My first thread was titled "Avidya" which is a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is ignorance, delusion, unlearned and unwise.
Here is a link to Avidya:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2597117&page=1My second thread was titled "Vidya" which is also a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is correct knowledge or clarity.
Here is a link to Vidya :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2601644&page=1My third thread was titled "Sati-sampajanna" means a clear understanding of reality appearing in the present moment.
Here is a link to Sati-sampajanna :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2607958&page=1My fourth thread was titled "Panna-vimutti" which means deliverance through wisdom.
Here is a link to "Panna-vimutti" :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2614294&page=1The name I have chosen to title this thread is the Sanskrit word "titikSate".
titikSate means suffer with courage or patience, bear with firmness, endure patiently.
In all aspects of my life I hope to suffer, bear and endure patiently.
Another beautiful thread title Mutatio. I hope you do not suffer but endure whatever is to come throughout the course of this thread with the same wisdom and patience you've displayed throughout your entire situation.
You are a man of great strength and an open heart, two traits that most men work their whole lives for.
Cheers to a new thread and hopefully positive developments within it.
PP
Your a kind soul PigPen, thank you. I think we are all special here. Not everyone comes to this site, reads the book, does the work, looks into the mirror and takes the long hard look at the reflection. That takes something deep down inside to do. This quote from a Disney movie says it all:
“The flower that blooms in adversity is the rarest and most beautiful of all.”
I am beginning to see changes in myself. Nothing radical, more confidence, greater self worth, less anxiety about a future alone. I am evolving.
The title of this thread speaks to me at this stage of my life. I will suffer and endure with courage or patience.
Another great thread title, Mutatio! I am so looking forward to the day where your title is something that means "Joy and love" because that is what you deserve and I certainly believe that is where you are headed. In the meantime, titikSate, you are evolving, you are a strong and kind and compassionate man and I am enjoying your progress and friendship. Wishing you a great day!
My swansong thread has been named by pho.
This will be the title of my last thread if the marriage survives:
kAmopahatacittAGga - one whose mind and body are overcome with love
This will be the title of my last thread if the marriage does not survive:
kAmopahatacittAGga - one whose mind and body are overcome with love
Either way you all are stuck with me for a long time so be well, be strong.
Things have gone quiet again. If she eventual decides she wants to divorce days like this will make it easier to accept. The isolation of the silent treatment is abrasive to my love. I still love my wife deeply but the lack of intimacy and conversation challenge it.
Understandable...very understandable.
"All Along the Watchtower" as written by Bob Dylan
There must be some way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine
Plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth
No reason to get excited,the thief, he kindly spoke
There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late
All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl
I just read this about the songs meaning.
"It's cool that a 35 year old song can still get people to think and more, to discuss meaning. That's the power of poetry. I've been listening to this song since 1968 and have a few thoughts. Back then Dylan was not writing or talking about Jesus at all, certainly not in any way that foreshadowed his conversion experience ten years later. But he had written poetry for a long time about the meaning of life and our dilemmas as thinking beings. What is there to believe in? What has real meaning? is there anyone we can trust? What is the risk of stepping outside the norms and commonplace meanings of things and looking at ourselves directly? This song, I think, borrows a mythical style and setting to set up the problem of meaninglessness in our existence. The two personalities are both outsiders, a joker who lacks conventional dignity and a thief who lacks conventional morality. They are outside of the walls of psychological safety, where the regular social order still holds, despite the threats from wolves and howling winds. I read these as metaphors for the psychological dangers one must face when throwing off easy explanations of life's meaning. One must be very brave to be outside those walls. But there is no going back once you have cast off conventions -"You and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate, let us not talk falsely now the hour is getting late." This is a crisis, he's saying, a crisis of existence itself."
I did not write this but it speaks to me.I am outside of the walls of psychological safety. This is where I am residing and have be for quite a while
How about you?
She does not talk to me. She does not look at me. She walks through house as if I am not there. Having to wake up each morning and face this wears heavy on my heart.
Yes, the constant reminder of the way she feels is unavoidable.The only thing you can do is control how you let it affect you. It really tests your pma and resolve. I hope you manage to not let your feelings show,as that is not attractive. I know this, as I often have battled just to avoid being negative due to poor interactions.
Feelings change. That is a fact. You know this. That is why we persevere. Refocus on you or do something for you today.
You swing between being down because of her treatment and being calm & collected when you think of yourself. I love the attitude of the second mutatio.
"You swing between being down because of her treatment and being calm & collected when you think of yourself. I love the attitude of the second mutatio."
Thank you roiste, I like the second mutatio better also. I love this woman so deeply and thoroughly that I am deluding myself and most likely hanging onto false hope. I am sacred to death of this outcome but will keep trying and see it through.
Turtle won the race, M. You're being true to yourself and believe. You're an inspiration to those of us who have trouble with patience. I'm still rooting for you!
I want to ask my wife whats going on. Do you think it will hurt me to do that?
Yes it will.
Thin about it, if she say nothing, will you believe her?
If she is honest and admits to everything, will that make you feel better?
Zipp it, drink a gallon of STFU juice and then have some more STFU juice just in case...
I am about to cry, this is so hard. The smart play is to leave it alone and I will but she is killing me slowly.
Thank you Vapo, I appreciate your quick response.
M, I am sorry, if you need to know what is going on with her, ask here and we can role play it for you. We can make you glad you didn't ask in real life.
Mutatio, you are an awesome man. Your W knows this. Whatever she us going through, is hers to deal with. You are an innocent bystander on some of this. We all have played a part in the states of our M, but remember that some of this is completely out of your control. Try to not take it personally. I know that is tough, it's your W we are talking about. But, if she is angry or depressed, you may just be an easy target for it. May not be at all your fault.
I may be way off base here. Not sure. But that is some advice that I have to remind myself of. I went through sepression, and my W caught the brunt of it. So, I know first hand.
Be strong, you are a great guy
I truly understand the pain of loving someone and getting nothing in return. I'm so sorry it's happening to you. You are truly awesome, and such a great example for the rest of us. It's my greatest wish for you that your W will appreciate all you've done to hang in there and hold your M together. I wish my H had even the tiniest portion of the commitment you've shown. I'm not sure your W deserves you, but as long as she is what you want most in this world, I will be right here for you - cheering you on.
Thank you dear friends. I spoke with her about the dog and if he should go to the vet. Not one word about our relationship. It was a pleasant discussion. She looked so beautiful. She is my kryptonite.
Brother, you and I live in the same house just miles apart. Someone asked me last week if my W had some kind of spell on me. I think she might.
I understand what you are saying about kryptonite Mutatio, and that's what makes this the hardest. The most gut wrenching. What will (censored) your life up on every level.
As someone who spent years courting his wife, got dumped by her twice before being M'ed, and still holds on to the belief that we haven't finished our lives together just yet, I feel you. There is nothing like the pain of butting up against your strongest belief.
All I can offer is what I am choosing to believe. That either we will end up together some way, or that my greatest lesson in life will come from learning to live without her. That I will experience a pain so great that I will be able to look at someone else that is hurting and know exactly what they are going through - and be able to speak comfort to them as an equal.
You my friend have the heart of an artist and the soul of a wise traveler. You love deeply, speak wisely and even from the little you type are it is apparent that you are a healer in some manner. Your words cut through all of the BS in threads in an instant.
I'm sorry you are in pain Mutatio, I bear witness to your suffering and pray that it is transforming you in a capacity that hasn't been shown to you yet. I just can't believe in a world where a man that speaks the way you do is being tested for no reason.
You may move far away, and you may only seek comfort in the companionship of a dog. But where ever you go, that place will be blessed by a sage.
Stay strong. Everyone suffers in some capacity. Everyone has battles and a great test. This is yours. And you are passing it with grace.
PP
she is killing me slowly.
What can you do to go about taking this power back from her?
PigPen, I am teary eyed from your post. Your words touch me deeply. I too feel that this experience has forever changed me. Never in my life have I encountered such pain, such isolation, such a total lack of control. From this has blossomed more compassion, empathy and respect for other peoples struggles. Thank you for your kindness in my moment of need PigPen.
Hello Azzork, I think the answer to your question is to decouple the behavior she is exhibiting towards me with possible outcomes from her working through her struggles.
I am equating her cold indifference and silence with divorcing me. Thank you Azzork, you are wise. I think I have a new goal.
I feel for you brother.
I learned somewhere that pain is not caused by what someone does or even why they do it, but by the meaning and importance that we giveto it. From that we change the meaning and hence how it affects us.
I have not mastered this but I believe it is true. Give it a try. The meaning you give it does not have to be true but just possible. That shows that your original belief/meaning could be wrong, hence making it weaker.
I'll reread your threads and try offer a more informed view. But from whati remember you have been a rock. I struggle between fight or flight. You are stronger than me. You doubt the outcome but not your path.
Hope you have a good weekend.
Mutatio, wishing you some peace and contentment today and this weekend. I don't have advice to give, just my kindest thoughts and my gratitude that you are a part of this forum, and my sincere wish that your wife sees in you the man that the rest of us see.
Hello Azzork, I think the answer to your question is to decouple the behavior she is exhibiting towards me with possible outcomes from her working through her struggles.
I am equating her cold indifference and silence with divorcing me. Thank you Azzork, you are wise. I think I have a new goal.
Her cold, indifferent silence is about her. It is
not about you.
While it hurts to watch, you cant let it tear down the person
you are.
Stay strong, buddy.
Azzork is 100% right. Not to hijack your thread but I have changed so much since BD, and definitely done 180's in the areas where H had his biggest complaints. Went to MC last night and H was complaining that I don't like to ride my bike. Which proves to me that it really isn't about me.
I can guarantee that if I got on a bike today and started getting into it, he'd be excited about it for a week, then he'd get silent again and probably complain next time that I don't knit. Or skydive. Or whatever. It is not about me, and it is not about you.
Yeah, I got it in the neck for having a bath every day!
Huddy! My H complained that I shower instead of taking a bath!
Buddha was once threatened with death by a bandit called Angulimal.
"Then be good enough to fulfill my dying wish," said Buddha. "Cut off the branch of that tree."
One slash of the sword, and it was done! "What now?" asked the bandit.
"Put it back again," said Buddha.
The bandit laughed. "You must be crazy to think that anyone can do that."
"On the contrary, it is you who are crazy to think that you are mighty because you can wound and
destroy. That is the task of children. The mighty know how to create and heal."
This is how we should direct our lives. I will try each day to make the world a better place. Thank you all for helping me in my moment of emotional conflict.
Mutatio, I needed to hear that today. Was having doubts, wondering what am I fighting for? I am not fighting to destroy something, I am trying to heal myself and my marriage. Thank you. Now I will be going out for a bike ride. Just kidding!
My H complained that I like showers
and baths...(just kidding). I think it's all part of the script. A few people have posted that their S said they were too tall/too short - ie: not anything you can do much about. However, one poster - I think it was Jim - then met OM who happens to be shorter than he is....go figure...
Sotto, not only do I prefer showers over baths, but I also apparently use "wild hand gestures" and I say "you know?" as well as at least a dozen other things that have varying degrees of truth. I also caused his mom to get fibromyalgia and my daughter to have OCD. Better watch out, I am pretty awful.
You two are great. I am smiling now. Here's something to shake your head at. I was off today. I was working in the garage next to her car. This is the first time I see her today. The garage door goes up and she puts her work stuff in the trunk. I look at her and say "Good Morning" and look for a response. She will not look at me. Does not say anything, walks straight to the drivers door and gets in. She starts the car, backs out, closes the door with the opener and proceeds down the driveway. No looking, no salutation just getting out of my presence asap.
My wife for whatever reason does not want anything to do with me. That is her choice and I respect it. I will act like a gentleman, treat her and my children well. Her sister and family will spend Thanksgiving with us here in our house and I will laugh, entertain, treat them well and try to make it the best Thanksgiving we have ever had. This will not define me. She will not define me. To tell you the truth I think that me behaving well causes her conflict. If that's the case here's to good behavior.
Please remind me of this tomorrow when I am at the bottom of the sine wave.
I can't understand how some people are so unkind to others. I would not behave like that to strangers, let alone someone I live with and am married to. Yes, my H and I gave eachother the silent treatment often, but common curtesies like saying hello and goodbye or answering when spoken to were still given and received.
It must be so draining and miserable for her to be that way.
I know...not really giving you any advice here.
I admire your strength and your vulnerability. You are human! You love her! Yes, there are times you question your resolve, but then you stand for your marriage anyways. Just know that you give others strength by being who you are.
Diana
Thank you Di, your kindness is appreciated. I keep trying to behave in a way that is selfless and supportive to my wife. I know my wife is struggling even if she has made up her mind and the marriage is over. Even if this is the case I feel strongly that the remaining time we have together should be pleasant. I will not behave like an horses ass . I want to enjoy each moment like it was the last. The difficulty is managing my feelings when she is focused solely on herself.
If it was easy to do the "right" thing, everyone would do it.
Sorry mutatio, that level of silent treatment would be difficult for anyone to deal with. I agree with Azzork though, this has more to do with her than you so keep on the path and be the man you want to be. It may be that she is trying to get you to react in a negative way and you continuing to be pleasant really is causing her conflict. Don't overthink it though, it could be that's she just dealing with something about herself.
Thank you Fogg. I value your read of the situation. I honestly cannot think of a better way to handle this. My son is 16 and I want this home to be as loving as it can be. I want to model the behavior a man should display when a marriage struggles. I want my son to see how a man behaves when the chips are down. I want him to see his father never gave up. In short how to be and what it takes to be a good man. This is my responsibility, this my gift to my son.
Someone once said to me about raising children, "don't worry about what they hear when your talking, worry about what they see when they watch you."
Hi Matatio,
Just letting you know that I am finishing up reading you sitch. I'm still formulating my thoughts, but this is what is on top.
The co-dependence thing is definitely jumping at me. I can't quite put my finger on it yet, but there is something in it that needs to be explored further.
When I read your sitch I get the sense that your are on the edge of something profoundly life-changing and amazing. I am firmly of the belief that when the soul knows and wants to make change and action there is no stopping it. My sense is that potentially whatever is happening in your marriage, is about a contentment or outstanding need in your soul, and that wife's detachment, is the shove you need to connect with your souls work.
I feel that the sooner you come to grips with this being more about YOU, MATATIO and less about wife, the sooner you will have some peace and movement in your sitch. There's a destiny Matatio that your soul is wanting you fulfill. Your wife is providing you sign posts.
Look that is my gut read. I say the above, and you will find this yourself, that there are some sitches that it seems clear, yip this is wife's soul work. But I feel there's something here just for you. V has been edging closer and closer to it with her questions.
There is a way of thinking that I find myself trapped in at times. That what I am thinking and feeling is all that there is, that the resolution of this issue in front of me is all that matters. But really the universe being as it is, this current issue is a stepping stone to a potentially larger more abundant experience. And yet here I am stuck wondering what I can do to get my ex to talk to me. You are thinking too much and too small. My gut tells me, you are asking the wrong questions. A life and souls destiny is bigger. Particularly in this instance with you.
What I have also found over the last 12 months, is there is peace in silence and doing nothing. I have been thousands of miles away from my Mr Ex for 13 months, and I would say that for six of those months maybe more, it was like he was your wife living in the room next door. The silence between us reigned and thundered. For me it was deafening. When I realised I had to suck it up, this is how it was, and I needed to get comfy with it pretty quick. I sat with it and eventually found my peace.
Being in your home with your wife, could be an act of meditation. An act of sitting and seeing and feeling the silence and doing nothing but experiencing peace. Letting the mind wander, the feeling the beginning of it and letting it go and coming back to yourself. This is meditation. Your initial posts ( and mine) reek of being outside of yourself. And I guess this brings me full circle to the co-dependency. Co-dependency is the ultimate form of being outside of one's self.
You dear Matatio are on the verge of greatness and you don't even know it.
These are my feelings and thoughts for what little they are worth.
Much love for now
JellyB XXX
Thank you JellyB. Your insight is greatly appreciated. I read your words last night and they gave me pause. I worked around the house today and kept coming back to your words.
I thought I had put my co-dependency issues behind me but now I think I have not. It is not the issue it was before but it is still an problem of mine. I mistook the feeling for sadness or mild depression. Since you mentioned it I see it as a milder version of the co-dependency feelings I've had in the past. I had some success working through it before and will pay attention to it now. Maybe I never beat it and thought I had. I shall mention it to my IC next week.
I think using the silence as a meditation technique is brilliant. Thank you again.
In regards to "a destiny that your soul is wanting you fulfill". I have a "Plan B" that I'm thinking about. It will take a few more years to assemble.
Thanks for taking the time to read my posts. Your thoughts are on target and I find them useful in the search for mutatio (latin for "change").
Mutatio,
I am mere embryo myself in moving myself through Codependency. If you read my posts in the beginning of my journey on this forum, you will see the desperation for connection, the need to please, the lack of independency and I think therapists call it individuation. My lovely friend Zues made a few but powerful comments that made me really consider what my co-dependency looked like within a relationship. How I view his comments now, was that I became a shadow, not really a partner, because all I reflected to my ex was himself. It wasn't a partnership.
A loving partnership is an exchange between two people, where at times there is an equal participation, but at other times, it provides challenge and stimulation. A exchange of need and assistance, love and support. It can't work if the traffic is only one way.
Mr Ex (my name for my ex partner), our relationship was in a vacuum. I was so obliging and submissive, I was so accommodating, anticipating his every need. He lost respect for me and I was no longer the interesting, passionate and exciting woman he had initially fallen in love with. Note I was accommodating and nice, until I realised that I wasn't getting my needs met. And then I was passive aggressive and resentful while still being nice. I was a fool to think that because I was covering it up with niceness that Mr Ex didn't see it and feel it. There is likely a gender difference in how co-dependency manifests. So what it looked like for me, may not be how it presents in your relationship.
I am no expert in this area, my journey with co-dependency is a small act every day when I feel and see signs of it popping up. And it pops up with others I am not in an intimate relationship with, so there is plenty of people to practice on.
People have posted here that they view wife's behaviour as respectful (I affirm this too) , but there is something in wife's treatment. How and why did she become so disrespectful and disconnected from you? There is something in this I feel.
My feeling is, she doesn't know who your are. I wonder if wife trusts you? Generally codependency teaches our partners not to trust us, because what we do and what we say are often two different things. Who is the Mutatio your wife wants to respect, use to respect, the man she fell in love with. Co-dependency/Addiction makes us a shell or shadow of our most authentic self. Who is Mutatio in his authentic self? Does your wife know an authentic Mutatio?
I sense that your wife is responding to Mutatio she perceives/believes you are. The man who tolerates and is impacted by her disrespectful behaviour. The man who has likely curtailed or made himself small, because he was so scared of losing his wife, so busy proving he was worthy of his wife's presence and love.
When I see you post of other people's threads, I get such a sense of your masculinity, strength, wisdom, intellect and kindness. A man whose boundaries would be respected, a man that does not pander.
I feel that there is a need in you to fully stand in your masculinity when you're in wife's presence. It isn't a matter of stating it, it is matter of you fully experiencing your own male greatness while in her presence. Let her feel your sense of certainty about yourself. When women feel this, we know it and it is extremely powerful.
I hope it is ok to ask some questions. Feel free to ignore it. But I do wonder what your wife said about her feelings about wanting the divorce. Why does she want it? What is unfulfilled for her? Is it her? It is you? Is it both? Is there something else she wants to pursue. You may have said all of this, but I don't recall reading it.
Mutatio, feel free to ignore all of the above, they are mere reflections.
PS: I don't think Plan B is Plan B. My feeling is this is your souls work.
With great respect for Mutatio
Much love JellyBxxx
Hi JellyB, I love your questions. Please keep them comming.
How and why did she become so disrespectful and disconnected from you?
We had a 3 year engagement and 3 years of marriage that were also great. After that it went down hill between kids and a job I hated. I drank to much and was not the father I should have been. I think there's noting left.
I wonder if wife trusts you?
I think not. Not with her heart.
Who is Mutatio in his authentic self?
I like to travel. I like to create things. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I am sensitive but have built up walls for protection. I'm a good guy. I am drawn to mediation and Buddhism but am not interested in religion. I love working in the medium of metal. I love kinetic metal art, metal scupture and want to create it. I love the mountains. I love the desert. I love the high desert. I love the high altitude desert southwest.
Does your wife know an authentic Mutatio?
I think so.
Why does she want it?
She is indifferent to me.
What is unfulfilled for her?
I don't know.
Is it her?
She said to me 2 months ago that I am only her husband, not her partner, not her friend.
It is you?
I think she has grown apart from me. She said we were young and in love with nothing else, now the love is gone and she feels indifferent about me.
Is it both?
I want to make it work, I love her. She is done with me.
Is there something else she wants to pursue.
She wants to work for intellectual stimulation and personally wants be alone to do what she wants to do.
I don't think Plan B is Plan B. My feeling is this is your souls work.
It is the only thing of interest to me. I am doing time at work for my pension and have 2 1/2 years left till my youngest child is off to college. That's how long I thought I would work on my marriage.
I think I am still suffering from co-dependency. This is the chain that shackles me. I cannot hope to become my authentic self while enchained. So liberation is a primary goal. Please ask more JellyB, I think we have some things in common. Be well
I am living the quiet life. I am trying to focus on myself and stop thinking about my wife each day. I am very slowly getting better at it. She has pulled so far from me I feel like a stranger.
I am trying to search out any co-dependency habits I have still have. Looking at my moments of sadness as possible co-dependency issues has made me look at all emotional moments critically. This is okay, the process is put of my evolution.
Hi there Mutatio...I have not forgotten you, I have been rereading your threads to get a clearer picture on things. I would love to know more about your experience of CD habits. I fell into a CD hole yesterday in a work situation. Hit me hard. I would be happy to hear about your experiences in managing CD. Identifying your triggers and pattern.
Much Love
JellyB XXX
I am not making excuses for what I did. I am responsible for my choices.
In the years that my wife lost her feelings for me I was to some extent depressed and felt trapped in my job. Because of that I self medicated with alcohol.
After 2008 I was so scared of losing my wife and feeling guilty about my bad behavior I became co-dependent. I tried to please her any way I could. I do all the cooking, drove the kids every where and household things like that. I remained depressed while becoming co-dependent.
I read Codependent No More a book by Melody Beattie after BD and my mental meltdown. My co-dependent behavior seems to be triggered by my fear of losing my wife and she divorcing me. I am getting better at it since you mentioned it in your post. I realized it when you mentioned it. I am getting better at managing it because there is very little chance of my wife choosing to remain with me. I believe she has given up on me and the marriage.
I will keep trying and hoping because the sun even shines on a dog's ass occasionally.
Mutatio, it sounds to me like you know your shortcomings. (Sounds eerily familiar to myself) knowing is half the battle. (G I Joe cartoon slogan from the 80s) but it is true. Now you know the issues, so you can continue taking steps to rid yourself of them. May or may not save your M, but will definately make you a better person. Keep it up, you are doing great!
Mutatio, if you think you can save your M, get behind the thought and make it so.
If you don't think you can save your M, get behind it and make it so.
Being blunt, you are saying one thing and doing another, in doing so you are dragging yourself through turmoil, which is making you even more sad. Does it make sense to continue this way? For what it's worth I don't think so as you are made of tougher stuff.
Where are you with your goals and your plans, do they need a refresh? Get your head out of your sitch and into making mutation even wiser and who knows what will happen, but it's bound to be for the better.
Thank you dday, I'm a work in progress, at least a piece of work.
Avanti, I don't know if I can save my marriage but I would like to. I am hedging my emotional bet by sitting on the fence. It's hard to know what to think. She will not talk to me and I am not going to pursue her. I guess it's time to fish or cut bait. I am going to try to save my marriage. Thank you Avanti.
I think my goals need to be refreshed. I've evolved to a different perspective.
...I am going to try to save my marriage...
Now you have made this decision, live by it! No more sitting on the fence, it makes your eyes water.
Get those goals entrenched and your plans defined then consult them regularly, not your feelings.
Inspire your W to want to be with you. Go mutatio!
Let's see that refreshed list of goals Mutatio!
We've said it before and we can say it again, we're both in similar boats. But let's also agree to be hell bent on being our best and looking our finest if the boats sink.
I hope that somewhere people get to read what you write with your name attached to it. Perhaps a best seller in the near future...
What are your goals my friend? I'm happy to help you. I'm also so sorry your W cannot see the majesty in you Mutatio.
I too was co dependent, I understand it. It's our worst nightmare come true to have to live through our, well, worst nightmare. I firmly believe that if we can survive this, we can survive anything. It's an opportunity to find all the ways that we hid behind the beauty of our wives and the comfort of their presence.
Take your work in the next few months seriously Mutatio, this is effort of the highest order. We are literally patching the holes that have grown in our spirits, that we ignored due to having W's and M's. Once patched though, we will be stronger than ever, and whole.
If you W doesn't want the strongest, most whole version of Mutatio, then she simply doesn't deserve your time and presence. Her loss.
Be well,
PP
Thank you PigPen, your support means a lot to me. In this situation one can feel so very alone and isolated. It's great to have the support of someone like you.
I will work on new goals this evening and post them.
Pp, you summed it up, and did an awesome job of it. That post is golden. Mutatio, you sound like an awesome guy to start with. You may have work to do, but you seem to have an awesome foundation to build on. Remember, no house can stand on a weak foundation, so it is very important. Keep it up, you will be an even greater mutatio!
Thank you dday for your kindness. I am evolving and am a much better person then I was in earlier versions of myself. I look back and am disappointed in my choices. I am not paralyzed by those choices, just disappointed. My barometer going forward is simple, when I look back at this moment in the future, how will I feel by the choice I am making. I use my scale of measurement, no one else's.
I'm enjoying introspection and evolution, after all life is change.
Good morning, Mutatio, I am so proud of you and the way you are handling your self in this heartbreaking situation. You have been so kind to me and supportive, and I can see that you are handling yourself with dignity and dealing with your wife with love and compassion, while still finding the time and strength to reach out to others and make a difference with your words. You are making good choices that you will look back on with no regret.
Thank you pho, that means a lot to me. Fate has put us in similar situations simultaneously. I feel a special kinship to you because of these similarities. We are on this path for better or worse. In the end we will have a good meaningful life's. I am thankful for your support.
It's good that you're at this place bud. I can already see in your threads that you have come on since you first appeared. Keep going.
mutatio, you offer so many people here support and you see how it is appreciated. Hope you have an amazing day!
Hello, My friend! You've inspired me to look into codependency. As the child of an alcoholic married to an alcoholic, I strongly suspect it is an issue. I'm going to learn all I can in order to continue my personal growth. Thank you.
I continue to be amazed by the patience and love you show your wife. You are a man who clearly understands commitment to a vow. Your wife is so very blessed. I hope she begins to realize that one day soon.
Thanks mah (Mona Ancaire Huddy). Your kind words fill me with pride and joy. I have come to believe that the world is what we make of it. I will continue to support my wife with the kindness and compassion she deserves. If she chooses a life without me at least I'll have my dignity.
I am mulling.
Jellyb has done some very useful work with you. Fantastic insights by all, very impressive.
I agree wth the other posters. Thrilled by you.
V
I am not making excuses for what I did. I am responsible for my choices.
In the years that my wife lost her feelings for me I was to some extent depressed and felt trapped in my job. Because of that I self medicated with alcohol.
After 2008 I was so scared of losing my wife and feeling guilty about my bad behavior I became co-dependent. I tried to please her any way I could. I do all the cooking, drove the kids every where and household things like that. I remained depressed while becoming co-dependent.
I read Codependent No More a book by Melody Beattie after BD and my mental meltdown. My co-dependent behavior seems to be triggered by my fear of losing my wife and she divorcing me. I am getting better at it since you mentioned it in your post. I realized it when you mentioned it. I am getting better at managing it because there is very little chance of my wife choosing to remain with me. I believe she has given up on me and the marriage.
I will keep trying and hoping because the sun even shines on a dog's ass occasionally.
Mutatio,
I been reflecting on some posts between you and V, and something struck me. I read the above and see that you timeline your engagement with CD to 2008. My feeling from reading your posts with V is that they were present back when you decided to work for FIL.
Your posts with V indicate your motivation was to provide financial security for your wife and I read this as you felt it was an important way of demonstrating commitment to your wife and marriage.
My sense Mutatio is that for many years your authentic self has been seeking ways to fully express itself. Your self medication through drinking, provided relief from feelings of resentment for not being truely Mutatio. You are good man Mutatio your sense of duty was strong. There was however a cost. You identify that the cost was your wife and family, this is true, but equally there was a cost to YOU.
Has there ever been a time when Mutatio put himself first?
When was the last time you experienced yourself as a good person, a good father, a good husband without guilt and shame? I use guilt and shame has they are the feelings often attached to codependent behaviours and coping strategies.
I don't know how valuable any of these questions are for you Mutuaio. Feel free to ignore my reflections. I honour the fact that sometimes there is limited value in rumaging around in past behaviours when the locus of control and change is in the NOW.
I guess I raise them as I feel that at times you are still fully immersed in being the good dutiful husband and father. If you could just show wife, how sorry you are, how good you are that it would change everything. Maybe this is true.
I don't tend to agree. Your wife has experienced you as the dutiful husband - he was a drinker and angry, she has experienced you as the guilt ridden, dependent, placatory and anticipatory husband (CD behaviours - please know that I am finger pointing at myself too).
I believe that your lovely wife needs to see you strong, masculine, focussed and self engaged. While wife maybe presenting as disinterested and disengaged, a woman can't help but take notice of man who is in the fullness of his masculinity and purpose. This is detachment.
I have to thank you Mutatio for being vulnerable with me, allowing me to share my thoughts and reflections with you. I am learning so much about myself and my own relationships with my intimate others. Much learning for me.
I would like to say too. I am a very senitive soul and my strength IRL or Online has never been the nuts bolts of goal planning and more pragmatic change processes. You will however always get a kind and thoughtful reflection that I hope honours you, your situation and pays respect to the ideals you hold for your wife, family and marriage.
The above is said with much respect and good intent
JellyBXXX
Thanks for thinking of me V, whenever your ready I'm game.
JellyB, thank you for sharing your thoughts about my experience. I am happy to continue until you've got me figured out.
"Has there ever been a time when Mutatio put himself first?"
I have never put myself first against what the family needed. When the family had a need, I would do it in a way I preferred. But me before the family's needs, no.
"When was the last time you experienced yourself as a good person, a good father, a good husband without guilt and shame?"
The first three years of my marriage, about 23 years ago.
"I guess I raise them as I feel that at times you are still fully immersed in being the good dutiful husband and father. If you could just show wife, how sorry you are, how good you are that it would change everything. Maybe this is true."
Not true, I think it would change nothing.
"Your wife has experienced you as the dutiful husband - he was a drinker and angry, she has experienced you as the guilt ridden, dependent, placatory and anticipatory husband"
I agree.
Your good JellyB, you have me figured out. I will put myself first sometimes but each member of a family should have that experience. The evening classes I take now are for me and I don't miss them.
my new goals
forge a deeper connection with my son
spent time with my daughter
exercise and lose 10 lbs.
finish my lighting upgrades in my garage
take the advanced evening class
keep a PMA
stop co-dependent thoughts and behaviors
Wow, Mutatio! All this self-work going on in your thread is so helpful to read. You are so bravely baring your soul and the feedback and insights you are getting from others is truly instructional to me.
I'm thrilled with your goals, mainly because this time the focus is not on your W. That hasn't been working, so definitely time to do something else. You reflect such an honorable personality. I truly hope for the best for you.
Mutatio,
You pay me such a compliment, and I say thank you! I don't have you figured out, I just recognise myself in your struggles and vulnerabilities. But if you have a sense of being understood in some small way, I'm pleased.
JellyBxxx
I think you grew up in a family that couldn't, or wouldn't, attach great value to your basic needs and wants, and your natural impulse was to suppress and add a desire to please those around you, it started with those ACE markers, I really think so. This isn't abuse but neglect, a very different and indifferent mechanism.
What you wanted didn't matter so you appeased and thereafter I believe that set the pattern with other relationships. With FIL instead of relating as an adult male to adult male, you placed this wonderful man on a pedestal and attempted to subjugated your needs to his. He didn't need it and would have assumed your submission was contentment. Your needs did not get expressed although I suspect that it may have been safe to do it.
You learned to contain anger inside, afraid to express it in case you were excluded from the work and entwined family group. Your role did not fit you, the anger has to emerge somehow and it did so as a passive aggressive response, alcohol. Your own needs went into hiding as you medicated with alcohol.
Your needs never became known, you kept them secret and I took enormous effort. As a result the passive aggressiveness became reinforced as your main way of coping with the world. The anger was once again turned inward as a destructive fonce.
On giving up the alcohol another opportunity to atone and grow was lost. Damage to Rs with unsurpassed anger has to be atoned in one way or another or it erupts. The anger and frustration was never expressed and it's truely a source unexplored.
Healing of those original unmet needs has not occurred yet and the need to appease resolved.
It is your history spattered with guilt arising from suppressed anger. In order to do that passive aggressiveness was needed. As a child it was not expressed, as a young man with FIL it was distracted. Then suppressed with alcohol, following which contained by passive aggression.
You never let your expressions of negative emotions show. I think because of fear of that childhood anger becoming uncontrolled.
I think you have no strong mechanism for anger management and thus you numbed it and behaved passive aggressively. It emerges at the edges, and you feel inauthentic. I think it's a sense you have of yourself that your skin is thick in case the inside strong emotions burst through. The suit of armour stops you from coming out not the body blows from coming in. You deny your responses of anger because you fear exclusion.
Anger will always find a way to emerge, it cannot be eliminated and you fear it. Hence you become too "nice" to redirect it. In other ways, its corollary is to dampen love. At one stage I challenged you because you referred to your children as amorphous as an extension of W, on a continuum. Indistinguishable. It's different now and you see each as individuals, which pleases me enormously, but that passive aggressiveness acts as a damper on your feelings and . It is as if you feel once felt intensively the anger will leak. You would rather live without authenticity than address the needs left from childhood. Your W can never meet those needs and theating childhood deficit repaired only by you. Your parents were flawed, and you can let that go and it's ok. The anger of unmet need wI'll be released.
Periodically, you must find a way of alleviating this negative emotional build-up without causing serious damage to any relationship that you perceive as precarious. As a result without such mechanisms you decieve yourself and act out passively aggressively, even acting against your own best interest. And sometimes WW does this for you as a surrogate, WW passive aggressiveness arises because her princess needs are not being met. Stonewalling, sulking and avoiding in order to control, you feel comfortable with it as you know it in yourself. It was you cross and once again instead of anger, you feel pain and hurt. It's easier and familiar, an old pattern from childhood.
You both found ways to sabotage, undermine, deceive, betray by disappointing as you grew up, however, in two families that couldn't, or wouldn't for very different reasons, attach much value to your basic needs and wants, your impulse to become yourself shelved and that need rationalised. You were unclear who you were and it was easy to shelve or medicate in a featherbed rut.
You fooled yourself into thinking expediency was what you wanted, sacrificing growth for that expediency? There was hidden rebellion.
You circumvent the growth you need by not addressing the childhood needs and learning to use your anger. Criticism is avoided and evaded as well as self evaluation.
Addressing the childhood need and learning to be assertive rather than passive aggressive would serve you well. Your needs were not met, and you deflected anger into self subjugation. That is why you fear that anger. Anger is powerful and it needs addressing.
If you think my evaluation has merit, then we can look at that FOO to release the anger, safely and to direct it.
We need to know exactly which childhood needs remain unmet, and to see if a new life story can emerge. The pattern was set long ago and has been repeating in each Act in a different way. It can be addressed, and usefully so to move on. This is because suppressing one major emotion acts to dampen the otherst. It's like having a massage with your winter coat on. The whole senses dampen. It will be unfamiliar Mutatio. It means leaving facade and becoming truly authentic. That means acknowledging umnet long ago needs.
These are my thoughts.
V
Hi Vanilla, thank you for taking the time to help me on my journey.
ACE markers? I not sure what this means.
"If you think my evaluation has merit, then we can look at that FOO to release the anger, safely and to direct it."
I do think it has merit. I would like to go spelunking in my mind with you.
Thanks again, I want to reread your post after I cook dinner. When ever your ready just throw it on the wall.
You can take the Ace test by googling "Ace quiz"...Vanilla usually recommends the one by aces too high. Once you find them online, you'll figure out what she means. One quiz is based on your childhood, the other on your resiliency.
V, I had been skirting around the edges for days for Mutatio. You're such a blessing to all of us here.
JellyB, Vanilla, I am very grateful to have you two beautiful souls in my life.
V, I had been skirting around the edges for days for Mutatio. You're such a blessing to all of us here.
My lovely JellyB
No skirting, really wonderful insightful thinking.
V
ACES
Adverse childhood experiences. I believe everyone should know where they stand. The original questions were 100 but have been reduced.
I love the version with resilience. There is one minor glitch, it's hard as an adult to answer as if one were still a child as we grow we build resilience.
//acestoohigh.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/coleva.png
Add https
It's a great guide.
V
Thanks V, I will check it out this weekend.
Hello mutatio,
So how are we doing with these goals today?
my new goals
forge a deeper connection with my son
spent time with my daughter
exercise and lose 10 lbs.
finish my lighting upgrades in my garage
take the advanced evening class
keep a PMA
stop co-dependent thoughts and behaviors
Thank you Mona for thinking of me. It feels good to have someone wonder how I'm doing. I have not posted in a couple of days because I have been reflecting on my situation.
I have noticed a new feeling within me and I am dismayed by it. For example my wife came home early tonight and she eat dinner with my daughter, my son and myself. My wife talked with my daughter and would not look at me. That is not anything new. In the past I would wait to speak but try to. Today, I sat there looking at her and had no desire to talk to her. I sat there and listened, looking at her and thinking her words have lost their luster. I still love my wife but as I type this I wonder why. She has withdrawn and made herself a stranger to me.
This must be a level of detachment. I now see how hard it is to remain upbeat and behave well when facing adversity. I will not give up but there are some moments in which the despondency is suffocating. What is not clear any more is why I'm doing it. Is it for love, a sense of duty, habit, fear or all of the above. I have entered a unclear portion of my path. I will keep moving forward and hope the light of truth shines down on me.
It is important to know why you are still standing. You have answered that several times in your thread but as you rightly pointed out you are now at a different point of your path.
Even without knowing exactly if you believe it is the right thing to do, maybe that is enough.
Good luck with your thinking.
Hi roiste, thanks for responding. I was down last night because of my dinner realization. It could be just that moment or the beginning of a different perspective. Time will reveal the answer.
I do agree with this statement."Even without knowing exactly if you believe it is the right thing to do, maybe that is enough." This my path.
The amount of courage necessary to see this through is daunting. There is not much else to say
Mutatio, I believe it's all part of the process. At first we fight like hell to keep the M alive, to keep the R with our wives alive, to keep that old connection strong.
Over time though I believe we return to our base needs - to be respected, to be loved in return, to have the energy we put out mirrored back to us in some way. As time goes on and your W stays withdrawn, you are giving and getting nothing back. How can any person be expected to hold that space forever? It's an unbalanced exchange.
I spoke with my cousin's wife last night, she is Italian and therefor completely dismayed at my sitch! She said something very poignant to me though. She told me of ALL of the struggles that she and my cousin have gone through - being poor together, losing jobs, infertility, three miscarriages, the death of my uncle, moving, and now raising two kids together.
She said that through it all they've found reasons to fight to be with each other, reasons to look beyond the current struggle and continue on as a couple. And that until I find a woman who is willing to do that, there's no reason to be in another relationship.
I don't know why our W's have chosen the path they have. No one does. Sure we contributed, sure we made mistakes. As did my cousin. As did his wife. Someone out there will fight to be with us. Someone out there will find reasons to stay as opposed to reasons to leave. We deserve to have someone on this board fighting for us in the ways that we are here fighting for our M's. All of us here do.
Letting faith handle this situation while you heal, grow, and truly develop into the highest expression of Mutatio will take courage beyond what you may have right now. Welcome that challenge because it's going to force you to become more than you are, you are already an extraordinary man simply by your DB'ing and desire to fight for your M against all odds.
Now imagine the man you are going to become.
Stay courageous,
PP
Remember your feelings pass. Your wife is an imperfect human, and even if she were to throw her arms around you and praise you for your strength and promise to never let you go, she would still be an imperfect human.
We, on this forum, tend to forget how flawed our S was before our nightmares began. We remember the honeymoon phase. And that is good, because that is what keeps us strong and fighting.
I just want to tell you it is completely normal to wonder why you are fighting for her. She is not perfect. It is completely normal to feel like you just now realized that she may not be who you want for the rest of your life.
Just like it will be completely normal for you to wake up tomorrow and see through rose colored glasses how much you love her and of course you will fight for her. How could you ever believe otherwise?
Your journey will be up and down, back and forth. When you are feeling down, act as-if, and as time passes you will be back up again.
Love is a decision. You must decide it every day. It is not a once and done thing. When you wake up each day, you have to decide, will you love your W today or not. Feelings come and go.
I want to give you a positive, but I do not want you to feel like I think you have it any easier. I just want to point out that your W is there. Many people on the boards would die to have dinner with their WAS.
No, I do not believe this makes it easier for you at all. There are many times reading your sitch when I thought it would be so much easier for you if you two were separated. But you are not. So, if possible, look to that positive.
I do have to say, that when you told me that you were watching your W and not talking, I kinda cringed. If she could feel you watching her you may be making your journey last longer than it needs to.
I used to watch my H with big, sad puppy-dog eyes. I am sure you are not going that far, but if they think you are adding pressure, they will pull further away.
Try and get to a point where you have zero expectations in your eyes. Dont expect your wife to be good or bad. Have zero expectations and she cant disappoint you.
Just keep trucking forward! You are a rock, seriously.
Thank you PigPen for your support. I am still a work in progress.
Thank you Mona for your insight. I love that we are in the same house but because we are, there are different stresses.
I have a meeting in 5 minutes so I can't write more.Thank you both very much.
I will not give up but there are some moments in which the despondency is suffocating.
So what are you doing to fill this void in your life?
Just want to add my support and friendship, Mutatio. I am learning from you and from all the wonderful advice you are getting. Stay strong.
Sadly, I think it is these feelings of detachment that are our best chance of losing our spouses, and also our best chances of getting them back. You know the whole concept of the left behind spouse becoming the walk away? I think that happens a lot. Not to say you would do that, but at some point, you don't know what is in your future.
Stay strong. Is there something you can do for fun today, something just for you? Maybe for S too, that would count I think.
Hey Mutatio,
I am in the same sit as you, just like you have said on my thread. I have been feeling the same as you, questioning why I am fighting for this W that does not want me. May we both get through this feeling, to the other side.
Thank you Vise, I appreciate your support. We are sharing a similar experiences with our wifes.
Vanilla thank you for the hug. I have not hugged a woman in a very long time.
Good question Azzork-"So what are you doing to fill this void in your life?" The void must have always be there. I didn't even realize that until your question gave me pause. I don't notice because with work, school and GAL activities I am thoroughly distracted. It is in those quiet reflective moments that I sense the loss of hope and courage. I am now aware of it now and understand what is happening. I will experience the emotions, acknowledge the feeling and then let go of it. It works with anger so it should work in this application.
pho-""You know the whole concept of the left behind spouse becoming the walk away? I am waiting for this moment. I just hope it comes.
I miss being married, sharing a life with someone, holding hands, getting a hug, waking up together and all the little things that one shares on a daily basis.
Mutatio,
I absolutely guarantee it won't be long before you get those hugs and it won't the motherly V type hugs either!
How are we doing on the letter?
More, more, more,
Big hugs
V
Thank you for the kindness Vanilla. Your cyber hugs do give me comfort. I have been working the last 2 weeks on a big presentation for tomorrow so please forgive me for asking, what letter? I sure I wanted to write a letter but what it was escapes me. I have found that being so stressed emotional has affected my memory.
Sweetheart give yourself space and time to take care of you. I would love to send your favourite screen icon to give you a hug. Who is that by the way?
When you are rested and easier then it we can make space and time to chat about L.
Rest easy, it's ok.
I am ok and I hope we are good?
V
We are good V, I'm always happy to see you've posted on my thread. We are good.
Hi mutatio,
This thought helps me when I think there is no way I will ever figure out how to pull away from H.
Before H I was in love. 7 years in love with my high school sweet heart.
Now he is just someone I used to know.
I am not saying ditch the W. I am just saying if you choose, you will be able to add W to the category of someone you used to know. You are in complete control over that.
Hi Mona, thanks for the suggestion. I don't know what to think about my wife and marriage. If I follow your suggestion I will combine it with moving away. But I'm not there yet. I don't know where I am now but I am not there yet.
One of the things I will remember from this time in my life is the uncertainty of it all.
I just read this and it struck a chord with me. I will have to do some self reflection on love and attachment. I copied and pasted it here for you if are struggling with attachment. I copied this from A View On Buddhism.
- "Love with attachment consists of waves of emotion, usually creating invisible iron chains." Ordinary love tends to create bonds that may turn very unpleasant.
- Ordinary love is based on selfishness: attraction to others because they help us.
- Ordinary love is often based on opinions like beauty and status, which may be quite irrelevant or even obstacles for being able to live happily together with the person.
- Exaggeration and projection are the main reasons that ordinary love leads to disappointments.
- "Being in love" may be a very exciting emotional condition, but is it really happiness, or is it often mixed with a fair amount of suffering?
- Attachment gives us the feeling of: How can this relationship fulfil MY needs? Real love would ask: What can I do for the OTHER?
- Attachment based on selfishness: if you are good to me, I am good to you. Altruistic love is based on equanimity: one realises that others are like me and want happiness. It is wishing others to be happy just because they exist.
- Attachment leads to possessiveness: MY husband, MY wife, MY friend, MY family. Did you ever realise that we cannot own people, unless you believe in slavery? Possessiveness leads to FEAR of losing, fake affection out of fear, overprotection, craving, jealousy or even the feeling: I can't live without her/him/my car/my cat/chocolate/pizzas/my job/my jewellery/my music....
- Is the perfection we think to see in the loved one really there, or do we simply close our eyes for the negative qualities?
- Is the perfection we are looking for achievable? An old Sufi tale as illustration:
"One afternoon, Nasruddin and his friend were sitting in a cafe, drinking tea and talking about life and love. His friend asked: 'How come you never married?'
'Well,' said Nasruddin, 'to tell you the truth, I spend my youth looking for the perfect woman. In Cairo I met a beautiful and intelligent woman, but she was unkind. Then in Baghdad, I met a woman who was a wonderful and generous soul, but we had no common interests. One woman after another would seem just right, but there would always be something missing. Then one day, I met her; beautiful, intelligent, generous and kind. We had very much in common. In fact, she was perfect!'
'So, what happened?' asked Nasruddin's friend, 'Why didn't you marry her?'
Nasruddin sipped his tea reflectively. 'Well,' he replied, 'it's really the sad story of my life.... It seemed that she was looking for the perfect man...' "
To summarise: our own projections, selfish expectations and exaggerations are the foundations of attachment and the unavoidable disappointment.
We want to get love, rather than give love.
We seek understanding, rather than trying to understand.
We seek self-confidence, rather than respecting others.
We seek praise and encouragement, rather than giving praise and encouragement .
We don't like criticism, but like to criticise others.
I will strive for altruistic love. I will leave you with this quote, food for thought.
"Grasping at things can only yield one of two results:
Either the thing you are grasping at disappears, or you yourself disappear.
It is only a matter of which occurs first."
Goenka
Mutatio,
All of these quotes speak to me. I still wonder if the love I shared with my H was true. I guess only time will tell.
The fear I felt at losing my job, my health, my house and my H, at times has been crippling. Over the last 8 months I have slowly started to accept that these things don't define me. I have let go so many things that I realized I really didn't need, but for years thought I couldn't live without. What I did learn is that I can't live without my children, my close family, my best friend and my animals. They will always be a constant in my life. I still have an unhealthy attachment to my H. I know I can live without him. I have for the past 8 months and most of my adult life, but I really don't want to. I just have to figure out how to un-choose him now and let him go.
One thing I keep thinking about when reading your posts and other men on here....You guys are delving deep into yourselves. You are trying to figure out your thoughts, feelings, uncertainties, triggers. You are trying to become better men, not just for the women in your lives, but your children, other relationships and most important for yourselves. That is so admirable!
Mutatio- I grasped and I held and lost both H and myself I think I lost myself first while trying so hard to hold onto H. I don't even know who I am anymore.
I copied your post to my notes and plan on giving it some real reflection
Thanks for posting it
I agree Di-mond. Wonder if our Hs would how things might be different.
Hi Mutatio
I have responded to your questions on my Threa. Hope it proves to an interesting read.
JellyBXXX
Nice reflective post to ponder!
I too will/do strive for altruistic love. Thank you for posting this!
Mutatio that is a beautiful and very true post. Thank you for it. I have not printed many out but that one will be.
Hello fine people of DB world. Thank you Di-mond, Jpeg, Mona, epO215, 2pointO for your kind words. When I found those words, I thought some of you might like them also, so I copied and pasted them here. I'm glad I did.
Not much is happening here. Although I feel disappointed with my wife's behavior I accept it and give her the space she wants. This zen story sums up how I deal with my emotions of my circumstance.
Traveler: "What kind of weather are we going to have today?"
Shepherd: "The kind of weather I like."
Traveler: "How do you know it will be the kind of weather you like?"
Shepherd: "Having found out, sir, that I cannot always get what I like, I have learned to always like what I
get. So I am quite sure we will have the kind of weather I like."
This is the marital relationship she desires at this time. I support her and hope she finds peace.
Mutatio, you are an awesome man. You seem to be doing well, keep it up! I love the stories that you post here also.
I wish you the best!
Edit - Please start a new thread