last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...878#Post2625878EA is confirmed ....don't ask how but I have seen FB messenger stuff and I know they also text and phone each other.
Advice needed.
Do I confront her...she will want to know how I know...I got access to her FB?
Do I kick her out of MBR?
Do I confront OM?
Help needed.
Sorry mate. Really sorry.
Read Sandi2's threads on the WW. All the advice you need is in there.
Again. Sorry. I feel your pain.
Peace
Dang, Isit! I know the feeling on the EA stuff. I wouldn't confront until you have sufficient proof - as in screenshots, etc., that are all saved somewhere. Get as much as you can, because as others will attest - they will go underground, fast. I wouldn't necessarily tell her how you found out, just that you know. But get as much as you can, first.
Sandi will give you some excellent advice on what to do. Take it to heart - it took me way too long to realize what she was saying.
As far as the OM is concerned, don't do it. I don't recall the poster who said it on here, but that will put your spouse in the position of defending the affair partner. Not a good idea - what good would it do?
So what did it say? Sorry man. It really [censored]. We're you jealous before? In my case I was real passive previously so me going batshit crazy was a good 180.
On the previous thread you spoke about your pessimism. IMHO THAT should be a 180. Running is good GAL but "seeing" things differently is a 180. Invite the friends-ABSOLUTELY should be your answer. Go find the lost item? ABSOLUTELY you're confident you'll find it.
When a woman has to defend her man from another, he's diminished as a man ultimately. Not saying it's a good idea, just that the logic is a bit off.
I accessed the account through a joint email account and reset her password.
I have a few screenshots but she has changed the password now and I doubt I will be able to access again as I think she has set higher security level.
They were mocking me through some exchanges, saying how OM was now my FB friend.
I don't think they are PA , and no sexting. He is living with a partner and has a D11, I can use it as leverage.
I want to kick her out of MBR
WAIT - DO NOT CONFRONT UNTIL YOU HAVE A PLAN.
Is it the guy? The dim one?
It's so ironic because you posted on another thread calling my "wonky" or whatever so I thought I'd read through your thread this morning and try to help you.
I was waiting for you to start a new thread to tell you.
Based upon my experience with lots of situations, I am pretty sure you wife is having an affair. It's probably more a lot more than a EA and has probably been going on since 2012. All the classic nuanced signs are there. In particular, I noticed how she was always keep tabs on your work schedule and when you'd be leaving - coming and going. Calling you an hour after you left (to double check you were actually on your way) and being all happy the day you were going into London for a couple nights. I also took note that she was upset when you shortened one work trip a night (which obviously messed with her plans with an OM).
I was going to tell you that and BEG you to get a voice activated recording device and hide it in her car just to rule out that all your marital problems aren't simply (mostly) due to the fact there is another man in your marriage.
Now, reading this thread and your discovery it is all the more important for you to think rationally right now and develop a plan.
First - Don't confront until you have all the facts. There is a debate on DB about snooping but I don't think this is the unhealthy kind of obsessive snooping that MWD is talking about. You need to, BEFORE your wife catches on to the fact you are really suspicious and spying on her thoroughly, step up your snooping game by buying a voice activated voice recorder and hiding it in her car to capture her cell phone conversations with OM (or her best girlfriend that knows the whole story). The reason this is important is that in order to save your marriage and family (or your sanity should you divorce) is by YOU getting all the pertinent facts up front. You can't HOPE she'll tell you the truth and if you confront without the facts - she'll just lie and they will take everything underground. The best way to get the FULL truth is get it yourself NOW.
2. The accumulate your evidence and sit down with your wife and confront her with all of it at once. You have to overcome the wall of denial you are about to face (especially if you confront with little evidence - because then it becomes all about you snooping on her and her "friend" and this is why she must divorce you). You need to break it down and put all the truth out there at once.
*sidenote - use the recording to get facts but NEVER mention the recording device. It's legal in my state but you're in a different country and I have no idea if you could get in trouble for such. Being a religious zealot and all (lol), neither my wife and I believe there is total privacy in marriage. Snooping to get the truth about YOUR life is perfectly fine AND it might give you the opportunity to actually SAVE your wife from continuing to make the biggest mistake of her life.
3. Are you sure your wife doesn't know about your posting here on DB. If she's reading along you are so busted already. Get Cadet to hide this thread and hope she hasn't seen it yet.
Be back later for more
I accessed the account through a joint email account and reset her password.
I have a few screenshots but she has changed the password now and I doubt I will be able to access again as I think she has set higher security level.
They were mocking me through some exchanges, saying how OM was now my FB friend.
I don't think they are PA , and no sexting. He is living with a partner and has a D11, I can use it as leverage.
I want to kick her out of MBR
If she asks you if you did this....deny it. Don't give away that you are suspicious. Let them try to figure out what happened to her account while being relieved that it wasn't you.
As far as kicking her out of MBR...that's just a silly battle right now. You need to quickly realize you are in a war for your family. Let the battle rest for now and focus on planing to win the war.
I accessed the account through a joint email account and reset her password.
Why did you do that? That just let her know to go underground.
I don't think they are PA , and no sexting. He is living with a partner and has a D11, I can use it as leverage.
Does a PA have to have sexting? Have they met in person? I have a hard time believing that if two are in meeting distance that they would just remain in a PA. Others may know more, though.
I want to kick her out of MBR
That would be the logical thing to do, but...
Another reason you need a plan is if you charge in there today with just a couple Facebook posts (screenshots) only they will just say they suspected you were watching and simply pretending hoping to bust you snooping on them.
Play dumb - accept her explanation, apologize and promise to never try to snoop on her ever again.
Then -ASAP go an get the recording device and snoop SMARTER.
This is war. Your kids deserve your best effort and busting up this affair the right way give them the best chance of having their mom and dad work things out. You've had 3 years of a stalemate and it's no wonder....there was a fox in your henhouse and your hen is completely fixated on the fox. There is no "working on your marriage", reconciliation or "piecing" when a third party interloper remains involved in any way.
Also, be very careful. Many a wayward wife has used these confrontations to accuse the betrayed spouse of abuse. She could call the cops on you and try to get you removed from the home AND a domestic charge against you (giving her advantage when it comes to custody of the children and everything else in a divorce case).
Again....throwing her out of the MBR isn't the first priority right now.
Keep your wits about you.
DISCLAIMER. I only googled this 5 minutes ago. I'd verify this but listening devices are legal in the UK IF it's a public place or your own home. I don't think your W's car falls into that category but I'm not an expert.
And people miss type their passwords all the time if you get my drift.
DISCLAIMER. I only googled this 5 minutes ago. I'd verify this but listening devices are legal in the UK IF it's a public place or your own home. I don't think your W's car falls into that category but I'm not an expert.
And people miss type their passwords all the time if you get my drift.
Quick thinking NDY.
Maybe the car is titled in his name?
Plus, what listening device? Buy it with cash and hide the receipt (you can usually return the device once it's done it's job....it's not healthy to keep snooping and you are more likely to get caught the longer you do it and it'll then become all about what a controlling, emotionally abusive, suspicious spouse you are - so return the device and get your cash back within the terms of the store you bought it from).
Practice with the device but when it's hidden it should not have your voice on it all all. If she finds it, it'll be hard to claim it wasn't you if the device has your voice on it. It's so easy to accidentally test it and say "HI" or "testing 1, 2 3". Delete any test recordings you make when practicing with it. This way you can deny it's yours. Maybe it was OM. Maybe it was your wife trying to set you up as a controlling overly suspicious snooper. Whatever, but it wasn't you.
BTW - I'm over a decade recovered. My wife is THRILLED with everything I did to save her and our family. Snooping is what's best for her too because she's been living this lie for a long time. It's like pulling off the band-aid...it'll be a relief to her to some extent (though that won't be obvious for a long time).
Thanks all for the advice.
I am away from home but actually returned tonight close to my home town to do my GAL activity - salsa dancing. W thinks I am 100 miles further away.
I had to reset her FB password using a joint acct so I could access it. She realised something was up about 30 mins later. And reset it again on her smartphone.
She has subsequently rung me twice ( voicemail 1st time and then text then another call) . I was doing salsa so didn't answer.
She is checking my temperature.
I played it cool , no mention of OM ,, she talked about kids, let me speak to kids then talked about her work. I played it straight as a die.
So I'll gather evidence.
The FB messages I will analyse.
I am not home until Friday.
Hello,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
You need to be so careful with your new information. Don't do anything at this point. It may feel like there is much to be gained by exposing the details, but resist that urge.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks all for the advice.
I am away from home but actually returned tonight close to my home town to do my GAL activity - salsa dancing. W thinks I am 100 miles further away.
I had to reset her FB password using a joint acct so I could access it. She realised something was up about 30 mins later. And reset it again on her smartphone.
She has subsequently rung me twice ( voicemail 1st time and then text then another call) . I was doing salsa so didn't answer.
She is checking my temperature.
I played it cool , no mention of OM ,, she talked about kids, let me speak to kids then talked about her work. I played it straight as a die.
So I'll gather evidence.
The FB messages I will analyse.
I am not home until Friday.
Not home until Friday. I'd have a lot of trouble sitting and waiting all week to even start to gather good intelligence.
If you have the means - I'd suggest calling a Private Investigator. With you out of town is when she is likely meeting up with OM. My guess he is either a guy from work OR a guy from the gym. When you are out of town he probably sneaks into your house for a couple hours after your kids go to bed. A private eye could stake out your house tonight and see if anyone comes over. While he/she is at it they could try to get a GPS tracking device on your wife's car. If you know who OM is try to get a tracking device on his car too. Amazingly, this isn't illegal in my state as long as they place the device on the car in a public area (they can't break into someone's garage and put it on). You being out of town is perfect cover. In the alternative, sneak back a day early yourself and stake it out yourself. It shouldn't be long after the boys go to bed that OM sneaks over...fools around and then heads home to his girlfriend.
Then...hide the recording device in her car before you have your confrontation with her whereby you tell her the gig is up and it's time to stop her affair or leave herself. She probably won't and you'll be stuck in a position like NYD for awhile sharing a home WHILE she remains wayward but maybe not. Like I said before, some way wards are relieved it's finally over. Living a lie is exhausting and anxiety laden. Anyway - you hide the device in her car before you confront because it is very typical that the wayward immediately after confrontation needs to take off for a drive so they can talk to their paramour about coordinating their stories and trying to figure out how to put the whole thing back in a box. It's a great conversation to snoop on because it tells you just about everything and USUALLY the OM freaks out in fear you are going to call his wife (or girlfriend in this case) and he starts the process of throwing the wayward wife under the bus by begging her to protect him and the secret from his girlfriend. This is usually NOT the response the wayward wife wants. She thinks and feels that she is his 1st priority and it's the first realization that she was really just a piece of side action to OM and he's a really good liar.
After that - no more snooping. GAL and detach. Read the Last Resort Technique whereby unless she ends her affair...you don't want anything to do with her. As hard as it is (I've been there) maintain your dignity. Do not yell or scream at her. Be a gentleman and remain calm and rational. Indicate that she has destroyed you and how devastated you are but that you are going to be OK...it's her that you are worried about (because really way wards don't fair well - depression and suicide are common). She is the mother of your children and IF YOU WANT TO (divorce is a legitimate option and no one would blame you if you filed and never looked back) but if you want to save this marriage - if she ends her affair you might actually FINALLY have a chance.
Very sorry for the day you've had. It's not like you are getting any real work done this week anyway - might as well call in sick and then go stake out your house. If nothing happens - just walk in real late acting sick as a dog and acting like you have the runs and vomiting. Race in - checking if OM is there but then run to the bathroom and pretend to be sick. Then go to bed. At some point, before or after you enter - try to hide the device in her car and then sleep or fake sleep until she leaves in the morning (with your recording device all set up ready to catch her). Retrieve it the next day and you should have enough "proof". Do understand that she KNOWS she's having an affair so it's not like the proof has to be enough to convince her....you just need enough to prove to her that you actually know the full truth (and/or be convincing that you know it all) such that you overcome the barrier whereupon she just can't keep denying it. The recording device in her car AFTER you confront should then tell you what her plans and intentions are AFTER you bust her.
Who is OM? What do you know about him? Once you finish having your revelation conversation with your wife I would strongly encourage you to let his girlfriend and baby mama know about the affair. Like you, she deserves to know the absolute truth about her life as well. Because they are not married (which is a big reason they both carry this affair on secretly for so long) his girlfriend is probably really in the driver's seat regarding custody. He wants to keep his family intact for his kid and your wife hoped to do the same for hers so they just cheat secretly for a long time. Once his girlfriend finds out - the most likely outcome (but not always) is that she whips her boyfriend back into line and gives him the choice of leaving or staying and never speaking to your wife again. Most OM's choose the later and try to save their primary relationships. There are no guarantees but the alternative (they keep dating and OM gets to cheat on his girlfriend behind her back while you know the truth - until some day far far far in the future someone makes a choice and decides to divorce or not is just unbearable. If your wife is eventually going to divorce you to be with OM - better now that another year or two of what you've been enduring already. Wouldn't you agree?
I know you claim to be spiritual but not that religious but did you know that the words "fear not" or "do not be afraid" appear over a 100 times in the Bible? God doesn't want you to be fearful. Adultery is evil. It's Satan attacking your family. You don't have to believe me - take a look around you. Everyone is miserable. Your kids can even sense it. Satan is relishing the victory of his demons over your family. If you never been a prayerful man...now might be the time to start. Google "a hedge of protection", "hedge of thorns" and "the armor of God" for a start.
OK I've bought the voice recorder and will set it up at the weekend.
Ive calmed down a bit and recognise this stuff for what it is 'an EA'.
I've analysed the FB messenger transcripts (3 screenshots).
He is a lot more into her than she is into him.
Caveat: First there is not a lot of FB messenger conversation as I think they only use FB messenger when he has broken/lost his phone. So most of their stuff is by text or phone call. I know she regularly rings him when she is driving home.
It only starts on 2nd Nov and there is a big gap from 10th - 18th.
W doesnt say 'ILY, 'cant wait to see you' 'shall we meet...' or anything about meeting up. No endearments though She does sign off two( out of 10) replies with 'xx' but most women do that. I have female friends who do it to me.
The most incriminating sentence from W is 'Missing You (name) ...and a teary emoticon (no kisses).... that was last night FFS!!
On the other hand he says 'you are a very funny and beautiful lady and I love you loads' ....would love to know what his partner would think of that..wanker.
He also mocks me, about how he has friended me on FB and it takes the pressure off W
I don't think there is a PA, but I will snoop some more.
W knows that someone has hacked her account - how?? she changed the password 30 mins after I had changed it.
She then rang me twice and texted me and later tagged me in a FB post.
What do I do? I will read Sandi2s WW threads again and plan.
GB - I know the OM vaguely over the last 6 years as his D went to the same school as my S11.
Since W told me about him being a 'good friend' about 4 weeks ago I have met him twice and he asked via FB to be my 'friend'.
If I confront her she will say I am paranoid, 'he is just a good friend' 'ok I flirt with him a bit so what?? I flirt with lots of men' etc
Deflect and deny.
I am reading Sandi2s thread but initially it concerns the sitch where the A is out in the open and W cant deny.
How do I confront her without showing I hacked her FB messenger?
I know how hopeful you are that there isn't more but your situation the last three years makes so much more sense IF she's been cheating than if she's just being wish washy. The reason the whole ILYBNILWY speech is so typical for wayward women is predicated on the fact that generally women only love one man at a time and if it ain't you (especially after spending months trying to reconnect with her) then it's someone else.
How long has this guy been around?
If they have been "friends" for a long time - I'd suspect it was him all along
If they are new "friends" then I'd suspect there was someone else three years ago that triggered this cascading descent in your marriage and now she's with a different guy.
Sorry. That's enough speculation. You'll know the truth soon enough. Be patient. Sometimes it takes a few days. You can do a few things to spur the need for them to communicate (just in case they get suspicious that you are suspicious and they back off communicating for a few days. Maybe change your plans and tell her you need to be gone all next week or vice versa. Also, it is very likely you'll get the best details from a conversation between her and her girlfriend or sister "in the know" rather than some cryptic conversation between her and OM. If this is a new OM; hopefully you'll be able to get any and all details of any and all past affairs (if any). The key is getting ALL the truth whatever it may be and then going from there.
Again - I am truly sorry. From everything I've read on your thread you have been running in circles and doing everything you could to save your marriage and family. You just didn't know you had a wayward partner that truly wasn't trying at all. Honesty is the foundation of all relationships....without it the structure above will only sink. You weren't perfect but nobody is. If this were the time to give you recommendations (and I say this now because I doubt I'll be around much), it would be that you need to find a job that serves your marriage and family first. You can't be spending so many nights apart. Either quit and find something local or find a way to work WITH your wife. You just can't rebuild a loving marriage of extraordinary care if you don't see each other literally every day.
GB - I know the OM vaguely over the last 6 years as his D went to the same school as my S11.
Since W told me about him being a 'good friend' about 4 weeks ago I have met him twice and he asked via FB to be my 'friend'.
If I confront her she will say I am paranoid, 'he is just a good friend' 'ok I flirt with him a bit so what?? I flirt with lots of men' etc
Deflect and deny.
I am reading Sandi2s thread but initially it concerns the sitch where the A is out in the open and W cant deny.
How do I confront her without showing I hacked her FB messenger?
If you are patient the results of your investigation will usually lead you to documentable proof and the others you can kind of fudge.
For example, if you listen to a conversation she has with OM or her friend/sister in her car this weekend but you don't bring it up for another week after that, she won't necessarily remember where exactly she had that specific conversation. You could just say you put a cup up against the wall and listened through the wall while she was talking to someone in the bathroom. When you are in the middle of confronting, they are more concerned with what you actually know and whether they can deny it versus how and when you actually got the information. Another good excuse is to indicate you hired a private investigator and they got the information. You could even send yourself some emails from a fake email address typing out the exact conversation that you recorded. Their first instinct is that you or a PI hacked their phone. Usually a recorder isn't the first suspect and if you are judicious with what you share and smart about it they won't suspect a recording device at all.
Subterfuge - the recordings might indicate that they spent time together at XYZ restaurant or bar. Your wife's Spa Trip (I wonder if her sister really went) or the time she went shopping with the girls. Once you discover it was a lie you can then backtrack and send yourself an email from a anonymous friend that sent you an email indicating the he/she saw you and OM there and thought you should be aware. You said his kid goes to the same school - send a real fake letter to yourself in the mail, stamped and everything from an anonymous mother at the school that was herself a betrayed wife and saw your wife and OM acting inappropriately at school and she thought you should know that this person apologetically wanted you to know your wife was obviously (to her) cheating with this guy. The bonus of the anonymous tip off is that then the two of them don't know who at school is watching them and reporting back to you. Further...if one person knows...surely more do. It makes them paranoid and less concerned about how you really are getting your intel.
Again....she KNOWS she is cheating so the only thing you really have to sell is that she can't lie to you anymore because she's completely busted and you know everything.
Unfortunately, THEN is when you are more likely than not going to have a situation where she refuses to end it with the OM. She loves him and thinks he's her soulmate right now. OM is the one most likely to end it (especially after you tell his girlfriend baby mama). Then you'll be in the situations Sandi's threads talk about (though I don't like those threads at all - Sandi and I don't really see eye to eye - which is OK). You'll have a decision to make too - do you stick it out and continue to fight for your marriage/family, do you decide you've been abused enough and file for divorce yourself on the grounds of adultery (she might come begging back anyway) OR do you ask her to separate/leave, go dark and maybe try the last resort technique (GAL - detach 100% and begin your personally recovery with a firm boundary that you MAY be willing to recover with her if and only if she ends her affair FIRST and then commits to a marital recovery plan).
Also - IF you recover - you are going to need to move. Recovery requires NO CONTACT WITH OM FOR LIFE. Your son can't stay classmates with OM's son. Switching schools may be enough but moving would be best. Maybe move back to London where you and your wife first built the foundation the love in your relationship. As a bonus, you'll be close enough to work to be home every night and no more 2 hour commute.
She has been his friend for 6 months. At least that Is what she told me a few weeks ago.
NB he is a low skilled manual labourer - not physically attractive - obese with bipolar - and recently joined fat club.
She is a highly skilled medical professional - beautiful and slim
Another day beckons: not much sleep last night, maybe 2 hours.
A mixture of anger, hurt, betrayal, and resentment at this shitstorm.
I doubt W will contact me today. I think her call to me last night reassured her that the hack wasn't me.
There is no way I can hack it again so I've bought the recorder. I think it will confirm there is no PA , but a definite EA , with flirting, etc. He is really into W and his words would be very damaging if it got back to his partner. It's no surprise that W and OM's partner are not FB friends.
The evidence I have is not wholly damning but strong enough to confront and even threaten to show to OM's partner and others like w's mum and sister.
I will not do that yet, but hold it in reserve.
If I confront her it will be along the lines of:
'Are you comfortable showing me all your texts and FB messages with OM?'
If she isn't comfortable she is damning herself.
Today until Friday I will just do NC until my bedtime phone call to the kids. If W try's to engage in convo I will be civil but end it on my terms.
I would be grateful for advice here. Mr Bond, Sandi
I've reread 250 posts from Sandi2s WW thread but want to plan. I understand the need for W to feel loss and for her to stop the disrespect, resentment and rebelliousness etc. My actions will speak louder than words. I need to do things for me without thought for W.
I want to only do stuff that moves the MR forward and not backwards. There is a confrontation coming, and a fine line to walk. All WW's EA/PA start with a confrontation. How far do I take it,? Boundaries with ultimatum.?
I've decided I will not be going to the movies with her, will not be buying her more than one birthday present or Xmas present, will not be inviting her to join the boys and I on a trip to London and definitely will not be moving out of the house
Hi IITL
You may want to have a look at JStrong's thread. He just had a showdown with his W and posters feel he handled it well. You can see in his post the impact on his W and her realisation - I may have gone too far here..
I think there are parallels with your current sitch...
Take care my friend
Thanks Sotto, I'll take a look
I've said it before and I'll say it again, why the hang up about the perceived lack of attractiveness of this man, on your viewpoint? He could look like the elephant man but your W sees something in him. Does this change what you should be doing - no.
Detach, don't believe anything she says and work on yourself. Worrying about the OM isn't going to help right now.
Huddy I've decided to confront her, probably Saturday.
I will set a boundary, including proceeding to D if necessary.
She isn't going to snap out of it. She has been cake eating all along. Me for domestic needs and OM for emotional needs. It going to stop now or its D.
I don't need evidence. I don't need to confirm a PA, I don't need to wait.
StrongJ has a very similar thread and I will post on his.
I will just say....the EA needs to stop. I won't be in an OM etc.
If she denies its an EA?
Why does she ring him everyday? Or vice versa
Why does she text him every night or vice versa
Would she be happy for me to read all their texts etc.
Would she be happy for OMs partner to read all their text etc.
I have lost my MR, I have nothing to lose
Whoa! Who says you need to go so drastic? Yeah, you're angry, but going caveman on her isn't going to help. Do you want to stay married? If the answer is no, then go right ahead with your plan.
Stop and think about what you're wanting to achieve. Vent on here and listen to everyone's advice. At the end of the day, the ingredients of resolving this are on here but it's going to take a lot of time. A D isn't a miraculous tool to make anyone feel better.
Huddy I've decided to confront her, probably Saturday.
Wow. Slow down there buddy. Remember what GB advised? Don't confront UNTIL you have a plan. This doesn't read like a plan. At this point you DO NOT know for sure if there is an A to worry about. I agree the evidence doesn't look good but make sure your case is water tight first and foremost.
Read over what GB has said. Do some unexpected things like turn up unannounced, see how she reacts. Use the recorder and listen to what's going on. If it is an A you will find out soon enough. You need to be prepared for that one friend. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is more devastating than hearing and admission from their own lips.
On the other hand there also could be no A at all. Hopefully that's the case as this will shift where you put your energy and how you act around her.
Either way once you know (A or not) the snooping has to stop.
Peace friend.
Will have to agree with NDY.
At this point you DO NOT know for sure if there is an A to worry about. I agree the evidence doesn't look good but make sure your case is water tight first and foremost.
There is an A. Maybe just an EA, but there is definitely an A going on.
Use the recorder and listen to what's going on. If it is an A you will find out soon enough. You need to be prepared for that one friend. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is more devastating than hearing and admission from their own lips.
Be VERY, VERY CAREFUL on the recorder. And I mean careful. What do the laws say concerning this? In my area, a recording may be made (and admissible) ONLY IF the one doing the recording is also being recorded - in other words, you can't make the recording unless you are also being recorded, too. Some cases it isn't admissible, and in other it can land you in legal hot water. Be careful!
But showing up where you are unexpected is an awesome idea. If you do happen to catch something going on that shouldn't be, keep your emotions in check!
Keep your chin up!
Thanks all for the advice.
I've calmed down a bit. The lack of sleep last night screwed me up.
W reached out to me by phone today. A longish ( not strictly necessary) convo about S11 walk to the train station in the mornings in the dark and her concerns for his safety.
NB I have no concerns but I validated hers. We later had an email exchange with a bit of humour thrown in.
If it wasn't for the confirmed EA yesterday, the last 2 days convos would be considered positive by me. Also the shoulder massage/foot rub on Sunday. She also tagged me in a FB post - first time for weeks.
Immediate plan is to do nothing - wait for the recorder, check its capabilities and put it in her car on Saturday. I need to remove it Monday or Tuesday as I go to Sweden on Wednesday for a few days then back on Friday night.
From Wonka I think
Thank you for articulating the main point for LBHs whose WAW is in an A: stop being such a wet noodle and grab the bull by the horns from the get-go. It starts with dropping the rabid FEAR in you. Your WAW is a paper tigeress.
In summary, the action list should be something like this upon arriving at the DB forum in short order:
1-Keep DB to yourself and hide the DR book. You don't give away the playbook to the opponent. ERASE all browsing history on your computer.
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
4-Stop sharing the same MBR with your WAW. You are not willing to share her with another man. Tell WAW that "you have decided that you prefer she sleep in another room."
5-Sex? Forget it. It all stops right now. Same as above.
6-DO NOT have convos with WAW about the OM. You are not her gay boyfriend. You are her H. Do not acknowledge or speak about the OM at all.
7- Move all of your FINANCIAL assets into a new banking account with just your name on it (no more joint $$ with WAW) and cancel joint credit cards. Be sure to inform bank officers that your WAW is not to get a loan or open a card with your name ...they must call you first to alert of this.
8-Cut off all joint cell phone plans (you are not financing W's affair by paying for her smartphone to continue conducting her A on the family's money)
9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any) and other praticalities
10-Consult with a Lawyer to know your rights. Go in for an informational meeting with 3 to 4 attorneys. Keep it to yourself. Knowledge is power.
11-Cancel all MC sessions. It is ineffective as long as your WAW is in an A and just going there for appearance's sake to claim that "they tried." Pshaw!
12-Don't drive or pick her up from the airport. She can figure this out herself.
12-Make your own GAL plans. Don't drop them if WAW cries to you that she needs you to "babysit" the kids or threatens you.
13-Stop going into an overdrive cleaning the house or doing the laundry. Makes you look like the gay housekeeper from La Cage aux Folles movie
The above is advocated as necessary with a WW asap.
But everyone is telling me to slow down and wait a bit and see if she is having a PA and get all the evidence etc.
I don't need more evidence - she is having an EA and its unacceptable. It's at least an inappropriate friendship and at worst a EA/PA
Here is a transcript:
OM: I have a new Facebook friend!!!! Xx
W: I take you mean (my name)?
OM: soooooo funny
OM: you make me ever so happy (W name)
OM: you are a very funny and beautiful lady and I love you loads!
W: Coolio! That's very cheering! Anyway it's good that (my name) is your friend. How could he resist the (OM name) charm?!
OM: I have a long term plan. My new found friendship with (my name) takes the pressure off (W name). (My name) will love all the bigging up of him I do.
W: he needs a bit of confidence building!
As you can see OM is mocking me and W is complicit.
OM is leading the conversation. W is a lot cooler but her jibe about me needing a confidence boost shows her lack of respect for me.
NB this happened after I let them continue to be 'friends' if W was open about there phonecalls etc. and after I had let OM visit our house to fix a tap, so I could meet him.
See how this is so humiliating for me!
I feel a letter like the one below is necessary.
Dear WW
I want to be clear on some things. One is that I do not want a divorce, but will not stand in your way should you choose to continue on this path. Two, I am not willing live in an open marriage with a third party.
We will not be friends should you decide to proceed with a D.
Your choice is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and our sons, OM partner and daughter
We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil and courteous, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each other.
Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in an affair with the OM, our communication only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges.
We have some decisions to make here. When you’re ready, please let me know your thoughts.
Sincerely,
IS
You just went to 100mph in 6 seconds. You're vulnerable right now and could possibly be reading way too much into that conversation. Pick your fights carefully.
Don't send any letters/emails. Get hard evidence first.
I'm a big fan on Wonka and I hope she drops in here. But that post of hers is related to a 'Confirmed' A. You on the other hand don't have a confirmed A just yet.
Deep breaths. Calm down.
I want to give her a kick in the ass. Choice = consequences.
What does it matter if there is a PA? The EA is just as bad and just as disrespectful to me, our kids, OM kid and his partner of 13 years.
Every time I have stood up to her regarding being friends, going to movies, her disrespectful tone/attitude, not sitting with her in the evening, I have got a response including annoyance and anger.....and then I have backed down like a WET NOODLE. saying sorry and doing stuff to placate her.
Last Sunday S11 came home from a weekend scout trip and he was v tired and grumpy. He was in W's words 'vile' and she had a hard time to get him to go to bed early. During this she was texting OM 'Missing You '. .....Not coming to me but reaching out to him.
One hour later she accepts a shoulder rub and massage from me whilst reading his reply. His was a goofball reply nothing serious, just a stupid cartoon. But it was while I was rubbing her feet FFS!!!
Cake eating!!! and throwing me a crumb. Being the Princess ...Im sick of it
IS, I am sorry to hear about this. But, please take a bit of time and get yourself less emotional. I received papers this weekend because I asked W to share a meal as a family for S7 birthday. I thought I was ready for this to be done one way or the other, but it is still rough.
My point is, unless you are ready to throw in the towel, tread lightly. If W is infatuated or whatever, she may not like what you have to say and it could escalate. You can set boundaries and not be harsh about it. Protect yourself and your boys.
I mean no disrespect. And I have done many things wrong in my sitch. Just trying to offer a little support.
Good luck!
OK, yeah, you're sick of it, but how is going in all guns blazing going to help? Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey. As NDY says, you've got no real evidence. So, she's slagged you off to OM. If everybody on the planet knew what we said about each other sometimes, we'd all die of shock.
So, what have you got? OK, OM seems to want more than friends but by looking at the exchanges, your W hasn't indicated that she's jumping in and out of the sheets with him - yet.
How does this change your reaction? If she's going to have a PA with OM, then it's gonna happen. You can't stop it. So, this is where you start to look after yourself. GAL, look after your kids, be THE man. She's throwing you crumbs to keep you off the scent. Yes, she is being disrespectful to you (in fact, the ultimate is him being in your house - what a slap that is) and I know how you feel you're being trampled on, but you need firm evidence of this.
Personally (NDY feel free to correct me on this), I wouldn't confront your W, I'd take the evidence to his W, but only when it's FIRM. That should mess it up nicely. But be warned, I have read on here that confrontation doesn't bring an end to things, it can simply drive it underground.
I still think you need to calm down a bit first. You're angry. I get that and understand it but it's not going to help. Giving her a kick in the @ss can back fire as Huddy said. If you have REAL evidence then fine, get your plan together as GB advised.
You said
During this she was texting OM 'Missing You '.
If this is true and you can prove it then OK, you have a lot of thinking to do. It sure sounds like an EA if this event actually took place.
Here's the thing. The vets here when I was still trying to same my M gave me the best piece of advice ever. Be like Clint Eastwood. Cool calm and collected. Not angry, cool.
Gather your evidence first and foremost.
Good Luck
. I understand your feelings and I can't say you are wrong to feel that way. You are surely right about what you think. Trust your gut. But never act on feelings alone.
You need to step back and decide what you want. It is so normal to want to barge in and say enough is enough. But you need to really know what you want and act accordingly. If you really want out, go in hell for leather and worry about the fallout later.
But if you want to keep your family together think before you act. There is lots of advice on internet about how to confront EA. How you approach it can affect the outcome.
OK Thanks all, I sometimes just need to vent on here a bit and ask opinion. I've just finished reading the 500 post WW thread and a chunk of that says I should act asap to stamp on the EA.
I'll hold my fire for now, but it will eat me up when I return home on Friday if I am sitting next to her and she is texting OM.
I doubt there is a PA , but then I doubted an EA.
Most of their convo I captured on screenshots was goofball convo about meaningless crap except for the bit below when OM says how clever he has been by getting me to be his FB friend and ' I love you loads' to W and a week later when she says 'Missing you (OM Name) (with a crying emoji).
Its the thought that every day they contact each other that eats me up.
I will obtain his home address from the electoral roll. Knowledge is power
a chunk of that says I should act asap to stamp on the EA.
This is true. If it's confirmed (and it sounds like it is) then yes. How you handle it is the important part. So gather the evidence and then make sure it's water tight. Note, a WW will spew and scream because 'They are just friends' and 'There is nothing going on' Etc. Be careful of how you play this because if she's ever accused you of being controlling or manipulating then this will get thrown back in your face. So be like Clint and make sure she can't deny it.
This is true. If it's confirmed (and it sounds like it is) then yes. How you handle it is the important part. So gather the evidence and then make sure it's water tight. Note, a WW will spew and scream because 'They are just friends' and 'There is nothing going on' Etc. Be careful of how you play this because if she's ever accused you of being controlling or manipulating then this will get thrown back in your face. So be like Clint and make sure she can't deny it.
Can't be any more clear when she said "missing you." I would be willing to bet hard money that at minimum it is an EA. And the fact that she is belittling (even if indirectly) you with him is enough to say f*** this. As everyone said, gather, gather, and gather. Confront ONLY when there is proof.
I am not sure on contacting the OM's W. That could get dicey real quick and if you aren't ready for a physical confrontation then you may want to think twice. Little story - I have a friend whose ex got involved with a married man. When he found out, he didn't hit the roof but gathered intel. And a lot of it. He found the guy's FB account (through snooping his W's) and found the guy's W's name. Then he created a fake FB account and send the guy's W screenshot after screenshot. Want to guess what happened? The shite hit the fan but they didn't know who it was from. Both were busted. My friend's W went all sorts of crazy and scared about it. Good stuff.
If you feel you must contact the OM's W, then do it anonymously... Just sayin...
Thanks to Spiff, NDY,Huddy,Roiste and others for your replies.
This board keeps my sanity.
It seems you are asking me to collect evidence which contains sexual content or words of affection etc to confirm the EA and give myself more proof before confronting.
Stuff like 'ILY'. Illicit meet ups etc, not just the goofball convos they have and a solitary 'Missing You' from W. Correct?? I suspect they will flirt and he will be throwing himself at her, and W deflecting.
I can only record conversations from now on and the only two-way convo will be in her car.
Her smartphone is protected by fingerprint and her Ipad is always locked with a keycode when she is away from it. She never uses the PC to logon to FB.
So the cold war continues.
Isit,
Think about this for a minute - are you OK with those types of conversations your W is having? You may never see the extent of it, but then again, you may discover something. Either way, even what you do know is inappropriate contact.
Her phone may be protected by fingerprint, but it can be accessed by a code (usually 4 digit), too. Just sayin...
Hi Spiff
Yes the phone is protected by passcode as well but I dont know it and have tried several codes like birthdays etc. W also keeps it well guarded, the only place she doesnt take it is the shower!
NB I can find the home address of OM next week, I just need to visit the local library to get access to electoral roll.
This is what I want to say to W:
W: Are you coming to watch TV
M: Im not comfortable with that.
W: Why not?
M: Because I'm not comfortable with you texting OM while we watch TV
W: But you said I could call and Text him
M: Yes, but would you be comfortable showing me the content of all those texts and showing them to J****** (OM Partner)
W: silence
M: If you are not comfortable with showing me the content then you are having an inappropriate R with OM.
W can not deny an EA IF she will not show me her phone text convos with OM - to me its that simple.
What does this achieve?
A boundary for a start - she will stop texting him in front of me.
It should make her think of the consequences of me telling J****** or J****** finding out.
She will probably show anger and resentment but F*** it - its about time I grew some balls
Hmmm.... I don't think you should have that convo until you have really hard evidence. I think that's got problems written all over it. I see where you're coming from, but, be careful.
NDY - just read all your thread - and its inspiring, your were so strong, and committed to doing it right all the way.
Unfortunately the thread locks out on 31/05 - access denied?
Huddy - going to read yours from the start as well.
Isit,
I like the thought behind what you want to say and you want it to go, but as they say in war - once the fighting starts the battle plan goes out the window.
I will agree with the others, I don't think its wise just yet. Let her hang herself. Others may know more, though.
IS
If You're going to read mine, I suggest you try and remember that I was a wreck at the start. NDY, Wonka, Py etc. pulled me out of the mess.
Spiff - i know...its like a film script in my head
Huddy - we all are wrecks at the start...its the growth I like to read about.
NDY - just read all your thread - and its inspiring, your were so strong, and committed to doing it right all the way.
Unfortunately the thread locks out on 31/05 - access denied?
Huddy - going to read yours from the start as well.
Thank you IS. That's a nice thing to say. Not sure what's happening with that thread locking out. I'll need to look at it when I have more time. Pity I couldn't save my M though. The rebellion burns fearcly in my ExW.
Spiff - i know...its like a film script in my head
Huddy - we all are wrecks at the start...its the growth I like to read about.
Word of advice. No matter how much you play that convo in your head it never ever turns out the way you think, and that my fiend will get you on the back foot because suddenly you need to improvise and trust me on this she will twist and turn until you're apologising. Hence, let the evidence speak for itself. At the moment it's just (oh my god I can actually picture her saying this) "Miss interpreted innocent text taken out of context". And suddenly you're the bad guy. I did this many times.
I recommend you wait because you make saving your family and marriage (or deciding to divorce) so very much easier when ALL the truth is out on the table versus confronting with deniable proof and then being unable to discover anything because the affairees go on lockdown.
i also consider the likelihood that this has been going on for years. If they shut it down you MAY get an acknowledgement of something recent/current but she can still divorce you saying she told you she wanted a divorce the last two years, blah, blah, blah I wasn't cheating because he knew it was over, yada, yada, yaada.
The truth is obtainable right now (I hope). A few days and you'll hopefully have a lot more answers (and, I'm guessing a lot more hurt and anger).
Without the truth...you remain stuck in this guessing game and questioning your own perceptions (because she's gas lighting you). With the truth - your situation one way or another is going to progress out of stasis.
I appreciate the perspectives of Sandy and Wonka but they are both women. Wonka, as I understand it, is a lesbian so she has no experience with heterosexual marriage nor infidelity in heterosexual marriage. Their recommendations of how men should act and behave are actually, in my opinion, outlines of how most women handle cheating husbands. Most men don't handle it that way despite the women on many forums trying to get them to "man up" in their womanly opinion and act like, well, women. You are a man. As a man, you define your own masculinity. You use your manly logic and reasoning skills to investigate the truth about your situation and resolve to respond accordingly and after seeking wise counsel thereafter. A man doesn't throw temper tantrums. A man doesn't try to intimidate a woman physically. A man speaks the truth, expresses his feelings appropriately without begging. A man can cry.
A man also is strategic and realizes his reactions to infidelity are being or may be measured and used against him. When you go to battle with a wayward wife they are often far more experienced at battling their way through relationship conflict and flipping the table on you. They've been emotionally battling women since elementary school. They don't fight fair and a wayward wife takes that to new heights. You think you've got her busted now but if you aren't smart and just think you can roll in with a little evidence and PROVE she's done anything - you are sadly mistaken. She'll admit nothing until she knows it's useless to deny it any longer. Worse - if she thinks she can deny it she'll make your life miserable for even trying to confuse her and make you out to be the snooping horrible controlling jerk. Basically, she'll project all her lying cheating sneaking attributes upon you and then skewer you for it.
Be a man YOU choose to be but whatever you decide, be a smart man.
I remember way back when during one of our pre-marriage off periods with my wife where I would play conversations out like that in my head. The only thing that was predictable was my first line... after that she never, ever responded how I expected.... ever.
NDY - managed to read up to mid june - tough, tough sitch you went through.
Getting away from the EA for now:
These last 3 day I have been away on business and was determined to do no contact unless necessary (except to speak to kids before bed)
This is how W has reached out to me (baby steps)
On Monday , phonecall and text under pretext of kids wanting to talk to me before bed. She then talks about her day at work and tried to extend the call. Later she tagged me in a FB post.
Tuesday, phonecall at work (most unusual) to talk about her 'fears' 'anxiety' re S11 walk to railway station in the morning in the dark. This is the first time he has done it. I validate.
Wednesday I rang her on the way to work ( done to change things around - she again talks about her anxiety for s11)
After work she rings to talk about why I had withdrawn some money from joint account without telling her. This is a mess up by me but I had legitimate reasons and she agreed it was ok during the phonecall). She didnt like the fact I hadn't told her and said it was an issue of trust - TRUST FFS - I so wanted to say what about OM!
I apologised for not telling her and she was fine about it.
She also mentioned how money was tight and we needed to spend less on kids for Xmas (we usually splash out). I thought hmmm, this is the woman who wants us to separate and increase our outgoing by £1000 per month!!
We also talked about arrangements for Friday night when I have a GAL night out. I told her I would be also out from 6:30 - 7:30 - but not why and where.
She's got an issue with me telling her 'I'm going out' but not where and why. She said I wouldn't like it if she did the same. She wants us to be transparent as to where we are going. I said ok - in future I would tell her where. In fact I am going to see IC.
Later she called me back from her car to let me talk to S8 before bed. She didnt have to as I had already spoken to both S8 and s11 earlier.
In summary - she reaches out in a small way talking about her 'fears' and work - something she wouldnt do with OM - they just have stupid goofball convos. She doesnt like it when i go out without telling her where. In future I will just say I'm going to the mall.
Tonight I have a GAl activity - Liverpool v Bordeaux soccer game - my first for several years!
Hi Is,
I havent read all your threads but from what I have, i understand she knows you know about EAPA with OM, are OK with it and whats to know when and where you go?
Reading sandi she places a high value on respect. Do you think she does?
From this post it seems more like keeping you tagged on a line than anything else. A controlling behaviour which if the above is true I dont see why you accept it.
if I misread anything or didnt get the whole picture sorry. Just curious.
Max
Morning IS
NDY - managed to read up to mid june - tough, tough sitch you went through
Thanks man. It was tough. Still is TBH but I'm in a much better place.
Reading your last thread I can see she's temp checking you. I could be wrong but you are clearly on the other end of her rope. She wants to split up but at the same time wants full communication and transparency? While an EA is going on? I think she's twigged that you know and is trying to figure out just how much you know.
Look, she's fired you as her husband. She doesn't get to have the same control she had when you were still a couple. Maximus is correct when he talks about respect. Is she being respectful to you? Not from where I'm siting.
Although there are very few success stories where the M is saved on here what I can say is that this won't get any better until you change the dynamic of your R with your W. I can read that you are thinking along these lines and that is good. It's just the execution of those changes in the dynamic you need to think about. You're doing well here.
Max - Its an EA... probably not a PA - She says they are just good friends and yes in my insecurity I said she could carry on talking to him/texting him...a dumb move on my part
But that was before I got more of the picture. I am trying to get the full picture - then I will set a boundary. If a full blown PA - she will be chucked from MBR and more.
If more of a EA, then i will seek advice here, with IC and maybe a DB coach as to how to preceed.
She has also been disrespectful with her tone/irritability/attitude/tutting about very minor stuff I do around the house. She disguises it by includes the boys in her complaint - 'you all never switch off lights'.
Its calmed down as I am away but I will be back on Friday - Wednesday am. If it starts again I will clamp down on it.
Hi Is,
If you let them continue then that means you knew they were up to no good. I do not have to let anything if it is healthy. I knew my Wwas up to no good after seeing just one message from OM. Nothing incriminating on its own but we know our W and when something is out of sync our gut feeling kicks in.
Another thing, to me an EA is just as bad as PA and also a prelude. Even more. We know how women tick and that they need emotion to fuel the fire. Your W has been given the fuel, are you just waiting for the spark?
I read the transcript of the message, you are being laughed at by the OM and your W and there is definitely an EA going on. In the part I read I did not see any missing you comment but what I did see is inappropriate by any standard.
If you are to gain any respect from your W you need to get it from you first. There are so many expressions to be used to describe your next steps but I would concentrate on boundaries first, then detaching and finally GAL.
As for the richard (d1ck) of her friend, I would erase him and her from FB as friends saying thanks but you are not into groupies and leave it at that.
If you are financing her phone, petrol etc, I would stop it. Tell her this is your idea of an open marriage ... you are open to OM sponsoring her ways. if she wants to be some else's cake then they can pay for the ingredients.
Do not go into a slanging match with her when she rants. STFU listen to her, validate what is correct, disagree with what is not and stop her if she disrespects you. stand up for yourself.
I remember Sandi saying that the eye rolling and others as you metion are signs she has no respect. You need to earn it for now and for later.
Any new relationship you may get into should this fail... you need your partner to respect you otherwise you will fall into the same trap.
Max
Is when she traps you with stuff just deflect tge exact same way she does. Answer with a question and really use here exact words back. What would she say if you told her it upsets you when she just leaves? Answer that way. She'll either say nothing or start being disrespectful. Then just say you won't tolerate disrespect and hang up.
Whether or not she's trying to control or not, doesn't matter much. She still needs to learn how to communicate in a way that eliminates guesswork. That you can change. Another thing too, you can speak the truth-something like you tell me you quitting on our marriage but you want to know where I am going? Why?
You have to check if you can take money out of the joint account? Does she ask for receipts? My view is a joint account is just that, you both pay in, you can both take out, as long as it's for normal purposes.
I'd check that account. Has she paid for meals etc. with OM from it? That's a nice bit of evidence. Watch out you don't come across as controlling though. In fact, scrub that, sit on it until a later date.
Wait a minute Huddy. I wouldn't scrap that at all. That's actually not a bad idea. If you use online banking you can see transactions going back quite some time without it looking like snooping.
That makes sense bud. Ok IS, what you're waiting for!
So today I go back home after 4 nights away.
I need to observe and hold my tongue until I see the lie of the land.
Her interactions via, phone, email and text have been good all week, with her voicing her anxieties about cutting her mummy strings with S11. Her trying to accommodate me talking to the boys before bed . Generally emailing re future work bookings for me and arrangements to see S11 perform in Xmas concert.
Her last email yesterday for instance
Hi again!
I'll make sure we're back for 6:30 - speak to you later :-)
Ok it's all friend zone with no real affection but it's better than it has been.
I will test recorder and put it in her car maybe tonight if I have time.
I need to see if she is excessively texting/hiding phone screen or see if her general openness towards me is because she has backed away from OM after her FB account was hacked ( yes, a pigs might fly hope from me!)
Then I see assess if her tone is disrespectful to me. Is she talking to me any less respectfully than one of her friends. This I will clamp down on.
I should be home by 5pm , then will unpack, eat, shower and change for a GAL night out. My first Xmas party this year! Then go to an IC session until 7:30 and then out to the pub for the party.
So I'll only see W for one hour tonight . It might be hard to do anything with recorder tonight
Hi Is,
I am all for verifying if we need to prove a point and so long as we know where to draw the line with snooping.
Have you ever looked at your signature below your profile? are you content on living each year with a BD and recon a few days later?
Right now you are going to a W that possibly has OM and disrespects you. Your answer is to put a recorder in her car?
I may be wrong here IS but shouldnt you stop worrying what she may or may not have and think about what YOU do and do NOT have?
How is this in any way dropping the rope, detaching, GAL, etc. Where is your self respect? How do you plan on working on yourself to get her respect? do you think you ever will?.. like this?
You have been taken on a roller coaster ride for too long, when do you call it a day? By that i do not mean D but think of you, your kids and how this affects them. How do you think your kids see you?
I agree that D should be avoided and I am NOT saying that you take that step but after 5 years... you have been up and down more times than a hookers draws.... when do you let go, see who you are, what you want and if at the end of the day this is really the life you want to live for the rest of your days..... worried when the next BD will be.
This is no way to live. You are so caught up in catching her out that you forgot if she is a catch at all.
Just think about it for a day. it is a worthwhile investment ... one day for the rest of your life.
Peace bro...
Max
Hi Max
Some on here advocate a more aggressive line, - some advocate getting all the intel possible (NDY and GB) then confronting.
I know its an EA and a completely inappropriate relationship in a MR. But W believes she is not married and we are just waiting until NY before we separate. Believe me I have gone through every scenario in my head over the last few weeks. Now EA is confirmed, I want to stamp on W, on OM (break his legs) and tell his partner. To tell my friends, family and W family......
I dont know OM full history but he is 39 and has been with his partner 13 years and they have D12 and SS17?
I will know where OM lives by Monday.
Back in 2012 after first BD, i was lucky and found DB books etc in a couple of weeks I had 6 months of hell but we reconciled after I did 180's and GAL - I was an [censored] to live with and I sorted ME out but WE didnt sort out the underlying MR problems. W didnt take any responsibility for our problems and I didnt question it - I wanted R at any cost.
I didnt take advise on here to get counselling and other help because I was so elated at the overnight reconciliation. Back then she was a WAW not a WW. I snooped back in 2012 but it was easier then with less security on phones - I could not find any evidence of EA/PA . I worked on fixing me and that led to R - just like DB book .
The 2nd BD was after she read some of my self-help books on my kindle and convinced herself I was manipulating her for R.
The next 2 years were good, then the drift. The 3rd BD wasnt really a BD, more like a plea from me to sort out our problems as I could feel the drift.
The presence of OM has threw me completely in Oct and I guess I was in denial. My W has integrity and wouldnt do such a thing etc.
The confrontation re:OM is coming but I want full intel as to whether it is a PA or not.
Max - Also I am quite detached in my interactions with W. Pursuing to a minimal, no phonecalls, unnecessary texts or emails. I dont bring up R, or follow her round house, i dont do excessive housework , just what I have always done, I GAL - 3 nights this week already.
I obey the 37 rules.
I try to do what works - remember 2012 ....I do some of the things that worked then but most were GAL or learning to validate and listen or getting physically fitter etc.
For instance W loves a shoulder rub and/or foot massage. Before 2011 I rarely did either - whilst Dbing in 2012 I did many footrubs and continued after R. I have done dozens and dozens of foot rubs since and she loves them.
Last Sunday I did another footrub and she thanked me. Is it pursuing Yes, probably, but its also doing what worked.
I agree i am not detached emotionally at all. I weigh up every interactions into a positive or negative, its the OM that is killing me emotionally. If OM was not in picture I would be a lot more detached.
Its a balancing act - tough love and doing what works
Hi Is,
I have/had a situation similar to yours.
The OM is also married, has 2 D, goes to same Gim as W, I know where he works and I know the area he lives. I know his FB as well as his W's.
I told him 2 times to back off. He didnt. I finally went to his work place and confronted him and as he was smug behind the counter said I would see him in the openess of the gim entrance. He got the memo.
I know how it started and almost when.
I think I have a pretty accurate idea of how things developed.
What I do not know is what they said or did.
My W rarely went out on weekends but as I travel a bit she would have had plenty of time. Sometimes she would go to a night out and come back around 2-3 am. Dinner here is around 11:00 pm.
The point is .. who cares if it was a PA. Does it make it easier? In my case no.
I threatened the OM as a man to man thing as he knows me from the Gim. Not to protect R.
The correct way to protect R is for her to shut him out.
I cannot go around bashing every guy I suspect is playing with my wife. I need to have my W not want to play around. Only if W makes it clear to someone she is not interested and they persist would I intervene but thats different.
I think my W has messed around max twice and very many years between each. The first one I dont know,just a hunch and i cant act on hunches against her.
We are grown men and sometimes have a deep relationship with a W on a healthy level. No benefits and do care deeply but it stays that way. We would be open to misinterpretation as well if W found out so Ill take note of possible A #1 but just store it.
A #2 is proven and admitted. Im no angel, I broke off from my OW a year ago and in the process lost a friend but I knew W was uncomfortable deep down so I respected her feelings. I put W first.
In short Is, and as cadet put it, work on yourself and your R. The OM is a distraction. If you do confront him your W will probabl back him, hate you and make him OM#1. Now you may have to worry about OM#2 if your W decides to continue looking elsewhere. so everyone is the problem but your W? Guess again.
Seriously Is, work on your life and show your W that for the time being YOU LHBNILWH and have no time for silly behaviour. You have something more important to attend to ... IS...
Peace bro
Max
Hi guys. Can I just clarify that the gathering of Intel shouldn't be at the expense of IS working on himself but it is needed so that IS understands what he's dealing with.
This isn't about confronting the OM. He's not the problem. She is. As has been said many times on these boards and elsewhere females can only be romantically attached to one man at a time. I believe this. I think it's true and IS needs to know if his W is romantically attached to this guy or not. If she is then the way he deals with his W will be dramatically different from a WAS.
But the Intel part is, as you point out Max a fine line. If the A can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt then words aren't necessary in a confrontation. Also, this may well be a deal breaker. And this requires even more work on yourself IMO because it's heartbreaking.
Hi NDY,
Fully agree with what you are saying.
IMHO Is is spending far too much time concentrating on her and less on him.
He needs to switch this around to see things clearer and handle the future.
Max
Agreed. It's difficult because all three of us know how all consuming it can be suspecting your W is in an A. And Max, you and I know how much worse it is once the A is confirmed. It does consume you. But the objective is to not let it take over and define your life.
It's hard and a little complicated as IS has already done DB to a degree of success twice already. Going back to GB's posts it does seem odd that this has been going on for so long. But there are many, many women that have secret A's but stay with their husbands for a long time. And these A's are usually with married men that are happy with the status quo.
So knowing one way or the other is just a step in the journey. But which journey doesn't distract from IS and his objectives on working on him.
HI NDY,
Totally agree, only addition is that IS's W's A is not secret and it looks like this one and any other she may have never will.
Reflects a total lack of respect. I think some people in a crazy facked up way show respect to the LBS when in an A because they know there will be consequences. When they dont give a damn the LBS really has his work cut out.
My question is how long can you accept this SQ before you break and what does that say about you and your dignity, especially if you are DB. Why DB?
I hope he succeeds.
Max
That's a good question and I think it's a very personal answer. For me I started DB to save my M. I didn't succeed in that but I did succeed in saving myself. As with IS that's where he needs to be. I don't believe he's there right now.
When an A is exposed. The WW will squirm any which way to make out its all in your head. Or in my case it wasn't an A because they only kissed. Ha, now look at the mess she's in. And that's kinda my point on the Intel. If there is an A, and it sure looks that way then she can't be given a chance to turn it all around and make it look like IS is just being paranoid. Because she'll try that.
Same here,
I joined to save M and ended up learning a lot about M dynamics and myself.
I like to think I am piecing but still a long long way away from total healing. DB has helped me be more rational and quickly cool down when I do heat up.
Im no angel, I broke off from my OW a year ago and in the process lost a friend but I knew W was uncomfortable deep down so I respected her feelings. I put W first.
Max
That's a bit confusing...Why didn't you put your wife first BEFORE you cheated on her. Also you didn't "lose a friend" you lost a woman with low self esteem that was willing to degrade herself and fool around with a married man. It also appears you rationalize and justify your affair based on the speculation that you think your wife cheated on you first years prior. It appears the truth might have helped you avoid falling into infidelity yourself.
I can understand now why your experience with infidelity discounts honesty and the truth; however, in my decade long recovery along with the 100's of couples my wife and I have helped address this issue in real life the full truth was/is ground zero starting point of recovery (or a healthy divorce with full knowledge).
His wife is much more likely to NEVER give him the full truth AND he is much more likely to believe the truth that he investigates on his own than, after 3 years of this crap, believe what his wayward wife decides to share with him.
I understand you may be able to say "bygones" and decide to just try to recover your marriage with your wife after you both ran around cheating on each other. It's convenient for both of you to ignore the facts but that's like buying a good looking house that you know is resting on a sinking cracked foundation. Eventually the house will collapse.
Further, getting your wife to respect you will never happen while she's having an affair. The affair ending is step one of recovery. You also will never get respect by being disrespectful. If and when he finds out the entire truth he should respectfully confront her with the truth, indicate clearly that he is devastated, indicate calmly that he has no desire to remain in a open marriage and demand she end her affair. After this many years, he can probably then ask HER to move out if she refuses. Most betrayed husband's might fare better if they could actually reasonably and calmly deliver an ultimatum and stick to it but few really can or do and the situations is so dynamic that I don't find advising it worthwhile. Instead you demand it and if she says, "or what" the betrayed husband says "I'm not sure - but I'm not going to be rubbing your feet for now and I'm not going to be enabling this betrayal any further and then I don't know yet". It's better than an ultimatum, followed quickly by a backtrack. In my experience, the guys that can MAKE their wives dump the OM and return to the marriage aren't posting on a forum for help (and it usually involves a threat of violence -which is not a truly productive way to restore a loving marriage).
Whatever you do....don't expect to confront her with anger and have her cry and cave. She will meet your upset with her own suppression over-anger which just blows it up into a completely unproductive mess. Be smart. Be intelligent. Handle the crisis in your life and marriage with manly calmness and strategic thinking instead of basal rage and/or anger. She's not your property. You are hurt but that doesn't justify yelling, punching walls, throwing things, etc (and you'll likely end up with the cops called on you and hurt any legal case as well)
Consider this - a decade later my wife is astonished at how calm, considerate and thoughtful I was where, when looking back, she remembers how awful and hurtful she was behaving towards me. It's a demonstration of strength in crisis. Ultimately, your wife is absolutely free to leave you and never apologize or care at all about how she treated you. If you go nuts on her - she'll just use that to further rational and justify her abuse of you. The cage door is open. You are not her keeper. You are deeply hurt and prefer she stay and actually commit to rebuilding your marriage together but you will be OK either way....her, not so much. A wayward spouse's ONLY route to happiness and redemption (biblically - if you are into that stuff at all) is back through their betrayed spouse. It's really hard but in your hurt see if you can muster up some pity for them because the sinner surely doesn't recognize the consequences of their own sin. Your wife is completely lost right now and you are the only person that can help her. She may resist but there in no real point to anger or yelling. She may think she's all cool (way wards are delusional) but she is truly wallowing in a pit. She is or will punish herself enough when she sees and witnesses what you have put yourself through for her (and she won't realize that until she's in love with you again, which can't happen until the affair ends and you began rebuilding your relationship).
The whole respect thing - it's a red herring. Respect yourself by controlling yourself. Stand up for yourself and your boundaries in a firm but calm manner. You can't make anyone respect you. She'll only respect you later if you behave in a respectful manner. IMO, punishing her isn't your job.
Respect yourself by controlling yourself. Stand up for yourself and your boundaries in a firm but calm manner.
Gold. Pure gold. This to me is the first step for the LBH. It's a hard place to reach but it's essential. GB, this post is right on the money once again.
Hi GB/Max/NDY
I appreciate the time and effort put in on my behalf.
GB - a great post and thanks - I will read it slowly to absorb.
I am trying to do what works - remember I have had partial success in the past and am a much, much nicer better person than the person I was in 2011.
Also remember this has been going for 4 years BUT -I did 6 months of 180's and GAL and got W to consider reconciliation. Then for 2 years life was good. W loved me again in word and deed but we didn't put in the hard yards to sustain that love.
I retained my new better behaviours (very supportive of W in her work, doing more housework, getting physically fit, GALLIng etc etc) but WE didnt work at US - our intimate, emotional connection.
I am a classic Nice Guy and when the MR drifts and I can feel W detaching I dont do anything about it. I dont complain and I reason and rationalize problems away. i.e. no sex this week again - oh, but we have been too busy. work, the kids etc/
Anyway back to this weekend.
Had an IC session last night and IC thought the FB messages I had seen didn't amount to much. She thought OM is mentally childlike in his behaviours and words and W uses him as an fun outlet (verbally) at the end of a serious day at work - most of their convos are goofing around using what I call baby talk. IC thought I shouldnt confront her on the evidence....yet.
W was good when I got home. She offered me a lift in her car to my GAL activity as it was raining hard. I went to a Xmas party with the running club. I don't often go out socially with them (once or twice a year) and got lots of compliments about my clothes, new hairstyle, and general slimness - from the ladies - a nice ego boost.
Today I'm feeling a little post-alcohol blues. Ive tested the recorder and will try to get access to W's car this afternoon. Unfortunately she parks right in front of house so it will not be easy.
Also W has not spoken disrespectfully to me last night or this morning. IC agrees I should clamp down on W if she does.
IC was encouraged by how much W has sort 'connection' with me recently:
- going out of her way to make my GAL life easier - a lift to the pub and railway station
- tea in bed 3 times
- accepting shoulder rub and foot massage
- talking about her anxiety/ insecurity about S11
- talking about her work
- more conversive texts - with 'see you later'/'talk later'/'see you tomorrow' at the end
Small things, small steps - these are positive steps by any DBing philosophy
Im no angel, I broke off from my OW a year ago and in the process lost a friend but I knew W was uncomfortable deep down so I respected her feelings. I put W first.
Max
Hi GB,
Thanks for your reply.
In answer to your questions...
That's a bit confusing...Why didn't you put your wife first BEFORE you cheated on her.
Unless you have been in an A you will never understand the reasons.Also you didn't "lose a friend" you lost a woman with low self esteem that was willing to degrade herself and fool around with a married man.
Wrong reply. People who get involved in A are not all stereo typed low self esteemed trash. Not all are mindless over sexed rabbits. Each A tells a different story and i do not condone it nor the actions or reasons of those who are involved. I therefore do not judge. Just feel the guilt as partaker and pain as LBS. I will not say victim in my case. It also appears you rationalize and justify your affair based on the speculation that you think your wife cheated on you first years prior.
wrong again. I never justified my A and never will. If you read my post I admitted it was wrong and why I got involved. Never justified or rationalized it as a 3rd person. When you get involved in an A you do rationalize and justify based on the sentiments then. Otherwise you would not do it. You GB are judging the actions and creation of an affair based on the misconception that the parties involved are rational people. We/They arent. That is something DB promotes here, to understand that a WS is not the person you knew once. That person just flew out the window so applying logical remedies is useless. Hence applying special rules and actions for WS. I call it infidelity logic. It appears the truth might have helped you avoid falling into infidelity yourself.
No, a great many things needed to be in place for me to avoid falling myself. Emotional matureness, understanding her feelings, understanding my own, knowing thanks to DB what I know now. I never started the A thinking it was OK because I thought she had or had not. It was due to emotional weakness and ignorance on my part.I can understand now why your experience with infidelity discounts honesty and the truth; however, in my decade long recovery along with the 100's of couples my wife and I have helped address this issue in real life the full truth was/is ground zero starting point of recovery (or a healthy divorce with full knowledge).
Infidelity attacks the weakest part of a marriage which is trust and love and hard to defend against. If we are attacked we go on the defensive. If someone insults us we retaliate. How many times have we been attacked by our s and gain strength from it for next time?. With infidelity we are neither directly attacked nor hurt. We are defenseless against a non aggresive indirect action and the pain it causes. Our instincts do not know how to cope. As all of this goes on without our direct involvement and we are merely emotional bystanders, so too are we in its reconstruction (IMHO). We therefore have to develop a superior feeling of trust and inner strength to see it through. In these situations the LBS has not partaken but suffers the full brunt of emotional consequences in its development and reconstruction.His wife is much more likely to NEVER give him the full truth AND he is much more likely to believe the truth that he investigates on his own than, after 3 years of this crap, believe what his wayward wife decides to share with him.
During A's the WS give so much crap and lies, even after getting caught that there is no point pursuing this matter. I understand the situation from both perspectives. The need to know and the need to hide. I know I will never give full details and I know I will never get them. I only wanted to know she did it. I know why I did. Thanks to that and being here I had a picture of how our R developed and ended up like this. I learnt from it and now apply my knowledge to solve it. As for what you are referring to as snooping, I can understand it and think some verification IS required so as to ascertain where you are in order to how to deal with it. Once you have passed this point there is no point re-verifying, it just drains you. I had to prove to my W each accusation as she denied it. I was upset she denied everything but also understood she would. I just wanted her to know i knew it was happening.I understand you may be able to say "bygones" and decide to just try to recover your marriage with your wife after you both ran around cheating on each other. It's convenient for both of you to ignore the facts but that's like buying a good looking house that you know is resting on a sinking cracked foundation. Eventually the house will collapse.
Wrong again. I said bygones because dwelling on the past to create hate and hurt is not a way and much less forward. I also understood that my M & R as I understood it was over. I told my W this feeling and that if we were to move ahead we needed to build a new R and in time M. I do not know where I implied we applied convenience to ignore anything. We are both sad and hurt that this happened in our own ways. We are also doing wht we know how to correct what was wrong and choose a different approach to what we had up until now. To put it into perspective.. We are looking to have a roof over our heads over a solid foundation somewhere different to the old house and hope in time it will be a house and eventually a home.Further, getting your wife to respect you will never happen while she's having an affair.
I agree on the whole but also believe there are grades of respect. The spouse that hides the affair like a covert op and the spouse that blatanty carries it out infront of LBS and even openly discusses an open M. Having an A does not mean you have an open and shut case of disrespect for your S. When I started I never intended on hurting her and it was never about her. it was about me and my unmet feelings. I knew it was wrong and hid it for selfish reasons obviously but also because knew it would hurt her and she would never understand it. Respect is about valuing and I valued my W deep down. Both as a WH and LBH. The problem was it was buried under a pile of other emotions. The affair ending is step one of recovery.
100% agree You also will never get respect by being disrespectful.
i agree on that too. If and when he finds out the entire truth he should respectfully confront her with the truth, indicate clearly that he is devastated, indicate calmly that he has no desire to remain in a open marriage and demand she end her affair. After this many years, he can probably then ask HER to move out if she refuses. Most betrayed husband's might fare better if they could actually reasonably and calmly deliver an ultimatum and stick to it but few really can or do and the situations is so dynamic that I don't find advising it worthwhile. Instead you demand it and if she says, "or what" the betrayed husband says "I'm not sure - but I'm not going to be rubbing your feet for now and I'm not going to be enabling this betrayal any further and then I don't know yet". It's better than an ultimatum, followed quickly by a backtrack. In my experience, the guys that can MAKE their wives dump the OM and return to the marriage aren't posting on a forum for help (and it usually involves a threat of violence -which is not a truly productive way to restore a loving marriage).
I agree that with whatever you do you see it through. Bluffing undermines authority and respect. Ultimatums to me are the LRT. When all else faled. Why do you think these guys are posting then?Whatever you do....don't expect to confront her with anger and have her cry and cave. She will meet your upset with her own suppression over-anger which just blows it up into a completely unproductive mess. Be smart. Be intelligent. Handle the crisis in your life and marriage with manly calmness and strategic thinking instead of basal rage and/or anger. She's not your property. You are hurt but that doesn't justify yelling, punching walls, throwing things, etc (and you'll likely end up with the cops called on you and hurt any legal case as well)
Here I totally disagree with you. 100%. Anger and hurt should be shown, to me it is a sign that I DO care. Your suggestion reminds me of one the issues I have with children nowadays. In my days a belt was a deterrent. A mother with a slipper was like a sniper and the line ... wait till your father gets home changed the colour of your pants. No we hear about time outs and special places and i look at the kids now and see them messed up. Since when does trying to educate your kids to become persons with integrity, dignity and honesty now have a potential to be sued by your own kids? I think the psychologists or whatever lost the plot here. In my days there was crazy and you knew to stay the hell away from crazy. Now there are unpronouncable names. Going back to your comments. I think anger and expressions of anger need to be let out and the person feel this pain. So long as no physical aggression is carried out. I consider myself a passionate person and marriages sometimes need passion in all its forms. Once again within certain constraints.Consider this - a decade later my wife is astonished at how calm, considerate and thoughtful I was where, when looking back, she remembers how awful and hurtful she was behaving towards me.
TBH that worked for you and I respect that, doesnt mean I think it works for everyone or is me. I blew a gasket when I was hurt and so did she. The thing was what happened afterwards. I then started to layout some DB. You have to understand that presuming you are an american you have that US mentality (no disrespect). That wouldnt work in other cultures. Doesnt mean your way is the only or correct way. It's a demonstration of strength in crisis.
Could be. Ultimately, your wife is absolutely free to leave you and never apologize or care at all about how she treated you.
True If you go nuts on her - she'll just use that to further rational and justify her abuse of you.
Could be The cage door is open. You are not her keeper.
I told her exactly that I had opened the cage door and she was free to choose. Stay or leave. I felt we had no future but it was up to her. You are deeply hurt and prefer she stay and actually commit to rebuilding your marriage together but you will be OK either way....
I am hurt but also tired (told her as well). Told her I wanted peaceful and happy life with or without her and if she did stay it would be from zero, reconstruct but M with different dynamics. Ones that worked. She chose to stay and has changed many things. baby steps.her, not so much. A wayward spouse's ONLY route to happiness and redemption (biblically - if you are into that stuff at all) is back through their betrayed spouse. It's really hard but in your hurt see if you can muster up some pity for them because the sinner surely doesn't recognize the consequences of their own sin.
I disagree with you here and it sounds controlling and condescending. I am not a very biblical person so do not see sinners. She said that what she did was wrong. I know that what I did was wrong. I have to believe her as she has to believe me ... trust. Without it there is no future together. She does not need my forgiveness to move ahead nor I hers. We need trust in each other. To me trust at this level is like forgiveness on steriods. Much more complete. Your wife is completely lost right now and you are the only person that can help her.
We are both lost on many levels. Many marriages have more issues than just A. its just that when A happens all the rest take a back seat. I need her as much as she needs me. Thats what M are all about. Teamwork. I always thought that in M the S's need to stand next to each other not behind or infront. She may resist but there in no real point to anger or yelling. She may think she's all cool (way wards are delusional) but she is truly wallowing in a pit. She is or will punish herself enough when she sees and witnesses what you have put yourself through for her (and she won't realize that until she's in love with you again, which can't happen until the affair ends and you began rebuilding your relationship).
I do not know where you want to go with this. it seems logical enough. In my case my W is suffering with her own demons or problems but we have and are moving on beyond what you mention here. I am dealing with mine in my way and I let her deal with hers. I cannot fix her, she needs to do this herself. I can only standby and help her when she needs me. We both need to make this journey alone to find each other along the way. If that is how it will play out.The whole respect thing - it's a red herring. Respect yourself by controlling yourself. Stand up for yourself and your boundaries in a firm but calm manner. You can't make anyone respect you. She'll only respect you later if you behave in a respectful manner. IMO, punishing her isn't your job.
A number of points here and most I agree with as they stand to reason. About being calm. I do however disagree with making people respect you. You can. I think what you mean is that you cant force them. They must do so voluntarily. On how to get a WS to respect their LBS ... I agree in general with sandis rules and the DB techniques here, you gain respect by giving respect. Your last comment ... agreed she is doing unfortunately a great job on her own.Max
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Hi Is,
Seriously, I suggest you do NOT put recorder.
You sound like things are going OK. Your past history should be enough to work on, on detaching and making W come to you. That you both have issues to resolve.
Doing the recorder thing is not the answer.
If she finds out how many steps back will your R take.
Max
I must admit that IS, your last post is a bit of a 180 from where I thought you were. I'd leave the Intel for a while right now as it could do more damage than good. Seems the EA isn't confirmed after all.
NDY and Max - Thanks again - all input is appreciated
The recorder is placed. She asked me to check over her car as she had accidently damaged the underside going over a kerb - so I took the opportunity.
It looks exactly like a thumb drive and I dont think W is computer savvy enough to realize what it is even if she finds it. I will leave it in about 1 week and see what transpires.
NDY - My IC called it an inappropriate friendship (EA in all but name!) and said W would justify all her actions because she was/is going through hell mentally/emotionally.
OM has at least a crush on W, W is more circumspect, batting back his replies/advances.
Their convos will reveal more of the truth.
I have sat next to W this afternoon watching TV and W got one or two pings on her phone. Its hard to know whether they are texts or FB updates. She has become FB obsessed over the last 4 years with 280 FB friends and she likes or comments on a lot of other peoples posts, and might be getting replies to her comments or texts from any of her friends or indeed OM. I just have to ignore it.
There has been no disrespect today.
4 years ago W had no IPad, was not on FB, and had a crappy cellphone. Social media in my view distorts the real world and facilitates conditions for Spouses to become wayward.
I also found out that OM has 2 SS as well as his D12.
PS W said I looked good last night before I went out - positive
Social media in my view distorts the real world and facilitates conditions for Spouses to become wayward.
I agree. I shun social media for this reason. I know that there is some upside, and many people feel it is like a tool, neither good nor bad, that it all depends on the user. But people say that about guns too, doesn't mean I want to keep a loaded gun in my nightstand either.
This rant is slightly off topic, but one thing that's bothered me lately is society's acceptance of divorce. I can't change that. Or can I? I can at least cast my vote, right?
I am currently toying with the idea of not being friends with anyone that has initiated a divorce or had an affair. I feel it is my responsibility to cast my vote to reinstate the societal deterrent on these detestable acts. Maybe in this day and age that seems bizarre. I keep coming back to a few things though...I wouldn't be friends with a murderer or rapist either. I'm not saying divorce and affairs are at the same level exactly, but to me they are across the line of what types of people I will allow in my life. And if more people felt this way there might be enough deterrent to make people think twice. Instead it's too convenient to put a heartwarming chicken soup story on facebook and talk about their growth and everyone applauds. It makes me sick. Hell with all of them. I'm out. They can all cheat on each other. I'd rather have 2-3 friends in my life that agree this is garbage than be mr. popular among a group that behaves this way.
Where it is tough is that my father cheated on my mother. I think it is despicable...but you only get one father...and this was decades ago...so I haven't cut him out of my life. I guess this makes me hypocritical. This is why I'm still struggling with this concept. It's not easy.
But back to social media, yeah, it's not the devil, but it sure has potential for disaster. Hard to imagine being able to trust enough to feel comfortable with a partner spending a lot of time on FB. And I don't think I'm paranoid. These days I think I'm just realistic. Anyway, we'll see what the future holds...take care!
Hi IS,
Advice here is given freely and unconditionally.
There is obviously no obligation to follow advice.
Just one question, how does spying and knowing the marital status of OM help get her back?
Max
Zues- I agree, agree, agree, agree with everything you just said - tough one about your father though
Max - recording will give me evidence/knowledge of an EA/PA and whether to treat W as a WAW or a WW. I will record for one week and then retire the device.
More to the point W went out this afternoon to a local Art gallery with S11. S11 is into art and they have been planning to go for a while.
They get back and W says 'you might not like this but we just bought an original painting for £750 ($1150)
I was a little taken aback as just two days ago W was saying how she didnt have much money this month and maybe we needed to not splash out on the kids this Xmas. She wanted to take money from the joint account to pay for kids presents.
Background: W isnt very 'homely', and rarely spends money on the house. We only have one other expensive painting by Damian Hurst worth £5000 which we chose back in 2012 after we reconciled.it was a bit symbolic. Also We have been saving for a year or more to get a conservatory for the house. She was putting any spare money into this saving account.
I validated and said it was fine and Im sure she chose a beautiful painting and I couldnt wait to see it.
She said things like 'its my money and I can afford it' 'I feel bad spending that sort of money at this time but its beautiful' 'Anyway you might take the 'Damian Hurst' (i.e. hen we separate.) - this comment p!ssed me off.
I didnt know what to say except to validate and tried to keep the conversation away from a discussion on who gets what after separation. I made reassuring noises and looked interested in what she bought and found a picture of the painting on the internet.
I'm a little saddened as the last big painting purchase was a joint purchase after reconciliation and this one she chose herself.
She later said 'It was the painting that S11 and I liked the most - thats why I bought it.'
She was also then straight onto FB to tell everyone - except she didnt mention the artist or cost. I am also pretty sure she was FB messaging OM with the news. She was texting while talkng to S8 and I came and stood next to her and saw a nonsense cartoon that OM had sent her last Sunday. So on the one hand she was FB messaging him but on the other hadnt done so for a week - but she is probably calling him from the car.
Dont know what to think!
Hi IS
Well at least she still values your opinion. But I'd leave it there. IMO the "I can afford it" is, as you said earlier her in the frame of mind that you are no longer a couple. Well ok. But was it her money? I mean did she earn it herself? If so then fine. She can sped her own money any way she likes.
But what was the reason for being frugal at Christmas?
Just to be clear her comments about the purchase were from a guilty stance (wanting me to give her the ok?)
There was no vindictiveness to her comments...in fact she came back into kitchen and said ' I feel guilty .....blah blah, I feel bad , blah blah'
Later she was checking her online banking accounts and I saw she has £6k in a saving account, his is around what I was expecting.
In the long run it doesn't matter that she spent this money. It will leave us with less cash but we have an asset.
Though I do see it as a negative that she didn't ask me before purchase, as she probably would have asked me before BD.
Hi NDY
We split monthly outgoings between us with her paying about 60% and me 40%. She earns about 30% more than me.
After my monthly commitments I have enough for spending on myself for gal , my hobbies, clothes etc but not much to save.
W earns more and when things were good between us would save for the big items 'holidays, any renovations on house, and latteRly a conservatory.
So it's her money in her savings account, but technically it's our money and if we D then all assets are split 50:50
The frugal thing at Christmas was because her current account was running low. Remember she went away for 4/5 weekends after BD including a spa weekend costing probably £250, the all day gym experience was £100. She also buys Xmas presents for friends as well as family, and has done some limited clothes shopping probably spending about £200. She expected there to be about £750 spare cash in joint account but I had spent £500 on a new oven and other household essential stuff. This was a surprise to her.
Hey IS,
Its your life and fair do's.
I just think you should focus more on yourself and less on your W or OM.
Regardless of whether she is leaving for herself or OM the bottom line is she is leaving. You have enough history to know you need to protect yourself and making important decisions.
To continue with this behaviour means less working on yourself and leaving yourself emotionally unprotected.
If you want your W back I dont think CSI is your best option.
Peace Max
Hi IS
I don't get this. We have similar lifestyles but my ExW's OM is clearly an ego boost whereas I can't see that in your W's OM (if that's what he is).
I kinda get the impression your reading too much into him. Now, that doesn't mean it's not an inappropriate R she has with him that should stop but it doesn't have the hall marks IMO.
I think you may be looking in the wrong direction. Idk but it just doesn't pass the smell test. Know what I mean?
NDY - I agree entirely . I first characterised it as a non-typical EA but I guess inappropriate friendship is nearer the mark. Intel will sus out if it is more.
But it's still gutting to read a text from W .... 'Missing you, *****' with a teary faced emoji and to sit next to her while she texts him.
Today has been the best since BD, with near normality except for lack of affection, and physical touch and the convo surrounding her extravagant purchase.
and you still have doubts?
'Missing you, *****' with a teary faced emoji and to sit next to her while she texts him.
Really?
Ok I take it back. Man I'm spinning here. One minute I think it's all nothing then the next I think yea, full on EA. Sorry buddy but I don't know what to say at this point. I'm here for you but I'm lost.
So I get up today and W is being nice and jolly and trying to find a 5k Santa run she can do before Xmas. She tries to get the boys involved and eventually persuades them to do it with her.
NB I tried to do a similar thing 4 weeks ago but S11 was reluctant so I didn't push it.
Anyway she can't find an event that is close enough to home and fits with her and the boys schedule. Then she finds one and seeks me out to tell me, all excited.
Then she semi reluctantly invites me with the disclaimer ' well you are taking the boys away the following weekend ' ' so I want to do something with the boys'
I think I will accept and do the run.
The weekend away with the boys is in London. I haven't invited her to the weekend away in London as it would involve sharing a bed in a family hotel room. Also she is going to a Xmas party at work.
I could change my date to the following weekend and invite her but she would have to share my bed. I know it s against DB philosophy - pursuing etc and it is pressure but she can say no - no big deal.
It's also her birthday weekend and traditionally W and I have spent it in London with me treating her to a special weekend away just before Xmas.
Once before we went as a family, yes in 2011 after the first DB. But back then we were still sharing a bed.
Crumbs and more crumbs. You're not thinking of buying her a birthday present are you? The way I see it is she can spend as much money as she likes, but you have to account for every penny you have spent. Sounds like a control issue there.
Texting OM. I would say, and it's only my opinion, when it gets to phrases like 'I miss you' etc., it's a EA. Let's face it, when was the last time she said that to you? My W used to say that to me all the time if i'd been away with work, but slowly, over the past 18 months, she's more likely to have complained if I went away. Beware. You can't get too hung up on this guys looks/size/mental ability, it's what's underneath that she's finding attractive right now.
Ok scrap my idea above.
It turns out W plans to go out with her best GFs on her birthday and is then hoping for us all to go watch Star Wars the day after - the girls night out is new to me but I had already suggested the movie day.
There was mixture of shyness, regret and maybe guilt when she told me her plans for her birthday . Obviously normally we celebrate it together - she might suggest a birthday lunch with the boys.
Also the subject of Xmas presents came up. A few weeks ago she said she wanted us to still get each other Xmas and birthday presents but less than normal. Usually we spoil each other on our birthday and Xmas.
Today she said she was struggling to get me something as I had updated my wardrobe really well and she was struggling for ideas. Normally her main presents for me are clothes.
I said I would give her birthday present early as she might want it over the party season. She got a little worried I had spent a lot on her but I said its one biggish present.
Later she said she thought Xmas pressure was over ( we have bought/ordered most of our presents for family and the boys this weekend) but now she had pressure to buy me something nice and I had already got a fine set of clothes.
I validated and suggested alternatives.
This whole episode coupled with yesterday's extravagant purchase of a painting is a bit odd.
She has changed from the rebellious, resentful, disrespectful W to one showing regret, maybe guilt.
Rebellious: 5 weekends away with friends and family
Resentful: she resented my presence in her car going to the gym, and going to a fireworks display
Disrespectful: her attitude and tone over minor indiscretions around the house.
This weekend she hasn't gone out drinking with friends - first time for 2 months
There has been no disrespectful attitude or language for a week
And no obvious resentment.
Ok I need to back off a bit.
I'm guilty of applying pressure, pursuing.
W and I went through our diaries to make sure we had each other's plans sorted.
Back in early part of this year, maybe February W wrote this in my diary on her birthday date.
19th December
My lovely wife's birthday!
Keep day free to totally spoil her!
Because I love her soooooo much!
She read this again in my diary a few weeks ago and today I effectively reminded her of it, without actually mentioning it. She knows what she wrote.
I said what are you doing on your Birthday when are you going to the party.
She said I thought you already knew, I said I've only got what you wrote in January.
She said maybe we can go out for lunch - all of us. Don't pull a sad face.....
I wasn't pulling a sad face.
Anyway time to back off for a few hours.
Another bizarre conversation with W. Sometimes I think she is sooooo naive!
I'm getting my lunch when she starts to talk about a male friend at the gym who is infatuated with a married woman who goes to the same gym.
W tells me that he is infatuated but just wants to be this woman's friend and now she is telling him to back off and it's led to a big falling out that other people have noticed. This woman has unfriended him on FB and might change gyms and he is upset etc.
I say that he needs to back off and he is trying to ruin a marriage. W defends him (he only wants to be her friend) but agrees he needs to forget about her and move on but he can't.
I had to be careful and not come across too judgemental or critical of her friend. The conversation continued with us both agreeing that he needs to back off from this woman. He must have come across as pursuîng her too much and she has told him to back off and he hasn't, so she put her foot down. W used the word stalker but also suggested this woman wasn't blameless as she had said this guy was hot after too many drinks during a night out. She said the guy had made latched onto small compliments from this woman
I wanted to say that her friend was a potential marriage breaker and just wanted to get this woman into bed, that he was morally wrong etc but felt I should hold my tongue.
This convo convinces me that W sees her friendship with OM as perfectly normal, and not inappropriate. To her OM is just a friend. If it was more would she have told me this conversation?
OR...
Your wife is fully aware that it could have been/probably was you changing her Facebook password last week. Waywards are paranoid fools. Even with a great sell job she is still not 100% sure it wasn't you, soooo she goes into partner mode and acting all reassuring and cooperative.
This discussion about the woman at the gym is a set up. She is reestablishing her arguments for keeping her "friend" herself no matter what you saw. They likely know it wasn't much that you could have seen (because they probably put very little in writing ever)....so, she only needs to maintain that she can stay "friends" with him if and when you confront her.
Hope you are securing your computer. She may be or start snooping on you to see if you are on to her/them.
If you go back looking for the thing you hid and it's gone - you'll know she is reading here.
Last thought - I know you say you aren't that religious but did it not strike you as odd that shortly after wondering how the heck you were going to get access to your wife's car parked right out in front of the house that your wife then ASKS you to take a look at her car? That's God working for you. God hates divorce. At the very least it should have gave you the feeling that it was the right thing to do.
*funny - if she has been reading here what a great thing for her to do...ask you to take a look at her car and plant that little device asap so she knows where it is and she'll just stage the nicest conversations for a week in her car and everything will go back to normal. Trust me - I've seen, heard about and read the most messed up extremes way wards go to to keep their secret. They even have wayward forums and give each other tips. You've been posting on DB for years - she could have discovered your posting here years ago. Don't presume anything.
She's got you clucking like a chicken. Those must be huge crumbs. IS, go back and re-read sandi2's thoughts on manipulation. All I can see is bluff and smokescreen. She'll introduce 'friends stories' as a way of getting you off the trail. Beware bud, beware.
As always I appreciate all input from the vets on here.
It helps to balance my opinion and set me on the right road to DB.
GB - The car incident was real S11 was in the car at the time and a chunk of bodywork was ripped from underneath the car. I prefer your God working for me theory
I am trying to do what works, and as Mr Bond says 'measure everything I do as to whether it brings me closer to R or not'
I prefer the W that isn't rebellious, disrespectful, and resentful even if she has me entirely in the friend zone for now. I can work on being the man only a fool would leave, try to make this a Xmas to remember
More positive vibes - I played Nerf gun wars with the kids, W was watching and enjoying the boyish laughs and screams around her - she wanted to join in but we told her it was boys only.
I cooked a meal for all of us and she thought it fantastic and 'it should be my signature dish'
Also she had worrisome news of her Father taken ill and in hospital for a few days so I was able to support her and validate her feelings.
Also for the last two evenings we have all sat around TV watching it with me cuddled up to S8 on the floor....he made a little be on the floor and joined him in it. W was enjoying these family moments.
W is also asking me to help with grocery shopping, and other stuff around house (not excessive, just what I did before BD) This is a 180 as 3 weeks ago she was trying to do everything like a super single mom.
I shall continue with my DBing , working on me to be confident, watch for any disrespect