Lost Hope (5) - DivorceBusting.com

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Hi starting a new thread, but wanted to just give quick background and links..

Husband and I lost money on a home and moved our family (twin boys) into my families home with the hope of saving money. Health issues, work stresses, compounded and my husband moved out 4 months ago. He initially said he wanted space. It is then that I joined these boards with some hope. But as the weeks and months went on, we communicated less and less. A few weeks ago he said he does not want work on our marriage. He feels like we are too incompatible and told me that he could not survive in our marriage. We had tried marriage counseling but it was too late. I went back and looked up some old texts and he really was completely checked out.

Now I just feel confused and hopeless. Very angry and regretful too.

Link to last thread..

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2625206&#Post2625206

Ok, so I would love feedback. Anything right now. How you guys got through this stage. I'm basically a wreck and would love to know what to do....

There were 2 times in the summer, I had asked husband for child support and he refused. Both times turned into fights, one with me becoming crazy banshee. Other then those 2 times we have been pretty amicable. The things is, I have been pretty resentful about it. Especially since he recently went on a long vacation supposedly with a friend. (In the past He would always tell me we never had money to go away). This issue has been eating me up inside. He also told me 2 weeks ago he did not want to reconcile, and the only thing that is bothering him about his decision is what he stands to lose financially.

A month ago for those that remember, DB coach recommended an apology letter 1st and then, another polite letter requesting child support.

Basically I have been so angry and hurt and he has been so neglectful of kids and cold and angry I never felt the timing was right for the apology letter. I felt like he would think it was to get him back since I kept trying to convince him to stay in relationship prior.

I also never sent the polite letter requesting CS. I don't know why. I didn't want the delay. I feel like I can't talk to him and felt like he would refuse like he did before. I also felt like if I didn't just jump into the water it would continue to get delayed.

So While I had a surge of numbness I marched over to court and put in paper work and filed for CS and SS. He does not know yet.

I feel sick to my stomach. I keep thinking I should have waited till after holidays or talked to him first. I was fearful, because I was told by counselor that this proves I am primary custody holder and needed some type of legal documentation or else he can make any claims he wanted to.

I do not want him as my enemy and I do not want to start the legal process. I am so sad because now it is my reality and I am just scared. Perhaps limbo was better. Please tell me how aftermath was for everyone.

I also feel bad because looking at past texts before he made decision to leave and he was just so cold and neglectful of me. How did someone that once loved me so much to the point that he cried when I was in pain during labor, suddenly hate me or perhaps become indifferent torwards me.

I basically feel guilty for filing for child support.

Julie - I don't have any advice as I haven't handled my situation well at all but I just wanted to offer my support. I haven't pushed the CS issue with my H either and I understand your hesitation. I'd like to keep my family out of the legal process all together if possible. I'm proud of you the for filing. You did the right thing for your kids and should be proud. Maybe think of it as a benefit to you rather than hurting him.

You have to do what is in yours and your kids best interest. Would you consider letting him know you filed? I do know hurt me tremendously to find out H filed for divorce and didn't tell me. Being served out of the blue hurt so badly. Just a thought, Julie. I'm proud of you for finally standing up for yourself and your children.

You did the right thing. A father(or mother) should never withhold support for their children.

Ep,

Yes I will tell him. I don't have much time to even do so. I feel bad that I did not tell him first. It was something that I just did, because I had been delaying for so long. Almost like jumping in a pool of cold water. Any advice on how or what to say? My mother said, just be direct and unapologetic like he is to me. "I asked you for it before, and I have to think about me"

Vanilla said it correctly. I do have boundaries, but I tolerate a lot and I just can't assert myself and then end up taking the flight response.

I do feel guilty because he was paying for things when I asked, (maybe out of guilt, maybe he still cares, or because I think he was afraid I would do something like this)

Also, now there is no chance of reconcilation. Although he already told me there was none anyhow. And now we have to start the court proceedings and it's because of me.

"I asked you for it before, and I have to think about me"

I wouldn't apologize, justify, or explain in any way. Just inform. Wouldn't even explain why I was informing (I thought you should know...) as that's all implied, and he'd just sneer. He won't like it. Doesn't matter. Just "FYI- I filed some paperwork with the courts including a request for child support."

There's no way he's going to like it so don't worry about trying. And there's no way he's going to not take it poorly so the best you can do is use as few words as possible so there's less he can twist around.

As for R, unfortunately it is a long shot for all of us, and you're right, the D process isn't very bonding. It's true that he might use this as proof that you're the devil. On the other hand it might be upsetting to him at a profound level as well and it could be the consequence that alerts him that he could lose you forever and that it's not all rainbows and unicorns. Don't get me wrong, I'm pessimistic about everyone's marriage from working out these days, and I don't know that hope is particularly useful. I'm in the camp of giving up hope for R and simply being the best person you can be for you. Learning from your mistakes is part of that. And while I've been pretty quiet lately I will say that I've been following your sitch and you're doing amazing.

Julie. You did the right thing!! For yourself and more importantly for your kids!!!!

Why oh why would you feel bad about this? I ask that but I know I hesitate every time I have to ask H for money. I still dont want to upset him or get him mad. Wow hard pattern to break.

It is their responsibility to look after their children - they aren't doing it emotionally and if we didn't get legal support they wouldn't do it financially

I think you will sleep well tonight

Also, now there is no chance of reconcilation. Although he already told me there was none anyhow. And now we have to start the court proceedings and it's because of me.

This is EXACTLY how I felt the day after I signed the papers. I felt like i was helping him along in the disssolution of our marriage which is what he wants but not what i want
But why do you say there is now absolutely no chance of reconciliation?
And do you HAVE to start proceedings?

JPEG,

I think once I file for support they send him the petition and then we have to go to judge right? He will not want to pay Spousal so lawyers will have to get involved. If he does have to pay spousal it would only be short amount of time so he would want it to go to court quickly would be my guess. I will not file for divorce or separation but he will after this, because nothing holding him back.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

Sweetheart, there wasn't anything other than Fin advantage. The longer you felt he might R, the more fin advantage he had.

Please have good L. I say it several times, cards, close, chest in any order.

Respect.

Self Respect, this is your future and your kids look after it. Be momma bear.

V

Zues, thanks for posting and for support. I hope you and your family are doing well. I feel like I have been having some good days of detachment and hope for a future with or without him. But then there are some days I just feel like a horrible person and really mourn for my husband.

I regret this act but not sure why. I can't say it was impulsive as it's been 4 months. Was it antagonistic? Feels a bit like a betrayal, which doesn't make sense because he is the one that left (although still no proof of affair)

Perhaps it's because I just couldn't be that positive, friendly, validating, person that I was advised to be in order to effectively divorce bust. I wasn't big enough or humble enough, or selfless enough. I have pride and just couldn't be a friend despite his rejections of me.

DB is about doing that which works.

Who says that calling him to account isn't a 180? A stance which shows you are assertive and asking for that which you want? directly.

V

Vanilla,

Yes. Thanks for the reminder. I have to remind myself of this. Sometimes I go into denial, because there was a time he had great love for me and it is hard to accept that this actually ended. That we will go forward as enemies is very hard to accept.
He flat out told me the only thing that bothers him in all of this is the financials he will lose. I also was reading our texts from before he left and can see how hard I was trying and how he was just gone.

I want so bad to believe that he still has love for me and will one day deeply regret this. Sometimes I feel that he will only regret it if I prove to him what a selfless person I am and be patient with him. Truth is he takes advantage of and is actually rude to the people that enable him (his mom) but ended up giving in (but complaining about) to the people that made sure his actions had consequences (my mom)

I understand your hesitation to do something legal, I really do. But think of it this way: If you don't, you are 1) not looking out for the children, 2) enabling him to spend his money on himself and potentially OW instead, and 3) holding on to him by a false sense of connection.

And he is not going to respect or love you any more for it. I promise.

Consult with a L, if you have been deserted, you can get help through various organizations. You could contact a women's shelter and see which lawyers they normally work with, even if you're not homeless.

Thanks painter. I need these reminders. I always put my kids first in past, so why are they not coming first now? They have the right to financial support from both parents. I have consulted with a really great lawyer who I will retain when the time comes, which it seems to be. our case is actually pretty simple as we don't have much to divide up.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

DB is about doing that which works.

Who says that calling him to account isn't a 180? A stance which shows you are assertive and asking for that which you want? directly.

V

Throughout our whole relationship, I was pretty assertive and opinionated. he loved and respected me. After kids were born our relationship went downhill I tried to change this past year and basically became an insecure mess that kept trying to make him happy and that didn't work. So will see how this goes.

The first two times I asked for support, I was so weak and passive aggressive. I just figured he would do what's right regardless. A lot of people in this world do not though. I know I would have and hate when other people don't.

Do you agree with ep and zues, that a brief statement telling him I filed for support is a good idea?

I have to get back to where I was headed, in which I was detaching and had no real attachment to outcome of his decision.

Jpeg, I keep thinking I should go back to court and see if they will let me take forms back.

More often then not, There is one part of me that thinks he chose to leave he should pay CS. He has been neglectful and there is possible affair. We are incompatible and I am better off without him. He is the bad guy. It is not fair that he walked away and left his responsibilities for my family to take care of.

There is another part of me that loves him and wants nothing more then for us to reconcile. He has a lot of great qualities but i just brought him down. I never built him up enough. I could have done so much more. This is my fault. Im the bad guy that started it all. That he does love me and with time and space he will remember the good things. I am being unfair by filing and by doing it the way I did.

I know....crazy right?

Julie I am no where near be able to provide wise advise but I DO totally understand how you are feeling I felt/feel the exact same way. I wanted to do the same thing. Go back and unsigned the papers.
I feel like I have played right into H plan. He wanted me to start the whole legal process so he wouldn't be the bad guy so to nudge ( or push ) me to he stopped paying his share of expenses. I just wish I could have afforded to do nothing. But then I KNOW my H is living with OW and spending money on her/them that should be put towards his kids so..,..
People have been telling me for months that I must be smart and look after my finances and those of the kids .
I don't know what is going to happen but we have both taken a step out of limbo and are moving forward

Thanks JPEG.

I know you understand, and I really like your advise because your going through something similar (although I have no proof of affair which for me would make things black and white and much easier).

It's funny cause when I read your sitch, I thought no brainer. She needs to take him for what he's worth, she deserves better. When it's me I think I'm to blame, and I drove my husband to this,

Regardless, husband made choice to leave. I don't know why I am being weak and enabling this behavior. By doing this, I am a character that I don't like or respect. I have also greatly devalued myself.

I need to commit this saying a relative of mine says to her bf...."I love you, but I love me more"

Hi Julie,

Just caught up with your new thread. I understand your views but you have to realise that no matter what happens between the two of you, your H is responsible for bring up our two lovely boys. By law he has no choice. I think your H reacts the way it is because you are setting boundaries and you are in the process of becoming a new super, confident Julie and he doesn't like that.

You really need CS to help you to bring your kids up. Let your L deals with everything. Keep your chin up. You are an amazing woman :-)

Julie, I have nothing to add that hasn't been said. I agree with Zues, send him a quick text, no apologies or explanation, just an FYI. I agree with everyone else, you need to do what's right legally for your children. Do it now before he spends all of his money or loses his job or disappears or who knows what else. If it makes you feel any better, OW will be less attracted to a man who has less $ to spend.

Julie - I just wanted to offer my support again. You are doing the right thing by you and your children. You are an amazing mother for putting them first. I agree with Rouky, H is not like the new confident, strong, woman you are becoming but we do

Originally Posted By: JulieH

I basically feel guilty for filing for child support.

Child support is for the kids not for you. I completely understand why you might feel guilty, but you need to put it into perspective.

Your sitch is so similar to mine and I feel for what you are going through. Right now I am in a very terrified state of mind and I am trying to work through it, so I don't have too much advice to give, except that there will be a light at the other side of this. I truly believe that, and I see it in those who have already made it to the other side.

Get a lawyer and protect yourself and your children. He is going to try to guilt you and blame you and make you feel like you are the one who did this, but they are all tactics. Just because you get a lawyer doesn't mean you have to pursue, all it means is that someone is watching your back when your emotions keep you from seeing the bigger picture.

Mustard seed,

Sometimes I see a similarity and then sometimes I will read something by a male poster about his wife and realize that I was pretty awful too.

I have no Intel whatsoever and that makes it difficult for me because to me cheating is black and white and then I know to proceed agressively and with my own interests at heart. When I think I was at fault, or contributed greatly I feel like I want to try to keep things amicable.

You are right. my emotions are keeping me from seeing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that I need to move on, and this legal crap is my reality and can't be denied anymore.

I don't want him as official enemy.

He has been nice and we have not had too many conflicts as of yet. Especially now that I know he does not want reconciliation.

He knows he will lose financially. He has pointed it out numerous times, so will this really be a big surprise to him?

I think that whether you contributed to the breakdown or not does not change the fact that you need to have someone looking out for you. Being amicable does not mean rolling over. It means that you want what is fair. You want your marriage in tact and your kids to be provided for. If he is bailing on the first part of this requires a certain safety net to ensure the second piece is not being neglected.

If his claim is that he is unhappy in the marriage so financially you should struggle to meet the needs of your children, what does that say to you about the kind of person he is? You can be amicable by having a lawyer determine what is fair and explaining to H where the money is going. Legally I don't think you owe him that much explanation but it might make it easier to have an amicable relationship if you disclose that. If he has a problem with that then you know he isn't trying to be amicable, and you won't be able to negotiate with him.

The money is for your children, not for you.

Thanks again mustard seed. I know it's his obligation. I Dont understand why he does not see this... He has left his family for his in laws to support and provide for. He feels like we are doing ok because we have family to help. We lack for nothing, but my family did not choose to get married and have kids. He did. If I i told you his level of education and salary you would be shocked. In my mind, this type of behavior occurs in fathers that are in and out of prison and gangs etc. I just don't understand where it comes from and want to know why.

I really can't comprehend the level of selfishness. Especially the past 2 years. because he was not like this before. How can someone change this much? Or perhaps he was like this...and I reacted to it in past and we argued and built up resentments. Or perhaps I just was in denial. He told me I don't see us as incompatible because in past I was happy because I always got my way and he suffered to keep peace.

Or Maybe he was asking these same questions about me after the kids were born and after miscarriages. ( I was no angel either...although at the time I thought I was reacting to his selfishness and there is some truth to that, but only some)

But I have to remind myself. He left. I didn't.

More importantly I have to remind myself that when I think about him, I feel like I'm mentally stuck in quicksand. I come up with all these diagnosis and scenarios in past and made up scenarios in future. And what's the point. They get me no where!!!! These whys are just emotional baggage that is draining me.

But when I think of me and kids and work and the people on this site I am filled with hope. I need more GAL to occupy me with. New friends would be great, but really hard with the kids. I need to keep focused on me. I understand what this means more and more and just need to implement and learn how to change my thought patterns.

Julie, there is a good conversation going on in Sunny's thread on 'surviving the big D'. Check it out and hang in

So apparently the paperwork got mailed a lot quicker then I expected...he called me today and was actually sensible. Talked about how we will save legal fees if we do this through mediator. Telling me how I will have to be able to account for all of my expenses. That he has been giving kids money and kept account for everything, so what I am doing is a waste of money in legal fees. That he wants more visitation. That he cannot pay 25% or he will be living at mothers forever.

I wasn't expecting phone call and 2 of us ended up arguing. I complained about him leaving us for my family to support he complained about nasty remarks I made. I did same.

I said he is the one that said he does not want to work on reconciliation. He said I get everything wrong and that he said he CAN'T work on reconciliation. And that is our problem...that I don't hear what he is saying. ????????

He basically pointed out what a terrible wife I was and that I did nothing for him as the provider (I worked part time and took care of kids). I pointed out all of the bad communication tools and failure to recognize the love languages.

He sounded like he was crying at end. (I think he is just upset about money) We don't understand each other and we are at such opposite opinions on everything.

He was definatly acting like I did this impulsively without thought. His fear is court. I know this is his fear.

I'm sorry am writing quickly from phone in dark parking lot. Will come back later.

Hi Julie,

Just checking in after a hiatus from here. I was so happy to read that you filed for CS and are taking care of you and your kids. Your H says so much of the same stuff as mine. Blames it all on me, takes no responsibility, but then will say I am blaming it all on him???

Nice that your H was sensible, though it sounds like he still tried to make you feel guilty for asking him to share in taking care of his kids. Sounds like he makes more than enough to contribute his fair share.

Keep focusing on you and your kids!!

I don't know if sensible was right word. Just calm. Almost like he was trying hard to keep me from getting angry. Felt like there was a lot of underlying threats though. I did end up feeling guilty for our relationship. He kept saying that everyone he tells about my comment that made him leave, feels like it was despicable and horrific. And that he thought long and hard about his decision and worried everyday that he was wrong.

I felt like we were just on 2 different wavelengths. I want so badly to know if there is other woman.

I felt like I just couldn't validate, because at time I just didn't care. But truth is I do, and want nothing more then for him to work on reconciliation. This time around I didn't ask though because in past every time I did I was rejected. There is no hope at this point.

Julie, keep trying. Like you said to me the other day. It seems so straight forward reading someone else's sitch. After reading what you just posted it seems like If you had said those words to H it would not be too late, hope would not be lost. I know it goes against the DB rules but sometimes I get the overwhelming urge to just say it! Say the truth the simple truth of what you are feeling and what you want/hope for

Julie, he was trying to convince you to drop your L. It's all about the money. That's why he stayed calm but that you felt the underlying threats. It's very clear to see from the outside.

When H was in the middle of his A, he hired a L behind my back and we hadn't even agreed to separate. He tried to find a legal way to shut me out of the marital home. He told me I had no rights to our marital home (not true). He tried to get me to sign over the titles to our vehicles. Basically, he went from being a generous, caring person to an enemy who was at war with me without me knowing. I asked him how he could do all of this, and he said 'I had to protect myself'.

I can't imagine that you will have to account for all your expenses and how you spend money. From almost all cases I've seen, there will be a comparison of income and a support formula that is used to decide support obligation of each party, then the difference will be paid to the one who makes less and has custody.

I am so sorry for your argument this is a very difficult time for you be strong

Painter, that is basically what attorney said. On letter, it did say court can override state percent. I worry because I have some money in my accounts, but he does not. I am sure he has been hiding it for a while or has some sort of addiction because he earns 3x my salary and has had no expenses living with family for 2 years.

I think it's all about the money as well. He keeps bringing up an admittedly nasty comment I made because I felt frusturated he was not spending time with the kids and how I never did anything for him.

I kept bringing up fact that we never really worked at reconciliation. We could have went to mc (our counselor was beyond unethical. Even he admits it) we could have moved out of family house and got apt so we could have privacy, we could have went on dates when he left. He never wanted to. Now he is upset over cost???

Thank you for pointing out what you see as outsider. I keep questioning my sanity.

It's natural to question your sanity when Dr. Jekyll turns into Mr. Hyde... You have an emotional attachment to him (or to the man he used to be), he doesn't seem to have any to you (or at least not in his current state of mind), and you didn't share in the process that brought him there, so you're left shell-shocked.

It's what so many of us describe as 'my S has been posessed by aliens', 'I don't know him/her anymore' - but it's not something you think can happen to you or your S.

To protect yourself, you have to be constantly aware that he's not looking out for you right now. He's not the man he used to be. Which is so sad, but real.

Talk to your L about the savings so you know what the likely outcome is. Also check if infidelity/desertion matters in your state. And remember that if H has retirement accounts through work, those will also be counted if your savings are counted. Savings of any kind will be part of the settlement, not support calculation.

Basically, get as much info you can so you know what to expect.

Oh, and when your L says the Court can deviate from support guidelines, it normally means they can set support higher if one party has a higher income than the top of their table, or take into consideration very special circumstances.

Thanks painter. A while ago Lawyer had said no worries when it came to child support or custody since he left and I have always been primary care giver. I was a little confused when petition in mail wanted to know my savings and said that court makes ultimate decision regarding percent. Did not think I would get much alimony which I am not expecting. Also said he will have to pay majority of legal fees.

I still fear that he will make a big custody battle. He said if he has to pay full percentage he is going to want more visitation. I told him I want him to have more visitation , but really I worry he will fight for 50/50. He has also made comments fht he doesn't want my son living in my families house. That environment is not healthy??? We are messy and do not have fashionable furniture decor but still. Basically he keeps saying that through mediation we will be able to compromise but through courts he will get nasty. That's how I took it anyway. When I call him on it he says I misinterpret him and read into things that are not there, and that I always did this.

(I always read into his comments in past as well, which caused a lot of fights. I even sometimes think he is on spectrum but I know everyone makes crazy diagnosis )

I don't even know why I want reconciliation. Is it just the ego thing. I don't want to be rejected? My boys and I have an even better relationship now then before! So what do I even gain with him? He was so difficult to deal with and I was always complaining. I couldn't handle a lot of his flaws in the relationship and was always complaining.

I have no proof of infidelity. We are no fault state. He says I pushed him out.

Jpeg

I have said those words before. He knows where I stand. If I said it again, he would just reject again. He said "I can't work on reconciliation" (vs I wont??? Don't know the real difference but to him there is) I will look weak, and trust me I already do.

Also I feel like when it comes to me he just wants opposite of what I want. The more I want something, the more he is resistant to it.

He only cares about the finances. He doesn't care about me or our relationship. Kids have always been secondary to his own needs.

Originally Posted By: Jpeg

Jpeg and Julie, this is what I did this weekend. And my H has been making so many signs of progress, AND he is still here and still going to MC. I told him I want nothing more than reconciliation. It went VERY VERY badly. I would not recommend this. If he was still the pre-BD H then yes, but trust me, don't do it. Every time I stray from DB it seems in the moment to make perfect sense but then it backfires and I regret it.

Julie, good for you for filing for child support. I also think a mediator is not a bad idea, just find one that you like.

You can always start with mediation (let him pay the fees) and then resort to L if it doesn't work out?

If you truly don't think it's best for the children to spend half their time with him, then document how much (little) time he has spent with them now, what you have done to facilitate them seeing him, and the manner in which he left them behind with you. This could help you show in court (if you end there) that his wish for 50/50 is based on financial considerations and not a genuine desire to maximize time with his children.

Also, if you are in a state that allows it, you could record his statements about threatening to go for 50/50 unless you do what he says. Also make sure you tell your L about it. This kind of documentation can be crucial later, because he is really digging his own grave here.

I've been lurking on this and don't have much valuable to add except to agree with everyone who supports your filing necessary papers for child support and such. If H never comes back you will have to be the primary decision maker anyway and I think that only helps to strengthen you. We have a tendency to want to hedge our decisions against the effect we fear or hope it will have on the WAS. But that's just co-dependency and manipulation or attempt to control in my book.

I think you did the right thing. Do what's right and best for you and the kids. The H can change his mind any time he wants to. But you have to protect yours and the kids' present and future.

Tl2

Thanks for posting. I am happy I filed that paperwork. I feel stronger and safer because hopefully it will establish that I am primary custodian.

That is a really interesting point. I didn't realize what I was doing before was codependent. But your right, I was enabling bad behavior because I didn't want to lose him...his mother does this all the time and I suspect she did this with her husband. He only exploits that. He acknowledged taking advantage of his mother and her need to do everything for everyone because she wants control. He was taking advantage of me as well. I wonder if I did that a lot during relationship?

Also, I don't want someone that doesn't want me. What kind of life is that?
Exhausting. I will never be comfortable.

Painter, great pointers. I wish I was documenting better. But thankfully we have some texts that show this. Husband never really spent much time with kids. If I was sick, he took them to his mothers. Even now when he gets them his mom is the one up early with them, making them breakfast, and giving them baths. It took them a week to even notice he was gone.

by taking them every other weekend, he sees them more then he did before. This was one of our big fights. I resented and often complained that he wasn't around much for kids. His thought was he was out providing and resented my complaining (In my opinion he would go to gym after work or sleep late - go to work late-come home late and by time he came home kids were asleep). I guess we are both right a little.

Well I only recognized that because I did the same thing with my W. When I stopped, and drew a line, and stuck to it, she left. Go figure, eh

Julie- my kids are older but all live at home - took my older boys over a month to notice H wasn't around and even at that they didn't really notice it was because he finally told them he was "needing space" so he would be living at cottage

Tl2, I'm gonna try to catch up with your sitch

JPEG I don't understand that type of neglect and selfishness when it comes to children. Isn't it instinctual that bond? My husband has said "you did nothing for me". I said I raised your sons. He said "that's not for me". It's his flesh and blood. How is it not for him? If he had helped with them I would have been able to do more for him. So simple. it's because they have no clue what it is like when they are little. As I have said, I also work and went back part time when kids were infants and my job is not sedentary... Going to work was a vacation. He now brings this up constantly. That he was out providing and I did little for him as someone that was not main provider. That the floors were never cleaned.
This period of time we both built up so much resentment. He does not understand where I am coming from and I don't understand him.

I know that regarding my husband, he observed some pretty dysfunctional roles. And was lied to by his mom to protect his dad so he thinks his dad's behaviors are norm and that my expectations are over the top. He also doesn't understand why his mom had to do it all and expects it of me. I feel bad for my mil, but I am also resenting her because she enabled everyone in her life and now I have to deal with the fall out.
In my family, my mother was a strong matriarch (and I'm not denying the dysfunction with her) and always got her way, so i am starting to recognize we were doomed to fail. I don't know if my expectations were over the top...but I remember really having great anger torwards him on the days when I was up before 6 with kids (plus nursing at night). Then going to work in afternoon and not coming home till 9. He would sleep in until 12 (sometimes later) and then come home from work at 7 and work a little and watch movies/ play video games at night. It was a struggle to get him to wake up and chip in. And I am still angry at it.

Plus I am frusturated that he is angry at me for it as well. He is not remembering that because his job changed and became more stressful past 2 years and kids got older and became easier for me. So now he resents me and resents that I work part time and feels like I don't contribute. I am really frusturated.

I am also frusturated, because these are universal issues that often come up after small children. They are issues that could have been worked out. I Was really unhappy after kids were born, but I never seriously considered ending the marriage. we could have worked on these issues and I feel like he gave up. He gave up without real counseling (our counselor was very unethical..whole other story) without moving into apt to work on us, without reading any relationship books. He says he talked to a lot of people before hand. I have a strong suspicion these were the (3-4) friends of his that had just recently divorced. In fact our 1 night off together he was hanging out with his divorced friend instead of me. When I complained, I was controlling and preventing him from seeing friends.

Now I villify him to get through this because really I have not had Any control of this situation and must focus on how bad he was too me. The only thing that will upset him is paying me. How sad.

Originally Posted By: mustardseed

Get a lawyer and protect yourself and your children. He is going to try to guilt you and blame you and make you feel like you are the one who did this, but they are all tactics. Just because you get a lawyer doesn't mean you have to pursue, all it means is that someone is watching your back when your emotions keep you from seeing the bigger picture.

Just reread this, and you were right. I left our conversation feeling like I was the one responsible for the demise of our marriage. He kept focusing on a nasty comment I made, that actually had some truth to it..(.complaining that he wasn't spending enough time with kids). I never thought my husband was the manipulative type. Stubborn and obstinate yet, but never manipulative.

JulieH

The best manipulators are very, very subtle and it happens over a period of time (like the "boiling a frog" analogy). Many of them are passive aggressive or have even more severe personality issues. I'm not saying your H is any of that, but if he isn't the kind of person who just lays an issue out on the table if something's wrong and attempt to deal with it or solve it through direct and polite communication, I'd be a little on guard.

I don't have a lot about that in my posts because it's taken me a few months and some IC to see and understand some of how that had been going in our marriage. I'd also caution that a lot of times we're not being manipulated so much as we're manipulating ourselves by having unrealistic expectations and living in a kind of denial because we are sincerely trying to focus on the positive and do good work. Tricky stuff.

Tl2. I'm so confused now. I always though I was passive agressive. Would never have described him that way. Still trying to figure it out. Since he left, no support except for a few purchases that I asked him for. He wants to bargain for less then state mandated percent when he earns 3x my salary,and has no expenses. I would understand this if I was the one that left and cheated on him. But he left me (no proof of affair). My lawyer even said "why does he think he's the only father in state to not have to pay child support?" What is psychology behind that? One counselor thought power struggle. I think it's a weird cheapness and way of being out for himself because he never really iewed us as family..he drives a luxury car so we always took my big car when going places and woulld always ask for my cc to pay gas and say he had no money. He earned 3x my salary! He has always been this way, even when we started dating so I think he's gonna actually have a hard time with a new woman. Hey, thinking of this is making me feel better allready. If there is an affair, she can have him. Let's see how long she puts up with this

the fact that he even has luxury car is insane but that's a whole other story.

I have to stop trying to make sense of it all. It doesn't matter cause it is what it is right? And all I can do is handle things as they come and stop looking for answers cause there probably aren't any.

Julie. After 4 months of not telling me why he left my H finally came up with "I put the kids first ahead of him". He was rarely home, if I didn't put the kids first who would have. I can see how my H felt I didn't praise him enough. He was constantly praised by others for all his community involvement I saw the side of him that came home "after". The exhausted, don't have any energy left, need some quiet time, side. I knew that was just the stage of life we were in. I longed for the day when we could spend time alone together.... Well finally the kids were all old enough and we were spending time together.... But he had "fallen out of love" The whole time however he was telling me he was in love and that we were better than ever. He never shared with me how desperately unhappy he was. He began "looking for happiness" elsewhere and literally planning his escape. The whole while promising me we were okay.

Julie, I keep trying to respond to you and I keep deleting my post because I am hijacking it with my own sitch. But maybe it will help you.

Last night I scrolled back through my old texts - back to Jan-Feb - preBD and I wish I did this sooner. It made me realize that every single thing H had spewed and complained about me was right there in the texts, but in such an innocent and every day way, he twisted everything.

And I was so desperate to save our marriage and I just took it and tortured myself and beat myself up for months. No, I was not perfect. Yes, there was a grain of truth to many of his complaints. But it was not what he said, and it was not my fault. It boils down to he cracked. He lied, he manipulated the truth, he didn't deal with issues in an honest and open manner. He pretended things were ok, or didn't address them fairly, and then when he decided it was too hard he exploded it all onto me.

And that says 100% about who he is and really maybe 2% about who I am.

Think about it. Of course you are not perfect, nobody is. But you are still there, still taking care of those children, still communicating and moving forward and dealing with things in an honest manner and taking responsibility. You are not the problem. Your "problems" are not the problem. The problem is that he is not accepting responsibility or being honest about the situation. He needs to man up, and you need a L to enforce that because he sure isn't doing it on his own.

It is time to stop doubting yourself. You are not the problem here.

Hi Julie,

He may not be p-a. My STBX sure is though. However, there are all kinds of manipulators. And we all may be guilty of this at one time or another.

Main thing to focus on, especially since he left and makes so much more than you, is to get what you're entitled to for you and the kids.

Hi Julie H, it's good he is giving you some feedback, though I appreciate it's hard to hear. I would encourage you to have a think about what he has said and take what you can from it.

It is common for partners to put the children first (understandably) and for their M to suffer as a result. It's a difficult balance to get right I think...and I think some fathers do feel 'sidelined' by the love, focus and attention on children.

I'm not saying anything he said was right - only that it is helpful if you can dig deep within yourself and assess whether what he says may have some validity in your eyes.

Take care x

Hi All,

Immature people tend to not know how to handle complicated situations. Especially emotional ones. Think about it. After BD how do we act normally? We need help straightening ourselves out. Coming here we achieve some of this because everyone has a similar story.

Mature people become condescending and arrogant until they slip up. Then they too are lost.

From my experience and as a H, sometimes we try to get the message across as well. The H's version of nagging. Sometimes it is portrayed as weakness and we double back, others the W puts in the cupboard and she has enough on her plate, others she dismisses it. More often than not when this happens we close up. For a guy it is hard to open up and be emotional. We are tons after BD, especially if we are the ones who got the ILYB... speech.

Sometimes we need the W to listen share and care about our problems. It is true we try and be the macho man infront of the W. I remember the first interactions I had with my FIL, we were both trying to impress my W. He as still daddy and me as the man in her life. we need to impress and show we have everything under control.

When we get lost we need that person to back us up. Each person is a world so there are countless ways we need it and ask for it. ME.. I will never ask directly...just drop hints. If we dont get it we do shut down and as the R gets cold, resentment builds up. Especially as we were once the apple in her eye and now it is the baby and work.

Those who were only child with strong attachments to the mother are even more lost. They were never prepared to fend for themselves emotionally or give without receiving. They went from being one woman's centre of attention (COA) to anothers.

I also think this is accentuated more with the lack of a strong male role model. IE the father.

Now they are caught up in quicksand. The more they struggle the more lost they are so in the end give up.

They make the usual mistake and when caught (which is inevitable as men are lousy A hiders as compared to women, especially if the W is determined to know the truth) blame everyone but themselves and twist everything to fit the script in their head.

The problem is for some it is now worse. On top of whatever issues they had, now they have to deal with an A gone public. Each man will deal with it in his own way.

In these cases it is not the W fault as it is not the H fault with a WW. Both are.

What changes is how we act. I think M & W act differently.

So dont beat yourself up, especially about the past. Concentrate on the future and how good a job you are doing.

The weaker the man the more he shys away from responsability, knowing whatever step he takes back in his duties means his W must take one forward to compensate.

keep it up.

Hugs Max

I second what Pho said. Well said!

Thanks max, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I guess it's a universal scenario that occurs with young kids. He does not understand and does not want to understand how difficult it was for me after kids were born. I do wish I had given more to him but I can't change things. I apologized and wanted to work on things, but he felt we couldn't. I still have yet to give him a letter, but I can't when I am still this angry. It needs to be authentic.

Husband was pretty much an only child and I know his mom did everything including work full time. Father was known as main provider (mom made a big deal of this to hide what was really going on) and now my husband is left in dark about his families real dynamics modeling how he believes we should be on something pretty dysfunctional. (I think a lot of our problems compounded after his father died and he was getting pulled in tons of directions from mom and work and me with new babies). I do empathize but can't do much. And if there was in fact an affair, i am not spiritually mature enough of a person to forgive that.

I had a rough couple of months, and It's frusturating but I think in long run i will survive this better then he will. Deep down, he is actually more sentimental then me. He is about to lose everything. he has some problems including Weird OCD issues and has been drinking a lot and gaining weight. I can't see him having an easy time with woman and relationships. In past he would say things like "I'm not having affair, woman are the last thing I can handle". One of my sons does not want to be around him and that is probably hurtful as well. I think he is about to hit rock bottom once we go to court because now it won't be about him having freedom and independence from a "nagging" wife. He will have consequences. He is also realizing that this is not going to be the happy and laughing divorced families all coming together for the holidays and doing things together for the good of the children. I don't put on pretenses.

Or maybe it will only hurt him a little. He always talked about how independent he was, and that he didn't need anything from anyone and preferred his solitude.

Same here. In the recent past she has started coloring her hair, started running (which she always hated), started spending more time with girlfriends who have had troubled marriages and who cheated, been obsessed with weight loss and supplements (even though she has never been overweight and has always been beautiful in my eyes, always my first choice...which of course doesn't matter cause it's me

).

Her choices are odd, she's very disorganized about life in general and this seems to have proceeded in a similar way. Very little if any communication about the process at all...she's the one who initiated it and wants out, yet I've had to get in touch a few times to ask about status of papers, etc.

I was willing to forgive the affair if she was willing to work on the marriage. I can tell you that I don't consider myself spiritually mature, but I just think it's the right thing to do if she were willing to do the work herself. Obviously, she wasn't.

My kids also don't want to be around her much. One of them has much more animosity toward her. I honestly don't think she ever wanted to be a wife and mother at all. She seems to like the idea of her doing/being most things more than the thing itself. Has never stuck to very much for a long time in her life. Runs around like a headless chicken all day and yet always seems bored and restless...then when there was nothing else to do, she would sit and drink til she passed out. All of that was my fault, of course.

I can't remember ever getting a sincere apology from my wife. Just damage control whenever she got caught or did something stupid in front of me. As for pretense...she is a master and I (aside from just being polite in social situations) refuse to put on an act.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread...just saying that you're not the only one out there, and neither is your spouse!

Me Julie ... lol

I found from experience and others that only sons are strong and confident when they have an emotional back up plan. IE an OW.

Most cannot take being alone and least of all if loneliness is due to them. The rejection from the son will hit hard .... in due time.

In a way we are also like WW. Especially only child. We need to feel the loss.

When I was focused with OW I never saw changes my W made. I never paid attention to her FB profile pics with tears or WA profile messages with sad quotes or quotes of encouragement. I never even paid attention when she started wearing short dresses and heels.

It was only after I decided to work on my M that everything clicked. I realized what she was going through, the chances I had been given, even the small changes.

Your H needs to get his head out of where the sun doesnt shine to realize what you are saying. Unfortunately it will take time.

If you think it is worth it... hang on in there.

Hugs Max.

Tl2. Hijack away. It's helpful to all of us, especially in my case, to hear about the husband's point of view. I guess they have to be very remourseful or it simply can't work. And even then.

Maximus, thank you for your perspective. To me the worst part has always been suspecting but not knowing for sure if there is affair. No real way for Intel at this point. Of course he has sworn there was no one but I know they will never admit it. The signs are there and everything would make sense. I also frequently hear that men do not leave their wives unless there is another woman.

How long were you involved in affair for? Did she suspect? How long did it take you to regret it ? What made you eventually want to work on marriage? Was there anything your wife could have done that would have woken you up sooner (no contact? File for divorce? ). Do you mean that while you were having affair she was making changes to improve marriage but it was too late for you at the time?

This past year I had been making changes and he just was checked out (supposedly he was stressed with work). I believed that. But I know what it sounds like when you read it. He had increased his time at gym and was just not around much.

When I read and think about how he treated me and think that there was other woman I am sickened and just want to move on and eventually find someone else.

Julie,

I was holding my W's phone where I had just found a series of text messages where she was telling the guy about how much she wanted to run off together, and it was clearly about sex, and she looked me in the eye and told me that's not what it meant, that I misunderstood.

They lie, and they lie about the lies.

Hi Julie

Wow a lot of questions..

First of all... It is generally true ... men do not separate first in order to go windows shopping. They like to jump from one warm bed into another.

- I was involved for quite some time.
- Yes she did and with whom
- I never regretted PA. Still dont. I consider it a moment in my life where since a long time I was loved by someone who was interested in me and the sex was off the charts. For a H on a sex diet for so long it was like being given a blank cheque in willy wonkas factory. I also learned a lot and became a stronger person. The way I saw it .. if my w does not want any emotional or physical contact with me whats wrong with sharing what I have to give with someone else so long as W gets the paycheck she wants.
- I decided to work on my M when I saw I could lose my W. Also I saw the R with OW was going nowhere and i was tired of the double life. i wanted a single healthy one. So we decided to call it a day as OW felt the same and I focused on piecing what was left of my M and see what it would become. It was make or break. TBH even if I had not seen message from OM we still would have broken up OW and me.
- My w woke me up with the frienship with this guy. But I still had resentment for her. jealous that door outwards she was happy and door inwards miserable.

- She never ade changes, just became controlling and aggressive so I distanced myself and when one day she said to give it a go she said it under pressure. I said no. I will always regret that day decision. had I known DB then I would have said yes and known what to do. Hindsight is a b1tch.

I was messed up and found a nice place to be myself in a sort of twisted way. Looking back yes it was wrong and i imagine it has a sort of fairytale side to it because I never got caught.

She did, I played the role of the LBS when in fact I was a WLBS for sometime but really it was just anger that what I had so desparately wanted from her for a long time, before my PA, she gave in part to someone else.

Anyway, being in a PA also helped me understand her thinking and even more so after DB so I knew what she was going through. The OW also made me a stronger person and I have become more calmer and less talk and more action.

As for a PA due to work stress, thats BS. I have a lot of stress at work so I scr3w a neighbour or colleague because it helps?. If things were OK I would rather tap my w than get involved in a PA. if things are not Ok at home then yes, I understand a PA but never down to work stress.

Hope to have cleared this up.

Hugs Max.

Maximus, he never said he had affair because his work was stressful. he always denied affair and continues to deny. Once swore on me and kids. (I know so juvenile) He said he never had time for me due to work. He said he would have no time for affair or anything due to work. I believed him at time and just thought bis job was awful, but I wouldn't be too surprised if other woman. Our marriage was bad and we had limited chance for intimacy due to living arrangement.

Julie, I read Maximus's post and feel compelled to comment. I respect his honesty and am not here to condemn another person. That said, I don't want you to think that every man cheats or considers it ok.

My M was horrible. After the kids STBX was 100% mom, 0% wife. I focused on work and pool to keep my mind off the hole in my heart at home. We went years at a time without sex and up to six months at a time without talking. I felt more used than I could possibly explain. I told my best friend it was like I was single except I couldn't date anyone and had to give 100% of my income in alimony.

During that time I was a new manager. I was 31. I had a number of women working for me between the ages of 24-28. They would go out after work for happy hour, and do fun adventurous things on the weekend. I started to feel extremely left out. Meanwhile I'd go home and literally be shunned by a woman that treated me like once she had my sperm and money I was worthless.

Finally it happened. I started getting a bit of a crush on one of these women. I started enjoying her company too much, trying to impress her, finding ways to spend more time with her. I knew it was stupid, but I have always avoided women so being in a job where I had to have extended contact was challenging for me. I remember talking to one of my friends after work, crying because I was so upset this is how I was feeling. Note- I never did ANYTHING inappropriate. No flirting, no physical contact. It was just in my MIND. But I was so frustrated that I was feeling this way. And yes, I in part blamed my W, because I was thinking "I am trying, trying, trying to stay committed to this M, and instead of recognizing how hard it is for a man and supporting me through my temptations, you are literally giving me every reason to justify going outside of the M".

But- I knew that was all BS. I KNEW my M was more important. I knew that this was a garbage distraction. I was able to look ahead and run it out, if I broke up my family for some other woman in 5 years I'd have the same challenges with this other person, on top of a broken home.

This lasted 2-3 months, until one day I told this other woman that I couldn't work with her any more, and I told her why. I also told my boss. I also told my W. I offered my resignation if my boss couldn't find another team to have me lead. Bottom line I freaked out and said my M was first, and I couldn't allow anything to jeopardize that. Everyone was surprised since there had been no outward sign of anything. But in the end it worked out, I was able to continue working there. And once I made this confession any fantasy died and the emotional obsession was dead.

STBX of course was hurt and upset and embarrassed, and instead of being a wake up call to the state of our M and a sign that I was committed to working on it, she instead moved farther away. This is the way our M was the last 3 years. It was bad. Bad Julie.

It's too bad. I was actually proud of how I handled the situation all in all. Turns out she didn't do as well when it was her turn so to speak. That's part of the reason I felt so betrayed, if I knew we were going to play the give up and screw around game I wouldn't have tortured myself in that partnership for so long.

But I can sleep at night knowing who I am, what I did, and there is no sex in the world that is better than being able to look in the mirror.

I've shared this before, just not sure if it's been since you were on the board. Point is that not all men cheat and some DO think it's a big deal. As much as I have physical desires I've only ever wanted to have one woman in my life, and the fact it hasn't played out that way has been 100% on them.

Back to your regular scheduled program now.

Hi Z,

Interesting to read your post.

I would like to point out a few things...

- I never said every man cheats
- If you look at statistics, there is a high number of cheaters, around 50 - 60%.
- I do not consider it OK at all.
- Once that boundary is crossed it is a door that is never closed.
- Just like an addict, rehab is forever.
- Falling is easier the next time around.
- The M never fully recovers. Ever.
- Most people can deal with marital problems face to face because it implies interaction between both.
- Affairs happen beyond the LBS reach until caught. Until then it is the uncertainty that eats away and the worst thing is you cant address it if you have no proof.
- After that and presuming things work out, both need to put in a lot of work but the LBS has the worst part which is blind faith. As you know trust is something that is hard to obtain but easy to lose.
- Another sad part about EAPA is that if you dont get caught you are more likely to fall. Get better at covering your tracks and do not see the damage you are causing.
- Once you do get caught everything is different, reality bites and you see the devastation but are oblivious, lost and depending on your situation and character come to terms with it in different ways.

Going back to your comments and please understand this is my opinion with all respect and without full knowledge of your situation:

- Going years (so not once) at a time without sex and 6 months without talking. In what way is that considered a marriage? Did you address the issue? If so what happened? If not why not?

- How is developing a crush, enjoying a workers company too much, trying to impress her, finding ways to spend time with her not flirting? If you analyze this, is this not considered an emotional affair? Maybe your co-worker did not get the memo but the fact YOU were doing it being married...How do you consider this behaviour appropriate? If your wife had done it would you have been Ok with that?

- In your paragraph you say you blame your W because you were trying to stay committed and instead of recognizing ... supporting me through my temptations....giving me every reason to justify... did you ever stop to think why she did not? did you ever stop to think she feltt he same? How did you expect her to recognize how hard it is and why should she if you never told her? How did you expect your W to support you during your temptation? What makes you think she should? Because you dont exist for her you at some point thought it was justifiable to have an EAPA. Not walk out and then find someone.

- After you realized it was BS, what did you do to change the situation and improve your M? Why only indicate as a deterrent that you would be in the same situation 5 years from now + a broken home. why would you believe that? if you were guaranteed that would not happen, would you have had an EAPA?

- Would you consider your actions were more to get a reaction from your W as a last call than she could lose you? How does one consider that telling a S of a crush at work, that it is now gone public and on top of that that you resigned to be a wake up call to make the s come running to your arms or open up? Why choose this method and once again why not consider other options that were available? Why continue for another 3 years in a dead R? If you tried something before and it did not work what made you think it would now? If you never tried, what made you think more of the same would work?

- After your confession, what did you do to remedy it?

- Maybe I am wrong but I think your co-worker was unaware of your feelings for her? If so how did she react? If not did she connect with you?

- Had you known your W would not be so ... noble .. would you have gone to the next level? During which time did she have the EAPA and for how long?

- I am happy that you can sleep at night, so can I. I also know who I was and who I am and that I need to work on myself to continue changing. Do you look back and see how you contributed and what you could have done differently or did you rest the blame on her?

- More importantly I have also got to know who my W is and what I must do unconditionally to get her back which is why I am here. I think we are piecing and only time will tell how this jigsaw ends up.

- The cliched look in the mirror sounds nice. The problem is many can look in the mirror for different reasons. when I do i see a messed up guy given a second chance and scared everyday of blowing it. I see a guy that has fallen, picked himself up and working on not falling again. I see a guy that has endured as much as W during the M and was the weak one. When it was my time to step up i didnt.

Most of all however I see a man with his arms around a blurred female sihouette that each day that goes by gets clearer and clearer and hopes that one day it will be just as clear as him and that THAT day the sex and love will beat looking in the mirror ever again alone and uncertain.

Peace bro..

Max

Zues, I feel as if the only times I have empathy for my husband are after I read your posts. Thank you for sharing, I was not aware of that incident in your relationship history. As an outsider reading in, I can appreciate your honesty and commitment to your wife. I can also understand how your wife would have been hurt and perhaps mistrustful as well.

Truth is, I know my husband feels similar to you. i would like to offer female view because I know a lot of men on these boards experienced this as well.

After sons were born, my entire being was devoted to ensuring they were safe and well provided for. It was instinctual. I had no other desire other then to hold them. In fact, if I could live that moment nursing and holding them in my arms for eternity, I would be in absolute bliss. As I'm sure you know, these same hormones cause a major decrease in libido. I loved my husband greatly, but at that time he had to be second. Factor that in with serious sleep deprivation, extreme anxiety that something could happen to the babies (later found out 1/5 moms experience this), nursing which physically drains you,
Painful scarring from surgery or delivery, a new post baby body that is by no means sexy and left so weak and susebtible to all sorts of biomechanical dysfunctions, and the stress of not knowing what to do with these innocent beings who are completely dependent upon you. I think new moms are the most neglected population out there. I was 100% mom as well because they needed me more. it was not about me anymore, it was about them and their survival. I assumed my husband was on same page and understood and felt the same way because he loved the children as much as I did and would sacrifice as much as i did.

I did not intentionally neglect husband. Physically and emotionally I was spent. I needed help and support and patience. I could barely make time for a shower and just did not feel sexy at all. Because of the lack of sleep (in our case this lasted close to 2 years), I kept getting sick and it was just really difficult. Regretfully I unfairly blamed husband for a lot. And I focused too much on what he wasn't doing instead of what he was. I see why he slowly distanced and detached into work.

Presently, There is nothing that bothers me more, then him complaining about how I did nothing for him while he was out providing because I felt my role at the time was so much more demanding (I also worked part time when they were still infants). When he says this, I feel completely unappreciated and misunderstood. I feel like he just has no empathy for me and does not understand or appreciate the fact that my being 100% mom to our children is my way of showing him how much I love him and our family. To neglect me and the kids was in my mind the ultimate insult.

You did stay and you wanted to work things out. My husband did not. Said he wants to reconcile but can't. Don't see the difference. All I see right now is a man that only cares about his needs and happiness and a man that wants to punish me because I tried to be the best mother to his children.

Maximus, I have only read some of your posts from earlier, and I have to catch up on recent ones. There was one incident where you had a talk with her and she responded more intimately. I believe you also mentioned that she enjoys reading erotic novels.

From a female perspective, when men communicate with us about non-superficial things we connect more and feel more intimately inclined.

Also, if she likes erotic novels, Perhaps verbal is her love language (I never actually read the book..it depresses me because my husband is gone and we can no longer work on things) but if that is true, do you think a lot of verbal compliments and expressing to her your desires for her might help improve intimacy? She seems to take great pride in working out. Do you tell her how good she looks and how much she excites you? Probably important for her to know and hearing this said out loud might excite her. I think for many women it's an ego thing. Women get turned on knowing they are attractive and desired.

I think the disconnect is the great debate about whether physical affection for men is a want or a need. It seems that most men agree it is a need, and most women tend to assume it is a want.

I know my STBX could've written the same thing you just did. For my black and white thinking this infuriated me. I told her that physical affection was a need for me. She clearly never believed that. And I can tell you don't either.

Because you don't deprive a need. For example, she never would've let the dogs go without food or water. Because those are needs. She wouldn't simply let one of our dogs die in it's kennel for lack of water. And if she did she darn sure wouldn't say "it wasn't my intention to neglect my dog, but since I have children now...". No. She'd understand it isn't about how she feels, or what else she has to do. If she has a dog she needs to find a way to make sure it has what it needs to survive.

If that dog scavenged through the house, and by rooting through the garbage was able to just eat enough to survive...though light weight, sickly, and in a lot of pain...it might act not very friendly at times. It might beg at the table. It might bark for attention. It might even attack if it was truly in survival mode. I suppose then it's a bad dog. And if the dog could talk and say "I am perishing in pain and need food and water, I'm angry that you're not giving it to me, I'm being neglected", would you respond "I am not neglecting you, I am taking care of the cats all for you". Hmmm. That doesn't fill you up when you're unable to sleep because you're having hunger pains.

So when he says he can't R...how could he? Pretend for a minute that you had a NEED that your partner considered OPTIONAL. How could you put your trust in that person? How could you remain in that situation? You truly can't. And it's clear you consider this optional if you'd excuse neglecting it for years.

It's easy to say "Oh, c'mon, sex is not a bloody need, no one was STARVING to death, what a manipulative whiny analogy, totally lacks understanding of what it was like", etc. That's the outlook many women share. I could argue all day about how if my W is in a coma, or gets deathly sick, etc, etc...would I leave? If not, this then proves I don't NEED physical affection. But this isn't the case. There is a monumental difference between being unable and unwilling. Monumental. Unable means act of God. Unwilling means misunderstood, neglected, diminished, disrespected, and so, so much more. Bottom line, I'm just trying to help you understand the chasm between the two of you in his eyes.

Trust me, I know it isn't one sided. I fell short in my M in many, many ways. Of course to me it seems like this was the entire issue, and my issues were all about how I struggled to deal with this. But I know she would feel the exact inverse with a lot of validity. Frankly I'm so wearied of thinking about it I didn't want to reply, it's like it brings me back and I have PTSD. Right now I'd rather never talk to another woman again than go through that again. And that's not an exaggeration. But if God wants me to open my heart to someone again I won't be the one saying it's impossible. I just know the first thing I'll do is find out which side of the want/need fence she sits on, or just as importantly if she's willing to place is much value in my views and feelings as in own or whether she'll just do what she feels is best and persuade herself I was wrong to feel differently.

Anyway, sorry if I'm coming across as attacking, or blaming, or judging, or anything. I'm sorry you're here and that you're hurting, I'm sorry that your M is falling apart, I hate all of this as much as you do. Hope you find some peace and contentment this weekend.

Maximus, just wrote Julie a long post and not ready for another book, but want to answer some of the questions.

I don't know how to define the difference between an EA and what happened with me. The lines blur. One big difference is that there was nothing done or said that would've been regarded as inappropriate. EA's are a betrayal in the outside world. Inappropriate conversations, confessions of love, romantic fantasies, sharing souls, etc. With me if you'd followed me around with a camera for 3 months you wouldn't have been able to ransom me for enough to buy a KitKat bar. So I'd say it was more of an inappropriate desire.

As far as how I handled it, well...first it took some time for me to truly understand what it was. I was in denial for a while, and confused as to how I was feeling. When I finally realized it was truly inappropriate I tried different ways of snapping myself out of it. I can't remember if this was for a week or two months. But I never acted on anything, and tried to find different ways to change my feelings. I escalated my attempts until finally I spoke up about it, determined to do whatever it took to avoid going further down that road.

Julie mentioned seeing how she could feel distrustful of me after that. Funny, I thought she'd have reason to trust me more. Considering the situation I'm not really sure how anyone could have handled it with more integrity. The only thing I could've done differently is not felt the feelings I was feeling. Hmmm. I'll tip my hat to those without temptation.

Do I consider my partnership a marriage? Yes. Because we were married. I didn't leave because I don't believe in quitting a marriage, PERIOD. Had we stayed together it's quite possible that in 2 years or 5 years we would be different people and would have worked through what we were struggling with. If not we would've been together forever either way. Look up the first post I wrote on my last thread "Black and White" and you'll get a glimpse as to how I view this.

What did I do to improve the relationship? Shoot. Not enough. I had no idea how big the disconnect was, how differently she truly saw things. I was naive, and believed we'd work through things. I went to counseling right after that and still go. I read a ton of books about things like this. I tried a lot of ways to improve the R that were probably 'my ways', and failed to really try to work on things 'her ways'. And at times I was so worn out with it that I'd take a break and just live my life for a while. When we wouldn't talk it wasn't out of anger or rage, but rather just defeat and fatigue.

I would do things differently if I could do them again, but as they say "experience is learning something you needed to know, right after you needed to know it". Unfortunately for STBX she gave up on me. That assumes that I'll always be the way I was at 34. That's just not the case. But whatever. I'm accepting that this world doesn't work the way I think it ought to, and that there's still a lot of good in it.

Talk more later, thanks M.

Hi Julie,

Thanks for replying.

One of the problems I always had with W was communication.

Sure we would talk and talk and talk when there was a problem but in between not a lot. We had some together moments where we spoke about mundane things but never really exchanged what was affecting us nor had real pillow talk.

I cant remember the event you mention from the posts.

Yes, she read some erotic novels. The thing with W and erotic or sexual is that I never considered her sexually since a long time ago. The last great memory I had of her as initiating sexually was a long long time ago coming out of the shower in just a robe to the front room right up to me, open it up and that look on her face told me what she wanted. Aaaahhh what a night LOL.

After that things just died down, she never wanted sex, pulled a face at sexual jokes, if I told her how sexy she looked or how something made her look attractive she dismissed it. Never smiling acknowledging anything sexually complimentary about her. It was like living with Julie Andrews, just needed the von trapp kids to come out and sing.

Fast forward many many years to 2014, a while back through detaching and focusing on many hours of gim and supplements she got a great body. She then put a few selfies on her FB showing her abs. After the day everything blew and i saw the inappropriate photos in her phone as well as the lovey dovey messages to OM it was like 2 different people. If I had told her to send me a photo like that she would have told me to FO. I never sexted with her when I was away nor did she send me sexy or loving messages.

If she had shown me that side and opened up a little I would be putty in her hands. I cant speak for everyone but you know there is something when even though you are involved in an A the sex with OP is porn stuff but you still wish at times it was your s you had moaning. That to me just made me angry.

Dont think im not a romantic neither. I am old school, the roses, chocolates, jewellery, dinners , etc but I would wine and dine her only to get home kiss goddnight and to sleep. I still did it even though I knew nothing would happen in the hope she would act with anything, not just sex. I gave up after a while. The spark just left.

Saying this its funny how women think they can fix everything with a kiss. Whenever they turn down H they pull the kiss card as if that makes it right. As if by kissing we understand and will sweep it under the rug. I HATE those kisses. Consolation kisses.

I think we should do the same... I wont change the light bulb you are hammering on about but hey .. here's a kiss ... now on your way.

There are only so many rejections a man can take. So many closed doors he can take to advances before he emotionally shuts down. At that time I did not know DB existed. Now I would put a plan into action and see how it went before deciding.

From various posts I see a common problem with M with newborn children.

The W shifts her focus to the child, the husband still has his focus on the W. She goes from Wife to Mother. He wants to still be a husband but she is forcing him to be father first and in between Husband.

I know women get stressed with births and men freak out and when sh1t hits the fan its the other one's fault. Truth is its both your fault.

When I hear the women complain about the man not spending enough time with her or the children I get it. She needed him to have her back while she changed her role from Wife to Mother and push him 1 step down the love ladder while he resents her for this change. The dynamics changed and neither one understood how it affected the other. Add to that any other underlying issues or problems and sh1t just got a whole lot messier.

I admit as a man I will never understand the bond between a mother and a son. I know how much I love my son and what I would do for him but women take it to another level. In this way women should also understand the damage they do to a man when they shove him aside almost overnight, expect him to accept it and call him selfish when he complains.

I read that women nag as a way of transmitting that something is wrong and then go silent when they give up. We do the same. We call it complaining and it is I would say more focused on emotional needs than chores.

A woman may nag to get a light bulb changed for 3 days but not give a second thought that she rejected him 5 times this month to have sex and they have only had sex twice because for her it is enough in general.

A man will complain to his wife that she shows no affection for 3 years and not give a hoot the bulb isnt working because you can still see in general.

In short, the best expression I ever heard to cover this was that a woman needs connection to have sex. A man needs sex to have a connection. If each one understood this really clearly I think a lot more marriages would be saved.

Anyway here is my part to your post.

Hugs Max

Hi Z,

I will never understand women as I will never understand men. Yes, women are wired differently but each woman is a world unto herself. As is each man.

I can only follow a simple guide for dummies. I am not as gifted as some here to analyze each word or action of the S and read between the lines to that level. I can only up to a certain point.

I am saying this because I would not have confessed as you did. I do not as a man understand why you did it if no one was the wiser. I am not judging you, just trying to understand you. I have a lot of personal issues and demons in my head that I try and solve myself.

As for marriages, I think we consider them based on our situation. Some say a piece paper does not mean anything, it is the emotion behind it that counts. Others think that the paper gives them rights so they lax on their marital duties. Some believe in open marriages. Some dont.

You may have acted with integrity for yourself and from your POV and maybe the act in itself was. What you were being honest about wasnt.

The fact you never crossed your moral line doesnt mean you didnt cross hers. What if she in her own way was waiting for you to show emotions to her, do something and you now tell her you had feelings for someone else. Regardless of whether or not you acted on them is irrelevant. If my w had said what you had said I would have been hurt.

Integrity does not heal, honesty does not heal.

When you opened up to W and confessed you were acting on your feelings and POV. As you didnt know what she was thinking or feeling you couldnt know how she would react.

Going back to marriages and your comments ... what does being married mean to you. I think it is about emotions. If there is no emotion how is it a marriage? Another point... how do you know what would have happened in the future? Isnt that arrogance? controlling?

I always thought that experience was knowledge through exposure. And in some ways can relate to that. I have experienced Pain, Hurt, Sadness, happiness, deceit, love, hate, rejection, the list is endless.

Having experienced these I am now weary of doing anything to cause the negative ones and focus on causing the positive ones.

Sometimes it is not about being the best person you can be but being the best person to be with.

Peace Max

Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks.

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do
(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? )

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance?

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful

Max and zues

I know you are both right regarding intimacy. If our sex life was better, we would have worked through a lot of our issues. past year, we were living with family and had no privacy. Prior to that it was last on list. I had stopped dressing up and caring, because felt like being able to chase after kids was more important then looking good.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks.

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do
(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? )

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance?

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful

Julie, I agree with this, and would actually add something...DO THIS BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING FOR A HUSBAND TO DO. NOT to try to change her behavior. This is where I failed in my M.

The sad fact is that it probably won't change the M the way the H wants. W may continue to neglect H. He may go through decades more of anguish. So if the H does this as a strategy to try to get W to give him what he desires, it is DOOMED. She might. She might not. It would sure be nice. But that's almost not the point. The point is to do it because when you got married you made a commitment to do your part. Whether she does hers is between her and her maker.

There is a clip on youtube under "Andy Stanley Marriage Expectations". It has part 1-3. It is religious based. But this series is a much watch, about an hour total. Part 3 explains this very, very well. You cannot serve your partner out of selfishness. You must serve them because this is your job. To the same extent that you must provide for your children whether they appreciate you or not. It's your DUTY. If you have a lonely, sexless, miserable marriage for the rest of your life...at least sleep good knowing you did your best to do your part.

My two cents. Funny, if more people felt that way maybe they'd see that at some point positive things happen.

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the female insight.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks. Could be, she also lost her job so i presume unhappiness at home and job loss made her take refuge in gim

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. Then why do they reject the H's advances?

The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. Very good point. I realized looking back that as H we treat them as sex objects. Forget the day interactions you mention and then expect a porn star in bed. I try that now. Hugging from behind sporadically during the day, kissing her neck, speaking sweetly and sounding happy to hear her voice. This in conjunction with my change as a H to be next to her and not behind her.

If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. So do I

I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do As she also had a fling, would you say a W then realises what got H to also go wayward?

(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? ) I know she is in emotional pain because sometimes an innocent action will cause her eyes to swell. an example .. i was supposed to meet her at the gim to go to the doctor for my back. I forgot and thought she was coming home to pick me up. I saw time went by and no news. i then sent her a message that it was strange she did not turn up and that i hope everything was Ok. I didnt want to call because i thought she was having a crisis. I left for the appt and she arrived home and called me saying her phone blocked and that she was not irresponsible and would not leave me to go by myself she was not that sort of person... all crying. I calmed her down and she came to the doctor and picked me up. she just exploded. so I know her head has a storm.

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance? Years ago when she stopped accepting it. she would go mad when i gave her a bunch of flowers saying it was a waste of money. She once made me and my son give back a cologne we bought for her because she thought it was throwing money away and she stopped using cologne. Me and my son hated those days where you had to give gifts like mothers day or her birthday. We then just bought anything saying what the hell w will make us give it back anyway.

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful
doing all that Julie that is why I am here.

Hugs Max

Zues,

Quote:

But I can sleep at night knowing who I am, what I did, and there is no sex in the world that is better than being able to look in the mirror.

Reading that story you told about you at work and the women made me think you might be my long lost twin. I had something similar happen in the months following my W's disclosure about her adultery although the women I was around didn't work with or for me, so it was less complicated. To make matters worse, I was running a lot at the time and was in great shape for 40 and had some opportunities, and it wasn't simply about the physical act it was about being wanted and valued...but the physical was part of it to be sure. It made me almost physically ill having to resist that temptation. I started running early mornings before work, going to the gym at lunch, then coming home and running again before supper just to burn off the stress and wear myself out. It was brutal.

One thing I used to tell myself at the time was, Someday one or both of your kids might be in a similar spot and need someone who can testify to the value of doing what's right over what's easy or more desirable.
But I thought about it exactly as you did and to this day I am glad I resisted that.

Originally Posted By: Maximus

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the female insight.

Originally Posted By: JulieH

Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks. Could be, she also lost her job so i presume unhappiness at home and job loss made her take refuge in gim

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. Then why do they reject the H's advances?

The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. Very good point. I realized looking back that as H we treat them as sex objects. Forget the day interactions you mention and then expect a porn star in bed. I try that now. Hugging from behind sporadically during the day, kissing her neck, speaking sweetly and sounding happy to hear her voice. This in conjunction with my change as a H to be next to her and not behind her.

If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. So do I

I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do As she also had a fling, would you say a W then realises what got H to also go wayward?

(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? ) I know she is in emotional pain because sometimes an innocent action will cause her eyes to swell. an example .. i was supposed to meet her at the gim to go to the doctor for my back. I forgot and thought she was coming home to pick me up. I saw time went by and no news. i then sent her a message that it was strange she did not turn up and that i hope everything was Ok. I didnt want to call because i thought she was having a crisis. I left for the appt and she arrived home and called me saying her phone blocked and that she was not irresponsible and would not leave me to go by myself she was not that sort of person... all crying. I calmed her down and she came to the doctor and picked me up. she just exploded. so I know her head has a storm.

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance? Years ago when she stopped accepting it. she would go mad when i gave her a bunch of flowers saying it was a waste of money. She once made me and my son give back a cologne we bought for her because she thought it was throwing money away and she stopped using cologne. Me and my son hated those days where you had to give gifts like mothers day or her birthday. We then just bought anything saying what the hell w will make us give it back anyway.

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful
doing all that Julie that is why I am here.

Hugs Max

Ok. I am relating to your wife because I have a similar sentiment torwards gifts and tend to get obsessed with exercise. Maybe this will help...

As I said, many of us females feel desire when we know we are attractive to opposite sex. It feeds are ego and makes us feel desirable which increases our libidos. I think your wife needs verbal reinforcement....

Try making comments to her like " your body is looking so nice and tight, I can't even sleep any more" or "when you bend over like that your driving me crazy". "Your (fill in blank) looks so hot you don't know how much I think about you. Etc.
Don't pressure her or come on to her that moment. Then she will think you are saying that to get her to bed because your horny. Let the words linger in her mind. Be consistent but don't overdo it. She needs to feel desired and attractive. Let her initiate when she's ready and show your appreciation when she does.

(my advice is just that of one female perspective so keep that in mind, but the other stuff isn't working so it won't hurt to try)

Tl2. Not many men or women would have turned down an opportunity like that after discovering their spouse was unfaithful. As a female, I turned down a few opportunities simply because i recognized it would devalue me if I was easy (I have never had 1 night stand). Plus I have a huge fear of stds. My motives were more selfish. it sounds like you turned this down for selfless reasons and if I was a man I don't know if I would have done this. Your wife was a fool.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Julie mentioned seeing how she could feel distrustful of me after that. Funny, I thought she'd have reason to trust me more. Considering the situation I'm not really sure how anyone could have handled it with more integrity. The only thing I could've done differently is not felt the feelings I was feeling. Hmmm. I'll tip my hat to those without temptation.

When you look at this rationally and logically, you are absolutely right. Your honesty regarding the situation reveals a man That has a lot of integrity and is very trustworthy. But relationships and feelings and woman are not rational. We all have fantasies about other people and we should never act on them. But I think that by revealing your fantasy, your wife might have thought that there was more to it then just a fantasy or why confess. I know my husband has to be attracted to other females. He is human. But I don't want to hear about it. It would hurt my ego and make me feel unattractive which would decrease my libido. I wouldn't appreciate the sacrifice he made to be loyal to me, I would view it as an affront to my sexuality and it would have damaged my pride.

Zues, One of my brothers and his best friend remind me so much of you. Highly intelligent, very sensitive, noble, filled with great insight and honesty and they strive to always do the right thing. (I always thought my husband was like this as well). Their wives do not realize how lucky they are to have them. There is an innocence or idealism to that black and white way of thinking and sometimes I think by advising you or my brother to not do what you felt was right, is actually changing that unique perspective and way of acting on life that you have. You are men that are different from the majority of men and I think that's a good way to be and want you and my brother to not feel like you have to change to fit in with people that do not do the right things.

It's hard, because most people do not have or are incapable of appreciating your good intentions because of their own insecurities and ego so their feelings end up getting hurt and I know that was not your intent. You wanted to proove to her your loyalty. I know how confusing females can be and how frusturating it is to witness them falling for the guys that know how to use BS words that are lies. It's called playing the game and I respect that you don't do it.

But I do think that there has to be a way to remain honest and true to yourself but to also protect someone's Feelings. Sorry but All I can offer is an understanding of how your wife probably felt and I know it's all in the past.

I tried a lot of ways to improve the R that were probably 'my ways', and failed to really try to work on things 'her ways'. And at times I was so worn out with it that I'd take a break and just live my life for a while. When we wouldn't talk it wasn't out of anger or rage, but rather just defeat

. It's funny, my husband keeps saying how much he tried and I don't see it. Obviously he didn't try too hard, since he left. When he didn't talk or interact much with me, it was the worst thing in my mind. I sometimes would say something I knew would lead into a fight, just to have some interaction because to me any type of communication was better then none. Feeling stonewalled was the worst cause it made me feel as if I could not get throught to him. I wish I had read all the relationship books sooner.

Thanks for the reply Julie.

To clarify one thing...the only reason I told STBX is because my #1 priority was to preserve my M. It felt like an evil witch was trying to cast a spell on me and destroy my marriage. I had been trying to fight it on my own but was struggling. I basically told my W because I needed help in a dark hour. And it was instant. It was like once I confessed the desire went away like a demon that couldn't stand the light of day. Had I been able to handle this on my own it would've been a non-issue like any of the thoughts that flicker through our minds. I felt like I was in the deep end of the pool and starting to gasp for air and I thought of my wife as my life partner that could work through this stuff with me.

I am too idealistic. I know this. Here's how- I am like 25% as idealistic as my father.

My father couldn't hold a marriage. 3 wives that I know of, and without the details let's just say they didn't work. Although he's had a 15 year relationship with his girlfriend now, so I think he's figuring out a few things.

More to the point, I know of many situations in which this kept him from holding a job or a career. For example, he left a good job because the culture wasn't a fit. OK, fair enough. He drove cab for a bit while he looked for other jobs. One thing he learned was that the 'dispatcher' got to pick which cab drivers got the most profitable runs, and he found out that it was common practice for the cab drivers to give a gratuity to the dispatcher in exchange for the airport runs that were the most profitable. My dad considered this bribery and was outraged and refused to participate. As a result he struggled and didn't last long. I could give other examples, but the point is he struggled to be effective because he refused to accept the way things actually were.

I have much of that in me, but I've overcome that in parts of my life for one reason- Pool. See, the plus side to my black/white thinking is that once I fixate on a result then the rest of my universe has to shift and change to accomplish that result. So when I decided to become the greatest pool player that ever lived (although I didn't get that far

) I did whatever was necessary to get there. For example, maybe many of my opponents would do things that were underhanded during competition. I could choose to be idealistic and not compete in an arena where people spoiled the purity of the game...but then I wouldn't hit my goal. My goal was ALL POWERFUL so I just made their poor behavior part of the game I was going to win, then set about developing the mental toughness and perspective to overcome those obstacles. I did this for everything until no one within driving distance wanted to play me for more than coffee money.

So too with my job. Sales isn't easy. The world doesn't work the way I want it to. But I could see that I could either make a story about why I can't do it, or I can deal with it. So once again I realigned my views and narratives, and have climbed to the top (although I'm still battling in the role I took a year ago...but I'll win Julie, rest assured).

But I do struggle with idealism still. And if I don't have an absolute commitment to something it's easy for me to be put off by how things really work.

That's where I stand with relationships right now. See, in my mind I see a husband and a wife acting as a partnership. Suppose for just a minute you could transcend yourself and BE the partnership...understanding each person to the same level. Would it be possible to make the relationship work? I always thought so.

Let's look at my idealism as it pertains to the situation we were discussing. I have a lot of desire and lust. The view above to me seems like 'ok, gross, we women don't want to know about it because we feel we should be able to be your everything and this challenges that fantasy and is hurtful and threatening, so just pretend you don't feel this way and we'll pretend you don't either, because if you really did that would be awful'. But to me this whole pretending feels awful, because I feel like I'm hideously ugly person and that I need to wear a bag over my head and never show my face to anyone, because if I do everyone will run and scream. What accentuates this is that I already feel like I'm ugly for having this much desire, so when my life partner can't stand the sight of me all it did was destroy my connection with her because I felt like she didn't like me, she wanted the person she demanded I pretended to be.

I couldn't accept this. I don't want to feel I have to wear a mask in a relationship to be accepted. I believed I should be able to be honest about my feelings. Why should she be threatened that I felt physical lust or occasional fantasies about other women? She had my lifelong commitment. She had my unwavering loyalty. She would be the only person in the world I shared this with. In fact, she would be the only person in the world I would be intimate with, and I would have no desire to be close with anyone but her because everyone else I had to wear a mask for, but she would accept me for who I was. I had the idea that she would understand me, accept me, and make my needs a priority, being the strong woman behind the strong man, knowing that it wasn't easy to be a man but that we could do it as a team.

Is that possible? I haven't seen it, so maybe it's chasing a unicorn. So I'm torn between one of three things: 1) Finding a relationship that works that way, 2) determining that I want a relationship to work so much I'm willing to sacrifice my ideals of how I believe it should work and don a mask and play make believe with a woman that doesn't really know me, or 3) just give up on relationships because I don't want to play that game and if it doesn't work that way I'm not interested.

Right now I'm leaning towards #3/1. Probably not interested in playing the game, but open if the universe shows me a unicorn. That said I'm sure I'll mature and grow, and maybe in 5-10 years I'll decide that I'd rather be remarried than single. That's possible. But right now I still find it pretty gross and would rather just play pool or poker or chess, where the objective is clear, the rules are fair, and I can have fun and win.

Julie,

Well to be honest there were a lot of factors and not entirely selfless either. I too fear STDs (especially since my W contracted one during one of her infidelities)...and that seriously affected our sex life and my desire for her. I too have never had a one night stand and (aside from when I was a teenager) have never really wanted random anonymous anything.

Still, I did flirt with her and talk to her like she was the cutest, most desirable girl in the room. And for me she always was. From the moment we got serious 21 years ago she has always been my first and only choice. But I was never hers it seems...or not for a very long while.

When the going gets tough it's easy to see who's a giver and who's a taker. Your H as well is a fool because I think givers are more mature (I have to build, pay my dues, and accept that no one sane gets everything they want) while takers may be a bit more pragmatic (I'm not happy right now and there's a reason).

We givers end up putting up with too much because of our ideals and our long-term goal; takers end up running away because they don't have much to really give and they are short-term thinkers...they project into the future and think the reality now is the way it will always be. So...run away now!

My kids are in their 20s and trying to get established in good paying jobs, and I am constantly reminding them of what I call the 'opportunity gap': the best opportunities can be obtained if you understand there is a process of hard work and sacrifice/compromise/delayed gratification to get there. I think marriage and family works the same way.

All people are broken in some way. A mature person loves their partner and supports them through that while at the same time not enabling or exploiting their weaknesses. With some there may be a time to cut and run if your life or health is in danger, but most of us have flaws that are merely annoying or hurtful to our spouses and not dangerous.

I would never have D'd my W. But I did finally give tell her over the summer when I discovered another EA / possible PA...I can not move forward in the marriage until you get help with your drinking, lying, and cheating. For some reason I fully expected her to take advantage of the opportunity, straighten up, and fly right...we have great kids, a nice home, good jobs, and I was willing to do whatever was right and healthy and necessary to heal whatever needed it in our R, and give her space to do what she needed to do.

She did go to one AA meeting but said it wasn't for her. She went to IC but refused to talk to me about what she was doing there. For three months she ignored, lied, stonewalled, and manipulated me. Then she left. So I got my answer.

I'm sad to say I was a mess the first week she was gone. I remained crushed the rest of that month. By the following month I had to start accepting the reality of what was happening and get on with life. I had to accept that she had some serious problems (destructive patterns going back to early adolescence) and without dealing with that and committing to the marriage I was just in for more of being cheated on and disrespected.

You started this thread talking about how confused, angry, hopeless you feel. I don't think any marriage is unsavable if the people involved are both sane and committed to honoring the vows. In the end for me that's what this is ultimately about. Some people mean them when they say them, and some are just making noise.

I hated feeling like a quitter. But my IC reminded me that I didn't quit, she did. We all have to accept what we can't control, and lead our kids through this as best we can.

That last paragraph speaks volumes. We aren't the quitters. Learn to accept and put the kids first.

Still is horrible to be here, but we have to do the best we can and better ourselves through this.

Zues, I understand feeling frusturated by the world being an irrational and self serving place. (I actually completely changed my studies and career aspirations early on because of this realization

) It's like discovering that your favorite politician who you donated tons of time and money to is just like all the rest.
I have to say that thank goodness there are people that are like you and do not take the easy way out. I know you have high expectations of yourself and you continue to meet them. Most of us are not like that and often choose the path of least resistance. You serve as a great model for your children.

When it comes to lust, I do not think that is a problem for most women. We expect and enjoy that in men. (Why do you think we are all out there spending tons of money on over the knee boots?

). We certainly do not think it is gross and I know plenty of women that like porn and strip clubs as well. The female image is attractive plain and simple and there is no shame in being turned on by these images. We just don't want to be replaced by someone real or held up to unobtainable standards. We don't want to pretend, but we do need to know that we are attractive to you and that we are desired.

I dont understand why you feel like your wife could not stand the sight of you and why you are ashamed of normal human urges. Did you continue to have desire for her as well? Did you feel guilty if perhaps you lost this desire?

Thanks for the reply Julie.

I almost always had desire for my W. The fact that she was my W, mother of my children, heart of my family...it made her more desirable than any woman in the world.

Still, I understand that feelings lead to perception. When she'd reject me or neglect me it would hurt, and after enough pain sometimes she wouldn't look as beautiful. And of course physically she did the stereotypical SAHM letting herself go and wearing baggy pajamas around the house and getting pretty run down. Yes, there were times I felt put off and a bit guilty for not being more attracted to her or more understanding of how much she had on her plate.

Funny, for me the biggest turn on would be able to be myself, have my W understand what was in my heart, embrace it, and love me and fulfill me. I wanted to be able to share my fantasies with my W and talk about what turned me on. Or flirt with her in sexual ways throughout the day. And so on. She always shut this down...or she'd play along but resent it, and later tell me that this was proof we weren't right for each other. But I don't think there was ever a time she couldn't have revved my engine.

Why couldn't she stand the sight of me? It's probably a tragedy waiting to be written (or one that has been 10,000 times). I understand that the same way she looked less desirable to me when she rejected me, that's how I'd look less desirable to her when I pressured her. She wouldn't feel safe, and she felt diminished, like if I loved her for who she really was I wouldn't ask for anything she didn't want to lovingly provide. This lead to a brutal cycle. I know my part was destructive. I pressured in many ways to get what I wanted. I found myself thinking the same way that people do to justify an affair- I deserved it, it was only fair, etc. I now know this is wrong. I also know it is nearly impossible to exist in a sexless marriage with a woman that neglects your needs and diminishes your cries of anguish. I think I'd do better if I could do it all over again, but sometimes I think back to the horror and how impossible it seemed and I still don't know. That's why I don't feel I'm ready for an R yet at times.

Anyway, I'm going to try to think of other ways to hijack your thread. Catch you later!

Tl2.. Those are great words, and you are right, we are not quitters. But as they say it takes 2 to make a marriage and only 1 to end it. I am not a selfless giver by any means. I Am beginning to see that it is not fair to ourselves to accept certain behavior that we know is wrong in the battle to preserve a marriage. there is a fine line between enabling destructive behavior and unfair choices and working hard to save a marriage. If we can't do what is right and best for ourselves, then we can't expect them to treat us that way either. I am learning this and getting my old self back. Thank you

Zues, no worries of hijacking. All our issues and points of view provide great insight to our own situations and growth.

You ask "why couldn't she stand the sight of me". Most likely it wasn't about you or your desires. I'm sure she married you knowing and probably liking your drive. It could simply just be a matter of her being in a bad place. After kids were born, I blamed my husband for my unhappiness. I love my kids and am devoted to them. But I felt overwhelmed and I needed to blame someone. Often times the blame was unfair. I started to resent him because I wasn't getting the help I needed. Looking back, I realized that he was trying, but it was not easy for him either. in my mind he was an enemy because i was having trouble coping and I needed one. That type of tension gets in the way of intimacy. Sometimes I look back and say a house keeper or nanny would have actually been cost effective because it would have saved our marriage. I know you feel your wife used you for procreation. My husband says and thinks this too. I want you to know this is not true. I wish my husband understood this as well.