going on a year or something. To me it felt like an eternity. to her it was a day or two.

we are just on two different mental phases.

Decide what you want to do or can handle emotionally and move that way.

Julie!!! I really wish I could take you out for coffee and hash this out in person. I am feeling a lot of what you are feeling, could have written your post almost word for word. Except for the running, I have no desire to run, I wish I did, that would be healthy. (sorry to make a joke)

I am like you. I want to shake things up and see where they fall. I want an answer. I don't want to DB any more. But then, I think, what if he just needs a little more space? What if trusting the process will really turn things around? What if....?

Julie, you are not pathetic. You are strong. You are fighting a battle between pride vs. honoring your commitment and putting your own needs on hold. A battle between reacting vs. self control. That is strength, not weakness. You are going to be able to hold your head up high no matter what happens.

You want what is best for your children, and rushing into divorce, or pushing for a decision from someone who is not ready to make one, is not necessarily going to be the best for anyone. So at what point do you give up? At what point do you stop thinking that change is maybe just around the corner, that maybe one more month of space will lead to healing vs. more distance, more of a disconnect.

I do not know the answer. I do know that I want to be with a man who wants me. Who not only wants me, but knows he wants me, who sees my value, who feels proud and lucky to have me by his side.

And I also know that reactivity will not develop these feelings in H. Anger will not either. Patience, healing and growing myself might. It might not. But it might.

I don't know what there is left to do but to stay patient. It might just take us really and truly moving on to make our H's realize what they have lost. And it might be too late by then.

I wish someone could sit down and have a man to man talk with our H's. I wish they could think about what life would be like to have another man take their place- another man being a step dad to their children, an H to their w. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it might Julie. Your H and my H are not going to hear it from us. They are either going to come around slowly and we may or may not still be available. It is the hardest thing ever. The most absolutely heart wrenching thing. But we can not control the situation.

And Julie, I read your ambivalence, I read your anger and your feelings of being disconnected and "done". But I also read the emotion and passion in your words, and I think that behind the anger and frustration there is still a lot of love there. I don't think you are ready to give up. I think you have more fight in you. And I know you are underestimating your own strength.

Get through tonight Julie. Keep moving, keep breathing, keep venting here. At some point I believe you will have an answer. At least that is what I am telling myself!

Zues,

The funny part is that coworkers, and friends would describe me as mild mannered with an enormous amount of patience. IRL I am pretty easy going.

I think with husband it's different and I don't know why. Perhaps we really weren't compatible. Perhaps he is more difficult then most, although I would have to be extremely egotistical to think it's all him. Maybe I am high maintenance and have higher expectations from him then anyone else. I don't know.

I think my red hot anger comes from the fact that I am not following my beliefs. If I were, I would have filed the divorce papers long ago. I feel that I am humiliating myself by allowing him to treat me so poorly and not just moving on. What he did is not acceptable to my moral code.

In my family, both extended and immediate there is no such thing as walking away from your marriage. Walking away from kids is unheard of. There has been no cheating (we are so gossipy, if there was it would not have stayed secret) and no one has ever been divorced. They certainly are not a bunch of pollyannas. they can be quite dysfunctional. But no one ever left their families. it is understood that marriage is not always sunshine and rainbows, but you committed to something so you deal with it.

When my husband left us, it involved my family because it was set up so that legally he would have minimal financial obligations. He let them shoulder the financial burden and relied on them to take care of his children.

This completely goes against my core beliefs and values. I am not even saying that he needed to stay with me. But i do feel that one needs to meet their commitments.

He shirked his responsibility. I never in my wildest imagination could have predicted that he would be capable of doing this. And I am angry at him because I held him to higher standards and he failed me. I hold myself to these very same standards.

I read these posts here written by husbands whose wives have left them for other men, neglected their children, squandered their savings. These men are still supporting their wives and pining for them. I criticized my husband for not spending time with kids and for waking up way past noon instead of helping me. I criticized husband for investing in luxury car instead of saving for house. I Am not a domestic person. But I was EXTREMELY loyal to my husband. WAY Beyond what I have observed in other women. I worked and contributed as well. I have a great job and have kept myself in great physical shape. I am angry that this is what I have in return.

I think I am just rambling right now, because it is hard for me to understand why anyone would not be mad in my situation. I read others situations and feel mad for the posters on here as well. And you are right. If there was infidelity that I discovered, I would act even more of a scorned woman. I don't care how ugly it is. I truly do not believe I deserve this treatment. And I keep, trying and trying to make sense of it and come up with all the ways that I am selfish and wrong and to blame myself because I just want to be able to forgive his actions and not become a divorce statistic. I question if I myself have unfair expectations (yes I watched the videos) and I have too much if a sense of entitlement.

But the truth is, his actions are appalling. He has no remourse. He feels entitled And I am in great conflict.

Julie, I know exactly how you feel. I am not allowed to call or text my wife unless it's really important. She only talk's to me to coordinate household affairs. I am so alone. How do we process the treatment we receive from them? How do we put this behind us? How do you not become bitter?

Thank you OTW and Fo

I truly appreciate your words.

My 180 is not acting on these feelings. Your words have helped more then you can know. Thank you.

Julie, I am constantly amazed at how much I can relate to certain people, you being one of them. I want you to know that you really are not alone in this struggle. I don't always post because sometimes I feel like all I am saying is "me too." But Julie, me too!

I am feeling strong today. You can borrow some of my strength right now while I have it. Find some peace tonight Julie, you deserve it. And you too Mutatio!

Good night.

Fo,

I dealt with almost a year of similar stuff that you did with husband, before my husband left. I understand how hard it is to deal with someone so irrational and unfair. So yes my husband has only been gone for 7 months, but add about 10 months of someone completely detached and sleeping in the basement to that.
I remember him literally exploding in anger because 2 old ladies went ahead of him in Panera, while he was back and looking at the menu. It was really bad. He resented the obligation of having lunch with family because it prevented him from being fully exploited by a company that continues to underpay.

Now, I had read books and knew not to argue. But did not immerse myself with dbing. I was bad about pursuing relationship talks. during that time I went into pursual mode. I remember packing all these lunches and breakfasts for him (because his need was service) coffee to go. Uneaten dinners. I remember not voicing issues that were really unfair to me so that I wouldn't make waves. You have done much better then me but I know what you went through before he left for business.

My H was looking for excuses to leave and I feel like he was intentionally neglecting us because he knew I would eventually call him out on it. Which is what happened. I made nasty comment about him not spending time with kids on Father's Day and to him that was the excuse he needed to leave. ( I dont know if you remember that story. I asked for it to be deleted) The kids did not even know he left, he was around so little.

The only thing that keeps me here is remembering that after kids were born I was pretty bad too. i was sleep deprived and Felt that he was not pulling his weight. I imagine that he was stressed at work and felt like I was not pulling my weight because I was only part time.

There Are 2 big differences though. I never neglected children (babies then) and I never walked away from our marriage. I am still coming to terms with that. He has not apologized for it and feels like he had no choice, which to me demonstrates a lack of remourse and responsiblity.

I have to say. It is only recently that I am not hearing anger and resentment in his voice. There are some changes...I notice he was on time for morning kids obligation and he came over at 1030 for birthday brunch. (Getting out before 2 on weekends was problem for him).

But I get disgusted thinking of how he was this past year and overwhelmed with resentment and Anger.

Julie, I must have missed the first part of your story, I didn't realize that you had those original 10 months of suck preceding the separation. I didn't find DB until 4 months into it, I was doing everything wrong up until then. So I am on a very similar timeline as you. BD, and then 10 months of living together in this awful way, he spent 3-4 months on the sofa but then moved back into bed but probably shouldn't have been in there. Now gone for 1 month so far, but it is "for work" so that kind of gives us a way to be separated without being separated. I also spent those 10 months packing lunches and making coffee and "serving" him.

A few times I thought my H was spewing intentionally so that I would kick him out, but I really don't think he was thinking of anything but his anger and his status as a "victim". This is the hardest thing. I can not believe I've lasted this long, but I know a lot of DB'ers have been at this even longer. I am disgusted too. Alternating with feeling very rejected.

I hope for you that the lack of anger in his voice is a change that will continue.

Fo, Preceding him leaving, we had a really stressful year. We had moved in with my parents to save money. I had some pretty serious health issues and he just escaped into work, slowly detaching. He has some validity to what he was upset at me for, but I also think he was not empathetic to what I had experienced (pregnancy, cancer diagnosis and bad miscarriage and strong desire to get pregnant again) he became nasty and resentful and basically isolated himself to basement. He suggested marriage counseling but he never had time to actually do any of the exercises she suggested. The sessions consisted of him yelling at me and complaining to therapist about my anxiety and refusal to work full time. I pursued and became a pathetic mess. He was disappearing to gym, going out with friends and basically avoiding me. I was constantly asking about affair. He continues to deny and would tell me " how could I possibly handle another woman. It's the last thing I could deal with" I was following my own version of divorce busting, but really he wanted space and I kept pushing relationship talks. He was sulky, nasty. Would say things like "let your parents watch the kids for once"...meanwhile they were bending over backwards to help me. He would get mad at them because to schedule marriage counseling they did not want to babysit in the middle of the day, and he would not schedule appointments early in morning because he did not want to wake up early. The selfishness and sense of entitlement was just so beyond anything normal..

To this day, I cry thinking about being pregnant and literally 2 days post surgery and him waking me up at 7 30 am telling me it's my turn to watch kids. He needs to sleep. (This was Sunday and no he does not work night shifts)

I am having a hard time getting past a lot of this, because I can't understand how he rationalized these behaviors. I know I am not supposed to diagnose but I often felt like I was dealing with someone on the spectrum. (This has been questioned by others as well)

I am sorry. I am more moody and dramatic and negative these past few days. I'm making myself a victim. It's not hormones. I'm wondering if it's a crash after drinking while on vacation.
Or its just a dip in my own emotional roller coaster.

Really I am just trying to be patient and take it day by day without venting to husband.

Dang roller coasters. That is all it is. Just know it goes back up.

Long winding post warning.

Quote:

And I keep, trying and trying to make sense of it and come up with all the ways that I am selfish and wrong and to blame myself because I just want to be able to forgive his actions and not become a divorce statistic. I question if I myself have unfair expectations (yes I watched the videos) and I have too much if a sense of entitlement.

Good.

I'm not for a moment saying you're wrong to feel angry, or that something is wrong with you for feeling this way. I do believe it is your job to control your behavior and grow where you need so you can start to feel differently. The above quote is spot on.

The last few pages of posts is obviously raw anger. I get that the DB forum is an outlet to release emotion beyond your ability to cope. Before I continue I want to quote something I posted the other day:

Quote:

Venting is when external stresses exceed your coping mechanisms and you find yourself boiling over in the red zone, so you do two things...first you blow off some steam to a friend, but then you look in the mirror and ask yourself what you could do differently to either prevent the situation or handle it better in the future. In this case venting is a useful technique to get out of the red zone so you can get back in control, and it is centered around accountability.

Negativity starts the same, boiling over in the red zone and blowing off steam to a friend...but then it ends with the person pointing to the world as being the problem, and concluding they can't possibly be ok given that the world is the way it is.

Venting leads to regaining control, accepting reality, and growing. Negativity leads to cheeseless tunnels.

This is all my conjecture by the way, but by this example, the difference really comes down to what you do with the anger after you spew it out. Do you decide that you were right to feel angry, it was the only possible reaction to your environment, that you are the victim, and that the only way to feel differently is to change your environment? Or do you look inward at the expectations and entitlements you mentioned earlier? I love that you're trying to do the latter, and if you need to spew to get to the point you can look at that then please do so.

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I think my red hot anger comes from the fact that I am not following my beliefs. If I were, I would have filed the divorce papers long ago...

...He shirked his responsibility. I never in my wildest imagination could have predicted that he would be capable of doing this. And I am angry at him because I held him to higher standards and he failed me. I hold myself to these very same standards.

I'll bet he feels the same way. I'll bet he felt so neglected and unfulfilled he felt his options were suicide or divorce...but he didn't believe in either option, so instead of acting on his feelings he moved out and tried to get some space to try to create a situation where he could feel differently. Compared to the number of H's that simply file and fire up a replacement relationship I think this is pretty stand up of him. I totally understand how you feel betrayed, shattered, and violated by him...I just think that if you guys go on to share a 50 year marriage and you look back at the 2-3 years you went through here...I think you'll feel differently about his character once you're out of the pain and you can see things more clearly.

As for this comment:

Quote:

I never neglected children (babies then) and I never walked away from our marriage.

I'm sure XW could say the same thing. But there is something else she DID neglect. Something that caused every bit as much pain to me in the marriage as the divorce itself did. Something that is so foundationally important to me that it was as important as the children to her.

When you say you hold yourself to high standards, that's true, but you hold yourself to YOUR high standards. I would bet if you asked him you failed in his standards. And if those standards currently include being forgiving and loving you're not doing so hot at the moment either.

That all said, leaving the past in the past for a moment...what are you offering to bring him back? Is unbridled anger being the woman only a fool would leave? If he left because he couldn't live that way anymore, are you sending the message that you've taken responsibility for your contributions to the breakdown of the marriage, and you're ready and willing to do things differently? Most importantly...if H died in a crash tomorrow, would you feel regretful that you didn't unload all of your spew onto him, or would you feel regretful that you didn't show the love deep in your heart? I appreciate that you're not spewing at him directly and are trying to control yourself around him, and that's great. But you can't act your way through piecing or a marriage, so at some point you have to figure out how you can actually be a person he can partner with.

I know this isn't easy to read, I also know it isn't 'right' it's discussion, I also know that your anger is very real...but most importantly I know enough to know that you, even if you disagree, won't hate me for sharing my thoughts. And that, Julie, is a sign of my respect for you, because if I was afraid of being raged at I wouldn't have been able to be this open with you. If you feel I'm painting you to be a monster that's not the case. As I've said, it's normal to have these feelings, and it's impressive that you've controlled yourself and are trying to see past the red goggles. Truly. If anything Julie I think that I've had a lot of anger myself towards XW and society and I've spent a ton of time thinking of these very things.

I come back to the point I made before. This anger is telling you something. It's telling you that you have exposed nerves. Entitlements? Expectations? Maybe. I have really been challenging myself and I keep asking myself "WHY". Why am I so angry? Because XW did _____. Why is that so important? Because I think that she should have done ________. Why is that so important? Because I deserve/need/want ________. Why do I need/deserve/want _____?

It's that last question that I've wrestled with. Is it because I can't be happy without that? Because I feel there is something missing and broken in my life and ________ makes me feel ok about it?

For me the answer was yes. I wasn't ok with myself, here, and now. I depended on XW's love to take the edge off. It was like I was in pain, and she was the pain killer, and she PROMISED to always be there to numb my pain, and now she wasn't, and so she was at fault for my pain. That's how it looked. That's how it felt.

I have since removed myself from the pain. I am no longer living in pain. I am ok. XW wants to D? Great, there's your signed D papers. Not what I wanted, but your journey. And frankly while I wouldn't have left her, I wouldn't have left her because maybe I was so dependent on the pain killer that I couldn't have, and that my so called 'values' and 'standards' I hold myself to are simply disguises of my neediness. And looking back I can really see how my dependence on her led me to controlling behavior that made life unbearable for her.

We're different people. I don't have the answers. I just know you have work to do. You're doing it, so that's great. Just don't think of him as a bad guy or morally inferior, because that's not what morally superior people do.

Great post, Zeus.

Zues, thank you for your post.

I understand that when I discuss my anger with friends and family, of course they side with me and husband comes across as a villain. It won't help me to have everyone agree and clamor on with "you go girl" speeches. So I appreciate the honesty and no kid gloves necessary.

Very interesting analysis on venting and negativity. I also understand that my rants and anger seems to be cyclical. Meaning that nothing good is permanently coming from it. It's not just venting since it's the same old stuff over and over (even im sick of it) It's negativity. Which is a major issue for me. I owned it early on in my threads but have never been able to overcome it. During my first conversation with DB coach, she asked me what my husband's complaints about me were and I told her, negativity. It's how I was raised.

It's not permanent. But during certain moods I become overwhelmed by it. (Kind of like when your in the heat of an argument and you just forget to validate or use dialogue or visual imagery) Sometimes discussing gets me out of it. Your perspective helped get me out of it because it allowed me to see husband as I once saw him.

It feels better for me to not be consumed with anger, but calm and peaceful. I can think more clearly and i look forward to life and the future. But I don't know how to make it happen on my own. I talked to a couple of counselors about the break up and they kind of just agreed with me like the "you go girl" friends and told me I am entitled to anger and to accept it and that I don't have to justify it by bringing up husbands point of view..that they were supposed to do that. You also have to understand that in person, I come across as very sweet and believe it or not calming, So I can understand therapists approach. I don't go anymore.

Zues, you said that you wrestle with your anger as well. I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do. and yes. It is controlling.

zues, I also hope more then anything that your analysis of my husband is true.

You are right. It's hard for me to see the positive.. That he did not file or start a new relationship. He said he needed space. He said that he did not want to live. (Not that he was suicidal) that he couldn't survive without leaving ( he was having serious cardiac problems..that I always tried to help him with). I did not hear this. I only saw the negative...that he left and caused me tons of pain. My family has demonized him and he cannot understand it.

Actually, it's hard for me to see the positive but it's harder for me to stay committed to the positive when my emotions (feeling rejected, hurt, vilified, conned) take over. This is really what I need to learn.

Thank you for this perspective.

Quote:

Zues, you said that you wrestle with your anger as well. I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do. and yes. It is controlling.

Oh yes. I had some fiery furnaces burning within me. If I had been around the Shire, Frodo wouldn't have had to trek across the Misty Mountains to find a way to melt down the One Ring if you know what I mean. (I am having SO much fun reading that to my kids I had to work that in)

The funny thing is that I, too, would be considered calm and reasonable by my friends. It's like it was all super deep in me. Really- my anger was directed at myself. Perfectionism and feelings of inadequacy that drove me to insane levels. Then W got too close to me, and the umbrella of protection that I gave to the rest of the world no longer covered her. She was part of me in my own mind, and so I'd start holding her to the same standards I'd hold myself to...and treating her the way I treated myself. Mercilessly driving because it had to be better.

I've learned since then that I have to fix how I treat myself. There is no way to be abusive towards myself and treat my partner compassionately. What is done to the self is done to the partner. If I moved to the Sahara desert, my XW would have had to live in the heat with me. If I moved to the arctic, she'd have had to freeze with me. Well, when I decided to take up residence in the 7th circle of Hell, I brought her there with me.

And once I moved out of Hell, well, my soul is no longer on fire, so I am no longer desperate to have her comfort me. I'd LIKE a partner I can be intimate with in many ways...but the desire for connections that aren't possible in this world looks more damaging than inspiring if it leads me to judge, criticize, and not appreciate the damaged, frail, and limited connections we can actually achieve in this world. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Easy for me to say. I'm the single one talking theory. You're in the middle of the storm. But you're tougher than nails, I wouldn't want to bet against you.

Wow, there is so much food for thought in what you wrote in these two posts, Zues.

I have to think more about this one: "And frankly while I wouldn't have left her, I wouldn't have left her because maybe I was so dependent on the pain killer that I couldn't have, and that my so called 'values' and 'standards' I hold myself to are simply disguises of my neediness."

Right now, I get to relive my youth reading the kids Roald Dahl. Laugh out loud funny. Like some of the funniest books I have ever read funny. I look forward to the fantasy and sci fi phase I am positive they will eventually love. You worked frodo in there well. Lol (I actually never read the last book of the lord of the rings trilogy. And I like that genre! )

I can relate to regretting how you treated your spouse. My husband would tell me that I had patience for everyone else but him. He also complained about how hyper critical and negative I was regarding him. I told him " I'm like that with myself" and he acknowledged that I have never been satisfied with anything about myself and how crazy it was. He also said he doesn't want the kids to be like that. I agree. He blames it on my parents and said he feels bad for me and how I was raised.

I have been learning to accept and laugh at some of my imperfections. But only some.

Perfect is the enemy of good. I like that.

I started with Roald for my kids as well. Danny the Champion of the World is a cool story. He has a way of making ordinary life rather mystical. Glad you're finding some good times in the middle of this.

Thanks to all for being so conversational about such hard stuff.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

Zues, thank you for your post.

I understand that when I discuss my anger with friends and family, of course they side with me and husband comes across as a villain. It won't help me to have everyone agree and clamor on with "you go girl" speeches. So I appreciate the honesty and no kid gloves necessary.

Very interesting analysis on venting and negativity. I also understand that my rants and anger seems to be cyclical. Meaning that nothing good is permanently coming from it. It's not just venting since it's the same old stuff over and over (even im sick of it) It's negativity. Which is a major issue for me. I owned it early on in my threads but have never been able to overcome it. During my first conversation with DB coach, she asked me what my husband's complaints about me were and I told her, negativity. It's how I was raised.

It's not permanent. But during certain moods I become overwhelmed by it. (Kind of like when your in the heat of an argument and you just forget to validate or use dialogue or visual imagery) Sometimes discussing gets me out of it. Your perspective helped get me out of it because it allowed me to see husband as I once saw him.

It feels better for me to not be consumed with anger, but calm and peaceful. I can think more clearly and i look forward to life and the future. But I don't know how to make it happen on my own. I talked to a couple of counselors about the break up and they kind of just agreed with me like the "you go girl" friends and told me I am entitled to anger and to accept it and that I don't have to justify it by bringing up husbands point of view..that they were supposed to do that. You also have to understand that in person, I come across as very sweet and believe it or not calming, So I can understand therapists approach. I don't go anymore.

Zues, you said that you wrestle with your anger as well. I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do. and yes. It is controlling.

Julie,

I hope you don't mind if I provide some reflection on yours and Zues' discussion. You both have this well handled and my offerings are meager in comparison.

I support the path that Zues is highlighting to you, he knows his stuff inside out and backwards. Salute Zues!

There's a couple of sentences that jumped out at me:

Sometimes discussing gets me out of it. Your perspective helped get me out of it because it allowed me to see husband as I once saw him.

I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do.

There's a couple of Zues' reflections to about pain killers that need to be read in context of the above sentences.

Just reflecting on some of your previous comments about you pursuing or seeking relationship conversations and your H not being a great conversationalist or shutting down conversation.

Julie I am wondering about the possibility that you are not so much angry with husband for causing your unhappiness, but more that he wont support you to resolve it.

Julie you have identified your own pattern of negative thinking and it being cyclical in nature, and that sometimes discussing "gets it out". Your writing back and forth with Zues appears to provide you with some relief from the negativity and sense of anger. Zues' understanding, compassion, validation, attention to detail and intellect appear to soothe you.

Is this what you are looking for from H? Is this your pain killer?

It seems to me that H doesn't provide the tool for you for which to self soothe or to gain personal insight about him or you. There's a few other things in there too that Zues has highlighted.

I feel like you are angry and resentful because he leaves you all alone with these bad feelings and was the one that you anticipated would never let you feel bad. He would be the one that would understand and make it all better. He would listen and love and support. He promised, he committed not to leave you all alone with these bad, awful cycle of negative feelings.

I could be way off track Julie, but just some observations that may have little value. Please feel free to ignore.

I'll leave you two this very healing conversation, with our lovely Zues.

PS Julie, I wonder if it is time to revisit a good therapist. And Julie my baggage with Mr Ex and Mr M looks very similar.

PS: I missed you while you were away, but so glad you got some down time.
Much Julie

Jellyxxx

Jellyb,

I am always greatful for any reflection regarding my situation, especially reflection from you. (Which is never meager)

I have thought a lot about what you said. And yes, I think my anger does come from feeling stonewalled by husband. I do feel like he does not and never has worked with me as a family unit. We had separate everything. He made his own decisions entirely separate from me and when I complained or reacted he viewed it as me trying to control.

An example. He says he is going away for a few days.. Time comes and kids are sick. Instead of saying to me "hey, do you mind if I still go? You have work and it will be difficult". In which case I would say "you never get to go away, just go I will be fine". He doesn't say anything he just goes and I get mad. He doesn't even consult on the decision to take a trip. It is like that with everything and when I complain, it becomes me trying to control him.

We have never worked together as a team. If he had approached me with "let's go over a budget together and see what we need to live on our own and save" I would have tried to figure out a way to earn extra income. Instead he became resentful. Would say things like "other wives work full time.figure it out". And just sulked and gave me nasty looks. I remember going to one of his friends weddings and taking my car because of the weather. It had no gas. He pulled over and asked for my credit card, in which case I said I don't have it. He was annoyed, but paid cause he had no choice. But to me, it was so cheap and inconsiderate and not gentlemanly. (It was his friends wedding!). I am his wife, not a buddy. And even if I was a buddy that's pretty crappy. He earns 3 x my salary.

When he left, there was no communication. He would give me no answers. Whenever I asked what his goals were he became angry because I was pushing for answers. His therapist (actually our therapist who began seeing him privately after I stopped seeing her privately) told him not to answer my questions because it is not fair for me to ask. (When I was seeing her privately, she had suggested his lack of transparency could be a gambling problems, which it is not). I am afraid of therapists now.

Anyway for us to work as a couple it would require him to communicate with me and be capable of working together as a family unit. Then I would not complain. I am quite rational when someone explains and talks things out with me. Iam not afraid of being wrong or considering another persons perception of ideas. But I have to be approached with it.

The funny thing is he always says our problem is that "we don't communicate".

Side note: he is only child and very independent. Very mathematical, technical, and mechanical. He has absolutely no interest in the humanitiies. I am probably his complete opposite in that aspect.

Jellyb, is this a common family issue that you come across in your line of work? If so how do families navigate this?

JellyB And Zues

I do often feel like zues can offer me my husband's perspective. Something that my husband cannot communicate to me and that I cannot see because I am so immersed in my feelings and world. His thoughts do help to make me intellectualize what's going on instead of viewing it based on emotions and then I no longer hate husband. I thank you for that.

When I do talk to my husband, I feel better about him and am willing to make compromises. But this past of him avoiding relationship talks and me pushing for them makes things akward, difficult, and not realistic right now.

I don't know if it is really how my husband feels, and I don't know if it is just something I grab onto because it is what I want to hear.., an explanation for what to me is very cruel behavior because it prevents the what I don't want which is divorce.

Either way, it's important to weigh things from all sides before making rational decisions.

How do you detach from the emotions to become more rational and fair? I also do t want to get walked all over either.

I'm also interested by that question JulieH.

Julie,

Also being M to an only child engineer... I can relate to a lot of what you describe. For instance trying to go over the budget together. Annoyed: "If you can't handle it, I'll just take over that as well - in addition to everything else I do!" Um, no - it was just about both knowing what's happening financially and being on the same page.

I have noticed that H is not about compromising or finding win-win solutions. Any difference of opinion is a win-lose situation for him, it's about winning, not finding agreement or common ground. This has become worse over the years - at one point, I remember him using the phrase 'I see where you're coming from' if we didn't have the same view on something.

My impression is that he didn't expect us to continue to have differences of opinions throughout the M. It was supposed to have stopped at some point.

Actually, I just remembered a suggestion from DB coach. (She had listened to probably the same rants I post on here) She said make a list of everything positive husband does. I did this in beginning and then stopped because it was really being done as temp checking. Now it will be done so I can empathize.

Anyway this weekend him and mother went to warm sunny place to visit family. I am 99.9% positive MIL would have wanted to bring boys. Anyone who has kept up with my sitch woukd obviously know how devastating this would be to me. I would be so anxious to have others look after them when I am not around. I would literally be sick. It would have been a battle and tons of friction. Husband did not even ask and he is their father so he would have been justified to do so. I am actually hoping to take boys to Missouri in future and would never expect husband to give me a hard time. So I know I Am actually the one that is difficult. (Although no one watches them closer then I do)

New Thread:

When the goal is positivity