1st: New England Newcomer 2nd: So I am divorced. 3rd: I hucked a waterfall. 4th: Just Fishin' 5th: Six to NineMy goodness, my last post on the previous thread was cathartic. No doubt I will have ups and downs, but the rest has got to be about My Kids and I, and nothing about her. No more tests. No more impacts. No more approaching her.
My previous thread was all about what GB called the PTSD part of the Divorce when things go quiet and people get a little edgy. I thought I did well, until the end. At the end of the day, I did my best and listened to my gut (which happened to be wrong, but I will learn).
So what does The Next Day of the Rest of My Life look like...
"Don't get mad. Don't get even. Do better. Much better. Rise above. Become so engulfed in your own success that you forget it ever happened." - Anonymous
"If you want to be more attractive make a decision to live in a beautiful state. To say, I'm not going to give up my happiness over little stuff. I'm not going to be obsessed about things I can't control. I'm going to focus on what I can control and can do. And when people are generous, when they are playful, when they are warm, when they are sincere, when they are loving. People love to be around them. There is nothing more attractive. And when someone is always bitching, always complaining, always whining, always blaming someone else, always fearful or always worried. They are a bummer to be around. Just pick it out. So what does it take to be attractive, what it really takes is appreciating your life. Most people their upsets are because their expectations aren't meet. They expect people to be a certain way, expect yourself to be a certain way, expect the government to be a certain way. And it isn't. I always tell people to trade their expectations for appreciation. And your whole life will change like that. If you can just start appreciating the people around you, appreciate this moment, appreciating the things you aren't noticing, you will live in a beautiful state. And other people will find being around you an attractive or enjoyable experience, its that simple." - T. Robbins
Kids... My relationship with my them has never been better. My D asked if she had to go to X's on Christmas b/c she wanted to wake up here. This is the only place she has ever known on Christmas morning. I felt bad for X, but those are the consequences of her decisions. Last night we had a ton of fun running around the house and playing.
Work...
My startup is happening. Every day it is closer. Letter of Intent on the building is next Wednesday. Social media presence kicked off last week. Website going live today (only a small portion of the whole website). No products in stock yet to sell, but we have a lot of people/suppliers on hook or interested. I have a verbal agreement with my first full time employee to start in June. I have a showing to a potential renter for additional space I am purchasing on Sunday (risk management move). And in two weeks a meeting with a potential partner to discuss a merger (to raise more capital and the ability to sell more product).
Woman... No idea. I'm flirtatious enough. But my friends have bugged me for awhile to let them set me up on blind dates. I'm not sure if thats my thing. I'm in no rush.
Shift happens in an instant. Watch the changes pile one on one. No stopping.
Are you ready to push the spiritual connection to your higher power?
There is no way you can now unknow.
V
Mahhhty, I just went back and read your letter. Wow. I am sitting here with tears running down my cheeks. That was cathartic for you to write, but also helped me to read it. I don't know where I am headed, but I want to get there with the grace and compassion that you have embodied.
I wish this board wasn't anonymous so I could support your business! I wish you the very best of success in your work life, with your children, and with whatever personal endeavors you might pursue. Some woman out there is going to be very lucky some day when she meets you.
It seems like one by one the DB'ers are moving on and doing well.
Mahhhty, I just went back and read your letter.
Can you point me to this letter? I would like to read it myself. Thanks!
Spiff, look at Mahhty's last thread (thread 5 I believe) and his last post on that thread.
Start here
Mahhty awakes V
Yep. I guess I wrote two letters. Thread five last post and a couple posts before that. The last one I didn't give to her but the one before that I did. I started the first letter the day she moved out. It had no impact on her when she read it.
Its true what people say on these forums. The advice they give it is spot on truth. I tried many things and made up many reasons why my situation was different but it wasn't. I wanted to believe it was so that I could DB through the path of least resistance. But that doesn't happen. Heed my warning. Stay the course.
V - I'm ready!
Still so much going on in your sitch, so much change. You are sensitive and this D has blown a big hole in whatever shell you had, and now it's all exposed. For so long, you relied on her to close that hole because she had blown it open. And now it sounds like you have taken it upon yourself to heal, without expecting anything of her anymore. Of course, I also think it's the right track, as these people have moved on or at least or detached in a way that we can't fathom in our pain. This may well be the beginning of a new path for you, one that will bring you more solace than ever.
Hi Mahhhty, I just caught up on your situation. Mine moved at lightening speed, but we're at about roughly the same place now: Disillusioned with X and dropping the rope. The LAST place I wanted to be when I first arrived here, but the best place for me to be at present.
I would love to write my H a letter. One that expresses all my regrets and sorrows, things I wish I'd done differently, how I could do better...oh, wait! I DID! I made the mistake of e-mailing it to him, and he forwarded it to OW for advice. The betrayal still aches. I find it ironic that his sharing my letter actually hurts me so much more than his cheating.
I'm determined to work on me. Heal. Be the best I can be. The best revenge is to live well, right? Seriously, I'm on the journey of a lifetime towards something greater. I know you are, too.
I'll keep checking in to see how you're doing on your journey.
Anc
I will post on your thread about the letter. There is a place in Zs thread (Zelda) where letters play a role and I sense much to know. I believe this betrayal is a positive thing.
V
Mahhty,
It is the letter process which is important, rather than the content. I looked into Robx and his letters and Dobson and his. In some cases it's done to open the wound, Lance the boil and aid healing in an R.
I believe that's only a part of it. To explain my thinking on it is stretching my knowledge a little beyond its limits I think. Take what is written as a mere signpost, the method of travel to the destination and the speed is yours.
For some here, DB is a vehicle to repair R, it either does or doesn't and from that stance there are two ways, move on or dumpster dive our selves. Both approaches are perfectly valid and appropriate.
Damaged hurt people hurt people. This can be our spouses, ourselves or a combination which creates toxicity. In my own sitch there is damage, much damage, an R with a compulsive abuser, it would be easy to blame all life's woes on that. It's obvious, abuse is nasty and creates empathy in others. I think healing arises when we look deeper into ourselves, when we write our Dobson letter, and yes it's ok to burn and release it.
It does something though, in twelve steps it moves us from step 3 to step 4. I will provide you the link to the post on twelve steps. Step 4 is about analysis and our faults and whilst twelve steps doesn't say it our traits that make us who we are. Acceptance, the earlier question was as you were aware a means to elucidate from you that inventory. Put on paper our inventory is our toolkit and it has balance. We neither see all negative nor positive, just that which we own. It is merely today's snapshot of ourselves. It changes.
You moved very easily from step 3 to 4, not many do this and often it is unnecessary, many never have to, want to or find it necessary to make that inventory. Twelve steps is very good for peer to peer counselling, it gives real life support and healing. It has its limitations though as it can excrude other ways of healing. Such other methods include CBT, DBT, NLP and of course DB.
DB is smart healing in action, smart healing is a concept I came across in the gaming world from war craft. In Smart healing when we play a game as a team it makes sense to heal the weakest player. 12 steps, DB board does that, we offer our help and resources to those most in need the Newbies or those most in distress. This also fits with personal growth and self healing too, those who give the most receive the most.
There is a remarkable TED talk on games, trauma and post traumatic growth, it's one that has influenced my thinking greatly it is by Jane Mcgonigal and is entitled this game can add 10 years to your life. Although it is about recovery from trauma and post traumatic growth.
My higher spirit tells me that is the spot you are in at this very moment, the point of moving from step 6 to 7, then the tough one step 8 to step 9. I will explain in a separate post. The principle is to reach active atonement. First there is work to do, to truly connect with spirit.
There are posters here who in real time manage shift, healing and great growth to spirit. In no special order they are PP (pigpen) whose transition was so swift and shift came like a whirlwind, JellyB who is undergoing shift at present, Mutatio in the process of moving from step 3 to 4. You can tell this happens as life long issues no longer lead Di-Mond (Diana) who dropped life long habit of carrying others burdens to please them, and leaving behind a massive hoarding habit, clearing her environment whilst having really enormous debilitating illness. In case anyone missed her story, this modest woman grew in front of our eyes. Msd, Mustardseed who is truly becoming a strength to herself and others in great adversity, someone who worked hard when she could have given up easily.
Our Anc, is evolving.
Each of these posters sees the Trauma as an starting block for growth. Each in their own way has atoned.
It is difficult to atone to those who hurt you, who cause the Trauma, but it will and must be. That releases you from the burdens of your past. It is very Catholic in its principle. That is important to know, it's optional. I believe we don't reach spirit through meditation or hot yoga or listening to stillness, communing with nature or transcendence. These just provide the stillness in which the spirit commines with the physical. It is through extreme self care, which is not a selfish act but a self centered one.
The lesson here for Mahhty is one of self care, extreme self care, it is of putting Mahhty first in his own core. I suspect, no I know that atonement step 9 will be easy for you, you will embrace it fully, it is in your nature to gift to others and to accept responsibility even for those things that you are not responsible for. What is not easy is to atone to Mahhty.
I really see that the biggest hurdle for you in connecting to Spirit is yourself. It is in putting you first in your own life. In some ways like Z (Zelda), it was so hard for this remarkable lady to love herself. On five separate occasions we touched on Z's love for Z, it culminated in her writing a love letter to herself. It took her two threads to reach willingness to love Z more than loving her WH. Mahhty you are at that point now, on the bridge ready to cross to putting Mahhty first in his own life, doing that puts your dependant children first too.
There are a vast number of techniques to spirit but the fundamental source is love of self.
You wrote a very moving letter to W, now I would like to see you write the same letter to Mahhty. If you feel resistance then we are truly hitting the barrier. A letter of acceptance of Mahhty and the apology to him by you. In doing this include the ways will you will atone. In due course the cavern of emotions will release, anger, shame and the all important vulnerability and authenticity of self to self. There will be no cognitive dissonance, who you are is who you will be to you, without barriers.
Great shift and healing. Tumbling on tumbling. No disconnect to the higher spirit around you. Great abundance comes with connection toon to self. Deepak Choprange has seven laws to spirit. Onice connection is made to the National Grid of higher power there is glow.
After this comes great acceptance and then maintaining. You will never have the requirement to be so raw again. Taking extraordinary care of that remarkable being called Mahhty is your honoured job. You will do it well, with great pleasure. You attach to Mahhty and detach from all other outcomes. The care of him is first and foremost, and there is no resistance to that. This isn't a selfish act.
A love letter to Mahhty with care and atonement. Take your time if you need to. This is a big ask of you, and it's ok to defer, or lay aside.
V
Resources
://janemcgonigal.com add http contains all links to her Ted talks and gaming theories
post traumatic growth Twelve steps process Know that in the last I refer to abuse of self, perhaps misuse would be a better way to describe it. It was a real eye opener for me to acknowledge I had misused myself. I twelve stepped my R with V.
I am asking you to move swiftly to step 7, to clarify the actions you need to take to atone to self. I trust this makes my thinking clever, sometimes I sense I am obtuse.
V
://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10119222272
Smart healing for the needs amoung us!
V
That should say thinking clearer and nerds among us.
V
Wow V. I've read and reread multiple times. Thank you for taking the time. I feel like In a way I've already been through a similar cycle. Especially when she first left. The latest revelation really pulled me back and illustrated my weaknesses in detachment areas and I guess just a fragmented approach across the board.
I took a stab at the letter. But I need to try again. It was difficult.
I had such a good weekend with my kids. I love them uncontrollably. My D doesn't want to go to X's tomorrow. And I don't want her too either! I love those kids. My S was sick again. Up all night Friday and slept in my bed last night. I didn't mind... I'm a cuddler.
BTW good quote. Admitting that we struggle is not weakness but strength.
For a long time, I believe she looked at my willingness to go to counseling as a weakness. However, I do see how the willingness to learn or allow yourself to be coached is a strength, with the noblest of goals. To rebuild a broken family.
Mahhhty it is so easy to look at what we do with DB'ing as weakness as it goes against what our pride and our friends and seemingly our whole popular culture tells us to do. But it truly is the stronger and most loving route to take.
I love your letters. I have been following your thread and have read your letters a few times. You definitely deserve to be on the receiving end of one of them. You deserve the love, compassion, and kindness that you have extended time and time again to your W.
Wow, I a lot has happened since I was last checked in. So sorry that happened, you seem to be coming out the other side already. I love your list of 30!
You have grown so much over the past year. You are an amazing dad and a loving, caring person. When I first started this process one of the resources I listened to/read talked about trusting/focusing on the process, not the outcome(saving your marriage). He said not all marriages can be saved for various reasons, but doing certain things (many similar to DB) will increase your chances 100% over doing nothing at all. You did a great job with the process, still are. I'm not going to say that I'd rather be where you are, however, I do wish I would have done a better job with the process. My marriage may be intact, but it is far from saved. I did an ok job with the process on the surface, you really took the process to heart and are living it now. So you weren't as detached as you thought or wanted to be, that is easier said than done. But you truly made the changes you wanted to see in yourself and are living it now, keep it going moving forward, your xw truly is the fool.
(())
I know this is a big ask, a love letter to Mahhty.
Once this is completed then I have more to come.
Hugs
V
Wow, I a lot has happened since I was last checked in. So sorry that happened, you seem to be coming out the other side already. I love your list of 30!
You have grown so much over the past year. You are an amazing dad and a loving, caring person. When I first started this process one of the resources I listened to/read talked about trusting/focusing on the process, not the outcome(saving your marriage). He said not all marriages can be saved for various reasons, but doing certain things (many similar to DB) will increase your chances 100% over doing nothing at all. You did a great job with the process, still are. I'm not going to say that I'd rather be where you are, however, I do wish I would have done a better job with the process. My marriage may be intact, but it is far from saved. I did an ok job with the process on the surface, you really took the process to heart and are living it now. So you weren't as detached as you thought or wanted to be, that is easier said than done. But you truly made the changes you wanted to see in yourself and are living it now, keep it going moving forward, your xw truly is the fool.
(())
((((lost18)))) Thank you! I think I've missed your perspective on here. You've helped me more than you know. I don't have any regrets. I recognize I didn't have the tools needed when I started, but I did everything I possibly could. I didn't always do the right thing but I did my best.
I know this is a big ask, a love letter to Mahhty.
Once this is completed then I have more to come.
Hugs
V
This is fairly difficult. I've started multiple times, but come up empty repeatedly. Time to try try again.
Another love letter
Zelda love letter to Zelda And yes it is much more releasing than it seems, truly this will change your life. You have your attributes just start writing. let your spirit flow through you, it will once you begin, I offer you my strength of spirit to be imperfect and to love that in yourself. Let go. No trying, just doing.
V
Hey Mahhty,
The reason you had to read and reread that post numerous times is because it's gobble goop dressed up in pretty language. It really doesn't say much but it sounds like it does.
I've always felt a kinship with you and I, too, would be hard pressed to write myself a love letter. I'd appreciate the effort someone was trying to put forth into my emotional health but I was never one that would have 12 stepped my divorce process.
No offense, that stuff might be great for a women or arts and crafts Tony Romo....but I'd much rather go kayaking.
Sorry about finding out about OM. I never wanted to be right last winter when I was fighting hard to get my posts through to you encouraging you to snoop and get the facts about your life (NOT continual snoop forever which is against DB). I just strongly feel that it's a band aid that needed/needs to be ripped off eventually and the sooner the better (see how much clarity the truth is giving you now???). She had ALL the classic signs and even her email admonishing you was consistent with being a wayward wife. You perfectly blindsided her and essentially got her to admit something she NEVER wants anyone to know about her new Mr. Perfect (especially your children one day). Her best defense is a good offense so she contextualizes a mock defense whereby she can say she admitted nothing and you harassed her. She'll project the banner of liar upon you. This is problem number 2 with not getting the truth a year ago. She can continue to lie about your life to the children and expose your children on a daily basis to her co-conspirator in the destruction of their family. If you try to ever tell the kids the truth (and I certainly think you should)...she will deny it because she can (just because she can deny it doesn't mean you shouldn't tell it....the truth is what it is and your children will come to realize which parent will and which parent won't speak the truth to them - never lie to your kids to protect her).
Who is he....a "friend" from work? What makes you suspect it occurred prior to the divorce? If they knew each other and spent any time together THAT is your confirmation. Further, if she was truly not wayward prior to the divorce she'd do everything in her power to assure you that it wasn't so and give you an alternative explanation. You are the father of her children. If the truth was she didn't cheat...I'd expect a lot more sympathy. Instead....she sends a scathing accusatory email to you trying to characterize your conversation with her as abusive. Liars lie. She's just covering her basis (and protecting her OM). Personally, I'd casually go public with your knowledge....act like it's a well known fact and has been for a year (you just kept quiet about it because you hoped to reconcile - but not now - so protecting her secret isn't your priority).
Good luck with the business.
This artsy craftsy female V backs out of this.
How unpleasant and aggressive and attacking.
I find your attitude towards my posts very unnecessary. If this is how you approach the way the gentler of us live then I am sad for you.
Your attitude and stance reminds me of my WH.
Very much of him. Abusive.
V
Great shift and healing. Tumbling on tumbling. No disconnect to the higher spirit around you. Great abundance comes with connection toon to self. Deepak Choprange has seven laws to spirit. Onice connection is made to the National Grid of higher power there is glow.
V,
Above is a perfect example of goodly gook. The "National Grid of higher Power" and "great abundance comes with connection to self". It's just words on a screen to us "lower spirits". You also even threw in a "Dobson letter" reference which has nothing to do with Divorce Busting - the relevant author on this discussion forum.
I am very sorry your husband was abusive.
I am not.
What I am is much more pragmatic.
I also find what I classify as high brow postings passive aggressive and not "gentle" at all.
I have seen many (usually male BH's like Maahty) get caught up running in circles trying to figure out what mystical "higher spirit" long posts like yours mean and exactly what they are supposed to do with it. I merely expressed the viewpoint to Mahhty that I thought writing himself a "love letter" was waste of time and he should disregard the non-DB exercise and, instead, go kayaking. That was and is still my advice to Mahhty. If you think he should disregard my post...then share your opinion of it. Mahhty can take what he wants and leave the rest. Characterizing me, based upon my opinion, as abusive is just your defensiveness speaking or, should I say, your inner higher self tumbling upon tumbling.
I was serious when I said "no offense". Don't take any........as I mean only to help Mahhty.....just like you. Between my pragmatism and your "higher spirit" combined we're are sure to hit the right spot. In fact, Jguy is a betrayed husband that I ascertained this afternoon is a guy I can't help at all because he posted a link to a mysticism article about love, eros and whatever. He seems like a nice enough guy but I'm not going to ever connect with him. I am not being sarcastic when I say he'd likely find your posts, um, elucidating.
As somewhat of a newbie, one of the things that drew me to this website was the amount of comradeship and support that we all offered each other.
The majority of us are going about our daily lives, dealing with continuous stress and conflict. Serious legal battles involving children and property. Most of us have already been greatly humiliated, rejected, and betrayed. Many of us have been abused, gas lighted, and are on plenty of anti depressants, and I have read of some who admit to having been suicidal.
What I'm trying to say, is that there really is no need to add conflict to a posters life by insulting the way someone offers advise. We are all trying to help in our own way and we are all having a hard enough time as it is. If someone made fun of my postings I would feel embarrassed and would be reluctant to post freely.
Georgia Bulldogs, your advice is so good that it stands alone. It is honest and different, and Very straight forward. Advise that many of us need. There is no need to put down another's advice or way of expressions for your advise to stand out. Vanilla has great advise too. Some like the writing of Toni Morrison, others like Cormac Mccarthy. Most appreciate both, despite how different.
As someone who was raised without any type of religion or spirituality when someone says something to me like "Jesus loves you" I know they are saying it from a good place and acknowledge the Christian Religion's emphasis on family values. But imagine if I said that a comment like that was goodly gook? Even if I was thinking it? Maybe in some situations and on some boards, but not one like this.
Just my 2 cents. I want everyone to feel like there input is important even if it's different
Getting back to Mahhhty, how are you doing Mahhty? Anything new? How are you dealing with things today? How are your children?
GB, I agree with Julie your advise is spot on and appreciated. What isn't is the condescending tone.
Writing a letter to myself is something that I find very very difficult. And it is soo far outside my comfort zone or something I would normally do, that I want to do it just for that reason.
I have no proof that she was with anyone until maybe March or June. However, we had these conversations many times, it could have been her wanting too or just a kiss or sex. I have no idea. But I'm sure she was involved in something. June was the newspaper on the back seat. March was another pic on social media. On Jan 15 she denied having the kids to have her birthday alone. The OM could definitely have been there. There is no doubt in my mind that she manipulated everyone involved to get what she wanted.
I've been really busy with the startup. Had a great weekend demo'ing the space. Also went kayaking with a bunch of friends. On Friday night I went out to eat with my parents, and they were probing me a little bit about the d. At one point I said very matter of factly, that I would have done anything to keep my family together. I think that sums it up. I would have done anything and everything, I just needed someone to do it with.
I miss the kids horribly. I haven't called to talk with them since they left Friday. I honestly just don't want to hear her voice or interact with her.
I'm going to call tonight or try to skip out to take them to lunch.
I hit the button too soon.
I bet GB was right about her rewriting history. I brought the letter. Confronted her. Blindsided her. And all she could muster was to say that was nice when did you write it. 30 min later she sends an email scathing me on an invasion of privacy.
She's now going through a kidney transplant process. I wonder how much easier that would be with your entire family around you. Also I wonder if she has ever thought of all her childhood memories, the good and the bad. And then think that as a parent she will only have half of those.
Mon and Tues are hard. The quiet gets me. But I have two meetings today and then going out tonight. So the day will turn around.
Went to a wedding tonight with longtime friends. Got my ass chewed for my passive optimistic nature. X has been posting pictures on social media of other man for over 4 weeks.
No one told me.
I'm divorced why does any of this matter.
Mahhty
I apologise for going into alarm mode. I wasn't strong enough to handle the triggers and withdrew. This is unacceptable to me and I sincerely regret any disruption on your thread.
I should know better and I hope we are ok?
I would like to repair our R, if that is ok with you. This is your thread and it is about your journey.
V
So why is self love so important to our health and wellbeing?
Why do we connect less well with others when we can not connect to ourselves?
Those of us in tough R can be disconnected to our higher spirit and to ourselves.
What makes us squeeze ourselves into an R which may not fit?
We ignore the signs and fall in fantasy with an ideal. We make the other our fantasy when they are merely human as we are. Flawed in ways that don’t fit our flaws. When the truth is known reality bites. We observe the actual rather than our dream and find the dream wanting. We seek the fantasy to fulfil ourselves when we should be doing this for ourselves.
We feel being lonely and confuse being alone with loneliness. Loneliness is internal and a lack of wholeness within us. When we are unable to be alone to live within ourselves them we fear being abandoned, we fear that we are unlovable and in essence it is ourselves we have abandoned, the stillness within is the enemy without. When we find our own voice we become that who we are meant to be. There will never be loneliness again, even if we lived in splendid monk like insolation.
We can confuse ordinary humanity and connection with romantic love. We believe friendship and love walk hand in hand. When we have those feelings for our self then there is no need for these from others and we seek better connection from our partners.
We become sad to say no to someone who needs us for fear of hurting them, even when in the long run we know the hurt will be greater. By hurting others in the longer term we hurt ourselves.
We look no further than looks, the dressing, the outer shell of looks, sexuality, dress or va va vroom. The superficial is valued above the enduring.
We carry another off their feet by our all consuming desire or we permit them to do this to us.
We respond as an instinct rather than as a true involved desire.
We use lust which within its period it looses lustre.
We ignore another’s obvious fatal faults, our deal breakers are compromised. We compromise that which should not be compromised.
We chose to be special snowflakes, our partners will treat us differently to the way they treated others. Failing to see hurt people hurt people.
We are sexual and believe that heals, we bring children into an R which should never have been, wanting that child to heal us.
We work on an R rather than on ourselves, especially when the other has little interest in us or an R.
We stay quiet failing to enforce boundaries rather than hold our ground.
We believe lies rather than face the truth. We live in denial.
All of this is because in our own eyes we are incomplete on our own. We are enough just as we are.
Forcing our wayward to come to heel, to relinquish their journey for ours is to my mind showing lack of love for ourselves.I have let my WH go to find his path, be with his current OW, spend his life as he sees fit. I have already blown one PA wide open, he found another one. WH is following the path he has to follow. I have been NC for 7 months now, complete total darkness, I have done NC before LRT. I GAL, I IC, I repair.
Vanilla loves Vanilla because she is who is she is.
My simple love letter to Vanilla is:
You are love, you are connected, imperfect in your eyes, and fulfilling your destiny in God's eyes as best you can. Please know dearest Vanilla that despite all as long as there is love and you seek to operate from love that is all that can be asked of you. Between us, Vanilla and her higher spirit we can work to become our truth. Being alone won't make you lonely Vanilla, if you lose sight of who you are then you will be empty. As one of God's creatures you are as you should be, learning that which you need to learn.
What your higher spirit reaches for will stand on the day of judgement.
Like a game of Candy Crush we can keep playing the level until we get the point and each setback is a new experience to learn.
Being with a wayward and an abuser is tough, learn that lesson, face the pain and move forward to a new level.
I love you Vanilla, you are OK just as you are.
V
V! You are back! I have missed you. I love your letter to sweet V.
Thanks V.
I agree that in my R I have witnessed some of what you wrote but not all. I do not regret marrying XW. I still feel that was the right decision. She suffered during our 2nd Child's Birth. On top of that I grew distant during a time she needed me (due to promotion and work). Then her kidney on top of that. When I did come home I wore her down, was critical, and she planned her exit. I believe that life caught us off guard. My issues with the process is at no point did we have conversations on how to fix it. We spent thousands (or I did) on how to separate but not how to join. She now chooses work over family and the OM is a coworker that she formerly degraded and disliked. Friends have also told me that he is a smoker. As for her social media it is more reminiscent of a college student's than a mother's.
I had a long conversation with some friends about their feelings with the D. All of my friends liked her a lot and some of them were friends with her as well. They are all feeling the loss. A good friend sent me this text... "She has one person in mind and that is herself, before u and before her own kids. She never gave u a chance so it's only fair that u stop trying to give her one. I know easier said than done, but u need to continue telling yourself that her bullshit and lack of respect and love for u is not worth it. Your kids will understand in time, whether it's two years from now or 10. At the end of the day the only person who should be looking at themselves bad in the mirror is her."
I'm confident my kids deserve more. What I need to continue doing is giving them the best I have to offer and remove her from my thoughts day by day. I do seem to be stuck, it is only when I look back do I see the progress from where I came.
My letter to me...
You have attempted to shoulder the blame for the entire situation, even though it can't completely be your burden to carry. This was your attempt from removing pain from others. You have read, studied, analyzed, diagnosed... tried anything possible to change the outcome. Because that is who you are. You gave it everything you could have without receiving support from her. At your core, and as a loving former-partner and parent, you firmly believe you can fix anything. But this break is not yours to fix. You had grand optimistic ideas about your family's forever after.
You should feel proud of the effort you put in. The growth that came from it... your relationship with the kids, your physical fitness, your new business, and your growth. It is true you understand the practices but struggle to put them into place. However understand that you don't have that opportunity.
You are loving, compassionate, hard working, optimistic, caring. You are a visionary who is successful. However the definition of that word is now changing for you, which is your greatest area of growth. You constantly measure yourself against standards hard to achieve. Don't be so hard on yourself. Understand that all have weak areas and those areas give you room for improvement. Regret exists for the outcome, but you should not regret the effort you put in. Learn to forgive completely, but not forget.
She left a family willing to work to fix any and all items. Only to be with someone else immediately after. She sees her own children less than 50% of the time. She is awaiting major surgery. She does not love or respect you. She is rewriting her story and her future. You must let her. She will feel pain for the loss of her family in her own time and way. You must let her. This is not your nature, but out of love and respect you must let her pave her path and walk it. Letting go is particularly hard for you because of your character, attachment, circumstances and your loyalty to your kids and idea of family. This is an area that you must now grow. You have been loyal past the end.
When people meet you, they are intrigued by your current work in aerospace, by your pictures and experiences with lovely, polite, kind and caring children, by your future prospects on business, and grandiose ideas on future. You are almost 33. Your life is yours to live. You are loved. You are strong. You have a lot left to give. You were built for fun. Now have it.
Live your life.
M
In my experience with a cheating wife, I'd have to say your gut is never wrong. I just wish you had found out before the D. She got confrontational in the response email because she was having an "oh sh*t" moment because you hit too close to the truth for her comfort.
Your letter is your story, and it's wonderful.
V
TxH - I bet you are right. I haven't been too confrontational or ever sent her a truth dart. I'm sure you are probably right.
V - Thanks you V! I have a hard time writing about myself. When I kayak or do things I am passionate about I am a cocky goofball, but when I have to talk about myself or write about myself it is much more difficult for me.
Your letter is beautiful and hope you do go have some fun!
The second to last paragraph in your letter really speaks to me. I will try to take that to heart as well.
For what it's worth, you're extremely eloquent.
You should continue to write love letters.
EP - Thank you!!! I am trying! This board unfortunately only sees my worst, as I tend to come here to complain, rant, whine, etc. I'm trying to take those speed bumps out of my path. In between posts I am having fun... I promise!
Gmum - Which part? Her leaving without working with me, creating a separate life, or about letting go... letting her pave her road without trying to draw, reason, or impact her life to receive the outcome I wanted or I believed our kids deserved (her to return home).
I have been meaning to ask the group...
Does anyone know how to find Greek and Coach's Threads???? I can't find them anymore.
Also, I see her Mom a couple times a week (for kid's daycare). I know her parents and sister's family all still care about me. But I have animosity towards all of them for not telling me about the other man. Is this silly? Should I confront them?
Taking the kids to their cousins this afternoon for the weekend. I have to text her to tell her that (per the parenting plan b/c they are out of state). I'm not looking forward to texting her. I've cut her out of my life completely and I don't like the idea of approaching her about anything (which isn't feasible for the long haul, but oh well).
Hi Mahhhty. Inlaws have to put their blood first. Tough but it's how it is. Best to put that one out of thought because they had no choice and that's that
Can't help re old threads but maybe Cadet will oblige
Texting is the lessor of the evils of contact. Polite and short and then out of mind. It's part and parcel of having children together so do it and don't dwell
Just my two cents worth
Take care. Rd
GB, I agree with Julie your advise is spot on and appreciated. What isn't is the condescending tone.
Had a big long post explaining why I reacted to those "love letter" posts the way I did but I waited a few days and thought better of it.
In short, writing yourself a love letter is a wicca/pagan ritual for self love.
It is self-diety worship.
I'm not attacking anyone personally or calling anyone names. My differences of opinion are theological. Lots of unsuspecting people get caught up in Eastern and underworld religions whose ideas, beliefs and practices are presented to them under the guise of self-help books, manuals and even TED talks. Tolle, Osteen and even Opray are essentially "preaching" this neo-paganism & pantheism.
In short, neither you, I, Tolle, Oprah nor Osteen are "love" - God is love.
In His name I pray for you a hedge of thorns as you seek to gather strength and reestablish yourself personally after experiencing all you have the last year.
RD. You are right! Thanks!
Thanks GB. I need all the help I can get!
How about this one.... Does anyone know how to find Greek and Coach's Threads???? I can't find them anymore.
I have the link for all of Coach's post. I will have to work a bit and see if I can run down Greek's.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=21016
I can't find Greek's threads. If you could waylay Starsky, he might could help you, IDK. I haven't seen him on the board lately.
Sorry to hijack GB , wow , yes there are lots of unsuspecting people out there and then there are millions and millions who are raised to follow one religion or another depending on the chance of where they are born
You dismissed Vanillia and her beliefs but I honestly thought you where coming from a decent place ( all be it wrong place ). when you did it. After the post above I sincerely hope you are being comical You dismissed so many peoples beliefs and their interpretations of life and living in one short post that you have to be joking. I feel a bit stupid now as you got me. I'll still post this as a warning to others that might have taken it as I did
Take care. Rd
Both parts, I guess. My husband thinks it's too late for us and there's nothing I can do about that. Just have to accept it.
I haven't posted on your thread ever before, but I had followed your sitch for a long time and know you are man of great integrity and respect.
I am sorry to post for reasons unrelated to your sitch. I just really wanted to acknowledge RD's post...thanks RD...I didn't know how to reply to GB without hijacking Mahhhty's thread!
I was so upset reading GB post. Thank you for verbalising what I was unable to.
JellyBXXX
"In short, writing yourself a love letter is a wicca/pagan ritual for self love.
It is self-diety worship."
This is gobbledy gook.
Pretty funny if you ask me.
If anyone knows GB's history, he never came here reading DB or trying to understand it, he says he saved his marriage by putting his foot down and it was through the grace of God that it was saved.
I'd take his advice with strong grain of salt.
Vanilla,
You WERE insulted and for your advice and it wasn't even directed at GB. I think your advice has been great and I respect you for your opinion.
Mahhty, just remember that everyone on this forum is offering an OPINION. Anyone who insults another's advice is usually not one who respects others. I've seen MANY posters like this come and go. They believe that what they believe is the best way. There is no absolute way to go about your sitch. It's your life, navigate it the best way that YOU can.
Peace.
Sandi,
Thank you for finding them!!!!
RD, Julie, Mr Bond, GB, Vanilla,
Abraham Lincoln once said that "if I was born with your parents and lived your life I would be you."
I don't always but I do try to never discount someone's ideas or feelings. Obviously I'm divorced so I'm still learning. Both GB and V have taken probably hours to help me. Certainly I dont fully grasp or understand or agree with every sentence but I always try to treat all with respect and gratitude that they took the time. I'm also intrigued by situations that challenge me as that promotes growth.
I appreciate all posts and in that light will not promote controversy as it doesn't help me in any way.
All of us are smarter than one of us, that's the idea behind community. Please treat others like you would like to be treated.
Now... I have five kids to play with I must head out. I'll b back Monday!
Also, I see her Mom a couple times a week (for kid's daycare). I know her parents and sister's family all still care about me. But I have animosity towards all of them for not telling me about the other man. Is this silly? Should I confront them?
Hey Mahhty - I saw this on your thread a few days ago and meant to comment, because this is something I see pop up in various threads from time to time and I have unusually strong feelings about it, but time got away from me and your thread went in another direction in the meantime.
First of all - I don't want to make any false equivalencies here - my in-laws didn't know anything about the affair - so I didn't have to deal with that additional betrayal. And I
do think that the right thing for them to have done was speak up.
All that being said, here's why I would cut them some slack. I'm going to assume that they are generally good people (sometimes I read about in-laws on these forums that sound like they immediately close ranks at the first whiff of divorce, but that doesn't sound like the case here). There is a lot of advice floating around out there to stay out of situations like these - in fact, I would venture to say its sort of the generally accepted behavior. And of course - you probably don't know how this was spun by your ex-wife - but I would venture to guess she
did put some sort of spin on it.
Mahhty - I've made lots of mistakes in my sitch- but I will claim some success with how I've treated my in-laws. I stopped thinking of them as in-laws and more as my children's relatives. I've gone out of my way to maintain a relationship with them that is independent of my X. I frequently send pictures, expedite phone calls and Facetime with the kids (they live on the opposite coast), routinely inquire about their various health problems, comment positively on their Facebook posts (XH is not on Facebook - so this makes it easier for me - I understand not everyone can do this), remember birthdays etc. etc. The result has been a good relationship with them. We don't talk about XH very often, and when we do it's just factually based (he has the kids today, etc.). I've even vacationed with MIL and will do so again. It has not been perfect. They are human and they love their son, and I'm sure there are times when they wonder if there is more to the story and if maybe I did something to "cause" what happened.
Anyway - here are the two massive benefits I have gotten from my efforts. There isn't much awkwardness between me and them. I have years of kid related milestones ahead (birthdays, graduations, marriages etc.) and these she be much easier both for me and for the kids now. Second - my girls get to see me and their father's family together. I think that is important and of great benefit to them, rather then having two completely separate sides of the family. (I wish it went the other direction, but XH has made no gestures at all to my family, even after my father passed away this summer.)
I know you're hurt right now - but for what it's worth, I'd encourage you to establish your own relationship with them. It hurts no one.
Raliced -
It sounds as if you've done a great job in this area. It's hard for me because I do feel like the family slighted me (as no one told me about the OM, I think they enabled her to leave by trying to "help"). However, I do know that they care. I know they all care in some way. I still get handshakes and hugs. My X-Nieces love me. I was always the fun uncle who would get on the floor and play.
But I think you took the high road. I can do that. I can bridge the gap and formulate a relationship based around me without her. I used to see and hang out with them more than any friends. It will never be that way again.
Thank you for such good advice and sharing your experience!
I was just drafting up a catch up journal entry. I got distracted and read this.
Divorce Busting
December 2 at 10:15am · Boulder, CO
Love is never enough.
Falling in love is easy.
Staying in love is another matter.
You need to know how to make a relationship work in order to keep love alive.
We're not born knowing how to create loving relationships.
If we didn't have great role models growing up, there's no way we can know what to do when things get tough.
That is, unless you learn new relationship skills.
Don't believe the myth that relationships just come naturally.
They do only after you know the formula for creating lasting love.
Take a relationship skill-building class.
Go to a therapist who also teaches skills.
Read great self-help books.
Become an educated partner.
Then pass this wisdom down to your children.
The world will be a better place.
Michele Weiner-Davis
This clearly was what I tried to attain in my situation, vs her position ILYBINILWY and relationships aren't work, they shouldn't be hard, my parents never fought, etc (which all are probably supporting her affliction either physically or mentally for another man).
I've had hope. I've wanted to work at this to keep our family together and show our kids the real meaning of lasting love. I've documented in all these threads (to the best of my ability) what I wanted to do, what happened, and I tried to adapt and take responsibility. I've maintained an idealistic mind and had hope for my family.
But honestly this morning.... I woke up this AM during a vivid dream. One in which we were hooking up until the OM came back. I'm well aware, I'm not as detached as I wish I would be. But seriously... I think its time for me to make some new friends and putting myself out there.
Anyway, on a better front. Business is kicking off January 1st and I couldn't be more excited. Got three new vendors, I'll own real estate, have a sweat setup, 18K-20K cars pass the location daily, I found my first full-time employee. The pieces are coming together.
Dreams don't work unless you do. And I'm not scared of rolling up my sleeves.
Thanks to Sandi, I'm burning through Coach's posts. Coach and his W (Greek) were on this board years ago. From what I've been able to grasp. Greek left and Coach attracted her back through respect, space and living his life.... If this is not accurate please let me know.
11/11/12
afa states
"It sounds good and it might be something which could re-ignite the flame."
Coach states
"Flame = Fire.
Fire = Fuel (common values/goals/love/desires) + Oxygen (space,boundaries) + Heat (attraction)
Women don't love men they can't respect. Being someones second choice has consequences. Be in charge of your actions. Too many confuse patience with time, patience is a mindset. Taking healthy actions requires no patience. Choose to thrive thru this instead of holding on to survive. Your sitch can change quickly when you start a fire in your life."
I have a lot to do today, but I got dragged into another thread and I think this can resonate with MANY. I wish I could get Coach a beer....
Why and How..... I don't have the outline worked out in my head yet so this is a work in progress. I tell this from my perspective of what worked for me and my view of what "love" is. I was the LBS, I am a man and I was not dealing with a A on either side. So here goes.
Two goals of DB. First work on yourself to become stronger, wiser, and love yourself. You can't become attractive to your WAS until you have yourself squared away - emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically. You can't give out what you don't have. This idea leads to the "love is the opposite of fear" concept.
When the LBS spouse initally gets here we are now post-bomb. Lot's of emotions - anger, guilt, confusion, frustration, and fear. Very valid and normal reactions to the situation. We also tend to pursue right after the bomb (bargaining.) Then maybe some helplessness and hopelessness (depression.) Once we accept the situation for what it is can we start working on ourselves and our M. Add the denial in pre-bomb and you got the five stages of grief. (Denial, bargaining, anger depression, and acceptance.) All negative emotions on this side of the ledger - fear being the "King Snake." ("snakes on a brain" is my phrase for your deepest fears.)
Fear blinds, cripples and weakens us from being our best. Fear is a coping tool to keep us from getting hurt, in DB world it's our heart that we think we are protecting. Yet by protecting it we are keeping it from healing, growing and giving.
So the goal of DB is to cope by:
180 behaviour - replace unproductive with healthy and productive
GAL - stay busy, keep your brain and hands productive (quiets the snakes for a while)
act as if - pretend to be strong until you are
goals - focus and measurable actions
try something different - big one not talked about enough here, open your mind, heart and soul up to new ideas and letting go of dysfunctional beliefs. I think this step walks you from acceptance across the divide from fear to love.
The great divide - limboland. We have accepted we need to work on ourselves, we acknowledge our M might not be saved, we understand our role in our sitch and we are detaching. We are also afraid of moving forward - might hear more WAS script, rollercoaster makes me sick, might get more empty promises. Guess what? For our WAS to be where they are they have already reached this point and have decided that the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving (read FEAR.)
So you fellow DBers have a choice stay in the land of fear or choose to love anyway. By finding this place you already know what some of the answers are. It's finding the strength, wisdom and love to push on.
Just saw Groundhog Day over the weekend. What was the transformation Phil Connors (Bill Murray) had to get out of his limboland? He took the focus off of his needs and wants and started caring about others (love.) Until then he met with frustration and depression. Once he got his mojo on then he was seen as attractive and interesting to not just to Rita, his love interest, but the whole community.
So whether or not you reconcile one of your goals should be get yourself to the point where you love yourelf enougth to be able to love (philia) others, be a friend, and give with no expectations. You have to be pretty secure in who you are to do this. To get here you need to do work. This in itself it why DBing is valuable.
Becoming friends. Let's define friends first. From Wiki:
Quote:
Friendship is co-operative and supportive behavior between two or more people. In this sense, the term connotes a relationship which involves mutual knowledge, esteem, and affection and respect along with a degree of rendering service to friends in times of need or crisis. Friends will welcome each other's company and exhibit loyalty towards each other, often to the point of altruism. Their tastes will usually be similar and may converge, and they will share enjoyable activities. They will also engage in mutually helping behavior, such as exchange of advice and the sharing of hardship. A friend is someone who may often demonstrate reciprocating and reflective behaviors. Yet for many, friendship is nothing more than the trust that someone or something will not harm them.
Value that is found in friendships is often the result of a friend demonstrating the following on a consistent basis:
the tendency to desire what is best for the other,
sympathy and empathy,
honesty, perhaps in situations where it may be difficult for others to speak the truth, especially in terms of pointing out the perceived faults of one's counterpart,
mutual understanding.
Here is the bridge from fear to love:
- wanting what is best for the other - true giving
- sympathy and empathy-- "you need space, OK I understand that."
- honesty-- healthy boundaries, communication, and transparency
- mutual understanding --validation, no defensiveness
I would add a big one here because it is at the heart of loving yourself - forgiveness. Accept yours/his/hers faults and love anyway.
Love is a verb. It's what you do that shows your spouse you love them. Yes that is possible while seperated. Be a great parent, I read here once that women love to see their husbands play with their kids. I was all over that. See things from your WAS perspective, you can't be effective at that if you are over on the fear/anger side. Take away all of their objections and make the changes for yourself. Make yourself attractive from the inside out.
So why be friends? It is the first step to intimate love. Jealousy could work but in my mind you are starting the relationship over based on fear not love. (still have the work to do.) I want to be the kind of friend to my W that is unbeatable. I want to flip that fear of staying vs fear of leaving into the joy of staying outweighs any potential joy of leaving. It's at this stage that I can continue down the path of deepening the love. This is the second goal of DBing.
I know some of the DBers won't reconcile their M, some of the posters I learned the most from didn't. Getting across the divide to the "land of love" (sounds real cheesy I know) from the fog of fear and land of snakes will make you a stronger, wiser, and more loving person. If your spouse had a addiction how would you handle it? Just try it and see what happens. You all can handle it.
Smart man, that Coach.
Thanks for posting.
Mahhhty, thanks for posting. I am thinking about the line "being someone's second choice has consequences" and what that might mean literally. Sometimes I need a 2x4. The consequences I think are that I should detach. That I shouldn't be too easy. Not in a game playing way, but in an honest way. I am going to think on these words.
I wish I had found this board right after BD, I made so many mistakes for 4 months. I am going to look up Coach's posts. I wonder if they are still together?
Pho
I am laughing to myself thinking about what I did in the months before I started here. We should start a thread just posting what we did!
Pho
I am laughing to myself thinking about what I did in the months before I started here. We should start a thread just posting what we did!
Otw- the name of that thread for me would be "A lesson in self humiliation." Those were some bad days!
I just look back and shake my head at myself.
I am thinking about the line "being someone's second choice has consequences" and what that might mean literally. Sometimes I need a 2x4. The consequences I think are that I should detach. That I shouldn't be too easy. Not in a game playing way, but in an honest way.
I'm no expert.... But this is what I think...
Being someone's 2nd choice, comes from a place of no respect, attraction, etc (RE: Coach's comment on Fire). Being a second choice means there is no fire.
I think Being someone's second choice means they put in less. Which, because a relationship is like a seesaw, means the other person puts in more. Consequence we push them away.
Pho
I am laughing to myself thinking about what I did in the months before I started here. We should start a thread just posting what we did!
Otw- the name of that thread for me would be "A lesson in self humiliation." Those were some bad days!
I just look back and shake my head at myself.
Yep. SMH. I sang in the shower. I tried to be overly happy.
Had a great morning interaction with X-SIL and X-MIL. X-SIL's kids where there. They love me.
Time to roll up my sleeves. No kids this weekend. So will use the next 2.5 days to demo my space... and go kayaking each day after we finish!!!!
Consequence we push them away.
This phrase presumes way too much power over a wayward wife. She's already pulled away about as far a spouse can pull away from another so it's not a matter of them pulling away when you push, it's more akin to you trying to pull them back and them just avoiding and resenting the effort. Just because they resist the effort doesn't mean it's stupid to even try.
Consider, when a person jumps off a boat and you throw them a floatation device that they proceed to swim away from choosing instead to let themselves drown, was it a mistake to have thrown the floatation device? Now, perhaps, at some point throwing more floatation devices at a person unwilling to help themselves out of a dangerous situation is pointless and actually emotionally harmful to the person wasting all that energy and effort trying to save a person that doesn't want to be saved. There's also guilt to be measured, how would you feel thereafter had you thrown 0, 1, 2 up to 100 floatation devices? I imagine one would feel pretty crappy about choosing to not throw any just because the person drowning said "don't bother, I feel like drowning today", however, throwing 100 floatation devices may also make one feel guilty for wasting effort and resources trying to save a person that refused to be saved. A guilt of over investment in an outcome you can't control and never could.
My contention, NOT pursuing a wayward wife at all, in most instances, completely supports the wayward wife's rationalizations and justification. You confirm, you didn't care if she cheated, you didn't love her, you don't love her and you're actually OK with the situation. You didn't care enough to fight for her (and OM is telling her he would never do that). When you initially go crazy, begging, pursuing and being a complete fool trying to "win" her back after discovery day she pulls away and/or gets upset because you are NOT behaving in the manner her brain has chosen to rationalize HER behavior to cheat. Mostly, your upset, desperate and erratic behavior interferes with her primary [addictive puppy love hormone inducing] relationship with OM. In other words, her lack of response isn't because YOU aren't attractive. It isn't about you. It's about OM.
FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. Ephesians 5:31
2 thoughts on this scripture:
1. If we are "one flesh" with out spouse is it not completely understandable that we betrayed spouse go a little nuts and pursue the loss of our own flesh? That we don't just walk away acting like we don't care when someone cuts off a piece of us?
2. Even though our wayward spouse FEELS like we are second choice, are we really or are we and do we remain first choice for our spouse's in the eyes of the Lord? Like Eleanor Roosevelt once said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent". A decade ago my wife FELT OM was her 1st choice but now she'd tell you she was delusional in Sin and that I am and always was 1st choice. What is the truth? Are FEELINGS alone truth?
I mean we take vows to one another to love each other in good times and bad, sickness and health. So although our spouse's FEELING like they might love another person more than you is a pretty horrible circumstance wouldn't/couldn't it also be considered one of those "bad times" that we vowed to love them anyway? Is my behavior ruled by my wayward wife's FEELINGS, or my vows to love her regardless of FEELINGS? If so, what does love look like there. I don't think it's loving to just let your spouse, your flesh, walk away making the biggest mistake of their lives, without a fight. Tough love would hold them accountable for their behavior. Consistently, I don't think it's loving to keep pursing them forever in the face of repeated, consistent and firm rebuff. At some point you love them enough to let them go, while attending to the wounds inflicted upon yourself losing your own flesh.
Further, I think betrayed husband's should pursue harder and longer than betrayed wives for two reasons:
1. wayward wives almost always rationalize their adultery with notions of feeling or actually being mostly neglected in their marriages, so if you ignore, act happy about or otherwise act like you don't care that they are cheating you are actually enabling the affair by seemingly being uncaring and "neglectful" in her wayward eyes. The WW will be downright ecstatic because OM will like it too. He can keep sleeping with your wife and not have to bother with the sneaking around or lying anymore and he doesn't have to worry that some "crazy" betrayed husband is going to pop up somewhere and beat him up.
2. Wayward husbands generally love their OW AND their wife/family and are much more likely to respond to "distancing" GAL behaviors by the betrayed wife. They are much more likely to feel entitled to keeping both relationships going until they decide to prioritize one over the other. As long as both the OW and the BW allow him NOT to decide, he won't. When the BW pulls away, GAL's, 180's, distances herself for her own emotional protection she leaves her WH with only one relationship, the OW, to meet all his emotional needs as well as the perception that his wife is moving on. OW's are typically incapable of meeting all the emotional needs of a delusional entitled wayward husband for very long and hopefully the affair dies and the husband comes begging back for another chance at the marriage before the betrayed wife has moved on.
This is essentially the 180 plan and the last resort technique applied a little differently for betrayed men versus betrayed wives.
Last thought - I have personally referenced the 5 stages of grief many times. In particularly, I seem to often observe the "anger" & "depression" phases in infidelity recovery situations occurring 5-9 months after the trauma or more particularly about 5-9 months after the crisis is over (and the adrenal gland just stops pumping out adrenaline for the betrayed spouse). The betrayed spouses' become very agitated and start expressing their frustrations of the last year while also crashing emotionally and physically. Mad and Exhausted. I refer them to medical doctors for short term anti-depressants. But I've come to also learn that the trauma and associated with infidelity and betrayal is much more complex and individual than the model suggests. I know betrayed spouses still in "anger" and "depression" 20 years post affair. So at some point years ago I researched a little bit and discovered that in scientific circles the Kubler-Ross stages of grief has been mostly debunked. There is no evidence that most people most of the time go through these stages in this or any order. A quick search and I came up with a decent article about it that may be informational. Michael Shermer, columnist in American Scientific and publisher of Skeptic, in his article "Stage Fright" writes:
....
Nevertheless, the urge to compress the complexities of life into neat and tidy stages is irresistible. Psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud insisted that we moved through five stages of psychosexual development: oral, anal, phallic, latency and genital. Developmental psychologist Erik H. Erikson countered with eight stages: trust vs. mistrust (infant); autonomy vs. doubt (toddler); initiative vs. guilt (preschooler); industry vs. inferiority (school-age period); identity vs. role confusion (adolescent); intimacy vs. isolation (young adult); generativity vs. stagnation (middle age); and integrity vs. despair (older adult). Harvard University psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg postulated that our moral development progresses through six stages: parental punishment, selfish hedonism, peer pressure, law and order, social contract and principled conscience.
Why stages? We are pattern-seeking, storytelling primates trying to make sense of an often chaotic and unpredictable world. A stage theory works in a manner similar to a species-classification heuristic or an evolutionary-sequence schema. Stages also fit well into a chronological sequence where stories have set narrative patterns. Stage theories “impose order on chaos, offer predictability over uncertainty, and optimism over despair,” explained social psychologist Carol Tavris, author of The Mismeasure of Woman (Touchstone, 1993) and co-author, with Elliot Aronson, of Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) (Harcourt, 2007), in an interview with me. “One appeal of stage theories is that they tell a story — they give us a narrative to live by (‘you feel this now, but soon…’). In cognitive psychology and also in ‘narrative psychotherapy,’ there has been a lot of work on the importance of storytelling. Some therapists now make this idea explicit, helping clients change a negative, self-defeating narrative (‘look at all I suffered’) into a positive one (‘I not only survived but triumphed’).” What’s wrong with stages? First, Tavris noted, “in developmental psychology, the notion of predictable life stages is toast. Those stage theories reflected a time when most people marched through life predictably: marrying at an early age; then having children when young; then work, work, work; then maybe a midlife crisis; then retirement; then death. Those ‘passages’ theories evaporated with changing social and economic conditions that blew the predictability of our lives to hell.”
Second, Tavris continued, “is the guilt and pressure the theories impose on people who are not feeling what they think they should. This is why consumers of any kind of psychotherapy or posttraumatic intervention that promulgates the notion of ‘inevitable’ stages should be skeptical and cautious.”
Stages are stories that may be true for the storyteller, but that does not make them valid for the narrative known as science.
GB, that was helpful. I think I am in the "crashing" period you referred to, and if I don't feel better after my H leaves for his job in January, I will go to my dr. for antidepressants. I have been busy with GAL, 180, etc, but I am physically and mentally exhausted.
I was wondering what your take was on my situation. I know it is long and I don't want to hijack Mahhhty's thread, but my big issues are that my H has aligned himself with his parents against me and also has a dysfunctional relationship with our daughter age 14. Last year she had a "breakdown" and was acting out violently, H couldn't deal with her rejection of him and her issues (it was really bad and he thought I was choosing her over him, I understand why he felt that way but I was just a very desperate overwhelmed mother dealing with a suicidal 13 year old ), which drove him to an EA, and then the EA encouraged him to open up to his parents who told him it was all my fault, they have always hated me, I have destroyed his life and theirs........ my story is pretty complicated. But I am wondering if you get a chance to stop by my thread and give me your take on family of origin issues and the issues between my H and our daughter. It's ok if its too big of a topic to take on!
Pho - I don't mind any sort of hijack.
GB - I'll try to split this into three areas...
Consequence we push them away.
This phrase presumes way too much power over a wayward wife....
My comment was in light of an ongoing relationship. Not at all applicable to me. But I did find it interesting.
My contention, NOT pursuing a wayward wife at all, in most instances, completely supports the wayward wife's rationalizations and justification. You confirm, you didn't care if she cheated, you didn't love her, you don't love her and you're actually OK with the situation. You didn't care enough to fight for her (and OM is telling her he would never do that). When you initially go crazy, begging, pursuing and being a complete fool trying to "win" her back after discovery day she pulls away and/or gets upset because you are NOT behaving in the manner her brain has chosen to rationalize HER behavior to cheat. Mostly, your upset, desperate and erratic behavior interferes with her primary [addictive puppy love hormone inducing] relationship with OM. In other words, her lack of response isn't because YOU aren't attractive. It isn't about you. It's about OM.
I feel as if we have had a similar conversations. X is a non-confrontation, super passive, stubborn little lady, who shuts down when pushed and holds grudges, she DOES NOT talk about how she feels. She has NO friends outside of work, that are just her friends. If not for work friends, which now includes OM, she would just be hanging out with her family only.
I have often felt that withdrawing from a withdrawn woman, will not help. I also have felt that being withdrawn (which I was due to frequent travel) is a major reason we are in this situation, so the 180 would be to not be withdrawn. I have tried various methods to break through. And I am at a loss.
I mean we take vows to one another to love each other in good times and bad, sickness and health. So although our spouse's FEELING like they might love another person more than you is a pretty horrible circumstance wouldn't/couldn't it also be considered one of those "bad times" that we vowed to love them anyway? Is my behavior ruled by my wayward wife's FEELINGS, or my vows to love her regardless of FEELINGS? If so, what does love look like there. I don't think it's loving to just let your spouse, your flesh, walk away making the biggest mistake of their lives, without a fight. Tough love would hold them accountable for their behavior. Consistently, I don't think it's loving to keep pursing them forever in the face of repeated, consistent and firm rebuff. At some point you love them enough to let them go, while attending to the wounds inflicted upon yourself losing your own flesh.
I don't think many can play the "For Better or Worse Card" as much as I have tried to. I agree (and my letter identifies so) that I believe we failed our vows and our children. I'm open to trying anything (as I think I've proved) but I have no idea, how to turn this around besides doing LRT and just focusing on me.
Your post seems as if you expect me to rally. Rally back, don't give up, give it my best. Man... I'm honestly at a loss of what I could possibly do. I'm not giving up and I do have faith. But I'm confident I don't know how to get there from here. So perhaps moving on is the only thing for me.
Slightly depressing previous post... but here is some Coach knowledge for you.
I have a small, very solid core of people who I consider to be my friends. If any one of them betrayed my trust, or stuck a knife in my back, they would be off the friend list. Gone. It's just that simple.
Yep that's what seperates fear from love - trust. That faith that the other has my best interest at heart. Faith, you need it to believe. Believing is stronger that feeling or thinking.
So you need trust in your own actions, what I am doing is good for me regardless of the outcome.
That get's to Thinkers point of having confidence (loving yourself) enougth to be fearless. So the idea of being friends is to restablish the trust thru your actions.
The WAS has felt and is as hurt as the LBS is. We dehumanise them by using words like - script, WAS, fog, MLCers, cake-eaters. Not all of their behavior is honorable at times but we married a person who we vowed to love, honor and cherish througth sickness and health.
As a DBer you are called to lead thru this time. That is honorable, strong, loving, and wise.
People will let you down, we will be filled with doubt and feel forsaken. Faith is a simple idea but hard to put into practice. Forgiveness is a powerful weapon in the love arsenal. If you ever had to ask for forgiveness and then receive it then you get the power of it. I wouldn't be so quick to just check a fellow human off my list.
My W showed me a funny cartoon just yesterday. A woman was at the Pearly Gates and St Peter says to her, "You never colored outside the lines but you sure talked about everyone else when they did."
Cheers
Nooooo....I was just having a general DB marital recovery strategy discussion. I'm not suggesting you do any of that. You've made your position clear. I wish you'd have discovered her affair early on and you could have fought a battle with full knowledge of the entire battle field. I forget, were you the guy I posted to saying that I bet her affair is with someone at work that was either married or his career would be hurt if the affair was revealed? I think that was before Cadet was a mod and my posts would sometimes take days to get through.
I agree that your 180 plan was to be NOT neglectful and I so appreciate seeing you say that. I usually see it presented here to a begging chasing betrayed husband as they need to 180 THAT behavior, and yes, to a point begging is counterproductive but for most men the full 180 isn't "act like you are fine with what they are doing" because that's just a continuation of their prior uncaring behavior. To ignore them hoping they somehow will end up chasing you is just not how men and woman ever interact. Men pursue the objects of their affections.
Unfortunately Coach passed away a couple of years ago. He and Greek were together till the end. She even became a great poster here giving her insights.
And despite what GB insists doesn't work, coach let Greek go. When she was on her own, she realized what she had and came back. The majority of relationships turn around when the LBS lets go.
if anyone has a link to Coach's threads I would be grateful
isittoolate - Sandi posted the link on my thread. It is on page 5.
Mr Bond -
Thank you for the info about Coach. I'm sorry to hear that. I truly would have liked to have bought him a beer.
I hear what you are saying and I have tried to commit myself to this path (GAL, Focus on Me, Detach, Drop the Rope) to the best of my ability. I guess I'm just not confident in it being successful. I try to have faith that by moving on our paths will cross again. But she is a passive person, who has no relationship with me whatsoever, who now has someone else, at a job she loves in which she travels to cities all over the world, I know she loves the kids, but she does have an expectation that others (her Mom/Dad or in desperate times Me) will pick up the pieces of her fast pace lifestyle. In my mind the most important piece may be her kidney transplant, subsequently going through this process with the OM. Furthermore, deepening their bond.
Of course, this could all be written off as guessing banter from a LBS.
Mentally, I understand that I don't have to know how the pieces fit together. It is just hard to be fully invested in a path without total confidence. At the end of the day, I do know the system works. And I know it makes me into a better father and person.
Catchup... I had a good weekend. Lots of work renovating the new business space, but I got to kayak at dusk both days as well. Went out with some of my friends who helped demo and some kayaking friends Saturday night. Drank too much, but had a good time. There was a super hot girl at the bar, in which everyone ragged on me to talk to her. I didn't, but I have to start thinking about forming new relationships, and step out of my comfort zone.
I had a great conversation with the munchkins last night on the phone. My D was such a cutie. She kept saying on the phone probably 20+ times... "Daddy you are soooo handsome." Or things of that nature. A few times she would say it and ask X for validation. I spoke over her each time so that I wouldn't hear her response.
The last couple phone conversations, while they are with X have been really good. My kids and I have really solid sustaining conversations. I think that speaks to our new and improved relationships.
I don't engage X at all on the phone and I naturally shy away from any conversations that do engage her. She often interjects to explain something to me, but I take those statements and then follow up with the kids about them.
In the grand scheme of things, this probably doesn't help me build any sort of relationship with her. But I do think it is perfectly natural.
Have a good week all!
"I guess I'm just not confident in it being successful. "
That's the problem. You're still looking at this as being a plan that you have to obsess over. In order to detach, you really just let go.
Mahhty
I know 100% what you mean about the phone conversations. Sam thing happens here. I don't acknowledge her but talk to kids about what she says. Not sure if it is right or not!
Mr bond.
I understand what you are saying but for those of us that have to fake it , it's all we have!! We know we aren't truly detached. I ah r battled with this for my entire time now. Everything I do I still wonder in the back of head of it will produce a result. Hopefully some day we can get there
I am one of the fakers! Trying to do better, but I also at the same time accept who I am, emotions and all. I am trying to let go. Inching forward. Mahhty, you are awesome! Your daughter is adorable.
I hope this isn't a hijack, but I have a page on my computer with quotes from the posts on here that have helped me the most. It's like a DB highlight reel. Here is the one I have from Greek on Coach:
"What Greek says Coach did to win her back:
I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.
It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.
Greek
It's strange but I fail to see how the Greek/Coach story demonstrates anything in a wayward wife situation. I actually see Greek as a little bit more of the hero in their story.
Greek is unhappy and unsatisfied in her marriage to Coach (he was literally a coach which I'm guessing meant he focused nearly all his emotional energy on the kids on his teams versus his wife so I get it). She told Coach to leave and he said no so she said, fine then, I'm going and she left. She didn't leave for another man or for any midlife crisis reasons she left because she felt neglected and taken for granted by the one man she wanted more from. The worst part was probably that she knew he was capable of doing it (she witnessed all the love he poured into those kids year after year) - when was it going to be her turn.
Coach then committed himself to learning (just like you'd expect a coach to do) and read a bushel of relationship books and committed to working on changing himself and attracting his wife back. This was all his wife wanted....a spouse willing to do the work, learn how to be a better husband and participate in a relationship with her.
This could actually be an example of how Greek let coach go giving him an ultimatum to get out or she was leaving but she wasn't going to put up with this crap anymore and then Coach responded. The beautiful part is that thereafter she posted giving him all the glory for saving their marriage (when she's the one the initiated the whole process).
I wasn't here at DB at the time so I don't know precisely how this went down and reviewing the histories is difficult but I just don't see how this applies to a wayward wife scenario.
Greek left unhappy and out of love with Coach but there wasn't another guy involved so she was available to NOTICE coach's changes and listen to his heartfelt apologies. Her heart and mind weren't elsewhere. She was still emotionally available. To the extent he "let her go" and "dropped the rope" by that point she could already witness a change in him and how he was becoming the man she married years prior and if she didn't come home- she was going to lose him. So she jumped back into that Briar patch post haste.
Conversely, with a wayward wife - if you just drop the rope and "let them go" - they'll just be tickled pink and go. There's no looking back to say "oh no, I'm losing my husband" because they've just spent the last few months rationalizing and justifying how awful you are and NOW --- you just seem content to let them go which just proves you never really cared about them at all.
Wayward husbands look back. Let them go works with wayward husbands. Wayward wives - not so much.
That all being said, after a year or so of trying to put humpty dumpty back together again, GAL'ing, 180'ing and trying to get wife to notice you and change, a betrayed husband can then go to "let them go" and just be done the relationship while still retaining a side plate of hope that maybe they'll be one of the couples that rekindles their marriage years down the road. Essentially you are waiting for the affair to end and it might never end so get on living your own life and your (ex) wife will call you if and when the affair ends. They almost always do and the healthier and happier you are at that time, the more likely they'll regret what they've done and seek reconciliation. Chances are you'll have moved on by then....but maybe not.
GB
I am interested in hearing your opinion
So w is out moving on her own. No proof of OM. Snooping is really not the option at the moment.
What is the play? Still have communication because of kids. No one on one.
Forget it and walk away? She wanted to leave for reasons that I thin everyone here would believe are not deal
Breakers but her feelings.
What do you do? I am not patronizing by any means. I am honestly interested. I know you hold a strong stance on finding out if there is a pa and that most times there is some sort of affair.
Thank you in advance.
I read this all late last night, there is a lot of information in here to think about…
"I guess I'm just not confident in it being successful. "
That's the problem. You're still looking at this as being a plan that you have to obsess over. In order to detach, you really just let go.
Mr Bond – I know you are right. I feel myself going through the process. I’m not there yet but I know I am making progress. Last night was a good example of this. I’ll explain at the end.
I know 100% what you mean about the phone conversations. Sam thing happens here. I don't acknowledge her but talk to kids about what she says. Not sure if it is right or not!
OT - I'm not sure if it is the best path forward. But I think it is perfectly natural. And I'm confident that it doesn't actually matter.
Inching forward. Mahhty, you are awesome! Your daughter is adorable.
Pho – Thank you! I needed that. You aren’t so bad yourself!!! Keep on inching!
I hope this isn't a hijack, but I have a page on my computer with quotes from the posts on here that have helped me the most. It's like a DB highlight reel. Here is the one I have from Greek on Coach:
"What Greek says Coach did to win her back....
PP - Thank you! This is a good reminder. I've read this and posted it in the past, but it is definitely a solid reminder. Strength, Confidence and Grace!
That all being said, after a year or so of trying to put humpty dumpty back together again, GAL'ing, 180'ing and trying to get wife to notice you and change, a betrayed husband can then go to "let them go" and just be done the relationship while still retaining a side plate of hope that maybe they'll be one of the couples that rekindles their marriage years down the road. Essentially you are waiting for the affair to end and it might never end so get on living your own life and your (ex) wife will call you if and when the affair ends. They almost always do and the healthier and happier you are at that time, the more likely they'll regret what they've done and seek reconciliation. Chances are you'll have moved on by then....but maybe not.
GB - I agree with this. I've been thinking a lot about this lately.
All - Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate the effort and support!
Update from last night...
I was crashing at a friend's last night while on travel. Him and his W are very good friends of mine (their wedding was this past August). They both loved my W, when she was my W. Now they are skeptical and protective. They are well educated individuals and she is a therapist with a specialty for trauma victims and people with mental health disorders.
So our conversations are good ones and tend to challenge me (which I enjoy). We started talking about the process of letting go. Subsequently, discussing my concerns of letting go, and her coming back later.
My friend's W asked me these questions:
- Do you want her to come back?
- How long are you willing to wait?
- Don't you feel as if you are putting your life on hold?
- You said her coming back would be the best thing for the family, but would it be the best thing for you?
I didn't have steadfast answers, but they are very thought provoking. It was clear based on their tones, that they don't necessarily agree with my thought process. But they totally do see my growth and commented multiple times.
Earlier in the evening, I tagged along with them at their Christmas Party. I went outside for a minute to call the kids. D probed on where I was, which lead to X probing. Then X sent me pictures via text. Followed by multiple text messages. I responded once, and stopped responding after that. I feel like I have been seeing things more clearly lately.
I'm sure I will have many more ups and downs moving forward, and although I couldn't answer my friend's W's questions, I feel pretty good about where I am.
PS.... Great quote....
A Truth About Karma That You Won't Hear from the Mainstream Version.
"Now as a man is like this or like that, according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be;
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad;
he becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds;
And here they say that a person consists of desires,
and as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap."
- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 7th Century BC
Sandi's 13,472nd Post is a good one for LBHs & WWs.
Vise's ThreadI hope you will allow me to use your thread to maybe express more than just this particular subject at hand.
Not smothering her is so very important. Sometimes we say to love them from a distance. I don't know why that some LBH'S get the idea they are required to stop having feelings when they detach, separate, or even divorce. Nobody ever has to stop loving another person. It is usually better for the LBS to love from a healthy distance (whether a few steps, or separate lives).
When I was the WW, I could not stand for my H to hover over me, touch me, or even share the same room. When I made the decision to end the A and stay in my M, I still felt the same way for a while. Honestly, it was quite some time.
LBH's must try to understand, as best as they can, that even after the A ends, she has to gradually get back to being the W she once was. As painful as it must be on the H to know she doesn't want him touching her or to get too close........he needs to remember it is part of her adjustment and getting to where she can heal. She is not able to give him the physical and emotional evidence of loving him, like he longs for her to do. Not at that time. The best physical evidence she can give him is to follow a transparency plan after she sends a letter to OM ending all forms of contact.
Slowly, but surely, she will come around......and so will her feelings for her H........if she has come out of her waywardness. Ending an A does not garantee she'll stay in the M. It is her waywardness that is the true enemy. She did not become wayward overnight and she won't come out of it overnight. Just as it took years for her resentment to slowly build and disrespect became apparent, it will take a significant period of time for her to gain respect for her H. Her H has to find forgiveness for her betrayal (and whatever other hurts she caused in her waywardness). The WW has to find forgiveness for her H, related to all those things that caused the resentment in her heart. We are talking, probably, years of things she has pushed down or that cannot be undone. Things that happened in their past. Perhaps it helped shape the kind of MR they had together. Although the H may not feel she has as much to forgive as he does, it is very difficult for her to let go of the past resentments. I am not saying there are no women who can let go and forgive things in the past; I am just saying that it seems that most females struggle letting go of the resentment that has been there in their hearts for so many years. However, if they really want to heal, they can do it.
We had been M a long time when I had an A. There were decades of resentment. Although I had tried to put it behind me, I realize I had not been able to be free of it. It took about two years of praying and earnestly searching my heart for any left-over hardness. I finally was able to find peace. Let me clarify something. I have a certain sadness about some things, b/c I believe our M would have been much happier and we would have been much closer if my H had not been a passive nice-guy type of man. However, after my own actions of waywardness, it certainly brought me down from any snags of self-righteousness I may have hidden from myself. It helped me to accept the fact that both of us has failed each other. It may have been in different ways, but we each hurt one another. I cannot say his sins were worse an mine. His may have had a longer lasting affect on our MR, but mine were more devastating. Nobody can point a finger without at least one pointing back to themselves.
I appeal to all of you who are so heart broken and desperately want to see some sign that the WW really loves you, or is ready to work on the M, or whatever........to remember what I said about the time it takes for her to process her own sh't and find healing, before she can truly be the W you need and want.
I wish I could talk to every single WW who has tried to find happiness outside their M. I wish I could save some heartache for some of you. And, I wish I could speed things up to the happy ever after part of the story.
At times, my words may come across maybe a little strong and not what the LBS wants to hear when they first arrive. Just know I have a special place in my heart for all of you, and pray for your MR.
Mahhty
Good thoughts. I am working through those questions you posted from the friend. Some of them I can answer others I need to think hard on.
Super productive day, and I got the munchkins back.
Some of you know I got rid of her on all social media's and untagged myself and/or deleted all photos of the two of us. Moments ago I checked FB and they show you the memories of today in the past.
December 16, 2009 at 6:38pm ·
Come home cowboy...your wife misses you♥
Happy EARLY Birthday, can't wait for Friday!
Its not the end of the world. Nothing I can't deal with. But kind'ave a bummer. A little reminder of the fun woman I once knew.
Life goes on.
I'm with you matty. Went on FB for the first time in a month today and someone had liked all of the old photos of my W and I. Someone I don't even know!
Shut the computer, took five deep breaths, and was back in the game staying present. It's hard my friend. One day at a time, no matter what that day throws at you.
PP
1 day at a time. Absolutely right PP.
My birthday was the other day in between posts. I woke up to X-MIL saying Happy Birthday to me on FB (the first person), 50 min later X-FIL texts me saying it as well. All X relatives come across at some point to say it.... However the day ended and XW did not. Interesting but not surprising. I had the kids from Wed to Tonight, and she only called tonight.
I've seen a lot of friends over the last couple days and all conversations (in this area... D, XW, etc), have lead to a moment in which the conversation mimic's the one I posted about a couple days ago.
I was crashing at a friend's last night while on travel. Him and his W are very good friends of mine (their wedding was this past August). They both loved my W, when she was my W. Now they are skeptical and protective. They are well educated individuals and she is a therapist with a specialty for trauma victims and people with mental health disorders.
So our conversations are good ones and tend to challenge me (which I enjoy). We started talking about the process of letting go. Subsequently, discussing my concerns of letting go, and her coming back later.
My friend's W asked me these questions:
- Do you want her to come back?
- How long are you willing to wait?
- Don't you feel as if you are putting your life on hold?
- You said her coming back would be the best thing for the family, but would it be the best thing for you?
I'm still not sure how I would answer these questions (mostly 1 and 4).
This self-righteous support dependent woman I know now, I wish I had never known. This woman who in a year has not discussed sports for the kids, schooling for the kids, or any kind of parenting and has missed two screenings for our kids.... I wish I did not know her. But there was a woman, who is now a memory, who was a great Mom. I'm not sure why... OM, Trauma of S's birth, Kidney Disease, Me... But I know I don't have to know. It's her life. Her path.
BTW.... I'm going to start putting myself out there. It will be difficult and perhaps awkward in the beginning, but I deserve to have fun and deserve to meet new people.
Good luck, Mahhhty. I know this will be somewhat weird at first, but you're right. You do deserve to have fun and get chances to meet new people. You're still so young, you've got a lot of experiences yet to gain!
Thanks for stopping by my thread with your support. Your words made a lot of sense, and just reinforced my commitment to my present course. One of these days, I hope to be where you are now. I'm in no rush, because I have so much healing to do - but I'd like to believe I have happiness in my future.
Thanks Ancaire.
Keep venting. Keep throwing out these ideas. Keep learning. Keep growing. Hard work always pays off. Always.
Headed to my D's XMas show. Most of X's family will be there (probably). Last night X called and tried to assert which dress D should wear for her show. Seriously, you want to be a parent now, why???? to create appearances that you actually give a [censored]. But you won't discuss sports or activities for the kids. Then this AM, X-MIL even asked what dress D was wearing.
Rant over.... So silly that artificial things are the things she is trying to control. So what did I do. I let my D pick.
Wish me luck.
How lovely and which dress did D pick?
The pink one?
The Elsa one?
Or the funny Xmas one?
Adorable
V
Marty,
I saw your post in my thread. I'm not on a beach but I am doing great. How are you?
Merry Christmas to the best friend in the whole world!
Bob
Thank you both for checking in on me! I hope you are having a wonderful holiday.
How lovely and which dress did D pick?
The pink one?
The Elsa one?
Or the funny Xmas one?
Adorable
V
Ha ha... She picked the Pink One. Naturally, she is a girlie girl.
Marty,
I saw your post in my thread. I'm not on a beach but I am doing great. How are you?
Merry Christmas to the best friend in the whole world!
Bob
Merry Christmas Bob! I hope you have a great holiday!
Holidays are hard but I survived.
XW bought me two presents (from the kids). They were better than last year. I helped the kids pick out presents for XW as well. I was going for 2 as well, but ended with 3. Nothing from me. X-ILs bought me two presents. I bought presents for X-nieces, and gift cards for all the X-ILs.
XW didn't buy anything for my parents or extended family.
Life goes on.
This was the first Christmas in 18 years that our families were not together, to allow the WW to manipulate everyone else's life is not going to work for me anymore! Let her ruin her new BF Christmas.
Mahhty, I'm so glad life and work is keeping you busy, but you're missed around here.
Happy New Years!
Mahhhty. I came to see how you were doing. I can tell that you're still struggling much. I've only read this page though, so I may be off. I hope you're searching for the source of your pain. Some people react rather "well" to a D and it (and IC) made me realize that it was first and foremost a trigger for something in me. In my case, as you may remember, it was a serious lack of confidence that I could find someone worthy to share my life (not just that of course). Once I started flirting and dating, I gained a little more confidence and realized that there was another life out there for me, different but perhaps just as good or better. If you're ready to start dating, I'll recommend to you the same book that I recommend to others because it helped me: "Models - Attract Women Through Honesty" by Mark Manson. It helped me to approach women and to deal better with my D.
By the way, I
moved to "Surviving the big D".
This was the first Christmas in 18 years that our families were not together, to allow the WW to manipulate everyone else's life is not going to work for me anymore! Let her ruin her new BF Christmas.
That sounds tough 2lt. I didn't make it to double digit marriage, and mine is still tough. Put your best foot forward, learn and adapt.
Mahhty, I'm so glad life and work is keeping you busy, but you're missed around here.
Happy New Years!
Happy New Years Gmum! I've been busy. In a way it is sad, that I only come here when I'm dealing with a rut. I'm sorry for that. If I told you what has been happening with my biz you wouldn't believe me. Things are moving in the right direction.
Mahhhty. I came to see how you were doing. I can tell that you're still struggling much. I've only read this page though, so I may be off. I hope you're searching for the source of your pain. Some people react rather "well" to a D and it (and IC) made me realize that it was first and foremost a trigger for something in me. In my case, as you may remember, it was a serious lack of confidence that I could find someone worthy to share my life (not just that of course). Once I started flirting and dating, I gained a little more confidence and realized that there was another life out there for me, different but perhaps just as good or better. If you're ready to start dating, I'll recommend to you the same book that I recommend to others because it helped me: "Models - Attract Women Through Honesty" by Mark Manson. It helped me to approach women and to deal better with my D.
By the way, I
moved to "Surviving the big D".
Thanks Mozza! I'll check out the book. I've seen you post about it before. Quick Story... I was working at my shop this AM and had to run some errands. I ran into a bunch of people I am associated with through a NPO. One of which (isn't D'ed yet but is on his way). He was slouched on a couch with a girl next to him (flirtatiously) and they were all explaining how they had a fun night and rough morning. I remember thinking... he isn't in D'ed yet! My problem is I am a puppy dog, I am too loyal to the idea of marriage, the idea of for better or for worst. This is the worst right so I should stay and fight. While that sounds noble on paper, it does nothing for me in the long haul. Learning, adapting, growing have to be my salvation. I need to create a new life for myself and use all this as motivation. She is not the person I remember. That person is gone. With all that said. I really only come here when I'm down. So I think that is why it appears as if I am struggling, but the time in between posts I am really quite happy with the world around me.
Update....
For the last while.... I've been really good. No snooping, no checking, no texting. Nothing on my end. I don't respond. I live my life. Perhaps b/c of the holiday and trepidation for tomorrow (a big day for my startup, I am being interviewed by the local paper!!!!!!!!!) or because she hasn't called her kids in three days (and they had hand, foot and mouth... BTW Seriously what kind of mother does she think she is). I checked out OM's instagram. I hadn't done that in over 2 months. I shouldn't have but I did. Needless to say, it didn't help. Only helped affirm what I already know.
Meanwhile, the night before last I signed up for online dating. Negotiating that seems a little cumbersome or awkward. But its time. I sure could use some flirting of some nature, make sure all the pieces still work....
On that night Happy New Year DB'ers.
Every relationship needs a hero, be yours!
Mahhty, so glad to hear from you, especially such a positive update.
I'm glad things are taking off for you professionally. Make sure the paper mentions that you are currently single, you'll have women lined up in no time ;-)
Not snooping is hard. I'm so proud of myself for not having googled OW. I'm sure she's stunning and knowing for sure will make me feel like cr@p. I did however check my H's bank info just a few minutes ago to see what he was up to tonight. So sad, I know.
Happy New Year. I hope you don't forget about us completely in the new year, but I am glad you're ready to move on.
Haha G! You are funny and sweet!
I will never forget about the board!!! And I look forward to the opportunity to tell my story and pay anything I've learned forward to others.
Wish my H would agree with that haha
Please start a new thread.
My problem is I am a puppy dog, I am too loyal to the idea of marriage, the idea of for better or for worst. This is the worst right so I should stay and fight. While that sounds noble on paper, it does nothing for me in the long haul. Learning, adapting, growing have to be my salvation. I need to create a new life for myself and use all this as motivation.
In what way is that noble? I find it noble when people are working through the hardships of marriage, when people stay even when their spouse is chronically ill, etc. All the reasons when they would not betray their vows. But you're D'ed now. There are no more vows, no one to betray.
I wonder if the finality of your D has sunk in yet. I'm saying so because you've been D'ed for almost a year now. You seem to think that going forward is a choice, but it's really the only thing you have. You're not dropping any option, leaving anything on the table. I know we talk about leaving the door open and all that, but it may have been overblown in your mind, as if you keeping an eye on that door (like a puppy ;-)) would increase the chances of getting her back. She said she was unhappy, she left, you're D'ed. The rest of your life has begun.
It may be beneficial for you to think of yourself as single, as never having been married. Think of the man you were before you met your XW, how you were available and, maybe, eager to meet someone to share your life with, or maybe just have fun. Think of yourself as free, not burdened.
Mozza…
Thanks for checking in on me. I appreciate it!
Noble as defined is having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals. I think it is noble to believe in an ability to heal your family and heal a relationship. I also don’t believe there is any such thing as finality. Any relationship is a fluid entity. I needed no one or any paper to justify how I felt about her. Furthermore, we all have heard stories of relationships rekindling after D, 5 or 10 years later. Similarly, we all know D’ed people with kids have to maintain some kind of relationship that continues.
I realize my erratic posting (or posting only when down or upset) does not give anyone a good indication of where I am. Especially, when I come here to journal, rant, complain, etc.
You’ve always checked in on me and gave me solid guidance. I do agree with a lot in your post and I see some of myself in it and believe in what you have identified. Thank you…
I think I’ve just figured out the new thread name…
My problem is I am a puppy dog, I am too loyal to the idea of marriage, the idea of for better or for worst. This is the worst right so I should stay and fight. While that sounds noble on paper, it does nothing for me in the long haul. Learning, adapting, growing have to be my salvation. I need to create a new life for myself and use all this as motivation.
In what way is that noble? I find it noble when people are working through the hardships of marriage, when people stay even when their spouse is chronically ill, etc. All the reasons when they would not betray their vows. But you're D'ed now. There are no more vows, no one to betray.
I wonder if the finality of your D has sunk in yet. I'm saying so because you've been D'ed for almost a year now. You seem to think that going forward is a choice, but it's really the only thing you have. You're not dropping any option, leaving anything on the table. I know we talk about leaving the door open and all that, but it may have been overblown in your mind, as if you keeping an eye on that door (like a puppy ;-)) would increase the chances of getting her back. She said she was unhappy, she left, you're D'ed. The rest of your life has begun.
It may be beneficial for you to think of yourself as single, as never having been married. Think of the man you were before you met your XW, how you were available and, maybe, eager to meet someone to share your life with, or maybe just have fun. Think of yourself as free, not burdened.
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2638860#Post2638860