Here again after 9 years and struggling 3

[inpain]

My last thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2639973&page=1

[Ancaire]

Hello, IP! I was thinking about you today - new real insights, just sympathy and a hope that you're doing as well as you can.

You're still so early in this situation. I can't believe anyone has the nerve to expect you to "move right along" and be okay, would you? I think that's got more to do with the emotional immaturity of the person with the expectation than it does anyone else.

I was lucky enough to be raised in a fairly divorce free environment, but I went to school with friends whose parents D, and I could tell it was hard, hard, hard! I always felt so badly for families that it happened to. I feel even worse now.

Take as long as you need to recover, as long as you're recovering. This journey is definitely two steps forward, and one back. It's hard, it's heartbreaking, and it takes as long as it takes. Every person's recovery will differ from another's. There is no timeline to "feeling all better".

I think people feel badly because they don't know what to say. Instead of learning, they'd rather [i[you[/i] felt better, so they wouldn't have to wonder. We live in an immature society - me, me, me! Just let it go.

Be good to yourself. Read something funny. Take a bubble-bath. Give yourself a facial - just do something nice for you.

(((Inpain)))

[Ancaire]

I'm really missing the edit button after the mess I just made out of your post. I hope it makes sense.

[inpain]

I was lucky enough to be raised in a fairly divorce free environment, but I went to school with friends whose parents D, and I could tell it was hard, hard, hard! I always felt so badly for families that it happened to. I feel even worse now.

Hi Ancaire, thanks for checking on me! I was raised in a fairly divorce free environment too. I think that's one of the reasons I am struggling so much. Only one person in my entire extended family is divorced. I feel ashamed and guilty for not 'making it' on top of everything else I feel.

I am not doing well at all today. Yesterday was a very bad day. I will come back and explain it all later as I have to get to work now.

LOL at the edit button. I'd love it back too!

[Zues126]

Originally Posted By: Zues126
This is short term. Remember that. In the not too distant future there will be a schedule where he has to pick up the kids, or you drop them off at his place.

I wouldn't do anything about it until you reach that point. You can't force him to do anything anyway, and anything you do will come across as controlling...in the way he'll perceive it you'd be 'using the kids to control him'. Don't do it.



I see what you're saying Zues, but what about doing something about what it is doing to my kids? Would a text asking if he's still coming still be perceived as pursuing/using kids to control him? Why should he get to just treat everyone however he likes and have no consequences whatsoever? There must be some way of making the situation better without it being seen as controlling?

Wow, the old "I get it...BUT" followed by sentences that demonstrate a clear lack of understanding.

I think 'protecting your kids' from him could turn out poorly. Look, there are things he can do that will hurt your kids that you simply can't legislate against. If he moved to another country and never saw them again it would destroy your children. What can you do to prevent that? What if he isn't emotionally available? What if he raises his voice a lot when they're together, but doesn't do anything that 'crosses the line' with any type of social service?

You can't control WAH's behavior. And if there is one place in the universe you shouldn't ever, ever be, it's between WAH and his children. You may be mama bear and want to protect the children, but being between a man and his kids is not doing the kids and favors.

It's his show. The more you do to try to control or influence it, the more he'll resent you, and the more he'll act out to show you that he's not under your influence anymore. I suppose you could use this if you wanted full custody, just try to control when and how he sees the children and use each potential visit as a reason to reach out to him and try to control his behavior, judge him, criticize him, and explain where he's failing as a person. Do that for a month and he'd probably never want to see the kids again, and then you can claim custody! But assuming you're not pure evil I'd say DON'T do that and just let him do his thing.

As for 'setting boundaries', you've got to be very careful when it comes to this type of thing. Yes, it's not considerate for him to do this. It hurts the children. It could disrupt your schedule. But here's the thing...this will change so soon. Truly. Time will fix this problem. There is simply no way in 90 days this will be going on. Some things will have changed, and you will either have a nailed down visiting schedule that he is accountable for, or something will be different. Pick your battles, don't pick one you can't win that doesn't need to be fought.

Oh, I'm not saying there is nothing you can do to gently and respectfully steer things...but I don't think you can do that yet. Because the bold is what I hear in everything you say and do about this. "It's not fair." This sentence is all about being hurt and wanting revenge. How dare he hurt you? How can he get away with this? How dare he hurt my kids? How dare he be able to go live this sleazy double life, find some OW, and have me do day care for him so he can go screw around, etc, etc, etc. You're hurt and it's obviously not fair, so let's just use the power you have over the children to jerk the leash and show him he can't do this to you and the kids and get away with it...spew text messages and knee jerk controlling behavior, zap, there, take that you A-hole H! Ick. Just looks gross to me.

Don't score keep. Don't act on emotions that generate from anger, pain, neediness, or fear. Just work on being the best woman you can be, and operate consistently from a place of peace, balance, and alignment with your core beliefs. When you are in your calm, peaceful, meditative stance...when the timing is right, and things are starting to shift, and there are several options available he's offering up on how to schedule, go ahead and pick the one you think is best. Do it without explaining why, without criticizing his choices or past behavior, without making him know your displeasure...just opt for column B and move on quietly. A little grace right now is what's needed. This will pass. The kids will live. His problems are his to deal with. And the funny thing is, the more you butt out, the more he'll have to own them, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least for him to step up and be an outstanding dad...at which point you'll feel it isn't fair that he never did that when you were together.

OK, no edit button, I probably got carried away a bit. My advice...post what he's doing and get DB advice from vets or those that have evolved well beyond this emotional state and can steer you from a good place and not an emotionally reactive one. Take care IP!

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain
Just checking up on you. You were saying you weren't doing well yesterday.
I Hope things changed and you are feeling better.

It's not easy I know. You are not alone and in reading more of the other situations you will gain strength in understanding your H.

Your kids need you strong. We are all here for you so come here and talk about your feelings, don't hold them in.

I was working on a magic wand to make all the MLC wake up ... But decided to scrap that idea. I think we need the wand for us. To grow and be better with ourselves. Trust life and God. Even if you are not religious. You will find peace in all this and walk with your head high.

Hugs to you
Irish

[inpain]

Hi Irish

Not doing well at all. Yesterday was awful and today was even worse. Today I discovered H has bought a motorbike without my knowledge! Round about the time he redirected his mail (which I also only discovered this week) so I guess I know why he redirected it now.

Yesterday I ended up venting at him about letting the kids down again on Saturday night. Why did he let them down? He was having tea at his sisters. She has wanted nothing to do with us for about 9 years...hmmm. I just let everything out at him. How he is only thinking of himself, the kids are upset every night, the only person happy with any of this is him, etc, etc, etc. Then to top it off he had taken the day off work. Why???? To go to a mate's house for Sunday lunch (so he says). NOT to see his kids who he hadn't seen for four days by this point! What was he supposed to say when he was invited?he asked with a furrowed brow. How about, sorry mate, thanks for the offer but as I haven't seen my kids for four days and I have the day off I'm going to take them out somewhere and spend some quality time with them. About half an hour of silence later and he text his friend and told him he couldn't make it. He then spent the entire day here just sitting doing nothing until he plugged in headphones to S11's laptop and watched videos. I did feel bad and wrote a short note saying sorry, that isn't who I am or want to be I am just really struggling with the pain of this situation. He put the note in his pocket after he read it.

So........with that rant that blew DBing out of the water and today's discovery I think I feel like throwing the towel in and filing for D myself. I cannot believe what the man I married has turned into. Can't sleep, feel physically sick and crying my eyes out.

Thanks for always checking in on me, it means a great deal to me.

[Zues126]

So........with that rant that blew DBing out of the water and today's discovery I think I feel like throwing the towel in and filing for D myself. I cannot believe what the man I married has turned into. Can't sleep, feel physically sick and crying my eyes out.

I feel like a broken record lately but here goes again...are you blowing off steam, or is filing divorce something you might do? What, to you, are acceptable reasons for divorce?

For me it's serial adultery and/or physical abuse. Not bikes and power struggles over schedules. I guess I'm just curious. Many people tell me they don't believe divorce is always a bad choice, that's their call, I just want to know who's threads I should be following and contributing to.

[inpain]

Yeah I'm just blowing off steam. Not in a good place right now and blowing off steam seems to be the only thing I have that works right now. Just feel like I can't do any of this being strong stuff and all the rest of it, that's all. It's not that I don't appreciate yours and everyone else's advice, it's just hard and I'm struggling.

[Zues126]

Then I'm in the right place. NO ONE can blow off steam like zuesy If you're looking for agreement that this is the worst thing in the universe then you've got it from me!

Seriously, I know how bad it stinks, and it's worse when you feel like you boil over and slip up.

Have you read AU Bob's last thread?

[inpain]

Thanks Zues! No, I haven't read Au Bob's threads, I'll check them out. And yes, this is absolutely the worst thing in the universe, I agree!

[Rain75]

Inpain. I feel your pain on them not seeing the kids but finding time to do what they want. And also on feeling like if you've blown it. It sux. Sux so bad. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time of it. I hear it gets better (easier) in time.

(((inpain)))

Rain

[Irish M]

Hey Inpain

Don't believe for a minute you blew it. Remember all the emotions you are going through is for you not him. It's for you to get through this. The ups and downs...the anger towards him... The missing him... Feeling sorry for him...then the anger again ... Eventually these emotions get less and less and you see things differently.

I too said things to my wife I later regretted. Thinking I made it worse. At this point anything you say or do won't phase him . They hear what they want.

It's good he stuck around but the way he did it was like a sulky teen. He told his friend he couldnt go out then he buried himself in front of his laptop.

Glad you shared your feelings.
Hugs to you xox

Irish

[inpain]

Inpain. I feel your pain on them not seeing the kids but finding time to do what they want. And also on feeling like if you've blown it. It sux. Sux so bad. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time of it. I hear it gets better (easier) in time.

(((inpain)))

Rain

Hi Rain, thanks for the hugs. Let's hope it does get better/easier in time - don't feel I can carry on with this amount of stress and pain for much longer. Feels like I'm being buried alive or something.

[inpain]

Don't believe for a minute you blew it.

Hi Irish, thank you. I suppose it depends what I'm fighting for on whether or not I blew it. The only outcome I truthfully want is to reconcile with H. Yes, I know we're all supposed to be changing ourselves into better people here and I am and will either way. But I don't want to end up with just 'I'm a better person', I want to end up with 'I'm a better person and H loves me again'.

Remember all the emotions you are going through is for you not him. It's for you to get through this. The ups and downs...the anger towards him... The missing him... Feeling sorry for him...then the anger again ... Eventually these emotions get less and less and you see things differently.

Seeing things differently scares me too right now. Differently how? I don't want any of this to happen and I don't want to feel differently towards my H. Would sure love for him to feel differently towards me though

I too said things to my wife I later regretted. Thinking I made it worse. At this point anything you say or do won't phase him . They hear what they want.

Well that's good news then, because I think I pretty much said everything I've been thinking and feeling for weeks to him on Sunday!

It's good he stuck around but the way he did it was like a sulky teen. He told his friend he couldnt go out then he buried himself in front of his laptop.

Yes, he didn't even interact with D7 at all except when she had some lunch. She wasn't remotely interested in him being here and neither was S11. S11 comments every time H goes, "Well, that was a waste of time, Daddy doesn't do anything with us when he comes round, just sits there, what's the point?" Smart kid!

Thanks for the hugs!

[inpain]

So just now H has text to say he was thinking of taking the kids out for tea tomorrow night. I text back, OK, they'll love that. He then instantly texts back asking if I want to go too! What!?!?!? Yet another mind bend!

What should I do? Say yes or no? Help!

[Rouky]

I think I have seen another situation like yours here. The lady went but later regretted it as she felt she had had expectation to R but nothing happened. I'd personally thank him but turned down his invitation as I'd not want to have too much hope and being shattered again. Use this time to do something for yourself.

It is just my opinion of course.

[inpain]

I know what you're saying Rouky! I've already been on other meals out thinking that at least it would be a chance to show the new and improved me. And, of course, there is always that little spark of hope that it ignites when he asks me to come along. It could just be his conscience. It could be that he wants to see how we get on, or it could be none of those. Just don't know what to do for the best. Want to be strong enough to say no but then want the hope of it being a baby step

[Rouky]

When do you have to give an answer. Could you sleep over it and see how you feel tomorrow morning?

[inpain]

Yes, I suppose I could sleep on it, it is quite late here so for all he knows I could have fallen asleep and not seen the text asking me if I want to go too. I will see him in the morning anyway, he is coming to take D to school. Really not looking forward to that after everything that has happened the last few days - it always puts me on edge for work when he comes in the mornings. It's like he just sits there watching us all dashing about, getting ready

[Irish M]

I suppose it depends what I'm fighting for on whether or not I blew it. The only outcome I truthfully want is to reconcile with H. Yes, I know we're all supposed to be changing ourselves into better people here and I am and will either way. But I don't want to end up with just 'I'm a better person', I want to end up with 'I'm a better person and H loves me again'.

Hi Inpain

I agree 100% that should be your goal if that's what you want. I too want that for myself and for every LBS here. I might of explained it wrong but what i meant was to better yourself and not have expectations. Avoid the hurt. You don't need to be let down and in this up and down world of MLC its hard to avoid that. You need to detach from the emotions get strong... because the day H wakes up , if it happens and i pray it does...there is a harder process to go through. So the more you educate yourself, understand that H is not himself, plus you cant control his journey and you should distance yourself from it. You will accept what happened and you will have better tools to deal with it. Your way.

Seeing things differently scares me too right now. Differently how? I don't want any of this to happen and I don't want to feel differently towards my H. Would sure love for him to feel differently towards me though

Differently as seeing it as not your fault and you or your H have no control over it.
Seeing it as MLC. Crazy train, in the tunnel of Fog. I know we can't imagine the person we married doing half of the things they do and don't do. This is not the man you married. You can love the old husband, he is in there somewhere. Just he can't get out. He has to want it, deal with it and change it all by himself.

Yes, he didn't even interact with D7 at all except when she had some lunch. She wasn't remotely interested in him being here and neither was S11. S11 comments every time H goes, "Well, that was a waste of time, Daddy doesn't do anything with us when he comes round, just sits there, what's the point?" Smart kid!

The kids are so smart.Mine knew my W was off weeks before i saw it. I told my W the last time she treated them like "crap" (polite version), and she wondered why they didn't want to see her. I told W, "because we raised them well and they stay away from people like you." .

Sad thing is the kids build a resentment and anger. Its their way of protecting their emotions. Love them even more. Reassure them. Educate them.

i think you are doing great and the emotional roller coaster i see you on is not going to stop any time soon. I hope it does. You can get off it and let H ride it alone.

Hope you are getting at least a few good hours of sleep each night. Hope you are eating well. I know i lost 20-lbs in the first 2 months. I have since regained it less the 5-lbs I wanted to lose before MLC. I'm at a great weight now lol

Irish

[Ancaire]

Hello, my dear! Just checking in on you...

I am so very sorry you are hurting so much. It took me months to get to where I was on level ground. This is awful, and there is so much I didn't understand about it. I think what finally helped me was the realization that H was well and truly gone for now. He's been taken over by MLC...and he needs to work through it. I've heard the craziest things come out of H's mouth, but some of them stick with me:

"I just want to be happy."
"I want to date other people and see what else is out there."
"What? Am I just supposed to watch you die?"
"Being married to you has completely ruined my life."

These comments hurt like nothing else, but they also tell me a lot about what H's state of mind is. He's seeking "happiness"...he's absolutely sure he's going to find it elsewhere, even though for years he was very happy being a father and husband. He has no idea what he wants. He's terrified of death, and the fact that I'm chronically ill is more than he can handle in his current state.

He honestly believes that his life will be great once he gets rid of me. He drinks so much now, it might seem that way for a while - but he is going to have the loneliness hit him really hard one day - and I feel so very badly for him. I wouldn't wish his confusion on anyone.

He'll list things I've done, and I'll correct the memory - he'll acknowledge I'm right, and then go right back to accusing me again. It's a symptom of his crisis. None of it can be his fault - it's all got to be mine. Add in the fact he started acting like I was his mother (I was keeping him from doing "fun" things) - it just exploded in his mind, and he bolted.

I don't know when or if he'll ever find his way home. I just know I feel so very badly for him. He blew up his family. He destroyed me. I worry that he'll just refuse to face the damage, because it is so huge.

I'm telling you all this, because I'm betting you'll see a lot of similarities in our stories. H is gone. He won't be back for a really long time. Please don't allow yourself to fall into despair. You have an entire life to live, learning of your own to do. If your H ever returns, he's going to need so much help. Will you be strong enough to help him?

I'm not suggesting you move along. This is HARD. I just hope you'll start seeing things a bit differently. I really worry about you, and hope to help you through this. The first thing you're going to have to do to get to a state of acceptance is to really understand what is happening.

MLC doesn't end quickly. It lasts for a while. What are you going to do in the meantime to be able to help your H? That is how I finally started progressing. My H has been awful and downright abusive. I love the old H with all my heart. I meant my vows - and I consider this the "for worse" I promised to remain through.

If he suddenly changed his mind tomorrow, would you really be okay? You've got forgiveness to work on, compassion, understanding...these things take a while. It might help you if you start thinking about how you need to grow in order to be able to help your H one day. It really did help me.

Hang in there, IP! I'm in your corner, wishing only good things for you.

[Zues126]

Yeah IP, what Anc said. I am still posting because I want you to know I'm in your corner, but I'm not sure I'll have much to add until 30-60-90 days pass and you realize the need to truly detach.

Within your desire to save your marriage are two parts. One is noble, good, healthy, God-given, and righteous. The other is scared, needy, desperate, overwhelmed, and panicked.

I agree we should all stand by our M's for all of those noble reasons.

What we shouldn't do is allow our fears and neediness to control our thoughts and behavior and destroy our ability to appreciate and enjoy the life we've been given by God.

Too many people avoid growth by justifying their dependency because it fits their beliefs. I love the beliefs, but you need to lose the dependency.

I get it's overwhelming and maybe it takes you time. Just not much more to say until you get there. And you will. When the pain continues and continues eventually you will learn that letting go stops the bleeding, not just for you, but for your WAH, and that it is the best gift you can give to each of you right now. There is nothing noble about smothering a dove to death. I promise you'll get there. Until then I wish you the strength to get through until you find that relief.

[ciluzen]

Hey, IP! Just checking in on you. I know you were having a tough go of it...I hope you know there are a lot of us pulling for you out here. This seems so impossible and overwhelming, but it will get better.

[Rouky]

Hi IP, how are you? Just thinking of you, and I want you to know that we'll all get through this.

Keep faith :-)

[NYGal]

Hello IP, I'm glad I found your thread. I'm having a hard time with my situation, too. I keep getting advice about being strong, and sometimes I can take it in. Sometimes I can't and the criticism on these posts can sting a little bit.

Like you, my goal is reconciliation. I understand intuitively that it will only happen if I get stronger, and if I grow and learn. But the pain is so great I can hardly stand it most of the time. I think we have to come to a new realization that WE are worth it. Let's get through this together. We'll learn how to detach, I suppose. We'll get better at taking care of ourselves, I guess. You see my doubt? Maybe we can help each other through.

Rouky is wise. She says we'll all get through this. Let's.

[Zues126]

Just posted on Trumpet's thread, check it out if you can. Thinking of you. Hang in.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

just checking in on you.

thinking about you :-)

Irish

[inpain]

Hi Rouky, Irish, Ancaire, Ciluzen, Zues and NYGal

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart for checking in on me and offering such wonderful words of wisdom and advice the last couple of days. I don't even know where to start with what is going on. I am so confused and upset with things that keep happening and also my own thoughts and feelings. I have been struggling so much the last couple of days, hence my absence. I just haven't really been able to face putting it all into words I suppose. I think this post will end up very long and rambling - apologies in advance. I sincerely hope that could have your thoughts on it all. I just cannot make sense of what goes on anymore. Anyway, here is what has been going on.

Monday night I discovered that H has opened a FB page and listed himself as 'single'. Also discover he's bought a motorbike! We don't see him because of his shift times.

Tuesday morning he comes round at 7am so that he can see S and be here to take D to school. This is one thing that is really getting to me - having to see him literally 10 minutes after I've woken up - and he's there, in my face, the whole time I'm getting myself and the kids ready for work/school. Ugh, it is just awful. We don't see him on the night time because of his shifts but I get the text asking about taking the kids out for tea on Wednesday. I didn't actually get the text until 3 hours after he sent it (poor signals in our area) so he sent another text saying "Guess you don't like the idea". I replied telling him that both texts came through together just now and that yes, the kids will like going out for tea. He text back asking if I wanted to come too.

Wednesday morning he comes at 7am again. Ugh. First thing he does is ask if I want to go for tea later as I didn't reply to his text. I told him I wasn't sure because I don't understand why he wants me to tag along. He says it's because the kids will want me to. I told him he will have to start doing things on his own with them and that when he asks me to join them I always think it means there is some hope. He pulled an "Oh, didn't realise that!" kind of expression. I told him, no, I don't think I want to come. He picked D up from school so was there when I got home from work. S instantly tells me Dad's taking them out for tea and please, please, please will I come. I say I'm not sure and then D bursts into tears and says she doesn't want to go without me. I give in and we all go. Yet again, you wouldn't know there was anything wrong while we are out. H is attentive, laughs and jokes, starts every conversation (because I still try to be 'dark' by not initiating any). He stayed until kids were in bed then left, all concerned on his way out, 'Make sure you lock this doorl'

Thursday he's here again at 7am. I have a very late meeting that day so he asks what I was planning on making the kids for tea. Gave him two options I was thinking of and he asked me which I'd prefer. I say I'm not bothered and leave for work. When I got home he has a roast dinner all ready and waiting. Again, you wouldn't know anything is wrong. He is attentive, initiates every conversation, laughs and jokes. Again, he stays until kids are in bed then leaves. I busied myself with sorting laundry when he went to leave but, as I was facing a window, I could see him standing in the doorway and he was acting very hesitant, as though he was either waiting for me to turn round or he was thinking of something to say. He just said see you tomorrow and left after a few minutes. I discover that he has changed the status on his FB page from 'single' to 'it's complicated'. Complicated with me or complicated with someone else?!?!?!

Today he comes at 7am again. D had a medical appointment so he met us there. Ugh, it feels like I cannot get away from him for a minute! How am I supposed to detach when it is like this!?!?! The appointment was immediately before lunch so all came home. I needed to grab some lunch to take back to work and D had lunch at home. He again acted all concerned, trying to help me fix my lunch and get me to stay for lunch and then go back to work. I didn't though. He picked D up from school again so was here when I got home from work. D had been promised a treat of her choice for being brave at her appointment. She chose home made lasagne, popcorn and a film. I busied myself with the lasagne and stayed out of H's way. At one point he came to tell me something of little importance and when I only replied with a muttered "OK" he said, "Have I done something to upset you?" He seemed very offended! Hello!?!?!?! Seriously!! You've done plenty to upset me!!! H complimented me on the lasagne (have to admit, it was the best one I've made!) and we all watched a film. The kids came and snuggled with me to watch it. I could see H looking over all the time out of the corner of my eye. He left early because he has to be up in the morning.

I feel hopeful and relaxed when he is here on an evening. Hate him being here in a morning. Am in floods of tears as soon as he's gone out of the door, and feel so betrayed and upset by his FB status and him buying a motorbike when he keeps telling me he wants finances paid off before he goes to a solicitor to D me! D also told him my boots are worn and leak in water and he told me to go buy a pair of boots! I feel like I hate him but then I'm distraught when he's left for the evening. This week I have even questioned why I want him back. Everyone tells me I'm mad and should be thinking good riddance. This man has left me for 4 months 9 years ago because I was ill, had at least an EA, continued the EA behind my back for several more years - even meeting up with her on one admitted occasion and buying/receiving birthday and Christmas gifts! Had no regard for my feelings or thoughts when it has come to work decisions that have taken him away from his family, been overbearing with our S to the point of us arguing a lot about it and now left me again, touting himself as single on FB and bought a motorbike behind my back! Everyone tells me I deserve better. I don't want a D, I don't want my children living that kind of life, being swapped from pillar to post between us, yet I have no option. I do not know what to do. Please help with advice or thoughts etc. I really am truly grateful for all of you.

[Zues126]

I feel hopeful and relaxed when he is here on an evening. Hate him being here in a morning. Am in floods of tears as soon as he's gone out of the door, and feel so betrayed and upset by his FB status and him buying a motorbike when he keeps telling me he wants finances paid off before he goes to a solicitor to D me! D also told him my boots are worn and leak in water and he told me to go buy a pair of boots! I feel like I hate him but then I'm distraught when he's left for the evening. This week I have even questioned why I want him back. Everyone tells me I'm mad and should be thinking good riddance. This man has left me for 4 months 9 years ago because I was ill, had at least an EA, continued the EA behind my back for several more years - even meeting up with her on one admitted occasion and buying/receiving birthday and Christmas gifts! Had no regard for my feelings or thoughts when it has come to work decisions that have taken him away from his family, been overbearing with our S to the point of us arguing a lot about it and now left me again, touting himself as single on FB and bought a motorbike behind my back! Everyone tells me I deserve better.

I don't care one iota how you feel.

OK, I do. I don't like to see you suffer. I do care how you feel. And I want you to learn to detach, set boundaries, and find ways to lessen the pain. But when it comes to choosing your course forward, feelings have nothing to do with it. Whether you're angry, hurt, lonely, sad, whatever, I will say it one more time- emotions are not a compass you should use to steer with.

If your friends are telling you to leave him, you either are choosing the wrong friends to confide in, or you're dumping on them and they don't know how to handle it so they're telling you to 'get out' so they don't have to hear it anymore.

It's funny...I didn't really have any friends that could provide the emotional support I needed. My best friend...BEST FRIEND...he's amazing, kind, we're so close it's almost a marriage...but it was almost like he refused to talk about it. Once in a while I was so distraught I brought up my sitch and apologized for doing it because I knew he didn't want to hear, and sure enough he'd listen, not really say much, then move on. I really think it's because people don't know what to say. That is why I want you to post here on DB. We get it IP.

What *ISN'T* going to work is this just getting better on it's own with you doing what you're doing. Look- by failing to DETACH, you remain NEEDY. When you are needy you have EXPECTATIONS. When he doesn't meet your expectations you get HURT. This leads you to feeling RESENTFUL. This leads you to behave in all kinds of inconsistent ways. You are clinging and desperate because of your neediness. Then you might be nasty or punishing because you are angry. And in the middle there is a ton of control. It's hard to be your best person in the middle of that, but even if he wanted to try to R you'd still be in a spot where you'd either take him back without protecting yourself, or wouldn't be able to do your part to make it work.

I do think these are good opportunities. It seems like your H is doing things for you, kind of 'acts of service'. Is this his love language? I don't want you to be pursuing, but he is probably doing all of this for one of two reasons (or both)- either he wants you to reciprocate and he's trying to show you what he wants, or he's trying to show his feelings for you. I think it's ok to be a little appreciative of him. If he makes you dinner can you give him a SINCERE compliment, like 'you are so thoughtful H, thank you'? No, he shouldn't get to cake eat, and long term if he gets D you won't keep doing this. But your NOT D yet, and without being pursuing or having expectations I think it's ok to show him appreciation when he's doing things for you, because that would make him feel good and that might be what he wants. See what works. As for his love language, and acts of service, I'd keep it dim with *H*, but I WOULD then (if that's his LL) do acts of service for daughter. Maybe even with him. Show him how lavishly you enjoy serving those you love, but instead of directing it at him, do it for D, in front of him or with him. Make him want to be the one you love and serve.

So let me know what his love languages are, and work on detaching and 180s. You detach by GAL, finding new ways to meet your emotional needs so you reduce your focus on H. I work this in last, but I will say once again that it is paramount. Then 180s. These are for you. I don't remember what your 180s are, which means that you're not doing enough with them, because if you're not mentioning them in every post you're focusing on H too much and not enough on you. What have you done to GAL and 180 this week? Why am I not hearing about that? Eyes back to you please!

[Zues126]

As for his love language, and acts of service, I'd keep it dim with *H*, but I WOULD then (if that's his LL) do acts of service for daughter. Maybe even with him. Show him how lavishly you enjoy serving those you love, but instead of directing it at him, do it for D, in front of him or with him. Make him want to be the one you love and serve.

I want to clarify...this is NOT to be done controlling/manipulative. This is only if AOS is his LL, and then it should be a 180...something you make a permanent change, for YOU to be a better person, and to let those you love feel the love you have for them. NOT a gimmick to try to win him back.

[Zues126]

I've already been on other meals out thinking that at least it would be a chance to show the new and improved me.

I've just reread this entire thread. I haven't seen anything that shows you are working on a new and improved you. 180s. Goals. GAL activities. Breakthroughs from IC. Where is it all? All I see is narration of H's activities and why that makes you sad or angry.

What do you want from us?

[isittoolate]

Inpain - sorry to hijack

Zeus I would be grateful for your advice on my thread.

[ciluzen]

[quote]
So let me know what his love languages are, and work on detaching and 180s. You detach by GAL, finding new ways to meet your emotional needs so you reduce your focus on H. I work this in last, but I will say once again that it is paramount. Then 180s. These are for you. I don't remember what your 180s are, which means that you're not doing enough with them, because if you're not mentioning them in every post you're focusing on H too much and not enough on you. What have you done to GAL and 180 this week? Why am I not hearing about that? Eyes back to you please!

This, right here, is pure gold. The entire post was great, but this cuts right to the heart of it. IP, I hope you read and re-read this and get as much out of it as I do.

I'm reading this as I've let myself fall back a bit into the H centered spiral this week (not enough time outside of work with others and GAL; too many little meh interactions with H after a very positive one). Nothing bad, just thinking too much and overthinking. But, unfortunately, I'm an artist and I paint alone which leads to living too much in my head. I just go back to the boards for a reminder and a reboot.

IP, what Zues said about focusing on H too much is true. It will make you mentally, emotionally and physically sick. You need to focus on you. My "real" job has me working with teens and young adults who have varying degrees of disabilities...and some severe behavioral issues. If we focus on their disabilities instead of what they CAN do, we tend to allow our emotional side take over and do too much for them, which makes them feel incapable and even worthless.
If THEY focus too much on their disabilities, they end up having a pity party and using it as an excuse to not progress, perform, or to feel justified in acting out with bad behaviors.
So, we keep their disabilities in the back of our mind, but create challenging tasks and work with them in a support role to meet them. We put the focus on THEM...the inner kiddo. Not the disability.

EVERYONE has their strengths. EVERYONE is capable of making themselves happy. I'm learning that we all can find ourselves in a negative rut. We are too comfortable in our habits or situation to change, even though it is ruining our life. The fear of not knowing if the steps needed to change will "work" or not holds us back. The fear of change itself holds us back. To change we HAVE to make ourselves very uncomfortable. That's called challenge. When we meet the challenge it gets more comfortable. Then challenge yourself again. As each challenge is met and overcome, you become different and hopefully better.
Your challenges are your 180s and GAL. Do the hard work.

But you need to focus on you. YOUR circus. YOUR monkeys.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

Just want to say I understand how you are feeling.

Your world has been rocked. You are at the beggining of all this in its early stages. Still a newbie even if it's the 2nd time around. Hard to disconnect and get your strength up. It took me a while in the beggining I was in total shock. You will have ups and downs and it may get worse before it gets better.

Some of the advise you are getting here may be a little too direct and rough. They are here to help you. I suggest you reread all your post and then take notes on the advise that you have received. Read the success stories. Make sure if you write something down on paper lock it up. Your H is in your home sometimes, you don't want him to find it. Also your computer or tablet lock it down.

You are still trying to understand your H. There is nothing to understand.

Hope your kids are doing well. You are their rock.

Your sitch is like mine. 2nd time around and we are still standing for our families.
Your kids come first and you want them to have the family unit. I admire that.

Keep pushing on. You are getting stronger if you believe it or not. I see it
Hugs

Irish

[inpain]

So let me know what his love languages are, and work on detaching and 180s. You detach by GAL, finding new ways to meet your emotional needs so you reduce your focus on H. I work this in last, but I will say once again that it is paramount. Then 180s. These are for you. I don't remember what your 180s are, which means that you're not doing enough with them, because if you're not mentioning them in every post you're focusing on H too much and not enough on you. What have you done to GAL and 180 this week? Why am I not hearing about that? Eyes back to you please!

Hi Zues, and thank you so much for this brilliant post! You are right on my inconsistencies due to emotions at the time and I can see how this is counter-productive. I am, as I said, finding it very difficult to detach because he is here so often. He doesn't seem to want to detach even though he is the one who left. If I don't talk to him he finds every reason he can to make conversation with me. I find it confusing.

Does his LL being AOS mean he likes doing things for me or that he would like me to do things for him? If it means that his LL is that he likes doing things for me/others, then yes! that is absolutely his LL. He has always expressed his love by doing things for me, taking care of me or buying me things. I think I am already like this with my S and D so he does see this when he comes round and has always seen this.

180s...yeah, you're right. I don't even know what to do for 180s save one thing. H didn't like that I intercepted between him and S because he is overbearing with him. I have been staying out of any situations between them. So I guess that's a 180, but I think it's probably the only one I'm doing. I can't think of any to do. I'd appreciate help and guidance with it.

GAL...well, I originally thought this meant I had to actually be going out somewhere but after reading on lots of threads it doesn't seem to be the case. This week I'd say my GAL things have been: finally making some things in my craft room (haven't done this since he left), bought S & D a new book and we have been snuggling down to read a chapter a night before bed, gave myself a pedicure, went to do something with my Dad this afternoon that we always used to do (don't want to say what it is as it's too identifying), have played board games with kids and parents today, had parents stay for tea and watched a film together.

These things make me feel better while I'm doing them but then I'm back to the same feeling when they stop. So I suppose I'm kind of detached when I'm doing them but then as soon as H comes round I don't feel detached in any way. I don't know what to do about that.

[inpain]

Oh, also in answer to your other posts, I'm not sure about goals either, as to what they should be, and I cannot afford to see an IC.

[NYGal]

inpain, I know what you mean. When we do the GAL things it's good, but then the old feelings return. I lost it a bit ago, called two friends for reassurances, and now I'm off to another GAL activity. Such a different life. I used to think, if only there was more time in the day to get everything done. I was so happy being busy and productive. Now I just keep trying to find things to fill the time. But it's good, I guess, because I'm focused on being more content and a better person. I hope you have time to focus on you, too.

[inpain]

Keep pushing on. You are getting stronger if you believe it or not. I see it
Hugs

Irish

Thanks so much Irish, I wish I could see that too.

[inpain]

EVERYONE has their strengths. EVERYONE is capable of making themselves happy.

Your challenges are your 180s and GAL. Do the hard work.

But you need to focus on you. YOUR circus. YOUR monkeys.

Hi Ciluzen and thank you. I work in a similar field so I totally understand what you're saying there.

I do struggle to make myself happy I think. I really don't like being on my own, prefer to have some company.

I'm struggling with 180s but not so much GAL. I have done quite a few things to GAL but they only make me feel better while I'm doing them.

[inpain]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about what to do and where to go next with my situation over the last few days and just seem to end up more confused as to what my goals and 180s should be.

Basic current situation in a nutshell is this:

* H moved out 11 weeks ago. He is living on the same street, so only a short walk from our home.

* He chooses as and when to come round and how long to stay. He has let the children down a lot, telling them he will be coming and then not showing up - doesn't even call or text to say he's no longer coming.

* When he comes round it is like nothing has changed - he treats me the same and starts all the conversations as I am only speaking when spoken to in an effort to be 'dark'. He has cooked meals and had meals I've cooked. (I wonder if this should stop?)

* Finances are still running the same as before he moved out - joint accounts etc. This is worrying me!

* He has started a Facebook page that he doesn't know I know about. He originally had his relationship status as 'single', now it has changed to 'it's complicated'.

* I have discovered he has bought a motorbike since he left. Again, he doesn't know that I know this. I have no idea how much this has cost out of our joint finances!

* He has also taken out a credit card - he doesn't know that I know this either.

So, my thoughts and queries are this:

1. Should I make myself scarce when he is in our home? Bearing in mind this would be a lot! For example, this week I would have had to make myself scarce 3 full evenings! OR Should I be setting some boundaries as to how often and how long he can come round for?

2. Should I let him know that I know he's bought a motorbike and ask how much he has spent. After all, I'm assuming this will be an asset that has to be taken into account that he is hiding behind my back! If so - how!?!?

3. Should I ask that we now meet to discuss splitting our finances/access to the kids in view of the above secret purchase and taking out credit cards? Who knows what else he is doing financially behind my back!

4. What DBing techniques should I be using now? It is hard to go dark when he is here all the time and seems to expect that I just welcome him in with open arms and treat him as though there is nothing wrong! I don't initiate conversations or texts, but that is as much as I'm really doing. Oh, and I'm making sure I look great all the time.

My Dad thinks I should now be giving an ultimatum, though obviously he hasn't read DR. He thinks I should say something along the lines of:

"Either we discuss finances/access to children etc now and you start the ball rolling with formal separation/divorce, or, you come back for 6 months to work on M with counselling and if, after those 6 months nothing has changed, that will be it."

My Mum thinks I'm crazy to want him back after everything he has done and also because of how he is with our S.

And I'm just totally confused!

[Rouky]

If he doesn't leave far from you, can he not come and collect kids and bring them back or you drop them back and pick them up?

If not possible, could you stay in your bedroom and read a good book?

If you tell him you know about FB, the motorbike, that wouldn't be detaching. Personally I'd say nothing.

For the finances as it's a joint account you must be able to have access to the bank statement and see what has been done with it. At the moment, I'll say don't rock the boat.

I know it's hard and it's daily new. Nearly a year for me but I'm glad I didn't push financially as I'm better off at the moment and he isn't challenging. Going dark is doing me a world of good, and I don't think about STBXH as much as 2 weeks ago!

Sending you loads of hugs ((((((((((IP))))))))))

[Zues126]

Lot to reply to so this is going to be rough, not going to be doing much proof reading.

Good job on GAL. Doesn't matter that it doesn't make everything permanently better and is only temporary relief. There is no magic pill that's going to make the loss of your family ok. That would be absurd. Consider this like physical therapy to recover after an accident. What it really does is provide outlets for oyu to find some joy and emotional support in your life. You are rebuilding a new infrastructure in which you get what you need. As you get what you need the pain decreases and you won't need H. You will want your family, but you won't depend on him and can detach.

180s- why did H say he couldn't live with you? What was your role in the breakdown of the M? While WAS's spew a lot and we have to sift out a lot of their narrative, there is also a lot of truths to be found. Ultimately your changes do have to be for you, but the motivation to save your marriage can be a powerful catalyst so it's crucial that you think about this. Again, I could go back several posts to find this, but I shouldn't have to. Why did H leave?

Your questions-

1. No. This is good. He wants to see you. He is having positive interactions. I agree that it's ok to be a little scarce sometimes, to leave him wanting more. I like the 80% rule. Reciprocate about 80% of the good will he is showing you.
2. No. IP, please don't mention the motor bike again. STFU about this. Suppose you had a friend that was tweaked because her husband bought a $40 watch. Wouldn't that be odd? Well, to me, your family is on the brink and your H is hurting like he's never hurt before. Busting his balls about money is not going to bring you closer to your goal. He's an adult. Yes, they are joint finances. I'll address this below.
3. No. Don't make it worse. Do you want a divorce? Why would taking steps towards divorce help? Separating finances, keeping him out of your house and having visiting hours...if you want a divorce then do it, but if you want a marriage why don't you just chill?

Your mom and dad are both horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. They love you and don't want to see you hurt. AND they are only seeing through your lens, which right now is $hit-tinted.

IP, most posters would kill to have what you have. An H that is spending a ton of time with you, showing love through acts of service, not flaunting affairs and drinking to oblivion, not bringing other women around the kids.

Many men leave for a day or a month when things boil over. I look at it like counting to 10 when you are too angry to continue the conversation. He was in so much pain he had to walk. You can either try to understand why and own and change your part of it, or you can absolutely crucify him.

I have read many posts you come across as more angry and controlling that most posters and you have more reason to be appreciative. This does not mean your feelings aren't valid, but it should be a wake up call to you.

My gut tells me that you really need your H. You don't just love him, you NEED him. And you need him the way you need him. I would bet that because of that you were extremely controlling in the relationship. Schedules, finances, ultimatums, all controlling. You seem to get angry when he doesn't do what you think he ought to, and you are very critical of him. Men are simple...appreciation/admiration = love, criticism/rejection = poison. By showing criticism/rejection in an effort to control him and get what you need, you fed your dog (men are like dogs) poisoned dog food. Now he's sick from it, and he's throwing up in the back yard, and you're yelling at him for making a mess.

Stop poisoning your dog. Let him heal. Then, if he loves you enough to come around again after this crap, treat him right. The only way you can do this is if you lose the control/anger thing, so your 180s/goals should be to figure out where this is coming from and get it handled. Otherwise if he comes back I'm afraid he will leave for good in about 18 months.

Oh, and I'll say it again. You can blow things out of proportion to justify controlling behavior (i.e., well, if he spends all of our money, puts us in bankruptcy, if he is dating someone else and still expects to come around, I can't live like this forever, etc) but these are all extremes, and those are distorted thinking. You won't live like this forever. Zues promises this won't continue long. Either he'll move farther away or he'll move closer. And either way I'm more worried about what he'll see if he moves closer. So let me ask- other than vows and what YOU need, why should he come home? What does he have to look forward to if he comes home? Is this where you say 'now I've got you you son of a b1tch, now that you want this M back we're going to tell you exactly how much you hurt me, punish you for being a bad boy, and we're going to set up some new rules for you to live by so I never get hurt again...'? Like trying to call a dog that knows it's in trouble and that you're going to beat it? Or are you emotionally prepared to reward him for being a good man, serving him in a way you failed to prior to his walking away, and being a person he'd be a fool to leave?

[annab74]

Zeus...this is great stuff!

Inpain...my situation is very similar to yours, and I too struggle with knowing the right balance. It's been almost 19 months since BD for me and we are one signature away from D being final, but H is "unsure." There has been a lot of back and forth on his part. One minute we're over, but when I go to take steps to move out and move on, he presses pause again and "needs more time." It's very frustrating.

No advice...just wanted say I feel your pain.

[inpain]

Hi Rouky, thank you so much for answering my questions.

If he doesn't leave far from you, can he not come and collect kids and bring them back or you drop them back and pick them up?

If not possible, could you stay in your bedroom and read a good book?

H has no intention of taking the kids round to his Dad's where he is living. It is not a pleasant environment by any means. I could stay upstairs when he comes round. I did this in the beginning so perhaps I will do this again now. Neither staying around or being absent has made any difference so both seem to be cheese less tunnels as far as DBing is concerned.

If you tell him you know about FB, the motorbike, that wouldn't be detaching. Personally I'd say nothing.

I'm not so much bothered about the FB - that is not a big deal, apart from the fact that he listed himself as single, that hurt, but I can let that go. As for the bike, the point with that is, it has cost £1000s! We do not have the money. The only way he has bought this is either a) borrowing from his Dad, b) paying for it with the credit card he has taken out or c) taken out a loan. I really don't feel that this is acceptable for someone who is wanting to divorce. He has told me to get the visa (which is joint spending) paid off so that he can divorce me but then he spends £1000s on a bike behind my back!?!?!

For the finances as it's a joint account you must be able to have access to the bank statement and see what has been done with it. At the moment, I'll say don't rock the boat.

I do have access to all the banking information. He is taking substantial amounts out every 10 days or so, probably to pay off whichever borrowing method he has used to buy the bike.

Going dark is doing me a world of good, and I don't think about STBXH as much as 2 weeks ago!

Sending you loads of hugs ((((((((((IP))))))))))

I wish I could go as dark as you have. It seems impossible with the way H is running the show at the moment. Thank you for the hugs, I really need them!

[inpain]

Thank you so much Annab74! I have read your situation and you're right, there are many similarities. I really admire you for being able to cope for so long!

[inpain]

Hi Zues, thank you again for your very helpful post. I really do appreciate how much your are helping me. I'm glad to hear you think I'm doing a good job of GAL!

180s- why did H say he couldn't live with you? What was your role in the breakdown of the M? Why did H leave?

H left because a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing to prove that his R with OW wasn't physical and I have had a hard time dealing with it. H has done very little to set right the lack of trust and pain that has come from his EA/PA and constant lies about contact with her over spanning many years, c) He doesn't love me like a wife any more.

1. No. This is good. He wants to see you. He is having positive interactions. I agree that it's ok to be a little scarce sometimes, to leave him wanting more. I like the 80% rule. Reciprocate about 80% of the good will he is showing you.

I really do not think he wants to see me - I am just an unfortunate added extra when he comes round to see the children. As soon as they have been put to bed, in fact, most times as soon as I say they have to get ready for bed, he leaves. He is coming to see them only and I just happen to be here. I do like the 80% idea anyway though, I'll give this a try.

2. No. IP, please don't mention the motor bike again. STFU about this. Suppose you had a friend that was tweaked because her husband bought a $40 watch. Wouldn't that be odd? Well, to me, your family is on the brink and your H is hurting like he's never hurt before. Busting his balls about money is not going to bring you closer to your goal. He's an adult. Yes, they are joint finances. I'll address this below.

Even though he has taken out £1000s of finance to buy it? £1000s of finance that we cannot afford!?!?! This seems odd that it is OK for him to do this even though he wants a divorce. This sort of spending should be done when we are divorced surely. He has repeatedly said that he wants me to hurry up and pay the visa off, that has joint spending on it, so that he can go to a solicitor and start proceedings but then he takes out more finance behind my back!?!?! I really don't see how this is OK.

Your mom and dad are both horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. They love you and don't want to see you hurt. AND they are only seeing through your lens, which right now is $hit-tinted.

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

I have read many posts you come across as more angry and controlling that most posters and you have more reason to be appreciative. This does not mean your feelings aren't valid, but it should be a wake up call to you.

I do not understand how I am coming across as angry - that is quite worrying!

My gut tells me that you really need your H. You don't just love him, you NEED him. And you need him the way you need him. I would bet that because of that you were extremely controlling in the relationship. Schedules, finances, ultimatums, all controlling. You seem to get angry when he doesn't do what you think he ought to, and you are very critical of him.

Yes and no here. I do need him and love him, you're spot on there. Schedules - no, not controlling there, there really isn't much to control, his shifts are terrible and the kids and I have always done most things on our own. Finances - yes, but by his doing! I have given up asking him to look at our finances with me. He knows I know what I'm doing with it and has always trusted me to pay the bills. He understands little about it and I used to work in finance so he has always just let me do it. Ultimatums - not really sure what you mean by this. If anything, I would say he has been the one giving ultimatums, in that he has constantly said to me since it came to light about his continued contact and poss PA with OW, "Get over it or leave, you know where the door is." Critical of him - yes, I hold my hand up here, and have held my hand up and apologised repeatedly for this to him. I am critical by nature and a perfectionist.

The only way you can do this is if you lose the control/anger thing, so your 180s/goals should be to figure out where this is coming from and get it handled. Otherwise if he comes back I'm afraid he will leave for good in about 18 months.

I think the anger comes from feeling that he has not been a good H to me for a long time. I had PND - he left and began an EA. He then has continued to lie and contact OW since he came back and then done nothing to try to mend the situation and my heartbreak/lack of trust. And then now he says ILYBNILWY!!! After everything he has put me through and hasn't bothered to put right he comes out with that!?!?! Yes, I'm angry about it.

Zues promises this won't continue long. Either he'll move farther away or he'll move closer. And either way I'm more worried about what he'll see if he moves closer. So let me ask- other than vows and what YOU need, why should he come home?

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

What does he have to look forward to if he comes home? Is this where you say 'now I've got you you son of a b1tch, now that you want this M back we're going to tell you exactly how much you hurt me, punish you for being a bad boy, and we're going to set up some new rules for you to live by so I never get hurt again...'? Like trying to call a dog that knows it's in trouble and that you're going to beat it?

I can see exactly what you're saying here. It doesn't sound good and I don't really know what to say!

Or are you emotionally prepared to reward him for being a good man, serving him in a way you failed to prior to his walking away, and being a person he'd be a fool to leave?

I'm not sure what this would look like either and not really sure what you mean. Thank him for providing for us? Not pushing him away? The past year it has been me asking for affection and he has not been remotely interested until our holiday in August...and that occasion he cannot even remember he says! Not sure how I can be a person he'd be a fool to leave other than what I already do. I look good, I do everything I can to provide us with a lovely, welcoming home, look after our children pretty much single-handedly (even prior to him moving out). Yes, I have not let him buy a motorbike - because we couldn't afford for him too. Gee, I'd love a new kitchen too but...we cannot afford one so I haven't got one!

[Zues126]

Hey IP. It's hard to be in these situations. We have been so hurt that we have reason to be angry. It just doesn't help us get what we want, and it doesn't make us feel any better.

When I read your posts I see an awful lot of judgment and criticism. For example, your summary of what's going on is an actual bullet point list of where your H isn't behaving how you want him to:

Basic current situation in a nutshell is this:

* H moved out 11 weeks ago. He is living on the same street, so only a short walk from our home.

* He chooses as and when to come round and how long to stay. He has let the children down a lot, telling them he will be coming and then not showing up - doesn't even call or text to say he's no longer coming.

* When he comes round it is like nothing has changed - he treats me the same and starts all the conversations as I am only speaking when spoken to in an effort to be 'dark'. He has cooked meals and had meals I've cooked. (I wonder if this should stop?)

* Finances are still running the same as before he moved out - joint accounts etc. This is worrying me!

* He has started a Facebook page that he doesn't know I know about. He originally had his relationship status as 'single', now it has changed to 'it's complicated'.

* I have discovered he has bought a motorbike since he left. Again, he doesn't know that I know this. I have no idea how much this has cost out of our joint finances!

* He has also taken out a credit card - he doesn't know that I know this either.

Judging him for what he is doing:

This seems odd that it is OK for him to do this even though he wants a divorce. This sort of spending should be done when we are divorced surely. He has repeatedly said that he wants me to hurry up and pay the visa off, that has joint spending on it, so that he can go to a solicitor and start proceedings but then he takes out more finance behind my back!?!?! I really don't see how this is OK.

And feeling like you are 'letting him get away' with it.

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

Do you understand that critical, controlling, judgmental, resentful, and punishing isn't helpful?

Where is all of this coming from?

You really seem to see his behavior as bad, and your own bad behavior as his fault because it's a natural reaction to how horrible of a husband he has been. When I asked you why he left, you really took the focus off your behavior. Look:

a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, criticizing his parenting? b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing punishing/controlling?to prove that his R with OW wasn't physical and I have had a hard time dealing with it. H has done very little to set right the lack of trust and pain that has come from his EA/PA and constant lies about contact with her over spanning many years, c) He doesn't love me like a wife any more. more judgment/criticism?

Did you read my card game post to Pyrite? About how behavior affects each other and interferes with accountability?

I think you feel like giving up because you are realizing you can't control H, and if that's the case then you don't want him. If H came back, and assuming that he broke off any EA, would you be willing to accept and love him the way he is? Or would your love be contingent upon him feeling and acting the way you want him to?

I think the anger comes from feeling that he has not been a good H to me for a long time. I had PND - he left and began an EA. He then has continued to lie and contact OW since he came back and then done nothing to try to mend the situation and my heartbreak/lack of trust. And then now he says ILYBNILWY!!! After everything he has put me through and hasn't bothered to put right he comes out with that!?!?! Yes, I'm angry about it.

I get it. I'm sorry for your pain. I want you to suffer less in the future and be free to live your life.

Not sure how I can be a person he'd be a fool to leave other than what I already do

Sounds to me like he struggled in the relationship with you. I would guess he felt judged, criticized, controlled, and attacked a lot. This also means he felt unappreciated, unloved, misunderstood, rejected, neglected, and diminished. He met a woman that made him feel totally different. That admired him the way he was, made him feel important, liked the way he was instead of the image of how they thought he ought to be. Like a man dying of thirst he started to drink from that water...but his LOVE for you kept him from divorcing you, or going further...so he tried to end it and come back to his wife, to be faced with what? Further rejection, criticism, and punishment? So he finally gave up because he couldn't live like that anymore...

I don't agree with his choices. And no matter what, they are his choices. But I can't say I agree with yours either. And I don't think he or many men want to be in a relationship like this.

What can you do to become a woman only a fool would leave? I think you need to change the topics of your posts away from H's behavior, and start exploring your role in your relationship, where it comes from, and what you can do to loosen up the death grip a bit.

[Zues126]

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

even here I see judgment and criticism...if we "both" put our minds to it in this context to me suggests that he hasn't...shame on him...and the "best for HIS kids" suggests he's being a bad dad...shame on him again...

Do you see it?

[inpain]

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

even here I see judgment and criticism...if we "both" put our minds to it in this context to me suggests that he hasn't...shame on him...and the "best for HIS kids" suggests he's being a bad dad...shame on him again...

Do you see it?

Actually, the "both" bit referred to me! I know that I have not done my share of making things better because of the pain I've been in from his EA/PA. Not excusing myself, but that was the reason. I just felt that he broke the trust so he should be the one to fix it. Not saying that is right but it's how I felt at the time.

[inpain]

Oh and forgot to add that "best for his kids" wasn't suggesting he is being a bad dad, just that I truly, whole heartedly believe that unless a S is physically beating his/her S and kids then children are better off having their parents together under one roof. I really do not think that all this swapping between each parent's home several times a week is good. If someone asked me if I would want to swap homes every few days I know what my answer would be...it would be a resounding "NO!" and I'm sure that children feel the same - they just don't get given the choice!

[Gmum]

I was a 50/50 kid. My parents got a long well and lived close together and I still hated it. My mom today admits that it's for the benefit of the parents, not the children to do it that way.
I'm sure there are lots of people who do this and it works really well for them. I'm just not one of them.

[inpain]

Hey IP. It's hard to be in these situations. We have been so hurt that we have reason to be angry. It just doesn't help us get what we want, and it doesn't make us feel any better.

When I read your posts I see an awful lot of judgment and criticism. For example, your summary of what's going on is an actual bullet point list of where your H isn't behaving how you want him to:

I'm afraid I don't think I entirely agree with this point Zues (sorry). It was just a summary of what he has done so far because that is the viewpoint I have. Only he could give the situation from the point of view of what I've done the last 11 weeks. Also, I do think that if I came on here and posted that I intended to spend £1000s that we don't have, behind my H's back, on my dream kitchen while I still have H's money coming in, because "that'll teach him!" I think you'd soon be on my H's side thinking that I was an awful money grabbing W trying to sponge every penny off him before he divorces me. That is what he has done by buying this bike. In a M you don't just go and spend £1000s without it being a joint decision and we are not D yet so I firmly believe he shouldn't have done it.

{quote=Zues126]

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

Do you understand that critical, controlling, judgmental, resentful, and punishing isn't helpful?[/quote] Yes, I can see that it isn't helpful, although I do think it is understable when someone is in this kind of awful situation that is out of their control.

[quote=inpain]
a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, criticizing his parenting?

No, not exactly. I have tried over and over to gently help him with his parenting. He isn't great at parenting, and that is not just me who thinks so. I could tell you many things he does and you would be appalled judging from what I've read about how wonderful you are with your children. My family and friends have all commented on the things he does and that they are not good. He himself admits he is too harsh but has no intention of changing or doing anything about it.

b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing punishing/controlling?

Possibly this can be seen like this, but if that is what it is it was not done consciously by me. In order for me to feel 'safe' again in this area I needed reassurances from him. He didn't give them.

Did you read my card game post to Pyrite? About how behavior affects each other and interferes with accountability?

No, I haven't but I'll check it out!

I think you feel like giving up because you are realizing you can't control H, and if that's the case then you don't want him. If H came back, and assuming that he broke off any EA, would you be willing to accept and love him the way he is? Or would your love be contingent upon him feeling and acting the way you want him to?

I don't feel like giving up, I just think I should be protecting myself financially.

Sounds to me like he struggled in the relationship with you. I would guess he felt judged, criticized, controlled, and attacked a lot. This also means he felt unappreciated, unloved, misunderstood, rejected, neglected, and diminished. He met a woman that made him feel totally different. That admired him the way he was, made him feel important, liked the way he was instead of the image of how they thought he ought to be. Like a man dying of thirst he started to drink from that water...but his LOVE for you kept him from divorcing you, or going further...so he tried to end it and come back to his wife, to be faced with what? Further rejection, criticism, and punishment? So he finally gave up because he couldn't live like that anymore...

You're probably right with your guess. Although what you describe above happened AFTER his first dalliance with this OW. His first dalliance with her was because I had PND.

I don't agree with his choices. And no matter what, they are his choices. But I can't say I agree with yours either. And I don't think he or many men want to be in a relationship like this.

No, you're right, I'm sure they don't, and neither do I. I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust my H because he doesn't tell the truth and thinks it's OK to meet up with OW for coffee and whatever else.

What can you do to become a woman only a fool would leave? I think you need to change the topics of your posts away from H's behavior, and start exploring your role in your relationship, where it comes from, and what you can do to loosen up the death grip a bit.

I think it comes from complete and utter insecurity because of the constant bombshells that have dripped into my marriage over several years, but maybe I'm not looking deeply enough? I don't know.

[inpain]

I was a 50/50 kid. My parents got a long well and lived close together and I still hated it. My mom today admits that it's for the benefit of the parents, not the children to do it that way.
I'm sure there are lots of people who do this and it works really well for them. I'm just not one of them.

I'm so sorry to hear that Gmum and I can totally understand you hating it. I know I would too and that is why I don't want it for my children. I think it is completely selfish of adults to do this to their children (no offence to your parents or anyone else). As I said, now as an adult I wouldn't want to live in two different houses and live out of a suitcase all my life and I don't want it for my children. It breaks my heart.

[Zues126]

No worries if we're on different pages. Take what helps.

I think it comes from complete and utter insecurity because of the constant bombshells that have dripped into my marriage over several years, but maybe I'm not looking deeply enough? I don't know.

I've already shared my thoughts so I will keep this post short (except for the quote), but I do find it interesting that even in your own introspection about your controlling and critical behavior, you feel it is because of your H's shortcomings. Hmm.

This is the card game I put together for my old buddy Pyrite:

Quote:
I read your post this morning but had to work all day and then had kid time tonight, this was my first chance to get back to you. I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

CONCLUSION-

So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.

Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!

For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.

Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.

When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.
_________________________

[inpain]

WOW! This is a great explanation Zues, and exactly what has happened in my M.

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons, and as your 'card game' has shown, he felt he had his too.

Not really sure where this leaves me. I really don't think I would be like this with anyone else because I wasn't like it before and this is my 2nd M. My first one ended after a very short time because he was violent towards me and spent most nights out pretending to work but actually out on the town with several other women. I would and did do anything for my current WAH, I adored him and felt so lucky to have him in my life after my disastrous 1st M. He was the guy who would never hurt me (his words).

Obviously I have a lot of work to do on myself but I do not think it will save my M. Or, does your card game mean that I should now be playing 10s to my H in an effort to show how loving I can be even in the face of nothing in return?

[Zues126]

Here was my post to Kyrie about a mission statement.

Basically you do some soul searching about what your 180s should be, and what you are at your best self without the anger and resentment and fear and neediness- who does that person look like? Then you write it out, think about it, and use that as your guiding force when interacting, responding to texts, and especially when making decisions! So you shouldn't be playing 10s in the sense of a WIFE, but you should be playing your idea of a 10 for a good woman co-parenting with a hurting partner.

If you read my post on my thread you'll see I write a lot. Back in 2011 I actually wrote out the doubts and fears I had, then wrote out my responses to them so I could combat those thoughts when they hit. I do something similar in this mission statement below, it's a way to prepare for your feelings without letting them force you off the path you want to be on.

You don't want to tell him F off and let's get divorced, that's not what you want. You don't want to tell him you'll put up with this indefinitely, that's not what you want either. You don't want to spend time and mental energy trying everything under the sun hoping that some day he treats you like a human being, because you can't win that game. And you don't want to get cold and withdraw and use this to justify being resentful and distant because that's not the person you want to be and that won't help either.

Wow. I can see why you feel like you're out of options.

What I try to do is break this down into two parts:

1. What do you want to say?
2. How do you communicate this without saying it (actions not words)?

I think you're still struggling to figure out what you want to say. If you can't figure what you're trying to communicate, then you will be coming across as very inconsistent, and you will be very conflicted as you continue to wrestle with the same things. That's why I'm a believer in a mission statement, something you can use to guide all of your actions and responses.

For example, if your mission statement was this: I am not prepared to get divorced, or give up on my H or my marriage, but nor am I prepared to play a game I can't win, and I'm not going to be resentful and withdrawn...so my missionis to figure out in my mind what I feel a good wife would do for her husband, and I will do my best to do that without expectation of any positive responses...I will sort my feelings out in ways that doesn't impact my commitments to my H...with the only exception being that I will have clear boundaries that when he crosses I will withdraw from TEMPORARILY, then proceed to be loving again in our next interaction...and I will work with IC to sift for the grain of truth behind his spew and help process the pain of my unmet needs, help clarify those boundaries, and help with personal growth and other goals that will allow me to enjoy the rest of my life.

That's a lot of words, but it's a complicated situation. But from that perspective, when he spews via text you can say to yourself "ok, that hurts, I can't win this game. OK, that's fine. I knew I can't, I need to take a deep breath, let go of my expectations, and have a moment of silence for my unmet needs. Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange. I will continue to do what I believe a good wife should, and our next exchange we can start fresh. If he didn't violate a clear boundary then I will put the emotional pain on a shelf for a minute, respond in a way that *I* feel good about, and pat myself on the back since he isn't about to. Then I will take a moment after it all to sit with my hurt, validate my own feelings, and make some mental notes for my next IC to understand where I can grow."

Your brain will keep wanting to go to 'what happens if I do all of this and nothing changes, can I put up with this forever, can I really live my entire life like this', etc, etc. You just have to let that go and find joy in being a strong woman in a tough spot. It won't be like this forever. Have faith.

[Zues126]

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons, and as your 'card game' has shown, he felt he had his too.

First of all, believe none of what he says and have of what he does.

But, for your 180s...think back to how your low numbers were reflected. This should tell you where to start looking.

[Irish M]

I think it is completely selfish of adults to do this to their children (no offence to your parents or anyone else). As I said, now as an adult I wouldn't want to live in two different houses and live out of a suitcase all my life and I don't want it for my children. It breaks my heart.

Hi Inpain, I agree with you. I have some single parent friends or mixed marriages where the kids hate each other and resent the new boyfriend or girlfriend of their parent. Some even have the nerve to say life is good, they brag that they don't see their kids one week out of 2 and they have freedom. Freedom to do what they want. No family values or care for what these children have to go through. I am not one of those people. My W wasn't either. This current copy with

added note... thanks for the drop in on my situation. You give me strength in your words and you even shared some wisdom you picked up here. Made me smile. You are doing great.

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons,

Don't think about if you blew it long ago. What happened happened. You can't change the past and you acted the way you did because that is how you felt at that time. I regret not seeing this coming. 2nd time as well for me. As I look back, all the signs were there. Remember this is MLC. It was going to happen anyway. It would of happened if he was with another woman and she would be here writing this instead of you. They were programmed to do this.

Don't believe a word of what he says now, he is projecting onto you his thoughts about himself. All the never loved you, wasted so many years, you weren't there for me are all just him justifying his actions.

What you do with your future relationship with your H is up to you.

remember this phrase.. "sorry you feel that way" whenever he says something hurtful or negative about your relationship of the past. I used it often. I enjoyed saying it because it gave me power and shut the subject down.

Hugs to you
Irish

[inpain]

First of all, believe none of what he says and have of what he does.

Well, the first part shouldn't be too difficult as all he does is make small talk these days! Don't feel like he is ever going to bring up any of the things that need discussing if he wants to D me, such as finances and children!

But, for your 180s...think back to how your low numbers were reflected. This should tell you where to start looking.

OK, I admit this confuses me. How does seeing how he reacted to my low numbers tell me where to start?

[Zues126]

I just meant think about what your low numbers looked like, then do better within the bounds of your current sitch.

So if you, at your worst, rolled your eyes and dismissed what he said...work on validating and treating him with respect. Etc.

The thing is it isn't usually that one dimensional. Sometimes there is a sensitivity or fear or neediness or something that exposes an emotional nerve to where one can almost feel like they have no alternative response when someone rubs up against that nerve. They can't help but react and protect themselves. So often changing the reaction involves understanding where the sensitive spots are and doing some soul searching to find ways to change that.

[inpain]

Hi Inpain, I agree with you. I have some single parent friends or mixed marriages where the kids hate each other and resent the new boyfriend or girlfriend of their parent. Some even have the nerve to say life is good, they brag that they don't see their kids one week out of 2 and they have freedom. Freedom to do what they want. No family values or care for what these children have to go through. I am not one of those people. My W wasn't either. This current copy with

Oh I whole heartedly agree Irish! That really upsets me too when I hear people talking about the freedom they get by not living with their children. It makes me feel sick to the stomach. I have actually had divorced colleagues and friends say to me since H left that I will actually come to love my weekends without the kids as I will be able to do whatever I like!!!!! I cannot believe that they say this to me when I am distraught at the thought of not seeing my children when their Dad has access. I don't want freedom to do what I want, I want to be with my children every day, as I had planned to be when I had them!

added note... thanks for the drop in on my situation. You give me strength in your words and you even shared some wisdom you picked up here. Made me smile. You are doing great.

I'm glad I managed to make you smile. I don't feel like I'm doing great, but thank you.

Don't think about if you blew it long ago. What happened happened. You can't change the past and you acted the way you did because that is how you felt at that time. I regret not seeing this coming. 2nd time as well for me. As I look back, all the signs were there. Remember this is MLC. It was going to happen anyway. It would of happened if he was with another woman and she would be here writing this instead of you. They were programmed to do this.

Don't believe a word of what he says now, he is projecting onto you his thoughts about himself. All the never loved you, wasted so many years, you weren't there for me are all just him justifying his actions.

What you do with your future relationship with your H is up to you.

remember this phrase.. "sorry you feel that way" whenever he says something hurtful or negative about your relationship of the past. I used it often. I enjoyed saying it because it gave me power and shut the subject down.

I will try to remember that he is just projecting onto me. He does make me feel very guilty though, as though it is all my fault. But then I remind myself that he chose to look outside the M and that was the beginning of the end for us.

[inpain]

Ah!! Thanks Zues, I understand now.

The good news is that I have already been doing this a lot! I would say that my main 'thing' was that I didn't really act interested in what he had to say sometimes. I have been making sure that when he speaks I stop what I'm doing, look directly at him and always show an interest in whatever it is he's saying.

I will have a think back to other 'low number' times. Thanks Zues!

[inpain]

H almost came face to face with my Mum today! He was dropping off the car so that I could take S & D somewhere after school. He text to say he was on his way and in my text back I made it clear my Mum was here. I know my Mum has no desire to see him because she doesn't trust herself not to give him a piece of her mind, and I'm quite sure H wouldn't want to see her either - too embarrassed!

Then he comes and walks straight in the house! He got to the door of the room where my Mum and I were sitting having a chat and hot footed it in the other direction, without making eye contact, quicker than quick! Strange.

He came round later and carried out his usual routine for whenever he comes round. He walks in, doesn't say a word to anyone, and takes up his lounging position on the settee. After about an hour he commented that he couldn't believe nobody had noticed he'd shaved off his beard after all the complaints from S & D about it. He hadn't really shaved it totally off, the stubble was still there so, to me, it was barely noticeable that he'd shaved it off. Odd that he seemed put out that none of us had noticed. He sat flicking about on his phone as he always does when he's here.

I wasn't going to let him spoil our plans so at bed time we continued with the book we've been reading. He came up with us and sat on the floor listening too. Then as soon as it was done he left saying he'd see the kids tomorrow.

He just comes and goes as he pleases, whenever it suits him and I do find it unsettling. It's like the three of us are settled and happy for the evening and then he descends on us with a sense of gloom. He barely talks to the kids and they barely talk to him either. He just arrives, sits looking at his phone and leaves.

He looks dreadful (this is an observation not a criticism Zues !). He is always in ill fitting jogging bottoms and a baggy fleece. They look like they could walk to the washing machine on their own. I thought I looked tired but he looks worse and along with his stubble he just looks altogether scruffy. He is constantly complaining of feeling ill (feeling sick and stomach problems) and that he has hardly slept. It seems to me that this new life he is forging for himself is not agreeing with him much.

S said tonight that he is tired of him just turning up and 'hanging around' doing nothing. He asked, "What is the point Dad coming here to just sit looking at his phone, he might as well not bother." It is so sad. H moved out 11 weeks ago and in that short space of time S has gone from desperately wanting him to come round to feeling like this. If only H could see the damage he is doing to his R with his children.

[NYGal]

I hope you're doing well today, inpain. Thinking of you.

[inpain]

Hi NYGal, thanks for checking in on me .

I'm really not well today. I was up for what seemed like at least half the night with the most dreadful cold and flu symptoms that suddenly hit last night and the full things has taken hold today. Have the most awful headache that won't shift . My GAL tonight will be tucking myself in bed with a warm drink, not very exciting.

When H came round to see the kids tonight he asked me my opinion on a job offer. It really threw me, and upset me because his working hours were awful when we were together, he hardly saw the kids and hardly had any weekends off. He always refused to do anything about it as he felt happiness at work came before how much he saw his family. Now, now that he has left he could be getting a job with the perfect hours I always dreamed of. It was galling to say the least. I told him it didn't really have anything to do with me anymore. He actually looked pained by that answer and said that he still really values my opinion!! What!?!?! I told him that if we were still together those hours would have been my dream come true, that was something I'd always wanted but that it was his decision based on what he thought would make him happiest. He looked upset that I didn't want to offer more thoughts on the matter. He is so confusing!

Then, once the kids were in bed he told me I looked dreadful and started getting me things to make me more comfortable! I really wish he hadn't. All it has done is highlight what I've lost and how sweet he used to be if I needed looking after. Of course, he still just left after getting me the things. He will be back again in the morning at 7am to see the kids and take D to school. Thought I was getting better at numbing away the pain but no, it's right there, a giant hole in my heart.

[NYGal]

If he offers to help you, I think you should just be grateful and let him take care of you. Maybe when he sees your gratitude he'll remember how nice it is to have a spouse to see you through the hard times, someone who always has your back. You can cry when he leaves. I bet he does still value your opinion.

I don't know your whole story, inpain, but it's not over yet. IMHO, keep DBing, even if that means accepting his help when you need it. How can that hurt? Well, it can hurt you if it makes you remember what you're missing, but you're going to remember it anyway. I hope you feel better soon, I really do.

[Mona52]

(((inpain)))emotions run high when we feel under the weather. Try out some thought stopping techniques to think about something else to give yourself a break from the pain. It sounds like your H is still flapping confused in the wind. No use flapping along with him. Stay grounded and steady, and get lots of rest!

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

Hope you feel better soon. Emotions do run high when not rested or sick.

I too think your H is genuinely interested in your opinion on his job search. He also confirmed it to you.
You answered it very well in both saying it doesn't concern you and that it would have been the dream hours if you were still together.

As for him helping you. That's great . Is it because he needs to relieve guilt? Is it because he considers you a friend and he's helping out? Is it because the old H is shinning through? I'm sure all these questions and more ran through your head. And the answer doesn't matter. Take it for what it is and that's it. Say thanks when he does do something for you. He's watching you and your changes and attitude are being recorded in the back of his mind. If you come off as hurt, angry, upset or weak he'll avoid. There's not much sympathy or empathy with these MLC'r so he won't feel sorry for you.

So if he wants to help. Let him and accept it. Thank you's are always nice to hear.
If you don't need his help then just tell him you'll manage alone.

Get some rest if you can.

Irish

[inpain]

Thanks for the hugs Mona! Not sure if H is flapping around in the wind or if he is just so naive that he thinks that's how you behave when you've left your wife! He walks in and just makes himself at home as though nothing has changed whenever he comes round!

[inpain]

I too think your H is genuinely interested in your opinion on his job search. He also confirmed it to you.
You answered it very well in both saying it doesn't concern you and that it would have been the dream hours if you were still together.

I think it just upset me that he still values my opinion but doesn't value me enough to work on a R with me.

[quote-=IrishM]As for him helping you. That's great . Is it because he needs to relieve guilt? Is it because he considers you a friend and he's helping out? Is it because the old H is shinning through? I'm sure all these questions and more ran through your head.[/quote]

Yes all of the above ran through my head. Of course, I hoped/hope it is the last one but realistically it is more likely to be the first one. I did thank him but it didn't sound very heartfelt because I was struggling to compose my voice and not cry!

[inpain]

Feel so upset today and have burst into tears as soon as I got home. I just miss H so much. He used to text me all the time throughout the day (and evening if he was at work) and the whole time just feels so empty without him doing that. I don't even get my phone out at break or lunch anymore - I know there will be no messages. H was the only person who contacted me by text. I wonder how he stands it. He was the one who initiated almost all of the texts - surely he must miss that too? I could cry every day when I see all my colleagues on their phones and mine is forever silent. Tired of every little thing making my heart ache. Wish I was as good at detaching as H clearly is.

[NYGal]

inpain, don't try and figure out what H is thinking. You have no idea. He may be missing you but trying really hard not to contact you. That's what my W is doing, I believe. I saw her last Friday and she looked so happy. (So did I, if anyone had bothered to look. Inside I was a mess.) Then a few days later she told me how unhappy she is, and that she made so many mistakes. Which is all well and good, but it doesn't mean we're back together. We're not.

It's OK to cry, it really is, especially now that you're home. The tears are cleansing. If you can't stop, then try deep breathing and try to clear your mind. Or go to a place where no one can hear you (car perhaps?) and shout. For me it's every nasty word I can to describe the OW. Whatever works for you. It feels good. But in the meantime, just keep crying. It's OK.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

I too have seen my W so happy. Once parked at the bank laughing it up on the phone like life was so much better. I was a mess and my D's were torn apart. Like NYGal my W messaged me later near Xmas and said it was all her fault, the damage etc. She's not doing anything to fix it but she had a moment of clarity.

So sorry you have this hurt. It is ok to cry. it's normal to cry. Don't hold it in. So glad you share it here though.

keep yourself busy... one day you will look back and you will see your progress.

the first 2 months for me was hell. Seemed like the days were so long and the month lasted forever. I look back now and it feels like 2 weeks have gone by since BD.

Does reading other situations help you at all or does it make is worse? Me it helped me so much to understand all this. To feel like I'm not alone. Than I'm not crazy... and I'm not to blame.

Also the support from others is so valuable.

take care of yourself.
Hugs
Irish

[inpain]

Hi NYGal and Irish

Thank you both so much, I really need support today. My H doesn't even seem happy, that hurts too, he's no happier yet still doesn't want to work on a R.

Reading other situations seems to help and not help all at the same time really. It helps to know I'm not alone and to see similarities between my situation and other situations but at the same time I find it fills me with despair. I don't see any recent success stories (and by success stories I mean R with the WAS). The whole thing just seems so hopeless. My S said today that he doesn't think Dad is ever coming back now. That broke my heart too. Also I've been looking at banking figures and the bills that H wants paying off before he'll go to a solicitor will be paid off on Friday. In one way that fills me with dread that he might go to a solicitor once he knows they are paid off, and in another way the thought of that fills me almost with a kind of relief that at least I'll know, and won't keep torturing myself with the hope that he will come home.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

I understand your search for success stories. I did it as well and was so saddened by all the tragic ending and no reconciliations.

I now believe there are many successes. There are so many poster here that are current situations. All like you and me searching for answers. I'll say it again because i really want you to think about it. The answers are in yourself. This forum is about you. Not your H. Or finding that secret recipe to snap him out of it and get him home.

The success stories are probably not even being told. If your H came back and you worked on your R. You wouldn't come here. Many disappear so we never get updates. There are a handful that do come back to share their story. These are amazing souls. Sad thing is humanity is selfish. We all want but many don't give back.

Also so many sitch end in no R. Not because the MLC doesn't come back... it's because us the LBS move on. Find a new love and don't look back.

I know of 3 stories local to people i know.

-1 My bosses best friend. His W left. gone 3 years. he had full custody of his young kids. He waited... She crashed, nearly overdosed and ended up in the hospital. She called out to him for help. they have been back together for the last 2 years . going strong in their NEW relationship together. recently remarried.

-2 My hairdressers SIL - same thing left her brother we will call Mike. 2 years. Mike has the kids. Mike waited a year but eventually met someone. She went nuts when she saw mike moving on. ..Wanted him back. Saying things like how could you do this to me. During the time she was gone she had 5 OM's.. Mike got married last year to his new girlfriend. His ex showed up the day before the wedding and scratch his face so deep it left a scar. Mike did not want the MLC back it was his choice.. too much damage.

3- My brothers neighbor. H left his W for an employee of his. One day happy family the next day moving van. 8 months he was gone.. He was living his dream life of freedom, cashed in his retirement and nearly lost his business. He crashed and he came running back. He had to be hospitalized because his chemical imbalance was affecting his judgement. He was treated and gets bi-yearly follow ups. They are still together. Working on it but He knows he was not himself and regrets it all. He is a changed man. works less hours, even dresses more relaxed.. My brother says it was good for him because the other guy was a jerk.

I've spoken to all of these LBS and none of them even ventured on a site like this. They dealt with it alone. So imagine how many out there don't even come on this forum. And the many that just read the posts without sharing their stories.

I'm sure there are a lot more successes out there. People just don't share.

Don't give up hope if that's what you want. Don't dwell on it either. Let him go.

If and when he comes back. It's up to you if you take him back.

Irish

[inpain]

Thank you so much for sharing those 3 stories Irish. They show that there are so many different endings to these situations. I am really struggling with letting him go. I love him and miss him so much. Missing him seems crazy when he is here almost every day to see the kids, but it is not the same. I know he isn't here to see me and there are no smiles, no hugs and having no contact through texts like we used to do when we were apart feels like it is killing me. I want to text him so badly. Then there is the fact that when he does text about coming round to see the kids there is the larger than life lack of an X on the end. Who would have thought that a simple letter X not being there could hurt so much. I wonder how the people that don't come to sites like this handle the situation? They know nothing of going dark etc.

I also wonder what other people's families say and what they think about our situations. My family seem to think I'm crazy for wanting anything more to do with H after everything he has done and are furious with him for what this is doing to the children.

I have been pondering the whole thing for days now and I just don't see how I can get past my current state of mind whilst I still see H almost every day. Reminding me every day that he doesn't love me.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

you are still thinking about what he thinks. If he loves you etc.

What are you doing to keep yourself busy. Even if its just to paint the bedroom a new color. You have to change your thoughts about your H.

Eventually you will stop talking about this to your surrounding family and friends. Do not talk to his family about him... that's a big no no.. In my case my mom is the only one that truly understands that my W is not well. My friends all say get over her and move on. They even ask me " If she comes back can you really live with the idea that she could do this again."

I got to the point I know who supports me and who doesn't judge me.. they let me say what i need to say because holding it all in is no good.

That's what this forum is for. So you can vent here. Talk to others that are living it. Get tips on bettering yourself and hopefully have a better future relationship with your H, if that is what happens... and I hope.

As for texting him... don't. Most times they won't answer anyway or it will push them further away. If you want to write him something, write it on a paper then throw it away.

Have you done any of the homework they sent you when you first joined here and posted? When you start your new thread you should put it in Mid Life Crisis section. You will get more attention to your thread and more support.

Trust me i was exactly how you are now.. I thought of it day and night. I still do but i see it differently and I have disconnected.

many are here for you... keep writing your thoughts and questions... you are not alone.

Irish

[inpain]

Hi Irish

Thanks for your post, you're right, I am still trying to figure out what he thinks and feels, even though it's hopeless.

What am I doing to keep busy? Well, mostly just enjoying time with my kids. It's hard to think of things to do when I feel so low. It is really an effort to actually get up and do the day to day run of the mill things right now.

My Mum vacillates between agreeing he's having some sort of MLC or is depressed, and thinking he's just a selfish *%*% who is showing his true colours. My Dad is just so disgusted with his behaviour that he just wants him out of our lives.

I am being good at not texting him. I just wish I could, that's all.

Yes, I've done all of the homework that is posted on your first posts. Read it all several times. I keep trying to be the lighthouse - that is the story that spoke to me most for my situation. Not sure if it is just allowing H to cake eat though.

I cried in front of H on Friday. H said before Christmas that he wouldn't be going to a solicitor until certain bills were paid. I do all of the banking and I paid them on Friday. I felt so scared about it, because it felt like those bills were the only thing keeping me from being a divorced person. H came round to see the kids and again acted perfectly happy with me, just like old times, like nothing is wrong. Before he left I asked to speak to him away from the children. I told him the bills were paid so he could go to a solicitor and divorce me now. He looked perplexed and confused. I asked him what was wrong, that I thought he wanted them paying off. He said he did, just didn't expect them to be paid so soon. I told him I can't carry on like this any more. That I need to know how my life is going to be because I'm going to have to claim benefits and things without his money to support me. He said, "I know." He said we'd talk about it on Sunday when he comes round. I told him I just didn't understand why we can't work things out as he acts perfectly happy with me when he comes round. He said that getting on when we don't live together is different to getting on living together. I told him again I'm sorry for my part in our M problems and that I don't want a D and wish we could work things out. I burst into tears and asked him if he realises how hard it is for me to have him coming round almost every day, acting OK with me and the kids and then walking out to another home. He said that he hadn't really thought about it because he's just thinking about himself right now. Could have laughed right there, like he needed to tell me he's only thinking about himself! That has been very apparent since the moment he said ILYBNILWY back in September! He said he was sorry, put a hand on my shoulder and then left.


Before our talk the kids had asked him if we could have a film night over the weekend. So we had that last night and H was still chatting away with me as though nothing is wrong. After the film D and I were playing games and having a lot of fun. There was lots of laughter. He just watched like he was watching a film. Didn't attempt to join in. Then he left.

He is supposed to be coming round again today as it's his weekend off. At least this time he is choosing to spend it seeing the children instead of whatever he's chosen to do on the other 3 weekends off he's had since he left us. Perhaps that's a baby step. I'm wondering if he will actually talk to me about the D and finances like he said on Friday or not. I'm thinking that if I don't bring it up he won't. I don't know what to do. I don't want him to go to a solicitor obviously, but at the same time it is hurting me so much having him come here to see the kids almost every day and act like nothing has changed for the time that he is actually here. I read somewhere on here that they don't wake up out of their 'fog' until they actually lose something. This plays on my mind and makes me want to do something different. I don't feel like allowing him to come and go as he pleases is making him lose anything. Nor is it making him see the reality of the life he is creating if he divorces me. At the moment he hasn't really lost anything so what is there to snap him out of his 'fog'?

[Zues126]

Inpain, if you want to save your marriage you'd better step it up. I get that you're in pain and I'm sorry. It's now up to you. Do you want this forum to be a support forum while you mourn the loss of your marriage? Or do you want it to be a support forum to help you save your marriage? There is a difference. Right now you are destroying your marriage and looking for shoulders to cry on. I'm not interested in that. I believe in marriage, which means I believe you have a responsibility to pull it together and do your part. While WAH is responsible for the decision to leave, you are not making it easy for him to return. I'd recommend rereading your posts from the beginning, maybe by seeing the patterns play out repeatedly you could break free. For example:

H said before Christmas that he wouldn't be going to a solicitor until certain bills were paid. I do all of the banking and I paid them on Friday. I felt so scared about it, because it felt like those bills were the only thing keeping me from being a divorced person. H came round to see the kids and again acted perfectly happy with me, just like old times, like nothing is wrong. Before he left I asked to speak to him away from the children. I told him the bills were paid so he could go to a solicitor and divorce me now. He looked perplexed and confused. I asked him what was wrong, that I thought he wanted them paying off. He said he did, just didn't expect them to be paid so soon.

Believe none of what he says and half of what he does. See, WAH made a casual comment over a month ago about not seeing a solicitor until certain bills were paid. Great. That is something he said. Why did you believe this to be so factual? You literally spent over a month stewing about this comment, then when you referred back to it you surprised him and completely caught him off guard because it's so bizarre that you clung to this offhand comment as if it was written in stone. The fact that he doesn't mean everything he says isn't strange, the fact that you continue to think he does is. I have posted this to you before. There is a reason I keep bringing this up.

I cried in front of H on Friday...

If you want to save your marriage you can't allow your emotions to steer your behavior. Guys have a word for women like this: Crazy. Crazy isn't good. Crazy is unsafe and to be avoided.

I understand these are your feelings. I am not suggesting that having these feelings makes you crazy. It is acting on them in this way that is scary to men.

Consider the reverse with a man acting on his emotion of anger. Suppose you were leaving your husband because you found the relationship to be scary. When you interacted it was sometimes ok, but other times he would lose his temper. When he'd lose his temper he'd get scary, turn red, sometimes throw things around, break things. Let me ask- would that make you feel safe?

When a woman lets her emotions control her behavior it makes guys feel as unsafe as when men do it. They don't understand all of these emotions, they just know that for some reason the woman is ultra intense, and somehow it is all their fault and what they are doing is horribly wrong. This is scary and critical, and makes guys want to go away to where they are safe and good enough. But if you can keep your emotions under control and express them in safe ways, there is a place to be your entire self while still allowing H to be himself without feeling threatened.

I told him I can't carry on like this any more. That I need to know how my life is going to be because I'm going to have to claim benefits and things without his money to support me. He said, "I know." He said we'd talk about it on Sunday when he comes round.

Don't start R talks. You basically asked him to please file a divorce. "H, I want this to be over, the bills you said were in the way have been taken care of, I need the D for legal protection, please file." You are literally pressuring him to file divorce.

I told him I just didn't understand why we can't work things out as he acts perfectly happy with me when he comes round. He said that getting on when we don't live together is different to getting on living together. I told him again I'm sorry for my part in our M problems and that I don't want a D and wish we could work things out. I burst into tears and asked him if he realises how hard it is for me to have him coming round almost every day, acting OK with me and the kids and then walking out to another home.

Validate How can your H possibly feel like you've ever heard what he says when you start in with this? Let me remind you, he left because he felt he spent years of his life trying to find a way to live with you, and went through so much pain he felt destroyed, and that he had to leave for self preservation. He tried to communicate that to you, and your response is 'why can't we work this out'? He TRIED to work it out. He has done everything he could think to do. In a last ditch effort he told you that, thinking maybe, just maybe there was something more YOU could do to bridge the gap. And you dismiss what he's told you and put it back on him to man up and make it work. Not happening.


IP, this is a 2x4 because I haven't seen you get on a DB road. I haven't seen detachment. I haven't heard about GAL. I see no goals set. You haven't talked about 180s and I have seen no changes of any type as a result. You're not validating what he's telling you. And you're breaking most of the 37 rules.

I looked through your old posts and didn't find much of you working on yourself. I found this from the beginning: I know that I have caused some of the situation too - I was angry and hurt for a long time and couldn't seem to stop myself being snappy with him. I suppose I want a chance to show him that I can change that side of me, but there is no chance of doing that when he isn't living here. Clearly you were wrong, you've had many opportunities to show your behavior but haven't used them well.

Meanwhile I can tell your H loves you, he hasn't filed, he continues to spend time with you and with the family. And YOU are a good person, loving, committed, loyal, passionate, and a great mom. You ask H why he doesn't want to work on the marriage...Inpain, why don't YOU want to work on the marriage? The only catch is you don't get to work on it your way, in which you bury your problems, act out your emotions, and wait for H to make it all better...you'd have to work on the marriage the DB way in which you transcend your emotions, challenge yourself, and hold yourself accountable for bridging the gap between you and WAH.

At this point I'd really like to know if you are committed to your marriage enough and believe in the DB approach. If not I'm sure the good people on this forum will support you as you go through your divorce. I just think it would help us to understand what you want from us. DB coaching or comfort?

[- MB -]

Zues, I know you're a busy guy, but if you get a minute maybe you could read my thread and offer me some advice as well. I would sure appreciate it!

[- MB -]

I learned early on that friends and family have your best insterests at heart, BUT, you really can't listen to what they tell you because they are coming from a place where they just don't want to see you cry and hurt any more. Their advice always seems to be to cut your losses and move on. I get so tired of hearing this so I really try not to talk to any of them about it any more. They just don't understand!

As far as you H coming and going and acting as if nothing is wrong....LET HIM! At least this way you have interactions with him where you can work on things. He gets a chance to see if you're changing. My H and I have NC at all. None. Nadda. Zip. NOTHING!!! How will he ever know if I've changed or not? Your H is still being nice and still wants to be around you and the kids, and still wants to come to the house that feels like his home. I would be so thankful if I could have this kind of chance with my H. Don't waste it. You look your best, GAL, and show him how awesome you are. You can do this. Don't run him off, embrace the opportunity you've been given.

[inpain]

Inpain, if you want to save your marriage you'd better step it up. I get that you're in pain and I'm sorry. It's now up to you. Do you want this forum to be a support forum while you mourn the loss of your marriage? Or do you want it to be a support forum to help you save your marriage?

Hi Zues, thanks for your post. I DO want to save my marriage but I don't know how. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't get it. I want the support of this forum to save my marriage but I feel like a lot of the advice is about how to move on and not be upset anymore. I feel like things to save my marriage are too vague. Maybe I'm just not understanding the advice, I don't know. I have re read my posts from the beginning, I do it quite often, I just don't see any patterns that you speak of.

I don't understand why it was strange of me to refer back to H's comment about going to a solicitor once bills were paid off. He has asked me on several occasions how much we owe and how long I think it will be until they're paid off. So I told him when they were.

But if you can keep your emotions under control and express them in safe ways, there is a place to be your entire self while still allowing H to be himself without feeling threatened.

OK, I get this, but how, from a man's point of view, do I express my emotions in safe ways to him?

Don't start R talks. You basically asked him to please file a divorce. "H, I want this to be over, the bills you said were in the way have been taken care of, I need the D for legal protection, please file." You are literally pressuring him to file divorce.

I did, you're right, but not because I want legal protection. I will be far worse off in every way once we're divorced, I gain no legal protection from it. I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

Validate How can your H possibly feel like you've ever heard what he says when you start in with this? Let me remind you, he left because he felt he spent years of his life trying to find a way to live with you, and went through so much pain he felt destroyed, and that he had to leave for self preservation. He tried to communicate that to you, and your response is 'why can't we work this out'? He TRIED to work it out. He has done everything he could think to do. In a last ditch effort he told you that, thinking maybe, just maybe there was something more YOU could do to bridge the gap. And you dismiss what he's told you and put it back on him to man up and make it work. Not happening.

Then what should I be saying? How do I validate? All he says is he tried for years. When he says that I say I know you did and I'm sorry. What more can I say? This is what I don't understand and feel is vague. How am I supposed to make it easy for him to come home as you say?

IP, this is a 2x4 because I haven't seen you get on a DB road. I haven't seen detachment. I haven't heard about GAL. I see no goals set. You haven't talked about 180s and I have seen no changes of any type as a result. You're not validating what he's telling you. And you're breaking most of the 37 rules.

I don't understand how I can detach when he is round here almost every day acting perfectly fine with me. Am I supposed to ignore him and go out? One of his complaints was I didn't pay attention so now I am - isn't that a 180? I did try to set some goals in one of my posts and asked for opinions if I was on the right lines with them. I didn't get a response to them and so I've just let that drop because I don't know if they're right or not.

Again, I don't know how I'm supposed to validate what he tells me? He doesn't talk about any of it for me to validate anything. I just don't understand any of this stuff.

I thought I was doing pretty good with the 37 rules. I never contact him. I make sure I look nice all the time and am keeping on top of the house. Apart from this bills conversation this weekend I don't see what 37 rules I've broken. I haven't said a word to him about any of this for a long time. He just comes and goes as and when it suits him, without challenge and I act happy when he comes. What more should I be doing? I really don't understand which is probably why you say I'm destroying my M.

Meanwhile I can tell your H loves you, he hasn't filed, he continues to spend time with you and with the family. And YOU are a good person, loving, committed, loyal, passionate, and a great mom. You ask H why he doesn't want to work on the marriage...Inpain, why don't YOU want to work on the marriage? The only catch is you don't get to work on it your way, in which you bury your problems, act out your emotions, and wait for H to make it all better...you'd have to work on the marriage the DB way in which you transcend your emotions, challenge yourself, and hold yourself accountable for bridging the gap between you and WAH.

I DO want to work on the M. What's left of it. This isn't really a M right now is it? I don't want to bury my problems, I want H to come home so that we can work them out. I don't understand why that's wrong. I don't know how hold myself accountable and bridge the gap between us. What do you mean? I've said I've been wrong, I've said sorry, I've stopped 'going on' at him, I've acted happy. I really don't understand what you think I'm doing wrong, or not doing that I should be doing. Please explain.

[inpain]

I learned early on that friends and family have your best insterests at heart, BUT, you really can't listen to what they tell you because they are coming from a place where they just don't want to see you cry and hurt any more. Their advice always seems to be to cut your losses and move on. I get so tired of hearing this so I really try not to talk to any of them about it any more. They just don't understand!

Hi MB, thanks for your post. Yes, this is how I feel, and I don't talk to anyone in real life about it much anymore, just my Mum occasionally when I really can't take any more. But I feel like I need to talk about it.

As far as you H coming and going and acting as if nothing is wrong....LET HIM! At least this way you have interactions with him where you can work on things. He gets a chance to see if you're changing. My H and I have NC at all. None. Nadda. Zip. NOTHING!!! How will he ever know if I've changed or not? Your H is still being nice and still wants to be around you and the kids, and still wants to come to the house that feels like his home. I would be so thankful if I could have this kind of chance with my H. Don't waste it. You look your best, GAL, and show him how awesome you are. You can do this. Don't run him off, embrace the opportunity you've been given.

I'm sorry you don't have this chance with your H MB. It's not that I don't appreciate the chance, I do, and I always look my best, the kids and I are doing lots of fun things without him - this is my GAL. I feel I'm doing these things, it just doesn't have any effect.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

It's not easy becuse you are still attached to the old H. Your H is not that guy right now. Selfish and narcicistic behaviour takes over. He even told you he didn't realize how him being around you all the time affects you. Don't think he cares...He is just pleasing himself.

I know it always sounds like everyone is telling you to move on. We are. But we are not telling you to give up on him or the marriage. It's part of your journey to let him go. He has to feel the consequences of his choice. Right now it's all good.
He sees you and the kids as he wishes. Makes him feel good. You crying only shows him he still has you and he's in control. You need to disconnect in order for him to want to connect. If he doesn't well you at least will be disconnected and if you close the door it will be your choice and it will be easier.

You need to set your boundaries, restrict him from just coming by. Set up a schedual that works best for you and the kids.
You need to become selfish and do what's best for your kids and you. Too bad for him. He left.

I know you can do it. I see your strength.

Also telling him that he can go ahead with the divorce is wrong. Don't give him the idea that it's ok to divorce and you agree. Let him do that on his own. If he brings it up reply it's his divorce and you never wanted it. If he feels you moving on it will affect him. It may or may not get him out of his fog. But it's something you can't pretend to do. It must be you really moving on and GAL.

I think about your sitch a lot. Take control of your life. It [censored] that it's happening, none of us wanted it. I won't let W run my emotions any more. It's her loss and if she wants back she will have to prove it. I just want to be stronger and at a place where I decide what's best for me. I so want you to have that too.

Take care of those kids. GAL and let H feel the consequences. He's cake eating and enjoying it.

Irish

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply IP.

I feel like a lot of the advice is about how to move on and not be upset anymore...

...This isn't really a M right now is it? I don't want to bury my problems, I want H to come home so that we can work them out. I don't understand why that's wrong.

I think this is where we all start. "I want my marriage to work." It sounds like such a noble statement. And in many ways it is. You should want your marriage to work, you should want to get through the 'for worse', you should want to remain true to your vows. Where it becomes less noble is when it interferes with other things in life you should value.

You should respect the fact that H is his own person. You don't get to control him. It takes 2 people to remain in a marriage. Your desire to remain married is noble as long as it inspires you to behave the way a married woman ought to behave. It becomes unhealthy when your desire to remain married starts leading you to focus on finding ways to control H's behavior. Accepting that he is his own person and gets to make his own choices is validating. As long as you feel the only acceptable outcome is him making the choices you want him to make you deny him as a person. If he is ever in a marriage with you again it will have to be because HE chooses it, not because you choose it for him and will him to obey.

You should also appreciate and enjoy the life that God has given you. This is quite a loss, I'm not pretending otherwise...but your appreciation for life simply cannot be conditional. My most important breakthrough was realizing that if I looked at the sky and told God that despite having my health, happy and healthy children, a good job, good friends, many gifts, and the miracle of life...if I still looked up at the sky and told him it wasn't enough, I couldn't possibly be content without the marriage I wanted when I wanted it...well, that would be so entitled that Him giving me a woman wouldn't change anything anyway.

I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

This is an example of controlling behavior. It's one thing to set boundaries so you aren't being controlled by him, abused, taken advantage of, etc. But trying to orchestrate consequences in his life to change his behavior is controlling.

from a man's point of view, do I express my emotions in safe ways to him?

This will be hard for you, but right now you don't. He isn't interested in your emotions. He doesn't want to hear them. So you can either spew at him anyway and give him more reasons to distance himself, or you can bite your tongue for a bit and avoid driving him away further. I know you have emotional needs and as a husband he isn't meeting them. I get it. He has told you that he doesn't want to be your husband.

If this changes in the future then you biting your tongue won't be the model of how the relationship would work. If the time comes when he is interested in reinvesting in a marriage with you then you'd get professional help to find ways to express your voice in constructive ways. That day may never come, and it isn't today. So if you want to scream, scream on the forum, not to him.

I don't understand how I can detach when he is round here almost every day acting perfectly fine with me.

Detaching doesn't have much to do with him. It has to do with you. For you I think two things will help.

First is, as we've said, starting to accept your H's decisions. The more you can let him be the less of your energy will be spent on him.

Second, GAL really is crucial to detachment. The point of it isn't to distract yourself. It is to meet your emotional needs elsewhere. Look- suppose you were in a desert, and you had an empty water bottle. You could keep trying to drink from the empty water bottle, but that doesn't do anything. It would just be frustrating because there is no water there. BUT- if you could find another source of water...maybe there is a juicy cactus you could break open with a rock...you could get the water you needed. Suddenly the appeal of an empty water bottle would fade. Similarly, if you reconnect with friends you haven't seen for a while, get involved in your church and help others, whatever, you will find other ways in meeting your emotional needs of being heard, understood, known, appreciated, respected, whatever. As you meet those needs your H will no longer look like the sole provider of everything you want and need in your life. He will start to look like a man. A man that you would like a M with...but not unconditionally with continuous affairs. A man that you can accept makes his own decisions and one you could live without if he so chooses. But then you'd be in a healthy spot, so he'd have more reason to believe that a M with you could work out.

I feel like things to save my marriage are too vague.

So as we've said, it's too vague because there is no magic bullet that will get someone else to recommit to a marriage. There is no love potion. My specific advice would be to:

-Spend 15 minutes a day reflecting on the things God has given you that you can be appreciative for. Celebrate what you have. Daily. Unconditionally.

-Pray for strength to let go of any grip you have over WAH. Before every encounter pray for the strength to overcome your own pain and be able to let him go on his own journey without influence from you. This would also be a 180. I would guess that H's reasons for leaving is that he felt controlled and criticized, that if he didn't do or live the way you wanted he would be in trouble, and maybe even you denied his needs as a way to manipulate him into being the H you wanted. I don't know about that, I could be wrong. You haven't said much about your past behavior or contributions in the breakdown of the M so I have no clue, I'm just guessing based on how you talk about your H now. So letting him go and not condemning him would be a big step towards a 180, and also ties in with validating the feelings he's expressed about how he can't live like that anymore.

-Work on yourself. There is more to the DB journey, but this would at least avoid driving him away further or doing more damage to a hurt marriage. From here I'd like to hear you write out much more about the dynamics in the marriage, where your behavior was unhealthy, why you acted that way (what was at the root of it), and some things you can do to grow as a person so those same things wouldn't happen again. I'm 18 months post BD and still ask myself every day "If I was in my M again could I handle myself better?" I still am not confident of that, so I keep trying to find ways to understand why I was so needy or reactive in my M, how I can mend myself, how I can meet my needs elsewhere to reduce pressure on my partner, why I feel the need to cling to my idea on how love and relationships work. I have read many R books, have really challenged myself, and I'm still scared that I don't have the tools to make an R work. Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

Basically as you write more about yourself we will have more specific advise. As long as you're writing about H all we can say is 'let him go on his journey'.

In the meantime DO keep posting, and know there isn't a limit to how much pain you can dump here or how many times you can rant to us to avoid screaming at him. We get it. All of us have felt the loss. We truly do get it. I just want you to use us as your outlet so you don't have to keep trying to drink from an empty water bottle. For me I post a lot because the forums ARE my GAL, they help me meet my emotional needs so I don't hurt as much from the loss. I just want to see you in less pain, but unlike family and friends I don't think the answer is outside of you.

[inpain]

Hi Irish

Thanks for posting. I did tell him that I don't want a D in the conversation we had, I didn't tell him it was OK to go do it. I just thought that telling him that his stated obstacle was out of the way might 'scare' him into realising that his choice is becoming real and that that might make him come home.

I don't know how I can disconnect with things how they are at the moment. I'm so confused by all the different advice and I don't know which way to turn. I feel like setting up a schedule will just push him further away and/or make him angry. Surely I don't want to be making him angry either? I don't know. I really don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here. When I was on these boards 9 years ago people seemed to celebrate their 'baby steps' and it doesn't seem that way anymore. I'm so confused. We are living a few doors away from each other, he hasn't been to a solicitor, he doesn't talk about any of it and comes and goes when he pleases. When he's here he's helpful and acts like nothing's wrong. I really don't see what my next step is. How am I supposed to distance myself when he is so ever present?

[ciluzen]

Zues says:

Work on yourself. There is more to the DB journey, but this would at least avoid driving him away further or doing more damage to a hurt marriage. From here I'd like to hear you write out much more about the dynamics in the marriage, where your behavior was unhealthy, why you acted that way (what was at the root of it), and some things you can do to grow as a person so those same things wouldn't happen again. I'm 18 months post BD and still ask myself every day "If I was in my M again could I handle myself better?" I still am not confident of that, so I keep trying to find ways to understand why I was so needy or reactive in my M, how I can mend myself, how I can meet my needs elsewhere to reduce pressure on my partner, why I feel the need to cling to my idea on how love and relationships work. I have read many R books, have really challenged myself, and I'm still scared that I don't have the tools to make an R work. Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

Inpain,

As I've said before, we are so similar...our H's are very similar. What Zues is telling you is very, very true. We cannot control this situation. We have to let go, or we will be consumed by anger, despair and fear. We will cease to function in a mentally healthy way. I know this because I let it happen...again. And I sort of thought I was strong enough to handle it.

At this point I've had my H file after what I thought were some good interactions. As much as I tried not to, I grew hopeful and had those lovely expectations of him changing his mind. After receiving my papers, I hit a lower low than ever before. I plummeted. And, because he still cares, he felt the need to call me so I begged and pleaded, defended and explained. Not as strong as I thought, eh?

I know what to do as far as DBing, but desperation made me weak. I even knew it would firm his stance, but I did it anyway.

Now I have no choice...I have to go dark. Its all I have left.

I really hope you can try to let go...don't overthink his every move or believe that his hanging around is a sign of changing his mind. Its the comfort of the familiar. My H told me through tears a few days after filing that he almost invited me to dinner (because he was hungry and lonely and tired). Comfort in the familiar. We are old habits...and they do care for us. They just don't believe we can change from the things that drove them to leave.

Let him go, IP. Its probably the only hope.

[inpain]

I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

This is an example of controlling behavior. It's one thing to set boundaries so you aren't being controlled by him, abused, taken advantage of, etc. But trying to orchestrate consequences in his life to change his behavior is controlling.

Hi Zues, thank you for your reply. For some reason it didn't show up, it wasn't there when I replied to Irish. I can see what you mean about this ^^ being controlling. I didn't see it as trying to control him, I saw it as trying to make something happen to alter this situation I find myself in. I can't cope with it the way it is. I'm still hurting just as much as day one and I have friends and family telling me to D him and I just feel like I'm running out of time. The longer we are separated the harder things would be if he did want to R. I guess I was trying to hurry things along. It has been 84 days today since he left. I don't feel any different. In fact, I think I feel more devastated now than I did on day 1.

This will be hard for you, but right now you don't. He isn't interested in your emotions. He doesn't want to hear them. So you can either spew at him anyway and give him more reasons to distance himself, or you can bite your tongue for a bit and avoid driving him away further. I know you have emotional needs and as a husband he isn't meeting them. I get it. He has told you that he doesn't want to be your husband.

If this changes in the future then you biting your tongue won't be the model of how the relationship would work. If the time comes when he is interested in reinvesting in a marriage with you then you'd get professional help to find ways to express your voice in constructive ways. That day may never come, and it isn't today. So if you want to scream, scream on the forum, not to him.

OK, I understand what you have put here, thank you. I feel like I get 'told off' here though if I vent. It seems like I have to be all happy GAL even on here, if not more so than in real life.

Detaching doesn't have much to do with him. It has to do with you. For you I think two things will help.

First is, as we've said, starting to accept your H's decisions. The more you can let him be the less of your energy will be spent on him.

OK, I kind of see what you mean here but how do I put this into practice? I'm acting happy when he comes round. I don't talk to him unless he starts a conversation (except the finance conversation we had on Friday). Yet he is chatty and starts conversations and seems to think I'm OK with it. I'm not. It is killing me. Does this mean I should go out every time he comes?

Second, GAL really is crucial to detachment. The point of it isn't to distract yourself. It is to meet your emotional needs elsewhere. Look- suppose you were in a desert, and you had an empty water bottle. You could keep trying to drink from the empty water bottle, but that doesn't do anything. It would just be frustrating because there is no water there. BUT- if you could find another source of water...maybe there is a juicy cactus you could break open with a rock...you could get the water you needed. Suddenly the appeal of an empty water bottle would fade. Similarly, if you reconnect with friends you haven't seen for a while, get involved in your church and help others, whatever, you will find other ways in meeting your emotional needs of being heard, understood, known, appreciated, respected, whatever. As you meet those needs your H will no longer look like the sole provider of everything you want and need in your life. He will start to look like a man. A man that you would like a M with...but not unconditionally with continuous affairs. A man that you can accept makes his own decisions and one you could live without if he so chooses. But then you'd be in a healthy spot, so he'd have more reason to believe that a M with you could work out.

I feel that I get the emotional needs you speak of met at work and from my family. It is the actual emotional need of being in love, feeling safe and looked after, being held, that I am not getting met. I cannot get those things anywhere else than my H. This is where I'm struggling. When I'm doing my GAL activities, which mostly involve my children, I am genuinely happy doing them. There is just this huge void where his love used to be.

Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

I don't want him to do things the way I need him to if he came back. It's just that I don't see how I can step up and be the best wife I can if he doesn't come back. Without him I'm not a wife, I'm a Mum, a single Mum.

I will do as you say and post about the M breakdown in a separate thread so it stands out. Thanks Zues.

[inpain]

Inpain,

As I've said before, we are so similar...our H's are very similar. What Zues is telling you is very, very true. We cannot control this situation. We have to let go, or we will be consumed by anger, despair and fear. We will cease to function in a mentally healthy way. I know this because I let it happen...again. And I sort of thought I was strong enough to handle it.

Hi Ciluzen, it's great to hear from you. I know what you are saying is true, I can feel myself slipping into some terrible despair too.

At this point I've had my H file after what I thought were some good interactions. As much as I tried not to, I grew hopeful and had those lovely expectations of him changing his mind. After receiving my papers, I hit a lower low than ever before. I plummeted. And, because he still cares, he felt the need to call me so I begged and pleaded, defended and explained. Not as strong as I thought, eh?

Oh Ciluzen, I'm so, so sorry. That is awful. It is so hard to go dark too, I know. I just wish I could close my eyes, wake up and it all have been a bad dream.

Let him go, IP. Its probably the only hope.

This last line has me sobbing buckets and buckets of tears. I can't do it. I love him so much and I can't stand all of these empty minutes that are turning into empty days and months.

[Rouky]

IP, I wish I was just round the corner and I'd give you a huge hug :-). I know perfectly how you feel as I also found it hard to let go. Like I was scared to be alone, a single mum, early forties and thinking who would want someone like me.

Take a piece of paper and write down all the things you do like about your Alien H, not who he used to be but who he is right now. Step back, would you go out with someone like this? My guess would be no. I'm not saying to hate him but each time you feel low look at that list and you will see that for the time being you don't want that person.

Hang in there, the light it's on its way :-)

[Zues126]

I didn't see it as trying to control him, I saw it as trying to make something happen to alter this situation I find myself in. I can't cope with it the way it is. I'm still hurting just as much as day one and I have friends and family telling me to D him and I just feel like I'm running out of time. The longer we are separated the harder things would be if he did want to R. I guess I was trying to hurry things along. It has been 84 days today since he left. I don't feel any different. In fact, I think I feel more devastated now than I did on day 1.

Again, I'm sorry you're here. It is pretty awful.

Your friends and family are telling you to D him to end the pain because they hate to see you suffering.

We on DB are telling you to let him go because we, too, hate to see you suffering.

All of us agree on one thing- continuing to desire something you can't control and can't have is causing you pain. We all agree that you should work on letting go, little by little (this is NOT an instant decision, it's a process that takes a long time).

The only difference is that we believe that the internal letting go can be done without external actions like legal paperwork or other bridge burning activity.

OK, I understand what you have put here, thank you. I feel like I get 'told off' here though if I vent. It seems like I have to be all happy GAL even on here, if not more so than in real life.

When I was a manager I told my employees it was ok to vent, but not to be negative. When they asked me the difference I defined it like this:

Venting is when external stresses exceed your coping mechanisms and you find yourself boiling over in the red zone, so you do two things...first you blow off some steam to a friend, but then you look in the mirror and ask yourself what you could do differently to either prevent the situation or handle it better in the future. In this case venting is a useful technique to get out of the red zone so you can get back in control, and it is centered around accountability.

Negativity starts the same, boiling over in the red zone and blowing off steam to a friend...but then it ends with the person pointing to the world as being the problem, and concluding they can't possibly be ok given that the world is the way it is.

Venting leads to regaining control, accepting reality, and growing. Negativity leads to cheeseless tunnels.

We're here to help make sure the blowing off steam leads to something productive so you can feel better.

OK, I kind of see what you mean here but how do I put this into practice? I'm acting happy when he comes round. I don't talk to him unless he starts a conversation (except the finance conversation we had on Friday). Yet he is chatty and starts conversations and seems to think I'm OK with it. I'm not. It is killing me. Does this mean I should go out every time he comes?

I think avoiding R talks and avoiding sharing your feelings is a good first step. I also think boundaries are appropriate. If you've been light and breezy when he is around, ending conversations first, keeping things brief, and having firm boundaries so you don't feel used, then I think you're doing it right.

It's not easy. Just remember this isn't forever. This is very short term.

I, too, am mixed about setting the schedule. To me that is a step towards formal divorce, as is child support, etc. Now, if nothing EVER changed then yes, at some point you'd have to do both of those things, and probably file at some point too. But is now really the time? I hesitate to say moving forward with any of that is right when you're still in such emotional turmoil. You're making decisions that will impact your family for life, you deserve to be at your best.

Personally I would recommend a DB coach for that. I consulted mine before taking ANY action of this nature. Not only did it keep things calm, I'll always be able to sleep at night knowing I did things within the advice of my IC, DB coach, and L. I wouldn't trust this with you alone, or your family, or even us on the board. I don't think you'll ever regret spending a little money to do this.

I feel that I get the emotional needs you speak of met at work and from my family. It is the actual emotional need of being in love, feeling safe and looked after, being held, that I am not getting met. I cannot get those things anywhere else than my H. This is where I'm struggling. When I'm doing my GAL activities, which mostly involve my children, I am genuinely happy doing them. There is just this huge void where his love used to be.

This is important. I wrote a bit about being appreciative unconditionally. Have you ever been single in your life? If so, did you walk around like you had a hole in your heart? Do you think everyone does? Or were you ok being single because you thought you just had to manage through until a white knight came along, then you had the expectation that he'd take care of you so you didn't hurt anymore, and you can't comprehend having to be your own knight? I'm not making fun of you at all, I promise.

I'm talking about two different things. Obviously there is going to be a huge loss that is an open wound right now. This is devastating. I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be.

But is there something inherently painful about being on your own? Should life hurt if you don't have someone perpetually putting their arms around you and telling you it will be ok?

I will tell you that it did for me, and I felt the same when XW left. I was FORCED to figure this one out, because I learned the hard way as well I couldn't control anyone but me. What I learned was that I could be there for myself in a way that I never was during my M. If I needed a hug, I hugged myself. I gave myself the love I wanted from XW. It sounds stupid, but this was also a huge 180 for me. Not only did it help me survive my D, it gave me the best chance of being a good H whether XW had a change of heart or someday down the road, because you can't be a great partner if you need your spouse to care-take you. It just doesn't work. They get resentful of having to care take, and it's never enough to fill the hole in your heart, and you need more, so you start trying to pressure them for more and more, until they pull away, etc. At least in my experience. Only by learning to truly take care of yourself can you do the 180 of being able to be a partner and not an emotional dependent.

I think you should spend more time talking about this. It is important. I used to feel like being ok on my own somehow diminished my love for my partner or meant I was ok with divorce. It didn't and it doesn't. It simply means that I understand that only God can fill up the hole in my heart, and only if I ask Him too. Or if I'm not feeling spiritual, only I can do it if I take responsibility for my happiness and focus on what I have to be appreciative of and be there for myself.

It's still hard for me. I am still angry that the world works the way it does. I still struggle accepting reality. Some days I read newcomer's situations and I get angry all over again, it seems so unfair and hurtful what is done. But in the end it is my choice whether I want to enjoy the life I've been given or stew in my own anger. This wasn't an overnight thing either IP, it's been a lot of hard work to get through.

I don't want him to do things the way I need him to if he came back. It's just that I don't see how I can step up and be the best wife I can if he doesn't come back. Without him I'm not a wife, I'm a Mum, a single Mum.

I mentioned some of this above. Your role as wife is part of you. Work on the whole person. If you can deal with this loss and come out the other side you'll be a stronger woman. This means you'll do better in any role you take on, and it will be obvious.

I will do as you say and post about the M breakdown in a separate thread so it stands out. Thanks Zues.

Thanks IP. If it helps know that I'd take some of the weight off your back if I could.

[inpain]

You haven't said much about your past behavior or contributions in the breakdown of the M so I have no clue.

OK, so here goes, a breakdown of our M.

We'd already been together 4 years when we married, and lived together for 3 of those 4 years. We bought our first home together the same month we married (he moved in with me originally). Our S was born 4 years later after some troubles - (2 operations and a failed IVF cycle). During the pregnancy I became ill with OCD and then had PND too. H was supportive at first, then when S was 4 months old he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be with me anymore. I just carried on looking after S and a few weeks later he said he was sorry and had just been struggling with my illness. I thought things ticked along fine after this. Then, 2 days after S's 2nd birthday H came home from work late and told me he'd stayed at work to think and he was leaving me. He left the very next morning. I cried, begged, all the usual for 2 weeks, then discovered there was OW, a W he worked with. Bought DR and immediately went dark. 2 weeks later H asked me and S out for the day. He continued to do this every week or couple of weeks. Four months later he asked me out on a date. The next day he said he wanted to come home. The whole time he had insisted the OW was just someone to talk to. I believed him and after 3 months piecing things really started to look up. We were happier than ever. 8 months later I'm pregnant with D. 2 weeks after finding out I was pregnant I found a letter in H's wallet from the OW. The wording made it clear it had been PA. H denied it all and said she was crazy and had made it up to split us up. The letter was dated 2 months after he'd come back home. I was devastated but, as I say, pregnant. I struggled throughout the pregnancy with whether or not to believe what H was saying to me. I was so confused and almost ended the M myself at 8 months pregnant but H begged me not to make a decision whilst hormonal. I agreed and when D was born I was so blissfully happy that it all seemed unimportant. Things were pretty good except every time H was on his phone I felt uneasy. Most of the time I hid it but sometimes I'd ask if he was talking to her. He always said no.

When D was 3 I discovered a birthday card and Christmas card from OW when I was tidying our wardrobes out. They were with some envelopes that some of my Christmas gifts had been delivered in, stashed at the back of the wardrobe, so I knew they were from the Christmas just gone. I asked H if he had something he wanted to tell me. He blagged his way out of it saying he'd meant to put them in the bin and had didn't know when they were from. I pointed out the post marks and he changed it to he'd just forgotten they were there and they meant nothing. Two weeks later while H was at work I found several emails to OW - H sending pictures to her of love messages or photos of our S dressed in a dressing up outfit! This led me to hunt a little further and I found the most sickening thing of my whole life. A letter on the laptop written by H to OW, 3 pages long. It implied they'd been having a PA for years. When H got home he asked why I was crying. I handed him the laptop and told him I was spending the night at my parents' house. He looked like he would collapse as I walked out the door. I returned the next day to say I wasn't sure what I wanted to do but that I wanted us to still go on the holiday we had booked for 2 weeks later. We did and he spent the whole holiday trying to make me 'come round', sending cards, telling me the letter was made up when he was drunk one night. He bought me jewellery too to try to make it up to me, which I gave him back. I insisted we see a MC. We went twice together and then she wanted to see H alone. From that point on it was just me going on my own for weeks on end, talking about my childhood. I eventually asked when we were going to get to the actual reason I was here - ie H's letter and insisted she read it. She told me if her H had written it she would have filed for D on the spot. I didn't go again and just after that D was diagnosed with an incurable condition so once again my mind was taken up with something else.

H changed his phone no at my request when it first happened but didn't like me looking at his phone. We argued a lot about this at first because I felt he should be transparent given what had gone on. He felt it was an invasion of his privacy. The first year was bad. I cried and was angry a lot. Lots of little comments about H being a liar. H's idea of working on things seemed to be to just be as nice as possible to me and wait on my hand and foot. I told him that wasn't what I needed. Told him I needed some kind of proof that he hadn't had PA because his letter and her letter made it obvious they had. At the very least I wanted him to be tested for STDs but he refused, saying he didn't need to because he hadn't had a PA. After about a year of this he began to get angry with it all and if I was ever upset he would just yell at me to make my mind up, either to stay or go. I had felt things were getting slowly better as I was going longer and longer between the times I needed to bring it up for reassurance. Wasn't good enough for H though, he wanted it never mentioning again. When he tried to hug me I would just stand there motionless. In the beginning it was because it made me want to actually be sick when he so much as put a hand on my shoulder. All I could think of was him with her and the words in their letters. I felt H didn't really do anything to make me feel better except being nice, and that wasn't what I needed. I read books about forgiveness and getting over affairs, looked at sites. Tried to get H involved in that but he wasn't interested, said it was a load of rubbish and we just needed to be nice to each other.

All the while, as well as this OW issue there has been the issue of how H is with S. It is not just me who thinks he isn't nice to him, my whole family do and friends that see how he is. I have bought books on this under the guise that "we" needed help parenting. He only read the first chapters. He would visibly try to be different on several occasions over the years but it would last a day or two then he'd be back to himself. He is over bearing and unrealistic with S. He doesn't treat him with respect - doesn't think children should be treat with respect. He just seems to have no clue whatsoever on how to be a dad. It has broken my heart to watch how he is with S. We went through so much to have him and I feel so betrayed, like H hid his true self. I have thought many times that if I'd known what sort of father H was going to be I wouldn't have had children with him. So, I have, in my H's words, gone on and on at him about this. I tried all manner of ways to get him to be softer and more involved, to no avail.

The last couple of years as S's hormones have started to kick in things have become increasingly strained. It has become more and more obvious to everyone (including S) that H treats S and D differently. She can do no wrong and S does everything wrong. This has been the main thing we have argued about. H's shifts are dreadful and he has become increasingly snappy and moody and almost impossible to live with when on night shifts. Everyone treads on eggshells.

I hadn't worked since having the children but got a job 2 years ago. I feel this sent our M spiralling too. Prior to me working we would go out for lunch or into town shopping when H had a day off in the week, while the children were at school. It was the only time we spent alone together. No-one will have children over night due to D's condition so we hardly ever went out. H now says that this is because he hasn't wanted to go out with me, because he doesn't like me and hasn't wanted to be with me for a long time. Me working has made me very stressed out. I am working full time, having the children on my own evenings and weekends a lot of the time due to H's shifts and trying to run the house too. I became snappy and irritable.

H did help with housework at first when I started working but then the help waned. His Mum died this time last year and from then on I think he has been depressed. He doesn't believe in depression though, thinks it's a load of rubbish and people should just pull themselves together. He hasn't slept properly since she died, stopped doing anything to help round the house and has pretty much worked, slept or sat in his chair looking at things on the internet. Several times I voiced that I was concerned and worried about him and that he seemed depressed. He said I was talking rubbish. Things seemed to improve in August when we went on holiday. We had a fabulous time and became much closer physically than we had been in a very long time. I was elated - I finally thought things were getting back on track. As soon as we got home, however and he started back on shift he became snappy again and so did I. About a month after the holiday he told me ILYBNILWY. In view of the holiday I was shocked rigid and very confused. He said he wanted to see if we could get on so he could decide whether to leave or not. A week later he had to go on a course for 4 weeks. I have never seen anyone so tired and drained at the end of each day as my H was on this course. I did all the wrong things in this time. I was like a rabbit in the headlights, panicking and asking for reassurances that H was going to stay. He said he couldn't promise anything and just wanted to see how we got on. We had a couple of lovely weekends during this time where we went out as a family and had a great time. H was hugging and kissing like nothing was wrong right up to the weekend before he left.

We had a huge row the weekend he left. I had wanted reassurance and when he refused I told him if he didn't love me I wanted him to leave. So he did. The next day he came back to tell the children he was leaving. He told me that I thought I was so clever telling him to leave and I'd got what I deserved. A couple of weeks after he left I came back on here so the rest is on here.

So, I've struggled to forgive H's EA/PA and have punished H for the hurt he caused. I've criticized him because of his parenting. This is a tough one though because everyone who really knows us agrees that there is no way I could just let his parenting style go unchecked. I'm not sure what I could have done differently there. I've tried to model a better parenting style. I've tried books, and then when they haven't worked I've just said it. I've tried heartfelt letters telling him how upset it makes me to see him parent the way he does. I haven't been pleasant to live with, I can see that. I needed something, some reassurance. I don't even know. It has all just been such a mess for so long.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain (((((HUGS)))))

After reading your story on your relationship, I'm going to refrain from judging your H. All I will say is that he has to grow up and be a man to his W and a better father to his children.

I just want to tell you that you did nothing wrong and you tried every thing you possibly could and more.
You are an amazing woman and mother that so many men would love to have you as a life partner. You have been put through a lot. A lot more than many.

Hopefully your H will come out of this a more mature person. He has a long way to go.

Your criticizing his parental skills and not forgiving his PA's is normal. He did not do his job is reassuring you enough for you to trust him. Your gut feeling always made you feel like he was hiding something. You caught him on several occasions so your gut was right.You need to trust it. And he did not improve his parenting. Don't beat yourself up for his faults.

I also swept the PA affair under the rug 10 years ago. We never dealt with it and it was a thorn in my side. I never truly trusted my W. It made me jealous because i was insecure. Is that my fault. No. W did this .. she needed to rebuild that trust and prove it wouldn't happen again. My gut this time said red flag .. red flag.. guess what. OM and PA big time.

Do I blame myself. no . Do i regret confronting her and it eventually made her run. No.

its all on them, we are not to blame.

You have to not blame yourself for your H. It's all him.
You couldn't of done anything to help him. He didn't want to be helped or improve.

I hope you reread what you just wrote because you blame yourself a lot when you should be looking at H and asking yourself what has H done to fix his issues.

take care
Irish

[Rouky]

Hi Inpain, just checking how you are today.

[inpain]

Hi Rouky, thank you so much for checking on me! I don't know what went on yesterday with posting but yours and Zues' posts weren't there when I typed mine but now they are!?!?! I love your idea of writing down what I actually like about alien H. I just tried to do that and actually could only think of one thing I like about him right now . That's pretty tough to realise!

You also wrote exactly how I feel too. I'm so scared about being a single Mum in my early forties. I feel like this is it for me 'love' wise. I feel like I will be alone now (romantically) for the rest of my life. It makes me so sad. That's the thing about someone D you. It's not just the now, it's the future that was fantasised about in your head. The imaginations of looking after grandchildren, our children's wedding days, holidays and cruises together once the children have left home. It is all gone.

[inpain]

Hi Zues, thanks again for another wonderful post, they are always so helpful, I really appreciate it!

I think avoiding R talks and avoiding sharing your feelings is a good first step. I also think boundaries are appropriate. If you've been light and breezy when he is around, ending conversations first, keeping things brief, and having firm boundaries so you don't feel used, then I think you're doing it right.

Thanks Zues, it is good to have my actions 'checked out' by someone else and I'm relieved you think I'm doing the right thing. It is so difficult to decide what to do.

I, too, am mixed about setting the schedule. To me that is a step towards formal divorce, as is child support, etc. Now, if nothing EVER changed then yes, at some point you'd have to do both of those things, and probably file at some point too. But is now really the time? I hesitate to say moving forward with any of that is right when you're still in such emotional turmoil. You're making decisions that will impact your family for life, you deserve to be at your best.

I think you're right here, as painful as it is for me to have him just calling whenever he likes, at least it is a 'stand off' position and not heading to D like fixed arrangements would be. Another win win is that I know he isn't anywhere else with someone else (every cloud and all that!).

Personally I would recommend a DB coach for that. I consulted mine before taking ANY action of this nature. Not only did it keep things calm, I'll always be able to sleep at night knowing I did things within the advice of my IC, DB coach, and L. I wouldn't trust this with you alone, or your family, or even us on the board. I don't think you'll ever regret spending a little money to do this.

I'd really love to be able to get the advice of a DB coach but I really don't think I could afford it because on top of the cost of the coaching I would have international fees to pay. Wish it wasn't the case as I'm sure it would really help me. I'm so lost when it comes to all this!

This is important. I wrote a bit about being appreciative unconditionally. Have you ever been single in your life? If so, did you walk around like you had a hole in your heart? Do you think everyone does? Or were you ok being single because you thought you just had to manage through until a white knight came along, then you had the expectation that he'd take care of you so you didn't hurt anymore, and you can't comprehend having to be your own knight? I'm not making fun of you at all, I promise.

I have been single yes, and I hated it. I don't know why. I have asked myself this many times. I feel very alone when I'm on my own, I know that much, but I don't know why.

Thanks IP. If it helps know that I'd take some of the weight off your back if I could.

Thanks so much Zues, it does help to know there are such caring people on here who not only know how I feel but care too.

[inpain]

Hi Inpain (((((HUGS)))))

After reading your story on your relationship, I'm going to refrain from judging your H. All I will say is that he has to grow up and be a man to his W and a better father to his children.

I just want to tell you that you did nothing wrong and you tried every thing you possibly could and more.
You are an amazing woman and mother that so many men would love to have you as a life partner. You have been put through a lot. A lot more than many.

Hopefully your H will come out of this a more mature person. He has a long way to go.

Hi Irish, thank you so much for your post. I can't tell you what it means to read this ^^. My H has manipulated me for so long that I actually believe him when he tells me it is all my fault for not getting over his EA/PA. Then I hear other people's opinions and I think maybe I'm not crazy after all!

You have to not blame yourself for your H. It's all him.
You couldn't of done anything to help him. He didn't want to be helped or improve.

I think I need to read this every day to remind myself. Nobody has ever put it like that before but it is so right. He didn't want to be helped or improve. Still doesn't.

I hope you reread what you just wrote because you blame yourself a lot when you should be looking at H and asking yourself what has H done to fix his issues.

When I reread it it actually left me wondering why on earth I have put up with all of this!? The worrying/sad thing is that H is adamant he did everything he could to fix his mistakes. He didn't even do half the things I know I would have done if it had been me that cheated. I'd have been moving heaven and earth every day until I'd earned back the trust I'd broken, forever. I do wonder why he wasn't/isn't as dedicated.

[Zues126]

Thanks for your post on my thread. Its 11 pages and I don't have time to start a new thread, so I'll say thanks here.

Yes, OM being part of the new family isn't thrilling...but I've had 18 months to get to this point, and OM#1-5 got me used to the idea. Better than having S11 tell me about the stranger that sleeps over in mom's room.

Honestly I'm at the point where I'm really not threatened in any way. I'm the kids dad, nothing will change that. I know who I am as a person, and I'm not replaceable. I HOPE that OM turns out to be a rockstar and he and XW have a great life, and that he is a positive influence on my children. I'm not hoping XW comes back to me and it would be nice if things worked out for her. I'm skeptical, because if she gave up on the father of her kids and her husband, I don't know how she'll navigate through bigger challenges with someone else down the road, but maybe she'll grow by then, and in any case if relationships these days are nothing more than 5-10 year stretches of shared time then I hope she gets what she wants from it.

As for you...I haven't had a chance to digest all of this yet. One thing I hope is that you've been reading Rain's last thread. It is epic and something that has been on my mind since you mentioned lack of success stories. Rain can't force WAH to not be a cheating scumbag, but if you look at how she handled herself compared to what she's gone through over the past few years she looks like a success to me. Please check it out and I'll catch up soon.

[Rain75]

I hope is that you've been reading Rain's last thread. It is epic. Rain can't force WAH to not be a cheating scumbag, but if you look at how she handled herself compared to what she's gone through over the past few years she looks like a success to me. Please check it out and I'll catch up soon.

Zues..with you saying its epic and Azzork calling it a saga, me thinks a book is in order of my "epic saga"

Seriously though, thanks. Everyone seems to think I handled it well. I'm not so sure though.

Inpain, ugh. First I am so sorry for what you are going through. I can hear and feel your fear at losing your H and M when you write. I feel like that too.

There are so many similarities between your M, Anna's M and my R. We sure do know how to punish these men don't we? LOL I myself am quite the expert. I can be vicious with my words to him, and I have been. I'm not proud of it and it's cost me a lot as you've read.

I think the advice you've gotten is spot on and really may be your best shot. Irish gave you a few real life examples of couples that have gone through what we are going through.

There are many. If you want success stories from the board to see what other DBers did there are a few. Mozza has them on his thread. In case you haven't seen that thread I'll post it for you.

I haven't read them all but TO324s thread may be a good place to start since her situation is somewhat similar. An A with 18 y.o. ow, 2 small children, H moved out, her father was very involved (lived with her).

Mozzas thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2646684&page=1

I wish I could do more than tell you that I know the pain and the confusion and the fear. Damn that fear!

((((Inpain)))))

We can do this girl. We have to get some GAL activites and some 180s in place to help us DETACH!

Easy peasy lemon squeezy

[inpain]

Thanks for posting Zues, I admire how you are able to see the situation with the OM.

Look forward to hearing what you think about the great big novel I posted. I've checked out Rain's post and you're right, she handled it brilliantly!

[inpain]

Inpain, ugh. First I am so sorry for what you are going through. I can hear and feel your fear at losing your H and M when you write. I feel like that too.

There are so many similarities between your M, Anna's M and my R. We sure do know how to punish these men don't we? LOL I myself am quite the expert. I can be vicious with my words to him, and I have been. I'm not proud of it and it's cost me a lot as you've read.

I think the advice you've gotten is spot on and really may be your best shot. Irish gave you a few real life examples of couples that have gone through what we are going through.

Hi Rain, thanks for posting. You're right, I am very fearful of this whole thing like you. I think I need to go back and read all the posts, I feel like I'm confused as to what the advice actually is! Maybe I need to start journalling it. I just feel like I'm thrashing about in deep water.

We can do this girl. We have to get some GAL activites and some 180s in place to help us DETACH!

Easy peasy lemon squeezy

I still need to figure out what my 180s should be.

[inpain]

Grrr no edit button! Thanks for the links Rain, I'll start reading

[Rain75]

Grrr no edit button! Thanks for the links Rain, I'll start reading

You are most welcome. And good luck. It will take you a while. Don't forget about us, I get engrossed in the older threads. Mostly because they read like a novel with twists and turns...I have to remind myself to check on my girls and even check my own thread when I'm in that zone.

And 180s for me aren't that hard to pinpoint, just to implement.

See ya at ladies night!

[inpain]

The last few days has left me feeling very despondent about my situation and where it's heading.

Sunday H was a no show again, despite telling the kids he'd be round here all day. I let S11 call him at 6:30pm to ask if he was coming and H told him he would text me soon. 7:45pm he texts me to say he's not coming as he felt ill, sorry. So, the kids went to bed upset again.

Monday he was here bright and early to take D to school and was his usual chatty self while I dashed around doing the whole morning routine. He also picked D up from school so was there when I got home from work. D has an activity on a Monday evening so I dashed around between taking her, picking her up and cooking tea. H just sat around looking at his phone and didn't even offer to help in any way. S asked him to stay for tea, which he did and then left immediately after. A few hours later he text me to let me know the tea had given him heartburn! I text back to say sorry about that and he replied again saying he hoped I slept well. I thought maybe this was a baby step.

Today he came round at around 6:30pm just as I was serving tea. We almost argued as he sat telling S he couldn't have a dessert as he hadn't finished his tea, even though I'd allowed D to have one when she hadn't finished (she'd eaten enough for me to feel she could have a dessert and so had S). I really had to bite my tongue and I really thought things might blow up. H looked so annoyed and kept throwing S filthy looks about it. H came upstairs with us at the kid's bedtime and sat while I was reading a story to D. In the middle of it he said, "I'm going to get going IP darling." My heart leaped. He called me darling! He hasn't done that since he left. A baby step? But now I'm telling myself to not be so ridiculous, it was most likely a slip of the tongue from familiarity at calling me that for 19 years. He kissed the kids goodbye as I carried on reading and D pointed to me and motioned to him to give me a kiss too. It was so awkward. I pretended I hadn't noticed her doing it but she kept on with it and I saw H do a little shake of his head no. Who am I kidding? He comes round to see them, not me, if we didn't have kids I wouldn't have seen him for dust. I really don't feel like there is any point or any hope. His love for me is gone, he has told me that repeatedly. Every time he comes round my heart breaks a little more.

[isittoolate]

IP - I know he DB coach is expensive but just a short note to say they can set up the call via Skype and there are no call fees.. - also the £/$ rate is good at the mo. x

[inpain]

Hi isittoolate, thank you, I didn't know that. I'm a bit of a technology novice. There are really no fees with Skype? Not even from your internet provider?

[Rouky]

Not from your provider. I have a subscription to call Europe that only costs me £13 for 3 months. So it well worth to have a try. I'm 100% there with you regarding him coming to see kids, that's why I decided to take the to see him. Seeing him coming into what was our house was hurting like hell and it was mostly preventing me from healing!!

I'm not 100% happy but I longer wake up in the morning feeling sorry for myself or thinking of him. Like you my H is done and enjoying his life with OW. I think they are well match as both don't have values regarding wedding vows, and now it's find by me. At least I can hold my head high that I didn't disrespect my H by having an A. If he is happy, then I wish him all the best. Everyone deserves to be happy LBS as well as WAH/ WH. If it's not with me a least I'd have had some years of happiness and two beautiful kids out of it.

I'm starting to behave as if and most importantly I believe that I'll be fine in the end.

Hang in there IP and listen to your inner voice.
Take care and loads of hugs xxxx

[inpain]

Yes I know that pain Rouky. He left here two hours ago and I am still crying. I just want one small sign that there might be a chance. Just once.

My inner voice is telling me to call H and tell him how much I love him and miss him right now. So I'm trying hard not to listen to it and sitting here crying and reading posts instead.

[inpain]

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2649517&#Post2649517