I have been divorced for two months now. To cut a long story short, in the 10 years that we have been together, H and I always had communication issues.
He was a totally different person when we first started dating. He was completely into me and we saw each other every day for almost two years. We saw flashes of each other's tempers and ugly sides but it was only after we were preparing to get married and after we got married, that cr@p started to hit the ceiling fan.
His first angry outburst took place when our child was 1 and started over a seemingly trivial incident. He threw things around the house, screamed at the top of his voice and basically frightened my kid and me. He basically just snapped and went berserk.
The day after his outburst, when he was not in, I quickly packed some belongings and fled to a friend's house with my kid. We had a family conference with both sides of the family, and eventually decided to move back into the house. It was tough the first few months as he was angry at my flight and would blast me every time I cringed when he was near me. Till this day, I never understood why he snapped.
Eventually, I managed to put his first outburst behind me. What I couldn't get over was how emotionally detached he had become. Every inconvenience in life was because of me. He didn't like it when I bothered him with decisions and he also didn't like it when I didn't ask him for his opinions. When I was facing personal crises, I was often left to my own devices. I had to deal with a lot of things on my own and I always felt like a single parent.
Ours became a SSM. I was bitter that he only seemed to be interested in my body and had less and less desire to be physical with him. The meds I was taking to help me sleep through the night did not help with my libido.
I went through a sort of MLC in my early thirties when I saw that I was trapped in a very unhappy marriage. I never had an affair, physical or emotional; I just started feeling very unfulfilled and disappointed by how my life had turned out. And I guess the action in the bedroom just totally dried up.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Girlonf,
Do you regret the D? Are you looking to get back with the ex?
Thanks, Cadet. I have been lurking on this board for the past 2 months, wishing that I had come to this forum instead of another forum.
I have been a very good pupil and have read read DR, SSM, How to get through to the man you love and many other M books.The prob/irony is that I only got to read these books and this forum after the divorce.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Just realised that my short story isn't that short and I haven't got to the part where we divorced.
Thanks for the advice. Not much of a problem keeping the books and sites to myself as we've lived separately for the past 6 months and have been divorced for 2.
However, I did message him parts if the SSM book after we were divorced, to show that I finally understood his frustrations over our SSM.
Would that be a big boo boo?
Ours became a SSM. I was bitter that he only seemed to be interested in my body and had less and less desire to be physical with him. The meds I was taking to help me sleep through the night did not help with my libido.
I went through a sort of MLC in my early thirties when I saw that I was trapped in a very unhappy marriage. I never had an affair, physical or emotional; I just started feeling very unfulfilled and disappointed by how my life had turned out. And I guess the action in the bedroom just totally dried up.
This is likely very typical of a man.
A sexual pursurer and emotional distancer.
How are you going to be different?
Hi Tlf2,
Yes, I regret the divorce. I started having second thoughts 1 week after filing. I asked if he would consider separation instead to work on the marriage and he flat out refused.
When I got to see my C later and told her what happened, she explained that from his perspective, I was still looking for a way out of the marriage.
I have listened to his complaints and validated his concerns. Even when it really hurt me the way he put them across.
I realised that there is truth to what he has said. I fully acknowledge the part I have played in the break down of our marriage.
(Continuation of my "short" story)
Early this year, we faced another crisis in our marriage. It was the same issue again. He was angry at the way I had tried to resolve the issue on my end without consulting him. I had avoided consulting him because he was easily stressed by these unexpected issues in life.
And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.
To cut a long story short, I filed for a divorce when I saw that it was going down the same route of pushing all the blame on me. I was scared and confused because the magnitude of this 2nd outburst was many many times that of the previous one. He really snapped. I didn't know what had caused him to snap and I was scared that I would trigger another outburst.
A week after I had served him the papers, I had second thoughts. I wanted to try separation instead of divorce, and work things out. For the sake of my kid and because for some perverted reasons that I still can't figure out, I still had feelings for him. I started remembering the good in our marriage and my heart softened.
I asked if he wanted a reconciliation and he flat out refused me. It was only about a month later that I suspected something fishy as he didn't sound like himself. He kept asking me to wish him well and said that he wished me well.
I finally caught on and demanded to know who the OW was. He admitted but wouldn't tell me who it was. He said that they had only started the affair after he was served with the divorce papers. I suspected that it was a colleague and he finally fessed up.
In the months leading up to the divorce, there were lots of false hopes. I suggested reconciliation again, and he said that he would consider. And then he said that he would take his chances with the OW because she made him feel good and feel like a man.
I then did all the things that I wasn't supposed to. I pleaded, I cried, I pointed out all the good things in the marriage, I told him that I would change. I wrote him hundreds of emails and letters. I sang and recorded him songs. I basically had no pride left.
Just when I was going to let go of the marriage, he came back and asked me what I would do to reconcile. I was wary of getting my hopes up again but I decided to listen to what he had to say.
Basically, the talk was all about his terms. He told me more about the OW, about how his family had met the OW and loved her. They were angry with me and he told me that I would have to suck it up. He said he didn't want to be in a SSM anymore. And then he dropped the bomb again. He didn't want to drop the divorce.
I was angry, hurt and frankly speaking, quite humiliated. He was annoyed by my lack of enthusiasm. I told him to give me some time to think about it.
The next time we talked, I asked him more about what he was going to do with the OW. He said that he had told her about his decision. They would remain as good friends. And that was when something snapped in me. I told him that he would have to cut off all contact with the OW, that one couldn't and didn't sleep with good friends. If he didn't want to cut off contact with her, then I would have to have access to his phone.
At that point in time, I hadn't read any of the self-help books yet. But like what's written in one of them, this need to have the OW totally out of our lives is instinctive. I knew that there was no way our marriage could heal as long as she was in the picture.
I told him that it was either that or he would have to give me access to his phone, and he would also have access to mine.
This got him angry and he wasn't happy that I was talking terms with him. To him, I should be dying from happiness that he was even willing to consider salvaging the marriage.
I asked him what he would do if she approached him again. He said that he would tell me. When I probed what would happen if he found that he couldn't let go of his feelings for her, he said that I could then apply for divorce against him using adultery as a reason.
I was devastated. On hindsight, I realise that he wasn't and probably still isn't ready to let go of the OW and start on working on the marriage.
I am sure I am reading too much into this but my latest purchase of M self-help books was sent to the X matrimonial home. My kid passed them to me when dropped off by XH. I am sure that I had chosen my rental address for shipping. Is this a sign that maybe I shouldn't just drop the rope yet?
Ah, this is purely self indulgence.
I admit that I am rather impatient and can come across as critical and curt, ironically and especially to the ones nearest and dearest to me. I see it as my duty to help them with their problems but I guess I have to realise that not everyone wants me to save them or point out what they could have done better.
After reading the 5LL, I realised that his top 2 needs were words of affirmation and physical touch. Mine were acts of service and quality time. Which explains why I always felt like a piece of furniture/ meat to him. And why he always recoiled when I wanted him to talk to me and share more about himself with me.
And the deepest cut? The fact that he was a good friend with the OW for years. He could talk to her and confide in her when I was begging him to do the same with me. I even remember asking him what he talked to his colleagues about and why he couldn't talk about the same things with me.
Am seriously multi-tasking now. Reading Gary Chapman's One more try while waiting for my posts to be moderated.
Read the pursuit and distance thread that might explain the difference in reaction to the love languages
And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.
Girlonf, this concerns me a great deal. I probably would be asking for a restraining order instead of trying to reconcile. You say that outburst #2, was far more violent than outburst #1. What happens with #3? Please be very careful, for the sake of yourself, and most importantly, for the sake of your child. Your child's safety is more important than your M. Your H has a lot of work to do, and it has nothing to do with you. So continue with your path, fix what needs to be fixed in you, but realize that you can't fix your H, he has to do that.
Girlonf, I'm sorry for what you have experienced in your M. I must admit, my question would be similar to that from Sunny B. Why would you want to return to an abusive relationship? My advice would be that you think long and hard about whether that would be what YOU want - and whether it is the best thing for the whole family - not whether he hopes to reconcile.
Without reading back, have you read DR or DB yet? MWD talks about saving your M if at all possible - unless it is highly dysfunctional or there has been abuse. What do you think would be different if you guys did give things another try? Would it only be a matter of time before your child is cowering behind the door again? I would say yes unless your partner has some kind of epiphany.
Have you read the thread on abuse on this forum? I'm lucky enough never to have experienced abuse in my R, but I have learned a little about it from what posters like Vanilla and Zelda have posted. I would recommend you read that thread anyway. You may also want to look at codependency, which seems to be a theme in abusive or addictive situations. Many posters recommend the codependent no more book.
Take care and keep posting xx
And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.
Girlonf, this concerns me a great deal. I probably would be asking for a restraining order instead of trying to reconcile. You say that outburst #2, was far more violent than outburst #1. What happens with #3? Please be very careful, for the sake of yourself, and most importantly, for the sake of your child. Your child's safety is more important than your M. Your H has a lot of work to do, and it has nothing to do with you. So continue with your path, fix what needs to be fixed in you, but realize that you can't fix your H, he has to do that.
Sunny, if physical violence is a threat than I absolutely agree. Is it?
I'm not asking if he raised his voice.
I'm not asking if he threw a remote control in anger.
Has he ever hit you or your child?
Not pushed away if you were pushed away if you were pursuing him, not accidental contact in a rowdy situation...but actual intentionally taking action intended to deliver physical harm?
I PROMISE my STBX has said the same thing. I probably had 3 angry outbursts in 10 years of M. STBX claims to have 'video footage' of me and S11 that would 'cost me the kids forever that she hopes not to use'. I PROMISE there is nothing the courts could ever see that would take the kids away. It is absolutely absurd. I NEVER hit her. I think I broke a remote control once. But while I'm a long ways from a Buddhist monk, I'm a long way from an dangerous person.
I'm not saying "oh, it's ok, it's no big deal". No, my STBX was scared. She said she had an angry dad that she was scared of and had PTSD, and was afraid of me during these exchanges. Of course I don't feel good about that, and recognize I need to do everything possible to eliminate this. On my side being told this was basically like being called an abusive monster, about the worst thing you can call a guy. I tried managing this, but these days it seems that isn't good enough. Anything less than perfection is reason to cut bait.
I guess I just think about Good Will Hunting homes, you know, drunk dad, belt/wrench, knocking mom around. And women would STAY in those marriages. I agree, not healthy, and I'm glad the message is being passed not to put up with that. But from this guy's perspective the needle has swung so far I know I could never measure up. If I can't lose my cool every 3 years then I'd rather be single for life than labeled abusive.
Sunny, I'm not disagreeing with you either, just clarifying the situation. And maybe I am abusive and I'm defending stuff that's worthy of the death penalty. I guess the forum will light up and let me know that...
Also- I will be following this thread. This dynamic was very similar to my marriage. In fact, it would probably be a good idea for you to read my first few threads from the beginning. It might be what your H would have typed had he been here.
Talk soon and hang in.
I admit that I am rather impatient and can come across as critical and curt, ironically and especially to the ones nearest and dearest to me. I see it as my duty to help them with their problems but I guess I have to realise that not everyone wants me to save them or point out what they could have done better.
This is what I am interested in.
No matter what happens, you contributed some to the downfall of your marriage. It sounds like you might be walking down a path of self-discovery here. How are you going to take the valuable information you learned through this to make yourself a better version of you for your next relationship, regardless of who it is with?
I will add I've had a better R with my kids than ever. YET- 9 months ago I lost my temper. S and D were fighting, and I lost my cool. Son locked himself in the bedroom. I forced the door open with my shoulder. He was scared. I was yelling.
I cooled down quickly. We talked through it. I acknowledged that I was human and that while this wasn't the way I should act, I couldn't promise never to do it again. But I DID promise that I would never hurt him. We talked about it. He has his own challenges.
And you know what? We have a great R. He loves me, I love him, we can get upset now and then and it's ok.
And you know what else? My D was 10 times more angry than I was. He didn't beat me, but he did believe in spanking, and did that in a rage a few times. I WAS scared of my dad - ***WHEN HE WAS MAD***. But I loved him, never thought anything of it, and you know what? I have a GREAT relationship with him.
To me this reaction is just a sign that M isn't possible anymore. Everyone deserves better.
I feel like I can chime in here because the thing that I did to contribute to our marriage's deterioration in the ever-more-distant past was explosive anger/losing my temper.
I have to agree that regardless of the situation, at minimum physical separation was very necessary on your part and to that extent I commend you for doing that.
I want to make it clear that I was never physically violent and my loss of temper never lasted for hours, just a few minutes...which can seem like hours to the person on the receiving end, I know.
What happened was she would do disrespectful things or hurtful things, I would keep quiet about it and take it for as long as I could, and eventually I would pop, yell and argue. I never saw myself as being intimidating or threatening. I only saw myself as being hurt and expressing my anger at the source.
It took me a long time to change that. But once I fully understood what I was doing and how it came across, I made huge strides and can happily say that despite some very intense hurt she's directed my way in the recent past, I have always kept my cool.
The problem here is that your H is either emotionally immature (this was me) or has a more serious issue. I am by nature an introvert and an analytical thinker. Whenever I have experienced strong emotions or emotional responses to outside events or people in my life, I never knew how to think about, deal with, or control my emotions if they were strong enough. Being an introvert, it's not that I don't want to talk about it, it just honestly never occurs to me to talk about how I'm feeling. So I didn't deal with them at all until the pressure built and I popped.
The thing is, as I saw with my wife, living on eggshells for fear of the next time (and there will always be a next time until he does something about it) will likely cause you to put up a wall until you will no longer feel for him or care about him in any way. You will probably get to where you say 'you love him but are not in love with him' because of the emotional distance his explosive anger is forcing you into.
Assuming there is not a more serious issue at stake and just immaturity, he has likely become addicted to the anger and the release cycle. I know I was. It's not something you can easily break and, in my case, I HAD to blow my stack like that because I had no other tools in the toolbox. It was the only way for me to feel some relief because the pain I was feeling was so great. But like most fixes, it only made me feel better for a short time, and only made my marriage worse.
The good news is that there are solutions and ways to deal with it for him if he is capable and motivated. I finally started to get very concerned about what I was doing because I felt like the way I was acting wasn't the 'real me'...yet, unfortunately, I had to admit that was who I had become and only I could change it.
I began going to IC myself in addition to MC with wife. I found through just talking it out with my C that I could start to see patterns in my life, her life, our marriage, and the broken way we did things that put me in the 'danger zone'. I finally was able to deal with the small things without any help. When big things would come up with her, I'd go see the IC about it and simply talk it out. Again, being an introvert and somewhat private person anyway, that didn't come naturally to me and I had to learn, at 43 years old, that it was necessary.
So I still get angry as all people do from time to time. Luckily for me and those around me, I have learned to deal with it constructively and haven't had any angry outbursts in years. So it is possible to overcome. But it takes a long time and serious commitment, and the proof is in the pudding. The only way to know for sure that it's truly safe is to watch from a distance for a good long while.
I was totally alone when I did it. W still lived at home but had totally emotionally disengaged from me years earlier. If you still desire closeness with him, I would talk to a counselor who specializes in helping males with this problem (there are those out there) how you can show him compassion and support from a distance to provide him with some concrete hope (assuming he wants it and is open to it) while not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
He should have to do the work, and you should be able to see evidence of it over a significant period of time. And if he has the right attitude, he will be repentant for his previous behavior and will be happy to do that for you.
I don't subscribe to the belief that people need to become perfect to be in an R. That's what life is for- growth. I intend to follow your steps someday tl2. I just don't believe STBX should've destroyed our family because I hadn't gotten that far yet.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, zues. But when you say "because I hadn't gotten that far yet". That YET is the key.
I actually think physical separation when there is an intense angry outburst, even if it is the first one, is often warranted because it is a sliding scale, a continuum, and just like any addiction, the more it's done, the more it's likely to be done again, and the more likely the intensity will increase over time.
We have to look at it from the perspective of the recipient. I am a big muscular guy, former athlete (not pro like you) but big and strong. My wife is a cute little 5'1" little lady. All I saw was me expressing my hurt at what she did to me, and her trying to ignore me for doing it. What she saw was a much bigger, stronger man acting in a manner she perceived as intimidating and threatening.
The way I see it, as the bigger, stronger person as well as being the man, I should be using everything in my toolbox to create a soft, loving space for her where she feels protected and loved. And I have to do that even if she doesn't want to be in it right now.
Zues, two points here. One, there's a vast gulf between perfect and screaming and throwing things for two hours. Not throwing the remote. Throwing things and screaming for two hours, while your kid is listening to it all. No one is saying that her Girl's H needs to be perfect for her to reconcile with him, but the second time my kid is cowering in terror, I'd make sure there was no opportunity for a third. Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be damaging.
Second, Zues, you've come a long way, you've worked on you. And that was my point to Girl, that, yes, she needs to work on her, but her H needs to make some changes, too. And so far there's been no indication that he even recognizes that, much less is willing to do it.
Sometimes you are so black and white, Zues. Why does it have to be perfect or nothing? My M wasn't perfect, obviously. I would have stayed anyway. Sometimes the abuse threads make me extremely uncomfortable because they hit a little too close to home. I would have stayed anyway. He cheated on me. I would have stayed anyway. But when my kid is cowering behind a door, terrified, for the second time, that's a line that's been crossed for me. Everyone has a line, Zues, and it's usually substantially short of perfection.
Zues, two points here. One, there's a vast gulf between perfect and screaming and throwing things for two hours. Not throwing the remote. Throwing things and screaming for two hours, while your kid is listening to it all. No one is saying that her Girl's H needs to be perfect for her to reconcile with him, but the second time my kid is cowering in terror, I'd make sure there was no opportunity for a third. Abuse doesn't have to be physical to be damaging.
Second, Zues, you've come a long way, you've worked on you. And that was my point to Girl, that, yes, she needs to work on her, but her H needs to make some changes, too. And so far there's been no indication that he even recognizes that, much less is willing to do it.
Sometimes you are so black and white, Zues. Why does it have to be perfect or nothing? My M wasn't perfect, obviously. I would have stayed anyway. Sometimes the abuse threads make me extremely uncomfortable because they hit a little too close to home. I would have stayed anyway. He cheated on me. I would have stayed anyway. But when my kid is cowering behind a door, terrified, for the second time, that's a line that's been crossed for me. Everyone has a line, Zues, and it's usually substantially short of perfection.
Very good points Sunny. I appreciate you elaborating. And also for recognizing that I have been doing what I can to grow a bit. I know I'm not the same person I was in the M.
And you're right. Two hours is a long time. If I exploded it was more like two minutes. That is a big difference. Not that two minutes is admirable.
I think I just get fatigued because my underlying belief is this: There isn't a M in this country that both parties couldn't, if they chose, make an iron clad case to their family and friends that their spouse was a monster and they had to file D for their self preservation. In the old days this was physical abuse only. Then alcoholism. Then emotional abuse. Then neglect. Lack of intimacy. Growing different directions. Irreconcilable differences. And on in on.
The way I see it is this- yes, in a marriage you will be hurt, neglected, abused, trodden on at times, your personal freedoms will be compromised, and you will go through stuff that no one 'should' have to. But that's part of being M. As are some wonderful times and a life long partnership in which you trust each other to stay through those times and grow and change and evolve. The notion that through personal growth there's a way to attain the fruits of a M without the strife, and that no one should put up with any pain...well, I don't agree.
It threatens me personally because I don't think I'll ever meet anyone's standards as it seems everyone these days subscribes to this attitude. And I feel the pain of the countless millions watching their families be destroyed by this outlook while still subscribing to it themselves and not realizing it.
Again, I see the gap between 'not putting up with any pain' vs. 'not putting up with abuse'. But if I seem black and white it may be because it all looks odd to me. I wouldn't leave a M unless I truly felt threatened, like my spouse was going to poison me or something. Short of that I would grit my teeth and deal with it. Maybe in 5-10 years it would be different. If not I would have the peace of mind that I did what I feel is the right thing. Because I believe that M isn't about the life that it gets YOU, but the opportunity to love and serve your spouse the way you love God. That's what God asked from us, and in the 'marriage expectations' series (youtube) Andy explains this in great detail. I think he's spot on. And you know my M was bad- 6 months of not talking at a time, years of no ML, deep pain, etc.
So this is my way of explaining why I'm so black and white. To me you don't leave a M no matter what. Everyone debating on the shades of grey on when it's appropriate to walk is confusing to me because it truly is black and white.
But maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe it's good that people walk from M's because it forces us to grow. Maybe a series of 5-10 year relationships and broken families if it triggers growth is better than a life long partnership with borderline abuse. Maybe I've got my own feelings of insufficiency that trigger fear of abandonment, and I am just too personally threatened by talk of leaving anyone ever. Maybe I'm just super expansive and crazy and can't see the world like others. I don't know. At the end of the day though I can challenge my thinking and try to learn and grow. The notion of unconditional marriage is a hard one for me to let go of though.
Thanks for talking SB. Updates on my thread later, hope to catch up with you soon
PS- why do I have to either be black and white or NOT black and white? Can't I be just a little black and white? Why does being black and white or not have to be such a black and white topic...(and the headache starts...it's not easy being zues)
I'm not disagreeing with you here, zues. But when you say "because I hadn't gotten that far yet". That YET is the key.
I actually think physical separation when there is an intense angry outburst, even if it is the first one, is often warranted because it is a sliding scale, a continuum, and just like any addiction, the more it's done, the more it's likely to be done again, and the more likely the intensity will increase over time.
We have to look at it from the perspective of the recipient. I am a big muscular guy, former athlete (not pro like you) but big and strong. My wife is a cute little 5'1" little lady. All I saw was me expressing my hurt at what she did to me, and her trying to ignore me for doing it. What she saw was a much bigger, stronger man acting in a manner she perceived as intimidating and threatening.
The way I see it, as the bigger, stronger person as well as being the man, I should be using everything in my toolbox to create a soft, loving space for her where she feels protected and loved. And I have to do that even if she doesn't want to be in it right now.
Oh, I meant "I haven't gotten that far yet" in the sense that I hadn't overcome all of my anger tendencies yet. Not in the sense that I hadn't caused physical violence or more damage yet. That will NEVER happen.
We can agree to see differently on this, I just wanted to share my opinion. My opinion is this: Your spouse should be as important to you as your son or daughter.
This isn't just anger, this is for all things. All the reasons people give to leave their spouse. "My H was depressed, I couldn't live with him. He wasn't emotionally available. He got so angry. He drank all the time. He didn't hold a job." Etc.
If your son was depressed, would you kick him out? If your daughter was 'emotionally abusive', would you kick her out? Of course not. You'd get through and do your best to be a leader.
For example STBX left me citing I had 'mental health issues'. She's diagnosed me with 100 different disorders. Yet she does the same for my son and gets him counselors, works with him, and tries to help him grow through these challenges (which in my opinion she is responsible for much of!). This is what I'm talking about.
Now, there are lines that are crossed. If your son is stealing from you, doing drugs in the house, and flying off in violent rages...yes, at that point even your son would have to go. But I believe that the standard should be no different for your spouse than your child (or similar at least).
In 95%+ of the cases I see on the DB forums the WAS left for reasons that they NEVER would have kicked a child out of their home for. What's scarier to me is that the majority of the LBS's themselves still site their spouses flaws as reasons they wouldn't go back to the M without changes. Yes, I want a better M too. But I simply don't believe in D any more than I believe in leaving a baby in a dumpster because that's not what you want in your life right now.
Yes, there are shades of grey. Raising your voice once in ten years is different than multiple times a day. Losing your cool for 2 seconds, vs. 2 minutes, vs. 2 hours is vastly different. And despite the fact that verbal abuse is very destructive, there are definitely some big lines crossed when physical violence is introduced (even if emotional is as destructive it is less obvious to recognize).
Unfortunately it seems like too often those that are dealing with abuse don't recognize it and deal with it. And those that are simply WAS's play the abuse card to justify their decisions when (as I feel in my case) I am just a normal guy that has imperfect moments, while never using foul language, posing any threat, using fear in a controlling way, and that avoids any escalations for years at a time.
Again, everyone gets to draw their own line. This is mine. I feel I'm on the outskirts of the norm so I'm not looking for agreement. Just sharing and discussing. Thanks gang.
And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.
Girlonf, this concerns me a great deal. I probably would be asking for a restraining order instead of trying to reconcile. You say that outburst #2, was far more violent than outburst #1. What happens with #3? Please be very careful, for the sake of yourself, and most importantly, for the sake of your child. Your child's safety is more important than your M. Your H has a lot of work to do, and it has nothing to do with you. So continue with your path, fix what needs to be fixed in you, but realize that you can't fix your H, he has to do that.
Thanks SunnyB for your input. Yes, I have put in place one. Which was what made XH and his family so made with me. XH is still very mad with me over this and tells me that the sight of me reminds him of his outbursts.
I agree with you that my kid's safety is more important than my marriage, and I do approach reconciliation with caution. XH is undergoing mandatory counselling. I am willing to consider reconciliation as the outbursts are not frequent- 2 in 10 years. And I realise that they are the result of our SSM and XH's tendency to bottle up his feelings.
And he says that he bottles up his feelings because he is wary of my critical reactions. He doesn't like it when I don't look happy and when I argue with him without letting him say when he has to say. I also have to admit that I have one hell of a Biatchy Resting Face as he is not the only one to tell me that. We have a lot of work to do if we ever want to get back together again.
Thanks Cadet for the suggestion, am plowing through the pursuit and distance thread now.
Hi Sotto,
I have read read DR. I do realise that XH has a lot of issues to work through. Cadet's list is really useful and I am still in the midst of plowing through some of the threads which I have not read, especially the abuse one. I have read quite a few but I guess I need a refresher course as there are so many concepts to wrap my head around.
XH is at the stage where he realises that what he had done was scary. However, he still feels that I am the one responsible for his outbursts. He says that he has forgiven me for causing his outburst but he still tells me that the sight of me reminds of what he has done, and he gets angry with me because of that. The counsellor I am seeing for his outburst tells me this is a small step in acknowledgement, but XH is definitely not at the point where he assumes full responsibility for his actions yet.
While I totally do not condone his actions and I know that I am not responsible for his outbursts, I do realise that our dysfunctional communciation would have added to his stress.
His outbursts are rather infrequent- 2 in 10 years. For us to be able to work again, we will really have to change our communication methods. I guess talking to you ppl has sort of clarified what are some of the things that must be in place for me to even want a reconciliation.
Hi Zues,
He has never laid hands on me or my child, or I would have absolutely gone the darkest of dark on him and imposed a permanent NC. Which is why I am in a dilemma.
Although he has never laid hands on me, he has definitely gone on a rampage throughout the house, breaking things that are in his path. He has snapped beyond reason and do things like bang his head on the wall, table etc while I tried desperately to restrain. He has also screamed and ranted uncontrollably. I tried to protect and calm down my kid who was cowering behind the door and let me tell you, my kid was so terried, she couldn't even cry. And for a mother, to see your child like that, it really is the most heartwrenching scene ever. And I don't ever want to see that again.
When I tried to console my kid, he demanded that I remain in the path of his anger so that I could witness his thrashing of stuff and his ranting. I tried to close the door shut but he pushed it open. In the end, I had to leave my cowering and shivering kid alone in the room, just so that I could close the room door and she didn't have to witness any more of the rampage. And his last rampage lasted more than 1 hour, and was loud enough for the whole estate (granted that we live in a rather small estate).
This is really painful for me, and as I type this, I can still hear the screams and the crashing and I can still see my kid cowering. I still get sick to my stomach and I still can't stop the tears from flowing. Do I get PTSD? Yes, when I hear loud and sudden sounds, I jump out of my skin, even when I am driving.
He is not physically violent. But he snaps, and I cannot mindread. And I am terrified of his next episode, especially when it seems that there are so many things that I can do to make him angry without even me realising anything.
Did he mean to hurt my kid? I don't think he intentionally did. And that is what is scary. The fact that his emotions override his intentions and he can't seem to do anything about it.
Hi Azzwork,
You bet I am.
I am not quite sure how I have managed to lose 20 pounds with all those humble pies that I have been guzzling down by the dozens, but humble pies have been a big part of my daily diet. Humble pies aren't really my favourite now, but I realise that I am not quite done with them yet. :P
I am not quite there yet, but I am definitely working on my Biatchy Resting Face, and my aloof/stern/critical approach.
I will add I've had a better R with my kids than ever. YET- 9 months ago I lost my temper. S and D were fighting, and I lost my cool. Son locked himself in the bedroom. I forced the door open with my shoulder. He was scared. I was yelling.
I cooled down quickly. We talked through it. I acknowledged that I was human and that while this wasn't the way I should act, I couldn't promise never to do it again. But I DID promise that I would never hurt him. We talked about it. He has his own challenges.
And you know what? We have a great R. He loves me, I love him, we can get upset now and then and it's ok.
And you know what else? My D was 10 times more angry than I was. He didn't beat me, but he did believe in spanking, and did that in a rage a few times. I WAS scared of my dad - ***WHEN HE WAS MAD***. But I loved him, never thought anything of it, and you know what? I have a GREAT relationship with him.
To me this reaction is just a sign that M isn't possible anymore. Everyone deserves better.
Agree with you that the XH probably deserved a better 'Me' too.
But Zues, the diff btw you and XH is that you calm down pretty fast, and you acknowledge that there are better ways to interact. You don't pin the blame on others. XH gets angry at the fact that other ppl make him angry and lose his temper... And he can get annoyed at quite a bit of things.
Folks, sorry if my responses are super delayed as I am in a totally different time zone and my posts are moderated. Going out for a meal and will be popping back right soon.
But thanks so much for all your input!
Hi Azzwork,
You bet I am.
I am not quite sure how I have managed to lose 20 pounds with all those humble pies that I have been guzzling down by the dozens, but humble pies have been a big part of my daily diet. Humble pies aren't really my favourite now, but I realise that I am not quite done with them yet. :P
I am not quite there yet, but I am definitely working on my Biatchy Resting Face, and my aloof/stern/critical approach.
Im glad to hear this. Im not an expert on what your husband is going through, but I have been around long enough to help you work on you. Im not saying that you are 100% responsible, but you ARE 50% of the reason that the M failed. Even if you dont repair THIS marriage, you still have a lot of life left and will likely get into another R (whether its with your H or not); the skills that you learn now can help make that one even better!
Im glad to hear that you are working on some of your own issues. What kinds of things are you doing to change your approach? (if I may be so nosy).
And dont worry about the delay. Theres nothing but time around here
TL2, I was very touched reading your post. You sound like you've come a long way. I wish my XH can read your post, but of course he will not and he should not. Your sitch sounds very similar to my sitch.
One of the reasons why I had become emotionally detached from the marriage a few years ago was that I couldn't deal with his emotional detachment and his anger. But the irony is that before his latest outburst, I really thought that things were getting better as I could see the effort he was putting in. Which was why I really couldn't understand the reason for his outburst. And I was scared and confused.
Anything triggered your AHA moment?
Complicating the matter further is the presence of the OW. XH says that he only started with her after I served the papers. But I also know that they were planning to get married right after the divorce.She was willing to give him another kid, even though she already has 2 of her own, and isn't really very young anymore. I later realised that that was why he didn't agree to an abatement although he knew that there many things on my plate at the same time and I needed to breather.
There is no need for XH to change. He has options. And that option, plus some of his family, has always assured him that he is not the violent person I said he is. Now, I have never said that he is violent person. I separated the man from his actions and knew that he and I needed help in the dynamics of our relationship.
XH has confided in the OW every damn thing about our marriage, including the restraining order. And the OW tells him that he is not like that. Hello???? She was in the background when he was screaming at me and comparing me to prostitutes (for the record, I came out worse) and she told him that he is a gentle person.
With pple like these around him, there is no impetus for him to ever want to change.
With pple like these around him, there is no impetus for him to ever want to change.
You mean to change quickly.
Change will come given enough time.
Most affairs burn out.
We have to look at it from the perspective of the recipient. I am a big muscular guy, former athlete (not pro like you) but big and strong. My wife is a cute little 5'1" little lady. All I saw was me expressing my hurt at what she did to me, and her trying to ignore me for doing it. What she saw was a much bigger, stronger man acting in a manner she perceived as intimidating and threatening.
The way I see it, as the bigger, stronger person as well as being the man, I should be using everything in my toolbox to create a soft, loving space for her where she feels protected and loved. And I have to do that even if she doesn't want to be in it right now.
tl2, I think you've captured the gist of my sitch.
I commend you for the effort you've put in because when I compare your sitch to mine, I realise that you have really really done a lot of painful self-reflection to be where you are now. I really wish your wife will be able to see the effort that you're putting in.
I am also about your wife's height, and what you are describing is exactly what I felt. My XH is taller and bigger than me, and the fear that he might just cross the line is there. I know that when he's normal and not angry, he's not a bad guy. But when he snaps, I don't know how close to the line he is going to be, or if he is going to cross it.
And it's the eyes. When he snaps, I can see it in his eyes that he's gone beyond a place where reason or anyone else can reach him.
There is no need for XH to change.
Ive read on here many times, that being in an affair is very similar to being on drugs. The same "pleasure centers" in the brain are activated. The same responses to "help". And so on.
While someone is getting high regularly, what happens to the concerned people that try to help? They get shut out. They get abandoned. They become the ENEMY. Right now, thats YOU. There is nothing you can do to change him.
But. That doesnt mean that he has no reason to change. Eventually, the high runs out. Eventually, he will hit bottom. The real question is how much damage is he going to do on the way down? And will you still be there to pick him up?
As Cadet said, time.....time.....
Girlonf, let me ask you a hard question. Why do you want to R with your H? Beyond "I love him," because sometimes that's not enough. Is he kind and caring? A good father? A good provider? What is it about him that makes you want to be with him, to salvage this? Are there other things involved? Embarrassment? Fear? A sense of failure?
No one is perfect, not you, not me, not my STBX, not your H. But I look at your sich and see a man prone to violent outbursts, who blames you for causing them, who calls you a prostitute, who scares the bejeebers out of your child, and I wonder why you don't just cut and run. I'm not saying you should, mind you, this is a marriage saving site and I firmly believe in marriage and overcoming difficulties. I'm just wondering what's there that's worth saving.
Why did you marry him? There were good things. Tell me what they were.
Hi Azzwork,
Other than the humble pies, I have also been taking a lot of chill pills. After the D/ 2nd outburst/ OW, I realised that things probably may not get much worse. I have become pessimistic optimist? Or optimistic pessimist?
I realised that I really must start following Michele's advice of treating your family with the respect that you would treat a stranger with. Not quite what I grew up with (we've got v loud voices on both sides of the family), but it's never too late to change, is it?
On the GAL front, I have been really busy. I have been taking care of my fitness, my health, changing my wardrobe (had to cos of my weight loss), going to church, reading, going to the movies, hanging out with my girlfriends, learning new hobbies etc etc.
Every day, I do a mental and emotional review of the day and see what it is that I could have done better. I am more aware of my interactions with those around me; I realise that their perceptions of me and my actions can be very different from my own.
And every day and night, the serenity prayer...
zues, I can see your point about the spouse being as important as the kids in a marriage. Which I don't disagree with. But when it comes to safety, I will definitely have to put my kid's safety before my spouse. My spouse is perfectly capable of protecting himself, whether he snaps or not. My kid has only me for protection.
My XH is not a bad person. Trust me, I was in a lot of pain before I made the decision to file, and I still am in pain. I can only hope that the pain will eventually fade with time. On the one hand, I know that XH is not a bad person. Not perfect definitely, but he was not a bad man doing a bad thing. But a good man doing a bad thing can be as dangerous as a bad man doing a bad thing, if the good man doesn't ever realise what he's doing.
With pple like these around him, there is no impetus for him to ever want to change.
You mean to change quickly.
Change will come given enough time.
Most affairs burn out.
There seems to be trouble in paradise. It appears that OW has given him pressure/ ultimatums too.
But OW knows everything that I have done wrong in the marriage, and she is a smart woman. Me, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and put my foot in mouth. All the wrong body parts at all the wrong places!
I don't dare to harbour any hope about him changing. It seems that after the first outburst, nothing has changed. For me, I tried to do everything by myself so that I won't have to bother him but turns out that that didn't work too. For him to want to change, he has to realise that the grass isn't greener on the other side, and that his part of the communication dynamics has to change as well.
Just recently, XH, kid and I were having dinner together. Kid was playing around with and not finishing the food on the plate. I chided Kid, " Hey you cheaterbug, I saw that! You pushed the food around to make it seem like you've eaten more than what you had."
XH tensed and for a moment, I froze, before I realised what part of the conversation he was reacting to. It was an "Oh Cr@p!" moment but thank goodness we were in public.
So here's the reality now, not only is he angry with me for provoking him, he is also angry with me for causing the affair. And it's unintentional things/comments like that annoys him. He allows them to fester in him before he blows up.
For the M to work the second time round, we really have to find ways not to have to walk on eggshells around each other.
yes Azzwork, I have realised very early on that there really is nothing I can do to help him. There is nothing now that I can do for the exM but to wait for him to pick up the rope.
But the problem now is I am second-guessing myself. By now, I am feeling rather tired. At the risk of sounding annoying, I am starting to wonder what it is that I want for myself at this point.
Prior to the D, I tried my best to do what I could for a second chance for the M. Because I am stubborn that way. Which was one of his major complaints. Ha! The irony didn't escape me, but it did escape him.
Which leads me to Sunny's question....
Hi Sunny, tough question. You're not the only one who has been asking me this. My C has been asking me this as well, even though she is pro-marriage.
For the record, I can't really say that there is a lot, if any love, left. But there are some feelings left about the M, and even then, they seem to be running out.
XH has the tendency to mouth off the meanest things when he's angry. Btw the two of us, I am the more verbal one, and it seems that this is one of the tactics he resorts to when he feels aggrieved. He really knows what to say to hurt me. Then again, I can give it back to him as well, although I don't make personal attacks like that.
I guess when we decided to marry, we were still high on the euphoria of being in love. I opened up to him warts and all and he didn't run, so I thought he was a keeper. And while I knew that he could be impatient, there was no indication that he could snap like that.
Throughout the marriage, there were many times when I felt hurt by his reactions towards what I thought was part and parcel of life. He couldn't deal with the inconvenient parts in life, so I dealt with them as best as I could on my own.
In his own way, perhaps to the best that he could, he did try to make life easier for me as well. When we travelled with the extended family, he would suggest places that he knew that I liked. He would also suggest that I take my family out for trips as well. He was considerate towards my parents, and he chauffeured us around a lot.
I am a very light sleeper, and he avoided using the flush at night because the noisy plumbing would wake me up.
And I guess I didn't make this part clear. There are only 2 outbursts in our marriage. But, and this is a big but, the family has a tendency to walk on eggshells around XH.
We couldn't say anything remotely critical or comparative or XH would be unhappy. A conversation about someone else's promotion or new car/ house becomes a slight about his ability. A family member comments about his driving being jerky and someone else has to step in quickly to change the subject.
All these things can light his fuse. He won't go on a rampage but he will be amgry. The problem is you can't really tell when and what something would affect him and to what extent.
It's like the love bank concept. There are small, occasional deposits but the withdrawals are often huge.
And now, I can't decide if he is love banking me or throwing me crumbs. Or if I should even be considering any transactions with him at this point in time.
Hi Girl,
You asked if I had an AHA moment.
It wasn't a single moment but it was a specific period of time where I decided I just didn't want to be that guy anymore.
Amazingly, I had never acted that way with anyone else. In the past, if someone hurt me, I just took it, processed it, and moved on.
They say the first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one. I had to first admit that my W had done some wrongs, that I wasn't wrong to feel the way I did about it, but that only I was wrong in the way I chose to respond. And I had to acknowledge that I was indeed making a CHOICE about how to respond.
Once I got to that point, change was a little easier...still challenging, but now I had clarity and strong motivation, knew what to do...but it was a long time getting to that point.
When you're drunk on anger, you stop thinking and acting rationally and simply react to pleasure/pain...mainly pain. Not much better than an animal, and certainly not fully human.
Girl,
You said there have only been 2 outbursts. Well as a former anger addict I can say that I've seen how a single outburst completely changes the dynamic, and especially a woman's sense of comfort and trust. I didn't have constant outbursts, but after the first one she was already distancing herself. And that undercurrent of anger that I projected even if I didn't act upon kept the concern alive in her because I didn't address it and solve the problem head-on myself.
Believe me, if he truly makes a change, it will be impossible to miss.
Is it fear or embarrassment?
No. I am very comfortable with my own company and I have my beloved kiddo. I have pretty much developed a thick hide after all that I have gone through.
Is he a good provider?
I am financially independent and our contribution to the household expenses is about the same. There is a slight slide in the standard of living though.
I suppose I am hanging on because I really thought that if we could work things through, the M could become stronger and better. But I am starting to wonder if I should.
And assuming that I am crazy enough to still want to hang on, what are the things I should be looking out for? Do I look out for small steps and slowly increase my interactions with him? Or there really is no point unless he offers to cut off the OW totally and I should just cut him off totally until then? And offers to continue with the IC beyond what is necessary?
tl2,
Thanks for your replies. It's pretty hard to see his changes now that we're not living together anymore.
But I suppose he must see what it is that he has to change and take the responsibility for his own actions. I guess it'll be a case of I'll know it when I see it.
That recent 'cheaterbug' incident just shows how he is not there yet.
Hi Girl,
If by 'what things should I be looking for' you mean in terms of whether he has learned to control his anger, I don't know how much of this applies to everyone and how much applies to me only. I can tell you how it was for me:
1. My outbursts were also infrequent, but like I mentioned previously, there was also the undercurrent. Let's say I ended up raising my voice and being aggressive and loud (and thereby threatening and intimidating) every 4 months. I realized at least that long would have to pass before I even got her attention and made her think it was possible I had changed.
2. From her side...I think it took between 6 months and a year for it to start to sink in for her that this was a real change and a new habit, and not just temporary damage control done out of a sense of panic on my side over possibly losing her.
3. After a year or so, my kids also started to remark that I seemed a lot calmer and less tense all the time, more easygoing like I used to be. Easier to approach and talk to. I think that made a difference for her.
4. I eventually, slowly started doing more special things for her and trying to be closer and more affectionate (without chastising her for not initiating) once I felt like she was a bit more open to that.
So that part has gotten better. The other problems in our marriage, some of which have been instigated by her behavior, remain unsolved by her choice.
At some point I had to step back from things, tell her I'll support her if she wants to make progress. And I had to just keep reminding myself, "Not my circus, not my monkeys."
Girl,
You wrote: It's pretty hard to see his changes now that we're not living together anymore.
Still all about time and temperature. If he makes overtures to you you can still check his demeanor when he does so...is he clearly giving you space and respectful of your concern and need to protect yourself emotionally? I would think he would demonstrate that or maybe even address it directly without getting upset that you don't take his word for it.
When the time seems right, you could also maybe ask him a question like, "Looking back, what do you think about the temper tantrums and my concern about them?"
I would think the response someone would want would demonstrate contrition/remorse/regret, total acceptance of responsibility, total acknolwedgement of how destructive/hurtful/unacceptable it is for an adult much more a husband and father.
Pres. Reagan used to say, "Trust, but verify". For myself I realized that I needed to verify with my actions before there was any possibility of my wife trusting me with her feelings again. Even though it seems like she has chosen not to, it was totally worth it even though I haven't gotten the response from her that I want.
tl2, sound advice. The closest he had ever got to conceding his responsibility for his outburst was when he acknowledged that I had the right to be hurt by his outburst.
And when I suggested that he stopped the counselling since he didn't think it was helping him, he blanched.
Overtures wise, he hasn't been keeping his distance away from me. It used to be that he would refuse to sit opposite me when we went out for dinners. Now, he would make an effort not to get away from me and he will actually look me in the eye and initiate conversations.
I don't think that he will be falling over himself 'to get into my good books' soon. Because he feels that I have to prove to him that I am worth going back to!
I need to be better at this detaching thing. I really need to feel that either way, I am going to be fine.
tl2, I don't know if it's applicable to your sitch. But I know that it is applicable to mine, if only I can get my heart to listen to my head.
I realise that I tend to get a better bargain when I am prepared to walk away from a deal that doesn't meet my requirements. And I can only do that when I am not affected by what I feel I want, and make my decision based on what I know I need and can live with. Doesn't work all of the time, but it does work most of the time.
My attitude is that I'm open to her if she becomes open and willing for us to go get the professional help we would need to get moving again. My thinking is that I made a commitment to support her and do what is required, and will do that if she wants, and will remain married and give her space until she completes the D proceedings or, by some off-chance, decides to return.
With no contact, it's actually gotten easier for me to detach and try to prepare for the D while still remaining open to her if she decides to open up a bit.
I believe that going on a tirade twice in a decade isn't ideal, but it isn't that unusual. I think OW is right. He is probably a gentle man, one who's needs weren't being met, one who was pushed to his breaking point. Instead of walking away he tried to communicate his pain. When he couldn't take it anymore and he tried screaming, trying to have his voice heard.
If I knew that I could reinstate my M but that my spouse hadn't changed and they would go on 5 more tirades in the remainder of our years together, I wouldn't walk. Even if that spouse didn't take ownership or change. Just because no one is perfect.
If I knew that I had contributed to the hardship, and that my H felt like a dog that was caged, starved, and beaten, and that he was actually a good animal mistreated until he acted like a bad animal, I would learn to treat him better to see if MY change could result in HIM changing, without HIM having to do anything. And I wouldn't label something as abuse that was responding to an environment I contributed to.
I believe in remaining committed to the M because you vowed to, because that's what M is about. Not dependent on how you feel about it, or what's in it for you. But when you remain committed to serving your partner, and find ways to make yourself better, lo and behold there may be a reward for you as well.
I think all this talk of him needing to change before you could continue an M with him is new age mumbo jumbo that is the reason why no one is M anymore.
The entire DB principle is changing the dynamic by changing yourself, not working on yourself a little and then demanding that your partner does the same to meet your new and improved standards. That's just more control, expectations, and criticism.
Treat him like he's good enough, take care of him, hear him, honor him, accept him, respect him, meet his basic needs, and you won't have to worry about what happens next time he feels mistreated/neglected/disrespected, because he won't. Oh, and if you truly do this my guess is that he'll grow with time anyway, particularly if you LEAD. In which case it would be tragic to throw away a lifelong partnership because of a snapshot in time anyway.
And I wouldn't label something as abuse that was responding to an environment I contributed to.
Wait a minute, Zues. Yes, Girlonfr contributed to the down fall of her M. Maybe her H was frustrated, didn't feel heard. Regrettable for sure, and something for her to work on. But did she cause a two hour tantrum that left a child cowering in terror? No. She did not. There is no excuse for that behavior, whatsoever. What if H had actually hit her? What if he hit the child? What if he smashed the car with a bat, set the house on fire, put a rock through the window, took a rifle into the mall? All these things are out of bounds, and just because Girlonfr contributed to the argument, contributed to the frustration, contributed to the feeling of not being heard doesn't justify his actions. This wasn't a two minute outburst, this was a two hour assault. There has to be a line somewhere, Zues. I'm sincerely asking what's your line? For me, her H crossed it. Clearly not for you, and that's fine. Where's your line? I really want to know, because this is fascinating to me.
I have to agree with the girls here. The tirades scare women. They scare kids. They aren't something that people should become normalized or accustomed to. They are immature at best. And they produce an undercurrent of instability and tension in every relationship.
The guy doing it feels better afterword. It's a release. But it's not a healthy one. The wife and kids only feel fear from the person they should always trust to protect them.
A man should be a man and always protect, speak firmly but softly, and be strong but gentle in all things.
The wife and kids only feel fear from the person they should always trust to protect them.
A man should be a man and always protect, speak firmly but softly, and be strong but gentle in all things.
Very well said, TL.
Tirades scare kids. Divorce tears apart their family unilateral for the rest of their lives. Besides, if this is really about the kids what's the alternative? Take them away from the dad 100% of the time? Good luck getting that through the courts based on this. My L made it clear to me that to take a child away from their parent things have to be pretty iron clad dangerous. So then what, they are with their dad 50% of the time anyway. The only difference is he's with another woman, not their mom, who won't feel as protective towards the kids.
Again, I promise my dad was 5 times more aggressive and angry than this man. I PROMISE. We had a great relationship throughout my childhood and have an even closer one now. I don't know what my relationship would be with my mother if she asked him to leave over the things he did, and as I've said, it was far further the line. I mean recurring outbursts, moments when you'd be afraid something would escalate him, occasional spanking spontaneously and in anger, wild eyes, etc. To me that was trivial, yes, even as a kid. I knew he loved me. It was normal. I never was hurt where I had bruises, couldn't walk, or really ever felt more than a small stinging on my backside for a few seconds. And you know what? I don't spank my kids, but I do think this is getting way too PC and way to uptight. If you want to leave a good guy because he's not new aged enough, go right ahead. If we apply this same standard to every category no man could live up and women would be walking out of marriages at record levels and the D rate would be ridiculous. Oh wait, that's exactly what's going on.
Yes, I'm in the suck it up and make it work camp. Sunny, I would leave my M if I was scared for my physical safety. To clarify, this would mean that I think W is going to poison me, or she hit me with something BEYOND an open hand to the face or a rough push (for example if she took a pool cue and literally hit me with it repeatedly, or started throwing those pool balls at me which hurt!). Next would be adultery. I'm talking ongoing, I love him, he's the man I want in my life, I want you to leave...or "why can't I accept that I love you both and that I want you both in my life". Not ok.
Beyond that I don't remember anything in the marriage vows that detailed the hundreds of offences that we shouldn't have to put up with that would allow me to terminate our family and lifelong partnership if I'm no longer feeling loved. Yes, that means I'd stay in a marriage where I felt misunderstood, unappreciated, neglected, lonely, and even a bit 'emotionally abused'. Oh, and even if I never had sex for years. In fact, I DID. And the funny thing is maybe if people took divorce off the table as an option and realized the choices were to be M and unhappy or M and happy, maybe more people would choose to be M and happy. It would start to their self growth, which would improve the dynamics of the M, and maybe even inspire change in their partner, who will absolutely grow with time anyway.
But it's not just me. I had dinner with a good friend who is an avid Jehovah's Witness. He tells me there are three times in their religion when it's ok to get divorced: 1) Physical violence, 2) Adultery (at the betrayed spouses discretion), 3) financial protection (to make sure you can pass something to your children if your spouse is an addicted gambler). However you WEREN'T allowed to REMARRY unless your spouse had an actual affair while married to you. In the other cases you were expected to remain married in spirit, just not legally in name.
I talked to him about this situation, he was surprised as well as I was, he told me that his parents were fighting aggressive every week for a couple of years, then it smoothed out, and everything's been fine since. But he said it was nearly fist fighting once a week. Is this ideal? No. But he's glad he grew up with both parents, has a good relationship with both, and they are now happily married and have a long history together. Wow.
As shocked as you all are with what I'm saying, I'm equally shocked that on a forum dedicated to saving marriages that so many people are so quick to justify walking away. I get it. All of our marriages stank. That's the same reason they left. Either all of our WAS's were right because they could all say the same thing, or we need to walk the walk.
I could name so many LBS's that people think well of. Maybe even me before I wrote all of this. People think I'll be a good H someday. Well, I'm the same guy that my STBX kicked to the curb. I pressured her to do things sexually that she didn't want to do. I was critical of her. So she left. I would never dare say I am proud of those things, and I am grateful that I have grown a bit. But anyone that wants to say that she was right to destroy my family, well, no need to visit my thread and post. And frankly I think that is worse than what this man has done.
In closing, Marriage is a life long commitment that isn't to be ended. Once you make it conditional upon self determined standards in dozens of different categories such as porn use, alcohol use, emotional neglect, sex frequency, tone of voice, etc, you don't have a M, you have a fling that will last until our humanity is revealed because no one will measure up. Again, tell me a time when it's ok to throw a baby in a dumpster and I'll tell you when I feel it's ok to get divorced. Y'all don't have to feel it's that important, clearly if I want company I have to do some time travelling.
Zues, I too am old school. My dad was very soft-spoken. But I had years of coaches who whipped my ass into shape as quickly and as roughly as they had to to get me to produce the results they wanted. Personally, I loved it and always thrive in that environment, and I don't have a problem being tough on young men.
I don't think anyone's saying if things get a little bumpy then divorce is ok. But a man who acts in a threatening and unpredictable, destabilizing manner towards his wife and infant child also has to have some boundaries set for him since he is unwilling or not strong enough to set them for himself.
In such cases, I think separating with the W telling the H that she loves him and is not leaving him, but will not take any risk to be with him until he puts some better tools in his toolbox and demonstrates that he will use them.
The wife and kids only feel fear from the person they should always trust to protect them.
A man should be a man and always protect, speak firmly but softly, and be strong but gentle in all things.
Very well said, TL.
I agree as well. He "should" be. The question is how you handle it when it's not always the way it should be.
Parents "should" stay together too. Which "should" wins?
Zues, I too am old school. My dad was very soft-spoken. But I had years of coaches who whipped my ass into shape as quickly and as roughly as they had to to get me to produce the results they wanted. Personally, I loved it and always thrive in that environment, and I don't have a problem being tough on young men.
I don't think anyone's saying if things get a little bumpy then divorce is ok. But a man who acts in a threatening and unpredictable, destabilizing manner towards his wife and infant child also has to have some boundaries set for him since he is unwilling or not strong enough to set them for himself.
In such cases, I think separating with the W telling the H that she loves him and is not leaving him, but will not take any risk to be with him until he puts some better tools in his toolbox and demonstrates that he will use them.
Very well spoken, and I don't take issue with much of this. Ask Sunny, I tend to be very polarized.
The question is "what if the man never changes?" Does that separation become a divorce at that point?
I always ask what I would do if the other person never changed. Because we can't control them. Again, we all have our own interpretation of what 'destabilizing' means. And we all place a value on marriage. I guess I just feel divorce is more destabilizing than an unstable H.
I'm equally shocked that on a forum dedicated to saving marriages that so many people are so quick to justify walking away. I get it. All of our marriages stank. That's the same reason they left. Either all of our WAS's were right because they could all say the same thing, or we need to walk the walk.
But anyone that wants to say that she was right to destroy my family, well, no need to visit my thread and post.
There is no excuse for what the WAW does however they do what they FEEL needs to be done.
Kind of like a wounded animal thrashing around destroying everything in sight.
Petting this animal won't make it heal, or stop its destruction.
It needs to go off and be on its own and heal with no other distractions.
They are in fight or flight mode and nothing we do, can stop it.
We can only stay out of the way and be the best parents possible.
How long will that take?
Who knows?
So the best thing we can do for our children is to show them by our actions that we are strong and able to continue to live our life to the fullest.
I do think the LBS has the most power in all of this.
They get the final decision about all that happens.
If you have not yet gotten the final decision yet then the final decision has not yet been made.
Thinking out loud:
The old M has ended and good riddance! There is no way to go but onwards. I will not keep looking backwards; I will look forward.
Moving on, there is no reason to ever to want to R with XH if the dynamics of the old M do not change. And I will know that he is ready to R if he:
-takes responsibility for his outbursts and anger issues
-willingly continues with the C for anger management beyond what is mandated
-will offer to break off all contact with the OW
In the meantime, I will continue with GAL and move on with my life. I will go dim and detach; not possible for a total NC with kid.
Thank you, Cadet! That was what I needed. I was dithering because I was waiting for validation that what I was doing was correct. But I realised that no one else can make that decision for me.
I will now make the decision that I will move on and not be bitter. I have to show my kid that I am strong, that I do not have to bend over backwards to accommodate those who are hurting me. I have to show kid that one must have healthy boundaries in life.
Time is on my side and I will use it to help me heal.
And you are really spot-on with the analogy of a wounded animal thrashing about in pain. That is what XH reminds me of, and I really do feel sorry for him. When I don't feel the urge to icepick him, that is. He does what he does, and there really is no stopping him. Futile and a waste of energy, and it only ends up hurting me further.
Zues, I can feel your pain at your WAW. I understand, I really do. Despite the fact that I was the one who initiated the divorce, I was also the one who tried to give the M a second chance again. He was the one who didn't want to. In the end, I am the LBS, just like you.
I have never talked about this before, because it cuts to the core. XH demanded that I went ahead with the D or he would cut Kid out of his life. I was the one who pleaded with him to let Kid attend his mum's Birthday Party because Kid was looking forward to. I contacted his family even though I knew they were angry with me, because damn it, Kid wanted to feel like she still had a family, even if daddy was mad with mummy. And damn it again, I was not going to let her feel otherwise, even if I had to put my pride down.
XH used Kid against me. He threw me crumbs, ML to me, and then changed his mind about R. In the end, I granted him the divorce, just so that he can be with OW, and just so that Kid would have a father figure in her life. It may not make sense to you, but I would rather hurt myself than to have Kid lose a father. Who in the right mind would hand her spouse to the OW on a silver platter? But that was what I did, just so that I didn't have to drag Kid through an acrimonius divorce.
His L asked for supervised access once every two weeks. I didn't limit his access once I saw that he had calmed down. Since I wasn't going to stop him from getting together with the other woman, there was no reason why he would get mad with Kid.
I have never demanded that he changed. I knew who he was when I married. All that I have ever asked for what to change the way we communicated. I never said that I was perfect, and I didn't expect him to be.
If XH had had his rampages anywhere outside the house, he would have been arrested immediately. That was how bad his rampages were. And during the rampages,I had always warned him that I would not hesitate to call the police if he so much as laid a finger on me.
If his behaviour is not acceptable with strangers, or even at work, why should it be acceptable with his family?
Even when I was emotionally detached, I had never been unfaithful to XH. There were many opportunities and interested parties, and their attention was flattering, but no, I couldn't do it.
Even when I found out about his affair, which must have gone on for quite a few years, I was so tempted to do a tit for tat and I could have. But I just couldn't. Which is why I don't agree with the another sites view that everyone is predisposed to affairs; we may all be faced with temptations but not all will make the conscious decision to cross the line.
Is XH a gentle person? I know many gentle people around me. Gentle people do not go on rampages no matter how provoked they are. Of course they do get angry, who doesn't? But there is a fine line between angry and snapping.
Am I a gentle person? I have my temper too. But I know that however much the other person has been an arse, the onus is still on me to control my emotions.
That is not saying that XH is a bad person. He is not. Which is why even after the humiliation from the rampage, and from being compared to a prostitute in front of the OW, I was still considering R. My friends and family couldn't understand my decision and my efforts because they saw how much pain I was going through and how close I came to crumbling.
Despite all the hurt that I went through and am still going through, I realised that I would have hurt him as well, even if unintentionally.
He was the one who didn't hesitate cutting off Kid off from his life. He would rather have other people's kids than to have his own kid. Granted I would have caused him immense hurt, but what have our kid done to him?
XH and I, we are both flawed people. Maybe that was why i was drawn to him. I recognised this ache, this hole in him, and I wanted to help him. We have a lot of issues with our own families and with ourselves. But what Michele says is true, one can analyse the issues to death, but that will never help you move forward. You really just have to do it.
Even now, I feel odd at the thought of seeing other people. I am now legally and morally free to do so, but I just can't get into the dating scene too enthusiastically.
I know I have to heal first, and this is what I will do.
Thanks tl2 and Sunny! Really appreciate your perspectives.
Funny how I missed seeing your responses and only saw Zues and Cadet's posts.
Zues, you know what? I grew up in an angry environment. Unfortunately for me, I do not have a close relationship with my father.
I witnessed my father thrashing the house as well. Breaking the furniture, going on a rampage, and hitting my mum. It was terrifying. This is why I never sleep well at night. Because even when I was young, I had this need to make sure that I stayed awake to protect my mum. After all these years, I am still a very light sleeper.
This is also why I never had serious relationships until I met my XH. I was afraid that the men I met would hurt me. (The irony of it) I was afraid of opening up. I was afraid of being vulnerable because vulnerability meant fear. I pushed all those who were interested in me away, because somehow I never felt good enough. I was always afraid that I would end up like my mum.
So anger can scar, and it can scar someone permanently.
Zues, if I had read any of the books I had read now, I would have done things differently. But I didn't. And there is no point for me beating myself up over that because I can't turn back time.
I had actually wanted to try out separation, but I sought the wrong advice, and made the mistake of filing for a divorce, instead of a separation. However, I wonder if this point is moot, because XH's affair seems to have started way before this. In fact, sometimes I wonder if his outburst was a way to make me to file the divorce just so he didn't have to.
The OW is not young and she is running out of time. She is pressuring XH. When did the pressure begin?
When I was not running around like a headless chicken, crying, pursuing, and pleading, I was actually quite sane. Instinctively, I acknowledged where XH was coming from, and I actually told him that I acknowledged my faults and I was willing to change myself for the better.
But and this is the big but, I cannot be perfect, and I didn't want to lie that I could. OW could promise him perfection, and he decided to choose perfection.
Eureka moment. I just realised that somehow, I have placed a smiley face in all of my posts. I am definitely not as deep in the doldrums as I was when I first started, but I am definitely not as happy as smiley face yet.
Confused would be better.
Azzork's (?) list:
What I will like to keep:
My stubborness, when it comes to things that matter
My smile, when I do smile
My warped sense of humour
What I will like to change:
My impatience, the world will not end just because things do not go as fast I think they should
My pessimism, things will get better or at least they can't get much worse.
My aloof demeanor, I may not be as smiley as a dolphin, but I could do with more smiles
The dance of the emotional pursuer
Can't remember what's the 3rd part.
Improvements:
I have finally, finally stopped monitoring his presence on social media. I would always work myself into a frenzy when I saw that he was online, because it would remind me of OW's existence. And I kept our text exchanges so that I could read and reread them. I kept picking at my wounds and refusing to let them heal.
Since the divorce, I have stopped obsessing over whether he's with the OW, physically, or communicating through texts. I no longer have any right to expect him not to, and no longer have any reason to subject myself to this torture. Which is why I really admire forummers who can do the light and breezy thing with their WWS.
I expect that I will still move through the various stages of grief, but I know that I can still feel the pain and not be consumed by it.
I am going dimmer. And it seems that XH is going dimmer too.
I would imagine that the typical arc of this kind of story is that the spouse and the angry spouse remain together. The spouse continues to increase the emotional distance as the angry spouse continues either more outbursts or continues to foster an undercurrent that reminds the spouse he might go off at any time, who knows if that will be 10 mins or 10 years?
Since the psychs have found that intermittent, random reinforcement is the most powerful form of reinforcement, things are really tough.
The longer time goes on with less and less closeness, the more difficult to get back to where they need to be. Having been through it I know that it is extraordinarily difficult. Not impossible, of course. But difficult and complicated so that I would imagine most couple can't get there without help. I agree that D isn't the answer, certainly not the best answer, but having dealt now with someone who won't let me in and won't change her attitude and behavior towards me, I think I understand a little of the frustration the non-angry spouse feels with an angry one.
Also, and I only remembered this recently, I had a R with someone a few years before I was married, and she was the angry one. Not quite as spectacularly as I became years later, and I never lost my temper with her...but having thought about this I remember throwing a switch inside my head after a few of these outbursts. There were other problems too, to be sure, but I finally thought "screw this, life's too short".
Of course, being bigger and stronger and a fairly dominant kind of guy, I wasn't really afraid (though I started wondering if she was unbalanced and I might wake up missing some valuable appendages one day).
The problem in my sitch is that given my W's other issues, once she finally closed the door on me emotionally years ago she's not been willing to really open it back up again. While there have been no outbursts, there has been steady tension between us over it. After a while the 'formerly angry spouse' (me) ends up feeling emotionally abandoned by my W as well as incredible guilt and sadness over the damage done. I don't think the damage is irreparable, but I can only do so much without my W opening the door.
I worked really hard at showing her that it was ok to open the door but she never has. At this point, that's really all I can do. I don't agree with her decision to divorce so I'm doing the LRT and hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
If my W came to me and said she sees the progress and she's willing to do the work to open up and also to address her issues and behaviors, it would still be a long, hard road back to each other but it's an opportunity I'd dearly love to have.
tl2,
Sorry to see that your wife seems to be pretty set in her path. I can see that you are really dealing well with your sitch in a very calm and reassuring manner. At the end of the day, no matter what the outcome is, I am sure that you will come out of this a better person.
When I was in my mini MLC mode a few years ago, XH did make some attempts to reach out to me. But by that time, I was in quite a deep funk, and one leg into the "too little too late" mode. I could see his efforts, but I just couldn't feel them. This is probably what your wife is experiencing now.
If she ever snaps out of it, like I did, I can guarantee you that she will feel excruciating pain and remorse.
Thanks guys. This stopped being specific long ago.
Grl, in my mind you are a LBS. For all the reasons you said. I wasn't challenging you, only the reactions that I interpreted were advice that saying your H was unworthy to be in a marriage with you.
Tlr, I love your last post.
To all, I am not suggesting that anger isn't damaging or a problem. Only that divorce, too, is damaging and a problem. One that should be considered an act of destruction falling short only of murder. Something that should be read about in newspapers, not seen recurring in our lives. Something that should be considered a monstrosity, not a solution to an unresolved domestic challenge.
I read these exchanges to my best friend last night and he literally snorted when I read this. He agreed 100%. Said that he's had his eruptions and tirades where his W was probably very uncomfortable and a bit freaked, but that she knew he would never hurt her, and that she was easier on him than he was himself. Since then he's worked really hard on it, it was probably a few times in ten years. I don't think he's had any repeats in the last 2-3 years, and he's still working on it. But he agreed that this was pretty normal. Not ok. But normal.
I find it odd that 2/2 of the people I read these threads to agree with me, vs. 0 on the boards. Either I pick friends that are afraid of me, don't want to rock the boat, or are bad people, or the people that read the forums are just a different breed. Personally I think that the problem is that the word 'abuse' is such a trigger these days that once a woman uses it anyone that questions her is even worse than the abuser. Everyone is scared to say something about how this is getting carried away because then they'll be the next person lynched! Either way, I appreciate you guys hearing me out.
I think all of you are exceptional people, doing your best in a horrible sitch. Tlr, I hope someday your W both realizes you're a rare man, and that you deserve better every bit as much as she did. Grl, I hope you keep finding detachment and peace. Take care gang.
Zues, man, there are few roadmaps in life that show all the details. We all just have to do our best and always strive to do better. No harm, no foul, no judgement here as far as I'm concerned.
The future is unwritten.
Zues, I agree wholeheartedly regarding the "abuse" excuse. It's very similar to just tossing around the "racist" label. Your are presumed as guilty and have no way of defending yourself.
After a while the 'formerly angry spouse' (me) ends up feeling emotionally abandoned by my W as well as incredible guilt and sadness over the damage done. I don't think the damage is irreparable, but I can only do so much without my W opening the door.
I worked really hard at showing her that it was ok to open the door but she never has. At this point, that's really all I can do. I don't agree with her decision to divorce so I'm doing the LRT and hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
If my W came to me and said she sees the progress and she's willing to do the work to open up and also to address her issues and behaviors, it would still be a long, hard road back to each other but it's an opportunity I'd dearly love to have.
I hope you will be able to get this opportunity to work with your wife again. I am sure she notices the progress but perhaps, she doesn't feel them yet or want to feel them yet.
If the XH had been able to show your level of awareness, and if I had the right tools to work with in the M, I guess we would never have reached this stage.
I realised that I have got very used to the new lifestyle. Feels not bad being a swinging single again, though this time round, a swinging single with a cute as button kiddo.
I haven't had so much time for myself in years, which was perhaps why I went into a mini-MLC a few years ago. I was just too busy working, taking care of kiddo, and taking care of the house. I was too busy to take care of myself and the marriage. Lesson learnt.
Perhaps once I buy a house and get a permanent place to stay, I will feel even more settled. Small steps at a time, but I am walking forward to where I want to be.
I have managed to go through some of your old threads, Zues. And yes, I was always tempted to type your name as Zeus.
Thanks for your input, they are thought provoking and they offer an insight of how XH might feel about things. I would say that both of you do have some similar views.
Grl,
My new motto is, No more crying over spilled marriage.
I think I'm at a point where I am willing to reconcile if she initiates it and demonstrates a willingness to do the work. I'm also continuing down my road as well, and will continue to.
Talked with my IC today. He's DB friendly and is also good with where I'm at.
Holidays will be the first real test of my mettle I think!
Hi tl2,
The holidays will be a test of my mettle too! We used to go for long holidays with the extended family and kid is going to miss her cousins.
We will just have to think of ways to keep ourselves entertained. Positive thinking! We can make it!
Yesterday was another test of my mettle. XH picked kid up from school without informing me. I was in a state of panic when I went to pick kid up and kid was not there. The teacher informed me that XH had picked kid up.
The old me would have thrown a hissy fit. However, after I got over the panic, I realised that XH wouldn't mean kid any harm. What I did was to call the principal and reminded her again that there must be no unauthorised pick ups from school.
Texted the X and asked if kid was with him, and reminded him very civilly that he had to tell me when he was going to pick kid up and keep to the schedule as I had a great fright when I couldn't find kid. No apologies from X but he agreed to inform me like he was supposed to.
I think I must have another conversation about not using kid as the messenger. But that would have to wait another day. One battle at a time.
I was even able to face the X civilly when he dropped kid off later in the evening. Small steps...
I guess I am still a long way from being detached enough not to be knocked windless when he does marry the OW. I read in one of the threads that one way of detaching is to ask yourself if you would be interested in getting to know the X if you were both strangers now.
Honestly, the answer would be no.
So I guess, now all the DB techniques that I have learnt will be put to use into maintaining a cordial and civil relationship as a co-parent. Because we owe kid that much.
As Caliguy said in one of the threads, "Detach .. GAL.. 180-Rinse and Repeat".
was lurking around other threads and reading. And then I analysed my own situation and realised that there is a lot of truth in "believe in 50% of what they do, and none of what they say".
XH said that he didn't want to have anything to do with kid, but here he is now, seeing her every other day, and sometimes even more.
But I also understand that this may not always be the case and I am mentally preparing myself that this situation will definitely change if he marries the OW, and when kid moves into formal schooling next year.
I guess I have taken one step further along in my detachment journey as I no longer second-guess or triple-guess his actions and words.
Grl,
Sounds like you're doing pretty darn good.
A while back (years ago, really) I realized I was mourning for the marriage I wanted and not the marriage I actually was in. It's funny because we live in a small town and my W is very popular due to all of her church work. People constantly come up and tell me how wonderful they think she is. And to them, she is.
But of course they don't know the whole story.
It sounds to me like you're handling it well. I'm not so sure that you can't be detached and also feel it a bit if your XH marries someone else. I think detaching means detaching from our emotional dependence on our spouses...from our own addiction to them and the 'comfortable hell' we had both gotten used to, and pursuing them in an effort to put things back like they were before no matter the cost to ourselves and everyone involved.
tl2,
There are good days and bad days. It seems that the bad days came right after I had posted.
I was mourning for the marriage that I had actually wanted. To a very big extent, I am still mourning for the marriage I feel I could still make work.
Like you, I come from a small community. To make matters worse, XH, OW and I all work in the same profession. And people in the community don't know the whole story. XH doesn't look like a WH but I do look like a WW.
How do you feel when ppl come up to you and talk about your wife? Do they know your current situation?
The funny thing is I will feel more than just a bit if the XH marries the OW, and not so much, if he marries another woman. Perhaps I am vindictive.
That's why I say I am not quite there yet with the detachment.
Hi Grl,
Not many know our situation...but I don't know who she's told.
Most of the people in the community who know her think she's a totally wonderful human being. Always coming up to me and telling me how much they love her.
They think I'm kind of a quiet grouch LOL.
Just went to a mandatory counselling session for divorced parents with young kids. It was a really somber session and there was this guy who was clearly gutted by his divorce. I felt so much for him.
This other guy next to me was also quite emotional but not as gutted as the other guy.
Ironically, the other women in the room, including me, were all rather composed. I wonder if just by looking at our reactions, one could tell who the WAS were and who the LBS were.
The counsellor probably thought that I was the WAS, judging from some of the comments that he made.
Though I was rather composed during the session, and participated quite well, I fell into a funk after the session. I guess the scenarios in the video clip that they showed us cut too close to the core. And I started feeling very very bad for what kid is going through again.
tl2,
Can't imagine you as a quiet grouch.
But this is the thing isn't it? Different people see different sides of us. We almost always show the truest sides of us to our family and they aren't always the prettiest sides.
XH colleagues would never imagine that he is capable of AO, but hey, he really is. He shows one side to them and then he shows his family one side, and then kid and me another side. To his family, I look like the one who's prone to AO.
That is not to say that there isn't any truth to all his different facets.
I guess perhaps, that's how it is with your W? Perhaps she does believe in all the church work she has done, but she has somehow rationalised her actions at home? Maybe she needs this other side to keep herself sane, to distract her from whatever she's doing that's not in line with her religious beliefs?
I need some input here.
I am wondering if I should go back to joining XH and kid on their almost daily dinners. Things are really strange with us. Three months before the D, XH, kid and I were having dinners almost every day. That was the time when XH was still considering the idea of R.
2 months after the D, XH and kid are still having dinners almost every day. I stopped joining them after the D as I was really hurt by some of the things that took place during the D negotiations and I didn't want to run kid's time with XH.
The thing is, after I stopped joining them, XH texted that he had never asked me to stop joining them, and that he didn't say he didn't want to see me.
Since then, I have joined them about 3 times. The last 2 times, things were quite civil and I could see that XH was no longer putting the distance between us. Occasionally, he would even initiate conversation, something that I had always had to do on our dinners together.
So do I join them? I don't want kid to have the impression that there's a chance that we're getting back together. XH seems to be building bridges, and he keeps saying that I am burning them.
I know that I shouldn't consider getting back with XH if he doesn't work on his AO and doesn't cut off contact with the OW, but in the meantime, what should I do?
Do I ignore his efforts at building bridges?
Would really appreciate some input here. Thanks!
I try not to get enthusiastic over perceived positive responses on his side, but I wonder if I have been appearing to be unappreciative?
Hi Grl, if he is still in contact with OW, I wouldn't go down the family dinner route. You have just D and your XH is currently in a R with someone else. From a DB POV, I think the best plan is to forge ahead with your own life and your own plans.
If your H is trying to build bridges, you can be polite and not unpleasant. However, I think there is a boundary issue here. For me, the needed boundary is that of not meeting as a family whilst your H consorts with someone else. Yes, you will coparent constructively - but you won't have 'family time' like you did before.
If your H wants that, he's going to have to do more than this to build bridges IMHO...
Hope this helps, and don't be guilted into softening. He's in a R with someone else now, so he doesn't get to have his cake and eat it.
Hi Sotto,
thanks for your input! I have been wondering if the family dinners were a way for him to eat cake.
I guess I will just have to skip the family dinners. Until I hear something more definitive from H.
I don't really know how much contact he has with the OW but I suppose if he is serious about R, he would have to tell me that he's ready to cut off all contact woth her and prove it.
Until then, 'Detach, GAL, rinse and repeat.
Another step in GAL:
Have set a date to meet my real estate agent friend to ask about my options in housing.
I need to start asking about loans and stuff.
Will start looking around seriously end of the year and finalise the sale by june next year.
Grl, I got called out quite a bit for cake eating because I would do things like family dinners. And I don't regret it at all. Decide what you want to do based on what's best for your kid. If you want family dinner and it doesn't send you spinning, do it. Sotto's points are spot on, I don't disagree with her, but I'm just offering a different perspective. For me, it was 100% about my kids and this was what felt right to me.
Sunny,
Thanks for your input!
I agree with you and Sotto. I guess I just have to keep my hand on the dimmer switch and see what works best for me and kid.
Doing dinners every day would prob be too much, but I may put in some guest appearances. We'll see how it goes. For the present, am pretty comfortable with getting dimmer.
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