Dealing with WW, Kids, and Divorce 2

Yet another thread...

I will provide a link to the last on shortly.

Last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...800#Post2614800

If you have been keeping up with my thread you will know that WW and I have not communicated directly in 3 months. Well, I started going back through the DR book from the beginning. I decided to write down my small goals.

One of them was that WW would try and communicate with me directly. I kid you not, 45 minutes later I picked up the kids and my daughter gave me a hand written note from WW. Of course, it was nothing special. It was only one sentence dealing with the kids.

I'm not really excited about it but I thought it was funny that I had just put that goal in place and it was accomplished so soon after. Michelle does tell us to make these goals otherwise we will not know if we are seeing improvement. If I had not made this small goal I would not have even taken notice of the small change in our R dynamic.

This weekend was pretty good overall. I had a great time with my children. However, D7 did talk to me about some things that kind of hurt. She asked me who I loved more, my mom or dad? I told her that when I was younger that I probably felt closer to my mom. Then I asked if she was trying to tell me that she loved her mom more than me. She said yes. Then she said, mommy carried me in her tummy and nursed me as a baby. Plus she is a girl like I am.

I just told her that it was okay to feel that way and that it was natural. I told her that it did not affect how I felt about her. I told her that I will always love and protect her no matter what.

D5 on the other hand keeps telling me that she does not want to go home. She wants to spend one night with mommy and then one night with daddy. She said I am more fun. I feel sorry for her. WW and D7 have a special connection and always have. I am sure D5 feels left out of this and longs for that special connection. I just tell her that I am happy that she likes spending time with me and that I like to be with her as well.

One other thing that D7 did was tell me that she missed mommy. She said that she wanted to go home. I told her that she would go home the next day. She started to cry a little bit and told me "you don't know what it is like to have divorced parents." I just said that she was right and that I loved her. I told her that her time with me was special and that mommy would see her tomorrow. I just held her in my lap and we talked for a little while. She seemed to get over it pretty quick.

Whyus...the pain the children go through makes me seriously doubt the overall level of sanity in our world today! So very many people buying into the Divorce Trap. We screwed up as a society at some point to make this awful thing so very easy. I hate Divorce!

I'm so proud of you for digging in to DR again. I've made up my mind to keep reading pages daily. Even if my M fails, the book has done great things for me as a person...this forum even more so. Keep up the great work!

Thank Ancaire,

What is more perplexing to me is that my WW has always been the over the top mom. She was worried about their self-esteem, moral, and psychological needs in general. Now, she believes those things will be better served by this divorce because she will be able to be a more capable mother without being married to such a terrible H.

Sounds a lot like justification...

The Walkways always have some argument ready to prove they are right. Not having much sympathy for that entire group.

I thought of something last night and wonder if anyone has an answer. Once the A ends, is that the time when a change in the R will occur? What I am asking is, is that when I should really expect WW to start looking at the reality of the situation? Will this cause the fog to at least temporarily lift? Or is the A more a symptom of the fog?

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

I thought of something last night and wonder if anyone has an answer. Once the A ends, is that the time when a change in the R will occur? What I am asking is, is that when I should really expect WW to start looking at the reality of the situation? Will this cause the fog to at least temporarily lift? Or is the A more a symptom of the fog?

I dont think anyone can tell you whether the A is a symptom of a "fog", or the cause of it. In my practice I have seen it both ways. I have seen people have affairs that were clearly driven by personal or marital issues. I have also seen plenty of people getting divorced because one of them basically slipped into an affair even with no complaints about their marriage or spouse. I would say that in the large majority of the cases I have seen where a W is leaving for an OM, it is obvious to everyone but the WW that she is downgrading her and her children's lives in virtually all areas. In many cases like this the WW will wake up at the end when she is actually living her new reality - typically that will spur them to either try to reconcile or decide to go on the attack.

However, I will say two things that I think are truisms from my observations, bearing in mind this is a sample where legal proceedings have started. 1, I have never, ever seen a WW stop an affair out of her own free will until she was pressured to by her family, job, kids or husband. 2, I have never, ever seen a WW make any attempt to reconcile while she was still having an affair.

Fade,

Thank you very much for that response. All of the things you mention are very interesting. Legal proceeding have already started for me so your experience seems relevant. I don't think her family is aware of the extent of the A. They think it is only an EA and now it is even less, they are only really good friends. WW has done a good job of keeping them away from reality. Chances are they will not be the catalyst. I obviously am not the catalyst. Two of my kids are very young so I do not think they will be the ones to get her to stop. My older one, S19, has already said something to her but it did not seem to phase her.

The only way I see the A ending is if the OM calls it off or she finds someone else that is not long distance and starts a new A.

I met with both children's teachers today and the school counselor. D5 is doing great. The teacher said that whatever we are doing is working and not to change anything.

Both of of the kids were above average in their academics. D7 however drew some concerns. There were three people in the meeting, the principle, school counselor and the teacher. They said that D7 was visibly depressed and that they were concerned. I chocked up a little when this was discussed. Of course, they have no idea what is truly going on. We discussed that they need to do a better job of informing me of what is going on at the school--especially if D7 is leaving because she is crying and upset. They stressed that we should be working together to let D7 know it is OK to be happy. Many times kids think it is not OK to be happy during this transition.

Once the meeting was over I spoke to the counselor for about an hour. I gave her the run down of what was happening. She was shocked that I did not have a better custody agreement in place. She suggested (surprise surprise) that I consider getting more aggressive L. She said that she has seen the father get full custody when the WW has done much less than what mine is doing.

She also felt that D7 should know the real reason we are getting divorced. She said that it would put the pressure on WW. She said right now she is getting the best of both worlds. She is not being held accountable for her actions. She also said that from her experience it is best not to lie to the children when they are able to comprehend what it going on. She said she felt D7 was more than capable of understanding.

She then went on to say that I should consult my IC, who she knows, and most importantly my L before doing such a thing.

I left the meeting feeling good that my children are doing well academically. I felt good that the counselor seems to agree that WW is out of line.

Lastly, for the second time in a row WW has asked me to switch days with her. The first time I reluctantly agreed. This was a 180 for me. The next day I got the hand written note. This time I really do not want to agree. It would be a 180 if I did switch. However, I also feel like I am being a push over and WW is just taking advantage.

I am putting in all the work. She has done everything in her power to make my relationship with the children disappear. Now she wants me to work with her.--so frustrating. I do not know what to do. I do not know if she is just using my desperation to get her back as a way of getting the children more.--who knows.

I recommend hugs, lots and lots and lots and lots of hugs.

Just sitting and being, even dads need big hugs you know.

My dad at 94 asks me for hugs, he will stand with his arm on my back humming a tune. That's how I know he is happy. He also holds my hand in his pocket. It has been like that since I was a kid.

You can have the Ds separately and do different dad and daughter stuff. D7 may enjoy doing things with dad, what would she like?

Cooking, go walking, rough and tumble, swimming, glue, servicing cars, painting walls?

D5 will revel in stuff with dad, I can see that already, a great bond.

Try dancing and silliness, kids love all that, especially adults letting kids play.

V

Yep,

My girls know they are going to get lots of hugs from daddy. I do need to work on being more silly. Sometimes it is tough trying to balance being silly with being the dad. They tend to get a little out of control. Guess I need to learn to let go a little more and live life.

Absolutely! My D' s adore their dad (present circumstances haven't changed that)...he was an absolute goofball with them, and they loved every minute. The things I have seen that man do in order to make his kids laugh...

My D' s are both closing in on 30...H still rates as the first person they would call in an emergency. The bond they have is something I really cherish.

Daughters need their dads more than anyone knows.

Yesterday and today I have been getting this feeling that I just need to try and move the divorce along. For one, right now I am unhappy with the custody agreement. I don't see us getting a change in the temporary custody. I am eager to go ahead and get the permanent custody agreement in place.

Second, I am currently paying all of the consumer debt. Once the divorce is final I do not believe this will be the case.

Third, I do not believe WW is going to change her mind about the divorce. I also do not think she is eager to move fast on it. As it stands, I think she still feels like she has me waiting for her to come back. I really do not see any point in waiting around in hopes that she will. I really do not think she will ever get the reality of this situation until the D is final. Aside from that, every day that goes by I am not sure how I could even take WW back.

Fourth, the way it stands now, we do not even communicate directly with each other. I am guessing the final agreement would not include a ridiculous restraining order that does not allow us to communicate.

I just do not know if these are good enough reason to get the ball rolling on this divorce. Should I just be patient, keep DBing and see what happens. I intend to still use the DB concepts after the D as well.

You my friend are getting absolutely shafted in this divorce. My blood pressure goes up reading this thread. You need to understand that you have gotten into to a very bad situation. You are approaching everything with shocking passivity, and letting your ex dictate your life and your relationship with your kids. You have NO choice but to move proceedings forward because the longer you stay in this position, the harder it is to move from it. 90% of the time, final orders do nothing but keep the status quo. Right now the status quo is you being part time dad and full time payer.

So here is my advice: DO EVERYTHING THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR TOLD YOU TO DO.

Fire your lawyer. Find a tougher one by the end of next week. You need to be on the offensive from here out. And you need to drive this - don't think just because you hired a lawyer that you are done. That's the beginning. You need to prod them to keep on your case. Trust me, they are hearing from some clients 10 times a day. If they don't hear from you, they forget you.

Tell the in-laws the truth, with evidence to back it up - 'their daughter is having an affair', 'its been going on for this long', 'she made up the RO so she can get away with it', 'they are unwittingly watching the kids while she has her affair', 'she wont let you have fair time with the kids', 'you love your family and want fair time with the kids'.

Take possession of your daughters whenever you know that their mom is not watching them. No one is stopping you but yourself.

Tell your daughters the truth in an age appropriate way - 'mommy left because she has a boyfriend', 'married people shouldn't have boyfriends or girlfriends', 'I want mommy to come home'. She will be much better off if at least one parent is not lying to her about the circumstances of her entire life.

Document every single instance of parental interference by your wife, every time they are late, you don't get your time, they don't show up for sports. And every time it comes up, have your lawyer or an intermediary email a message to your wife, cc'ing her lawyer and her parents, expressing your wishes to have time with your daughters.

I know at some level you want everything to go back to the way it was and for your WW to come back. But you are handing her her perfect divorce (she gets the kids, the OM, and your money. She has no guilt because she doesn't have to deal with you, and she has no shame because she can blame everything on you and no one is the wiser). So why exactly would she want to come back from that?

Being strong, protecting yourself and your relationship with your kids. Knowing that your financial security is their financial security. That will put yourself in the best position possible for divorce or reconciliation. If you are divorced, you can rebuild a life on a strong foundation with financial security and time with your daughters. And who knows, when you put yourself in the strongest position, then you may became the best option.

^^^^^ This!!! ^^^^^

Dead on.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

Third, I do not believe WW is going to change her mind about the divorce. I also do not think she is eager to move fast on it. As it stands, I think she still feels like she has me waiting for her to come back. I really do not see any point in waiting around in hopes that she will. I really do not think she will ever get the reality of this situation until the D is final. Aside from that, every day that goes by I am not sure how I could even take WW back.

WhyUs- I'm just going to restate what others have already stated here - but I think this is where you are getting stuck. You're wondering way, way, way too much about what she is thinking, what she might do, what might make her reconsider etc. And you are gambling your future with your kids .....proceed with the assumption that the divorce will happen and frankly, your "opponent" in this has already shown a propensity to not be fair or reasonable.

Please take a principled stand for what is right for you and your children. There is nothing mean, wrong or unfair about doing so. If they have an engaged and loving father - they need him in their lives. Period.

Well you guys are certainly getting me fired up. I called a different lawyer a few minutes ago that was recommended by a friend. This guys is supposed to be a "bulldog" as they say. I left him a message to call me back. I plan to fill him in on the situation and see if he thinks he can help me.

I also put in a call to my lawyer today. He is in court so he will have to call me back as well. I am going to explain to him how I feel things are going and ask him if he can get me what I want and tell me exactly how he is going to do it.

You guys are right, I have been passive. Honestly, I have been so keen on saving this M that I am jeopardizing not only the M, but my future and my children's future as well. Thank you for providing the feedback. It is something that I need to hear.

I will keep you posted on how things go.

Quote:

So here is my advice: DO EVERYTHING THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR TOLD YOU TO DO.

Only problem with this is that during the hearing the judge stressed not talking to the kids about the divorce for any reason. He was very adamant about it. He then stressed this in the custody order as well. I can't and will not violate that order. So telling D7 about the reason for the D is out of the question for now.

Letting the in-laws in on her behavior is not out of the question. However, right now she does not know that I know about it turning into an PA. If I let her in on my knowledge will it allow her time to prepare for some lame excuse. Shouldn't it brought up in front of the judge and catch WW and her attorney off guard. Thoughts?

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

Shouldn't it brought up in front of the judge and catch WW and her attorney off guard. Thoughts?

Depends. What do you hope to gain by doing that? In my state, "marital misconduct" affects nothing. You're usually better off using the information as leverage for it NOT to come out in court.

The attorney I spoke to said that he did not think it was a good idea to go in front of the judge regarding the custody order. He said they are rarely very changed and the court will likely be irritated. He did suggest that my attorney formally request the temporary order be changed to give me first right of refusal when WW is out of town. If they deny the request we will have it in writing. I spoke to my attorney and he as agreed to do this.

And guess what, WW is out of town again this weekend and the children are with the grandparents. I had no idea. I asked my attorney if I could go get them. He said no, that even though they do not have custody rights, they were left in the care of the grandparents by the mother who does have custody rights.

Drew,

In my state adultery affects alimony. My attorney feels it will be best to hold the PA close to our vest and use it as negotiation leverage. If we go to trial it will be exposed, something she does not want.

Why

There are things to keep close to your chest, but if WW is in PA then the court needs to know. It a fault state.

New L and more activity. Including evidence.

You have the knowledge and the high IQ, there are also Ds in this that are vulnerable.

Time for action.

V

I spoke to another L this weekend about the sitch and I was also able to speak to my L. The other L said that the same thing regarding custody. He said that he would not go in front of the judge regarding the temp order. However, he did say that he would try to have he order amended to give me first right of refusal when WW is out of town.

My L has agreed to do this.

I have been reading "Love Must Be Tough" this weekend. I am about halfway through the book. The more I read the more I think I need to expose to everyone that the A has turned physical. WW needs to face the consequences of her decisions.

I also did some other reading and have come to the conclusion that I am still in denial. I have to accept that this divorce is going to happen. I think it is the only way that I can get mentally healthy and stop obsessing over how to fix this. I have to take the necessary steps to accept the situation. I am not sure how I do it.

You might want to read up on the Stocksdale Paradox. The short version is that you can remain optimistic about the final outcome, however you have to be realistic and deal with the reality of the situation today.

Okay. I will give that a look.

Drew, I love this and it is so true.

�You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end � which you can never afford to lose � with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.�

I really dont like the advice you are getting. I would search specifically for a father's rights attorney and get a third opinion. Dont start off telling them what your attorney said. They will prioritize their professional relationship with other attorneys and will just echo what you have been told rather than stir things up.

At a minimum go for RFR. BUt even if you dont have written RFR, I have never seen a situation where the courts or police are going to prevent a father from watching his kids when they are in the care of a non custodian.

ALso, keeping her affair a secret as some sort of court house surprise is idiotic and will most likely backfire on you. Talk about a way to tick off a judge and deflect from the real issues - custody and money. You dont want to spend court time trying to stir up dramatics proving an affair. You need to spend your time and effort in court getting a better custody agreement. The affair needs to be accepted common knowledge before the next proceedings. "Everyone knows about it, here is the proof, no room for debate, no alimony. Done. Now lets talk about the kids and the mortgage".

So, you need to make her affair common knowledge immediately. Starting with your inlaws, because they are the ones caring for your children while she conducts her affair. I don't know what kind of relationship you have with them, but be prepared that they have surely heard all kinds of horror stories about you by now. They may even know that your WW has a "new boyfriend".

Bring simple, compelling, court-allowable evidence that this is an affair and precipitated this entire situation. And then keep you message on point - the marriage is over, you accept the divorce, she is free to go, but you need fair time with your kids and cant keep paying all of the joint expenses alone. You feel that you are being forced out of your children's lives. This is not good for you or the kids. The best thing is for them to have a strong relationship with both parents and joint custody is the way to do that. Tell them you want to watch your kids this weekend while your WW is away with her affair partner.

You wont get their support. You dont need it. But your WW does. And she cant continue with primary custody, zero financial responsibility and keep her affair without their help.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end  which you can never afford to lose  with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

Just don't use this as an excuse not to take action.

Did your lawyer send you a copy of the RFR for you to approve and be submitted? The longer you allow the status quo, the more likely it will be to become permanent.

And my opinion? Your lawyer doesn't want to go back to change the temporary order because he agreed to it in the first place. As bad as you're getting it, I would document it all and go back in.

Fade/Drew,

You both make valid points. I meet with my L tomorrow. When I spoke to him about amending the custody order he said he wants to get the financial order signed first. It has been going back and forth for a month now. It should be signed this week.

I am with you on exposing the affair. I will talk to the L about this again. My only other thought on this is that it will be perceived as pursuing. On the other hand I will be standing up for myself- gaining respect.

I'm not sure how the inlaws will react to the A turning physical. I'm sure WW has lied to them. I just need to figure out the best way to discuss it with them. Not sure if I should call, email, or meet in person.

The reason you need to expose the affair to your in-laws is not that you are pursuing your WW, its because you are pursuing fair time with your kids. Their support of your WW is facilitating not only her affair, but her unfairly advantageous position in regards to custody and financials. Without their support (place to live, money, babysitting etc) she is in an untenable situation, right?

As for how to do this, I think this is something that should be done in person if possible. Ideally this weekend when they are watching the kids while your WW is with OM. Otherwise I would suggest a neutral location where your WW wont be there.

And dont make the affair the focus of the conversation, you want to steer the conversation to the loss of your family, the loss of your relationship with your kids. The fact that she is out of state to have sex with OM while you cant see your kids is the hard hitting point. But in this conversation, and in reality, you need to accept that there is nothing you can do on your own to restore your marriage, but there are things you can do to restore your rights as a father.

Why

Exposing the A is strategic, not persuing.

If it were me then I would likely want to prewarn the inlaws that the truth is coming if you need to use it in court. Mainly because it's a fault state. I like Fades view on meeting in person too.

I think I would approach the member of the family you are closest to and have a confidential discussion. " I have something I need to discuss with you and I would like you to hear this from me, rather than anyone else." Then disclose and ask, how should I best handle this with our family? I think this is better than a big announcement, you are reluctantly breaking your silence, sad the R went this way, concerned for your kids.

Be prepared to answer some questions, but refer back to WW, as in please ask WW about that. Also WW may backlash and they may see that.

V

Okay,

I am supposed to talk to my L today. I will bring this up to him. I am going to ask him to explain his logic in not exposing the A right now. I have a feeling he is going to say that he wants more evidence. He wants her to go visit the OM again so that we can get pictures.

V, just for clarity. My state is a no fault state. However, adultery does affect alimony. Either way, your recommendation does not change.

This morning I was thinking about how dumb I have been regarding WW. I have been wanting her to change her mind. I started thinking about the blatant lies she told in our fist hearing. If she were to ever come back she would have so much apologizing to do. She has told so many lies to me, her friends, her family, and the court that I do not think she would be able to bear the burden of asking for forgiveness from me and everyone she has lied to.

She has already endured the embarrassment of ruining her reputation and family. Owning up to her lies would make her feel as though she was doing more damage.

I think you're focused on the wrong things, the affair and the financials. You should be focused first on your future involvement in your children's lives. Again, maybe it's different in your state, but in mine you don't even start financials (disclosure) until you have a full PERMANENT Parenting Agreement in place.

Ask your lawyer this: What is being done to make the permanent custody order different from the temporary one? You've made several comments that you think or you hope the current arrangement won't be where you end up but I see no actions taken to change that. It's always "my lawyer doesn't think that's a good idea right now." When is it gonna be a good idea? Again, the longer you allow the current status quo, the more the judge will think you're okay with it.

Sorry, if I'm being hard on you, I'm pretty passionate about Father's rights. I fought for 50/50 custody and got it and at somewhat reasonable lawyer's fees. But I was clear from the start with what I wanted. My neighbor however, paid 4 to 5 times as much for a fancy lawyer and ended up with the standard every other weekend and one weekday night every other week. He's since been back to court many times to change that at even more expense.

Drew,

I do not see it as you being hard on me. If you can't what you want then what is even the point in saying anything at all. You are right regarding my attitude with the lawyer. I you, Fade, and V telling me how to handle this and my family and L telling the me the opposite.

In my gut I want to go with what you guys are saying. I want to fight for my children. I have now spoken to 3 total Divorce attorneys. Fade is right, they do not want to step on each others feet. One of them even said he did not want to second guess my attorney.

I called my attorney today to speak to him about it and the secretary said he will call back. Apparently he is going out of town for 2 weeks after today. I bet he will not even call me back. I know he has not put in the request to amend the order. I'm really getting frustrated with him.

Yesterday I looked for a Father's rights attorney and never called. I am going to go ahead and place that call today.

We received her interrogatories today. They are about 2 months late. Some of the crap she put in there just irritates me.

Th

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

Yesterday I looked for a Father's rights attorney and never called. I am going to go ahead and place that call today.

YES. there is ZERO harm in this, but a huge upside.
Take care of yourself and your relationship with your children.

Well, I have called three attorney's and it looks like no one likes to work on Thursdays.

On another note, I am feeling like crap today. I have just been really down in the dumps. It seems like no one but the people on this board can really understand what it is like.

I read WW's answers to the interrogatories and it makes me sick that she described our marriage as though I was this terrible husband. She said I have an explosive temper and that my parents could be witness to that. What is she even talking about? Her parents were more likely a witness to her explosive temper and anything my parents have ever witnessed.

One thing she did say in the answers is that she did not want to go into detail about everything unless I did not want to settle. That is the first time I have seen her mention wanting to settle. Right now I just want to get this thing over with and get her out of my life as quick as possible(even though she will never be completely out).

Then there is the side of me that just wants to talk to her. She was my best friend, my confidant, my everything for so long. Now, during the most difficult time in my life she is my enemy. I just wonder sometimes if we could just speak without going through L's if it would help move this thing along peacefully.

I mean, at what point will the WW stop being so damn mean.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

One thing she did say in the answers is that she did not want to go into detail about everything unless I did not want to settle.

Of course not. Then her dirty laundry would be out there also. Don't fall for this.

And again, you're giving her too much space in your head. You're not going to figure her out right now if ever. Trying to will just keep you spinning. And while you spin the clock is ticking.

Focus on you and your children.

Head Space--ugh, trying, trying every minute of everyday to get her out of there.

Heading to trivia night with some friends at a local tavern. That will help tonight.

I just finished your thread. I will pot my observation in points and the if you wish to discuss any point further, we can.

1. You are doing great. You really are.

2. Your Wife is not the person you married, she has been "taken over by aliens".

3. Quite possibly she hit the crisis of midlife (midlife crisis).

4. Find and read Sandi's 37 rules.

5. LAminate the rules and reread daily.

6. From her rules you will soon find where you are messing up.

7. Stop sitting on your ass and be proactive re your kids.

8. You are getting great advice from the boards here.

9. Things will get better in time, but it takes time.

10. A couple of threads ago you were asking how to get her respect. By not giving in to her every whim, for taking back your balls from her purse.

11. Lawyer up. ASAP. You have to fight for what you want.

12. LEave her be. It does look that you are a master at snooping. Stop it. Do it only if it gives you some sort of tactical advantage. Otherwise it really does not matter if she slept with OM 10 or 15 times in the last month. I understand that the urge is strong, but believe me, not knowing is bliss. And after all the absence of proof of an affair does not prove the absence of an affair.

13. Stay strong buddy. You are not alone in this. We are all rooting for you. Being a male LBS is tough...

Vapo

Vapo,

Thanks for stopping by. I agree with what you have said. I have thought about the Mid-life Crisis several times. I have ready Sandi's rules several times but have never printed them out. I have heard that idea before and like it. I am going to do that.

You are correct, I am a master of snooping. It kind of goes along with my line of work these days. There seems to be this fine line between what is healthy and what is not. Most of the things I find I can use against her. However, it does make it harder to detach when I am constantly finding out new things. I guess there is a point of diminishing returns. Perhaps I am there already.

W,

the problem with snooping is that you cannot unsee the stuff you see. So it is better not to snoop at all. Of course in your case it gives you the tactical advantage, but probably now you have enough of "ammo" and you can shelf the snooping. The main problem with snooping is that it keeps you from detaching, and you really do need to detach, to not get hurt by each and every action she does.

Alas, who she is seeing and who's dolphin she's polishing is none of your business anymore. You take care of your 2 darlings and let her flop in the wind. Take every possible precaution to protect your self financially and emotionally. Get a good lawyer, ASAP and ride their a$$ for results. MAke it crystal clear to them what your goals are re divorce and RIDE THEIR ASSES. You are paying for the ride.

Stay strong buddy...

Vapo,

Dolphin, bahaha. Never heard it put like that before.

Have fun today peeps! This one is for the kids. They want to see a happy mommy and daddy!

I have not posted much lately so I will give a status update.

Halloween was really fun. WW was at a house that was 4 houses down from mine. She allowed the kids to come by and say hello and stay long enough to take a picture. Of course she did not allow me to take them trick or treating. Another knock on her. She even allowed a person she met that night to take them trick or treating. The judge is going to have field day with her.

I was out of town all last week and so was my L. He is going to start working on amending the temporary custody order today. Hopefully the process will be smooth.

The Temp financial order was finalized. WW has already violated it by writing herself a check out the business. She honestly has no respect for the court orders and I hope it comes back to bite her.

My L is also going to try and get the restraining that was contained in the custody order amended. I spoke to my IC about this. She cautioned me to not even try contacting WW even when it is amended. She said the best thing will be to wait until WW contacts me even if it takes months. She said it will be seen as pursuit by her if I make first contact especially since my L is the one trying to get the order amended.

I feel like I have done a better job of detaching lately. I am at a phase where I am not as concerned about what WW is doing with her life. I have also started accepting the D is going to happen. I get more comfortable with this as each day passes. It is becoming easier for me to see the struggle it will be to try and reconcile at this point. I have a lot of friends that are telling me to stop thinking about reconciling. They tell me she is not a person I will ever be happy with.

I know that friends will do this but I am really starting to see it this way as well. I know I will be okay without her. I worry most about my kids. I do not want them to grow up in a broken home.

I spoke to the L yesterday. He is writing a letter to her L and asking for Right of First Refusal. He wants them to deny it in writing first. He is also going to schedule the permanent custody hearing.

I found out this weekend that she violated the custody order which states that the children are not to be around a person of the opposite sex overnight. She let them spend the night out with a friend. Normally, I would say that even thought the order does not allow this; it is not the intent of the order. However, the father of the friend is the one who helped her cover the affair. Additionally, she has suspected him of being a child molester in the past. We felt he inappropriately touched our daughter. While we were together we had a strict policy of not letting our children to be alone with him a anytime for any reason. Of course, now they are best friends. It scares the crap out of me because I think he is a predator and is taking advantage of how vulnerable she is right now. She is willing to do anything to get people on her side because she is so embarrassed by the affair.

I sent and email to my L about the situation this morning. I am hoping this will be something to get him to be more aggressive.

whyus,

I also just got myself a lawyer. I havent seen my girls for over 7 weeks after she took them to a women shelter. I have been patient all this time and now she is blaming me i was a terrible father because i never spent time with them etc. She has always stepped over me but enough is enough. I cant wait until we go to court and i can finally see my little girls. Everything right now is for them and only them. I am tired that she always gets her way. I guess is time for me to grow some balls too. I am taking her to court for extreme discipline. I have pictures of physical abuse. I am stopping her cycle and she will not affect my daughteres physiologically anymore, for what , so they can grow and be bullies when they are in middle school like her? I have admitted my flaws, and i am stopping my cycle. Sorry part is that she wont accept hers. ( she is never wrong) I wish you luck buddy! stay strong.

Thanks Angel,

If you have not starting doing so yet, keep a diary. Courts apparently love them. It will also help you remember everything and keep it in order.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

Thanks Angel,

If you have not starting doing so yet, keep a diary. Courts apparently love them. It will also help you remember everything and keep it in order.

Hi WhyUs, Im glad to see some action in your divorce case.

I would agree with the above, but amend it to say keep a diary for you, keep a journal for court. The journal will be only the facts, no opinions, no feelings. Document all time you spend with the kids, what fun things you did, and anything your WW did to interfere with your rights. Staple receipts as well for documentation. It should look something like this:

Originally Posted By: Journal

"Date. Time. Had custody today starting at 4:00 pm, WW brought kids at 5:52 pm, kids were dirty and had not done homework, WW demanded money for shoes. I took kids to the park and played soccer, then library. Checked out 6 kids books. Bought kids new shoes. Receipt attached. Took kids home, showered the kids and did homework. WW picked up kids at 10:00, two hours late. I sent books with kids, attached the following note requesting WW send the books back with kids. 'WW, Bobby and Sue checked out the following books..... Please make sure they have them when you drop them off Tuesday so I can return them to the library. Thanks, Me' "

Good point Fade,

Opinion does not matter to the courts when it comes to this. I have not been keeping receipts but will start doing so.

has your w changed any of her attitude towards you ? or is she still in her old little world wanting to divorce?

She is still wanting the divorce as far as I know. I have not communicated to her directly in 4 months. She is still doing what ever she can to interfere with my relationship with my kids.

I am so glad I checked in on you. It never occurred to me to keep a fact journal. I will start doing so right away!

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

She is still wanting the divorce as far as I know. I have not communicated to her directly in 4 months. She is still doing what ever she can to interfere with my relationship with my kids.

Can you share some examples of how she is interfering?

examples,

1) will not let them come to soccer practice or games when it is her day.--I am the coach.

2) Did not let them trick or treat with me on Halloween. Yet, a person they met that night brought them by my house.

3) Will not let them stay with me when she goes out of town. They stay with her parents or her brother.

4) Does not let me know about anything they are doing such as: doing well in school, having bad day at school, make new friends, etc..

5) Will not let them return my calls timely. Pretends she did not see my call and once she does they are asleep. Has them call the next day. Or will have them call when they are eating dinner or taking a bath--not a good time to call.

6) Tell them they can not invite me places they have been with her when it is my weekend to have them.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

examples,

1) will not let them come to soccer practice or games when it is her day.--I am the coach.

I would try to talk to her about this. But if she does not budge, there is nothing IMO that you can do. Some people are just small and petty.

2) Did not let them trick or treat with me on Halloween. Yet, a person they met that night brought them by my house.

Time to take your nuts out of her purse. She is doing this and other thing to spite you (IMO) and to rattle your chain. "Reserve" the next kids' time slot for yourself (christmas caroling,...) Get an even distribution of kids' holidays.

3) Will not let them stay with me when she goes out of town. They stay with her parents or her brother.

Again, I think you can have is stated in the separation agreement that you have first dibs on the kids (her also). So if she cannot watch the children, you are the first one asked.

4) Does not let me know about anything they are doing such as: doing well in school, having bad day at school, make new friends, etc..

To be honest, you cannot demand her to tell you that. Sure, it would be civil and nice, but ex spouses are often less than nice. Ask the kids themselves about their day. Anywayz, you asking your W about the kids (IMO) is perceived by her as pressure and attempted control.

5) Will not let them return my calls timely. Pretends she did not see my call and once she does they are asleep. Has them call the next day. Or will have them call when they are eating dinner or taking a bath--not a good time to call.

Water off the ducks back. She is just being a dick about it and it is wrong of her to do that. Again, she just sound mean and petty. I say mirror her behavior.

6) Tell them they can not invite me places they have been with her when it is my weekend to have them.

Dude, there are millions of great places where you can take your kids to. Why would you want them to relive the same experiences. Do some research and take them to new cool places.

Again, from your description it does sound that she is somewhat of a female dog, BUT I do see a controlling streak about you. I understand you, but it is not cool. You really do have to detach. Who gives a flying f where she took your kids. MAke new memories for them that will be just yours. Live that somewhat female doogish ex spuse of yours to herself and try not giving her any attention...

Vapo,

I agree with what you are saying. To clarify, I did not want to take my kids where she took them. My D7 voluntarily told me that her mother told her she could not let me take her somewhere. I could give a rats A$$ where she took them. I just don't like the fact that she told them I can't take them.

I agree that she is not obligated to tell me how the kids are doing. However, a good co-parent would want to ensure the other parent is aware of how the children are doing.

A lot of what she is doing is very petty. It is not really against the temporary custody order either. However, it is very clear that she is not wanting to co-parent at this time.

When we go to court for the permanent hearing the judge will see that she is not providing an environment for the children that is not conducive to co-parenting.

WU,

there is a very very simple explanation why she is doing stuff that you see her doing.

She is yanking on your chain so you would get into her face so she would have justification in front of the whole wide world that she really did not have another option but to leave you. SHE IS (DESPERATLY) TRYING TO MAKE YOU LIKE A TOTAL DICK.

Do you see it buddy? (this is not a rhetorical question, I honestly would like to know if you see it).

And what is the best way to deal with this type of behavior? Calmness. If she starts yanking your chain, just calmly state that you will not be talked to in this manner and if she does not stop you will walk away. And if she gets into your face, you (without warning) turn and walk away. Just remember, water off a duck's back...

She clearly does not respect you (a common feature) and is also suffering from entitlement. She wants everything and you are the b.stard that is in the way of her happiness.

Stay strong buddy...

Thanks Vapo,

I honestly believe that not talking for 4 months has been a blessing of sorts. I can't tell you how many emails and letters I have written without hitting the send button. I get it off my chest and then as far as she knows there was no reaction at all. I know there will come a time when we are speaking again and I will have to hold it in. "Water of a ducks back." I love that. I love to duck hunt as well so it will be an easy one for me to keep on my mind.

I agree that she is trying to make me look bad by getting a rise out of me. I think I have been pretty successful in fending that off. She on the other hand is really making herself look like an a-hole to a lot of people.

I honestly am in a better place these days. I have accepted the D will happen. I'm not fighting it. I am however fighting for my rights financially and as a father. I am starting to make long term plans without her and I think that is a good sign of my mental state right now.

I do find myself too pre-occupied with what she is trying to do to me in relation to the children. I am working on that and hopefully it will all just be water off a duck's back soon.

And the beautiful part is that she's digging her pit all by herself and when she comes to and finds herself at the bottom ob the pit, she WILL realize that the problem was/is HER.

Stay strong buddy...

Woke up this morning pissed at W. I dreamed about all the crap she has put me and my children through. These are the times I wish I could make her feel what she has made me feel. Hopefully the day will get better. I really do not like this feeling.

No worries mate, she'll get hers.

The WW just received the letter from my L today requesting First Refusal when she goes out of town over night. Boy did the spew start flying from the FIL. He told me that if I needed to do what was in the best interest of the kids. The marriage is over and I need to move on etc....

My L apparently listed all the times she has been out of town and who the kids have stayed with. Then he stated several of her attempts to interfere with my relationship with the kids.

FIL said that I need to come to the table and get the divorce done. The longer it drags our the more hurt and damage it is going to cause Guess he does not realize WW requested a restraining order so that we can not talk. I told him the ball is in her court. This is all so ridiculous. The FIL is clueless as to what she has been up to and he is very mad at me.

Then at the end of all his spew he says "there is a chance at a friendship after all of this if we just get it done." I honestly believe he is panicked because is daughter is messing things up. Not to mention he is having to pay her L fee's.

I am up for getting the D done and over with, just not on her terms. I'm not gong to give my kids up--period. I am willing to be reasonable and do 50/50 even though she is nutz right now.

WU,

of course FIL will side with her. Blood is thicker than water. I do not know what relationship you had with your FIL, but if you had a good relationship, I would at least give it a try and explain things to FIL (without any accusations or name calling) but I would be firm with regards the children. The children are 50% your and 50% wife's. No FILs no MILs have a say. And don't take stuff personally. It is almost certainly a fact, that your W gave them completely onesided story which makes you the bad guy (God only knows what she spinned). But do not expect your inlaws to "see the light".

Quote:

The WW just received the letter from my L today requesting First Refusal when she goes out of town over night. Boy did the spew start flying from the FIL. He told me that if I needed to do what was in the best interest of the kids. The marriage is over and I need to move on etc....

I did not quite understand you here...

And no, I would not (and do not) want to be friends with W. Friends do not do this to friends. And after all she is just trying to ease her conscience by offering you her friendship. The other day I heard a good one. An ex asking you to be friends with her is just like saying you your hijackers (after you've been rescued) Bye guys, let's stay in touch... Hell no...

Stay strong buddy...

I had a great realtionship with FIL before this. He keeps trying to say he wants to be friends after all this. My dad says he is greasing me and f***ing me when I turn around. Lol. I beleive he really thinks a relationship is salvageable after all this. I just cant make decisions based on that right now.

It is hard for him because WW is feeding him crap and he is conflicted by what he knows about me and what WW is telling him. When it comes to it he has to go with WW.

Right now he is the typical well-meaning family member that wants the divorce because he thinks it will solve all problems.

Last night and this morning I have been a little bothered by the fact that WW is upset at me. As much as I know I need to move on, these little controversies bother me because I feel like they push us further apart. I realize that I have to fight for my children. I just hate that it is putting a wedge between me and WW.

I have some hope in the back of my mind that we can work through this and every time she gets upset at me I know she and her family are just finding more justification for us to get a divorce. Feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. From reading Sandi's posts I know that every time I stand up to WW she is going to twist and turn and pitch a fit. It just [censored] that it has to be this way. I know it does not mean we will not reconcile. However, it sure feels like it is going to make it that much harder.

Perhaps I should look at it like I am not going to be treated like a door mat and have her continue to lose respect for me. Even though it feels negative now, in the long run she will respect me more and that is good. Who knows... Trying to figure it out and guess what she is thinking or feeling is pointless.

Boundaries boundaries! Let her know your boundaries when ever she starts pushing your buttons, you know what to do. Let her know how you feel and just walk away from the situation and talk about it later. I also felt like that with my wife , damn if i do damn if i dont. I never had any boundaries with her and she just walked all over me. Where is my self-respect ? I got the courage now to take her to court in order to see if kids. I am also reading and taking advise from your tread and wrote down the idea of getting first dibs when ever she is not with the kids. I have told myself she will no longer step over me. She will no longer treat me like a toy. I am a human being with feelings.

I went out with some friends last night and apparently they have a person they want to set me up with. She has a PHd and graduated from Vanderbilt and is a college professor. --and she looks super hot in the pictures they showed me.

When they were telling me all this I started to get really excited. I did not even think of WW. I realize how easy it is for her not to give a damn about me while she is infatuated with OM. I am most likely the furthest thing from her mind. This is why it is so important for the relationship with OM to end. Otherwise, she will never really have any interest in saving our M.

I am a little hesitant about meeting someone before the D is final. It just adds another level of complexity to things. However, I do think it is time to start moving on. I just do not want to hurt my case in court by seeing another woman. I also do not want to bring a person into the mess that is currently my life and hurt them in any way.

My thoughts exactly WhyUs, in fact I posted something similar on RDs threads today. Any R intended to be can wait.

Don't want to p in the soup.

V

YES, you can totally forget about the marriage when you focus on a different girl. Thats what happen when i went out. I was like " you know what , this isnt that bad, this girls seems pretty interesting and fun!

But in our heart , we want this marriage to work. Better not risk it.

I just found out that a friend of mine has sent a couple of emails to WW over the past two months. He has essentially encouraged her to save the marriage. He has encouraged her to watch certain movies and listen to certain songs that are inspiring.

He said the first time he sent her an email she responded and said she would watch the movie. She did not respond on the second email he sent.

Do you think this kind of thing is good or bad? I honestly had no idea that the emails were being sent so I had no control over it.

I think it's bad, because your W is bound to get the impression that you put him up to it. And you will be in the dog house because of it and in her eyes you will be painter pathetic...

Yep, that is what I was thinking. She is in no place mentally to be receiving practical advice from a person that is pro marriage.

Yea it is bad just like vap says. But why did your friend even do that behind your back? I would be beyond mad if that was me.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

I honestly had no idea that the emails were being sent so I had no control over it.

No, you don't.

I'm not mad at the friend. He is a very nice person and mentor to me. His intentions were good. Sometimes even those of us with the best of intentions make mistakes. I will just keep rolling with the punches.

She also knows him and there is a chance that she would know he would send those emails without any pressure from me. I have learned not to assume WW is thinking anything. As humans, we try to fill the gaps when we do not know the answers. The fact is, we rarely can fill the gaps accurately. However, this does not prevent us from trying:)

WhyUs, it as it is.

Neither good nor bad. In time WW will understand the friend initiated himself.

Bear it no mind, say thank you for caring but please ask me.

It is much better than a PF (poisonous friend).

V

So nice to hear from you V. I have not been on the board as much lately. I will have to catch up on your sitch soon.

I wouldn't sweat your friend's messages. It's not you pursuing, its outside pressure and in my experience that's the only thing that ever ends affairs.

As for you, I think its great to get yourself out there and meet new people, but I would hold off on any sort of relationship or focusing on one person until you are much further down the D path. Right now, your focus needs to be on improving your custody agreement.

As far as your FIL, you need to accept he will support his daughter and Im sure she has filled his head with all sorts of lies about you. Do your inlaws know about the affair, and that they watched your kids while your WW was going to see her boyfriend?

Thanks fade. Ha, the song he sent her was called "Slow Fade." I agree on the relationships. I have no idea if the FIL knows about the A while they were watching. He does not care to hear anything negative from me. He just blocks out anything negative in regards to her or his parenting of her. He is a poor excuse for a father in that sense. He does not believe in accountability when it comes to his children.

As much as I want to tell him about the A specifics, I am going to hold off. I don't get the sense that it will matter to them either way. Her parents are as lost as she is.

Another day gone by and I feel this sense of peace. I do miss WW but I also feel this sense of peace and letting her go. It is weird. I wonder if this is what she felt months ago.

The holiday's are almost upon us and I imagine this will be a strange time for both of us. We are not D'd yet but may as well be. I thought by this time I would be able to invite her over for Christmas morning when the kids open their gifts. Right now that does not seem like a possibility. I will still probably invite her on the condition that it is only her and none of her family that comes over. I don't want her mom, dad, or sister hanging around my house on Christmas. I just don't want the negative vibes.

The last few nights have I have been having dreams about WW cheating on me. Every time she has done something more egregious that what actually happened. I wake up angry with her in the middle of the night. When I wake up in the morning I feel exhausted. I can remember having dreams like this early on in our relationship before we were married. It is weird because throughout the day I feel like I am over it. I guess my mind is trying to work these unresolved issues out while I am sleeping and I can not consciously control my thoughts.

Does this happen to anyone else? Does anyone have techniques for stopping this from happening?

I read this on another site and want to put it out there to see what DB folks think about it. I have considered exposing the affair but also feel like it will be perceived as pursuit at this point. Sorry it is long but I think it is worth the read.

You should look at infidelity as an addiction and treat it as such. An affair is just as destructive as an addiction and it harms everyone it touches. You can apply many of the strategies that addiction recovery programs have used successfully for years. Many spouse's, when faced with their partners affair, make mistakes. Sometimes huge mistakes but this is normal and to be expected. This is such a devastating time in your life and your emotions are running in huge overtime. The thing to do is put all these emotions on hold and use sound necessary steps that are from a rational, educated and compassionate place. Trust me, this is the hardest thing in the world to do because I know that your world is crumbling at your feet and your heart is torn to pieces and you feel like your soul has died. If you let your emotions take over, your marriage could end up sliding towards divorce even though that isn't what you want.

Almost ALL affairs end. Less than 1% of affairs go on to be real relationships. Most all those who stray want to reconcile the marriage. The problem is, if they stay in the affair too long, the betrayed spouse gets fed up, loses all feelings of love toward their spouse and end up leaving. The say things like "I don't even know this person anymore!" or "This isn't the person I married." There are steps you can take to end their affair.

Intervention
Just like you do with someone addicted to alcohol or drugs, a good ole intervention! Where all their friends and family are there telling them that right NOW they have stop what they are doing and get help (marriage counseling or coaching). The family and friends also set firm boundaries with what they are willing to put up with now and in the future if this person wants to stay in their lives. This is a form of "Tough Love". You're saying that you love them and the life you both have together very much and that you're willing to make them uncomfortable and angry in order to end their destructive behavior. You're also saying that you care enough about yourself to set boundaries about what you are willing to accept in your life if they continue on in this affair.

Stop the Madness!
You need to stop screaming, yelling, fit throwing, arguing, and blaming. I know this seems impossible because they deserve all of the above but you want to look good to them and a screaming manic doesn't look good to anyone. You must learn to keep your emotions under control. If you can't then find a support group, yell and scream about it to a counselor but do everything you cannot to direct it towards your spouse. You want to be someone they want to be with, remember that.

Stop Annoying Behaviors
Are there things that drive your spouse nuts and are very irritating to your spouse? Stop doing them! Just know that nothing you have done or haven't done is any justification for your spouse's affair. But since we are on a mission of saving the marriage these things could be coming in between you both and they need to end. You don't need to become the perfect spouse and personal change takes time so don't start blaming yourself for the affair and don't fall for the "if I'm just good enough the affair will end". This all leads to you thinking you have to be perfect and that isn't true. Some things would be poor hygiene habits, too much time in doing things like TV, computer, talking on the phone, shopping, etc., talking about your spouse in poor light to others outside the marriage, losing control and going into rages, things like this. I'm sure you get the idea.

Make Your Spouse's Life With You Peaceful, Respectful
Do not go crazy and smoother them, this will drive them away. You don't need to get presents, spend every minute of every day next to them, and hover over them. This is annoying and we are trying NOT to be annoying. You need to uphold your own dignity. Be polite, respectful, and friendly but do NOT smoother! This is all about honoring both yourself and your spouse. This has nothing to do about you becoming a doormat and allowing the affair to continue on without standing up for yourself. This is about having good manners in the face of a very bad situation. Don't be mislead into thinking that you are saying that the affair was in a any way okay. What you are doing is stopping the harm being done to your marriage by intervening.

Confronting Your Spouse
Before confronting your spouse be sure to have rock solid evidence so they can't start denying it and then try and get you to feel "crazy" and that it's all in your head. When you are confronting them you are not blaming, accusing, or being disrespectful. You are making factual statements about your evidence. Like, "I have found your cell phone records and I have seen you two together, I have these pictures from the P. I." Things like this. You just state what you have against them. Then you tell them how you feel about it. "I am totally devastated and hurt beyond your wildest imagination. My world fell apart when I found (fill in the blank). This will destroy our marriage if this continues on. You need to end all contact with (other person) and commit yourself back to our marriage.

You may think that you can't confront your spouse because you are supposed to be friendly and respectful but this has nothing to do with that. This is about saving your marriage. Being friendly and respectful doesn't mean that you are going to hide your head in the sand and pretend everything is okay when it's clearly not. Your goal is to make the affair extremely uncomfortable. You are to keep your dignity during this confrontation though. Draw your boundaries and stick to them.

Expose, Expose, Expose

I know, I know, you really don't want to do this. You have many excuses why not too. I can't seem to get people to do this but it's the most important thing for you to do. If you chose not to expose the affair you are letting your spouse continue on with the affair because you are making it safe for him/her to do so. Affairs are just like addictions and they take off like fire under the cloak of darkness but bring the affair to the light of day and it like throwing gallons of water on the fire making it go right out. A lot of the time, affairs stop only when exposed.

Who to Tell
Your family, your spouse's family, your friends, his/her friends, his/her boss or work, colleagues, your church family, the other person's family and friends, etc. Just know that you are not "spouse bashing", this is not where you run and tell everyone you come across what a horrible spouse you have. That is not the point in telling people. Here is what you want to say. "My spouse is having an affair with (other person). I know this because of (tell of the evidence). I love (spouse's name) and I want to save our marriage. Please help me by encouraging him/her to do the right thing by ending their affair and all contact with (other person's name) and recommit to our marriage.

It is VERY important that you tell the other person's spouse if they are married. This will help in getting the affair over quickly. This is your goal, to end the affair and this is the quickest way to do just that. There is no hope for your marriage if the affair continues.

Most affairs happen in the workplace so it is extremely important to expose the affair where they work. Most places of employment will put a stop to an ongoing affair if they know about it. Get in contact with his/her human resources department and let them know what is going on. Remember that when you are exposing the affair to their workplace to keep it respectful and not spouse bashing. Here's what you can say. "My (spouse's name) is having an affair with one of your employee's (other persons name). I know you will want to know this because of the high risk of sexual harassment due to inter office affairs. I would hate to see this happen to your company. I want to keep my marriage and family together and I love (spouse's name) very much so I am hoping that you will take steps in stopping this affair. Thank you."

You will only be taken seriously if you remain composed and calm the whole time. You don't want to sound like a psycho going off on their spouse trying to stir up trouble. You will find that most people run away when you start talking about infidelity but if you talk about it in a matter of fact way, more people will listen to you and take you seriously.

Is Confronting Mean?
A lot of people think that exposing the affair to all these people is mean. I will tell you that your spouse will become VERY ugly when they find out about all the people you have been telling. They are this way because, number one, they don't want their fantasy to end and putting light on it makes it end very fast. Number two, they may be ashamed of what they have done and aren't proud of the fact and are upset that their mistakes are known. You cannot let this stop you. Do not just look at today! The anger will pass, you are striving for a bigger goal and that is saving your marriage at all costs! Treat this just like your spouse has an addiction and needs a major intervention to stop his/her destructive behavior. In no way are you being "mean" to your spouse, you are saving them and your family. This is where your love and commitment comes in, where you can face your spouse's anger to save something as precious as your marriage and family.

Confronting the Other Person
You are NOT going to want to do this face to face. I do not ever tell anyone to do this face to face. Emotions can really go wild and you will find yourself behaving in ways you wish you never did. It's better to either write a letter or an email. You only want to say this, "I know that you are having an affair with my husband/wife. I love him/her very much and I want to save my marriage and keep my family together. Your relationship with my husband/wife is NOT okay. This affair is coming in between us and making it impossible to heal our marriage. Please respect our marriage and end all contact with (spouse's name) forever.

Okay, so they will probably have a really good laugh over it or deny it all or say that they are going to sue the pants off you. Believe it or not the point of the letter isn't to get them to end their affair with your spouse but to through a huge wrench into the affair and really rock the boat. You want to cause major conflict in their relationship. You don't want their relationship to be all rosy and wonderful, like they think it is. Remember they are in a fantasy and none of it is real. The sooner your spouse wakes up to this the better. You are hoping that they know spend their time together talking about YOU and how horrible and psycho you are, and this is okay. It doesn't matter what they are talking about as long as it's unpleasant. Having them fight is better then having them have a romantic dinner together.

Your spouse may have also told the affair partner that they were divorced, separated or that there really is no love at home. Sending this letter will show you in a different light and the affair partner may start seeing that your spouse has been lying to them too.

Get Support
Find a support group so that you can find others in the same situation that you are in. It's amazing at how much this helps because at times like these it's so easy to feel very much alone. I would also try and find a marriage coach/counselor that deals with infidelity. They really understand all the in's and out's of an affair and can really help you. This is very important because your in so much pain that you can't see beyond the right now and you need someone there to help you see the future and what moves to make so that you can save your marriage. They will help you not do things from an emotional stand point but a rational one.

I had my kids this weekend. I had to get on to my D7 for not listening. She seemed upset so I asked her what was wrong. Then she yelled "you do not know what it is like to have your whole life taken away from you. Nothing is the same anymore. Everything has changed. That is what is wrong."

I just wanted to cry for her. It is so sad what children have to endure when their parents can't pull their crap together. My position has always been that we brought these kids into this world and we have a responsibility to take care of them and protect them in all aspects of life. This used to be WW's way of thinking as well.

Times like this suck.

Hi WhyUs! Admittedly, I haven't fully read your situation so I can't offer a whole lot, except that it seems you are doing awesome! This stuck out to me due to a similar situation:

Quote:

I have no idea if the FIL knows about the A while they were watching. He does not care to hear anything negative from me. He just blocks out anything negative in regards to her or his parenting of her.

My inlaws of course side with my W. When one sort of cornered me a couple of months ago I initially told her that things are between me and my W and I would not discuss it with her. However, she continued and started accusing me of untrue things, so I told her "there is a lot that you aren't being told but I promised W that I wouldn't say anything about it. What she chooses to tell you is her business, but just know that there is a lot more than being told." And I left it at that. Never heard anything else from her other than the usual niceties. Oh well. Influences and such...

I have been thinking a lot today about how terribly out if hand this divorce has gotten. It is like the first shot was fired early by her and a war has broken out. It just seems like deep down we both know each other has good intensions. We both want what is right for our kids but are to afraid too let our guard down.

The R is over. I'm OK with that. Our M is over. I get it. We both want what is best for our kids. Why can't we come together one last time and take care of them? I want to talk to her about this. I know there is something inside of her that wants to do this right as well. What will it take to show her I genuinly want what is the best for all of us.

I'm too afraid to quit fighting her because she will run all over me if she does not feel my efforts are genuine. She is too afraid to do otherwise as well.

Hi WhyUs, if it helps - one of the things they said at my divorce recover meeting recently was this...

'during and after D, try and communicate with your spouse as though there are 'truce' rather than 'war' conditions.

It does take two, and perhaps you can change the dynamic here if you can overcome your fears about being run over. I think you can have a truce and stand up for your own interests too...

Take care

Hi WhyUs, hope all is well.

Quote:

The R is over. I'm OK with that. Our M is over. I get it. We both want what is best for our kids. Why can't we come together one last time and take care of them? I want to talk to her about this. I know there is something inside of her that wants to do this right as well. What will it take to show her I genuinly want what is the best for all of us.

I don't know. It may take you reaching out with the olive branch, but who knows. Never hurts to try if you approach it with the angle of lets just try to do what's best for the kids. Just be careful in your wording, because perception is everything, you know? My W's perception of things is so skewed that if I don't carefully word it, then she assumes that it is an attack. Not sure if that made sense, but you get the drift.

Quote:

I'm too afraid to quit fighting her because she will run all over me if she does not feel my efforts are genuine. She is too afraid to do otherwise as well.

Try the olive branch. That's all you can do, you know? How do you know that she is too afraid? That falls into the mind reading area...

Scotto and Spiff,

Thanks for the advice. I am assuming that she is too afraid. It really is mind reading. The olive branch does seem to be the only answer. It is complicated because my only contact with her has to be in writting. I do not want to say anything that will compromise my position. However, that may be what it takes to get her to see I am genuine. My family is telling me not to do it. They feel she can't be trusted.

I am willing to admit I was not a perfect husband. At times I was an ahole and could have done better. I know that this is not entirely her fault. I dont agree with how she handled it but I am over the A. I have accepted that we have to move on. I believe that she still thinks I am bitter because of the way she has handled things. She knows she has really tried to screw me. I am assuming(again) that she will not believe I am ready to move past this for the children.

There is also the issue of her feeling she has to justify her actions. She is trying to do this by being mean and trying to make me look bad. Compromising may not be in her playbook right now.

I guess reaching out to her really is a low risk high reward option in the end. If she says no I really have not lost anything.

Hi WhyUs,

Quote:

There is also the issue of her feeling she has to justify her actions. She is trying to do this by being mean and trying to make me look bad. Compromising may not be in her playbook right now.

If she is still behaving in that sort of way, then the olive branch may be difficult to do. No one wants to extend it only to have it shoved right back into their face. No one. But, remember that this isn't about being the bigger person but about what's best for the kids.

Quote:

I guess reaching out to her really is a low risk high reward option in the end. If she says no I really have not lost anything.

Bingo. Really, what do you have to lose?

Well, WW denied me right of first refusal for the kids when she goes out of town. I honestly have no idea what she is thinking. I just can't understand how she thinks this is in the best interest of the kids. I do not see how a judge will be happy with this.

Depending where you live, she may not legally be able to do that? Sorry, I haven't kept up on your sitch lately but have you talked to a lawyer?

Yeah, this has all gone through lawyers. We r under temporary orders right now and have been for 5 months. She goes out of town a lot for business and leaves the kids with her parents or brother. She is doing everything in her power to alienate me from my kids.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

She is doing everything in her power to alienate me from my kids.

And you're letting her.

Drew,

I've met with 4 attorneys at this point. Everyone of them has advised exactly what I am doing. We formally asked for ROFU so that she would formally deny it. Now we will be able to show the judge that she is unwilling to allow this reasonable request in order to keep me from the kids.

I want to fix this immediately but it is important to gather enough evidence prior to going in front of the judge. My L is scheduling a hearing after the first of the year.

Go back and read thru this thread. We finally convinced you to be more aggressive with your lawyer back in October. And I hear at lot of "I'm hoping my lawyer ...", "left a message", "maybe next week", "after the first of the year", etc. Seems very passive to me.

And then there's this:

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

My L apparently listed all the times she has been out of town and who the kids have stayed with.

Apparently? You didn't review the letter before he sent it? Doesn't seem very hands on to me. And yes, you've talked to four lawyers. You need ONE lawyer actively fighting for your rights as a father.

In the meantime, the clock keeps ticking with her denying you access and more of the status quo.

Originally Posted By: WhyUs

My L is scheduling a hearing after the first of the year.

That's a month away!!! Is the court system so busy you can't get in?? Or is your lawyer too busy?

You're okay with living with a crappy temporary custody order over the holidays? A special time with YOUR children?

Hes, the court system is that busy. No, I did not read the letter before he sent it. He went over the contents and I approved. Your right on this. I should of had him send it to me first. The other issue here is that I do not have unlimited resources. I'm borrowing money from family and I am 10gs in.

I can live with the order over the holidays. In fact, I get them more over the holidays than I normally do. Long term I will not be happy with the temp order.

My biggest concern right now is that the children have been with her for a while now and the judge may not want to mess with the status quo. Unless she does something really crazy like get arrested with a DUI with the kids in her car I will wait patiently and document everything until the court date.

Ok, at least you have a lawyer involved. Personally I think I would have a more aggressive one but that is a decision for each person to make. I wish you the best buddy!

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